Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mary Hodder, MHA Burin-Placentia West, substitutes for Wally Andersen, MHA Torngat Mountains.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Sweeney): Order, please!

I guess we will start. There is another committee member on his way along and should be here in a few moments.

My name is George Sweeney. I am the Chair of the Government Services Committee. I would like to mention to, especially the officials from the department, that the audio system is downstairs. I think it is Kevin again this morning and Kevin only has that one camera to see, so probably identify yourself before you speak. I think we are okay here on this side. Kevin is pretty well used to the routine. Just identify yourselves for the purposes of Hansard.

Other than that, I guess we will start off with Committee members introducing themselves.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. E. BYRNE: Ed Byrne, MHA for Kilbride.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for Labrador West.

CHAIR: Minister, would you like to -

Eddie Joyce will be here in a moment.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Percy Barrett, Minister of Works, Services and Transportation and the Member for Bellevue.

On my immediate right is John Baker, the Executive Director for Marine. On my left is Don Osmond, who was just recently appointed Deputy Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, replacing Barb Knight. Next to Don we have Keith White, Executive Director of Roads. Behind me are Lynn Evans, Director of Communications, Weldon Moores, recently appointed Assistant Deputy Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, John Byrne, Manager of Budget, and Denise Hanrahan, Director of Financial Operations.

I guess before we get into -

CHAIR: Just one moment, Minister. Before you, you have a copy of the last minutes. If there are no errors or omissions then the motion is in order to adopt.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

We will call the subheads. Elizabeth, would you be kind enough?

CLERK (Elizabeth Murphy): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Minister, you are free to begin with your opening remarks.

MR. BARRETT: Before I get into the details of the Budget, I would like to give a brief overview of the department. Our department's mission is to work in consultation with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador to ensure a safe, efficient and sustainable transportation system and to meet the needs of the public sector for accommodations, public buildings, facilities and support services.

The department has three lines of business. The Works branch is responsible for the provision of building and design services, construction management, facilities maintenance, accommodations and real property acquisitions. Our Service area provides clients with purchasing services, motor vehicle fleet management, water bomber fleet and air ambulance services, airstrip infrastructure, printing, telephone, web access and mail services. The Transportation branch covers the regulation and provision of the provincial highway system and marine passenger and freight service, port management and transportation related policies.

As the government's largest department, Works, Services and Transportation has 2,300 employees of which approximately 1,500 are permanent and the remainder are temporary and seasonal. These employees dedicate themselves to carrying out the many and varied responsibilities of the department. Some of these responsibilities include maintaining over 800 buildings and facilities. We have almost 2,200 vehicles in the government-wide fleet for which the department manages distribution and maintenance. This includes ploughs, graders, trucks, cars and all-terrain vehicles. Our air services division maintains a fleet of ten aircraft including six CL-215 water bombers, a Cessna fire spotter, two Cansos and King Air 350 air ambulance. We maintain thirteen airstrips in Labrador and nine on the Island. Our Transportation branch maintains approximately 9,000 kilometres of road in the Province and manages the construction of the provincial highway projects. The Marine Services Division operates sixteen ferry routes throughout the Province. The department uses twenty-one vessels on these services of which twelve are owned by government and nine are owned by contractors. The department also maintains forty-four ports around the Province.

To cover all these responsibilities, the department manages a substantial budget. Our current account budget is $158.5 million and our capital account for 2002-2003 is $105.5 million for a total budget of approximately $264 million.

I am very pleased in this time of fiscal restraint that the provincial capital roads budget has remained at $22 million reflecting this government's commitment to improving local road infrastructure. Approximately $23 million will be invested in roads in Labrador this year, including $17 million to complete Phase II of the Trans Labrador Highway from Red Bay to Cartwright. We have also planned some upgrading to the highway in Labrador West. Total federal-provincial investment in roads in 2002-2003 will be approximately $82 million. As announced in the Budget, this government has publicly committed to constructing Phase III of the Trans Labrador from Goose Bay to Cartwright. We will commit approximately $70 million per year over a six-year period to ensure this project, which will have social and economic benefits for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, is completed.

Starting next year marine services for Labrador will be reconfigured to coincide with the opening of the Trans Labrador Highway. Government has introduced other measures to improve marine services in the Province. We will invest $2.2 million in wharf and terminal upgrades in Labrador in this coming year. Government will also invest $1.8 million into wharf upgrades on the Island portion of this Province. This includes $1.3 million for improvements to the Bell Island wharf and $500,000 for upgrades to wharves in other areas of the Island part of the Province. Just last week I announced that Bell Island will have a two-vessel service for twelve months of the year. Government also announced in the Throne Speech that we will initiate a vessel replacement and a refurbishing program to address the needs of our provincial ferry operations. The first initiative is to the complete the canonization of the Hull 100.

In addition to our Budget, we manage multi-million dollar projects for client departments such as Health and Community Services, Education and Tourism. Some of these include The Rooms and most school and hospital projects.

The department is still in need of additional funding for preventive maintenance to extend the life of our infrastructure and to address issues through our aging infrastructure. A federal-provincial agreement is needed to address the many demands we have with respect to upgrading highway and road infrastructure. In the meantime, we are in the process of finalizing with the federal government the three-year strategic highway infrastructure program. However, we will need the federal government to commit to long-term sustained funding for our highways.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to provide an overview of the department and our budget for the coming fiscal year. I now welcome any questions from the Committee.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

Jack, do you want to start?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

WITNESS: I do not know if I have any questions today or not.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I have a few. I will manage to get a few out, I expect.

WITNESS: Jack, you get a half-hour.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Anyway, with respect to the subheads themselves, I am going to go right into the subheads and then probably have some general questions for later. On page 71 of the Estimates, section 1.1.01, Minister's Office, Salaries, I see you have $216,500 which seems to be comparable to other departments. I do not expect to get this here now, but could you supply us with a breakdown of the staff with respect to political communications and that type of thing in your office?

MR. BARRETT: Well, actually I have three positions. There is a departmental secretary, Lynn Evans, who is the Director of Communications, behind me, an executive assistant and a district secretary.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Under 06, Purchased Services, you budgeted $3,700, and you have $6,000 there. What would those extra services be?

MR. BARRETT: One of the things was, we hosted the Atlantic Provinces Ministers last year. That is one of the reasons it is higher. There were some other ceremonies that we had, the naming of the Veterans Memorial Highway and a few other things. We did have some special events that were over and above what was normal.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Executive Support, 1.2.01, section 03, Transportation and Communications, you budgeted $65,000, you spent $43,300 and this year it is back up to $55,000. Can you give us an explanation as to what that Transportation and Communications money was actually spent on?

MR. BARRETT: The Executive Support would be the transportation of the Deputy Ministers and the ADMs and Executive Directors, Marine. It was down last year and this year we reduced it a further $10,000, but that is in line with the 8 per cent in terms of operating. We have limited out-of-the-Province travel, with only essential travel out of the Province.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 72 of the Estimates, Administrative Support, 1.2.02, in Salaries you budgeted $2,132,000 last year, you spent $2,023,900 and this year it is up $2,273,000 which is basically $140,000 more than was budgeted last year, yet you only spent $2,023,000 this past year. Why would that be such a significant range?

MR. BARRETT: Well, in Salaries, of course, we would be taking into consideration that there was a salary increase.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes, but I thought there was a freeze on with respect to employee hiring within the government this year according to the Budget.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but even with that, it is down if you look at the fact that there are two wage increases coming this year that have to be taken into consideration.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay, we will accept that.

Employee Benefits, $1,501,000 budgeted, spent $1,630,000 and then you have the same amount budgeted this year. If you get employee benefits, wouldn't you think that would go up the same percentage rate as the Salaries. roughly?

MR. BARRETT: One of the reasons for the Employee Benefits that was revised upwards was the changes in the workers' compensation costs.

MR. JACK BYRNE: But when you make the comparison, what I am saying now, between Employee Benefits there, you had $1,501,000 budgeted last year, you spent $1,600,000 and you are back to $1,500,000 this year. In the column above that, Salaries, you would think that the Employee Benefits would correlate with the Salaries, wouldn't you, if the Salaries have gone up by $140,000? So, I am just curious as to your previous answer, that is all, and make that comparison.

MR. BARRETT: John?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: Employee Benefits have no relation to Salaries for current staff. It is total payments to workers' compensation for injured workers. The personnel costs are all covered off in the salary budget for staff.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So, that Employee Benefits is just workers' comp?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: Just workers' comp.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Transportation and Communications, again you have $665,000 budgeted, $554,000 spent, and it is down to $383,000 this year. You mentioned an 8 per cent restriction this year; yet, you have more people employed and you are going to have less transportation, significantly. How do you rationalize that?

MR. BARRETT: Well, actually there was a one-time expenditure last year in terms of $275,000 for regionalization of the air services. That is not there this year.

MR. JACK. BYRNE: That $275,000, what would that have been? The relocation to central?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Purchased Services, $316,100 budgeted and spent $420,000, which is $104,000 more, roughly. What would that have been spent for, those Purchased Services particularly?

MR. BARRETT: That is revised down due to reduced Small Claims Court and arbitration costs.

MR. JACK BYRNE: It has been reduced down, yes, from last year spent to this year, but the increase from $316,000 up to $420,000 is $104,000 more spent than budgeted. What would it have been for?

MR. BARRETT: That would have been small claims and arbitration. There were more arbitration cases.

MR. JACK BYRNE: More arbitration cases, small claims. Could you give some examples of what they actually were?

MR. BARRETT: I will ask -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: Oh, Purchased Services.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, you are talking about Purchased Services. I thought you were talking about Professional Services.

MR. JACK BYRNE: No, no.

MR. BARRETT: The budget to reduce - one-time training funds for air services. It was one-time training services.

MR. JACK BYRNE: That was increased amount, up to $104,000 over what was budgeted?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Was that because some of the people who were employed with the department did not want to go to central, and there were so many new people?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but there was also some special training that we had to provide for air services anyway. They have to be continually updated. Keith can probably give you more details about that, but I know that we provided some extra training this year for our air services.

MR. WHITE: Yes, there was extra training this year. We did have some new staff in Gander but also every year there is recurrent training for pilots and maintenance staff, a requirement of Transport Canada.

MR. JACK BYRNE: But each year if you have upgrading and training, I would imagine that would have been included in the original $316,000. That extra $104,000 that was spent, that would have been basically due to the fact that you relocated to Gander and you had to hire new people, for people who probably would not go, or retired.

MR. WHITE: We also had some additional training for the new King Air which we purchased late the previous year, some pilot training.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Information Technology, under the same subhead, you had budgeted $849,500 and you actually spent $1,063,500, which is a significant increase of $200,000. More than $200,000; it is $214,000, I think. I have always had a problem with Information Technology in every department that I question. Now, I know we have to keep up with the times and keep ahead, whatever the case may be, but there has to come a point in time where the equipment and the programs that run those computers have to be sufficient to do the job. An extra $200,000 over what was budgeted this year, could you explain why that would be?

MR. BARRETT: The information, that was revised due to transfers from other divisions for required hardware and software purchases. We did some more hardware and software purchases. That is why it was up.

