The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Joyce): Order, please!

We will start this as soon as possible. There are just a few small formalities. Whoever is speaking, would you please say your name first so we can have it on record, and we will ask everybody here to introduce themselves.

Mr. Wiseman - if you would all introduce yourselves around the table.

MR. WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA, Topsail.

MR. LUSH: Tom Lush, MHA, Terra Nova.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA, Torngat Mountains.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA, Cape St. Francis.

MR. H. HODDER: Harvey Hodder, MHA, Waterford Valley.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA, Grand Falls-Buchans, President of Treasury Board.

MR. FAOUR: Phonse Faour, Chairman of the Public Service Commission.

MS DEVINE: Sheila Devine, Commissioner with the Public Service Commission.

CHAIR: Okay, we will ask the minister for her opening remarks.

MS THISTLE: Good morning, everybody. It is a great day outside.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Oh, you are most welcome. Unfortunately not all of us could make it, but maybe another time.

I would like to welcome Phonse and Sheila here this morning, and you will be hearing from them later on.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I have had the responsibility to report to you on the activities and the vision of the Public Service Commission. The public service is an important part of government process; a part such that, if it is not professional, competent, non-partisan, and an effective tool, the process of governance would be chaotic and perhaps impossible. The Commission is mandated by government and by the Legislature under the Public Service Commission Act to provide effective oversight of the merit principle in the recruitment process; deliver confidential and credible services such as the Employee Assistance Program and employee wellness; provide conceptual leadership and innovation in public administration.

The Commission celebrated twenty-five years of credible service to the Province in 1999. I must say, during that time, we had several celebrations. It was just a wonderful event.

Government has recognized the importance of the Public Service Commission Act through a renewed thrust from government to build the public service into a vibrant and proud workforce, the employer of choice. The Commission has been tasked by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to preside over public service reform and the organizational development initiative fund. For the fiscal year 2000-2001 the Commission has received $3.6 million in requests from departments and central agencies; however, the program itself is a $2 million program. These project requests include such areas as staff training, development, strategic and HR planning, awards and recognition. Awards and recognition; that is something that is very necessary to recognize the wonderful people who work for government. Many of them have been here a long time, so that is an important part of the Public Service Commission mandate.

The respectful workplace and wellness performance enhancement and communications - last year the Public Service Commission received funding to recruit five university graduates. I think you all remember they were here in the gallery a couple of weeks ago. They are from post-secondary institutions within the Province and Labrador. This program has been introduced as part of the broader initiative aimed at the development of the public service. The Graduate Recruitment Program has now been recognized as an ongoing program of the provincial government, intended to complement the current organization and bring into the public service young graduates who will be among the leaders of the future. The first five recruits began their internship in various assignments throughout government during the month of March, and fifteen additional graduates will be hired in this current fiscal year.

I had the opportunity to have lunch with the first five graduates, and these people were chosen out of 500. What a wonderful lunch we had. There was so much energy in the room and so much excitement at the prospects of working for government and the challenges that lay before them. It was really an exhilarating time.

Communication has and continues to be one of the public service's greatest challenges. The Commission has facilitated the establishment of two forums that, when linked, will provide a network for greater communication and understanding of each other in the structure of the public service. Regional councils have been established in each of the regions outside the Avalon, including Eastern, Western, Central and Labrador. These councils are comprised of senior representatives of all departments and agencies resident in the four regions. They have come together on a regular basis to discuss matters of mutual interest. As well, an annual senior management development conference has been established where all senior managers, deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers and directors come together to focus on matters of mutual concern.

The Deputy Minister's Forum, which meets weekly, has existed since 1996. It is the intention that these three forums be linked to establish a government-wide communication network. The Commission has facilitated a significant move towards the elimination of the backlog of classification appeals for bargaining unit positions. Following the appointment of new members to the appeal board, the board has been meeting regularly, making regional visits and dealing with the current appeals as well as the backlog. That was a problem, but this has been cleared up a great deal now in the past year or so. It is estimated that by fall the backlog will be eliminated.

The Commission has, in part, been focusing inwardly to re-establish its credibility through the development of a strategic plan that outlines the focus and structure of the Commission of the foreseeable future. A restructuring plan has been developed which will return focus and understanding of roles and responsibilities and facilitate the strengthening of the Commission mandate delivery.

