The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I would like to introduce the members of the Committee. They are: Mr. George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace, Mr. Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains, and Mr. Ray Hunter, MHA for Windsor-Springdale. There are other members who are unavoidably delayed. They should be along shortly. I will introduce them at the appropriate time.

The rules have been that the minister has fifteen minutes to open the Estimates, and the Vice-Chairman would have fifteen minutes to respond. We interchange between members for ten minute intervals. We hope that it is going to be expeditious. I would ask the minister, when we are ready to do so, that he would introduce his staff. I also would say that when the staff is responding to a question they would identify themselves for recording purposes. It makes it much easier for the recorder. I should also say that Ms Murphy is the Clerk here tonight to assist the Committee. We have Kevin Collins as our recorder - our faithful recorder, I should say.

We are about to begin. I would now ask the Clerk to call the subhead.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, when you are ready you may begin, introduce your staff, and you can take the fifteen minutes to introduce your Estimates, if you so desire.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

For the record, I am Ernie McLean, the Minister of Government Services and Lands, and I will be dealing with the Department of Government Services and Lands.

What I would like to do is introduce the staff I have here and also just take a few minutes to an overview of the department because it is a wide-ranging department. It has many aspects to it.

I will begin by introducing, to my left, the Deputy Minister of the Department of Government Services and Lands, Barbara Knight. Next to her is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Government Services, Donna Kelland. Behind me is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Commercial and Corporate Affairs, Wins Morris. Next to Wins is Ken Curtis, the budgeting officer responsible for our department. Bill Parrot - sorry about that, Bill; he is the only fellow around here as tall as I am - is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands.

CHAIR: Good man.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that.

I will give a brief overview of the department just for the purpose to maybe clarify some of the things you may want to ask questions on.

Government Services and Lands consists of three branches: Lands, Commercial and Corporate Affairs, and Government Services. This department is responsible for a wide range of services involving extensive interaction with the public. The department has offices located in thirteen communities throughout the Province. We have a staff compliment of over 450 permanent employees.

The department's mission is to protect and serve consumers, to regulate business and financial services, and to manage provincial registries. We also provide information on and ensure compliance with legislation and policies in the areas of environmental health, public safety and highway safety. We also manage our Crown land resources.

In line with this mission, Government Services and Lands works in partnership with many other government departments, very much interlinked with a lot of departments in the government.

The level of the department's funding, for this year, to carry out the services is $24.2 million. Essentially, it is the same level of funding as we had last year. The only significant difference is the deletion of funding for firearms programs that we always carry, which this year, with the introduction of the new firearms act, is administered by the federal government. This stability of funding will enable the department to move forward and build on our past achievements.

Our goal over the next year is to improve service quality and accessibility, strengthen service effectiveness and efficiency, to place a greater emphasis on consumer and public protection, and to intensify our efforts to effectively manage our Crown land resources. I will get into that a little later on about the review that we have done.

To achieve these goals the department will be pursuing a number of initiatives this year. I will only mention a few involving information technology and consumer protection. On the information technology side, it is important that our department, especially, get into the technology side of it. Service accessibility and effectiveness can be improved by enhancing the use of technology.

This year the department will begin implementation of a new electronic application management and licensing system. This system will improve tracking and processing of the department's large number of applications and permits, because we are the department that is fully responsible for most of the applications and permits that apply to government programs. This will also improve the monitoring of the many inspection and enforcement functions that we carry out as well.

Of course, once the program is fully implemented this system will allow us to reduce paperwork and better coordinate projects for clients as well as respond to consumer inquiries and provide inspection services much more efficiently and effectively.

We are also involved in the geographic information systems. For several years the department has been developing the GIS system. This year the system will be made available to our regional offices for the first time. That will greatly improve the service that we are able to offer in the regions. The GIS is a computer based system which will contain all of the department's base maps, the thematic maps for land ownership, land use, survey monuments and air photo indexes. So there will be a great improvement. The GIS will result in the creation of on-line data bases that can be readily updated and accessed throughout the Province. That is something we have not had before so it is going to greatly improve it.

I am building all this up so you will ask reasonable questions.

The department is facing increasing demands for these types of services and increased activity in this area. It will enable us to improve services to our clients. That is the bottom line of this department, to try to provide the best service we can. This year $100,000 has been allocated to advance the GIS initiatives in the department.

There are just a couple of more examples I will give you, Mr. Chairman, and then we will get on to the questioning.

In consumer protection, this year the department will continue to respond to the recommendations contained in the report of the select committee of the House of Assembly on property and casualty insurance. For the MHAs that were not here the last time, we had a select committee do a report on property and casualty insurance, and we have started to act on the recommendations.

Government is pleased to work with the work that went on in this report. It was chaired by Rick Woodford. It covers a wide-ranging list of recommendations. The department has already acted on a number of those. We changed the insurance rating territories in the Province ad we implemented the graduated driver license program. The department is actively engaged in reviewing the committee's report. We intend to take additional significant actions in the near future.

The regulation of occupations is another area that the department covers also. As I said in a statement in the House of Assembly just recently, we have taken significant action with respect to Challenging Responses to Changing Times, which is the White Paper on occupational regulation. A comprehensive review of the immense response to the report has been completed, and drafting of appropriate legislation is now under way. This will take a couple of years to do because of the immensity of the change that we had to make in the regulatory process. This legislation will standardize procedures and improve consumer protection. As I stated in my statement to the House, the omnibus bill will amend twenty-seven pieces of legislation and we will be introducing that in due course.