MR. JACK BYRNE: To me, if you are going to have people transferred into your department, wouldn't that normally be included in your Estimates? I mean, it is up $200,000. This is a 20 per cent, basically, or a 25 per cent, increase. There has to be more of a reason for it than that. Is it because, again, of the relocation - does that play a part in this - of the government employees?

MR. BARRETT: No, I do not think it was the relocation. It was just the normal operations of the technology system, that is all.

MR. JACK BYRNE: If anyone else would like to ask questions, just let me know. I am keeping them going, but if anybody else has some just let me know.

On page 73 under Administration and Support Services, Salaries, you had budgeted $6,173,000, you spent $6,465,000, and it is back down to $5,995,000 this year. Why that significant bump up and back down again this year?

MR. BARRETT: We had a higher number of people retiring, and most of that extra salary was for severance payments. We had quite a lot of people last year who reached the age of retirement and it is one of the big factors in our department right now because we have a lot of people who are reaching the age of retirement so we do have a fair severance liability.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Could we get a breakdown of the people who retired out of the department, and the amount of money that was paid out to them?

MR. BARRETT: Oh, yes, we can provide those details in terms of how many people retired and what the severance payments were.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, 07., you had budgeted $5,000, you actually spent $38,100, and it is back down to $5,000 this year. That is over seven times what was budgeted. What would that $38,000 be for?

MR. BARRETT: Well, we purchased more equipment. I don't know....

MR. JOHN BYRNE: We made some purchases for radio equipment for our equipment fleet for the snowplough operators.

MR. JACK BYRNE: That radio equipment cost $33,000?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: Oh, yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: That is all it was for? It was just radio equipment?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Under Grants and Subsidies, you had budgeted $200,000, you spent $211,500, and this year it is up to $300,000. You mentioned a little while ago that all departments, basically, had been asked from the Minister of Finance for an 8 per cent decrease. Yet, this section here is going up $100,000 from what was budgeted last year. What would these Grants and Subsidies be for, and why the significant increase instead of a decrease this year?

MR. BARRETT: The reason it has increased is because we provided additional snowmobile grooming trails to Postville and Rigolet in Labrador. That is roughly $100,000 extra, and that is carried forward into this year too.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Would that normally, for that purpose, come out of your department?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Well, actually, the snowmobile trails - the two members here from Labrador - these are actually grooming of the road. It is the transportation link between communities, so it is the same as ploughing roads on the Island.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. BARRETT: We do not administer it ourselves. There is an association in Labrador that administers these snowmobile trails.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 74, subhead 2.1.03., Maintenance and Repairs, Salaries, you budgeted $8,257,800 and spent $8,594,000, which is roughly $300,000 more, and this year it is back down to $8,132,000. Can you explain the bump up and the bump back down this year?

MR. BARRETT: Last year, as you know, we had a lot of overtime costs in the poorer winter. That is why the costs were up.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Overtime.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. If you recall, even in April of last year we had the biggest snowstorm of the last forty or fifty years and there was a lot of cleanup. We had to bring equipment from the West Coast, and we even had to rent snow blowers from the City of St. John's.

MR. JACK BYRNE: We remember.

Under the same subhead, 09., Allowances and Assistance, there was $150,000 budgeted and you spent $185,000. That is $35,000 above. Why the bump? That would be related to the same thing as last year, I suppose, the amount of snow. What would that Allowances and Assistance be actually for?

MR. BARRETT: It was also revised up for damages to property and that sort of thing, with the winter fences and sidewalks and all these sorts of things, where probably more damage was being done because of the snow.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Under 2.1.04., Snow and Ice Control, section 04., Supplies, $11,818,000 budgeted, $11,970,400 revised, that would be for what? Gravel, sand, salt, that type of thing?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I have some other questions on maintenance. I will have them later on; I will have them prepared. I won't go into that right now.

On page 75, Administration, 2.2.01., subhead 01., Salaries, $3,610,600 versus $4,140,000, that is an extra $500,000. Would you explain that one?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. There were one-time severance payments and there were some additional staff because, as you realize, we had a very, very heavy program in terms of new schools, hospitals and that, within that particular division.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay.

I just have one question and then I will let someone ask.

MR. BARRETT: One we participated in yesterday.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. BARRETT: One we participated in yesterday.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Oh, yes, that was a good one.

Transportation and Communications, $429,000 versus $487,000 last year, and it is down to $412,000 this year.

MR. BARRETT: Well, because the staff increased and there were more schools constructed and more infrastructure constructed, of course, the travel costs would have been up, too, for our engineers and those people to do inspections and that sort of stuff.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Mr. Chair, someone else might want to ask a few questions now.

CHAIR: Ed?

MR. E. BYRNE: Good morning, Minister and staff.

I have some questions, I guess, more related to departmental policy on a number of fronts.

Your department takes care of all the government buildings in terms of property maintenance, property management, et cetera. Do we have many occupancy rates now in terms of what we own across the Province? Is there a full utilization on space? Do we need more space? This is just a subject of interest. I am not trying to go anywhere else with it. I am just trying to get a sense of what government owns and, you know, how much space we are filling. Are we renting out any space to the private sector? I know that in some instances we are leasing space where no government buildings exist. I understand that. So I will just leave that open-ended for a minute, if I could.

MR. BARRETT: Well, our buildings that we maintain are the two buildings here, the East and West Block, and, of course, the Prince Philip Natural Resources Building. Of course, we have the provincial building in Grand Falls and the building in Corner Brook. They are some of the ones we own, and some courthouses.

Don could probably give you more detail.

MR. E. BYRNE: Sure. Anybody who would like to answer is fine.

MR. OSMOND: Good morning.

We actually own approximately, give or take, six million square feet of space. That covers all the major buildings that the minister has just mentioned as well as some of the ones that oftentimes do not come quickly to mind: the correctional institute is (inaudible), forestry depots.

MR. E. BYRNE: In terms of all government buildings, everything we utilize, you are not responsible for all of it? There are just certain -

MR. OSMOND: Well, we would be the owner - governments, if you will. We hold the title. Our minister would hold the title to all of those properties and we would be responsible for maintaining those properties; but I think what you are referring to is that we do not obviously - we are not into correctional institutions and operating. They are being operated by the Department of Justice.

MR. E. BYRNE: No, I understand.

MR. OSMOND: But if there are repairs or maintenance required to those buildings and those institutions, it would our responsibility to do it.

MR. E. BYRNE: Would that come out of your budget as Works, Services and Transportation, or would there be appropriations satisfied or set aside in other departmental budgets, or a combination of both?

MR. OSMOND: A combination of both. It would depend upon the size of the work that would be undertaken. If it is routine maintenance and things of that nature, then it comes out of our department's budget. If, on the other hand, it is a fairly large capital undertaking, then it would generally, most times, come through the client department.

I might just mention as well, as you have mentioned, we do lease a significant amount of space as well. Right now, it is about 600,000 to 700,000 square feet in the Province.

MR. E. BYRNE: What is the general government policy or departmental policy dealing with leasing requirements, requests for proposals, if there is an emergency required? Is it public tender always or is it a combination of both? What is generally departmental or government policy dealing with the leasing of other buildings, for example?

MR. BARRETT: Because we do it for client departments, it depends on the urgency of the thing. It depends on their recommendations, too, because sometimes they get into an established area. Some of these departments are there to service the general public so that when they get established in a particular area and the people, the general public, get used to going there, then they normally want to extend the leases on these.

MR. E. BYRNE: It varies, then. Is that what you are saying?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: There are not always public tender calls.

MR. BARRETT: No.

MR. E. BYRNE: There are not always requests for proposals. It could be an extension of existing buildings that have been in place for some time, like the Workers' Compensation Review Division, for example. People understand that - that sort of way - or other buildings.

In terms to the move to Gander and the relocation of their services, how do we go about leasing the facilities there? And, what has been the cost, estimated at least, in the facilities? My understanding is that the cost is huge. I could be wrong and, if I am wrong, please correct me immediately; but just in terms of, once the decision was taken to move air services to Gander - I will get to the cost of that a little later - but in terms of leasing the facilities, how did we go about leasing the necessary facilities? What is the square footage? Who did we end up leasing with or from? And, what would the cost, generally, estimated to be for the year?

MR. BARRETT: There was no tender for that because I guess it was limited in terms of, there was only a limited amount of space available in Gander because it had to be a hangar at the airport. That particular lease was negotiated. I cannot remember, offhand, the name of the company that the lease was with. GAT is it?

WITNESS: General Aviation Terminals.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, GAT, General Aviation Terminals. I think it was a ten-year contract with an extension, but there were major renovations that had to be done to the terminal itself.

MR. E. BYRNE: How much renovation? How much, cost wise, did we incur in terms of renovations?

MR. BARRETT: It was included in the lease price, the cost of the renovations.

MR. E. BYRNE: What is the lease price per year that we are paying on the hangar? It was a ten-year contract, you said, that you entered into, Minister?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: A ten-year contract with the possibility of an extension, an option of extending?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: What was the cost of the lease per year?

MR. BARRETT: Six-hundred and seventy-two thousand.

MR. E. BYRNE: Six-hundred and seventy-two thousand per year?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Is that everything? There are no other costs coming from any other appropriations or any other department? That is all the cost for that hangar in Gander, is it?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. That is for the first five years and then afterwards it reduces down to $322,000 per annum.

MR. E. BYRNE: Three-hundred and twenty-two thousand per annum. Why the drop after five years? Does that reflect the renovations that were supposed to be required from the -

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Was there any consideration given to building a hangar and building our own building for the amount of money that we, over time - not only for the first ten years. I mean it is a significant amount of coin, obviously, that we are talking about. Was there any consideration given? Was there, within the department, an evaluation done on the cost of constructing as opposed to leasing? What were the recommendations that went to the minister's office on the move with respect to that?

MR. BARRETT: Don can probably elaborate more on that, but we did do an analysis of building our own hangar and the analysis was that it would cost more money to build our own hangar.

MR. E. BYRNE: How is that? Is there an analysis that was done? We are talking about a contract worth $8 million or $9 million, just approximately, over ten years. That is something we are going to be paying out in perpetuity, I would imagine. After the ten-year contract is up then we will have to renew it again. So, it is a significant amount of money. I am just wondering what the analysis was - I guess the weight of evidence, from the department's point of view - that would have said unequivocally: Look, we are in a much better situation to go ahead and lease such an operation as opposed to actually constructing it because if we construct it, it is going to cost us more over time as opposed to the lease of less over time. That, I guess, in terms of being a layperson when it comes to this stuff, is a question that pops to mind anyway.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. There was an analysis done and over the period of time it is cheaper to lease than it would be for (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: What would it cost us to construct it, minister, a hangar that size?

MR. BARRETT: I am trying to remember what the details are now.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am told we could have done it for $3.5 million to $4 million.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MR. E. BYRNE: That is what I was told. We could have built our own hangar out there for $3.5 million to $4 million with all the services out there. It sounds pretty cheap to me.

MR. BARRETT: No, I do not think so.

MR. E. BYRNE: Because some of these hangars are in the vicinity of $10 million, $11 million, $12 million, $13 million and -

MR. BARRETT: Yes, I could get the details -

MR. E. BYRNE: Sure, if you would not mind.

