May 2, 2007
GOVERNMENT SERVICES
The Committee met at 7:00
p.m. in the Boardroom at the West Block.
CHAIR (Mr. Oram): Order,
please!
First of all, thanks folks
for coming tonight. It is good to
have everyone here. Just a couple
of things before we start. I guess
we have to take care of some business in terms of electing a Chair.
We will do that now, first.
Does anybody want to vote
for me? I hope this does not
happen in October.
MR. FORSEY:
I nominate Paul Oram, MHA for Terra Nova.
CHAIR:
Okay, and a Vice-Chair as well. We
are going to need a Vice-Chair. We
already have one, right? We
already have one. Okay, fair
enough.
Before we carry on we want
to have everyone introduce themselves. By
the way, you have to press the talk button to speak and then when you are
finished speaking just press the talk button again and the thing will go off.
I will ask the folks on my
left to do their introductions first of all, with your name and your district,
please.
MR. ANDERSEN: Wally
Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.
MR. FORSEY:
Clayton Forsey, MHA for Exploits.
MS E. MARSHALL:
Beth Marshall, MHA for Topsail.
MR. DINN:
John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.
MR. LANGDON:
Oliver Langdon, MHA for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.
MR. SWEENEY:
George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.
CHAIR:
Okay, and to my right, please.
MR. BOWLES:
Ron Bowles, Assistant Deputy Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.
MR. COOMBS:
Robert Coombs, Deputy Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.
MR. HICKEY:
John Hickey, MHA for the great district of Lake Melville, Minister of Labrador
Affairs and Minister of Transportation and Works.
MR. HEALEY: Keith
Healey, Assistant Deputy Minister of Strategic Corporate Services,
Transportation and Works.
MR. SALTER:
Dave Salter, Director of Communications, Department of Transportation and
Works and Labrador Affairs.
MR. MERCER:
Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister of Transportation.
MR. MOORES:
Weldon Moores, Assistant Deputy Minister of Works.
MR. BYRNE:
John Byrne, Acting Director of Finance, Works Services.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
I think we normally start
off with the minister having an opportunity to have a few words.
MR. HICKEY:
Mr. Chairman, we will be starting with the Department of Labrador and
Aboriginal Affairs and then we will let those officials go.
Then we will go to the bigger piece, which is Transportation and Works.
CHAIR:
Okay. We are going to call the
first head, which is 1.1.01.
CLERK: Subhead
1.1.01.
MR. HICKEY:
I have an opening comment, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR:
Go right ahead, Mr. Minister.
MR. HICKEY:
As the Minister for Labrador Affairs, I am pleased to appear before you to
discuss the Estimates of the Labrador Affairs branch of the Department of
Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.
Virtually all of the
department=s
activities, including those of which the department is designated, such as
land claim negotiations and implementation and the Northern Strategic Plan
implementation, involve close collaboration with one or more provincial public
entities. Many also involve
Aboriginal groups, governments and the federal government.
With the exception of
small budget initiatives, including the Air Food Lift Subsidy, Combined
Councils of Labrador subsidy, Labrador trails grooming subsidy and the
Williams Harbour air subsidy, the activities of the Labrador Affairs are
essentially advisory in nature and reflective of essential agency more so than
a program delivery agency.
For the fiscal year
2007-2008, the major initiatives are identified in the Grants and Subsidies
where there is an increase of spending of some $555,000, bringing the total
for Grants and Subsidies to $855,000. This
is comprised of two (inaudible) statements, the Combined Councils of Labrador
subsidy transferred to the Department of Labrador Affairs from Municipal
Affairs, $100,000; Williams Harbour air subsidy, $30,000 transferred from
Transportation and Works. There is
a one-time capital investment of $275,000 for the Labrador Winter Trails.
Finally, there is a $150,000 increase in the trail grooming grants.
I am now available, Mr.
Chairman, to discuss the details of the Estimates at your convenience.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
I guess we will start with
Mr. Andersen.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Thank you.
I am not going to get into
great detail into the subheads but there are questions that pertain to
Labrador that I wanted to ask. Also,
the Member for Cartwright-L=Anse
au Clair got called away, her mother is having surgery.
She has gone to the hospital. So,
I was unable to track down the questions that she wanted to ask but I am sure
that she will raise them later on in the House.
The first question,
minister, in the Labrador initiative strategy that you outlined there was $1.6
million for coastal communities to offset the high cost of diesel generated
electricity in these communities. No
doubt, a great, great initiative and one that is welcomed by all people.
The concern that I have is, I have gotten several calls from business
owners because, from what I can understand, they do not quality.
Now, the business owners in these small and isolated communities are
the largest employer and, in some cases, the sole supplier.
You know offhand, being someone who has worked and travelled Labrador
extensively, that the cost to run a small business on the North Coast of
Labrador is far more expensive for heat and lights than a large business in
probably the Upper Lake Melville area and Labrador West.
Would government consider
looking at something to help the business owners in these small communities to
offset their high costs?
MR. HICKEY:
First of all, MHA Andersen, let me say this, the initiative that our
government put forward, certainly - as you can well appreciate - is
unprecedented.
Over the years we have
realized, I guess, for those of us who live in Labrador, that the cost for
electricity in the coastal communities is significant.
Presently, our plan forward, through the initiatives of the Northern
Strategic Plan, is to look at the - this time now, this year, this Budget, was
to look at residential customers.
I think what we have to
understand about the Northern Strategic Plan is that this is not just a
one-time document. This is going
to be a living document that will be updated each and every year.
There will be new initiatives added on.
There will be opportunity to review the plan, to review the feelings of
the people on the Coast of Labrador and, indeed, the people of Labrador
generally. We will, as we go
forward into the future, be looking at these types of initiatives.
Right now, this year, we wanted to touch the ordinary folk, the
residents, and I think, certainly from the reviews that we have received, from
the feedback we have received, that this has been a very generally
well-accepted and, indeed, recognized by groups like the Combined Councils of
Labrador and mayors from the different communities throughout Coastal
Labrador. This initiative is a
good start, it is a step in the right direction.
Certainly, Wally, I think as we move forward we will be reviewing these
types of initiatives. Certainly,
we fully realize the costs incurred to businesses on the North Coast and South
Coast of isolated communities in Coastal Labrador.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, as I said, it is good news. It
is welcomed news, and I guess one will have to wait and see.
Some figures I am given by different people, now that the federal
government offsets Natuashish to the tune of $3 million to offset their hydro
costs - I am hoping that is incorrect because if it costs $3 million to offset
the community of Natuashish, if we look at the five Aboriginal communities on
the North Coast and on the South Coast, then (inaudible) but, no doubt, a good
start. Again, anything that can be
done by you and your department and government to look at, in some way,
probably not as much as what the people (inaudible), in some small way if you
could find some way to alleviate the high cost, certainly would be tremendous.
The second question,
minister - again, one I will be asking in the House, as well as here, and I
mentioned to you before, is that you outlined the rates for the ferries and
the freight hauls in the Province. The
only freight rates that were not mentioned - and I know that it takes a lot of
work to get it done - were long-haul freights for the North Coast of Labrador.
Again, no doubt, you know just as well as I do that these people depend
upon the marine service more so than anyone else in the Province to get their
goods in. As you know, probably 90
per cent of the goods and services come on the long-haul freight, and with the
closing down of Lewisporte Wholesalers these people have to deal with other
companies. What I am told at the
present time on the Island, a lot of times, is that when people bid, or when
people solicit business for the best price to buy their goods and services,
many times the cost to ship it is included.
Again, with the navigation
season very close, and the importance to the North Coast of Labrador, do you
think that some time in the near future you will be able to announce the
long-haul rate?
MR. HICKEY:
My answer to this is very simple. When
I became the Minister of Transportation and Works, one of the first things I
asked my officials to do was to review the freight rates in Coastal Labrador.
That was before we had touched anything else.
What was, I guess, discovered when we started doing our first run at
the analysis was, we had found in many, many cases, for many, many years, that
the freight rates in certain cases, certain categories, were very much higher
than they should be. For instance,
I do not have the exact figures here with me on the detail but I do know one
that came to mind was a twenty-foot container going from Goose Bay to Rigolet,
and I think that was over $600. We
looked at it, and we reduced that by some $444.
We looked at a number of them.
What we did was, we went
immediately - and, of course, that was when we released some of those figures.
The passenger fares were something else, and we looked at that and we
reduced some of those. We looked
at the rates from the communities of Norman=s
Bay, Williams Harbour and Black Tickle, and these communities, and we reduced
those fares. We looked at the
fares on the Apollo crossing the Straits.
Of course, our objective here was road equivalency, obviously, so the
ones that were above road equivalency, when it came to passenger cars and
that, we reduced to road equivalency. The
ones that were below road equivalency, we kept where they were.
For instance, Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Lewisporte did not see a
drastic increase, because if we had to go through road equivalency people
would have been paying $1,400 for a round trip between Goose Bay and
Lewisporte.
Now, there is a second
piece of this that we are going to be doing, that we have already started
inside the department, and that is the commercial aspect of the rates.
We are going to be reviewing that.
We are going to be reviewing, obviously, the long haul.
It is a valid point and it is something that we will certainly take
under consideration to ensure that we give the (inaudible), but I suspect as
we go forward, on a go-forward basis, as we review the rates and as we do our
analysis inside the department, that we will see further improvements.
At least that is my hope and my wish, but again we will have to wait
until the analysis is done.
As far as the scheduling
of the service, we are still going to operate out of Lewisporte the same as we
did last year. We have no plans on
changing any of that. I realize,
though, that the communities on the North Coast of Labrador, the businesses
there, they are obviously looking now at: How do we get our goods to come to
the North Coast? - and, of course, they are obviously looking for suppliers.
As that unfolds and we have knowledge as to where they are getting
their goods, that will also play a role.
We are trying to put rates
down to where they should have been for many years.
It is a huge piece, as you can well appreciate.
We are dealing with everything from fifty-three foot containers,
tractor trailers, right down to pallets, right down to basically small items,
so there is a large spectrum that we have to investigate.
Like I said, we started
that review April 1 and it is a large piece of work.
I cannot really tell you when it will be completed.
The only thing I will say to you is that it will be completed as
quickly as we can get it completed and the analysis done.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, the other part is that for quite a long period of time now the
people on the North Coast were very skeptical about roads into the North
Coast, and certainly there was very little voice coming forward for roads over
the years. Now, recently, there is
a change, particularly in the area of Makkovik, for Rigolet and Postville.
It all has to start somewhere. I
know that the community of Rigolet, with correspondence from myself and from
the Nunatsiavut Government, the Council of Rigolet has the blessing of the
Nunatsiavut Government to seek funds for a feasability study.
The same as any major mining operation or road that is going to be
built, there is a feasability study that needs to be done.
Do you think anywhere in
the near future that your government might look at the possibility of the road
from North West River to Rigolet - money for the feasability study?
MR. HICKEY:
Let me say this, Wally, and you know this as well as I do, we have a new
government in Nunatsiavut which controls the communities from Rigolet to Nain,
and we have no intention of negotiating with a community.
As I told your brother Tony, when we were in Nunavut, when he asked me
the question, I said: Look, until your government, until we, as a government -
I, as a minister - get some correspondence from William Andersen III and the
Nunatsiavut Government, that they are willing to sit down and talk about these
types of issues - and I can tell you to date I have not received any
correspondence in that regard - then we will not be moving forward with roads
on the North Coast of Labrador.
Having said that, I
certainly believe - I have always believed - that the people on the North
Coast of Labrador should have a road network connecting them.
I think the time is right. The
Land Claims for Nunatsiavut have been settled, they have their own government,
but I can only say this to you: We will need to see some overtures.
I can also tell you that
senior officials with the Nunatsiavut Government, certain senior officials
with the Nunatsiavut Government, have made comments to the fact that they are
not planning on looking at any roads to the North Coast of Labrador, and have
no desire; so we have been getting mixed messages, there is no question about
it.
As I told Tony, and as I
tell you, if the Nunatsiavut Government wants to move forward with this
particular initiative then I would suggest that William Andersen III, as the
President of the Nunatsiavut Government, put pen to paper and certainly
indicate his government=s
direction. Then we will see where
it goes from there.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Again, just to be clear, you are saying that if the Nunatsiavut Government
comes out in support with these communities for a road that you will sit down
and talk with them?
MR. HICKEY:
Absolutely, no question.
In my former life as the
Mayor of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, I supported the opportunity for road networks
to the North Coast of Labrador. When
I was President of the Combined Councils of Labrador, I supported those types
of initiatives, and I support those types of initiatives today, but we are in
a very much different political climate today in Northern Labrador than we
were back in 1990-1991.
Certainly, from my
perspective, yes, but we will need to see a letter with the intention from the
Nunatsiavut Government on how they want to move forward, how they would like
to cost-share such an initiative. I
think there is general interest out there, certainly in the private sector,
with the development of a mine, with the uranium exploration, possibly a
uranium mine maybe somewhere down the road, some of these initiatives.
Yes, it would be a good
initiative and I would certainly be willing to sit down and talk with the
Nunatsiavut Government.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, another great concern, again particularly for the people on the
North Coast, is the issue of Canada Post, which is run by the federal
government. Again, tonight, in
front of the officials, I want to give the same example, that the North Coast
of Labrador that I represent is considered to be in the northern division.
You do up two packages - a
water bottle. You get two, you do
one up, and you get another one and do it up again.
You walk into the post office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and the one
that you ship to Vancouver Island through parcel post, Canada Post, you can
ship for basically one-third the cost to ship it to the North Coast of
Labrador.
Minister, where people
depend upon Canada Post as a bank, a drugstore, a hardware store, and, for a
lot of people, a grocery store, I know that I have lobbied the government over
the years to try and change the strategy.
Recently, we met with
Canada Post in Ottawa, with the federal MP, Todd Russell.
I am asking you - because I am sure that many of your officials have a
lot of correspondence that was done previously - would you, on behalf of the
people on the North Coast of Labrador, take up that issue with the federal
government, through Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs?
I have talked with Minister Ottenheimer from Intergovernmental Affairs,
I have asked Minister Rideout from Aboriginal Affairs, and they have agreed to
do correspondence, but I am asking you, as Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal
Affairs, would you also take up that cause as well for the people on the North
Coast?
MR. HICKEY:
Wally, it is like this: As a Labradorian, I will pick up whatever cause I have
to pick up for the people of Labrador, and that includes the North Coast of
Labrador. That has been my track
record in my years of politics, and it will be my track record going forward,
so let there be no mistake about that.
This issue has been a
long-standing issue, and I know you have had your say on it.
It has been discussed with the federal government.
It was discussed with the previous Liberal government.
My good friend and your good friend, Hank Shouse, sat on the postal
committee and this was an issue that has been, but we have not seen the
political will on the Ottawa end, both by the former Liberals and I have not
seen, to date, any progress from the Conservatives up there, to want to move
in that direction.
The only thing I will say
to you, and my deputy here will ensure, is that as we correspond with the
federal government this will be articulated to them at every opportunity.
It was discussed with Minister Hearn in a meeting I held last year in
Ottawa. He did not seem to know
much about it at that particular point in time, but certainly it was an issue
because Winston and I have been talking to people on the North Coast of
Labrador. It is a valid point you
are making. It is something that
should be corrected, and I certainly have no problem in continuing to lobby on
the part of the people of the North Coast of Labrador.
Having said that, we are
still maintaining a food lift subsidy. I
think we put in another $100,000 through the Northern Strategic Plan.
We are now at $400,000, the most that we have ever seen in the Air Food
Lift Subsidy, because we understand the cost of goods and services to the
people of the North Coast of Labrador.
We have, again, lowered
the transportation freight rates. We
are hoping that the businesses on the North Coast of Labrador takes that
savings that they are getting on freight and transfers this over to the
consumer because there is no question about it, I have spent a good many
nights in every community on the Coast of Labrador and I have been into every
store there, and there is no question that the price of food on the North
Coast of Labrador is just absolutely outrageous.
It has been blamed, in the past, because of high freight rates.