On personal property security, you will recall that in the fall of 1998 a bill entitled, An Act Respecting Security Interests in Personal Property, was passed. This Act was put in place to modernize the current system for the registration of interest in personal property in the Province. Our intent is to create a common regulatory environment which will make it easier to do business in the Province. The new legislation will result in a new electronic registry; the personal property security registry it will be called. This will permit on-line registration from any area in the Province. We have never had that before. This is all new and it will greatly improve the opportunities. The main users of this service will be the banks, trust companies, credit unions, car dealers and lawyers who have to come in now and sift through wads of paper.

I think discussions are currently being held with xwave solutions and Unysis to develop this new system. This is a public-private partnership that we have created to result in this new process.

Those are some of the issues that our department deals with. There are many, many more. It is a very diverse department. I think that is sufficient, Mr. Chairman, and I will entertain questions now on the Estimates.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

For the record, I want to introduce Mrs. Sheila Osborne, the Member for St. John's West, who was unavoidably delayed but is now here.

One of you are going to respond, I guess, for the first fifteen minutes. Have you decided? It is not critical. You do not have to take the fifteen minutes if you do not want to. When you are ready, you can either respond or go directly to questions.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, for the record, I do not think you introduced the other member behind you.

CHAIR: Oh, I am sorry, I did not. Well I should not, maybe. He should be on time, actually.

Mr. Eddie Joyce is the MHA for Bay of Islands. I apologize, Mr. Joyce. You are sitting there behind me and it is difficult to see.

Mr. Hunter, when you are ready.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, and your workers, Government Services and Lands, to me, are identified by your Government Services and Lands offices spread out through the Island. I am not sure how many you have, but I am familiar with the one in Grand Falls-Windsor. I think that was a really good move on behalf of your department, to have these service offices located in strategic areas of the Province where the population is more than in some other areas.

There are a lot of things on my mind about your department. Basically in some areas, particularly on the east side of St. John's, it is not easy to access government services, particularly with licensing - car licensing and driver licensing. For senior citizens - I am not sure but I believe - they have to go to Mount Pearl for the renewal of licenses.

I think something should be done probably in these bigger areas so that it can be more easily accessed by seniors and other people who find it hard to travel outside of the St. John's area to Mount Pearl. I think probably there is more need for other offices in certain areas. I am not sure of any other areas, but this one comes to my mind particularly.

In our area, the Grand Falls-Windsor area, I think there should be more emphasis put on the availability of access to Crown land issues. I think the staff in there - you are probably understaffed because the complaints I received were that when people go in looking for issues, particularly Crown lands, they have to basically go to Gander to get the information they want. The service in there is good; I am not complaining about the service. I think that probably they are just understaffed more than anything.

The availability of mapping and information on land leases, land grants and stuff like that, is just not there for Grand Falls-Windsor. It is more particularly done out of Gander, I suppose, and that is probably more of a regional office than the Grand Falls-Windsor one.

I am not sure about the other areas of the Province. I am sure you have offices set up in strategic places to deal with that. I will be asking you particular questions on these offices and the type of services that you might be planning on developing, increasing, or enhancing in these offices.

Mr. Minister, I am only just now aware of all the things that your department does. I must say, from reading through some of this here, I am very impressed that you do have a very tight and solid ship that you are running and I am very impressed with the way your department is being run.

I am not sure if Sheila wants to make a comment on anything.

MR. McLEAN: Do you want me just to respond to a couple of those issues?

MR. HUNTER: I will ask you questions, if you don't mind, if I could. (Inaudible) respond.

MR. McLEAN: Do you want me to respond to a couple of those?

MR. HUNTER: Oh you can, sure.

MR. McLEAN: I can respond to a couple of those.

In reference to the issue of the Mount Pearl situation, as far as motor vehicle, my understanding is that Mount Pearl has always been the location in St. John's for many years for the Motor Vehicle Licensing Division.

I guess the other thing I would like to say is that what we have been trying to do since I came into the department - when I became the Minister of Government Services in 1996, there were government service centres set up in St. John's, Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Goose Bay. We have expanded that, since I came here, to one in Labrador City, one in Clarenville, and one in Harbour Grace, with a view to continuing to expand to the rural areas of the Province; because what we do see in a lot of areas like Port aux Basques, St. Anthony, Marystown and those areas, is that they have to travel an extra long way to have government services provided. What we are trying to do is bring the services closer to these people as we move through and enhance the abilities that we have and what we have learned from setting the government services centres in place, putting them in place as we go through.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have Springdale on your list for a service centre?

MR. McLEAN: Well we will look at Springdale and the Baie Verte Peninsula as an area like Port aux Basques and St. Anthony. As we gain revenues we can move into these areas with some services.

MR. HUNTER: Springdale certainly hope for services in the Green Bay area and -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, on the Crown land side. Crown lands has been a major issue that we have been trying to wrestle with in a lot of ways. We are completing a review of the division itself, a whole complete review of it. Also, once that review is done, we may be able to align our resources in a different way that will provide a better service out there; but I think the major issue that is going to improve the service in the Crown lands area is the GIS system.

