The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Matthews): Good evening, all.

Thanks for coming out for the Estimates Committee meeting of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board and the Public Service Commission.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible), but we can do Treasury Board. We are open to that.

CHAIR: The schedule I saw had Treasury Board on it, with Finance.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Well, we are here to do whatever we are here to do. Without any further ado, we will move forward.

The Committees are scheduled for three hour hearings. We would hope that we would get it all concluded in that period of time. The time allocations, just by way of information again, will be up to fifteen minutes for the minister to introduce her Estimates and then up to fifteen minutes for the respondent from the Committee, from the Vice-Chair, and then up to ten minutes for Committee members for as often as they wish to continue the questioning.

I think what I should do at this point is ask the Committee to introduce themselves and then the minister and her staff. I am told that the norm is to let the Public Service Commission piece of the hearings proceed so that they can -

MS J.M. AYLWARD: We are going to do Finance first, Mr. Chair, if that is okay. I know I am not being very co-operative this evening, but -

CHAIR: Well, leave it in the hands of the Chair and we will probably do Finance first.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: I was advised that we normally do it the other way so I was taking instructions, as a good public servant always does, from significant officials.

Committee, would you please introduce yourselves starting with the Deputy Chair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MR. McLEAN: Ernie McLean, MHA for Lake Melville.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister Aylward.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sitting to my immediate left is Phil Wall, Deputy Minister of Finance. Next to Phil is Terry Paddon, ADM, Department of Finance. Sitting behind me is Sheila Devine, Commissioner with the Public Service Commission; and Fonse Faour, who is the Chair of the Public Service Commission.

CHAIR: Thank you, very much.

It is the procedure in the Committee hearings, I understand, that Committee members will be referred to by name rather than by district, for the record. The other thing is, I think we should note that our mike should be activated before we speak, and identify ourselves each time we speak, for purposes of the record of Hansard.

Having said that, the Minister of Finance will introduce her Estimates and we will carry on in the afore-outlined manner.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you very much.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I am sorry?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Yes, before we do that, probably I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead so that we can proceed with the Estimates hearings.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to not make any introductory remarks on the Department of Finance. I am just more than prepared to answer your questions, and I am prepared to stay here as long as it takes to do both of the departments.

If you have any questions, I say to Jack or to Wally, carry on - or to my colleagues as well.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Deputy Chair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions on the Department of Finance. I think what I will lead off with is the Budget itself, the Budget Speech, Budget 2003.

On page 12 of that speech, under Deficit Reduction over the Next Mandate, I know we were given three different amounts for the deficit in the Budget. On this page it says, "Mr. Speaker, if the consolidated deficit were substantially higher and our outlook not as favourable, a much more detailed plan for deficit reduction could be needed."

Would the minister be interested in giving us some details on a plan to reduce the deficit over the next few years, more than saying that a plan could be needed and other than the fact that you are saying the economy is going to improve?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Actually, this is a good statement to make because the consolidated deficit, obviously, was substantially higher, but because our outlook is so favourable we believe, as I answered today in Question Period, we are not prepared to cut and slash. Our approach is to continue to grow the economy. We are looking at our record in answering the question.

If you look at our record, in the last five of six years we have grown our economy and have come in about $100 million over our projected revenues each of the last five out of six years. Based on that alone, we feel there is a substantial way and a very reasonable way, as has been confirmed by Moody's, for example, that if we continue to grow our own economy and fairly much maintain our expenditures as much as possible, we believe, contrary to what the Auditor General is saying, that there are times when you have to spend money. One of the times, obviously, is Badger. Another time was when we had Hurricane Gabriel. Those kinds of things you cannot predict, but by and large not to continue to grow your known expenditures and deal with the other ones, we believe, based on that, our deficit reduction plan can be achieved by growing our own economy.

We believe - not because we believe it but because the information and the facts are there for each of the last five out of six years - that we have grown our own economy provincially by about $100 million more than we projected.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

You say that you are going to grow the economy but you really do not give us any details on how you are planning on growing the economy, other than saying that we have grown over the past couple of years. In the past few years in this Administration the word deficit was pretty well a nasty, bad word, and all of a sudden you said last year we grew our economy, the year before, and over the past number of years, and all of a sudden now it is okay to have a pretty well major deficit. Would you have any explanation as to why it was bad last year and it is okay this year?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A deficit is never good, but when you make a choice to listen to what the people have to say and you go out and give them the option: Do you want to eliminate the deficit and come in with a balanced budget? Do you want to do an accountant's kind of budget and balance your books, or do you want to do something that deals with health care?

You people, every day of the week, will stand up and ask for new health care facilities, more pavement for roads. We heard a lot of those very same requests from the people we did our consultations with, and the view was very clearly, unequivocally, do not cut out our major social programs and do not make those kinds of choices.

The rationale we give - I will answer the question in two parts. One, we listened to what the people said. It has always been our priority, and health care is still our priority, but we also put a lot of specific initiatives around education. If you say that generically I am saying about growing the economy, I am more than happy to give you the examples of how we have grown our economy.

We have the highest employment rate since Confederation. We have more people working than we have ever had working in the history of our Province. Our housing starts are significant. We have introduced - Hibernia and Terra Nova are producing more than we ever anticipated. We have just signed off on White Rose. We do not even know the full effects of Voisey's Bay; and, with the Lower Churchill, Gull Island still a very strong possibility, you are not just picking numbers out of the sky. The evidence is there.

Even though you do not like to hear about GDP - GDP is not my creation - GDP is a measurement of the financial markets and the fiscal agents and the economists to measure how strong your economy is. It is all over the Globe and Mail the last couple of days, everywhere, if you look at it, we are leading the country, we are leading Atlantic Canada. We are not making it up, these are not our numbers, these are not our predictions. It is only a matter of going back and looking at the last labour market sheet, if you want, and you will see there are more people working than ever before, we have had the highest housing starts, the construction industry is going very well, work on the Trans Labrador Highway, work in the capital city is exorbitant compared to at least the last five years ago, for sure. The measures are very real and that is how we believe we can achieve those kinds of initiatives.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I am still not quite clear on what is different this year from last year. You say you had public consultations and you listened to the people. Did you not have the same type of public consultations when you prepared the budget last year? What is different in what the people are saying this year from last year?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, I think the numbers are there. I read it out in the Budget Speech. For one thing we had some one-time monies last year that we didn't have this year, in the name of sinking funds. It was all read out in the Budget Speech, Jack. In addition to that, we had less monies from the federal government. We got $43 million from the federal government in the health file and we lost $42 million in equalization. It is all there. I wouldn't want to go through the whole Budget Speech again. I wouldn't want to do that to you for an hour and twenty minutes, but it was all clearly outlined in the Budget Speech.

