On motion of Mr. Sweeney, seconded by Mr. Forsey, Mr. Skinner was elected Chairman.

CHAIR (SKINNER): Welcome, everybody.

This morning we have the Transportation and Works Department staff and the minister here with us.

As members of the Government Services Committee, what we will do is, I will ask members to introduce themselves first. The plan will be to allow about ten minutes or so for questions to be asked, and we will alternate back and forth with that. If anyone needs a few extra minutes just to finish up, that is no problem, but we will judge it to be about ten minutes if possible.

I will ask, if you would, for members to start off by introducing themselves. Mr. Sweeney, we will start with you.

MR. SWEENEY: George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. ORAM: Paul Oram, MHA for Terra Nova.

MR. FORSEY: Clayton Forsey, MHA for Exploits.

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, MHA for Gander.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands, and critic for Transportation and Works.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister, would you like to introduce yourself and your staff, please?

MR. TAYLOR: Trevor Taylor, Minister.

MR. SMART: Bob Smart, Deputy Minister.

MR. GOSSE: Gary Gosse, Directory of Highway Design and Construction.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, ADM, Works.

MR. SALTER: Dave Salter, Director of Communications.

MR. HEALEY: Keith Healey, ADM of Strategic and Corporate Services.

MR. ANTLE: Kevin Antle, Director of Financial Operations.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Mr. Sweeney, will you be starting?

MR. SWEENEY: No, (inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce?

MR. JOYCE: Usually the minister would want to -

CHAIR: I am sorry, yes.

MR. JOYCE: What we usually do is to have the minister have a few words. It is out of protocol.

CHAIR: Okay.

We have a little procedural thing we have to do first.

CLERK: We start off with 1.1.01., usually.

CHAIR: We will call the heading 1.1.01. and then I will turn it over to the minister for opening remarks.

MR. TAYLOR: Good morning.

I am not going to have very extensive remarks, just to say, I guess, that the departmental budget this year has seen some substantial increases, as most people would know. With the increase in the roads budget this year, our capital works budget for the provincial roads program, the Labrador transportation initiatives that we have announced, and the cost-shared money on the Trans-Canada Highway, I guess, our total roads budget is projected this year to be approximately $143 million.

On the vessel front, we have committed approximately $9 million for vessel refits and maintenance; approximately $6 million, I guess it is, for docks and wharves maintenance. We have $1.5 million committed for design work for two new vessels for the Island runs, and we have entered into the beginnings of a Labrador Transportation Strategy where we have committed approximately $350,000 for the work of the Minister's Advisory Committee on Labrador Transportation. Of course, that committee will primarily deal with the three reports that we have recently released on the Southeast Coast airport, the marine vessel configuration post-2009, after the Trans-Labrador Highway is completed, and the fare rate structure for freight, in particular, on the Coast of Labrador.

We have also increased our budget this year for new vehicle acquisitions, heavy equipment acquisitions, up from $3.5 million two years ago to $6.5 million last year to $10 million this year. That should help us deal with some of the deterioration that we have seen in the heavy equipment fleet of the department over the past number of years. It would be our aim to try and maintain that level of funding in the coming years, and try and get the vast majority of our equipment, especially on the plow truck side, flyers, below the age of ten years.

We have also increased our budget to deal with the deferred maintenance issues that we have in many of our public buildings. Obviously, it is a small increase compared to what is required to get our buildings back in appropriate shape, but it is a start and a move down that road, with the commitment that we have made over the coming six years. Government has committed in excess of $2 billion. Approximately $2.3 billion is what we expect to spend between various departments, with us being the lead department, on the infrastructure side, and $300 million of that is in this year's budget.

I think that sort of gives a little bit of a synopsis of where we are this year, the highlights and the main changes that you would see in our budget. I think I will leave it at that, and open the floor for questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister, and I thank the Committee for allowing me to ask the questions here.

I will just get into some generic questions before I go through the budget. After I get through the generic questions, I will go through some highlights in the budget. I know it is going to take time, because they are all over the place; they are not just on one thing.

I was asked to try to get the information on the Long Island ferry. Does the department have a total cost of what it is to operate the Long Island ferry in that area, a one-year total cost?

MR. TAYLOR: Approximately $700,000 a year.

MR. JOYCE: Does that include any federal government money put in there, say, for ice breaking or anything, or is that just from the department itself?

MR. TAYLOR: That is our cost.

MR. JOYCE: That is your cost.

Do you know what it costs, if there is any federal contribution put in there?

MR. TAYLOR: On Long Island, unlike Fogo Island, for example, the Long Island ferry service rarely avails of icebreaker services; put it that way.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask - and I mentioned it to you, Minister, and I just want to bring it up publicly - out in Bay of Islands, the McIvers Road, has there been an evaluation done on that? Because I know the money for Bay of Islands has not been announced yet, if any, because there has been none put in there since 2003. This particular area, I know last year I had a public dispute with the former minister and it was done, in my opinion - I said it then and I will say it again - in a manner just to try to keep me quiet, and the people quiet, but the road itself is dangerous again. I mentioned it, and I wrote your department. Has there been any evaluation done on that road? Because it is tipping again and it is extremely dangerous, I can assure you.

MR. TAYLOR: As you know, the budget decisions on roads work throughout the Province is unfolding and we should finalize our roads budget throughout the Province by the end of April. All announcements on road work will, in all likelihood, be made by then.

As for the situation in the Bay of Islands - and you have made me aware of this before - the department is looking at that situation right now and we will finalize our decisions on the Bay of Island's work in the next couple of weeks, I would think.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I can assure you, Minister, it is a safety concern; it is not something that is a luxury. It is extremely dangerous - I said it last year - and I can tell you now that the road has probably dropped about a foot to a foot-and-a-half again. It is going to continue to drop until the proper work is done. With the heavy trucks, with the fish plant out there, and the fish being transported back and forth, if a driver coming over forgets that it is there and the load shifts, I can assure you there is a potential there for a lot of danger.

Another thing that was announced last year that was a bit in my craw, actually - it was done by the former minister, and I am sure the officials would be aware of it - is the $400,000 for Massey Drive. Why was that approved to develop a new road for a town?

MR. TAYLOR: First of all, it is not a town road; it is a provincial road.

MR. JOYCE: No, there is no road. There is actually no road.

MR. TAYLOR: No, I know.

You are talking about the off-ramp, basically, eastbound from the Trans-Canada Highway, the off-ramp into Massey Drive. I assume that is what you are talking about.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. There is no road there.

My question to the department, and it was made public by the mayor, is that this road will be turned over to open up development in Massey Drive.

MR. TAYLOR: That is not unlike the Lewin Parkway, when it was built, not unlike the Crosstown Arterial, the Outer Ring Road.

From time to time governments have made decisions over the years to develop roads to relieve congestion. The East-West Arterial across St. John's, when it is built, will be built partially with provincial funds, partially with federal funds, and partially with municipal funds. The Conception Bay South Bypass, the Conception Bay North Bypass, all of those roads have been built primarily with provincial funds and have been built, on the one hand, to relieve congestion on the existing road and, on the other hand, to facilitate development in these areas. I do not see where there is a difference between the Massey Drive road and the Conception Bay North Bypass, for example.

MR. JOYCE: I do not think there is as much congestion on Massey Drive as -

MR. TAYLOR: I said two reasons, right? One is to assist in opening up development, and the other one is to -

MR. JOYCE: My question, I guess, to the former minister - I know that this decision was not made by you - here you have roads that are safety concerns and here you have money, $400,000, given to a town which is openly admitting that it is just to open up more lots for us, more building lots, so we will get it done cheaper. Is that the mandate of the department? This was openly said in public by the mayor, in the local media, when asked why it was done. He said we needed lot developments opened and it is a chance for our town to expand. It has nothing to do with congestion. It has nothing to do with overcrowding of roads back and forth.

MR. TAYLOR: First of all, I cannot speak for the Mayor of Massey Drive but, as I understand it, it is not only Massey Drive; a fair amount of the property in that area is within the boundary of the City of Corner Brook, if I am not mistaken.

MR. JOYCE: No.

MR. TAYLOR: I beg to differ. It is not the understanding I had, in talking to the Mayor of Corner Brook, when he brought it up to me here in this place when the Throne Speech was read. It does open up area for them also.

MR. JOYCE: Actually, Massey Drive -

MR. TAYLOR: I don't see what the issue is, personally. I guess what you are suggesting is that we should not build the East-West Arterial and that we should not build the Torbay Bypass Road.

MR. JOYCE: No, I am suggesting to put the money -

MR. TAYLOR: Well, they are one and the same. They are the same type of roads. They are access roads. They relieve congestion. They open up areas for development. They provide, in the case of the Massey Drive road, another access into and out of Massey Drive. If, for example, something untoward happened on the hill in Massey Drive, there is no way out of it, whereas the development now -

MR. JOYCE: The emergency exit was already built. This is an extension to the emergency exit. It has nothing to do with the emergency exit. It is an extension to it. I know you did not make the decision. I know it was awhile back and I do not know if you had the details.

My other question is - and I know what the department recommended on it from the Deer Lake area. It was very low on the recommendations, extremely low. Does the department usually go on the recommendations from the regional office, or is that just a part of their consideration?

MR. TAYLOR: I suspect it is something like when you fellows were in government and the departmental recommendation in the region has some bearing on roadwork that is done, as well as the input from the local area and MHAs in areas and what have you. There is a variety of factors that determine what roads get done and what bridges get done and what have you.

MR. JOYCE: Bay of Islands - did you say all the announcements will be done mostly by the end of April? I know the Bay of Islands, again in 2003 and 2004, there was no money, and this year alone. I guess I am trying to find out: When will the area know if there is any money being allotted this year in Transportation and Works for -

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, by the end of April. Maybe before that, but certainly by the end of April our objective is to have all announcements made. To the extent that we can, we would like to be entered into contracts on most of these things by early in May.

MR. JOYCE: Who is the director for ferries in the Province now? There was a guy who was overseeing the ferry operations for the Province. I don't think he is there now, is he?

MR. TAYLOR: Why do you ask? Tom Prim is our director of ferry operations.

MR. JOYCE: Tom Prim, okay.

I was just asked to ask, because I didn't know if there was an actual director of the operations.

MR. TAYLOR: Okay, yes.

MR. JOYCE: It is Tom Prim, okay.

You mentioned, Minister, in the Budget, the ferries, $1.2 million or $1.5 million for the design of the ferries in the Province. Can you elaborate on that - for the two ferries, I think?

MR. TAYLOR: That is for the design of two ferries, yes.