MR. BARRETT: - (inaudible) if you wanted to in terms of what the estimate would be to build a new hangar and what the cost would be.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, just any of the analysis or the breakdown in terms of what led the department to conclude that it would have been far better off in terms of leasing as opposed to - and that is legitimate, government leases everywhere. That is just a question I ask.

In dealing with a - while there is no tender; I mean there are times when they have no other choice but not to call a tender. In this case there were no other options available to the department in terms of deciding on this particular hangar at this particular - that was the only choice that was available. Were there other sites looked at or was this it? In terms of being able to accommodate the service that was provided.

MR. BARRETT: I think there was another location out there but it was not suitable for what we - it is a fairly big facility because we do -

MR. E. BYRNE: I have seen it. I have been out there. It is a big facility.

MR. BARRETT: Because we do the maintenance on the water bombers and all that sort of stuff. So it is a fairly big facility. I think everything else out there did not meet the specifications that was required, and it probably would have cost a lot more money.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is always a consideration today. What was the total cost to the move for air services? Has it been calculated yet, in terms of the total cost to move? Factoring in employee moves, the lease, transportation in terms of moving the entire service to Gander. I want to be clear with you. I am not coming down on either side by saying that it should have or should not have been done. I mean, this is an estimates procedure. I am just wondering, has the department done a final analysis of what the cost of the relocation move for air services from here to Gander has been?

MR. BARRETT: I do not think we have the final costs yet, but I would imagine we are very close to being - establishing that figure soon.

MR. E. BYRNE: What are we talking about? Talk to me. I am not going to hold you to it. Are we talking $10 million, $9 million, $11 million, $5 million, $4 million? What are we talking about?

MR. BARRETT: I guess the move itself, in terms of the figure, is $208,600 in terms of the one-time cost to move it. Then the lease space would be -

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, on top of that.

MR. BARRETT: It would be on top of that. Then you look at the lease for the hanger, and that sort of thing. We can give you that detail if you want.

MR. E. BYRNE: Sure, if you wouldn't mind.

On another topic, I believe it was 1998 or 1999, one or the other, I think it was 1998, former Minister Woodford was in the department at the time when the management of the Immigration Investment Fund by the Auditor General was questioned. A number of questions were on it - and some of the people in the department may have been aware of it at the time. Is the department still involved with that program right now, in terms of the Immigration Investment Fund, in any way, shape or form?

MR. BARRETT: Actually, the hospital in Fogo was going to be built under the Immigrant Investor Fund. Of course, the prices came in too high in terms of the money that was allocated in that particular fund. Then the government made the decision that we would finance the Fogo hospital under regular capital works programs and not the investor fund.

MR. E. BYRNE: There are no other buildings being considered right now that the department is involved with, or government is involved with, dealing with the Immigration Investment Fund for capital works - building the construction of infrastructure in any regions of the Province?

MR. BARRETT: Well, the Bonne Bay Hospital was built that way.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, I understand that. I am talking about any new construction that may be considered through that fund right now.

There were a number of questions right across the country, not just here, in terms of the - there is a new concept, I suppose. The government has no plans at the moment to construct other buildings, either that you are aware of and your department would be aware of, with respect to the Immigration Investment Fund and the construction of other public infrastructure around the Province?

MR. BARRETT: The one other thing that was added on by the Department of Education is that the new school in Lawn, I think, is being built under the Immigrant Investor Fund.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is projected. Is there one planned for Burgeo as well?

MR. BARRETT: I do not think that one is under (inaudible). That would be under the regular school construction program.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay, fair enough.

Another issue -

MR. BARRETT: The fund itself is administered by the Department of Finance and not (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, I understand. I mean, you are connected to the line department because of the process dealing with the construction of public infrastructure, public tendering, all that sort of stuff. You would have to be in the loop on it, that's for sure.

Was it the department or the federal government that began discussions dealing with the notion of the Province assuming all responsibility and control over the federal wharves in the Province?

MR. BARRETT: When the federal government was talking they started talking downloading airports and these sort of facilities. It was the federal government that first approached the department.

MR. E. BYRNE: Did they have a specific number in mind? Did the department look at it seriously in terms of - did you respond with a proposal after they approached you?

MR. BARRETT: Well, it took a fair amount of work for us to do an analysis of each port in terms of the environmental thing. We had some concerns about the environmental thing and then yes, we did go back with a figure. I think it was something like $400 million.

MR. E. BYRNE: How many ports in the Province right now do the federal government have a constitutional responsibility and obligation to maintain?

MR. BARRETT: Twenty-one.

MR. E. BYRNE: Twenty-one. So, in terms of the federal government, they initiated the discussions about it. You responded, on behalf of government, indicating that you would be interested in taking them over at a cost of $400 million?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is an interesting public policy discussion because once that $400 million, if it were to come to pass, I do not know if it is or not - but why would we consider, given the - certainly the last decade of downloading by the federal government in any number of areas. Why would we begin to consider accepting - given the state of our own financial health as a Province - what is a constitutional obligation at the moment by the federal government to maintain all of those ports for a price tag of $400 million, knowing that it would be a significant fund on which you could draw from as government? I understand that, but at some point that money is not going to be there. The question then would arise: Who is going to maintain them then? Would we have the financial ability to maintain them? Why was there consideration given to that at all, as opposed to saying: Look, we are not interested. It is your obligation. You have downloaded enough responsibilities, financial and otherwise, on the provinces. We are not in a position to even consider this because of the relationship that we have as a Province right now with you. Why was there consideration even given to responding to such a request?

MR. BARRETT: Well, I think one of the problems in some of these ports - I guess the people within the communities themselves, they see the federal government there but they are not really doing very much work with these particular ports. The federal government, I guess, is looking at it more in terms of it is there as a service but the economic development groups in Corner Brook and various other things look at it and say: I think we have a great asset here but nobody is out marketing it. If it was under the local control then we may be able to attract more business within the community and more activity within the community. I guess that is what the department was looking at, but we were not prepared to take them over at any cost. That was the minimum that we were looking at, which would have done the improvements to the facilities and then maintain them for a long period of time.

MR. E. BYRNE: Are those discussions completed? Are they over or are they still ongoing?

MR. BARRETT: No, they are finished.

MR. E. BYRNE: They are done. So, you have received a response which said they are not interested with $400 million, basically?

MR. BARRETT: Well, the thing about it is - I think that is the reason it is over, because our amount, included in there, was exorbitant in terms of what they thought they should be paying us, but we are not prepared to sign off on anything any less than that.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

That is all I had, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mary Hodder.

MS M. HODDER: I have a couple of questions. I was just wondering, minister, if you could tell us what the focus of this years' provincial roads program is? How does the minister decide which (inaudible) or projects receive funding and which ones do not?

MR. BARRETT: Last year, and I guess this year, what we tried to do was to do a balance between - as you are well aware, we have a lot of communities in Newfoundland that still have gravel roads within the community itself. The main road in the community itself is still a gravel road. You have a few in your constituency, and on the Baie Verte Peninsula, in Bonavista South and in a few of the other areas. There are some roads within the communities which, from a cost effective point of view, we put calcium chloride on. Last year the department did a fair amount of these roads within communities that had gravel roads. Then, of course, there is a program that - we have areas where the asphalt has been laid for twenty-five or thirty years. So there is a list of these that we need to do. The list is prepared by the regional offices. Also, I write every MHA, all forty-eight MHAs, to ask them for their input. That is put in the mix and then we decide on what the priorities should be.

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Minister.

CHAIR: Randy.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

Subhead 4.2.03.06. -

MR. BARRETT: 4.2.03., Marine Services?

MR. COLLINS: Yes, Purchased Services. You had budgeted $14.7 million. Actually, you revised at $13 million, and the estimates for this year are $13.8 million. Could you tell me what these numbers are comprised of?

MR. BARRETT: Because it was down?

MR. COLLINS: Yes, or what does that Purchased Services include?

MR. BARRETT: The reason it is down is because we deferred the refit work on the MV Sir Robert Bond. That is being tendered now, in 2003. That is why it is there. That is what it is, it is Purchased Services in terms of refits on vessels and all that sort of stuff.

MR. COLLINS: The MV Sir Robert Bond, you say that is being done now?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. John, can give you more detail.

MR. BAKER: It went down from $14.7 million to $13 million. Some of the reasons for that: out of that Purchased Services our contract prices are paid as well for the chartered vessels and also our refits. During a period of time last fall the motor vessel MV NADA was out of service for approximately six weeks, therefore we saved on contractual payments there. Plus, the refit of the MV Sir Robert Bond and the MV Northern Ranger, on our survey items, were not required to do as much work as we anticipated when the surveys came in. This is why it was down. This year we are back up again so much because of the - of course we had to allow for the MV NADA to be back into service again.

MR. COLLINS: The total for Coastal Labrador Ferry Operations is estimated to be at $18.5 million. All of this money is fully recoverable from the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: I am just wondering where that money will come from in future years?

MR. BARRETT: It will come out of the general revenue of the Province.

MR. COLLINS: In addition to the road work?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but of course the debt figure may change too in that we are revising the marine services in Labrador. The opening of the Trans-Labrador Highway will reduce some of these costs.

MR. COLLINS: For some portions?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, because this is the last year of the MV Sir Robert Bond and the MV Northern Ranger.

MR. COLLINS: Yes.

Subhead 4.3.02.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 4.3.02?

MR. COLLINS: Yes, it is just a general question. Could someone tell me what the actual cost is of operating the air ambulance service alone? I know you have other aircraft in the government fleet but for the air ambulance service alone in the Province, what would be the cost of operating that on an annual basis?

MR. BARRETT: It is roughly $1.5 million. Within that we have operating grants too. The Grenfell Health Services is $1.58 million and the Labrador Health Care Board is $1.29 million. That would be under Grants and Subsidies.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

I do not have anything else at this time.

CHAIR: Yvonne Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I guess I have a couple of questions.

The last couple of years the government has invested a great deal of money into Labrador, into highway construction, and I can tell you first-hand, Minister, that this has made a significant difference in transportation on the Coast of Labrador in particular, and it certainly has allowed us to have much more economical development of our industry, and for that we are very grateful.

Recently, government has committed to build the Phase III of the Trans Labrador Highway, from Goose Bay to Cartwright. We see this as a very fundamental piece of the highway network in Labrador and continue to stress the importance of having it done sooner rather than later.

I am wondering if you can give us an update this morning on what the status of the environmental assessment process is, as it relates to that piece of highway.

MR. BARRETT: We have done a lot of the preliminary work. As you know, last year, after the Budget came down, we did a Special Warrant and obtained $1 million to do the environmental assessment on Phase III. At this stage we have commissioned studies on the wildlife. Recently, you saw an advertisement in the paper to do the wildlife studies that are required to be done as part of the environmental assessment. I think we have registered the documents and we are waiting for the environment to come back to us in terms of where to proceed from here, whether we have to do a panel or what we have to do.

We are very, very pleased. There was an agreement signed with the Innu on it too, in terms of facilitating the whole environmental assessment. We are quite pleased at this stage in terms of the progress and if we keep up with this pace we should not have any problem in terms of starting the construction next spring.

