The Committee met at approximately 4:30 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Ms Yvonne Jones, MHA Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair substitutes for Mr. Tom Lush, MHA Terra Nova.

CHAIR (Joyce): Order, please!

I would like to call the meeting to order.

Thank you very much, minister, and your staff for your availability today. I would just like for everybody to introduce themselves so it will be on record who is here. We will start with Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA Torngat Mountains.

MR. SHELLEY: Paul Shelley, MHA Baie Verte.

MR. H. HODDER: Harvey Hodder, MHA Waterford Valley.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, MHA Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair. I am filling in for Tom Lush this evening.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA Topsail.

CHAIR: Eddie Joyce, MHA Bay of Islands.

MR. McLEAN: I'm Ernie McLean, Minister of Government Services and lands. I will let the officials introduce themselves so that you get a better idea of who they are.

MS KNIGHT: Barbara Knight. I'm the Deputy Minister.

MR. PARROTT: Bill Parrott, ADM, Lands.

MR. McCARTHY: Phil McCarthy, ADM, Government Services.

MR. CURTIS: Ken Curtis, Manager of Budgeting.

CHAIR: Before we proceed, does everybody have the minutes of April 4, 2000?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I will ask the minister to have his opening remarks and we will get to the questions.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Committee members. I just want to make a few opening remarks before we get into the actual questioning of the Estimates.

We have one other assistant deputy minister who is unable to be here because he is out of town, and that is Winston Morris, the ADM of Commercial and Corporate Affairs, but the deputy will certainly be able to handle any of the questions.

Perhaps I should just briefly go through what the department is. It is made up of three branches: Lands, Commercial and Corporate Affairs and Government Services. Government Services is probably the most visible because they are the service centres. Of course we are responsible for a wide range of services and interaction with the public, although we are not a very public department when it comes to issuing grants and that sort of stuff.

We have five regional offices and we are about 500 staff in the department. Our department's mission is to provide accessible and quality services to protect the public interest. We do this by regulating business practices, financial industries, public safety and highway safety. We enforce environmental health legislation, we manage provincial registries and we manage the Crown lands resource. In line with this, Government Services and Lands works in partnership with many other government departments. We administer a lot of services on the legislation based in other departments so we are a very service oriented department. We are always interested in providing efficient and cost-effective services on behalf of government.

I would like to mention just a few of the new initiatives that you probably heard about in the Budget and in the Speech from the Throne. One of them is an online motor vehicle registration renewal process. It was announced in the Throne Speech and the Budget Speech that we will immediately begin work on a new information technology project to enable vehicle owners to renew their registrations over the Internet. Now this is not drivers' licenses, this is registrations for vehicles. Once this project is completed, the owners can renew their registrations and pay for online service using the Internet. Previous to this, and presently, you have to either go to a bank or go to one of the service centres. The Highway Traffic Act requires all motor vehicle owners to register the vehicle on an annual basis at the Motor Registration division, at a bank, or you can do it through the mail. This new service will provide another option for that service. We hope to have this in place later in the year.

In order to develop this new option, enhancements to our computer system are required. These enhancements will cost about $184,000, so as you move through this you may see a figure in there of $184,000. In addition, funding has been allocated for Treasury Board to provide for secure credit card transactions over the Internet. This work by Treasury Board is required before the new motor vehicle online initiative can become operational.

Because there is a new highway in Labrador, we have also looked at a highway enforcement officer's position in Labrador. That was another initiative announced in the Budget. What we are doing this year is we are providing one new enforcement officer. It will be a full-time position stationed in Labrador. The responsibilities will be basically on the Trans-Labrador Highway and the local highways that pertain to that. Not very many local highways, very few, but there are a couple. With the highway improvements, there is a lot more traffic and heavy traffic on the highways so there is a great need for that. Prior to the creation of this position we only provided enforcement on a part-time basis. It was basically a shared position with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. This new position will be completely under our shop and it will provide year-round enforcement of regulations: with the legal weights on the roads, truck inspections, and transportation of dangerous goods which is increasingly developing on that highway because of the upgrades.

In the information technology side, over the past year the department has taken a number of major initiatives to develop a new computerized application management tracking and licensing system as well. The new system is being developed for vital stats - which is birth, death, marriage certificates and those sorts of things; and the government service centres and our lotteries licensing operations - and will allow us to reduce paperwork. Presently, you have to do all of this on a paper track. We hope to have this in place so that it will provide a much more effective and efficient service and allow us much quicker response times for customers who are enquiring about these sorts of things, especially lottery licenses and the sort.

The old vital statistics computer system wasn't Y2K compliant either so that added another problem to our system. A new application management system has now been introduced. We are in the process of transferring a lot of this over.