This year, when you add up the deficit, we have included, for the first time, a consolidated budget which includes the capital that we are putting in for The Rooms, for all of the schools, plus for the boards. That is added into the deficit. For the first time ever we have added in their deficits as it relates to capital with our own. That is why the numbers are there.

It was no different last year. When I went around last year and did my pre-Budget consultation, everyone told me pretty much the same, but they were even more clear this year, because they knew the deficit was larger and they knew the choices would be tougher.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Speaking of the Budget, Building Our Future Together, the highlights, on the first page, K to12 System, you said, "Over the next two years, we are prepared to contribute $5 million towards a Broadband Internet connectivity project in partnership with the federal government and the private sector."

When you say, we are prepared to, are you saying you are going to or will it depend on other factors?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: If you will remember, when the Lieutenant-Governor read the Throne Speech and when I read my Budget Speech, we talked about this being part of a partnership, a three-way partnership, one with Aliant, one with the federal government and one with ourselves. When you are in partnership you have to have all the partners onside before you spend your money. So that is why it is there. You cannot go out and spend your portion without knowing they are onside as well. That is why that wording is as it is.

MR. J. BYRNE: So if one of those partners are not in, than that $5 million will not be spent this year, and that will be $5 million to the plus on the bottom line?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, we may be able to spend some of it but we will not be able to spend all of it. If we have two partners we might be able to spend two-thirds of it. I am not sure. It is certainly something that you could speak to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development about. It is not under any of my subheads in the Department of Finance, but I would be happy to pass the question along to her and you might have an opportunity to ask her when she does her estimates.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Also, it says: For the fourth consecutive year an additional $1 million has been allocated for the purchase of new library books. Reading that, and hearing what is in the media the past few days with Brian Shortall and the school boards with respect to the library resource teachers being - I think there are thirty-something teachers coming out of the system. They are going to put $1 million into library books but we will not have the teachers there to help implement any new information into this system. Do you have any comments on that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, sure. As you know, government does not identify which teachers are a part of the plan that the school boards put forward in terms of the reduction. In addition to putting forward the $1 million for school books, we have also reinvested million of dollars so that we can keep an extra 200 teachers in the system. Instead of taking out almost 400, there are only 160 coming out and we are reinvesting the money to keep the other 260.

If Brian Shortall is out talking about the library teachers or the library component being reduced, that is a decision that they have made in terms of how they want to reduce it. They could have chosen, for example, maybe to put more of their administration and managers back into the classroom, if they wanted to do those kinds of things. That is the kind of management that is done at the school board level. Just like at the hospital board level, you do not go and decide how many nurses are working the shift or how many physios are doing on-call, the boards make that kind of decision.

There is really no correlation because generally, children go in and sign out their library books with or with teachers in the room. It is really of no relevance in terms of the question to the allocation of money for library books.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just to get back to the comparison, it always comes back, I suppose, to the dollars. The analogy that Mr. Shortall made was that if they had to make a decision, because of the cuts that he is referring to, you know, you make a decision of which arm you are going to take off, the right or the left type of thing. So, it does boil down to the amount of money that the school board has to spend on the teaching positions, I would think, wouldn't you?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is never easy when you are facing a deficit. We had to make a number of choices, too, and our choice was to reinvest the money into health care and education. It is up to Mr. Shortall and his board on how they decide they want to reinvest the money we have given them, and how they want to address the other issues around the investment. But if you also read down, you will know that there are a lot fewer students in the schools then there were three to four years ago. So, if we had gone based on the number of students, even though we have the best student-teacher ratio in the country, we would remove students to match that. We would have taken out another 300 teachers on top of that. I guess you can look at it half full or half empty.

MR. J. BYRNE: One of the good announcements, from my perspective, in the Budget and the Budget Speech, of course, was the announcement of a second MRI for the Province. Now, when you were reading your speech, the first thing that came to my mind was the location, of course, and how will that location be determined, and how the decision would be made of where that second MRI would be located. We see people fighting for it already. Do you have any criteria put in place of how that will be decided?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes. The same as what was read out in the Budget Speech, exactly the same, that we would put together a team of professionals and we would ask their expertise on terms of what they felt was the best decision, whether it should be mobile or whether it should be stationery. Based on the best evidence that we have gotten, just like on the dialysis machines, we have physicians and nurses and nephrologists, particularly, who are making the decision on where to put dialysis satellite offices and units. On the same premise, you ask the people with the expertise to make the decision. That is what we have done, the same as we read out in the Budget Speech.

MR. J. BYRNE: Payroll Tax, A Future of Jobs and Growth. Payroll tax, of course, as we all know, is a tax on jobs since it has been brought in. It is something we have been looking to shape, I suppose. I know the government has taken some steps in the past couple of years to get rid of the payroll tax and you had some announcements again this year. Do you have a goal in mind as to when that payroll tax will be ended, over and done with?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think it could be over tomorrow if we had the revenues, but the issue has always been, with us, it is not that you want to keep the payroll tax in place; it is about being fiscally prudent and what you can afford to do.

If we felt that taking the payroll tax was a higher priority than putting in an MRI, or maybe shutting down a hospital, we could easily eliminate it tomorrow because there is probably between another $20 million and $40 million there in payroll tax. It is about priorities and making choices.

As our revenues improve, the answer is there. Every year for the last four years we have made improvements in the existing payroll tax by raising the threshold. This year it is up to $700,000. It tails off between $600,000 and $700,000, and they are totally exempt up to $600,000. So, as our fiscal situation improves, and continues to improve, we will continue to make those adjustments.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to housing, you announced that $4 million would be spent on a cost-shared affordable housing agreement with the federal government.

Can you give us more details on that program? Has there been anything else negotiated since the announcement?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: As I pointed out, it is not any part of my Estimates in Finance, as you know. It is really part of the responsibility under Municipal and Provincial Affairs. It is a cost-shared agreement with respect to the federal government and Municipal and Provincial Affairs about an agreement which - I think the Leader of the NDP asked a question one day about signing the agreement. It is a bilateral agreement that would be signed with our Province, as has been signed with every other province in the country.