The Commission has and continues to bring force and effect to its mandate. With the delegation of staffing to departments, the role of the Commission has changed significantly. It is our role to ensure that the hiring into the public service is guided by the merit principle. It is the intention of the Commission to provide thorough and continuous audit of the staffing actions by departments. This will be done by developing, in consultation with deputy ministers, an audit program that will ensure a strong, professional, non-partisan public service.

During the past fiscal year, a full audit of all competitions for 602 permanent positions was undertaken by Commission Officers. The results will be analyzed to identify areas where additional training is required or where administrative processes need to be improved. Generally, the results indicated that there is a high level of commitment to merit by all of those managers who chair selection boards on behalf of the Public Service Commission. Deputy ministers and directors of human resources have been most cooperative in this review. Further consultations are being held with deputy ministers in order to determine how the audit process can be improved.

The Public Service Commission is committed to ensuring deputy minister accountability in terms of the Public Service Commission Act, while providing executives with the flexibility to staff their departments in an efficient and timely manner.

Over the past decade, budgetary restraints and fiscal issues have greatly influenced the management of the public service. Since 1997 government has set out, as one of its strong agenda items, the revitalization of the public service, programs and services that will improve both the management of the public service and the quality of life of its employees. It is the intent of the Commission to raise the awareness of the importance of wellness in the workplace and encourage the sensitive management that will once again make the public service the employer of choice. This will be done by surveying other jurisdictions, consultations with employees, and developing programs of response.

Before concluding, I would like to reference suggestions made at last year's Estimates Committee meeting. As you are aware, the Commission is mandated to provide counseling through its employee assistance program. These counselors are generally professionals registered within their own professional associations. As a result of discussion with the Committee, the Public Service Committee has reviewed this issue and has determined that a public call for external providers for both the counseling services as well as a workshop facilitation service is required to ensure that any qualified provider across the Province is aware of this opportunity. The public call will be issued within the next month, and I acknowledge this suggestion by the previous Estimates Committee.

As I said to you last year, and it is worth repeating, the Public Service Commission has a new vision. The Commission intends to see that the public service of Newfoundland and Labrador is on the leading edge of human resource planning and management. A close partnership relationship between Treasury Board and the Commission will be necessary for optimum result.

The recognition that the most important tool of government is a strong, professional, non-partisan public service, and that it is critical to good governance, will be evident in a renewed and refreshed public service.

Last year, for the first time, this government recognized public service week, an opportunity to recognize and celebrate the contribution that public service employees make. As well, for the first time ever, a block party event was held in all regions of the Province. I believe many of you took part in the one that was held out here on the parking lot of Confederation Building. I know it was well-attended and people had a good time. I had the opportunity to attend the one in Grand Falls-Windsor and, I tell you, people there were so excited. It was the first time they had come together on an informal basis like that, from all over Central Newfoundland. It does wonders to improve the morale and let people know that they are appreciated.

Government departments, central agencies and public service employees at all levels took time to consider the work that public service employees do for the Province and to recognize the quality of that work. This year, government intends to support these and similar initiatives aimed at improving the public service and recognizing its employees. The Commission will be innovative. The Commission will promote and facilitate. The Commission will foster renewal in the public service, and the Commission will protect the integrity of the staffing process in government.

It is important that you be aware that the Commission's measure of success is restrained by the continuing status quo budget direction; however, we believe that the Commission can make a difference with the effect of application of available resources. Government and management attention to what the Commission calls a soft side is key to the establishment of a strong, professional, non-partisan public service.

These are my remarks and, of course, I would like to pass the mike now over to Mr. Phonse Faour, Chair and CEO, to add his remarks if he wishes. As this is a non-partisan Commission, please go ahead and direct any questions to Phonse, myself, or Sheila.

Thank you.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Minister.

There is not a lot I can add to what the minister has said. In my role as Chair of the Commission, I am committed, and the Commission itself is a highly motivated group of people who are committed to trying to make the public service an organization that can be the employer of choice. We are facing a lot of challenges. Some of them arising from the past, the fiscal pressures of the past, but some arising from things like demographic change in the public service. We are going to have a lot of turnover of staff over the next decade simply because - well, I don't know about you but I know I don't age. I look around me and everybody else is aging. I think that means that soon many of my colleagues will be retiring and we will have to replace them with young, vibrant and energetic people who will make sure the public service can continue to function well in serving the people of the Province.

We have to do two things, basically. One is to become an employer of choice and attract new people into the organization, but we also have to recognize that we have a lot of talent within the public service and we have to develop that talent and make sure that people within the public service can rise to become leaders of the organization into the future.