For the service centres, the focus was to build a system that would enable an integration of approval and inspection processes, because they almost go hand in hand. In this fiscal year the focus will be on continued development and a rollout of this to all of our regions. What we are trying to do is not just focus here in St. John's but focus it right across the Province to all the regions that we have.

In our Lands branch we continue to develop land use policies to facilitate a coordinated approach to land use. The Lands branch has also been building a digital foundation of base maps for the geomatics. We have been doing that, basically, for the past ten years. It has been building spatially integrated thermatic layers for the geographic information system. I will have to ask Bill to elaborate on that because I can't even say it.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) repeat that?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Thanks, Mr. Chairman, you are overruled again.

In the last year, the Crown titles layer has been converted from paper copy to digital format. What I am being told is that these are - I would advise any of you, if you want to have a look at this system, perhaps you should go over to the Howley Building. I think that is where it is located, in the Howley Building, and have a look at the system. You can get a good idea of the improvements that we are trying to make in terms of the mapping that we have and that we produce for the Province.

The branch continues to look at ways it can use new information and IT technologies to improve internal operations, which in turn will result in better client service, but we would have to do it ourselves first so we know what we are doing when we put it our to the clients.

This year we have funds approved to replace the current out-of-date computer systems and the new application management tracking system for Crown Lands applications and titles registries, so we are getting funds slowly to transfer all of these systems over to the computers.

On Web site development, government is placing an increasing focus on development of government's website and this will be revamped. In keeping with the overall objectives, we have received $90,000 for this funding year for two computer positions to develop a departmental Web site. That is very much needed because we are a very service oriented department.

The Internet and e-commerce technology hold tremendous possibilities for the department in the delivery of many of its programs, and initially the Web site will contain information on all these services the department provides, forms which can be downloaded for use and a listing of various fees, so we are not only getting into the information; it is also going to contain the vital forms, the forms that we need that can be used on that system.

The next phase, somewhere in the future, will be to provide these services on-line, so that businesses and individuals can apply and pay for licenses and services over the Internet as well. We are working towards all of that stuff.

The department will continue to provide personal counter services for those who prefer to pay with that type of services. Some people still like to go to the counter and talk to somebody rather than talk to a machine. Counter services will continue to be available for business that cannot be conducted over the Internet as well.

The department is always exploring possibilities for partnership arrangements to develop these systems, as they are very costly. It will cost the government a lot of money to transfer these systems. In just recent achievements, I guess, we have put in the Personal Property Security Act. The PPSA, as we call it, went on-line in November. From the responses we have had, it has been greatly accepted and a greatly improved way to provide the service that mostly financial institutions and lending companies and those sorts of people use. The public use it very minimally, but these institutions have found it a great expansion of the service that we were able to offer only on paper before. This system was put in place at no upfront cost to the government. It is a public-private partnership between Unysis Canada, XWave Solutions and the government, and they took the upfront costs. Private partners paid for the implementation costs of the system, and the revenues are being shared among the three parties.

In strategic planning, the department has recently completed a strategic planning process which certainly helps our department because of the varied numbers of services and the kinds of services that we provide, less involved extensive consultation with our government partners, employees and other client groups, too, because we do have a lot of interaction and interplay with other client groups.

We are still facing a number of very significant issues in the future. These include changing the philosophy of the public service, service accessibility, decentralizing all the decision-making and, of course, the effective regulation and protection and the optimal use of land resources. Those are all challenges that we have.

Nationally and internationally, governments are changing the way they do business and the programs and services delivered by government must be responsive to and address clients' needs. That is what our department is all about.

The public expect our services to be accessible, effective and consistently delivered. We have had a problem with that in the past. That is a challenge we are taking on, and we are moving in that direction in a fairly quick way. Of course, they want to have faster decision-making at the local level, especially when it comes to lands and land disbursement.

Technology offers many opportunities in this area, such as on-line vehicle renewals, digital mapping, and that sort. Our strategic plan emphasizes client-centered service delivery, service quality, accountability for performance, partnerships and collaboration, and regional service delivery.

In decentralized decision-making, you may think is not a very big issue but it is. We need to get our decision making out to the parts of the Province where it impacts the most. That is one of our goals, to see that appropriately dealt with.

Government Services and Lands is committed to moving closer to its vision for the Province. In doing so we aim to be an innovative and effective department. We can be responsive to the changing needs of the clientele in the Province. They always rely on us to be effective and efficient on a wide range of services.

Those are just a few things that we have focused on over the last year. Now I am going to ask the Chairman to get into the nuts and bolts of it and start asking us some questions on the Estimates.

Thank you, sir.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Wiseman.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Not right now, Mr. Chairman. Customarily we go to the Vice-Chair which, I think, is Mr. Hodder.

