The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. R. Wiseman): Order, please!

I guess it is time we get started.

My name is Ralph Wiseman. I am the MHA for Topsail and the Chairman for the Government Services Committee. I am told we do not have to conduct elections because we are not a new Chair; we were the Committee last year and things have not changed.

I guess we will follow the normal procedure that we have followed over the years; we will probably meet until 10:00, which is three hours from now, and probably take a break, if everybody is agreeable, at 8:30.

We normally have the minister's opening remarks for fifteen minutes and those who are responding will have fifteen minutes to respond; we will move back and forth between each Committee member for ten minutes if they have questions. If they do not, then we will just stay until all the questions have been asked and satisfactory answers have been given.

I will begin by having the Committee introduce themselves, beginning with the Vice-Chair.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am Jack Byrne, Vice-Chair and MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. FRENCH: I am Bob French, MHA for Conception Bay South.

MR. SMITH: Gerald Smith, MHA for Port au Port.

MR. OLDFORD: Doug Oldford, MHA for Trinity North.

MR. SPARROW: Anthony Sparrow, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's.

CHAIR: I want to welcome the minister and her staff. Minister, if you wish, you may introduce your people and proceed.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To my right is the Deputy Minister, John Abbott. I think most of you are familiar with two faces you would recognize from last year's proceedings: Terry Murphy, the ADM for Transportation and George Greenland, the ADM for Works. Seated behind me are two new faces who would not have been at last year's proceedings: we have Gordon Murphy directly behind me and to my left - Gordon is the Director responsible for Finances and Human Resources - and with him is Alex English, the Manager of Financial Operations.

WITNESS: He is Terry McCarthy, you said Terry Murphy.

MS BETTNEY: Did I say Terry Murphy?

WITNESS: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. Terry McCarthy - I will correct it for the record. Sorry, Terry.

MR. McCARTHY: No problem.

MS BETTNEY: Now then, would you like me to proceed?

CHAIR: Yes, go ahead. You may lead off with a fifteen-minute statement if you have one, or whatever you choose to do with that fifteen minutes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. I would just like to make a few comments by way of an overview for the 1997-1998 Budget for the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

Having looked at all areas of our Budget and gone through the program review process, for the most part the 1997-1998 Budget for my department reflects business as usual with a few exceptions. You will note from the Budget document that we are no longer maintaining cabin roads as a Budget decision this year; we have parked two Canso water bombers, again in an effort to save money from our operational budget. By way of additions to our Budget, we have expanded the food-lift subsidy for Coastal Labrador and including Great Harbour Deep, and we have expanded, of course, our responsibility for marine services in assuming responsibility for the Labrador Coastal Services from the Federal Government.

We have also expanded highway construction and we have that budget augmented with the announcement of the Labrador transportation initiative and the total now for the budget for the Island and Labrador is $97 million. We are making other incidental, in a sense, but other operational and administrative changes within the budget to save in the order of $5.9 million out of our operational budget of $133 million, and that includes combining some functions at headquarters in terms of some of the divisions and closing the stock room, saving on maintenance and building maintenance as well. So overall, as a department, coming out of the budget exercise, we had to issue fifty lay-off notices to our staff; however, I mention at this point, that because of the voluntary departure program, we are now able to retain some of those staff as well. So we are making adjustments to accommodate the efficiencies that are required in the budget, and we will be dealing with the human resource issue as we go, depending on the resources we have on hand.

We have, as members are aware, completed a detailed analysis during the past year of all of the highway needs in the Province, and we will soon be releasing a multi-year roads development plan for the Province. We have the basis of that established in the assessments that were done of all the provincial roads in the Province, but through our review of the Newfoundland transportation initiative, also of the highways and the regional trunk roads.

As a result of our program review, we are, of course, going to be just focusing in on our core services. We consider them to be highway construction and maintenance, our ferry services, building and property management. The key issue for us and the challenge will be to determine what the best way is to deliver those services. In that regard, of course, there has been an issue that has received considerable attention during the last few days with respect to information that was provided to our employees in the information circular that was distributed last week. We are going to be doing a detailed analysis of the cost-effectiveness of using the private sector to deliver some of these services over the coming months.

One final area we will be addressing as well over the coming year is the continued maintenance and snow clearing of provincial roads that are within municipal boundaries. As you heard during the discussions again, I believe, during last week, there is an allocation of funding within the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs this year to accommodate agreements that we can work with municipalities for them to assume responsibility for provincial roads within their areas. This is an initiative that we will be working in conjunction with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to try to achieve, within the context of the money that has been reserved for that purpose with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Finally, on one of our other major functions, ferry services, we plan to maintain the same service levels as we have in the past year for our ferry services. However, this also assumes that the rate structure that was implemented a couple of years ago will also be maintained, unless there are offsetting savings to compensate for the rate increases that have been planned for.

Other than that, gentlemen, I think those are some of the highlights as I see it of the 1997-1998 budget for my department. As I said in the beginning, it reflects very much just a business as usual approach to the major functions of the department, with the difference, I guess, or the comment I would add, being the areas that we are looking at on how to deliver service will be something we will continue to study over the year, but do not have a direct budget implication for 1997-1998.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Before we go on, I should mention that when you do speak or ask a question, could you please first identify yourself so that the recorder upstairs can pick up the recording? Okay, Jack, if you want to respond you are on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, I have a number of questions I was planning on asking, I have pages and pages here, as I normally do, but Bob French is our critic, so I am going to let him start the questioning.

MR. FRENCH: I guess, Minister, the first question I would like to pose to you tonight is: What amount of money has been paid out to settle the Trans City lawsuits to the various companies, which companies, and how much money each one received?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to have to refer that question. I would not have that information at hand tonight. It may be something we have to get back to you on. John, would you - pardon?

MR. ABBOTT: (Inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: Yes, I would not consider that to be a question that I would respond to here. I presume that the Minister of Justice would be the appropriate responder to that question.

MR. FRENCH: The reason I raised the question here, Minister, is that in the Estimates meeting for the Justice department, my colleague, John Ottenheimer, asked the Minister of Justice what the pay-outs were and who received the money. The minister said he did not know and that the money for the Trans City affair was paid out to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, and that question should be asked of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. So that is why I ask the question here.

MS BETTNEY: I can only say to you, my senior officials here are advising me that we have not paid out money with respect to this particular issue, so I simply do not have the information to be able to respond to you.

MR. FRENCH: So it is not being paid out through your department, then?

MS BETTNEY: Not to my knowledge, and you are looking at the senior officials of the department who are confirming that.

MR. FRENCH: Well, because that is what was - again, just to repeat myself - but that is what Mr. Ottenheimer was told in Justice by the minister that the money was being paid out through your department and that it was a question that was better asked of Works, Services and Transportation than it was of Justice. That would include, of course, legal fees and penalties. So you would have no idea of what that -

MS BETTNEY: No, Sir.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

CHAIR: So, Bob, did you request that through the Public Accounts Committee?

MR. FRENCH: No, no. When the Estimates were done, because we figured it was a legal question - John raised a question, as I said, of the minister, and then the Minister of Justice, Mr. Decker, referred us back to this committee here. Okay, I will give him that answer and we will carry on.

Minister, I would like to start on page 64. I will start with 01, Salaries. Which portions are going to be, or have been, eliminated to reduce salaries by $172,300?

MS BETTNEY: That reflects a reduction of eight positions in Administrative Support.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, maybe if I could ask probably at a later date if you could supply me with a list of exactly what positions they were?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, we can supply it. I do not believe we would have that detailed a listing here tonight. Okay?

MR. FRENCH: No, well, I figured you would not anyway.

Professional Services have been or will be eliminated to a reduction of $19,000. Exactly which professional services would they be?

