The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Matthews): Order, please!

(Inaudible) Estimates Committee hearing for the Department of Government Services and Lands. Before we move to introductions and into the examination of the Estimates this evening, we need to deal with the minutes from the last Government Services Committee meeting, and I would ask for a motion that we accept the minutes as circulated.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: This evening we are going to deal with the Estimates of Government Services and Lands. We are pleased to have the minister, who is going to answer all the questions with the able assistance of his officials, some of whom I know very well and some of whom I do not know at all but will get to know as the evening moves forward.

Without any further ado, I will ask the Committee members to introduce themselves and then, Minister, I would ask you to have your staff introduce themselves. We will follow the standard format of the minister being afforded up to fifteen minutes for introductory remarks. The Vice-Chair will then take fifteen minutes to respond, and then we will go in time allocations of ten minutes each. You may speak as Committee members or question the minister and his staff as often as you wish, for as long as you wish, bearing in mind that we normally allocate three hours for those meetings, and further bearing in mind that if we got out in a more timely fashion, I think it would be acceptable to at least the Chair and maybe to others who might be in the room, but we will not rush it. We will do due diligence to our business.

Deputy Chair, if you would like to start the introductions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for Conception Bay South.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MS KELLY: Sandra Kelly, MHA for Gander District.

MR. McLEAN: Ernie McLean, MHA for Lake Melville.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's South.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister.

MR. SWEENEY: George Sweeney, Minister.

To my left is Barbara Wakeham, Deputy Minister; Bill McKenzie, Assistant Deputy Minister; Bill Parrott, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands; Wayne Moores, Manager of Financial Operations; and Jeff Mackey, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Okay, Minister, we will afford you up to fifteen minutes, if you want to take that amount of time, to introduce your department's budgetary estimates, and then we will proceed as we have indicated.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will begin with a brief description of the department. Government Services and Lands consists of three separate branches: Government Services; Consumer and Commercial Affairs; and Lands. The department has about 500 employees who provide a wide range of services in various regions throughout the Province. We administer more than eighty-five acts and process approximately 1.5 million client transactions, and we generate approximately $83 million for government.

Our Government Services Branch provides accessible and efficient services to the public and business community in the areas of public health and safety, highway safety, driver and vehicle registrations, building accessibility, vital statistics, controlled use of land, and environmental standards enforcement. The branch includes Government Service Centres, Vital Statistics, and Motor Registration.

Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch is responsible for ensuring that consumer interests and commerce is facilitated. This branch includes commercial registries, insurance and pensions, residential tenancies, securities, trade practices and licencing, and Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation.

Our Lands Branch manages the Province's Crown land, which is 95 per cent of the Province. It processes applications to acquire or use Crown Lands, archives, Crown title documents, and distributes maps and land related information. The branch includes: Crown Lands, Land Management, and Surveys and Mapping.

Our department has a wide range of duties and responsibilities. I believe we do a good job, and we are constantly endeavoring to do more, particularly in improving consumer protection and awareness. We believe that collaboration and consultation are important for providing services. We make every effort to work in partnership with our internal and external clients, and try to find new and more effective ways to carry out our responsibilities and serve the citizens of our Province.

I would like to highlight a few of the current initiatives in the department by branch, beginning with Government Services. As you all know, this winter the Town of Badger experienced severe flooding caused by ice on three conversing rivers.

Officials from the Government Services Branch were on site with emergency measures officials from day one to assess the situation. During the various phases of the emergency and now the clean up, departmental officials have been at the site. This department had the responsibility to inspect domestic and recreation vehicle and other fuel tanks in the community. These inspections and assessments were often done in poor working conditions. The inspectors should be commended for the work that they have done.

Last year the Government Services Branch hired seven additional environmental health officers to test water quality in public water supplies. These officers are certified inspectors who take samples from the tap end of the supply. We hired six Newfoundland students last summer who had been studying environmental health at the University College of Cape Breton. All six, I am pleased to say, are employed now with us as environmental health officers.

Last year we switched almost all lab testing to public health labs in hospitals instead of by our staff in office labs in the field. This has enabled our inspectors to take additional samples throughout the Province rather than spending time in the lab. This increase in funding to hire the environmental health officers is part of the government's larger effort to ensure continued safe drinking water throughout the Province in concert with Health and Community Services, Environment, and Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Each of these departments had also received budget increases to deal with water quality issues in last year's budget.

Our Government Services Branch acts on behalf of the Department of Environment with respect to spill response situations. We have eleven environmental protection officers deployed throughout the Province to respond to these situations. These staff monitor, on a rotating shift basis, the Canadian Coast Guard environmental emergency line twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. Because some feel that the government should be cleaning up spills, I think it is important to note that the polluter pays for the cleanup of spills and not the taxpayer. No one may pollute with impunity.

We have recently placed two staff persons to take care of the used oil recycling program which became law today, April 1. These staff are situated in St. John's and Corner Brook and will be responsible for implementing the program, along with the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board and the Department of Environment.

The Motor Vehicle Registration division's e-commerce application for motor vehicle registration renewals now handles over 10 per cent of all vehicle renewals via the Internet. We are in the process of setting up a similar Internet-based application allowing vehicle dealers to register their sales directly with Motor Registration.

As you may be aware, in July, 1999, the Government of Canada amended the criminal code to increase the federal period of prohibition from driving for impaired offenders. In addition, the criminal code now permits judges to include provisions for reduction of the prohibition periods where iginition interlock programs are present in a province's legislation. Many jurisdictions have also implemented some severe penalties for repeat offenders and introduced vehicle impoundment for drivers found driving in violation of a suspension.

In response to the federal changes a committee was established to review existing penalties for persons convicted of alcohol offences. This committee consists of representatives from safety, government and police groups. Their mandate was to review and propose options in five major areas of driver management as follows: driver licence suspension periods; administration suspensions; education, assessment and treatment; vehicle seizure or impoundment; and interlock devices. These areas represent the major issues impacting persons convicted of alcohol related offences and also represent areas that other jurisdictions have focused attention on in the past several years to reduce impaired driving.

Last year a bill was put before the Legislature to amend the Highway Traffic Act to incorporate changes recommended by this committee to increase suspension periods, introduce an ignition interlock pilot project, and provide for vehicle seizure and impoundment. This legislation would make our laws among the toughest in the country. Regulations are currently drafted and shall be completed soon.

This week a ban came into effect to eliminate the use of hand-held cellphones while driving. We have researched the use of cellphones by drivers, reviewed legislative initiative elsewhere and acted in the interest of the public. There are limits on human concentration and a drivers use of a hand-held cellphone for dialing and talking results in less attention being paid to driving. We have only banned hand-held cellphones at this time, but we, in no way, have advocated the use of hands-free. The safest alternative is to pull over to make and receive calls, or wait until reaching a destination to make calls. I think I have gone through this so often in the past few days now, I am doing it from memory.

I would like to move on to initiatives such as the Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch. Following a period of consultation, the department issued a consultation paper on Automobile Insurance Reform in the fall of 2001. This paper contained fifty-one proposals which would reform insurance for the benefit of the consumer. Officials in the department then analyzed these proposals and we drafted Bill 28 for the House of Assembly last fall. The bill did not pass during that session of the House, and died on the Order Paper last month. There are many good initiatives contained in Bill 28. Many of the changes are meant to make insurance companies more accountable to policyholders and the government. One example, to which many of us can relate, is the driver who lapses their insurance. As it currently stands, a driver who gives up their insurance for a period of time and tries to get covered must begin as a first-time driver paying very high rates. The legislation would allow government to intervene in this case.