CHAIR: Sorry about that. He usually sits there.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Okay, we will change it.

CHAIR: Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much.

Mr. Minister, first of all, thank you for giving us an outline of your department. I am going to make a few comments up front about the department and my perceptions of it. It is not customary for a member of the Opposition to be too flattering to a minister or to the government in these kinds of public forums. However, I want to say that I was pleased, just recently, reading a national magazine in which Newfoundland's bringing together the various service units was recognized, and how that we have tended to be bringing together our services to people here under the Government Services and Lands division. I thought that was nicely noted because you will remember some debate we had in this House about decentralization, taking the services out to people, a one-stop shopping kind of approach to government services. While that has caused some frustrations for some people and there has been some degree of ‘turfism' protection that occurs when these things happen, I think it has gone fairly well. It hasn't gone without its hassles, but I think the focus and philosophy are in the right direction; while there will be, from time to time, things happen that will cause all kinds of frustrations.

The other part of it I wanted to note is a personal note to you noting your accessibility. For me and for other members of this House -

MR. SHELLEY: Not me.

MR. H. HODDER: - with the exception of the Member for Baie Verte, who will speak for himself, you tend to be pretty accessible. I think that is noted because it is that kind of orientation that is needed to make this department work well.

MR. McLEAN: If I could just respond to that, Harvey. I think that is the way the department should be, because it is a very client oriented department. We have to be up front so I think it should start from the top.

MR. H. HODDER: I just wanted to mention that. Already my colleague here is wondering what has happened to me, that it must be late in the afternoon at 4:54, or I am hungry or whatever.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I am tempted to call a doctor.

MR. H. HODDER: The Member for Topsail is going to call a doctor, I'm being so complimentary here.

Anyway, Mr. Minister, I want to mention a couple of things. Over on page 44, under 2.1.02, Firearms and Securities Services, last year we didn't put anything into the Budget, but I note there was a revenue of $650,300. I wanted you to give a little comment on that as to how that particular figure - since it wasn't provided for last year and is not provided for this year. That is a federal thing, but I wanted you to explain what happened here for us to end up with $650,300.

MR. McLEAN: In response to the Firearms and Securities it has now been totally transferred to the federal government. They have taken it completely out of our hands. This figure you see here was some late revenue that came in as adjustments made by the federal government to the final months of our service. At this point it is all under the federal government. The whole division went under the federal government.

MR. H. HODDER: Did any staff transfer with that?

MR. McLEAN: How many?

WITNESS: Six (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: I think it was six. Buck Orser was the director and everybody else went with him. I think there might have been one retired or something like that. The whole staff went with him, yes.

MR. H. HODDER: Under the Residential Tenancies Act, the administration of that, could you give us some idea as to the number of complaints that you would get in the run of a year and where they would be coming from? We get complaints from time to time of course, as MHAs, as you know. Is the number of complaints and interventions you have to make, the administration of this, tending to decrease in recent years? What is the experience there?

MR. McLEAN: Totally to the contrary. When we, I guess two years ago, rolled up the appeal boards and went to the referee system, what we found is over and above what we even anticipated. The numbers have dramatically increased for the hearings because of, I think, mostly the fact that the hearings can be done on a more regular basis. You pay a fee and you go in and you have your hearing. Prior to that, when the boards were in place, you had to wait until you had so many hearings and then you had to have a board meeting. You had to get your board together, and it was fairly time consuming. I think there were probably some other impacts in that area as well. I'm not fully up on that. I don't know if Barb can elaborate on that.

MS KNIGHT: Yes, Mr. Hodder. Since the department has taken over hearing the disputes between landlords and tenants, the numbers of disputes have increased fourfold. We are up to an average of 450 a year. Part of the reason for that is there is basically no cost to landlords or tenants to have their appeals heard whereas under the other system it was a fairly expensive process. So yes, the number of appeals that we are hearing has increased significantly. The service that is provided is much more accessible and it is much less costly to both tenants and landlords.

MR. H. HODDER: What is the approximate time frame - I know it depends on the case to a certain extent - from the time that there is a complaint from in particular the tenants. Because the tenants are the ones who very often need decisions made fairly quickly. What is the approximate time frame?

MS KNIGHT: It does vary on the basis of the type of the appeal. I think the average is probably in the area of two to three months by the time the application comes in and people have an opportunity to go through mediation before they get into a more quasi-judicial process, and then the decision is rendered. We have to make the decision and write it up and then provide it to the landlord and tenant. Where there is any kind of an emergency situation, that is dealt with on a much more expeditious basis. Cases like that where there is a problem, where the landlord either has to get a tenant out quickly because of damage or whatever, or likewise a problem with a tenant, that is dealt with within a couple of weeks or it can be done within days if there is an urgent situation.