As the minister indicated, we are certainly here to answer questions about the mandate of the Commission and we would be happy to do so. This is an annual event for us. Last year was my first time at the Estimates Committee and I was a little apprehensive. This year I am not as apprehensive because I do know that you have an important task to ensure that government expenditures are properly spent and that, as head of the Commission, I am accountable to you for that.

Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I pass it back to you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and Mr. Faour.

Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: I want to thank you, Madam Minister and Mr. Faour.

If I could go right to the Estimates, on page 63, we note here the various headings. They number from 01. to 12. I wanted to start with 1.1.01.01, Salaries. We note that last year there was $1,225,700 allocated for Salaries. In actual fact there was $1,117,300 that was actually spent, but then the Estimate for this year sees a jump by $515,700 to $1,633,000. I wanted to ask why we had - which amounts to a significant increase - about a 25 per cent increase in salary allocation in one year.

MS THISTLE: The difference, the variance, there in the Budget was really - last year - delayed hiring the five new graduates. Although we did have funding approved, we received 500 applications and it took us a tremendous while to sort through those and actually come up with the five that we chose. Of course, the increase in the funding for this year's Budget is the fact that we are going to hire an additional fifteen business students under the program, which would bring the total to twenty in all.

MR. H. HODDER: There are no permanent positions as such? These graduate people are on for a definitive time and the money here is solely allocated for that part of your program?

MS THISTLE: It is. The graduates who are hired will go through a two-year training process and they will be able to have four segments of training which will be done in different departments of government. After that four segment training process is concluded, they will then have an opportunity to apply for any permanent position that is offered within government. Of course, each year from here on in we intend to hire an additional fifteen graduates and that number could increase depending upon our fiscal ability.

MR. H. HODDER: On the -

MR. FAOUR: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Go ahead, Mr. Faour.

MR. FAOUR: I am sorry, Mr. Hodder.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, the portion of our salary vote which relates to the staff of the Commission was fully utilized. The variances you see relate solely to the Graduate Recruitment Program that was instituted by government. The minister is right. It took us a long time to process those 500 applications. I should say, the problem was finding an objective way to assess that number when we weren't looking for specific skills. It is not like we were hiring somebody for a specific job where an objective assessment is fairly straightforward. In this case, we had people from all disciplines with varied backgrounds, and the objective process took us awhile to put in place.

The fact that we didn't spend our full allotment last year was because the students only came on late in the fiscal year. The increase for this year relates to the increase in the program. There is anticipated in the increase that there will be some lag in hiring, and we expect probably by the summer to have most of the new fifteen on the job.

MR. H. HODDER: We certainly support the hiring of the graduate group. We think it is a good thing to do. I was going to ask this question later, but, how did you come about the rational assessment? Did you do a future needs assessment within the various parts of the civil service? How did you come to a decision of picking five of the 500? What rational basis did we use for that?

MR. FAOUR: I guess we made the decision very early that the kind of people we wanted in this program were not specialists, people in specific skills areas. We did not want people with technical skills, or we did not want people with very specific management skills. We wanted generalists who had leadership abilities and leadership potential, bright people who could take on those leadership roles in the future.

I would say we underestimated the challenge of objectively assessing 500 people. In the end, in collaboration with the Government of Canada and the Public Service Commission of Canada, we administered a standardized test to all the applicants who were prepared to do it. From that testing, we took the top several dozen and interviewed them by a panel and made the selection based on that. That is basically what happened. It took us awhile to get the process in place. Now that we have established the process, our sense is that this year when we initiate the process fairly shortly to hire the new people, it should go much more smoothly.

MR. H. HODDER: So there was absolutely zero political interference with the process?

MR. FAOUR: I can say with confidence, absolutely none.

MR. H. HODDER: I think it is important for you to say that.

MS DEVINE: If I can just make a comment, there was certainly a lot of interest by, I guess, all politicians in the program but it was positive. It was in the sense of supporting the program and a lot of interest even in where the assignments would be.

To date, the five assignments that we have for these graduates are in St. John's. One of the areas we are very interested in looking at is that we certainly do not assume that these future leaders should all have their assignments in the Confederation Building. We are very interested in looking at good learning assignments for these people outside of St. John's, in the regions, and to learn that there is more to management of government than working in St. John's.

MR. H. HODDER: I have some background in the internship program that teachers would have been exposed to. We found in that, that we needed to move teachers from various parts of the Province so that they could get a pretty reasonable assessment of what it was like to be involved in public service in other parts of the Province, other than the St. John's region. I was going to ask a question as to when we anticipate that we can have people participating in this program in other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador, other than being located here in St. John's.