That was the excuse. Well,
we have done something about the freight rates.
So I am going to be very interested now to see if that savings on
freight can be, has been or will be in the future, transferred to the pockets
of the ordinary citizens in the communities on the North Coast of Labrador.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Mr. Chair, if you want to cut in and give someone else a chance.
I will not hog the floor. I
have more, unless someone else wants to -
CHAIR:
Well, we can do that. We can just
check and see if there is somebody else who wants to speak before you, or we
can continue.
Mr. Forsey.
MR. FORSEY:
Wally can carry on. He is doing a
good job.
CHAIR:
Anyone else?
Okay, Wally, carry on.
We are happy enough.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, the importance of 911, particularly for the coastal communities, is
there anything in the plans to bring in the service of 911 to -
MR. HICKEY:
Yes, we are going to take a look at the whole issue of 911 right across
Rob, do you want to make
any comment on that particular point from the business perspective?
MR. COOMBS:
Yes, minister.
There is a commitment in
the Northern Strategic Plan to examine the potential for a 911 system on the
Coast of Labrador. That will be
undertaken by the Emergency Measures. Ron?
MR BOWLES:
That is correct. That is right,
yes.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, I know that the federal government is in the process of - or has put
in some funds for housing. Nowhere,
I guess, is there a need for housing more than on the North Coast of Labrador.
I have always said that, I did not feel that Newfoundland and Labrador
Housing was the way to go on the North Coast.
In the communities of
Hopedale and Postville, we do not having a housing shortage.
We have had a housing crisis now - I think in 2000 I convinced the
provincial government to build an additional thirty houses over three years,
over and above when they would build.
Does government, through
Labrador Affairs, have any plans or have there been any discussions to look at
probably doing something with the Nunatsiavut Government to -
MR. HICKEY:
Yes. Let me say this on that.
Housing is a very, very important issue in all Aboriginal communities.
We have, certainly, needs on the North Coast of Labrador, we have needs
in
Having said that, we do
have some funds. I will get Rob to
speak to the details of that, but as I understand it right now, there is some
disagreement between the Nunatsiavut Government and the federal government on
the whole issue of housing for the North Coast.
We have had dialogue
between the department and the Nunatsiavut Government.
I can only say this, I fully agree that the need is there.
I fully agree there is a responsibility on the North Coast of Labrador
to get more housing done out there, but I understand that this dispute now has
been going on for some months.
You might want to give
more detail. I know that you have
been doing some work on that, Rob. You
may just want to give a little more detail as to exactly where it is today.
MR. COOMBS:
Yes, minister, you are correct. It
is coined as off reserve Aboriginal housing and it is actually handled through
our Aboriginal Affairs branch, who is involved in it through the provincial
side. There is $8.3 million that
is here as block funding for extra housing.
The issue at hand, the
minister addressed. The detail of
it is that under the terms of the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement, there
is a detail of how the consultation with the federal and provincial
governments should be undertaken. The
issue at hand has to do with: How do you tease out of the block funding an
amount that is appropriate for the needs of the various Aboriginal communities
and what should be the mechanisms by which the Nunatsiavut Government, in
particular, gets its share? This
agreement is under the implementation under the Land Claims Agreement and what
that amount is. Discussions are
ongoing.
The latest information I
have is that officials from the Nunatsiavut Government, the Province and the
federal government are going to sit down and try to resolve the issue, in very
quick fashion, as the need is - as the minister indicated, it is not a great
need, it is a crisis need. So the
hope is that it will be resolved very shortly.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Let me say this, I did not have the opportunity before, but congratulations on
your appointment to Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.
I wish you well.
I am certainly aware of
the conflict. It goes back, I
guess, to the Land Claims, where the federal government were supposed to
negotiate with the Nunatsiavut Government prior to the dispersion of the
(inaudible) funds.
The monies passed down
comes from the federal government, I know are to be disbursed by the Province,
but the question I want to know: Has the Province had any discussions of
putting in some of their own money to alleviate the housing crisis in these
communities, should the funding from the federal government not cover -
MR. HICKEY:
Let=s
be frank here. Obviously, the
responsibility for housing lies with the federal government.
Certainly, from our perspective, through the departments, we expect the
federal government to come to the table and we expect to get these issues -
but, you know, when I hear correspondence - I saw a letter the other day, I
believe it was from Toby, where basically we are talking we may be going to
court over this. So, if we get
into a court case, these funds and these opportunities could be held up for a
while.
We want to ensure, first
and foremost, that the federal government - whose responsibility it is to the
Land Claims process and to these Aboriginal communities that they are really
responsible for - live up to their commitments.
From our perspective, we will be working with the Nunatsiavut
Government and we will be working with the federal government to try to get
some resolve for this so that we can move this forward and we can get
construction. We believe there is
a significant amount of money there. The
Nunatsiavut Government, obviously, with some of the revenues that they will be
receiving from Voisey=s
Bay, revenue sharing from other developments on the North Coast, certainly
there may be opportunities for some of those funds also.
The bottom line, I guess,
Wally, is that we will continue, at this particular juncture, to push the
federal government to get this issue settled with the Nunatsiavut Government
so we can get on with construction. We
know the need is great. As the
deputy said, we have had crisis in housing on the North Coast of Labrador for
many, many, many years and we understand that full well.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, can you, I guess in a nutshell, sum up where we stand with 5 Wing
Goose Bay?
MR. HICKEY:
Well, I can only say this, 5 Wing Goose Bay is a major fall for me and has
been a major fall for twenty years, for my time in politics.
At the present time, you know and I know what we have been promised and
committed to. We have commitments
from the Prime Minister, we have commitments from Minister O=Connor,
the Minister of National Defence, we have commitments from Minister Hearn.
I have had several meetings in Ottawa, very early in my mandate as a
minister, to discuss these issues.
We fully expect the
commitment that the Prime Minister made to Premier Williams, and to our
government, is going to be lived up to. 5
Wing Goose Bay was a number one priority; certainly, I think in the top five
priorities of our government overall. It
was in our Blue Book commitment. We
expect to see 650 troops on the ground. We
expect to see a UAV Squadron in Goose Bay.
I can tell you that we are also exploring with the civil aviation
sector. Right now, I am in
consultation with a number of private sector companies that have shown great
interest in Goose Bay. I am in
constant contact with the union. As
a matter of fact, I met with the union here in St. John=s
just last night. We had some
meetings here.
It is certainly a large
fall for me. It is foremost on my
mind. I fully understand that
there are 350 unionized men and women at 5 Wing Goose Bay.
I fully realize the impact that the closure of that base would have on
the economy of Goose Bay, on the Towns of Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Northwest
River. The only thing I can say to
you, we are now waiting the outcome, or the release of the ACanada
First@
defence plan. It is a major
document that the federal government has said will etch out our role in the
Canadian military into the future.
We believe there are great
opportunities in the unmanned air vehicle aspect of this.
I am having talks at a number of different levels, with different
companies and organizations. Although
I will not make much comment on that further here now, I will say this, we are
having success on a number of other different fronts.
I am pleased with, and that the Union of National Defence Employees are
very pleased with some of the progress that we are seeing certainly on the
other fronts.
Let me make myself clear,
we are committed, Premier Williams is committed, our government is committed,
has been right from day one - no other Premier in the history of the Province
of Newfoundland and Labrador has talked about, has championed at every
opportunity 5 Wing Goose Bay, and we will continue to do that.
We think there is a large role for the Canadian military to play in
Goose Bay. We have $1 billion
piece of infrastructure there. We
think there are great opportunities there and we certainly are going to keep
the federal minister and the federal government=s
toes to the fire when it comes to the issues of 5 Wing Goose Bay.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, another pressing issue for the residents on the North Coast of
Labrador - and I wrote the Minister of Environment six months ago.
I understand they asked one of my colleagues to ask a question in the
Estimates, I think it was last night or this morning, but I did not get a
chance to get the full answer that he was giving.
That is, when I wrote a letter to the Minister of Environment regarding
the fuel tank inspections, I not only asked for an extension, but if there was
a way that something could be done to help alleviate the cost.
Again, for the members
here, we do not have any inspectors who are qualified inspectors on the North
Coast to inspect the fuel tanks. If
someone in Nain wanted a fuel tank inspection, they would have to pay the $748
airline ticket, plus the accommodations, plus the meals, plus the installation
fee.
I understand that
government has said something, that they will work with the Combined Councils
to alleviate the problem. Could
you elaborate a little further on that?
MR. HICKEY:
We are very much familiar with this whole issue of fuel tanks on the North
Coast of Labrador. I think it was
our government that granted the extension to the people on the North Coast of
Labrador. We understand the
challenges. We understand the
challenges up there, obviously, to try to regulate such a - but we also see
the need that we have to ensure that, from an environmental perspective, there
are ways and means that we.... Some
of those tanks, as you well know, are there a long time and need to be changed
out. The inspection process is
obviously an issue. In my role as
the minister, and our department, we will certainly work with whomever to try
to ensure that the mandate that is required as far as the change of these
tanks does happen. We will try to
work with the communities, and indeed the Combined Councils of Labrador is one
entity that we certainly will be - you know, we have a great relationship with
the Combined Councils. I have a
great relationship with the Combined Councils, so I look forward to working on
all of those issues as we move forward into the future.
MR. ANDERSEN:
I think it was after I wrote the minister that he announced the extension, so
I was pleased that he responded to my call.
MR. HICKEY:
The only thing I can say to that, Wally, is this: This has been an issue that
has been up there for many years. You
may have called for it, fair enough, but I would like you to know that it is
this government that is going to look at doing something about it.
MR. ANDERSEN:
At the time that it was implemented, it was very late in our mandate.
As a matter of fact, I think it was at the close of our mandate.
Again, yes, I did write the minister and he responded to me.
MR. HICKEY:
As we have responded, Wally, to many needs.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Yes, and I hope they will continue to respond.
MR. HICKEY:
We will continue, absolutely.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Because certainly, Minister, I will be asking the questions.
The other thing is a
federal matter, but it would be one for your people in Labrador and Aboriginal
Affairs as it relates to the EI program. On
Wednesday of next week myself and the MP, along with some other people, will
be meeting with Monte Solberg. Again,
myself and a good friend of ours,
Now, plant workers are
pretty well taken care of, Minister, in that their EI usually carries them
through until such a time as the plants open, but today I think there are only
three fish harvesters in my riding who are able to continue drawing their EI,
and I think they have one more cheque.
The point I made to these
people is that we hear of fishermen on the Island, when ice conditions get
severe, they extend EI benefits, which I agree with 100 per cent.
Yet, when they take to their boats, when the ice moves out, we still
have fishermen on the North Coast of Labrador, where you can drive out on a
Ski-Doo and say, when the ice moves out of here in two months=
time, this is where I will put my char nets.
You drive through Harmony Run in Nain, where there is three or four
feet of ice, and you say, in two months=
time, when the ice goes out, this is where we will fish for our scallops.
I am asking you, as
Minister of Labrador Affairs, through your staff, if there is anything that
you can do as well to push the federal government to try and see some light on
the circumstances. As their EI
benefits run out, those who choose to be fishermen will remain fishermen on
the North Coast of Labrador.
Granted, we have done very
well over the last number of years with Voisey=s
Bay and other development, and with our storm quarries, but in every other
place we have fishermen, and a lot of those have very little education.
They are qualified to do what they do best.
We honestly and truly
believe, because of the geographic location we live in, for probably an extra
$50,000 a year, the federal government should extend EI benefits to fish
harvesters on the North Coast of Labrador until mid to late June.
Again, on behalf of the
fishermen, I am asking you: Would you and your department lobby to do what you
can to, I guess, make that a reality?
MR. HICKEY:
As I said earlier, Wally, we will lobby if it is in the best interest of the
people in the communities on the North Coast of Labrador, the individuals and
fishermen. We will do whatever we
can to lobby the federal government, but this is not an issue that came up
yesterday. This is an issue that
has been there for a long time, and I am sure, with the relationship that our
present Member of Parliament has with Ottawa, that he will probably have great
success getting that onto the radar screen.
For my part, I will
continue also to push it forward. It
is a valid question, and there is a valid answer as to why the federal
government should consider some of these benefits to fishermen on the North
Coast of Labrador, so we will put our best foot forward, Wally, as we do on
all files, to ensure that the federal government understands some of the
issues that are out on the North Coast of Labrador.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, the last question I will ask you tonight on Labrador Affairs is
probably a bit of an emotional one.
I went through the
Northern Strategic Plan, which is a lot of good news, tremendous good news,
for Labrador. Granted, some things
that I would have liked to have seen there maybe were not there, but then
again that is my job as an Opposition to voice my concerns as to some of the
things I feel should have been there.
One thing in the Budget
and in the Northern Strategic Plan that I did not hear - now, maybe it is in
there somewhere - was additional monies, or maybe not even monies but ways to
end the suicides that plague our young Aboriginal people on the North Coast of
Labrador. I heard nothing in the
Budget for initiatives to try and find ways and means to deal with it.
I guess it is not a question of money, because probably money is not
the answer, but to form some form of strategy to put things in place to stop
it, because far too many have gone. That
is something that I would like to have seen addressed.
Now, Minister, maybe it is
there somewhere and I have not seen it, but that is something that I would
like to see government move forward on probably more so than any other issue
that I have raised here tonight.
MR. HICKEY:
Let me say this, Wally: We fully understand the plight, and we understand that
many of those young people on the North Coast of Labrador have taken their
lives. I know their families, and
in many cases I know them too, so let me say this: It is certainly something
that is on my radar screen.
When I look at the
community of Natuashish right now, and the neglect that has been put in that
particular community, the fact that we have forty kids in Ontario, and the
fact that there are another twenty slotted to go, is not acceptable to me as
the Minister of Labrador Affairs. It
is not acceptable to our Premier - Premier Williams is very much aware of it -
it is not acceptable to the Minister of Health, and it is not acceptable to
our government.
I am now working, and have
been for some time, with the Innu nation.
Daniel Ashini and I met just last week, when he met with Premier
Williams, and this issue was discussed. It
is a large issue. It is not an
easy issue to deal with. We have
put funds in place for suicide prevention.
I think if we look, some $70,000 has been slotted under the Grants and
Subsidies part of the Northern Strategic Plan for Aboriginal suicide
prevention initiatives. Just this
week we gave - as a matter of fact, on Monday morning, Bonnie delivered a
$10,000 cheque to the Metis so that they, too, can look at communities on the
South Coast to ensure that we do not lose any more of our young people.
We have many, many
challenges, social challenges, on the North Coast of Labrador, and it is our
wish, our desire, to work with the communities, to work with the Nunatsiavut
Government, and to improve the present situation.
Let me say this for the
record: This issue certainly is something that is very close to my heart and
very close to me as far as having known some of the families and some of the
individuals who have taken their lives - young men, young women, and in many
cases just youth. That is why we
are bolstering some of the things on the North Coast of Labrador, like the
travel subsidies, so kids can get out and compete in competitions and sports.
That is why we have put the cultural subsidy in there, to again give
kids the opportunity to get out of their communities, to see and to express
themselves.
The auditorium in Happy
Valley-Goose Bay, on which we will be starting construction, certainly tenders
will be going out there, I hope, in the not-too-distant future, so that we can
improve the arts. When we look at
the North Coast of Labrador and we look at the Labrador Creative Arts
Festival, it is just a tremendous time in which these small communities and
youth and kids can come in and partake in this.
It is a huge issue, Wally,
and let me say this: You are passionate about it, I know, but let me say that
you are no more passionate about it than John Hickey; I can tell you that.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Minister, I am not saying this to criticize, but I know that they travel out,
which is good, and they get a chance to showcase the arts of different things:
music, you name it. That is fine
and it is good, but what happens is, these suicides happen right in our
communities. If we could start
looking at maybe - I know there is an initiative here now with infrastructure.
As a matter of fact, I have two proposals in to Minister Byrne, which
he is going to look at in the next couple of days, where the communities have
put aside monies from the trust fund to begin to build an arena.