Once we get that up and running, that is going to provide to each of the regional offices the same services you have here in St. John's. That will enable the officers in those areas to determine the lot ownership, all the base mapping and overlapping maps that you can overlay on each one to determine if the place you are applying for is a piece of Crown land or if it is already taken.

That is going to be much of an improvement in the type of service that we were able to offer in the Crown Lands Division, and these are the kinds of things that we are trying to improve.

Those are just general comments to the issues that you raised there.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you have any plans of privatizing the GIS services through mapping, registrations, deeds and things? Are there any plans in the future for privatizing -

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no plan.

MR. HUNTER: - access?

MR. McLEAN: No, there will be greater access to it but it is not going to be privatized. It will still be a government service.

MR. HUNTER: Will there be any updating of policies concerning leases and grants, and the cost of converting from a lease to a grant? Have there been any more increases in -

MR. McLEAN: Well we basically went through a policy change in 1996. In May of 1996 we brought in the market value pricing policy which put a whole new policy in place for dealing with lands. It saw the opportunity for people to convert leases into grants. I guess what we have done is put cabin owners in positions where they can have grants on their land instead of fifty-year leases.

What we tried to do with the implementation of the market value pricing policy was to bring a fair opportunity to people for people to own their land rather than to lease it, which helps both ways. It helps the government in terms of we don't have to provide the administration costs to all these lands that are out there, and it gives the property owners a greater opportunity to move their land around, if they want to sell it or pass it on and that sort of thing. We don't have to be involved in it.

Also, with the commercial land, we have basically valued the land at market value which we feel is appropriate. If the government is going to be distributing all the commercial land then we should get a fair value for it.

We have tried to move the cottage lot area into, specifically, grants.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have any plans of freeing up Crown land for multi-use purposes such as blueberry farms and other things that only can take place in certain areas? Do you have any plans to make the referrals less so that people, like blueberry farmers, can get better access to certain particular pieces of land that is suitable for what they want to do?

MR. McLEAN: The department is always looking at, and reviewing, the way we distribute agricultural land and land for forestry purposes, all of those kinds of things. That is always under a review.

We will look at areas of the Province where there are possibilities of blueberry farming or cranberry farming. All of those issues have to be dealt with through our department and the Department of Forestry Resources and Agrifoods because we cannot just, on our own, set out areas in the Province for any type of land development, other than cottage lots and those sorts of things, without interfacing with other departments. We have to ensure that the Departments of Environment and Labour, Tourism, Culture and Recreation and Forest Resources and Agrifoods are on side. All of those departments have to be involved in the process of land distribution.

MR. HUNTER: Does your office have any plans of privatizing inspections, particularly with environmental things, like sewage systems, electrical, access inspection stuff? Do you have any plans of downgrading that service any more than it has been downgraded, or do you have plans on enhancing the service by hiring more inspectors or privatizing? What are your future plans?

MR. McLEAN: As far as the waste disposal for cottage lots, we have basically privatized that, if you want to call it that. What we have done is indicated under our policy now that it is the applicant's responsibility to go out and get a septic tank designed for cottage lot areas.

In terms of the electrical inspections and that, in 1994 the change was made to go to categories for electrical contractors requiring inspections from the department. I do not foresee any changes in that area because it is working relatively well. Unless we see some great problems created or cropping up, we see no problem in continuing on with what we have.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, I am not sure if I am correct or not, but is your department responsible for road signs?

MR. McLEAN: Our department is responsible for inspecting road signs. Just let me give you a little example. On the highway, outside of town boundaries, the Departments of Works, Services and Transportation and Tourism, Culture and Recreation are responsible, or the policy makers of those signage policies. Our department is mandated to inspect those signs to ensure that they are appropriately placed and they are the right type of signs. So there are three departments involved.

In municipal boundaries, where there is signage, the municipality also has input, and also the municipal planning office has input. There is a whole host of departments involved. We are, basically, the inspection arm for these policies. We do not actually administer the policy, we just do the inspections. Well, we administer it I guess, but we don't develop the policies.

MR. HUNTER: Do you issue permits for signage?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we do.

MR. HUNTER: You are also responsible for road safety? You just said -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, sir.

MR. HUNTER: I do not know if you have been getting complaints over the past winter or not, but I know through personal experience of driving back and forth from Central Newfoundland to here the type of material used on the highway for sanding. I notice that this year in particular there was a lot of bigger stones being flicked back at the car. It is unbelievable, some of the stones I saw coming back at me. Certainly it wasn't sand. Certainly that could create a hazard for highway driving. (Inaudible) -

MR. McLEAN: The highway safety that we are responsible for is more in the line of inspecting vehicles. We are responsible for bus inspections, heavy equipment inspections and truck inspections. Basically, the sanding of roads and the clearing of highways is the responsibility of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. Our department is more in the line of inspections for the heavy equipment.

MR. HUNTER: Wouldn't it be the responsibility of your department to inspect the material being used for sanding? If you are inspect -

MR. McLEAN: I am not sure, I will have to ask the deputy. It is not my -

MR. HUNTER: If you are inspecting the car, you should inspect what is coming at the car too.