MS BETTNEY: This item refers to an estimate for arbitration costs. We have been assigned responsibility for those costs and that is where we have captured it under Professional Services.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services increased by $59,000 - that is on line 05 in the 1996-1997 Budget. It was $1,000 and it went to $60,000.

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I could ask the deputy to respond to that one.

MR. ABBOTT: In 1996-1997 we undertook two studies in the department and that was the amount we spent there.

MR. FRENCH: Would that have been studies of the department?

MR. ABBOTT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: John, could you be -

MR. ABBOTT: The two that we did; one was for looking at our management function to see - in terms of getting ready for program review and the second one is for Air Services, and the same thing, looking at what options we should explore during the program review exercise.

MR. FRENCH: What actions were taken to reduce Information Technology by $269,200?

MS BETTNEY: That amount that we have allocated in 1997-1998 is an amount that again we have been allocated by Treasury Board, and we will be making the necessary adjustment to fit that particular allocation in our budget.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Which purchased services have been contracted to effect an increase of $56,300?

MS BETTNEY: Which item are you referring to?

MR. FRENCH: That is 06.

MS BETTNEY: 06?

MR. FRENCH: It has gone from $218,100 to $274,400.

MS BETTNEY: That is an estimated increase in our printing services for the department for 1997-1998.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

In 01, the next one down, the salaries increased by $43,100. That is in 01, Salaries, $306,600 from $263,500.

MS BETTNEY: I believe, and I can ask the deputy to confirm this or to correct it if there is a problem with it, but my understanding is that we were holding vacant positions in this particular division during 1996-1997 which reflected the reduced expenditure over that time period, and our salary allocation for 1997-1998 reflects what we feel we will need in the way of employees back to its normal level for that time period.

MR. FRENCH: Would you have any idea, Minister, of what type of individual you would be hiring for this? What would this person here be doing?

MS BETTNEY: It would be a general transportation policy analyst. We tend to have a general position. We also have some specialized positions in the area of air and marine, and I guess in roads as well. Then we have a generalist position as well.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies have been or will be eliminated to effect a reduction of roughly $5,400. I just wonder why that was - just under Grants and Subsidies.

MS BETTNEY: The Grants and Subsidies allocation covers the grant to St. John's City Council for the HUB disabled transportation system, and it also covers our participation in the Atlantic Provinces transportation group.

I do not know if there are other aspects of the grants and subsidies that are significant. Primarily, it is those two where we provide an operating grant to TAC, which is the Transportation Association of Canada, and the operating grant to the HUB, and then our involvement in the Atlantic group.

MR. FRENCH: How much would our grant to the HUB be?

MS BETTNEY: Our grant to the HUB transportation is $94,500.

MR. FRENCH: And we are reducing that by...

MS BETTNEY: No, that is held constant from last year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. So the $5,400 would be -

WITNESS: That is a reduction in the fourth item there.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. I believe last year we hosted a provincial meeting for the Atlantic transportation group, and that is probably why it was a bit higher than it has been budgeted for this year.

MR. FRENCH: Page 65, in Salaries, the salaries have gone up by $134,100 and I would just like to know which positions will be added to increase the salaries by that amount.

MS BETTNEY: I think one of the things you will see as a constant throughout our presentation here is that under the revised budget figures for 1996-1997 consistently we are coming in under what was budgeted for 1996-1997, and that was very much a conscious delivered strategy on our part in terms of trying to save money as we were going through the year knowing that we had a very tight budget. Therefore, when positions became vacant for whatever reason, we tried to hold them as long as we possibly could without refilling, and consequently our budget figures for the end of the year went down.

In this particular instance, we are talking about the budgeted figures for salaries under Administration for Road Maintenance going back pretty well to the original level that was budgeted for 1996-1997. We saved in operating salaries, overall last year, $3.5 million by just taking the measure that when it became vacant, we would try to hold it as long as we possibly could without refilling, and that was our overall savings under the Salaries caption. So as I said, as you go through this, you will see from time to time that we were down on our revised figures but in our budget for this year, we are budgeting to go back to what we considered to be the level that we need.

MR. FRENCH: So, would we have any indication of how many positions this $134,000 might be, and exactly what they might be?

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask one of my officials--Terry or Gordon, if you can comment on that?

MR. McCARTHY: I do not have the information right now. It is something I would have to get.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Would you send that to me, Terry? You know, we are probably going to run into a few things as we go through tonight for which we do not readily have the answers, so you could just add that to the other one and when you have them all together, if you would be kind enough to send them over to me?

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR: Go ahead, Jack.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, when the (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no. This could save time. I mean, it is either deal with it now or deal with it later back and forth. I mean, you are dealing with this page now and having to finish with it and come back to it - you know, it is up to yourselves.

CHAIR: Well, you are handing your time over to Bob and if Bob wants to give up his time now, he has only about five minutes, so if you want to take the remaining five minutes with the (inaudible) that is fine by me.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Well, the next question I have is on 2.1.01.10, I guess, Grants and Subsidies. There are Grants and Subsidies there for $200,000. May I ask what they are for?

MS BETTNEY: These are Grants that we provide to local roads boards and it also includes the Subsidy that we provide for snow clearing and grooming on the trails in Labrador. This is held at the same level as we provided last year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I wonder if I could have a list, Terry, of the local roads that will be covered off under this?

MR. McCARTHY: I can provide that for you; actually, it is a grant to mainly isolated communities like François, McCallum on the Coast of Labrador, for local roads boards.

MS BETTNEY: It would tend to vary from year to year, depending on the particular project for which the community was applying to us.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Support Services, salaries again, there is an increase of $132,200, probably if you could send me, Terry, the - I guess you would have to look up what positions they are and so on, which would make the increase. So if you would be kind enough to send me those.

In Traffic Engineering And Signs, Salaries again are up $38,200. Is that just one position we are creating? You know, are we looking for some kind of a person in signage and so on? You know, it says: work related to highways signage, pavement markings and, for the love of God, send somebody up to Foxtrap and put the lines on the road before I am killed or my wife is killed or somebody in our community is killed - while I am on that one.

MS BETTNEY: Yes. This is a bad time of the year for line marking on roads.

MR. FRENCH: I know. I know it is, and in Foxtrap, you cannot see them, Minister, I am telling you, and Ralph can attest to that, too.

MS BETTNEY: The figure that you see in Salaries for 01, reflects a reduction of one position from what was budgeted last year. You will note that it was $435,800 budgeted for 1996-1997. We have reduced that by one position, but again, specifically which position, we will have to follow up with you.

MR. FRENCH: It says Revenue - Provincial, $175,000. I am just curious as to what that revenue is.

MS BETTNEY: I am going to make a guess at that one now. I believe it is revenue we receive for purchase of signs from municipalities. Am I on with that one?

WITNESS: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, yes. We do provide signs to municipalities upon request, but they pay us for the cost of those signs. This is the estimated revenue associated with it.

MR. FRENCH: The next page, 2.1.04.03, Transportation and Communications. The budget for Transportation and Communications was exceeded by $25,000 last year. I just wondered what would generate that.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, gentlemen, who would like to respond to that?

MR. MCCARTHY: That is mainly travel, telephone, those types of charges. Travel costs for our transportation workers depend on, sometimes, how many breakdowns you have, how many times you have to send a float out, or things like that. The figure varies a little every year. If we overrun in this area we transfer it from somewhere else.

MR. FRENCH: Supplies - which have been or will be eliminated to save $1,096,200.

MS BETTNEY: Maybe what we are talking about with these supplies is the supply of gravel and asphalt for summer road maintenance. That reflects a decrease in what we will have available for road maintenance this summer.

MR. FRENCH: Just to ask a question. Would that affect, I guess, the quality of some of our roads? We are going to reduce here by 33 per cent.

