May 22, 1996                                      GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE


Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Wally Andersen, M.H.A. (Torngat Mountains) substitutes for Mr. Doug Oldford, M.H.A. (Trinity North).

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the Committee Room on the 5th. Floor of the East Block.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Wiseman): Order, please!

We can get started then. My name is Ralph Wiseman, I am the Chairperson of the Government Services Committee. Tonight we will review the estimates of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. So I want to welcome the Minister and his staff. Hopefully your stay here this evening will be pleasant and rewarding.

As I did last night, I will introduce my Vice-Chair who is Mr. Jack Byrne; and I will ask the other members to introduce themselves beginning with Mr. Smith.

MR. SMITH: Gerald Smith, the Member for Port au Port.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, the Member for Torngat, sitting in for Doug Oldford.

MR. FRENCH: Robert French, the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. SPARROW: Anthony Sparrow, the Member for Placentia and St. Mary's.

CHAIR: Thank you.

There are pretty well standard rules we have set down and practiced over the years. We have set time aside from 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. We will see what happens when ten o'clock comes. If we are finished before that, fine; hopefully we will.

We will have the minister, if she so desires, have opening remarks, to introduce your staff and take fifteen minutes to tell us about your department, if you so choose, or you may choose to go into questions.

The Vice-Chair will respond for fifteen minutes, and we will have the other MHAs ask questions for ten minutes; and we will interchange, back and forth.

Madam Minister, if you so desire, I would like for you to introduce your staff. Before you do, I want the people who are asking the questions and the people who are answering to identify themselves for recording purposes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the time, 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.: Is there a maximum of three hours allotted for each department for committee meetings?

CHAIR: Well, there are three hours allotted. If at 10:00 p.m. we need some time to finish up, we could go on until 10:30 p.m. If it is going to take longer we may look at rescheduling it for another time.

MR. J. BYRNE: So we can go into a second meeting, another three hours, if we so wish? I was under the impression, as somebody who has done it last year, that there are just three hours allotted and that is it. Right or wrong?

CHAIR: Well, we cannot very well say. We have allotted three hours, yes. There have been three hours allotted. But in a case where all of the questions have not been asked and all the answers not given, then we are certainly, as a Committee, going to look at what we should do. That will probably depend more on you than on me, Jack, since you are asking the questions.

Madam Minister, if you so desire.

MS BETTNEY: I will start by introducing, then, some of the officials who are here with me, who are the senior officials in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. The Deputy Minister, Clyde Granter, is sitting to my right; to his right is the Assistant Deputy Minister in area of Works and Services, George Greenland; and to my left is Terry McCarthy, the Assistant Deputy Minister for Transportation. To Terry's left is our budget person. Ramona Cole is the Director in the area of Finance.

All of these people have been involved in the development of the whole budget process, both from its early stages which preceded my involvement, and certainly Mr. Granter's involvement, through the whole revision process and development process that has taken place in the last two months, as well. I would anticipate here this evening that the questions you would ask, if I do not have the answers, I am sure that one of the officials who are here should be able to supply the information in the detailed fashion that you are looking for.

I say to you that in developing this budget during the time of my involvement has been a difficult process and a detailed process, to try and go back into our department and find the kinds of savings and efficiencies which were required of all ministers throughout all departments. To put that into a little bit of context for you, as the officials have informed me through the budget process, we are not starting this year to kind of do this process. There has been a major exercise for the last two years which involved some significant restructuring throughout the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. So there had been a fair bit of work done prior to this budget exercise to streamline the work of the department, and, in fact, considerable downsizing has taken place throughout the department, and also a regionalization has taken place throughout the department over the past couple of years.

In looking at the exercise this year, we really had to approach it from the perspective of what were the things that, as a government, we needed this department to be able to perform, and what resources did we absolutely have to have in order to maintain those key and vital functions. I think we have managed to do that, but I would say that upfront so that everybody can recognize that there are things we have had to let go of, there are things we are not funding to the extent they have been funded in the past. It is simply a question of choices, and of trying to ensure that when we use the resources we have at our disposal that we are using them on what we consider to be the most essential functions and the things which people throughout the Province need the most.

Just a couple of highlights and then I will just leave it at that for questions. I think it is clear through the Budget Speech, and the information you have been provided with, that there have been a few areas where we have focused. The Trans-Labrador Highway certainly is an area of priority for government, and it is reflected in the allocation of funds that we have put into the Trans-Labrador Highway with $8 million being provided there.

The whole area of roads and transportation, as I've learned in two months, tends to be an area that consumes the attention of the department and the minister in this position. So again, despite the fact that there is limited funding for capital projects, there is still significant roadwork that will be taking place across the Province through the combination of different agreements that we have from the federal Road to Rails agreement, through the regional trunk roads agreement which is part of it and, of course, a much smaller amount than in the past, but still some dollars in the area of the provincial roads program.

One item which we did decide to put back into the budget this year which had not been funded last year was the calcium chloride program. That was in recognition of the fact that people who have gravel roads running through their communities had experienced a lot of difficulty last year when that was not available to them. That has been a priority, to try and find the money to reinstate that. We have included that in the provincial roads program.

One other point I would make is, the funding that is included in the budget for the ferry service, particularly for a replacement vessel for Bell Island: We can talk about the details of how that works, but again it was considered and included as a priority to maintain the second run on Bell Island. That has required that there be a significant capital allocation to accommodate that.

I'm going to leave my opening comments there and put it back to you folks.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

We will go now to Mr. Byrne, the vice-chair.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Do you want to use up the fifteen minutes, if you so desire?

MR. FRENCH: It doesn't matter.

CHAIR: No, okay.

MR. FRENCH: I guess we are ready.

I'm going to start on page 67 and I'm going to start with the Minister's Office and Salaries. In the 1995-1996 Budget it was $158,800, and it is now $166,300. Just some quick rationale for the increase there. Is that just because of step progressions in salaries?

MS BETTNEY: I would think, given the amount that we see there, the increase of $8,000 overall, that it would be normal step increases allocated to some of the staff. Of course, some of the new ones coming in, that would not apply to.

MR. FRENCH: Under Purchased Services: I'm just curious as to what the Purchased Services are. We have gone from $10,900 down to $3,700. We budgeted $3,700 for $1995-1996. It went up to $10,900, and now we are back to $3,700.

MS BETTNEY: Generally entertainment. Is there anything specific, Ramona?

MS COLE: The reason for the revised being up partly is because of the transportation conference that we held here last June. The minister hosted a couple of functions there. That would account for the revised being up a bit. Thirty-seven hundred dollars is the standard allocation that is put into each minister's office for entertainment.

MR. FRENCH: In Executive Support, again Salaries, we budgeted $500,600. That ballooned to $698,600 and now we are back to $443,400.

MS BETTNEY: The reason for the increase there is the severance package associated with the change at the deputy minister level. That came out of last year's budget figures. The decrease then that you see this year, reflects the fact that we have eliminated an ADM position in the department. So we now have two ADMs where last year there would have been three; and prior to this, there would have been three.

MR. FRENCH: Two hundred and fifty thousand -

MS BETTNEY: No, that would be coming from the $500,600 budgeted figure down to the $443,400 figure. Is that correct, Ramona? You jump in and tell me of I am (inaudible).

MS COLE: The ADM position was worth $86,000; that is gone. There has been a secretarial position that was moved in from another area which makes the difference only $60,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, but the $500,600 to the $698,600?

MS COLE: That is the severance pay for the previous deputy minister plus some holiday pay that he had accumulated over the years.

MR. FRENCH: So his severance package was close to $200,000?

MS COLE: Well, his vacation pay that he had accumulated was significant. About $70,000 of that was his vacation pay; he didn't take a lot of time off while he was working.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who was that? What position was that?

MS COLE: The former deputy minister, Mr. White.

MR. FRENCH: Transportation and Communications; I am just curious as to exactly what that covers off, $31,900?

MS COLE: That will cover travel and telephone costs related to the minister's office.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

There will be times when I won't bother with salaries because I can hopefully figure some things out for myself. On the next page - as I go through tonight I am probably going to ask a fair number of questions on Grants and Subsidies in Purchased Services. I did the same thing, I guess, last night. Purchased Services keeps coming up to me, as I get time to analyze the Budget a bit more. Maybe we should have a department that does Purchased Services because it seems to be, you know, in every department of government and I think we spend a lot of money here.

MS BETTNEY: If I could just comment on that: In a lot of the categories of the Budget where you will see Purchased Services, as it refers to the kinds of things we do, that is where you will find a lot of contracts and areas where we have gone to private services, to privatizing some of what we are doing. So any of the contracts that we have for snow clearing, for roadwork, for buildings, for construction, for cleaning, all of those, get categorized in that lump called Purchased Services. So you will find it much different as we go through in different sections of the Budget; but that is generally what it reflects.

MR. FRENCH: Yes. Under Purchased Services, in 1.2.02.06, $303,100. Can you give me a rough idea what that might be?

MS COLE: All the photocopier rentals for the whole department are in there. Any maintenance agreements on photocopiers, telephone costs, basic telephone costs for most of the areas in the department are all included there. Training for some of the staff, printing charges, any printing that is done for the whole department, comes through that specific account.

MR. FRENCH: So that would come out of the Administrative Support?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Property, Furnishings and Equipment: We had $27,000 budgeted in 1995-96, that went to $42,700 and now we are down to $14,000.

MS COLE: It was just a reduction that we took in the department. We had to cut so we decided we would cut back on those purchased office supplies.

MR. FRENCH: Is this earmarked for any particular purchase?

MS COLE: No. That $14,000 actually covers all property, furnishings and equipment for the whole department, so it does not go a long way.

MR. FRENCH: What about the $42,700?

MS COLE: The $42,700 included a vehicle that we bought last year, and some general office furniture.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why was the vehicle bought?

MS COLE: It was bought for one of our chauffeurs.

MR. FRENCH: In Policy Development and Planning, the salaries have gone down roughly $35,000. Is that because of lay-offs?

MS BETTNEY: We have eliminated some positions there. Some of them were vacant positions, but we have also eliminated one position which was filled, which I think represents about the amount that you are referring to, $36,000.

MR. FRENCH: In Grants and Subsidies, $210,500: What would that be for?

MS BETTNEY: We provide a grant to the HUB for operating the transportation system for the disabled. That is $94,500. We have a couple of other committees that are transportation type committees, Atlantic Provinces Transportation Committee and a technical advisory committee. There is sort of a stipend that is associated with participation in those committees and that totals, between the two of them, another $100,000 roughly.

MR. FRENCH: So the members who would serve on these committees would get some kind of an honorarium?

MS BETTNEY: No, these would be staff who would serve on these committees representing the department, interprovincial committees at a technical level. Can you give me an example, someone?

MR. McCARTHY: Well, the second one, the Transportation Association of Canada: All provinces of the country are members of the Transportation Association of Canada, and you pay really a membership in that association, and it is based on the population of the province, the proportion that you pay to that association.

The other one is the Atlantic Provinces Transportation Commission. It is a commission funded by the four Atlantic Provinces and some private funding. A staff person would sit on the board as part of his regular duties.

MR. FRENCH: So, if he had expenses it would come out of this?

MR. McCARTHY: No, it would come out of his regular -

CHAIR: Can we go back? When you are speaking, it is important that you identify yourself for recording purposes so that we can pick it up. It is okay with Bob because Bob has been recognized, but when you start to answer the question -

MS BETTNEY: I will direct the question to one or the other of the staff, and I will name them. Terry.

CHAIR: Yes. If Terry would just identify himself when he speaks, or your deputy.

MR. FRENCH: Phil Wall had to do a lot of that last night, Terry.

MR. McCARTHY: The travel costs going to meetings would come out of that employee's regular travel allocation. It happens to be the policy development and planning office guy who sits on this board, and his travel costs to those meetings would come out of this.

MS BETTNEY: That would be associated with the Transportation and Communications section.

MR. McCARTHY: Right.

MS BETTNEY: The travel would be allocated to that.

MR. FRENCH: I am having some difficulty following that. If it is for people who serve on boards, say, within the department, then would we still pay them a stipend or would we not?

MS BETTNEY: No.