Elaborate on it? Well, there is not much to elaborate on, I guess. The bottom line is, it is to design two vessels essentially for the Northeast Coast runs, for two of the Northeast Coast runs, and what two they will be will be determined in the very near future, I guess.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any commitment to build the ferries in the Province yet?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, I would not expect that we would spend $1.5 million to design. We have said we are going to build ferries, and I said just last week when the Budget Speech was read, in an interview, that our objective is to have the design work done over the next six to eight months, and very quickly after that to move to start the building of these two vessels.

MR. JOYCE: So, there is a commitment -

MR. TAYLOR: With a view within two years to have two new vessels.

MR. JOYCE: So there is a commitment to build them in the Province?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

That was the commitment that was in the Blue Book.

MR. JOYCE: We know about the Blue Book.

There was a $350,000 or $375,000, I think, outside-the-Province study done on the ferries in the Province. Was that study ever completed?

MR. TAYLOR: Pardon?

MR. JOYCE: There was a $250,000 or $350,000 study done on the ferry conditions in the Province.

MR. TAYLOR: Are you talking about the one that we just completed?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, or you got someone to complete - an outside -

MR. TAYLOR: BMT Fleet Technology. I assume you are talking about the study that was announced back in August, I guess it was.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: That is completed.

MR. JOYCE: Is that made public yet?

MR. TAYLOR: No, we only received it last week.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: It will be made public in fairly short order.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Highways depots. You know the major issue I find with the highways depots. How much will the department save by closing down those thirteen depots? What is the cost savings for the departments themselves?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, we do not save anything, first of all. I think that is a fallacy that some people continue to promote. We take $1.5 million that would otherwise have been spent on salaries and we spend it on supplies for the road maintenance program.

MR. JOYCE: So, it is $1.5 million on salaries that you save?

MR. TAYLOR: A million-and-a-half dollars on salaries -

MR. JOYCE: That you reinvest.

MR. TAYLOR: - that we re-profile, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Will those thirteen depots still remain closed?

MR. TAYLOR: As it stands now, yes.

MR. JOYCE: From what period?

MR. TAYLOR: Pardon?

MR. JOYCE: From what time frames?

MR. TAYLOR: From approximately the beginning of May - approximately - some may be a little before that, some may be a little after, but approximately the beginning of May until the beginning of November.

MR. JOYCE: Do you think - I know we had this discussion in the House - November is a bit too late to get the equipment up and running? We know what happened last year, and some of the issues that were raised last year, some issues raised by the union. We saw some of the potential hazards in November, with snow and some ice conditions. This is a serious question, because I know the concerns that were brought to my attention, that there was snow and ice in November last year and the equipment was not up and running.

MR. TAYLOR: First of all, like I said to you back in November or December, or whenever it was, the summer closure of thirteen depots did not result in any of the people who work in the heavy equipment maintenance being laid off. There were the same number of positions, the same number of people available to do maintenance on heavy equipment last year as there was the year before. There was no change in mechanics. Inasmuch as there was an issue around the mechanical staff that we have, it is related to a difficulty in recruiting mechanics. We had that problem in one location on the Northern Peninsula and one location on the Burin Peninsula last year, at the very least. That is related to a shortage of heavy equipment mechanics in the Province, and the difficulty recruiting associated with that.

The only thing that I can say to you on that, on the thirteen depots, is, we are going to be monitoring our program this summer. Last year we did not have a full year. Last year there were a bunch of issues surrounding the closure. It was late being implemented and there were problems associated with it from excessive, I would suggest, amount of leave in some places, difficulties in deploying people and what have you. We are hoping to work through that this year. In any event, we will be monitoring the situation this year and if changes are warranted then we will consider them after we have had a full year under this regime.

MR. JOYCE: So, you do not think the situation that happened last year warrants - that was a good enough review?

MR. TAYLOR: There was no review done of it last year.

MR. JOYCE: The department did not carry out a review on the closure of the depots, even with all the issues that were raised by...?

MR. TAYLOR: There was a review inasmuch as people know what happened and what have you, but last year, as I said, the decision was not implemented until late June, early July, so the cost savings that were associated on the salary side - all of the savings were not realized, so you did not have the full amount of $1.5 million to put into the supplies budget. As well, there were productivity issues in some regions of the Province, and the productivity issues had an impact on the delivery of the road maintenance program. That was more pronounced in some regions of the Province than it was in other regions of the Province, which clearly tells you that the problem, while there may be problems with the implementation of the program, the implementation of the program was not all the problem.

MR. JOYCE: What was the problem?

MR. TAYLOR: We will see what happens this summer and then I will tell you afterwards.

MR. JOYCE: There was no evaluation done last year to find out what the problem - obviously there was a problem.

MR. TAYLOR: I am not going to say it, what.... There are a number of problems, and they were not all related to the management and the implementation of the program. Some of it had to do with worker productivity in certain regions of the Province. If the problem was the implementation of the program, and the decision, then we would have seen those productivity problems everywhere in the Province; however, in some regions the productivity was acceptable and in some regions the productivity was unacceptable.

MR. JOYCE: You mentioned that the money saved is $1.5 million. How many staff were laid off? Was it eighty-five?

MR. TAYLOR: Approximately eighty.

MR. JOYCE: Eighty.

Is there any possibility of getting a list of what their qualifications or duties were, the ones that were laid off? I am sure -

MR. TAYLOR: What was that?

MR. JOYCE: If I could get a list of their positions, their titles, of the eighty that were laid off.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I would think so.

They are either equipment operators or labourers. If you want a breakdown of it, I guess you can get it.

MR. JOYCE: I was just wondering if I could get, for each region, how many were laid off for each region, and their positions. I do not know if that is possible to get. I am sure it is available.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I do not know, Mr. Chairman, if someone else wants to have a few words.

CHAIR: All right, we will give you are break. I was just going to wait for you to finish up.

Mr. Oram, do you have any questions?

MR. ORAM: No.

CHAIR: Mr. Forsey?

MR. FORSEY: No, thank you.

CHAIR: Ms Marshall?

MS E. MARSHALL: None.

CHAIR: Welcome, Ms Marshall. She showed up a few minutes ago. Welcome to the Committee.

MS E. MARSHALL: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

We see the implementation of the third year on the ferry rates. How much will the Province collect from this latest increase?

MR. TAYLOR: I am not sure of the exact figure. It is between $100,000 and $150,000; not a big amount of money.

MR. JOYCE: Are there any more expected rates or is that going to be evaluated after this year, or is that just a budget decision?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, there is an evaluation of ferry rates ongoing. Right now there is an evaluation of fees ongoing within government anyway. We have pretty well completed our evaluation of ferry rates and freight rates, vehicle passenger rates throughout the Province and we will be looking to make some decisions on that in the coming months.

MR. JOYCE: Another question - polls. I am assuming if there were polls done for the government, would most of them go through the Department of Transportation and Works, put them out on tenders or invitation for -

MR. TAYLOR: Polls?

MR. JOYCE: So, they do not go through Transportation and Works if government wants to get some review or -

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: They do not go through the department? Because, as you know, there are a certain number done. I was just wondering if they went through the proper procedure of having it tendered out or -

MR. TAYLOR: I would not be able to tell you, sir. We do not have responsibility for them, I can tell you that.

MR. JOYCE: You have no idea, okay.

You mentioned that the commitment is made to build the two ferries here in the Province. Is that going to affect the Atlantic procurement agreement whatsoever? Has there been an evaluation done on that, if it will affect that?

MR. TAYLOR: We understand that there are issues there, but we are fairly confident that we can work our way through them.

MR. JOYCE: In your budget there is a certain amount of money spent on advertisement, radio, TV advertisement. I am sure a lot of it is just highway safety and other things. Is there a breakdown on that? How much does the department spend on that or budgeted for this year on that?

MR. TAYLOR: We can get it for you Eddie. I cannot tell you right off hand.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: We are not out trying to get my face on TV, I can tell you that.

MR. JOYCE: No, I was just wondering, because I am sure in the department there is a certain amount that has to be spent on roads.

MR. TAYLOR: Snow means slow, and those types of safety programs; moose alerts.

MR. JOYCE: Has there been any additional hiring in the communication staff or in the minister's office itself in the last year?

MR. TAYLOR: No.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

Temporary employees - does the Province still hire temporary, or are there any temporary employees in the department or in the office over here, or is it mainly all contractual positions? I should ask: How many contractual positions have been hired in the last year by the department?

MR. TAYLOR: There would not be very many but I really would not be able to tell you right off hand.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a list of who was hired and their positions?

MR. TAYLOR: I am sure we can, yes.

As for the temporary positions; well, sometimes there is an odd one of those but they are the exception more than the rule. They would be very few and far between as well.

MR. JOYCE: The contracts that were given out under Professional Services or Purchased Services, how many, and what were the costs of Purchased Services or Professional Services and how was it done?

MR. TAYLOR: Can I ask where you are?

MR. JOYCE: It is under the department there, Professional Services.

MR. TAYLOR: Professional Services, Purchased Services, they are in a lot of places in the -

MR. JOYCE: I mean mainly the minister's office, itself.

MR. TAYLOR: The minister's office, itself. Yes, it is $3,700. That Purchased Services, if I am not mistaken, is the one that is associated with the hosting of the Atlantic Transportation Minister's meeting.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, that is it.

MR. JOYCE: The weigh scales, with the opening of the two new scales, is that mainly under Government Services more so than -

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The reason why - I just noticed that was in the highlights of Transportation and Works, but it is mainly under Government Services?

MR. TAYLOR: Right.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I will just go through a few Budget highlights, line by line. Subhead 1.2.01, there is a change there under Executive Support.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Do you know what that change was?

MR. TAYLOR: Are you talking about the Salary line?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: That one was revised down based on where we had a turnover in communications staff. One communications director left, another communications director came in, and there was a lag and what have you. Of course, all salary lines are revised up because of the increases in the salary as a result of the collective agreement and step progression, and what have you. You will notice that in pretty well every line in the Budget, I guess.

MR. JOYCE: In 1.2.03, there is an increase in -

MR. TAYLOR: Subhead 1.2.03, Policy Development and Planning.

MR. JOYCE: There is an increase in Transportation and Communications. What was the -

MR. TAYLOR: Okay. That is where the - as I said earlier - ministerial committee on Labrador transportation that we recently announced, a nine-member committee in Labrador. That is where the Transportation and Communications support is for that committee, to enable them to travel to meetings of the committee and travel throughout Labrador. If they have to engage in any consultation, that is where the funding for that committee is placed.

You will note that it is revised down from $35,000 to $19,000. That is basically because there was less staff travel in the past year than it had been anticipated.

MR. JOYCE: The Mail Services in 1.2.04., there has been a lot of - I know out our way and on the West Coast. Will the mail services remain within the department itself? There was some contemplation that it may be taken out from the department. It probably is a rumour out our way. Part of the realignment was the -

MR. TAYLOR: No. You never know, lots of people start rumours for no good reason.

MR. JOYCE: But that is why you ask, to try to get the answers.

