May 7, 2002 GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Sweeney): Order, please!

Good evening. Sorry for the little delay. My name is George Sweeney, I am the Chair of the Government Services Committee. I would ask the committee members to introduce themselves.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. E. BYRNE: Ed Byrne, MHA for Kilbride.

CHAIR: Are you a guest?

MR. E. BYRNE: I am replacing Paul Shelley.

CHAIR: Do you have a sheet?

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) last week or a couple of weeks ago.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for Labrador West.

CHAIR: Before we move any further, just a little bit of housekeeping. Could I have a motion to adopt the minutes of the last meeting?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Just some housekeeping duties for our minister and his officials. Before you speak make sure your light is on. Give Kevin a chance, I think he only has one camera, so that he can identify you. Just state your name after your light comes on and before you start your address.

Minister, if you would like to start some opening remarks.

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. We appreciate this opportunity to discuss our department's estimates and review some of our activities for the past year and plans for the coming year.

With me tonight are: Barbara Wakeham, who is the Deputy Minister of the department; Bill MacKenzie, Assistant Deputy Minister for Government Services; Winston Morris, Assistant Deputy Minister for Consumer and Commercial Affairs; Bill Parrott, Assistant Deputy Minister for Lands; and Wayne Moores, Manager of Financial Operations.

Government Services and Lands consists of three branches: Government Services; Consumer and Commercial Affairs; and Lands. We have about 500 employees who provide a wide range of services in various regions throughout the Province. We administer more than eighty-five acts.

Our Government Services Branch provides accessible and efficient services to the public and business community in the areas of public health and safety, highway safety, driver and vehicle registrations, building accessability, vital statistics, controlled use of land, and environmental standards enforcement. This branch includes: five government service centres, Vital Statistics and Motor Registration.

Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch is responsible for ensuring that consumer interests are protected, and commerce facilitated. This branch includes Commercial Registries, Insurance and Pensions, Residential Tenancies, Securities, Trade Practices and Licencing, and the Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation.

Our Lands Branch manages the Province's Crown Land, 95 per cent of all provincial land; processes applications to acquire or use Crown lands; archives Crown titles documents, and distributes maps and other land-related information. This branch includes Crown Lands, Land Management, and Surveys and Mapping.

Our department has a wide range of duties and responsibilities. I believe we do a pretty good job, but we are constantly endeavouring to do more - particularly in improving consumer protection and awareness.

We believe collaboration and consultation are important. We make every effort to work in partnership with our internal and external clients, and try to find new and more effective ways to carry out our responsibilities and serve citizens.

I would like to highlight a few of our current activities. This year, our Government Services Branch will be hiring seven additional Environmental Health Officers to test water quality in public water supplies. These officers will be certified inspectors who will take samples from the tap-end of the supply. We are hiring six Newfoundland students this summer who have been studying environmental health at the University College of Cape Breton.

This year, almost all lab testing will be done at public health labs in hospitals, instead of by our staff in office labs. This will enable our inspectors to take additional samples throughout the Province, rather than spending time in the lab.

This increase in funding to hire the Environmental Health Officers is part of government's larger effort to ensure continued safe drinking water throughout the Province, in concert with Health and Community Services, Environment, and Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Each of these departments has also received an increase in this year's budget to address water quality issues.

Our Government Services Branch acts on behalf of the Department of Environment with respect to spill response situations. We have eleven Environmental Health Officers deployed throughout the Province to respond in these situations. These staff monitor, on a rotating shift basis, the Canadian Coast Guard Environmental Emergency line, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

It is important to note that the polluter pays for clean up - not the taxpayer. No one may pollute with impunity.

Last year, our department, and the Department of Environment, struck a committee of consumers and fuel and insurance industry representatives to advise government on regulation of domestic oil tanks and systems. This committee's recommendations became effective April 1 of this year. Our staff monitor the implementation of these regulations on behalf of the Department of Environment.

Last year, the Motor Registration Division instituted government's first e-commerce application for consumers in providing for online motor vehicle renewals. This service now handles more than 5 per cent of all renewals, with some regions processing almost 8 per cent via the Internet. This year, we intend to develop a similar Internet application for vehicle dealers to allow them to register their sales directly with Motor Registration.

As you may be aware, the Government of Canada, in July 1999, amended the Criminal Code to increase a federal period of prohibition from driving for impaired drivers. In addition, the Criminal Code now permits judges to include provisions for reduction of prohibition periods where ignition interlock programs are present in the Province's legislation. Many jurisdictions have also implemented more severe penalties for repeat offenders, and introduced vehicle impoundment for drivers found driving in violation of a suspension.

In response to the federal changes, a committee was established to review existing penalties for persons convicted of alcohol offences. The committee's mandate was to review and propose options in five major areas of driver management as follows: driver licence suspension periods, administrative suspensions, education/assessment/treatment, vehicle seizure/impoundment, and interlock devices. These areas represent the major issues impacting persons convicted of alcohol-related offences, and also represent areas that other jurisdictions have focused attention on in the past several years to reduce impaired driving.

We now have a bill before the Legislature to amend the Highway Traffic Act to incorporate changes recommended by this committee to increase suspension periods, introduce an ignition interlock pilot project, and provide for vehicle seizure and impoundment. This legislation would make our laws among the toughest in the country.

Last week government also gave first reading to a bill calling for a ban on the use of hand-held cell phones by drivers while driving. We have researched the use of cell phones by drivers, reviewed legislative initiatives elsewhere, and concluded it is time to act.

We have also managed to get the fishing and trucking industries to agree to meet regulations requiring the elimination of spillage from trucks transporting fish products across the Province. Our department has been trying to enforce this regulation for years. We have now agreed to a deadline of July 1 for strict enforcement. As of that date fish processors, as a condition of their licence, will be required to transport fish products in trucks which have containers or drip tanks capable of containing all liquids and preventing leakage. Regulations are now being amended to clearly define the nature of compliant trucks.

I would also like to point out that our Motor Registration Division assumed responsibility for the Mobility Impaired Parking Program on January 2, 2002, and eliminated the $25 permit fee. This was done at the request of various stakeholder groups.

Last fall we issued a consultation paper on automobile insurance reform containing fifty-one proposals which would provide for reduced cost of insurance, restricted benefits in some areas, improved benefits in other areas, greater penalties for impaired and uninsured drivers, and enhanced consumer protection. I expect to be in a position to make recommendations to Cabinet on the proposals soon, with the intent to have any new legislation ready for this fall.

One of the proposals is to provide improved consumer education on insurance matters. This issue was brought up by a number of respondents. Our department has made a commitment to do more in this area. Included in this budget is provision to hire an educational coordinator to develop consumer education programs for insurance and other financial areas such as investments, pensions, real estate, and pre-paid funerals. Also, additional funding has been provided for the development, printing and promoting of consumer education material.

Government now has a bill before the House proposing the appointment of an advocate to represent consumer interests at Public Utilities Board automobile insurance rate hearings. This was one of the proposals contained in the consultation paper. During the consultation process, consumers sent us a clear message: They did not think their interests were being fully considered by the parties involved and many indicated a clear mistrust in the overall automobile insurance rate setting process. Government has heard those concerns and is responding to them. We are moving quickly on this matter to ensure consumer interests are properly represented if the Public Utilities Board holds a hearing of automobile insurance rates in a few months.

Bingos have been in the news quite a bit lately. Bingo playing is illegal under the Criminal Code of Canada unless they are licensed for charitable purposes. Government approves bingo operations by charities on condition they provide a minimum 15 per cent of gross revenues for charitable purposes. While we believe that 15 per cent is a reasonable goal, about half of all operators are not achieving it. We are working with them to try and improve this situation.

In March of 2000, government approved satellite bingo to help increase returns. We also introduced an eighteen month phased-in compliance period for the 15 per cent return. This called for a 5 per cent return by June 2001, a 10 per cent by December 2001, and a 15 per cent by June of this year.

We also placed a motorium on new bingo licences, with the exception of special events, in St. John's, Mount Pearl, Conception Bay South, and parts of Conception Bay North until the end of the phased-in compliance period.

In 2001,approximately $50 million was spent on bingo in the Province. Of this amount, about $37 million was given out in prizes, and $6 million was allocated for expenditures such as supplies, rent, and salaries. This left about $7 million for charities, or 14.2 per cent.

The St. John's region has the lowest average return to charities at 10.57 per cent. We are holding meetings with licensees to explore ways to increase these returns. It is interesting to note that since we have applied a more strict application of regulations, returns to charities have increased considerably.

Our budget this year also provides for a new financial examiner for our Securities Commission to provide enhanced monitoring of activities in this area. This is necessary, as more and more consumers are investing in mutual funds, the stock markets and educational funds.