MS JONES: Good. I am very pleased to hear that. Obviously, the environmental piece is of great concern to all of us and we want to ensure that it is done properly, but also that it is done within the next year, most definitely.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MS JONES: My other question is with regard to the Vessel Replacement Program. Is there a program or plan to deal with the aging vessels that we have operating within our system within the Province?

MR. BARRETT: Actually, as I indicated in my opening comments, we have the money allocated to do the canonization of the Hull 100. It is anticipated that once that vessel is completed we will probably be utilizing that one on the Little Bay Islands run. In addition to that, the government is right now reviewing, we have done a fair amount of work, and I would say that probably by late fall we will be announcing a more comprehensive program in terms of the Vessel Replacement Program. The first step was to finish the Hull 100 and we have already identified that Little Bay Islands is probably the run where that will be. You know, the Greenbay Transport needs to be replaced, and the Inch Arran is the one for Little Bay Islands. Of course, we are hoping that the Hull 100 will replace that one. There are a few other vessels that we hopefully will be prepared to make some announcements on in the fall.

MS JONES: Okay. So, that is the plan that is basically being worked on right now and you will have full disclosure then

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MS JONES: You said you just put a second vessel on the Bell Island service. You have to forgive me because I do not really understand the configuration there, but was there always just one ship there or was there a two-ship service for part of the year? I was wondering.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, there were two ships there for part of the year and what we have decided to do, with the increased traffic and what is happening on Bell Island in terms of tourism, is to put two vessels on all year around rather than take the vessel off at a certain -

John can even elaborate a little bit more on it for you, if he would.

MR. BAKER: We have two vessels on the Bell Island service for approximately somewhere around eight months of the year or close to it. Then, as the minister stated, with the increase in traffic and also we needed to be able to schedule more preventative maintenance on the bigger ferry that we have there, the Flanders. So in order to be able to accomplish both, the increase in traffic and be able to get some scheduled maintenance for the Flanders - she is going flat out seven days a week for twelve months of the year except for the refit period - we looked at putting the Beaumont Hamel back in there for the other four to four-and-a-half months of the year. That will allow us to be able to accommodate the extra traffic and also allow us some preventative maintenance for the Flanders and the Beaumont Hamel where we have the two-vessel system there.

MS JONES: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Jack.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just for a point of clarification, I have a question and it relates to the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse Au Clair. Is it not correct that the member is the Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Works, Services?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So, she is not being (inaudible) asking questions to the minister?

CHAIR: We did have that clarified by the Government House Leader, at one point in time, when our committees were structured and that change had occurred. So rather than change the committee structure, Ms Jones who is (inaudible).

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am just curious on the procedures, that is all.

CHAIR: She is only new there, so it is an opportunity for her to get up to scratch as well.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Do you have any more? Ms Yvonne Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you.

Just for the record, I wanted to certainly confirm that the member is right, I am the parliamentary secretary, very recent in my position I might add, and the questions I asked this morning were for information purposes only, certainly not to encourage any debate.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Jack.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we are all hear to ask questions for information purposes only.

Anyway, thank you, I will continue on.

I should have asked this when I was under Minister's Office, and I had a note here. Is there an ODI fund in your department, Organizational Development Initiative?

MR. BARRETT: ODI fund?

MR. JACK BYRNE: This came up in the House of Assembly the other day.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. No, that is budgeted in Treasure Board. If we had some need for it then we would request it through Treasury Board.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So there are no Organizational Development Initiatives in your department?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: The minister is right, it is budgeted in Treasury Board. Last year they transferred $179,000 to our department for training needs.

MR. JACK BYRNE: One hundred and seventy-nine thousand for training needs?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: It gets into the administrative support area of the department.

MR. JACK BYRNE: What individuals or groups would have taken advantage of that $179,000 for training?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: It would be open to anyone in the department who is identified to be trained. We have a training section in our administrative support that would take all the requests and determine whether they fit the criteria.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Could we get a copy of the criteria and a list of the individuals who took advantage of the $179,000 last year?

MR. JOHN BYRNE: Yes, sure.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Back to page 75, under Technical Support Services, 2.2.02.

MR. BARRETT: Page 75?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Page 75 in the Estimates, subhead 2.2.02, Technical Support Services, Purchased Services, 06 there. Budgeted $396,000, spent $410,100 and this year it is $544,300. Why the significant increase from last year to this year and what would those Purchased Services actually be?

MR. BARRETT: Purchased Services, you say, 2.2.02.06?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: The revised is up due to increased building insurance costs. Our building insurance increased by $148,300.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

The next subhead, 2.2.03, Building Utilities and Maintenance, you had budgeted $6,640,200 for Salaries, spent $6,037,600 which is $600,000 less, and this year it is back up to $6,610,600. Why the drop down and why is it necessary to bring it back up when you are looking at the 8 per cent freeze that was suppose to be put on or the 8 per cent cut in all departments?

MR. BARRETT: It was down due to vacant positions and it was used to offset the overrun in 2.2.01.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Also, on page 76, 2.2.06, Alterations - Leased Accommodations, section 06, Purchased Services, budgeted $60,000, up to $86,000 and again $60,000: Why that increase to $86,000? What were those Purchased Services?

MR. BARRETT: Which one was that?

MR. JACK BYRNE: 2.2.06, Alternations - Leased Accommodations, subsection 06, Purchased Services, $60,000 up to $86,000.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. That would have been revised due to increase requirements for alterations to leased premises.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Such as?

MR. BARRETT: Most of that is requests from the individual departments to do renovations.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Would that be renovations, for example, with a new minister being switched around, going into a new office and that office having alterations done?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, and also alterations in terms of moving public servants around to different offices.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I understand when the previous Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs went in, now the Minister of Finance, they made some significant changes to the Minister's Office in Municipal Affairs? Could we get a breakdown of the costs of those changes or renovations when she went there?

MR. BARRETT: In Municipal Affairs?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Municipal Affairs. When the present Minister of Finance became Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, she made some significant changes. Could I get a list of that and how much it cost; those renovations?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: On page 77, Administration, 2.3.01, under Purchased Services, again you had $785,000 budgeted, spent $675,000 which is $110,000 less, and this year it is up to $863,000 which is $100,000 roughly more than we had budgeted for last year. So, why did it decrease and why the significant increase this year?

MR. BARRETT: Well, it was revised down due to savings in the vehicle fleet insurance costs and it is budgeted to increase this year for an anticipated increase in the vehicle insurance rates. So, they were down last year but we expect them to go up this year.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Under 2.3.02, Maintenance of Equipment, which is, "Appropriations provide for equipment maintenance program for Government's vehicle fleet and heavy equipment," under Supplies, you have $8,045,000 budgeted, you spent $9,829,000 which is $1.8 million more. Could you tell me what the increase was for and what those Supplies would be?

MR. BARRETT: Supplies were revised up due to fuel, parts purchases and transfers from the maintenance program. We transfer money around from those accounts. Then there is the other, for fuel and all the other operating costs. So the fuel and parts purchases were up.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Why would they be up so much, though? I mean, that is a 25 per cent increase. Why such a significant increase, really?

MR. BARRETT: Well, I guess when you have such a fleet of equipment like we have it is hard to determine what the parts and the -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: Yes, you realize last winter we had such a bad winter that we had a lot of damage to our equipment.

MR. JACK BYRNE: It was strictly for the heavy equipment, the snowplows and what have you? That is all this money was for?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Our snowplow that winter were going continuously so there were a lot of operating expenses.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Under subhead 2.3.03.07, Heavy Equipment, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, you budgeted $4 million, spent $4 million exactly and you are down to $3.5 million this year. What actually came out of that $4 million?

MR. BARRETT: The $4 million would have been the purchasing of equipment, snowplows and all that sort of thing.

MR. JACK BYRNE: It says Property, Furnishings and Equipment. What about any buildings?

MR. BARRETT: Any buildings? No, only things we would have needed for our depots. As you know, you have furnishings and equipment. We have how many depots around the Province? Fifty or sixty depots around the Province too, so once in a while you do have to buy some furniture or something like that and some equipment to go in the depots themselves.

MR. JACK BYRNE: This is strictly related to the depots, heavy equipment and furnishings in those depots and nothing else?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 78, subhead 3.1.01.04, Supplies, there was $140,000 budgeted, $94,000 spent and $120,000 estimated. Can you give me any explanation of the differences there?

MR. BARRETT: It was reduced down to reduce the requirement for the purchase of engineering and drafting supplies. As you know, on our capital roads program last year we spent $120 million and we are down to $80 million this year.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Page 79, subhead 3.2.03, Improvement and Construction - Provincial Roads, 03, Transportation and Communications, again here you budgeted $150,000, you spent $305,000 and down to $175,000 this year. Why the significant increase?

MR. BARRETT: Which one is this?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Subhead 3.2.03.03, Transportation and Communications. You budgeted $150,000 and you spent $305,000.

I may as well do the three of them together, 03, 04 and 05. Supplies was $80,000 and went up to $160,000; Professional Services, nothing budgeted and you spent $160,000. Can you explain all three of those?

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 3.2.03.05?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Subhead 3.2.03.03, 3.2.03.04 and 3.2.03.05; all three.

MR. BARRETT: The fluctuations are due to the size of the program and the cash flow requirements. The program funding in 2002-2003, the provincial program, was $22 million, which was up over previous years, and the Labrador community roads was $2,600,000, for $24,600,000, and the revenue is revised up because of special warrant funding for additional work on the Labrador. The original funding was $4.5 million and a special warrant for $2.2 million, that was for the EIS and other things that came down after the Budget, that we decided to do after the Budget.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Under 05., Professional Services, that $160,000 - you had no money budgeted - what was that specifically for?

MR. BARRETT: That is to do with the EIS, the hiring of consultants for the EIS, for the Trans-Labrador Highway. I think there were some consultants that we needed to do some bridge work. We did not have the in-house expertise, so there was some bridge work that we had to hire consultants for.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am going to skip out of the subheads for awhile, for a change of pace, and ask a few of the questions that I have prepared here. These may jump around.

With respect to the Professional Services and the Purchased Services contracted or purchased in the last fiscal year, how much of it was not tendered, and why? That might be a very difficult question for you guys to answer, but Professional Services and Purchased Services within your department.

MR. BARRETT: Purchased Services, how much was tendered? I would not be able to tell you right now in terms of -

MR. JACK BYRNE: Can you get that for us?

WITNESS: (Inaudible) tendered.

MR. BARRETT: Everything is tendered.

MR. JACK BYRNE: We know it is not. We know the difference.

MR. BARRETT: Purchased Services?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Purchased Services and Professional Services. Most Professional Services are probably not tendered.

MR. BARRETT: Don can speak to the Professional Services.

MR. OSMOND: The Public Tender Act, of course, requires that Purchased Services, except for certain cases, be publicly tendered; and, where the amounts are below certain thresholds, there are also stipulated purchasing procedures. So, putting it shortly, Professional Services are excluded for the Public Tender Act. Therefore, you would not see, really, any Professional Services having been tendered for.

