The Committee met at 5:20 p.m. in the Executive Dining Room.

CHAIR (French): Thank you very much. First of all I welcome everybody here, all the committee, and I want to thank the minister and his staff for attending.

Before we call the first subhead and the minister has his few words, and before we start the questions, I guess we will ask the committee to introduce themselves, if they would, please, starting with Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, the Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, MHA, St. John's East.

MS E. MARSHALL: Beth Marshall, MHA, Topsail.

MR. FORSEY: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

MR. DINN: John Dinn, Kilbride.

CHAIR: Minister, if you would be so kind.

MR. O'BRIEN: As the Minister of Government Services, I am happy to be here, and I am responsible for the Government Purchasing Agency as well.

I would like to start off by having my officials identify themselves. I will start from my immediate right, my deputy minister.

MS MacDONALD: Sheree MacDonald, Deputy Minister, Department of Government Services.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, ADM for the Government Services Branch.

MS COLEMAN-SADD: Vanessa Coleman-Sadd, Director of Communications.

MR. LAYTE: Derick Layte, Executive Assistant to the Minister.

MR. CAHILL: Larry Cahill, Government Purchasing Agency.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and Safety Branch.

MR. TIBBO: Doug Tibbo, Manager of Financial Operations.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess, Minister, I will call the subhead and then you can start.

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

The floor is yours, Minister. Do you want to have a few opening remarks or are you ready to roll?

MR. O'BRIEN: The Department of Government Services has an extensive public service mandate encompassing the Consumer and Commercial Affairs, Government Services, and Occupational Health and Safety Branches. All branches have one thing in common: we are here to protect the public and occupational health and safety of the residents of the Province, and to safeguard consumer interests. Those are my opening remarks. I am ready for questions.

CHAIR: Just before Mr. Butler starts - I guess we will start with Mr. Butler – if the officials could just say their name before they respond to a question, Minister, it would be appreciated, just for the recording gentleman and lady over in the corner.

Mr. Butler, when you are ready.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome the minister and your staff here. Let me assure you, I am not here to keep anyone here overtime. I have a few questions to ask and once they are answered we are gone. I do not believe in just being here for the sake of being here.

First I am going to do a few one-liners, Minister. Forgive me, because I have no one to fill in for me, I am all alone.

Under heading 1.1.01, under the Revenue – let me see now, where am I? Under Executive Support - I am sorry, 1.2.01 it is – the Revenue their, Provincial, it was budgeted at $589,700 and it is $321,000. I was just wondering if you could explain the difference there. Then it is up again this year to $589,700.

MR. O'BRIEN: I think the variance is an amount of $268,500, and that is pertaining to a delay in receiving the employer's contributions recovered from Worker's Health, Safety and Compensation Commission. My official can probably expand on it a little bit, but sometimes that is delayed in regard to the transfer, and that is where that variance is to, in that transfer.

MR. BUTLER: Under 1.1.01 - I have found my notes now - with regard to Salaries, 01, under the Minister's Office, what positions or how many would that entail, Minister?

MR. O'BRIEN: How many positions attached to my office?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Attached to my office are my executive assistant, my constituency assistant and myself.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

2.1.01, Trade Practices, under number 01: I think the Salaries have increased there by $155,500. I was just wondering if you could provide details on that one for me.

MR. O'BRIEN: 2.1.01?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, under Salaries.

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask my official to comment.

MS MacDONALD: Winston Morris is the ADM responsible for this branch and he is off on sick leave, so he has asked me to fill in for him. I will attempt to answer for his branch.

Essentially, what the increase is related to is a reorganization that occurred between two divisions a number of years ago, and this is just a rebalancing of salaries. It is more of a clean-up of just salaries that belong to that particular division.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. Fine.

2.1.02, Financial Services Regulation, under the same heading, 01, Salaries, I notice that the budget was $977,000, it was revised to $786,000 and this year it is up to $960,000. I was just wondering - probably there were people going to be hired and they were not hired, and this year it is going ahead, that type of thing?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, you are correct on that. It is variances that reflect savings on vacant positions and gaps within filling and backfilling those positions as well.

MR. BUTLER: 3.1.02, Driver Examinations and Weigh Scale Operations, the same thing, the one under Salaries there, I think there was a difference of $139,500 from the budget to the revised, and that is probably similar to the other questions I asked. Is it the difference in variation?

MS KELLAND: That is normal staff turnover. We had some staff leaving and a normal gap in backfilling those positions, so there are some time delays there.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

3.2.01, Support Services: probably the same answer, but I will ask it anyway; 01, Salaries, the same issue there, I guess?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: It was $1.5 million versus the $1.2 million?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is the same answer.

MR. BUTLER: So it is the same thing?

MR. O'BRIEN: The same thing, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under Revenue there, Provincial Revenue, where it shows $1,804,000, how is that generated? Where does that basically come from?

MS KELLAND: Those are revenues we generate from registration fees for plan reviews. This is an area of public safety, so there are registrations of buildings, of boilers and pressure vessels and those types of things. They generate a certain level of fees every year.

MR. BUTLER: Very good. Thank you.

I will ask this one again, minister, and probably the same answer. 4.1.01, Occupational Health and Safety Inspections, under the Salaries component there it is the same thing. It seems like it was overestimated at $673,600 there, from what was budgeted to the revision.

MR. O'BRIEN: Same answer.

MR. BUTLER: It is basically the same answer.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is basically the same thing.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

4.2.01, the Assistance to St. Lawrence Miners' Dependents: I guess why I am asking this question is you often hear in the media, and I guess like everybody out there they are wondering why we cannot get more and this is the amount we are receiving, and there was $13,000 that was not spent there. When you hear people say that, that $13,000 was not considered to be given to them to increase the amounts that they receive or anything like that, was it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Kim?