To the best of my knowledge the information is, not being the minister, that it is specifically related to building new housing. It is not about maintenance and repair, which is certainly our main priority. The allocation is not nearly as high as we would have liked.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have lots of questions. I do not have to hog it. If somebody else wants to jump in -

CHAIR: Do you want to pass to your colleague? I can check to see who else wants to speak, or you can carry on for another few minutes. I think we are trying to be flexible in the interest of efficiency.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the Estimates themselves, within the Estimates book itself, on page 29, 1.1.01. Minister's Office, 01. Salaries, you budgeted $123,000, it went up to $137,400 and back to $129,400 this year, a $14,000 difference. It may not be a lot of money in the overall picture in the scheme of things, but you are looking at probably 10 per cent there or so. Why the difference?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, traditionally it has been underfunded. I think that if you would look back on last year you probably would have seen a similar piece of it. I guess throughout the year you always try to manage but there are reasons and occasions for an increase. I would say it is due to a chronic shortage in the budget allocation. That is basically the reason why.

MR. J. BYRNE: Still, up $14,000 from last year, what was that specifically for?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think, as I said, if you look at last year, it was the same thing. It was an overrun because it has been traditionally underfunded. It is just based on overtime and extra work that has been done. That is basically it.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not sure I am getting a clear picture here. There was $123,200 budgeted, you had $129,400 budgeted this year, but you spent $137,400 last year - $14,000 in your office - and you are saying it is basically underfunded. Why would you not budget $137,400 for it, if that is what was needed?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, that is something that we will certainly look at seriously for the next budget, because I think that is a good suggestion. Last year, for example, it was budgeted at $125,000 and we spent $135,000. You make a legitimate point. I am sure next year when this comes through we will probably raise it to $135,000 to be more reflective to the actual cost of running that office.

MR. J. BYRNE: The $137,400, there is still that $14,200. Was it spent on overtime or was it spent on hiring extra staff to come into the office? What were the particulars?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Salaries and overtime.

MR. J. BYRNE: For what positions?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: For the three positions in the minister's office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Three positions in the minister's office. Is that normal for civil servants, to be paid overtime? Do they not normally get time off or whatever the case? I think, again, if my assistant worked overtime she would not get paid overtime.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: There is a policy where you get so much of it in time off, and then over a certain point you get paid overtime.

MR. J. BYRNE: What would be the details of that? To a certain limit you do not get paid, and once you get beyond that point you get paid overtime. What are the details on that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I just want to say, because I was just informed, there is extremely very little overtime in that piece. It is mostly just chronic underfunding of the salaries, the same as last year. If you refer back to last year's Estimates, you will see the same thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Still, if it is underfunded, what is the underfunding for, if you have to pay out that $14,000?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, there are salary increases built in there, too, right? The 15 per cent, the same as we all got, that is built in there, and that is it. That is just an underfunded heading. I will take your advice and make the recommendation next year that we increase it. I think that is a good suggestion.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not giving you any advice. I am only asking a question.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, but you did. You suggested if it was -

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I did not suggest. I said, why did you not do that? That is not giving advice. That is a question.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, a question, a suggestion, you know.

MR. J. BYRNE: There is a difference. I am not getting the answer.

Under Supplies, $2,200 was budgeted, $7,500 spent. That is an extra $5,300 for supplies in the Minister's Office. Can you tell me what that extra, almost - well, it was over three times what was budgeted. What would it be for? Because you are back to $2,200 this year, the same amount

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, this year there was just an increase in the demand for office supplies and expenses, more staff meetings and that sort of thing, and more outside meetings. It is a busy office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under General Administration, Current, 1.2.01. Executive Support, Salaries, you budgeted $522,000, you spent $551,000, and you are at $548,000 this year. Why the differences?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, there are two things. One, of course, is the regular funded increases, and the other part was that there was a training officer hired for four months. That accounted for the extra allocation of funding to bring it up to $551,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: This training officer, what was that person hired to do?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A human resource specialist, and she shared with my department in Treasury Board as well as in Finance. She was doing training, different kinds of program training. If you want the name of the courses she taught, I can certainly get them for you but I do not have them here with me this evening.

MR. J. BYRNE: Generally, what type of training, though?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Human resource training.

WITNESS: Front-line training.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Front-line stuff, train the trainer, some OH&S stuff; all the stuff that is required.

MR. J. BYRNE: What would that salary have been?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: For the four months, it was $16,000 extra.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next page, under Executive and Support Services, Administrative Support, 1.2.02.06, Purchased Services. You had budgeted $37,900, you spent $50,000 and you are back to $37,900 this year. That will give you $12,100 extra; 33 per cent on Purchased Services. Why is that, and what would those services have been?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: This is subsection 1.2.02.06?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mostly it was because of increased professional training. We printed an economic update called the Economy. We also did advertising for pre-Budget consultations under that heading. Interestingly enough, we had increased fees for ergonomic assessments of our employee workstations. Also, we had some specific training that we had to purchase, particularly, which was related to the ergonomic assessments. As a result of that, you will see further down, when we did the ergonomic assessments we had to make some furniture purchases and equipment purchases -

MR. J. BYRNE: That was next for me, yes.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - as a result of that, because we had a couple of employees who not only needed a new chair, but needed a new desk because of the ergonomic needs of the work situation.

MR. J. BYRNE: The ergonomic studies, you had people in to do this. That is done by a request by the department. If anybody within government wanted this done they could just put a request that this would be done?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, it is done through Human Resources. They make the request. Even though government is big, the departments are still relatively small. If people have problems whereby they are off sick, and this is a recommendation that comes forward as a consultation from a physio or an OT, then we follow up on that and do the assessment. It is not generally done. They are usually referred by an OT or a PT.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Section 1.3.01.01, Government Personnel Costs, Salaries. What is that? Is that $12 million?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, $12 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: $12, 261,600 nothing revised, and this year it is up to $46 million. Then Employee Benefits in the next column. Do anybody want to address that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, the $12 million to the $46 million, these are estimates that are made based on salary increases. Particularly, that is where the doctors arbitration money was parked.

