Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Darryl Kelly, MHA for Humber Valley replaces Ed Buckingham, MHA for St. John's East.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Bob Ridgley, MHA for St. John's North replaces Elizabeth Marshall, MHA for Topsail.

The Committee met at 8:40 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (French): Good morning, folks.

Sorry about the wait. We are getting all set up downstairs. So without too much lingering, I think there is another Committee meeting after this one.

First, what I will do, I will call for a motion to adopt the minutes of the Department of Finance, the Office of the Chief Information Officer, and Public Service Commission.

Can someone move that motion to adopt the minutes?

Mr. Forsey, seconded by Mr. Kelly.

Thank you very much.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: It is good to see everybody here and I certainly want to welcome Minister O'Brien. He is looking none the worse for wear, I might add. He is just as feisty as ever.

Without further ado, before I call the subhead and begin with the minister to introduce his staff and have opening remarks, I will ask for introduction of members of the Committee, starting with Mr. Ridgley, I guess.

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, St. John's North. I am substituting for the Member for Topsail.

MR. KELLY: Darryl Kelly, MHA for Humber Valley, substituting for MHA Buckingham.

MR. FORSEY: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

MR. VERGE: Wade Verge, Lewisporte District.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, the District of Port de Grave.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I will now ask the Clerk to call the subhead.

CLERK: 1.1.01 Minister's Office.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

I will now recognize Minister O'Brien, if he wanted to have a few words. He can certainly introduce his group after that.

MR. O'BRIEN: Thank you.

The first thing I would like to do is apologize to the Committee for the delays with regards to these Estimates. I know they were scheduled previous to but for unforeseen reasons they had to be rescheduled, so I apologize to each and everyone of you for being patient with me because I certainly wanted to do my own Estimates rather than have an alternative minister do them.

As you know, the Department of Government Services, which is a service orientated enforcement department of government. We provide many services to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, everything from motor registration on the side of service, to occupational health and safety, environmental health and safety, to school bus inspections, to conflict resolutions, permitting, licensing, and whatever else is there in regards to the services that we provide to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are certainly a public service, have a public service mandate; 70 per cent of our budget revolves around salaries. So we do not have a whole lot in grants and subsidies or anything like that. We have employees across this Province, the big Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, providing those types of services on an ongoing basis.

We have accomplished a number of things over the last years which we are proud of and that is the expansion of Motor Registration Division into Happy Valley-Goose Bay and into Gander, which was lobbied for by both communities for a long, long time. It actually serves not only as a great service to the people there but also it generates the economy as well and it strengthens that part of the fabric of Newfoundland and Labrador, too.

We also signed on to BizPal, which has been talked about in Newfoundland and Labrador for a long, long time. We introduced that in January, I believe, sometime in January we announced that, along with our partners in St. John's, Stephenville and Happy Valley-Goose Bay. That seems to be working well and we will be expanding it in the very near future to other municipalities as a service and an economic generator as well.

I will not keep you any longer. I apologize again for the delays. I am happy to be here and I will ask each and every one of my staff, starting with my deputy minister, to my immediate left.

MR. NORMAN: Dave Norman, Deputy Minister of Government of Services.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, Assistant Deputy Minister for the Government Services branch.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and Safety branch.

MR. TIBBO: Douglas Tibbo, Manager of Financial Operations.

MR. JONES: Scott Jones, Director of Financial Operations.

MS PAYNE: Sonya Payne, Director of Planning and Administration, Government Purchasing Agency.

MR. MORRIS: Winston Morris, Assistant Deputy Minister of Consumer and Commercial Affairs.

MS BRINSON: Tracey Brinson, Executive Assistant to the minister.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess I will start off with Mr. Butler. Mr. Butler, if you want to go fifteen minutes or whatever you so desire then we will turn it over to Ms Michael and we will go back and forth that way. Is everyone okay with that?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, Sir.

When that point is reached you cut me off.

CHAIR: No problem.

We will start with Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: First of all, minister, I want to welcome you and your staff here and to say, sir, you do not have to apologize. We were only too glad to make the arrangements and, I guess, to accommodate so that you could do your own Estimates. It is good to see you back in the House again.

MR. O'BRIEN: I thank you for that.

MR. BUTLER: I am going to start with some questions, minister, and some of them are probably just a follow-up from last year and so on. If I should ask a question that is not applicable do not mind saying that it is not mind, because I might have some overlap but hopefully not.