MS DUNPHY: There is a list of people who would be eligible to receive the benefit and as people get older and pass away the list gets smaller. That is where that is coming from as well. That is where that difference is.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

5.1.01, Government Purchasing Agency.

MR. O'BRIEN: .01?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: The variance?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. The same thing?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is the same thing, in regard to back fills, et cetera.

MR. BUTLER: Those are all the one-liners I have. Unless there is someone else now, Mr. Chair, who wants to ask something on the one-liners, I will move to some general questions.

CHAIR: I will certainly check. Does anyone else on the committee need anything else confirmed? No? Thank you.

Right back to you, Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Seeing as the last one I ended off on was Government Purchasing Agency – I know a few years ago there was a forum where people could have their name put forward for the various trades and occupations that are involved. Is there anything similar to that now? They would not automatically get work, but their name would be there if something came up in the various divisions or trades that they were involved in. How do they apply now to get in on some of the work that is out around? I suppose I am right there. That was Government Purchasing used to do that, was it not?

CHAIR: No, it was not Government Purchasing.

MR. O'BRIEN: I was going to answer him. No, it is not.

MR. BUTLER: Is that right?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is PSS.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I am sorry, my apologies.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is not ours.

MR. BUTLER: I thought that was where that was at one time. Okay. Sorry about that one.

Under the weigh scales throughout the Province, I know there were some that were closed for a period of time and some I think open now at busier scheduled times. Could you just elaborate on how that is going now and is it adequate what is there, with regards to the weigh scales?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask Donna Kelland to step in, but what I will say is that under Government Services, in regard to being the minister responsible and my executive staff, we are always evaluating and re-evaluating our service to the public of Newfoundland and Labrador. What I am saying is that we continue to review and evaluate. But I will ask Donna to fill in with regard to just exactly where we are.

MS KELLAND: Just for a little bit of background: We have three twenty-four hour seven weigh scales operating on the Island portion of the Province. Those are at Pynn's Brook, Goobies and – oh, help.

MR. BUTLER: Paddy's Pond.

MS KELLAND: I have to think now.

MR. O'BRIEN: Paddy's Pond.

MS KELLAND: No. Foxtrap is actually a partial operation. I will move to the two that we did put some service back into. That was here in Foxtrap where we are running several shifts a week on a random basis so that we monitor the traffic as closely as we can. In Port aux Basques we put back a number of shifts which are tied to the ferry traffic. The other full-time scales are in Grand Falls-Windsor.

MR. BUTLER: The one out there by Goobies, that is part-time too, is it?

MS KELLAND: No, sir, it is a full-time scale.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, that is a full-time.

MS KELLAND: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The lottery licencing program: I know back over the years – I am referring to bingos. I am not saying I do not have a problem with it now, but back over a period of time those major bingos - I forget what they were called now, where they operate. I have one in my district which is open six nights out of the seven per week. Back at that time, I guess, a lot of the smaller organizations lost out by this happening.

I was wondering: are there any problems with the larger bingos now? That if for your department, isn't it? Are they all operating now that the portions of money they are getting are going accurately to the charities and so on?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there is. Kim has some trade practices as well.

MS DUNPHY: I am not exactly familiar with that particular issue. I know, generally, that they do licence the bingos, but with respect to how the money is allocated, I would not be able to answer that. I can certainly get information and get back to you.

MR. BUTLER: Not with regards to how the money is allocated. I know a percentage has to go to charity after their operational costs. I was just wondering was there any complaints basically coming in that it is not being done. Are there people complaining now like they used to in the past?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, all the lottery people or all the bingo and those types of people out there, they are all subject to (inaudible) chair in regards to where the monies go to in regard to the charities, et cetera. That is followed by the department in trade practices. We make sure that they actually allocate the money to the proper charities that have been signified on their application and licencing.

MR. BUTLER: Like you said, there is no concern from the public?

MR. O'BRIEN: None whatsoever. We had no recent complaints at all.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

I notice from the estimates last year, 2007 Estimates, I think the figure given was $110 million of revenue collected from various fees. I was wondering, is that on par or has it gone up or has it declined? I know there were some fee reductions.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is going to go down. It is going to go down drastically, by about $10 million or so.

MR. BUTLER: Is that right?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, but it varies every year in regards to the various fees we have. It depends on the demand, et cetera. Then it varies just a little wee bit, but I think basically over the years it has been standard. Now, in regards to the reduction in fees in motor vehicle registration, this will decrease by about $10 million next year.

MR. BUTLER: Crown land is under yours now, is it?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is not.

MR. BUTLER: That is under?

MR. O'BRIEN: Environment.

MR. BUTLER: That is in under Environment. That is why I am asking that, because I know some of it has changed back and forth. That was there one time though, wasn't it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it was, up until 2004.

MR. BUTLER: I will move that over for our next meeting.

Water sampling, that is through you?

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, it is. Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: That is why I am saying it is complicated, some of the ones I have here; and I do not mind you telling me, no, that is wrong.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is done in conjunction with Environment.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

The inspection part is through you. Is that correct? I know the government has thirty-six officers or inspectors, whatever you want to call them, and back some time ago I know it was said that there were thirty at the present time. I am just wondering if the other six positions have been filled? The word at that time was there was no inspector at all in Labrador. I was just wondering, has that been considered or taken care of or whatever?

MS KELLAND: We do have thirty-five funded positions for environmental health officers, which I think is the classification that you are referring to.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MS KELLAND: Normally, we carry something of a vacancy factor. Right now, just off the top of my head, I believe we have one or two positions vacant. We were successful in filling the Labrador position, which had been a long-term vacancy, just difficulty recruiting to that area. We filled that position last October. We have a three-year agreement with that person in place to retain that person in Labrador.