MS DEVINE: We will be going out very shortly to ask departments to identify these potential assignments. There are certain criteria for these assignments. They do have to be developmental, in the sense that there will opportunities for people to learn and work with other managers and with other levels of the organization. Certainly, we have been encouraging deputy ministers and other CEOs to look at the regional structures and see where they can come up with good, positive work assignments for them.

MR. H. HODDER: I have a couple of follow-up questions again. Have each of these five graduates been assigned a specific mentor, or have they been assigned a variety of mentors? How are these mentors selected?

MS. DEVINE: In developing the assignments with the central agencies and the deputies, we asked for the deputies to suggest people who would be good mentors for these individuals. Certainly, we were looking for people in departments who had all of the characteristics that we would be looking for in terms of future managers and leaders of the public service. The five mentors who have been proposed and are in place now for these five graduates, we are very happy with them. Again, we will be going out shortly to departments to ask for other suggestions in terms of other people who are prepared to be mentors to these new individuals who we will be hiring.

MR. H. HODDER: Is it fair to say that the mentors are not exclusively at the assistant deputy level, but there are very good mentors who are not at what I would call the executive level of the departments? How is that spread out? Is there a variety of mentoring groups?

MS. DEVINE: At this time, I think, four of the five mentors are at the ADM level, but one is at the director level. Again, we recognize that we need to have good mentors at all levels of the organization. Certainly to become a mentor is, in itself, recognition. I think the minister noted that in her comments. It is really an honor to be selected as a mentor and to be recommended.

Again, we will be suggesting to deputies that it doesn't necessarily have to be your senior director or ADM. We have very good managers throughout the system.

MR. H. HODDER: Because I have always said that some of the very best teachers in this Province never make principals, vice-principals or department heads, but they make excellent mentors. There is a message there that I think should apply to any level of the civil service.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I will pass to one of my colleagues.

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a few questions or points. With respect to the Estimates themselves, on page 63 - and I had a quick discussion before the hearing started this morning. There is not a lot of information there. I wonder, is it possible that we could get a better breakdown for the next Estimates Committee meetings for next year? Because I understand that you have three divisions there. I am going to ask a few questions on them in a minute.

This is pretty general here, I would think, one page for the whole Public Service Commission. Is it possible to have something beforehand, even a day or so before next year's meeting for the Estimates, so we can ask some more specific questions with respect to the expenditures? Does anybody want to comment on that?

MR. FAOUR: I believe that is entirely possible. In actual fact, in the past year we have been operating with the accounting as it is in the Estimates book. We found that inadequate ourselves, and we have just begun internally doing our accounting by division. It is not well-developed yet but my expectation is that, as we go through this year, by the end of the year we will be able to provide the information that you wish.

MR. J. BYRNE: I appreciate that. I may not even be on the Committee next year, but it would be nice to have.

With respect to the different divisions, would someone like to make a few comments? I understand there is the Employee Assistance Program. You talked about wellness, and you talked about recruitment and training, staff development and what have you. Would anybody like to make a few more comments on that, further to what the minister has said?

MR. FAOUR: Basically, when we look at the mandate that both the Legislature and the government have given the Commission, we come up with three broad areas which comprise, I guess, what we call our lines of business.

The first one arises from the Legislature and is the staffing function which is contained in the Public Service Commission Act. The Staffing and Compliance Division is responsible for overseeing the staffing and recruitment of permanent positions in the public service. It is responsible for setting the standards by which recruitments need to be made and by ensuring compliance through an audit process, investigations, looking at complaints, receiving complaints and investigating them. Generally, it is the division which has custody of the mandate set out in the Commission's act. That division also has a couple of other functions which have been given to it by government in terms of the management of the organization.

The minister referred to the Classification Appeal Board. While the board itself is not part of the Commission, administrative support to the board is, and that division supports that process. It also supports, in an administrative way, the management Classification Appeal Board and the management grievance process within government.

The other two divisions don't arise directly from the legislation, but arise from different initiatives within the government. The second division would be the Employee and Departmental Services Division. That division's primary program is the Employee Assistance Program which, of course, arises basically from a Memorandum of Understanding between the union, the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees, and the government dating back to 1984.