MR. FRENCH: We would not?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, what is the $100,000 for?

MS BETTNEY: I think I will go back again. I will give an example from a municipal perspective that strikes me as being very similar. As a member of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, communities pay a prorated amount to be members, based on population. As Terry explained, to be members of the Atlantic Provinces Transportation Commission, we pay a participation of membership fee to be part of that. That is based on the population of the Province, and the other provinces pay their share.

So in the case of the APTC, you are looking at $72,000, which is what it costs us to be a member of that commission. Now, when there are expenses associated with our staff attending those meetings then the travel and expenses would come out of transportation and communications that are allocated in the Budget for their area where they work. There is no other honorarium, additional compensation, given to the staff to sit on these bodies.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, because earlier, Madam Minister, you said we pay a stipend, or I thought that is what you said anyway.

WITNESS: I don't think so. It may have been another question maybe.

MR. FRENCH: I think we will go on to Administration and the Salaries: That is, I guess, the employees who work in the maintenance division of your department. So the salaries are pretty straightforward to me.

Again, Transportation and Communications, $181,300; up by approximately $30,000 over last year.

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask Ramona. Can you comment on the specifics of that, please?

MS COLE: Yes, that is travel related to our supervisors, the transportation of supervisors and superintendents. Because of the restructuring we have actually cut out some positions in different areas of the Province. The remaining employees have to travel to get to the other units moreso than they would normally have to, so we put a little bit extra in there for their travels.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Again, Minister, on the Salaries: It is just a small decrease of roughly $100,000. Would that have been because of lay-offs, say, over the past twelve months? Would that be why? I am gone back up again -

MS BETTNEY: We are into 2.1.01?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, or 2.1.01.01., Salaries.

MS BETTNEY: The way I am reading it there is we have a slight increase and I believe that is a result of the restructuring and reallocating of some positions that were not previously in this section of our budget. So some positions moved and the salaries associated with them are now coming out of this particular section of the Budget where they had not been. I think it is one position that we are talking about.

MS COLE: Two clerical.

MS BETTNEY: Two clerical.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies here, $200,000.

MS BETTNEY: That refers to two specific areas: One is trail grooming that is done in Labrador. That accounts for $140,000.

MR. FRENCH: What did you say that was?

MS BETTNEY: Trail grooming. There is a section of a trail in Labrador that runs from - Terry?

MR. McCARTHY: It runs from Red Bay to Cartwright on the Southern Labrador coast.

MS BETTNEY: We provide funds to groom that during the wintertime. The remaining amount there is for local roads boards in the amount of $60,000 which we provide in grants to local roads boards to do some small work in those areas.

MR. FRENCH: We still have local roads boards?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, we do.

MR. FRENCH: Do we have very many? I did not know there were any that existed any more.

MR. McCARTHY: We have about a dozen or so on the Labrador coast and a few in the isolated communities on the South Coast of the Province.

MR. FRENCH: I thought they had all gone.

Under Support Services, $712,300 for Transportation and Communications.

MS BETTNEY: Ramona, I am going to ask you to speak again, please.

MS COLE: That again relates to travel costs for staff in that area. The staff in that area are the people who are in the units and who do tend to travel around the whole road network to do their work. So there is a fair amount of travel involved in that one.

MR. FRENCH: So these would be like foremen or superintendents, that type?

MS COLE: That type plus the frontline people who do travel.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, okay.

I am just curious about Property, Furnishings and Equipment. It was $8,600, it went to $11,800 and now it is $4,300. Are there any plans to buy anything in particular with that or just -

MS BETTNEY: Just to respond again: Where you see that amount across the Budget it will generally be decreased. It is just a conscious choice that we made in trying to handle the budget reductions, to do it in areas that wouldn't affect the service that we were providing. We felt in the area of property and furnishings in particular, we could probably absorb those reductions and make do.

While it doesn't reflect what our normal experience usually is, of having to replace furniture and equipment, we feel that we will make do. It doesn't reflect anything in particular because with a department the size of ours it is very hard to pinpoint that amount of replacement for things like property and furniture, but we feel we will just live within it.

MR. FRENCH: Under Traffic Engineering and Signs, the Salaries have gone from $379,900 to $435,800. In 1995-1996 there was $475,400 budgeted and that got revised downward to $379,900, and now we have gone back to $435,800.

MS BETTNEY: The reduction that you see, from what was budgeted last year to what we are budgeting for 1996-1997, reflects a reduction in seasonal employees in that particular area, in the sign shop. It accounts for nine and a half months of reduction in the seasonal employees. We simply won't be making the same volume of signs that we had planned to or that we have done in the past.

MR. FRENCH: Just for my own idle curiosity here: Do we still supply, or does the department supply, signs to municipalities; and if so, does it charge them for them?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, to both.

MR. FRENCH: To both, okay.

Under Supplies, it was $257,100, it went to $325,800, and then it is budgeted for 1996-1997 at $177,100. Can you give me some idea of exactly what we are talking about here in Supplies?

MS BETTNEY: Those two things are linked, the reduction in the salaries and the reduction in supplies. What we are saying is this is an area of our budget where we cut back; we won't be making the same amount of signs, installing the same amount of signs, and we don't need the supplies to construct them. It is an across the board decrease.

MR. FRENCH: So, in actual fact, the supplies there are the materials you would purchase to do the signs?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: On to page 70. Again in Supplies in 2.1.04 there, Maintenance and Repairs, we have come from $4,758,400 to $3,709,600. That is 2.1.04.04, the decrease.

MS BETTNEY: We are going to use a different system in line painting this year. Again, I would ask Terry, if I go off track here, to jump in. I believe the thrust is that we are going to go to a single line on the highway which will still serve the same purpose of being able to tell people whether it is a passing lane or not a passing lane, but we are actually cutting out a certain amount of feet of line by doing that, and consequently estimating a savings of $150,000 across the Province.

Terry, do you think you need to add anything to clarify that?

MR. MCCARTHY: That single solid line is really on the 50 k.m.h., 60 k.m.h., lower speed local paved roads. We will still have a double solid line on the major highways like the Trans-Canada and the major trunk roads.

MR. FRENCH: What else would be in there? Because that is a very significant change, from $4 million down to $3 million.

MS BETTNEY: Which? Oh, that is part of Supplies as well. The other aspect of that is the reduced road maintenance for the summer period. We have budgeted a reduction of $600,000 in reduced road maintenance.

MR. FRENCH: Would that affect the maintenance of our roads?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Six hundred thousand dollars.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Again, Purchased Services, gone from $1,545,700 down to $1,277,000. What exactly is in there, in Purchases Services?

MS BETTNEY: You are in Purchased Services, still in 2.1.04?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: That is an increase that we put in there based on our experience with the Labrador contract, the maintenance of the Trans-Labrador Highway. We built-in an $80,000 increase in that particular item. There is also an aspect to that related to heavy equipment. Again, Terry, would you speak to that, please?

MR. MCCARTHY: We are taking a reduction in the capital allocation for the purchase of new equipment, but on the other hand we also have an increase in the purchased services area so we can go out and hire more equipment. Some of the equipment, we would only need on a part-time basis.

MR. FRENCH: So that $1,277,000 would cover equipment that you might rent?

MR. MCCARTHY: Right, contract out for the equipment.

MR. FRENCH: Again it just boggles my mind because I know in every department here we have Furnishings again. Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $8,300; every department as you go through. Again are we planning to purchase anything in particular here or is it just a figure that is in there that would deal with maintenance and repairs, if we have to replace something and so on?

MS COLE: That is basically for anything that comes up during the year. It covers tables, chairs, desks, filing cabinets and small office furnishings. It is never specifically allocated at the beginning of the year because it does cover these small items. What we are attempting to do throughout the department is continue to use the old stuff until it is absolutely unusable any more before we will replace it. That $8,300 covers five regional depots and whatever units report to them, so it is not a lot of money.

MR. FRENCH: No, and it may or may not be used.

MS. COLE: Exactly, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Allowances and Assistance: I just want to know what that is for, that $150,000.

MS BETTNEY: I think everybody has to look at this one. Terry.

MR. MCCARTHY: That is an allocation for claims we get from people for damages, you know, that we are held liable for. It is a set amount each year, $150,000. Sometimes if a piece of our equipment hits someone's car and damages it, or there is a pothole, where you hit a fence while snowclearing, or does damage to a driveway or lawn those types of things we end up paying for. That is what that is used for.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies was $186,600 and is now down to $93,300. Exactly what were they?

MS BETTNEY: That is one grant to the City of St. John's. It is the last of five years of grants for roads that have been taken over by the city where an agreement was reached, similar to what we do in other parts of the Province where we bring it up to a standard or provide the funding to do that, in return for which they take ownership and take responsibility for it.

CHAIR: Do you need a break, Bob? I have been letting you roll on here. I should check with the Government Members to see if they have any questions. If not, then - do you want to go on now?

MR. SPARROW: Madam Minister, I was just wondering where you are sort of starting to contract out - Mr. French mentioned it earlier - has the department found much more efficiencies by contracting out certain items? If so, can we have an example? That is a big question, but if you had something, any particular service that may have been done by the department once that is now done by a contractor - is there any comparison to that being of good value to the Province?

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps, George, that is something you can speak to, either George or Terry, but George has been with the department and I think your section of the department does a fair bit of contracted services.

MR. GREENDLAND: I am not sure we have done any comparisons, but we have moved to a situation whereby about 70 per cent of our budget on the building side is now contracted: snowclearing, elevator servicing, sprinkler system. We are basically down to a skeleton crew. That is something that has just evolved; moreso than, yes, it is cheaper, no, it is not. It is to a large extent a different way of doing business. I can safely say it isn't costing us any more. We get good response times and we are generally pleased. As a matter of fact, we have probably moved about as far as we can move in that direction; to answer your question.

MR. SPARROW: Yes, and I have another question too. Revenue - Provincial: Why is that in brackets? I'm just looking at page 70, at the last one. Mr. French asked some questions on it.

MS BETTNEY: That is just an accounting practice of how it is noted in the budget itself. When it is revenue and it is money coming in, the brackets go on it, versus the expenditures, which you see are all the rest there, money going out.

MR. SPARROW: That would be like if you sold something to somebody, like a municipality or whatever.

MR. MCCARTHY: In Maintenance and Repairs we do hire out the equipment to councils from time to time, and do work for councils and others when we aren't competing with private industry. We charge them for that and that goes into a revenue account.

MR. SPARROW: Thank you.

CHAIR: Go ahead, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I have to cover some of the same area that the Member for Conception Bay South did.

CHAIR: Not the same questions, though.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not the same questions, but I'm going to have to touch on some of them.

Back on page 67, the Minister's Office, Salaries: The answer was given that the increase of a few thousand dollars there was for step progression for people in positions. Somebody actually phoned me last night and told me about this, that people in the administration, the higher up civil servants, were getting their step progression increases every six months or every year, type of thing. I couldn't believe it because of the freeze that was on. Is there a freeze or isn't there a freeze on with respect to salaries in government?

MS COLE: Step progressions are still in there. There is no freeze on step progressions. Throughout most of the civil service you will find that people are at the top of their scale so there are very little steps left to get. But if you have somebody who still has steps left to go on their scale they will continue to get them on an annual basis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Would that be with the general service also?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: And members of the union?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Executive Support on the same page, Salaries, was touched upon. You talked about severance pay. (Inaudible).

On page 68, under Policy Development and Planning, 1.2.03, the Grants and Subsidies, subsection 10, you talked about The HUB getting somewhere around $94,500, and the membership to the Atlantic Provinces Transportation Committee - I think you referred to that -

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: - $72,000, which is basically a membership fee. What exactly are we getting for that $72,000? I mean, you are looking at two, possibly three positions there. When you are looking at the angle or the attitude that government has taken over the past number of years, with major lay offs in the civil service, when I go through the Budget - and the same thing last night - I can see there are areas there where you could have cut, instead of taking jobs. The question there to me is: What are we getting for that $72,000? That is a lot of money.