We have also started a bursary program a couple of years ago to help fund environmental health students at the College of Cape Breton. That will, hopefully, provide us with a future supply of health officers. One of their functions is to do that water sampling for bacteriological sampling of municipal water supplies.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

This young lady is Lori Ann, she is one of our people at our office. She dropped over to provide some company for me.

For instance, where those people are through your department, would you be able to explain how often they do a water sample in the various towns or communities? What procedure is followed?

MS KELLAND: In general, it is based on the population size of each municipality. They do a regular sample, depending on the numbers of people. I am sorry I cannot think of what the actual numbers are off the top of my head, but the number of samples per month range from one to four. It would be four samples in a larger community, and I am not completely sure of the actual population levels. It would be one sample a month in some of the smaller communities, but each community is sampled on a monthly basis year round.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

School bus safety, is that yours? I have to ask them all now. I have nothing to bring up saying there is a problem with the school buses, but after hearing the situation that I guess we all heard of in P.E.I., I think it was similar to all the buses being taken off. I was just wondering, are there any concerns here in our Province? I know they are inspected from time to time, but I was just wondering how often that is done?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have been consecutively, over the last number of budgets, replacing our fleet. We have a lot of new buses. I know in my district, Nova Consolidated. As well, we are going to do a consultation piece in regards to school bus safety. That does not mean the condition of the bus; it is just school bus safety in general, in regards to children's practices and what not within the busing system itself. We have a fairly good fleet at this moment in time. We will continue to invest in the fleet. So we have a pretty new fleet. We do not have an aged fleet like some of the other provinces and jurisdictions have.

OFFICIAL: That was the problem with P.E.I.

MR. O'BRIEN: That was the problem in P.E.I. It was the age of the fleet.

MR. BUTLER: Apparently, a lot of their fleet came from this Province. Is that correct?

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not know.

MR. BUTLER: I thought I saw that. Now, I did not think that to be true but I thought we had the end of it when they came this far.

Why I brought that up about the bus inspections - and don't get me wrong, I am not trying to spread something here. I am not fear mongering or anything like that, but from time to time you hear it when you are out around and you listening to the ordinary people on the streets talking, some people complain: Well, my buses are inspected all that often and this guy over here, his are not inspected. Is that a problem, or is there anything to that? Just to, I guess, put a rumour to bed.

MS KELLAND: Our inspection regime for school buses is they require two inspections through an official inspection station. One is done round about July of each year, and the other is done in December and January. We also do our own inspections of school buses. At least one other inspection is done each year on every school bus in both private and school board fleets. We also do random inspections if we suspect there is a problem or if we get a complaint that there may be an issue. Those complaints can range from police officials contacting us to schools themselves or people who have just a concern. So we do sort of a blended type of inspection system.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. You still have inspectors on the highways in the vans - I will call them, for a better word - outside the weigh scales, people who are travelling and can pull anyone in or whatever, that is still -

MS KELLAND: Yes, sir, we do.

MR. BUTLER: ATV regulations; that was you. I thought it was. I want to make a few comments on this, and I do not know how to say this because I was involved in a - I explained it to the minister - fundraiser in our district. We used to have a run for the Janeway and it was an ATV run. It was not running per se, using your legs, but over a period of, I guess, five years, we raised in the proximity of $400,000. I know the rules on the books back at that time, whether it is two on a vehicle or what have you, but I mean a few people spoil it for everybody. Our run was supervised by the RCMP. We had the Ground Search and Rescue, we had the fire departments. From point A to point B everything was under control. There would probably be thirty-five or forty riders together, a person in front and a person on the back, watching everything like that. It was a family event. The father or the mother would drive, the children were aboard, or maybe a husband and wife. It was a family thing.

Anyway, when all of this happened we had meetings. I called the minister's office and your executive assistant - I think this is the same gentleman - got back to me with some correspondence on it, and also in relation to the Santa Claus parades in our area. I must say, we were pleased to get the information and know what had to happen. I know you cannot be out on the highway going full-speed ahead. I think at that time, minister, or your executive assistant advised me that this - not saying that you are going to change those rules, but the whole thing was being reviewed. I was just wondering if you can give me an update on how that has progressed to this point in time?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

Well, I have an ATV myself, and there are two issues, I guess. One issue is in regards to the operation of an ATV on a public street, a public road. We have to be very, very careful because ATVs - and I have been driving ATVs now for twenty or thirty years, as long as they have been out and on the market. They have, in regards to manoeuvrability and balance, when you have them on pavement they act differently than they do on dirt. So you have to be very careful in that regard, not that we do not grant special permits when it comes to Santa Claus parades and that kind of stuff.

The second issue lies with the second passenger, and the second passengers are in, what I would term, a two-up seat. When the legislation was written back in 1988, 1987, it was written prior to, really, the introduction of those type of seats. I also would like to say that those seats are referred to, when sold, as a rest seat. Therein lies the problem, because when you buy an ATV there is a sticker on it, a warning sticker in regards to carrying a person on back, which would be the rack, really. I believe it does not include the two-up seat, but where the problem lies is that the two-up seat is not referred to as a two-up seat. It is actually referred to as a rest seat. Thus, it is not for a second rider.

Then you have a liability issue in regards to who will be liable if something happened if we were to relax the regulations or change the legislation to reflect and allow the usage of that two-up seat but within that, we are certainly doing a lot of research. We are in consultation with the Department of Justice in regards to the legislation itself to see exactly and have the legislation looked at from the point of view in regards to how one would interpret that piece of legislation because, again, it was written prior to the introduction of those two-up seats.

