The Committee met a 5:15 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Joyce): Order, please!

Present at this meeting we have Mr. Young, Mr. Osborne, Mr. French, Ms Jones, Mr. Mercer, Mr. Sweeney, and myself, Eddie Joyce.

We have the minister. Minister, you could introduce your staff or, as they speak, they can introduce themselves.

I will just ask for the subheads so we can get the meeting -

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Minister, do you want to have some opening remarks?

MR. LANGDON: Thank you very much, Eddie.

What I will do is ask all of the officials to introduce themselves and go from there.

I want to thank the Committee for appearing today after being in the House for the full afternoon. I know that supper is not a long way off for many of you. You would like to be able to go there I am sure, rather than coming here, but there is a job for us to do and I want to thank you for doing it. I will talk to you individually after.

For the department, I am not going to do a lot of introduction to it. There are two main parts, I guess: Municipal and Provincial Affairs which is at the building here, in the West Block, and then we have Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, which is a Crown Corporation that I am responsible for as well. They have their own CEO, Mr. Dean, over there. We do have a number of projects, a number of policies, and a number of programs. I won't spell them all out. I will give the opportunity to you guys to ask the questions and so on. Hopefully, we can do that in an expeditious way, and yet, at the same time, be able to address the concerns and questions that you would have.

Les, do you want to start?

MR. DEAN: Leslie Dean, CEO of the Housing Corporation.

MR. SMART: Bob Smart, Deputy Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. CURTIS: Ken Curtis, Manager of Budgeting, Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. MOORE: John Moore, Director of Policy and Planning, Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. WALSH: Jim Walsh, Parliamentary Secretary for Housing to the Minister.

MS MARSHALL: Mary Marshall, Vice President of Housing Operations, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. CONWAY: Jim Conway, Chief Financial Officer at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. ROSE: Baxter Rose, Executive Director, Policy and Planning with Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Director of Communications with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

CHAIR: Good to see you could make it, Mr. Kelly; a bit late but it is good to see you.

Mr. French, would you like to start the questioning?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

With your permission and indulgence, I would like to make a few opening comments. I am the minister's critic. I do know, Minister, that you look after Municipal and Provincial Affairs, so maybe at the end of the - well, I have to say, Mr. Dean can answer this.

I find it very, very frustrating, as the critic for Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and even when I go into my own district, some of the phone calls I get - I have a feeling sometimes, and I am sure most MHAs do, that I am not so sure when I am talking to people at the Housing Corporation if they really understand what I am talking about, you know. When you walk into a house and you sit with the poor soul who has to live in this house and the wind is blowing, the canvas almost takes your head off, and yet somebody will go in and say: Well, I am not so sure he is an emergency. Where does this individual get the right to say if it is an emergency or not? I guess what I am saying is: What is the expertise? I mean, the fact that the canvas only blows up one foot on Wednesday night but Thursday night it might blow up ten, how does this poor devil, at the end of the day, live?

I had an incident in my district a while ago. It was a blocked sewer line and, at the end of the day, between myself and somebody at Housing, whom I will not name, we convinced the municipality to go out with a snake and push out a bit of stuff that had this poor devil's sewer line blocked. Now, you know, somebody might say it is only $45 to go rent the snake to shove out through the end of a line, but it is when you do not have $45. People might think: oh, people, they always have a few bucks here and a few bucks there. There are a lot of people in my area who, when they say they do not have the money, I know in my own heart and soul they haven't got the money. It is useless to call social assistance because social assistance is going to send me off to you fellas and when I get to you fellas, somebody is probably going to say: Oh no, boy, Mr. French, we haven't got money to help this poor individual out.

I can think of other incidents. There is another one I am dealing with now. I will not get into the poor chap's name because I do not have the final report back from you people. I did convince an inspector that they should go out and have a look at this man's property. Now somebody said: Well, he only had an application in for six months or twelve months. To hell with the application! If this poor devil needs something to keep him going and keep him alive, and to make renovations to his home or his property, then I really and truly think that somebody somewhere has to have a heart.

I find sometimes, at the end of the day, I am not left with that feeling, when I talk - now, Bob, that is social assistance, and I call social assistance: Bob, that is not us, boy, that is Housing. At the end of the day, it becomes very frustrating for me as a MHA. I can be very colorful sometimes. If you think Roger Grimes knows a few angelic words, believe you me, so do I, and I am not above, sometimes, expressing them.

It really bothers me sometimes when I call Housing and this is the way - I know of a gentleman who just died in my district, who was living in a house that they rented. They were told a year ago: Within six months to a year, you must move out of this home, it is no longer available for rent. In my district, unfortunately, the accommodation that these people need is not available. So: Mr. Jones, we can move you to St. John's. Mr. and Mrs. Jones never lived in St. John's in their lives. Mr. and Mrs. Jones are lost once they come out of the section in Conception Bay South that they live in.