Last year government also passed a bill which allowed for the appointment of an advocate to represent consumers' interests at public utility board automobile insurance rate hearings. This is another of the proposals contained in the consultation. During the consultation process consumers sent us a clear message. They did not think that their interests were being fully considered by the parties involved and many indicated a clear mistrust in the overall automobile insurance rate setting process. Government heard these concerns and they responded to them. Both New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are presently in the consultation processes and many of the issues of Bill 28 are reflected in these consultations. Our department has made a commitment to do more in the area of public education. We hired an educational coordinator to develop consumer education programs for insurance and other financial areas such as: investments, pensions, real estate, and prepaid funerals. Also, additional funding has been provided for the development, printing and promoting of consumer education material.

Last year's budget provided for a new financial examiner for a securities commission to provide enhanced monitoring of activities in this area. It is necessary because more and more consumers are investing in mutual funds, the stock markets and educational funds. We found out there are approximately 5,000 registrants selling securities in this Province.

On another consumer issue, I have continued to explore high credit card interest rates. The previous minister had written to the federal minister responsible for consumer affairs asking for action to be taken on exorbitant credit card interest rates, and I intend to carry that issue forward again in the next few months. Considering the fact that interest rates are still at historically low levels, rates charged on some credit cards seem to be excessively high. Given the reluctance by card issuers to lower the rates, the federal government must review this matter to determine how consumers might be better protected.

April is Financial Awareness Month. Our department has many activities planned for this year, which include a Web site. We are having an educational display to be erected in shopping malls starting soon and other projects as well. This project is undertaken in partnership with the North American Securities Administrators Association and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St. John's. Financial literacy is essential to the financial stability of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We want to ensure citizens are in a position to make well-informed, educated decisions about where and how they invest and manage their personal outcomes.

Finally, last but not least, a quick look at our Lands Branch. The Lands Branch has successfully implemented phase one for provincial-wide application processing and a Crown titles registry system. The new system has enhanced decision-making and provides access to all land applications entitle data at all regional offices. Previously, only regional information on application was available in a given area. To expand on this process, this year we will be linking the applicant and titles data basis to our GIS electronic maps and creating an application layer. When completed, a client will be able to visit any of our Lands offices to view the land title and the application maps of any location in the Province. The computerization of the land use atlas, which is twenty-one layers of land use data, and our ongoing scanning of Crown documents will further enhance the management of the Crown land resource and the service quality to our clients at all our offices.

A number of cost-sharing projects have recently been completed with the federal government GeoConnections program. One was the collection and interdepartmental distribution of administration boundary data. A second project has enhanced the integration of mapping data within government. My officials are currently exploring new opportunities for partnering with the federal government to further enhance the integration of the Province's mapping data sets. All federal maps at the scale of 1 to 50,000, and 1 to 250,000, have been converted to digital format and are made available throughout government on a single data server. This has eliminated tremendous duplication and the maps will soon be available for public viewing on the Internet. Cost-sharing projects with municipalities and public utilities are ongoing to replace outdated maps and create new maps. Approximately 150 map sheets are added to provincial inventory per year. New projects this year will be in the Bay of Islands and Northeast Avalon.

In the field of Land Management, my officials continue the development of area plans to facilitate the orderly development of cottage developments in conjunction with other government resource management departments and the pulp and paper industry.

Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you very much for this opportunity. I welcome any suggestions or questions that you might have.

CHAIR: Thank you.

I will now call head 1.1.01 and we will commence the debate. I would remind all members participating in the committee, and from the minister's staff, I think it is necessary to identify yourselves each time you are speaking for purposes of the recording process.

Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the minister on his recent appointment as Minister of Government Services and Lands. Just for your own information, it is a department that I worked with for seven years a few years ago. As a matter of fact, I worked with Bill Parrott many moons ago. I am going to ask a few questions with respect to your comments and then maybe get into the actual numbers themselves in the Estimates.

With respect to the cellphone legislation that was first implemented today, I am just wondering: Are there any negotiations or talks with the insurance companies to see - in the future would the insurance rates actually drop because of the - should be - reduced number of accidents related to cellphones?

MR. SWEENEY: I have spent the past month meeting with insurance companies. It has been, pretty well, an open line of communication between the department and, I think, every insurance broker and provider in the country, and meetings are still ongoing. As this is day one, we are hoping to see some notes with results. So, there is potential, we hope, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the comment on hands-free, you said: the department is not advocating the use of hands-free cellphones. I am just wondering, how far could we go with something like this? I have a hands-free, I have been using it for the past year or so actually. It is voice activated. I just say home or office, whatever the case may be, and the number will ring for me. But to talk about barring hands-free, I mean, that is probably not as distractive as having someone sitting in the car next to you and talking back and forth to the individual, or you had a cup of coffee on your lap, or whatever the case may be. I do not know if the department is actually considering barring hands-free?

MR. SWEENEY: At this point in time there is no desire to ban hands-free. There have been a number of questions raised in the past few days, as you might be well aware. As somebody said to me yesterday: Well, what is the difference between a cellphone to your ear or a cup of coffee? Well, chances are, going to work or going for groceries, or going somewhere, you might only have one cup of coffee but using the cellphone, you might make twenty calls. Each time you reach for that phone and start dialing, obviously, it is more of a distraction. Hopefully, we will deter from that.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mention motor vehicle registration, is there any consideration given - and I thought I heard somebody say some time ago - with respect to bringing back motor vehicle inspections? It was cut out a few years ago. I am just wondering, are there any talks of reimplementing motor vehicle inspections on vehicles over two, three or four years old, whatever the case may be, for licencing?

MR. SWEENEY: No, not really. I think you have to keep something in mind, that motor vehicle inspections have never been done away with. They have never been eliminated. Every time there is a transaction between a garage or a personal sale, vehicles are inspected.

MR. J. BYRNE: If I had a car and had it for four or five years, then car is getting older. That is what I am thinking about, because garages, if they are selling you a car, for their own protection they are going to have inspections done anyway.

MR. SWEENEY: And the same argument would apply, if you own a car that is four or five years old you would make sure it was maintained and in good running condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Most people would, but there are a lot of people don't, I would say.

Another point with respect to motor vehicle registration and insurance companies. We know - and you mentioned in your lead in - that some people will get their insurance to get their licence, and then cancel their insurance after. Are there any negotiations going on between the insurance companies and Motor Vehicle Registration that once that person cancels their insurance it is automatically put into the Motor Registration Division so their licence will be also cancelled?

MR. SWEENEY: At present there is no system in place, as there are in most provinces, but we are trying to come up with a reasonably price solution to it.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I was going to ask you next. Are there any costs done up on this, any costing?

MR. SWEENEY: Barb.

MS WAKEHAM: Ontario has a pilot project out now with the insurance companies so that when insurance lapses they can do the registration with their motor vehicle registration. That pilot is still ongoing. We are waiting to see what the results of that are. Depending on what the cost implications are, then we will look at that kind of a system for application here. Right now we have nothing in place, but there is one province actually doing a pilot.

MR. J. BYRNE: We will let someone create the wheel first.