During the last fiscal year, we also increased the insurance on credit union deposits from $60,000 per type of account to $250,000. Prior to the increase, 84.5 per cent of deposits were protected. Now, close to 100 per cent are protected. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador have long depended on the credit unions of the Province to supply them with the financial services they have needed. By raising the limit for insured deposits, we have put in place an insurance system that is more comprehensive than that currently offered by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

The Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation was established in 1994 to regulate the industry and provide deposit protection for credit union members. Government appoints the board, consisting of three government and three industry representatives. It operates independently. Last November it found it necessary to remove the board of the Labrador Savings Credit Union and seek its amalgamation with the Eagle River Credit Union. This has yet to be concluded since the action is being contested before the courts.

During the year we have raised questions about the need for proposed Cable TV rate increases announced by Rogers Cable for three speciality channel packages and the basic rate in Corner Brook. The amount of increase per customer, per month, might not appear large but the total annual revenues to the company, and the costs to consumers, will be significant.

I also wrote the Minister of Industry with respect to my concerns that Aliant Telecom were proposing a common basic residential price across the Atlantic region, which would mean higher prices in this Province. I am concerned with their proposals which would result in higher costs for consumers in rural areas than in urban areas. Further, I objected to the fact that the CRTC did not hold hearings on the matter in this Province. Public hearings were held in Hull, Quebec, which I attended, and at which I made a presentation.

On another consumer issue, I have endorsed statements by the Secretary of State for International Financial Institutions regarding, as he described it, grotesquely high credit card interest rates. I wrote to the federal minister responsible for consumer affairs asking that action be taken with respect to these exorbitant rates.

While most interest rates are tied to the Bank of Canada rate, now at a forty-year low, rates charged on some credit cards, especially retail cards, seem to be excessively high. Given that many credit card issuers are reluctant to reduce interest rates, the federal government must review this matter to determine how consumers might be better protected.

I do not accept arguments that things are okay the way they are, and that consumers have lots of choice when it comes to credit cards. If a rate is unfair, it is unfair. It is as simple as that.

I have also asked the federal Finance Minister to eliminate recent levies imposed on air travellers to offset the cost of new security measures for the airline industry.

We recognize and agree with the need for increased security for the travelling public in the wake of the tragic events of September 11; however, we disagree with funding such initiatives through a user pay system. The imposition of additional charges on travellers is unfair when the intent of the new security measures is to protect the public generally.

Airline travel is currently extremely expensive in smaller, remote markets such as Newfoundland and Labrador. I have urged the federal minister to draw the necessary funds from general revenues of the Government of Canada.

Last month we announced details regarding our Financial Awareness Month activities, our Financial Awareness Month Web site, and a special Financial Awareness Project undertaken in co-operation with the North American Securities Administrators Association and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St. John's.

The highlight was the launching of a special financial awareness course to be piloted as part of the archdiocese's marriage preparation program. A new publication entitled Planning for Your Financial Future serves as the main document for the course. This publication, as well as an instructor's guide, are both posted on the Web site.

Financial literacy is essential to the financial stability of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We want to ensure citizens are in a position to make well-informed, educated decisions about where and how they invest and manage their personal incomes.

We are also making efforts to improve the operation of our Registry of Deeds and Companies by modernizing equipment and improving administrative procedures.

Turning to our Lands Branch, I would point out that Crown Lands has been very busy with the implementation of a new computer-based, inter-regional, inter-agency system; and, when coupled with ongoing business rules, changes will improve efficiency in the complex process of managing our land resources for the benefit of all, while being timely in the issuance of Crown titles. This system will initially be used internally, but parts of it will eventually be available to the public via the Internet. The system will streamline decision making and allow access to the provincial maps and data bases Province wide, and once fully implemented will provide for the application for Crown land at any regional office.

The Lands Branch has also expended considerable effort in property mapping along the Coast of Labrador, and resource mapping in Central Labrador, both in support of the land claims negotiations.

New technological developments in digital mapping, Web-mapping services, and satellite positioning are changing the way the branch does business. Last year, nearly all of the base maps the branch uses to manage resources and lands were converted to digital format. The staff are currently preparing these maps for use on the Internet.

Over 50 per cent of the large scale mapping that now exists has been produced within the last ten years. The branch is now calling contracts for mapping in the CBS, Paradise, Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's and western portions of the City of St. John's.

This work will revise mapping that is older than twenty years. Through partnering with municipalities and industry, we have been able to increase the number of maps produced annually by 40 per cent.

I would also like to mention our ongoing efforts, in conjunction with the federal government, in the federally-funded GeoConnections Program. This program is managed by the Surveys and Mapping Division in partnership with other divisions and departments of government and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The main goal of the GeoConnections Program is to make geospatial data available throughout government and to the public on the Internet.

One project under this program is entitled, Administrative Boundaries. It provides standard digital versions of municipal boundaries, electoral districts, parks and eco zones. The Lands Branch is currently defining the regional economic zones under this project, and other data layers may be added.

The other GeoConnections project is called, Connecting and Sharing Geospatial Data in Newfoundland and Labrador. The scope of this multi-year project is ambitious and includes: searchable indexes to digital data; establishing Internet publishing facilities; Internet viewing of all base maps; Internet viewing of Crown titles and land use; and interconnection of geospatial Web services.

These exciting advances are made possible by recent developments in technology, but they also reflect years of sustained effort by the branch.

The department is continuing its program of cottage development in conjunction with other government resource management departments and representatives from the pulp and paper industry. The program involves the establishment of large administrative areas and the designation of specific locations within them where planned cottage development may occur. The purpose of this program is to reduce resource related land use conflicts and provide recreational cottage opportunities to the public.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you very much for this opportunity. I welcome your suggestions, questions and observations.

CHAIR: In Elizabeth's absence, I will call the first subhead, 1.1.01., and we will commence our questioning.

Ed.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

Does he have to table that document, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: Don't start that tonight.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am not going to.

MR. NOEL: Sure, we will table it, no problem.

MR. E. BYRNE: No requirement; no request, I should say.

MR. NOEL: No request, good.

MR. E. BYRNE: I appreciate the extensive outline because it does provide, certainly for me, as a member of the committee, greater insight in terms of what the department does. Probably, in terms of the public understanding of the department, it is not well-known. It is more well-known, I would think, than it has been in the past, largely due to your efforts. I mean that sincerely. It is a department that affects the day-to- day lives of everybody in terms of what is within the scope and purview of the department.

I do not have a lot of questions. I just have probably ten or fifteen minutes, if that would be okay with the Chair and the Committee members. I will be done for the evening then.

CHAIR: Normally, the way I operate is a relaxed mode.

MR. E. BYRNE: Fair enough, as we did before.

CHAIR: We will just try to achieve our goal, like before.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

In terms of Crown land, and what you have indicated in terms of the improvements in trying to map out what is Crown Land, does the department - you have indicated, in terms of St. John's West and Paradise, that area in terms of mapping out Crown land, do you have any idea how much Crown land is now available in that region that you have talked about?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Parrott is probably the best one to deal with that.

MR. PARROTT: The mapping that the minister referred to in his opening remarks is base- mapping, which is basic mapping to show exactly all the physical and cultural characteristics on the landscape; because the mapping that is currently in use is twenty-five to thirty years old.

To answer directly to your question, not all the titles that are issued in those areas that you mentioned have been plotted based on the fact that many of the titles in the greater St. John's area date back sometimes as far back as the 1840s. The survey information that attaches to them is insufficient to plot them. As well, there are a lot of titles that were burnt in the fire of 1892. That, coupled with the fact that adverse possession is the route of many titles, which is possession against the Crown of sixty years, and without compulsory land registration in the Province it is not necessary for somebody who is claiming a title to actually register it in a Registry of Deeds, it makes land ownership issues around metropolitan St. John's very difficult.

MR. E. BYRNE: I have a number of them, certainly, in the district I represent in terms of Crown land in the Kilbride/Goulds area and others that constituents have come in from time to time and have faced the very issues that you have talked about, simply because of past practices, I suppose, and land being passed from one family generation to another generation, et cetera.

In terms of how much, do you have any idea of how much land is available that the Crown owns in that area or that can be considered Crown land, I guess, within the scope and definition of what Crown land is?

MR. PARROTT: All I would be giving you is an educated ballpark guess.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is not something I am going to hold your feet to the fire on, I assure you. I am just trying to get a sense of how much we are talking about, that is all.

MR. PARROTT: Well, once you get outside the built-up area of the city and outside the Goulds and Kilbride, down that area, you are looking probably upwards of 80 per cent or 85 per cent that is Crown land.

MR. NOEL: Very little in the city itself.