I always say to people, and I do this a lot when I deal with, I guess you would call it Human Resources, Eddie, but I do it a lot when I talk to, I will refer to them as social assistance. I say to some of these people: Boys, it is time for you to have a so-and-so heart. It is time that you realize that there are people in this world, or on this earth, who are worse or poorer off than we are.

I guess I got the biggest raking down I ever got in my life from a lady on the West Coast of the Province who phoned me because I was the Municipal Affairs critic. I have to say the chap I called at Housing was a very nice man and I spoke to a very nice lady. I would not blame the fellow in Housing if she never got the price of a cup of tea after the way she addressed me, and I know she addressed this fellow. So, there are a lot of times I realize that it is not the fault of the worker. Sometimes a reaction is created by some of these actions towards you. I have people who have phoned me since I have been an MHA, and I would just say: Boy, listen, if you want this conversation to continue, you do one of two things: You either calm down or good-bye. I will hang up. Nobody abuses me. I don't earn enough money to be abused. If somebody wants my help I am all there to help them.

I find sometimes, when I deal with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, I am not so sure if some of the inspectors that we have really have a heart, or if it is Human Resources way of getting rid of me by saying, go to Housing, and then if it is Housing's way to get rid of me by saying that I have to go back to social assistance. Some of these poor devils are suffering and they are suffering in a great way.

I just wonder what you can add. Maybe I should be calling you, maybe I should not be calling the individual worker. Maybe that is where I fooled up. Maybe the next time you just might get a phone call from me. No maybes to it, you will. Believe you me, if I am not happy the next time round you will know that I am not happy the next time round. I don't mind waiting twenty-four hours to have my calls returned, but I am not going to wait three, four and five days. I am not going to do that, and the next time that happens to me you will definitely get a call from me.

MR. DEAN: Mr. Chairman, Leslie Dean, for the record.

Mr. French, I would hope that the several examples that you have highlighted are examples only of the challenges that the corporation is facing. We deal with a large clientele. These individuals, as you correctly point out, are in very, very difficult circumstances.

I have been with the corporation for just two months and to be quite honest with you, Mr. French, most of the people that I deal with, and have had the opportunity to deal with, speak very favorably indeed of the corporation. There are bound to be examples where, for a number of reasons, the corporation cannot respond on a timely basis. But, the reality today is that the corporation's budget, 99 per cent of its budget, is directed towards social housing. There will be challenges. I think the minister will agree with me. We have confidence in our staff. If, in fact, from time to time, there are situations which require, as you suggest, probably a more immediate response, then the corporation and it's staff will try and respond as quickly and as expeditiously as we can.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much.

I will just tell you this - it is an aside, Minister - it is not your department but it is the Department of Human Resources.

I have a chap in my district who was injured in an automobile accident and whose family went out and arranged for this fella to receive chiropractic treatment at no cost to him, but what the poor fella needed was a $5 taxi fare so that they would be able to pick him up and take him when they were going to do this stuff for nothing, and other treatments that he required. His doctor recommended that he get this. The only way that I could get the $5 for this fella was thanks to Gerald Smith. I had to phone the minister and the minister had to intercede on this young fella's behalf so we could get a lousy $5 so that once or twice a week this young fella could have a taxicab that they could put him into, put his wheelchair in the trunk, and take him down to have this service administered.

Oliver, that drives me crazy. I did not get elected to this business to forget the people who sent me here. That is how I feel sometimes about Housing. The worst agency in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, by the way, is the division that deals with injured workers. You and I have had several conversations when you were in another department and you looked after workers compensation. I have never gone to a meeting - not because of Mr. Gullage, because he is a fine fella - but I have never gone to one of these meetings and come away happy, and I have never gone to one of these meetings and come out when I wasn't so mad I could have bitten nails. So, I am just hoping, Les, that Housing does not become that way because it is a shame. We do have people in this Province, in my district - and every member of this House, on both sides of the House, have people who go through what I go through. I am sure this member does and these two members from time to time go through the same frustration, and I am sure Tom and Wally do.

Anyway, Les, I will thank you for that and do not be surprised some day if I do call you.

MR. DEAN: By all means.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would now like to start. Minister, on page 229, heading 1.1.01., Minister's Office, I just want to go down to 06. which is Purchased Services. We budgeted $3,700 but we spent $29,200 and now this year we are gone back to $3,700 again. Can somebody tell me what that was all about and why?