MS WAKEHAM: Ontario has a heck of a lot more money than we do.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not saying we should not. I am just saying probably a smart thing to do is let them do it first and have a look at what they did.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, and we are in constant contact with them in regard to their pilot.

MR. J. BYRNE: You also mentioned seven additional water inspectors. Is seven sufficient to handle the workload within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, or do we need more?

MR. McKENZIE: With the seven, that now gives us thirty-six positions. Beyond water, they are also doing the food establishment inspections, septic systems and so on. With the addition of the seven, now to thirty-six, we are pretty well meeting the Canadian guidelines of sampling. We needed those additional seven, but we are pretty well there now.

MR. J. BYRNE: With the geography of the Province and the way the population is spread out, would there be more inspectors in the urban areas than, for example, a more rural area? I am just thinking about the travel time or what have you.

MR. McKENZIE: There are nine inspectors in St. John's; four in Harbour Grace; three in Clarenville; one in Marystown; one in Grand Bank; three in Gander; three in Grand Falls; one in Lewisporte; one in Springdale, St. Anthony, Rocky Harbour; three in Corner Brook; two in Stephenville; one in Port aux Basques, and two in Goose Bay.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, that is (inaudible).

MR. McKENZIE: We cover it all, yes. As I say, because we are doing things like food establishments we are doing a lot in St. John's, Harbour Grace and the Northeast Avalon.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the food establishments, probably two or three years ago - I think the Auditor General addressed that in her report - the food inspections of all the different restaurants and that. There were some serious - what is the right word? - I will not say breaches, but there certainly were not enough inspections being done because they just did not have the staff to do it. Has that improved to an acceptable standard now do you think?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, I think we are pretty well there. We are supposed to do - up until this new year - one a year, no matter what the establishment. We are doing this on behalf of the Department of Health. They have shifted to a risk-based approach now. Something like a convenience store might only get inspected every two years, whereas a place like Hotel Newfoundland might be quarterly or so on. With the additional staff we are pretty well up to speed on that as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: That kind of leads me - I am jumping around a bit, I know, but I am just going through a few jot notes when you were speaking. You talked about the spill response. Something came to my mind when you spoke of that, and that was the spill up in Gros Morne probably two or three summers ago. It went out into the ocean and you had to put in berm and all of this. That was cleaned up. Has that been followed up on and is everything fine there now?

MR. McKENZIE: I have not heard anything recently on it. I think where it was essentially federal land, federal officials and Parks Canada handled that and did an excellent cleanup from what I understand, but I have not heard anything recently on it.

MR. J. BYRNE: It was there for some time.

MR. McKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Crown Land, how many applications do you get a year now in Crown Lands and how many will be actually processed per year?

MR. PARROTT: We get approximately 3,500 applications a year. All those applications are processed to various stages. Because of the nature they come in throughout the year, some of them are finalized in that year and others are in various stages of processing. We have a turnaround rate of - as an application comes in, we try to have it screened and registered within a week to ten days.

MR. J. BYRNE: Registered and then it has to be processed, the title prepared and sent out and what have you?

MR. PARROTT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is the normal time frame for that these days?

MR. PARROTT: I believe the normal time frame now within the department is forty days, but that can stretch out. There is a time frame for referral throughout the various government departments tacked onto that. The applicant has a year to get it surveyed. That can be extended out to another year on request. There could be difficulties in the survey or in the boundaries, or things like that. Each individual application is on its own merits, but the standard average is we try to have it processed within thirty to forty days.

MR. J. BYRNE: You also mentioned maps and documents being put on the net and having access through the Internet. How far along are you on that? I know the Registry of Deeds falls under the Department of Justice. I have often questioned before with respect to combining the Registry of Deeds and Crown Lands Registry and having access to it all without having to come in and actually do the search in here. How far along are we on that?

MR. SWEENEY: We have a registry in deeds now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I did not realize that. When did this happen?

MS WAKEHAM: Since 1996.

MR. J. BYRNE: That long ago! Where have I been? In the meantime -

WITNESS: It is only you who can answer that question.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have not been at the surveying since then.

Can engineering companies, surveying companies, law firms, or whatever the case may be, go into the net and do their searching outside, say from their office, versus having to come into the building and do it?

MR. PARROTT: For Crown Lands or the Registry of Deeds, the answer is no. In the Crown Lands Registry we have computerized all of the data basis on the information on the title documents. We have also computerized the base maps. Those are available now at five regional offices throughout the Province. So we are probably a little bit farther along than the Registry of Deeds that is available throughout the Province. The next step is to upload this information into the Internet so anybody would be able to access it. It is a very expensive process - the fire walls, the securities, vulnerabilities. The minister referred to in his opening remarks, we are in the process now of scanning the documents, the actual grants, leases and licences. These will be tied into the maps so you will be able to view both. This will be at the regional offices of course first and then throughout government.

MR. J. BYRNE: What kind of dollars are we talking about to do that, to get it up and running so people outside the building could actually have access? I know there will probably be a fee charge (inaudible).

MR. PARROTT: We have not gone as far as to look at the Internet because you are looking at security assessments, et cetera. I believe the security assessments and things like that are probably in the $50,000 to $60,000 range, but you have to have the documents scanned, which we are doing. So much is being done in-house and so much would be done on contracts, depending on availability. All the work in creating GIS was done in-house by our own people - highly skilled people, I might add - to put together the program they have. Of course everything is being done with a view to making it accessible throughout the Province.

MS WAKEHAM: I will answer the question on the Registry of Deeds, because we are much further behind on that. We have just finished doing the sculpting analysis for a new custom made computer system for deeds and we will start that process within the next month or so, and hopefully we will be having registration of deeds on-line come next April or May.

MR. J. BYRNE: I can see that, but there must be a tremendous amount of workload dollars to go to Registry of Deeds down here and get all the deeds that go back to whenever, hundreds of years back, and actually scan them, or whatever way you would do it, and put them into the system. Has there been any cost done on that, what it would actually cost to do that, or would you plan to do it in-house through, say, Crown Lands, or something?

MS WAKEHAM: No, it would be doing their own system. Certainly we are looking at, downstream, having the two system, two registries, interconnected. Now, whether or not they use the same system or they use a linking mechanism, so that you can just hit a folder and hit the Crown titles data, that is another thing.

Basically, what we are doing with the deeds and the companies, because both systems are going to be upgraded, is that we are working out a deal the same way we worked out a deal with the personal property securities where we had the company do the thing up front and we just paid off, amortized it, through the revenue stream over a period of years. So, we will be doing the same thing. I did not bring the figures with me for the actual cost for the deeds and companies but it has been costed out and the process is going ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: So progress is being made.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just one other thing from your lead-in was the credit card interest rates. I do not know if there is anybody who has a credit card who would not be concerned on this issue - and even the banks. The services fees and the charges that the banks are charging, it is getting to be scandalous and ridiculous. What do you expect could be done with respect to the interest rates? You would really think they would come down. What are they charging now, 18 per cent, 20 per cent, maybe?

MR. SWEENEY: Depending on which card you have, I think some of them go up to 18.75 per cent and even beyond that, but there are some that you will get an envelope in the mail offering you a 4.35 per cent or 4.75 per cent six-month special discount, but that is only to get you over to their card and you are back in the same boat again.