MR. McLEAN: My understanding is that that is the responsibility of Works, Services and Transportation because they spread the stuff.

MR. HUNTER: But do you complain to them to -

MR. McLEAN: I have not because -

MR. HUNTER: No complaints to your department?

MR. McLEAN: If there would be complaints to our department we would certainly forward them on to Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. HUNTER: You said you are putting $100,000 into the GIS system this year. Is that for the purchase of computer equipment and stuff or is that -

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: That is the purchase of it? (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: The initial purchases, because we have to get the hardware for the system and also the software as well so that we can get the program up and running.

MR. HUNTER: Will a lot of this technology be contracted out to other people or will it be done totally by your department employees?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, because it is dealing with our lands and the lands distribution. It is in-house.

MR. HUNTER: I have one question on consumer protection. You have mentioned the insurances of property and casualties. That is mandatory now, for any public place to carry public insurance for casualties and property damages or any claims made to personal injuries. That is a mandatory law, to carry that for a public place?

MR. McLEAN: Oh, public liability?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. As far as I know any public building would require - they would be crazy if they did not have public liability, because if they get sued where are they going to go?

MR. HUNTER: Some small business owners do not carry the protection. I don't know if there is any way you could monitor that. I know from being in business, and I have talked to a lot of business owners, that they had to drop their insurance coverage because of costs. It could be a concern -

MR. McLEAN: That is the premium cost, is it?

MR. HUNTER: The premium cost, yes.

MR. McLEAN: I am going to ask the ADM of Commercial and Corporate Affairs to respond to that. He is also our expert on the insurance industry. I am going to ask him to make a few comments in response to your questions.

MR. MORRIS: The only insurance in the Province which is mandatory is actually public liability for automobile insurance. There is no other insurance that is mandatory.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, on vehicle insurance and public liability insurance, is it possible your department could find some type of relief for students who attend post-secondary education to have a reduction in insurance costs? I know several young people who have to come in here to go to university or other post-secondary institutions and find it very difficult, because of their age, to get insurance and have a car to get back and forth to wherever they are getting their education, whether it be in trades colleges, private colleges or university. Is it possible that you could look into some type of program to give them a tax relief or some type of grant or something to help students get insurance at a lower cost? Is there any way of doing that?

MR. McLEAN: I don't know, because insurance is charged by the insurance companies to the students. It is not a government fee.

One of the things that we have tried to do to reduce the insurance costs to the drivers is bring in the graduated drivers license program. We certainly see from other provinces and other jurisdictions that it has, over a period of time, reduced the number of accidents that occur. Also, it improves the safety of drivers on the highway which - the insurance companies surely will understand - will allow them to reduce the premium cost to drivers.

In terms of government issuing a subsidy or something for young drivers to pay their insurance, they pay the insurance based on what the insurance companies charge. Generally, I think in this Province insurance to young people is very high because of the third party claims that we have seen over the years. I guess a lot of people say it is because of inexperienced drivers. Young people have more accidents than older drivers, therefore they are charged more.

I don't know if it would be appropriate for government to look at a subsidy for paid insurance. I do not really know if that would be appropriate or not. Again, I will ask Winston to respond to you in a little more detail. I am just trying to give you the general sense of it.

MR. MORRIS: On premiums for auto insurance, the insurance industry in the Province is run by private companies, so they charge rates based on their claims experience. All of the rates have to be filed with the Public Utilities Board and approved by the Board. Generally speaking, rates are higher for younger drivers, as the minister just stated.

There is no program of subsidization of premiums for any class of drivers. Their rates are really based on the claims experience for that particular class. I think this is probably consistent right across the country as well.

MR. HUNTER: I thought it might be an incentive, too, for younger students who want to get into post-secondary education. Sometimes students just cannot afford insurance and some of them are out there probably driving without it. It might make sense if we could lobby some other department of government to see if there is something that can be done to help them.

MR. McLEAN: I will give you an example. My daughter is twenty-three and she ran into the back of somebody, causing about $400 damage. Now her insurance is $1,900.

MR. HUNTER: Girls seem to have cheaper insurances than fellows. For my young fellow, I believe it was $2,400 that I had to pay the first year for him.

The twenty-seven pieces of legislation you have coming up, that is all throughout your department?

MR. McLEAN: No. Our department is responsible for eighty-eight different pieces of legislation.

MR. HUNTER: Yes. I thought you said you were going introduce twenty-seven more new pieces of legislation.

MR. McLEAN: No, not this year, is it?

WITNESS: No, that is the omnibus bill.

MR. McLEAN: No. That is the regulation of occupations. Presently within the regulatory process - and I may need to call on somebody to clarify this too - there is a number of pieces of legislation that govern the regulation of professional occupations. What we want to do is to refine all that into one piece of legislation that will cover the regulation of all the professional occupations, the ones we currently regulate plus there are other groups out there that have come to us requesting they also be regulated.

What we plan to do is to combine all those pieces of legislation, because it is very cumbersome when you have all those pieces of legislation out there, and there are a lot of similar things. That was why we did the White Paper on regulation. It was to enable us to get a much better handle on the regulation of professional organizations. That is the cleanest way to do it, to put one omnibus bill through that will accumulate and accommodate all of those pieces of legislation. There are twenty-seven out there now.