I think a big step in dealing with some of the social problems that we
face in the communities is a lack of facilities within the community to do
things. They are at home and they
are among the best. In many cases
they are the best when they travel outside of other communities, but I
honestly believe that the time has come to begin looking at right where it
happens and why. Probably one of
the biggest reasons is the lack of sports facilities.
I know, personally, that
two weeks ago walking down a street in Hopedale, three young boys came up to
me and said: Can we have an outdoor rink?
When you look at, I guess around different parts of the Province, and
after spending eighteen years with minor hockey, to hear some people say:
Well, boy, we are going to cut down now. We
do not have to drive that thirty minutes to get to hockey anymore, to host an
event.
So, again, I hope under
that new infrastructure program, through your department, that every effort
will be made, and I ask people to put their requests forward.
I know they have to come up with ways and means to maintain them, but
it seems to have started. I think
at home is a good start. Where we
lose these people in our communities, I think that is where we need to
concentrate.
Through soul searching, I
know that the people themselves have to play a key role as well, but there are
times when they need a lot of help and sometime, not all, but sometimes
financial reasons are behind a lot of it.
MR. HICKEY:
Well, Wally, I just want to say, we are all on the same page here when it
comes to these types of initiatives. Having
said that, too, we can all come with our asks and we can all point this out,
but let me say this, the Nunatsiavut Government has a responsibility now to
their communities.
The Nunatsiavut Government
is going to see, as I said earlier, some major influx of cash and benefits,
both from the federal and private sector for some of these needs.
I think the Nunatsiavut Government has to take responsibility for their
communities and for those needs.
From my role as the
Minister of Labrador Affairs, I can only say to you that we welcome the
opportunity to work with, we welcome the opportunity to look at a plan ahead.
We were involved just recently with the establishment of the Aboriginal
Sport Circle with Trevor Payne, and I attended those meetings, as did my
colleague, Minister Tom Hedderson. They
were very pleased with the response they got from both myself and Minister
Hedderson, and our departments. Will
we have everything built and looked after in every community all in one year?
No. But, as we move forward
with this Northern Strategic plan, these are initiatives - as I said earlier,
this plan has an approved blueprint. It
is a way forward into the future and these issues will be addressed.
Rob, do you want to make
any additional comments there on that particular aspect?
MS COOMBS:
Yes, thank you, minister.
I was just going to add,
Mr. Andersen, that the minister is correct.
What you raised, sports playing a huge role in the community
well-being, is recognized by a lot of people and there are a lot of advocates
for it, including the minister, yourself, and a lot of communities
representatives. I know, in my
capacity as Deputy Minister, the one issue I have from the Aboriginal fear
side in particular is that federal government programs do not cover sports in
terms of Aboriginal communities, and that is a major, major shortcoming.
At my level, I am going to raise these issues.
It is a priority issue for
me in terms of my performance contract with government.
When I meet with my federal, provincial and territorial counterparts I
am going to start to raise this issue because I think the impact on children -
you know, you have been involved in sports in Labrador for a long time
yourself and you know the impact of sports on the physic of children and their
families. The role it can play in
community wellness is immense, but I do not think it has ever been approached
in that context, particularly from a federal government side.
If you look at our Land
Claims agreements, there are articles and chapters for various aspects of
basic services. The holistic
approach to addressing some of these issues, particularly the suicide one,
there is nothing that really treats the problem.
There is a lot of treatment of symptoms, and I think the minister has
touched on a number of initiatives that are being looked at.
If you look in terms of $70,000, it is not a lot but it goes a long
way. I think it is a problem that
is going to be addressed from a whole full spectrum of approaches, and sport
is going to be a big part of that.
The minister mentioned the
Aboriginal Sport Circle because it is going to play a big role.
I know as officials, past ADMs in both Labrador Affairs and Aboriginal
Affairs, to really look at the issue of sports and the impact it can have on
that particular issue in the Aboriginal communities,
because you are correct. The
infrastructure is getting there but I think there is a long way to go.
I think that once it starts to improve we will see the benefit of it
very, very quickly and, hopefully, see a reduction in the incidence of suicide
that we see in all of these communities.
MR. HICKEY:
There is one other issue, Wally, I think we have to address, and that is the
issue of substance abuse right now on the North Coast of Labrador.
Particularly in Natuashish, to say the least, it is frightening from
some of the reports that I am hearing, cocaine abuse, crystal meth.
My God, whoever would have thought that we would see the drug crystal
meth in the small community of Natuashish.
We have alcohol abuse and substance abuse, from that perspective.
I think, as we move forward, these are issues.
I have had discussions
with the Minister of Health. As a
matter of fact, we talked about this just yesterday.
He is very concerned about it. When
we look at some of the other Aboriginal communities - again, similar types,
not probably to the degree we are seeing in Natuashish, but one of the things
that certainly I want us to concentrate on as we move forward is to, one, look
at the substance abuse that are involving some of our youth, but I also think
when we look at the number of social workers required on the North Coast of
Labrador - we just had recent announcements where we are hiring more social
workers. One social worker in
Natuashish is not going to dent the problems in that little community when you
have probably in excess of sixty children who are involved in some sort of
substance abuse.
Then we have to go a
little further and address the issues of mom and dad, because for too long the
practices of the past was to take the kids out, treat them, only to send them
back to the same home where mom and dad had not gotten help, only for them to
relapse back into. I think it is
time that we started putting the cards on the table.
This is not about politics. This
is not about Conservatism or Liberalism. This
is about doing the right thing.
I can tell you right now,
just yesterday morning I met with Health officials here and representatives
from Memorial University. One of
the things that we are exploring right now, and both the deputy minister and
assistant deputy minister are very much involved in this, this is a very
active file, where we are exploring, with Dr. Jong and the Grenfell Health
Labrador Corporation, the opportunity to look at what is happening in
Australia where they are making a new product called opal gas.
Opal gas is a gas that is used to cycle (inaudible) car engines, but
they take out the ingredient which allows a kid to sniff it to get high.
We are actually talking,
and have been now for some time, and working on this with Memorial University.
There is a delegation going to Australia to (inaudible) this further.
We are also talking about producing this gas here in Newfoundland and
Labrador with the opportunity of the new refinery that is coming on stream,
owning Come by Chance. Some of the
investors there have indicated they would like to certainly look at this
opportunity.
So, we are trying our best
to try to address this, but this is a massive issue.
It has been something that has been happening up there.
I worked the Coast of Labrador for twenty-five years with Newfoundland
Hydro and I am fully aware - and I have been in Natuashish, as I have been in
Davis Inlet, and at 2:00 o=clock
in the morning when you see little three year olds out in the streets because
they cannot go home, mom and dad are fighting because of substance issues.
It is sad commentary.
Like I said, this is not
about Liberalism or Conservatism, it is about doing the right thing.
I know Premier Williams is very much aware of this.
He is very concerned about it and he has shown great support for us to
move forward to look at possible solutions.
Wally, on that note, I
just want to say to you here this evening, as one Labradorian to another, I
will certainly work with anybody to improve the lot of those children and
their families because I think we have to look at this from a holistic
perspective of the family. It is a
huge challenge and I look forward to making improvements, seeing improvements,
and championing it wherever I go.
Thanks.
MR. ANDERSEN:
My final comment, because I have also covered the issues through Labrador
Affairs as it relates to transportation in my riding.
Minister, again, the part of the whole suicide would cover the drugs,
the solvent abuse, and as I said, at home, and that meaning too is mom and
dad. I know that the Nunatsiavut
Government has to take the bull by the horns to play the lead role.
In closing, let me say
this, I have talked to various groups across Canada who had done land claims.
One of the first things they found out after they did a land claim is
that provincial and federal governments try to download some things on the
territorial governments once they get their land claims deal.
By doing that, taking away dollars that they need to build
infrastructure that many other communities in different provinces have.
I only hope that it will not happen here with this government and I
certainly hope that it will not happen with the federal government.
I will be honest with you, in some cases we have seen where the federal
government has already began to, I guess, shy away from some of their
responsibilities, saying: Well, you guys now should do this.
If the Nunatsiavut
Government has to go out there and spend a pile of money on infrastructure
which other communities get and enjoy, then the true meaning of a land claims
deal for them will soon fall back. It
has happened elsewhere. Again,
that is a concern that I have and one that, as a member, I will always
address. Again, not saying that
your government will do it, but I hope it never comes to that from the
Province and from the federal government.
Minister, the bottom line is this, if these things start to happen then
the goodwill of the whole negotiating deal and the idea of letting these
people have self-government and self-determination, and if they have to start
using their money to run programs that were previously run by government,
then, as I said, their land claims will crumble and the problems will probably
never, ever get a chance to be resolved.
On that, I say thank you
for answering the questions that I have raised here tonight.
I wish you and your Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs the
best and wish you every success as you move forward.
Minister, it is the best portfolio that government has ever had.
I was honoured to be part of a government that brought it in and,
certainly, I know the feelings that you have in your role in carrying out that
job as the of Minister of Labrador Affairs.
MR. HICKEY:
Thanks, Wally.
My closing note I suppose
is this, as you well know, the Province and the federal government entered
into Land Claims negotiations with the, at the time, Labrador Inuit
Association. My sense of the world
is this, the Nunatsiavut Government - and I will say this, since they have
taken power and since they have started over the last year or so, our
Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs has worked closely with them
because we understand they are in transition.
We understand they have much to learn about this whole issue of
governance and we have stood with them. We
have supported them when it was appropriate to do so and we will continue on
that course.
Having said that, there is
an agreement. We will live up to
our obligations of that particular agreement and what we, as a government,
signed off on. The Department of
Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs will continue to dialogue, support, lobby,
help, do whatever we have to do to improve the lot of the communities and the
Aboriginal people on the North Coast of Labrador, as long as I am the
minister. I think my track record
speaks for itself. We have many
serious challenges, yes, but I think they can be overcome.
I think we are working on these challenges and I think we are making
progress and moving in the right direction.
I thank you for your
questions this evening.
CHAIR:
I think, if I am not mistaken, Mr. Langdon has a question.
MR. LANGDON:
The Conne River Band Council in Conne River is a community that has done a lot
of work and has improved itself considerably over the years.
I can remember in the early days as a boy growing up, but I will not go
into that history because of time. If
I heard correctly - if I did not, then you can correct me - there are probably
twenty people who have left Northern Labrador, gone to Alberta for treatment
and another forty about to go. Are
these figures -
MR. HICKEY:
Forty and twenty.
MR. LANGDON:
Forty and twenty, it was the other way around.
I am wondering, has there
ever been any thought of sending some of those kids to, say, Conne River,
rather than to Labrador? They
might not have everything that is in Alberta but the fact that it is their own
Province, even though it is a different band - I am not sure if there is turf
building. I never hear from Misel
Joe that there is and I am not close to Sheshatshiu or Natuashish in Labrador.
From my observation over the last eighteen years, especially
representing these people, they have come a tremendous long way.
They are a government unto themselves in all the activity that they
have. I am wondering if there has
ever been any consideration in sending some of those kids to
MR. HICKEY:
No. Obviously, when I discuss this
issue I sort of try to take the advice that I get from the elders and from the
leadership of the Innu Nation. I
can say to you that our sense of world is
we want to treat these kids in
So, my sense and my vision
and my mission will be to seek treatment in Labrador where the Aboriginal
leadership, particularly in Natuashish and Sheshatshiu, can be involved in
this treatment. We have had
discussions with Daniel Ashini regarding building more units in which safe
houses - these types of initiatives. We
are working with Health Labrador. We
have a unique set of circumstances in Labrador when it comes to some of these
challenges. I will say to you
though, I know Chief Michael Joe - a very, very wise man.
I always enjoy talking with him, chatting with him.
I think he has a lot to offer.
Having said that, Conne
River has come a long way from what it used to be probably many years ago, but
they are starting to spread their wings, as we say.
They are formulating their own destiny as they move forward.
We are working with Conne River on a number of different fronts.
The Aboriginal Sport Circle is something that, when we met with them,
Conne River was at the table. I
can tell you, Minister Rideout and the Premier both held Aboriginal women=s
conferences. We have hosted those.
We have hosted in Conne River. There
is a relationship that has been building, I must say, probably more so now
than ever before between Conne River and the Innu and the Aboriginal people of
Labrador. I think that is a
positive thing and it is a positive influence.
MR. LANGDON:
Okay. I just have one more
question, Mr. Chair.
CHAIR:
No problem.
MR. LANGDON:
You know what it is like in politics, one leads to another.
Again, a few days ago,
hearing about the number of caribou that have been slaughtered probably on the
southern part of Labrador - I am not sure exactly where.
I know that all governments are trying to protect the herd, it is an
endangered species and so on. How
did this happen? I am not being
critical, John, that is not where I am coming from.
I am just looking for information.
How could these people come across from Labrador, knowing the condition
of the herd and so on, and just slaughter these animals and end up with that?
MR. HICKEY:
Let me say this about that particular issue.
John Hickey, as an individual out of Labrador, has been dealing with
this issue for many years. In my
early days - Wally would remember this - the Mealy Mountain Caribou Herd, I
was one of the founding members of what was called the Labrador East Caribou
Hunters Association at the time. We
had set up sort of a body. It
since has not be active, but at the time we also had a Rob and Gun Club.
At the time, Garfield Warren was the minister of the day and Garfield
gave the licences out - I think Wally was working for Garfield at the time,
probably with Labrador services?
MR. ANDERSEN:
No.
MR. HICKEY:
No? You were not working for
Garfield at the time?
MR. ANDERSEN:
No, I worked for the Labrador stores. I
did not work for Garfield.
MR. HICKEY:
Okay. Anyway, getting back to the
story on that, just so that we don=t
prolong it.
At the time there was a
kill in the Mealy Mountains where Innu people had gone over and killed this
protected herd and Garfield had issued a whole bunch of licenses.
I took every cent out of the Rod and Gun Club and went down and
purchased the licences, went to the steps of the wildlife office, called the
CBC camera crew and burned them on the steps of the wildlife office.
That is how strongly I feel about this caribou herd, and I feel just as
strongly today as I did then.
The problem we face down
there is this, we have a herd of caribou that we have been trying to protect.
When you look at Labrador=s
caribou herds, there are three herds that we want to protect.
We have the Mealy Mountain Caribou Herd to the Southeast of Goose Bay,
we have the Lac Joseph Herd which is over in Labrador West, and then we have
the Red Wine Herd which is sort of in Central Labrador.
These herds are unique and my argument has always been, although we
have the George River Caribou herd which migrates between the Province of
Quebec and Labrador, a large herd - close on 800,000 to 900,000 animals in
that herd - these small herds in Labrador we need to protect, because they are
unique unto Labrador; their whole life cycle is in Labrador.
What happened last week is
just another instance where we have - and we are not sure exactly who they
were, but we are pretty sure that these culprits came out of the Quebec North
Shore. We also know that when it
comes to the Innu, they do not respect any borders between Labrador.
I get calls from Churchill Falls. We
have seen forty-five foot trucks loaded up with caribou heading out.
There is not really a whole lot we can do about it because of the
simple fact that they are permitted to hunt for subsistence hunting, ceremony,
gathering and all of this.
Let me say this, we, this
year, in the Northern Strategic Plan, put some-$70,000 in additional
helicopter time. I had a call from
a wildlife officer, an e-mail really, and he said to me: Minister, for the
first time we finally have a government that is prepared to support us as we
take on some of those issues that we have been fighting for many, many years.
I can tell you, there were years in the past when I remember friends of
mine - like Stu (inaudible) and Douglas Blake from Northwest River and many of
these wildlife officers, Billy Duffett and all those guys that are in Goose
Bay today - could not get the money to get a helicopter to go down and take a
look. Do you know what?
Every time we went down we found poachers.
This year, what we saw - and Frank Philips is the fellow who was there
and gave the interview the other evening, when you look at taking choice parts
of an animal and leaving the rest, it is really the lowest.
Those people have to be the lowest type of scum bags that God put
breath in, because nobody - I can understand someone killing a caribou if you
needed to eat but to do the like of that, it just flies in the face of
conservation.