In 1984, the Commission was given responsibility to carry out this program on behalf of both the employer and the union. From that program, given that the program involves counseling of individual employees who may have problems of one sort or another, there have been some extensions from the program where the counseling program appears to identify problems in the workplace, whether problems of conflict between individuals, co-workers, or conflict between managers and staff, that are causing stress to individuals and distress for individuals.

From the initial starting point of the Employee Assistance Program come programs like the Respect for Workplace initiative which attempts to find a more reasonable way of dealing with conflict in the workplace. Employee wellness - encouraging employees to basically take care of themselves in the sense that a healthy employee is a more productive employee.

We have also talked a little bit about workplace wellness, whether there are management practices that might be better suited to ensuring employee productively or a lack of stress in the workplace which, of course, will help productivity in the long run. So there is a collection of services and programs which have come from the initial starting point of the Employee Assistance Program. That is generally in the second division.

The third division is called the Policy and Planning Division, and its mandate has been given to it by the government about two years ago to carry out the public service reform initiative and some of the initiatives attached to that. Public service reform - we talked about it last year, a bit - basically is an initiative to try to revitalize the public service, rebuild some of our HR capacity and our management capacity through programs like increased development and training, better planning processes and things like that. In addition, this is the division which has coordinated the development of senior management development programs, basically education and development programs for the executive and senior management group. It has also been instrumental in working on a proposal for a government-wide management development program for the broader management group. This division also is responsible for the strategic planning function within the Commission itself, so its program area is to serve government and the broader public service through coordination of the public service reform initiative, but we look to it as well internally for strategic planning.

Does that answer your question?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pretty well.

Just a couple of other questions. With respect to staff training and development, would that be utilized more by new employees coming into the system or would it be fifty-fifty with the existing employees? In a given year - say, for last year - how many people would actually take advantage of staff training and development?

MR. FAOUR: The Commission itself doesn't have custody of that program any more. That was moved to Treasury Board about three years ago. I should say that the function is aimed at all employees, not just new employees. In fact, my guess is that existing employees take advantage of it in much greater numbers than new employees. When it was at the Commission it was designed to provide an opportunity for employees to develop skills in areas that the organization needed. My understanding is that it is doing the same thing, but it is not within the Commission now. It is in Treasury Board.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a question for the minister.

You mentioned the importance of the Public Service Commission Act. It was my understanding, when the Public Service Commission was first put in place, it was to do pretty well all the hiring within government. Over the past few years I think there have been some changes there. There is more hiring done now through the line departments and what have you, especially in the temporary positions. It seems to me that government is doing a lot more hiring in temporary positions than they have in the past, for various reasons.

Is there any talk or has consideration been given to putting back the authority and responsibility to the Public Service Commission with respect to full hiring throughout the civil service, not only in government itself but the Crown corporations and what have you?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, in response to the question of the member opposite, that delegation of hiring practices within departments was done in 1998 and it has worked out quite well. In fact, as the Chairman and CEO, Mr. Faour, just alluded to, the audit is done by the Public Service Commission on all hirings. In fact, they conducted over 600 last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I just interject? When you say the audit has been done on over 600, the line departments do the hiring and then the Public Service Commission does an audit on the hiring in each position? Is that what happens?

MS THISTLE: That is correct. The Public Service Commission does an audit now on all hiring - departmental hiring - that are done through departments. Last year they actually audited -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is just for permanent positions, is it?

MS THISTLE: Permanent positions, correct.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, alright.

MS THISTLE: Of course, departments have the authority to hire on a temporary basis as well but, as I said, last year over 600 were audited. The report was just made by myself and also the Chair that - these are ongoing and we intend to do that. The Public Service Commission intends to do that on an annual basis.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it for me.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: Just a quick comment on the Public Service Commission. I think the point I am about to make is isolated. I feel sometimes that degrees that are required in some jobs advertised through the Public Service Commission sometimes don't always provide the best candidate. I know that in the case which I will mention - and I can certainly provide you with the information - after going through lengthy advertising for a candidate to fill a position where two were hired with degrees, that, because of the commonsense approach and the ability of a person to communicate and work in a certain environment, when an individual was given the opportunity, the program and the job have never worked better. Again, these are very isolated cases. I just want to make the point that sometimes I think the criteria that has to be met by certain jobs - and very isolated - that sometimes I feel hindered in probably getting the best candidate to do a job in a certain area.

That is all I want to say.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Lush.

