Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Ms Anna Thistle, MHA for Grand Falls-Buchans, replaces Mr. George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Manning): (Inaudible) shortly, and Mr. Andersen will join us later, I guess, if that is okay with everybody.

I would like to call the meeting to order for the Government Services Committee. I welcome the minister and her staff here this evening, and I welcome the members of the Committee.

What we will do is, I will ask the Clerk to call the head and then we will ask everybody to introduce themselves around the table and, if you could, wait until your red light comes on in front of you before you speak. Hansard is recording this. They are recording it downstairs and, in order to pick up your voice, they need the red light. Also, because members are in different seats, if you are required to answer a question, apart from the minister, if you could identify yourself for recording purposes.

What we will do is, we will call all the heads at the one time and if there are any questions we will move all around the department instead of taking one head at a time, so we will call all the heads inclusive.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: I will start with the minister and the introductions, and we will flow from there.

My name is Fabian Manning, MHA for the District of Placentia & St. Mary's and Chair of the Government Services Committee.

MS WHALEN: Dianne Whalen, Minister of Government Services.

MR. MORRIS: Winston Morris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Consumer & Commercial Affairs, and Acting Deputy.

MR. MACKENZIE: Bill MacKenzie, ADM, Government Services.

MR. BENNETT: Reg Bennett, Director of Occupational Health & Safety.

MR. MOORES: Wayne Moores, Manager of Financial Operations.

MS BARRON: Tracy Barron, Director of Communications for Government Services.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA for the District of Grand Falls-Buchans.

MR. LANGDON: Oliver Langdon, MHA for the District of Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.

MR. J. HODDER: Jim Hodder, MHA for the District of Port au Port.

MR. ORAM: Paul Oram, MHA for the District of Terra Nova.

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, MHA for the District of St. John's North.

CHAIR: Thank you.

We may be joined later by another member of the Committee.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay, we will take care of that right now; he has arrived. We will give him a moment to sit down.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) big supper.

CHAIR: He had a big supper.

You can introduce yourself when the red light comes on.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA for the District of Torngat Mountains.

Madam Minister, I apologize for my lateness. I stopped by Taylor's fish store and bought four cod heads. I stewed them for supper and they were too good to leave.

CHAIR: Now that we know Mr. Andersen is in a good mood, I will pass the floor over to the minister for some opening remarks.

MS WHALEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I welcome the opportunity to go over the activities of my department and answer any questions on our departmental estimates.

I will give you a departmental overview. The Department of Government Services is relatively new. It was formed when various programs and services were brought together from six other government departments in 1996. We provide a number of government front-line services to the public. To do that, we have a budget in 2004-2005 of $21.6 million and roughly 500 employees. We administer over ninety pieces of legislation.

The department originally consisted of three branches: Government Services, Lands and Consumer and Commercial Affairs. With the recent restructuring of government, Lands moved to the Department of Environment and Conservation, and Occupational Health and Safety was transferred to this department. The department also took over responsibilities for the Office of the Queen's Printer, Printing and Micrographic Services, and the Government Purchasing Agency.

We are working on legislation now to set up the Government Purchasing Agency as an independent agency to provide for greater transparency and accountability. The agency will report directly to me as minister.

We believe that in order for the Government Purchasing Agency to accomplish its role as watchdog over government procurement, the agency must be in a position of independence. One of the original goals of the department was to bring a one-stop approach to the processing of licences, permits, approvals and inspections. This one-stop shopping is delivered through our Government Service Centres around the Province.

Our staff perform inspections and enforcement on behalf of other government departments, including the Department of Health and Community Services, the Department of Environment and Conservation, and Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Our staff are responsible for ensuring public health and safety. They inspect restaurants, and test water supplies. They ensure the commercial vehicles travelling on our highways are safe. Workplace and public safety, as well as consumer protection, is a priority of the department. Our mission is to provide accessibility and quality service to protect the public. We do this by: regulating business and financial services; managing the commercial and vital statistics registry; enforcing environmental health legislation; and ensuring awareness of, and compliance with, legislation surrounding public, highway and worker safety.

Occupational Health and Safety was transferred to this department in February, bringing regulatory, inspection and enforcement functions of government under one department. This branch promotes and enforces standards that protect the health and safety of workers. This helps to prevent workplace injuries and illnesses. Strategic enforcement measures prevent workplace injuries, as well as the social and financial costs associated with these injuries. This government is committed to continuing and enhancing these enforcement efforts. We recognize the importance of public health, public safety and workplace health and safety programs.

Since taking office in November, we have cracked down on trucking companies to ensure the vehicles travelling on the Province's highways meet National Safety Code standards. In December, the Registrar of Motor Vehicles suspended the privileges of two companies to operate trucks on provincial highways because of safety concerns. As a result of this, other carriers are now requesting information on how to become compliant.

The Motor Registration Division is also undertaking broader investigations of carriers and inspection stations based on the results of routine inspections and official complaints. This has resulted in a number of charges being laid against Official Inspection Stations for issuing certified inspection slips without properly inspecting vehicles. We believe these actions are sending a strong message that our staff are out there enforcing these laws. One of our priorities for the next year is to increase our emphasis on highway safety programs.

As a result of the Budget, permanent weigh scale operations at Foxtrap and Port aux Basques will close. This will save $400,000 annually, and will result in ten layoffs. We are retaining all fifteen of our Highway Enforcement Officers, and we still have twenty-two Weigh Scale Inspectors across the Province. The inspections of commercial vehicles will still be done.

We chose to keep Pynn's Brook as the location for our West Coast weigh scale because it is the most strategic position to capture the West Coast traffic. Ninety percent of the vehicles coming off the ferry at Port aux Basques stop at Pynn's Brook. This location allows us to capture logging trucks travelling to Corner Brook as they come off Route 430 from the Northern Peninsula.

Based on the traffic data we have, the volume of commercial traffic going through Pynn's Brook is more than double than that of Port aux Basques. The Port aux Basques weigh scales have not had the ability to weigh trucks since being hit by lightening last June. The quote given to the previous government to fix the scales was $8,000.

In Foxtrap, changes to the road network have reduced the effectiveness of that scale. Foxtrap captures westbound traffic only. The Goobies scale is just over an hour's drive away and it can stop commercial traffic travelling in both directions. We also have portable weight scales that can be set up on the secondary roads and busier areas on both the West Coast and the Avalon.

We think this is the most efficient configuration of the Province's weigh scales. Given our financial situation, we have to ensure government operates as efficiently as possible.

We are also reducing the travel of our driver examiners. Our driver examiners operate out of eleven permanent offices in the Province. From these offices, the driver examiners travel to smaller communities periodically to conduct road and written tests, take photographs and do medical reassessments. Rent is usually charged in these communities and travel and overtime costs are involved. We want to reduce travel to those communities so we can to make more efficient use of our driver examiners. We want our driver examiners to concentrate on what they are trained to do, which are road tests. The written tests and photos can be performed by the counter staff at our Motor Registration Division offices.

We do not think it is unreasonable to ask people to travel to one of our permanent offices to renew their driver's licence every five years. You only have to seek your initial driver's licence once in your lifetime. Again, we do not think the trip is too onerous in these cases. We are taking into account the distance people would have to travel, and the volume of work in each of these communities.

A driver examiner will continue to service communities in Labrador because of these considerations. These measures will save $70,000 out of this year's Budget, and $100,000 annually once lease commitments expire. No driver examiners are being laid off. We are only trying to achieve efficiencies in the way they do their jobs.

We are also undergoing program renewal, as are all departments. This means trying to find ways to streamline and enhance programs to ensure the efficient delivery of services. We have already started this process in Government Services with the restructuring of the Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch. We announced in the Budget the consolidation of four divisions into two. This will create efficiencies in operations, and no services will be reduced. We have combined Trade Practices and Residential Tenancies into one division, now called Trade Practices.

We have created a single Financial Services Regulation Division by merging the former divisions of Securities and Insurance and Pensions. We want a regulatory regime that is efficient, flexible and transparent, while at the same time maintaining high standards. We plan to achieve this in part by eliminating unnecessary regulation and duplication. This is our plan for next year. Through the program renewal process, we will be examining all these regulations we enforce to ensure they are efficient and necessary.

We also want to make dealing with government easier and less time-consuming. We want to improve access to Government Services by making the most common transactions available over the Internet. We plan to enhance our E-Commerce capability at Motor Registration Division. Change of address and vehicle registration renewal can already by done on-line. We are also implementing a new on-line computer system for the registries of companies and deeds. This new system will greatly improve services to clients by providing on-line registration and searches of the companies registry.

We have increased the fees for the deeds and companies registries. This will help finance the new $4.5 million computer system over a three-year period. This was the plan of the previous Administration also.

We cut twenty-eight positions in the 2004-2005 budget. Three of these are vacant and four are management. The remaining twenty-one union positions are from the Government Services Branch and include the Weigh Scale Inspectors, Marine Vessel Inspectors and clerical staff.

We have brought down one of the most difficult budgets in our Province's history in an attempt to get our fiscal house in order. For Government Services, it has meant raising a number of fees, and in some cases introducing a new fee. The fee increases announced in the Budget mean an additional $14 million in revenue for the government.

Some of the fee increases allow for cost recovery. The increases will make the driver examiner function at our Motor Registration Division offices fully self-funding. The increase in the cost of renewing your driver's licence will provide for cost recovery for those operations. We have also increased the cost of registering a passenger vehicle to $180 from $140. This increase is allowing us to make a critical investment of an additional $7 million in the Province's road program. We need to do this to address the deplorable conditions of our roads.

The fee increases allow us to invest in critical infrastructure and other areas. This will create jobs and generate economic benefits. At the same time, government is moving forward with its economic growth agenda.

The Budget is tough, but I believe it is fair and it strikes a balance between our social responsibility and our fiscal reality.

In conclusion, part of the balance in my department was reinvesting $450,000 to retain seven Environmental Health Officers. They were hired temporarily two years ago to enhance drinking water quality.

With this Budget we are trying to achieve cost recovery for the services we provide. We also want to make sure we are making the most efficient use of our resources.

I thank the members of the Committee for this opportunity to explain our budgetary decisions. I now welcome your questions and comments.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Madam Minister.

I would like to take the opportunity now to congratulate you on your appointment to your portfolio, realizing that it is, as you just outlined, a very important department for the people of the Province, and we wish all the best to you and your staff.

I now turn the floor over to Ms Thistle first.

What we do is allot fifteen minutes to the first person and ten minutes after that on a rotating basis; we go back and forth.

MS THISTLE: So, I have fifteen minutes to start?

CHAIR: You have fifteen minutes now for your opening remarks.

MS THISTLE: Okay, thank you.

Good evening and congratulations, Dianne, on your new post.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MS THISTLE: It is a challenging one. You cover a lot of territory in Government Services. There is a lot to get your head around.

I listened intently to your opening remarks and it is clear that you had a lot of justification there for the measures that your government has taken to inflict pain on the people of this Province, and you explained that in great detail in your speech.

First, before I get into any real questions, I just want to have a few questions on the actual line by line here in your budget. There has been very little variation in the Minister's Office. I notice that there is only a small difference in the Salaries for the Minister's Office, 1.1.01.01, roughly seven thousand dollars, and that would account for what?

MS WHALEN: Could you repeat that question?

MS THISTLE: Yes, 1.1.01.01, under Salaries, Minister's Office.

MS WHALEN: I am sure this is step increases for some of the staff.

MS THISTLE: Step increases, okay.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: The next one would be under General Administration. Transportation and Communications, that would be line 03. I would just like to know what your plans are, as a new government, for that category, Transportation and Communications? How do you see spending that in the upcoming year?

MS WHALEN: Purchased Services increased, related to the increase in promotional costs related in entertainment.

MS THISTLE: The $70,900, you say Professional Services? No, Transportation and Communications, line 03.