MR. LANGDON: This increase, Bob, reflects an increase in costs associated with hosting meetings with municipalities, umbrella groups, and increasing media monitoring, communication costs and increased printing requirements. When we host meetings with municipalities and umbrella groups like NLAMA and, I would think, the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Fire Chiefs and Firefighters and so on, these are extra increases that we would have with hosting these meetings.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, if I just might, because I do know in certain parts of my own district there is land which is zoned agricultural. You wouldn't grow a rock on it. You might get enough rocks on it to beat out somebody's window. People want to sell their land and I am just wondering, when it is listed as agricultural property, does that fall under your department or some other minister?

MR. LANGDON: That is Rick Woodford's department. That would be under Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. FRENCH: In order to have a change made in a community, such as the one in which I live, we would first have to come to your department, would we not, to seek a plan change? Or would we not?

MR. SMART: Depending on how that agricultural zone was established in the first place, there were a number of agricultural zones established by Order-in-Council, such as the St. John's agricultural zone, and therefore it would fall under the jurisdiction of the minister of agriculture, and would require an Order-in-Council to have those amended. There are other agricultural zones that are established within municipality boundaries, and if the municipality wanted to modify an agricultural zone that it had established, we could look at that in our department. So it all depends on the mechanism by which it may have been established in the first place.

MR. FRENCH: If it was established by agriculture, then the person in my area who is seeking a change or who wants a change would really have to go to Rick, Oliver, and not to yourself.

MR. LANGDON: That is right.

MR. FRENCH: Down in the next section, 1.2.01.01., Salaries, we budgeted $445,500; we spent $369,200; and now for the year 2000-2001 we are going back up to $381,300. Does that mean, for part of last year under Salaries, when we budgeted $445,500, there was a position which was not filled so we only spent $369,200? And this year are we creating another position that is going to put us back up to $381,300?

MR. LANGDON: No. From $445,500 to $369,200, that reduction shows the removal of the ADM for the special projects position. I think it might have been the St. John's Fire Chief, Mike Dwyer. Mike was with our department as ADM for special projects and then he went to work with - I am not sure of the actual name for it - the St. John's or the Avalon region firefighters, and became the Fire Chief or the fire executive down there.

MR. FRENCH: Is that position now filled within your department?

MR. LANGDON: No.

MR. FRENCH: Why have we budgeted $381,300 for this year?

MR. LANGDON: I would think, Bob, just looking at normal adjustments, probably an increase from an administrative position. I am not sure. Other than that, I think that is the only definition that I would give.

WITNESS: It is normal adjustment, step progression and -

MR. LANGDON: Step progression and things of that nature.

MR. FRENCH: I can only say that if a fellow is earning pretty close to $30,000 a pay period, he is getting some salary. He must have some job. I wouldn't mind having a job like it, let me tell you that.

WITNESS: The change is from $369,200 to $381,300.

WITNESS: That is $12,000.

MR. LANGDON: It is $12,000.

WITNESS: For all staff.

MR. FRENCH: A pay period.

WITNESS: No, no, for the year.

MR. FRENCH: Oh, okay.

WITNESS: We just had an extra pay period for the whole (inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Can we go to page 230. Under subhead 1.2.02.06., Purchased Services, we budgeted $69,800, and we spent $118,300. Why was that?

MR. LANGDON: This increase reflects greater than anticipated advertising costs related to Fire Prevention Week, Municipalities Week, job competitions and so on. We over budgeted there for that. We didn't actually need the money.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

On page 231, subhead 2.1.01.06., again, Minister, Purchased Services, we budgeted $147,300, we only spent $147,100, and it is $147,300 for this year. My question here is: What kind of services are they? What services are we talking about here?

MR. LANGDON: There is an increase of barely $200.

MR. FRENCH: No, but I mean -

MR. LANGDON: You want what kind of service it is?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. The $147,300, what are we spending that on?

WITNESS: Rent for the regional offices.

MR. LANGDON: One of the officials says, Bob, it is rent for the regional offices that we would have. We have regional offices in Grand Falls-Windsor, we have one in Gander, we have an office in Corner Brook and we have one in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. I am not sure if we have another one or not.

WITNESS: There is one at the Viking Building.

MR. LANGDON: One at the Viking Building as well.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Sir.

On page 232, subhead 2.2.01.10., Grants and Subsidies, we budgeted $201,000 for this year. I just wondered what type of grants and subsidies they are.

MR. LANGDON: That is the number of feasibility studies that were completed with respect to the regionalization of municipal services, and it was less than what we had anticipated.

Let me give you the list of grants that were here, Bob: Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities was $13,000; Municipal Training and Development Partnership was $36,000; Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Municipal Administrators was $12,000; the Combined Councils of Labrador was $35,000; and Regional Cooperative Initiatives was $80,000, for a total of $201,000.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Sir.