MR. TAYLOR: That's right. No, there is no contemplation of that, that I am aware of.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

Subhead 1.2.05., there is an increase there in Purchased Services.

MR. TAYLOR: In 1.2.05., the increase in Purchased Services. Okay. That is related to, if I am not mistaken, an increase in insurance deductible claims.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.03., there is a decrease in Maintenance and Repairs.

MR. TAYLOR: I do not understand what you are asking because the budget is up by $2 million, actually up by $2.5 million from the budget last year and up a little less than $2 million from the actual revised.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but was all the money used last year for that?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, we budgeted $11,800,000 for it and we spent $12,600,000. Actually, $800,000 more than we budgeted got spent in Maintenance and Repairs.

MR. JOYCE: The budget this year has increased again?

MR. TAYLOR: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: What is the total budget for snow and ice removal in the Province?

MR. TAYLOR: The total budget? I guess the total budget was $49 million; summer and winter.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, $27,800,000 for winter; snow and ice control.

MR. JOYCE: Twenty-seven million?

MR. TAYLOR: $27,873,400.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, you hear conflict when there is a problem with the ice and snow. What is the policy of the department? You mentioned that the highway equipment is taken off the road from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. but can be called back in emergencies. Is there a direct policy of the department pertaining to this or is it just when an emergency vehicle needs to go through? Is it the call of the foreman or call of the supervisor?

MR. TAYLOR: Are you talking about the after hours call in?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, the after hours call in; if an emergency vehicle needs to get through they need to contact our dispatcher, who is in Deer Lake, and request - that is probably the most straightforward way of doing it. I guess probably from time to time people might call the plow operator, I do not know. It would not be unheard of for sure. The highways dispatcher at Deer Lake and the details of the emergency, the nature of the emergency provided and if it is determined that it is truly an emergency, then the dispatcher will contact the appropriate people in the area to deploy a piece of equipment.

MR. JOYCE: Was there any decrease - for example, can the foreman on duty have the right or does he have the call to keep people on past 10:00 o'clock if there are treacherous conditions, snow, ice, or is it 10:00 o'clock? That is my question. Is there some kind of judgement call there? I know out our way, sometimes it can change within an hour - and you know it as well as anybody, that it can change within an hour - and the foreman who is on duty at 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock and for some reason there is a change in conditions, without salt and sand on the road it could be treacherous. Do they have that flexibility to do that, or is it just 10:00 o'clock you are off the road?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, obviously, they have the flexibility because there is plenty of times in the year that you will see a plow on the road after 10:00 in the night. Regents have the discretion. It is up to them to make the decision on that. I can only say, as you have, I am sure, seen snow blowers, heavy equipment and plows of one type or another on the road around the clock when it is warranted to be on the road around the clock.

For example, when the road between Paddy's Pond and Salmonier Line was closed earlier this year, equipment was on the road for an hour to an hour-and-a-half after the normal time and on the road again about an hour before normal time, at that time. That is at the discretion of the people who make the decisions in the area on the ground. It is not much point having - when you have heavy drifting and whiteout conditions - a vehicle on the road at 3:00 o'clock in the morning trying to clear a road that has zero visibility and is going to be drifted in half an hour after you clear it.

MR. JOYCE: No, and the reason I asked that, just in the Bay of Islands - which I am more familiar with, and the Corner Brook area, Pasadena area and other areas - it is almost common knowledge now that once 10:00 p.m. comes there are no trucks on the road, even if it is turning cold - it was mild or if there is snow, it is just -

MR. TAYLOR: Well, I imagine it is common knowledge by now, considering that it was in place since 1982.

MR. JOYCE: A lot of times the foreman had the discretion to keep people on.

MR. TAYLOR: And they still do. Regents have the discretion to determine when their plows are on the road. If it is warranted to have a vehicle on the road after 10:00 p.m., then they can have a vehicle on the road after 10:00 p.m., but just because it turns cold and the road turns icy 11:00 p.m. that does not necessarily mean that a vehicle is going to be dispatched to that piece of road. Obviously not, because if it was then it is just as well to have 24-7, and 24-7 makes no sense right now. It makes no more sense right now than it did in 2003 when you fellows were the government.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, but I think they were on a bit more when we were around, to be quite honest with you.

MR. TAYLOR: No, they were not, Eddie. You know they were not, I know they were not and everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador knows they were not.

MR. JOYCE: I definitely know they were. I know out in my area -

MR. TAYLOR: They were not! The policy today is exactly the same as the policy when you fellows were the government.

MR. JOYCE: Definitely, they were around more.

MR. TAYLOR: They were not! So stop fabricating a myth, continuing to perpetrate a story.

MR. JOYCE: Do not tell me I am fabricating things, Trevor, when I can see with my own two eyes.

MR. TAYLOR: You are fabricating, Eddie. You know you are, I know you are.

MR. JOYCE: You have no idea. You should take a drive out there.

MR. TAYLOR: I have been on the road. Eddie, I spend 80,000 to 90,000 kilometres a year on the road. I know what the roads are like. I know what the snow clearing on the Northern Peninsula is like today, just the same as I knew what the snow clearing on the Northern Peninsula was like ten years ago. There is no difference.

MR. JOYCE: Come out and meet with the council some time and ask them if it is the same, and you will find out, if you want it from somebody else.

MR. TAYLOR: It is the same thing.

MR. JOYCE: Come out and ask them.

MR. TAYLOR: It is the same thing. As a matter of fact, if anything, we have better equipment on the road now then we had when you fellows were government because we just spent more money putting them there.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, there is no one there to fix them.

MR. TAYLOR: The same number of mechanics are on now as when you fellows were the government. So, when you are talking about stuff, deal with the facts; just the facts.

MR. JOYCE: Trevor, I am not the one here now saying that the reason why a lot of the trucks were not on the road last year is because of low productivity from the workers. To me, that is just unbelievable.

MR. TAYLOR: Why? I never said that. I never said that is the reason trucks were not on the road.

MR. JOYCE: Well, that is part of the reason you said.

MR. TAYLOR: I did not. I absolutely did not. The people who are responsible for the trucks are the mechanics and the same number of mechanics are working now as were working before. So, it has nothing to do with it.

MR. JOYCE: We will see when we get the Hansard; we will see.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I know what I said. Well, I do not care what you get with the Hansard. You can do what you like with it but at least deal with the facts, okay?

MR. JOYCE: They are facts.

MR. TAYLOR: The facts are - the policy now is exactly the same as it was when you fellows were the government. The same thing tomorrow as it was yesterday. The same thing yesterday as it was three years ago.

MR. JOYCE: Go out and check with the councils to show that it is not, believe me.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, all right.

MR. JOYCE: Two point -

MR. TAYLOR: You check the budget and see what is being spent and you will see that it is the same thing. As a matter of fact, it is more.

MR. JOYCE: A bit touchy today are we?

MR. TAYLOR: No, boy. When somebody fabricates stuff intentionally or otherwise - I am not saying that you are doing it intentionally. If you do not know the facts, then get the facts and deal with the facts. I have no problem debating you on the facts but I am not going dealing with innuendo.

MR. JOYCE: Trevor, there is absolutely no way in the world you can tell me - and we are not going to settle this because you have your opinion and I have mine.

MR. TAYLOR: No we are not, because you are suggesting, as you have for some time, that the winter road maintenance policy of the government today is different than it has been in the past, and that is absolutely incorrect. It is not factual.

MR. JOYCE: I can assure you - and I do not know what the staff over there are saying - that if you check with the depot in the western region, their discretion is not as agreeable to some people in St. John's for out snow clearing after 10 o'clock. Now, we can argue all - but meet with some of the councils. I ask you to come out and give it some -

MR. TAYLOR: I am not going to meet with the councils on it, Eddie. The fact of the matter is, the policy is the policy, the budget is the budget, and if you can go through the policies and if you can go through the budgets of this department over the past ten years and point out to me how it has changed since 1982, then I will gladly eat my words. Now, you go for it. Okay?

MR. JOYCE: I am not asking you to eat your words. I am just saying -

MR. TAYLOR: No, and I am not going to because it is not going to happen. You cannot find it because you are not dealing with facts.

MR. JOYCE: There is somewhere in your department - I do not know if it is a true perception or not, that the regional offices do not have the same discretion for some reason. I can assure you, if you are speaking to any of them, they will tell you that. I do not know what the officials - if you meet with the towns -

MR. TAYLOR: Well, take the Hansard and show it to them okay, because they have the same discretion. You show them and if they have a problem, tell them to call me. I will deal with the facts then.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

MR. TAYLOR: If you have a supervisor out in a depot in the Bay of Islands area who hasn't the discretion to send his equipment on the road when it should be sent on the road, then you tell him to call me.

MR. JOYCE: The Deer Lake area, also.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, wherever. I do not care where it is, Eddie. It could be Fogo if they wants to deal with it; if they have a problem. I visited the depots and I talked to some of the managers and the people on the plows. I drive the roads more than a lot of people in this Province.

CHAIR: We are just going to move along to some of the others. I will come back to you in a minute.

MR. JOYCE: Sure, go ahead.

CHAIR: Mr. Oram? Mr. Forsey? Ms Marshall?

Welcome Ms Jones, the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair who has just joined us. I will go back to Mr. Joyce, unless you wanted to let your colleague go?

MR. JOYCE: I have a few more questions and then you could -

CHAIR: All right. Mr. Joyce, it is all yours.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 3.2.05. Is there a decrease of $200,000?

MR. TAYLOR: There is a decrease of $200,000, and I cannot tell you why that is.

Why is that?

OFFICIAL: It is just the movement of money around between various accounts, I expect. The Provincial Roads Program is up to $60 million. Between current and capital, and shifting money around, you might see some accounts down and others up. In total, the program is up to $60 million, but why that particular number is down, I do not know.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 3.2.09. Land Acquisition. It looks like a major increase. Are there any major land developments that you are buying, or highways?

MR. TAYLOR: What that is, Eddie, there is a $6 million allocation in that for - we anticipate that we are going to soon start the east-west arterial and the Torbay Bypass. In anticipation of that, there is additional money there for land acquisitions. As you know, a lot of this is privately held and we have to get the land in order to build the road.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 3.3.01. Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities. Are there major depots being built or facilities, or -

MR. TAYLOR: On this one, this is the improvements and alterations to existing facilities. What we have here is a couple of things: one is the improvement side of it; maintenance, basically, on our existing buildings, and also, to demolish and remediate any buildings that are a surplus to our needs.

For example, the Grace site, this is where money would have been to deal with the issues at the Grace site this past year. There is an additional allotment of money there to deal with this kind of environmental remediation and to demolish buildings that we do not need and nobody else wants. If nobody wants them, then we have to get them out of our inventory, basically, and clean it up.