Also, we are looking at other jurisdictions across Canada, et cetera. As well, we are doing a bit of work in regards to the manufacture piece to just determine why they refer to the seat as a rest seat instead of a carrying two up-seat, because we have to have a look at and see how we can accommodate and make sure that we do not put our government really into a liability issue. If we were to go down that path we have to make sure that we do it, if we are going to do something - but I am very, very cognizant, as the minister responsible, that there are a lot of ATVs out there of that style that have two-up seats that are all family orientated, et cetera. Then, as well, we have to be careful on the liability issue.

MR. BUTLER: Just to add to that, minister, I know there is a bike out now - and this is something that has to be really looked at - I think it is called the moose.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: It has a sticker on it saying you can take someone with you, as long as they are not under the age of twelve. So here we are - there are bikes being sold now, encouraging people to ride two, as long as they are not under the age of twelve. The people out there are totally confused with it.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. BUTLER: That was the problem - the liability issue is why we cancelled the run this year.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Our run was not on a highway, only for about one kilometre.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: And the police let us in there. All the rest was back in the country. I mean, back in the country now - and probably you have seen it yourself, you are a biker - there are people still riding two on a bike back in the country. When those rules were made I think a lot of the bikes in the earlier days were not made for two. Even if they call it an up seat now or a rest seat or whatever, the newer bikes now - I am not very small, but two people can ride those as long as you are sensible about it, and I am sure you will agree with that part of it.

I am just wondering where they are going? When there are bikes out there condoning that you can ride two - it does not say you can ride two. All it says on the sticker - I saw it the other day. A fellow called me about it. It says: as long as the person aboard with you is not under the age of twelve.

MR. O'BRIEN: And I agree, I am familiar with that bike as well.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Very little difference in regards to the frame of the bike, which would dictate the stability of the bike. That is why, when I became the Minister of Government Services, I asked for a review of the policy surrounding the use of ATVs, first. Second, a review of the legislation that would be pertaining to the two-up seat - or if you call it a rest seat or whatever you want to call it - that we find people use as a second rider seat. So, we are in the process of that. I would hope to have -

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, the research.

As I was just about to say, I am hoping to have the research completed actually this month. Then I will be able to sit down with my officials, with the Department of Justice, analyze what I have, and then hopefully make some recommendations in regards to policy, and possibly, hopefully - I am not sure if we can - but recommendations or amendments to the legislation pertaining to that too, as well. Hopefully, by the next session we will be able to do something.

AN HON. MEMBER: After moose season.

MR. BUTLER: After moose season.

The other issue pertaining to bikes or ATVs, again: Is it 90cc or something for the age - what is the age?

OFFICIAL: Sixteen.

MR. BUTLER: Sixteen - can only ride on a bike with 90ccs?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I am sure you know what a 90cc bike is. I told my family that if this legislation ever came in and that was a big issue I was going to bring my grandson in. He does not have a 90cc bike but he is six foot two. He will not be sixteen until July, and I do not know how heavy he weighs but you should see him sitting – we did it one day out in the year, him sitting on a 90cc bike. Don't get me wrong, if there are age limits there are age limits but he can take an ATV better than his father can when it comes to handling the ATV and the law says you can only sit on this little bike. I am wondering if there will be anything looked at along those lines or will that still stay there. You cannot ride those bikes if you are under the age of sixteen, only a 90cc. Is that being considered?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is not being considered in this review. First off, just to clarify, we may very well be able to do something on the ATV issue if it is only regulatory this summer, if it does not require an amendment to the legislation. As you know, if it is an amendment to the legislation we have to have a session of the House to do it. So, we will do that one.

In regard to the age limit and the cc limit there are a lot of things to be considered in regard to the stats, the injuries and thus related to it, because a fair number of the accidents - as I remember, the presentation was related to under the age of eighteen. I went through that because I have been a biker all of my life. As a matter of fact, I just sold a motorcycle, 1000 Hurricane, which is probably one of the fastest bikes ever made in Honda. I bought that when I did not have any regard for my own life to be honest with you.

There are a lot of kids out there who are six foot two who are under the age of sixteen who actually were exactly the same as me, had no regard for their life, no appreciation, I should say, for life, is a better word, and that kind of stuff.

MR. BUTLER: I agree with you on that.

MR. O'BRIEN: So you have to be careful when you open up that door because you will open up a Pandora's box for other things in regard to loss of life and serious injury.

Again, my mind, as a minister, is open and what not to any suggestions, but we continue to have a look at other jurisdictions and rely on some of the evidence that is presented to us. There was strong evidence at the time from various specialists at the Janeway and also at the Health Sciences to certainly support bringing in that regulation. In the meantime, things change as we go along so regulations and legislation is always subject to change.

MR. BUTLER: Dirt bikes, are they covered under the legislation at this present time? What is the rule on that with dirt bikes?

MR. O'BRIEN: They are licensable. The minimum age is twelve.

MS KELLAND: In general, the legislation requires a minimum age of twelve and then there are various similar regulations, but dirt bikes is one area which is not as definitively regulated, if you like, as ATVs or snowmobiles.

MR. BUTLER: So why ask that question? I get back to my (inaudible.)

MR. O'BRIEN: I know where he is going.