On page 233, Minister, subhead 2.3.01.05, Professional Services, we had $23,000 there last year, $23,000 again, but we spent $55,900. I just wonder why the increase to $55,900, and if you can tell me exactly what type of services we are talking about?

MR. LANGDON: Number thirty-seven there, that reflects the relocation of funds from special assistance in order to hire an engineering consultant to oversee the investigation and drilling of a new well for the water supply system in the Goulds Pond Road area - I think that might have been Tom Hedderson's area -

MR. FRENCH: I know where it is, yes.

MR. LANGDON: - and to digitize a number of the department's hard copy maps. That was $20,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Minister, 2.3.02., again Professional Services, we budgeted $161,400 and we spent 197,900 - I would like to know why that is - and we budgeted $151,100 for this year. Can you tell me what type of professional services are under that heading as well?

MR. LANGDON: We have thirty-eight and forty-two, right?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: We have $151,100; $197,900; and $161,400? That is the area? Subhead 2.3.02.05., is that the one we are looking at?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is the one, Sir.

MR. LANGDON: Basically, these Professional Services expenditures are for the industrial water systems. We have a number of those industrial water systems in different communities now where the plants used to run on them. For example, there used to be one in Gaultois, Ramea, Seldom, and Comfort Cove. Basically what we are doing is, we are getting rid of those industrial water systems after we bring them up to par. That would mean that we would need less money to be able to operate some of them because they have been disposed of. We had to engage engineering consultants as well to oversee the repairs and to do upgrades a little quicker than we had anticipated. That is what these services are.

MR. FRENCH: So most of that money, in actual fact then, will actually go to consultants. Is that what you are telling me?

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Down and under that there is Purchased Services. We budgeted $641,100, we only spent $570,000, and this year we are $599,600. I am not worried about the difference in the amounts of money, but if you could tell me, please, exactly what type services are budgeted and covered off under that?

MR. LANGDON: That is the industrial water systems still. Once we upgrade it to whatever standard it is, and we divert ourselves of it, since we pay 100 per cent of it upfront for the municipalities that are affected, then they take control of these particular systems afterwards. So that is where that money would be primarily to the communities that have industrial water systems.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, Minister, I do not have any more questions - a couple of my colleagues are going to take them up - but I do have one question left in my mind.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: There was money budgeted under this year's budget to help municipalities in our Province correct water problems. As you and I both know, there is something in excess of 200 municipalities now in this Province who are under boil orders for their drinking water.

I have been around this Island a few times. I stayed in a hotel not too long ago where - and I take certain medications - I got up in the morning and I took the medication with bottled that was provided in the room. I know of other municipalities in this Province where there is a boil order on and they advise you, when you go in and check in to their hotel room, not to even brush your teeth with the water that comes out of the tap. What are the plans for this money that was in the budget? How are we going to correct some of these problems that some of the municipalities have?

MR. LANGDON: As you know, first of all my predecessor last year, Joan Marie Aylward, at the convention of mayors and municipalities, I think they put forward something like $1.5 million at that particular time to help towns whose chlorinator systems are not working properly or wanted to have new ones installed or upgraded. We have had a number of takes on these from communities right across the whole Province. Still, as we speak, there are others that we are helping out almost on a daily basis to do that.

What I wanted to say you, I guess, in that sense, is that we have put extra money in there this year into the water budget to address some of these needs. There is no doubt about it, there are a lot of needs out there. I do not have to tell you, you know are well as I do, with all the communities that we have incorporated, and the local service districts and communities that are unincorporated, we have probably close to 832 bodies of water that the municipalities depend on. To be able to address them as fast and as quickly as we would like would be almost impossible to do, but we are actively working with the municipalities, the ones that need chlorination. I met with the member. Wallace's group was in the other day. They had a problem with one of their towns. I just forget the name of town now.

WITNESS: Hawkes Bay.

MR. LANGDON: Hawkes Bay. Right on the spot we said to them, these are dollars -

MR. FRENCH: That is one of the municipalities in which I stayed.

MR. LANGDON: We just said to the community: You go ahead and get it done. We told the engineer to do that, and we paid 100 per cent for the community even before they left the office. We are trying to do that with as many municipalities as we can.

MR. FRENCH: I know that there are some municipalities in the Province which have dug wells.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Not dug by hand, but dug by machinery.

MR. LANGDON: Ground dug.

MR. FRENCH: Is any of this money earmarked to serve some of these communities?

MR. LANGDON: For chlorination and that, you mean?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. The thing is, in every community now, Bob, whether by ground water or surface water, if it is not chlorinated, we are saying to them: You have to chlorinate or else leave the boil water on.