MR. H. HODDER: You mentioned the vehicle registration and the changes there. Again I note this is probably on - I don't know whether it is the first in Canada where we are doing it this way, but it is certainly among the first in the country. This report I was reading again noted some of these initiatives. Is that fully operational now or is it in the process of implementation? That is the initiative you mentioned relative to the new computer system and license and registration processing.

MS KNIGHT: The new system in MRD whereby vehicle renewals will be done online, that is a new initiative. Hopefully it will be completed before the end of the fiscal year. The first requirement is that Treasury Board has to work out issues of terms of security and people being able to pay through e-commerce and online. Then it requires a new computer system be put into our Motor Vehicle Registration Division. The intent is that that would all be done before the end of this fiscal year. We are one of the first provinces which will be up and running in this way. I believe Alberta has a pilot system in process at the moment and other provinces are working towards it, but we are certainly at the forefront in moving ahead on putting our vehicle re-registrations online.

MR. H. HODDER: Yes, I noted that, of course, as I said, in the background information that I was reading some time ago on the way services get delivered in various parts of the country. There was note made of this particular initiative and others within the same department. I am sure that the minister will be telling the Premier when he comes back all the positive comments I've made and how well he is running his department and all that kind of thing. Don't ask for a transfer, I say.

I don't think you mentioned it, but the National Safety Code - this is with commercial trucking to improve highway safety.

WITNESS: Where is that?

MR. H. HODDER: That is on page 48. We had some real concerns about the trucking industry and the conditions of the tires. There have been some instances in Ontario where, for example, on the 401, as you know, tires came off vehicles and a mother and her daughter, I think it was, were killed. We have also heard some complaints in this Province. I want you to comment on the level of cooperation between the commercial trucking industry and your department, and the manner in which we are doing our best to make sure that our highways are safe, particularly when we know that they both must share the same highway. When it comes to size and consequences, if there is a mistake there is not much chance any of us have if we don't all obey the rules properly. I want you to comment on that if you could, Mr. Minister.

MR. McLEAN: Actually, we have a whole division of our Motor Vehicle Registration branch that deals with all the national safety issues, actually, when it comes to trucking and busing. We have had very good cooperation with the motor carriers and also with the bus operators in terms of the safety of the vehicles that we are taxed with to ensure that vehicles are as safe as they can be on the highway. There are certain low limits that they have to meet before they can have the vehicles on the highway.

We have good cooperation. Every time we do checkpoints the whole operation is done in a very cooperative way. The drivers cooperate. The operators and the owners cooperate relatively well in our Province. I think that is why we have not seen the kinds of things happening here as we have seen in Ontario. Of course, the traffic is not as extensive here either, but there is always good cooperation between the organizations when we are dealing with national safety issues and national transportation safety initiatives that we have come before us. We have never, to my knowledge, had any problems with the industry itself. They are always very cooperative.

MR. H. HODDER: Do you do any statistical analysis of the percentage of vehicles that are inspected? For example, do you find that of those that are stopped and inspected, are we up to 97 per cent, 90 per cent? Do you have any idea as to what our percentage of, shall we say, acceptability or passing would be?

MR. McLEAN: I will let Barb answer that because she is much closer to the actual inspections, but let me tell you, twice now I was out and hauled on a pair of coveralls and went under the trucks on certain days when the inspections were being done. I think if you want to talk about percentages, a lot of the vehicles - I guess the majority of vehicles that we have on the highways here meet the inspections, and a lot of the infractions that we do find are very minimal. Without hesitation, these guys go and get the work done. There are very few in this Province that try and sneak away to do underhanded sort of stuff. They are very cooperative, but there may be other statistical things that Barb can certainly -

MS KNIGHT: I do not have the information with me, Mr. Hodder, but I think we could get you some information sort of in general terms of the types of infractions. As the minister said, I think a lot of them would be fairly minor. Where they are significant and if they are of a danger to public safety, then the trucks would be pulled off the road and they would have to be corrected before they were allowed to travel back on the road.

I do not have those figures but, if you like, we can see what we can get for you. It is not a big problem. It is not a problem that is brought to my attention, that we have a lot of truckers out there who are not abiding by the standards.

MR. H. HODDER: If you could, you could just forward them to the minister and he could pass them over to me some day in the House.

On the vital stats registry, again that is an area when I have some interest, being a bit of a genealogist. I am wondering, when the new system comes on stream, if there can be some way in which we can have more ready access to some of the data without having to pay $10 for a search, or whatever it is. Those of us who are in the business of - not business because I don't do this kind of searching for anything other than personal interest or on behalf of persons who want that done, and I never charge for this kind of thing, but making some of the vital stats information more readily available to bona fide researchers. I know that you go down to the archives and all the material is down there but it always seems to be a difficulty, particularly when you are not quite sure which Thomas Hodder you are looking for, and that kind of thing. Is there some way in which we could facilitate that?