MS WHALEN: The decrease relates to less travel than anticipated. Note one is the one you were going for, right?

MS THISTLE: Well, actually it is the same as -

MS WHALEN: Just a second now, I am not following you. 1.2.01, is that the one you are talking about?

MS THISTLE: Yes, it is.

MS WHALEN: Professional Services decreased due to a requirement to cover shortfalls in other areas. That is Professional Services, line 03?

MS THISTLE: No. I was asking, actually, 03. Transportation and Communications.

MS WHALEN: Yes, it is the same as last year.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but what is the make up? How do you plan to spend that money?

MS WHALEN: Transportation and Communications? Well, I guess, we will be doing it with our communications. We will be spending some money there. Under transportation, if we are going to be travelling anywhere, I guess that is where our transportation would be done there. I am advised also that the phone and the mail would come out of that account as well.

MS THISTLE: I noticed that under Professional Services, which you mentioned earlier, 05., although there was $35,000 budgeted last year it was not used, but you are putting it in again. Are you planning to go out to have any consulting done? What is your plan on that category?

MS WHALEN: Well, we could be going out for professional services. We are not sure right now. When I look at all the department and what I need to go out for, because I am still reviewing that department.

MS THISTLE: You also mentioned in your speech that you are in the midst of a total program review. Do you see any possibility of further mergers of parts of your department put together? Is the review being done internally by your own people or are you having consultants do it?

MS WHALEN: I am looking over my department right now and I know that very shortly I have to get into a program review. So I am looking at all my departments now.

MS THISTLE: Okay. So you have not started the program review?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: When you do, will that program review be done by internal officials or are you going outside for professional services to do the review?

MS WHALEN: I would think we would do it internally.

MS THISTLE: I notice that under 1.2.02, your IT budget there, Information Technology, 1.2.02.12, that is $1.2 million. How are you spending that this year?

MS WHALEN: That was increased due to the new computer system that we had developed by xwave for the registry of deeds and companies.

MS THISTLE: Okay. You are hoping to have that totally operational this year?

MS WHALEN: Yes. Actually, by the middle of June.

MS THISTLE: By the middle of June.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: What will you be able to do on that system once it is operational?

MS WHALEN: You will be able to go in and do your on-line with the companies. The directors will be able to get access to that information. You can also have the deeds - you can do your business on-line.

MS THISTLE: But you will not be actually able to do title search or any (inaudible)?

MS WHALEN: No, not yet, but that is something to work towards in the future.

MS THISTLE: Is it your plan to ultimately decide to do that in the future -

MS WHALEN: Yes, we are going to try to get -

MS THISTLE: - total searching of services on-line?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we are going to try and achieve that.

MS THISTLE: Under the same heading, 1.2.02., I notice that your Property, Furnishings and Equipment are up by $30,000. What is your explanation for that?

MS WHALEN: Our Property, Furnishings and Equipment decreased due to the requirement to fund a shortfall elsewhere. We originally had planned to purchase a vehicle from these funds.

MS THISTLE: Actually, it was budgeted last year for $135,000 but only $105,000 was used, and now you are up to $135,000 again.

MS WHALEN: We used the money elsewhere but we had to put it back again this year because we need to look at our vehicles; our fleet is old.

MS THISTLE: Is that part of an overall strategy by your government, to purchase vehicles instead of leasing them, or are you planning to do a review and see which would be the best alternative?

MS WHALEN: I have to do a review and look at that for the department.

MS THISTLE: Has any decision been made as to which route you will go?

MS WHALEN: No, there has been no decision made.

MS THISTLE: Are you planning to put that money in the Budget, just in case you decide to buy a vehicle?

MS WHALEN: I think we are going to have to buy a vehicle because our fleets are old right now. We are definitely going to end up buying one.

MS THISTLE: Under subhead 2.1.02., Financial Services Regulation, page 41, I notice that there is a $231,000 reduction from last year's spending. Do you have any idea...?

MS WHALEN: That was a Professional Services increase due to the $230,000 -

MS THISTLE: Professional Services.

MS WHALEN: That was a Professional Services increase due to the $230,000 Special Warrant to deal with the actuary study on insurance.

MS THISTLE: Yes, that was the actuary study on insurance.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Subhead 2.1.02.05., Professional Services, you are telling us that your study - is that the study that was undertaken by the previous government or your government?

MS WHALEN: Our government

MS THISTLE: Your government.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Who did the study for you?

MS WHALEN: The PUB.

MS THISTLE: The PUB?

MS WHALEN: Yes. They hired an actuary, really.

MS THISTLE: How long a period did it take to do that study? What was the time frame?

MS WHALEN: About three or four months.

MS THISTLE: The actuarial company, I know the ones that government uses mostly, but what company did that one?

MS WHALEN: Mercer's did the study for us.

MS THISTLE: Is that William Mercer? Mercer and....

MS WHALEN: No, it is not the pension people, if you are thinking of that one. She works for a consulting - Paula Elliott - Mercer Consulting.

MS THISTLE: It is under the firm name Mercer, is it?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: How long have you been in possession of that study?

MS WHALEN: Shortly after we got it we released it, around mid-March.

MS THISTLE: Around March.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Will the results of that study form the legislation that is about to take place?

MS WHALEN: Yes, there will be some things in the legislation.

MS THISTLE: There will be a combination, I guess, of a lot of studies.

Are you hoping to have that legislation on the table by Tuesday coming?

MS WHALEN: Actually, I think we may be tabling it tomorrow.

MS THISTLE: By tomorrow?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: If you could move on now to 2.1.03., which would be Commercial Registrations, that would be page 42. I am asking a question now on Purchased Services. I notice that figure has been increased by $46,300. Do you have an explanation for it?

MS WHALEN: Which one are you talking about, Anna? What line?

MS THISTLE: It is line .06, Purchased Services.

MS WHALEN: Is it the decrease you are talking about here?

MS THISTLE: The increase of $46,000.

MS WHALEN: It is a decrease, isn't it?

MS THISTLE: From last year, from the Revised.

MS WHALEN: The fees went down because of the personal properties.

MS THISTLE: Last year the fees went down?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: But this year you are increasing it, for what reason?

MS WHALEN: It was anticipated increased usage for this year.

MS THISTLE: Anticipated usage of?

MS WHALEN: That is the personal property and security system which is on-line.

MS THISTLE: It is a company that looks after the administration of that?

MS WHALEN: Yes, Unisys Canada.

MS THISTLE: And you think they are going to increase their fees this upcoming year, do you?

MS WHALEN: No. The fees have actually gone down, but the usage is going to go up. There will be more usage this year.

MS THISTLE: Oh, it is per transaction. Is that what you are saying?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: That would account for the increase?

MS WHALEN: Do you need a full explanation?

MS THISTLE: Yes, I would appreciate it.

MS WHALEN: The deputy is going to give that.

MR. MORRIS: That is the Personal Property Security Registry, which is on-line with Unisys Canada and xwave. So it is two fees actually. The fees are recovered from users. Government collects the fees and then pays it back to those two firms. Unisys changed their fee midway last year from a transaction fee to a flat fee, which resulted in a reduction for last year, but this year the flat fee will be in place for the full year. So, we anticipate that our fee would be a little higher than it was last year but lower than the year before. Do you know what I mean?

MS THISTLE: Yes, I know what you mean.

CHAIR: Please identify yourself for the record.

MR. MORRIS: Winston Morris, sorry.

CHAIR: No problem.

MS THISTLE: Thank you for your explanation, Winston.

Also, under the same heading, 2.1.03.12, Information Technology, that is up by $390,000. What is the extra money needed for?

MS WHALEN: Well, the IT increased due to the new computer system that has been developed by xwave for the Registry of Deeds and company. In addition, section 1.2.02, the cost of this system totalled $4.5 million and is to paid over the next three years starting in 2004-2005. The current account revenue measures have been implemented to recover these expenditures to the tune of $1.7 million.

MS THISTLE: What will you be able to do more with this system this year than you could last year?

MS WHALEN: We will be going on-line. There will be more on-line usage this year and more access on-line now with the new software program that they are implementing with xwave.

MS THISTLE: I know that you can pay a motor vehicle licence and all these kinds of things -

MS WHALEN: You can do the same thing at the Registry of Deeds now. You will be able to do it.

MS THISTLE: Because I use that service myself but at the Registry of Deeds, what can you do?

MS WHALEN: The same as on the MRD. You will be able to do the same thing (inaudible) your credit card coming through on-line - for the companies, any information you want.

MS THISTLE: That is up and running?

CHAIR: Excuse me, Ms Thistle -

MS WHALEN: It will be up, in June.

MS THISTLE: Okay.

CHAIR: In continuing on that line, if you want to just finish up that group of questions, but your time has expired.

MS THISTLE: Okay. Well, that was all for that section. I will just pick it up later.

CHAIR: All right, thank you.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MR. LANGDON: The way that I see it, if the rest of the people agree with it, I do not mind if Anna takes another five or ten minutes. I mean that is - rather than breaking up (inaudible), carry on and do it. Then come to me, and if I am five or ten minutes or fifteen minutes, when that is done then go to Jim. I mean, that is the way I see it. Is everybody okay with that?

AN HON. MEMBER: I have no problem with that.

MR. LANGDON: Finish off what you are doing there now and then we can get (inaudible).

CHAIR: I have no problem with that. Just make sure all the Committee (inaudible).

You can continue on Ms Thistle, with the grace of your fellow Committee members.

MS THISTLE: Okay, thank you very much.

I would like to move into Motor Vehicle Registration now, if I could, page 43. The first heading would be 3.1.01.01, which is under Salaries. I note that Salaries are up by $121,700 over last year's budget. Can you tell me what new positions have been added in the past year?

MS WHALEN: Well, some of that salary cost increase is due to the severance packages paid; severance paid, because we had some people go out with severance.

MS THISTLE: But would you have been aware of that at the time of the Budget?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: You would not have been?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: So, what would account for that difference at Budget time?

MS WHALEN: The salary cost was increased due to the redistribution of positions as well. Some of the positions were redistributed.

MS THISTLE: What do you mean by that?

MS WHALEN: Some people went into other positions. They went into other areas and they got classifications - some of them got their (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Are you saying that they transferred from within your department?

MS WHALEN: Yes, it was within the department that they were moved around.

MS THISTLE: You know, $121,700 would indicate a considerable amount of movement when you are looking at increasing salaries.

MS WHALEN: There were three or four positions moved into our administrative headings.

MS THISTLE: What would be the names of those positions? What are they?

MS WHALEN: I do not have the answer to that, but I guess I can get it for you.

MS THISTLE: Were these bargaining unit positions that went into management?

MS WHALEN: Yes, when we consolidated the two divisions, some of these were moved around.

MR. MACKENZIE: (Inaudible) other divisions.

MS WHALEN: As Bill said, there were some staff moved from other divisions within our department.

MS THISTLE: Okay.

Can I ask you this question? I know there have been considerable layoffs and so on. When your budget was made up for your department, were the people who were working as of April 1 included in your salary here in your budget? Since your budget, you have indicated certain positions will be eliminated.

MS WHALEN: The layoffs were included in the budget.

MS THISTLE: In other words, the figures showing here in the Budget, when the Budget was printed and given out here in the House by the Finance Minister, that told us that whoever was going to be laid off in the next sixty days, which is now, that figure was removed from your department salaries?

MS WHALEN: The original budget number was included when we did our budget.

MS THISTLE: Based on that information, any layoffs that would occur after the Budget was delivered will be a savings to the department, before the end of March of 2005.

MS WHALEN: No, there would be no savings.

MS THISTLE: Well, why wouldn't there be savings, if you carried a budget line there, you have laid off the people and you are not going to pay out the salaries?

OFFICIAL: The salaries were never in the budget for this year.