MS BETTNEY: It will certainly affect the condition of the roads that we maintain if we adhere to this. We are in the process now of developing a maintenance plan for our roadwork for the summer. When the officials have completed that, I will be reviewing it to see that we are able to meet the priorities we need to have. I am hoping we will be able to do that within the context of what we have allocated here, the $2.7 million.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services has increased by $34,000.

MS BETTNEY: I did not particularly look at that one specifically. Terry.

MR. MCCARTHY: Purchased Services mainly for the hire of the equipment. It is actually a decrease from last year's budget. We have taken a decrease as part of some of the general cut in this maintenance area. Again, last year we managed the money and only spent the money if we had to.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

CHAIR: Okay, do you want to rotate? If the other members have some questions? Do you have any questions? Go ahead. I am recognizing you, Gerald. We can come back then to -

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, there are three points I want clarification of. In your opening statement you referenced the cabin roads.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. SMITH: What exactly are these cabin roads, and how was that money administered?

MS BETTNEY: There are a number, 363 kilometres, I believe, of roads in the Province that we have designated as class 4 roads. They fall into a couple of categories. You would typically recognize them as cabin roads, and that is why I referred to them in that manner. They could also be roads that were by-passed by new roads and intended to be abandoned but, for whatever reason, were not completely abandoned. We were continuing to provide maintenance to them.

The manner of maintenance that we would have provided to these class 4 roads was a couple of gradings during the summertime for summer maintenance and in some cases we were actually providing some snow clearing on some of these roads as well. This whole item represented over $500,000 in our budget this year. The department felt that in dealing with its priorities and attempting to arrive at some degree of consistency in terms of class 4 roads that we would withdraw completely from providing maintenance both summer and winter to any class 4 roads in the Province that fit roughly those two categories. Now, there will be some anomalies. We will deal with those as they arise and are brought to our attention but for the most part we should not, during this year, be providing either summer or winter maintenance to what we would know as cabin roads and other roads that should have been abandoned when the full-time year-round road was established.

MR. SMITH: I am curious as to how the money would have been administered, because you said there were 370 kilometres -

MS BETTNEY: Three hundred and sixty-three kilometres is our best estimate of the volume of roads that we have under this category.

MR. SMITH: Three hundred and sixty-three kilometres, $500,000, obviously there is no way that was there any sort of ongoing - you mentioned things like snow clearing and gradings. There is no way you could do that - was this on a request basis like from a region? Or was it budgeted out for the - I did not know anything about them, and the first I heard of these cabin roads is when they were eliminated from this year's Budget. That is why I am curious and the thing that really intrigues me is that one of these roads is in my district and I know what I have gone through since 1993 trying to get anything done with the road. I guess I am more concerned right now as to - if that $500,000 - if there was some money there I could have been getting for the last three years that I did not get.

MR. McCARTHY: The money was budgeted in our general maintenance program. There was no separate category that singled out the different classes of roads. All the maintenance budgeted is in this heading you see there, Maintenance and Repair. It is not in ice control, it is all in that budget. That is why there was $500,000 taken out for those cabin roads and that is why some of the figures are adjusted, to reflect that change in the budget, taken out of these roads.

MS BETTNEY: That would have been a prorated Budget expense, I would suggest to you, and this is our estimate of what we will save in maintenance by not having to provide the resources to maintain those.

MR. SMITH: The thing that intrigues me, the one on your list that is from my district, The Blue Beach Road, for as long as I have known, it has been classified as a fisheries access road. Whenever I have gone to get repairs on that road in the past, the procedure always was to make the request to the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture who would then contract the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to do the necessary work. It was my understanding that there would somehow be an internal exchange that would look after it. Now, I am just wondering, if that was the situation with that particular road, I mean, are we just talking about - is this just a paper exercise here? I am really confused about this whole issue because I know in my case the only one that is on my list, I really do not - when it was classified as a cabin road that was really a -

MS BETTNEY: Surprise.

MR. SMITH: Yes, it is.

MR. McCARTHY: Fisheries access roads were not supposed to be included in the list and for the most part they were not but there were a few that got on the list, like Blue Beach. I recognize it as a fisheries access road but that has since been taken off. I have not given it to the minister yet but that will come off the list.

MR. SMITH: So that was -

MR. McCARTHY: That is a fisheries access road.

MR. SMITH: Okay, so that takes care of - so that was put there in error on that list?

MR. McCARTHY: Correct.

MR. SMITH: Okay.

Minister, you also referenced in your opening statement the agreement with regard to secondary roads right now between your department and Municipal Affairs. How exactly is that to proceed? The money for that is not carried in your budget, that is carried in the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs?

MS BETTNEY: That is correct.

MR. SMITH: How is that whole process supposed to work?

MS BETTNEY: Minister Reid, I believe, spoke to this in the House last week when he was announcing the infrastructure program. There was a category in the infrastructure works which represented $2 million which was allocated to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to indicate that the money, that $2 million, has been reserved for these kinds of agreements with municipalities to effect the transfer of provincial roads. In addition to that, we have indicated as a department that we are going to secure and find within our existing resources $3 million additional, so that there will be a total of $5 million available for working arrangements with the municipalities to take over the responsibility for provincial roads.

Essentially, what I am doing when I am talking to communities on this subject is encouraging them, if they are interested in pursuing this, to contact primarily the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. They can also contact my department. We will be working co-operatively with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to work out substantive arrangements around these agreements, and any other aspect of agreements that the municipalities are negotiating with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

In terms of how people should proceed with it - either a direct contact to the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs or to my department. The process will be that we will work in conjunction with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to address the overall needs of communities in relation to their financial arrangements. One aspect of it will be the provincial roads piece, and what kind of agreement we are able to work out to hand over responsibility for those.

MR. SMITH: Thank you. One other item, if you could. The air ambulance program. Last year there was a review process, I think the gist of which was to examine this whole thing from the point of view as to whether or not privatization was a viable option. Here this evening, I think your Deputy Minister mentioned in response to one of the questions from my colleague that one of the studies undertaken was in relation to this. I wonder if you could tell us, in terms of the review that has been taken with regard to this whole program, what the department's plans are. I would imagine for this year, judging from the fact that we do have the allocations in the budget, it is going to be status quo, but does this mean we have given up on privatization as a viable option?

MS BETTNEY: At this point, we have included it in the budget with the same financial allocation. That reflects the fact that we believe we will have to spend the same amount for Air Ambulance services in 1997-1998 as we have spent in the past. When we were going through the process of examining the Air Ambulance Service to determine whether we would privatize that and put it out to tender, a couple of the factors that were associated with it changed in midstream, more or less.

Over the last month-and-a-half we have been informed that the flying hours under pressurized conditions for the King Air air ambulance, which is the main aircraft that provides air ambulance out of the air services division, has now changed, and that it is possible, with a refit, to extend the life of the King Air for air ambulance purposes.

When we started on this process of looking at the air ambulance service and how we should deliver it, one of the driving factors was the fact that we expected to have a very limited flying life for the air ambulance, for the King Air. Now we have to consider how that changes, how we are approaching this. We are still in the process now of just re-examining where we will go with this.

I would suggest to you that we will make that decision in the near future, but I cannot, obviously, pinpoint when it will be made. Our budget position reflects the fact that we know what it costs us to continue to operate it ourselves. We would not expect to have to pay more for the service. Until we make the final determination now what to do with it, based on the new circumstances we are presented with, we will simply continue on.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Minister. That is it for me.

CHAIR: Doug?

Do you want to start back, Mr. Byrne, on the other heading?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

CHAIR: I understand that now the two of you will, for efficiency, together ask what questions you have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Back and forth, the same page.