MR. MCCARTHY: That grant actually was cut $20,000 this year, from $90,000 the previous year down to $72,000 this year. That particular commission is a commission sponsored by the four Atlantic Provinces to play an advisory role to governments on all transportation issues like freight rates. They are involved in the federal government initiatives on airports and ports and service fees and a whole bunch of issues. They play a major advisory role to government in those areas.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 69, Administration, 2.1.01.03, Transportation and Communications, $181,300. It was explained that the reason for that is that there is extra travel to do, I suppose, certain work of people who had been let go from the civil service. How many positions - I mean, you are looking at an extra $30,000 - were let go that these people would have to cover for? That is a hard question. Do you see what I'm getting at again?

MR. MCCARTHY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: If we have to spend an extra $30,000 on travel and you only let one person go, what was the point?

MR. MCCARTHY: I don't have the answer to that question, sir; how many people. That particular subhead includes all our senior people, the regional directors and the superintendents in the regions who spend a lot of time travelling from regions to meetings with councils, development associations and those type of groups.

MR. J. BYRNE: The answer to the previous question was that the extra travel was to pick up the slack where civil servants had been let go; to cover for those people. So I say, if you are going to let one or two people go and spend an extra $31,000 - now you have to look at priorities - does it really make sense to do that?

MS COLE: The actual reduction in positions in that area was made two years ago. So while the salary dollars don't look as if there has been a reduction, that was part of the first round of restructuring we did in 1993-94. What we found was that, as a result of those positions being eliminated the remaining people did have to travel more. So money has been put in to cover that eventuality. The salaries are actually misleading in that it looks like there has not been anybody else gone from that section.

MR. J. BYRNE: If that is the case, last year you had budgeted $152,500 and you spent $153,700. You did not spend that much more last year, you only spent an extra $28,000 over and above.

MS COLE: I think the people involved there realized they were on restricted budgets and did not travel as much as they could have like to have done or were requested to do.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Thank you.

MS BETTNEY: The Deputy Minister also has a comment he would like to make.

MR. GRANTER: Just looking at it, I guess, from the broader perspective. Since May of 1995, the department has reduced permanent staff by 182 and temporary seasonal by sixty-five. So across the system I think it is very difficult to look at one area, and relate it to reductions in staff, but across the system the staff reductions have been quite significant. So you are going to find the travel requirement will increase.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Support Services on that same page, Section 03, Transportation and Communications: That was addressed earlier. It went up from $612,000 that was actually spent last year to $712,300. If there have been cuts in numbers, you just mentioned upwards of 200 let go, why would you need an increase of $100,000 for Transportation and Communications?

MR. MCCARTHY: The increase there is a lot of the increases in mobile communications in our equipment. We eliminated the second person on our truck plows last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Wingmen.

MR. MCCARTHY: We added mobile communication equipment to the plows so they have communications with the main depot.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I thank you.

With respect to the same section, Property Furnishings and Equipment: $8.600 up to $11,800. I would like to know specifically what was brought from that money?

MS. COLE: I can certainly find out for you. I do not know it off hand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Thank you.

Page 70, under Maintenance and Repairs, Purchased Services again: You had budgeted $897,000. it went to $1,545,700 and you are back to $1,277,000 this year. That $1,545,000 that was spent is an extra $600,000 basically. What did you actually buy from that?

MR. MCCARTHY: That reflects an increase in the cost of the maintenance contracts in Labrador. We have gone entirely to contracting all of our summer and winter maintenance in Labrador and that reflected a changeover from doing it ourselves to contracting it out. It is paid under this subhead.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Snow and Ice Control, the next section, section 06, Purchased Services, budgeted, $2,824,400; revised, $2,394,000; this year it is $3,271,000. I have a note here: Why such a large increase, and what would you be purchasing?

MR. MCCARTHY: First of all, I guess, this past winter we experienced an excellent winter, so the cost of the Purchased Services - we do have a lot of plows and loaders on contract even here on the island. We have a number of places on the island where there are lump sum contracts. But especially the loader ones which are paid by the hour, that was well down this year because we did not have any snow.

The increase in the budget is again to reflect the increase for the winter costs in Labrador, budgeted for a more normal winter, the $2.8 million. The $2.3 million: we saved money this year on hire of equipment.

MS BETTNEY: That is another category where if we have another fine winter we will come in with a lower than budgeted amount.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is not a question of coming in lower than budgeted. You are still up $400,000, is it - $2.8 million to $3.2 million, from what was budgeted last year, which you would normally budget for a bad winter, I would assume; yet, you are still up $400,000.

MR. McCARTHY: $200,000 of that increase is also part of the restructuring we did in our mechanical division. We scaled down a number of the smaller outlying repair shops to one or two mechanics, and went to more floating of equipment to the major repair depots. As part of the downsizing we added $200,000 to that vote to accommodate the extra floating of equipment into the main depots.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 71, Administration, Transportation and Communications again: $374,000 budgeted for 1996-1997 as compared to $310,000 that was spent last year. That is an extra $64,000. Again, I am looking at that - two or three jobs gone. Why such an increase there?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask George Greenland to comment on that. We are into the area of building maintenance and operations, and I know this has to -

AN HON. MEMBER: Ramona.

MS BETTNEY: Ramona would be better? Okay.

MS COLE: Again, that is an area where, in the past, even though the revised shows pretty well in line with the budgeted, it is an area where travel and sometimes telephone costs were not adequately funded and we ended up paying them out of other areas of the department, and travel was kept to a minimum because they knew the money was not there.

That actual increase is not an overall increase in our departmental budget. The regional directors responsible for those areas would have reallocated from other areas where they could see less need for the money.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment:, $8,900 budgeted and you spent double that, $18,200, or pretty close to double. What would that have been spent on?

MS COLE: Again, I will have to check on that. Specifics like that, I have not made any notes on those.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you will get that information for me?

MS COLE: I certainly will.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Under Technical Support Services, Supplies: $22,900 spent last year, up to $38,600 this year. Why would you want to budget more than was spent last year, especially in times of such serious cutbacks in government?

MS COLE: That supplies account covers two main areas. One is supplies for government I.D. cards and the other is first aid supplies. We budget in there for first aid supplies that are required. As it happens, in 1995-1996 there was not a great need for them. I guess a lot of the first aid kits are still well stocked. We do not want to cut ourselves short in those areas and not have the money to refill those.

MR. J. BYRNE: Don't want to cut ourselves short.

MR. GREENLAND: That is a good expression. I will add a comment to that.

We made a conscious decision last year not to replace our first aid supplies and take a decrease in the budget on that item.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought you were going to say you made a conscious decision not to have any accidents.

MR. GREENLAND: Well, we don't have those either, Sir.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Page 72, Building Utilities and Maintenance: Budgeted $18,530,600, spent $16,800,600, and you are budgeting $17,480,400. I have a note here: What services, and why the increase?

MS BETTNEY: The increase that we are talking about here -

MR. J. BYRNE: I am sorry; can I interrupt for one second?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What I am getting at here is the fact that government has been cutting. We all know they are laying off. I am not questioning that that may have had to be done, but if you spent x number of dollars this year, why do you have to go above that? Why didn't you just go with the same amount that you spent and hold that?

MS COLE: The reason for the revised being down, a small portion of it, about $500,000, was actually due to utility, electrical costs being down because of the mild winter. The other amount was a conscious decision that we made last November and December to basically cut all maintenance, general and program maintenance, to only essential. This year, we have brought it back up from the revised because we really feel that we should not keep it cut back to that lower level for two years running. It is actually down from last year's budget because we have cut out some areas where we are going to cut back discretionary maintenance.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 73 under Administration, Purchased Services, 06: $642,300 budgeted, revised $600,100 and now $933,000. That is a 50 per cent increase. I mean, that is quite a jump.

MS BETTNEY: I am on the wrong page. What page did you say it was?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 73.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. Purchased Services under Equipment Maintenance, Administration; that's insurance.

MR. J. BYRNE: You spent $600,100 the year before, why did it jump about $333,000?

MS BETTNEY: I presume this is tendered?

MS COLE: Yes.

The insurance premium for the previous year was $640,000. When we went to tender for the new insurance policy, the only bids we got for a premiums with no deductible were a little over $1 million. We were given some options. One of the options was, or the lowest bid was $540,000 for the basic premium and a maximum of $300,000 in deductibles paid at the rate of up to $10,000 per accident. Also built in there is an expected increase for the renewal in September of about 15 per cent.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was under the impression that government vehicles were not insured.

MS COLE: They have been for the last three or four years for public liability.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you went to tender, why was there such a vast difference within a couple of years? Did you have a lot of accidents? Were there a lot of accidents with government vehicles to drive that up like that?

MS COLE: No more than the general population. Insurance rates are going up as you know all across.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty per cent?

MS COLE: We actually had two bids with no deductible and both were $1,050,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you mean to say my insurance will be going up 50 per cent this year?

On page 74 - am I going beyond my time?

CHAIR: Well Jack, you are doing fine. The government member - you don't have a question? No. Go ahead, Jack, unless you want to go back to Mr. French? You are not getting tired are you Jack? It is up to yourselves now.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I have to go back a couple of pages actually, to page 70.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, it might be more sensible, rather than his asking questions and my going over them, if I were to interject every now and then, because he might be asking the same thing that I am going to ask. Would you mind that?

MR. FRENCH: I wouldn't, no.

CHAIR: Well, that is no problem as long as when you interject you might want to identify yourself because of the recording, because we don't want to miss anything you say Jack and attribute it to somebody else. Right?

MR. FRENCH: On page 73, the insurance, $933,000: Was that public tender?

MS COLE: Yes it was.

MR. FRENCH: Who now carries this policy?

MS COLE: Morden & Helwig Ltd. I am not sure of the name of the company. It is handled through Treasury Board Insurance Division. We participate in the actual tendering and review the bids but they make the final decision.

MR. J. BYRNE: You say it was a public tender, or was it a request for proposals?

MS COLE: I think what they did was went out with requests to several different insurance companies, and we got three bids back, two of which were $1,050,000 and the other was way above it.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, back on page 70, Supplies, from $4,758,400 down to $3,709,600: Again, what are we talking here in Supplies?

MS BETTNEY: Is that the one with the line painting again? Are we back on that? Am I on the right page?

MR. FRENCH: Okay, (inaudible). I am okay with that one.

MR. J. BYRNE: You did that one.

MR. FRENCH: The Salaries, under Snow and Ice Control, are up by $364,000, maybe a little better. Any particular reason here?

MS BETTNEY: Terry, you go ahead.

MR. McCARTHY: You see the revised figure: Again we had a good winter, so the overtime and call backs were down substantially. We are showing an increase up to $9.4 million for this year below last year's budget level. That reflects the eliminating of the second person on the truck ploughs.

MR. FRENCH: Again, Purchased Services, gone from $2,394,600 to $3,271,400: Are we talking about sand and salt and this type of thing in here?

MS BETTNEY: That is the increase for the Labrador contracts, as well as the business with the floats, of moving equipment into the depots from the outlying areas for repairs.

MR. FRENCH: On page 71, Salaries have decreased.

MS BETTNEY: In Administration?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. Is that because of lay offs?

MS BETTNEY: That is the annualization of the reductions that we had through restructuring in 1995.

MR. FRENCH: Jack, did you ask the one about Property, Furnishings and Equipment?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. They are going to get that for me.

MR. FRENCH: Allowances and Assistance, from $250,500 up to $600,000.

MS BETTNEY: That is one major insurance claim for an injury that occurred at the public building in Corner Brook. That is the result in terms of the liability and the payment.

MR. FRENCH: Has that claim been paid now, the $600,000?

MS COLE: I believe it is just about ready to be paid.

MS BETTNEY: Somebody slipped and fell, hurt himself, sued us, and that is the result. That is this year's result.

MR. FRENCH: Must have been a massive injury, was it?

MS COLE: Yes, it is a back injury that he contends will keep him off work for the rest of his life. So it is factored in there for loss of income and -

MR. J. BYRNE: Did this go to court?

MS COLE: Yes, and to appeal.

MR. FRENCH: We are getting better than the Americans, aren't we? Under Technical Support Services, Salaries again has gone from $417,900 to $480,800. I'm still on page 71.