MS WHALEN: (Inaudible) in the budget?

OFFICIAL: Right. They were not included this year.

MS WHALEN: They were not included this year.

MS THISTLE: They were not included. You knew, when the Budget was produced, who you were going to lay off and you did not include their salaries in your budget, in the payroll. Is that correct?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: That is different from what I have heard at other Estimates. In other words, when the budget was produced for the Minister of Finance it did not - everyone who was going to be laid off, their salaries were taken out of the total payroll. The payroll we are looking at right here now - well, take this category, 3.1.01, Administration. Whatever salaries are there include everyone who is going to work the twelve months of this year, do they?

MS WHALEN: No. There were overall savings identified. We were not sure who would be laid off at that point, but we had to identify some savings.

MS THISTLE: While they were employed by Government Services you had to make provision for their salaries, so now, sixty days later, they are gone, and it will be a savings for the remainder of the year for your department.

MS WHALEN: There was no salary paid in April. It was ten days into May that their salaries were paid.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but for the remainder of the year you are not going to pay these people, so there should be significant savings.

MS WHALEN: There was no budget for the rest of the year. We never budgeted savings.

MS THISTLE: I am going to ask you to do this for me, if you would, because I still think there is some confusion there. If you would, I would like for you to undertake to give me, before the end of May - and probably you can make a note of it, if you would - in your department, I would like to know the number of filled positions, I would like to know the number of vacant positions, I want to know the number of vacant positions that you intend to fill, and the number of vacant - am I going too fast?

MS WHALEN: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: The number of filled positions, the number of vacant positions, the number of vacant positions that will be filled -

MS WHALEN: We have had vacant positions on our books for a long time.

MS THISTLE: That is the next one, the number of vacant positions that will not be filled.

I would also like to know, in that list as well, what positions were in your department last year that are not going to be in your department for this year. Probably that might settle this question that I am now asking you.

MS WHALEN: Okay.

MS THISTLE: I will move on now.

I am also curious about the Driver Examinations and Weigh Scales Operations, 3.1.02., on page 43, and the Salaries, of course, under .01. There is a significant drop in Salaries, $410,000. I think you might have explained that in your speech. You said you were going to save $400,000.

MS WHALEN: Yes, that would be from the weigh scales that we would save those savings.

MS THISTLE: How many people will be laid off because of that?

MS WHALEN: Ten.

MS THISTLE: Ten.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: What did you mention about twenty-two weigh scales?

MS WHALEN: We have twenty-two weigh-scale operators still on staff. There were thirty-two here all together and we laid off ten.

MS THISTLE: Okay.

Where are they going to be laid off?

MS WHALEN: I cannot answer that because they have some bumping rights to go through, so I am not sure which ones would be affected by it, because in the collective agreement they have certain rights, the people who were laid off in the stations. There are ten in total.

MS THISTLE: We know where the scales are going to close.

MS WHALEN: Yes, in Port aux Basques and Foxtrap.

MS THISTLE: How many people were employed in Port aux Basques?

MS WHALEN: Four.

MS THISTLE: Four. So they will have to move out of Port aux Basques to find new employment.

MS WHALEN: Well, they have bumping rights; they can relocate.

MS THISTLE: Yes.

Also, how many people were employed in Foxtrap?

MS WHALEN: Four in Foxtrap.

MS THISTLE: That's eight, and there are two more. Where would the other two be from?

MS WHALEN: Two on the portable in Harbour Grace.

MS THISTLE: In Harbour Grace?

MS WHALEN: Yes. (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: On the portable weigh scales, those two individuals who worked out of Harbour Grace, did they -

MS WHALEN: They would have bumping rights as well. They will probably be bumped into the system somewhere else.

MS THISTLE: I know, but they were probably living in Harbour Grace, were they?

MS WHALEN: I don't know.

MS THISTLE: Where they, then, mobile, moving around all part of the Province with the mobile unit?

MS WHALEN: They were down in the Harbour Grace area.

MS THISTLE: Oh! They didn't come west of the overpass, did they?

MS WHALEN: They didn't even go off the Avalon.

MS THISTLE: They didn't go off the Avalon?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: The mobile weigh scale that was operated on occasion in Port aux Basques, where would that one come from?

MS WHALEN: Stephenville. There is a portable down around Stephenville.

MS THISTLE: Okay, and are you going to continue to use that one?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we are.

MS THISTLE: Is it two individuals who operate that one?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: That was a very big move for you to make. Did you consult the people in Port aux Basques, the users, the marine ferry terminal, to see how many people, how many truckers, were actually using that weigh scale in Port aux Basques?

MS WHALEN: I had taken some advise from my officials on that decision.

MS THISTLE: Did you consult with the community on the impact that it was going to bring to the community and surrounding area?

MS WHALEN: It was not the impact I was concerned about at the time, because it was strategically located. The traffic that was coming from the west had to be caught in Pynn's Brook and we had to have one in Central and one out here on the Avalon. Goobies would be the one that we would use, because it catches the traffic both ways.

MS THISTLE: So you feel comfortable in making a decision that all the tractor trailers that come off the boat in Port aux Basques don't need to be checked until they get to Pynn's Brook?

MS WHALEN: Well, 90 per cent of the traffic comes into St. John's. The data tells us that 90 per cent of the traffic that comes off the ferry comes to St. John's.

MS THISTLE: We are hearing that in excess of 40,000 trucks come off the boat and head east from Port aux Basques.

MS WHALEN: I know, because when the come from Canso they have to be weighted in Canso before they get into Port aux Basques.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but are they inspected? We are looking at inspections.

MS WHALEN: I still have my fifty highway enforcement officers out there. They are still going to do those inspections. They can randomly pull trucks over any time they want.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but there is not going to be a stationary unit in Port aux Basques designated for that sole purpose.

MS WHALEN: No, there won't be, the Pynn's Brook one is the one that is designated for that purpose.

MS THISTLE: It was interesting, the other day I heard someone in the media say that a lot of these truckers are overtired to begin with. By the time they get on the boat in North Sydney they are going to have a snooze or they are going to stand up to a lottery machine or they are going to drink all night and then they are going to head onto the highway. By having someone in your weigh scale operation they were able to detect that kind of thing but now we are going to let them ride on through, right until they get to Pynn's Brook.

MS WHALEN: Not necessarily. We can have them randomly checked. Our enforcement officers will be on the highways to be able to check them. Also, there are our portable scales to be used at random, as well, to haul them over and check them.

MS THISTLE: We heard -

MS WHALEN: They are not going to be just flying right on through without any checks or balances. The mechanism is in place to still check those trucks.

MS THISTLE: But you did say random?

MS WHALEN: Everyday we will have our people out on the highways. They work all days. We even have them in the evenings, as well, if we need them.

MS THISTLE: How many inspectors do you have?

MS WHALEN: Fifteen.

MS THISTLE: How many inspectors will look after that end of the highway?

MS WHALEN: Well, I will leave that up to the managers in that particular area to do the operations there; what they see they need.

MS THISTLE: You have fifteen highway inspectors for the entire Province?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Fifteen highway inspectors, and at every -

MS WHALEN: I would like to have more, actually, but the money is not in the funds right now. With the state they have been left in, I cannot hire more people. I have to use the best resources I have and make efficiency of the resources I have.

MS THISTLE: Well, let me tell you, you cannot put a price tag on human lives. You cannot -

MS WHALEN: Oh, I know that.

MS THISTLE: - put a price tax on safety, and I think the person who is sitting behind you in Occupational Safety would be the first to admit that. You know, you are talking about saving $400,000. That would not even cover an accident if someone were in a situation with a tractor-trailer for liability.

When I listened to you in your speech, you said that the previous government did not fix a piece of equipment that would cost in the vicinity of $8,000 so that weigh scale would be active. Now, that has no reflection on the previous government. People work in those weigh scales, and if they cannot report -

MS WHALEN: They did not weigh the trucks.

MS THISTLE: If they do not report it to their supervisors and get their work done, that is not a reflection of government. That is a reflection of the people who work there. They must have their equipment working. So, that is a flimsy excuse to say that it wasn't working since last July.

MS WHALEN: Well, it wasn't. That is an actual fact.

MS THISTLE: Well, let me tell you, you were elected in October and your duty, as a minister, is to make sure everything is working within your department.

MS WHALEN: If I had the money, Ms Thistle, I certainly would do it.

MS THISTLE: Well, I tell you, you cannot -

MS WHALEN: I am sorry for the way I found this Province when I came into office. Certainly, the finances of this Province was in a sad state.

MS THISTLE: It is all about choices, but I will move on to another area because it seems that you are determined, that you have made that decision. Even though you have gone back and reconsidered others, you do not see this one as important.

I can tell you, from the people who are contacting us - and I am sure they are contacting you - we see this as a great risk to the travelling public. If you are familiar with that part of the highway, the twists, the turns, the wind, everything, it is a very dangerous situation you are creating as a new government.

MS WHALEN: As the finances improve - and my decision, I can always revisit.

MS THISTLE: As I said before, it is about choices, and you have made that one. Highway decisions are very important.

MS WHALEN: They are, indeed.

MS THISTLE: I only hope nothing happens from this move that you have made, but in my opinion, and the opinion of many people, it is not a good decision.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MS THISTLE: Oliver, I am going to let you take over now because I am going to put together my questions.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: One of the things you said there, and it perked my interest. You were saying - and if I understand it correctly - that you are going to use portable weigh scales on the Southwest Coast, in the Port aux Basques area, to do random sampling of trucks that come into the Province. I would like to know - and again, either one of the officials can feel free to answer if you do not know the answer. I do not mean that you are going to know every one; obviously, it is impossible.

When you look at the Port aux Basques operation where the vehicles came into the Province, there were four people who were employed there. What was the cost to cover them? How much money - because I hear that they do collect fees, they give out tickets and all these types of things - was collected there? How much money have you budgeted, in a sense, for the portable scales? What would be the difference between leaving the four people in Port aux Basques with the configuration that you plan to do?

MS WHALEN: Bill, do you want to answer that for the member?

MR. MACKENZIE: I do not know if I have every part to your question, Mr. Langdon. The total cost is about $200,000 for salaries. There would be an extra $20,000 or $30,000 in associated costs; vehicle use, telephones and those sorts of matters. Maintenance changes year to year. As the minister said, when we had lightning strike last year - the maintenance of those scales is supposed to be done by Transportation and Works, but they did not have the money and we did not have the money. That is why the scale was not repaired.

Maintenance varies year to year. The two-person unit in Stephenville, that, again, is about a $100,000 salary cost with benefits and so on - I do not know if I have the rest of your question.

MR. LANGDON: That is portable?

MR. MACKENZIE: A portable unit, yes.

MR. LANGDON: That is a portable unit; that would be $100,000?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, there are two staff for that.

MR. LANGDON: Okay. You are spending $200,000 in the first place so you are saving $100,000. How much, or how many dollars were collected by the inspectors at Port aux Basques for tickets and other violations when they arrived at the beginning of that destination?

MR. MACKENZIE: I did not bring the fine revenue with me, but we already had the $100,000 spent on the portable team from Stephenville, so that was a cost anyway and we have retained those positions.

MR. LANGDON: Right, but you are going to keep those two in Stephenville, on a portable?

MR. MACKENZIE: They work out of Stephenville. That is the home base. They cover the Southwest Coast area, the Codroy Valley, Robinsons, McKay's and so on, wherever they are needed. They roam the area with the portable scale.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

How much money was collected in fees and the other things?

MR. MACKENZIE: I do not have that with me. I do not have that information with me, the fine revenues and so on.

MR. LANGDON: Can you probably get it and have it as a part of the question for us, for the department?

MR. MACKENZIE: Sure.

MR. LANGDON: Because, really, what it boils down to when you talk about highway safety and so on, you start to boil down to probably $100,000 - you have the portable scales there and whatever - but those portable scales will become a liability with maintenance and whatever. We are looking at, as I said, the concern for the travelling public on the highways.