MR. JOYCE: The Gushue Bypass road, how much is that going to cost?

MR. TAYLOR: What's that?

MR. JOYCE: The bypass road, the Gushue Bypass road.

MR. TAYLOR: Team Gushue Highway, the east-west arterial, land acquisition and construction is going to cost approximately $40 million.

MR. JOYCE: Forty million?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: What is the breakdown on the funding? Is there -

MR. TAYLOR: Our position of the breakdown on the funding will be one-third provincial, one-third federal and one-third municipal; cost-shared between Mount Pearl and St. John's - the one-third municipal, I mean.

MR. JOYCE: One-third, one-third, one-third. Is the funding in place for that now?

MR. TAYLOR: The funding is there but the final approval has not been given. Funding is there through the Canadian Strategic Infrastructure Fund Phase II. It has been in front of the federal government since August and we are waiting on their go ahead, on their support on the one-third, so to speak. So, the money is there.

MR. JOYCE: How about the municipalities side?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, St. John's has indicated their support. We are awaiting final word from Mount Pearl on their position. They have some concerns, but hopefully, we will be able to work through those.

MR. JOYCE: The road will go ahead, I am assuming?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, we are assuming that the road will go ahead, too.

MR. JOYCE: Out in the public is that St. John's is onside but Mount Pearl is not. Did I hear St. John's already committed $10 million for the project?

MR. TAYLOR: They committed their share of one-third. Yes, it would be close on $10 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, Mr. Chairman.

Yvonne, do you want to ask a few questions?

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Good morning, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Minister and officials.

I have a couple of questions. Most of mine are around Labrador services. I guess I will start with the ferry service for this year, which I understand from the Budget is going to be extended on the Apollo for a four-week period. I know that there is a request in to your department now, Minister, to have that service started by April 12. Can you confirm what the start date is going to be?

MR. TAYLOR: No, I cannot, but I am aware of the request. To the extent that the request can be accommodated, we will. But, as you may know, the contract says that we can have the Apollo on earlier than May 1 but we cannot ask for her earlier than April 15, I believe is the thing. We do not anticipate that being a problem, let's put it that way, but we have not finalized it yet.

Like I said, to the extent that we can accommodate the wishes of the people on the South Coast of Labrador on the scheduling, then we will. I would say we should know where we are going with that by the end of this week.

MS JONES: Yes, I think that the consensus up there would be three weeks in the spring and one week in January, in terms of how the four week fallout would work

MR. TAYLOR: Right.

MS JONES: This late in the year you might not be able to accommodate it this year, but certainly as early as possible would be appreciated, especially with Easter coming on the fourteenth. So, there are a lot of people wanting to get home and get out.

The other questions are - I understand there were some increases in ferry rates in the Budget. My colleague for the Bay of Islands may have already touched on this, but does the rate increase apply to all of the ferry services in the Province or just some of them?

MR. TAYLOR: No, it applies to all.

MS JONES: Including The Straits of Belle Isle service?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, that is correct; a 5 per cent increase.

MS JONES: Okay.

Also, what about the old Marine Atlantic service or marine freight service that runs out of Lewisporte and Cartwright, does the rate increase apply to that service as well?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, it does.

MS JONES: It does. I understand that there is a freight rate review that was commissioned by your department. I think you guys probably had it for about a year. You released it there a couple of weeks ago. Is the department going to consider any of the recommendations that are in that particular report, or have you guys just decided that you are going to go ahead and increase the rates anyway?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, as it stands right now, the decision was taken on rates two years ago and as it stands right now we are proceeding with the rate increase across the board of 5 per cent.

Are we going to consider the recommendations in the report? Yes, we are going to consider them. We are going to consider them in conjunction with our deliberations with the new advisory committee that we put in place in Labrador, and we are going to consider them in conjunction with our review of fees that we are in the process of, as government, looking at right now. I would anticipate, over the next three or four months, that we should have a better picture of where we are going on ferry rates, fees, freight rates and what have you, for the future.

MS JONES: I guess the concern that I have is that the analysis which was done on the freight rates was based on traffic and rates for 2003, and that was the year Lewisporte did not provide any services to Labrador. So, the real cost comparison that I wanted to see is not even in this document.

I think that - not the only issue, but one of the biggest issues we have had is that the cost of shipping freight by the tractor-trailer load out of Lewisporte is not much higher than it is shipping it out of Cartwright. That has been an issue for us, both from a business perspective supplying the northern region of Labrador and Goose Bay, and vice versa for them. That is not included in the study at all. I guess I would like to know if the department is going to go back and do an analysis of it based on Lewisporte as a service of operation, because it was not in 2003 and that is why it is not in the report?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, I think there is an acknowledgment - whether that was covered or not, I mean there is an acknowledgment in the report and an understanding in the department that there is no direct correlation between the distance travelled and the rate applied to freight. I am not sure that we really need to go back and do another evaluation and report on this. I think we have a pretty good understanding of where it is right now. As I said, in our deliberations with the advisory committee we will determine what adjustments, if any, should be made to the freight rates on the Labrador coast.

MS JONES: Yes. Well, I would like to see the adjustments made for the next marine operating year because it is a problem. When you are talking about getting a tractor-trailer load of freight from Lewisporte to Nain and it is only going to cost you $150 or $200 more than from Cartwright to Nain, there is a significant problem there. I mean you have a twenty-four to thirty hour steaming time difference in the entire service but it is not reflected in anyway in the rates. It puts us at a very competitive disadvantage in terms of serving that market area. So, I would like to have it looked at and done for the next year. I do not know if you can commit to do that or not.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, I do not think that we will be able to do - if you asking for this season coming?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: I am not sure that is possible but you do know that what you are suggesting is - I mean, the cost of freight on the North Coast of Labrador is already - the cost of getting goods to the North Coast of Labrador and the cost of goods in a grocery store, for example, on the North Coast of Labrador is already, by any measure, excessive, and any adjustment in the rates along the lines of what you are suggesting, which would put it close to road equivalency, would drive the cost of good on the North Coast even higher. I understand why you are saying it but that is a reality that we have to keep in mind. So, I understand what you are saying and there is the issue of the correlation between the distance travelled and the rate applied. We are cognizant of that and to the extent that we can, we are going to look at it.

MS JONES: It is not only into the North Coast. The same is true into Goose Bay. If I have a propane business in Cartwright, which there is, and I want to sell propane into Goose Bay, and I am competing with someone in Gander, the person who is shipping propane out of Lewisporte to Goose Bay is not paying much more than I am going to pay to ship it out of Cartwright.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MS JONES: That is not a fair advantage. It has been affecting the business in the area, and I would really like to see it adjusted for this year, especially between the Cartwright-Lewisporte and Goose Bay area more so than any of it.

The other issue is with regard to the vehicle transportation out of places like Black Tickle and Rigolet, I will just use as an example. Because there are two vessels that have to go into those communities - for example, Black Tickle, right now, you get the Trans Gulf. This year, I understand, it may be the Astron. I do not know if that has been decided yet or not.

MR. TAYLOR: They are the low bidder; put it that way.

MS JONES: Okay. You get the freight vessel going in; then you get the Northern Ranger going in there as a passenger vessel. If I want to go out for a holiday and I want to take my vehicle, me and my family have to go out on the Northern Ranger. Then we have to wait for the freight vessel to pick up our vehicle and bring it to Cartwright, which is a four or five hour trip. That is fine; you may be overlaid a day or two in waiting. The real issue is in the cost factor. It is costing almost $700 right now to get that vehicle from Black Tickle to Cartwright and back, and that is a lot of money. It is the same thing that is happening from Rigolet to Goose Bay. These communities are very closely related. They do a lot of business together, and they are used as the main station for each area. Rigolet is Goose Bay; for Black Tickle it is Cartwright. If you were looking at going across the Gulf and having to pay that kind of money to get your ferry over and back, I do not think we would have a whole lot of marine transporting going on, certainly not at the level that it is today.

I guess what I am asking is for you to have a look at the rates, especially for vehicles. I know it is a rate that was inherited with the old marine service sector and it is still being based on marine services that were set back then, but the truth is that it is a real impediment and it is not an affordable service for people who live in those communities. I guess I am asking if the government can do something to see if they can lower the rates, especially on vehicle transportation between those communities.

MR. TAYLOR: As I said, all rates are being looked at and we will be making some decisions on them in the not-too-distant future, and I expect that one won't be overlooked.

MS JONES: The other concern is, Black Tickle would like to have their own ferry service. I don't know if the government has considered this. I talked to the deputy about it a few weeks ago. I think you told me you were going to look at the traffic and stuff, because you did not have an idea then what kind of traffic, but the population of the community is less than 200 people so you are not talking about a lot of traffic. Right now there are two vessels that have to go into that community, that I am sure is costing the government a fair chunk of change because they are operating between Cartwright and Black Tickle, then back to Cartwright, and all points north to Nain and then back.

What they would like to see is a smaller ferry that could be used just between Cartwright and Black Tickle two to three times a week. They need to have something you can put a vehicle on. It might only be two vehicles, or three, going out of there in a week, and coming in; you still need to be able to carry them.

With the plant there, they have also raised the issue about getting containers in and out. I do not see that as being an obstacle to a smaller ferry service because I think if you have a freight vessel that is going to be coming back and forth from the North Coast, if they only stop in there two or three times a summer you can probably take care of all the reefers that are coming out from the plant. Not only that, the plant closes down now the first week in July; so, to me, it is not like an issue that could stop them from having an individual ferry service.

I don't know if you would like to have a look at that and see what the potential cost of doing something like that might be, or to see if there is actually a ferry that the Province has that is not in use, or not going to be in use over the next little while, that might be able to provide a service into Black Tickle, between Black Tickle and Cartwright at all.

I would like to make that request. I did it formally, in writing, to your office, and I did talk to the deputy, but I would really like to have it looked at seriously.

I will just wait for you to respond.

MR. TAYLOR: I do not think we have either vessel, but that is sort of beside the point. The vessel configuration on the Coast of Labrador is something that we are committed to reviewing right now. We have said that. At the end of the day, what you are suggesting may make sense. I really do not know. I do not know if there is any kind of evaluation that has been done on it. You are right; I understand what you are saying about the freight service, and the requirement for a freight service going in and out of there is not quite as significant as it was a few years back. Maybe there is a way of altering the service there that makes sense for everybody, but I cannot give you that answer today, obviously.

MS JONES: Yes.

Well, you know, there are two very large ships that are going in and out of there right now, one taking passengers and one taking freight and vehicles. I just look at it and think that in most of the smaller areas around the Province there have been individualized services developed for them, and it had to be because it was cheaper, more effective, and providing a better service to the people in the community. That is why I think it needs to be looked at for Black Tickle.

Just out of curiosity, where is the Sound of Islay now? Is she still in commission or is she out?