Believe it or not, there are certain people who say to us: Our ground water, our artisan wells, the water in them is pure and we do not need it chlorinated; we get it tested, and all those things. But we have the directive - using the Canadian water standards association guidelines - saying that if the water is not chlorinated then we will suggest to the community that they do boil the water.

That is where we had a large number of municipalities last summer that were given that boil order to do that, because the water wasn't chlorinated.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Thank you very much.

I have to be excused.

MR. LANGDON: What I can say to you before you go, Bob, is that we are giving consideration to the communities that have very serious needs for their chlorinator system, and there are no questions asked. It is 100 per cent funded by the department, as Wallace would attest the other day when he came in.

MR. FRENCH: The last time I saw such a big crowd as this with the minister was when Art Reid was the minister. It is good to see.

MR. LANGDON: Are you going to make the same comment? You are going to reserve judgment on that, are you?

MR. FRENCH: I have to reserve judgment. You are not there long enough, Oliver.

MR. LANGDON: I understand.

MR. FRENCH: I almost got eaten by some of my own people for praising Art.

MR. LANGDON: Thanks Bob.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

It is a pleasure again to be asking questions to the minister. I have asked questions to this minister for some time. While I might say that in the House we fight vigorously, outside the House we have a mutual respect. He is a decent fellow indeed.

I will go back to 1.1.01.01., under Salaries. There has been a continuous increase from the amount budgeted last year through to the revised and then to the Estimates this year. I was wondering why we do have extra?

MR. LANGDON: I do have a Parliamentary Assistant, a Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Walsh, and there are certain remunerations that are associated with that position. That would be some indication for the increase there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Subhead 1.2.02.03., Transportation and Communication.

MR. LANGDON: The funds have been allocated there, Tom, to cover an increase in postage costs associated with the implementation of a new collection procedure related to accounts receivable.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate that the extra expenditures will actually be reflected in the amounts collected?

MR. LANGDON: That is for Government Services and Lands.

Ramona?

MS COLE: Government Services and Lands has a large number of permit fees, a large number of small revenue items, and we have increased our collection efforts in regard to those because there are a lot of them outstanding. In order to actually carry out the collection procedures, we need an increase of about $80,000 for postage.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

There is about an $84,000 increase there. I guess my question is: Do you anticipate receiving in excess of $80,000 -

MS COLE: We have actually received quite a lot in excess of $80,000 already, just through the beginning of the increased collection procedures.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Over and above what was collected?

MS COLE: Yes. I think they expect to collect well in excess of $1 million actually.

MR. T. OSBORNE: In excess of what was being collected previously?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01., again under 01., Salaries, there is an increase there as well.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. Remember we said we were going to hire three engineering technicians to assist the municipalities with their drinking water initiatives. So these are these people.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Excellent. Okay.

Under 03., Transportation and Communications.

MR. LANGDON: Obviously if we are going to have these extra people, they are going to be doing more traveling and so on, so that will pick up their transportation costs.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely.

Under 2.2.01., again under 01., Salaries.

MR. LANGDON: This is additional funds provided to cover the transfer of an executive director from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, and this is partly offset by a vacant position in the division for 2001-2002. The savings in this division reflect a vacant position for part of the year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. So, there was a position transferred from Housing?

MR. LANGDON: Executive Director of Policy and Planning, yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Transportation and Communications, there was a $7,000 increase from the budgeted last year to the revised. I noticed throughout the Estimates actually, the $7,000 figure seems to be fairly consistent.

MR. LANGDON: What the people have said here is that, because of the committees of government talking about participation in Federation of Municipalities delegations - these would be people from our department who would accompany, for example, the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities, if they did a trek to the United States or to Vancouver looking at municipalities and ways to improve their system. We would have somebody from the department who would accompany them. They have been doing a bit more of that over the last couple of years, so, in a sense, if we are going to accompany them then we need extra dollars to be able to do that. I think that is where that comes from.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.01., Salaries: It is not so much the increase from the budgeted last year to the estimated this year, but to the revised amount last year.

MR. LANGDON: This relates to the retention of a program coordinator to administer the Disaster Financial Assistance Program fund. On the South Coast last year, when they had a vicious storm, they had major damage in Port aux Basques and other communities along the coast, so we had a coordinator who was responsible for that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Again under Transportation, the $7,000 -

MR. LANGDON: That is the new infrastructure program they had in place between the feds and us. There were a couple of times when people in the department, who administer the infrastructure program for us, went to meetings in Moncton. This signifies the extra cost that is there for that.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02., Transportation and Communications, there is a $7,000 increase under the revised last year.

MR. LANGDON: I guess, also, that refers to travel of people within the department. There were a few trips higher than what we had anticipated. Again, with the breakdown of some of these industrial water supply systems that we have, some of them are getting old, and we are responsible for them, so if something happens then we have to send somebody from the department to take care of that rather than have the community itself do it.

