Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis, substitutes for Harvey Hodder, MHA for Waterford Valley.

The Committee met at 5:00 p.m. in Room 5083, Confederation Building.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

My name is Ralph Wiseman, Chairman of the Government Services Committee. The purpose of this meeting tonight is to review the Estimates of the Public Service Commission. On behalf of the Committee, I want to welcome the minister and her staff. The practice has been, Minister, that you have fifteen minutes, if you so desire, to introduce your Estimates. That is only if you desire.

The Vice-Chairman, I guess, in this case - I do not know who is filling in for -

MR. J. BYRNE: I am filling in for Harvey.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Byrne is filling in, so you will have fifteen minutes in which to respond.

I will introduce to you, for recording purposes, the members of the Committee. They are: Mr. J. Byrne, who is the Vice-Chairman tonight; Mr. Fitzgerald; Mr. Andersen; Mr. Sweeney; and we have Mr. Joyce who is unavoidably delayed but will be along shortly.

Before we begin tonight, some business the Committee has to deal with is the minutes of our last meeting. The Committee has had an opportunity to review the minutes. If there are no errors or omissions, would somebody move that these minutes be adopted as read?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, you will have an opportunity, when you begin, to introduce your staff. I will ask the Clerk now to call the head and you can then begin.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Thank you.

You may go ahead, Minister.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to introduce my staff. To my far right is Mr. Bert Edison, Director of Staffing and Compliance. Next to myself is Mr. Fonse Faour, who is Chairman and CEO of the Public Service Commission.

As you indicated, you have allowed me fifteen minutes to give an overview of the Public Service Commission. I do not think I will need all that time but I think I will give you an overview to begin with.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, this is the first time that I have had the responsibility to report to you in relation to the operations and mandate of the Public Service Commission. In fact, it is the first time that I have had the opportunity to be in this position, as minister, dealing with the Estimates, so it is historical in fact.

The Public Service Commission is the statutory body with a degree of independence from the ministry; in other words, an arm's-length arrangement. By doing this, it enables the Commission to have effective oversight over the protection of the merit principle in recruitment, to credibly deliver services such as the Employee Assistance Program, and to foster innovation in public administration.

Now I will just tell you a little bit about the background. The Public Service Commission was established in 1974 as the primary institution of government to oversee recruitment and staff development processes. The objective was to ensure a professional, non-partisan public service to serve democratically-elected government in this Province.

The Commission, as the agency dedicated to good public administration in the Province, is responsible for overseeing human resource processes in all government departments and several agencies, including: The College of the North Atlantic, the Pippy Park Commission, the Public Libraries Board and the Medical Care Commission.

In 1996, as part of a reevaluation of the role of the Commission, a very positive policy decision was made to delegate the staffing process to all line departments and agencies. This changed a significant part of the Commission's focus, from actually performing the staffing process on behalf of departments to setting standards and providing training to departmental human resources personnel to facilitate the staffing process within departments.

Some staffing actions, because of their importance or sensitivity, are still conducted by the Commission. Departments find the availability of an independent and expert recruitment service is critical in such circumstances. The delegation has generally meant a more flexible and streamlined staffing process performed by people closest to departmental activities, without the need of dealing with a central agency.

I just want to tell you about the current status. Under the public service reform initiative, strategic planning has been introduced. Activities in management development and staff training increased, and a host of other projects initiated aimed at improving how the organization operates and building capacity so that government's goals may be achieved. Essentially, the objective of this initiative is to foster and maintain good public administration.

The Public Service Commission continues to be in a state of transition. With the new leadership and a renewed focus, the management structure has been reestablished within the last few months, and the Commission is once again beginning to take a more activist role in ensuring the continuation of a strong and vital public service of the Province.

The Commission carries out its statutory mandate through three divisions, and each is responsible for a distinct operational area: (1) staffing and compliance; (2) employee and departmental services; (3) policy and planning.

Firstly, the Staffing and Compliance Division fulfils the core legislated mandate of the Commission as determined by the Public Service Commission Act. This mandate is to ensure that merit principles prevail in the staffing processes. Merit principles are designed to support a professional, competent and politically neutral public service which provides good public administration in support of democratic government. The division accomplishes its goals by establishing standards, policies and procedures for appointment and promotion to permanent full-time public service positions. Through a process of monitoring and review, the division oversees the staffing process in all departments. As part of its oversight role, the division investigates and mediates complaints that may arise from the delegating, staffing process. The division also participates in and manages workforce adjustment programs.