MR. PARROTT: Very little in the city itself, yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: In terms of your interaction with other departments - I would suspect it is many departments you interact with on that - with respect to the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, have there been any recent discussions on making some Crown land available for more agricultural purposes within the Province? I am thinking specifically related to the recent decision on the industrial milk quota, for example, that is going to allow for a lot of secondary processing in products such as cheese, cottage cheese, yogurts, et cetera, which we mainly import now but, because of the assignment of an industrial milk quota, it is going to provide an opportunity for significant growth in an industry and jobs and employment, but associated with that, one of the areas that the agricultural industry faces, I guess, the challenge is the availability of land for forage, and to grow forage. It is one of the areas where, for example, last year many farmers or producers within the Province, because of the extreme weather conditions face the drought situation because they could not get a second cut of hay and that is directly related to the amount of land available to them. I am just presenting a series of conditions, I suppose, of what some producers are facing.

Have there been any discussions with the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods related to making Crown land available that would be deemed as suitable to the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods for the purposes of agricultural purposes or for providing to existing producers in the Province, whether it be root crop, dairy producers, et cetera, the availability of Crown land that could be cleared, that would be seen as suitable for forage to provide greater land mass and thus ensuring, I guess, a greater potential of the industry to thrive and survive?

MR. NOEL: I am not aware of any particular discussions. Ms Wakeham, do you...?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I haven't had any direct discussions with Forest Resources and Agrifoods on this. We have always made Crown land available to other government departments for the purposes of whatever the activity is. The last dealings that I had, that I am aware of, we had the agricultural development lands set aside. There had not been any requests at that point in time for additional forage areas, but if Forest Resources and Agrifoods come to us and we have lands (inaudible) and available for that purpose, then certainly. Unless it is encumbrance or something, we are certainly prepared to make that available.

MR. PARROTT: The officials we have worked closely with, agriculture in particular, and forestry as well, in terms of making land available - usually there are certain areas throughout the Province that are designated as land development areas. These are Crown lands that have a high potential through soil testing and proximity to existing commercial farms. These areas are reserved for agricultural purposes only.

Also, when we have agricultural land that reverts to the Crown we work in consultation with the agriculture people to make sure that they review it. A certain amount of these lands are reallocated based on a bid basis by existing commercial farmers in the area. We also have a program with agriculture to ensure that we do not crowd commercial farms with other types of land uses that would conflict; to ensure that areas are set and reserved for these farms to expand so that a farm can be financially viable instead of having several smaller farms where everybody fails, and you have a larger farm. So this is an ongoing process.

As well, we make land available to agriculture to exchange, notably in the Gould's forage area. As they acquire lands certain people want to acquire other pieces of property; Crown land in exchange to build a house on, where they cannot go in the forage area. We have worked hand-in-hand with agriculture on these projects. This is an ongoing process within the divisions.

With forestry it is an ongoing issue because the three branches try to do a lot of consultation to ensure that forestry does not spend money on silviculture projects next to commercial farms or in areas where farming could occur because then you would have a conflict of timber resources and agriculture. So there is an ongoing conflict. We are working with the maps to make sure that the maps are suitable on a computer basis; that all the departments can use the same maps so that these problems are seen before they develop.

MR. NOEL: That is a pretty comprehensive answer I think, but it is the policy of government generally to encourage people to put more land in the Province to use for agricultural purposes. That has been a personal objective of mine since I have been involved in government. I think we should be producing a lot more of our own food and dairy products, and that sort of thing. I would like to see more of it happen. Certainly, we will do anything we can to facilitate it.

MR. E. BYRNE: One of the problems that many producers are facing, given the elimination of the (inaudible) subsidy and other things that have occurred, both provincially and nationally - one of the problems in terms of the agricultural sector itself, in its ability for some existing operations to survive, is the access to a land base. For example, government instituted or provided, based upon some lobbying and a proposal being put forward to them last year prior to Christmas, responded - because of the drought farmers and many producers were in a position, because of the weather conditions, that they had extraordinary costs because they were unable to get, for example, a second cut of hay off their existing land base. Particularly in Musgravetown East this occurred because the weather was more extreme in terms of drought conditions. But, had many of them had the land base, which was the fundamental problem - they would not have been in that position if there was more suitable (inaudible).

I am just trying to get a better understanding, for my own point of view, of the relationship between Crown Lands and making the availability of Crown land based upon a request, or requests, from the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods for extra land base or extra Crown land available for that purpose, in terms of more forage areas.

Just a quick question on the bidding process. Again, this is a question from a novice, and why I ask it in terms of - How did the bidding process work? You referenced earlier the bidding process for those areas. Could you explain that to me?

MR. PARROTT: No, I am not going to be able to explain it. That is a process that is internal to agriculture. We reserve the property, the land, and agriculture has a -

MR. E. BYRNE: And agriculture administers the bidding process.

MR. PARROTT: They administer it and then they tell us who to issue the title to, and we administer the titles there.

MR. E. BYRNE: So, you are under direction and that is where it is?

MR. PARROTT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am fine for the moment, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a number of questions with respect to the estimates themselves and subheads, but I have other questions prepared. I will just get into those first maybe. Some of these you actually touched on in your introduction. Maybe parts of these questions are already answered, so be it.

The facility association, a non-profit organization of course - you are quite familiar with - established under the Insurance Act. Does the department have any information on how much is collected through this facility each year? How much is dispersed as a result of payment? Over the last ten years, what has been the net differences?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Morris has a lot of detailed information on that one.

MR. MORRIS: We do have all of those figures available. I do not have them tonight at my fingertips. There was a hearing at the Public Utilities Board about a year ago, which I intervened on behalf of the Province, with respect to the rates of facility associations. As part of that, we did an analysis of money collected since their inception and money paid out. It is clear to me that over the long haul the facility association has been profitable. They made more money than they paid out in claims. During the last half of the 1990s, in particular, they were quite profitable. Last year they had significant loses, but overall, they have been a profitable enterprise.

MR. J. BYRNE: We can get the details later?

MR. MORRIS: Sure, I have the exact numbers up in the office. I do not have them at my fingertips but I can certainly get them for you; absolutely.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can the department provide information as to the cost of the implementation and maintenance of a petroleum regulation system in this Province last year?

MR. MORRIS: I think it was in the area of $350,000 or something; approximately $350,000. Again, we can get you the precise figures later.

MR. J. BYRNE: Obviously then, you can give me the cost of this fiscal year to maintain the petroleum regulation system?

MR. NOEL: Now, you understand that for the first year we provide the financing to set up the office but in future years the industry is going to be assessed contributions to the cost of the office so taxpayers will not be paying any of the costs. The industry will entirely finance the operations of the directive.

Incidently, it might be worth noting that one state in the United States, Hawaii, has now also instituted a petroleum pricing office very similar to ours. As a matter of fact, they have consulted with us for information on how to do it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Of course, this is only a question. I know the answer before I ask it, I suppose. You feel that it is working? The people of the Province are benefitting from it?

MR. NOEL: Well, I think that the Province feels it is working. Most of the more prominent spokespersons on petroleum issues within the Province have been very supportive of the work of the office. I think that people generally think it is doing a pretty reasonable job but, of course, it has only had a short term to operate so far. We will see what happens over the longer run.

MR. J. BYRNE: Wasn't it a fact though, that when the office was established there were prices that were down and now since the world prices started to go back up, the rates are going up? So, it is really having an impact, or is it just delaying the inevitable, type of thing?

MR. NOEL: Well, it was never intended to prevent prices from going up and down. What it was intended to do was stabilize the changes and try and limit price changes to once a month. Prior to the establishment of the office we were seeing prices fluctuate sometimes on a daily basis, and even within the same day. Most people who have spoken to me about it have indicated that they think that alone makes the office a worthwhile venture.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, we will get a breakdown of how much it did cost to implement?

MR. NOEL: Yes, you can have - I do know, do we have the details at hand? Anyway, if we come across them tonight we will give them to you, otherwise, we will provide them after this evening. We did not realize you would require that detail.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, when I was hearing your introduction there I was thinking: well, this is like a preempted strike, type of thing; that most of our questions we have you already touched on.

The next few I have here is with respect to bingo, and you may have been (inaudible). Can the minister provide a list of the bingos that have been forced out of business as result of the bingo regulations introduced by the government last year?

MR. NOEL: Zero. We haven't forced anyone out of business.

MR. J. BYRNE: But is there any gone out of business?

MR. NOEL: Some have decided not to renew their licences but, as far as I can recall, we haven't forced any operation to quit that way.

MR. MORRIS: No, we haven't forced anyone to close. Several did close because, actually, a number were losing money and they voluntarily said - well, they were not going to bother to stay open.

MR. J. BYRNE: Maybe it was a poor choice of words saying they were forced out of business, but by bringing in these regulations how many closed as a result of that? If they are saying that they voluntarily closed and they were losing money, would they still be open maybe if those regulations were not in place?

MR. MORRIS: There are about, I think, to date, approximately twenty across the whole Province that closed. That is not an exact number, but it is in that range.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: Most likely they would still be operating if they wanted to, because everybody who appealed we worked with and gave them some ideas about how we felt they could have more successful operations, and we have worked to get commitments from them to change their methods of operation. So, even those people who have closed, if they had appealed and if they had spoken to us about what they planned to do, nobody would have been required to close.