I will say, I will give
Minister Jackman full credit, he did a tremendous job on researching this,
staying on top of this, and we are going to do something about it.
I thank you for raising
that, because it is a good point. We
are going to keep at it. It is a
huge challenge. We have a large
border down there. It is a lot of
country and only a few animals, yet it is worth protecting for our children
and our grandchildren.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Minister.
MR. HICKEY:
Welcome Eddie.
MR. JOYCE:
I just came from lunch, actually, with the Minister of Tourism.
He took everybody out to lunch.
MR. HICKEY:
Good stuff. That was nice of him.
CHAIR:
All right. Are there any other
questions, first of all?
MR. JOYCE:
I would not mind asking a few as the critic?
CHAIR:
For Labrador?
MR. JOYCE:
Oh, no.
CHAIR:
Okay. We are doing Labrador
Affairs.
Thank you for the debate.
We need a motion to have these headings carried.
Headings 1.1.01. to
2.1.02.
AN HON. MEMBER:
So moved.
CHAIR:
Carried.
On motion, subheads
1.1.01. through 2.1.02. carried.
CHAIR:
Thank you very much.
MR. HICKEY:
Can we take a five minute recess there, Mr. Chair?
CHAIR:
We can, but first of all, I just want to say thank you for that debate and the
questions. We have, I think, two
of the most passionate Labradorians in Labrador.
That is the reason it took so long, which was good, and I think there
was some constructive things done here tonight.
Thank you both for your work, and of course, Mr. Langdon as well.
All right, we will take a
five minute break and be back for Transportation and Works.
Recess
CHAIR: Order,
please!
We are going to deal with
Transportation and Works at this time. I
think it is heading 1.1.01. I
think we probably have to start by introducing everyone again for this one, I
am assuming.
WITNESS: No.
CHAIR:
No, we do not? Okay.
Good. Perfect.
Everybody knows everyone.
Mr. Joyce is here and he
is begging for forgiveness but we are good with that.
First of all, I am going
to give the minister an opportunity with some opening remarks and we will move
forward from there.
MR. HICKEY:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As the Minister
responsible for Transportation and Works I am pleased to appear before you to
discuss the Estimates for the Department of Transportation and Works.
Certainly, I welcome all questions regarding the matters of our
department.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
We are going to start with
Mr. Joyce because I understand he has to leave.
MR. JOYCE:
Yes, I have to leave. I just have
a few things as critic.
First of all, minister,
thank you and your staff for appearing here today.
Just a few of the questions I have concerning, I guess, the overall not
in the Budget (inaudible). I am
sure my colleagues have that.
Would it be possible, and
I am just asking - I can go back to 2005 and even before that - to get a
breakdown of how much money was spent per district in, say, 2000 in the roads
program itself?
MR. HICKEY:
We have it back - in anticipation of your question, I do not have it here with
me but we do have it back to 1949.
WITNESS:
That is the total budget.
MR. JOYCE:
No, no, district by district. I am
just concerned about the Bay of Islands more than anything.
You can forward it to me later, in the next couple of days or
something.
MR. HICKEY:
Go ahead there, Cluney
MR. MERCER:
We have that for eight years going back to 2000.
MR. JOYCE:
Can you forward it to me tomorrow or some day when you have time, just very
briefly to save time on that here?
The other thing is, back
in 2003 -
CHAIR:
Excuse me, Mr. Joyce, just before you go on, do we need to have everyone
announce their name before they speak?
AN HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
CHAIR:
Yes, okay. So, if we could do
that. I saw you were trying
to get some clarity there.
Sorry, Mr. Joyce, go
ahead.
MR. JOYCE:
Back in, just say 2003, and I know there is an increase in funds in some
years, is there anybody in the department who can give us a breakdown on the
cost per kilometre for pavement back in 2002 as compared to now?
MR. MERCER:
It would be possible to do that. It
would take some analysis. One
thing you have to remember is that there are various classifications of the
road system out there, from the very local road to the trunk road, to the
collector road, to the Trans-Canada Highway, and the cost to do each are not
the same because they have different thicknesses of asphalt, they are
different widths and that sort of thing. So
the cost per kilometre would depend on the road classification that you are
doing at the time.
MR. JOYCE:
Could I get that later? I am sure
there is someone in the department - on what it costs, the breakdown per
kilometre and the tenders that were back in -
MR. MERCER:
Well, you would have to go back and analyze the tenders.
It is not something that we do every single year.
MR. JOYCE:
Okay.
MR. DINN:
Can I make a comment on that? I
guess when you are considering that information, distance also is a factor
into the cost of asphalt and paving; how far you are from a source of asphalt.
What I have heard from city officials - and I was at St. John=s
for a while - last year asphalt went up by 40 per cent to have paving done.
It went up 40 per cent from the year before.
So, that is a rough idea of what it is in the St. John=s
area. I have heard statements that
the city had a little over half of what they had done the year before, done
last year.
MR. MERCER:
Yes, Mr. Dinn, that is correct. One
of the biggest factors in determining the cost per kilometre is, in fact, the
size of the project, and not only the size of the project but whether that
project is linear or not. If you
are doing twenty kilometres of linear roadway from point A to point B, with an
asphalt plant set up at the middle, you will get the best price possible.
If you are doing the same volume of work spread over ten different
locations with a kilometre here and a kilometre there, with thirty kilometres
in between them, that work is going to cost a lot more because you have to
mobilize crushers, asphalt plants, equipment, people, and a lot of the costs
goes directly into that. Even if
we were to provide a breakdown on a project by project basis and a road
classification by road classification basis, you would also have to look at:
Were these projects long and linear or were they spread out over a large
geographic area? So, I would
suggest you exercise some caution in looking at anything like that.
MR. JOYCE:
So, it cannot be done or it can be done?
MR. MERCER:
The cost per kilometre by classification of road can be done based on the
history that we have and the bid prices that we have gotten, I have a range of
projects on a given classification of road that is going to vary in cost.
What you can do, understanding that some of these projects were long
and linear, thereby being cheaper than those that were multi-locations, spread
over a larger geographic area, if you were to take the average cost, it might
give you some inclination as to what the cost was in a given year.
MR. JOYCE:
So, it can be done. Thanks for
that. So you will forward me that
information with the Bay of Islands estimates with what was done since 2000 -
MR. MERCER:
What has been done by district since 2000 is easy to do, easy to get for you
because that is already done.
MR. HICKEY:
You are only asking for the Bay of Islands?
MR. MERCER:
Just the Bay of Islands? Yes, it
is already done.
MR. JOYCE:
Okay.
MR. MERCER: In
terms of the other piece that you are looking for, the cost per kilometre.
We would have to go back and look at past year contracts to do that
because that is not something we do on a regular basis.
MR. JOYCE:
Okay.
MR. LANGDON:
Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a question on that, please?
CHAIR:
Okay.
MR. LANGDON:
I know on the Bay d=
Again, I am not as close
to it, Keith, as you guys are, you work with it everyday, but the cost per
kilometre of road to refurbish or blacktop again or whatever the case might
be, in 2006 was way more than it was in 2005.
I recognize that, even though I do not know the dollar figure exactly,
but I can look at the distance that has been paved and refurbished on the road
and see the difference in the length.
MR. MERCER:
Last year, looking at all the classifications of the road combined together
and all the projects, on the cost of a project on a per kilometre basis
overall, it probably increased in the range of 20 per cent to 25 per cent.
If you look at the various
items that increased, the cost of asphalt increased by about 72 per cent to 75
per cent. Some of the crushed
gravel has increased by about 35 per cent because they are fuel related and
the cost of fuel had gone up substantially in the last two or three years.
So it consumes a greater cost in producing the material and placing the
material on the road. Certain
items have gone up substantially but, overall, we saw our prices go up last
year 20 per cent to 25 per cent.
MR. JOYCE:
Thank you for that, Cluney.
How much carry-over was
there from last year to this year in Transportation and Works, including the
federal portion, the federal cost-shared?
Because I am under the understanding that there was one contract
between Corner Brook and Stephenville in which there was about $6 million or
$7 million left over. How much was
left over last year from the tenders that were called and the work then, the
amount, the value that was carried over this year?
MR. MERCER:
If I can find the right spot in the Estimates, I can refer you to it.
It is on page 83 and 84. The
Provincial Roads Program has two components; a current account component,
which is basically maintenance and repair, that is done under contract.
A smaller portion is capital, and that is basically when you are
putting new infrastructure in place.
The total Budget last year
that was initially approved was $60 million under the Provincial Roads
Program. We actually spent a
little over $66 million. So, we
actually did everything that was planned to do and we did more.
MR. HICKEY:
What a minister.
MR. MERCER:
Because we found savings in the department, in other locations, and we
transferred it in there. So we
actually did not have any carry-over work on the provincial program.
MR. JOYCE:
There was no work between Corner Brook and Stephenville last year, not carried
over?
MR. MERCER:
I will get to the second part. So
that is the Provincial Roads Program. The
second part of that is the cost-shared program between the federal government
and the provincial government under the Strategic Infrastructure Fund.
That is at the bottom of page 84. This
program is a $53.6 million program over two years.
Last year was the first year of that.
Some of these projects are very large.
Mr. Joyce, the one you are
referring to on the West Coast was an $8.8 million project.
Some of these projects, because we cash flowed them over two years, we
allocated so much money to be spent last year and so much money to be spent
this year. In fact, the project
that you are referring to was just that. It
was an $8.8 million program. I
think there was $3 million of cash flow for last year and the remaining cash
flow was budgeted for this year. The
project was called late in August.
MR. JOYCE:
How much was spent last year?
MR. MERCER:
There was $6.1 million to be spent this year, it was an $8.8 million contract,
so $2.7 million got spent last year.
Out of the total of $30
million under that program, we actually spent - in accordance to the
Estimates, and these Estimates were provided in February.
When the final numbers came in - I think they are a little higher than
this - they were up around $25 million in total, actually.
So, there was a cash flow of $5 million there.
That $5 million, along with the balance of the program, which was about
$23.5 million to get completed this year.
MR. JOYCE:
In Corner Brook there was a road done up on Massey Drive - I do not know if it
is in this year=s
Budget or last year=s
because I did not know there was any carry over.
How much did that road cost to do, the Massey Drive road?
Are you familiar with that road? I
do not know if it is a carry-over from last year to this year, the extension
from Massey Drive out to the -
MR. MERCER:
I think what you are referring to is the Massey Drive emergency access road.
MR. JOYCE:
No, the extension. The emergency
exit was done. It was the
extension.
MR. MERCER:
Well, I think it was all a part of the one road.
It was started in 2004, I believe.
There was a segment of it done in 2004, 2004-2005, and then another
segment was done last year. I
believe in total there was about $500,000 spent altogether.
MR. JOYCE:
Half a million?
MR. MERCER:
As far as I know.
MR. JOYCE:
Who owns that road right now?
MR. MERCER:
The road was built by the department at the request of the town and Massey
Drive as an emergency access road. Jurisdiction
over the road right now rests with Transportation and Works.
MR. JOYCE:
Do you keep the road? I will ask
you why, because there are a few businesses who want to set up in the area and
they cannot get permission to establish or building permits until someone has
ownership of the road. The town is
concerned about - my understanding is that you guys want to keep ownership and
allow the town to have control of businesses as they set up (inaudible).
MR. MERCER: We
do not desire to have ownership. There
is a -
MR. JOYCE:
There is a dispute with the City of Corner Brook and Massey Drive.
MR. MERCER: There
are issues between the town and Massey Drive and the City of Corner Brook
regarding the intended use of the road and development.
Part of the road skirts the watershed for the City of Corner Brook.
Before the road was built and in the planning stage, the City of Corner
Brook gave their approval on the basis that this would be an emergency access
road and used for that purpose only; not the intention of any development,
certainly along the road and close to the watershed.
When this issue came up
about the town and Massey Drive entertaining applications for development
along the road, then the City of Corner Brook took objection to that.
Basically, what the department said is that until the town and the city
can settle their dispute, we will retain jurisdiction of the road, but we are
not snow clearing it and we are not maintaining it in the summer.
MR. JOYCE:
Yes. I was just asked to ask: Are
all of the announcements made for capital works for road improvements for the
Province? I was concerned.
I was asked to ask about the White Bay area.
There is a section there, five kilometres in Hampden, Jackson=s
Arm and that area. Has all the
money been allocated this year for the capital works?
MR. HICKEY:
No, we do not have all of them. We
still have Liberal districts to announce.
We still have PC districts to announce, but we are hoping to move
forward with these over the course of the next two to three weeks.
MR. JOYCE:
Okay. This is one issue that I
have been raising for a while, and it is the depots are going to remain
closed. Can you tell me how much
it would cost to keep the depots open? Is
it $1.1 million or $1.2 million?
MR. MERCER:
When we did the analysis, before government made the decision to close the
thirteen depots, there was about $2.6 million associated with that initiative.
A part of that was associated with managers who were located at those
thirteen depots. That part of the
initiative was implemented in 2004, and then the staff associated with those
thirteen units were implemented in 2005.
I think there was about
$1.6 million or $1.8 million or so of that $2.6 million associated with the
staff. The remainder was
associated with clerks and supervisors who were (inaudible) the units, but
there was $2.6 million in total.
MR. JOYCE:
My last question, and I thank everybody for indulging me.
I will give you an example, out in Government Services in the Sir
Richard Squires Building in Corner Brook, there are several ministers who have
offices in the building and the letters they wrote back said that they have
permission. Can you show me in the
Budget where the cost is covered in the Budget for that type of - or is it in
the Budget?
For example, Tom Marshall
has an office and that has been approved by Transportation and Works.
That is the letter that we received on it.
Is there anywhere in the Budget where that is covered off or is it just
under Transportation and Works, under the general stuff of the Sir Richard
Squires Building?
MR. MOORES:
Any costs of government buildings are just covered in the general allocations
in the buildings. It is not broken
down on a building by building basis.
MR. JOYCE:
So, it is not broken down. It is
just move in. If there is an
office open and heat and light and whatever, it is just covered under the
general of the building itself, like the Premier=s
office.
MR. MOORES:
I mean, the minister=s
office and my office, you cannot find them in the Budget.
They are all within the same heading.
MR. JOYCE:
Okay.
My last question - and
this is something, I guess, is considered - is the winter snow clearing.
Out our way, especially - and I do not know who made the statement from
the minister=s
office, I think it was one of the PR people or somebody.
They were looking at the high volume areas of traffic.
I am receiving many calls about snow clearing from 10:00 a.m. to 6:00
in the morning. I have received
calls from town councillors in Stephenville who had to catch an airplane, who
had to drive from Stephenville at 3:00 or 4:00 o=clock
in the morning out to Deer Lake. I
know it was not covered off but I do not know if the department would consider
it, because it is a life and safety issue.
It is a big issue. It is an
issue that has been brought to my attention.
From my understanding, it is not in the Budget to have it covered next
year and I do not know if it is too late in the year to look at it or not for
next year, but I can assure you, it is a life and safety issue that I had to
bring up. I ask that the
department and the minister reconsider and see if there is anyway to get it
done.
MR. HICKEY:
We will be reconsidering it.
MR. JOYCE:
Perfect.
MR. HICKEY:
We will be reconsidering this. I
can say to you, Eddie, that we are doing some traffic flow studies on high
volume areas. Certainly, it is my
wish, as the minister, to review this. We
have been collecting some data. We
will have to analyze that data and see where we can go with it from there.
MR. JOYCE:
Well, that is my last question. I
thank everybody for indulging me. Before
I go, minister, I want to recognize the staff out on the Western region and
the hard work that they do for all the towns and helping out the residents
around. I just want to thank the
staff out on the Western region because they are quite a dedicated group who
do what they can to help people out on the Western region.
MR. HICKEY:
Thank you for that, Eddie. I will
say to you, we have some 2,300 employees with the Department of Transportation
and Works. I must say, as a
minister for that department I have been, I think blessed in many ways to have
the experience, which I have at the executive level here with me this evening,
but when I go out into the regions, and I have visited many of the depots - I
could not believe when I went out to some of the depots with some of my
colleagues, and the Member for Exploits will remember this, I was the first
minister to go into many of those depots.