Secondly, the Employee and Departmental Services Division is responsible, on behalf of government as the employer, and the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees as bargaining agent, for the effective deployment of the Employee Assistance Program. In addition, it provides support for significant organizational change by delivering services to both employees and departments experiencing organizational change. Some of these services have focused on assisting employees with the demand changes in their working environments and their adaptation to significant changes in their career paths.

This division has also taken a lead role within government in the development and facilitation of programs to foster a respectful approach to conflict resolution in the workplace. It is investigating the concept of employee wellness, and how the working environment may impact on organizational productivity and effectiveness.

Research in other jurisdictions has shown a significant impact on work performance by the implementation of these programs. The studies show that between 20 per cent and 25 per cent of a given group of employees will have, within a three-year period, personal problems that have a negative impact on work performance. For every dollar spent on EAP and similar programs, the studies indicate savings in the range of four to eleven dollars.

The Policy and Planning Division is responsible for the consultation, development, facilitation and implementation of public service reform, aimed at improvements to human resource and organizational management. This has been one of the significant changes in the Commission during the past year, and one of the key events driving its revitalization as well as the revitalization of the public service generally.

In summation, I would like to say to the members of the Committee, the public service has a new vision. The Public Service Commission intends to see that the public service of Newfoundland and Labrador is on the leading edge of human resource planning and management. It intends to ensure, through research and development, that senior managers are current in their thinking and application of new approaches and techniques to human relations, equity and fairness in the public service.

The Public Service Commission, and public service reform, has been a participant in all these innovations. The continuation of this work is important to employees in the public service, to those of us who are elected representatives of the people of the Province, and to all citizens, as a vital public service that will help us face the many public challenges this Province faces.

In conclusion, I want to remind you again of the significant changes taking place in the Public Service Commission. Our consideration of the Estimates for the Commission needs to be seen in that context. An examination of last year's budget reflects this transition, with several variances which we will be happy to discuss with you.

In addition, I am confident that the new direction of the Commission will lead to better results for the public service and the people of the Province.

Thank you, and we will be pleased to answer any questions that you might have.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It seems to me that this government administration, when it comes to the Public Service Commission, are in a state of (inaudible). They are certainly flip-flopping all over the place with respect to the Public Service Commission.

Back three years ago when you had the change in policy - I am talking of staffing to line department - I remember questioning the Minister of Finance at the time. He was saying at the time that the reason we were doing that was that it would be more efficient, more effective, and all (inaudible). Now we are saying that the Public Service Commission is going to be in a state of transition and they are going to go back to that type of thing.

In actual fact, when the Public Service Commission was set up - what you said there - the merit principle for recruitment was definitely the intention at the time, but over the past three years we have seen a lot of people hired in government, from what I can see, and they have not gone through the Public Service Commission. That, to me, left the door wide open for a lot of public or political appointments in positions in the line departments, without a merit principle. I can think of a few, actually, in certain departments, that I can point out to you.

I would just like to hear what your comments are on my comments.

MS THISTLE: Well, I would have to say to you, Mr. Byrne, that yes, since 1996 there was a change in focus that the hirings are now done by the department. The reason for that is that it gives greater flexibility to the department. I would also have to say to you that it is a real cost saver.

At that time, in 1996, we had forty-four staff members dedicated to that responsibility. Now that number has dropped down to twenty-three. With your reference as well to the hiring practices, each hiring has been audited. Every single one has been audited by the Public Service Commission; every hiring in every department during the course of the last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: But once the hiring is done, it is different than looking at a specific person and saying: Okay, this person is in a job, and may be qualified to do the job, or has certain qualifications for it - I do not know (inaudible) question - and say the Public Service Commission looked at it after they were hired, then again, what about the two, three, ten, fifteen or twenty people who may have been interested in applying for that position had it been advertised through the Public Service Commission, who did not have access or a chance to get hired through the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, basically what is happening, the best ones who would be aware of the need and the recruitment and access to employees are the people who actually work in the department; for instance, deputy ministers. They would have a better and keener knowledge of the staff necessary to fill whatever responsibilities are within their department. The process that occurred before was timely, costly, and very inconvenient.