This is a very difficult issue and it is very difficult to have uniform regulations right across the Province and deal with particular situations. We are putting a lot of time and effort into trying to do that, trying to improve the returns for charities, and we are having some success.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are there any more in danger of losing their licences because they cannot meet that percentage that you put in place? Is there potential for more to go out of business because of that?

MR. NOEL: Oh, yes. As of the end of December last year, I think some seventy operations were in jeopardy of losing their licence because they never met the 10 per cent return requirement. I think over fifty of them have appealed a notification they got that their licence would be withdrawn. Is that the latest number, fifty-five or something?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. NOEL: I sent out a letter to them three or four weeks ago, I guess, telling them that we were assessing the situation and encouraging anybody who wanted to continue to appeal the notice indicating that we would work with them and see if we can find a way to make their operation as satisfactory, and we assured them that they would have until at least the end of May, this month, to try and come to an understanding with the department about how they can improve their operations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Further to that, I was thinking about - and I think it was brought up in the House - these small bingo operations in, say, rural Newfoundland. It might be the Lions Club or the Kinsmen or something like that, having bingos and donating to charity. I know down in Pouch Cove, for example, you have the Lions down there. Every function I attend, they are donating money to the schools or the fire hall, or whatever the case may be. I am wondering what impact these regulations have on these very small operations that are really there for nothing else other than charities, and taking no money out of it for themselves.

MR. NOEL: It is really hard to generalize, because we have looked at all the operations in the Province and you cannot say that smaller operations do a better job of making returns for charities than larger operations. Some of the smaller ones do really well, and some of the larger ones do poorly, and some of the larger ones do well also. We are faced again with the problem of having to have uniform regulations. Everybody has to be treated fairly and equitably. We can have different regulations for different categories of operations but, within that, everybody has to be treated fairly.

We often hear that people have a particular sympathy for smaller operations, in more rural parts of the Province and that sort of thing. Even in the largest operations, some of these umbrella operations in St. John's are turning over $2.5 million to $3 million a year but they are comprised of small charities. I think the largest group is thirteen charities, and most of them are six or seven, I think. Some of them are individually very small charities, worthwhile charities and that sort of thing. It is the charity that has the licence, and not the umbrella group as such, so it is very difficult to try to make regulations that -

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't know if it is really right to compare bingo operations in, say, St. John's or Corner Brook and these areas to a community which has 500 or 600 people living there. I do not see making that comparison.

MR. NOEL: In what way?

MR. J. BYRNE: Just in the basic survival of these operations at the best of times, and then trying to pay this 15 per cent.

MR. NOEL: Some of them do very well. Half of all the bingo operations in the Province raise about 15 per cent. Some of them are very small and some of them are quite large. One of the largest ones, I guess, like the satellite bingo operation, I think they have already returned something like $1.7 million, is it? to charities, and they have only been in operation just over a year, and VOCM radio bingo returns a lot.

It is not our intention to prevent anybody who wants to operate a bingo from continuing to do so, but unless we have some standard of minimum requirement, we think that the returns for charity would deteriorate even more than is the case today.

MR. J. BYRNE: Certainly and obviously it would not be your intention to put any of these operations out of business but, by the mere fact of the regulations being in place, it could actually do that. Has there been any analysis done on the reduction in the amount of money that is going to charities now through the bingos that have gone out of business, or are potentially going out of business? Has there been any analysis done on that?

MR. NOEL: I repeat that we have not required anybody to close down to date, but most of those who have decided not to continue operating were not raising very much money anyway and, in some cases, as Winston just indicated, were actually losing money.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much is it costing the department to monitor and implement these regulations?

MR. NOEL: Do you have the figure, Winston or Barbara?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. NOEL: I guess we don't have that figure broken down because it is done as part of a larger unit.

MR. MORRIS: We don't have a breakdown of the numbers because the staff who monitor bingo also do other things, like monitor real estate and so on. We do spend a lot of time on it, no doubt; my time, the deputy's time and the staff's time. We do spend a lot of time on bingo, but we always have. In the last number of years, we have been spending a lot of time trying to get returns to charities. Even before we put in this phase-in period, there had been a lot of time spend on it.

Also, I might answer your previous question a little bit about the impact the enforcing of the rules has had in the last little while. We did an analysis, and in the last six months of last year charities actually received over $200,000 more in return to them than in the first six months of last year. It seems to be the fact that we are going out working with these charities and showing them ways in how they can increase their returns. It seems to be working and increasing returns to charities all in all.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. You answered my next question.

Anyway, we will move along away from bingo. The Government Services Centre of the department - I understand the Memorandum of Understanding with the Department of Health with respect to water inspections. Can the department provide information as to the testing procedures; describe the number of tests being conducted a month; how water bodies are chosen for testing; the length of time before the results of such testing are known; and the procedure by which those results are recorded and reported?

MR. NOEL: Mr. MacKenzie has that detail.

MR. MACKENZIE: I do not have it with me, Mr. Byrne, but I think we can get most of that. I might have to ask you to repeat the whole list of everything you wanted.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Basically, what I am asking you is to provide the information as to the testing procedures.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Describe the number of tests being conducted a month.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How water bodies are chosen for testing; that's an interesting one. The length of time before the results of such testing are known, and the procedures by which those results are recorded and reported.

I would imagine there is an actual agreement between both departments, a Memorandum of Understanding. Would it be possible to get a copy of that? Would that be public?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I want to get onto something here now and it has to do with water. It is something that came up this past summer in the rural areas, in and around St. John's, it is down my way in particular and up in Kilbride, and that is the pollution of artesian wells. There were a number down my way in particular. When I went and had mine tested it was good; thank God.

The question that I am asking - and this was brought to my attention and it probably should have been brought up in the House by now - on the mainland in different areas, in different jurisdictions - when you put down your artesian well, you might be down100 feet, 200 feet, 300 feet or whatever the case may be, then you put down the casing. You might go down one length or twenty - it could be two lengths or three lengths - to get to the bedrock. I know it is not in mine. There are regulations in place on the mainland where at the bottom of this you put a seal. You put it down and it expands out tight to the bedrock to prevent any pollution of water coming down outside the pipe and getting down into your artesian well. Are there any regulations in place in the Province with respect to that? Because I think that could be a major cause of why our wells are being polluted.

MR. MACKENZIE: We do not administer the well drilling act but there is a well drilling act in the Province with the Department of Environment. I am not sure on the specifics but I can check for you; but the Department of Environment does regulate the drilling of wells in the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. I always thought it was with you guys because of the water inspections.

CHAIR: Jack, we will give you a little break now. We will move on to Randy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure.

MR. COLLINS: I do not have very many questions at all.

Minister, I just want to respond to a couple of things you mentioned in your opening remarks. One of the things I want to respond to is the security fee that is being charged now on tickets. I know that we asked this in the House the other day, what government is doing, what the Province is doing in terms of trying to get the federal government to do away with that tax. I think government has written a letter asking Ottawa to review their position on that or to lower it. When, in fact, we believe that the security of the citizens in the country should be a federal government responsibility. The $24 per ticket that is being charged - I would like for government to write a stronger letter because the whole issue of security in the country is targeted just at one group of people, and that is the airline travelers. It is not being targeted at people who drive cars, it is not being targeted at any other group specific to the airline industry. It is going to generate, by all predictions, about four or five times as much revenue as what is actually going to be spent on increasing security.

Really, one of the first things, if government was serious about increasing security, would be to address the issue of what is causing a turnover in the security guard workers, which is low pay. It is barely above minimum wage. I think in Boston, prior to September 11, the year prior to that, there was a turnover of 250 per cent in security guard personnel. These are some of the things I just want to touch on that you mentioned in your remarks.

MR. NOEL: We certainly agree with you. I made some public comments and wrote to the Minister of Transport about that issue from a consumer perspective. Other ministers did the same thing. We have a committee of ministers that deals with the air industry, aerospace, and the military operations in the Province. We have had a number of meetings with different industry representatives and we are in the process now of looking at what we may be able to do to more effectively make that case with the federal government because I believe, as you do, that the federal government should be financing the entire cost of that, and they should be financing it out of general revenues because you are not just protecting the people in the airplanes, you are protecting the whole country. We think that is a good case to make. I see where your party had a recent initiative on that, and that is certainly in keeping with the efforts that we are making.

MR. COLLINS: Crown lands; on the issue of Crown lands, minister, I have some concerns and it has been brought to my attention. I think you and I have discussed Crown lands on a couple of occasions, and I did with the previous ministers as well. In Labrador West, for example, the department of forestry - somehow your department and the department of forestry had, I guess, an agreement that they would use the one office that used to be located in Wabush. People there could go over and get a map of the area of what was available for cottage development and all these sorts of things. Right now you cannot do that anymore. You have to call Goose Bay and they will send you a fax and a map that is as old as Methuselah, that is hand drawn, not accurate in many cases, and it is showing cottage development areas where the land is already utilized. So it is not there.