With the other Employee Benefits, if you are talking about the increase going from zero to zero to $1.4 million, it is because of basically increased costs for the employer share of the benefits. That results from two things: One is the fact that the salaries are higher but also there has been a premium rate hike. You will see in most of our benefits that we are paying out there has been a significant increase, with the exception of Group Life.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to that, you said that is where the increase for the physicians was parked. You had $12 million last year, so it is $34 million. What was the final amount again from the -

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Fifty-four.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty-four. So you still have to come up with another eighteen, is it?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, we figure it is between $10 million and $13 million more. The rationale that we have given, I do not know if you heard it, but we discussed it - my colleague and I in a press conference - that we have to yet complete all the retroactive payments. We still have to work through that process. We do not have the actual agreement signed off yet, even though I think we are fairly close. We are looking at the fact that each year we have grown our economy by about $100 million. So we will be in a much better position come September or October to know exactly what our needs will be at that point with respect to having to adjust our budget. If you remember, last year I announced a cash deficit of $93 million, and come November it was down to $63 million because of the growth in our economy and some changes in the federal program sharing.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned a minute ago that benefits costs have gone up. Just recently I noticed that Blue Cross has gone up, almost 25 per cent or something was it?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: About $8 per pay period for single, and I think it is about $14 or something for family.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, the percentage was a fairly big jump. Was it up -

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It could be more than that. It depends on your salary, because it is not -

MR. J. BYRNE: The Blue Cross package, how often do you tender that package out or is it tendered?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, it is always tendered. It is usually tendered, if I am not mistaken, once every three years. You get a three-year contract with an annual renewal option and each year the annual renewal increases, without a doubt. The market is pretty sewn up. There are only about two or three major suppliers anyway, and bids are -

MR. J. BYRNE: Competitive.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: They are very competitive. What we found in the past, before my time, was that you often will get a low bid coming in, you get the lower bid, but then the second year you get hammered and it goes way up.

MR. J. BYRNE: With that, though, is it increased each year? Is that built into the package that each year you will get an increase for the premium?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: We do not automatically get an increase. It depends on the premiums and the experience. What we are finding is that as we have more retirees, for example, the drug prescription program in our Blue Cross has gone way up, and that also covers hospital beds and other things. There has always been an interest to increase the benefit package, but because of the cost we have always tried to find a balance between maintaining the benefits and not raising the prices too much.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Jack, if you do not mind, maybe I should move to some other Committee member to see if there are those who have questions and then we can come back.

I will go to the back row. Mary?

MR. H. HODDER: No questions.

CHAIR: Ernie?

Roland?

MR. BUTLER: No, thank you.

CHAIR: No questions.

Wally?

MR. YOUNG: I have no questions to ask there.

CHAIR: No questions.

Carry on Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Just to give you a break.

MR. J. BYRNE: No problem.

Under 2.1.01. Pensions Administration, Salaries, $1,512,500 budgeted, spent $1,502,100, and now you are up to $1,586,700. So you are looking at $84,000 more than you had spent last year. What is that, $74,000 more than what you had budgeted last year? Why is that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is just to meet the salary increase cost. That is it.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it? No extra employees?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 12. Information Technology, $475,600 budgeted, you spent $475,600, and now it is up to $587,300.

I know we need to be kept up to date with respect to computer technology, but does there come a point in time when the computers and the systems that we have in place can do the job without having to - in every department it is the same under Information Technology. We always see a substantial increase in that subhead and this year, as you see there, it is $587,000. It is $112,000 more. What is the explanation?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: You know, it is just like your brakes. They only last so long and then you have to get them repaired or you throw them out and get a new set.

In place of IT, there are always software improvements. You know, when you are doing major functions for government, it has to be continually upgraded. In this particular case, it was specifically for the Genesis payroll system upgrade, and it cost $111,000 more.

If you want me to explain what the Genesis payroll system upgrade is, you are going to have to ask someone else to do that, because I do not know.

MR. J. BYRNE: No.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: And I am sure you do not know either, right?

MR. J. BYRNE: I know a bit about computers.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: I know a bit about computers.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, what is it? Would you mind telling me what the Genesis payroll system upgrade is?

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't want to go into it. I would imagine it is an improved system of some sort, I suppose.

CHAIR: The question is out of order, Minister.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I am supposed to be asking the questions here.

Under Special Assistance, 2.1.04.09., $2 million budgeted, spent $300,000, and you have $1 million this year, Allowances and Assistance. What is the story on that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Wait now. Just hang on a second, Jack.

Which heading?

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 2.1.04.09.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Okay, 2.1.04.

That is the fuel tank, the domestic fuel oil tank replacement program right there, and we budgeted $2 million. We only had $300,000 uptake and this year, really, we are just taking a shot at putting in $1 million based on the uptake.

MR. J. BYRNE: Now that you mention oil tanks, I had something noted here. I think it was in the - oh, here it is. I do not know if you can answer this one, really, but I am going to have a shot at it. It is really Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, I suppose. It is in here in your Budget Highlights, "11.5 million will be spend under the Provincial Home Repair Program to assist low-income homeowners maintain their homes. It is estimated that approximately 2,000 homeowners will receive assistance...."

Under this program, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing will go in and repair, do emergency repairs with respect to furnaces, windows, or whatever the case may be, but oil tanks are not covered. If you have to replace an oil tank, people who would normally receive assistance, government will not replace an oil tank. I am just wondering, why would that be the case?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The oil tank replacement program is based on your income, and some people would have it done because their income is so low that it would be covered. For those who are above the threshold, they would have to pay for it themselves; those who are below would qualify for the replacement program, and it does not cover the full cost of the tank. I guess what we found is that, all of a sudden, the tanks are a lot more expensive than they used to be.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know if you got my drift on that.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing will not replace tanks. It is not a part of their home repair program, or their emergency repair program. There could be oil leaking on the ground and they will not replace it. I do not know if it is because of future responsibilities, if there is a leak or a spill, or whatever the case may be, but it is not covered by the Provincial Home Repair Program. I was just wondering. Maybe that question should go to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I suppose.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think I answered it the first time. If the individual living in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing qualifies, based on their income, they can get a rebate. They can get their $300 a piece.

MR. J. BYRNE: It costs around $1,000 or $1,200 now to do this.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, it doesn't cost that much. I haven't heard of it costing that much. If it does, I think somebody is getting taken to the cleaners, quite frankly.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is upwards to $1,000.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Two thousand?