CHAIR: You are going to just identify yourself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, the Member for Cape St. Francis. Minister, the explanation you gave with respect to Salaries, on page 65, how it decreased from 1996-1997, what was budgeted, and then increased again for 1997-1998. If a person wanted to be a bit cynical, in the three headings there, Administration, Support Services, and Traffic Engineering and Signs, with the amount of cuts in the administration, in government these past few years, one could say there is a number of people who have been let go, and more people being hired back on, in those positions. What is the possibility of that having been happening in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation? When I say that, I mean, if you are going to be cynical and political.

MS BETTNEY: Really, as I indicated to Mr. French, what we have tried to do within the department over the past year, given the constraints we were operating on, was get along as best we could. But we recognize in budgeting for the next year that there are certain positions we do have to have a staff complement for. The increase is not, as you can see, an increase over what was budgeted originally. It just retains the status quo, to all intents and purposes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The point I am making is that with the cuts that have been there, people could have been let go in the department - this could be happening in every department, I do not know - but I know I see a lot of new faces around this building when there are people being let go every day. People could be let go, the budget brought down, and people hired back in - politically-hired type of thing, is what I am saying. Is that happening or not? Yes or no?

MS BETTNEY: No Sir, that is not happening, to my knowledge.

MR. J. BYRNE: I hope not. A few other questions. In your opening remarks you talked about the Labrador coastal service. I would just like to get an explanation from yourself how you expect to see the long-term benefits to the Province and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, in particular, with the costs of that service.

MS BETTNEY: Are you talking the whole Labrador transportation initiative?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, basically, the money - the Labrador coastal service has just been privatized, has it not? Not privatized, but down-loaded to the Province, certain parts of it?

MS BETTNEY: We have accepted responsibility for the Labrador marine services, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is what I am asking. Can you explain how you can see that benefiting the people of this Province in the long haul?

MS BETTNEY: We received from the Federal Government a sum of $340 million in compensation for accepting responsibility for the marine services in Labrador. We recognize that in accepting that responsibility there is an ongoing cost associated to providing marine services, but marine is only one part of the transportation infrastructure in Labrador. There is a road network that is both existing and planned, and there is also an air service as well.

The benefit that we see with this as a province is that by having this funding up front, and it is a full up-front payment of $340 million, plus the also in-kind benefit of the vessels that we would receive responsibility for, permits us to develop a much needed transportation road network in Labrador which has long been desired and needed in Labrador to provide for transportation needs for people and the movement of goods and supplies.

We know that the sum of money we have received from the Federal Government is sufficient to do two major portions of the road work that is required, and still maintain and fund the level of marine service that will be required during the development of the road network. You will see a changing marine service in Labrador as the road system gets developed, because there will not be a need to provide the same kind -

MR. J. BYRNE: How much does it cost to operate that ferry service, at this point in time, yearly?

MS BETTNEY: Now, I am not really fresh on the details of the figures associated with the existing services.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) $13 million.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, the deputy minister tells me that the existing service - and yes, that would reflect the contract that we are assuming from the Federal Government with Marine Atlantic - is in the order of $12 million to $13 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many years before this new road network and new system is in place?

MS BETTNEY: There are two components to it. The road network that runs from Goose Bay to Labrador City will be completely upgraded to an all-weather gravel standard within three years. The road network on the coast, which also affects the marine service and the requirement for marine service, will be completed, we are estimating, within six years. At that point there will still be a gap in the middle which we have committed to funding and completing somewhere in that time frame and post- six years, so six to ten or twelve years, I would suggest.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you have twelve years at $15 million a year.

MS BETTNEY: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: You are looking at $15 million a year for twelve years; that is $180 million, is it?

MS BETTNEY: No, the requirement for marine services is going to change, I would suggest to you, even within the six-year time frame where the coastal access route is being developed, but particularly at the point where you have access from Red Bay to Cartwright. Then you are going to see an entirely different requirement for marine service on the Coast of Labrador, so six years is when you get to look at a different level of service requirement.

MR. J. BYRNE: Once those roads are constructed then you have road maintenance and snow-clearing and what have you, and the cost involved with that. I just have the question, if there is going to be as good a deal as you might want us to believe.

The other point I would like to make is that the same type of a deal was structured or cut for southern Newfoundland. There was supposed to be so much money, $50 million or $60 million, or whatever it was, to be set aside with the interest being used to operate the system, and that money was used last year to balance the budget - the year before last - so depending on how the government handles this, this could be a pretty bad deal for Newfoundland.

MS BETTNEY: I do not think there is any way you could look at this as a bad deal for Newfoundland when we are receiving, in cash, in one year, $340 million which we can then manage financially to accrue the benefits that we will need to put into the development of transportation in Labrador.

MR. J. BYRNE: Time will tell, I suppose.

The next question: You mentioned in your opening remarks, municipal roads, and the funding for municipal roads. I had a question to ask - how much was there - but it has been asked already and answered: $5 million - $2 million plus $3 million.

Back in 1993-1994, when I saw the 1994 Budget come down, there was one sentence in the Budget that I picked up on and I knew what was coming down the road with respect to the downloading to the municipalities of the connector roads and what have you; so I approached the towns in my district to put forth - I met with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to work out a deal with the department for the towns to take over responsibility for certain roads. Now the Town of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove - and you are familiar with this, and the deputy is familiar; everybody is familiar with it - there were three roads down there that worked out an agreement that the town was willing to take over responsibility for these. One of these, of course, is the Marine Drive in Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove, and with the Cabot Celebrations coming on this year, the road is in desperate condition. I met with you last Fall and told you and whoever about this, and seeing that there is $5 million there now - and also the Town of Flatrock, WindGap in Flatrock, is at the point where you are doing the normal speed limit on occasions you could be driving dangerously; the road is that bad. It is almost as bad, I suppose, as the Marine Drive in areas.

What kind of priorities are those roads going to get, in light of the fact that they were probably the first two towns to come in and work a deal with Works, Services and Transportation?

CHAIR: Is this a lobby? You are lobbying?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am asking questions -

CHAIR: I was curious.

MR. J. BYRNE: - legitimate questions to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation with respect to roads in the Province.

MS BETTNEY: This area is a high priority for us. We will be working at the officials' level to try to arrive at these agreements with these communities as well as others, particularly on the Avalon Peninsula as well. We are looking at having to really be strategic in how we focus our resources. That is why we have put aside this funding in the budget this year, to try to encourage communities and provide some incentives for them to be able to assume these roads that are within their own communities. That will sort of free up, to some extent, our resources to be able to focus more on the community access roads, the secondary roads and the Trans-Canada Highway.

MR. J. BYRNE: These are two towns that you do not have to encourage anymore. The deal has been struck. The department officials have been down and have done a study on the roads to see what was needed to be done; and agreement has been made that the roads would be taken over when this work is done.

MS BETTNEY: I would suggest to you then, that we will be following up with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and that we will have further discussions with the towns in question over the coming weeks, months.

MR. J. BYRNE: My colleague here has a question, I think, at this point.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, the road network in Labrador, when it is completed. What is the estimated cost of the total road network for Labrador?

MS BETTNEY: I am sorry, I missed your question.

MR. FRENCH: What is the total cost of the completed road network in Labrador? We mentioned, I think, $341 million dollars here from the Federal Government, and we mentioned like $15 million or $12 million a year to maintain the coastal service until we get up to a certain point. Overall, to complete the Trans-Labrador Highway, what is the estimated cost to do that road?

MS BETTNEY: The estimated cost for the two pieces that we consider we have funding for in the Labrador agreement is $190 million. That acknowledges that the connecting piece between Cartwright and Goose Bay will require an additional $177 million. That is not considered to be included in the funding we have received. However, the $190 million reflects the coastal access road from Red Bay to Cartwright, and the completion of the upgrading from Goose Bay to Labrador City - Wabush.