MR. GREENLAND: That is basically a vacancy we have been carrying. We didn't fill it last year. We are still carrying it in the hopes we may fill it. It is in the area of occupational health and safety for this division. What happened is we gave it up in the reduction in December, hence you see the revised, $480,800 down to $417,900 and back to $480,800.

MR. FRENCH: So that position is not filled yet.

MR. GREENLAND: No.

MR. FRENCH: Supplies went from $22,900 up to $38,600.

MR. GREENLAND: That is the first-aid supplies we didn't buy last year, if you remember. We are buying them this year.

MR. FRENCH: Again, Purchased Services.

MR. GREENLAND: Purchased Services? I think that is primarily building insurance. We carry all the insurance on government's buildings, some 600-odd properties.

MR. FRENCH: Page 72, 2.2.03. Salaries have gone - I will use the revised figure, $7,445,400 in there, now down to $7,182,600. Again I assume that was through lay offs and so on.

MR. GREENLAND: That is primarily the colleges. We had an average of three people on each of the campuses that we are closing. There is an annualized cost representing that reduction. We have taken reductions before but that is what reflected here.

MR. FRENCH: When will these actually come into effect?

MR. GREENLAND: I think we are tentatively set up for the end of August. So we are getting seven months I think, Ramona, this year, seven months of salary.

MR. FRENCH: Fifteen positions?

MR. GREENLAND: Well eleven. There are some eleven positions.

MR. FRENCH: You will have to bear with me, Mr. Chairman, I am making some notes as I go along.

WITNESS: Well, you know, time is time.

MR. FRENCH: Go on! That's not true.

Okay, Purchased Services again.

MR. GREENLAND: Half of that I think roughly is the electricity bill. I was hoping that we were going to hit that question just about the time the automatic lights kick out here, but we are a bit early. Half of that is electricity. We provide service contracts - I mentioned in an earlier question that I answered - like snow clearing, elevator servicing and all these service contracts, which are in here under Purchased Services.

MR. FRENCH: So you are telling me this is lights?

MR. GREENLAND: Well lights are about $8 million, if my memory is right on this, about $8 million. The previous one, Supplies, is heating fuel; so our bill together is around $10 million for heat and light. Then there is another $8 million roughly for service contracts and maintenance contracts.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Oh, go ahead Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oftentimes we drive by and we see the left block lit up in the evenings. Is it because it is cheaper to have them running or more expensive to turn them off?

MR. GREENLAND: This is a favourite question. Two reasons: First of all our cleaning is done pretty well at night.

MR. J. BYRNE: Every floor at the same time?

MR. GREENLAND: Pretty well. There is a cleaner that goes through collecting garbage and there are other cleaning crews that go through.

The other thing of course is our lights are done in zonal areas for that building and this building which has cut our cost tremendously in moving partitions. We don't have to move light switches when we do your office. Now downstairs in your wing it is a little different, but in most of these buildings - in this room, if you look around, there is not a light switch in it. So we can take down a partition, put it up somewhere else and we don't have to get into wiring. Those are two of the features.

The other thing, believe it or not, when we looked at this two years ago, we recorded about 140 people in and out of this complex on an average weekend. So there are people in here for five minutes, there are people here for hours, there are people for whatever business they do. I don't pretend to know but there is a lot of traffic that starts at five o'clock. If they come in they switch on a complete floor, half the people in all fairness: Well I need this for the washroom, I need that for my office and the Xerox copier is somewhere else. So the whole floor gets lit up.

On the other side, of course, when we looked at it as well, very little of the energy we use is lost because we do capture it for heating load. So it is not a full loss of all the lights that are on. The lights do actually contribute to our heating.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, under Rentals, Purchased Services, $357,400.

MR. GREENLAND: That is basically work we do in rental property, if my recollection is correct. It is repairs and -

MS COLE: (Inaudible) that is for rentals.

MR. GREENLAND: Oh, that's the rentals; I'm sorry, yes. We actually do rent some property outside and this is where this is hidden in our Budget. Well, hidden is wrong, poor choice of words - located in our Budget.

Even though we do rent for most other departments we also rent for ourselves. The McCurdy Complex in Gander, we have rental properties there as well.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Page 73, Purchased Services again, $302,500 down to $60,000.

MR. GREENLAND: The normal here is the $75,000 you see. These are our Professional Services and Purchased Services together. It is $75,000 we carry for work in leased accommodations. The $300,000 last year, well the difference, was for fitting out the government service centres which were set up around the Province. We actually had to carry a vote for furnishings in that. We used modular furniture in those, Clarenville, Grand Falls, Goose Bay and St. John's. So that's last year's vote. If you had gone back to the 1994-1995 you would find $75,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Under Administration, Salaries have gone from $1,221,400 to $978,900.

MS BETTNEY: That is the annualization of our restructuring and the savings.

MR. FRENCH: The other one of course was insurance.

On to page 74, again Salaries is down a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Is that through lay offs?

MS BETTNEY: The restructuring.

MR. FRENCH: Might I ask here: These are lay offs that have already taken place and they are not new ones to come?

MS BETTNEY: That is right.

MR. FRENCH: Supplies, in 2.3.02, from $8,305,600 down to $8,117,100.

MS BETTNEY: Ramona, did you wish to...?

MS COLE: That is the area where we put money for gas for the vehicle fleet and parts for repairs to vehicles belonging to all government departments, not just our own. We have been reducing the vehicle fleet whenever we can, and as a result we can see a reduction coming in the number of parts and the amount of gas that we use.

MR. FRENCH: Under Heavy Equipment, it says Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $4 million.

MS BETTNEY: That is the reduced funding for heavy equipment purchases, and I believe that is linked to the earlier increase in the rentals that we referred to; reduced on this side, we aren't buying as much, but reflected as a lesser increase on the actual rentals of heavy equipment.

MR. FRENCH: I just wonder, if we are going to use $4 million for equipment, why don't we just call it equipment?

MS BETTNEY: Treasury Board has this system of doing the Budget which sets consistent categories across all departments. Sometimes it is a bit of a stretch to make them fit all of the individual circumstances of each department, and I think that is what you see reflected here. If each department were to set out its own terminology you would have vastly different budgets coming in from each one. I think it is a consistency issue you see here.

MR. J. BYRNE: You made a statement there that the $4 million, as reflected in the rentals earlier on, is a decrease here in what you are purchasing for heavy equipment, but you also said it is a decrease in rentals. Wouldn't it be the reverse of that? Wouldn't it be an increase in rentals and a decrease -

MS BETTNEY: Yes, sorry if I said it that way. What I meant to say was we aren't spending as much in purchasing heavy equipment. Consequently we do have an increase in our rentals budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: On that same section, under Revenue - Provincial, you have $125,000 budgeted, revised $420,000 and then down to $125,000 again. Where did that extra $295,000 come from?

MS BETTNEY: Terry.

MC. McCARTHY: Last year we made two decisions. One, we decided to get rid of all dozers in our fleet. We had a number of old dozers that we were spending a fair amount of money on keeping them in repair. We auctioned them all off. Now if we need a dozer we go out and rent if from private industry.

The second one was we used to screen all of our own winter sand, or the majority of it, and we made another conscious decision to contract that out, and we sold off the sand-screeners that we had.

MR. FRENCH: Page 75, Salaries. Again I guess this was part of restructuring from $1,725,000 to $1,667,300.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, that is two senior positions which were eliminated from this division, four positions in highway design, and another one in the soils lab.

MR. J. BYRNE: On that there: It seems that a lot of the sections are having a fair decrease in the salaries. I think it was the deputy minister who mentioned that there were 180 jobs and 60, 200-odd. That amount of money has been saved from a couple of hundred positions; in every section in this department?

MS BETTNEY: Ramona, did you wish to comment?

MS COLE: Yes. Some of the salary dollars that you are seeing here are the annualization of restructuring in previous years. The 182 plus the 65 is since May of 1995. The restructuring on the transportation side actually started two years before, so some of this reduction in salary dollars is annualization of those. Those positions aren't included in the total that Mr. Granter mentioned earlier. I think over the past three years there have been more like 400 positions.

CHAIR: We are just saying positions. Is there any clarification needed in terms of positions or jobs? When we say positions, what do we mean?

MS BETTNEY: Well, the two. What we mean by -

CHAIR: A position not filled or an actual person who was working?

MS BETTNEY: It means, yes, an actual person in the case of this category here, but it also means that the position is eliminated from our departmental budget. The job is gone, it is not carried as a vacancy, it is eliminated from the budget.

CHAIR: Now, the clarification I wanted: Was the position actually filled or was it a position that was there vacant and eliminated? That is the kind (inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: These were filled positions that are eliminated.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: They had to have been filled some time or there never would have been a position.

CHAIR: Not necessarily so, Jack.

MR. FRENCH: Anyhow, we have to move on.

Under Supplies in Administrative Support, we have gone from $137,700 down to $75,100?

MS BETTNEY: Again, this is an area where we have cut back in terms of the design work that we will actually be doing. The supplies that support that work are fairly costly and with that design not taking place we have had a proportionate reduction in actual purchase of supplies. We have the people doing the work so they don't need the supplies.

MR. FRENCH: So, where is our design work being done now, in-house or out-house?

CHAIR: Could you rephrase that question?

MR. FRENCH: I am not so sure. Over the years, we all remember that big turnout there in Gambo, so I would put that one in the out-house category (inaudible) now. Well, outside of the department then?

MR. McCARTHY: All of our highway design work is still being done in-house. This Supplies account is for things like transits, levels, medians and some survey equipment that we are using. We feel we are fairly well stocked with modern equipment and we can take a reduction in the supply account in this area.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Purchased Services, $10,800 down from $52,200.

MR. McCARTHY: Purchased Services in this case, in this subhead, would be contracting out for professional services.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. McCARTHY: Right.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, Property Furnishings and Equipment, $74,100 down to $48,900: I would like to know what's in there.

MR. McCARTHY: That's the equipment for our soils lab and supplies used in the testing of asphalt and crushed materials that are used in the field inspection, you know our soils lab on LeMarchant Road.

MR. J. BYRNE: So basically, you are cutting it from what was budgeted in 1995-1996 to 1996-1997 - it is almost a 50 per cent decrease. Is that some indication that they will be doing 50 per cent less work?

MR. McCARTHY: It is not 50 per cent less work but our overall budget is down over the last couple of years, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Project Management and Design, Salaries were down a little over $200,000. Again, is that through restructuring of positions?

MR. GREENLAND: The answer is yes.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Transportation and Communications has gone up from $48,000 to $87,000.

MR. GREENLAND: Basically, we have been carrying around $100,000 and last year again we made a conscious effort to reduce our travel and a lot of things were put on hold; so we are back to an $87,000-vote for this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: You can't make a conscious decision to put everything on hold again for another year and create another two jobs maybe?

MR. GREENLAND: The difficulty here is we still have work to do when we did not do some of it last year, to be candid with you.

MR. FRENCH: Is it work that has to be done?

MR. GREENLAND: It is work that is ongoing and you will see when you get to our (inaudible) our numbers are down, but we do have a number of projects that we have to have finished this year. A couple of them involve a considerable amount of inspection time around the Province, and of course, it is travel time.

MR. FRENCH: Again Property, Furnishings and Equipment, from $22,000 down to $4,000.

CHAIR: We will hear the answer on that, Bob, and then we will let -

MR. GREENLAND: Basically, we are just going to try not to buy anything, I guess, to be candid with you. I think we have enough engineering equipment to take us through. We have had some reductions in staff, and we will cross our fingers.

MR. FRENCH: Would this be a good time, Mr. Chairman, for a smoke break?

CHAIR: Yes, I was just going to go into my announcement. Usually we look at taking a break at 8:30 p.m. Because of my addiction it is almost compulsory.

MR. FRENCH: Realizing you have to go out doors, of course.

CHAIR: Yes. Unless you guys get finished in time.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no! I can keep it going until 8:30 p.m. and then you can have a break if you like. Then we can come back and we will just continue on. I have a lot of questions yet.

MR. FRENCH: So do I.

MR. J. BYRNE: Although, I am going through faster than I thought I would.