MR. McLEAN: You should stick a number on your back.

MR. H. HODDER: I beg your pardon?

MR. McLEAN: You should stick a number on your back so that you know which one it is.

Harvey, just to respond to that briefly, when we took vital stats over from the Department of Health it wasn't exactly a free flow of information. The division - I guess the way it was done, there were immense amounts of paper and what we tried to do is to integrate that into our government service centres. We have had a few problems along the way in backlogs and things like that building up. Then, of course, we ran into the fact that the computer program was not Y2K compliant so that set us back again. We have taken a number of initiatives now to try and speed that program up so that we can computerize the whole vital stats program and then the information will certainly be much more readily available.

As far as searches and that go for the fees, I could not even tell you what the fees are. Maybe the deputy or - we do not have - are you responsible for vital stats, Phil?

MS KNIGHT: Just one comment. In terms of genealogical research, our people will do that - and they do it at no cost - but it is only a service that we provide when we have the time to do it. At the moment, as the minister said, most of the staff's time is taken up with people who need birth certificates or marriage certificates, that type of thing, and that obviously is the priority.

One of the things that we looked at, and one of the things I have noted in other provinces, is that genealogical research is a service that is provided through vital stats but it is a service that is provided at a cost. If people want the service then they pay for it, as with a lot of other government services. It is not one right now that we can sort of openly advertise and say that is available just because we are not in a position to do that at the moment. Once we get this new computer system up and running in a better fashion, we are going to be looking at what other services like that we could provide. I must say, because it is a cost to government to do it, it might be one that we would look at as providing a service that people could purchase from us if they wanted that.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Wiseman.

MR. WISEMAN: Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, I feel compelled to congratulate the minister and the staff for the superb job they were doing. After listening to my colleague who sits in Opposition heap so much praise on you, I would be remiss if I did not do it. I am certainly doing it with quite a bit of sincerity.

I had the pleasure of working with you ADM, actually, for some four years in my former life. I can say that your department has been very efficient, always been available. Mr. Parrott and I go back quite a ways, actually. I didn't tell you that, Minister, because you might think that I may have connections in your department and I would never want you to think that.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. WISEMAN: Yes, Mr. Parrott, is a very, very competent individual. I say that with some knowledge, having worked with him some four-and-a-half years. I have never had a problem with your department that could not be resolved. That is more than I can say, I guess, for a number of other problems that I have had. I just want to go on the record as saying that you and your staff are doing a superb job and keep it up.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't have any questions for the minister and his staff this evening, but I do want to make a couple of comments. One, I want to commend the minister for the role that he is taking in Labrador in terms of Crown lands and the whole Government Services Centre department up there. They have been very active in terms of looking at the land and how it is going to be impacted with the Trans-Labrador Highway through Labrador. I have had the opportunity to meet with some of the officials in the minister's department when I have been up there to discuss that.

The only other comment that I want to make is that I realize that Government Services and Lands is no small department. There are a number of issues with regarding to zoning and permitting and so on that take place there that have grave concern to the public. I want to commend the officials in your department, Minister, for the job that they do, and they do very well in serving the public of the Province. I also commend you, as minister, for the job that you do.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Jones.

Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will just go specifically to a few estimates and get a little quick overview on them. Page 44, 2.1.03., Residential Tenancies, Salaries. There was an extra salary there, some $56,000. There was a budget for $304,100 but it came to $360,000. Was that a salary or was it two salaries - there was an extra salary there - or was that a big raise?

MR. McLEAN: We transferred a position from trade practices to the licensing division, just an internal transfer. It came out of one of the other divisions. Also, we hired a summer student for that position, to bring our work up to -

MR. SHELLEY: You transferred from what to what?

MR. McLEAN: We transferred a position from the trade practices division, which is another division in our department, to the licensing division.

MR. SHELLEY: Why?

MS KNIGHT: Well, if you recall, I mentioned, when Mr. Hodder asked a question about the number of disputes that we were hearing, it was to try and handle the increase in the number of disputes.

MR. SHELLEY: It makes sense now.

I missed some of Mr. Hodder's comments because I was having a conservation, I will admit. I am going to make sure that this one is covered on page 45, because it is the biggest one in your estimates. I am pretty sure you covered them, but just to reiterate: 2.1.05., Commercial Registrations, under Purchased Services, 06., from the $18,000 budgeted to $379,000 and then, of course, budgeted for the Estimates this year at $1,129,000 million.