Some guys have been there for thirty-two years and I was the first
minister to go out and talk with them, to congratulate them and to thank them
for the service. When I look at
some of our positions - our snow clearing operators, these people spend a
tremendous amount of time on the road. They
are out there in hazardous conditions and they do an exceptional job for the
people of the Province and for the travelling public.
I thank you for those compliments, Sir.
MR. JOYCE:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Mr. Joyce.
Moving on, Mr. Andersen.
MR. ANDERSEN:
I asked most of my questions but there is one that I want to ask.
It is a touchy subject for me, but it goes back to probably the year
2000 or 2001. It is regarding the
Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund. There
were talks that a government that I was part of had taken $92 million or so
out of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund and put it into general
revenues. I was adamant against it
and I was told that it would never happen.
So, I would like to have it confirmed to me, if the money was taken
from the Labrador Transportation Fund of $92 million and put into general
revenues. If this occurred, when
did it take place? If it did not
take place, I would like to have it confirmed that there was no transfer of $2
million from the Labrador Transportation Fund into general revenues.
MR. HICKEY:
That fund, Wally, is not shared out of the Department of Transportation and
Works, it is shared out of Treasury Board.
MR. ANDERSEN:
Does the fund fall under the Department of Transportation and Works?
MR. HICKEY:
No, it falls under Treasury Board.
MR. LANGDON:
Treasury Board approves it for Transportation and Works or whatever?
CHAIR:
If you could just -
MR. LANGDON:
Oliver Langdon.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
MR. LANGDON:
How does it work? Treasury Board,
I understand how that works. I had
been there for a number of years. They
approve the funds and then it is allocated to the Department of Transportation
and Works, or to Municipal Affairs or whatever, to be spent?
MR. HICKEY:
It is my understanding, it comes out of Treasury Board.
MR. HEALEY:
We apply for funding under that fund through Treasury Board.
MR. LANGDON:
Yes, so that is easy enough to get back.
CHAIR:
Mr. Forsey?
MR. FORSEY:
Not at this time, thank you very much.
CHAIR:
Ms Marshall? Mr. Dinn?
Mr. Langdon.
MR. LANGDON:
Just a couple of questions. The
agreement that government signed with its federal counterpart not too long ago
for $151 million, or whatever that fund (inaudible).
The federal minister was basically saying you could find the money from
the Labrador highway through that agreement that was about to be signed, or
signed or whatever. It did not
happen.
MR. HICKEY:
I will answer that.
MR. LANGDON:
Yes, okay. Let me just carry on.
If that is the case, if
that particular money is to be spent or whatever the case might be, is there
any thought given to spending some of that money on major trunk roads?
I am thinking about, for example, the Bay d=Espoir
Highway. As you would know, there
is a lot of economic activity that is taking place on the highway and the
road, even though it has been paved, say three or four, five years ago, it is
really starting to see its wear. Cluney
would know what I am talking about. Almost
as fast as it is paved, it is being torn up.
All of those trucks are just going over it day in and day out.
As a result of that, we need - like I said in the House, I appreciate
$1 million for the area. If I get
$1, I am appreciative of it. It is
not for me, it is for the people in the region.
I am wondering, probably
not for this year but probably next year, or the following year, whatever, if
there can be some increased funds to do a bit more on the highway because it
is going to be a major trunk road that needs some major upgrading?
MR. HICKEY:
Thank you for the question. I
guess I will take it in two parts. First
of all, it was $175 million which Minister Hearn publicly announced for
infrastructure funding. He also
indicated that funding would be eligible for, for instance, like the
Trans-Labrador Highway.
As far as the federal
government is concerned - obviously, the officials in our department are in
discussion with the federal Transport Canada officials.
As far as the details of this agreement, I will say that - certainly,
the indication left with me from the discussion with Minister Hearn was that
this was infrastructure funds for the Province and it would be our choice as
to how we would like to spend that.
To address the second part
of your question, and I do appreciate your recognition that we did put $1
million down there this particular year. Let
me say this, the mandate of this minister, this department, this Premier and
this government is to improve the road infrastructure of this Province.
Let me also say that we are spending unprecedented amounts.
This year we will be close on $66 million for the road improvements in
the Province. Last year we put in
another $60 million and we will be continuing to make further investment into
the rural infrastructure of this Province.
Projects are certainly
reviewed by the department. They
are looked at on a priority basis. I
think it is fair to say that we have some 9,500 kilometres of road in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That
means if you were to drive it you could go from St. John=s
to Vancouver and you would have enough left to probably go down to California
on the west coast. We have some
800 bridges that we have to maintain. So,
as you can well appreciate, a tremendous amount of road and infrastructure.
We have not seen the
investment in road and infrastructure over a good many years and our plan
forward is to maintain a level between $60 million and $70 million.
My officials have told me that it will take us ten years to bring the
roads on the Island portion of the Province up to an acceptable standard.
We have made great inroads, I believe over the last number of years,
and it is our plan to, again, take an aggressive approach to address the
issues, Oliver, that you are raising here this evening.
I will tell you that we will continue the investment in that section of
highway. We fully realize the
economic benefits and some of the economic opportunities down in that region
of the Province. I think as we
move forward you will see continued investment over the course of the next
number of years.
MR. LANGDON:
There is about 220 kilometres from the Trans-Canada Highway down directly to
Harbour Breton. I am not counting
the trunk roads that go to Hermitage and down Fortune Bay North.
I am not talking about these at all, just the major highway.
I am not confrontational,
that is not my nature. I just
wanted to outline to you the situation. There
is no way - whether Oliver Langdon is the MHA or Minister Hickey, or whatever
the case might be - that $1 million a year on the major trunk road going into
Bay d=Espoir
will ever cut it.
There are, right now as we
speak, and I am down there every weekend - by the way, you have tremendous
staff down there. Murray Drake and
the guys, they fill as many potholes in a week - I have never seen anything
like it, by the way, they just absolutely do work their butts off.
The road itself, the roadbed and so on - there is place right now, and
I have not talked to Cluney or Wayne out in Central because I do not want to
say where the asphalt is going to go on the road because I do not know the - I
would not even dare do that, I have never done that in my life.
But, going down the causeway hill going to Harbour Breton - and that is
a huge hill, as you would know Cluney. It
is one of the most dangerous hills probably in all of the Province and the
pavement on that is gone, g-o-n-e.
I do not know if there any
- even though there are certain areas on the Bay d=Espoir
Highway too, that have potholes in it as big as this table and the boys are
filling it in. If there is anyway
that you can look at doing something with causeway hill for safety and for all
the trucks that go down there, I would appreciate it.
Like I said, I do not want it done for me personally, but just for the
safety of the trucks that go down there because those tractor-trailer trucks
are on the go night and day. It is
a big hill and the pavement is gone. The
boys patch it as much as they can but it needs to be looked at again.
You can ask Wayne, or whoever is out there, to take a second look.
You might have to take a bit of your money that you ordinarily would
have put on the Bay d=Espoir
Highway to address it. That is
where I am coming from.
I do not have to explain
it to the guys - the thing about it, if it was just two kilometres between
Seal Cove and Hermitage, I could say: all right, I get $200 a year over the
next number of years to do it, but you are talking of a major artery going
down there. It is something like
the Great Northern Peninsula or the Bonavista Highway, or whatever.
The road is, as I said, I think you would have to drive it yourself to
really see what I am saying about it. It
is taking a tremendous pounding. Four
kilometres a year just will not do it. I
am hoping, as I said, minister, next year - I know this year the money is
there, but even if I am not around, if I am looking up at the sod rather than
looking down on it -
MR. HICKEY:
We hope that is not the case, Oliver.
MR. LANGDON:
I hope you do not.
In all due respect, just
have a look at it because it needs to be done.
It is a major artery and all the economic activity that is down there -
it is not from one community to the other, it is from the Trans-Canada, just
the main leg down. Ambulances are
coming up over the road all day and so on.
The other thing that I
would probably ask, minister, I know you are talking about the high traffic
areas for winter clearing and so on, but the Bay d=Espoir
Highway is our main artery for getting people up from that area, from Bay d=Espoir
to Harbour Breton to Grand Falls, for medical facilities and so on.
I talk about people with vehicles and trucks that are big and so on.
I bought a Ford F-150, double cab.
I am taxiing more than Gulliver=s
Cabs are taking people back and forth to the district.
I did it because there are a number of times that I came up over the
highway when the guys were not working on the road and you have a foot of snow
on the highway. I put her in
four-wheel drive and I do about forty or fifty and come up through.
I am being honest with you, I have left Seal Cove, which is the
farthest point and come to the Trans-Canada, 226, 227 kilometres, and I have
not seen a person. It is a scary
situation. For the next year, when
you consider other winter clearing and so on - even though there might not be
large volumes of traffic, but it is important because, as I said, it is our
lifeline to the outside world.
MR. HICKEY:
Well, I can only say this, Oliver, you are looking at someone who can well
appreciate bad roads because I can tell you, nobody in the Province has had to
endure the roads in such poor shape as the people in Labrador.
MR. LANGDON:
I understand that.
MR. HICKEY:
I fully appreciate what you are saying, but as I went around the districts and
travelled in Western Newfoundland last year - and I am hoping to get down your
way this summer because I have not been down and I would like to go down and
look and see for myself, but as I went around the districts and I looked at
some of the road work and the condition of roads, I was just appalled.
To say the least, I was appalled, because even though I had heard the
stories, you have to be out there. I
remember going through with the Member for Exploits, through his district, but
you have to actually go and see in order to appreciate some of the bad roads.
It just shows we are
learning from this whole experience, at least I am, and I think, as a
government, we are learning that you have to keep your maintenance up.
I think as we look in the past we have not probably spent the money.
We have not put the priorities in the right location.
We have allowed our infrastructure to go downhill and, of course, when
that happens all hell will break lose eventually.
I think that is what we are seeing probably down in your district and
in other districts as we go through it.
The only thing I will say
to you is that we are committed to improving the roads and (inaudible) systems
in this Province.
MR. LANGDON:
I understand that. Like I said, I
just want to make one point before I pass it to somebody else.
When Roger Simmons and the
boys were in Opposition when Peckford was Premier - Frank Moores- I do not
know if we got an inch of pavement. Over
the eighteen years that I have been there, we have not done near as much as we
would have liked to have done.
What I see happening down
there now, even the roads that were done say eighteen years ago or fifteen
years ago or ten years ago, I am not sure if the pavement was that thick, or
that thick, or whatever, but the huge trucks and the heavy loads are killing
it. Even what was done within the
last ten years is gone. That is
the problem. As you go down you
can see it. There is about 120
kilometres as good as anywhere, but it is around eighty kilometres that....
I don=t
have to tell Cluney, he is more familiar with it than I am, but it is
something to look at for next year.
MR. HICKEY:
Absolutely.
Thank you all for that.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Mr. Langdon.
Mr. Sweeney.
MR. SWEENEY:
Thank you very much.
I have a few questions I
would like to address to the minister and his staff.
Lighting at intersections,
who is responsible for that? I am
not talking about traffic lights; I am talking about street lighting for
safety purposes.
MR. HICKEY:
Correct me if I am wrong, but -
MR. SWEENEY:
Outside of a municipality, on a major road.
MR. HICKEY:
As I understand it, we do not normally get into street lighting.
That is not a mandate of the Department of Transportation and Works.
Am I correct, Cluney?
MR. MERCER:
Yes, that is correct. There are
three locations whereby the department provides lighting, and those are where
there is a concrete median in the middle of a divided highway.
The three locations would be Grand Falls-Windsor, Pitts Memorial Drive,
and the lower section of the Outer Ring Road.
Any lights that you see on interchange ramps, at intersections
throughout the Province, even if they are in the middle of nowhere, they have
been either done by development associations, town councils -
MR. HICKEY:
Local service districts.
MR. MERCER:
Local service districts, clubs - of that nature.
What we do is, we provide the technical expertise to do the design work
in terms of the number of lights and the placement of lights.
We have assisted a number of associations in doing just that, and they
would make the arrangements with Newfoundland Power to get the poles
installed, and they cover the monthly fee, I presume.
That is something that we have never gotten into.
MR. HICKEY:
And we are not planning on getting into.
MR. SWEENEY:
Everyone else is a bit parochial here with their questions this evening, so I
will get mine over with early before I get into the Budget part of it.
Harvey Street in Harbour
Grace, are there any plans to upgrade that before turning it over to the town
council? Right now it is hardly
passable, Cluney, I guess, as you are well aware.
MR. HICKEY:
Let me make a couple of comments on that, if I could.
We are now discussing with
a number of councils the opportunities to look at upgrading roads through
municipalities, that are going through municipalities, with the opportunity,
hopefully, to see the municipalities take over those roads.
We are in talks with a number of different municipalities around the
Province. It is something that we
are not forcing on any municipality, but municipalities that wish to become
involved and to sit down and have those discussions, we will do so.
Having said that, we believe there are some opportunities, and I will
pursue each and every one of those opportunities, because at the end of the
day we certainly want to concentrate on the main roads, the Trans-Canada
Highway, arterials, and some of these main roads.
So, if the Town of Harbour Grace wants to sit down and have discussions
with me in that regard, I would be more than happy to do so.
MR. SWEENEY:
Well, I will certainly pass that information on to the mayor.
Breakwaters in various
communities - for instance, in Freshwater in the Carbonear area there is a
breakwater that protects one of your roads that you maintain, and there is
another one in Bristol=s
Hope; it is a sea-made breakwater - do you people still repair those things?
MR. HICKEY:
Cluney?
MR. MERCER:
There are some seawalls, most of which are made of timber, that we do repairs
to, or replace in some cases. There
are some breakwaters, however - traditional breakwaters, I will call them, out
into the water - that, even though they provide protection to road
infrastructure, they also provide protection for boating and other harbour
facilities. Those are generally
not in our jurisdiction. In some
cases, they have been put there through Small Craft Harbours or other
federal-provincial initiatives, and those we have not gotten involved in.
I am not totally familiar
with the two that you are talking about, but there are some wooden timber
seawalls out in that area that we do maintain, I know we have repaired, and we
continue to do so.
MR. SWEENEY:
I had those questions from the two communities involved, so that will give me
the proper answer for them.
I will go on now to the
Budget itself. When will the
tenders be called for the two new ferries?
MR. HICKEY:
As you know, George, our government is committed to building two brand new
ferries. It is a commitment that
was in our Blue Book. It is part
of our transportation strategy forward, certainly, to replace the ferry fleet.
Progress is moving very well on both those ferries.
We will be looking at two sixteen car ferries.
Just yesterday morning, as
a matter of fact - if you take a look on the Web site, I think the pictures
are there today, if I am not mistaken - myself and my colleague, Minister
Whalen, were down to the National Research Council, along with our advisory
committee from the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities, who
also came down and viewed the testing of the two hulls that will be used in
the design of the new vessels. They
are presently doing ice tests, and it is my expectation that we should be in a
position, certainly by July or August, to have tenders out for those.
As I understand it, we
have every reason to believe that those ferries will be built in the Province
of Newfoundland and Labrador, by Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and this is
the initial start of replacing the ferries, many of which are forty to
forty-five years old.
I will tell you that we
will not be going out and buying old ferries to put in to augment our fleet.
It is our plan to move forward with new vessels, of which will have
state-of-the-art technology. As a
matter of fact, just for the benefit of those in the room, this is the first
time in our Province=s
history that we have used the (inaudible) leading edge technology that is in
this Province in the design and the building of these vessels.
I must say, I am very,
very pleased with the progress on that particular file.
MR. SWEENEY:
What are the anticipated ports for these ferries?
Where are they intended to be used?
MR. HICKEY:
There has not been a decision as to where these ferries will be stationed.
Once they are built, we will assess our fleet.
We will assess the condition of the ferries at different locations, and
then we will make those decisions. That
is the plan forward.
MR. SWEENEY:
What is the anticipated date of the next two or three or four, if we are going
to replace the whole fleet?