MR. FRENCH: So we are still going to have to come up with that extra money to complete it?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, for the piece that is the link in the middle. We have acknowledged and said right from the beginning that we will have to find the $177 million that is required to complete the Trans-Labrador Highway when the other pieces are finished.

MR. FRENCH: When the combined councils were in for meetings I think they met with possibly yourself and I think they met with Cabinet. They met with our caucus, I know that. They were talking about the whole network of roads in the Labrador region. It was a fairly high price tag on it. Have we done an estimate to exactly what the total road networking in Labrador will cost?

MS BETTNEY: That is what the figures I just gave you represent, what we have estimated, and it is, I think, a fairly reliable estimate.

MR. FRENCH: So it is roughly $500 million.

MS BETTNEY: Three hundred and sixty-seven million dollars, I believe, is the total. I am looking at $60 million for the Goose Bay to Labrador West piece. That is the existing road, bringing it up to an all-weather standard; $130 million for the Cartwright to Red Bay piece, and $177 million for the link in the middle. Does that add up to $367 million?

MR. FRENCH: Three hundred and sixty-seven million dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned funding in your opening statement and ferry services in the same funding as last year, but when you were speaking, I just had the feeling, for some reason or other - I do not know if it was your comments or not - but one statement you made was it is the same funding for this year as for the past year. I am wondering if we are going to see movements now to actually privatize more of the ferry services around the Island.

MS BETTNEY: I should make a correction. I believe my comments were that we would be able to retain the same service levels as the ferry service from last year. I believe that the funding you will note in the Budget has a decrease in the actually dollars that are allocated, but we are confident, as a department, that we will be able to work within that and still retain the same kind of service level to those communities which are serviced by the ferries, assuming again, that, it also includes the rate increases that were planned a couple of years ago for, I believe, a five-year implementation.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this funding that you are speaking of now, I know you do have some private, I suppose, people doing these rounds now and you will contract out to those people; so, will you have any government services that is now being done by the government, and paid for by the government, that we will see be privatized, in the next few years, with respect to ferry services to the islands?

MS BETTNEY: With respect to ferry services right now, we have a combination. We have the Southcoast ferry service which is operated by the private sector, and we have the number of other services including Bell Island and Fogo, Change Islands which is run by our own department.

The Budget plan that we have here with the finances and everything else that we have estimated, does not make any provision for, or presume, any privatization or any efforts in that area. It simply puts forward the same service-delivery mechanism that we have right now; it presumes that we can make some internal efficiencies to save some money, retain the same level of service to the communities but, we are out actively working with communities which are serviced by ferries right now, to try to better improve the ferry service to meet their needs. We have actually designated one of our transportation planning staff as a community liaison officer with the communities that are serviced by the ferry system to work with them to try to determine more closely what needs they have, and how we can better accommodate them within the context of the monies that we have allocated right now.

MR. J. BYRNE: But the question really is: Are there any discussions within the department now, along the lines of further privatizing government services with respect to ferries?

MS BETTNEY: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: No?

MS BETTNEY: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, good.

Let us go back to page 66, Grants and Subsidies under Maintenance and Repairs. Which grants and subsidies have been eliminated to reflect the reduction of $93,300?

MS BETTNEY: That $93,000 figure reflects the last payment that was made to the City of St. John's for roads that they took over the responsibility for, so the last payment was made in 1996-1997. There is no further provision in this year's budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. In this same section, 09, Allowances and Assistance, you had budgeted, I think, $150,000 and up to $225,000. Why were the allowances over the budget by $75,000?

MS BETTNEY: That reflects a couple of accident claims that we had to pay out in 1996-1997. We have again allocated a block amount in 1997-1998 which we would expect to be average or normal, but last year's experience was different. It went a little bit higher.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you say accident claims, could you be more specific?

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask one of my officials for some specifics here.

MR. McCARTHY: We do get sued from time to time for traffic accidents. Sometimes we settle out of court, and sometimes we are found liable in some cases. There are other claims. Sometimes we do damage to fences and some properties sometimes during their operations, so it is those types of liabilities that we incurred that are paid out of this heading.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to Snow and Ice Control, Salaries, I suppose the same explanation as previous for the increase there.

MS BETTNEY: Yes. The Salaries reflect just vacancies, but also a milder winter where we had to have less of a recall on our resources, and therefore, less cost.

MR. J. BYRNE: Nine hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars worth.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let me see. Supplies, 2.1.05.04. Why have supplies been reduced by $80,000? Well, salt and sand, I would imagine; because it was a good winter?

MS BETTNEY: The budgeted figure is reduced for 1997-1998.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Again, it is simply an estimate on our part that we are going to make fit.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services, 2.1.05.06. Why has Purchased Services increased by $1,067,000?

MS BETTNEY: There is a section of the Labrador highway which previously had been maintained by CF(L)Co. They are not going to be providing that maintenance this year. We have assumed responsibility for it, so we will be now contracting that maintenance, as we do the rest of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why would they not be having responsibility for that now if they did it in the past?

MR. McCARTHY: When the highway was opened five years ago on a year-round basis, we negotiated an agreement with CF(L)Co. to provide the winter maintenance on the section of the road from Churchill to Ross Bay Junction. Basically, that agreement was founded on - they used to have a siding in Esker and they used to have to keep their Esker road open. I think that place burnt. In lieu of rebuilding the place, they agreed to give us winter maintenance on the road for five years, but at the end of five years we would take over and then provide the year-round. We provide the summer maintenance now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Amount to be Voted, .02, Revenue - Provincial, $1,990,000. What is the source of this revenue?

MS BETTNEY: (Inaudible).

MR. McCARTHY: Two sources, mainly revenue from community councils where we provide the snow clearing service for them at a fee, and some work we did in Gros Morne Park for Parks Canada.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 67, Administration, 2.2.01.09, Allowances and Assistance. Which allowances and what assistance have been or will be eliminated to effect a reduction of $704,900?

MS BETTNEY: This is similar to the item under Snow and Ice Control where we put in for any claims that are made. There were a couple of items we had to pay out claims on in 1996-1997. We were aware of them going into the budget year and budgeted for them. We are not aware of any in this current fiscal year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you be more specific with respect to those claims?

MS BETTNEY: Again, I will have to ask one of the officials to comment on the specifics of the claims, if we have that information here.

MR. GREENLAND: I am reluctant to record the individual's name, but we did have a property claim whereby an individual slipped and fell. We ended up in court and basically, at the end of the exercise, we owed the gentleman I think between $700,000 and $800,000. I can get you the specifics.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I would like to get the specifics.

WITNESS: Did that come up last year?

MR. GREENLAND: Oh yes, the case is about two to three years old. It is not new. We were settling it the previous year, and carried over into last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I remember it coming up last year but I do not think we asked for or got the details at that time.

MR. GREENLAND: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think my time must be up by now.

CHAIR: Well, I wanted to give you as much time as I can. If members indicate that they want to ask questions then I will ask you to stop and go to the other member.

Doug, do you have some questions?

MR. OLDFORD: I have a question.

CHAIR: Okay, go ahead.

MR. OLDFORD: Minister, it relates to Project Management and Design on page 71.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: Yes.

This is a general question. Your project management and design people look after the design of new buildings and major renovations to existing buildings.

MS BETTNEY: This, on page 71, refers to our road construction, project management and design.

MR. OLDFORD: No, it is 3.1.02.

MS BETTNEY: Alright - I was looking at the heading at the top of the page.

MR. OLDFORD: No, no.

The question is sort of a general one. The buildings that you look after, would that include schools and hospitals?

MS BETTNEY: In terms of the design work?