CHAIR: Okay, we can go until 8:30 p.m. and then we will take a break. Hopefully you guys can speed up. If you do not mind me asking, which one of you guys (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I am.

CHAIR: Okay. Go ahead, Jack!

MR. J. BYRNE: You do not smoke do you?

MR. FRENCH: Me, no, I am just looking after Ralph's interest.

CHAIR: Myself and him represent the same town, you have to understand that. We have to look out for each other.

MR. J. BYRNE: We will go to 8:30 p.m.

MS BETTNEY: Are we moving to page 76?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

CHAIR: Of course, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is very important to our area also.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Administrative Support, Salaries: "Appropriations provide for the engineering support of all capital road projects," - engineering support. Salaries, $6,330,400 down form $6,575,500 budgeted, $6,448,000 revised: Where would these positions be? It is for engineering support, is it? Across the Province or is it in the Engineer Department?

MS BETTNEY: Both. There is a seasonal layoff of engineering staff which would be headquartered here in the building. There is also the elimination of four regional positions that account for approximately $100,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Has there ever been any - well, we have a new minister, I know, but the staff may be able to answer - serious contemplation or discussions with respect to privatizing some of the engineering work being done for government?

MS BETTNEY: We have had discussions on that, even since both of us have come to the department, so I will ask Clyde to comment on that.

MR. GRANTER: There has been discussion, I think, ongoing for years. There has never been a clear indication that it would be to the financial benefit of the government, but it is not something that we intend to let die. We intend to continue to probably accelerate discussions with the engineering community to see if there is a way to sort of, through some partnering arrangement, at least go through an experimental stage here, to get a fix on whether we can do it more cheaply by contracting out.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know why that question came to me, because when I was going through this and saw the decrease in the salaries and what have you - I really do not know why I asked the question, and I am not supporting it one way or the other. I just thought that you may be thinking about privatizing the engineering.

MS BETTNEY: We will be looking at it. We are examining the viability of it.

MR. J. BYRNE: If that is the final decision, that you would decide to privatize this service, would it be tendered? Would there be a request for proposals? Would it be, who knows whom that get the work, type of thing?

MS BETTNEY: For a professional service of this nature, there is a process that is dictated by The Public Tender Act.

MR. J. BYRNE: Professional services are exempt.

MS BETTNEY: Well we go through a bid process usually inviting three bids. I think the difference being from a normal public tender that you are not bound by the lowest bid because you are dealing with a kind of service where you have to be able to evaluate it from a quality perspective and from degrees of variation that are very difficult to control in a lowest bid situation. So again it would be our intention, if we find through whatever means that we choose to test this, that it is the route that we wish to follow, that we would be certainly opening it to the whole construction, engineering, business community to try and find the best possible deal for government, a combination of expertise, service and cost.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. FRENCH: Can I just ask a question here? If that does transpire - and I realize government does not have to tell us in Opposition their business - is there some way that I could be notified, as a critic of transportation, that this was going to be become a reality?

AN HON. MEMBER: Before it became a reality?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS COLE: I don't see any reason not to.

MR. GRANTER: I don't see any reason why not to either. One point of clarification I would like to make here is that we would not be contracting out the entire engineering capability within the department. You need enough in-house to administer, to be sort of knowledgeable about what is going on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Quality control and what have you.

MS COLE: That is right.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

Under the next section, page 76, Improvement and Construction - Provincial Roads, Supplies, $300,000 budgeted, $610,000 spent, and $300,000 budgeted. Why was there a $310,000 increase, and what was it spent on?

MS BETTNEY: Do one of us have an answer? Ramona, do you have one?

MS COLE: Generally in the area of the capital road construction, the total allocation is budgeted on the best estimate that we can make at the time as to how it will be spent. Generally it does not fit the budget exactly, but on the bottom line the projects still total the same amount, or if they go over we can pinpoint the specific -

MR. J. BYRNE: But that is over by 100 per cent.

MS COLE: Yes, but we can pinpoint the specific on the project, but it might not necessarily - we could find out what makes that go up, but the $300,000 budgeted would have been just an estimate at the time, at the beginning.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that, but usually estimates are reasonably close.

MS COLE: If we can find out what makes up the $610,000 for you -

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to know that.

Also, on Property, Furnishings and Equipment -

MR. FRENCH: Excuse me! Could I just interject here? The $300,000 that we intend to spend, that is just for supplies?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: That is not work?

MS COLE: No, supplies, survey pegs and stuff like that.

MR. FRENCH: What are we talking about in supplies?

MR. McCARTHY: Basically, Supplies in that account would be the survey pegs, things the field crews are using in laying out the construction projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: That $610,000 again: There would not be any vehicles or anything purchased there, would there?

MR. McCARTHY: There wouldn't be any vehicles purchased, but we do have leased vehicles. We use leased vehicles on construction, and that would reflect in the purchased services area.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Are you going to investigate that and get back to me?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Purchased Services, $11,765,000 budgeted, $13,165,000 spent: That is $1,800,000, somewhere around there, over and above, and now they have roughly $5 million budgeted. What are these services, why the increase, and why the decrease?

AN HON. MEMBER: What is it?

MR. J. BYRNE: Both. There is an increase and a decrease.

MR. McCARTHY: The increase last year reflected the first instalment of the federal freight rate subsidy program. When they eliminated the freight rate subsidy, the Province was given $3 million of federal money which had to be matched by an equal amount from the Province, and that was added after the budget was done last year.

The decrease this year reflects the decrease in the overall improvement in the construction budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Isn't that a strange location or place to put that in the budget? You are talking about freight subsidies?

MR. McCARTHY: Well, it was compensation to the Province of $3 million because they eliminated the subsidy program, and the Province chose to spend that money in transportation, highway improvement projects, and it had to be matched dollar for dollar by the Province, to spend it on highway improvement projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: And the decrease? We are looking at an $8 million decrease from what was spent last year, not $3 million.

MR. McCARTHY: That is the contract payments that reflect the decrease in our budget for the Provincial Roads Program this year.

MR. FRENCH: So what are we spending the $4,965,000 on?

MR. McCARTHY: That is the actual payments to the contractors for the actual construction work.

MR. FRENCH: Is this work that is going to go to public tender?

MR. McCARTHY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Can we get a list of the roads and bridges that are to be done?

MS BETTNEY: At this time that is in the process of being finalized. I anticipate it going through Cabinet within the next two weeks and then it will be made public after that approval.

MR. FRENCH: I would hope then that our petition that we presented today will be given consideration.

MS BETTNEY: It will be taken under advisement.

MR. FRENCH: So the decision has not been made then as to exactly what we are going to pave or what bridges we are going to be building?

MS BETTNEY: Obviously, at this stage of the budget, and at this stage of approvals, we have developed a list of projects that we are proposing and putting forward for approval under The Provincial Roads Program. The final approvals are not given yet.

MR. FRENCH: Will they be ready before the House closes?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: On the same line: So you are saying that basically it to be spent on road construction this year, is less than $5 million?

MS BETTNEY: The actual budget figure for Provincial Roads is $6 million. That reflects some carry over projects from last year, and the amount that you see here.

MR. J. BYRNE: What about the Road for Rails Agreement?

MS BETTNEY: That is different. That is coming up in the next one.

CHAIR: We are going to take a break now until about 8:45 p.m. I am doing it, Jack, because I am sure that you people want to stretch your legs and relax for a few minutes. Not me, I am just trying to be accommodate you, right.

MR. J. BYRNE: No problem.

CHAIR: Okay, so 8:45 p.m. There is coffee down in the Caucus Room downstairs. There is no smoking down there. You can go down there and have a coffee or whatever.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you. I do not think I will have a coffee though.

 

Recess

 

CHAIR: Order.

Okay, Bob.

MR. FRENCH: I would like to go back to page 76. There is one that Jack missed and it was, again, one of my favourites, Purchased Services, $100,000. Just tell me what that is briefly, please.

MS BETTNEY: Under which category?

MR. FRENCH: It is under Pre-Engineering.

MS BETTNEY: Under Pre-Engineering, Purchased Services.

MR. McCARTHY: That is, we contract out for investigations for brick footings and engineering work associated with construction.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. In Property, Furnishings and Equipment - I don't know if we have asked this one, on the $50,000 in 3.2.03.07.

MR. McCARTHY: That is equipment they would need in the field offices on the construction project maintenance.

MR. FRENCH: Page 77, Highways - Transportation Initiative: I will ask this question first I guess, minister. The federal government under the transportation, is this the Roads to Rails?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I am assuming in 1996-1997, we are going to spend $26,042,600?

MS BETTNEY: No, actually if you look down to the Revenue - Federal, $34 million for the transportation initiative on the Trans Canada Highway, that is the figure.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, have we decided or has the government decided exactly what work is going to be done under this?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, that was announced in the last sitting of the House. I believe that was brought in under the last sitting of the House and the list of projects were provided. They are tendered and I think some of them are actually in progress. We have a copy of that list available that we can give you if you wish.

MR. FRENCH: I probably have it, although I don't remember now. More than likely I have, but I would appreciate getting a copy if I could please.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Some of those contracts were just let this past week or two, weren't they? In certain areas -

MR. McCARTHY: No, most of those contracts have been let now for some time. I mean tendering started back in January actually for those projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: But there was an announcement recently on contracts for the Outer Ring Road -

MS BETTNEY: They were awarded.

MR. J. BYRNE: Awarded, that's what I am saying. I meant awarded, okay.

MR. FRENCH: If I might just go back to page 76, 3.2.03.10. It says Grants and Subsidies, last year we spent $1,052,400 and this year we are spending zero. What would that have been for?

MS BETTNEY: Ramona, would you just like to comment on what it was in the past, what the general category refers to and the fact that we don't have any in there this year. Then if there are specifics you can probably follow it up later.

MS COLE: Okay. I think Terry may be even able to speak better to this one than I can. The money that is in there has been in there in the past and it is to provide grants to communities and municipalities to take over roads. Am I right on that? Considering the low level of total funding available this year, we don't think that we can turn over any roads to any municipalities in 1996-1997.

MR. FRENCH: You are missing an opportunity.

Under Regional Roads - Transportation Initiative, again this is a part of the federal government, another initiative with the federal government?

MS COLE: Yes, that is the other part of the Road for Rails Agreement. The upper section, the highways, is the Trans Canada Highway, and this refers to what we call the trunk roads agreement.

MR. FRENCH: Can we get a copy of both of those?

WITNESS: Yes, I will give it to you now.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you.

Transportation and Communications, $200,000.

MS BETTNEY: That copy is not ready? Well can we update it and provide it tomorrow? Okay, we will provide it tomorrow.

MR. FRENCH: If you could send us over a few copies tomorrow we would appreciate it.

MS BETTNEY: Which page are we on?

MR. FRENCH: We are on page 77, Regional Roads - Transportation Initiative, 03. Transportation and Communications, from $420,000 down to $200,000.

MR. McCARTHY: Again, that is an estimation of the travel costs and phone costs associated with those construction projects.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. The next one under that, $500,000 for Supplies up from $160,000.

MR. McCARTHY: Again, it is just an estimation of the supplies needed to carry out those construction projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is interesting. With respect to Transportation and Communications, the one above: You went from $200,000 budgeted to $420,000. Why such a large increase?

MR. McCARTHY: The $200,000 has been a pretty standard figure we have been using. The $420,000 is the actual at the end of the year, what we actually spent in that.

MR. J. BYRNE: But why was there that much spent? Why was it $220,000 above the estimate? It is double what the estimate was? If that is the case, what you are saying, there should be $420,000 budgeted this year? There must be an abnormality in there somewhere?

MR. McCARTHY: It was a poor estimate to begin with. This year, even though we got about the same amount of money, the projects are bigger. You know, less projects generally mean you have less, that type of cost.

MR. J. BYRNE: Above, in the section Highways - Transportation Initiative, under Supplies you budgeted $500,000, you spent $276,000 and you have $500,000 again, which is probably the reverse of what is down below. Why was the full $500,000 not utilized?

MR. McCARTHY: Obviously it was not needed. So we did not need to spend it and we did not spend it on that particular item. The controlling figures, the bottom line, the $30 million, if it does not get spent in Supplies it means more money will get spent in actual construction. So we control the bottom line as the main control.