It is a major problem for consumers. A lot of people, especially those who are, I guess, caught or victimized by credit cards - I say victimized because everybody loves to have their credit card and if you do not control it on a month-by-month basis.

I guess one of the things that we can do in an effort to lobby the banks and the financial agencies to get their rates down, and the federal minister to help us, is probably spend some of our advertising budget on consumer awareness and the education program.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mentioned that, though, I got the impression, for some reason or other, that you would look to the federal government to possibly - I do not know if this could even be done because you are treading on dangerous ground here, in my mind, because you are talking about -

MR. SWEENEY: Regulating it.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, setting rates at a maximum above - you know, if they are giving you 2 per cent or 3 per cent for your money, and then they are charging, like, 18 per cent for their money, I mean there would be a maximum, like it would be double or triple type of thing. Would you expect government to actually bring in legislation to control that?

MR. SWEENEY: I am not sure you can, really -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am saying to you.

MR. SWEENEY: - because, you know, what you are doing is you take - it is not forced upon you. You are entering into a contract or an agreement with somebody and it is your choice as to what rate you take. I think the biggest problem with that is just getting into recognition that the rates are high and ask the federal minister to look at lobbying with some of the financial institutions. That is about as far as we can probably go with it.

MS WAKEHAM: The Consumer Measures Committee, which is a committee that is set up under the ministers for consumer affairs has been looking at the credit card issue for about eighteen months now. Industry Canada, who is the federal partner with respect to consumer protection, is dealing with these issues like the issues of disclosure for credit.

What we are doing right now is just that they have set up four or five education modules, they have put them on the Net, so that what we are trying to do is, we are trying to get the young kids starting off just to inform them of just what kinds of problems they can run into if they do not have full disclosure of what the costs are going to be in terms of getting that credit card and how to use it in a fiscally responsible manner, so we are doing that. We are also doing a new cost of credit disclosure, so that will force the companies to give all the hidden information because a lot of people do not understand.

We have some places like Canadian Tire that actually have an interest rate of 35 per cent, not 18 per cent, not 24 per cent, 35 per cent on their cards and a lot of people are not aware because there is no disclosure requirements. So we are working on the disclosure part. We cannot regulate how much money you charge for a service, but we can make sure that the companies give full disclosure with respect to the cost incurred by using that card. So that is where the emphasis has been for the ministers of consumer affairs for the last year. We will have cost of credit disclosure legislation coming in probably the fall.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the banks and the rates and the credit cards, whatever the case may be, I think that something has to be done with the services fees and charges. What they are doing is bordering on criminal in my mind.

MS WAKEHAM: It is atrocious.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will give you an example. I have a son in university. He went away to university a few years ago, and we opened an account for him so that he could transfer back money through the Net type of thing, convenient. He is here now going to MUN - tying to keep it as minimum as I can type of thing - and not long ago he went over, you know, overdraft. If you go over $5, they charge you $5. I saw this, so, of course, I balanced it out for him and then a week after on the thing they charged nine cents for the overdraft interest, went into the overdraft by nine cents, and they charged $5 for the nine cents. I mean, that is ridiculous, that is disgusting.

MS WAKEHAM: It is just as disgusting with the automated tellers where they are charging you $2.50 for a transaction on a $20 bill. Your daughter or your son - I have my kids taking money out of the things, too, and it is a real problem, but the thing is that most of the people do not understand. They have not been told what all the hidden fees are associated with different transactions. That is where we are trying to educated the people. Ask a question. Ask the bank when you do something: What is it going to cost me if I do this? That is where we have to get the people - because if the people start understanding what the actual costs are, they will stop using those services and that will force the banks to come down.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am okay for now before I get into the actual Estimates, if somebody else wanted to -

CHAIR: Okay, we will take another intervention, but you can see why Canadian Tire can give away all of that money - 35 per cent.

Terry?

MR. FRENCH: I Just have a couple of questions, actually, not pertaining to the actual numbers. I was just fortunate enough to have 500 litres of fuel delivered to my basement floor, so I have a couple of questions on oil spills.

The minute that the environment is notified of a spill, such as happened at my house, who would be responsible to clean it up? Would you guys insist that someone come immediately?

MR. McKENZIE: This was in your basement, Terry?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: A line broke or something?

MR. FRENCH: No, no, it was just an overfill of a tank.

MR. McKENZIE: Of 500 litres?

MR. FRENCH: Five hundred litres, a great spill.

MR. McKENZIE: The obligation is clearly on them to have it cleaned up instantly. I would assume a reputable company would not even need any urging to do that, they would instantly take it upon themselves to clean it up.

MR. FRENCH: The thing about it is, of course, as you know, a lot of the oil companies now have distributors. Then the oil company says the distributor should be responsible, and the distributor says, well, somebody was supposed to have this taken out of there, and the oil company says, we were supposed to do it but it is still the distributor's fault because they should not have done it, they have been coming here for four years. In a case like that, basically what happened, it took a couple of days for anybody to kick in here. I kicked in, of course, immediately, but I noticed it did not seem like Environment was notified immediately. The guys were great, by the way, but I just figured they would have an action plan to act instantly or force someone to act instantly.

MR. McKENZIE: It is hard to just instantly force. I do not know if they have the right to just instantly sort of insist that you or the distributor or the fuel company pay the money. One assumes in those cases, I say, that one of them, the distributor or the fuel company, would have just recognized their responsibility or, if there were a dispute, one of them would have done it and would have sorted out the responsibility and the expense afterwards.

While they have certain powers after the fact, right on that spot it is hard for them to say: You spend the money, you clean it up, if there is some dispute as to whom the responsible party is. It is the responsible party who is responsible for cleaning it up.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Do the officials keep an eye on it? Even though they have been notified instantly, I have not had a big lot of contact with them, just to ask them the process and when they become involved. Basically, I assume that they wait until they get a report from an environmental engineer.

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, when it is in a basement like that, I do not know if they would even make another trip back, Terry, because they would assume the homeowner is on top of it and it would be done that way.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: If it is outdoors, no man's land and so on, they are more likely to try to keep an eye on it.

MR. FRENCH: In the case where there is a homeowner who is having problems with a company, and they believe they are at stake and so on, could they come to you guys and have your officials contact oil companies on their behalf?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, we would do that just to see, in terms of who might have been responsible for a given spill.

MR. FRENCH: And insist that - if it wasn't cleaned up, you wouldn't partake in the actual cleanup and bill somebody for it down the road, would you?

MR. McKENZIE: No, but if they are reluctant, yes. Ultimately, we would get a ministerial order against them saying: You clean this up.

Then, if within a certain time period of thirty days they did not, they are open for prosecution.

MR. FRENCH: I am fortunate enough that the cleanup is started and so on. I have often wondered, because of that delay, and I am sure there are a lot of other people who - I thought about an elderly couple who could be in that very same boat. Would they have aggressively pursued it or would they have just left it? If they would have, your department would have intervened after some time?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, we would have gone and forced a cleanup. The only issue in the situation you described seemed to be the dispute as to whether it was the distributor or the fuel company which might have slowed it down.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: If it was absolutely clear-cut, if they were one and the same company, then clearly it would have been that company's fault instantly. On the spot we could have issued an order in that case.

MR. FRENCH: Just to change the topic a little bit. On the cellphone legislation, are you going to do an advertising campaign now or will it be done broadly throughout the Province, through the networks throughout the Province?