MR. OLDFORD: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: We have overall responsibility when it comes to managing the construction of facilities on government's behalf. It is typically decided almost project by project, and in the majority of cases we contract out the design of facilities such as hospitals, which you mentioned.

With respect to schools, I am going to ask Mr. Greenland to comment. There is not a direct responsibility that we have as a department. We tend to provide that service if we can accommodate it and if it is desired by the Department of Education, but again it is almost on a project-by-project basis.

MR. OLDFORD: I guess my concern is that we are into this cost-saving mode, and if we have a like division in the Department of Health and a like division in the Department of Education designing properties, why do we not just put it in one department, whether it be your department or -

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask Mr. Abbott to comment on that.

MR. ABBOTT: Mr. Oldford, in terms of that, right now we are the only department that has full responsibility for the design of government buildings. In terms of health, we do their designs; so they do have a section or division in the department that looks at their capital projects, but the actual design is managed through our services and we would contract on their behalf.

In terms of education, we are discussing that very point with them. They do not have design staff themselves, so the school boards would be hiring their own, and we are talking to the new school construction board about the same thing you are talking about, about bringing that under our jurisdiction, but that is something we would have to discuss further with them.

MR. OLDFORD: When this came up originally, the issue was bricks. I was trying to figure out if I was going to get some work for my little brick yard down in Milton. What happens is you get referred to the health care corporation, to your department, to the Department of Education, and all over the place. It would seem to make sense to me, with the reduction in the number of buildings we are building, that we do not need designers in three or four different departments, and if we are in the cost-saving mode maybe we should look at amalgamating all of these functions under one. We have done it with human resources in a number of departments; why not do it with planning and design?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, and those discussions are taking place, as the deputy minister indicated.

Mr. Greenland would like to comment as well.

MR. GREENLAND: Just a general comment, I guess, to set the record straight. Generally, with large buildings, we contract out the design, first of all. Where you are running into a difficulty to some extent is where the ultimate responsibility for the project lies, and I will just give you an example.

In St. Anthony hospital, of course, we retain the consultant; we supervise the construction project. With the Health Care Corporation in St. John's at this moment we are actually providing a consulting service to the corporation that is managing the project.

So there is a little bit of a mixed role but I think the direction we are on, as the minister said, is that eventually it will come back to kind of a one focal point and I think out of necessity probably as much as anything.

The school one, as the deputy points out, is very much an active debate. The change in the school construction program - and I say this kindly - is it leads logically to the fact that Works, Services and Transportation would assume construction responsibilities for major school construction. We have kind of the internal infrastructure to do that but again, we will not do design, we will just manage through consultants.

MR. OLDFORD: Okay, fine. The only other question I had was on cabin roads but since (inaudible) straightened out I guess mine will be straightened out tomorrow. Thank you.

CHAIR: Anthony?

MR. SPARROW: Yes, I have a question on cabin roads, too. Plans for cabin roads, what happens in a situation where there are livyers on the road, or a business? Will it still be classed as a cabin road then?

MS BETTNEY: There are quite likely some of those 363 kilometres which are anomalies. What I have indicated to people is that if there are aspects of the actual function of the road that call into question whether it should be a class 4 road, then we will look at that as a department and make a determination on it. So if that is an issue in terms of any of the class 4 roads in your area, I would just encourage you to come to the department and we will look at them case by case to determine whether they are in fact cabin roads, what we call class 4 roads or if there is some different function that causes us to consider it otherwise. But simply the fact that people live on it year-round would not necessarily mean that it is not a cabin road, because there are areas of the Province that have cabins, where people have chosen to live in their cabins year-round and they are still considered as cabin roads.

MR. SPARROW: Another question, I am not sure, but earlier did you say that you would be announcing a multi-year plan for road construction?

MS BETTNEY: I am hoping to be able to release our multi-year plan soon. We are in the final stages of putting the finishes touches, I should say, on the multi-year plan for our roads in the Province. The basis of it is the full assessment that we undertook over the past year, of all of the roads in the Province, from the Trans-Canada to our community access local roads.

MR. SPARROW: When you say soon, I do not want to put you to an exact date, but is like within three months or six months?

MS BETTNEY: I would hope within less than three months.

MR. SPARROW: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, back to Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Just on page 67, and we can do some of this maybe a bit quicker. Any time I come to Salaries, Terry, I will give you the page number and if you could, supply the answers to me in writing. On page 67, Salaries and Administration and Technical Support, the salaries again, there are changes there, so when you do your letter on Salaries, would you send me the information concerning both of those?

On page 68, again in Salaries, I would ask the same question there. There are $242,700 there. I will go down to Supplies, which supplies have been eliminated to save $80,000?

MS BETTNEY: In Supplies, the estimate that is included for 1997-1998 reflects a reduction in fuel costs due to some conservation measures that we have taken over the past year or will be initiating in this year. Also, the ADM mentions to me that we have had some building closures which affects our overall cost of fuel and electricity.

The next item, 06, Purchased Services refers primarily to electricity and things like our cleaning contracts and snow-clearing contracts for buildings that we maintain.

MR. FRENCH: So, again, it is probably closure of those buildings?

MS BETTNEY: A combination of closure and some of the conservation methods that we have employed.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I have to question the one on gasoline. Revenue - Provincial, you know, $2,205,000 just -

MS BETTNEY: That is space that we rent, from which we receive income.

MR. FRENCH: Transportation and Communications: Why did the government go over Budget by $90,000 in Transportation and Communications? It went from $68,000 to $158,000 and now, in 1997-1998, we are going back to $68,000.

MS BETTNEY: You will note in the caption for the rentals category that it also includes allocation for moving expenses and minor maintenance. During this past year, we moved the Government Purchasing Agency to the Fisheries Building, consequently incurring an up-front cost to do that. However, of course, we did move it from a rental space so there would have been an offsetting reduction now, in 1997-1998 for our rentals. So the $68,000 allocation for Transportation and Communications reflects a status quo estimate and the fact that we do not anticipate a major expense in this area, at least not at this point.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I am looking at Purchased Services. We budgeted $357,000 -

MS BETTNEY: That is our rental savings there.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services, which buildings and what alterations were done for the $35,000 on page 69.

MS BETTNEY: Page 69? Which number item is it?

MR. FRENCH: We are down to 06, Purchased Services.

MS BETTNEY: Under Alterations?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask my ADM or Deputy to comment.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: We will have to provide you with those details.

MR. FRENCH: On down to Administration, there is a reduction in the Salaries and I guess, Terry, you can include that in your letter to me, if you would?

In the Purchased Services, the Budget amount was $250,000, over the revised amount, we spent less but I just wonder, you know, what were these services that we did not lose?

MS BETTNEY: This caption refers to our car insurance policy; the reduction, I am going to ask the Deputy to comment on the reason for the actual expenditure being less in 1996-1997.

MR. ABBOTT: The main reason for that is that the premiums were less for 1996-1997.

MR. FRENCH: Because you were lucky, John?

MS BETTNEY: We would not dare ask why.

MR. ABBOTT: That was the tender price.

MR. FRENCH: Tendered each year?

MR. ABBOTT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: You are some lucky!

In another life, I used to be in business and I watched my insurance for three vehicles go from somewhere around $300 or $400 a year to in excess of $2,000.

Go down to Maintenance of Equipment, again Terry, there is a Salary thing there, so I will just ask you to send me that one; and on Supplies, what actions have been taken or will be taken to reduce Supplies by $105,500?

MS BETTNEY: This caption refers to fuel costs and it reflects some of the re-organization that we have done in this area with our maintenance of equipment and an anticipated reduction in actual fuel associated with this.