MR. J. BYRNE: Not $2,000, upwards to $1,000.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, but if their income is less than a certain amount they would qualify for the $300 replacement, but nobody goes out and replaces all the tanks. You are right, that is not part of the program.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not getting through, I don't think. It might be my fault.

Subhead 2.1.05, Financial Assistance to Crown Corporations, Grants and Subsidies, $12 million: There is none budgeted this year but it was $12 million.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is the debt relief.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is debt relief.

MR. J. BYRNE: For municipalities?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Right.

MR. J. BYRNE: Subhead 2.2.02, Fiscal Policy, 01, Salaries, $306,800 budgeted, spent, $261,000 and back up to $322,300.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Are you on 01 or 02 now?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am on 2.2.02, Fiscal Policy, 01.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Okay.

You are wondering why it is up or why it is down?

MR. J. BYRNE: Both. Why it went down and back up again.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It went down because we didn't have any temporary assistants, as we though we would, and there was less overtime. It went back up to accommodate salary increases.

MR. J. BYRNE: Project Analysis, 2.3.03, 01 again, Salaries, $491,000 budgeted, $390,000 spent, which is $100,000 less, and this year back up to $516,000, which is a substantial increase. Why is that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is not really substantial. If you look at the budget and you look at the estimates for this year, really what that covers is just the salary increases. What is significant is the fact that it went from $491,000 to $390,000 and that is because we had positions that were seconded to other departments that were left unfilled.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 05. Professional Services, you budgeted $20,000, spent $5,000, and that just correlates to the previous answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: We are just being extremely fiscally prudent. We did not need to hire any people more than we needed so we did not spend it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 2.2.04. Tax Administration, again, Salaries. I suppose it is the same answer, is it?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The same answer, and also it was revised up because we had a retiring employee throughout the year and that was the severance that goes with an employee when they retire.

MR. J. BYRNE: Transportation and Communications, $191,000 budgeted, spent $100,000, and you are back up to $191,000.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think this year, when we looked at trying to really trim our own departments, people looked very carefully at a lot of things. One of the things here is that we had less travel and the mail charges were less than anticipated.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you were that financially responsible last year and you went from $191,000 down to $100,000, why would you not budget $100,000 this year instead of $191,000?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Again, what we are trying to do this year particularly is to improve our tax auditing. We have done some real targeting on trying to improve it because we have been doing a couple of things. Like, with the new system in place, a new computer system, we have gotten a lot better information and this year we will be trying to do more targeting to generate more revenue through the collection of outstanding taxes and doing extra audits and that kind of thing.

The bottom line is, if you do not spend it, it goes back into general revenue; and you can see that here, for example. In areas where you do not spend it, it goes right back into the general revenue. If you do not need it, it is there, and if you do spend it you have it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Subhead 12. Information Technology, you budgeted $391,000 last year and you are up to $491,000 this year - $100,000.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: As you know, the heading is Tax Administration. There have been a fair number of changes in the IT sector particularly as it relates to administering tax administration, so this is really allowing us to keep our operations upgraded and running in the Tax Administration Division.

MR. J. BYRNE: Subhead 2.3.01. Economics and Statistics, Salaries, $867,900, you spent $1,044,000, this year it is up the $1,318,000, so you are looking at almost $500,000 more. That cannot be related to salary increases, I suppose?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Part of it is salary increases, but we are really delighted with this increased amount in the budget, because this speaks to being very successful in this component of the department in securing federal contracts, which are 100 per cent funded by the federal government. So all of the salary increases that you see over and above what we had last year, excluding, of course, the 5 per cent increase, are 100 per cent funded by the federal government. It is based on contracts which that division had tendered for and won. Some of those contracts include a census project, an employer survey, and a First Nations project, so we are quite pleased with that.

If you look down through the rest of the subheadings, you will see that there is a significant increase particularly in Transportation and Communications. All of those increased travel expenses, over and above what we have budgeted, are again part of the 100 per cent federal funding that we have achieved through these projects. I would like to take the opportunity to compliment the people in my division, under Economic Policy and Statistics, for being successful in securing those projects.

MR. J. BYRNE: You have answered some of my next questions there on that section. Under Professional Services, 05., you had budgeted $15,000 and it has gone to $654,000. That is going to be paid for by the feds, 100 per cent?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Absolutely, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was just curious what that work would be, professional services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, some of this work, as you can imagine, is very specialized as it relates to economic and statistical analysis. You just do not pull your numbers together. You have to be able to do the analysis on what the census means, looking at Aboriginal statistics, so it requires that kind of expertise and that is why they contract out that stuff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under section 07. Property, Furnishing and Equipment, that $58,000 which was not budgeted for - none last year - this year it is for extra staffing under that section?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is right, because we had to set up some extra offices and that sort of thing to deal with the extra people we have hired over there to do the work.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it for me on Finance, other than the Public Service Commission.

CHAIR: Thank you, Jack.

Are there any other interventions from other committee members?

Then we are ready to deal with the question on the Estimates. I will ask the Clerk to call the first head, which has already been called, 1.1.01.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.3.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Finance, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I think that takes care of the Estimates of the Department of Finance. We probably should, before we move on to the Public Service Commission, minister, deal with the minutes. Did we find them yet? It is a routine thing but I am informed it has to be done. The minutes of the previous committee's meeting has to be called.

I will ask for a mover of the minutes of April 28 Government Services Committee, at which time the Works, Services and Transportation Department was heard.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

That takes care of the minutes.

That takes care (inaudible) Department of Finance. Thank you very much, Minister, and we will move now to the Public Service Commission, an aspect of the Estimates that are scheduled for this evening. I would ask you to - thank you officials, deputy and assistant deputy, who have been your usual efficient selves.

WITNESS: We are staying.

CHAIR: Oh, you are staying are you?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, we are staying.

CHAIR: Very good.

I will ask the minister then to introduce the officials who are here from the Public Service Commission, then we can move into the Estimates. I think they are on page 69, if I recall correctly from a minute ago. Page 69, Executive and Support Services, Public Service Commission. Minister?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you very much.

I want to thank Fonse and Sheila for joining me here this evening. I do want to make a few comments about the Public Service Commission because I think it does continue to play a very vital role in a professional, non-partisan, public service; that I do know, having worked with many public servants who are very much dedicated to excellence.