There is no doubt in my mind that Port aux Basques is the entrance for the large majority of those tractor trailers coming into the Province, and it does give me some concern with that. I think none of us would want to see anything happen; but, if it does, then God forbid.

The other thing I want to go back on, I am now looking at a heading in the department for the Driver Examiner. In the original piece of work that was given to us by Executive Council, it showed in my district, for example, that the driver examination that was done by a person who came out of Grand Falls-Windsor, came to Harbour Breton and came to Bay d'Espoir, I am not sure, once a month or once every two months or once every three months - I am sure your log would indicate that - when I got the information, it showed that both of these particular communities had lost their service.

I went out and, of course, to the people in the area, when they asked about what services were curtailed, I said: Well, you have lost your driver examination person for Harbour Breton. You have lost the one for Milltown.

Yesterday - and I had not seen it before because it has never come to me - I think it was a press release from the communications people within the department, saying that one of these places had been reinstated, Milltown.

MS WHALEN: Can I just explain to you about that, the driver examiners?

MR. LANGDON: Just let me finish and then you can.

The thing about it is, it puts me, as a member - and I am not a person to be argumentative; I am not that type - it puts us into a very awkward situation. When I go back into a region that I represent and say that your service is gone, and before I get a chance to move out it is already given to the correspondent in a local paper, the Coaster, that one of these services that I had just said was cancelled, is reinstated, you can see the dilemma that it would put any MHA in, regardless of whether you are on the government side, or Opposition, or whatever. It is a very uncomfortable position for us.

MS WHALEN: Let me apologize for that. The decisions were not made until Friday afternoon. As I said in the House on Wednesday, I did not have them made. There was a document that went over with all examination sites on it. The decision for the actual closing of sites was not made.

MR. LANGDON: But it was in the information that we had been given.

MS WHALEN: Yes, and I apologize for that because I, as minister, have to take the responsibility, I guess, for that, but it was in error. The decisions were made Friday afternoon. When I came back from Gander on Friday, I came in, and because of the, I guess, attention paid to that issue, I figured, well - because it was not really on my priority list with other things I had - I said: It is just as well to expedite this now and make the decisions. So, I never, ever, reversed any decisions because they were not selected. The sites were not selected. There were all sites, and I could realize a $70,000 saving this year and $100,000 next year with regard to that decision, so they were made and Milltown is the one that Harbour Breton will have to come up to. It could have been in Grand Falls-Windsor but I looked at the distance and I looked at the volume of the written test, the road test, and that sort of thing, and then I made the decision on that criteria.

MR. LANGDON: I accept that, but the thing is, it would be much easier - hindsight is always twenty-twenty - for you, through your communications people, to send a memo to those of us who are affected, a memo to the people who are affected. Then it would cause a lot less, not embarrassment, but a lot of uncomfortableness for us and certainly for your own department as well, if that were to happen in the future.

MS WHALEN: Well, it also happened to my own colleague here, because they did not know as well. They were embarrassed.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I understand that. Again, I do not want to be argumentative - that is not my nature - but it does present difficulty for us.

The other thing is, I want to ask a question, the same as I did when I spoke in the House, about the closing of the Human Resources office in Burgeo, because you have to understand the South Coast. For people who live in Fransway, two-and-a-half hours from Burgeo by boat, and then when you get to Burgeo the HRE office that was there is now closed, and then you have another two-and-a-half hours to get to Stephenville. So that is five hours. That is like asking somebody from St. John's to go to Springdale for your Social Services thing. That is a long, long ways out for people along the coast.

I am just thinking about the same thing, and I do not know how many dollars it would entail the department. The examiner has to come from Grand Falls down to Bay d'Espoir, which is 200 kilometres - and he would probably spend the day or whatever in there. From Bay d'Espoir down to Harbour Breton - and this service has been there ever since I can remember. I got my licence when I was a young boy by having the office there - because Harbour Breton is then another 100 kilometres, as I said, from Bay d'Espoir where the service is done. How much are you, from the department - I know you do not have the answer there, but probably you can consider to try and find the information for me. How much are you actually saving by having the person go to Milltown (inaudible) the bay, and not go into Harbour Breton to do the actual road test?

If you understand the coast again, in the summertime it is okay. In the wintertime - we have what we call the highlands between Bay d'Espoir and Harbour Breton - day after day after day the road is closed and you cannot get there. Even though I have heard you say you only get a licence once in a lifetime and all that kind of stuff - and remember, that for us the nearest counter service from Seal Cove, my hometown, Harbour Breton, Bay d'Espoir is in Grand Falls-Windsor. We do not have any other counter service, so it is a long ways out. I am just wondering, how you are able to make the decision? Then, how much would it have cost to have had the actual operator go to Harbour Breton, when he is down in Bay d'Espoir, to do the actual road test down in that area?

MS WHALEN: I think, Oliver - if you do not mind me calling you that.

MR. LANGDON: No, not in the least.

MS WHALEN: What we have been trying to do is free up the examiners to do, basically what they are trained to do, and that is the road testing. So, if we were to go down to- it would have been an extra two-and-a-half hours round trip.

One of the things that some of the communities would be doing - the community councils, that you could do. The written test can be administered by someone in a town hall. That would save them time in having to travel to Milltown, at no expense, because there is rent involved there, there is overtime and there is travel time involved in all of these examiners when they are on the road. What we have been saying is, even to make it more convenient for the people who did not want to go out to do their road test, they can probably arrange with their town councils to have someone administer the test there. But, you have to go to Milltown to get your road test because we are trying to free up our examiners to do more road tests, as opposed to doing a written test. We are trying to ask them to go into the counters and get this done.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I understand that, but it is really an inconvenience for people who live in the rural part of the Province. For Wally, I guess, who has the North Coast of Labrador, there is no district on the Island part of the Province that is any more isolated. I have six isolated communities, and that is the point that I tired to make to Minister Burke about that situation and then having the people drive into Grand Falls for counter service.

I will leave it at that now, for that point, and go to Wally.

CHAIR: You are right on time, Mr. Langdon.

Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: I just want to go back and touch base again on the closing of the weigh scales, and so on, at Port aux Basques. Minister, as the critic for Transportation and Works, I get all kinds of calls regarding the roads and so on. People have called from every district with concerns about spring washouts of roads across this Province. No doubt, it is a very serious issue, but I do not think I have had as many calls on a particular issue as I did when you announced that you will close the weigh scales in Port aux Basques.

I guess it goes back to eighteen years of working for the government stores on the Coast of Labrador, where everything was ordered in from the Island and trucked in. I made the comment sometimes to wholesalers in St. John's, as to why they were sometimes a bit more cheaper than those on the West Coast, Grand Falls and even in the Lewisporte area, when a truck would have to come through Port aux Basques or even through Argentia. They said: No, no, the majority of the freight for the Avalon Peninsula comes by Oceanex, where thousands of containers come in on a weekly basis on these boats. It goes back to, I guess - I will not use the word double-dipping, but probably double loading.

When we were forced to use the Cartwright terminal to ship freight to the North Coast last year instead of Lewisporte, we had companies who would haul to Labrador, to L'Anse au Loup, and there the stuff was taken off and then a trucking company trucked it from there to Cartwright. It brings in the same case scenario which the truckers are talking about now: a trucker comes across, first of all, they cross on the boat, and we all know and hear on the news of the rough trip they had. When you get to Port aux Basques, what they are saying is that really there is going to be no one there now to check the load, the stuff on the tractor trailer, from the rock and the roll and all this kind of stuff, where it has moved back and forth. That was just a small incident.

The other part is this: You will not hit your first weigh scale until you come to Pynn's Brook, between Deer Lake and Corner Brook. Now, you have two tractor trailers that come across on the boat, and I will say that Joe Blow finishes his load in Stephenville. He has an extra 1,000 pounds or 2,000 pounds to go on to Corner Brook. His buddy is there with him, he is already maxed out, and he says: Not a problem. There are no weigh scales. I will load your 1,000 pounds or 2,000 pounds on because I do not have to cross any weigh scale until I pass Corner Brook.

You are going to see people who, yes, will go through the scale in Canso and they will be weighted, but, guaranteed, rest assured now, where the scale is gone from Port aux Basques, there are going to be people who are going to be overloading their trucks and making it a bigger danger for people travelling on our highways.

Again, I have heard several callers who have called and said: Well, when the trucks got in, they had to go through the inspection services, and it gave them a chance to get ahead.

Now, when the truckers come off, they are automatically going to go on. I know that you are saying that you have your highway enforcement officers there, but they will pull people over at random; there is no question about it. There is a highway inspector looking after just ordinary vehicles and so on, in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and he does; he checks people at random. Because the appearance of a car looks good, that really does not mean that it is completely safe.

That is a concern, Minister. A lot of people have raised that question to me. They fell that there will be, between Port aux Basques and Corner Brook - if you look at population-wise, a lot of freight that comes off is going to go from Port aux Basques to Corner Brook. A lot of the freight is going to be unloaded prior to hitting your weigh scale at Pynn's Brook. It is a big concern, Minister, a big concern.

I will certainly ask you to revisit this, because while the scales may have been down, these four people who were there in Port aux Basques, they did the inspections. No doubt you have already done it, but I would like to see on paper the number of violations that were recorded at the scale in Port aux Basques as compared to the scales in Pynn's Brook into Grand Falls-Windsor and, I think, now Goobies. I would like to see the stats of the violations, where it was noted and where it occurred.

The last thing I will say on this, Minister, is that I would rather have it noted in Corner Brook, before they travel almost halfway across the Province to Deer Lake before they hit the inspection scale. So, again, I would ask you to revisit that.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

I will be also monitoring it this year and comparing it to last year as well, the stats. That should be available after.

MR. ANDERSEN: Minister, how many electrical inspectors do you have in Labrador? Again, I do not know myself, but the reason I ask is....

MS WHALEN: We have one electrical inspector in the station in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

Minister, when people build houses - and we only have a very short season. Torngat Housing builds about twelve to fifteen houses on the North Coast of Labrador a year, and so does Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and all these individuals. Minister, there are times when I have gone and called and called your people, waiting to get work done before too late in the year, and there are times when we have had to wait because the electrical inspector - well, he has to go to the South Coast Labrador; he has to go to Labrador West. There were times when the week that the electrical inspector was supposed to travel to the North Coast, the weather was bad; and, again, the lack of roads on the North Coast, the inspector only travels by air. There were times when people had to wait a month-and-a-half for the electrical inspector to come in so they could apply to Hydro for a hookup. Again, would you have any idea as to how you might improve that service?

MS WHALEN: I understand that we do have a problem there, but we are trying to improve on that.

Bill, if you would just answer Wally on that question.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. ANDERSEN: Minister, the other one is that -

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen, Mr. MacKenzie wanted to answer your question on that for a second.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

MR. MACKENZIE: It is difficult to serve the coast and conduct electrical inspections. There are costs, there is the scheduling. If you have one inspection in a given community, Hopedale, you make the trip, you spend the entire day, the full flight cost for that one inspection, so it does make it difficult.

There is one option in that, if the electricians are designated as Code 1 or Code 2 by a chief inspector, Code 1s do not have to have their work inspected. Based on their track record, they can get a permit, and Hydro or Newfoundland Power will hook up, because they are Code 1. They do not require an inspection by an electrical inspector.

Code 2s can also authorize a power hookup. They will ultimately have to have the work inspected, but the inspection does not have to be prior to the electrical hookup. So, if some of the electricians on the coast want to try to apply for Code 1 or Code 2 status, that would solve some of the problems. Having said that, it is difficult to get our inspector out there, Mr. Andersen. There is always going to be some difficulty to cover the coast adequately.