MR. FRENCH: Nothing on page 70. On page 71, there are two Salaries there, one under Administrative Support and one under Project Management And Design; so Terry, you could supply me the answers for both of those. One is $192,300 and the other is $43,800.

Under Supplies, why would Supplies be over-budgeted by approximately $10,000 and Purchased Services over by $9,000?

MS BETTNEY: Do we have the answer to that specific question among us here? No, we will have to supply it at a later time.

MR. FRENCH: Page 72, at the top of the page, Administrative Support, which portions of Salaries again will be added to increase Salaries by $981,800?

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I should speak to this item, and it is connected with a couple of others as we go down through the Road Construction Budget.

The Salary reduction under the revised Budget for 1996-1997 simply reflects the fact that we did $1 million less, worth of work internally last year in engineering support for our capital projects, and you will recall that we did have really, a substantially reduced capital Budget as well last year. You will see as you come down to item No. 48 in the same category that there was less money, again, recharged to capital projects as a result of the reduced spending that we had at that time.

When you come to 3.2.03, Improvement And Construction Of Provincial Roads, you will also see that there is an increase there in our Road Contracts under Purchased Services and that is tied in with doing more of the work externally as well. Is there any other point, Deputy, that we should include with this?

WITNESS: I do not think so.

MS BETTNEY: Those are the three connections that you need to make on this particular item in our road construction in the department.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, Minister, under Improvement And Construction for Provincial Roads, have gone from $6,255,000 to $17,994,600.

MS BETTNEY: You are looking at our Capital Program, to all intents and purposes. Last year we had a $6 million Provincial Roads program and that was the amount that was contracted for that purpose. This year, that amount is considerably increased and we will be putting out to tender that amount under the Provincial Roads piece.

MR. FRENCH: So, when will see copies of the roads that are being -or is that the one that has already been released?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, that has already been released in full. You are starting to see the tenders appear in the paper over the last couple of weeks and that will continue over the next two to three weeks. They should all be released within three weeks.

MR. FRENCH: A fair portion of that is for Roads for Rail?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: In Property, Furnishings and Equipment, this is increased by $48,000. It has gone from $2,000 back up to $50,000. You know, we budgeted $50,000, we only spent $2,000 and now, we are back up to $50,000.

MS BETTNEY: And again, we may only spend $2,000 this year, hopefully. However, we simply make an estimate for this purpose of what will be required when we are managing these particular programs.

MR. FRENCH: Grants and Subsidies, $205,000 was paid in 1996-1997 but we are not paying it in 1997-1998. Can you just tell me what that was for?

MS BETTNEY: That refers to some roads that we were able to transfer. Again, do we have the specifics of that, Terry or John?

I know we have the answer here - it is a question of how accessible it is. No, okay, I was off track. This one is not pertaining to the roads transfer. This refers to some brush-cutting that we did in a few areas of the Province towards the end of last year and we administered it as a grant to some local associations to conduct on our behalf.

MR. FRENCH: Can I have a list of where that money was spent and in which communities?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: There is nothing on page 73. Page 74, under Professional Services there was an allocation for $12,900. We did some professional services; just quickly, what were they?

MS BETTNEY: That was probably some consultant fees that we incurred in relation to some of the Trans-Canada Highway work, either the review of the agreement that we undertook last summer or probably some very specific area associated with that. I do not think that would have been the consulting fee for the whole review that we undertook but I would expect that perhaps there was an isolated project that we asked the consultants to look at on our behalf.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, can you send me which consultant that was and why they were paid that money?

Under Land Acquisitions, there is $2,500,000. We allocated that in 1996-1997 and we have budgeted the same amount in -

MS BETTNEY: That is ongoing land acquisition in relation to the Trans-Canada projects.

WITNESS: All projects, actually.

MS BETTNEY: All projects, okay.

MR. FRENCH: All projects, so that will be any land that you might expropriate?

MS BETTNEY: Yes. I would expect, for the most part in 1997-1998, we are looking at continuing land acquisition in the Goulds and in Pasadena and there will be others associated with some of the access roads as well.

MR. FRENCH: And I trust in Conception Bay South, too, Minister?

MS BETTNEY: Most likely.

MR. FRENCH: That letter I wrote you the other day. Page 75 -

CHAIR: Okay, we have gone past the agreed time - we are up to 8:32 p.m. Do you want to break now for fifteen minutes?

MR. FRENCH: Do you know why we are breaking? I have to get this one the record - it is only because the Chairman wants to get a smoke, you know that, do you not?

CHAIR: Well, I do, but I also want to make sure my Committee members get a smoke also.

WITNESS: I have had mine already so you can carry on.

MR. FRENCH: We cannot do that to you, Ralph.

CHAIR: Well, I have been sitting since 2:00 p.m. today. Do you have any sympathy at all now? Jack you had a point?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I just have to tell you that I have to leave. I have a meeting at 8:30 p.m. in Flatrock to discuss roads, the conditions of the roads in Flatrock. I had planned to leave at 8:00 p.m. but it was so interesting that I had to stay. Pardon?

WITNESS: (Inaudible) while you are gone?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I am sure my colleague here will do a fine job. There will be lots of questions asked.

CHAIR: We enjoyed your presence and we certainly enjoyed your comprehensive input.

MR. J. BYRNE: Before I leave, I would like to thank the minister and her staff for answering the questions.

MS BETTNEY: You are welcome.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am sure she will be getting a lot of requests from many members in the House of Assembly in the next little while, especially now with that extra $5 million that I have my eye set on and I will be one of them. In the meantime, thank you and everybody over there for your time.

CHAIR: We will break now for fifteen minutes and come back, and hopefully Mr. French will get through his questions. We will come back at 8:50 p.m.

CHAIR: Order, please!

Now we can get started again.

Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Again, on page 75, Alterations And Improvements To Existing Facilities, there is a change there in the salary structure. Terry, if you do not have it readily available, you can certainly, on that letter that you are sending to me, include the salary amount.

Which professional services will or have been eliminated to save $485,000? That is under Professional Services, Minister.

MS BETTNEY: I am looking at the revised estimate of $785,000, and I may have to ask Mr. Greenland to comment on that, but it most likely represents renovations and retrofit that we completed in 1996-1997, and we are not estimating the same requirement for this current year.

George, is there anything further?

MR. GREENLAND: Just, I guess, a little clarification. This is a capital account. The breakdown between Salaries, Professional Services and Purchased Services is basically, at the start of each year, a guess as to how this is going to be broken out. There are no people assigned to this in the normal sense. This is one capital account, and the $300,000 is our guess and again generally done on a percentage basis of the total capital amount, which is $3.7 million.

MR. FRENCH: Could you send me something, then, on that $785,000, or the difference, the $485,700, as to where that would have been spent and why?

MR. GREENLAND: I can tell you where the $785,000 was spent, which would have been part of very specific projects.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: Those projects will not be the same projects this year.

MR. FRENCH: No, no, but I would like to know where the $785,700 went.

MR. GREENLAND: I can tell you some of them now or I can send it to you, whichever you wish.

MR. FRENCH: No, I would just as soon you put it in writing.

MR. GREENLAND: Fine.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, under Purchased Services we are over budget by $385,700.

MS BETTNEY: Which item are you referring to? I am sorry, I did not catch the caption.

MR. FRENCH: I am down to Purchased Services now, Minister.

MS BETTNEY: Purchased Services, under Alterations And Improvements?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, so that is tied to the same capital budget that George just referred to; the three are interconnected.

MR. FRENCH: Then, if you would not mind, you can include that in your letter to me as well.