MR. TAYLOR: She is in commission.

MS JONES: Where do you use her?

MR. TAYLOR: Right not, she is on the Little Bay Islands run?

OFFICIAL: I do not know if she is back in yet (inaudible) motor problems. I am not sure. If it is not in yet, it will be back in very shortly.

MS JONES: I cannot hear him.

MR. TAYLOR: She operates on the Little Bay Islands run, but we are not sure right now if she is in or she is out because she had some motor problems. She is not just lying around. If she is tied up, she is tied up because of mechanical problems.

MS JONES: Is she the main vessel on that service, or is she an alternate or swing vessel, or partly committed there or what?

MR. TAYLOR: She is the main one on the Little Bay Islands run.

MS JONES: Okay.

The other thing I wanted to raise is some issues with regard to the Labrador Marine Transportation Study. It was done two years ago. Your department had it for two years, and had two years to study all the information that is in it. I understand now that this report, before there are any decisions made around it, is going to be passed over to a transportation committee that was set up by yourself in Labrador.

I would like to know what the purpose of that is, what their job is, how long we can wait before we see some expected results coming out of this, because it was done in 2004 - it is now almost May, 2006, which would be two years - and we need to have some better service than we have right now. I am just wondering, how long is it going to take, and what the purpose is having them review it after it has been done by the full policy centre of the university and by your department for two years.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, you know, decisions will be made on it when we are ready to make decisions on it. We have heard time and again from Labrador, that they want to be consulted on issues in Labrador. They did not just want government making decisions in the absence of consultations, hence the Minister's Advisory Committee on Labrador Transportation. They have the report. They have had it for, I guess, about a month or more now. I expect to meet with the committee. We have a meeting set up. So unless something comes out of left field and causes it to be cancelled, we will be meeting with them within a week, a little over a week I guess it is - within two weeks anyway, put it that way. We will be discussing this report and the other two reports. We will move forward on these decisions when we are ready.

MS JONES: Does this committee have a mandate to consult with people?

MR. TAYLOR: Pardon?

MS JONES: Do they have a mandate to consult with people?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, they do have a mandate to consult. What we would envisage, basically, is that - depending on the issue, there could be - just for example, the Southeast Coast airport, whether there should be a regional airport or a continuation of the existing operations. What we would probably anticipate doing there is asking the committee to engage in some public consultation with affected communities. Based on that, then provide us with feedback from the communities on how we should move forward.

MS JONES: I will get to the airport in a minute, but -

MR. TAYLOR: I am just using, by way of example. You asked, do they have a consultation mandate -

MS JONES: Yes, because I understood there were requests that went into this committee from different groups in my district. It was my understanding, from their feedback, that their job was really to review the documentation submitted to them by government and to provide feedback based on this, not to go out and hold community meetings and meet with groups and mayors -

MR. TAYLOR: Well, first of all, when I did a press conference in Happy Valley-Goose Bay and announced this committee, I asked people - obviously, people did not listen, if what you are telling me is correct. I asked people to give the committee a little bit of time - they are a volunteer committee - to read the reports and understand what the reports said. I said, at that time, that the committee may be engaged in public consultations on various issues in Labrador as required and as determined by me and the department.

I am the Chair of the committee, and when the time comes that we are ready to move forward on it, in conjunction with the committee and the department, we will determine when, where, and if public consultations are warranted. Right now, we have not had our first meeting of the committee. We will have it within two weeks and we will determine then how we do it. As I said back a little over a month ago when we announced the committee, I just asked people to give the committee a little bit of time to get ready and then we will move forward on it.

MS JONES: With the Labrador marine services, the transportation study, this study was done because the people in the area wanted to have a certain kind of marine service and they approached government on it. At the time the Premier was on a conference call, that I was on in Cartwright, and he committed to go into the policy division of the university to have the study done. He also said that whatever they recommend at the end of the day is what we will implement. Well, that did not happen. At the end of the day, what they recommended was completely opposite of what government did, and it leaves us with very little faith in terms of any of these reports, any of these recommendations or any process that the government may use from here on in. What they actually came back and recommended was that it should be a ferry service that was Labrador based and operated between Cartwright and Goose Bay. Instead, the decision was made to move the ferry service back to Lewisporte, despite the fact that Lewisporte had already received economic development funds to diversify its economy, that everything had been shut down and all the rest of it. That was what happened, and it leaves you with very little faith. So now we have a report that was -

MR. TAYLOR: Yvonne, you know, as well as I do, that while there was wide support for what you are suggesting and what the report recommended in Southern Labrador, it was far from a unanimous endorsement of that report in Northern Labrador, Central Labrador and Western Labrador. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that the majority of the people in Northern Labrador, Central Labrador and Western Labrador were opposed to the recommendations of the report.

MS JONES: Well, I will not agree with that statement, but I will say that there were some people, yes, who were apposed to it.

MR. TAYLOR: I am not asking you to.

MS JONES: A lot of them were on the North Coast and that could have been easily dealt with because we were talking about a ferry between Cartwright and Goose Bay and if the North Coast wanted their freight to come from somewhere else, they could have used their boats to have it delivered to them from somewhere else. So, that was not an issue.

The thing is, right now we have a report that took a consultant six months - a whole division of a consulting firm at the university six months to put together, it took your department two years to analyze, and now you are going to send it out to a transportation committee that was just appointed, many of whom I know personally and have known for a long time and know they have very little expertise when it comes to transportation. They are just well-rounded individuals who live in a community and have an opinion like -

MR. TAYLOR: Well, if they are well-rounded individuals who have the ability to think independently, I suspect that it will not take them long to understand what the reports say, and they have common sense.

MS JONES: Yes, but all I am saying to you is that you have had experts, for three years, on this file - or people who were being paid for paid solicited opinions and advice. The whole study was done based on consultation in my district. There were meetings held in every area with every, single individual who was affected and needed to be advised, and wanted to have something to say. I just really feel that it is procrastination on behalf of the government because (inaudible) so you do not have to deal with it.

MR. TAYLOR: There is not going to be any change to the vessel configuration. Government has been clear on that. There is not going to be any change to the vessel configuration as it relates to the Bond. We did not contract yet, but we just went to tender and received bids on the North Coast service. As you said, the Astron appears to be the vessel that is going to be serving the North Coast. We have not entered into a contract on that yet, but they were the low bidders. That is a four-year contract. The road is going to be completed by the end of 2009. Government has clearly stated that, from the perspective of those services, there will not be a change to the vessel configuration until the Trans-Labrador Highway Phase III is completed. You can call it procrastination, you can call it what you like, the fact of the matter is the recommendations, as it relates to the vessel configuration, that debate is not all that relevant until 2010.

MS JONES: Yes, but the rates are relevant right now and the task of the committee is to (inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Oh yes, the rates are relevant. That is a different issue. I have already told you what I am going to do on the rates. I told you that we have done a review internally on the rates. I told you that we have just completed that internally. The study that was done was provided to the committee a month ago and they have access to it. I told you that within the next three or four months we are going to be making some decisions on ferry rates, passenger rates, vehicle rates and freight rates around this Province in the next three or four months as part of the overall review of fees that government is engaged in across all departments.

If you do not accept that, that is fine, but I am telling you that is what we are going to do. I don't expect that you thought we were going to extend the Apollo contract by a month, and I don't expect that you expected $700,000 to be put in the Budget to keep the road open between Red Bay and Lodge Bay, but we are doing that too. When we get ready we are going to deal with the rates, and when we get ready we are going to deal with the vessel configuration, and we will do it as fairly and even-handedly as we can.

MS JONES: In the meantime I am going to ask you questions about it, so it is no need of you getting upset.

MR. TAYLOR: I am not upset, not at all.

MS JONES: So just sit there and relax.

MR. TAYLOR: I am just telling you, when you said that you don't accept it and whatever, well, I can only tell you what it is. You can ask and I will answer. I will give you the same answer now as I will give you tomorrow.

MS JONES: As you will give me next year, that you gave me last year.

MR. TAYLOR: I didn't give them to you last year. I didn't answer these questions last year. Hopefully, some of them I will not be answering next year because they will be dealt with.

MS JONES: Okay.

My next questions are on the regional airport study. Again, I understand it is being referred to this committee that you have set up.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MS JONES: The airport study is three years in the making - this particular draft that I have here, these forty or fifty sheets of paper here. How much did it cost you to have this study done?

MR. TAYLOR: We can get it for you, Yvonne; I don't know offhand.

MS JONES: Okay.

Well, I guess I had a read through it -

MR. TAYLOR: Excuse me, can we just recess for a couple of minutes? Because I have to make an important phone call.

MS JONES: Yes, go ahead.

MR. TAYLOR: Is that all right?

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: Just give me five or ten minutes.

CHAIR: Order, please!

All right, folks, we are going to start up again now.

Ms Jones, you had the floor.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My next line of questions is on the regional airport. There was a pre-design study that was done for the department and I think, when we finished off, I was asking how much the study had cost. I do not know if you were able to find the figure or not when we were on break?

MR. TAYLOR: No.

MS JONES: Okay, but I do know it was, like, three years in the making. I also know that there was consultation held in the district prior to this, because there wasn't much point in looking at a regional airport if there wasn't going to be some support for it. At the time, in fact, there was support, I think, from all communities, except one, that Port Hope Simpson area would be used - whether the airport that is there now, or somewhere in that area would be used - as a regional airport facility. To my knowledge, that has not changed. There is still full support for it to be located in that area and to service the six or eight communities around that region.

I guess my concern is the length of time that all of this has taken. Since the road has gone through, and especially in the last three or four years, we have had a steady decline in air services in that area to the point now that in the winter you can only get off the coast, with the exception of Cartwright and Black Tickle, who have a five-day-a-week service between Goose, Cartwright and Black Tickle, because that is where the bulk of the traffic is for that region, but everything south of that. So, from Charlottetown on south to Mary's Harbour, we have a three-day week service in the winter to St. Anthony, and if one of those three days the weather is down then you just do not get an alternate service. In the summer, we get one flight south and one flight north for a seven day period. It really is inadequate. There have been a lot of problems, especially for people who have to access the services of St. Anthony hospital, which is pretty well everyone who gets sick in the area, so it has been very difficult, and also for mail services and for goods and stuff coming in.

I would like to see some swift action on behalf of the government to deal with this, because there is a huge gap in the service that has to be met. I was really disappointed when I read the study and I realized that one of the options that was being looked at here is continuing with a Twin Otter aircraft service for the region. That was never what we intended. When all of this started, and the initial consultations were done, the selling factor in the region, to have a regional airport, was definitely the fact that we could have a larger aircraft that would operate there, hopefully, five days a week in and out of the region. So, I think a lot of people were like myself, they were shocked and they were disappointed, when we found out that one of the preferred options and recommended options in this was just to continue with a Twin Otter aircraft service.