MR. HUNTER: Does the CORE program come under your department?

MR. McLEAN: What is that?

MR. HUNTER: CORE. It is for all businesses that had to be registered for doing work for government. That is not your department, is it? It is a certificate of registration, I believe it is call, for occupational health and safety and sexual harassment and stuff like that on the job. Does that still come under your -

MR. McLEAN: It must be Justice, I guess.

MR. HUNTER: It could Justice, okay.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I would suspect.

MR. HUNTER: Alright. Those are all the questions I have pertaining to the department. I do not know (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.

Mr. Sweeney, do you have any questions?

MR. SWEENEY: No questions. I do have just a couple of brief comments. (Inaudible) or I can save them to the end, if you do not mind.

CHAIR: Okay, you can go to the end.

Ms Osborne.

MS S. OSBORNE: On line 12 throughout, the Information Technology -

MR. McLEAN: Could you give us the page?

MS S. OSBORNE: No, just throughout your department, most of the line 12s. I can refer to page 44. There is an expenditure of $113,100. On page 47, there is an expenditure of $1,308,900. That is the revised for 1998-1999. There is another projected estimate of $1,296,500 there in Information Technology. On page 46 there was $110,500 and an estimate of $181,900, there under Commercial and Corporate Affairs. This is all for Information Technology. On page 48, 3.2.01, Permitting and Inspection Services, Information Technology, there is quite a difference in that one in the $714,200 whereas it was projected to $490,100.

Maybe we could speak to that one first. Why is there a discrepancy between $490,100 and $714,200? That is on page 48, 3.2.01.12.

MR. McLEAN: 3.2.01.12. The difference between what was revised last year to the Estimates this year?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Basically, if you look at the Estimates, which is the middle column, $714,200, which is what we used last year, that was for computer upgrades for the Government Services Centres in the application management system that I mentioned earlier.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: We are getting all of those into the computer programs and we had to buy all of the hardware and get everything into action first before we could really get the programs up and running.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. That big expenditure in 3.1.03.12 on page 47 under License and Registration Processing is where you spent $1,308,900. Am I to understand you are planning to spend another $1,296,500?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. That is in the Motor Registration. We are putting in place a new photo licensing system which will enhance the program and it will improve the quality of the material that we produce.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. I noticed in the Auditor General's report - this does not refer to your department, but the Departments of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, Justice and Human Resources and Employment - the Auditor General was concerned about the systems in place to manage and control the computer hardware and software, the inventory. Do you have controls in place to manage the inventory? Do you have sufficient controls? Because you are spending a fair amount of money, and that is understandable, updating your systems, but you do have the controls in place to manage the inventory, do you?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, they certainly would be there.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: One of the things with our department is that a lot of this is new programming because we had done it all over-the-counter with paper and that prior to this. We are trying to get into all new programming through the computers. It will save us an awful lot of storage space and things like that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. I'm just concerned with what the Auditor General found in these other departments, that there was a lot of inventory but there was no mechanism in place to control the inventory. In some cases there were computers on paper but they did not exist and vice versa. As well, do you have a mechanism in place to review the software that is going on the computer to ensure that it is applied only to the equipment for which it was purchased?

MR. McLEAN: I will have to ask somebody else to respond to that.

MS S. OSBORNE: In other words, only authorized software per computer.

MS KNIGHT: Yes, I think we do have sufficient auditing mechanisms to ensure that. We keep lists of all the computer equipment that is distributed throughout our department. Our employees are authorized to use certain programs and not others. I'm not aware of any problems in that aspect.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, because with such an amount of inventory that could very easily happen, and then the Auditor General would be around probably to your department.

That is enough on the computers. Your department is responsible for public health and safety. Would you be responsible for the safety of the school buses?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Are there any plans in place to install seat belts on school buses? I guess you have been asked that a lot.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I guess there has been also a fair amount of study done into that issue as well. As far as I know to date, there are no plans to install seat belts for the passengers in buses; but, in terms of the safety to the buses, we do regular inspections of buses.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR. McLEAN: Maybe somebody else can respond to that - Barb - if there is anything further to what I said.

MS KNIGHT: My understanding is that the national Canadian regulations for school buses do not require seat belts. That is for school buses in all areas, and that is what we are going by.

MS S. OSBORNE: Because they do not require them - and this is not argumentative - you often see a school bus with a load of children going out over the road. You know you have your own seat belt on and you wonder, if they slipped or whatever; there would be this mass of thirty-five or forty children just - they would be projected missiles, really. I know that it would be quite costly but sometimes things do not have a cost, or things are priceless. Okay, that is all I want to ask about that.

I would like to talk about one of the bills that was introduced in December of 1993, and that is the Smoke-Free Environment Act. It was introduced by the Department of Health but I understand it is now under the Department of Government Services and Lands.

MS KNIGHT: We do the inspections. The policy is with the Department of Health. Our government services inspectors do the inspection of facilities to ensure that the regulations are being complied with.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

How many smoke cops - I guess that is the name - how many inspectors do you have?

MS KNIGHT: Well, we do not have inspectors who just do the one thing. We have environmental health inspectors. They would do a number of different inspections. We have inspectors located throughout the Province. Offhand, I do not know the exact -

WITNESS: Twenty-four.