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't know if you are missing my point here, but let her slide; go on.

MR. FRENCH: Terry, Property Furnishings and Equipment, $100,000: What are we buying here? Under Highways - Transportation Initiative there is $100,000 up top, and there is $150,000 down in Regional Roads Transportation. So somebody might want to answer both the one time. There is $100,000 in one and $150,000 in the other.

MR. McCARTHY: That one is, you know, equipment that is used on the construction project, the actual equipment in the field. It would be methylene chloride and other things we use in the asphalt area, in the granular area.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, up to the top, the $100,000.

MR. McCARTHY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: The same thing?

MR. McCARTHY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: On page 78, Strategic Highway Improvement Program: "Appropriation provided for a joint Federal-Provincial initiative for highway improvement projects," in Purchased Services there are $3,725,000.

MS BETTNEY: Again this is a 50/50 project that we are involved in with the Federal Government. The actual amount that we will be spending in this area is $4 million. That represents $2 million federal and $2 million provincial. That is the amount that will be spent on the bridges in Labrador this summer.

MR. FRENCH: So all of that is spent in Labrador.

MS BETTNEY: The $4 million is bridges in Labrador, yes.

MR. FRENCH: I know why Wally is so quiet now.

MS BETTNEY: Right.

MR. FRENCH: I understand you now, Ralph. Now I know, Ralph, you were right.

MR. J. BYRNE: You are getting $8 million for a road up there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. FRENCH: Alterations and Improvement To Existing Facilities, Purchased Services, $5,935,000 down from $12,680,000: What exactly is it for?

CHAIR: George Greenland or the Minister.

MR. GRANTER? Do you want to say something to that?

MS BETTNEY: No, I will sit quiet, if you like to respond to that.

MR. GRANTER: I think I can answer it partially. The completion of Philip Place is included in that $5 million.

MR. FRENCH: Can I interject on this one?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: What is the long-range plan for Philip Place, besides blowing it up?

MR. GRANTER: Philip Place will be occupied by two departments, the Department of Mines and Energy and the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. FRENCH: So they will move of this building here? Will the ministry stay in this building or will that move?

MR. GRANTER: My understanding is that the ministerial suites, I think you are referring to, would move to Philip Place.

MR. FRENCH: I just raised that from my own perspective. I thought it was always good if we had all the government departments and the ministers under the one roof. I think some years ago that was the ultimate aim, to bring everybody kind of under - now we seem to be moving in the opposite direction, I guess.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I butt in here?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: On that same section, 3.3.01: You have under Professional Services $1.5 million budgeted, $1.8 million spent, and you are down to $400,000. Why the extra $300,000 over and above what was budgeted?

MR. GREENLAND: We aren't unlike the highways in that we are driven by the bottom line capitals. These are positions - we do. We take our budget for the project and we make our best guess at what the salaries will be on the Professional Services. Professional Services can go up or down because they are based on a percentage of the work we do. The $1.8 million would have still been the same bottom line, basically. Well, actually it would have been reduced a bit.

This year our project is down to $6,435,000 in total, and of that amount we are allowing $400,000 for Professional Services, which will pay the balance of the fees for Philip Place and some other engineering/consultant fees we expect to have for other projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: Further to that, I notice in the Alternations and Improvements to Existing Facilities, you had budgeted $8,725,000 and you spent $12,365,000. Is that almost a $4 million increased cost to the renovations of Philip?

MR. GREENLAND: No, no. Back up to the $14,600,000, if I might. You are netting the revenues out which are throwing the numbers off. If you go back to the $14,600,000, which was the amount voted, we actually spent $14,580,000. This year we are reduced to $6,435,000. Now you get into recharge to other departments and you get into revenues, which kind of distort the number if you look to the bottom line.

MR. J. BYRNE: Back around that same question, though. I was expecting the Philip Place or the Philip building - and I have a note here on the next section, 3.3.02, Development of New Facilities: "Appropriations provide for the construction of new buildings and the extension of existing facilities owned and operated by Government Departments and Agencies." I had a note here: Question the Philip building and budget versus what was spent. Is there or has there been an increase in the cost or the amount of money budgeted for the renovations to the Philip building? Is there an increase? Actually, what was budgeted and what was spent on the Philip building?

MR. GREENLAND: Philip Place is not finished. We are at the moment looking at a potential - and I say potential - increase of about $200,000 over our original total budget of three years ago. We are budgeted at $7.8 million and we expect it to be $8 million.

I should point out, we have not yet asked for the extra $200,000 to go from $7.8 million to $8 million. We are still under budget and ahead of time but we have some other things to solve.

MR. FRENCH: The $100,000 for Professional Services: I guess that is design work.

MR. GREENLAND: No. Professional Services in category 3.3.02.05, salaries relate here to on-site supervision. We have a practice of putting on site our, not an inspector, sort of a manager, a clerk of the works, depending on what your background is.

MR. FRENCH: No, I was talking more about the Professional Services.

MR. GREENLAND: Professional Services are actual fees paid to outside consultants for design, supervision, and so on.

MR. FRENCH: The $200,000 in under Professional Services under 3.3.03.05, $200,000 down there.

MR. GREENLAND: You have lost me for a second.

MS BETTNEY: That is Advanced Planning - Studies.

MR. GREENLAND: I am sorry! Advanced Planning - Studies, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Would that be the $200,000 you might be over budget on the other project?

MR. GREENLAND: No. We have sufficient funds in the Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities to finish Philip Place. There is no question there. The $200,000 is part of an advance planning block which we have traditionally carried. As you look back you will see it was $1.5 million in the previous years. What we traditionally do, and we have said to government: In the building construction, we do a design one year and construction the following. So we often have planning dollars ahead of construction dollars.

MS BETTNEY: Gentlemen, what this represents and what you see here, is the fact that with $200,000 in advance planning you can look ahead to next year and realize there won't be major construction of buildings that we do the design for internally.

MR. FRENCH: Page 80. This is in Air Subsidies now, 4.1.01. Grants and Subsidies, from $905,000 down to $90,000.

MS BETTNEY: That represents the air subsidy in Labrador prior to this year, prior to December of 1995. Is that correct?

MS COLE: The air passenger subsidy in Labrador was eliminated on October 31, at the end of the contract.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that the one to Atlantic? Is it Atlantic?

MS COLE: Labrador Airways.

MR. J. BYRNE: Labrador Airways.

MR. ANDERSEN: Is that the one that (inaudible) in the riding of Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why did it go from $760,000 to $905,000? That is $245,000 more than what was budgeted.

MS BETTNEY: I will comment and, Ramona, if I get off track you can interject. The nature of this subsidy was based on passenger use. There was an increase experienced even up to the time that the subsidy was eliminated. The projection was that it was going to increase even more. What that shows is that there was an increased draw on that passenger subsidy during the period that it was in effect in 1995. When the revisions were done to the budget at that time we felt it necessary to eliminate that subsidy. What is left there in the 1996-1997 budget now simply reflects the subsidy that we provide to Harbour Deep for passengers during the winter.

MR. J. BYRNE: What impact has that had on the transportation in that area, the numbers of people travelling back and forth no?

MS BETTNEY: I don't have figures on what it represents in terms of increased or decreased travelling, if that was the intent of your question. I have received representation from, particularly, the District of Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair on the impact on the cost of travel to people in the area. The department is still reviewing some of the figures that the district, and Labrador in general, has provided in their representation on this issue. I don't have figures yet on actual increases or decreases in passenger travel.

MR. FRENCH: Under Airstrip Maintenance, 4.1.02, Supplies, $227,000.

MS BETTNEY: That is a re-allocation from equipment maintenance. Ramona, please comment a little bit more.

MS COLE: In past years the diesel fuel used in the equipment on the fourteen airstrips on the Coast has been included under equipment maintenance. That is where most of our gas and fuel supplies were included. We just thought it would reflect a better representation of how much is spent on the airstrips if it was moved to that area, so we put the funding for it in there. (Inaudible) the original budget, but....

MR. FRENCH: The $54,000 for Purchased Services?

MS COLE: That would be for any required repairs to runways on the airstrips, minor repairs.

MR. FRENCH: Under Airstrips, 4.1.03, Professional Services has gone from $16,100 down to zero. I guess that is if you need anything done. Under that it says Purchased Services, $695,000.

MR. McCARTHY: That would be contract work. We offer a contract for improvements and upgrading to the restoration of the strips.

MS BETTNEY: Again, if you would note, there is federal revenue associated with the capital upgrading to the airstrips.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just out of curiosity. The $695,000: I mean, is there that much maintenance on the airstrips every year?

MR. McCARTHY: We have fourteen strips on the Coast. As part of the federal agreement when it built those strips, the federal government funds 100 per cent of the cost of restoring those strips. It has to replace the gravel surface about every five years or so, so lighting and those type of things are, you know, restored.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, if we didn't spend that money on airstrips we wouldn't get any.

MR. McCARTHY: Correct, sir.

MR. FRENCH: On page 81, Administration, 4.2.01, Professional Services, $8,000. I notice too that salaries are up a bit.

MS BETTNEY: That is a transfer of a position into that particular part of the budget, from the White Hills into this particular area, associated with running the interprovincial ferry system.

MR. FRENCH: And the $8,000 for Professional Services?

MR. McCARTHY: That is for the hiring of naval architects from time to time when we need someone to do an assessment of one of the ferries for us.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Under Ferry Operations, Salaries has gone from $6,446,600 down to $6,000,500: Is that through restructuring?

MS BETTNEY: The main item there that you see reflected in the decrease - I would not say main - part of it would be the elimination of over-time for captains on the ferry services. The remainder of that - Ramona, is there a major item that you can attribute that to?

MR. McCARTHY: Last year we had a special one-time service on Bell Island for the Centennial. We had an enhanced service during the summer months which cost us extra. In addition, with the takeover of the service on the South Coast, the problems we experienced with contractor getting some of the boats in service, we were down there with our swing vessel, and the swing vessel last year was used pretty well full-time. Normally it is only budgeted for about six months of the year.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the elimination of over-time for captains, obviously that was quite a substantial saving.

MS BETTNEY: It was approximately $100,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did any captains resign and move on to other positions because of that over-time question?

MS BETTNEY: Captains have moved on to other positions. Whether there is a direct relationship, I do not know.

MR. FRENCH: Still under the Ferry Operations, Supplies is up, Purchased Services is up, Grants and Subsidies is up, and Debt Expenses is down. So we will probably take those three first.

MR. McCARTHY: Those figures reflect the takeover of the South Coast ferry services. We took them over last year in the middle of June, part way through the fiscal year. This year we now have to budget for the full year, so that reflects the increase in fuel costs and operating costs for those services. The Purchased Services is the additional cost of refits, more boats. The Grants and Subsidies is the actual payment to the private operators we have on the South Coast annualized over the year.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to that issue, with the South Coast ferries and the increase here in expenditures: Was it last year that there was $30 million or $50 million given to government by the Feds for the South Coast ferry, and they used it to help balance the budget. Now we are going to see government having to come up with the money each year. I mean, I know we have Federal revenue there, but how would you address that concern?

MS BETTNEY: This was part of the overall plan here. It was certainly the recognition that in buying out the South Coast ferry service and making provision to operate it ourselves as a Province that we would be significantly reducing the cost of that service on an annual basis. Of course, as you indicated, there was a lump sum payment to the Province associated with our buying out the service and being prepared to provide it ourselves. We estimated at the time that we would be able to provide the service on a annual basis. Terry, on the actual figure.

MR. McCARTHY: The agreement was basically based on that we could operate the services for $2.8 million annually.

MS BETTNEY: Two point eight million dollars annually. What we are seeing from now, having the actual ferry service in operation, is that we should be able to provide that service annually for $2.4 million. So this is not unexpected or unanticipated. It was certainly budgeted for and recognized that that will be an ongoing expense that we would incur for providing the service.

MR. J. BYRNE: You said that you could provide the service for a reduced cost?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Cost to whom?

MS BETTNEY: What it was costing Marine Atlantic and the Federal Government.

MR. J. BYRNE: So we did it as a favour for Marine Atlantic, we took over the South Coast ferry system. Is that what you are saying?