MR. ANDERSEN: There is no doubt. One would ask the question: How would one go about getting insurance on a new house, if they go there and the electrical inspection is not done on a house? It is just not going to happen.

Minister, the other thing is: We have very few government services provided by the government, I guess, all along our Coast of Labrador; it is very difficult. As I said, we have six communities; we have a little over 3,000 people. Geographically, in the boundaries of my riding, we could fit the entire Island of Newfoundland and still have enough for two or three Avalon Peninsulas.

A question of concern is: With regard to people getting a driver's licence, the airstrip operators, whom we employ, who keep our airstrips open and clean and so on, they have been able to give the written tests and the driver tests in the communities. Again, maybe it is just a rumour, but I heard that there was talk, that responsibility might be removed.

MS WHALEN: I have not been made aware of it.

MR. ANDERSEN: Could you check? I need it for clarification because, if it is, then someone from Nain would have to pay $600, plus overnight accommodations.

MS WHALEN: I do not think there is going to be any change from the driver examiners in Southern Labrador or Lab West.

MR. ANDERSEN: I have been officially asked by the town councils in my district; so, as soon as you could, if you could get that back to me so I can respond to them. Again, as I said, we have very few services.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. ANDERSEN: Basically, it is also played out of Happy Valley-Goose Bay. Again, as I said, it is with great difficulty - and even times when the electrical inspector has missed his weekly, bi-weekly or monthly trip to the North Coast. There are times when he said: Well, I am going on holidays. There were several times when I had to put my own -

MS WHALEN: I will look into that, Wally, and just see what we are doing with that.

MR. ANDERSEN: Sure. With that, I will turn it back over to my colleague.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen.

Ms Thistle.

MS THISTLE: I would just like to get some of these financial questions out of the way, so I can go into other ones.

If we could now, I just wanted to look at Regional Services, 3.2.02, under 01, Salaries, down $574,000. What positions have been cut to find that savings?

MS WHALEN: The $4,000 you are talking about there is the weigh scales again. Am I mixed up here again?

OFFICIAL: This is the Regional Services.

MS WHALEN: Oh, the Regional Services.

MS THISTLE: Yes, the Regional Services.

MS WHALEN: That is the twenty-seven layoffs.

MR. RIDGLEY: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Is your light on? Okay, go ahead Mr. Ridgley.

MR. RIDGLEY: There was no light on and nobody home at that time.

Just for the sake of the Hansard people who are doing the transcribing on this, sometimes when a question is being asked and says the estimated amount is up this much or down this much, there hasn't been a consistency in terms of relating to revised or budget. In this case here, the question says it is up - I forget - $500,000 or something, but the previous question was in reference to the original budget figure, and the one before that was in reference to the revised figure. Just in terms of the consistency, it might make better sense, for the Hansard people, to say it is up or down in relation to revised or budget.

CHAIR: (Inaudible), as I say, to each his own in regard to questions asked. Thank you for trying to clarify that.

MS WHALEN: The answer for that one: That is the ten positions that were there: the information officer; a marine vessel inspector, a customer service rep, a Clerk III, a W.P.E.O. I, a technical inspector, a W.P.E.O. I, and a clerk typist. Those are the people who were laid off. That is where these savings are.

MS THISTLE: What services do they deliver?

MS WHALEN: You go ahead, Bill, and explain that.

MR. MACKENZIE: The Information Officer is dealing with public information, if they call up with queries, complaints and so on, wondering what sort of permits, licences and so on might be required. Marine Vessel Inspectors inspect vessels under the -

MS THISTLE: (Inaudible).

MR. MACKENZIE: Do you know that program?

Customer Service Reps are the front counter people at the Government Service Centres, so they are the clerks you see when you go up to a counter; a Clerk III, that individual worked in the Registry at the Government Service Centre in Mews Place; there were two Word Processing Equipment Operators -

MS THISTLE: What was that?

MR. MACKENZIE: Word Processing Equipment Operators; a Clerk-Typist III, and one Technical Inspector. The Technical Inspector administered various elements under the Urban and Rural Planning Act to protected roads only, highway sign regulations, and those sorts of matters. That was from the West Coast, the Corner Brook office.

MS THISTLE: A Technical Inspector -

MR. MACKENZIE: A Technical Inspector I, it is termed.

MS THISTLE: In those categories, can you tell me how many people are -

MR. MACKENZIE: There were two Marine Vessel Inspectors, and one of each of the others.

MS THISTLE: Okay, for a total of eight individuals.

Can you give me the location of those jobs?

MR. MACKENZIE: We had about six in St. John's.

MS THISTLE: Which ones?

MR. MACKENZIE: The Information Officer is in St. John's; Customer Service Rep; Clerk III; a Marine Vessels Inspector -

MS THISTLE: The Customer Service Rep, is that in St. John's?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Just one of those?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MS THISTLE: A Marine Vessel Inspector?

MR. MACKENZIE: A Marine Vessel Inspector, St. John's; a Program Co-ordinator and a WPEO.

MS THISTLE: They are all in St. John's, are they?

MR. MACKENZIE: That was six, was it?

We had a Marine Vessel Inspector in -

MS WHALEN: Some outside in rural as well, (inaudible).

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, there are.

MS THISTLE: What is that?

MS WHALEN: There are some outside of St. John's too.

OFFICIAL: One Marine Vessel Inspector in Corner Brook.

MS THISTLE: In Corner Brook. So, the only job lost outside of St. John's was the Marine Vessel Inspector in Corner Brook; is that correct?

MR. MACKENZIE: No, there were also others. In Regional Services there was one other. There are two sides to the Government Service Centre, so some were also in Support Services, but in Regional Services there was a Clerk in Stephenville - I am sorry, a WPEO in Stephenville, a WPEO in Gander, and the Technical Inspector, I think I mentioned, did I, in Corner Brook?

MS THISTLE: Yes.

Okay, so you have savings there of $574,000.

Under the same heading 3.2.02.03., Transportation and Communications, the original budget was $646,000 and $709,000 was used; we are now up to $716,000. What are you anticipating this year in the way of expenditures that would indicate that increase?

MS WHALEN: Well, the transportation and communications costs are up due to the redistribution of positions from the support service to the regional operations.

MS THISTLE: You are going to have less people working but they are going to have to travel more. Is that what you are saying?

MR. MACKENZIE: Last year we divested of one manager and shifted his staff from support services to regional operations. In the budget decisions this year another manager left us, so the staff who worked for those two managers under support services have all been transferred to regional operations. This would include transportation and communication costs to cover their costs when they are transferred.

MS THISTLE: To get them located within regional services, is it?

MR. MACKENZIE: Well, for their work.. These were monies that would have been in support services and would have been transferred to regional services.

MS THISTLE: Also, I notice that your provincial revenue would be up in that category also, 3.2.02.02. Is that from your fee increases?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is fee increases.

MS THISTLE: What fees would constitute that increase?

MS WHALEN: Electrical fees, and also food premises fees fall under this category as well. That is where most fees will come from.

MS THISTLE: Electrical and food premises permits?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: We will move on to the Queen's Printer, 3.3.03. Under Salaries, 3.3.03.01, page 47, do you have a new person employed? Salaries are up by about $18,000, when other areas, of course, are seeing layoffs.

MS WHALEN: It is the same as the year before, isn't it, $77,000?

OFFICIAL: There were vacancies last year.

MS WHALEN: There were vacancies last year, but it is still the same.

OFFICIAL: The estimate this year is the same as -

MS WHALEN: Last year.

OFFICIAL: Right.

MS THISTLE: The original budget was $77,000 and there was only $59,000 used up, and you are predicting a requirement of $78,000.

MS WHALEN: That was a vacancy for part of the year.

MS THISTLE: Are you intending to fill that position?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: What position is that?

MS WHALEN: I have not got the name of who that is right now, I will have to get it for you.

MS THISTLE: Okay. Maybe you can try and get that one. I know that there have been considerable layoffs, but it must be a vital position if you are intending to fill it.

MS WHALEN: In most cases positions that have been filled are necessary. We are a government service and from time to time we are going to have positions that we are going to have to fill, if the need arises for the service.

MS THISTLE: It must be a vital position. That is why I would like to know which one it is.

MS WHALEN: We will get the name for you.

MS THISTLE: You can give me that information later.

MS WHALEN: Yes, sure.

Under the same category, 3.3.03, Purchased Services, 06, last year's budget was $150,000.

What are you planning to do different this year?

MS WHALEN: We only have an estimate. It is not an actual figure; it is just an estimate. We budgeted the same as we did last year; we put it the same for this year.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but you did not use it last year.

MS WHALEN: It varies from year to year, so we may use it this year.

MS THISTLE: Do you know now, at this point, what you will be spending that extra $50,000 on?

MS WHALEN: I would not know right now, what we would need it for. It is only May month.

MS THISTLE: Also, under the same heading, Queen's Printer, provincial revenue, there is a huge increase in that. Where is that coming from? Subhead 3.3.03.02.

It might indicate the opposite. It was budgeted for $325,000 and you only collected $150,000. That means that you did not generate the revenue last year that you anticipated. Is that correct?

MR. MACKENZIE: Essentially, .06 is a lot of the supplies to do the various print jobs. With the budget estimate of $150,000, much of it depends on volume, demand requirements and so on. The demand was down, so $91,000 actually went and, as a result, the revenues are down as well; the same volume of revenues are not coming back. If, indeed, there is approximately $150,000, I guess, based historically on purchases, the corresponding revenue amounts to roughly $325,000. We have repeated last year's budget numbers. We will see whether the actuals come out the same as last year's or the budget is closer this year.

MS THISTLE: Let me see, what else do we have here? Subhead 3.3.04., Printing and Micrographic Services, there is also an increase there under section 01. Salaries of about $95,000. What is happening in that section to warrant that?

MS WHALEN: That is salary decrease due to vacant positions.

MS THISTLE: Vacant positions being filled?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Are these temporary positions or full time?

MS WHALEN: I will have to check for you. I do not know right off the top of my head.

MS THISTLE: Okay, we will leave that for you to check on those.

Of course, you are looking at generating some provincial revenue there as well. Where does all of this revenue come from, the $1.3 million? Can you tell me that?

MS WHALEN: This is print jobs that come from other departments, government departments. It is basically the government's printing.

MS THISTLE: Within government. It doesn't change, I guess, from year to year; it is pretty much standard.

I would like to move into 4.1.02., Occupational Health and Safety Inspections. There has been an increase in Salaries. Can you account for that?

MS WHALEN: An increase?

MS THISTLE: A huge increase in Salaries. Originally, last year, it was budgeted at $2.9 million. Only $2.3 million of that salary was used, and now we are up to almost $3 million today.

MS WHALEN: We were given permission to fill some of the vacant positions this year.

MS THISTLE: Seven hundred thousand dollars worth? Did they come from other divisions within the department? Where did they come from?

MS WHALEN: Reg, would you answer that?

MR. BENNETT: I guess in the last quarter we hired, I think, in total, probably six new officers, which we had to (inaudible). We still a couple of different positions vacant - Officer 3 positions - that we hope to fill this year.

MS THISTLE: How many health inspectors do you have now?

MR. BENNETT: We have four in Wabash, six in Corner Brook, and three in Grand Falls. In total here, we have twenty-something. It is hygiene staff as well as OHS officers

MS THISTLE: How many here?

MR. BENNETT: I think it is somewhere around twenty-six.

MS THISTLE: There were seven new ones hired last year, weren't there?

MS WHALEN: Water quality inspectors.

MS THISTLE: Water quality inspectors.

MS WHALEN: That is a different branch than (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: I notice as well in Transportation and Communications, which is .03., that has gone up as well. It is down from - the original budget was $561,000, but only $373,000 was used, and now we are now up to $414,000.

MS WHALEN: Now that we have extra staff back, we would need that for travel. There would be an increase there.