MR. McLEAN: I will briefly explain it and then the deputy can get into the more technical details. We adopted the PPSA this year, and we partnered with Unysis Canada and xwave Solutions to get that program up and running, and we had to share part of the cost of that to get it in place. The deputy can step in and take over from there.

MS KNIGHT: As the minister said, this new PPSA - we partnered with xwave and Unysis. This is really an accounting function. The revenues that are collected through this program are shared among the three parties but, because of accounting procedures, the revenues in that section, the fees that we pay to Unysis and xwave, have to be shown as expenditures. The total revenues are shown in current account. So, in effect, the revenues that are here are the fees that Unysis and xwave get from this service.

In effect, for 1999-2000, Unysis were paid fees of $300,000 and xwave $50,000. The total revenues to government, all totaled, were $925,000. In 2000-2001, the net revenue to government is a total of $2.7 million, of which $1,100,000 is fees paid to Unysis and to xwave with government revenues being at $2.7 million.

It is an accounting procedure. Before, revenues for this kind of services just showed up in current account. Now, because of the involvement with these two other parties, they have to show as an expenditure to correspond to the total revenues that are shown elsewhere.

MR. SHELLEY: I understand that, but why was the difference, you said, for $379,000 paid to the two of them - well, $350,000 you said; $300,000 and $50,000.

MS KNIGHT: The rest of that Purchased Services is just the ongoing kind of purchased services for that division. It would include things like - Ken, can you help me there? It is the normal, ongoing costs. There was always, before we introduced the PPSA, a budget in that department of $18,000, so it is a continuation of normal expenditures.

MR. SHELLEY: I can understand that one. My question was: You paid in 1999 about $350,000 to Unysis and xwave, if I heard you right. I think it was $300,000 to xwave and $50,000 to Unysis. Why, in 2000-2001, is it $1,100,000?

MS KNIGHT: We only introduced the program in November.

MR. SHELLEY: Part way through.

MS KNIGHT: So this is for the full year.

MR. SHELLEY: It is quite a bit of money.

MS KNIGHT: It is a good revenue source for government.

MR. SHELLEY: There is no doubt about that.

MR. McLEAN: It is a good service, too, Paul. All of the users have indicated to us that it was long overdue. What they have used since then, they are very pleased with. It has enhanced the service that we provide.

MR. SHELLEY: I can understand that, and I promote and encourage anything when you are talking about technological advances,. You are going to have to keep up.

Driver Examinations And Weigh Scale Operations, 3.1.02., Salaries, from $1,594,500 to $1,763,100. Could you comment on Salaries from $1,594,500 to $1,763,100?

MR. McLEAN: That was for our driver examiner and weigh scale inspector positions. That basically took in some retroactivity, I think.

MS KNIGHT: Under the last collective agreement with the union, there was a commitment to look at reclassifying the driver examiners and weigh scale inspectors, and that was done. As a result of that they did receive a classification upgrade, so the difference between the budget and the revised reflects that. The difference between the revised and the Estimates for this year also reflects the new highway enforcement officer that the minister referred to earlier.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. On that note, minister, I will get you to make a comment. I have had complaints this year about waiting so long for driver examiners to come to my part of the Province. I guess it is similar to other parts. Is this addressing or leaning towards addressing that concern?

MR. McLEAN: We have also had complaints not only from your area but -

MR. SHELLEY: All over, I know.

MR. McLEAN: No, from different areas of the Province where we don't have service centres, where they can't walk into a service centre. That is one of the areas that we are trying to address in terms of time allocation in those areas. We do have some service in those areas now. For example, the driver examiner will spend two days every two weeks down in Marystown, on the Burin Peninsula, or maybe out in the Baie Verte area. What we are looking at, and we always continue to look at, is whether or not we can increase that. If the demand starts to increase we should be looking at increasing that time allocation for those areas until we eventually come to a point where we can offer that service more directly.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, I agree.

3.1.04, National Safety Code. I know Mr. Hodder was talking about this one but I don't know if he went into it specifically. There is quite a jump. I will ask a question on .07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, from $47,100 to $157,100. That was $110,000 jump. Could you tell me what that was? Was it (inaudible)?

MR. McLEAN: The jump was an increase of an additional $89,000 by Transport Canada in support of the National Safety Code Program.

MR. SHELLEY: So that was tied in with that?

MR. McLEAN: I think that was all federal money that we had to show in our expenditures, but it was totally federal input because they are responsible for the National Safety Code Program.

MR. SHELLEY: I'm just going to ask you one more specific -

MR. McLEAN: We administer that.

MR. SHELLEY: - question and that is it for me. In 3.2.01.12, Support Services, Information Technology, there is almost $110,000 from budgeted to revised.

MR. McLEAN: That is for 1999-2000?