We are hoping, over the long run, that once we get all of those done - and there are not a large number of them left, Tom, these industrial water supply systems - then the department won't be responsible for that. As I said to you earlier, we will give them a system that meets the standards and then after that the communities have agreed to operate it.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 3.1.02., under Municipal Operating Grants, there is approximately a $2 million increase under last year's -

MR. LANGDON: Yes. This reflects the provision of a one-time funding to assist municipalities. I have a list of the municipalities that would be here.

WITNESS: It is pro-rated among all of them.

MR. LANGDON: It is pro-rated among everybody. There are communities that, for example, might have a problem with the sewer system, and they come to us and say, we cannot afford it, or whatever the case might be. It might be $25,000 or $30,000. We look at it and basically pick up the cost for them. There might be other examples that, if Wayne Churchill were here, he could probably relate to us. But, basically that is what it is.

These happen all the time, by the way. In any municipality, whether it is Hawks Bay or one in my district, or whatever, there are circumstances sometimes that are unforeseen in the budget, and when you have a small municipality they look to us for help. We have to leave somewhat of a number in the budget to deal with that, because it is like - and I use Wallace again - when you came the other day. If we did not have the dollars there for that, through the chlorination system, we would find it somewhere else. It could be that he would come in say: We have a major problem with one of our life stations, and we cannot manage it ourselves, we want you to do it for us. It is a one-time thing and that is done right across the whole Province. I am sure members on both sides of the House would know what I am talking about, and they have had the opportunity to access that fund.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Again under Special Assistance, 3.1.03., Grants and Subsidies, 10., it was almost $4 million last year.

MR. LANGDON: That is job creation and that stuff right across the whole Province. Last year, I guess, every district and every MHA had make-work projects, MCP, especially in the rural parts of the Province and that is what that would show.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 3.2.02., the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program. I am just wondering if you can give us an idea of what has been happening there.

MR. LANGDON: As I said to Bob earlier - I did not get into the numbers - I guess over the last few months all of the municipalities, small towns and communities in the larger cities and so on, have been looking for money under the infrastructure program to deal with problems, primarily in green projects such as water and sewer. We are putting emphasis on that. In fact, we have had over 1,000 requests - I think it is 1,046 requests - and something in excess of $521 million, and we have $50 million to be able to deal with the problem. There is no doubt about it, it has taken a lot of work. We are still assessing it in the department and the people of the department are looking at all of these projects, and are in the process of assessing them. We should very shortly be able to say what communities or what projects would be allocated for this year. We want to take it and do it - every project is important, but we cannot look after 1,046. So, I guess, it is the most urgent ones that we look at first. We want to do due diligence to it before we release it. That is where we are.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Under 3.2.03., there is an increase there under 06., Purchased Services, from the budgeted amount last through to the Estimates this year.

MR. LANGDON: This reflects an increase in the carryover of commitments in 2001-2002, federal funding under the federal agreement. So it is a carryover. Sometimes when you have projects, they give you funding for one year and it is carried over two or three years. So that is funding that is carried over for that particular period as shown in that particular float there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Under 4.1.02., Supplies, 04., there is about $23,000 less spent than what was actually budgeted for.

MR. LANGDON: Yes. This again relates to reduced activity levels related to emergency training and emergency planning initiatives, partly due to a vacant position, as well as a level of activity under these programs that varies from year to year. Because of the vacant position we have, that is why it was only $13,400, and will go back to its original estimate of $36,000 for this year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am going to skip ahead for a moment to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, page 243, under 1.1.01. There is an increase there under Grants and Subsidies.

MR. LANGDON: Say that one again, Tom.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.1.01., under Grants and Subsidies.

MR. LANGDON: So it is gone from $6,400,000 revised and budgeted to $8,260,000.

Can you speak to that, Les?

MR. DEAN: Mr. Minister, I will ask Mr. Conway, Chief Financial Officer, to speak to the increase.

MR. CONWAY: There were a number of increases that the Corporation incurred last year in many areas of operation. With respect to the Budget increase, the increases are due primarily to additional funding to cover significantly higher home-heating costs, previously negotiated salary and pay equity costs, the Northern Coast of Labrador expenditures and support for community centers.

MR. LANGDON: (Inaudible) this year or the fact that it was highlighted in the Budget. It is to offset the cost of program coordinators in the corporation funded community centers. We have a number of them here in St. John's. I can just think of the one down in Mr. Noel's -

WITNESS: Virginia Park.