Purchased Services: all purchases are covered by the act, and if one exceeds certain thresholds in it - $10,000 in the case of services, $20,000 in the case of construction - then one must go to tender. That is why my colleague would have remarked that everything would have been tendered that needed to have been tendered.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to Professional Services themselves again, which do not necessarily be tendered, can the department or someone give us - I do not expect it here now, but - supply us with an account of the Professional Services obtained in last fiscal year, the provider of these services, the expenditure amounts, and whether or not such services - well, they are not tendered anyway. Can you get those three things for us? That is the account showing the Professional Services obtained last year, the provider of the services, and the amount.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, that is no problem.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Does anyone else have questions?

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne?

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, just a quick question.

In terms of Professional Services, there are Treasury Board guidelines, if I am not mistaken, that every department operates under. This has been a subject of some debate in the House and the minister tabled those guidelines recently, the Minister of Justice, and Acting Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development. My understanding, in looking at the guidelines that he provided, is that for any $50,000 amount or under there is no requirement for an RFP or a public tender. Beyond or above the threshold of $50,000, then departments are required - again, I am just seeking clarification more than anything - to either public tender for Professional Services or go to a Request for Proposals where a minimum of three years is supposed to be gotten. Is that how it operates?

MR. BARRETT: In our department if it is a project, for example, to build a school, then the department would appoint the consulting architects, engineers, and what have you, and we have a standard rate of fees that we pay.

MR. E. BYRNE: Your department is different than others, right?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is why I am asking, because it operates (inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: For example, for school construction, we pay certain fees for the site preparation. It is a breakdown of the different fees, and we just select from a list of fifteen or twenty.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay, so the guidelines that the minister tabled, your colleague tabled, on Thursday past, Treasury Board guidelines for the hiring of consultants and use of professional services, those same guidelines do not necessarily apply to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation? Is that what you are saying?

MR. BARRETT: Not necessarily, because regardless of who the consultants were, the fees would be the same.

MR. E. BYRNE: I understand that. That is fair enough, but in terms of the amounts, according to Treasury Board guidelines. I wish I had them with me here, but I don't. I can go from memory fairly accurately, I think. Any amounts above the $50,000 threshold, there is a requirement by Treasury Board - under the guidelines that were instituted in 1985 and revised by Cabinet in 1993, according to what the minister tabled - either a requirement for an RFP, Request for Proposals, or a public tender. But, from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation's point of view, it may be different because you have a list of engineers and consultants who deal with your department all of the time. I am just trying to get it clear in my own mind. You are telling me that whether it is $100,000 or $150,000 or $75,000 or $20,000 or $4.5 million, in terms of picking an engineering or consulting firm that may be required to do work on a new school or hospital or road, or whatever the case may be, that the department is not under the impression it has to request - it might be correct, I do not know - go to an RFP or for public tender, because you have a list of who you need, who the professionals are, and you just go and get it done. Is that how it is done?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. There is a set fee for each -

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, I understand you have a rate. Those are rates decided by industry.

MR. BARRETT: Of course, all of the engineering work on our roads is done in-house.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, I know that.

MR. BARRETT: Our analysis has shown that it is cheaper for us, too. I think we save around 4 per cent to 5 per cent -

MR. E. BYRNE: Oh, I can imagine. I would say more.

MR. BARRETT: - by doing our engineering and our road work in-house. The only time that we go outside, sometimes with some of the bridges we need to go outside for outside expertise; but, on the whole, most of it is done within the department. Of course, we also have engineers within the works section who do some of our preliminary engineering work, in-house.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

CHAIR: Jack.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the federal/provincial cost-shared programs, can I get a list of any federal/provincial cost-shared programs to break down the ratios between the federal and the provincial government, supplied to us? I do not expect you have it at hand here now, but could we have that supplied?

MR. BARRETT: The cost-shared programs?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Any federal/provincial cost-shared programs administered by your department or any department, I suppose.

MR. BARRETT: The only one now is the new ship agreement which is a cost-shared one. The other ones, the Roads for Rail and the regional trunk roads was 100 per cent federal.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay. So, could we have the breakdown of that program you just mentioned? The ratios of (inaudible)?

MR. BARRETT: We are at the end of that particular program now.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Not the Roads for Rail, now; the one you previously said, the ship -

MR. BARRETT: Oh, the ship. We have not signed the agreement on that yet.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay.

MR. BARRETT: That is supposed to be 50 per cent federal, 50 per cent provincial but, actually, the administration and engineering costs had to be borne by the Province so it is more going to be like a 60-40; 60 per cent for provincial and 40 per cent federal.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

This is something the Member for Kilbride was on to, with respect to the properties and the leases of properties by Works, Services and Transportation for government, and government-leased properties. Could we actually get a list of all the properties that are currently leased by government, and whether the lease was tendered or not, and for what purpose the properties are being leased?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. It would take us awhile to do it.

MR. OSMOND: Of course, all of these are reported regularly to the House. It is a requirement of the Public Tender Act that we do so. So, within thirty days of reports being created, if the House is open, then we are required to table those. It is all on public record but, as the minister points out, it will take a little bit of time to put it altogether.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes, they are reported sporadically at different times, but I would assume that you would have a list that should be pretty forthcoming of properties, where they are located, how much space, what purpose, and if they were tendered or just agreements made with individuals or businesses. That is what I would be looking for, the total list.

MR. OSMOND: We can get it but it will take a while to do it.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Some time ago there was some discussion with respect to the Premier's Office charging out expenses to various departments. Have there been any expenses charged to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, the expenses incurred by the Premier's Office or the Executive Council? If so, can we get the amounts?

MR. BARRETT: There has been none, to my knowledge.

MR. JACK BYRNE: There has been none? Thank you.

Now, the vehicles themselves, the Member for Kilbride was on to this also.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MR. JACK BYRNE: The vehicles. There were 22,000 vehicles, I think you said, was it?

MR. BARRETT: Twenty-two hundred.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Twenty-two hundred, yes. I will expect a list of whoever is using these vehicles. Depending on the department, what division, what have you, they could be used by different individuals, but could we get a list of the vehicles that might be utilized by, say, the Premier's Office and the minister, if there are any, and the deputies?

MR. BARRETT: None of our vehicles are being used by ministers.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I know you have an allowance.

MR. BARRETT: None of our vehicles are being used by ministers.

MR. JACK BYRNE: None?

MR. BARRETT: No.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Definitely none?

MR. BARRETT: No.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. BARRETT: The 2,200, that includes the snowploughs, the backhoes, and what have you.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Oh, yes, I know that.

MR. BARRETT: I don't think you would ever see me driving around in one of the backhoes or the -

WITNESS: (Inaudible) the other day.

MR. BARRETT: You saw me going on a grader the other day?

MR. JACK BYRNE: So, there is none used by ministers and/or the Premier's Office?

MR. BARRETT: No, none of our fleet vehicles, and the minister does not use them either.

MR. JACK BYRNE: And there haven't been any in the past year or so?

MR. BARRETT: I have never, ever, used a government vehicle.

MR. JACK BYRNE: You personally. I am not asking personally, but the ministers and the Premier's Office, no vehicles?

MR. BARRETT: Not to my knowledge.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Do you have - the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, I think, was on to this - a completion date definitely set for the Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. BARRETT: It is anticipated, if everything goes well, that it would take six years to finish Phase III of the Trans-Labrador Highway. As you are well aware, you can only start on both ends of the highway; you cannot start in between. One of the limitations of doing that particular highway is that you cannot start in the middle and work from both ends. You have to start in Goose Bay and the other one you have to start in Cartwright, or the Cartwright exit or the turnoff, wherever we are going to start there, so you are limited in terms of how much you can do in any one particular year.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to that $340 million compensation for the (inaudible) to take over the marine freight and passenger services on the Coast, how much has been spent to the end of this fiscal year? Can we get a detailed account of the expenditures of this allocation?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, we can provide that to you.

MR. JACK BYRNE: All of these things that we are asking for, all of these lists and that, what kind of a time frame are we talking for some of this stuff, most of it? Are we saying a week, a month, six months?

MR. BARRETT: Well it depends on how detailed it is going to be. That should be relatively fast in terms of the breakdown. What we have spent in terms of Phase I, Phase II, the breakdown on what we spent on marine services and what we have spent on roads in communities in Labrador, that can be provided.

MR. JACK BYRNE: How much of that fund is left, that $340 million? Does anyone have a handle on that?

MR. BARRETT: Off the top of my head, I cannot say how much is left in it right now but I can get it for you.

MR. JACK BYRNE: The cost of maintaining the marine freight and passenger service on the Coast of Labrador, what has been the cost of doing that annually since you have taken responsibility for it?

MR. BARRETT: It has been roughly about $17 million or $18 million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: About $17 million or $18 million.

MR. BARRETT: We have had some increased costs, as you recall, this year. Because of the ice conditions being favorable, we started the service to Labrador two weeks early, on April 15, and last year, because of ice conditions, we were able to extend it longer into January.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So that $17 million now will have to come out of general revenues, once the fund is gone. The South Coast ferry system, I think, was $50 million. I think it costs $4 million or $5 million a year to operate the South Coast ferry system, does it?

MR. BARRETT: Four point four million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Four point four million, so that is $21 million. Then we have the money that was taken out of Term 29, and there was another one; HST, the money that was taken out of the HST. So, each year now when this is all done, the Province is going to have to come up with these revenues each year that would normally have been there in perpetuity type of thing. That money will now come out of the general revenue? The Province will have to raise that money somehow, through taxes or whatever the case may be, from the taxpayers of the Province. Is that correct?

MR. BARRETT: Well, it would have to go into the mix in terms of providing these services, yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So then, we have a handle on how much money that would be per year for our Budget?

MR. BARRETT: In terms of the Labrador marine services we will be going to public tender within the next few weeks for the new marine services in Labrador, and until the tender comes in on that we will not really know how much it is going to cost, but we anticipate it is going to be less than it is now.

MR. JACK BYRNE: What I am saying though, those four issues I just mentioned, that revenue now will have to come out of general revenue from the Province and have to be raised by the Province. What was there would have come from Ottawa, forever and a day, if we had not agreed to do what we agreed to do.

MR. BARRETT: The other thing, in terms of if we did not have the revenue, at the present time there would have been some other services that would have had to be cut in the Province.

MR. JACK BYRNE: You may be just delaying the inevitable, might you not?

With respect to the Trans Labrador Highway, the money for the completion of Phase III now will have to come from the Province itself. I cannot see you going back to Ottawa and saying: Give us some more money to complete Phase III, when you have taken $97 million from that fund in the first place.

If the Province cannot come up with that money, the real picture, the deficit, is not what is being put forward. So if the Province cannot come up with that money itself to do that - I think you said you had allocated so many million for six years or something.

MR. BARRETT: Seventeen million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Seventeen million, yes.

What will happen to Phase III if the Province cannot come up with that money?

MR. BARRETT: In terms of our Budget projections for the next few years, we do not anticipate any problems coming up with the $17 million for our commitment of the Trans Labrador Highway. You have to also realize that it is $17 million in terms of gross, but in terms of net it is less than that. The $17 million will also generate economic activity which also brings in revenue.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the water bombers, you mentioned earlier that you have ten different types of aircraft and water bombers included in that. Over the past few years - I am not sure about last year - I think it was down in the States you leased one or two of the bombers. Is there any talk of doing that again this year? What kind of money do we normally receive from that rental?