MS BETTNEY: No, that is not what I am saying.

MR. FRENCH: I hope we don't do them any favours.

MS BETTNEY: In fact, what we did was look at this area of service and recognize that there was a cost associated with providing it to Marine Atlantic and to the federal government. We looked at the overall cost and its long-term cost to the government and thought that there could be a way to provide this service more efficiently. Our department felt that certainly we had the capability to be able to provide it more efficiently, and on the basis of that be able to obtain cash settlement for the extended service that would be to the benefit of the Province. In obtaining the arrangement that we have of the cash buy-out which was $55 million, and the impact that that has on the debt in the current Budget, we feel that financially it was a good deal.

MR. J. BYRNE: But in the long haul, if we are going to be spending - it is $2.8 million a year now, next year it will be up to $3.2 million and five years down the road it will be $4.5 million and blah, blah, blah. In a very short period of time that $55 million that we use which at the time it was said that it would go into a fund and basically run the operations of the South Coast ferry off the interest of that money, is not going to be there. So in the long haul it is going to cost the people of this Province money to help balance the Budget of $55 million. That has to be the case.

MS BETTNEY: Well again, it depends on how you view financial management. If you take the $55 million, invest it and look at the annualization of that and the interest that would be gained, I am not sure what the exact figures are, but it certainly is sufficient to compensate the operation of the service. Now the fact that you take it and put it into an operating deficit or debt retirement, you are still having an offsetting savings in terms of finances to the Province, because you will be carrying charges on that debt.

MR. J. BYRNE: I believe that you are really playing with numbers because in the long haul, if you are providing that service for $2.8 million now, what will that be in five years, ten years, fifteen years or twenty years down the road? You are going to pay more money. How can you not say that? I can see the rationalization, the last time it was a quick $50 million bucks thrown in to help balance the Budget.

MR. McCARTHY: The agreement was based on an initial cost of $2.8 million for us to operate the service. The effect of inflation was taken into the long-term calculation and the value of money in justifying that it was an excellent deal for the Province to take this money and operate that service.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would not argue with the case if you had taken that $55 million and set it aside in a fund and just used that, and the interest from that. But to pay it down on debt retirement, the money is gone - well we can talk philosophically about what the arguments are, I suppose, to a certain extent.

MR. FRENCH: Page 82, Ferry Terminals, Purchased Services, up from $301,000 to $480,000: What are those?

MR. McCARTHY: That is for major repairs to any of our terminals and breakwaters that we have in connection with the ferry services. Last year we only spent $301,000. Again, it was a conscience decision in October, when the Budget crunch came, to freeze that money for the remainder of the year as a saving.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, Ferry Vessels, Purchased Services, $500,000.

MS BETTNEY: Of the $500,000, $200,000 is to be spent on the refit of the Katherine so that it can continue to be used as a second run for this summer. The remainder - are we talking there, the -

MR. McCARTHY: The remainder, the $300,000, is for -

MS BETTNEY: That's a breakwater?

MR. McCARTHY: No, it is for any kind of a major item that would come up in connection with any vessels that would be over and above your normal refit; if you lost an engine or that type of major expense that is over and above your normal refit items.

MR. FRENCH: Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $2,800,000: Is that the first payment on the new ferry for Bell Island?

MS BETTNEY: What that represents is the amount of money that we have allocated to go out to the market to see what we can get in the way of a used ferry. Our first option in going -

MR. FRENCH: It is for Bell Island?

MS BETTNEY: Well, in going out to the market what we will be looking for, in the first instance, is to see if we can find a used vessel which would serve the Fogo Island run better than the Beaumont Hamel does currently. If we are successful in doing that we will be able to shift the Beaumont Hamel to the Bell Island run, and Bell Island is quite satisfied with that kind of arrangement. As I say, this amount of $2.8 million reflects what we have the ability to dedicate to that this year. It will all depend on what is available on the market, whether we are successful in obtaining: (a) a vessel that would do a better service on Fogo and, if not, a second vessel for Bell Island.

MR. FRENCH: Just as an observation here, I guess, and down the road I would certainly - I raised a question in the House one day of the Marystown Shipyard supposedly having its own private financing in place to actually construct a new ferry. Is that still an option that is being considered?

MS BETTNEY: In order to go the route of building a new boat, the estimates that we have to do an ice strengthened vessel that would be appropriate, say, for the Fogo Island run, the lowest estimate is in the vicinity of $18 million. This kind of money just would not finance building. So what we are saying is we cannot afford to build; we are prepared to look at used, if we can bring it in within this kind of cost estimate for this year, and obviously knowing that there would be some continuing allocation of funds as well.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, just let me be the devil's advocate here: What is there is no vessel available?

MS BETTNEY: We will have to re-examine our options at that time.

MR. FRENCH: Then what would happen to the $2.8 million?

MS BETTNEY: If we do not purchase a vessel, it will not be spent.

MR. J. BYRNE: So the preferred option at this point in time is to get a replacement vessel for Fogo and take the Beaumont Hamel for Bell Island? That is the preferred option. If you cannot get -

MS BETTNEY: Assuming there is something on the market that fits this price tag.

MR. J. BYRNE: If there is nothing on the market to fit that price tag there is an option with the Marystown situation, or to purchase another one elsewhere, but you will want to replace the Fogo Island ferry first?

MS BETTNEY: No, I would have to say, just to be clear about it, in going out to the market we are going to have to go out and look at both together, I would say to you. We will be going out possibly through a broker - and again, Clyde, you can jump in here. The market is such that it is a very specialized market. There is a certain way to determine what is available worldwide. We would be going out to say, here is what we are looking for, to a broker, and I think it would be a one, two situation where we would be saying: This is what we prefer, go and see if there is anything there, but at the same time, if not, see if there is anything that would give us the second vessel to replace the Katherine. So it will very much depend on what is available as to what they come back with and what we can afford.

MR. FRENCH: So this $2.8 million is not buying a new vessel?

MS BETTNEY: No, that represents what we could put into a down payment this year.

MR. FRENCH: Under that there are Debt Expenses of $668,000. What debt are we servicing here?

MS COLE: We have long-term financing agreements in place on the Beaumont Hamel and the Gallipoli, twenty-five year agreements. I think we are probably half-way through on each of them, and that is the principle portion.

MR. FRENCH: Then in actual fact we have probably ruled out the proposal on the Marystown Shipyard.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Under Government - Operated Aircraft, Salaries has gone from $1,811,700 to $1,928,400, a change on both ends there.

MS BETTNEY: We were able to obtain a contract just within the last couple of months to refit - it is a contract with Canadair - to refit a couple of CL-215s, and we had to hire on mechanics to do that work. So again you will see revenue that is offsetting that cost.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the salaries: I am just curious as to how many pilots we have in the system who work for the provincial government, and how many aircraft?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to have to defer that question to somebody else.

MR. McCARTHY: I don't have the answer as to exactly how many pilots we have on staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many aircraft?

MR. McCARTHY: Aircraft: We have six CL-215s; we have 2 Cansos; we have the King Air Ambulance and we have a spotter aircraft, Cessna, used in the forest fire program.

MR. J. BYRNE: What about helicopters?

MR. McCARTHY: We do not have any of our own helicopters; that is all contracted.

MR. J. BYRNE: These are all contracted. And the pilots?

MS. COLE: What we have on staff are four permanent positions for pilots, but we hire seasonal for the waterbomber. The permanent pilot positions are for King Air, and I assume the Cessna maybe has some permanent people. The waterbombers are a seasonal operation, so we hire on in late April, I believe, mid-April.

MR. McCARTHY: Yes.

MS. COLE: And lay off at the end of September.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to those people who are seasonal pilots as you refer to, do you have the same people recalled each year?

MR. COLE: Yes.

MR. McCARTHY: Yes, they have recall rights each year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am trying to think here now, what kind of salary would a pilot make. It seems to me, you would think a pilot with his or her credentials would be looking for a permanent, all year around job, type of thing?

MR. McCARTHY: The waterbomber is a seasonal operation, actually six months out of the year, and a lot of those guys - while it is snowing here it warm elsewhere - they move around in the industry to other areas. They are free to do what they like while they are laid off from us, but they have recall rights in the spring.

MR. J. BYRNE: I could not see them being laid off six months of the year on UI.

MR. McCARTHY: Some of them are.

MR. FRENCH: Transportation and Communications, $1,043,000: What is that for?

MR. McCARTHY: The waterbombers are stationed all around the Province during the summer. That is to pay the travel and the hotel and accommodations for the pilots and the aircraft mechanics who are out during the summer on this firefighting program.

MS. COLE: If I could interject something here. There is also an amount in here of about $750,000 that relates to air ambulance costs outside the King Air and the Grenfell operation, when we have to go outside and contract for those.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just out of curiosity. Last year, I think, we sent one or two planes to Quebec or Ontario somewhere where they had forest fires. Do we bill those people for that?

MS. COLE: Yes, that is the revenue shown.

MR. FRENCH: The Supplies, $1,172,300, up by about $122,000. Exactly what are they for?

MR. McCARTHY: That reflects the contract we were successful in getting to do a major, what we call, sea check on two of those new waterbombers actually belonging to the Province of Quebec. We tendered on the contract and got it.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, $712,000.

MS BETTNEY: What I am looking at here, as I know it, are outside repairs and overhauls to engines and props, as well as insurance cost for the aircraft; funding provided for that.

MR. FRENCH: Grants and Subsidies, $2,117,600.

MS COLE: That is the subsidy to the Grenfell Regional Health Services to operate the air ambulance outside of the King Air area.

MR. FRENCH: Down under Aircraft Acquisition - Waterbomers, last year we spent $7,166,000. I assume that was to buy new aircraft, and we are not planning to purchase any in this fiscal year.

MS BETTNEY: Correct.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I just interject? Revenue - Provincial, $385,000. I imagine that was the sale of the older aircraft.

MS BETTNEY: We sold off an old Canso.

MS. COLE: Two.

MS BETTNEY: Two Cansoes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where they put up on tender or what way where they sold off?

MR. McCARTHY: We went out to tender and hired a broker to sell the aircraft and they were sold through a broker. We tendered for the broker then he went around where there were contacts and sold the aircraft for us.

MS BETTNEY: This is somewhat similar to - you know, the flip side of what we are doing when buying a used vessel, a boat. It is a kind of specialized market and you usually do work through brokers on something like this.

MR. FRENCH: Page 84, Government Purchasing Agency, 5.1.01, Salaries is up, $1,284,900 to $1,311,200.

MS BETTNEY: We had vacancies. I believe there was a director's position at the - no, that wasn't a director's position.

I'm thinking of Printing and Micrographic Services. Ramona, do you want to comment? It was vacancies.

MS COLE: It is only a small amount of money. It was probably one buyer position that was vacant but we do still hope to fill it. We have had a freeze on as you know and we haven't been able to fill them.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services was $45,000, it is now $30,000: What are talking about here again?

MS COLE: That is the auctioneer's fees. The Government Purchasing Agency basically handles all the auctions for government. Up until 1995-1996 we followed a practice of basically storing a lot of old office furniture and equipment. That was costing us money to store it, so we decided early in 1995-1996 to have more frequent auctions. We have a contract with an auctioneer whereby we pay a certain percentage of the revenue, of the take. Last year we actually spent $45,000. Because most of the old surplus furniture is now gone we think we will spend less this year on it, we will need less number of auctions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I interject? What percentage do you give the auctioneer?

MS COLE: I don't have the numbers right here, and the percentage varies based on the type of equipment. There is a certain percentage for heavy equipment auctions, there is a certain percentage for office furniture. There was a new contract, I believe, just recently in the last few months and I don't know what the details of it are. I think under the old contract it ranged somewhere from 2 per cent to 6 per cent, depending on the type of equipment that was sold.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, $184,300. Exactly what is that for? It is up by $24,300.

MS BETTNEY: Go ahead, Ramona.

MS COLE: That covers advertising. The bulk of it is for advertising. GPA goes out and does all of our tenders for us, so that would cover a fair chunk of that.