MR. SHELLEY: In the budgeted for 1999-2000, yes, it was $548,200.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we put money in there to purchase replacement computers, printers, monitors, software, memory upgrades and things like that for our new programs that we indicated earlier we are bringing through.

MR. SHELLEY: So that is the replacement of some -

MR. McLEAN: Some of the equipment had to be replaced because it could not accept the new program.

MR. SHELLEY: I am going to ask this question which is general to a lot of departments that I have asked before. When you replace this equipment, what is happening to it?

MR. McLEAN: In some cases I have taken it and provided it to, whether I am supposed to or not, organizations that are on a shoestring.

MR. SHELLEY: That need it. I have no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I asked that question for a very practical reason, because I -

MR. McLEAN: I have done it. I don't know if I had permission to do it or not but I have done it in some cases.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, I mean, those ones are justifiable. The point I was going to make is that I would do the same as any other constituent. Especially with disabled people in homes and so on.

MR. McLEAN: Rather than throw it in a corner of a storage room somewhere I have provided it to different organizations.

MR. SHELLEY: Exactly, because I've seen it. As a matter of fact, I will go as far as to say I encourage it. When you see equipment like that - I have seen it around this building piled up in a corner when I know there is a quadriplegic in my district who could use it at home. For a suggestion, why isn't an inventory done of all that stuff in this building and use it for organizations or (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Maybe that is an idea, you know.

MR. SHELLEY: Sure it is.

MR. McLEAN: I have no problem with that.

MR. SHELLEY: I have seen it. We all see it.

MR. McLEAN: I think it is going out there and being used by these organizations either as a tool - the people they represent can do a bit of training with the computers - or they use it for their own programming.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, and at least it is controlled then and monitored and checked. If a member could come with an organization that needs some computers that we might think are outdated but certainly could be used, then it is something to consider. That is why I got onto that question, actually, just to make that comment. I support the -

MR. McLEAN: I don't know. I may get in trouble for it but I did it anyway.

MR. SHELLEY: I may as well suggest it.

That is all I had, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, minister.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am glad to see the Member for Waterford Valley give some praise. I am glad to see that the Member for Baie Verte is on side and complimenting the minister. That is being said and done because the minister is a good Labrador man.

The things that do come up from time to time I bring to the attention of the minister and the people in his department. I compliment the minister on his role as the Minister of Government Services and Lands and the minister for Labrador. I don't have anything particular at this time so I do believe we are willing to call the heads.

MR. McLEAN: If I could just make a comment? On Wally's issue, I think one of the issues that crops up each year is the registration of vehicles on the Coast. We are still dealing with that. We are dealing with Treasury Board on that, trying to reach some reasonable conclusion.

If I could just make a comment before you close it off or whatever?

CHAIR: We are not closing yet.

MR. McLEAN: This department has responsibility for, I think, eighty-eight or eighty-nine pieces of legislation. It is a very cumbersome department when it comes to that. What we have focused on a lot - you have probably seen in the House - is trying to pull all of that legislation up to a reasonable way that we do business today. It has been a long process because once you are doing legislation you have to go through it, but there was a great need to improve a lot of that legislation and to, in some places, roll it into other legislation. Of course, we are still doing it.

That is one of the areas where it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort on the part of the department, but we are moving in that direction. We are making the legislation reasonable so that we can get out there and do a better service. I don't know, but most other departments are responsible for a dozen pieces of legislation and things like that, but we just have a lot of it because of the way it was rolled in.

CHAIR: Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: I have just a couple of other things. What I wanted to ask about is the graduated licensing program, how that is going, what the response has been, and what the experience has been now that it is a fact of life, you might say.

MR. McLEAN: The response has been very positive to that particular program. We won't see anything statistical, basically, for two to three years because you have to roll it in concert with something else. What was it like before? We would have to get two or three years in so that we can understand how effective it is and the impact it is having. In two to three years we will be able to show some statistics that will, I think, indicate that the program is very effective and is providing a much more safe driving component to our drivers on the highway.

I guess, the one area that there was a little bit of complaining about to me, personally, was that this should only apply to seventeen and eighteen year olds. If you are fifty years old and you are only getting your license for the first time you shouldn't have to go through this. I said: It is designed for the new driver. Whether you are one hundred years old or sixteen years old you should go through that program, because it makes you a more competent driver when you reach the end of that program and you are on the highway. It is all to do with highway safety.

MR. H. HODDER: Some of my closer friends are members of the medical profession. They tell me of their frustration sometimes in trying to have to accept the responsibility that comes to them in having to determine whether or not a person is indeed functionally capable. They tell me that the guidelines are not clearly defined, that it is always a perception - sometimes you have an obvious case - then they find it very frustrating. One of them said to me just recently that if there is a graduated program for entry to get your license, then have we thought of something along the way, for example, that people who are over a certain age - for example, just the other day I was told of a lady who was eighty-two years old, was given her license for five more years and was told that she doesn't have to go back for any other further checks for a five year period.