I think this has been a very interesting year, particularly for the Public Service Commission. There have been a few very interesting things happening, and exciting things in fact. One of which is that they continue to become very much involved in the hiring of new appointments for full-time public servants and making sure that they are merit based. Also, I want to say this year the overall responsibility for human resource planning has been transferred from the Public Service Commission to Treasury Board. I think that Fonse would agree that they have done a fair bit of work this year and put forward some fabulous information for us to allow us to start addressing many of the issues around the human resource needs, for government particularly. I think that this only helps to strengthen the planning. As we know, we have an aging workforce. We have a number of retirements over the next four to six years. We also have some very exciting programs, like the Graduate Recruit Program, which I think has been very successful and will even be strengthened this year.

Also, I think it is important to note that the Public Service Commission is an arm's-length guarantor of the merit component of hiring. This is very important. It also has completed some of its own restructuring and now has three divisions. Those divisions are: Staffing and Compliance, Employee and Departmental Services, and an Appeals and Investigation division. Each of these areas are doing very fine work.

We also have a very strong Employee Assistance Program which is basically a counselling services program. It is very important and the needs, I think, are growing, and you will see that as we go through. We continue to work on the respectful workplace program, which is also a very important part of work life for the public service.

Also, this year is very exciting in that we have an appeal and investigation unit of the Public Service Commission. There has been a lot of work done. In fact, there has been a pilot project put in place to deal with harassment in the workplace. Some of these investigations are quite necessary, unfortunately, but I think it is a very important component that people who feel harassed in the workplace know they have a place to go and that there is a process to be followed. I think, again, that this is an independent commission. Much of the stuff that is happening, I find out about it at the same time you find out about it. It is independent. I think that speaks very fairly and openly about what is needed in the Public Service Commission, because it has to be seen as fair, equitable and transparent.

Without any further ado, I am certainly open to answer any questions. I turn it over to Mr. Chair to take it from here.

CHAIR: Thank you.

The Deputy Chair will respond. After that, we will move to the other Committee members for other interventions, if there are any.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I will jump right into the Estimates themselves. As you said, on page 69, Salaries, there was $1,958,000 budgeted, you spent $1.7 million and back up to $2.143 million. Why the decrease and the increase?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, it covers nineteen permanent positions. I think the biggest component of it is that about $900,000 of that particular amount covers our Graduate Recruitment Program specifically. That is the main reason.

The 2002-2003, they were revised lower because our graduate program, I guess, was not as effective as we would have liked to have seen. We had a fair bit of turnover. When you have turnover, then you have delays in recruiting new members. That is why it was lower than budgeted.

This year, the reason it is higher, in addition to the ability to do thirty graduate recruits, we have hired two new investigators. That is the reason why the salary is higher for this coming budget year. I think that will again help us significantly - help us, meaning the Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 03. Transportation and Communications, you budgeted $119,000, you spent $103,000, and you are up to $134,000, and it is basically related to the previous answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Related to that, less travel done, and now there is going to be more travel anticipated because we have the two extra investigators now who will be working there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Professional Services, you had budgeted $149,000, you spent $111,000, and it is back up to $149,000, the same thing.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Again, this is mostly EAP services, what we are seeing, counselling, particularly for people who need it on an emergency basis. You cannot always predict what you will need on an emergency basis, but one of the things that we are seeing is that our Employee Assistance Program is growing, and I think that is probably a function of an aging workforce as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: In your opening remarks, and you just mentioned it again, and I am interested in that, actually, the Graduate Recruitment Program. You mentioned the number thirty. Can you give us a bit more detail on how that works; just more detail on that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, it is a funding piece that allows us to go out, and this year, particularly, with the new human resource plan that we have in place, we will be recruiting graduates, Memorial graduates mostly, to work in our hard-to-fill positions. For example, we know that we have two or three of our senior negotiators retiring within the next year or year-and-a-half, so we will probably, as an example, go to the Department of Business and try to specifically recruit graduates who have a strong background in labour relations.

In some other areas we know we have specific needs, and that is where we will target those graduate recruitments, so we actually put a fair bit of energy to recruit them. We give them a job, and hopefully at the end of the program we will help them secure a final job because they will have had the experience but they still have to go through the public service competition to do that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Those positions, for example, if you hire a graduate who has a business degree or whatever the case may be, and they came into government under this program, would you actually sponsor them to go and do more courses at MUN to fill the position or the needs that you need?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: We have done that, yes we have.

Right now we have one person over in my department who came in on a graduate improvement program and he has actually done some courses, again, to become more specialized in a particular area. So, we do that, but it would not be like a masters program or anything like that. It would be more like a six or an eight week course, or sometimes we send them off to do win-win negotiation courses and that kind of thing for example. So there are options available to them. They are able to access that kind of money, but not through the graduate recruitment program.

MR. J. BYRNE: You also mentioned the Public Service Commission restructuring three divisions. The one I picked up on was the appeals and investigations. You also mentioned harassment, and what have you. The appeals and investigations, what other types of appeals and investigations do they do other than harassments?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Classification appeals for both employees and managers.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, that is mostly it.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned a number of staff, which is nineteen. With respect to the civil service itself, do you have a handle on the number of civil servants within the government departments, the actual number of civil servants?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I do not know if we have them all here tonight. Do we have them here? Do you mean permanent ones?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am getting to the rest. Yes, permanent for now.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: We have a record of the permanent ones for sure. In terms of permanent, we have about 5,025 permanent, 1,800 temporary and seasonal, and that includes the summer employment of about 4 per cent or 275 contractual.

MR. J. BYRNE: Four percent. You said 275?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Within the civil service - you may not be able to answer this but you might be able to - I will not ask you to list them, but what would be the number of the various classifications within the civil service?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, there are so many thousands. I think that is pretty much an unrealistic question to ask.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not asking you to list them, just asking for a ballpark.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The number in various classifications?

MR. J. BYRNE: The number of various classifications, yes.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: There is HL, GS, MOS. There are so many classifications. There is the HP, all of the GS, and then the breakdowns of the GS. I suppose if you wanted to find that out you could look at all of the collective agreements, for example. Then you could look at the HAY scale to look at all of those.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can you give me some idea of the number of hirings for the last fiscal year?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: RNs?