MS KNIGHT: Twenty-four, I am told, all totalled, across the Province.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. How many calls do you get regarding smoking, or people violating the Smoke-Free Environment Act?

MS KNIGHT: I don't have that information.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MS KNIGHT: We can try to get it for you.

MS S. OSBORNE: I would really appreciate it.

MS KNIGHT: I am not aware, actually, of - it is not so many that it has ever been brought to my attention. I have no idea, to be quite honest.

MS S. OSBORNE: I am a bit concerned about the enforcement of that act, and I guess that comes from a personal thing. Sometimes when people are physically handicapped, a building is made accessible by a ramp; it is wheelchair accessible. When people have a handicap that is not visible - a breathing problem, or something wrong with their lungs - many places in the Province are not accessible to these people.

A lot of people I know, and people who are related to me, have found that their lives are really curtailed by buildings being inaccessible because the owners, the operators, the managers or whatever, do not abide by the Smoke-Free Environment Act, and that is a fact. I know that some of them have made calls to the department. I am not sure if inspectors have gone out.

MR. McLEAN: I would suspect that any time there is an inquiry to any of our service centres where there is an inspection required, my understanding from our staff is that they always go and do the inspection. Now what they may come up with may not be what somebody expected them to come up with, which I would assume is a fair amount of the time.

I look at one thing; you look at bingo halls and there is a space set aside. You have to walk through the smoke to get in there -

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, but I am not talking about bingo.

MR. McLEAN: - and those types of things.

There is a variance of ways that you can deal with the smoke laws. Sometimes they are fairly difficult, and probably the inspectors make judgement calls.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

Could I suggest at this time probably a bit more advertising? I do not suggest that you go into millions in advertising, but that a bit more awareness be made; or is it the Department of Health that should do that?

MR. McLEAN: In terms of promoting the smoke-free environment, I would probably think that we would do it in conjunction with the Department of -

MS S. OSBORNE: The Department of Health.

MR. McLEAN: - Environment more than anything. I suppose Health would also be involved in that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

I think if there were a couple of fines imposed, and that was made public, people would probably start to respond to that. What I am finding out there, in places of which I speak, is that people are saying: Well, yes, there is a rule but nobody comes around, kind of thing.

People are not as aware of it as they would be of, say, underage drinking in a club downtown. People are more aware that they have to abide by that than they are aware that they have to abide by the Smoke-Free Environment Act.

Thank you. That is all I have.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister -

CHAIR: Go ahead, (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Minister, under 1.2.01. on page 43, could you tell me why there was a significant increase in Salaries? That was in Executive Support. Was there an increase in office support, staff support?

MR. McLEAN: Well, there was actually funding set aside for an ADM position. Also, I think there was a planning position -

WITNESS: Yes, (inaudible) position.

MR. McLEAN: - or a strategic planning position, because we were trying to do a plan for the department to give us a better idea of how to do our jobs.

MR. HUNTER: What was the responsibility of the ADM?

MR. McLEAN: That was the position for - I believe he was on a special -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible).

Yes, we changed assistant deputy ministers in December, was it?

WITNESS: January.

MR. McLEAN: In December or early January. The ADM that we took out, we put into a special project which will conclude, I think, in June or July. That is a one-time thing. That funding will then go back down to $542,000.

MR. HUNTER: Where does the ADM go after he is finished?

MR. McLEAN: He will be out the door.

MR. HUNTER: Was there any provision made for extra secretarial staff?

MR. McLEAN: No, not in that situation. The secretarial staff was already there.

MR. HUNTER: In Executive Support, was there any...?

MR. McLEAN: No, none.

MR. HUNTER: So this was because of one -

MR. McLEAN: Two positions.

MR. HUNTER: Two positions?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Also, Mr. Minister, there was still an increase on 2.1.04., Insurance and Pensions, from budgeted to the Estimates. What initiated the increase in Salaries?

MR. McLEAN: Under .01?

MR. HUNTER: Under .01.

MR. McLEAN: From $423,900 to $428,900?

MS S. OSBORNE: No, from $388,300 to $423,900.

MR. McLEAN: Okay. What was that one, Barb?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Okay, it is was the reinstatement of funding for a position that was inadvertently omitted last year. Somebody did not pick it up last year. It was a regular position but we did not budget for it last year so we had to put it in 1998.

MR. HUNTER: Was that for anything like secretarial support or office support?

MR. McLEAN: No, that probably would have been for one of the officers in that division.

MR. HUNTER: What were the duties of the officer?

MR. McLEAN: I do not know. What specific duties, Wins?

MR. MORRIS: The particular position that was inadvertently omitted the previous year was actually the pension analyst, an individual who we administer to supervise pension plans throughout the Province. There are two staff in that division and one of them, the analyst, was inadvertently omitted. She has been there for a number of years but it was just an error in last year's budget. She stayed on staff; she did get paid. We found the money elsewhere.

MR. HUNTER: Under 3.3.01., page 49, Mr. Minister.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, Sir.

MR. HUNTER: Purchased Services, budgeted at $10,000 and estimated for $21,500. What does that include for Purchased Services?

MR. McLEAN: Okay, $21,500?

MR. HUNTER: Page 49, 3.3.01.06.