What we see now is greater flexibility in the hiring process, and we also have a guarantee that each hiring is audited. We also have staffing that is looked at independently by the Public Service Commission when there are sensitive issues involved.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you go with that train of thought, in saying there is better hiring done through the line departments, and the different corporations they are responsible for, like the Public Service Commission, why is it a necessity at this point in time - you just mentioned that in fact, at the time this person put it together back in 1974, I think it was you said - that it was timely at the time. Is it a necessity now for the Public Service Commission (inaudible)?

MS THISTLE: If you look back to 1996, you will agree, I am sure, that this government was faced with a very serious deficit problem - almost $300 million. As part of our program review - the Public Service Commission did not escape program review. In looking at program review within our public service, there was a policy change that was made for two or three reasons as I have indicated earlier: To delegate more flexibility at the department level; to provide a cost-saver to the department and government overall; and to allow for more convenience and actually a greater handle on the need to hire people that the deputy minister could see directly within his or her department; the need of hiring someone right away rather than going through the Public Service Commission. But that did not preclude the fact that there was a complete audit done on every hiring within every department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Speaking of the audit, I have a few questions along that line. In the meantime, I notice in the Budget that Salaries have gone up this year. I had a note made earlier that there were extra staff that the Public Service Commission required recently (inaudible). Could you explain to me why that staff would be necessary at this point in time when, in actual fact, more hiring is being done through the line departments rather than through the Public Service Commission? Why are we hiring more people at the Public Service Commission? And did those people - whoever were hired - have to go through the Public Service Commission to get hired, or were they just appointed?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, if you are referring to Salaries, $1.2 million - you are, aren't you?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, that and the -

MS THISTLE: The increase at that time was actually $85,200 and there was an additional $150,000 that was provided for the Graduate Recruitment Program and was offset by a reduction due to the non-recurrent twenty-seventh pay period during that time frame. However, with regard to the actual staffing complement, I will now ask the Chairman to elaborate on that.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Minister and Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

CHAIR: Could you identify yourself for recording purposes? I am sorry, I forgot to mention that.

MR. FAOUR: Alright, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Fonse Faour from the Public Service Commission.

Mr. Byrne, I guess a couple of points. First, the Public Service Commission has not increased the staff complement, in terms of new staff, from last year. We did transfer four positions from the Executive Council last year, in July or August - late July - who were the staff responsible for the public service reform initiative, but those were existing staff already; they were not new hires.

The Public Service Commission, in July, had a staff complement of eighteen with the four, and that was reduced from approximately forty about two years ago. The four staff that came from Executive Council with the respect to the public service reform initiative were staff already in place. Now the Public Service Commission has a staff complement of twenty-two.

We do have occasionally, because of special projects which receive funding from other sources, we may have one or two individuals on projects. Right now we do have two other people on special projects, but in terms of the permanent staff complement it has not changed.

MR. J. BYRNE: These four individuals from the Executive Council, what were they responsible for at Executive Council, and what was the necessity of (inaudible)?

MR. FAOUR: They were responsible for the public service reform initiative, and for that purpose had been seconded from some other parts of government, from the training area. One, in fact, came originally from the PSC but the position was transferred out or terminated with the downsizing of the PSC.

Public service reform, two years ago, was a new initiative and it was designed to revitalized, I guess, the public service following the several years of downsizing that the public service had undergone. Over the last couple of years - it began its operations in early 1997 and, the work it was doing, it seemed logical that it should continue its work as part of the Commission. The kind of work it was involved in was the kind of things you need to do to maintain a professional public service organization, and traditionally that has been the role of the public service in addition to the staffing role. The staffing role was the core role, but the Public Service Commission historically, over its twenty-five year history, has had a significant involvement in things like management development, executive development, those kinds of things.

MR. J. BYRNE: Temporary positions and contractual positions can be hired outside the Public Service Commission, and there have been a fair number of them over the past few years, I do believe. I have two things to ask you with respect to these.

Number one: I do not think there should be a big problem - I thought there might be at first, but since the minister answered that there has been an audit done on all the positions hired within the civil service, and the corporations responsible for them - since 1996 when the policy changed, could I get a list of the temporary and/or contractual positions that have been given to individuals since 1996, since the policy change, and the applicable departments and positions?