MS THISTLE: Okay, .05. Professional Services, that is up about $70,000. There was an original budget last year of $210,000 but only $50,000 was used, and now you are up to $121,000. Can you explain that?

MS WHALEN: Reg, can you speak to that one?

MR. BENNETT: I guess the professional services can vary from year to year. We normally budget for extra, hoping we do not have to avail of it. If we do a major investigation, our professional services can increase dramatically on just one simple investigation.

MS THISTLE: What would account for Purchased Services being increased by $251,000? The original budget was $251,000 but there was only $236,000 used last year and you are intending to spend $$487,000 this year.

MS WHALEN: Purchased Services increased due to the requirement to fund a new lease accommodation. Prior to entering into the lease accommodations, the department worked closely with the WST - Works, Services and Transportation - to determine if space could be acquired within a government building; however, to no avail. In addition, this provides no additional cost to the Province since all these costs are recoverable from Occupational Health and Safety.

MS THISTLE: Where are you located, then?

MS WHALEN: We will be in Donovans.

MS THISTLE: Donovans Industrial Park?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Where were you prior to that?

MS WHALEN: On the fourth floor in the West Block.

MS THISTLE: In the West Block? There is no room to put you there now?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: Even with the consolidation of departments, there is no room for you in the West Block on the fourth floor?

MS WHALEN: We have been checking and they have had this building tendered and they are moving out to that location.

MS THISTLE: Even with seventeen departments, before, we had room enough to house everybody, but you do not have it now.

What is going in the space that you were in, on the fourth floor?

MS WHALEN: I do not know right now what we will be putting there. We will have to determine what will be going there. We will send that over to Works, Services and Transportation, and let them determine.

MS THISTLE: Will it still be under the jurisdiction of Government Services? Will you be able to use that space?

MS WHALEN: No, it will be Works and Services who will be determining that.

MS THISTLE: It will be going back to Works and Services?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: That is the end of my financial questions for you.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MS THISTLE: Unless you want to ask a couple of more there, Oliver.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Thistle.

Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: I will just ask Mr. Bennett - you are moving into Donovans Industrial Park with your group, the inspectors - how many of you will be moving into Donovans Industrial Park? How many people will be in that building?

MR. BENNETT: The entire branch.

MR. LANGDON: How many people would that be?

MR. BENNETT: The entire branch, with the exception of our assistant deputy minister. In total it will be, I am guessing, around thirty.

MR. LANGDON: Thirty people.

What is the property that you are going to be moving into, in Donovans Industrial Park?

MS WHALEN: That is the building that was built there; they tendered. It is a new building, actually. The Auditor General is also going to be in that building.

MR. LANGDON: I just want to know the name of the building. Is it on a particular street in Donovans Industrial Park?

MR. BENNETT: It is immediately adjacent to Capital Crane, 15 Glencoe, or -

MR. LANGDON: Okay, I know where that is.

All of the Occupational Health and Safety Inspectors, the thirty of you, the whole branch, apart from the deputy minister, will be in that new building adjacent to the Capital Crane in Donovans Industrial Park?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

Mr. Bennett, the people who are there, the thirty, what area do you cover? Is it the Avalon, or west of that, or where?

MR. BENNETT: It deals with the eastern, primarily, for the inspection services. For the occupational health services, which include economists, industrial hygienist, radiation inspections, it covers the full, entire Province, including Labrador.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Do you have any other questions, Mr. Langdon?

MR. LANGDON: Not on that, no.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen?

MR. ANDERSEN: No, I will pass it over to my colleague here.

CHAIR: No questions down here?

Mr. Ridgley?

MR. RIDGLEY: I just wanted to briefly go back to the buckoes, or the gentlemen, in Port aux Basques, who are at the weigh scales. Maybe one of the Occupational Health and Safety or somebody can - when the weigh scale was down, what would they have been doing? I know they were doing visual inspections, but did they have other responsibilities?

MS WHALEN: There was enough work there for them. There were visual inspections, and they had to check log books and that sort of thing.

MR. RIDGLEY: I guess where I am going is a question from Ms Thistle earlier on, in terms of - say a driver was up playing video lotto all night long - did they have the authority to say: Don't get aboard your truck.

MR. MACKENZIE: There are hours of service regulations under the Highway Traffic Act. They are in the process of being changed nationally because you need consistent regulations across jurisdictions to cover the cross-jurisdictional traffic, but every driver is required to maintain a log book documenting his hours of driving, hours of rest time and so on. We are authorized to check that. It is a standard thing, when they pull into a scale, that we ask to see the log book.

MR. RIDGLEY: Okay, so it is done at the point of scale.

MR. MACKENZIE: That is not to say they cannot forge it at times, but the legal requirement is -

MR. RIDGLEY: The log books could be accurate or not accurate.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that is right.

MR. RIDGLEY: That is a fairly common occurrence, I think, isn't it?

MR. MACKENZIE: It is. It is very hard to police.

MR. RIDGLEY: A guy might not be up playing video lottery but he could be not visible, and say I was sleeping, but actually was off playing poker.

MR. MACKENZIE: That is right.

MR. RIDGLEY: The accuracy of that is very suspect.

Just one other question, in terms of that portable weigh scale - just for my own information - when was that actually put into service?

MS WHALEN: We do not know how many years, Bob, but it has been in for a long time.

MR. RIDGLEY: Okay, so it is not something new.

MS WHALEN: No.

MR. RIDGLEY: I am just wondering, in terms of the $200,000 budget for Port aux Basques versus the $100,000, the portable one would have been used anyway.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. RIDGLEY: So, it is not $100,000 versus $200,000 in a sense.

MS WHALEN: No.

MR. RIDGLEY: Okay

Thank you.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Ridgley.

Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: To Bob's point there, my point was that I understand the importance of the portable weigh scale, but if the difference between operating the portable scales and the permanent scales in Port aux Basques would be $100,000, my point would be to ask the minister and her officials to look at it again, with the fact that, of 40,000 or 60,000 tractor trailers coming into Newfoundland and not being -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. LANGDON: No, no.

The fact is, you have a portable one there now. I guess my point is, Bob, I just want to say - and not to prolong it or whatever - I am sure that with all of these tractor trailers coming into the Province and then they have to go two hours or two-and-a-half hours or whatever to get to Pynn's Brook, a lot of things could happen from the time they come off, from Canso.

The question I didn't ask earlier is: Are the regulations that are in Nova Scotia, in Canso, compatible with what they are in Port aux Basques? Do they allow for things that we do not allow? The fact that if we do not pick up on it, whatever the case might be, it could then be an opportunity for something to happen that none of us would want to happen, but, if it does, then it is like Shakespeare said: The blood in on all of our hands. That is my point.

MS WHALEN: Oliver, all the weights of the truck centres, they are harmonized throughout Atlantic Canada.

MR. LANGDON: They are what?

MS WHALEN: They are all harmonized throughout Atlantic Canada.

MR. LANGDON: Port aux Basques is not my district. If Kelvin Parsons were here, he could talk about it. My only concern about it is safety.

MS WHALEN: I know where you are coming from.

MR. LANGDON: I will probably be using it, and a lot of our families will be using it, whatever the case might be. You know, when you look at a $4 billion budget, and for safety you are looking at $100,000, it is not a lot of money in the overall thing for the safety part of it, and that is all I am concerned about.

MS WHALEN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Ridgley, one final point.

MR. RIDGLEY: In terms of - and I am not sure who brought it up; I believe it was Mr. Andersen - truckers going from Port aux Basques to Corner Brook, who say, take my part of the load, and the guy was already maxed out and said, well, can you take this with me? Is that reasonable, to say that a guy would risk losing his rig and everything else by violating...?

MS WHALEN: I do not think he would do that.

MR. RIDGLEY: Is that a common occurrence? What would the penalties be? Is that a reasonable assumption? I know, just as an analogy, guys who go up hunting will not dare carry a rifle if they do not have a licence because they will lose cabin, truck and all, and that is only a moose. Would that be -

MS WHALEN: I think it would be very infrequent, Bob.

MR. RIDGLEY: I would think so, given the possible consequences. I mean, that is a guy's livelihood.

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is right.

MR. RIDGLEY: Yes.

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen has a point.

MR. LANGDON: Can I have one more point, Wally, and then finish it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: The other thing that concerns me with safety, again - I use the highway, and I am sure that Paul Oram does - every weekend when I go back home, which is practically every weekend, I am driving six and seven hours on the highway. Talking about safety, I am wondering if one of you guys could confirm this for me, that if we - and the Foxtrap weigh scales has already been closed.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: When you look at Goobies and Come-By-Chance, especially summertime and in the fall of the year, fog and inclement weather conditions is pretty much worse there than anywhere else in the Province. Those of us who drive it, we realize it. If there is inclement weather and fog and so on, traffic which is going west do not have to cross over going to the weigh scales. They can just keep on going. So, then you can have a tractor-trailer coming from St. John's that does not have to have a weigh scales until it is in Grand Falls-Windsor.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: You know, that is, again, a lot of traffic. If you drive the highway a lot, and the highway itself, we have a lot of traffic on it. I do not have to tell any of you guys. Fellows like Paul, Jim, Anna and Wally and them, they drive it every weekend.

You get a tractor-trailer - and sometimes they are coming six, seven and eight, one after the other. One time this winter Kim Carter and I were coming in from back of Norris Arm. We had a four-wheel drive, and a tractor-trailer came up behind us, passed us and he just smothered us. We did not know where we were for about a few seconds. We did not know if we were on the highway or not. If you have all of these trucks that can then go from, as I said, St. John's all the way up to Port aux Basques and had not been checked and not been inspected -

MS WHALEN: What would happen on a foggy day is that we would ask them to proceed on into Grand Falls-Windsor.

MR. LANGDON: That is what I am saying. Well, that is my point. From St. John's you go from here - if you drop off your load in Glovertown or you drop it off in Lewisporte -

MS WHALEN: But we would also have our portable scales out as well on the Avalon.

MR. LANGDON: I am just raising it for a matter of safety and we will leave it at that because, I mean, there is not much point in beating a dead horse.

MS WHALEN: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen has a point.

MR. ANDERSEN: The point, too: Would somebody risk it? I guess if they are going to do all Port aux Basques; they are going to do the Codroy Valley, they are going to do Stephenville; they can do the Port au Port Peninsula, and they can do all of Corner Brook before they hit a weigh scales. Ask yourself this question - someone says: Well, I don't think they would risk it. Well, tell that to the foreign draggers that are fishing off the Nose and Tail of the Grand Bank; tell that to the people in our own Province who know that if they are caught behind the wheel over the limit with alcohol, they can lose their driver's licence and they could kill people. Yes, we know today that there are thousands of people a day who go out there and take that risk. I am hearing this from good sources who are saying that there are companies who come across and they end up - and by the time they leave Stephenville they have very little freight left for Corner Brook or some other place. Their buddy is coming behind them and they will - what they call, I think, log (inaudible) and they will take a lot of freight and go on. Will they do it? I believe they will. We will do just one thing, just the same as these impaired drivers who get away with it day in - some of these people - and day out, that they will jeopardize the safety of some of our people. That is my concern.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen.

Ms Thistle.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Fabian.

For the record, I want to say - and I had my earplug in. Mr. Ridgley, when he began to talk about the four valuable public sector workers who are going to lose their jobs in Port aux Basques he referred to them as buckoes.

MS WHALEN: I never picked up on that, sorry.

MS THISTLE: I think that is not called for. It may be a slip of the tongue but, you know, they are valuable people.

MS WHALEN: I do not know, I never heard it.

CHAIR: Mr. Ridgley, if you want an opportunity to -

MR. RIDGLEY: I believe I did correct myself at the time. It is just a word that I use frequently. I believe I corrected myself at the time and said the four gentlemen.

CHAIR: Yes, you did.

He referred to me several times as a bucko also.