MR. McLEAN: The increase covered the cost of printing birth certificates, marriage certificates, marriage licenses and death certificates. The reason is that, previous to us taking Vital Statistics out of health and moving them all into our department, it was funded under the other department. We had to take on that budget as well when we took on all of these responsibilities.

MR. HUNTER: Okay.

Just above that, Mr. Minister, 3.2.02.01., there is some discrepancy in Salaries budgeted for 1998/1999, revised, and then the estimated. What would be the cause of that?

MR. McLEAN: There were a few vacancies created for part of the year, while the jobs were vacant, and then refilled.

MR. HUNTER: Was that any secretarial support staff?

MR. McLEAN: No, I think that would probably be the officers as well. I will ask - who is responsible for Vital Statistics, Donna?

We were changing people around, we were moving positions around. I think it would probably be officers, because all the secretarial staff we have had in place for the last few years. Most of the people we moved around were the actual officers who do the distribution of these certificates, licenses, and that sort of thing.

I do not know what they are called. What are the positions called, anyway, in that division, Vital Statistics?

MS KELLAND: I am sorry, Minister.

It is 3.3.01., Support Services?

MR. McLEAN: No, Vital Statistics Registry. That is the one you are on, isn't it?

MR. HUNTER: The one I asked you about, Salaries?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: It is 3.2.02.01.

MR. McLEAN: Sorry, I am on the wrong page.

MR. HUNTER: Page 49.

MS KELLAND: There were a couple of differences there. We shifted one position from regional services into support services. That was a word processing operator who had been working there anyway and we just shifted the - it was a reallocation of the dollars that we had from one division to another.

In addition, there were a couple of positions associated with our taking over of the liquor control function from the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, and those salaries came in part way through the year. That is where you see the differences year over year.

MR. HUNTER: On the next page, Mr. Minister, 4.1.01., page 50, the difference in .01., Salaries.

MR. McLEAN: That is in the Lands Division - Crown Lands it is called?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: The difference from the Revised or the Estimates for this year?

MR. HUNTER: The difference from the Revised to the Estimates, yes.

MR. McLEAN: We had additional funding to cover the cost of restructuring the division. I think we are putting four new staff in the Lands Division. Are we putting four new staff?

WITNESS: Six.

MR. McLEAN: Six new staff for the Lands Division. We talked earlier about improving the services, and this is (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: That was in different centres?

MR. McLEAN: I think they go into different service centres.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, into different areas. That is as a result of the review that we had done in the division. We took a large number of people out a few years ago, on the downsizing, and found we could not operate sufficiently with less than the six we need.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, has there been any addition to your office's support, secretarial staff?

MR. McLEAN: To mine?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, in the past few months?

MR. McLEAN: No, there has not.

MR. HUNTER: No support to your assistants - secretarial support to your assistants or ADMs or deputy ministers?

MR. McLEAN: No, I do not think, is there?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: That is not an ADM. No, there has not been.

MR. HUNTER: No extra employees hired in your department, in your office, in the past two or three months?

MR. McLEAN: For the department?

MR. HUNTER: In your office, in your immediate ministerial office.

MR. McLEAN: Are you talking about my office, the political office?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, in your office, not your outside district.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, my political office?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, your political office.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we had one employee transferred over. I am not sure where she came from. Where did she come from?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Executive -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: I think she was probably with the House.

MR. HUNTER: Are you at liberty to tell me the name?

MR. McLEAN: The name of the employee?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Andrea. What is her last name?

WITNESS: Kavanagh.

MR. McLEAN: Kavanagh.

MR. HUNTER: Andrea Kavanagh.

Mr. Minister, are you at liberty to tell me her salary?

MR. McLEAN: Her salary? I could not tell you; I do not know. I do not know if it is here. It is probably around $28,000 or $29,000 as far as I know.

MR. HUNTER: What would be her duties in that position?

MR. McLEAN: I guess a little bit of everything that needs to be done, no one particular function. She is not a clerk-typist or anything like that. She does -

MR. HUNTER: Is someone directly responsible for her...?

MR. McLEAN: Me.

MR. HUNTER: She works under you?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. She looks after me - is supposed to.

MR. HUNTER: Pardon?

MR. McLEAN: She is supposed to look after me.

MR. HUNTER: So there was only that one position in (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that is it.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Osborne.

MS S. OSBORNE: Motor vehicle inspections - to get licenses, motor vehicles still are not inspected, are they?

MR. McLEAN: Are you talking about the mandatory inspections?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Not for vehicles that are less than - how old?

If you resell a vehicle after it is seven or eight years old, you have to have it inspected. There is no mandatory inspection.

MS S. OSBORNE: No mandatory inspection no matter how old it is, is there?

MR. McLEAN: Only if you resell it; if you resell it or transfer the license over.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. HUNTER: Are you anticipating any change in that legislation?

MR. McLEAN: Not that I am familiar with right away. We had a study done in 1997 where we determined that we would drop the mandatory inspections because it was more of a rip-off than anything else. It was not doing the job that it was supposed to do.

MR. HUNTER: Sheila brought it up, and I am after getting several calls from small garage owners in my district -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we get them all the time.

MR. HUNTER: - complaining about people coming in with ball joints falling off, and tow truck operators going out and picking up vehicles with tie-rod ends off, ball joints off, and stuff like that. Is it time now to have another look at that again?