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Byrne, the Commission has no involvement in temporary and contractual hires. What it does have is a direct responsibility for permanent hires within the public service. We may have an involvement in a temporary hire if a temporary position is sought to be made permanent after the fact, and we would be very much involved in that. The temporary and contractual positions and appointments are exempted from the Public Service Commission Act by the Act itself. We do not monitor that; we do not have a record of it.

If departments are planning -

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I interrupt here?

MR. FAOUR: Sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: It was stated by the minister that all positions are audited by the Public Service Commission, or have been audited by the Public Service Commission. If that is the case, then particularly permanent positions should not be a problem.

If it is temporary and contractual positions within line departments and corporations that you are not responsible for, then I will direct my question to the minister; because she had (inaudible) to me the hiring of temporary and contractual positions in the departments, and the positions.

I also want a list - if I can get it - from the Public Service Commission, of people who were hired through the Public Service Commission and their staff, or the departments they were hiring for, and the temporary positions. I want, basically, two lists. The other one would be the ones who were hired outside the Public Service Commission.

What I am trying to get a handle on, I suppose, is: How many people have been hired over the past three years, since the policy changed, through the Public Service Commission, outside the Public Service Commission, and the temporary and contractual positions (inaudible). You are the minister and you are the director, is it, of the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: Chairman and CEO.

MR. J. BYRNE: Chairman and CEO.

I do not think that is -

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, I would have to say to you that I would accept your request in writing and I will respond to you. Would you please put your request in writing?

MR. J. BYRNE: Should I also put in a request to the CEO?

MS THISTLE: Well, you can put your request to me. I will check on that through the act and, if it is applicable, you will get the information you require.

WITNESS: If it is applicable (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: If it is within the act.

All I am saying to you, Mr. Byrne, is to put your request in writing and I will review your request and respond to you accordingly.

MR. J. BYRNE: I shall do that. It will not be a problem.

I have no further questions at this point.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Just a comment, Sir.

I know the changes at the Public Service Commission have helped with training and helped with staff development. Personally, I know a lot of people who went through it. I would like to congratulate the Public Service Commission because I know a lot of people who went through your program, and it is definitely a benefit in the last three years.

Congratulations. I think it is making a difference, upgrading the level of people, and they know they have a place to go for assistance. I think you program is working.

CHAIR: Mr. Fitzgerald.

MS THISTLE: Could I please respond to Mr. Joyce, Mr. Chairman?

I have had the opportunity to actually have two speaking engagements to the public sector employees since becoming appointed to this position, and I was so pleased with the response and the feeling that is out there today in the public service. There is a feeling of stability, and I am sure you will all agree that was not there three years ago when the pre-Christmas adjustment was done and most public sector employees were pretty worried about their jobs before Christmas when budget adjustments were done.

I think, if you speak to anybody out there today, that since the program review there has been a different measure of stability within the public sector employee group. People are now feeling comfortable in going out and getting on with their lives, and making big decisions they had on hold for many years. A lot of it is largely attributed to the work of the Commission, particularly in lifting the morale in new training initiatives and so on.

I, too, would like to congratulate the executive and the staff on a continuing job that is well done.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have a lot of questions. In fact, Minister, I guess this particular department, the Public Service Commission, is probably the smallest heading within the Estimates.

Where is the Sir Brian Dunfield Building?

MS THISTLE: That is in Corner Brook, the Sir Brian Dunfield Building. Isn't it? Where is it?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FAOUR: It is the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation building in the West End of St. John's.

MS THISTLE: Is that what it is called?

MR. FAOUR: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: That makes two of us, because I did not know either. When I looked at it I thought it might have been in Corner Brook or somewhere on the West Coast. (Inaudible) -

MR. FAOUR: Maybe if we could arrange that, with the approval of the minister.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) I was going to ask if you paid for the wages and the trips back and forth.

MS THISTLE: What is the name of (inaudible)?

MR. FAOUR: The Sir Richard Squires Building.

MS THISTLE: The Sir Richard Squires Building, is it? Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) housing (inaudible).

MR. ANDERSEN: There is another one, the George Dunphy Building in Corner Brook, too.

MS THISTLE: Yes, there is.

MR. ANDERSEN: On Main Street there.