MR. BARRETT: Keith can give you more details on the water bombers.

MR. WHITE: Yes, for at least two years we leased water bombers to the State of North Carolina in the early Spring, March to early May. We did not do it last year and we did not go there this year either. In terms of revenue generated, it was probably $200,000 in revenue for two aircraft over a six-week period.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the new security measures that you have announced here in the government buildings, could you give us any idea what it is going to cost to implement those security measures and when you expect it will be completed? I know they talked about renovations in the main lobby and what have you. I could use a bit more detail on that.

MR. BARRETT: The one-time cost for that will be $340,000. It is a one-time cost in terms of the renovations to move the security stands and that sort of stuff and for the monitoring system for people to get in and out of the building. The ongoing operating costs: I think we have to hire one more security person, so the ongoing operating costs are very minimal.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

That will be completed when?

MR. BARRETT: We are hoping to have that completed by the first of September.

MR. JACK BYRNE: For September. Thank you.

With respect to the public service strike last year, did the government incur any extraordinary costs that would not have been incurred if you had not had the strike?

MR. BARRETT: To my knowledge, there weren't any. When the strike was on, I don't think we rented any more equipment than we would normally do. In negotiations with the union, they permitted us to go out and hire private contractors to do some work when we had that major snowstorm, but it was limited in terms of what we would normally do if we had our regular staff on.

MR. JACK BYRNE: How about overtime for employees? Where the positions were moved around, some people working here in the building probably ended up in at one of the hospitals and that type of thing, especially the administration, you know, the supervisors and directors and those types of people. What was that cost?

MR. BARRETT: I think there has been a policy in place since - I should know because I was involved in it - 1985. I think it was 1985. At one time, those of us who worked in the public service who were in management - I remember the major strike that was on at the Waterford Hospital at the time. I worked with the Department of Education and I worked down there for - I do not know - a month on weekends. At that time we volunteered our services, except for the RNC. They got paid but all the other public servants did it on a volunteer basis. I think it was in 1985 that the government of the day decided that management people would be paid time-and-a-half for any time that would be worked during a work stoppage, and that policy has been on the go ever since.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So, the answer is, you can actually get a figure of how much extra it cost?

MR. BARRETT: Well, each department would have been responsible for that and I think the money would have come out of each individual department. I do not think we took people from any other departments, it was just our own management people.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you..

With respect to MV Apollo: Can the minister give us any idea how much the government and the department have spent for infrastructure to accommodate the MV Apollo? There was quite a controversy at the time, of course, with respect to her not being suitable for the docking in that area on both sides. How much extra has that cost?

MR. BARRETT: The St. Barbe ferry terminal, the cost down there has been $1.6 million, but that was not just an expenditure to accommodate the MV Apollo. It was work that needed to be done on the wharf anyway.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

That $1.6 million, that was it, the total amount?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: That was the changes or the upgrading of the docking itself and the facility?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: The MV Apollo itself: Is that boat now being fully utilized, that vessel, with respect to accommodations, the rooms and what have you?

MR. BARRETT: John can probably -

MR. BAKER: I did not get all of your question.

MR. JACK BYRNE: The MV Apollo, the vessel itself: Is that being fully utilized? The vehicle part of it, with respect to the unloading of the vehicles, is probably being fully accommodated but I see her docked a lot. The vessel itself, with respect to the passengers, the rooms and all of that, are all of those rooms being utilized at this point in time or are there any areas of that vessel still blocked off and not being used?

MR. BAKER: Of course, the rooms, the accommodations, are not being used on the vessel. They were not required in the spec, as a matter of fact. The vehicle deck at times has been filled to capacity. With regard to the passenger capacity, of course we have a certificate on it for 240 passengers. She is quite capable of taking more, but if the need should require that, if the traffic demands warrant it, we can increase that. The only thing is we only asked for 240 passengers because with 240 passengers you are able to keep your crew accompaniment down and keep your costs down. We are okay on that yet, but if need be we have ample space there to be able to put on extra runs within the twelve-hour day. The only extra that we would pay on that would be the extra fuel.

MR. JACK BYRNE: The rooms themselves, the berths I suppose you would call them, how many are actually in that vessel?

MR. BAKER: I could not tell you right off because they are of no interest to us, the berths and the overnight accommodations, because we did not ask for that and we do not require it.

MR. JACK BYRNE: It has been explained to me - and why I ask this question is because it is of interest to me, I will tell you, because of the size of the vessel. She is being leased, I would imagine, back and forth. I am asking the question here now and I want to get it straight. It has been explained to me, if there is a vessel and it is a certain length you have to have a certain amount of staff on that vessel because of regulations by the federal government. By having extra staff on that, the owners/operators, of course, would then be in a position to require that the government pay them more money because of the extra staff, if that vessel is more than is required for the run. So, is there any truth to any of those statements?

MR. BAKER: Well, the only extra crew required for the size of the vessel - we ask for a particular size vessel and it normally goes by your passenger accompaniment certificate. There is a certain crew requirement for that. We asked for a certain passenger certificate and we got that.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So are you saying that it depends? If you have a vessel that can take 1,000 people and she is a certain length, if you put out the tender to the provincial government and ask for 240, then the amount of staff on that vessel is geared to 240 but not what the vessel is capable of doing?

MR. BAKER: Of course, if the lengths were to the extreme, but with the size of the vessel that is there, what we went to tender for and what we got compared to the competitive bids that came in, with that one and the one running very close to it, the bids were very close over a four-year period. Therefore, we feel we got the vessel with the passenger complement that we asked for and also with the metered lanes that we asked for. With the cost, that one with regards to the competition that was out there coming in and competing with that one, we got a fair price.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Again, with respect to the federal regulations, with respect to the size of the vessel and the amount of staff that are required on a vessel of a certain length, a certain power, a certain size motor, whatever the case may be, depending on the size of the vessel and the passengers that it can take, it can require extra staff. That vessel is probably four stories high, I suppose. She seems to have about three or four berthing sections, one on top of the other type of thing. If you had it down to 240, which is what you needed, wanted, what you asked for, is the government now paying more money because she is capable of taking more passengers?

MR. BAKER: The government would pay more money if, like I said, it was to the extreme. Yes, a vessel, depending on the size of it, would probably need more crew there for firefighting and whatever. We asked for a certain passenger certificate and we got a vessel. With the Public Tender Act that we had gone through, the vessel competing with that one was very minimal over the four-year tendered contract.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to regionalization of government services over the past year or two, how much did the government and the department incur in expenses that would not have been incurred if the regionalization program had not been announced? Will you itemize those accounts, because when it first started out I think it was $3 million, then the government admitted to $6 million and I think it up to $12 million or something now?

WITNESS: It is $22 or $23 million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Now it is $22 or $23 million which is what the unions were saying it was going to be in the first place and what we, on this side of the House, were anticipating, that it would be up in the $20 or $30 millions. Can you give us a handle on what it actually has cost, all inclusive. You can pretty well rationalize anything, I suppose, but is the figure in the $20 or $30 millions really more realistic now than the original $6 million?

MR. BARRETT: The only figures I would have would be for the regionalization part of our department. The other figures, of course, would have to be provided by Treasury Board or, I think, the Department of Industry, Trade and Rural Renewal which was the one that was coordinating this effort.

All I would have would be what it costs in terms of our department in terms of regionalization. The overall question would have to be directed to somebody else other than this department.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the regionalization of air services, can the department provide a - and we have touched on this area - copy of the lease signed with General Aviation Terminal Inc. for Hangar 22?

We talked about the amounts earlier today, $672,000 a year for the first five years. When I looked at the figures that were thrown around here today, I remember asking questions on this.

WITNESS: What is the option?

MR. JACK BYRNE: The option? I was under the impression it was going to be anywhere from $15 to $20 million for twenty years.

So, could we get a copy of the agreement?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I need to check with our solicitor to see if we normally would release it because it is a lease with a business. I do not know if we can provide that kind of detail.

MR. JACK BYRNE: It is taxpayers' dollars.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but I do not know what the policy is with regard to all of our leases. You are zeroing in on this one, but it is the policy -

MR. JACK BYRNE: When I asked for the copies earlier of the leases of the premises across the Province, buildings and what have you -

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but what I am saying is that we can give you the figures on what we pay to each person in terms of leases, but in terms of the detailed lease itself, in terms of the lease that was signed, I need to check with our solicitor on that. I cannot answer it one way or the other right now. That is sort of a business arrangement and I am not too sure. The cost itself, there is no problem in releasing that to the public.

MR. JACK BYRNE: With respect to Hangar 21, that is where the water bombers are stored if I am not mistaken. Would we be able to get a copy of the lease signed with Transport Canada which is two governments? Can anybody tell me now how much we are paying for the lease of this building?

MR. BARRETT: Do you mean the one at Torbay Airport?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Hangar 21.

MR. BARRETT: In Gander?

Do you know roughly?

MR. WHITE: From memory, no. I would have to look it up. I am sorry.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I would like to get a handle on that, how much we are paying out there on that building, because that is directly related, of course, to the costs of relocating isn't it?

MR. WHITE: No, we always had Hangar 21 in Gander. It was cold storage. Essentially it is a cold storage hangar where we just kept the aircraft in out of the elements when they were not on maintenance or in use otherwise.

MR. JACK BYRNE: That hangar: Have there been any changes, extra space taken in, or any renovations made to that to accommodate any of these aircraft over the past year or two years?

MR. BAKER: No, it was cold storage for water bombers. There is a small area that Forestry used to repair fire hoses and we have a small - we had, for a number of years, a small lounge, a stand-by lounge for our water bomber pilots that are on station in Gander. Forestry has a small area where they store the products that they use. There is a foam product that is added to the water in the water bombers. They store those sorts of things there in this Hangar 21, but it is a cold storage facility. There has been no change in its use for quite a number of years.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the ferry vessels in the Province, can you provide the cost of maintaining each of these vessels in the 2001-2002 fiscal year? Because when you look at the exemptions that are put forward here in the House, it seems to be that there are a lot of renovations. For example, the Inch Arran, I think, had the motor repaired eight times and now you are talking about giving them a new motor and what have you. Can we get a breakdown of what the cost of maintaining each vessel is with respect to refit, maintenance, what have you, of the vessels?

MR. BARRETT: No problem. I will have to hire about 100 people tomorrow.

MR. JACK BYRNE: No, you have all that at your fingertips. I know how well organized you guys are, and how efficient and effective.

MR. BARRETT: I will have to hire about 100 people after today.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Well, that is my job to create work.

MR. BARRETT: Is it?

MR. JACK BYRNE: With respect to Hull 100; when you say Hull 100, you are referring to the Ahelaid?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay. There are talks here about the vessel replacement policy. We had a private member's resolution that when through the House here some time ago that was fully supported by government.