I am hoping that in the government's deliberations of all of this - and I think you have had a year now to deliberate on this report. I think you had it in your department for a year before it was released. I am sure that over the year you have examined all of those options, but the preference is, no doubt, to have a regional air service that would be a larger sized aircraft.

Even in discussions with Air Labrador and Provincial Airlines back two or three years ago it was what they preferred, as local carriers that were going into the area, unless something has changed that they certainly have not made me aware of.

I guess I have to ask if the government can make this a priority and deal with it as soon as possible. I know you are going to refer this out to the committee as well. Although it has been three years being done by a consultant and one year being reviewed by your department, you are still going to send it our to a committee and let them give you some feedback, but I would like to ask that the feedback would come sooner rather than later and this issue get dealt with as soon as possible.

MR. TAYLOR: Therein lies the reason why you just do not take reports and run off with them. On the previous report, you suggested that we should on and do what it said. On this one, you are saying that we should not necessarily go on and do what it says.

MS JONES: No, it says two things.

MR. TAYLOR: I know. I know what it says. I know exactly what it says.

We will be moving fairly expeditiously on this issue. The thing with the airport issue in Southeastern Labrador, there has to be an agreement between the federal minister and the provincial minister before these airports can be shut down, in order to make one regional airport. It is important to have a consensus on the ground in Southern Labrador, and hopefully by now all of the communities will be on side with this.

I know what you are talking about with one community not being on side previously. It is important - not to say that stuff cannot be done without unanimity, but it would certainly be desirable to have a solid consensus on what should happen as it relates to a regional airport in this area. That would make it easier for us to deal with the federal government, to get the necessary sign-offs to close down the other three airports if we are to move forward with a regional facility in Port Hope Simpson.

We will be moving on it fairly quickly, and we will also be discussing with Provincial Airlines and Air Labrador what their views are as it relates to Twin Otter versus larger aircraft, should this become a regional facility. That will be incorporated into our decisions also.

MS JONES: Okay.

The terms of reference in this, for this study to be done, was that changed at any point throughout this piece of work over that three year period?

MR. TAYLOR: Not that we are aware of. Not that I am aware of, anyway.

MS JONES: I am just wondering why it took so long.

MR. TAYLOR: I cannot answer that, Yvonne, in all honesty. I do not know, my dear.

MS JONES: Do the officials know why it took so long?

You give out a contract that takes a consultant three years to finish a piece of work for you and nobody knows why. I don't expect the minister to know, he just got there, but I would like to know why.

MR. TAYLOR: If you want an answer, we will get you an answer on it. I could lie to you, but I cannot tell you right now.

MS JONES: I don't want you to lie to me.

MR. TAYLOR: I don't make a practice of doing that, but I will see if I can find an answer for you.

MS JONES: I would appreciate that, because it is a long time. It would be nice to know why it took so long, and it would be nice to know how much it cost to have it done. It would be interesting.

I would also like to get some commitment from you, Minister, on having this dealt with in as short a time as possible, because we really do not have adequate air services in that area.

MR. TAYLOR: I agree. I understand fully what you are saying and I cannot disagree with it. I can only tell you that we will deal with it as expeditiously as we can.

As I said, we had the committee in place fairly quickly. We have a meeting set up. We are going to be meeting within the next two weeks. As part of this, we will be engaging with the various service providers, both on the marine and the air services side of the transportation system in Labrador. We will be engaging those people in the very near future on this also, so that we can seek their views.

The consultants did their reports, but we want to talk to the Woodward's, the PAL's, the Air Labrador's of the transportation system in Labrador, because they are the people who are providing the service and they are the people who know the challenges from the other side of the spectrum. The people know it, who use it, on the one side, and that is what the committee sort of reflects. The people who provide the service have a valuable piece of information that we need also, and that is going to happen fairly quickly.

MS JONES: Okay.

Just to talk about the road for a few minutes, I know in the budget there was $700,000 approved for equipment between Red Bay and Lodge Bay Road. What kind of equipment is that, and will it be there for the next operating season?

MR. TAYLOR: It will be there for the next operating season, and it will be whatever equipment is required, I guess. I mean, it is a contract and the contractor will have to provide the equipment that is required to keep the road open year-round.

MS JONES: It was open all year, this year, except for a few snowstorms, where you are going to have to -

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, it was closed about a week-and-a-half there for one stretch, wasn't it?

MS JONES: About seven or eight days.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, it wasn't really closed but -

MS JONES: They were working at it for about seven days.

MR. TAYLOR: - people were managing to squeeze through, I believe, for part of it, even though it wasn't opened very well.

MS JONES: But it has been open all year, and there have been snow blowers down there, and I think if the decision was made to put them down there last year, the road would have been left open last year, but they were there this year and it did the job.

MR. TAYLOR: A good minister, eh?

MS JONES: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You get a pat on the back from me for that one, my son, I will tell you that.

The depot, now, that they are going to put there, are they going to start that this fall?

MR. TAYLOR: The spring.

MS JONES: The spring, I mean.

MR. TAYLOR: The depot should be ready for November.

MS JONES: Okay.

Will there be additional staffing once this is done? Like, the department now has a couple of supervisors, I think, on that section of road.

MR. TAYLOR: Not from a departmental perspective, if that is what you are asking. You know, a contractor will have to put out whatever staff -

MS JONES: They require.

MR. TAYLOR: - they require, to spend the $700,000, but the department staff should not change.

MS JONES: What about the road to Williams Harbour? I know you have $60 million budgeted for roadwork this year in the Province. Do you think you are going to build that road?

MR. TAYLOR: As it stands now, no. Should circumstances change, I don't know; but, at this point, no. There is no intent to build the road, let's put it that way.

MS JONES: Would you like to go to Williams Harbour? It is a lovely community.

MR. TAYLOR: I have been there before.

MS JONES: Well, they are on an island and do you know what is really unfortunate? There is only a very small body of water that separates them from the mainland, and this year they never got off that island by snowmobile because the ice did not allow it. The climate has changed so much in Labrador now that, years when we could use snowmobile to go everywhere, it does not happen any more, so you get people, like the seventy people who live on this island, who are stranded. They never got in or out of there the whole winter. It is unfortunate, because it is only $5 million, or $5.5 million, to build a road, the twenty-three kilometres, to ensure that they have a connection the main highway.

I know that back two years ago the department did a study and said that it was not economically viable to do this, but I do not know of a road that was built to a community in rural Newfoundland and Labrador that was probably economically viable to do. It was done to allow people to have an acceptable standard of living, and to be able to get goods and services in and out of the region. That is all we are asking for here.

Right now, the government is subsidizing air services into this community, they are subsidizing marine services into the community. I think that a road, while it may not be a full economic trade-off, I think it is a good trade-off in the fact that people, at the end of the day, get a better service for the money that government is going to invest.

I want to just ask you to look at it again. I have made the request to the Premier as late as a week-and-a-half ago to do the same. To my knowledge, not one person in the government has been to this community since you have taken office two-and-a-half years ago. I would like for someone to go there. I would like for them to see how people live there, what the challenges are that they have, and realize that for a very small amount of money you can change all of that and improve the standard of living in this community tremendously.

So far, no one as come. Maybe you will. Hopefully, you will. I think it will change your perspective and certainly change the direction that you have taken on this file in the past. There is an open invitation, not just to you, as the minister, but anyone in your government who wants to come and see, and be able to impress upon the Cabinet and the caucus the importance of doing this. I would be happy to take them myself.

MR. TAYLOR: I can only say that I have been there before. Maybe I will go again, based on your invitation; I don't know. I have been there before, not since I have been in politics, though, a long time ago.

Right now, our focus is to complete Phase III and deal with the issues on the Trans-Labrador Highway. Will we, at any time in the future, reconsider this? I don't know, but as it stands right now we are trying to get the Trans-Labrador Highway up to scratch and that is our primary focus. I will leave it at that for right now.

MS JONES: I also had a request into your department this year to do some resurfacing of the road in Black Tickle. I do not know if that has been considered yet. The road in Black Tickle, as far as I know, is owned by Transportation and Works. The only money ever spent there in the ten years that I have been around has come from the Department of Transportation and Works. It is probably two to three kilometres of road around the community which goes to the dock and the airport. I think the last time it would have been done would have been in 2001 or 2002, so it is almost five years since anything has been done there. It is all bedrock now, there is no crushed stone left on it. There is nothing to grade, anything like that. I wrote a letter and made the request, and I talked to the deputy about it as well. I was just wondering if there is any decision made on it, or when I can expect a decision.

MR. TAYLOR: I will look into that, Yvonne, and get you an answer on it. Our roadwork for your district has been announced. Now, whether there is anything that is able to be done in the maintenance budget or not, I really would not be able to tell you right now, but I will get back to you on that one.

MS JONES: That was the bridges, I think.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, that is right.

MS JONES: One million dollars or something for bridges.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MS JONES: This is not a big price tag.

MR. TAYLOR: No, I know.

MS JONES: I would say probably about $300,000, or something like that, would probably do it. The expense there is in the mobilization and demobilization of equipment. It is very expensive to get it in and out of there, but in terms of the work that needs to be done, it is probably not a high price tag on it. You could probably do it all for about $250,000 or $300,000. I talked to you about that, didn't I, Bob?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: All right.

MS JONES: I was just wondering if you could give me an update on the Trans-Labrador Highway now. How much money is going to be spent this year between Cartwright and the Goose Bay section of road?

MR. TAYLOR: Twenty-five-and-a-half million on that section.

MS JONES: Twenty-five?

MR. TAYLOR: Twenty-five point five.

MS JONES: Okay.

Is that two contracts, two separate contracts gone out?

MR. TAYLOR: It was two, wasn't it?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, there are two new projects. Two new contracts, yes.

MS JONES: Okay. I am just wondering how many kilometres that is?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, there are twenty-seven on your end.

MS JONES: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: And twenty-two on the Lake Melville end, it looks like to me - forty-nine kilometres.

MS JONES: Are those awarded yet?

MR. TAYLOR: Pardon?

MS JONES: Are they awarded?

MR. TAYLOR: No, they are not awarded.

MS JONES: They are not tendered yet, are they?

MR. TAYLOR: No. There is carryover there from last year, too. So, there is still work to be done on the Churchill bridge obviously, but there is still some work left on the twenty-nine kilometres that was supposed to done on the Happy Valley-Goose Bay end. There is still work left to be done on the Cartwright end from last year's contract. The Paradise river bridge - well, obviously, that is not finished either.

MS JONES: Okay. So, will you be going to tender with this new contract this year, the twenty-five -

MR. TAYLOR: Oh, yes. The $25 million you mean?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: Oh, yes. There is supposed to be work done this year. We will go to contract on it around June.

MS JONES: Okay. What is the target date now for the completion of that highway?