MR. LUSH: I have a couple of comments as well, to congratulate the minister and her staff for the excellent job they do and the very important job in terms of ensuring that we have competent, efficient and effective workers within our public service. They play a vital and pivotal role to effective government. We have to look to these people for ideas and policies and they very often, particularly in the senior management positions, help develop policies for the Province and run the entire affairs of the Province. It is very important in this technological world they we have trained people, competent people, and I want to commend them on the Graduate Recruitment Program, which I think is an excellent program, ensuring that we have competent people for the future.

I would also commend you on your training and development program. It is so important that we have ongoing development in any particular sphere, particularly within government services. It is so important in Newfoundland where we are an island and we tend to become insular in our thinking, so I go for the broadest and the most comprehensive training to ensure that our people are on a level with the thinkers and the developers right across this country, and that we spare nothing in terms of ensuring that we have a competent workforce within the public service.

If I could give that encouragement and that bit of impetus, that we not be timid in terms of participating in training and development of our workforce because it is vital that we have a dynamic, competent workforce within the Province of Newfoundland, that is all I want to say.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Wiseman.

MR. WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just a quick comment to echo my colleague for Terra Nova. I want to congratulate the minister and her staff on the exceptional job that you are doing. Just for my own clarification, on the 600 audits, does that include all hiring, both temporary and full-time? Or did that audit include something other than hiring?

MS DEVINE: If I may comment, the 602 refer to filling of permanent positions within the public service; however, the Commission officers, in going out, also asked departments for the opportunity to review the processes used for temporary hiring. I do not have the statistics on those, and we did not audit the filling of every temporary position or every contact primarily because it is not within our legislative mandate to do so, but certainly we were interested to see the kinds of processes that were used in departments with temporary hiring.

MR. WISEMAN: Was that over a one, two or three year period?

MS DEVINE: We have undertaken this audit commencing in November and we are just about ready to conclude, but the act provides for us to review this process annually. In fact, we are required to do that.

MR. WISEMAN: Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, that's it for me.

CHAIR: Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much.

I wanted to go back to the audit. I am wondering if you could explain to me the processes that are used in the audit, and how the audit complies with the definition of a functioning audit, and if you could explain to me the whole audit process so that - we say the word audit but nobody has defined it.

MS DEVINE: If I could just comment. What we have are two Commission officers who visit each department and actually set up an office in each department. They conduct a review of every file on record which relates to a permanent appointment. They review the file in terms of the documentation in the file, but not merely to see if the Ts are crossed. They assess the actual file in terms of - for example, as Mr. Andersen indicated: Do the qualifications as identified in the ad make sense in relation to the kinds of work that this position will obviously be carrying out?

As well, in addition to looking at the file and following up if there is any problem or any questions around the documentation, the process also includes discussions with the HR managers within that particular department, discussions with the executive of the department, including the deputy minister. We also have this year, in terms of the audit, posted a notice to ensure that all public servants were aware that we are doing audits in departments and encouraging them, if they have comments either positive or if they have concerns, that they can reach the two Commission officers who are conducting the audits to offer their comments. We did that as a way of reaching all employees to ensure that we are not just looking at a file and talking to the directors and the executive but that all employees in departments have the opportunity to offer comment, whether positive or negative. Certainly we have had some employees who have taken us up on that request.

In the past as well, we have also gone out to people who are certified by the Commission to Chair selection boards and ask them to write us with their confidential comments with respect to how well the delegation process is occurring.

Another part of the process will be an actual review with each deputy minister of the delegation agreement. There is a delegation agreement signed with each deputy minister and CEO by the Commission. We will be individually reviewing these with deputies, as well as the results of the audit process.

MR. H. HODDER: When you have completed your audit process, are these reports then coordinated back to the human resources personnel within the various departments? How do we coordinate all of this within the various departments to make sure that the principles that need revision indeed do experience the revision, the upgrading and the changes that are necessary?

MS DEVINE: There are individual reports completed and compiled on each department summarizing the outcome and the specific processes used for the audit in that particular department or agency, and there are particular comments with respect to each department or agency. These are all compiled and presented to the Commission. As well, the Commission officers provide a general comment with respect to how well the delegation process is being undertaken across government. They are required as well to make suggestions with respect to any deficiencies or any problems, and suggestions for remedy. We also ask them to make suggestions as to how the audit process may be further improved, because we are always looking for other ways to assess how well this process is working.