MR. LANGDON: Virginia Park. There is one at Buckmaster's Circle and there is one at Brophy Place.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Again, I guess, somewhat of a carryover to some of the comments that Bob made: I found that the staff at Housing have been very, very helpful with any inquiries that I have had, which is very much appreciated. However, under the PHRP, I have run into some resistance there. I haven't had any inquiries that I have had complications with lately, but I have, over the previous couple of years - and I can contact you, perhaps later, Les, on one of those to see if we can rectify that particular situation - found that in some circumstances where the conditions that people are living in are far from desirable, it is very difficult to get funding for them under the PHRP program. Again, it is seldom that it happens, but when it does, I guess it is frustrating to deal with that particular situation. In general, with housing inquiries and so on, I have to commend the staff of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. They have been very, very helpful. Whenever we have an inquiry they are always very quick to respond.

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Chairman, it is good to hear that because, as I indicated, in the two months that I have been at the Corporation, generally, I have found that the comments on the performance of the staff have been very, very favorable, all over.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely. They all deserve raises, I will say to the minister.

WITNESS: They just got that.

MR. LANGDON: They just got that, and very substantial over the three years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Well, they deserve them.

MR. LANGDON: They do so. Absolutely!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Absolutely!

The only complaint that I have with the Housing Corporation is the PHRP program.

MR. LANGDON: Mary.

MS MARSHALL: Mr. Osborne, I would like to clarify. This last year we have made some significant changes in the policy surrounding the Provincial Home Repair Program, so I would hope that the ones you are talking about, that have been problematic, are more in the past. I know that in my position I do not seem to have quite as many complaints this year as I have had in previous years. If you are still getting the same level of complaint we would like to hear that feedback, because we did make a lot of changes in the last year. In response we need comments from yourself and many of the members who represent their constituents. As I say, I hope that there hasn't been quite the same level of difficulty.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is one still outstanding. Again, we can speak on that after. We don't have to get into the details of it in Committee. We will see if we can rectify that.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Young.

MR. YOUNG: Thank you.

Pretty much all of the questions I had have been addressed all the way through, so I just have one question.

The Fire Commissioner's Office, under 4.2.01.06., Purchased Services, there was an increase there.

MR. LANGDON: That would be the rental cost for the Commissioner's Office relocating to Deer Lake. Also, a part of it relates to vehicle repair costs and the need to lease and rent vehicles for short durations to replace vehicles which were out of service. That is a combination of having to lease or rent when vehicles breakdown, and, as I said, a part of it is the relocation to Deer Lake.

MR. YOUNG: Okay.

I just had a question there, but I haven't had the opportunity, really, to work much with the department since arriving, but it has been a pleasure so far.

MR. LANGDON: As I said to you, the door is always open and I want to be able to work with you.

MR. YOUNG: Great.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne, do you have another question?

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess, just a friendly reminder. I know that the minister is working on a petition that I raised today.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just to address the staff of Housing: There is a very serious need for handicapped accessible housing in the Shea Heights area. I know that you have been working on it and that you are aware of it, but, I guess, for the benefit of your staff, just the opportunity to voice that concern. If there is anything you can do to provide a couple of units, or to perhaps construct a couple of units in the very near future up there, the demand for it in that area is very high.

MR. LANGDON: I have discussed that, Tom, with Liz and Mary in meetings that we have had, so hopefully we can address that. I will leave it with Mary and Liz to do so.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have one question and a couple of comments. First of all, on the municipal side of things, I want to say that I really appreciate the fact that there have been changes in the municipal infrastructure program, and changes that reflect the ability of a lot of rural communities in our Province to be able to access that program.

I have found it very frustrating in the past because I have all small communities which operate on very small budgets. I have found it very frustrating trying to access funding for those communities, to be able to do some very minor things in some cases because they are unable to participate on a larger scale. At least this change will allow them an opportunity now, and I want to commend the people in your department and you, Minister, for certainly taking a lead role in making that change.

I tell you, it gives a great deal of comfort to a lot of municipalities out there, knowing that they are able to access some funding this year, next year, and the year after, to be able to meet some of their demands that they have had in the past.

One of the questions that I have is with regard to your office in Labrador. Is there any movement at this time to staff that office with a regional director, in terms of looking at municipal issues for communities?

MS COLE: As you know, there is a regional manager acting there on an acting basis. He has been acting for quite a few years now, and I appreciate that. I think, whether it is filled on a permanent basis or on an acting basis, it would still be the same level of service that is provided.

MS JONES: I sense that at this particular time we need to really look at the staffing in the office in terms of -

MS COLE: His municipal analyst position has not been filled since he left it vacant, and that may be the one that we need to look at filling.

MS JONES: I just want to leave that with you guys, as a suggestion, to do that over the next little while.

MS COLE: Sure.