When you talk about new maps and new mapping, are there any plans for your department - I guess what I am asking is: Would your department revisit that and see if maps could be kept locally through some arrangement, even if it is with the department of forestry or some other department that is already established in Labrador West?

MR. NOEL: As I indicated, we are doing a lot to try and upgrade our abilities to supply maps and make them available. I do not know if the deputy or Mr. Parrott has a little more detail they can supply on that.

MS WAKEHAM: There has always been a problem with the cadastral maps, which is the ownership maps, in terms of being updated. We realize that this is a problem. We have been doing a lot now in terms of just getting the base maps for Labrador done.

I am not sure what the situation is with making available maps, but it depends on how many maps need to be made available. We have a central registry in Happy Valley-Goose Bay for the maps for the Labrador region. We do not have any intention of putting an office in the west, because obviously we are into a savings reduction as opposed to increasing staff, but whether or not there is some appropriate mechanism that we could use to try and facilitate the availability of maps in the west, we are certainly prepared to look at it.

MR. COLLINS: The only way people can get a map now, if they want to put a cabin in a certain area, is to call Goose Bay. Goose Bay would fax one into them on a fax machine. Right away, that tells you what quality you are getting. Like I said, that was shared before with, I think it was, the department of forestry. You could go over there at any time during the week and pick one up.

MS WAKEHAM: I do not know. Maybe, Bill, you know?

MR. PARROTT: Up until 1988, we shared an office in Wabush with forestry and there was a resource officer there who did lands as well as forestry work, and when lands moved from forestry that arrangement was no longer in effect. As the minister stated in his opening remarks, we are moving towards a system where all our maps are digital, which is computer-based, and this is a problem, as you have said, throughout the Province where people cannot quickly walk into one of our five offices. By making our maps available in a digital format, they will be available through the government Web application initially through government offices but then put it out to the Web for anybody with Web access to the government Web page. That is where we are putting our effort, so that if somebody in Lab West wants to look at the local lands available in, say, Ashuanipi River, or if they want to look in their hometown of Burgeo, they would be able to get the most up-to-date accurate maps that are available throughout anywhere in the Province; it would be available on-line.

MR. COLLINS: Is there any time frame for that? I don't mean, now, is it going to be done by May 17, or anything like that.

MR. PARROTT: We are aiming to get our base maps up on-line some time in the next six months, and then the Crown titles layer and eventually the application layer will follow after that in short intervals.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

I do not have any further questions, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Jack?

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

In May of last year the Premier announced $50 million for action on water quality. I have a list of stuff here that they said they were going to be using it for: increasing the number of inspectors, which you already addressed, and that type of thing. How much of the $50 million did your department receive the last fiscal year, and what was the money used for?

MS WAKEHAM: We did not receive $50 million. We received enough money to hire five -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am asking: How much of that did you receive? I didn't think you received $50 million.

MS WAKEHAM: We received approximately $200,000.

WITNESS: Closer to $300,000; five inspectors plus expenses.

MS WAKEHAM: Five inspectors plus expenses, so probably closer to $300,000 because you had travel and things. This year we received $453,000, roughly, to get seven inspectors. That is the total amount of money that we have received for the water testing. Basically, that was our priority, that most of the money of the $50 million was going to infrastructure under Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Apparently, last September, Government Services and Lands commissioned its survey on the use of cell phones while driving. We see the results, of course, now with the proposed legislation. Who was hired to complete the survey? How much did it cost? Were such services publicly tendered? When were they tendered? Can the minister provide a copy of the survey and subsequent report?

MR. NOEL: It cost about $1,000., I think it was. It was done by Corporate Research Associates. It was not tendered by us because it was a question added to - the government has a contract or an arrangement with that firm to do periodic polling, so our question was added as one of government's questions. The results of the poll have been made available publicly. I would be happy to provide you with a copy.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought it would be a bit more involved than that, so just basically a question added to a survey that government normally has done.

MR. NOEL: Yes. They do these quarterly surveys and every time the departments have an opportunity to add a question, if they have one, and that sort of thing.

MS WAKEHAM: It is $500 a question.

MR. NOEL: It is $500 a question, and we asked two questions in that particular one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Also, last year you commissioned a survey on the restriction of auto insurance claims to control auto insurance costs in the Province. The same type of thing?

MR. NOEL: Yes, exactly.

We did two, actually. We did one last November, I think, and another one this past February. We kind of got two different responses, although the questions were asked a bit differently. Everybody has their own view of how well a question is structured to get the most objective responses, but one indicated that there was substantial interest in the possibility of restricting compensation. The second one indicated that a majority did not accept the idea of restricting compensation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, you almost answered my next question.

The next question was going to be: Can you tell us the number of surveys that your department commissioned last year? Those were the only two?

MR. NOEL: Yes, I think so, were they? Two on insurance and -

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) and February.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just the two? Okay.

You say that the survey reports are available?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can we get copies of those?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: We made them public at the time we received them.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next question I have is on the ignition interlock. You already addressed that, but in the meantime I will read the question and see. Last year the department set up a committee to report on measures designed to combat impaired driving. As part of that, the use of an ignition interlock system was discussed. Has the department received any information on the cost of implementing such a system in this Province? If so, how much would it cost?

MR. NOEL: That is one of the reasons, I think, that the committee that was established recommended against setting up an interlock system. A lot of the organizations that are pretty close to this issue were represented on that committee, including the police organizations, government officials, and that sort of thing. We felt that we should take a serious look at implementing it, and I asked the department officials to devise a pilot project for doing so. They did that, and we have now indicated in the bill, actually, that was tabled in the House today, that we are proceeding with that pilot project.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much would it cost to implement that?

MR. NOEL: We are going to require people who will use it to pay the cost themselves. It is intended that it will not be any cost to taxpayers generally. It is supposed to be a self-financing thing for the people who use it. We expect the cost to individuals using it will be in the area of $1,500.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you saying that the people who will be required to use the interlock system will only be people who have been probably charged with impaired driving and found guilty, and then, as part off their punishment, would...?

MR. NOEL: Nobody would be required to use it. It would be there as an option. If an individual wanted to get their licence back in a shorter time frame, it is likely that the courts would provide that option, as long as they agree to participate in this interlock program. But, in order to participate, such people, as a group, will have to share the entire cost of the program. As I said, we anticipate -

MR. J. BYRNE: I can see a lot of complications with that in itself. What you just said was that, if a person was found guilty of impaired driving, to get their licence back earlier they would possibly go through this process and get their licence back six months earlier, or whatever the case may be. Then they would have their licence back. Can they go out and drive another vehicle?

MR. NOEL: Well, that is one of the difficulties with that. It would be illegal for them to do that. They would be breaking the law again, and subjecting themselves to more serious penalties. That is one of the arguments against it; it is difficult to enforce. There is no way to make sure the person drives the car that is outfitted with the interlock. That is just one of the things that we will have to deal with, but to do so will subject people to much more onerous fines.

MR. J. BYRNE: That system, in my mind, is only going to be applicable to the people who are caught impaired driving. What about those people who are driving impaired often, who do not get caught? I was thinking that it would be more or less along the lines - I am not saying it should or should not be - that if you put this in place, any vehicle that was sold would have this in place, installed, and it would be part of the process to start the car, type of thing, almost.

MR. NOEL: That every car would have one installed?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. NOEL: Well, we have not given any consideration to that. I mean, that would be creating a significant cost for every individual who buys a car and there is no requirement that anybody would have to abide by it. People would be free to do it of their own accord. I would not see government bringing in that kind of regulation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

How much would it cost the department to appoint and maintain the office of the auto insurance consumer representative?

MR. NOEL: We anticipate $100,000 per hearing.

MR. J. BYRNE: One hundred thousand?

MR. NOEL: One hundred thousand dollars per hearing. Like, it would not be a permanent position. Somebody would just be appointed when a hearing is called, but it would not be paid for by taxpayers. The advocate would be paid by the Public Utilities Board, and then the insurance industry would be assessed to cover the cost. There will be no cost to the provincial Treasury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Insurance will not go up?

MR. NOEL: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Insurance rates will not go up then?

MR. NOEL: I guess, naturally, the insurance industry will try to recoup those costs from policy holders but the cost per policy holder on a $100,000 charge would be very minimal.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much has the Department of Government Services and Lands paid to consultants in the last two years?

MR. NOEL: I do not know.

MR. J. BYRNE: That would be in the Estimates anyway. That would be broken down in the Estimates.

WITNESS: Purchased Services, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much has the department spent on advertising promotion in the last fiscal year?

MR. NOEL: Twenty thousand, is it?

MS WAKEHAM: Twenty thousand dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Twenty thousand?