We know, I think, the purchase price, but can you tell us how much has actually been spent on that vessel to date? The purchase price? What has been spent on the upgrading? How much more is going to be spent on the Ahelaid? When she is going to be operational? I have heard rumors that that vessel is not the vessel that was actually purchased. We hear all kinds of stories about that vessel. I just want to find out, basically, how much you paid for her? How much has been spent on it so far to upgrade it to Canadian standards? How much more is going to be spent on it, and when she is going to be operational?

MR. BARRETT: To date, the purchase and what we have done on the vessel is roughly $4.1 million. We anticipate that the vessel will be in operation for about $7 million total in expenditure.

MR. JACK BYRNE: When? This fall?

MR. BARRETT: We anticipate that we will probably be calling tenders within the next three or four weeks.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) service for early next spring.

MR. BARRETT: Early next spring.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Next spring.

With respect to the changes to the Public Tender Act that went to (inaudible) just before Christmas on the vessels with respect to purchasing or leasing vessels. Do you have any vessels in mind that you will be looking at now to lease or purchase at this point in time without going to tender?

MR. BARRETT: No, unless it was an emergency for a lease which we would need a vessel for one or two weeks or something like that, but in terms of leasing or purchasing a vessel without going through public tender, no, we would not be doing that. The only way it would be is if we needed a vessel - for example, the Inch Arran or one of the other ones broke down, the Sound of Islay broke down and we did not have a vessel and we had to go out tomorrow for example to provide that service, then we would go out and do it under that act. The normal run of the mill, leasing or purchasing, we would not be doing an exemption under the Public Tender Act. We would go to public tender.

MR. JACK BYRNE: There has been no discussion. Any that are in the system now, the leased vessels, there is no discussions or talks or ideas of converting any of those leases to purchases or anything of that nature?

MR. BARRETT: No.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the Bell Island ferry and the announcement that you made last week on the two vessels year-round: Has that been allocated in the subheads this year, in the Estimates anywhere?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Where would that be?

MR. BARRETT: That is in the normal operation of the vessels, under the current account of the operation of the vessels.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Can you give me the subhead there that that is under?

MR. BARRETT: It is under three or four different subheads.

MR. BAKER: It would be under 4.2.02. for the Salaries, and it would also be there under 04. for fuel.

MR. JACK BYRNE: 4.2.02., under Salaries, $8.4 million and revised $8.6 million. Under Ferry Operations, 4.2.02., Salaries, there is less allocated this year than there was last year. There was actually $300,000 less spent.

MR. BAKER: Last year we used the swing vessels more then was anticipated, so that drove up the cost. Now we figure that we will not need them as much this year. This is why we are able to drop it off to $8.3 million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: What was the other section you said?

MR. BAKER: 4.2.02.01.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes, I know that. Didn't you say another section after that?

MR. BAKER: Yes, for fuel.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Which one was that?

MR. BAKER: Under the same one, 4.2.02.04.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Supplies; there is $472,000 less than what was spent last year. Both vessels are going year-round now and you will be spending less money on fuel?

MR. BAKER: What we are saying is that the two swing vessels were going just about year-round and that is what drove up our costs there as well. Also, the price of fuel was up substantially as well.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. BAKER: I would like to add as well that the Beaumont Hamel, like I said, was only about three-and-a-half to four months when she was not in the budget previously to that because some of the time when she was not in the Bell Island service she would be out replacing other vessels for refit. So it is not like it went from scratch and built up a new budget to replace it, to put the Beaumont Hamel into Bell Island for those four months.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. BARRETT: We would anticipate that we would, because of going with the two-vessel system, as Mr. Baker indicated, that we will be able to do more preventative maintenance with our crew which will probably reduce some of our costs in terms of maintaining the vessel. So that was calculated in terms of providing this two-vessel service.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

Sometime ago, I think it was probably before Christmas, I wrote a letter to you requesting information under the Freedom of Information concerning capital works over the past two or three years and they responded back saying you were going to charge x amount of dollars for that information. I brought it up in the House of Assembly and the Premier stated that, you know, request the information because if you request it under the Freedom of Information the act automatically kicks in and he has to charge for it. Immediately following that statement, of course, I wrote requesting information, not under the Freedom of Information because he said it would be forthcoming; not a problem. That was some time ago. I am just wondering when I might expect to get that information?

MR. BARRETT: You requested it under the Freedom of Information. You were correct in that once you request it then there is a charge for it. I think what the Premier meant was that there was a provision within the House of Assembly where you could put the question on the Order Paper as a written question. We have your request right now and we will be able to give you some of the information pretty soon but some of the detailed information is going to take us some time to do it.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Well, the information that was sent to me, the number of hours, was very specific about how much time. It was only going to take a couple of days to get the information together in the letter that was given to me from the deputy minister at that time, I think it was. I am not sure, the deputy or the ADM. It was only a couple of days work to get that information together. I was hoping to get the information, certainly, before the House closed. That was the impression that the Premier left me with, that is for sure, that day. I would request that you work on that, and I would appreciate it if you could get it as soon as you can.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Now, with respect to the hours worked in the depots. I had a number of calls this winter. Actually, I was going to bring it up in the House but I didn't yet. I was trying to check it out. With respect to the operations of the snowplows and the hours that they are on, I had calls from the West Coast saying that, I think, between 10 o'clock and 4 o'clock plows do not go on the roads anymore. Now the hours, I stand to be corrected. It could be 1l o'clock and 3 o'clock but there are certain periods of time now that the plows are not on the roads in the nights, regardless of the weather, where they were on the roads before. Can you either confirm that or correct the hours for me, and why would that be the case?

MR. BARRETT: That is the normal hours but if there is a snowstorm or if there is bad weather and they are required to be on the road, then they would be on the road. But, I mean -

MR. JACK BYRNE: That is not the information that has been given to me by people who work in these depots.

MR. BARRETT: Well, the information is that - I travel on those roads a lot and I have been there at midnight and there has been equipment on, depending on the conditions; but if it is a bad snowstorm and you cannot do anything with it and the crew needs to have rest, then they will take them off the road. Sometimes they are taken off the road because there is a blinding snowstorm and they are not accomplishing anything by being on there.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am not talking about blinding snowstorms. The impression I am getting now is that the maintenance and the operations have been severely cut back, that the operations which were normally done in the past - and I am thinking about people who would work night shift, you know, nurses who are going to work at probably midnight. I do not know their shifts, but anybody - different groups, ambulances, whatever the case may be - who have to respond. The hours that were there before for snow clearing and because of the cutbacks in funding this year, that normal operations are not being done.

MR. BARRETT: Actually, within our department we have received very, very few complaints about the roads not being maintained or not done. If the employees are saying that, then the general public are not saying it. As a matter of fact, in a lot of cases we get letters of compliments and congratulations on the job that we are doing.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I suggest that some morning now in the fall or maybe even the spring, that you leave Pouch Cove and drive to St. John's and make that statement because, I mean, Piperstock Hill in Torbay, for example, is always really bad. From the north side of Torbay, around Gallows Cove Pond to Pouch Cove, the amount of salt and sand that is put on the road, I get calls on it every time there is a bit of quick freezing or three or four inches of snow, whatever the case may be, with complaints all the time. I contact White Hills all the time and it is just not right.

MR. BARRETT: The point is, when you get a sudden change of temperature, snow changing to rain, freezing rain and what have you, the equipment cannot be everywhere. Last fall, I guess, and part of the winter this year, we had a terrible winter because -

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am talking about this winter.

MR. BARRETT: - we had more freezing and thawing last fall. You have a plow operator or a sander or a person who is salting, and he is responsible for a certain section of the road. He cannot be everywhere. When there are sudden temperature changes, it takes a while for them to get out there and spread the salt and the sand. As Wince and Ellis Coles said: It's only God who can be everywhere. I don't think we can be everywhere.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

I just have one more question here and then I will go to the subheads; just one more. This is something that the Member for Kilbride brought up beforehand, and that is the federal wharfs and sites that the Province is looking at for $400 million. You can tell me right here and now that there are no negotiations within the department, with the federal government, to look at that, not ongoing at all, nothing.

MR. BARRETT: No, they came to us and we went back with a proposal. It was too high and that is it. As far as I know, the book is closed on it.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

I am okay for awhile.

Ed?

MR. JOYCE: Mr. Chair, can I just have one word?

CHAIR: You have to take your turn.

MR. JOYCE: It is just on Mr. Byrne's comments about the roads on the West Coast. Just from my dealings on the West Coast, as someone who is out there on a regular basis, the roads are done well. Just to give you a good example, I will use the Bay of Islands as an example. On the South Shore, which is probably about fifty kilometers going down, there is what they call Marine Drive, which is operated by the city, and there is also O'Connell Drive, which is operated by Works, Services and Transportation. The majority of residents will use O'Connell Drive - highways does that portion of the road - because it is done much better.

I can assure Mr. Byrne that, in my dealings on the West Coast, the staff on the West Coast who are on a twenty-four hour call basis do a good job. If there is snow and if there is a need to be or not be on the road, from my travelling the whole of the West Coast and in rural Newfoundland, that is not true. Your staff is doing a good job to keep the roads clean and safe.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Ed Byrne.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, under the section dealing with improvement and construction of provincial roads, you have allotted $22 million. How many requests does your department have dollar-wise? There must be upwards of $250 million to $300 million worth of requests, are there, from municipalities and ...?

MR. BARRETT: In the presentation, the proposal that I did to Collenette, what is needed in this Province over the next ten year period is $978 million to bring our infrastructure up to a respectable standard. That is the figure that is required, and that is for the regional trunk roads and the Trans-Canada Highway. For a number of years it was down to $12 million or $13 million. In the last couple of years we have gotten it up to - you know, there is $20 million and $2 million for culverts and that sort of thing. The requests that come in, you would be up to (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: How are those negotiations going with the federal government in terms of the possibility of such an agreement? Other provinces must be experiencing similar circumstances, are they, in the country, particularly? Or, are we an anomaly in that sense? Are there other provinces who are in similar circumstances to what we are, from your discussions with other ministers or respective ministries across the country?

MR. BARRETT: Every province in the country is in the same kind of situation in terms of they need a major influx of money in terms of the roads within the provinces, you know, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Alberta, I guess, is one of the provinces that does have money but they are still requesting money from the federal government in terms of the national roads program. Saskatchewan, Manitoba, B.C., it doesn't matter.

One of the problems in Canada in terms of our infrastructure in the roads is the deteriorating, and I think the federal government is going to have to recognize that pretty soon. In the United States, for example, roads is a regular budget item. The federal government in the States allocate, I think, $328 billion a year -

MR. E. BYRNE: It would be nice, wouldn't it?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

- for roads in the interstate highways and that sort of stuff, but they consider it to be a normal budget item like health, defence, and what have you. Canada has never, ever recognized that. All it has ever been is, every now and then they come out with -

MR. E. BYRNE: A transportation initiative.

MR. BARRETT: - a transportation initiative. What the provincial ministers are saying to the federal government is that there should be so much - because they are collecting the tax on gasoline -

MR. E. BYRNE: Sure, they are.