MR. McLEAN: We are constantly reviewing it. We have our inspectors out on the highway as well. They go out and do spot checks on the highway and at times they require vehicles to be taken off the road because of problems with brakes or whatever. That is the process we are using now instead of the mandatory inspections. According to the enforcement agencies, these seem to working fairly well.

MS S. OSBORNE: Do you have any data as to how many vehicles they have detected? How many have been picked up and determined they were not fit to be on the road?

MR. McLEAN: When any inspection is done there are always stats recorded of the numbers. Even if they are not taken off the road, if there are any deficiencies that are minor and require some repair or if they are major and need to be hauled off the road, all of these are recorded. We correlate that with the enforcement agencies as well, because they also do inspections.

MS S. OSBORNE: If somebody was found to be in violation, would that be reported to the RNC or the RCMP, the license plates, so that car would be monitored until it was in fact made road safe?

MR. McLEAN: Well, if it is a situation where they are hauled off the road, they would not be allowed back on the road until that work is done.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Are you getting any fallout - not in terms of telephone calls from garage owners because of loss of revenue, but are you getting any fallout other than that - in terms of more accidents or anything because cars are not roadworthy?

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no indication that accidents have increased because of mechanical failure. Over the last number of years, the increase in automobile accidents has been caused by driver faults.

MS S. OSBORNE: Drivers who are not roadworthy.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, driver faults or alcohol.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: That is the biggest situation.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

MR. McLEAN: That is why we brought in the graduated driver's license. As you understand from the House, I have been up and down on that.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Hunter.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, have you planned on increasing or buying new vehicles for the department this year, or replacing existing vehicles? Are there any plans to add to the fleet of vehicles in your department?

MR. McLEAN: Generally what we do with vehicle replacement is, if there are requirements to replace vehicles, we will find savings at the end of the year from our existing budget. If there are those savings there, we will be able to purchase new vehicles.

At certain intervals you have to replace them because, for our enforcement officers to be out there, you have to have roadworthy vehicles for them. When you get up into vehicles that are of age, we really need to get new vehicles in place. That is how we replace them.

MR. HUNTER: Are there plans in this budget to buy new vehicles?

MR. McLEAN: No, we will not know until the end of the year really. If we have some savings in certain areas we can replace a few vehicles, but we do not have any set budget for replacing X number of vehicles. We try to do so many a year because we have to keep the fleet up. We inspect vehicles so we cannot get out on the road with vehicles that are not roadworthy.

MR. HUNTER: I was wondering if you were increasing your fleet this year because increased -

MR. McLEAN: No, it is pretty standard.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.

Mr. Sweeney, you had four words to say?

MR. SWEENEY: Just a couple, yes.

Mr. Minister, I would just like to say that your department has done something over the past number of years even though you are in your infancy stages of developing a great department. You have put back two words which the public thought for years could not belong - government and services. You have done that and I must say, from my travels around the Province, the offices that you have opened... More in particular, I guess, I bring you some positive feedback regarding the office in my area, in my own district. That is the one in Harbour Grace. The comments I am hearing are unbelievable and it certainly speaks volumes for the work that you and your executive and staff have done. I can only say, keep up the good work and it will work out I am sure. You will work out the bugs and the glitches that comes with any new department.

Thanks very much.

MR. McLEAN: It is interesting that the one George mentioned used to be called the Pirates Cave in Harbour Grace. First when we - just a little anecdote - when we awarded the tender to this guy who owned this place, a lot of people came in to us and said: What are you doing? You are going to take that dumpy place - because some people hated it and some people, I guess, used it - it was club, and they figured we were moving into a dive. I think if you go out there now, it is a lot different. We took it and turned it around into a place that was respectable in the community, rather than a dump.

MR. SWEENEY: It has come a long way.

MR. McLEAN: I appreciate you comments, George.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, will you consider opening another service centre in Springdale?

MR. McLEAN: We will work through the system and the process. Actually, we had a meeting with Port aux Basques this morning - Mayor Sheaves - about (inaudible) services.

MS S. OSBORNE: If you find a dump out there and you can turn it into (inaudible).

CHAIR: Alright. Before I -

MR. SWEENEY: I would just like to say (inaudible) that if we had an official opening out there some day, it would be great.

MR. McLEAN: I think we should do it sooner rather than later.

MR. SWEENEY: I think the public is waiting for -

MR. McLEAN: I am sure they are.

MR. SWEENEY: Right now it is like a closely guarded secret. I think we need something, a little bit of hoopla, a few balloons hung on the sign or whatever, just to let everybody know it is there.

CHAIR: Alright, Mr. Sweeney, I know you need the plug out there, right?

Before I ask the Clerk to call the heads, did everybody have an opportunity to look at the minutes from the last meeting? If so, can we have somebody move those minutes?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through to 4.1.05., carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: On behalf of the Committee, Mr. Minister, I want to thank you and your staff for appearing. We are quite pleased with the answers you gave. We have had a thorough review, I think, of your department. We certainly look forward to seeing you again in the House to finish the debate, and we look forward to seeing you next year when we review your Estimates again.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank my staff for coming forward. I would say to anybody here that we are wide and free and open, any time you want to ask questions or find out anything.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Could somebody move adjournment?