MR. NOEL: Is that the total? Were there other divisions that may have spent something additional?

MS WAKEHAM: The money that was spent on promotional, we put $20,000 - we did not actually have an allocation for promotion for consumer information. We used our professional services money within the executive vote in order to be able to carry out some promotional stuff this year. Last year we had no vote for it either, but in terms of doing job ads and recruitment, and things that are spent for trade shows, mostly for newspaper articles for recruitment across all divisions and all departments, I think the total was $120,000.

I have an actual breakdown of everything that we have spent, and we have made that available so you can have that, but it is mostly for recruitment positions. Job ads in the papers is the biggest portion of it. Also, we have trade shows that we do to improve consumer awareness of certain programs that we have, so we have monies that we paid for trade booths and for publications and pamphlets and things that we did. We have already provided that information under our Freedom of Information, so you can have a copy of that. That is not a problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: Having resources directly available for such purposes was one of the real weaknesses in the department, because we deal with a lot of consumer issues and some high profile issues particularly in relation to the automobile insurance reform and that sort of thing, and we found that we did not have the financial commitment in order to try and make sure that people properly understood the issues. It is very costly to make sure that the information we feel people need to have is available pretty broadly. During that insurance reform debate last fall the insurance industry and the trial lawyers association, and other interested parties, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in promoting their views of the issue.

We did manage to come up with the extra $20,000 for those kinds of purposes last year and we budgeted $100,000 for those purposes this year because if we do get into substantial automobile insurance reform and if we bring in cell phone legislation and this impaired driving legislation, we have to make sure that people properly understand what is being proposed. So, we have additional resources for that this year. It will not be enough, but it will enable us to do a better job than we have done in the past.

MR. J. BYRNE: Another issue, with respect to the Treasury Board, this year in their budget - well before the Budget, I suppose - they introduced a reduction in salaries across all departments. How has that impacted upon your department?

MR. NOEL: We made the required reductions of 5 per cent in salaries and 8 per cent in operations - was it?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. NOEL: That has been implemented for this year in our department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did people go out the door or is it through attrition, or what is it?

MR. NOEL: Nobody went out the door. No, it is through attrition and trying to get people to double up on their activities and not filling a few vacancies that were in the system.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's move on to a few more. With respect to Crown land, a few years ago the department decided to put a lot of pressure on people to buy out their leases and convert them to grants. What is the status on that now, with respect to the number of leases that are still in the system versus the number of grants that have been issued?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Parrott maybe can address that.

MR. PARROTT: There has been approximately 8,500 grants issued since 1996.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eighty-five hundred since 1996?

MR. PARROTT: Yes, and the process now, on titles for Crown land, is basically a five-year payoff. Leases are in effect for five years and rental is 20 per cent of market value. At the end of five years, if development has gone ahead, then a grant is issued.

MR. J. BYRNE: Have the revenues with respect to the department of Crown Lands with this new policy in place - is the department now coming or - what is the right way of putting it, I suppose - developing into a situation where they are self-sufficient with revenues versus expenses, type of thing; the Crown lands division?

MS WAKEHAM: There is always a lag in the amount of money that is available through collection of fees. We have some outstanding fees that are left but, by and large, the revenue that is generated by Crown lands is greater than the revenue required in order to be able to carry out the functions of that particular branch.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you run that by me again?

MS WAKEHAM: We make more money than we are actually spending to collect it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS WAKEHAM: So in order to do our job, we are making more money from Crown lands than we actually spend to other departments.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the whole division though, I mean, you have Crown lands, you have the administration of lands -

MS WAKEHAM: Surveys and mapping.

MR. J. BYRNE: You have the mapping, geodetic mapping. You have the - what do you call it?

MS WAKEHAM: Crown land. We have land management, Crown lands, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, you are saying that whole section now is taking in more money. I am thinking about the salaries and all these things to run the whole show. They are actually taking in more money now in revenues than it is costing to operate?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? That is interesting.

MR. NOEL: We are generally a great revenue generator for government.

MR. J. BYRNE: I did not realize that government was in the business of being a generator of revenues to that extent. People are paying their taxes and they have to get some service for their taxes. They should not have to pay for everything. I remember going in now to a government office and you want a copy of something, you pay fifty cents or a dollar for it. I mean we are paying taxes for certain services, in my mind.

Anyway, with respect to the - and I asked you this question before, a few years ago. Maybe when you were deputy minister. You were Deputy Minister of Crown Lands before, I think, a few years ago.

MS WAKEHAM: In 1996 and 1997.

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Lands Registry and the Registry of Deeds, has there been any discussion or talks about combining both registries and have all lands in the one office, type of thing, or all dealings with lands in the one office? I know you had the Registry of Deeds and companies, and what have you, downstairs but the Crown Lands Registry itself - combine them all? Combine both?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I guess that discussion has been ongoing for at least ten or fifteen years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where are we now with it?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I think one of the biggest problems is because we do not have mandatory registration, and without mandatory registration it would not make any - you could combine the two registries but you still would not have the data because it is not mandatory at this point in time. So, you would miss whole blocks of people who had not registered. What we are trying to do is make sure that our data - and we are transferring all of the Crown lands data now into computer systems. So there has been much easier access. The next link would be to access the same data, computer-wise, over in Crown registries so that at some point or other we can have that linkage, but we are not there today. We are still dealing with it but we are not there today.

MR. J. BYRNE: It does not preclude the fact that there could be a phase-in of that type of thing. You are saying that there have been no decisions made, but I am just wondering if there have been discussions with respect to combining both the Registry of Deeds and the Crown Lands Registry, a year or two, or five years down the road? Do you have a plan in place that somewhere down the road they would come together? I know there is a problem with respect to - compulsory. There is no mandatory registration of deeds but is there a point in time where that could actually come into play, where there would be, at a certain point in time, to require people to do that?

MS WAKEHAM: There has not been a discussion, that I am aware of, where government is prepared at this point in time to make mandatory registration. There were two or three studies that were undertaken. I guess one was done in the late 1980s and probably early 1990s. We had a number of people look at what the cost would be to try and combine both registries. It was a fairly significant cost that would take probably over ten years in order to be able to do it. A decision was not taken to go in that direction.

With the new technology that we have right now - and I am saying because these studies were done previously, back in the 1980s - and with the digitizing of the maps and with the information that we have, we are probably going to be in a position without going through that process of being able to make enough information available where people can do the cross-check that they need. It is not something that is an active project at this point in time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Something completely new now; cameras. I heard a story the other day with respect to traffic lights. On the mainland, I believe, they have cameras on traffic lights for people who go through amber lights or red lights, type of thing, and then they are ticketed. The other day, somewhere in the City of St. John's, a lady went through an amber light, she was seen on camera and the police, from wherever, contacted the street patrol, found the lady and gave her a ticket. Is there anywhere in the City of St. John's, or anywhere, that this is being considered, that cameras be put on traffic lights for that purpose?

MR. NOEL: Did you say that happened here?

MR. J. BYRNE: It happened here in the city.

MR. NOEL: There is no provision for that, that I know of, in the Province anywhere now. The City of St. John's had requested permission to be able to do that, but in order to do it they want to have an increase in fines so that they would get enough revenues themselves to finance the cost of the camera system. It is calculated that would require fines in the area of $125 per ticket. If we were to permit that, it would mean that those fines would apply throughout the Province. You have to have uniform fines for everybody, and every municipality in the Province. I do not know how acceptable that would be to other municipalities. In addition to that, it would also have to apply to fines for going through stop signs, not just red lights, because they are both treated the same for legal purposes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do I understand you to say that the city has applied for permission to do this?

MR. NOEL: Several years ago, the city asked the Province to bring in legislation to enable them to do this. Nothing has happened on it, primarily because of that complication. As a matter of fact, we are in the process of having a look at it again now. I am not sure where that is going to lead, but I think that would be a difficult thing, to get parts of the Province who do not want to have that kind of technology to accept, to see their fines increase from - what are they now, $50?

WITNESS: Forty-five dollars.

MR. NOEL: Forty-five dollars or something now, to the area of $125.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, the city could not -

MR. NOEL: The city could not do it on its own. It can only -

MR. J. BYRNE: - have, at this point in time, a test light or camera in any traffic light or stop sign within the city?

MR. NOEL: No. I do not know what they - I suppose they would be free to go up and set up a camera and do what they want with the results that the camera would produce, but they would not be able, for instance, to charge people higher penalties, as people who got convicted. They could not be convicted on the basis of the camera evidence, I would not think.

MR. J. BYRNE: This person was ticketed.

MR. NOEL: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: This person, I was told, was ticketed.

MR. NOEL: Maybe somebody witnessed them; maybe it was not just based on the camera evidence. My understanding would be that such camera evidence would not be acceptable in our courts under present legislation.

WITNESS: The cheque is in the mail.