MR. H. HODDER: I want to move for a few moments to those people who are working in the civil service but have not yet gained permanent status. As you know, there are many people in industry today - and I can think of people as varied as the Marystown Shipyard - where people are hired on for twenty-nine days and you know beforehand that when the twenty-eighth day arrives you are going to be laid off. In fact, in some cases you are given a layoff notice on the day you arrive. This is happening in industry. It is happening in the health services. It is happening to social workers who are told: Look, you are on for sixty days and you know on the fifty-ninth day that you are not back tomorrow. Now you may be back next week, because then you will be hired again for another sixty days.

The whole strategy is that we do not give these mostly young people permanent status. So we have a situation where temporary employees are hired for defined times, let go, and rehired. I talked to a person awhile ago who tells me that this has happened for years and years to them - this happened to be a social worker - and nobody seems to be championing their cause. You talk to the people in the department and they say: Well, you know, that's the way it is. You talk to the senior people and they say: Well, you know, that's the way it is.

Yet, we talk about recruitment and retention, the Graduate Recruitment Program. Isn't there a terrible inconsistency here that, when we it comes to - we are looking for the very best people and yet we are turning off our newest, our brightest, the young people who are hired on and laid off the same day, or given a layoff notice in essence the same day they are hired? I know that your mandate is not in that area so we will go to the minister and say to the minister that there is a terrible inconsistency here, and a fundamental injustice to some of our very brightest and youngest people.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the member opposite for his question. There will always be a need for temporary employees to fit in on shift situations and vacations and whatever. There will always be a need for temporary employees. I think what you have seen over the past ten years, not only with our Province but right across the country, has been a time of restraint. Of course, restraint and fiscal limitations force you to do the things that can make government work and the Province work, but I think if you look back to some of the measures that this government has instituted over the past few years to recruit and retain.... The instance here in the public service was mentioned today with the fifteen new recruits, but if you look over our health care sector and you remember we have injected $14 million over the past twelve months, and that would be for the hiring of new nurses and also for resource people attached to the health care to assist nurses and so on, not only have we done that but just recently we have instituted a program to entice new nursing graduates.

These are things that, as our economy improves, we will be further investing more money into, the hiring of new public servants throughout the system. I think over the past four years, when you consider that this government came to office with a $350 million deficit and we have managed to balance our books ever since, that we have taken great strides to address the very problems you have announced; but we can improve, there is a lot of room to improve, and we hope to do more things in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. H. HODDER: Of course, you have to admit that the highest deficit we had in the last ten years was during the Clyde Wells' Administration, which happened to be a Liberal Administration in the first years.

I just wanted to go back to these temporary employees, because that is the line of questioning. In essence, what we did with nursing - we waited until there was a crisis develop, until we had turned off every single part-time nurse, until they were so desperate, so fed up, that they decided they would take their suitcases and move out of the Province altogether.

In social work, we have the same kind of think happening. What steps are you taking to make sure that we don' turn off.... While we have this Graduate Recruitment Program that sounds so wonderful - and it is, and that is to a certain extent a positive story - there are so many more negative stories out there whereby we have so many of our young people who have been in the public service now for five, six, eight and ten years who still don't have permanent jobs, who can't get a mortgage, who can't get a loan for a car and all of these things. What steps are you taking, Minister, to try to give these young people some kind of permanency within the civil service? Obviously, your turnover is going to be great in the next few years. The older people are retiring. How long do you have to wait before you can go to the bank and say: I have a permanent job and now I can get a mortgage.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think what we have recognized right throughout our public sector is that we do have an aging workforce. In fact, in our public service the average age is forty-three years. I think you are finding that also in the teaching profession and the nursing profession, but what I will say to you is that since this government came to power in 1996 we have brought a great deal of stability to our public servants. They don't have to worry about that pink slip coming out in December to balance the budget. I think if you speak to most of our public servants, that has been a great measure of security for those people who have been interested in investing in homes, in big ticket items and so on.

We have taken great strides to invest in our public servants. In fact just recently, in February, we announced a reclassification review for our nurses, our social workers, our LPNs, and also we have announced a new classification system for our whole public sector workforce. That is in the early stages now. We are trying to actually go out and find the right system. Many of the inadequacies that you are indicating will be brought to the attention of us, of government, during the actual implementation of the new classification system. What you also have to remember is, coming out of ten years of fiscal restraint and having to deal with an enormous deficit and an enormous public debt, that it takes time to bring around these changes. I believe, if you look at all the initiatives that this government has brought forward, you will agree that we are definitely heading in the right direction.

Thank you.

MR. H. HODDER: Of course, I should point out that the wrong direction was under Clyde Wells when, in December, we sat around here and there were literally hundreds of people who were given five minutes - three minutes for the Premier to talk and two minutes for them to talk. Then they say: Thank you very much and away you go.