MR. SWEENEY: Terry, I know you have been tied up with your oil spill but we have a pretty good campaign going. It has been in the papers for a couple of weeks now, and through some radio ads, that sort of thing. I think the best advertising we have had has been from the news channels. They have hit every major news station or news hour that is in the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Is that done in-house or is that somebody else, a company outside?

MR. SWEENEY: No, in-house.

MS WAKEHAM: We have done it.

MR. FRENCH: It is all done in-house.

MR. SWEENEY: All of it was in the vicinity of $20,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and it all comes out of the advertising budget?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: The only other thing I was going to ask - this came up this morning - in your department, do you guys have political staff or just staff at the Minister's Office? Basically, I would like to know a number of how many political staff you have in the department.

MR. SWEENEY: I have an executive assistant and a secretary.

MR. FRENCH: So there would be two political staff, there would be none within the department?

MR. SWEENEY: No.

MR. FRENCH: Fine, thank you.

MR. SWEENEY: Now there is a departmental minister's secretary who is there.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, okay.

MR. SWEENEY: She has been there for twenty-something years.

MR. FRENCH: That would be political -

MR. SWEENEY: I have two people.

CHAIR: Thank you, Terry.

Probably we will just rotate right through to get anybody else who might want to intervene.

Ernie.

MR. McLEAN: I have a couple of questions. I think they probably know what I am going to ask.

CHAIR: Really? You have an unfair advantage though.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I agree, but I have to congratulate the minister on being appointed to the ministry. He has a great group to work with because I worked with them for awhile.

I just want to ask a question. On the Estimates it indicates there are five regional manager positions that you accounted for in the Salary brackets. I was just wondering if one of those was Goose Bay?

MR. SWEENEY: Bill, would you like to answer that one, or Barb?

MS WAKEHAM: Mr. McLean is referring to the position for Labrador. We have a director's position there. We have also gone to Treasury Board and asked for an increase in our salary vote to be able to put that position in place. We have not received a favourable response from Treasury Board at this point and time. Mr. McLean is aware that - I think there have been at least a dozen overtures made to try and get the dollars necessary to put this position in place. We are doing the best we can to cover off the requirements for Labrador without the position. We do have Rick Curran - I always get Curran and Conway mixed up. We have one in Central and one out in Corner Brook. We have put additional some staff - we had a change of staff in Labrador. We now have two positions; one is on maternity leave. We have just filled the EPO position and the EHO position, which is this week.

WITNESS: And the electrical next week.

MS WAKEHAM: And the electrical next week. While we do not have the director there, we do have able staff to take care of most of the activities. We will continue pursuing Treasury Board, but we have not managed to do it yet.

MR. McLEAN: I have to get it on the record that I am really fighting for it because I think it is a very necessary position with the issues which are always arising in that area. The management of that particular office should really take place out of there. So I will leave that one.

The highway enforcement officers, you have identified fifteen. Is that an extra one for the southern highway that has just been built? We were looking at one position for -

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think we have advertised for that one yet, Mr. McLean.

MR. McLEAN: Does that fifteen include - because it is your salary.

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think it does, no. I would have to check on that one, I am not sure.

MR. McLEAN: So it will be a position that will not be filled this year, in this year's Budget?

MR. McKENZIE: I do not think it is there, but you will have to forgive me. I will have to check to see whether that was one of the fifteen, the Southern Labrador one.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, thank you.

MR. SWEENEY: I will certainly (inaudible) any time, whenever you want to.

My first day in the office, the first person who comes in through is Ernie.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ernie.

Tom.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have just a couple of general questions and then we will refer back to the Vice-Chair for some of the number crunching to start.

Talking about homeowners insurance - and this issue came up in an earlier Estimates meeting today with Housing, actually. There are a number of instances, especially in the older part of the city and probably older homes throughout the Province, where homeowners insurance is being discontinued by the insurance companies for a variety of reasons. Either they are cancelling it because their oil tank was installed six years ago, and even though it is a perfectly good tank, it does not fall under the current regulations. Even though the homeowner does not have to replace it immediately, according to the new regulations the insurance companies are cancelling their insurance, which is very unfortunate.

There are other cases where the insurance company will come in and inspect and because they are living in a twenty-five or thirty year-old house and their electrical is no longer considered up to code, even though it is still perfectly good, they are cancelling it unless they bring their electrical up to code. Some of these homeowners have not had any claims against their insurance. Is your department planning to take any action to try and address this situation?

MR. SWEENEY: We have already discussed that with the carriers, and discussions are still underway. I think, for the most part - and Barb you can probably correct me - but there are people receiving insurance in the downtown area. It is a matter of shopping around.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, but what is happening is somebody who has had insurance, which is a high rate anyway - I know on my own home I am only paying a couple of hundred dollars for home insurance. In the downtown area, because homes are attached - or even homes in an older neighbourhood, a thirty-year old neighbourhood - in some cases it is happening, where they are paying $400 or $500 now, when they are cancelled by one company, what is happening is they shop around and can get insurance now at $1,200 a year. So they are paying three times as much. The same company that cancelled Mr. Jones is picking up a customer just around the corner from him and charging him $1,200. It seems to me like there is collusion within the industry.

MR. WAKEHAM: I do not think it is a matter of collusion within the industry. It is certainly nothing that - and we have done a lot of work with the insurance companies on this. One of the biggest problems we have with homeowners' policies is that it is not mandatory. Home insurance is not mandatory. It is not like automobile insurance where everybody has to have it. You will find that there are a lot of people, especially out around, who just do not carry any home insurance.

The insurance companies establish their price or their premium for the policy based on the risks. We have no ability to regulate. We have nothing within our guidelines within the insurance act that regulates home insurance policies because they are not mandatory, therefore we cannot regulate them. There has never been, to my mind, and nowhere in North America that I am aware of, where there is mandatory home insurance policies. Basically, the insurance companies can determine what the risks are. If they say the risk increases threefold because you are in an attached house in a downtown area where there are older homes and the potential for fire is greater, then they can assess a much higher rate for that premium.

We have talked to the insurance companies. A lot of the insurance companies got this, even to the point where a lot of people cannot even get insurance, no matter how much they pay for it. We have been working on the problem of, at least, making sure that if somebody has a house that they can get insurance even if they have to pay a higher premium. We have enough of a fight right now trying to make sure that we can even get people who want insurance to be able to get insurance where they were in a high risk category. Because it is not mandatory, we do not regulate it. All we can do is keep working on the insurance companies.

Unlike the automobile, where we can put underwriting guidelines in and say: you can't discriminate on age or you can't discriminate on your vehicle, or if you have had a lapsed premium or for whatever. We cannot do that with homeowners policies because we do not regulate it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Tom.

Jack.

Now that we have gone around once I will recognize anybody who indicates they would like to intervene.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

As you were speaking, it popped in my mind - I should have asked it earlier actually. With respect to inspections, some time ago there was a story in The Telegram concerning buses, bus inspections, the life span, basically, and that some buses, school buses in particular, that some companies go to the mainland and buy buses that are probably ten years old, that are not allowed to be used in other provinces, and bring them back here. It seemed like the industry was complaining with respect to not enough inspections and/or the buses themselves that are being permitted to be used here in the Province. Is there anything on that? Would you like to elaborate on that?