MR. J. BYRNE: The ticket is in the mail.

MR. NOEL: It is not a result of anything that we have approved.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On to the next one. With respect to truck spillage, you addressed this, I think, in your introduction. Again, I have some notes. Earlier this spring you had a number of calls on this, and the department was going to enforce it and they extended it to July 1, was it?

MR. NOEL: Yes, July 1.

MR. J. BYRNE: July 1. Some of the problems that were told to me by the trucking industry were with the containers themselves. It is almost impossible to seal them, and the cost involved to do this, to put liners in the trucks.... Then there is another problem with respect to the type of product that you would be hauling with respect to water in the trucks and what have you. They were saying to me at the time: Listen, they brought in these regulations, they are going to enforce them, and basically they did not put in - they did not get the time to do it - the criteria that was put in place with respect to metal liners, fiber glass liners, in the trucks themselves, that type of thing, and that in itself brought in problems, the cost involved. If they put in metal liners, they came back and said, fiberglass liners down the road are okay, or vice versa, that type of thing. I was hearing all kinds of stories. Do you think now that July 1 is going to give people sufficient time to address all those concerns?

MR. NOEL: We had several meetings with representatives of both the trucking and fishing industries and they raised your concerns as their concerns as well. Now they have agreed that this can be done and it can be done economically or within their cost parameters, and they have agreed to see it implemented as of July 1. As of July 1, it will be a condition of licence of the fish exporting companies that they use such trucks.

Now the industry - the trucking industry in particular - indicated that they would like to see the department tell them just how they should outfit their truck. Of course, the department is taking a position that it is not our responsibility. We say what the regulations will be and we leave it to private industry to determine the best way to deal with it. We are in the process of developing some regulations for what would be considered compliant trucks. What we are saying is, this is the standard by which your truck will be required to operate. We are not saying to them that you have to get there in any particular way. We are going to talk about some different options, I suppose, for doing it. Maybe Bill MacKenzie will speak a little more on that.

I have been speaking with a few of the people in the industry recently and I understand that they feel it is going very well. This is a problem that the Province has been working on for several years, and we have not had much success with it. Our objective is to be zero tolerant of trucks that do not endeavour to eliminate spillage. Periodically, even trucks that are properly equipped will have some spills, and we do not intend to give them an unusually hard time as long as it is a result of something not operating properly and not as a result of an operator just not trying to fit out his truck in order to accomplish their objectives.

I do not know if Bill would have anything to say about the particular ideas we have for complying.

MR. MACKENZIE: We are still working on drafts, but these would be amendments to the Load Security Regulations which are under the Highway Traffic Act. They would only speak to the result of a compliant truck. They would not address the technical solution. So, whether it is drip pans, different containers, false bottoms to containers, what have you, we would not get into that so much as long as - the truck would be compliant if it was not actually dripping on the highway. The technical means, we leave to the truckers and the fish processors to decide.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not think the truckers were opposed to it, as such; it was just the time frames. One of the points they did make was: if, say, the inspectors hauled a truck in at Foxtrap, to stop there, at the weigh scales or whatever, and they parked it or they told them to bring it down to wherever they park it, for every day it was there they would be ticketed, day after day after day. That is what they were told.

MR. NOEL: That is the regulation, isn't it?

MR. MACKENZIE: Could you just repeat it, Mr. Byrne? It wasn't clear.

MR. J. BYRNE: Apparently, the truckers were told that if they were hauled in - when it was going to be zero tolerance - they were told to park it wherever (inaudible). That for every day they were there they would get a ticket each day.

MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I am not sure. Of course, we haven't applied that yet because it is not July 1 yet. So we are not quite -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what they were told before you changed it to July 1.

MR. MACKENZIE: It would sound odd. The big issue for the fish truckers, as I understand it, would be the degradation of the load quality while it is parked. The ticket is very small dollars for an offence under this act. This is like a $100 range. The issue is losing the load. So, I suspect it would be more of a threat of having load quality diminish that would impact the trucker, not the ticket level.

CHAIR: I understand Mr. Byrne has some more questions but I think we should probably take a short intermission and reconvene at 8:45 p.m.; to give everybody a stretch.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's up to yourself.

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Chair, (inaudible) Mr. Byrne here is (inaudible) documents.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen; table it.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I want to ask a few questions on Crown lands again, and basically the mapping. You are still putting out mapping contracts each year to the local companies and so on, I am wondering: What is the percentage of local companies doing the mapping versus outside the Province, or are you still doing geodetic mapping at all?

MR. PARROTT: Geodetic mapping?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the mapping; you know, the base mapping that we do all the time or the 1:2500 scale, or whatever the case may be.

MR. PARROTT: Base mapping, the contracts that go out, I believe most of the contracts recently have gone to a Halifax company. The contracts go out through the standard process and that allows all of Atlantic Canada to do the bids. I would have to check it, but I questioned it six or seven months ago and we are not getting bids from local companies.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? There is only one anyway, I suppose, is it?

MR. PARROTT: Yes, there is only one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Cottage developments; (inaudible) was onto this to a certain extent, but how many lots per year? What is the demand there now for cottage development lots?

MR. PARROTT: Well, last year we issued approximately 2,000 leases and licences -

MR. J. BYRNE: With cottages?

MR. PARROTT: No, in total; and of those I would say about 70 per cent were cottages. So there still maintains a high demand on cottages, especially in and around the metropolitan areas, like Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, and St. John's.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would not say there are too many around St. John's available now though, are there?

MR. PARROTT: No, most of the area around the Avalon is restricted use, although we have some developments that will go ahead this summer and they will go by a public draw.

MR. J. BYRNE: On the subheads, page 37, the Minister's Office.

Subhead 1.1.01. I only have about a dozen questions here, so I won't take too long. It depends on your answers I suppose, and the minister has a tendency to give long answers.

MR. NOEL: Is that right? I am sorry about that.

CHAIR: I have already spoken to him about that.

MR. NOEL: We are usually criticized about not saying enough in here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, under the Minister's Office, 06., Purchased Services, you had $8,800 and then you went to $30,000, and then back to $8,800 this year. Why would there be such an increase?

MR. NOEL: Well, that is pretty normal. The previous year, I think, the revised spending was $23,500. That gets underestimated every year, but the primary source of the cost were increases in promotional costs related to the Marconi Celebrations, printing, entertainment, and business meeting costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Earlier I asked a question with respect to the cost of promotion and I think you said $20,000.

MR. NOEL: No, that was advertising. Promotion is like promotional items that you use for giving to - like we had the Marconi Celebrations last year and that sort of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: You made a statement just a minute ago saying that this routine is normal, or whatever the case may be. If you had $8,800 last year and spent $30,000 and you have $8,800 this year and you spent $23,000 the year before, then why didn't you put in a reasonable figure?

MR. NOEL: I think we need to look at how we do the budgeting in that regard and make those changes. I guess that is the kind of practice that has been encouraged throughout the system, but I think we should endeavour to make as a realistic an estimate as we can. Obviously, on the basis of those two figures, that has not been the case.

MR. J. BYRNE: Exactly.

Under Executive Support, 1.2.01, Salaries, you budgeted $642,000 and spent $745,000, which is $103,000 more, and it is back to $635,000 this year. Why would that be like that? Why would there be such an increase?

MR. NOEL: From the $642,000 to the $745,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. NOEL: Due to the reallocation of approved information technology funding which was provided for the development and maintenance of the department's Web site. This funding was used to maintain two temporary positions who are involved in the implementation of the initiative. In addition to that, the allocation of Organization Development Initiative, ODI funding. This funding provides 50 per cent of the salary for senior policy planning and research analysts.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that it?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: ODI.

MR. NOEL: Organization Development Initiative.

MR. J. BYRNE: There were some questions in the House of Assembly a week or two ago on this with respect to the department. Is there an actual amount allocated for your department with respect to ODI?

MR. NOEL: I think the deputy can give you a better answer on that.

MS WAKEHAM: The ODI funding for 2002-2003 has not been allocated yet, so we do not have an allocation. What happens is that we have basically unfunded or 50 per cent funded in our salary vote for our positions and ODI will cover the rest of it. So right now we are funding these positions, the two technology people and the other person is in our policy and planning.

ODI is a fund that is under Treasury Board. Basically what happens, normally we get the funding around July or August after they go through the requirements for everybody. There is a certain allocation that is made available to each of the departments, based on their training needs; but that has not been decided so far this year yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, under Treasury Board there would be a fund, an x amount of dollars - it might $1 million, $2 million, $5 million, $10 million, I do not know - for all government and then you have to dip into that and it is allocated at a later date. Is that what you are saying?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes. Last year our appropriations for strategic organization of last year - this is under Treasury Board. You will see in 3.1.08., Treasury Board, there was $500,000 and then there was money put in for Professional Service, Purchased Services. So, if you look on page 25, under Executive Council, you will see it there as an appropriation. That appropriation is there as a block and then, based on the activities of each department, an allocation is given to each of the departments for training initiatives.