MR. J. BYRNE: Hirings, how many people were hired within the civil service?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Let me see -

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not think that is too hard of a question.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I know we have that here. What did you say?

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not think that is too hard of a question.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, none of them are hard. It is just that some of them are more - I do not know what the word is, I will not say what the word is, but anyway, we had -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, I think that is sufficient. We had 1,596 job competitions last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifteen hundred and how many?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Ninety-six.

MR. J. BYRNE: Were there any departments that had more than others with respect to - I know the departments are different in the number of employees, but is there a ratio base higher within a given department?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, absolutely because Works, Services, for example, have all the seasonal workers. They deal with the crowd who mow the lawn in the summertime, for example, and plow the roads in the winter, so they would have more hirings because they have more seasonal workers than, for example, the Department of Finance. The answer is, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: If a line department wanted to hire a draftsman - a permanent position, now - or a clerical, or whatever the case may be, what process would be followed to hire these individuals?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: If it is a permanent position, it is done through the Public Service Commission. If it is a temporary position, and it is less than six weeks for an employee or six months for management, it is not done through the Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: But the process itself is through the Public Service Commission?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: They do the posting, and I have to compliment them. Their postings and their (inaudible) competitions are done within six-and-a-half weeks, which is one of the best rates in the country. The average, nationally, was nine weeks. Yes, that is right, nine weeks.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is posted -

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pardon me?

MR. J. BYRNE: It is posted, a position is posted, and you have applications for it. There might be five, or there might be 500. Just take me through the process, would you?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, you screen them. Then, once you screen them, the appropriate candidates would be interviewed. That process might take two weeks and it might take four weeks depending, exactly as you said, on the number. Then it is based on merit and the applicant with the most meritorious application would receive the job. They have done audits on that and they find that the process has worked very well.

MR. J. BYRNE: Years ago, I know that the Public Service Commission, when they interviewed people, would recommend, basically, to the department, maybe upwards of three people. Then the department would decide, make the final decision, back then. Is that the process today?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The departments have a role in it, as does the Public Service Commission, but it is based on merit. It is not based on someone's recommendation.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, once they are interviewed and the Public Service Commission has a board, it might be three individuals, and they would recommend to the department - three?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The department is involved in it. There is usually -

MR. J. BYRNE: One individual from the department, it used to be.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.

Because, as you know, about four years ago, in an effort to streamline our human resources in government, we put a number of various departments under one human resources department. Like, for example, Municipal Affairs, Government Services and Lands, and, I think, Environment, are all under the one HR person. So they would have a person involved in the process, from the department.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to temporary positions, and you have already answered the question somewhat, I have had people complain to me that temporary positions, people who get hired within the civil service, come in as a temporary person and then, once they are in a certain length of time, if an internal position opens up, they can then apply for the internal position and get a permanent job, and they may only be here a short time, which would be unfair to individuals on the outside. Does anybody want to address that?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is partially accurate, because a temporary can apply for a job, once they work inside. They can apply, but just because they can apply does not mean they are going to get the job. It means that the most qualified person or the person with the most merit will get the job. All it does is allow them to, in fact, apply internally.

MR. J. BYRNE: I can understand you saying that all it does is allow them to apply and the person with the most merit gets the job, but that is not always the case. I have known examples of that. In the meantime, that is why I am trying to get at the process today.

Severance - I am trying to get at what would be the normal severance for an individual who has been with government, say, twenty years or thirty years, as a civil servant, with respect to their holiday pay, unused leave, sick leave, or any type.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: You do not get paid for your sick leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I thought you asked that, I am sorry.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am trying to get a breakdown of any type of leave that would be given to an individual who is a civil servant, who has been in the system for ten, twenty or thirty years.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: If they are a bargaining unit employee, it is all written up in the various collective agreements. You know that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. What about they are not a bargaining unit employee?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: If they are not, then they are under the management plan. I think that plan has been in place for quite a number of years. Fonse, I do not know if you would like to speak to the specifics of the plan.

MR. FAOUR: When someone leaves -

CHAIR: If you would identify yourself for the recording.

MR. FAOUR: Okay, it is Fonse Faour.

CHAIR: They have called down already two or three times wanting to know who is who and what is what.

MR. FAOUR: Have they? Alright, it is Fonse Faour from the PSC. I apologize if I am a little bit ‘fluey'.

CHAIR: Just to make it easy for the recording crowd.

MR. FAOUR: Okay.

Essentially, when someone leaves the public service - now this is not administered by the Commission but this is general knowledge throughout the system. Anybody who has been for any length of time in the service, say twenty years, is entitled to one week severance for each year that they have spent in the service, up to a maximum of twenty weeks. Upon resignation, if someone retires or resigns from the service they would be entitled to that severance, plus whatever unused paid leave they have. For someone who has been in the service twenty or twenty-five years, that could be quite substantial. That is essentially it. If somebody is released from the public service, there is also an additional amount which comes from the redundancy grid.

MR. J. BYRNE: Which is how much? What is it based on?

MR. FAOUR: It is a grid based on a person's age and years of service. Without having access to the grid, I cannot tell you what it might be.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you supply me with a copy of that tomorrow or next week sometime?

MR. FAOUR: I do not see why not.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, it is one week for each year, maximum of twenty, and in this redundancy grid?

MR. FAOUR: And people's unpaid leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: Unpaid leave?

MR. FAOUR: I am sorry, unused paid leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: Which would be what, for an example - unused paid leave?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: There is a six-week paid leave for our managers a year. If you don't use it you get to accumulate it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is there a maximum on how much you can accumulate?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It depends how long you are here and how many years you have worked.

MR. J. BYRNE: If there is a maximum on your severance, one week per year, is there a maximum on this redundancy?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is not something I administer. I would not able to answer that question for you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Someone must have an answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: And it is not something you administer, so it is not anything you can do.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who administers it?

MR. FAOUR: That would be administered in Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Executive Council.

MR. FAOUR: Executive Council, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who would be responsible for that? What minister?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The clerk of the council is the one who usually does it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Does that fall under your responsibility, Treasury Board?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well I would speak to it, I guess, if it came up, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I am bringing it up.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well I am saying I do not have the information for you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Can you supply me with the information?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, I will see what I can do for you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I think this is going to get back - as a job becomes open within the civil service, I suppose anyone within the civil service could apply for it, but is there a process for promotion within the civil service?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes. I mean people apply for promotion and if they qualify they get it. That is one of the benefits of when we are going through the various subsections in Finance, for example, some are seconded and some apply. We have had people who have applied for positions and they get it, and we have others where people have not applied, but they have a certain expertise and they are seconded. So, it gives them all kinds of opportunity for advancement.