She was very excited about that. Firstly, she thought it was an endorsement of her good health, and secondly, the fact is that she does not have to go and have her license re-checked. She gets a new picture on it and that kind of thing, and it says that she can go until she is nearly eighty-eight. I am wondering if we are trying to address this issue. First, the medical profession has concerns, and second, I think we have to look at the incidence of older people driving. Driving is a privilege. I'm not advocating that once you get seventy-five or eighty that you lose your license, but I am saying that the people who are making representations to me are mostly, I should say, people in the medical business, but also family members.

The hardest thing you can do is to manipulate your father losing his license. I have had to do that. Did I manipulate it? Yes I did. Was it the right thing to do? Yes it was. Was he angry with us? Yes he was, but he was eighty-three years old and my perception was that he should not drive. I did not want my father to die - and he is passed on now - knowing that he had, because of his poor driving, done something that he would live with the rest of his life. I am asking: what are we doing about that part of the licensing system?

MR. McLEAN: I will just make a quick comment because they know a lot more about the particular details, but I would suggest to your colleagues that if they have concerns like that I would appreciate if they would identify them for me.

MR. H. HODDER: Yes, okay.

MR. McLEAN: At any point in time along the way when they feel they should be doing that. Because those are the issues and the kinds of things that we have to ensure that we are dealing with, because we are responsible for public safety and that means safety on the highway. If people should not be driving, then we need to have all of the material and information we can to ensure that these people, if they are on the highway, through medical tests and that sort of things, have the ability to drive. I think there are requirements under the driver's license that they would require medicals and clearances from doctors and that sort of thing for license preservation, I think, isn't it, Barb?

MS KNIGHT: I think when you reach seventy-five, if I am correct, you are required to have a vision test.

MR. H. HODDER: Yes.

MS KNIGHT: But generally, no, it is up to the doctor to state if he has concerns about somebody being fit to drive. That information is then given to motor vehicles, and we would either take the licence or, if there is a concerned expressed, we would asked that person to be tested. They would come in and be tested. There is a person at the Miller Center who will interview older people and do an assessment of them from their perspective of whether they should be driving.

There are no absolute standards, and there are nowhere in the country. It would be very difficult, I think, to have a standard, other than probably a general age standard, and I think you would probably get into questions with the Charter there, if you said at seventy-five you were no longer able to drive or you had to come in for a licence renewal. It is becoming a much bigger problem with our aging population, but it is very difficult to come up with standards. We are running into a lot of problems now in motor vehicles because of a recent court case out of B.C. about vision testing. It has resulted in a lot of people whom we have said have not met a standard, the court decision is such that we have to go back and people have the right to have individual tests done. What they are basically saying is that there really is no standard and each case has to be done on an individual basis, which is causing a lot of concerns for our people because it is meaning a lot more individual testing has to be done.

Generally it is a problem, certainly. I have gone through the same thing you mentioned in terms of older people, and having to advise motor vehicles that they should not be driving. It is a very difficult situation. If your licence is removed, you can appeal it and then you can come in and have a test done by qualified people. We are developing more and more skills in terms of what sorts of things you need to look for when you are re-testing somebody.

We just recently had a seminar with all our driver examiners and we had doctors and others in, teaching these people what they now need to look for in terms of vision requirements; or, if you have had a stroke, what are the sorts of things they need to look for, where people's capacities are likely to be affected. Other than that, that is basically what we are doing. I don't think you will ever be able to find that there is one standard. I think more and more we are going to have to get into individual testing.

MR. McLEAN: Nobody over fifty will (inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: The minister suggested that anybody over fifty, was it?

MR. McLEAN: We will get Yvonne to give us a ride home.

MR. H. HODDER: In that case, I will have to be tested. I admit to being over fifty.

Mr. Chairman, those are all the questions I have.

CHAIR: Are there any other questions?

WITNESS: No, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Before we adjourn, I would just like to have a few remarks about Government Services and Lands. Back when the department was in the concept and being created, it was the collection of other departments brought together to try to create Government Services and Lands, a one-stop shop. Six, Minister?

I can tell you from my experiences, and I am sure that no one deals with Government Services and Land more than me, nor have they over the years, that the department is working. It is beginning to jell and it is becoming the one-stop centre that it was created to be. Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff for all the assistance that I received over the years from the department. I know I clamor a lot and I complain a lot, but I am appreciative of the work that it done.

Thank you very much.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.1.05. carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.