MR. BUTLER: I get back to my two grandchildren. Here we have one little fellow, fourteen years old who has a dirt bike. He can turn it inside-out and he can do what he likes on it, basically. That is from my perspective. Here is his brother, who is sixteen years old, who cannot go on the ATV, which is a four-wheeler. I am just wondering: is there legislation going to come? I am not condoning that it should not be changed. I am wondering are there going to be regulations come in, because all too often even young people on dirt bikes have no regard. As you said, you did not realise what you were sitting on when you had your bike. It is only recently in – I should not go into the towns, I suppose, but in South River there were three or four young fellows down in one of the gravel pits and they went up over a big bank of clay, like is in gravel pits, and when they went to go over the other side the other side happened to be washed out, and the little fellow is paralysed today in a wheelchair. I am just wondering: are there things there to – even the dirt bikes. I should not be saying this because my grandson will turn me down when I go home over the weekend.

MR. O'BRIEN: What I will say, from experience, Roland, is that – and the statistics will show –the number of accidents with regard to dirt bikes is very low, not saying that you do not have any, in regards to the case you just cited. Usually, dirt bikers use proper equipment and everything else because they want it all, right? What you find in the ATV world is that all you do is wear a jacket and no helmet and down the road and away you go. That is one of the reasons why you have your accidents, and the manoeuvrability of the bike is different as well. You can pretty well turn a dirt bike on a dime but an ATV or a three-wheeler, back then, is very hard to maneuver.

We are not considering any changes in regard to the regulations surrounding dirt bikes at this particular time, not saying that we will not consider it down the road, because we may very well, in regard to the piece that we may do or may not do in regard to the regulations surrounding the ATV use as well.

Therein lies the difference and that is why it is not so stringent on the dirt biker as compared to the ATVer.

MR. BUTLER: Back some time ago I was involved with one of the RCMP officers in our area and we called a public meeting, and since then the RCMP are meeting in different communities out there. In our area there are so many they are getting arrested every week out there and they are taking their bikes and so on. We had 140 people to the Lions Club at that particular night and I think there was nine RCMP officers came by. I do not know if they thought we were going to have a riot over there or what. The people were there and they wanted to know what was right and wrong. They were afraid to take their bikes out of the yard.

I am just wondering, before you implement any legislation would officials be going out and meeting in different areas, say one in one area of Central and Western, to hear from those people so they can express their concerns?

MR. O'BRIEN: I have no problem with that because, as a matter of fact, road safety and ATV use is all about education in my mind. The more educated that you can make a person and make them realize that they are driving a dangerous vehicle really, when they are on it, is the betterment. You will see a decrease in regards to the accident rate, et cetera, and the injury rate related to that. If we were to bring in any regulations or change in the regulations, we certainly will. In the meantime I do not know if we do an educational piece right now surrounding ATVs. Do we do that on an ongoing basis?

OFFICIAL: There is public advertising.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there is public advertising. In the meantime, I may very well even consider doing some town hall stuff to try to get the RCMP, RNC and even conservation officers to go in and talk about ATV use.

MR. BUTLER: Good idea.

CHAIR: Just to add to that, there is a group, AVTRAC, that you are probably familiar with.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

CHAIR: I know they have spent some time in the schools in Conception Bay South.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is right.

CHAIR: So they have been doing a little bit of the work.

MR. O'BRIEN: The more the better, absolutely. That is what it is all about is education.

MR. BUTLER: My final question is on the educational part. I do not know who it was, someone within your department, I cannot remember now, about the possibility of a new more updated brochure going out explaining the situations with probably ATVs and bikes. Is there anything like that? Like the case I just mentioned, if you have a story on a nice, colourful brochure about what happened to somebody it really settles home, rather than just telling them and not seeing something. Maybe there is a brochure out now I am not aware of.

MR. O'BRIEN: You go ahead and then I will comment.

MS KELLAND: We did a series of brochures and posters, I think it was a little over a year ago, which we constantly are asked for by schools and police agencies, so we keep a running supply going out to them. There is a small brochure on what the rules are and encouraging people to practice safe ATV habits. As well, if you go to most schools you will see, certainly in the higher grades, you will see (ATVS)-Not Child's Play; that poster that you might be familiar with.

MR. BUTLER: I guess you can get some of those from your department.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

I was going to say, and then ask Donna, that the Occupational Health and Safety ads in regard to TV are very compelling, very telling and certainly sits with a person when they actually see them on TV.

MR. BUTLER: I know you were asked questions today about the 15 per cent on the insurance bit. I was outside the House and I saw a bit of the clip when you came in and stood up. I just wondered if you could elaborate on that, if you do not mind, Minister?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, I sure can. What we tried to do with the removal of the 15 per cent tax on insurance was to capture every person on renewal in one year. All of us around here govern ourselves on a calendar year, not on a fiscal year. So that is one of the reasons why we went from January 1^st to the 31^st. Anyone who paid insurance from January 1^st – and what I should say, upfront, as well, is that when you renew your insurance at the insurance company, and let us say if you pay your insurance in full, you pay the full tax in full, correct? When you pay your insurance and you take a payment plan, the insurance company has twenty-five days after the end of the month to pay the full amount of the tax that was collected. In other words, if they wrote up – even if you are paying it out over a period of time, the actual company has to pay the full tax, remit the full tax, twenty-five days after the end of the month. I am pretty sure it is twenty-five days.

MR. BUTLER: After the end of the month, when I renew my policy?

MR. O'BRIEN: Exactly. Let ‘s say yours was renewed in November, right? Then the insurance company, be it Steers or MUNN or whoever you go to, they have to remit the full tax by the 25^th day of the next month, which would be December 25^th. So in other words what the company is doing when you pay it out, when you pay out your insurance, is they are actually extending you credit on not only the insurance but also on the tax piece of the insurance. The tax is related to renewal, not on payment plan, I should say.