MR. TAYLOR: The fall of 2009.

MS JONES: Okay.

Can you tell me what is being proposed for the highway between Goose Bay and Labrador City this year?

MR. TAYLOR: No, I cannot, for a variety of reasons. We are still hoping that the federal government is going to come through with their share of the funding to begin the surfacing of the highway, but we are not sure of that yet. If they do not come through, then we will determine what we are going to do.

MS JONES: So you guys have committed to $60 million and asked the feds to match it. Is that what I understand?

MR. TAYLOR: No.

MS JONES: Okay, tell me what the deal is.

MR. TAYLOR: Phase I surfacing, we have committed $10 million a year for five years - so $50 million - and asked them to match it, because it is a national highway system and it does qualify for 50-50 funding.

MS JONES: You are asking the feds to match us on that $50 million. So they would come in with $50 million, too?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MS JONES: Phase I is what part of the road?

MR. TAYLOR: Labrador West to Goose.

MS JONES: The whole thing?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay.

What about the paving of the roads in my area, from Red Bay to Cartwright? The Red Bay to Lodge Bay section now is getting worn pretty bad. I drove over it yesterday and it was very bad. It took me almost two hours to do what normally is an hours drive.

MR. TAYLOR: We do not have any plans in the near future on that. Our focus right now - from a surfacing perspective when it comes to putting down new blacktop, so to speak - is to get Phase I done first and then move on to Phase II.

MS JONES: What is Phase II?

MR. TAYLOR: Your area.

MS JONES: Okay. So, that could be five years plus?

MR. TAYLOR: I guess it depends on the level of commitment that we get from the feds and our fiscal situation. Right now, it would be five years, but that could change. It is really difficult to say right now.

MS JONES: I do not expect the price of oil is going down anytime soon, is it? We should be all right.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, as I heard somebody say last week, that is what they said in the early 1980s, too.

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: And it did. Hopefully, it will not.

MS JONES: I am pretty well finished. There is just one other question. When we were at the Combined Councils meeting it came up that government was possibly looking at putting two small ferries on The Strait of Belle Isle service. Of course, that did not meet with very much approval from people in my area because we like the bigger ship, we like the capacity, we like the way that we have been able to grow the traffic in the industry since we have been able to get a boat like that. I am just wondering if there is any truth to that and what the plans are in the department to make the changes there?

MR. TAYLOR: First of all, there are no plans for changes on The Straits crossing. The President of the Combined Councils got on the radio a day or two after the Combined Councils meeting and got on with speculation, rumour and innuendo, is the way he was putting it. The fact of the matter is, he did not have to speculate and he did not have to suggest that it was rumours or anything like that. I sat down across the table from him and said we need to look at ways of improving the service on The Straits for the people in Labrador. The people in Labrador want a longer service and we agree that there should be a longer service but we do not agree with paying $25,000 a day for a vessel that carries, after September - well, I will say after October, or we will just deal with the time period where the extension is required - about less than 25 per cent - lots of days probably less than 10 per cent - of its capacity. Maybe a way of dealing with that is if we had a two-vessel configuration on The Straits, where two vessels have the combined capacity of the larger vessel and those two vessels would operate in the summer, and then you had a smaller vessel that was less costly to operate that could provide the service in the fall and winter and thereby allow a much expanded service to the people in the area. I said, you know, that is something that maybe we should think about. That was the extent of the discussion on two vessels on The Straits.

Now, is government looking for two vessels for The Straits? No, we are not looking for two vessels for The Straits. We are looking for a good service that can be delivered in a cost-effective manner for the people in Labrador. If that can be delivered with two vessels - lots of people in the Province and in the world operate with two vessels when the traffic warrants it and operate with a smaller vessel when the traffic warrants that. I do not see why there is any difference on The Straits crossing.

MS JONES: No, I do not think anybody would have a problem with having a smaller ferry for three to four months out of the year when the capacity is down, if it meant a year-round ferry service; especially in January, February, March and April, you know.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, first of all, as I said before, a year-round ferry service from St. Barbe is a very, very, very, remote possibility.

MS JONES: Yes, but I think that is why the Town of Port Saunders has been promoting their port as a winter operational port.

MR. TAYLOR: They have.

MS JONES: I can see some benefit in doing that but only for the months that you cannot operate out of St. Barbe and only for the winter months. I think you will also find that people in the area would be satisfied with, probably, a three-day-a-week service in the winter as opposed to a seven-day-a-week service, because they just realize that having the option to use it and get goods and services in is important but they know the demand is not going to be there like it is from May until November. I mean, there are going to be a lot more demands on the service. I think there are some options there that you could look at, but in terms of the peak operations, I do not think there would be any support for a smaller sized vessel of any kind. I think that the capacity has served us fine.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, first of all, the life of the Apollo is getting short. She is an old vessel. So in the not-to-distance future there is going to have to be another vessel.

MS JONES: But it does not have to be something less than adequate.

MR. TAYLOR: Let's get it straight now. Nobody is suggesting anything less than adequate. I think that while we may not have gone as far as people wanted, we went farther than people expected last week in the Budget. Nobody was expecting us to extend the service, and we did. So I think that is a signal to the people in Southern Labrador, that we heard what they have been saying and we understand that the service needs to be changed and improved.

I do not and I will not, and I do not think the department or the government will support a downgrading of the service on that run. What we are trying to do is put something in place that provides a better service and a longer service, and the most cost-effective way of doing that is the way that we will obviously pursue. That will be determined in due course. The contract with the Apollo is in place for the next two seasons and sometime between now and then somebody will have to make a decision. Maybe the decision will be just what you said. Here it is: We want this capacity in the summer. We don't care how you do it as long as this vessel is able to sail in forty knots of wind, for example.

MS JONES: Oh, absolutely.

MR. TAYLOR: If you want to put a 700-footer on there, as long as the docks are able to handle it, than you can put it on. In the winter we want a vessel that has this capacity. Maybe that is the way it will be. I do not know how it is going to be, but that is why we have a committee put in place. That is why I threw it out back in December, so that people could mull it over, talk about it, think about it and get mad about it, all of that. Before we make a decision, sometime around, next year this time I guess, we will have to know where we are going with it. People will have beat it around and we will be in a more informed position. Everybody will be informed of it and hopefully, we will make the right decision.

MS JONES: I do not have any further questions, Mr. Chairman. I was here filling in for the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune. He has arrived now, so I will take my leave.

I thank you, Minister, deputy and your staff, for your patience and your response today.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Jones.

Mr. Sweeney, I think they are pointing to you.

MR. SWEENEY: I have a few questions that I would like to ask. I guess I will start off by asking about my own district first.

Some areas of concern have been raised to me over the past while. Harvey Street in Harbour Grace, that is the Conception Bay North Highway before the Veterans Memorial Drive was opened. There was a committee in place some three years ago to - I think Municipal Affairs, Works, Services and Transportation of the day, were involved in formulating some kind of a plan to turn that over to the town after certain maintenance was done. Has there been any new results on that, anything to report? Because the road itself, Harvey Street right now is almost impassable. It has deteriorated to the point where it is - I get a dozen calls a week regarding the condition of the highway. This winter, on a number of occasions -

MR. TAYLOR: Are you aware if the town is willing to take it over if certain -

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, the town was participating in that committee meeting until whatever happened to it. I know one of the people - Bob, you remember - I think Wayne Churchill was on that committee.

MR. SMART: In Municipal Affairs.

MR. SWEENEY: In Municipal Affairs. He was one of the members. Who was the Deputy Minister or ADM of Works, Services at the time? I cannot remember. I did not have a chance this morning to go through my file to see who was there.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. SWEENEY: So, it just can't be left the way it is. Somewhere, somehow, somebody has to either establish jurisdiction - because the town, obviously, is not willing to take it the way it is. So, there has to be some movement made by government to bring this to a head. Because I know this winter, in particular, I had a lot of complaints about - needless to say, the priority was the Veterans Memorial Highway. Then they would get to Harvey Street with snow clearing. I know, on a number of occasions, it was almost impassable with a four-wheel drive to get up and down over it. I wonder, do you have anything to tell me on that or can you get me some answers?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, we will look into it. I will check into it for you. We are interested, obviously, in turning over the highway to the municipality. We are always interested in that.

As I understand it, there may be some issues with storm sewers and what have you, municipal issues that might have to be addressed. Obviously, that is outside of our purview, but we will check into it and see where it is.

MR. SWEENEY: Okay.

Again, dealing with Harbour Grace and Veterans Memorial Drive, there are two intersections. One at the Kyle and the other one down in, what I call, Bristol's Hope. Both of them are dangerous intersections because of darkness and fog. We are not looking for traffic lights. We are looking for, at least, something to light up the intersection. I think all of the intersections on that highway has, expect for those two intersections. There have been a number of accidents at those intersections and a number of near misses that has taken place there. So, I want to bring that to the department's attention as well and see if there has been anything in the works for that.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, well you raised that with me before. I am aware of it. I had a chat about a similar issue when we had the discussion with the mayor for Carbonear.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, that was another issue I had here and that was regarding traffic lights, which I know the officials in your department differ on. What they are looking at out there is the number of accidents that are taking place at that particular intersection. The other ones are not nearly as costly as a traffic light. They are looking at getting, in Harbour Grace, just some light there to light up the intersection.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. SWEENEY: On the other part of this with the maintenance of Harvey Street and down through. There was a death there a couple of months ago, a young university student. That death was attributed to a pothole, where the girl swerved to avoid hitting this big hole. She went out and had a head-on collision with another car. So, that is part of the problem we are having there with Harvey Street, the lack of maintenance that is taking place. Quite interesting enough - and I have not raised this publicly because the parents, needless to say after losing their daughter, have experienced enough anguish from losing their daughter, but a lot of people in Harbour Grace are pressuring me to go public with that particular incident.

I know the parents quite well and I do not want to do that. I do not feel it is the appropriate thing to do, despite the fact that there are a number of people out there now and a couple of advocates that I would say are getting kind of noisy about the state of those roads there, so I just wanted to make sure that - and what happened the next day, I think, after the accident, the department went out and they filled in that pothole, which made it even more obvious that the pothole may have been attributed to the accident. It is something that I want to see brought to a head, whatever it takes there, to try and get done.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. SWEENEY: Breakwaters. Is your department still involved with breakwaters?

MR. TAYLOR: Where they protect our roads, but that is the extent of it.

MR. SWEENEY: I am talking about Freshwater and Bristol's Hope. Both those are your roads. The one in Freshwater is pretty well gone, it is deteriorated to a point.

MR. TAYLOR: I am not sure. We will check and see. I do not know. What are you suggesting? They need to be - are they...?

MR. SWEENEY: I am just wondering which way to turn. If you folks are not responsible for them any more, then we will have to turn to another source to try to get the repairs.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. SWEENEY: They are not incorporated communities, so obviously they are on their own with doing it.