MR. McKENZIE: The regulations require them to be inspected twice per year, and they are met. We never slack on that one. Each bus is inspected twice per year. Other deficiencies occur between those six month periods, I suppose, but they do get their twice-a-year inspections.

MR. J. BYRNE: The inspections, now that you mentioned that, apparently there are a lot of problems with the brakes and the mechanical systems themselves within the buses within that six month period. A lot of the buses - as many as 25 per cent of the buses - are taken off the road when you do inspections, so that means these buses have to be transporting people and/or children, younger individuals, and are not safe to be on the roads. Has there been any thought given to, as they do in other provinces, say, if a bus is beyond a certain age it is out of the system?

MR. McKENZIE: I do not know if we have looked at it to that degree of the age of the bus, but with respect to those deficiencies we take them off for almost anything - turn signals and so on - it is not necessarily brakes and so on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know that.

MR. McKENZIE: I took some comfort in the news story in that we were catching all of these deficiencies and were taking them off the road. It would nice if they were perfect, and we never caught them because there were no deficiencies, but at least we were catching them at the time.

Generally, I think they are in good condition. After thirteen years they have to come off the road. It is this gap between - in some provinces it is nine or ten years and our thirteen year maximum is what the news story was concentrating on.

MR. J. BYRNE: The industry out there are saying - again, this is not your department, it is the Department of Education and/or, I suppose, the school boards themselves - that if they would put out contracts like two or three year contracts versus every year they could go out and get decent equipment. I think this is something that needs to be looked at for the safety - especially of the school buses - of the children in the Province. I know that is not an issue, but if there were a limit put on the buses, the age, I think in combination with the contracts, well then something could be done. Maybe your department and the Department of Education should get together and work something out on that.

MR. McKENZIE: That is a good idea.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the Estimates themselves, the Minister's Office, subhead 1.1.01.06 Purchased Services, you had budgeted $8,800 and there was $29,900 spent and you have budgeted $8,800, the same this year as you had budgeted the previous year. Why did it go up $21,100?

MR. SWEENEY: That is related to an increase in promotional costs related to entertainment and business meeting costs. Last year in particular there was a lot of consultation going on in the department with the minister, and a lot of other people coming in, especially Bill 28, insurance people, and other components that come through Government Services. There were a tremendous amount of business meetings incurred.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

Subhead 1.2.01 Executive Support. You had budgeted Salaries of $635,000, spent $771,300 and this year you are back to $677,900, so you went up something like $135,000 and even this year you are still up $42,000 from last year. Why that extra bump there, that $771,000?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically what happened there was, Salaries went up due to the reallocation of approved information technology funding which we provided for the development and maintenance of the department's Web site. That funding was used to maintain two temporary positions. We had a computer systems analyst and a computer support specialist.

MR. J. BYRNE: So they were brought in, and they had not been budgeted for?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under .05, same subhead, there $35,000 budgeted and you spent $92,000, Professional Services. What were those services?

MR. SWEENEY: Those services were - there was an increase there due to additional advertising costs associated with the consumer issues. Those costs go up or down from year to year; they vary.

MS WAKEHAM: Is that Professional Services?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, Professional Services.

MR. SWEENEY: Professional Services, yes.

Okay, that one, 05.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, 05.

MR. SWEENEY: That was to do with the - remember I mentioned in my opening remarks about a Consumer Advocate dealing with the Public Utilities Board issues? That was Peter O'Flaherty, of the law firm of Goodland O'Flaherty. That was an extra cost that was incurred there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty-seven thousand.

Under 2.1.01.06 Purchased Services -

MR. SWEENEY: Under 06.

MR. J. BYRNE: - you had budgeted $111,000, you spend $88,900, and now you are back up to $111,000. What were those Purchased Services?

MR. SWEENEY: That included $100,000 that was budgeted in 2002-2003 to deal with advertising for consumer issues. All the monies were not utilized in 2202-2003, but we expect that it will be used this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are saying that you spent $111,000 on advertising?

MR. SWEENEY: No, we spent $88,900; we had $111,000 budgeted.

MR. J. BYRNE: For advertising?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, there are a lot of issues that are in that department. Remember, there are eighty-five acts that are there.

MR. J. BYRNE: But didn't you just say that on the previous one there was some money spent for promotion there?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, in promotion, and then we also had the advertising for consumer issues like the cell phone part of it. What else Barb? I am only there a month, so -

MR. J. BYRNE: Does any money from this subhead go to the -

MR. SWEENEY: Absolutely not.

MR. J. BYRNE: You know what I am going to ask.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good things are happening.

MR. SWEENEY: No, absolutely not. Not a cent from the department actually went into that.

MS WAKEHAM: The $100,000 is not just for (inaudible). This covered off the cost of the town halls, the publication of the consolation document on Bill 28, it covered the cell phones, it covered the Don't Drink and Drive, it covered the stuff that we did for the impaired driving, it covered some of the consumer issues that we had on cost of credit, it covered brochures that we had printed. I mean, I can go in and give you a full listing if you want.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section 2.1.02.01 Residential Tenancies, Salaries, you had budgeted $388,000, you spent $436,000 and this year you have budgeted $637,000, which is almost, I won't say double, but pretty close to double, what you actually had budgeted last year. What is going on there?

MR. SWEENEY: Let's see. From $388,000 to $436,000, that came about as a result of filling an unfunded position in that sector, and to go up to $637,000 this year, the salary increase is a result of a redistribution of salary positions from Trade Practices that we just talked about earlier. There were four positions actually from Trade Practices and Licencing to Residential Tenancies.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought there was a policy in government - maybe you have cancelled it or whatever the case may be - that there was a hiring freeze on.

MR. SWEENEY: These are not new positions. They are transferred positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Transferred?

MR. SWEENEY: They were transferred down from Trade Practices and Licencing to Residential Tenancies, which reflects the difference.

If you notice, up in Trade Practices, it went from $671,000 down to $545,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 2.1.03.12. Insurance and Pensions, Information Technology, you had budgeted $75,000, you spent $77,500, and this year you are budgeting $125,000.

Something just came to my mind, before you answer that question, and that is with respect to computers and information technology. It probably deals with Bill Parrott's area. The information people, the technology, the company that was privatized, the computer company -

WITNESS: Xwave?

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Lands use to have all their work done at MUN, I think, the calculations and so on, years ago. Then they contracted it out to xwave after. No, xwave used to do it and then when they privatized they continued to do it. How much did it go up? Did you have any figures done on that with respect to what they are charging you as a private company versus when it was a corporation?

MR. PARROTT: Calculations?

MR. J. BYRNE: All the work they did on the computers for the monuments, the grid, the co-ordinates, and all the calculations and these things.

MR. PARROTT: With changes in computer technology, those programs could now run on PC boxes, so we moved it from xwave or NLCS at the time, back into government at a savings of $50,000 a year, and that has been ongoing now for ten or twelve years.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is not going that long. It might be seven or eight years, but it is not ten or twelve years.

About that Information Technology, section .12 there, $75,000 and $77,000 and up to $125,000.

MR. SWEENEY: The $75,000 to $77,500, there was a computer and a couple of printers bought there, small stuff. The $77,500 to $125,000, that was to upgrade the computer system, because as I mentioned in my preamble, we are licensing and controlling the licensing of the 5,000 people who administrate the securities. People who are selling you RRSPs and that sort of stuff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Administration, 3.1.01.01, Salaries. You budgeted $761,800, you spent $907,400 and this year you are budgeting $868,300. You are up $107,000 from last year and you actually spent about $140,000 to $150,000 extra.