In other words, if you were to have somebody in – let us pick a date of June. Yes, June would work. If you had a person who renewed their insurance in June 2007 and they picked a payment plan and they had an up-front payment and then you had, say, eight payments thereafter, then they would be two months into 2008. Then they get a refund on that, on that portion, if we had gone down that path. Then when they renew it again in June, well they do not pay any tax at all. In other words, they get a benefit twice, somewhat. They do not get a full benefit twice, but they do get a benefit twice in that regards.

There is no way to close the loop on everyone. There are always little quirks to it and that kind of stuff, but those are some of the reason why. One of the main reasons why we went back to January 1 and did not extend the pro-rated benefit – you know, if you had renewed your insurance in December or November - was because the insurance company have to pay the full amount of the tax on that month. That is the reason why.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

MR. DINN: I just want to –

MR. BUTLER: Yes, go right ahead, sir.

CHAIR: Yes, go right ahead.

MR. DINN: Minister O'Brien, I had a few queries about that myself, and I even called one of the insurance companies and I called the Department of Finance about it. The way they explained it to me was, if I renew my insurance in November for the year, that is like a contract, that when I renew it again next November, I will get a refund or a rebate, whatever it is, – on the taxes that I paid the year before. That is what they told me. Now that is –

MR. O'BRIEN: I think they are wrong.

MR. DINN: Okay.

I think there might need to be a bit of a clarification out there.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is what I am trying to do. It is tangly.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, it is tangly, yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is hard to understand.

MR. DINN: Because some companies are telling you different things.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. DINN: That is what is going on.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: I was in conversation, actually, today with an insurance company that confirmed to me – because they are subject to the same rules as any business would be, in regard to their tax remittance, and so they have to pay no differently than anybody else.

If they sell $1 million worth of insurance, say in November, well by the twenty-fifth day of December they have to pay the $150,000 with regard to the tax remittance. Then, if they go beyond that twenty-five, they get severe penalties.

So, you will not get a refund.

OFFICIAL: That is not your department.

MR. O'BRIEN: I must say, it is not my department either.

MR. BUTLER: No, that is right.

MR. O'BRIEN: In the meantime, it seems I am getting all the –

MR. BUTLER: The only reason I asked is, I heard you went in on a point of order today.

Now, where am I? Boy, I have not got many left.

I have to go to the poor old Auditor General. The 2007 report outlined significant deficiencies in the Food Premises Inspection and Licensing Program. I know that was dealt with at the time and it was in the media, and everything has been clarified to my understanding.

My question is: how often are those establishments inspected, throughout the Province?

MS KELLAND: An inspection regime is based on an assessment of the technical risk that each establishment presents, and some of those factors include whether or not they are serving a vulnerable population such as a very young or very old population, so various types of criteria are used to assess the risk. At that point a premise is inspected, then, on the basis of that.

A low-risk premise is inspected once every two years, and those would be types of establishments like a convenience store which serves only packaged food. They don't prepare sandwiches; they just have chips and bars, and things like that. A medium-risk establishment is inspected twice a year, and a high-risk establishment is inspected four times a year.

MR. O'BRIEN: Also, I would like to add to that in regard to those numbers of inspections related to the level of the risk. They were set by ourselves, and they are the highest in the country. I see, as the minister responsible, that the system is actually working.

I would also like to say that sometimes - and no disrespect to the Auditor General. I mean, we certainly appreciate an Auditor General. We have a previous Auditor General in our presence, and certainly I always used to depend on my CAs and my lawyer second - my CAs first - in regard to running my business. Sometimes when a report is written up, it has to be written up exactly what happened that day. I will give you an example. The environmental health officer may go in and there is supposed to be a thermometer in a cooler, and the thermometer is stolen or whatever it is and it is gone. Now, they may very well test that cooler and it is at the right temperature, but they have to record that the thermometer was gone, that puts them into a non-compliance issue, right? Then, that thermometer is probably replaced in two hours but he had to write it up as it was gone. No more to it than that. He can only write up, or she can only write up, what they see. That is the way it is.

We have tightened up and, as well, our reporting process, too, but environmental officers are highly trained, nationally trained, and highly professional. They make decisions, and we have a good system.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, when you talk about the high risk - I am sorry, it wasn't you, it was Ms Kelland, or both of you touched on it - that would be probably restaurants, meat markets, and things like that, for the four inspections per year?

MS KELLAND: It depends. There are a set of technical criteria, so there is a scoring system, but it is not necessarily that every restaurant would be a high risk. As a matter of fact, most of them would be categorized as a medium risk, which is a twice-a-year inspection. Some of it is based on the past history of the operation, and what their food-handling practices have been.

Again, a place like a long-term care facility or a personal care home would be deemed a high risk even if they had good food-handling practices, just because they are serving a vulnerable population. A cafeteria in a daycare would be similarly rated.

It is not just restaurants. There is a technical process for making that assessment, so there would be relatively few high-risk premises in the Province all together in comparison to the medium and the low risk.

MR. BUTLER: What would those high-risk ones be?

OFFICIAL: Seniors' homes.

MR. BUTLER: Seniors' homes? Okay.

MS KELLAND: Yes, to some extent, regardless of whether or not they had good food-handling practices. Just because they are labelled a high risk doesn't mean they are risky from the perspective of poor practices.

OFFICIAL: You could have a restaurant that is high risk.

MS KELLAND: Yes, you could have a restaurant that is high risk, just for clarification.

MR. O'BRIEN: Sometimes you see non-compliance issues due to the turnover of staff. Our environmental health officers now – I shouldn't say now – do an educational piece. It is all about education again, no different than Occupational Health and Safety, no different than the ATV regulations, et cetera. You have to educate the people, because when you hire people to work in your establishments - the turnover down at Jungle Jim's in Gander, say, in regard to that staff, it turns over, so then there is an educational piece, too, as well. You might see a non-compliance issue happen just because there was a changeover of staff, but then our environmental health officers will always educate when they are on the premise as well.