MR. J. BYRNE: The $500,000 you mentioned?

MS WAKEHAM: No, the total here, if you look on page 25 of your budget, under Treasury Board, Executive Council, you will see the total fund is $2 million. That is what it was last year and that is what it was the year before and the year before and the year before, but the actual allocation per department has not been decided. You will not see it in our vote; you will only see it in Treasury Board's.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On the next page, page 38, under 2.1.01., Trade Practices and Licensing, 06., Purchased Services, you had $7,600, you spent $12,600, and this year you have $111,000. Why such an increase? What are these Purchased Services?

MR. NOEL: Due to additional advertising required due to consumer issues and an increase in printing costs. Remember when you were asking me about advertising before, and I said we set aside an extra $100,000 this year? This is why the figure has gone up to $111,000 for this year's estimate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under 2.1.03., on the same page, Residential Tenancies, 01., Salaries, you budgeted $389,800 last year and you spent $443,100. Why would that be?

MR. NOEL: Salary increases resulted from the filling of an unfunded position and the reclassification of seven positions retroactive to December, 1999, to A seven position.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is that, A seven position?

MS WAKEHAM: There were seven positions that went through a reclassification process, and the department is required to pick up the cost when those reclassifications are done. That is what the increase is.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 39, Commercial Registrations, 2.1.05., under Purchased Services again, you have $1,185,000, you spent $1,009,000, and you have $500,000 this year. What were the services and why the 50 per cent decrease?

MR. NOEL: If I were to undertake that explanation, you would really be here for a long time tonight, so I will let the Deputy answer that.

MS WAKEHAM: We entered into a contract with Unysis to put in new property; it is called PPSA. It is Personal Property Security Registry. It was computerized. Unysis and xwave picked up the cost of the capital improvements based on them receiving the money, the revenue for the registrations, back to cover that capital cost. What you see here is a breakdown of the actual cost and then coming back. There are no real monies in and out. This is basically just for purposes of expenditure.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, to install it is $1 million and to operate it is $500,000? Is that right?

MS WAKEHAM: No. What happened is, there was an overall cost for putting the system in place and, as the revenue is generated, that revenue goes back under an agreement to Unysis and xwave, and a portion of it comes back to us.

MR. NOEL: Got that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Unysis. You know, about ten to fifteen years ago, when I was in private business, I was up to some conferences with respect to geographic information systems and all that kind of stuff. It was that long ago that I wanted to get into that field - Bill would know a lot about that type of stuff, too, I would imagine - and we didn't. I couldn't talk my buddies into it. Anyway, so be it.

MR. NOEL: That was the previous Administration, was it, that was responsible for...?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no. It had nothing to do with government. This was in private industry. My own partners in business, I am talking about.

On page 40, Securities Administration, subhead 2.1.06., Salaries, you budgeted $263,000, spent $238,000, which was less than what you had budgeted, but this year you want $371,200 when you have a hiring freeze on. Explain that.

MR. NOEL: We were providing $100,000 for the hiring of the new positions, the education co-ordinator and the financial examiner.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought there was going to be a hiring freeze.

MR. NOEL: No, we never said there was a hiring freeze.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right?

MR. NOEL: We said, when this first came up last fall, that the Finance Minister asked all the departments to look at all openings to make sure that any new hires were essential, but there is no suggestion that we will not hire new positions that are approved in the budgetary process. That is what has happened in these two cases.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Thank you.

Under Administration, subhead 3.1.01., Salaries, 01., you had $766,000, budgeted $852,000, spent an extra $86,000. Why would that be?

MR. NOEL: Salary costs increased due to summer students not being funded, severance pay to the former Registrar, and the Deputy Registrar position not being fully funded.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why wouldn't it have been fully funded?

MR. NOEL: Because, in the case of the Deputy Registrar, a new person was moved into that position. That was an unanticipated move, and that person was at a higher salary level than was budgeted for the position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Page 42, License and Registration Processing, again, under Salaries, there is an extra $200,000; $190,000 or so.

MR. NOEL: Yes, that was due to unfunded overtime, unfunded summer students and unfunded positions. Unfunded situations only occur if sufficient flexibility exists within the overall divisional budget. So the financing, the source of the funds, came from within the division. It was not a new expenditure for the division, or an increased expenditure for the division.

MR. J. BYRNE: Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

MR. NOEL: Yes, that sometimes makes good sense.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mentioned unfunded students and unfunded someone else, why would you not budget for that?

MR. NOEL: I guess it was anticipated that they would not be needed, and in the course of the year it was determined that they were required. Is that...?

MS WAKEHAM: First of all, summer students are not funded anyway. That is only if you have flexibility within your budget, because you have delays in hiring positions when you are going through the process so you have some flexibility, so students are never funded. There is not an allocation for students per se. It is the same way with overtime situations. You can put a budget in, but if you get into a crisis situation and you have to have more overtime, you have to look within your budget to be able to find it. Sometimes, if people get sick or a person is going to be out for X period of time, there is no money for temporary positions either; so what you do, basically, is hire somebody for a short period of time until that person comes back.

These are unanticipated things that you cannot really put into your salary vote.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On the same page, subhead 3.1.04., under National Safety Code, 07., Property, Furnishing and Equipment, you budgeted $47,000, you spent $90,000, and now you have $116,100 for this year. It is a dramatic increase. Why is that, for Property, Furnishings and Equipment?

MR. NOEL: Last year's increase was due to the purchase of two additional replacement vehicles that were not budgeted for.

MR. J. BYRNE: And what about this year?

MR. NOEL: This year the increase results from the signing of a new funding agreement with the federal government. These funds will be used to purchase three replacement vehicles. So we are going to get some help with it.

MS WAKEHAM: This is 100 per cent federally funded, the National Safety Code we administered on behalf of the federal government. There are eighteen highway enforcement officers. The money is being used to replace the vehicles that they have in order to be able to carry out the safety code audits that are required.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 43, Regional Services, 3.2.02.01., Salaries, you budgeted $4,730,000, spent $4,600,00, and now it is up to $5,146,000, which is roughly $500,000 more. Why would that be such an increase there?

MS WAKEHAM: The salary increase relates to the creation that we talked about, the seven new Environmental Health Officer positions for the water testing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 45, Crown Land, 4.1.01.01., Salaries, you budgeted $2,211,000, spent $2,305,000; $200,000 more roughly. Why is that now?

MS WAKEHAM: That is a reclassification of positions over in Crown Lands and we have to cover the cost of these.

MR. J. BYRNE: Deserved; I know they deserve it.

MS WAKEHAM: They deserved it, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 46, Geomatics Agreements, there is a section there, Salaries, Professional Services, you had nothing budgeted but you had $25,000 and $255,000. Then in Purchased Services you had $370,000 budgeted, you spent $90,000, and then you have $370,000 budgeted this year. Can you explain the whole thing there?

MS WAKEHAM: Again, this is federal government money that we have on the Geomatics Agreement. The $25,000 salary cost was due to filling an unfunded position when we needed some assistance with one of the projects that we had.

Professional Services costs, they increase depending on how much work we are getting done with the mapping that is required in terms of the projects that we have. That varies from year to year. There is no way that we can even anticipate how much is going to be required. It depends on how quickly we move with each of the projects, and we have other partners that are involved with that.

Purchased Services, they are supply costs, basically, in terms of doing the projects themselves. What can I say? That varies, depending on how quickly we move with each of the projects. The money is set aside in order to do things, but how quickly you move really depends on how quickly the project moves with its partners.

MR. J. BYRNE: That $370,000 that you had budgeted last year, in the column there, was revised, the total of $370,000 also, but that $255,000 for Professional Services, exactly what did you say that was?

MS WAKEHAM: Professional Services costs, they increase during the year because these vary, depending on how many people we have to bring in in order to do certain services on the projects. So, it is very difficult. When we put a contract out the contract may be delayed in moving, or we may have a special thing that we need to do in that particular year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Would that be actually, for example, for tenders called to do the digital mapping?

MS WAKEHAM: Some digital mapping, yes, depending on what we have to require. We have some base mapping and things that are done.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank the minister for his answers, and his staff. I appreciate your time here tonight. I am finished.

CHAIR: The question has been called. I will ask Elizabeth to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05 carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I guess the next thing is a motion to adjourn.

WITNESS: I don't think we did those.

CHAIR: Just one little bit of housekeeping. Sorry, folks.

The minutes of the Government Services Committee for April 29. Can I have a motion to adopt?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, thank you and your staff very much for coming by this evening and helping us through the process.

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It has been a great pleasure. I really enjoyed the evening. I thank all the members of the Committee for being so kind to us and so understanding of the objectives we are trying to achieve.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the Committee as well for being so cooperative.

On motion, the Committee adjourned at 9:15 p.m.