MR. SWEENEY: That was involving reclassification and severance pay. Primarily, reclassification went from $761,000 to $907,000. This year we are estimating, because there is no retroactive pay to be paid, it is just straight salaries now on the reclassified positions, it will be $868,300.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many people would have been reclassified to get that kind of money?

MS WAKEHAM: It was twelve people.

MR. J. BYRNE: Twelve. At what level?

MS WAKEHAM: They all went from Clerk IIIs to Clerk IVs. The thing is that the classification had been outstanding for over a year. So it is all back pay that was accumulated from the date of the reclassification request.

MR. J. BYRNE: Transportation and Communications; you budgeted $422,000. You spent $473,000, that's say $50,000-$51,000 extra.

MR. SWEENEY: Believe it or not, most of that was postage.

Transportation and Communications, that covers travel by employees of the division, postage costs, telecommunications costs, courier charges, data upload costs incurred by driver examiners. The photo data that we are dealing with when you get your drivers licence done, that kind of stuff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Driver Examinations and Weigh Scale Operations.

Licence and Registration Processing, 3.1.03.01, Salaries. You budgeted $1,220,000, you spent $1,476,000, which is $250,000 more. This year you are back to $1.3 million. Is that the same thing, reclassification?

MR. SWEENEY: Reclassification, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How come there is so much reclassification going on?

MS WAKEHAM: First of all, under the collective agreement anybody who has a change in their position can request a reclassification. We had over thirty positions that had been outstanding for at least a year, in some cases eighteen months, waiting for Treasury Board to do the reclassifications. Consequently, because of the delay in doing the reclassifications, we ended up paying the back pay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under section 04., Supplies, you budgeted $181,000, you spent $213,000, which is $32,000 more. This year you are back to $172,000. Why has it gone up so much? What were the supplies?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically, the supplies there were plates and stickers.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? That is part of the revenue though. You get lots of revenue in from the plates and stickers.

MR. SWEENEY: The problem we have with the revenue though is that we do not see it. Revenue goes in general account. We are still dealing with expense. It would be nice if we could write it off. You know, run it as a business. Of course, this department would have a surplus every year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would say, yes.

Purchased Services, 06., you budgeted $265,800, you spent $281,000 and this year it is up to $338,000. What would those purchased services be, making the licence plates?

MR. SWEENEY: We are going to have to blame that on Treasury Board, that is banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: They are what?

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) to departments.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, they are transferred to us.

MR. J. BYRNE: Banking fees?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, the cost of transactions going through the department. They used to be handled by Treasury Board at one time and now it is being done through the department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Banking fees.

MS WAKEHAM: Banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you are putting money in all the time. You are not taking money out, are you?

MR. SWEENEY: But there is a cost associated for taking that money in.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I was telling you earlier about the banks.

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, yes. We just finished talking about it. We are getting there.

MS WAKEHAM: Treasury Board is getting very good right now of transferring different responsibilities to departments. We got the postage. We got the telephones. Now we have the banking fees.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do they still get the same - finance. We are doing finance, aren't we?

MS WAKEHAM: Leave it alone.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. SWEENEY: You could make a good case for us.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will.

Support Services, 3.2.01, Salaries, one point five -

MR. SWEENEY: 3.2.01?

MR. J. BYRNE: Support Services, 3.2.01.01, Salaries, gone from $1.5 million budgeted, up this year to $1.7 million. What is on the go there? The same thing?

MS WAKEHAM: That is the oil used.

MR. SWEENEY: I mentioned in my report, in the opening remarks, the two staff members we had for controlling the oil regulations; the used oil. That is the two positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Regional Services, 3.2.02.01, Salaries, from $5.1 million last year budgeted to $5.4 million this year. That is about $250,000, I suppose, $255,000.

MR. SWEENEY: Filling vacant positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Filling vacant positions. I thought there was a hiring freeze on it.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, that is another issue.

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, it is another issue, is it? Okay.

MR. McKENZIE: Walter transferred five people from MRD's payroll to GSC. We had staff on the MRD payroll in Harbour Grace, Clarenville and Gander situated at the Government Service Centres so we finally just shifted that onto the GSC payroll as well. Then, I think, there were a couple of reclassifications. That is where it adds up.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Supplies, 04., $66,200 budgeted up to $118,000. You may as well do them all there now: 04., 06. and 07.

MR. SWEENEY: Number 04., that is supplies (inaudible) seven additional staff. Remember we mentioned about the water testing? So that carried that cost.

Number 06., Purchased Services -

MR. J. BYRNE: It went from $60,800 up to $89,900. What were the services?

MR. SWEENEY: Basically, those costs came about from vehicle repair costs and equipment maintenance costs. Those costs can vary from year to year because where we are not buying a lot of new vehicles the ones that are out in the system are getting more wear and tear.

MR. J. BYRNE: Repairs to vehicles.

MS WAKEHAM: And equipment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and equipment.

MR. SWEENEY: And equipment, yes. Do not forget the associated stuff.

Number 07., Property Furnishings and Equipment. Basically, what happened there, the shortfall there - not the shortfall but the very little amount - we imposed a ban on all discretionary furniture and equipment purchases. So anything that we did not need or appeared to get along without, we did without.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you are going to buy them this year because it is up to the same thing as last year.

MR. SWEENEY: Maybe not.

MR. J. BYRNE: 3.3.01, Vital Statistics Registry. You budgeted $372,000, spent $485,000 and up to $530,000. Do not tell me it is reclassification again.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, reclassifications.

MR. J. BYRNE: Reclassifications?

MS WAKEHAM: Now there is one other issue.

MR. SWEENEY: One other issue? Okay.

MR. McKENZIE: We had a position funded by the Department of Health and Community Services as we were entering the data on adoptions for the new adoptions act that is coming in. In their wisdom they have decided not to fund that for us this year. So we have to swallow the cost of this additional clerk. That is another $30,000 or so, along with the reclassifications.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you say they decided not to. Who are they?

MR. McKENZIE: The Department of Health and Community Services. They were paying us for a couple of years on a temporary basis while we got the data base done but now they want us to handle it on our own.

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Land, 4.1.01.03, Transportation and Communications, $179,000 budgeted, $152,700 spent, $163,800 -

MR. SWEENEY: That is travel, what it comes down to.

MR. J. BYRNE: Information Technology, $237,500 up to $329,400, and this year you are budgeting $175,000. What was that bump? Why so much less this year than budgeted for last year?

MR. SWEENEY: Last year was the - information technology, everything changes. Most of that was to upgrade the computer hardware and software. This year it has decreased again. We have a maintenance agreement in place and some of the - this stuff varies from year to year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have to ask, do we ever get to a point where the software and the computer hardware is sufficient to do the job?

MR. SWEENEY: Go out tonight and buy one and tomorrow morning -

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that, but I can go home and use a computer I had five years ago to do the job for me. It might take a bit longer but the question is, do we need to be spending this kind of money all the time on software and equipment and hardware if it can do the job? That goes for every department, not your department?

MR. SWEENEY: Oh, yes.

MS WAKEHAM: I will answer that question because we are doing a review of all of our information technology right now.