MR. HICKEY:
As we move forward, there is no question, we have a lot of work to do.
MR. SWEENEY:
So, you don=t
have a long-term plan?
MR. HICKEY:
Oh, we have a long-term plan. Once
these two roll out, we will do two more. Then
we may even have as high as four on the go, because we have to build two brand
new ones to go across the Straits between Newfoundland and Labrador.
So we are actioning it up, but we want to ensure, as we move forward,
that we have the capacity, the shipyards here.
We do not want to send them outside the Province for construction.
So, once we get these two completed and in the water and champagne
broken over the bow - we will invite you down to that -
MR. SWEENEY:
I certainly plan on being around.
MR. HICKEY:
Absolutely. Even if you are not,
we will still invite you.
Let me say this: Our plan
forward, our commitment here, is the replacement of the ferry fleet.
I have to say, we have great challenges.
I wonder some days how we even keep it all together, when we look back
at the age of some of these vessels. We
are moving forward, and I am very proud of the progress.
When these two are finished, we will start two more and we will keep
doing it until we have our fleet replaced.
MR. LANGDON:
I will just ask the minister about a point.
Probably he can=t
tell me, or there is probably no plan for it, but I will just ask it anyhow.
One of the recommendations from the Burin Peninsula and the Connaigre
side, the Coast of Bays and the Burin Peninsula development and the REDBs,
they have, between them, recognized how important it would be if we had a
roll-on, roll-off, ferry service between the Burin Peninsula and Pool=s
Cove on the Connaigre side so that when tourists come down the Bay d=Espoir
Highway they do not have to loop back again; they can go across.
Is there any talk about anything like that?
MR. HICKEY:
Thank you for that question, a good question.
Now you are going to get a good answer.
The way it is right now,
as a matter of fact, we have our staff that have gone out - as you may or may
not know, Oliver, we are now doing transportation consultations in all of the
regions. As a matter of fact, our
staff have been out for the last two to three weeks.
We have received a tremendous amount of information as we do the
consultations with the different communities.
Certainly, as we did with
the Northern Strategic Plan, this government is interested in listening to the
views of the people, to the views of the communities, to the views of the
stakeholders, so we are going to gather all of that information before we make
any final decisions.
Let me say this: We
understand that there are needs out there, and people have expectations.
Certainly, as we unfold the plan forward we will be taking those into
consideration.
MR. LANGDON:
It would be a big economic boost for aquaculture on the Connaigre Peninsula.
MR. HICKEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Let=s
see what else I can find for the minister to pound his chest about here now.
What is the long-term plan
for the upkeep and modernization of the government buildings?
Of all of them, actually. I
notice that some of them around the Province are undergoing some challenges
with regard to maintenance. I was
in Seal Cove just last week, and the front step was gone.
One side was roped off, and you could not use it.
MR. HICKEY:
I will try to address that.
Again, I say to the member
that I do not think the step of that particular building deteriorated in the
last three-and-a-half years.
MR. SWEENEY: My
front step did, at my house.
MR. HICKEY:
I can only say, as I go around and look at the buildings - and I have been
through a good many. When I went
down to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and saw the absolutely, totally -
myself and Minister Marshall toured it, and it was absolutely painful to walk
through a building that had been left in such a dilapidated condition with no
maintenance. We have everything
from birds in the ceiling, we have mold on the floor, mold on the walls.
Really, it is terrible. Let
me say this: Again, we are spending unprecedented amounts of money to try to
improve our infrastructure.
I will ask Weldon to just
give us a breakdown of how we have increased the budgets for maintenance over
the last two years.
MR. MOORES:
In years past, our budget in our alterations block for repair and alterations
to government buildings, including environmental remediation and demolition,
used to be $4.5 million. If you
look in the Estimates book here tonight, that figure is $18.7 million, so
there has been a significant increase on buildings.
The same issue that is on roads, it is going to take us a few years to
get back on track.
The steps that you
referred to, that has been brought to our attention.
It is on our tentative list. Since
they are buildings that educational programs are in, we have sent our list to
Education and said: Here is what we are planning to do.
It does not meet everything that was on their requirements list.
Do you want to do any final adjustments?
Tentatively, it is there.
The final decision on that list is to be made in the next couple of
weeks.
MR. HICKEY:
Just to add to that, I want to say, as the ADM just mentioned, we are spending
four times the amount of monies on infrastructure than what was being spent
when this government took office, so that is a significant increase.
We have significant challenges. We
have some 900 buildings, is it, Weldon?
MR. MOORES:
Yes, Minister, between 850 and 900 buildings.
MR. HICKEY:
Nine hundred buildings in the Province to look after; so, as you can imagine,
this is a tremendous task to try to get these buildings and to keep these
buildings in shape.
Certainly, as we did this
year, as we did last year, we will continue to do next year and the year after
and the year after, to continue to invest in the building infrastructure of
our Province.
MR. MOORES:
Just to clarify that 850, that is provincial buildings that the department
looks after. It does not include
hospitals and schools, which the boards look after.
MR. HICKEY:
That is right.
MR. SWEENEY:
That would also include the CONA buildings?
MR. MOORES:
Yes, it does include the College of the North Atlantic buildings.
MR. SWEENEY:
The reason I mentioned that, I was there last week to a meeting and it just
struck me: here is a beautiful building that is well used, and the front step
with a barrier across it. It just
came to mind, but there are other buildings in the Province as well.
I said: God love the bit of oil and mineral money, that we are able to
make these repairs and increase the budgets.
MR. HICKEY:
I think, just on that point, we can talk about the oil and we can talk about
the mineral wealth, but it is also talking about priorities.
You can have all the money, but if you do not put your money where your
priorities are, or where you priorities need to be - and I think that is why
we are having success with this government in this Province, because we are
strategically placing our monies where they should have been in the past, and
we are going to continue to put them into the future; because, simply put -
AN HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible) will be here all night. Enough
of that bullshit.
MR. HICKEY:
Well, that is fine. You don=t
have to listen to it, if you don=t
like. I am allowed to have my
piece. I have listened to you,
Oliver. I will have my say and you
can have your say.
Let me say this: It is a
matter of priorities, and I can tell you that buildings and roads and that
type of infrastructure is a priority of this government and this Premier.
MR. SWEENEY:
Like you say, when you have the money it is easy to expand your priorities.
What is the status on the
Salmonier Correctional Institution right now on Salmonier Line?
MR. MOORES:
The facility is slated for demolition. The
land will be turned over to Environment and Conservation, who will develop it
- my understanding is - as cabin lot developments.
MR. SWEENEY:
What was that last part again, Weldon? I
am sorry.
MR. MOORES:
I think it is their plan to further develop it as cabin lot developments.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
Will that be tendered?
MR. MOORES:
Will what be tendered?
MR. SWEENEY:
The land.
MR. MOORES:
I do not know how Environment and Conservation do that.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
Water bombers - I see the
budget has some funding there for new water bombers.
Where will they be purchased from?
What is the plan? Will they
be new ones or used ones? What
would the plan be in the long term for those?
MR. MERCER:
We have had, I guess, a number of months of discussions now with Natural
Resources and Bombardier. We have
six CL-215 water bombers. Two of
those are a little older vintage than the other four.
There are two options for the newest four.
Those four can be refitted with turbine engines.
Right now, you have piston type engines that were used back - I guess
they became popular during the war, and parts for these engines are dwindling.
I think there has not been a part made since 1969; I believe that was
the last time the part was manufactured. They
are being recycled at a few locations throughout the world, so acquiring parts
is becoming difficult. The type of
fuel that they burn is also becoming an issue now as well.
They do not burn the type of fuel that the jet engines burn.
We have been looking at
some options in terms of - we have had some discussions with Bombardier - they
have re-established an assembly line to manufacture turbine engines for these
aircraft, and right now several provinces have signed on board and I think
they have an order for about eleven engines.
The cost of each engine is $20 million, plus some installation cost.
It is a significant investment to convert them to turbine.
The other option is to purchase new.
You cannot purchase the 215, though.
The aircraft that replaces the 215 is a 415.
It is a little larger aircraft. The
sale price for one of those right now is about $30 million.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is cheaper than two engines.
MR. MERCER:
Yes, it is, for a brand new aircraft. It
is about $130 million to buy four new ones; it is about $100 million to
retrofit four old ones. We are
doing some analysis on that with the Department of Natural Resources, and also
looking at the mix of the fleet in terms of, if you were to go and purchase
new aircraft, would you indeed purchase 415s or could a mix of 415s and some
other types of aircraft that other jurisdictions are using, like fireboxes,
which are a little smaller aircraft and a little bit more maneuverable in
tight spots - whether a mix of those might be right for us, so that is
ongoing.
If we are going to buy
turbine engines then we have to inform Bombardier by July, that we wish to do
so, in order to get into the cue for having turbine engines made.
If we do decide that, it will be 2010 before we take delivery of the
first engine, because we are number twelve; our first engine would be number
twelve in the cue. It takes about
eighteen months to make one of those engines, and they only make a couple at a
time.
Right now, I guess, it is
a work in progress, realizing that we have to make a decision this summer.
We have some budget available to make a down payment and get ourselves
in the cue for turbine engines to refit, or take the budget and make a down
payment on the purchase of new aircraft and start a replacement program.
MR. SWEENEY:
How long would it take to get the new ones?
MR. MERCER:
Generally, in discussions we have had with Bombardier, they typically only
build on order but they do have two or three that they do on speculation every
year, so they do have a couple. You
would not be able to go out and buy four tomorrow, but you may get one and
sort of get it off of the lot, if you want to call it that.
If you have to order it, then it is about a two year time frame to get
one.
MR. SWEENEY:
In the meantime, I guess the fleet we have now is probably good enough for the
next three years to provide ample protection?
MR. MERCER: Absolutely.
These aircraft are operating quite fine.
They are under regulatory regime by Transport Canada, so they go
through a very rigid inspection process. We
do keep an inventory of parts. We
have about $3 million worth of parts in our inventory at any one time.
We are still able to get the fuel that is needed.
When we do have to overhaul an engine, there is still at least one
place in North America that we can send the engine to get overhauled.
It is down in Denver, I believe. As
long as they stay in business then we are fine in terms of getting engines
overhauled.
We are not the only people
operating these piston engines. There
are quite a few provinces in the country, in North America, and even in Europe
and other places in the world, still using these engines, and people are
slowly moving towards either refitting or buying new.
MR. SWEENEY:
The new brand - what costs have been incurred or will be incurred by this
department because of the new branding announced by government in the past
little while?
MR. MOORES: It
is in the Budget in several places. It
will just take me a second to find it. To
use one example I am familiar with, we have to switch over the government ID
cards to the new brand. What we
did in the current year, even though ID cards were expiring, we deferred
replacing them until the details on the new brand were done.
That is on page 79; they even give an example.
It is under Technical Support Services.
We have one individual who
knows everybody in government: Sheila Kennedy.
She takes everybody=s
pictures. You will notice our
Budget there was $34,200 originally for IDs, the Revised is $15,000, and then
this year we are up to $58,200, so it is a shifting of the dollars because we
stopped producing the old cards.
The same thing with some
of the building signage. On some
of the signage on the buildings out there you might find some signs that still
say Works, Services and Transportation, or they might have, like in Government
Services - Government Services was Government Services and Lands - you still
might see some of the old signs. We
deferred replacing the signs and will be replacing them over the next two
years.
There is a cost in this
year=s
Budget, but the overall cost has somewhat been mitigated by not doing work
over the past year. It is not a
real quick answer to say how much additional it cost; it would take a bit of
time. It is not a lot dollars in
that sense.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay, in that area with IDs.
MR. MOORES: Or
buildings.
MR. SWEENEY:
What about the vehicles, the trucks and the equipment?
MR. MOORES:
As to the decals?
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes.
MR. MOORES: I
will let Cluney answer that one.
MR. MERCER:
The cost of producing the decals that go on the heavy equipment or the light
equipment, that is not a very expensive item to do.
In replacing infrastructure, we have also been replacing heavy
equipment infrastructure as well, and light vehicles.
For instance, I think this year about one-third of the light vehicle
fleet will get replaced. When the
new vehicles come in, in September, the new decals are going on them, so you
are not duplicating cost. For the
new decal, there is no difference in the cost than the old one.
MR. SWEENEY:
So we are not stripping the old ones and replacing them with new ones?
MR. MERCER:
No, unless we have something that is going to stay in service for five years
or so.
CHAIR:
Mr. Sweeney, just for a moment here now, I think Ms Marshall has a question -
just to give you a break.
MS E. MARSHALL:
I was quite interested in Mr. Sweeney=s
questions relating to the CL-215s and I was wondering, are there four or six?
I didn=t
quite catch it. I was also
wondering, is it still an arrangement to share with the other provinces, like
if there were large forest fires, say, in New Brunswick?
If you could answer those two questions.
MR. MERCER:
The first question, we have six. Two
are twenty-five years and a little bit. They
are a Series I CL-215. Those
aircraft cannot be refitted with turbine engines, so you have to continue to
use piston engines until you replace them.
The other four are Series V aircraft, and they can be refitted with
turbine engines. So we have six in
total.
Yes, we are a member of an
organization that shares aircraft. We
signed an agreement with Atlantic Canada and, in fact, across Canada, whereby
if an adjacent province, or a province even in Central Canada, has very bad
fire season, and we have a very low fire season, we would send them out, and
vice versa; they have agreed to send their aircraft in as well.
MS E. MARSHALL:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
I just interrupted, Mr. Sweeney, because I knew that she had a question
pertaining to what you were talking about.
You go ahead.
MR. SWEENEY:
How much money was spent this year on advertising from your department, from
all sources: radio, TV and papers?
MR. HEALEY:
We do not have that figure available but we can certainly get it for you.
MR. SWEENEY:
So, I can expect that shortly?
MR. HEALEY:
In due course.
MR. SWEENEY:
Contracting out -
MR. SALTER:
Just to make a point. I can work
on getting that number for you, but other than the Snow Means Slow campaign,
from a communications stand point, there is not a lot of advertising.
WITNESS:
We would advertise (inaudible).
MR. SALTER:
Okay. No, I am speaking from my
perspective.
MR. SWEENEY:
There is a fair bit of advertising. I
see it in the paper with regard to tendering and other publications around,
too. I was just wondering what -
it was just a thought I had there while I was waiting for Beth to ask her a
question. It just came to me.
MR. HICKEY:
I am not sure what the amounts are, we will get them for you.
Obviously, when you are doing more work, you are going to be doing more
tendering. You are going to be
doing more advertising when you are doing more work.
MR. LANGDON:
I would like to go back and ask a question, just to jump in here.
I do not think I got the full answer, and Weldon probably will be able
to give it to us tonight. I would
like to, in ball park figures, get the cost of what it cost the Province for
the branding thing. I know you
have it in your budget and so on, but it would be good to look through it and
so on. It is not something that is
urgent but over the next number of weeks or months or whatever -
MR. HEALEY:
Can I address that, perhaps?
MR. LANGDON:
Sure, Keith, go ahead.
MR. HEALEY:
Our part in that is only what we do for Transportation and Works.
So, it is a question that you would have to direct to a different
department.
MR. LANGDON:
Absolutely, I understand that; just Transportation.
MR. SWEENEY:
Another question, I guess, while we are waiting here.
How much work was contracted out this year that would normally have
been done by members of the public service?
Since we are talking about branding, like the big sign outside there,
that would have been done probably at the Sign Shop.
How much work was done, contracted, rather than done in-house?
MR. HEALEY:
Let me give a general answer to that, Mr. Sweeney, and that is that we only
contract out work where we do not have employees to do the work.
We have a strict agreement with the unions on that, that if we have
union people, even in layoff, that we cannot contract out any work.
So, I guess, the answer to that is none, really.
MR. SWEENEY:
Again, I talk about the branding. There
is a bit of a hullabaloo about how the sign could have been done in-house
versus outside, being contracted out. I
cannot remember what the exact dollar value was on that particular sign but I
did have some information about in-house or local, the Sign Shop may be able
to do it themselves. I was just
wondering.