MS THISTLE: I thought it was. That is why it sounded (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I just wanted to go down through some of the Estimates here. I understand Mr. Faour said there were twenty-two employees within the Public Service Commission. In Transportation and Communications, those numbers to me seem kind of high. I do not know what is included under Communications: telephones I guess, and that sort of thing. For twenty-two employees, $149,600 seems kind of high. What else should be included in that? Is it strictly Transportation and Communications, telephone bills, et cetera?

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Fitzgerald, the Commission's work is Province-wide in terms of monitoring and reviewing staffing transactions. Often these staffing transactions happen in different parts of the Province. It is necessary to travel for the process of review and monitoring transactions, and also to conduct training sessions for HR managers in the various departments in different regions for the staffing process.

A significant part of the Transportation relates to two programs, I guess. There is the Employee Assistance Program, where there is a number of courses and training sessions in response to organizational change; programs we call Fostering Resilience, things like that, where there has been significant change in the organization in recent years. These programs are run all over the Province for public employees and they assist employees in renewing their skills in terms of their career paths and their career directions, given that the organization is changing quite dramatically.

The final significant project area is in the public service reform area. Again, we have made a strong effort to make sure that the initiatives are not confined to St. John's. When we conduct sessions in Gander, Clarenville, Corner Brook and Goose Bay for public employees in those areas - and we are trying to do it on a fairly regular basis throughout the year - there are significant costs associated with them.

As to transportation, I guess it is fair to say that most of our professional staff travel on a fairly regular basis around the Province in putting forth their programs. I should say as well that last year we were in a state of transition and it is reflected in the fact that our actual expenditures in this area were somewhat lower than they had been historically. We had requested the amount you see there as an historical amount based on our expectation that as we get through the transition period we will be raising our level of activity outside St. John's again.

MR. FITZGERALD: What kind of Professional Services would the PSC use?

MR. FAOUR: The bulk of Professional Services is in contracted services for the Employee Assistance Program: Counsellors, people who can intervene in a personal crisis situation. The EAP is a program run by the Commission on behalf of the union and the government as the employer. A significant chunk of the service is provided to individuals by professional counsellors from outside the government, mainly because we need them in all parts of the Province and we need to be able to engage them as we need them. A crisis may come up at fairly short notice. The bulk of that is in that area.

MR. FITZGERALD: Would those types of services be advertised for, or would you be using them from another department of government? How would I get my name included in your list of professional services whom you might call if the need arose?

MR. FAOUR: Our staff has a list of all the qualified counsellors around the Province and works with them to ensure that they could provide the service for the EAP program. I don't believe it has been advertised in recent years. It may be something we should do. What ends up happening is these services tend to be needed at a fairly short notice because of an urgent need at the moment.

One of the things we have talked about is having a pre-qualifying process where people would be pre-qualified to be on a list that could be accessed.

MR. FITZGERALD: It would be nice if those people knew that so that they could have their name added to the list because work is important.

When you look at advertising for positions within the Public Service Commission, or you apply through the Public Service Commission, are you people now advertising in the daily papers as you always did or is it going to an electronic media? I understand Works, Services and Transportation is putting many of their contracts out through calls through the electronic media and the Internet. Are you people thinking about doing the same thing? Are you planning on committing to use the print media?

MR. FAOUR: I guess we have been expanding in a couple of areas. One, we have been using the Internet for job postings for - I am not sure (inaudible). We have been using it for some time.

WITNESS: Six months.

MR. FAOUR: About six months, and we have also, just in November, begun an initiative to cooperate with the federal government on a program we call InfoTel. The federal government through its PSC has a phone-in service. Provincial government job openings can be advertised on that phone-in service as well. So besides using print media we are using telephone and we are using the Internet. We are looking to expand these areas as -

MR. FITZGERALD: But you will maintain the print media as well?

MR. FAOUR: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It was only the other day - and I don't even know where I saw it - where I understand there are a couple of companies now that contractors must pay $360 a year to be a member of. Government contracts, tenders, will go to those particular companies and those companies in turn will relay them to the people who are registered with them.