MR. FRENCH: Jack, I think you have one question down further, before I go on to the next page.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. With respect to 5.1.01.12, Information Technology. You had $271,400 budgeted, you spent $337,400, and you have budgeted $345,500. This Information Technology program has been ongoing in government for the past number of years. I just have a note here: How long is this going to continue, spending this kind of money on the Information Technology program?

MS COLE: The money that has been spent there in the past is for the purchasing system, the regular ongoing production costs for the purchasing system. It is a computerised system. The reason that it is increased is because we are in the process of implementing a new system called the CAMMS, Computer Assisted Materials Management System, which will give us the added benefit of being able to provide some supplier information which we hope to be able to use for supplier development. So if you have somebody who wants to start a small business in the Province they can go to the Government Purchasing Agency and get some more detailed information on what the demand is for specific types of products.

MR. J. BYRNE: Was that the only section that covered Information Technology with this department?

MS COLE: No. There is Information Technology money in other divisions, and basically it is computer costs for operating our ongoing systems.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, but how much longer are we going to spend that kind of money to get a system that would basically suit the requirements or needs of the government in, say, the next five to ten years? Are we going to have to continue to spend $350,000? I mean, in every department - last night in the Department of Finance, every subhead was Information Technology.

MS COLE: It isn't for development, or a lot of it isn't. Every now and then you get an amount for development, but most of those expenditures are for ongoing production costs, ongoing running of the system. We have to pay NISL to actually operate the systems for us.

MR. J. BYRNE: Now we are getting to it, NISL. I should go back the past few years, I suppose, and make some comparisons, before NISL took over. That might be interesting. Anyway, thank you.

MR. FRENCH: Page 85.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh no, I'm sorry, on page 84: Can we continue?

Under Supply Centre, 5.1.02, Supplies, you had $575,900 budgeted, you spent $725,900. The first question is why the difference. Secondly, estimated for 1996-1997 you have $779,300. Why the increase? In particular, if this is for government supplies, generally for all government departments, I suppose, Works, Services and Transportation, when government is decreasing, when we saw 204 civil servants in this department alone let go, and there have been thousands over the past few years I suppose - this year in particular it is up to 1,500. Why would we be budgeting a larger amount of money for supplies when the actual size of government is decreasing?

MS BETTNEY: Do you want to try that one?

MR. GRANTER: I will have a stab at it. I think a big part of that relates to the actual increase in prices for things like paper.

MR. J. BYRNE: A good answer.

MS COLE: Well, that is the bulk of it. The supplies that are included here are what we order through the Supply Centre for all government departments. Most government departments for things other than photo copier paper and printed forms, go and order themselves. So the money is within their own departments. This is basically photo copier paper, printed form across government, the typical voucher forms and this type of thing. The cost of a box of paper last September increased from $24.75 to $42.50; as a result there was a big increase.

If you look down below, Revenue is also up by $200,000 because whatever we spend on that paper we recharge back to the other departments when we ship the paper out to them.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, okay, increased cost to paper or what have you. With 1,500 people in the civil service, and more, if you look at the figures that have been quoted over the past, say, three or four years since I got involved with this, you are looking at maybe 2,000 people less filling out those forms, so obviously there have to be less forms to be filled and less forms required or what have you.

MS COLE: That is not necessarily the case. There are not necessarily less forms to be filled out, it just means that the people who are left have to fill out more.

MR. J. BYRNE: They fill them out faster.

MS. COLE: Well they have to fill out more.

AN HON. MEMBER: They spent longer hours.

MS BETTNEY: Some of the people are driving trucks and not filling out forms.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am disappointed in that one.

MS BETTNEY: It is getting late, Jack.

MR. FRENCH: Page 85, Salaries, from $760,500 to $839,800. Why the increase?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, that is the area that I started to refer to earlier where we have been carrying vacant positions in the Print Shop, and anticipating that we have to staff the Print Shop and bring it up to the normal component. There has been a director position at Printing Services that has not been staffed over the past year. One person actually has been carrying the major bulk of the management of the Print Shop operation. We will have to staff that to a normal level.

MR. FRENCH: Under Supplies, from $408,900 down to $389,400: We are talking about I guess supplies for the Print Shop.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, anything special.

MS. COLE: No, that is a pretty well standard reduction.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services - here we go again - $384,000 to $434,600.

MS BETTNEY: The funding that is in there is for maintenance agreements on printing equipment. I cannot say offhand what the reason is for the increase. I would assume that the maintenance costs are going up. We can check it out and see what the details are.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: Just let me add to that: The equipment is getting so old now that we almost, well not almost, we have to have parts made when something breaks. So we are into increasing maintenance cost.

MR. FRENCH: Under Mail Services, Salaries again has increased by $17,000.

MS BETTNEY: Again that is a vacant position. You will note, it is the same as what was budgeted in 1995-1996.

MR. FRENCH: Transportation and Communications, down from $446,600 to $116,700.

MS BETTNEY: That is a change in accounting practices with relation to the Department of Social Services, and it just reflects the fact that now it will be coming out of their budget, not ours.

MS COLE: If you look below, the revenue is also down.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, up to $179,000 from $118,500.

MS COLE: Maintenance agreements again on the equipment, and the equipment again is getting a lot older.

MR. FRENCH: Jack's favourite, Information Technology, $27,900 down to $500.

MS COLE: Yes, the $27,900 in the past was actually part of the maintenance agreements. We had it included under the wrong main object and this year we have budgeted for it properly.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, page 86, Realty Services, Salaries, from $196,900 down to $163,700: I guess that's just adjustments in -

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Then down under the Queen's Printer, we go by $30,000-odd.

MS BETTNEY: That's right, there was a vacancy in the Queen's Printer as well which was being covered off by the person who was doing the management of the print shop. Again, as I said, it is not a situation that we can allow to continue indefinitely.

MR. FRENCH: So that person now works directly for the Queen's Printer?

MS BETTNEY: In the Budget - go ahead George.

MR. GREENLAND: What we have is really the Queen's Printer acting as a director of Printing Services and also I think one other management position and graphic supervisor as well. So we basically have two management positions vacant and one individual doing his best to hold down the fort. As the minister says, we have to take some action in this regard in the near future.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, Purchased Services from $175,500 to $190,500.

MS COLE: Most of that would be for the actual printing of The Gazette, the legislation and the requirement for 1995-1996 which was down a little bit on revised. We were trying to ensure that we did not overspend.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Grants and Subsidies, from $400,600 down to $300,600.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, you are over on Pippy Park?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Again, that is simply a Cabinet decision to reduce the funding allocation for the grant to the Pippy Park Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I ask a question on that one? If they are down $100,000, is there any thought that you know of being given to a user pay system in the park to make up the difference?

MS BETTNEY: I have met with the chairman and, of course, it is up to the board and the directors to determine how they will absorb the reduction in the funding that they have. I do believe they are looking at some alternatives with respect to revenue generation but they have to be careful to preserve the integrity of what the park was intended to be. George do you wish to comment because you are involved with that board?

MR. GREENLAND: Yes, I am not quite sure what you mean. If you mean a general user fee, if you want to walk through the park, I think it is fair to say no.

MR. J. BYRNE: Ski trails in winter -

MR. GREENLAND: There are some opportunities we are exploring as a commission to see if we can raise some revenues by having the private sector go into the park and run some of these things. We are looking at concessions, a possible small increase in the trailer park which is a big revenue generator for us, and we are involved with the Public Golf Association, with a canteen if you want, I think halfway through the golf course this year. So we expect to raise a few more dollars and we have to cut some expenses.

MR. J. BYRNE: Since you are familiar with that, what kind of a budget does it take to operate the park?

MR. GREENLAND: Well this number is throwing me off a little but the general operating budget is in the range of $1 million; $400,000 traditionally has come from the government and about $600,000 is raised in outside revenue. That is our current account, the operating budget.

MR. FRENCH: Under the Capital, Park Development, from $400,600 down to $300,600.

MS BETTNEY: Again, we are going through a process there of needing to acquire property. We are simply reducing the amount of capital that we have available for that purpose this year and they will adjust their acquisition accordingly.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the acquirement of property, how much land is actually available in the park at this present time for C.A. Pippy Park to purchase because I know there are restrictions on development there?

MR. GREENLAND: I am not sure. I cannot really answer your question in the sense of giving you a definite answer. What happens with a house, if you have a domestic property or a home, then you come to the commission and of course if the commission does not buy it, it may decide not to buy it, it will allow you to put that house on the market. In the case of vacant land, it must be sold to the government. I think right now we are probably negotiating with three home-owners. To be honest with you, I cannot give you a definite answer, but there is nobody knocking down - well, one or two people are knocking on the door very seriously, and there are a lot of other people kind of talking to us, seeing if it is worth their while to sell the property.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because what I am thinking is that with the amount of land that is available, with that amount of money, $300,000 a year to purchase land, it is going to be a long while before you really make any substantial headway. You mentioned there vacant land: Does it go for market value? Are people getting the market value for their land?

MR. GREENLAND: Believe it or not, the pace of buying land in the park has slowed substantially.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know.

MR. GREENLAND: The people who are there now are inclined to want to stay there - as a matter of fact, the minister can attest to this - because they formed their own homeowners' association. They have become very active about things in the park which is, from our point of view I guess, a good feature. There is nothing necessarily wrong; it gives you feedback. So there has really been a slow down in the number of people who are trying to get out of the park, and the properties which are available.

What was the other question? I am sorry, I lost part of your question.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I think you pretty well addressed it. You were actually getting into answering my next question, I think, and that was with respect to the zoning. The minister got into it with respect to - you would know what I am saying, probably moreso.

Under the Municipalities Act there is a section: If you restrict somebody from developing or selling, or whatever the case may be, you can force the municipality to buy the land - I cannot remember what the section of the act it is now. You started to address it. Is there anybody trying coming to government, trying to force government to buy the land, like larger tracks of land? You started to say there are very few people coming forward to sell their land.

MR. GREENLAND: No, I know the section of the municipal act you are referring to. That section does not exist in the Pippy Park Act. No, as a matter of fact, we have had quite a bit of difficulty with some residents of the park with the Ring Road, in terms of having to take the land they did not want to give us. So there are not a lot of people knocking on the door to sell us hundreds of thousands of acres.

To answer your other question, which I just remembered, the process for the evaluation for the land is fairly well set in that when the land is evaluated it is evaluated as if the park did not exist today. Not that it never existed, but if you were buying it today, it would be the same as if you were buying it anywhere else in the city. So the park does not necessarily - and I say this a little guardedly, because people would argue otherwise - devalue the price of the land that you would get from government.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, that is it, I guess, from our side. I would like to thank you for your indulgence by letting us go on, and I thank the minister and her staff for their answers, and we will await the questions to which you are going to supply the answers.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank the minister for her time. We got through this a bit quicker than I had anticipated, because last year when I was asking the same types of questions to the previous minister, he was a bit more long-winded, I suppose.

I would like to make a comment with respect to the staff. I can obviously see that the minister was well briefed on the issues in her department. Obviously the staff had to do a lot of work on that, and I would like to congratulate them on a job well done.

I received a lot of answers. Some I did not really - how can I put it to be diplomatic? Well, let's just say it might require further investigation, and that is what this is all about. In the meantime, I say, a job well done.

Thank you.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you.

I would add to the comments in terms of the staff support that I have had here tonight and in leading up to it, in the information that I have been provided through the whole process. Thank you very much.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, on that note, considering the comprehensive fashion in which our colleagues from the opposite side of the House have dealt with the matter at hand tonight, and the brevity and effectiveness of the minister and her staff in providing the answers, I would like to move that we deal with the line items in the budget for Works, Services and Transportation.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through to 5.3.02, carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Before I adjourn, I think you have been presented with the minutes from the last meeting?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

CHAIR: Can we have a motion to adopt?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Before we adjourn I, too, want to thank the minister and her staff. The answers were very comprehensive. I think that you have answered all the questions. Believe it or not, I think the two questioners are impressed. I am impressed.

MR. FRENCH: I hope they were impressed with the questioners.

CHAIR: We don't want to get too carried away. We have some more meetings to do. At the end of these, it will be decided.

Thank you very much, and have a safe journey home.

On motion, Committee adjourned.