I am hoping to get to the
Sign Shop and some other places there in the Budget with regard to decreases
in materials and supplies and things like that.
I was just wondering, because there have been some things and some
changes.
I noticed in around the
building here, for instance, there is an awful lot of renovations taking place
here on this floor. As I walked in
here this evening, I noticed large amounts.
I am just wondering, how much contracting out is being done?
MR. HICKEY:
The answer, I think, was just given by the assistant deputy minister, is that
we fully understand our obligations to our unions and to the collective
agreements that we have signed. So,
we would only contract out work once we have all of our workforce back and
working. Having said that, we, as
governments in the past, will continue to contract out for particular
projects, particular tenders on a go forward basis.
MR. HEALEY:
I will just add to that. The
department has not always done all the work.
We manage the work. It is
like our roads work, we do not go out and construct the roads themselves but
we manage the contractors that we hire, and the same goes for a lot of our
building work. We never, ever had
the staff on to actually do the renovations but we just manage the contractors
that we hire to do it, and that has not changed.
MR. SWEENEY:
There will be no new contracting out, other than what has been done in the
past?
MR. HEALEY:
Yes, I think that is a fair statement.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay. Has there been an increase
or a decrease in seasonal employees over the past number of years, in the past
twelve months?
MR. HEALEY:
I will give you, again, a general answer.
I cannot give you exact numbers but certainly given that our roads
budget, as an example, has almost tripled, there has definitely been an
increase.
MR. SWEENEY:
It is not safe to say that we tripled the staff because, obviously, we just
learned that the price of asphalt has gone up somewhere around 70 per cent.
MR. HEALEY:
Yes. Also, we do not do all the
work, we manage it. So in that
case, we would have to increase our staff who oversee the contractors.
MR. SWEENEY:
All right. Does anyone else want
some questions before I start in?
CHAIR:
Mr. Langdon, if you could just turn on your microphone there.
MR. LANGDON:
I have a seasonal depot in my place, for example, in Bay D=Espoir
that would close down - it is probably already closed down now that the winter
season is over. As these depots
close down over the summer, how many people are laid off, approximately,
Cluney or the minister, or whoever?
MR. MERCER: Our
winter season employs our biggest complement of staff.
In the winter we have roughly 550 operators in place.
In the summer there is a combination of operators and labourers doing
summer maintenance work. It would
probably be in the 350 to 400 range. So,
you are probably talking about an additional 150 to 170 people or so during
the winter.
MR. LANGDON:
Yes. I guess, like in all
situations, some of these people who would be of the 100 or 150 that would be,
say, laid off over the summer months - and I can understand they are winter
staff. Over the last winter, was
there any problem in recruiting some people?
Because I know in some situations - I have talked to people that I know
who worked for Transportation and Works, not that they were discontented with
the job or anything, but because it was seasonal they saw a better
opportunity, for example, in Alberta and they went there.
Just for personal information, I am not trying to probe or anything
like that: Were there any difficulties last year when you did hire back your
winter people, any problems where you had some difficulty in finding some
operators? And I do not know the
answer to that.
MR. HICKEY:
No, no, a good question, a good answer.
We have had difficulties
in certain areas, certain fields. Certainly,
heavy equipment mechanics has been one that we have had some challenges, but I
am happy to report here this evening that we have hired some twenty-four
apprentices with the Department of Transportation and Works.
It is my vision forward, and we certainly mandated the department to,
whenever possible, hire apprentices.
MR. LANGDON:
That is a good idea.
MR. HICKEY:
That has been a great success for us. There
are other positions, like heavy equipment operators, we had some postings out
there last year. We had more than
adequate - if my memory serves me correctly - numbers of people, and qualified
people, apply for those positions.
MR. DINN:
Can I comment on that, John?
MR. HICKEY:
Yes.
MR. DINN:
I think what is happening too, in the whole scheme of things, is that when
people are working with the Province clearing snow in the winter, they are
picking up jobs with the other construction companies in the summertime.
What is happening now is that rather than being laid off for four of
five months a year, people are able to work now full time.
It is not just typical with the Province that there is difficulty
finding mechanics and everything else, this has been ongoing with a lot of
industries.
I know Metrobus had to
send away, four or five years ago, and compete with someone in Nova Scotia for
a heavy equipment mechanic. They
actually had to pay his salary and his expenses here in order to get him.
That is not unusual just for the Province, that is typical with the
situation.
CHAIR:
I think Mr. Forsey has a question there as well.
MR. FORSEY:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will direct this, Mr.
Minister, to Mr. Mercer because I have been wanting to ask this ever since Mr.
Langdon spoke earlier about roads going to Bay d=Espoir.
It is only a suggestion and some information that probably we should
get to find out. There is not much
consultation between transportation and forestry, and we are putting in a lot
of forestry access roads. These
forestry access roads, you know, Cluney, are in a lot of the rural areas and
we are planning on pulling a lot of stuff out of those areas, especially when
we start harvesting. We are
bringing it out on - you know what we are bringing it out on, and it is not
going to happen, it cannot happen. I
think we need some consultation with our forestry people.
Thank you.
CHAIR:
Okay.
MR. MERCER:
I agree, Mr. Forsey, that more consultation is needed.
In fact, it is not only forestry, it is tourism as well.
We need to have more consultation with tourism because there are
tourism destinations throughout the Province whereby people go to visit.
We pick up on some of that through our traffic counts.
Obviously, some of the more heavily travelled routes are -
MR. HICKEY:
(Inaudible).
MR. MERCER:
That is right. So, we have
established a -
MR. FORSEY:
When we get a tour bus go into a community, and I will not name the community
- I am sure you know where I am talking about, because of the district - you
get a tour bus going in once a week, or maybe a couple of times a month during
the summer, but when we start harvesting the wood it is going to be more than
once a week that those trucks will be travelling over it.
I agree that tourism is
important, too, because they have to keep their vehicles up, but we are not
going to have much left if we do not find out where these access roads are
going, and what we are doing to maintain them, to get the wood and stuff out
of there.
Right now, within the next
couple of years - let=s
just say that I think it is something that we should put on the agenda.
MR. MERCER:
Sure.
CHAIR:
Anyone else?
Mr. Sweeney?
MR. SWEENEY:
Back to the Alberta issue, how many people are on leave of absence from your
department for Alberta purposes or...?
WITNESS:
I do not have the number. We can
certainly get it for you, but from a policy perspective we follow a policy
that if we cannot find a replacement we generally do not approve the leave.
For the most part, we do not have a lot of difficulty in finding
replacements when people apply for that.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
On section 1.1.01.,
Minister=s
Office, Transportation and Communications, the Revised and Budget in 2006-2007
went from $41,700 to $61,700 and now it is back to $41,700 for 2007-2008.
Is there an explanation for that variance of $20,000?
MR. HICKEY:
Absolutely. We have had some new
initiatives that we have been involved in.
We have had several meetings in Ottawa with Minister Cannon and
Minister Hearn, the Atlantic Transportation Ministers=
meetings which we attend. We
attended the national Transportation Ministers=
meeting in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, and, of course, we have had,
as I said earlier, meetings with federal ministers and their officials on
different issues, particularly the Trans-Labrador Highway.
MR. SWEENEY:
So you are planning a decrease in travel for this year?
MR. HICKEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under Executive Support, there is an adjustment there of about $111,000 under
Salaries.
MR. HICKEY:
There is a hundred and what?
MR. SWEENEY:
It looks like $111,000. The
Revised for 2006-2007 was $740,000.
MR. HICKEY:
Keith will explain that to you.
MR. HEALEY:
I am sorry; can you repeat the question? I
am not sure. Are you talking about
the Revised versus the Budget?
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes, I am talking about what is budgeted for this year versus what occurred
last year, and why there is an increase of -
MR. HEALEY:
The difference there is for the new ADM position for marine, and a secretary
position.
MR. SWEENEY:
So you have created a new ADM position?
MR. HEALEY:
Yes, for marine operations.
MR. SWEENEY:
How many ADMs is that now?
MR. HEALEY:
That will bring us to four.
MR. SWEENEY:
Four.
MR. HEALEY:
Yes.
I might add, that ADM
position is going out to Lewisporte.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
MR. HEALEY:
Going out in rural Newfoundland.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under Administrative Support, 1.2.02., there is an increase from $964,000 to
$1,174,000, over $200,000.
MR. HEALEY:
Besides the salary increases and step increases, two new positions were
created here, two internal audit positions.
Given the size of our department, the budget that we spend, the
multitude of locations that we have, we just felt the need to bring in a
couple of auditors to go out and make sure that things are under control and
within control.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
So that would also, I
guess, justify the increase in the Transportation and Communications section?
MR. HEALEY:
Yes, in part.
MR. SWEENEY:
And Supplies?
MR. HEALEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Purchased Services?
MR. HEALEY:
Well, the Purchased Services budget is not going up.
It is going up over the Revised, but not over the Budget.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
Strategic Human Resource
Management, Salaries, $100,000. What
is the position there that is created?
MR. HEALEY:
Well, what government has done there, they had a complete review of the human
resource function in government and realized that it was lacking in strategic
approach to developing human resources. As
a result of that, we have created a couple of new manager positions in our
department that will look at long-term planning for human resources, including
succession planning and better professional development of all of our staff
and so on.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is two positions, is it?
MR. HEALEY:
I would have to go back and see exactly what we had there last year, Mr.
Sweeney, but there are at least two manager positions plus two officer type
positions. So there are probably
four there that were not there last year.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
So you will forward that
information to me?
MR. HEALEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under Policy Development and Planning, last year the Budget was $620,000, and
$498,000 was spent. This year=s
Budget is for $430,000. What has
happened there? Have we lost some
positions?
MR. HEALEY:
In terms of the Salaries, the additions in last year=s
Budget were to undertake the Labrador Transportation Plan, which we are
currently working on. We hired two
new staff to take on that task.
MR. SWEENEY:
They are not on staff this year?
MR. HEALEY:
No.
MR. SWEENEY:
They are finished.
MR. HEALEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under Transportation and Communications, an increase of $100,000.
MR. HEALEY:
Again, that was related to the travel to conduct the plan, as you are probably
aware.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is budgeted for this year.
MR. HEALEY:
Pardon me?
MR. SWEENEY:
That is budgeted for this year, the extra $100,000.
MR. HEALEY:
Okay, but also we are doing an Island transportation plan this year, and the
increase in the travel is to travel the Island and do consultations again.
MR. SWEENEY:
Who is going to do that? What
people? Where are their salaries
reflected here?
MR. HEALEY:
In-house staff.
MR. SWEENEY:
What I am getting at is that the revised budget for last year was $496,000
because of the Labrador plan.
MR. HEALEY:
In part, yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
In part.
Now those people are gone
-
MR. HEALEY:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
- and the budget this year is $430,000 and we are going to do a Newfoundland
transportation plan?
MR. HEALEY:
We increased our permanent complement by two staff as well last year, although
we did not get them on early in the year and that is why the Revised was down.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
Professional Services in
that same heading is up $100,000, or almost $100,000.
What services would that be?
MR. HEALEY:
What we are planning on there is to use consultants a bit more to do the
Island transportation plan.
MR. SWEENEY:
It is not entirely going to be done in-house, then?
MR. HEALEY:
No.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under Mail Services, there is an increase in Salaries there.
Any anticipated positions there in that one?
MR. MOORES:
Yes, there is one additional mail and messenger clerk being added there.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is right here in the building, I guess, is it?
That is where the mail services -
MR. MOORES:
Yes, it is just before or just as you come to the link, depending on which way
you are going.
MR. SWEENEY:
So, two new positions?
MR. MOORES:
One.
MR. SWEENEY:
One?
MR. MOORES:
One mail messenger. It is a mail
and messenger clerk, one position.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay.
Under General
Administration, subhead 1.2.06., I notice Purchased Services is up over -
actually, it is almost $1.5 million. What
services would they be?
MR. MERCER:
That is associated with a GIS project that we are currently undertaking to
build a transportation GIS system for our transportation network.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is for all of your vehicles to have -
MR. MERCER:
No, GIS is Geographic Information System.
What it allows us to do is to take all of our road inventory, and
anything that is associated with our road inventory, like signs, guide rails,
culverts, and attach it all in a database so that you can display it all in
that form. It will also allow us
to display road conditions in that form as well in terms of rut depth,
cracking and roughness, and those sorts of things.
MR. HICKEY:
Just an additional comment on that. We
are also in partnership with the federal government.
MR. MERCER:
Yes, that is a 50-50 cost-shared arrangement with the federal government.
MR. HICKEY:
We plan on going hi-tech whenever we can go, because this minister is all
about hi-tech.
MR. SWEENEY:
Certainly about something, yes.
While we are talking about
roads, and hi-tech, and everything else, the camera system reporting the
weather conditions in the Province and in Labrador, are there any plans for
any others or are you just going to keep the locations that are there?
First of all, I have to
compliment the department for keeping them in operation.
I found them very invaluable this past number of winters, actually.
I do quite a bit of travelling and it is great to be able to see what
you are going out into.
MR. MERCER:
Thank you for that.
Actually, we were one of
the first provinces in Atlantic Canada to do that.
Everyone else quickly jumped on board.
Most of the provinces have more than we do now.
One of the restraints that
we have, or constraints that we have is that in order to feed back the images
and everything, we have to have Internet access, power, a router and all that
kind of stuff. Some of the places
where we would like to put them, it is remote and do not have power.
We did, last year under
another federal-provincial cost-shared initiative, high-tech again, put in
eighteen RWIS sites, Road Weather Information Stations across the Province.
You will probably see those as you drive across on the Trans-Canada
Highway. All of those towers now -
or most of them, at least - have the capabilities to feed back camera images
as well.
MR. SWEENEY:
Oh, good.
MR. MERCER:
That is something that we are looking at doing in expanding the camera
service.
MR. HICKEY:
You will be able to get your picture taken, George.
MR. SWEENEY:
I am not worried about my picture, I am worried about what I am driving into -
as Paul, I guess, you can appreciate.
MR. CHAIR:
No doubt.
MR. SWEENEY:
When you are on that highway you can certainly appreciate what you are -
MR. CHAIR:
Absolutely. Doing a good job,
actually.
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes, to take a quick look. I am
glad to hear that there are going to be, at least, some more sites reporting
on the highway conditions.
OFFICIAL:
We have the potential to do that, yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
I might even wave to you, minister, in case you are watching those things.
MR. HICKEY:
I will be looking out for it.
MR. SWEENEY:
I am sure.
At the Sign Shop - I knew
I would get over to it sooner or later - Salaries.
There is an increase in Salaries this year of about $100,000, or a
little over $100,000. You have
just been hiring more people or - give them all a raise down there so they
will not be subcontracting signs out.
MR. MERCER:
Actually, part of the increase is, in fact, the increases associated with the
3 per cent raise. So, that is
correct. In addition to that,
there is one additional position that we are putting in place down there this
year to help with the sign production, given the larger programs that we are
putting out.
MR. SWEENEY:
You must be planning on making them busy because you have doubled your
supplies for the year.
MR. MERCER:
Yes.
MR. HICKEY:
We have $100,000 just for Labrador alone.
MR. MERCER:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
There is a decrease in Salaries, section 2.1.03. for Maintenance and Repairs
of roads, $800,000. How many jobs
were lost due to that decrease in funding?
MR. MERCER:
Mr. Sweeney, there are no job losses as a result of that.
The biggest (inaudible) is, when we were funded for salaries on our
maintenance program, our maintenance program was split into two parts:
maintenance and repair is summer maintenance; snow and ice control is winter
maintenance.
Traditionally, we have
split that total salary budget for that program on an eleven pay period
-fifteen pay period basis. What we
found, certainly over the last eight or ten years that we have been monitoring
it, a more accurate split in terms of winter and summer is a twelve-fourteen
split. So, what we have done is we
have just moved the money down, and you will see the Salaries and the Snow and
Ice Control have actually gone up.
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes, I just noticed that, $100,000. Okay.
So you have gone from November to April for winter?