MR. BARRETT: - they should be putting some of that money back into the infrastructure, to maintain the infrastructure in the country. Our tax on gasoline goes for not only construction of roads but it also goes in terms of maintaining roads and plowing roads and all that sort of stuff. The federal government is not involved in any kind of operation of our transportation system. The least they can do is have a budget line in terms of providing money for infrastructure.

MR. E. BYRNE: Realistically, what is your sense, and the officials' sense, and other ministries in the country's sense, of when and if the federal government would respond to such presentations and proposals, presentations made? Are we hearing that it is likely then in the next year or two, two to three years, that there will be such an initiative, maybe not all of what we want, but there will be something there?

MR. BARRETT: It is interesting, you know.

MR. E. BYRNE: There is an industry at stake here too. You understand that. The officials would as well. The Roads for Rail Agreement is essentially over. That has been able to provide for significant improvements, obviously, in the building of new roads in particular. As that is nearing completion, the industry itself, that sort of critical mass that we have been able to at least maintain, certainly that is in jeopardy. You speak to the contractors in the Province, and large outfits who are into this business, people are worried, obviously. That has a negative impact spiraling-wise that way in terms of the provincial economy. It contributes significantly to the economy from a seasonal aspect of our economy. I will just leave it at that in terms of: Do you have any sense at all that this is about to happen?

MR. BARRETT: I have only been at one federal/provincial conference of ministers, and unfortunately that took place the week after September 11. The focus in the country then was on security, and the federal minister was wrapped up in what was happening in terms of the security, so we didn't get into much detailed discussion, but it is an issue for all of the provincial ministers across the country.

If you look at opinion polls - this is one thing I do not understand. If you travel throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, one of the big issues in communities and what have you - and we see it by petitions here in the House -

MR. E. BYRNE: Roads.

MR. BARRETT: - is roads.

MR. E. BYRNE: No question about it.

MR. BARRETT: If you ask Canadians across the country what is the number one priority, very seldom do roads ever appear, and transportation appear, on a public opinion poll.

As you know, governments like the federal government look at these things. Health care, education, and all of the other things that appear, appear on the opinion that 80 per cent of the people in Canada are concerned about the health care but probably 1 per cent is concerned about transportation, and it is a service that all of us use every day.

MR. COLLINS: It depends on where you live, the response you get.

MR. BARRETT: If you ask people in rural Newfoundland, for example, who have a gravel road, in an opinion poll, they never, ever say that transportation is a problem.

MR. COLLINS: If you ask people in Labrador you will get it.

MR. BARRETT: No, you will not.

MR. COLLINS: Indeed you will.

MR. BARRETT: No, you will not. They will say health care or some other things.

MR. COLLINS: You will get airline travel too, believe me.

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible) 1 per cent.

MR. E. BYRNE: No imminent sense then if there is any serious movement.

MR. BARRETT: No.

MR. E. BYRNE: Are there any other conferences planned vis-à-vis in the next little while or short term where provincial ministers may have an opportunity to put the type of pressure required on the federal government?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, there will be a conference. They were trying to put a conference together for May but I think it was impossible to co-ordinate to get all of the ministers together. I think the next conference is in September, in Winnipeg. As a matter of fact, the Atlantic Provinces' ministers, we meet separately. We normally meet a week before we go to the national conference. As a matter of fact, the last conference we attended, all four Atlantic Provinces went with the same script, just a different presentation.

MR. E. BYRNE: Fair enough.

MR. BARRETT: We have a common interest in the Atlantic Provinces because one of the problems with the federal programs right now, and one of the problems with the ship program, it is done on a per capita basis. That is ridiculous.

MR. E. BYRNE: Just the math alone.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

The massive transportation system we have here compared to P.E.I., and the smaller provinces with a higher population get a bigger amount. Alberta is getting a fair amount. (Inaudible) that is $80 million or $90 million of road work in Alberta on a cost-shared basis, and Alberta has the money to do the work provincially. It is out to lunch in terms of, on a per capita basis. It should be allocated based more on the number of kilometers of road that you have.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, exactly.

Okay. Thank you.

MR. BARRETT: That is the battle we are fighting with the Atlantic Provinces.

CHAIR: Elizabeth, I will ask you to call the heads.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am not finished.

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to 3.2.05, page 80, Regional Roads - Transportation Initiative, 06., Purchased Services, you had budgeted $12,600,000, spent $12,929,000, and this year it is $10,005,000. It is down by some $3 million from what was spent last year. Can you give me an explanation for that?

MR. BARRETT: Which one is that?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Subhead 3.2.05.06., Purchased Services.

MR. BARRETT: Subhead 3.2.05, Regional Roads - Transportation Initiative?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Purchased Services?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: This is the last year of the regional trunk roads agreement and that is money that has been allocated to more or less finish off the projects that were started. I have a list of the projects here, if you want me to give them to you.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I would appreciate that, if you would.

MR. BARRETT: It is the paving of the Conception Bay North-Harbour Grace-Carbonear, $3.3 million; the paving of Cooper Boulevard, $.3 million; the resurfacing of Route 10, Southern Shore Highway, $750,000; the paving of the CBN-Tilton-Harbour Grace, $2.9 million; grading of the CBN-Harbour Grace-Carbonear, $1.6 million; structuring Tilton barrens, $.5 million; structuring of the Hat Brook, Hard Path Road and Bannerman Lake Road, $1.6 million; the paving of the CBS bypass, $.7 million; and the extension to Cooper Boulevard, $.4 million.

MR. JACK BYRNE: They will all be included in the list I asked for earlier, I would imagine.

Some of the other questions I had been prepared to ask, I think, have been dealt with, but on page 88, Government Purchasing Agency, 5.1.01. -

MR. BARRETT: Page 88?

MR. JACK BYRNE: Page 88 of our Estimates, 5.1.01., Government Purchasing Agency. I just made a note here, when I was going through this, with respect to the Public Tender Act and the Auditor General. Over the past number of years she has always pointed out areas where government did not follow the Public Tender Act, or circumvented the Public Tender Act and what have you. Are there any plans by your department to actually try and adhere better to the Public Tender Act than has been done in the past?

MR. BARRETT: We always abide by the Public Tender Act.

MR. JACK BYRNE: So, you haven't read the Auditor General's report over the past few years?

MR. BARRETT: No, no, no. All the Auditor General's report is talking about are exemptions to the Public Tender Act, and that is provided for in the Public Tender Act.

MR. JACK BYRNE: The exemptions under the Public Tender Act are supposed to be reported within a certain time to the House of Assembly and exemptions to the Public Tender Act are not supposed to be - with respect to the Financial Administration Act, when you allocate funds and the House of Assembly is open it is supposed to be brought to the House of Assembly. All of these things she has been pointing out in the past and I am just wondering -

MR. BARRETT: Every exemption to the Public Tender Act, since I have been minister, have been tabled the minute the House is open.

MR. JACK BYRNE: Okay.

A couple of more questions. I am almost clued up. I just saw this note here that I had made to myself. With respect to the depots across the Province, I understand that certain, maybe all of the depots, the regions themselves, have an age profile of all the roads within their districts, the road conditions and what have you. Could we get a list of those age profiles from the various provincial districts, not MHA districts? The Works, Services and Transportation areas or zones have an age profile of the work that needs to be done, priority work. Could we have a list of that priority work from each area?

MR. BARRETT: Well, we could get it, but if we tie our people up we will not have a capital roads program this year. We only have so much -

MR. JACK BYRNE: You take the White Hills, for example.

MR. BARRETT: We only have so much staff and these people, right now, have been gearing up for the Trans-Labrador Highway work, the provincial roads work, the Roads for Rails work and the Regional Trunk Roads Agreement. Some of those questions that you are asking, we would have to take the people off those projects to give you that kind of information.

MR. JACK BYRNE: This one here in particular. For example, you know that -

MR. BARRETT: Within the doldrums of next winter I will give it to you.

MR. JACK BYRNE: No, I want it before that.

For example, the director down there in the White Hills, obviously they have a list done of the priority work that they would like to see done in that district. I would imagine it is only a matter of just going and picking the list out of a file. I sent you a priority list from my district and other members would have done the same thing.

MR. BARRETT: They have a list but I do not think they have it ranked in terms of priority. They have a list of work that needs to be done in the regions. I do not think they categorize it in terms of number one, number two, number three or anything like that. They list what we would like to do.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I thought they might have it done by priority with respect to a safety issue versus not a safety issue.

MR. BARRETT: That would be done in terms of any culverts or bridges and that sort of stuff. It would be done in terms of the safety thing, but in terms of resurfacing of a road, it is not done on a priority basis from the regions like that.

MR. JACK BYRNE: I am okay for now, thanks.

CHAIR: Ed?

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, just two quick questions and I am finished.

On page 82 under Land Acquisition, "Appropriations provide for the purchase of property," Property, Furnishings and Equipment: This would be ongoing related to some of the by-pass work. Is that what that is totally concerned with there?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: The second question, just dealing in terms of Advanced Planning - Studies on page 83: It says here, "Appropriations provide for professional fees associated with the planning of future projects." What sort of projects would be involved in this year in terms of the amount that we are asked to provide for this morning? What projects does the department have in mind or is that just a general amount there to be utilized when and if it becomes necessary?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. It may not be used at all.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is what I am asking you. Are there any projects that it is attached to or is it a general amount that, you know, based upon experience, comes up every year, that you are going to require something in that area. So, you can see the latter as opposed to the former?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. We budgeted last year $200,000 but we only used $10,000.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, I noticed that. That is why I was wondering if it is attached to any specific project or projects or if it is an amount there that you have just allocated knowing that, based upon past experience, some money will be required in that area.

MR. BARRETT: Of course, it is also based on if we have some storm damage, that sort of thing, to buildings where we have to go out and hire professionals.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay, you have answered the question. Fair enough.

MR. BARRETT: It is sort of a contingency fund there for emergencies.

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes.

CHAIR: Now, Elizabeth, if you would be kind enough to call the heads.

MR. COLLINS: I have a couple of quick questions there, too, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Go ahead.

MR. BARRETT: Well, if we are going to continue on we will have to take a break.

MR. COLLINS: The Member for Cape St. Francis, I can probably go to him and get it because he has requested a fair bit of information here this morning, but I was wondering if it was possible if I could get the amount of leased space and the rent that is paid for government in Labrador West, because you have a government building there? My understanding is it is not totally utilized but there is a lot of office space being rented in Labrador City, as well, in one location. I am wondering if I can get a copy of the square footage and the amount of rent that is paid?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: Did I understand the minister correctly a little while ago when he said that their intention, when phase III of the Labrador Highway is started, is that it will start at both ends simultaneously and work towards the middle?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: The final question I have is: Does the minister have any information on the Simms River Bridge on the Esker Road in Labrador, as to when we can expect something to happen there this year or is the minister familiar with it?

MR. BARRETT: That is the one Hydro is involved in, isn't it?

MR. COLLINS: Hydro is involved in it, as well. I wonder if you had any recent conversations with Hydro concerning when that would start?

MR. BARRETT: There hasn't been anything firmed up on it yet.

MR. COLLINS: Okay. That is it.

CHAIR: Elizabeth, would you be kind enough to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.1.04 carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, total heads, carried.

On motion, the Committee adjourned at 11:35 a.m.