MR. J. BYRNE: What, if any - and I would imagine you are going to refer probably to the collective agreements on this one, to a certain extent - process for dismissal of civil servants? Is there a process to follow other than the - if you are within the collective agreement, I suppose, with the unions there is a process but if you are in management, is there a process for dismissal that has to be followed?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, the processes generally used throughout the system is called the hot stove technique, progressive discipline. That is how it is done.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, you basically keep a record of the individual's infractions or whatever the case may be, or faults or whatever, or letters on file and all these types of things?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is a progressive form of discipline. Generally, they are spoken to and given an opportunity, given some ability, to improve. I guess, if it gets very much to the point where it is dysfunctional, then they are asked to leave. Sometimes they are asked to leave with cause and sometimes they are asked to leave without cause. If the case is not firm enough to put it with cause, then they are often asked to leave without cause.

MR. J. BYRNE: I noticed in any of the estimates I have gone through, in any questions I have asked with respect to the salaries and hirings - I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, and correct me if I am wrong, that there was a freeze on hiring implemented a few years ago, but it seems to me that every department is hiring.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is not true.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not true. Okay.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No. In fact, it is quite the opposite. What we have said is that we have put a hiring freeze on and asked the departments to meet the objectives we have set with the 8 and 5 per cent reductions. We have made it quite clear in this House and publicly that we would not impose a hiring freeze to the detriment of any department being able to do its work that it considers essential.

For example, in the Department of Justice, we don't have a hiring freeze on, in the Department of Health we don't have a hiring freeze one, because they have made their case. In other departments, we have given deputy ministers the ability to make those decisions, and if we find that they are hiring more than we think is appropriate, then they come to Treasury Board and they have to be approved there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the hiring of summer students throughout the civil service, is there a number of students that you would hire or is there an allotment for funds within each department for hiring summer students?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think there is more of a need based on the departments. Some departments would probably have more students than others, like those in Works, Services and Transportation, for example, or those in various areas. There is not a set amount for everywhere.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is there a certain set of requirements or criteria for the hiring of summer students?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Generally, they just apply. That is what they do. If you look at it, if you are going to do a full competition, for example, first of all, they do not even come under the auspices of the Public Service Commission because they are temporary and they are just for a few weeks to give them experience and help them pay for university.

There is also the SWASP program, and that is done through the Community Services Council, so there is a combination there. They get a combination of a university certificate towards their tuition.

MR. J. BYRNE: We talk about hiring and firing, and the like, of summer students. I am not sure, but within the past couple of years, I think, there have been a number of settlements for people who were let go a few years ago, who were going to court. There were settlements out of court for these people who were, I suppose, for lack of a better word, fired - like ADMs and deputy ministers. Could you tell me how many are left to be settled and what kind of money has been paid out to these individuals over the past few years?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I would not have the numbers. I think in most cases they are done on a confidential basis. That is part of the agreement that is reached. I do not have the numbers.

In an operation where you have as many as 1,600 to 2,000 people go through the system just in terms of new jobs every year, and you have between 20,000 and 30,000 employees working in the system, you can imagine they are not all 100 per cent fully gainfully employed and that there are occasions when this happens. I would not be able to tell you where they are in the process, and how many more there are left to go.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can that be determined?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: As I said, I think most of the ones that are settled are settled outside. If there is a court process, that is generally a confidential settlement that is done between the individual and government. If the individuals want to tell you about the settlement and where they are in the process that would be something they would do, it wouldn't be something we would do.

MR. J. BYRNE: These settlements - and I think you probably know what I am referring to - are they at the request of the individuals or at the request of government, that these settlements stay private and not be made public?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think you need to be more specific about what you are talking about before I answer.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, a few years ago there were a number of deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers who were let go or fired and within the past year there have been some settlements, maybe some out of court also. I am just trying to get a handle on how many of these there were and how many are left to be settled, and what kind of money it is costing the taxpayers of the Province. That is all.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I would have to get that information, I don't have it. I don't know, Phil, how much of that -

MR. J. BYRNE: So, could I get it?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will tell you what I will do, I will certainly check with Justice to see where we are with that, because I am not prepared to release any information that would incriminate me as a minister or an individual, but more importantly as an individual on the other side. You know these people.

MR. J. BYRNE: Some of them.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: If you want to get the information, you are more than able to do that.

MR. J. BYRNE: If a non-disclosure agreement was signed with the Province, I would like to know whose request it was for non-disclosure. You don't have to get into individual amounts to individuals, it can be the total amount of the cases, how many - was it five, ten, fifteen or twenty - and the total amount of money that was settled on in court or out of court. This type of information I think is something that could be made public.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think I just answered it. I said I would check with Justice to see exactly where we are on that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Ernie.

MR. McLEAN: I have a comment - it is not going to be a question - I guess, to acknowledge and just, probably, compliment the Public Service Commission, and I will stick to the Labrador piece. I worked in the service for a little over twenty years and I saw a fair amount of improvement in terms of what the public service could offer to the Labrador employees of government. I have seen it continue, accelerated in the last number of years, as to the offerings up there for management training and front line training. An EAP program has been offered. The gender equity has come into play. I think it speaks well of what the public service has been able to do, especially in our portion of the Province, because we do have around 800 employees up there. They have seen a huge improvement in the offerings where they can have an opportunity to improve themselves, go up steps and go up job promotions and those sorts of things.

I think sometimes we need to compliment the service on that particular aspect of it and acknowledge the fact that this has happened. It is only improving the quality of work and the quality of service that we offer the people of the Province. I want to compliment you on it. I worked with Sheila as a civil servant prior to my getting in with government. I understand that there was a long way to go because there was not a whole lot offered in previous years, but it has been a good service.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you very much for those comments on behalf of Fonse and Sheila.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I want to thank the minister and her officials from the department and the Public Service Commission for appearing and answering the questions as they have been put, or committing to provide the answers that have not been available as were put forward by the Committee. I declare the workable Committee done for the night and everybody can go home.

Thank you.

On motion, Committee adjourned.