MR. BUTLER: Does any establishment know when the inspectors are coming, or is it pop in at any given notice?

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. BUTLER: Absolutely?

MR. O'BRIEN: No warning.

MR. BUTLER: In fact - not only your Administration but in the past - about seven or eight years ago I had an opportunity, and I shouldn't say it was an opportunity, I suppose, but I had the occasion to drop into a restaurant and deliver something and I was told to go to the back door. When I opened the door, it was supposedly the kitchen. I have to say, I think I have seen better fishing stages back years ago than what I saw. I just could not believe it. I am sure there was no one inspected it for about ten years. It was amazing.

It is good to see that those inspections are going on. I know, even if you drop in now, something can change from the time they go there until you leave, so you cannot really come down on the inspectors even though, when you hear it in the media, or the Auditor General brings it out - I shouldn't say anything about Auditor Generals; I forgot our friend was here – but, seriously, you bring that out and, from one month to the other, it would almost have to be on a daily basis or with a hidden camera to see everything that is ongoing.

MR. O'BRIEN: Sure.

MR. BUTLER: I think people have to understand that part of it as well.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely, and that is what we try to communicate as well.

The other piece, too - and I don't want it to be lost on anybody - is that the environmental health officers that we have in this Province are very, very, highly trained, highly professional, and they do a great job. To me, in regard to the Auditor General's report, I see it as a good news story. Our system is working. They are out there, they are actually working, and they are doing it. Like it or lump it, we are living in a real world and you will never have 100 per cent compliance anywhere on anything. They are out there working and they do their inspections. They make decisions and they enforce. That is what you have to do.

MR. BUTLER: Well, they do good work.

OFFICIAL: They do.

MR. BUTLER: I am talking about inspectors. I am talking about Auditor Generals, right?

The other question, I guess, is on the same line, and I think it came out probably in the same report, about the database. He said there were some concerns about the database, and I am sure that has all been corrected now.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I see you nodding yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: A few more improvements, but we have improved it dramatically since then.

MR. BUTLER: Wonderful.

MR. O'BRIEN: Prior to, as well.

MR. BUTLER: Back some time ago, Minister, I don't know if I asked you questions in the House - I think it was - with regard to the Association of Engineering Technologists and the architectural assistants. I know you said you were going to meet with the crowd that couldn't have been included with the legislation at that time.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering if you had met with them, or are you planning on meeting with them? Do you see anything that they can be considered, like they wanted to be, in the legislation?

MR. O'BRIEN: They can't be included in that legislation.

MR. BUTLER: No.

MR. O'BRIEN: They clearly understand that as well; we have been in consultation with them.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, yes.

You have met with them, have you?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. Well, my officials have.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, the same thing.

The Buildings Accessibility Advisory Appeal Board, is that in operation now?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes it is; it commenced yesterday.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, very good. It's a good thing I wasn't going to grumble about it before I asked the question.

They meet periodically, I guess, as the needs arise?

MR. O'BRIEN: Oh, yes. I told them yesterday they are very important to me, as the Minister of Government Services, because sometimes we take things for granted. These kinds of people are on the ground. They know and they see things, so they are very important to us in regard to an advisory piece and a compliance piece. I have buildings, and had buildings, and built buildings, and I am very cognizant of the accessibility. It is very, very, important, and times change, things change.

MR. BUTLER: That is true.

Disability parking permits, that is under your department, too, isn't it?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is us, too, yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know that just about everything in a permit is under your department.

All to often –

MR. O'BRIEN: We charge them for everything.

MR. BUTLER: That is why I asked you how much you are making on the fees, earlier, right?

I know, through the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities, and those who are disabled, from time to time you hear talk about people taking up the spaces. I know that is difficult to manoeuvre, too, but I seem to think here lately it is not as big a problem as it was. Is that correct? What has been done, I guess, to clarify the problem that was there?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is an enforcement piece, right? Yes.

MS KELLAND: There are a couple of issues which we have been having ongoing discussions with the Coalition for Persons with Disabilities about. The enforcement piece is obviously not just ourselves but the police agencies and municipal authorities. As well, we are working with the coalition on issues around the issuance of the permits themselves, and the control of those permits.

We have had some very good discussions with them, and continue that process.

MR. O'BRIEN: And, within the department we accept only zero tolerance - no tolerance whatsoever - so we communicate that to the enforcement people too, as well. We want to enforce that, and we want to enforce it as best we possibly can. So, if there are any violations, there is zero tolerance. It is very important to us.

MR. BUTLER: I only have one other question. This is the hardest one for the evening. When we will hear about the legislation being brought in of mandatory winter tires?

That is the last one I have, Minister. I know you are negotiating with people, and I know you are not going to go to (inaudible) like you said, but it seems like there are more people coming out. I will just give you an example. Even in municipalities in the Province they are bringing it up. I know it is a debatable thing, and we can argue back and forth on it, and all of that. I think in Bay Roberts the other night they were almost fifty-fifty on it, when they brought it up because Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador asked them to consider it.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I wasn't joking when I asked you. I was just wondering if you had any additional time to – I know you had additional time – to meet with other people or discuss with other people outside the Province. I know there is an issue about Quebec. I was just wondering what you have determined so far.