Yes, you have made some changes but these were changes created by your previous Liberal Administration. Thank God we don't do that any more, a week before Christmas.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I think what I might add at this time is that it is very difficult to make comments on previous governments because I am sure governments of both stripes had the same problems, and it was how they addressed them. This is a new government and we are dealing with the issues of the day and trying to make improvements for the citizens of this Province.

In conclusion, if there are no further questions, I want to say that I value deeply - and this government values deeply - the work of the public servants of this Province. I thank the Chairman and CEO and the Commissioner, because I am amazed at the work that the public servants in this Province do. Coming from the private sector myself, and coming into government just four years ago, it never ceases to amaze me the valuable work that the public servants in this Province do for the people of this Province. I am very grateful - and this government is - for the important role they play. Whatever we can do to enhance their career paths and make life more interesting and better in their workforce, we will try to do within our fiscal ability.

Thank you.

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if it is appropriate, is it, a final word from me?

CHAIR: Sure.

Mr. Faour.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just a couple of comments, because I appreciate the comments of members of the Committee on a number of areas. I want to assure the Committee that the Public Service Commission is striving to do the best it can. Mr. Andersen's comment about concerns about whether the processes we have in place get the best person are the kinds of things we need to hear. We make no pretense that we have a perfect system in place, but we are trying to improve it as we go. Certainly, Sir, if you have any specific comments for us we would really appreciate hearing them because this year I do intend to look at the processes and standards that we impose on departments for the recruitment process, to see whether they are serving our needs. The processes we are using now are many years old and while they are honest processes, they are good processes; we are not sure in every case whether we get the result we need.

The other comment in terms of how we ensure the process works, we are relying significantly on our audit process and on complaints of individuals. Again, we are learning as we go. The last two or three years there has been a steep learning curve for us as well as departments in terms of ensuring high standards in the recruitment process. Again, we are accepting advice wherever we can on how to improve it.

We know the Auditor General has been doing an audit of our audit in the past few months and we are very anxious to hear her comments in next year's report about the recruitment process. My guess is that when we sit here this time next year the Auditor General's report may be a focus for some of the discussion, but we are hoping she will make some constructive comments about the way we are doing things so that we can continue to do it better.

One of the things we have been encouraged at is that departments are treating the delegated authorities with respect and they are, by and large, doing a good job. We will be able to get a better handle on it when our audit report is finished, but what we need to ensure is that there is confidence in that process as we go into the future. I think there have been questions raised both here and in the public service generally about: How are these delegated authorities going to do? Are they going to perform with the same integrity that I believe the Commission performed that function before delegation?

We think it can be. We also think there will be an added benefit with the delegated agreements, and that is more efficiency. We do think that departments with a good process can handle their own recruitment more efficiently and more effectively - because they know their business better than we do - than if the Public Service Commission does it centrally. We do not believe that central control of these processes is always the best way to go, although I do believe that good standards and good processes mandated from the centre can be very helpful.

As Chair, I would also like to thank the members for their positive comments. We feel we are doing a good job. We hope we will continue to provide effective service to the public service generally. We are very cognizant of the fact that the only reason we are here is to ensure that we have a public service that performs for elected officials of the Legislature and of the government and for the citizens of the Province. That is very much within our vision, that our purpose is to try to ensure that the public service continues to keep elected people in mind and the people of the Province in mind in terms of the people we serve.

Thank you very much for this opportunity. I appreciate the comments you have made.

CHAIR: Do you have any questions?

MR. WISEMAN: Mr. Chairman, just one quick comment for the record, actually. My colleague for Waterford Valley had alluded to the fact that the deficit - for the record, when the government changed in 1989 we had a deficit on current accounts of $360 million. It was inherited from the previous government, so you can imagine the adjustments that had to be made to try and balance the accounts of this Province on current accounts.

If my memory serves me correctly, and I think the Public Service Commission probably knows better than I do, a couple of years ago I think we converted a lot of temporaries to full time. So, in essence, what we have done is, we should have less temporaries now in terms of time of service as a temporary individual than we have had in many years.

I am just making that comment for the record, Mr. Chairman, so that 100 years from now when they read the record they will know - if they ever read it - that all is not what is said to be.

Thank you.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01., carried.

On motion, Public Service Commission, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Before we go, we just want to adopt the minutes of the meeting of March 27.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, Mr. Faour and Ms. Devine. Thank you very much for your candid conversation.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.