MR. GREENLAND: We will have to give you a listing of projects because the point I was making is that Salaries, Professional Services and Purchased Services, I can tell you where each was spent. The budget from one year to the next, there is no relationship to it.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: It is basically kind of a global allocation and then for bookkeeping purposes, if you wish, we allocate part to Professional Services, part to Salaries, and the balance is in Purchased Services, which is the actual renovation work we may do in various buildings, and it could be anything from a hospital, in which we may be doing work, to this building, to a college, or so on.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: So it will be a list of projects on which we spend our money.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you.

Would you note in there as well for me what was public tender and what was not?

MR. GREENLAND: Everything over $7,500 would have been public tendered, and under $7,500 we would have three prices. Most of this, as a guess, will be well over $7,500. That is in terms of Purchased Services. Professional Services is outside the Act, as you are probably aware.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Page 76, Minister, Air Subsidies: Grants and Subsidies, has been increased by $200,000 and I would just like to ask why.

MS BETTNEY: This is the Air Subsidies? Is that what you are referring to, number (10) there?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: That is the foodlift subsidy for the Coast of Labrador. We reinstated it towards the end of the last fiscal year, and consequently, we had a reduced amount to cover the requirements for that period. We estimate that the cost of operating foodlift subsidy for the full year to be $390,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and just further down the page under Airstrips, it says: Professional Services, $15,000 was spent.

MS BETTNEY: The Assistant Deputy is telling me that we had some consultant work again on one of the airstrips. I believe that probably pertains to Nain, but I will have Terry confirm that for you.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and the name of who did that work, too, Terry, please.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: On page 77, Supplies have decreased by $119,900; this is under Ferry Operations, and I am just wondering what they would have been.

MR. McCARTHY: There was a general reduction in Supplies in the ferry operations area in trying to manage our supply boat a little more in terms of everything, from paper towels to washroom supplies, things in the waiting room and so on.

MR. FRENCH: So, general supplies.

In Purchased Services, there has been a change. This has been estimated to save $281,600?

MS BETTNEY: Yes. The key area that that reflects is a decrease in our insurance costs on ferries.

MR. FRENCH: There, as well, the revenue is $2,188,000 and I just wondered what was its source? Would that be from fees charged on the ferries?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Page 78. Under Ferry Vessels, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there has been a reduction of $800,000.

MS BETTNEY: We had allocated in the 1996-1997 Budget a notional amount for the acquisition of a replacement ferry for the Katharine. We were not successful in obtaining a replacement vessel during 1996-1997 and we have reinstated it as a capital figure in the Budget for this year. It is a notional amount based on roughly the same capital expenditure, in the order of about $6 million.

MR. FRENCH: Go down to Administration And Hangar Facilities; Salaries, there is a $93,300 difference. If you do not have the answer readily, Terry, you can include that in the Salary ones for me.

Page 79, Salaries have been reduced by $158,800. Again you could probably in your letter give me that figure. Under Transportation and Communications, .03, there has been a reduction of roughly $26,000.

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask Terry to speak to that. As you will note, it is the same original budget estimate, but it is a reduction from our actual experience last year.

MR. McCARTHY: Yes, it is a reflection of our actual experience, and we have parked two Cansos this year, so our travel should be down from last year. Again, it depends on the type of fire season we will have.

MR. FRENCH: Under Revenue - Provincial there is $430,000. There is a decrease of $207,700.

MR. McCARTHY: Again, that is an estimate of revenue. Sometimes we do go out of the Province with those aircraft. It depends on the fire seasons in other provinces and how much flying we will do outside the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Page 80, 5.1.01. Again with the Salaries it looks like a change there, a decrease of somewhere close to $200,000. I just wonder what positions have been eliminated and so on. If you wish, you can include that in your Salaries. The same thing for 5.1.02, the Supply Centre, Salaries. There is $111,700 there.

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I can comment on that one. That reflects the fact that we have closed the supply depot we operated on behalf of government departments. We have simply maintained a notional amount to accommodate what we will carry over there, but for the most part we will not be staffing that function within our department in this year.

MR. FRENCH: Then if you would just carry down a bit further, Supplies, 5.1.02.04. Last year it was $779,300 and this year there is nothing budgeted at all. I assume that is because the Centre is closed.

MS BETTNEY: We have closed out the Centre. We will not be purchasing.

MR. FRENCH: On page 81, Printing and Micrographic Services. 5.1.03.02. I am just curious. There is an Employee Benefits there of $1,000. I just wonder what would that be?

MS BETTNEY: My staff inform me that is a membership fee for one of our employees who is employed with Printing and Micrographic Services.

MR. FRENCH: Again, in Mail Services, 5.1.04, the difference. How many positions have been eliminated to effect the reduction in the Salaries? I guess in Printing and Micrographic Services there is a difference there, as well, so I would ask questions on both of those, on the Salaries. That is 5.1.03.01 under Printing and Micrographic Services, and in Mail Services, 5.1.04.01.

I am just about to the end, Mr. Chairman. Page 82, Realty Services: There is a reduction there of $100,000 in Salaries.

MS BETTNEY: We have merged two divisions, and that reflects the decrease in positions as a result of that. We have merged Realty with Leasing.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Under the Queen's Printer, in Salaries, which positions were lost or reduced? There is a difference of $22,000.

MS BETTNEY: The salary difference that you noted under the Queen's Printer refers to a position that we moved from this particular allocation to Government Services and Lands.

MR. FRENCH: Under Purchased Services, Minister, the government was over budget by $157,000.

MS BETTNEY: There was revised legislation during last year that increased the requirement for our printing with the Gazette. It happened mid-year and we did not have time to make an adjustment to the offsetting revenue so we simply had to absorb the extra cost of printing the Gazette last year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay and there is revenue there of $325,000. Could we get an itemized list of account of what sources this revenue would have come from? Can you provide me with a written list of where this funding would have come from?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask one of the staff to just comment on what that revenue represents because I am not sure if it is practical to provide an itemized accounting.

MR. ENGLISH: That represents the subscription for the Newfoundland Gazette plus for any advertising that is placed in the Gazette or any over-the-counter sales that are made at the Queen's Printer office.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, you do not need to give me that in writing now.

The last question - on page 83, Park Operations: "Appropriations provide for the operation of the C.A. Pippy Park." What effect will the $100,600 decrease have on the ability of the park to carry out its operation? Is the user fee a possibility because of the declined subsidy from government?

MS BETTNEY: I believe that the decline in the subsidy will be absorbed through increases in the fees associated with golf in Pippy Park, not within the park as a whole. The park assures me that they should be able to accommodate this with an adjustment to the golf piece.

MR. FRENCH: I do not play golf.

MS BETTNEY: Me, neither.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, just to conclude then, Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff for coming here and giving me the answers to most of the questions, and I am sure your staff will provide me with the answers that they said they would. It is always nice to deal with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I find with you, Madam Minister, that you are very straightforward and when I ask you a question I usually get an answer. I wish I could say that concerning everybody on your side of the House but I cannot. I always find with you, that your answers are very straightforward. You are usually pretty up-front and I do not say that in a condescending way. I say most sincerely and most seriously, I have found since you have taken on that department that when I ask you a question I usually get an answer. I certainly appreciate that from you.

Thank you again and your staff, for coming tonight and I look forward to receiving the rest of the answers when your staff has the opportunity to supply them to me.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. French.

Are there any more questions?

AN HON. MEMBER: No further questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

CHAIR: I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads, then, inclusive.

CLERK (E. Murphy): 1.1.01 to 5.3.02.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through to 5.3.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, total heads, without amendment, carried.

CHAIR: I, too, would like to thank you and your staff, Minister, for your attendance here tonight. I must say, as Chair, I am impressed with your in-depth knowledge of your department and how your monies are spent, and where they are spent. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you. Good night, and have a safe journey home.

MS BETTNEY: In turn, I thank my staff for doing the real work in preparing me for this.

Committee adjourned.