MS JONES: The other thing that I want to make comment on is in housing. Ms Marshall is here. I want to say thank you to her publicly because she has been a tremendous help to me in a number of issues in my district, some that I thought there was no way to get around but thankfully we did get around them.

In the last year, I have certainly found a lot of changes with regard to the number of calls I get on housing. It seems that some of the policies that have been changed have allowed people who actually need the services the most to get them in a quicker response time. I do not have to go back very far to see the calls that we would have gotten with regard to the wait list. It seems like it has almost been eliminated, and people are very much satisfied with the response time from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. My experience with it is that people who really need urgent responses and urgent services are getting them. I think that was the whole purpose of the program from the beginning, and I am glad to see that it is starting to work for the people who need it most. I commend you on a job well done.

Thank you. Those are my comments.

MR. LANGDON: If I just can respond to that for one moment, I think it also speaks well for the people in the regional offices as well, who you can access and be able to work with them. There is no doubt about it, that Mary and Liz will continue to work with the regional offices and with the members so that we can even improve on what we already have. You are right, there have been major changes and I think that it is a benefit for the clients for whom the service was first originated.

MS JONES: Minister, I tell you, there is a fabulous crowd in that office in Labrador as well. I know they have a big caseload with all of Northern Labrador, and there are a lot of housing issues there, but they have done a tremendous job and get out to all the communities. As you know, it is very hard to get out to those communities, because you have to fly in and out, but they are doing a good job. In terms of passing along compliments, I had to make note of it today.

Thank you.

MR. LANGDON: Good.

CHAIR: Mr. Mercer.

MR. MERCER: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY: Just a couple of quick comments.

Minister, I have to say that I am delighted to see the changes made in the infrastructure program this year. Mary, don't faint when I say this, but I must say I am pleased with the direction in which we are going with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, because you know how I felt for so long.

I must say that the number of calls - they haven't stopped, I will say that - are decreasing. They are getting fewer. Whatever direction we are going in here, let's keep going.

Thanks.

CHAIR: I will make a quick comment. Under the Fire Protection, Municipal Fire Services, I would just like to make one comment. If at all possible, Minister - and I don't ask you or the staff to respond - if there is some way that we can get the Fire Commissioner's Office, even the funding or in some way the building, to do a bit more training in rural Newfoundland, out on the West Coast, because it is a big issue out our way. It is something that is always brought up to me. It is not critical but they would just like to see more in-service.

MS COLE: I would like to make a comment on that. In defense of the Fire Commissioner's Office, we have had numerous incidents in the past where they will do up a training schedule and it will be sent out. They will actually have people register for it and then go to those areas to carry out the training and find that, if they have fifteen or sixteen people registered, there may be two show up. It gets very frustrating for them also, from the Fire Commissioner's Office side, so I think it needs to work both ways.

I think part of it, too, is that it is difficult for the firefighters to come out because they are volunteers and they need to take time off work in a lot of cases, but they try to schedule them for weekends. What happens then is: if they get a good weekend for moose hunting, or for whatever else comes up, then they don't show up for the training. That gets to be a bit frustrating.

CHAIR: Well, however we can do it - it is not being critical. The volunteer firefighters that I deal with are not critical of the Fire Commissioner's Office in any way. They are very supportive.

Just on a personal note, in my dealings with the department and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing for the last twelve years, Minister, as my colleagues mentioned, the change to the infrastructure program, I think it is great. It is great news to the municipalities, it is great news to the Province, and it is great news to the people who are without water and sewerage as the basic necessities.

To the staff I have been dealing with for twelve years, I thank you. I know the regional staff in Corner Brook - Tom Dunphy, whom I deal with - and the local municipalities give nothing but excellent service. The door is always open and there are just no complaints whatsoever out our way.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, Mary and Liz, I have been involved with that for many years. I can guarantee that there are a lot more success stories and a lot more help than there is criticism. I have been one who has been brought forward and I was told sometimes that I am not aggressive enough, that I don't push my view, but I may change. Who knows?

On behalf of the constituents and the people I have been dealing with - for nine years I was dealing with the people from St. Anthony to Port aux Basques and into Baie Verte. I can assure you, there are a lot. I am very confident in saying that 98 per cent of people are saying: We may not get what we want, but we get the services that we get from you department.

To all the staff, personally I thank you, and thank you on behalf of the constituents that I deal with. All I can say is that rural Newfoundland needs a strong Municipal and Provincial Affairs Department, and I think we have one.

Thank you very much.

Before we go, we will ask for the subhead.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01. through 4.2.01.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.2.01., carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, total heads, carried.

CLERK: Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, subhead 1.1.01.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01., carried.

On motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I would like a motion to accept the minutes of the meeting of April 4, 2001.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and thank you, staff. Again, it has been a pleasure.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.