Yes, we have to do upgrades on some of the stuff we have. We have a million-and-a-half transactions going through and to tell a customer outside that you are now going to pay $100 for something but you are going to have to wait two hours for it instead of the five minutes that you are going to spit it out in, is a little bit difficult.

There are some things that we have to do in terms of upgrades, and maintenance costs are increasing tremendously with respect to a lot of this software. We are not changing our hardware unless it is absolutely necessary to change our hardware, but you do have to try and improve efficiencies within your operation for your client.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and I can appreciate that.

MS WAKEHAM: But there is a balance between what you should and what you do need, right?

MR. J. BYRNE: Whoever is there at the time, it is down to their - discretion is not the right word - estimation of what it should be, I suppose.

MS WAKEHAM: There is a significant amount of scrutiny going on in terms of the dollars that we are spending on IT, but there are things that we have to do. We do not have a choice in terms of the upgrades.

MR. J. BYRNE: Land Management, 4.1.02., 01. Salaries, $333,000 budgeted, $364,900, up to $417,000 this year. Again, it seems like it is all - I find it hard to say there are all of these extra salaries and there is no new hiring, it is just reclassification.

MR. SWEENEY: Actually, this one is hiring to fill positions; you hit one.

MR. J. BYRNE: I only have two or three left and I will be finished.

Surveying and Mapping, now here is an interesting one.

MR. SWEENEY: Here is your speciality.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, 4.1.03 Surveying and Mapping, Salaries went from $523,400 down to $500,000, down to $381,000. Who did you fire?

MR. SWEENEY: They did not fire anybody. All that was there with the drop from the budget to the revised - are we -

MS WAKEHAM: This is here. This is the federal GeoConnections equipment and their cost. The work that we do for the federal government is costed off to the federal government.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

The drop in $23,000, that was a delay in filling a vacant position. The other one going down to $381,000, some of the costs were absorbed by the feds under the Geomatics Agreements.

MR. J. BYRNE: Geomatics Agreements is the next one.

MR. SWEENEY: We got lucky.

MR. J. BYRNE: Geomatics Agreements, 4.1.04 you have Salaries $81,400, none budgeted, and none budgeted this year. Obviously, there is someone in there for a short period, I suppose.

Transportation and Communications is $5,000. Professional Services is $125,000. Then, Purchased Services, $370,000 budgeted, down to $158,000 and back up to $370,000. Do you want to go through those four?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes. Do you want to do those, Bill?

MR. PARROTT: Those figures will add up to $370,000, which was the total of the budget agreement with the federal government for GeoConnections. It was budgeted as that and then the revised shows the breakdown and what subheads it was charged off to, to the federal government.

MR. J. BYRNE: The last one, 4.1.05 Land Development, you have Property, Furnishings and Equipment $15,000 that was spent that was not budgeted for.

MR. SWEENEY: That was Information Technology. That was computer hardware.

MR. J. BYRNE: Computers?

MR. SWEENEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it for me.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Jack.

Are there other questions for the minister or his officials from the Committee members? Terry? Tom?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Just a couple of questions, actually. Jack seemed to do quite well in covering all the bases.

The revenue collected on the sale of Crown land, where does that revenue go? I see under Crown Land, subhead 4.1.01, under Revenue - Provincial, there is $150,000. That is pretty consistent, so I would not say that is as a result of the sale of Crown land, is it?

MR. SWEENEY: Any revenue that comes in regarding the sale of anything goes into general coffers.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Pardon me?

MR. SWEENEY: All the revenue that comes in goes into general coffers.

MS WAKEHAM: That is not the land, Tom. That is the sale of photos of the aerial photography maps and all of the mapping that we do. We purchase it and then we sell it out. That is the revenue stream that comes in and goes into general revenue.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. I knew that, but that was the only area under Crown Land that I saw revenue, so I was wondering.

MS WAKEHAM: Under subhead 4.1.05, Revenue - Provincial, $1,250,000, that is the Crown land sale.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Land Development?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Would that be cottage lots?

MS WAKEHAM: That includes recreational, residential, commercial Crown lands, yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

That is residential and commercial Crown lands? That would also be cottage lots as well, Barb?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Actually, that is the only question that I had. I think Jack covered off all the areas that I had highlighted.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Sandra.

MS KELLY: First of all, I should say to the new minister how quickly he has come up to speed. It is absolutely amazing.

One of the things also I guess I should comment on is, with all of you being here in St. John's you are not aware of just how helpful the outer offices are to MHAs like me, that most of the time I never have to approach you guys because the problems get solved out in my district by the officials who are out there. I thank them very much. They work very closely with all of us out in Central Newfoundland and do a great job.

One of the things that I hear out in my district quite a bit is around drivers' licences, and I think many of you would know that it has always been a big lobby about it, being able to do the whole thing at the office in Gander. Will that day ever come, or is it going to be all done through a computer in the near future? Which do you think is going to come first?

CHAIR: Bill.

MR. McKENZIE: It can be done. We are just a little short on cash. Really, for the price of a good printer and a bit of computer hardware, we could print them in Gander as well as Grand Falls. For the Committee members interested, we would take the photo in Gander and it is transmitted to Grand Falls to have the licence printed, and then it is shipped back to someone who is in Gander. With a good printer - these are expensive printers to do those - we could do it in Gander now. With a $10,000 or $15,000 investment, we could print them in the Gander office, but even $10,000 or $15,000 is difficult these days.

MS KELLY: Now I know what to lobby for.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Sandra.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible) is a new member here and he is wondering about supper, and I said that is out of my hands.

To the minister and the staff, I know sometimes you get a lot of complaints and I do not want to be like the people who complain and nag you guys too much, but from my perspective out in Corner Brook, I think the staff does a great job for the Corner Brook region. Sometimes there are always a few tangles, but then a lot of times when issues come in there is always more than one story to it.

Minister, congratulations. It is good to see that you are really involved with the department. It is very obvious that you are. To the staff, thank you very much. Sometimes I call in and by the time I reach your level there are usually so many weaves and woves in it that Houdini would not be able to get it straightened out, but you do your finest. You do get a lot of great comments out on the West Coast, so from the people I deal with in the Bay of Islands, I thank you very much.

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Eddie.

I have to say, I had an opportunity to visit the Corner Brook office. There is a great group of people there and they are very accommodating.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I will now call for the vote on the various headings.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05 carried, without amendment.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the Committee for their diligence in questioning the minister and his officials. I would also like to thank the officials along with the minister for their succinct answers and good knowledge base that they have and the information that they conveyed to us this evening. I am sure Jack must have gotten most of his questions answered satisfactorily.

MR. J. BYRNE: I got answers.

CHAIR: There are really two answers I observed. One is reclassification and the other is new hires. They seem to alternate depending on - whatever you wanted, it was the opposite, it appeared, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: As usual.

CHAIR: That is the way the cookie crumbles or the mop flops. Thanks again, everybody, and I would ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank everyone: the minister, the deputy minister, and the staff. Every year, I would imagine, you get some repeat questions type of thing but the numbers are always different. I appreciate you being here and the answers that you gave.

CHAIR: I guess the minister will be able to advise you next year whether or not he got repeat questions.

MR. J. BYRNE: I doubt if he will be advising me next year.

MR. SWEENEY: Next year I will just say a or b, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I might be saying a or b.

CHAIR: May I have a motion to adjourn, please?

On motion, the Committee adjourned.