MR. TAYLOR: Right.

MR. SWEENEY: The other thing is, is the Department of Transportation and Works still responsible for health care facilities with regard to building new facilities?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. SWEENEY: Calling tenders and so on?

MR. TAYLOR: (Inaudible).

MR. SWEENEY: Okay.

What is the status of the long-term care facility for Carbonear? That was ranked with Corner Brook.

MR. TAYLOR: What do you mean, the status of it?

MR. SWEENEY: There was supposed to be a new facility built, attached to the hospital in Carbonear.

MR. TAYLOR: Right.

MR. SWEENEY: There was a link that was supposed to be put between the two facilities. Is there any status on that now? Is that dead, or it is just in the wings waiting?

MR. TAYLOR: It is not dead, I guess. It was announced in the Budget the other day, wasn't it?

MR. SWEENEY: It was not budgeted for, no, not in this Budget.

OFFICIAL: In the Budget, what gets put forth would be with Health and Community Services. Once the decision is made to do it or not within Health and Community Services, we would do the project management but we have no input on whether the decision gets made or not.

MR. SWEENEY: I understand that, but that was brought forward three years ago and it was a priority for Health and Community Services. It was ranked, actually, number one, ahead of Corner Brook. That was a study done by the Department of Health and Community Services.

OFFICIAL: That is not our issue, unfortunately.

MR. TAYLOR: You will have to talk to the crowd in Health.

MR. SWEENEY: Okay.

The other issue for my district is Route 70, between Victoria and Salmon Cove. It is part of the Conception Bay North Highway as well. It services the North Shore part of Conception Bay, and that is almost impassable right now. As a matter of fact, as we speak, there is a petition being done regarding the safety problems that are happening there with school buses and trucks.

Are there any plans for that this year?

MR. TAYLOR: We will be finalizing our roads budget, as I said to your colleague, within the next couple of weeks, and making the rest of our announcements. We have $60 million in our provincial roads budget. That is not going to get us anywhere near where we need to be. It will take us a couple of years at that level in order to catch up with a lot of these roads. That is all I can tell you. If it is in that kind of a state, it will be dealt with as soon as we can get to it. That is all I can say on it right now.

MR. SWEENEY: How much money was budgeted for roads in last year's budget?

MR. TAYLOR: Thirty-three million.

MR. SWEENEY: How much was spent?

MR. TAYLOR: About $45 million.

MR. SWEENEY: You actually spent over the budgeted amount.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes. I guess, basically, there was slippage in other areas and we just moved the money from one section to another and spent it on the provincial roads.

MR. SWEENEY: What polling was done last year by your department? Was there any polling done?

MR. TAYLOR: I have no idea. I doubt if there was any.

OFFICIAL: None to my knowledge.

MR. TAYLOR: None to my knowledge, from November 2 on. Before that I would not be able to speak to it, but I doubt it.

MR. SWEENEY: How many temporary employees were hired over the past - in last year's budget?

MR. TAYLOR: Temporary employees? I am not sure that we can give you an answer on that right now, but there would not be very many. Certainly, from what I am aware of, the only temporary employees we have hired since I have been there have been people who have been hired because we needed somebody for a short period of time. Then, if that person was required for longer, that position was needed to be filled in the longer term, then it was referred to the Public Service Commission, a competition ensued, and they were hired as part of that process. I can think of three or four, but -

MR. SWEENEY: What areas were those three or four hired in?

MR. TAYLOR: I believe there was somebody filling in, in a supervisory position, out in one or two of our depots - I am not sure what the exact classification was - that I was aware of. When I became aware that they were being filled temporarily, I directed the department in the region to proceed with the competition and hire whoever the successful candidate was, in a permanent position.

Outside of that, I think there were a couple of people over in the department who ended up off sick - I do not know why, but anyway it does not really matter why - and I know we ended up with one person for four or five weeks and we ended up, in another position, for six or seven weeks. Those were sort of like clerical type positions, as I recall.

Again, it was dealt with fairly quickly; four or five weeks was the norm. As a rule, we try to avoid temporary positions.

MR. SWEENEY: Has the government allocated any funding for a review of ferry safety?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, BMT Fleet Technology, basically, in August, until we received their report just recently, I guess you could say what that was about was looking at the age of our fleet, the issues in our fleet, and develop a vessel replacement strategy for us. I guess that is essentially what that was about.

MR. SWEENEY: With the age of the ferries, I was thinking more about in terms of the Marine Atlantic fire on their ferry a couple of years ago.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. SWEENEY: I am just wondering if government is having a review of anything there regarding fire safety or anything on their fleet?

MR. TAYLOR: Well, BMT Fleet Technology basically addressed the vessel replacement side of it, but it also talked about the changing safety requirements of Transport Canada, the new Safety of Life at Sea requirements, preventative maintenance issues, the maintenance schedule, those types of things, and it has made some recommendations on that from a safety perspective. They were not just charged with looking at when and what vessels we should replace. They were also charged with looking at the state of the vessels right now, their operations, and how those could be improved from a maintenance and safety perspective.

MR. SWEENEY: I do not know if any of my other colleagues asked this question. The section of the Trans-Canada Highway between Roaches Line and St. John's, are there any plans this year to fix that?

MR. TAYLOR: Between Salmonier Line and St. John's there are plans. As a matter of fact, the contract has already been awarded. Municipal Construction Ltd., or municipal paving, whatever they are called, has the contract; a $4.5 million job. They did the levelling work - if you can call it that - last fall to fill in the ruts. I know that it does not look good and it is rough but the ruts are essentially out of it. What will happen now, as soon as the weather permits, they will begin surfacing between here and Salmonier Line. In some cases there will be one layer, in some cases there will be two layers of asphalt put on over those sections.

MR. SWEENEY: I am glad you said: if you can call it that, because I think what was put down there has been a curse to a lot of windshields this particular winter because it is all coming back up again.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, if we did not do it, then everybody would be complaining about the ruts and hydroplaning. We would probably end up with substantially more vehicles four wheels up than we had this year.

MR. SWEENEY: I know all about it.

MR. TAYLOR: So, losing a windshield is a small price to pay for staying on four wheels, I figure.

MR. SWEENEY: Yes, I know all about it.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, that's right.

MR. SWEENEY: That concludes my questioning for now anyway.

MR. LANGDON: A couple of questions for me have to deal with the district. I thought last year in the budget there was some money allocated to tear down or demolish that old cottage hospital in Harbour Breton, but it has not happened. I see it is still there. Was that right? Was I correct in thinking that there was some money there for that, to have that demolished?

MR. SMART: Yes, that is the case, Mr. Langdon. Then we got into a discussion of - as part of the Harbour Breton employment initiatives and so on to deal with the crisis in the town - whether the town had any reuse for the facility. Could they use it for something, and if it did have to get torn down, was there a way to do it that would provide employment to people in the area? So, the details of how to do it did not get worked out. We are still committed to taking it down if there is not an alternative use for the facility. I would expect we will reach that conclusion reasonably soon and get on with it this season. That was the plan, but due to local issues and local considerations is the only reason it did not proceed.

MR. LANGDON: I understand. I know where you are coming from, but I would think that - the building was built in 1955, I think it is, and probably has some asbestos and things like that in it. I know the sewer system is under the parking lot in front of the hospital. So, there would be a lot of work needed to put the infrastructure back if the community was to use it. So, that is fine. I know that it is still in process. Hopefully, sometime this year we will see a resolution to it one way or the other.

MR. SMART: We will assess all our wharfs. Like the provincial roads, when we have an allocation for wharf and terminal maintenance we then assess the condition of all and make a decision on the allocation of the funds.

MR. LANGDON: I appreciate that, and that was my next question. Some years there has been a small amount of money, probably $25,000, $50,000, that has been allocated where the local people would - because they do not have highways, obviously, but to use some concrete to improve the walkways that they have there and so on. If it is not already budgeted, I will be looking for probably a small commitment. I will write a letter to the minister asking for that, to see if we can continue that; that will come in shortly. No large sums of money but what it does, it improves the quality of life for the people who are there to be able to manoeuvre and get around.

The other question that I have is more of a general one. The $60 million that is being spent this year on the Provincial Roads Program - and the question might have been asked before. By the way, I had a prior commitment. That is why I was not here, and I am not meaning to put you through all this stuff again. That is not me, you know. I don't do it that way. But out of the $60 million, how much of it is carried over from 2004-2005, roughly?

MR. TAYLOR: Approximately, I think it is $11.6 million; $10 million on, I guess you can call it, provincial roads. I am not sure exactly what the right way - anyway, out of the $11.6 million, $1.6 million of it is associated with what is now referred to as Team Gushue Highway.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, okay.

The other thing is, I talked to the minister privately on the Bay d'Espoir Highway and I am satisfied with the answers that I have gotten on that. Considering the price per kilometre of road this year that the contractors seem to be looking for, how many - just a ballpark figure for me personally. How many kilometres of road are you looking at out of the $60 million in 2006 for the amount of dollars that you would spend compared to what you would be able to get out of that, say in 2003-2004?

MR. TAYLOR: There are a combination of reasons why we cannot really give you a straight answer on that. The price of liquid asphalt has gone up and is causing us trouble. You have the normal inflation plus the cost of liquid asphalt - which I suppose is inflation, but it is not what you would call normal inflation. On top of that, we are trying to do a fair bit of bridge and culvert work this year, and that is sort of skewing numbers a little bit from what you would have seen in previous years. Again, it is not a direct correlation between the $60 million and the number of kilometres compared to, say, $30 million. We are definitely not going to get twice as many kilometres, and part of the reason is because we are doing a fair bit of bridge and culvert work.

MR. LANGDON: I know these are district things, but there is about a half a kilometre of road before you get into the community of St. Alban's. I mean it is really, really, really bad. I am wondering if it is possible, when you do the contract for the Bay d'Espoir Highway, if it is possible to take say a quarter or a half a kilometre from what is being done on the Bay d'Espoir Highway to attend to that place going into St. Alban's? It is really, really bad; there are no two ways about it. It is deteriorating to the point where it is almost impassable. A bus goes over it everyday to bring kids from St. Alban's down to Milltown. If you could look at that I would appreciate it. If it cannot be done, then that is fine too, but if you can, I would very much appreciate you having a look at it.

MR. TAYLOR: All right, we will have a look at it. As you know, the contract was awarded down there.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I understand that, and I appreciate that.

MR. TAYLOR: We will have a look and see if there is anything able to be done, whether it is normal -

MR. LANGDON: It is in the same area.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: That is it for me.

CHAIR: Mr. Sweeney, do you have anything else?

MR. SWEENEY: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I move adjournment.

MR. ORAM: So moved. Moved for adjournment.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.