MS THISTLE: Well, he can do that, you are his colleague. These are the valuable workers who are going to lose their jobs.

CHAIR: I realize all of that and I understand he has taken care of that.

MS THISTLE: Can I proceed?

CHAIR: You can.

MS THISTLE: This question is to the minister, of course. Are you planning to dismantle the weigh scales at Port aux Basques or are you going to mothball them?

MS WHALEN: We are just going to mothball them right now.

MS THISTLE: Are you planning to hire any students for summer employment?

MS WHALEN: I am still looking into that. I do not know right now. I do not have my budget figures yet ready for that. I would hope that we will hire some.

MS THISTLE: Because you have, in the past?

MS WHALEN: Yes, and I hope we will continue.

MS THISTLE: You don't have any budget money designated for student employment, do you?

MS WHALEN: I will have to look at that, Anna. I am trying to tire some students for the summer. I don't know how many, but I know I will have some hired.

MS THISTLE: Do you have any students from Memorial University or the College of the North Atlantic working throughout Government Services now?

MS WHALEN: Do you mean work term? Is that what you are talking about, work term?

MS THISTLE: Yes, co-operative work term students.

MR. MORRIS: We had a request last week from CONA to take a couple. I don't know -

MS WHALEN: We had them in our Lands Division in Howley Place. We have had students there from CONA, surveyors and that, doing the mapping and that sort of thing. I can check and see.

MS THISTLE: Would that be a paid position?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we used to pay the students when they worked there.

MR. MORRIS: We also get requests for unpaid work term students and we try to accommodate them when we can.

MS WHALEN: Wins tells me we have had some requests for unpaid work terms too.

MS THISTLE: Where would the requests come from for unpaid work terms?

MS WHALEN: From some of the students who want to get their work experience in. They want to be able to graduate and they have to get so many hours in.

MS THISTLE: That comes directly from the students, does it?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. MORRIS: The colleges.

MS WHALEN: The colleges, yes.

MS THISTLE: There is an arrangement in place, or there always was, to finance or find students looking for co-operative work terms.

MS WHALEN: We have had students over time who have been out on work terms that are unpaid work terms, and we have had some paid work terms. The students at the college went out in two categories over there.

MS THISTLE: To the best of my knowledge there was $3 million in that last year to hire co-operative work term students and also those looking for their first job experience.

MS WHALEN: Yes, I know.

MS THISTLE: I can't imagine a student looking for an unpaid work term when there is a paid work term available.

MS WHALEN: They will take the paid work term first, but if they cannot find a paid work term they will look for unpaid as well, because they have to get that work term in, in order to graduate.

MS THISTLE: Oh, yes, I realize that. It is not a shift in policy by the government, is it, not to pay students?

MS WHALEN: No, no shift at all.

MS THISTLE: So, you currently have co-operative work term students working for Government Services who are being paid?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: The rate established between government and Memorial University and the College of the North Atlantic?

MS WHALEN: There is a rate established.

MS THISTLE: There is.

MS WHALEN: I am assuming there is, yes.

MS THISTLE: And they are being paid at that rate.

I was just checking with Winston to make sure that if we have anyone or do not have anyone. He said there are requests in for unpaid.

MS THISTLE: Really?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we have a request in for an unpaid work term.

MS THISTLE: The people that you are laying off, are they a mixture of management and bargaining unit?

MS WHALEN: There are four management and twenty-one union people.

MS THISTLE: Okay.

Management, are you giving them their redundancy or severance pay in the form of a lump sum cheque?

MS WHALEN: Whatever they are entitled to. They have a choice.

MS THISTLE: Their choice is to receive a cheque or work their severance. What is it?

MR. MORRIS: The management employees who have been declared redundant, or their positions have been declared redundant, have an option. They could either take their redundancy in a lump sum or they can take it over a bi-weekly pay period for the balance of their redundancy period and still accumulate pension benefits. No, they are not working in the office but they can collect it that way if they wish. It is their choice.

MS THISTLE: The form of payment is their choice but they can go home and receive that form of payment, correct?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, that's correct.

MS THISTLE: With regard to bargaining unit employees, if they cannot get into any bumping position, or they cannot acquire a position and they have to leave, can they take their severance pay up front or do they have to work that period?

MR. MORRIS: I am not an expert on the collective agreement, I do not know if any of us are, but I know we have to abide by that. Under the collective agreement, as you said, they do have bumping rights within the first thirty days, so they have to avail of that first. If they are not in a position to bump anyone I believe they would take their redundancy in lump sum, but I believe they also have an option, if they have an extended period of time, to take it bi-weekly as well. I am not 100 per cent sure on that but I believe that is the situation, yes.

MS THISTLE: Okay, because I am hearing from people in bargaining units that management - there are two sets of rules. Management are able to do as you described and unionized people do not have the choice of taking a severance cheque in their hand and going home. They are required to work their severance or redundancy period.

MS WHALEN: Anna, they do go by a collective agreement, the union people, and you have to go with what is in that collective agreement, right.

MS THISTLE: That's right, they should be.

MS WHALEN: Yes, but they do practice it. All through government that is practiced. Whatever a collective agreement is, that is what they have to go by. I worked in a union for years. We had a collective agreement and it was laid out. If you were there, like, nine years or ten years, you got your severance for each year you were there.

MS THISTLE: Well, naturally it is a collective agreement. Well, bargaining unit people, but some people have indicated that they have been notified that they must work their -

MS WHALEN: Well, I am not aware of it in my department.

MS THISTLE: You are not aware of it?

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: Well, that is fine. Thank you.

You said in your speech, initially, that you are going to be in the process this year, I guess, of conducting an internal review. Is it the intention of your department, under your direction, to have less public contact and more interaction with the Internet?

MS WHALEN: No, I think we will have both services available; I mean what you want to choose to avail of. If you want to go into a counter service, that is still available. If you want to use the Internet, you can use your Internet, whatever is convenient for you.

MS THISTLE: So, you are looking at choices, but do you now expect to do more consolidation within your own department before the year is out?

MS WHALEN: I have got to look at (inaudible) program renewal. I have to just look at it to see what is what there. I can answer you that question at this stage.

MS THISTLE: I would like to ask you a couple of questions. This one, particularly, interests me because it connects to my district, and that was the fact of the Petroleum Products Pricing Commissioner's Office. You have made your decision, and everybody accepts your decision to a certain degree, but you came out yesterday in your news release and said that: We are integrating the Petroleum Products Pricing Commission with the Public Utilities Board to improve efficiency and reduce the cost charged back to the petroleum industry, and, ultimately, on to the consumer. Would you explain to me how that is really going to happen?

MS WHALEN: Would you mind repeating that for me again?

MS THISTLE: These are your words: We are integrating the Petroleum Products Pricing Commission with the Public Utilities Board to improve efficiency and reduce the cost charged back to the petroleum industry and, ultimately, on to the consumer. Can you tell me how you are going to do that?

MS WHALEN: The PUB is going to do the regulation right now and we are going to keep the office out in Grand Falls and the staff who are there. It is going to be coordinated with the PUB. There is not going to be any change. It is just the ideal fit for it, to be under the PUB. We do the Hydro rates and insurance rates there, and we are putting it at arm's-length, as independent.

As you know, there was a perception out there that it was political, and even Mr. Saunders - who did a fine job, I might add, over the three years - said the same thing, that it was a political appointment. I did not make my decision on that. I made my decision on a fit. It would be better underneath the PUB and the regulatory would go under them. They have the expertise there and they also have the experience. There were savings to be had there, approximately $110,000.

MS THISTLE: How are you going to improve efficiency by giving it to the PUB?

MS WHALEN: Because they are already a regular identity now, an agency now. They are an independent agency which does that type of work, and they are going to retain the staff that we have already trained out in Grand Falls.

MS THISTLE: Improve the efficiency for whom? You are already telling Mr. Saunders and his staff they are doing a great job. You are pleased with the efforts they have put forward. The gas prices are stabilized, which was the aim of the commission. So, what kind of efficiency are you going to improve?

MS WHALEN: Well, I think it is duplication. With the PUB and the commission, it is really a duplication because the PUB is a regulatory body and the PPPC is also a regulatory. It would be a better fit under the PUB, in my opinion.

MS THISTLE: You say you are going to reduce the cost charged back to the petroleum industry?

MS WHALEN: Yes, because they do - the cost of that commission is recoverable from industry and will be some assessment reductions for industry right now.

MS THISTLE: You are more concerned with the oil companies, are you, than the consumer?

MS WHALEN: No, I am concerned with keeping the prices stable.

MS THISTLE: And you think this is going to do it?

MS WHALEN: It has done it for three years.

MS THISTLE: Yes, by keeping it separate and price efficient.

MS WHALEN: It will get full attention in PUB as well, as it got under the present commission.

MS THISTLE: You go on to say: And ultimately the savings are going to be passed along to the consumer. Do you really, seriously believe that by charging the oil companies less to maintain this service they are going to pass on those savings to the consumer?

MS WHALEN: I guess we factor everything into our cost to do business, don't we? If you are running a business and you are providing a service, you factor everything in. If it costs more for you to provide that service then you have to pass it on your consumer.

MS THISTLE: It is not a cost to government.

MS WHALEN: No, it is fully recoverable from industry.

MS THISTLE: That is right.

Now, you talked about political, and Mr. Saunders has come out and said he agrees that it was a political appointment, but nobody can dispute that he did a good job.

MS WHALEN: I have said to Mr. Saunders that he has gone a great job.

MS THISTLE: You did so. You said so yourself.

You have the authority within your own department that you are able to appoint whoever you wish.

MS WHALEN: Yes, I know that, but I wanted to go to an independent agency. That is where I felt I would be better off.

MS THISTLE: Why would you not continue the operation as it had been?

MS WHALEN: Because I think it is a better fit with PUB.

MS THISTLE: That is your opinion, is it?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Have you done any research to confirm that?

MS WHALEN: I have made my decision on talking to officials and looking at where it would be better structured right now, and my decision is with the PUB.

MS THISTLE: What do you see for the long term prospects for that office in Grand Falls-Windsor?

MS WHALEN: To do the job it is supposed to be doing, stabilizing our prices.

MS THISTLE: How will the PUB Commissioner, who is only temporary, oversee this until you actually go and change the legislation, which will probably be next fall, where they can have complete control over that particular commission? Are you going to have Mr. Noseworthy oversee the operation in Grand Falls-Windsor?

MS WHALEN: We are looking at putting a director in Grand Falls.

MS THISTLE: A director?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Would that be on a full-time basis?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that will be on a full-time basis.

MS THISTLE: And the supervision would come from Mr. Noseworthy at the PUB?

MS WHALEN: Yes, and a director.

MS THISTLE: A director.

I know your Premier has committed to maintaining the office in Grand Falls-Windsor, you yourself have said the same. What we are hearing now is, as a temporary measure Mr. Noseworthy will oversee the operation until you appoint a director, is it?

MS WHALEN: Yes, he is going to be the commissioner for the interim, until the legislation comes down.

MS THISTLE: That is right. In the meantime, there will have to be someone there and that someone will be a director, is that correct?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we will be looking at that. We will determine who is going to get the job there.

OFFICIAL: The PUB will decide.

MS WHALEN: Yes, the Pub is going to decide, I know.

MS THISTLE: How soon do you expect that particular director to move to Grand Falls-Windsor?

MS WHALEN: I do not know if there is going to be a director moving to Grand Falls, I cannot tell you that. I am getting Mr. Noseworthy to assess the situation there now, and the employees that are there. I guess he will come back with some recommendations for me.

MS THISTLE: Because you just told me that you are going to put a director in that position.

MS WHALEN: Yes, there will be a person there in a director's position.

MS THISTLE: At what point?

MS WHALEN: When will we do that?

MS THISTLE: Yes.