MR. O'BRIEN: Therein lies the problem, because right now, the way we see it, it is kind of fifty-fifty; but, in saying that, as I said before, as the Minister of Government Services, my mind is open. Certainly, too, as well, the safety of the public, as I stated in my opening remarks, is the utmost in our minds.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: We don't have all the information from Quebec as yet, and we are certainly doing the research, internal research, in regard to the issue, too, as well. I will consider doing some consultations across the Province, targeted, maybe, I don't know, or just public consultations, to make sure, because there are a lot of things to be considered. As I said in the House of Assembly, there are a percentage of the people, low income, who will be affected by such a piece of legislation. There are senior citizens who will be, severely, and probably in the low-income status, too, as well. These types of people probably only move their vehicle when the conditions are perfect, so they absolutely do not need winter tires.

Then, the other piece that has to be determined is in regard to - when we go down this path and consider it - is the enforcement side. As you know, you put a set of tires on next year; well, then, are they as good as the all-season that you could have put on that year, because of the wear on the thread, et cetera? So you have to be able to, and have the ability to, enforce it. When do you call it in regard to, your tire is no good, and that kind of stuff? Where are the stats in regard to, where is the line on the tire wear in regard to it being effective and not effective? All of these things have to be considered.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Quebec, as you know, has gone through several years of trying to bring this in. As I understand it, from the few that I have talked to, they actually do not have it figured out, how they are going to enforce it yet, and how they are even going to do it. I don't think it is going to be this year coming up that they are going to be able to do it.

MR. BUTLER: I know, Minister, it is a job to enforce it, there is no doubt about that, because we all know, whether it is cellphones or seat belts or whatever, it is all hard to enforce; but, driving back and forth from Bay Roberts to St. John's now for some thirty-odd years, I can assure you, all-season tires are not all season when you are travelling on the TCH.

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. BUTLER: Whether you are going fast or going slow, it is a tremendous difference.

I understand where you are coming from. I didn't get all sunshine by bringing this up, let me assure you. I had one woman write me from Corner Brook and she said: You can't have a mother and a father because, if you did, you wouldn't – and all this – and you are in bed with some tire dealership or you have a family member that owns a tire dealership.

You hear it all, but it was brought up for the right reasons. I would like to see it implemented tomorrow, but I know that is not going to happen. As long as it is being looked at, like everything else, like the ATVs or the inspections of the restaurants or whatever it is, as long as it is being considered, hopefully one of those days something may happen.

MR. O'BRIEN: Again, my mind is open to the issue. I would consider anything, to be honest with you, just as long as it can be supported by facts.

I stood up in the House of Assembly, I think, to one of your questions, and said it is all about education. You know, you drive to the conditions of the roads. You adjust your driving habits to that. People don't drive in bad weather, senior citizens don't drive in – they probably only move their vehicle once a month, once a week, or whatever it is, to go to the grocery stores, and they are on a limited fixed income, so you have to take these things into consideration, but the bottom line of it is that safety comes first.

You know, I do - and I said it in the House of Assembly - all of my vehicles have four studded tires on them because I spend a fair bit of time on the highway, and I encourage anybody who is out there on the highway and driving in winter conditions to do the same if they can possibly do it. All of those things have to be considered.

We are keeping an eye on the Quebec situation to see exactly what is going to happen there, and how effective it is, and then we will make decisions. Some time in the future we may, and some time in the future we may not, but my mind is open to the issue.

MR. BUTLER: The other issue, I don't know if it is all related to your department but I think it came out in the Auditor General's report about concerns about drivers on the highway with no insurance. I think that was related into his report in some way or another.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know there are hundreds of them out there - there are thousands of them out there - without insurance. I am not saying that it would have to be done through your department, but for the life of me I can't see why, with all the technology we have today, whether it is through motor vehicle registrations or through insurance companies or whoever, that they can't flick in and see if Roland Butler has his insurance this year. Do you know what I am saying? And some means, then - I know you have to have someone going after them, but that is serious. If I don't get my seat belt on, I am going to get a fine for it, and it is only me I am going to kill, but if I am out there with no insurance and I run into someone, their families are affected for the rest of their lives.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I can't believe that we can't get that. I am not pinpointing and saying you guys should do it, but I think there should be something there that can be looked at, and it shouldn't even be considered as a concern. They should be nailed for whatever they are worth.

MR. O'BRIEN: We have closed the loop completely on the commercial side; we have that done. We have certainly put the process in place and the proper checkpoints in place to close that loop. We have met with the insurance brokers and the insurance companies in regard to doing spot audits, but I will say the problem lies within the software itself. The software is what, about fifteen…?

OFFICIAL: The electronics systems are very expensive. Only Ontario would have those (inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: At this particular time it would be only Ontario that would have the ability to do it, because of the software, but we are collaborating with our Atlantic Provinces and Maritime Provinces to see if we can actually do something together in regard to that, to really close the loop on it.

We are aware of it, and we are cognizant of it. It is just that it seems simple to do but it is not as simple as you think it is, in regard to the software that would be involved there. Then, other things that have to be looked at, too, is in regard to your privacy and that kind of stuff, but the insurance companies are certainly working with us on it, I must say. I must commend them.

MR. BUTLER: The other thing, Minister, that just came to my mind when we are talking about educating the public and so on, is the issue that came up some time ago about smoking in cars. I think that came through you.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it came through the Department of Health and Community Services.

MR. BUTLER: Health, was it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: Did you make a comment on that, one day, or something? No? Maybe not.

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. BUTLER: I am sorry.

MR. O'BRIEN: I never smoked in my life.

MR. BUTLER: No, no, not that part of it.

MR. O'BRIEN: But we know what it is.

MR. BUTLER: That is Health; that's okay.

Those are the only questions I have, Sir, and I want to thank you and your staff for your time.

MR. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much.

MR. BUTLER: Unless there is some other member?

CHAIR: Does anyone else have any questions?

No? Okay.

Shall 1.1.01. to 5.1.01., all-inclusive, carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 5.1.01. carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Government Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Government Services carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Government Services carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.