I think that is terrible. I don't think people should have to pay $300 or $100 to a company to get information that is being brought forward by government. I think that should be readily available. When you look at the electronic media - that is good stuff, nothing wrong with it, to use it in conjunction with something else - but there are a lot of places in rural Newfoundland and Labrador today that don't have access to the Internet. There are a lot of families out there who do not have access to computers and probably never will, and businesses as well. The paper is readily available. It is inexpensive and it is something that I think should be maintained. I just want to leave that for my comments on that particular topic.

Under Allowances and Assistance, there was nothing budgeted in 1998-1999. It was revised to $86,500 and this year it is $115,000. What allowances and assistance would be included in those figures?

MS THISTLE: That one, Mr. Fitzgerald, was the provision of an allowance to MUN to cover the salary of Robert Olivero as a fellow of the J.G. Channing Chair. That is the annualization of the allowance to MUN. So that was a one time thing.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) this year.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but it is an annual thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Then why (inaudible)?

MS THISTLE: Wasn't it? (Inaudible)?

MR. FITZGERALD: So is it a set amount?

MS THISTLE: Yes. (Inaudible).

MR. FAOUR: If I may? The Channing Chair has been used in the past, since the early 1980s. The government of the day brought it in as a way of increasing connections between the public service and the university. The way it was used through most of the 1980s, and until the early 1990s, was that senior public servants may be seconded for one, two, or three years to the university but we would pay their salary. We have not used it in recent years, again because of fiscal pressures.

This past year we were concerned that there was a need to develop public administration capacity in the Province, ideally at the university. Mr. Olivero, as the former chair of the Commission, has an academic background. It was viewed as a positive thing to put him at the university and reinstate the Channing Chair. Traditionally, the Channing Chair has been funded through the Public Service Commission as a development opportunity for the public service. So what that reflects is the reinstatement of a program that had not been used for - I think the last time it was used was in 1990 or 1991.

MR. FITZGERALD: So where does it end up? It was $86,500, now it is $115,000. It is not a set amount that you put forward every year, obviously.

MR. FAOUR: It will be $115,000 approximately. As I understand the contract, he will get the salary he had here plus a small operating allowance. The university will provide office support and so on. The $86,500 in last year's budget was because it was for nine months of the year. So it will be $115,000 until this one expires.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzgerald.

Any questions on this side?

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to make it clear. I am not - I'm referring to the comment of Mr. Joyce - criticizing the Public Service Commission, because I think the Public Service Commission is an entity that was put in place at the right time, and is something that should be utilized by government. I disagree with government and line departments hiring people through departments. The Public Service Commission is there for a purpose. It should still be utilized and I am not criticizing what is going on there. There may be many good things happening, but it is not being utilized to the full extent that it could perform, and I disagree with the (inaudible) change.

I said that three years ago when I asked questions of Mr. Dicks in the House of Assembly. Basically, it is a fine department. If I have any other questions I will put them in writing to the minister (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, before we conclude I would just like, for the record, to direct, really to Mr. Byrne, this comment. The audit I talked about that was conducted by the Public Service Commission, I said on all positions. I meant to specify permanent positions. I would like to state for the record that that was intended to be permanent positions.

I would also like to mention that Public Service Week is June 14 to June 18. It is another time for us to acknowledge our public servants. I would like to thank this Committee here today for your oral questions and good dialogue.

MR. JOYCE: Could I just ask one question?

CHAIR: Sure.

MR. JOYCE: The Opening Doors policy, is that under the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: That is under Treasury Board, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Treasury Board. I think that is an ideal program. I think it is a program that is helping a lot of people who otherwise would not gain the experience through, sometimes, drawbacks or (inaudible) they may have. If there is any way to enhance that program, I think it would bring a lot less fortunate people into the mainstream. I think it is a great program if we could enhance it.

MS THISTLE: It is. That is a program that is cost-shared between the federal and provincial governments. It has been a wonderful program, as Mr. Joyce has said. An awful lot of people with disabilities who would not otherwise find employment have secured employment through that program and have been updating their skills and finding the dignity to work like other people. Yes, it is a very successful program.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I detect there are no more questions. I will now ask the Clerk to call the head.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01, carried.

On motion, Public Service Commission, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: On behalf of the Committee, Minister, I want to thank you for coming. I want to thank your staff for coming. I noticed that you noted you were new. Being new puts a fresh face on everything. The Public Service Commission has done a good job. We recognize that, and on behalf of the Committee say thank you for appearing here. We are pleased with the answers that we received. Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.