MS WHALEN: Well I will have to consult with Mr. Noseworthy. He is actually going to be making a visit in the very near future to Grand Falls to talk to the employees who are already there.

MS THISTLE: He is going to visit the operation in Grand Falls-Windsor, and he is going to come back and make a recommendation to yourself?

MS WHALEN: Yes, he will talk to me about what he sees there when he gets there. He has to go out and talk to the staff, Anna, and then we are going to look at having a director in Grand Falls.

MS THISTLE: You have made a decision to have a director there and you would want him to look at -

MS WHALEN: I would like a director in Grand Falls, yes.

MS THISTLE: You are hoping to do that in the near future?

MS WHALEN: In the near future, yes.

MS THISTLE: That particular director, then, will be under the supervision or direction of the PUB Chairman?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Is that the plan?

MS WHALEN: That is the structure, yes.

MS THISTLE: That is good information that we know that.

I want to ask you a couple of questions on fees now, if I could.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: We are getting a lot of e-mails, as you would expect, from all over the Province and I want to know, for road test reassessments, are these people who would not have passed the road test originally and are being reassessed, or would they be people with medical problems for reassessments? What would be the makeup of that?

MS WHALEN: That is the medical reassessments.

MS THISTLE: How much money do you collect from that category in the run of a year?

MS WHALEN: We did 183 last year. It would be very small.

MS THISTLE: One hundred and eighty-three medical reassessments?

MS WHALEN: Yes, medical assessments.

MS THISTLE: You were doing this for free in the past, were you?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Now you are going to charge $100, so you are looking at collecting $100 a person; $18,300 based on last year. Of course, our aging population is growing, so there will be more for you to reassess this year.

MS WHALEN: I don't know. It depended on their health really, not their age.

MS THISTLE: The majority of these people would be seniors. I suppose there could be disabled persons, younger disabled persons.

MS WHALEN: Sure.

MS THISTLE: But the majority of these people would be seniors, so you are going to collect about $20,000 from these people.

Also, I would like to check on vital statistics. You are raising your standard fee, well some of them, from $0.00 to $20.00. I think you are going to go with a general fee of $25.00, is it, for all certificates?

MS WHALEN: Pardon?

MS THISTLE: You are going to go now with a general certificate fee, is it, of $25.00?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: How about people who need original copies of death certificates and you have to produce more than one? Will you charge them for each death certificate?

MS WHALEN: Well, we have a group of people who do research and they have requests sometimes for up to fifty certificates at a time.

MS THISTLE: Will you be charging for each one?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: I know for insurance purposes and settling estates most people will want the original death certificate. In that particular case, for people who want multiple certificates, you will be charging on an individual basis, will you?

MS WHALEN: Yes. We are actually the only province that did not have that kind of fee in place.

MS THISTLE: Of course, everybody knows about the increase in the registration fee.

I want to ask you a little bit about insurance, that you are hoping to lay on the Table tomorrow. Can consumers in this Province expect to receive their 15 per cent decrease in insurance rates like your Blue Book indicated?

MS WHALEN: We are going to be having that on for discussion and there will be lots of time to debate that during the legislation in the House. Basically everything will be in the legislation when it comes out.

MS THISTLE: So, you would prefer to leave that till the -

MS WHALEN: Yes, until we can debate it. We are serving notice tomorrow, so we will have it very soon.

MS THISTLE: When you started your speech tonight, you talked about how there was a growth agenda that your government was going to promote. Can you tell us what would be the plan for your growth agenda?

MS WHALEN: We are going to be involved in all kinds of business here in the Province and outside the Province. We have a new Business Department set up and the Premier is leading that, so he is going to be growing the agenda along with his colleagues and his Cabinet. We will all take part in it.

MS THISTLE: Do you expect that Business Department to be located in the Confederation Building?

MS WHALEN: You will have to ask the Premier, he is the lead minister for that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Yes. Well, we had hoped to get that information, as you know, and we were very accommodating but it did not happen.

Regarding Occupational Health and Safety with food establishments, during the strike I imagine a lot of that got behind, got waylaid. Are you now in a position to say, with our tourism season fast approaching, that you feel all restaurants and food establishments in this Province have been inspected and are safe?

MS WHALEN: That is under Occupational Health and Safety. That is under Bill's department. Bill, if you want to answer what we are doing with that.

MS THISTLE: It is under Bill's department, is it?

MS WHALEN: Yes it is.

MS THISTLE: Okay, it is Bill.

MR. MACKENZIE: These are the environmental health officers. We still have a bit of a backlog. A full month is a significant backlog. There are 4,400 licenced establishments, so there are a few hundred each month to be done. We still have some backlog. Whether we will be caught up for the full tourism season, I certainly hope so.

MS THISTLE: With your food establishments, the inspection itself, is it on a rotation basis or is it random checks? How frequent are the checks?

MR. MACKENZIE: There is a risk assessment done of each establishment based on a number of factors, so small retail operation would only get inspected once every two years, like a corner store. A high risk facility with a lot of meals, like a hotel and so on, would be quarterly, three or four times a year. Then there is a medium risk category once a year.

MS THISTLE: Your department is not responsible for licensing of charitable organizations that want to do turkey teas and things like that, are they?

MS WHALEN: There is no license requirement for turkey teas.

MS THISTLE: No. Okay then, but it is not your department that has control.

MS WHALEN: No.

MS THISTLE: Is it the Department of Health?

MS WHALEN: The Department of Health - that would come under (inaudible), wouldn't it?

MS THISTLE: Or is it shared responsibility?

MS WHALEN: The turkey teas do not come under any regulation, Anna.

MS THISTLE: I know, but the Minister of Health, I think, stood in this House since the session began and said she was going to do some consultation with various organizations and charities, get their perspective on it, and come back and make some type of ruling.

MS WHALEN: I guess you will have to wait until she comes back. I cannot answer for any of the others.

MS THISTLE: What part does your department play in the overall operation of food being served by organizations?

MS WHALEN: We hire the inspectors on behalf of the Department of Health. Our department has the inspectors there for Health.

MS THISTLE: Do you do the inspections, for instance, when you have these festivals and so on that operate in almost every community in the Province?

MS WHALEN: We go out and inspect.

MS THISTLE: Do you do inspections for those?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: What requirement would there be for a food vendor who is going to sell hot dogs at a festival?

MS WHALEN: They are licensed, so there are inspection procedures they have to follow to get their license on that.

MS THISTLE: Do any of your inspection officers go around during the summer and do random checks on these vendors?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we do some during the summer.

MS THISTLE: Do you do any inspections with regard to washroom facilities, cleanliness and things like that, or is it just food?

MS WHALEN: That is one of the areas they look at when they are doing the licensing inspection, the washrooms.

MS THISTLE: You look at the premises in general?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS THISTLE: It is good to know that because there are several around that need looking at.

MS WHALEN: Pass them along, Anna, and I will send out the inspectors.

MS THISTLE: Anyway, there are many questions - you have contributed a lot of information here tonight.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MS THISTLE: I understand that you are a new minister and Government Services is very wide-ranging.

MS WHALEN: It is.

MS THISTLE: Very wide-ranging! To have a complete handle on your department is difficult at this stage than months later.

I thank you for giving me the information that I asked for. What I have requested. I would appreciate in writing, if I can get that by the end of May. I am finished with questioning and I want to particularly thank the minister and her officials. Many of them I have worked with in the past, and I thank you for your help here tonight.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Thistle.

Any more questions, Mr. Andersen?

MR. ANDERSEN: Just one question, Minister, with the PUB.

In the past companies have shown great profits. They have gone for increases in hydro rates and other things. Many times it has gone before the PUB, and even though the records show that companies have shown a great profit for the past year, the PUB has granted an increase. My concern, Minister, is this: I hope that you have the confidence in the PUB that we will be able to control the oil prices and, most important of all, control the oil companies, because in the past they have ruled many times. I would hate to see a ruling made by the PUB where oil companies are shown to make a million dollars worth of profits to come back here and approve the increases that they are looking for.

CHAIR: Are there any more questions, Mr. Langdon?

MR. LANGDON: Jim has a question.

MR. J. HODDER: I just have a quick district question, more or less, and it reverts back to weigh scales. In rural areas, for instance, a number of occurrences sometimes take place as far as traffic over the local roads. We had a situation in Port au Port back a few years ago where a drilling rig came in from the Mainland and went over a second class road sort of thing, and there was obvious wear and tear on the road.

I just had a case where a company was bringing armour stone from a quarry in Aguathuna near Port au Port West and bringing it in through the Kippens Road. I was just wondering, when a company is applying for a permit to haul heavy stone and things like that, is there any requirement to contact your department to let them know that the road is being used by - even in this case, what is happening out there now and as we speak, a company is about to finish, but they have been. I did not call the highway department. Are you informed of this, because these things take place quite often?

MR. MACKENZIE: It would depend on the circumstances. This drill rig coming in probably required a special permit. It would not be an ordinary load. It would be over length and might have been overweight. You do have to apply for a special permit. We review it based on safety matters and Transportation and Works review it by the bridge engineer and our highway engineers based on the weight, to see if it is going to damage the road. But, with hauling stone, if that is within a recognized truck, dump truck, recognized weights, recognized dimensions, there is no requirement to inform us. It is deemed to be that size of truck can carry this weight, which is legal limit, so there is no obligation to inform us.

MR. J. HODDER: Are there requirements depending on the class of road? For instance, if a certain truck, at a certain distance, these requirements are according to the class of road or just general across the Province?

MR. MACKENZIE: I think they are just general. A special permit, which is analyzed for each load, that may well factor in the type of road. If you have a legal commercial vehicle hauling stone, you are legal on the highway and legal on the secondary road.

MR. J. HODDER: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Hodder.

Mr. Oram.

MR. ORAM: Just a comment more than anything. Thank you for the report.

I just want to say, when your department looks at things, for instance, weigh scales, inspectors and things like that, I think - and I am not saying you do not do this - we need to be cognizant of the fact that safety is the most important thing. Even though I know we are in a tight time now when it comes to budgets, funds, and so on and so forth, I think we really need to be careful with the safety, and sometimes we need to spend a little bit extra just to ensure that the public are safe. That is all I would say to you tonight.

Thank you.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you Mr. Oram.

Mr. Ridgley?

MR. RIDGLEY: No, Sir. Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Ridgley.

Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: I just want to say thanks to the minister and the officials, too, for being here and upfront. Like I said - as Paul, I want to heckle his comments, the fact about safety. I think it is a priority for all of us and it is wise, I think, too, that when we make decisions which will affect the whole population that a few dollars extra in the large scheme of things is worth it if you are going to protect the safety of people who live in the Province. In this case we are talking about practically everyone of us.

Again, thanks for being here.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Langdon.

One final comment from Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, too, minister. Certainly, I extend an invitation to you on behalf of all the people in Labrador to make a trip to Labrador. Certainly, I think for the services that some departments provide, that you really need to make two trips. One in the summertime when everything is so beautiful and gorgeous and one in the vast ruggedness of winter because, you know, the circumstances dictate as to how people perform their duties and their responsibilities. So, certainly, two trips to see the big land, the invitation is there.

MS WHALEN: Thank you, but I have been in Labrador on two occasions and I will return back to Labrador again to visit.

I want to thank the Estimates Committee tonight. It is my first committee as a minister and I tell you that it was enjoyable.

Thank you very much for the early hour.

CHAIR: Thank you all.

I will pass it over to the Clerk now to call the heads.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to and including 4.2.02.

CHAIR: Shall the subheads carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02 carried.

CLERK: And the total for the department.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

On motion, total carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the heads of the Department of Government Services carried without amendment?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded? Carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services, total heads, carried.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Just as a note, I guess, we are expanding on our meeting with Transportation and Works this morning, for those who were not here, and we will get back to you next week with a time.

On motion, Committee adjourned.