MR. MERCER:
We start our winter program officially on November 1.
Although on the West Coast, it tends to come a little earlier.
So we do have some of our operators and some of our people back on over
there as early as October 11. Generally,
near the end of April is when winter season ends.
So, the first of May we are in full summer maintenance mode.
MR. HEALEY:
I just wanted to point out on that, that basically, this is an accounting
issue. It has nothing to do with
the operations. No change in our
summer or winter maintenance timelines. Just
accounting, yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Rentals with Purchased Services, section 2.2.04., that seems to have gone up
$300,000.
MR.
MOORES: The leases renew from time to time as we go to tender to renew the
leases, so part of it is a market force. We
have also put in the Budget some funding for additional office space that we
anticipate we will require. We may
find it in government buildings. What
we are finding is to get the space in government buildings, the layout that is
currently there - as the staff are increased in a particular area, it takes
awhile to redo the space and make it workable.
When we did the second
floor, we did it without swing space. While
people are happy with the final product they were not too happy with the
process that we went under. There
is some extra funding that we may need for rental space on a short basis, is
part of it, but a large part of it is our tenders are long term and as tenders
come up - the price might not have changed for five to ten years, but when
they come out now the price goes up.
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes.
Salt storage sheds, are
there any new facilities being built for Labrador, along the Trans-Labrador
Highway?
MR. HICKEY:
Well, let me say this, we do not use salt in Labrador and we have no plans on
using salt in Labrador.
MR. SWEENEY:
Good. So no facilities at all are
going to be built there?
MR. HICKEY:
No.
OFFICIAL:
Just sanding.
MR. SWEENEY:
Just sanding is it? I should say,
sand storage sheds.
MR. HICKEY:
No, no. We have depots along the
way. We have sand, obviously,
piled up but we have readily available caches of sand at different locations
along the Trans-Labrador Highway and that has been more than adequate for
meeting our needs.
OFFICIAL:
I thought you would know (inaudible).
MR. SWEENEY:
Fortunately, I do not pretend to know everything.
That is why I go through this exercise every year to learn as much as I
can.
The total in Building
Maintenance, Operations and Accommodations has gone up about $4 million;
2.2.05, $43 million, the total there at the bottom.
Have we gone through $4
million worth of increases there on that page, or is there something there
that I have missed?
There is $300,000 there in
Purchased Services; I see that.
MR. MOORES:
You are on page 80?
MR. SWEENEY:
Yes.
MR. MOORES: If
you go up in 2.2.03., you will see Purchased Services went from $23.6 million
to $25.7 million. That is a fair
bit of the increase, and that covers such things as energy costs, being fuel
and electricity for the buildings, which has certainly gone up.
While we do not pay property tax to municipalities, we pay water tax
and that has gone up in some cases.
The building that some
people may know as the xwave building, 40 Higgins Line, was previously leased
to Aliant, until March 31 of this year; and, under the terms of the lease with
Aliant, Aliant paid the operating costs of the building.
That lease has ended; it is now a government building. We are in the
process of setting it up for the office of the CIO, and the costs of operating
the building, that were previously paid by Aliant, are now in this budget
line.
MR. SWEENEY:
The Minister of Environment today mentioned in the House that government were
being proactive with regard to becoming more eco-friendly.
MR. HICKEY:
We are.
MR. SWEENEY:
Where is the cost of this reflected here in this budget?
MR. MOORES:
One of the things is on the page that you were just going through, when you
mentioned salt storage sheds. We
are building these sheds to prevent leakage of this salt into the environment,
and to contain it and use it in a controlled environment on our roads.
That is certainly a big commitment there, that government has made on
that.
MR. SWEENEY:
What about building refits, retrofitting buildings, and more energy
efficiency?
MR. MOORES:
It would not be on this particular page, but later you are going to come up to
something called Alternations and Improvements.
Some might be in that. A
lot of it you will not see in the Transportation and Works budget.
If I use the new health
care centre in Corner Brook as an example, that project is funded out of
monies that are voted within the Department of Health and Community Services.
Transportation and Works does the project management on them.
In the concept for the design of that building we have put forth a plan
that its heating system would be done through wells drilled into the ground so
it has a ground source heat pump system. That
is part of an environmental initiative of government.
Also, the grey water that
comes out of that building, instead of going into the normal sanitary sewers,
it is being treated by re bed on site. Those
things together were significant enough that our Director of Building Design
won an environment award -
MR. HICKEY:
In 2007.
MR. MOORES:
Yes - from the Professional Association of Engineers and Geoscientists.
A lot of the environment
measures that are going on are, in fact, in major capital projects that are
voted over a number of different departments.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under 2.3.03., equipment acquisitions for heavy equipment and light vehicles
for the departmental vehicle fleet, there is a decrease there of almost $2
million. How is the fleet now?
What condition is it in? Are
we saying that 50 per cent, 70 per cent, is refurbished or renewed?
MR. HICKEY:
(Inaudible).
MR. SWEENEY:
I knew that. I could have guessed
that.
MR. MERCER:
Actually, about two years ago we put forward a five-year heavy equipment
replacement program valued at about $50 million.
This is the second year now of rolling that out.
The $2 million decrease
that you saw there is associated with a separate initiative but it is all
included under this budget line item, and that was, we shared what was
becoming a very obsolete mobile radio system with Hydro.
It was obsolete and it could fail at any time, and it could not have
been repaired. Two years ago, in
partnership with Hydro, Government Services, Natural Resources, we cost-shared
in the acquisition of a new radio system.
This was the second installment that was paid, roughly $2 million, in
2006-2007. It is done now and that
radio system is coming on stream this month.
The old system is history.
So, the $10.5 million
there is strictly for heavy equipment and is part of the five-year replacement
program. In total, we purchased
between sixty and seventy pieces of heavy equipment last year, including
thirty new tandem flyers.
MR. HICKEY:
That was in terrible shape when we took it over, too.
MR. SWEENEY:
What would be the latest date that all the roadwork would be tendered?
MR. HICKEY:
I wouldn=t
be able to tell you when the latest date is.
The only thing I can tell you is that it is our plan, as it has been
the plan of my predecessors, Minister Rideout and Minister Taylor - in
particular Minister Taylor - that we get as much roadwork out as we can.
We are in the process now of putting tenders out.
Obviously, it is our wish to get them out as soon as we can, to give
the construction industry the opportunity to get some of the best prices we
can for the work. That is our plan
forward.
MR. SWEENEY:
Under 3.2.06., the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, the revised figures
for last year were $1.2 million. The
figures for this year budgeted are $2 million.
What is the variance there on that, the $800,000?
Is there a carry-over, or...?
MR. MERCER:
I guess first I should explain that the salary component is a component of the
overall program, so roughly 10 per cent of the overall program would go
towards salaries and communications and that sort of thing.
When the budget was
formulated for 2006-2007 there was $2 million identified for salaries.
In doing so we expected, in total, to do $33 million worth of work.
We actually accomplished $25 million worth of work, therefore not
needing the full $2 million in salaries.
As I explained a little
earlier to Mr. Joyce, there were a couple of projects that we cash-flowed over
two years. Under the Financial
Administration Act, you either have the budget to award the contract for the
two years or you go through a pre-committal process through Cabinet to do
that.
In this particular case,
budget appropriation was provided to award the contracts but they were cash
flowed over two years. So you have
$2 million again for 2007-2008 to do $30 million-odd (inaudible).
MR. SWEENEY:
You spend the rest of the money out of the other $30 million?
MR. MERCER:
Yes.
MR. SWEENEY:
Development of New Facilities, 3.3.02. What
new facilities are we talking about there?
MR. MOORES:
Last year it was a new highways depot in Corner Brook which was completed, as
well as a start made on a new depot for Doyles to replace the depot at
Tompkins. The balance of that
depot will be finished this year. We
expect to tender for the construction in a couple of weeks.
So, most of the money will be to complete the Doyles depot and a small
amount, probably in the order of $100,000 to $150,000, would be to get on with
the design of the next one that we are going to build.
So, it is an ongoing - basically, we have $1 million a year to replace
our depots. It is up from, what
used to be $500,000 a year, in years gone by.
MR. HICKEY:
It is very much appreciated by the employees who work there too, I can tell
you, for having been there.
MR. SWEENEY:
Does anybody else want to take a turn here?
CHAIR:
Mr. Langdon, if you could turn on your mike for me?
MR. LANGDON:
Sure.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
MR. LANGDON:
I know the minister is going to be doing a facility in Burgeo for people who
travel the ferry servicing Ramea, Grey River, François and all that area.
Would that be done during this construction season?
MR. HICKEY:
Absolutely. It is not the policy
of our government or this department to continue using porta-potties, as the
Member for Burgeo & LaPolie had requested during the last session.
MR. LANGDON:
Like I said, I know you are going to be doing it in Burgeo.
That would cover off those three or four communities.
What about, for example, in Rencontre I know there is not one, in Bay L=Argent
I do not think the one is operating there.
There are no plans to do anything with these two, is there?
MR. HICKEY:
We have plans, over the course of the next number of years, to do them all.
It should have been done years ago.
MR. LANGDON:
Yes, okay. I understand that.
We had an agreement with the fire brigade in Rencontre.
Do you still have that on the go?
MR. HICKEY:
I beg your pardon?
MR. LANGDON:
Is that still on the go, the arrangement with the fire department in Rencontre
to use their facility for people who go to the community?
I know it was a couple of years ago, is it still there now?
MR. MERCER:
Mr. Langdon, I am not sure, our operational people in the region will probably
be able to -
MR. LANGDON:
Okay. Probably you might be able
to let me know over the next little while -
MR. MERCER:
Sure.
MR. LANGDON:
- if it is still in operation; no urgency to it.
MR. SWEENEY:
The government operated aircraft, how many planes does the government have, or
operate, I should say?
MR. MERCER:
We have six CL-215s. We have a
spotter plane, a small (inaudible) Cessna type plane as a spotter plane in
advance of the water bombers for firefighting, and we have a King Air 350 air
ambulance plane. So, we have eight
in total.
MR. SWEENEY:
That King Air, is it used for any other purpose than air ambulance?
MR. MERCER:
No, it is exclusively dedicated to air ambulance and flies a substantial
number of hours each year. It is
pretty well full-time dedicated to medevacs.
MR. SWEENEY:
Helicopter time contracts, is that administered through to your department,
tendered out by your department, or is it on an individual department basis?
MR. MERCER:
No, we coordinate the helicopter contract for all government.
It is a two-year contract. It
was just re-tendered this past winter. We
utilize roughly 2,000 hours of flying time per year, spread across all
government departments.
MR. SWEENEY:
Okay. Who has the contract and how
much is it?
MR. MERCER:
The contract holder is Universal Helicopters, and I cannot tell you the exact
number at this point in time, but it would be approximately $2 million a year,
I guess, or thereabout. I can get
you the number if you wish.
MR. SWEENEY:
Can we also have a copy of the usage, which department uses it and how much
time is used by department?
MR. HICKEY:
(Inaudible).
MR. MERCER:
I would have the total number of hours of use, but I would not know what the
breakdown is among departments.
MR. SWEENEY:
How do you administer a contract if you do not know who is using it when your
time is used up?
MR. MERCER:
In terms of the time, it is a bottom line number.
We guarantee 2,100 hours per year for the entire government.
As those hours are used, whether they are used by Transportation and
Works, or Health and Community Services, or Natural Resources on firefighting,
the hours all come in through AFAs, are logged at our air services and I see a
spreadsheet in terms of the total number of hours used.
I do not see anything broken down by department but some of those
departments may have that.
MR. SWEENEY:
We would have to get an FOI for each department?
MR. MERCER:
That information may exist in some of the other departments.
I am not aware that we break it down that way.
We are just concerned with the total number of hours, that we use them
up.
MR. SWEENEY:
How would you know you had them used up?
MR. MERCER:
Because every hour flown is recorded by an AFA number and that AFA number
comes in through air services, actually. The
plane gets dispatched through air services.
MR. SWEENEY:
We cannot get any information on that, other than on a departmental basis?
MR. MERCER:
I am not sure that we would have a breakdown by department because I am not
sure we record it that way. We
certainly record the total number of hours.
So, it is like a declining, or an escalating balance if you want to
call it that. If every month we
use 200 hours and last month we had 200 hours, that is 400.
We just keep going up, but who uses those -
MR. HEALEY:
Our responsibility is only to manage the hours that are allocated on the
contract. Mr. Sweeney, I think you
are right, that you would have to go to individual departments to see what
hours they use.
MR. SWEENEY:
When you do the helicopter, it is put on the requisition which department it
is operating in. So, if that is
done by air services, that should not be a difficult thing to do.
For example, if I was the
Minister of Municipal Affairs and I wanted an aircraft, I would have to sign
it - that FAC, or whatever the case might be, I would have to sign it.
If Minister Hickey went with Transportation, or if Cluney Mercer was
the Minister of Health or whatever the case might be, everybody, when they get
the chopper, would be able to register and they would know which department
has it, so it should not be all that difficult to get.
MR. MERCER: Yes,
that is correct, but for the purposes - our department, we are not maintaining
that breakdown by line department.
MR. LANGDON:
So, which department does air services come under?
MR. MERCER:
That is under Transportation and Works, but what I am saying to you is they
would be recording the number of hours but they are not splitting it down and
saying this amount is for Natural Resources, this amount is for Health and
Community Services, this amount is for Transportation and Works.
MR. LANGDON:
If Transportation and Works signed the requisition order, they should be able
to get it for you (inaudible).
MR. MERCER:
You would have to go back through every single AFA and you would have to do a
spreadsheet.
MR. LANGDON:
I am not saying go ahead and do it, but it is possible to do it if
(inaudible).
CHAIR:
Mr. Langdon, we need your microphone again, sorry.
MR. LANGDON:
(Inaudible) I am okay.
MR. SWEENEY:
I guess the easiest way to do it is, just give us an example and we will start
with your department. Can we have
some information on the amount of time your department uses, and how it is
used?
OFFICIAL: We
can get that for you.
MR. MERCER: Yes,
and the total number of hours used. That
is easy.
MR. SWEENEY:
That is it; that is my last question.
I would just like, in the
meantime, to thank the minister and his staff for their due diligence and
patience with us as we asked our questions tonight.
I would like to throw a
bouquet to the workers out there in Conception Bay North for the great job
that they are doing, and in particular some of the boys at Heart=s
Content for some of the trials and tribulations they have been through this
winter with regard to Heart=s
Content Barrens. It has been
really trying and testing out there.
OFFICIAL:
(Inaudible).
CHAIR:
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Ms Marshall, I think you
have -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh,
oh!
CHAIR:
Order for a moment, please.
Ms Marshall.
MS E. MARSHALL:
I would just like to say thank you to the minister and his officials.
I found it a very interesting evening.
It is getting late, but it was a very interesting evening.
Thank you very much.
CHAIR:
We have to do the proper thing now in the proceedings and finish it up, so we
need a motion, of course, for 1.1.01. to 4.3.03.
MS E. MARSHALL:
So moved.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
On motion, subheads
1.1.01. through 4.3.03. carried.
On motion, Department of
Transportation and Works, total heads carried.
CHAIR:
Again, thank you to everyone who took part tonight.
It was a very interesting night. Thank
you to the minister and his staff.
I think the minister would
like to have a word to say before we close off.
Mr. Minister.
MR. HICKEY:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
This is my first time
participating in the Estimates Committee meetings.
I want to say to my staff and to my executive here: Thank you, gentlemen,
for staying behind this evening and for answering the questions.
As you can see from the way
in which these questions were answered here this evening, we are very open and
transparent as far as the giving of information.
I am sure the members of the Opposition found this useful and educational
this evening, to learn some of the things that we are doing here in the
Department of Transportation and Works and also in the Department of Labrador
Affairs.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
Certainly, thanks to the
House of Assembly staff for being here. We
realize it is a late night. Also,
let=s
not forget tomorrow morning at 9:00 o=clock
in the House of Assembly for Government Services.
Thank you, and have a great
night.
On motion, the Committee
adjourned.