Last year, minister, one of the questions that came up during our Estimates was in reference to drivers with no insurance. That came forward. I know you referenced about an electronic system. It was very expensive, and I think Ontario was the only one who had it at that particular time. I think it was you, who mentioned that you were working with the Atlantic and Maritime Provinces, and with the insurance companies, probably to work together on this system. I was just wondering, what is the status? Did anything transpire since that particular time?

MR. O'BRIEN: My ADM can actually give you a better update than I can I guess, but what I will say is that we are still exploring the opportunity. It is a very expensive system to put in place.

When we provide a service to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador we have to evaluate the value of it in regards to the cost as to what we would get from it in regards to implementing the service as well. We have put some things in place in regards to the commercial side. We have that loop closed, I believe, in regards to making sure that these commercial operators do have insurance in place.

We are working with the Insurance Bureau of Canada as well, in regards to working with them and doing some kind of spot checks in regards to seeing if people do have insurance. We are working with the different police forces and enforcement officers making sporadic checks as well. With that, we have been moving forward, exploring the opportunity, evaluating it, but again, we have to evaluate it from a cost-effective point of view as well.

If Donna, my ADM, wants to add anything to that -

MS KELLAND: On the electronic side, we have started discussions with the OCIO to look at a replacement for the motor registration computer system. That will be a multi-year project and that would probably be the first place we would look to implement anything from an electronic point of view, but that again will come in stages. So it may still be some time before we are at the stage where we can decide on whether or not electronic monitoring is feasible.

MR. BUTLER: With regards to food inspections, minister, I think last year and since then, probably through Question Period, most restaurants, I think, were listed under the medium risk area. I think they receive a visit approximately twice a year. I was wondering how many restaurants, or were there any restaurants closed in 2008? Were they closed for any period of time?

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not think there were any, to my knowledge. We may have had one, but I will pull that out for you. I will get back to you, if you do not mind.

MR. BUTLER: Not a problem.

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not have that information right here, but I think we may have had one, if not, none. I am not positively sure on that, but the one thing that I will say in regards to the inspection process is that – and I will say this with all due respect to the Auditor General and whoever else audits departments. Certainly, ours from a (inaudible) point of view is that our systems are working. We are in there on an ongoing basis. We identify issues, be it whatever it may be, low risk, medium risk, high risk and our environmental health officers act appropriately.

Some of it can be corrected right at the point, some of it cannot. We close for overnight, whatever it may be, but also I find that the industry itself works with us. I think we have a good industry in regards to the food service industry, but we are an enforcement division of government. We work with the people as well, and I want to put it on the record that we do not only just go in there and enforce; we actually educate, where it does not happen again - or hopefully not happen again. We keep educating and re-educating, and that is what I think works in regard to the system.

MR. BUTLER: Seeing you mentioned the word Auditor General, with regard to the AG's report of 2008 it stated that not all official inspection stations have their annual licence renewed as required by the regulations, and inspection stations are not permitted to inspect buses without a valid licence. Apparently, he listed seven incidents during the 2007 and 2008 calendar years where a licence renewal had not been made by the annual November 30 deadline of that year, and these seven unlicensed official inspection stations performed fifty-four licensed school bus inspections.

Minister, when we are talking about school buses we are talking about safety of children. Like you said, maybe all of this has been rectified and taken care of. I was just wondering what has been done, or what the department has been prepared to do, to look after those concerns.

MR. O'BRIEN: First off, no disrespect to the Auditor General's report. We all welcome the Auditor General's report, because it gives us an opportunity to sharpen our tack in regard to strengthening our department, making sure that our processes and inspections in our department in particular are working.

We have put some things in place on the executive level that ensure that we are doing inspections on an ongoing basis, we are meeting our target levels and whatnot, but when you read the Auditor General's report they are kind of splitting hairs, because they state whatever it is in a certain manner that gives the impression that we did not inspect those inspection stations. In turn, though, sometimes what happens in the process is that we actually are into the inspection station itself but the actual piece of paper does not catch up with it, and we are behind in that regard, so we strengthened that area as well in regard to getting that piece of paper.

What I am saying is that, just because the little card that is on an elevator is not up to date and it does not have exactly - it is out of date at January 2009 and you are in the elevator on February 2, 2009, it does not mean that the elevator is out of service. It is just that the piece of paper actually did not catch up with the actual inspection process.

In the meantime, if I said anything wrong in that regard, my ADM can add some things to it.

MS KELLAND: The licensing process is just an annual registration for which we charge a small fee. Sometimes, if somebody is late in paying their fee, the piece of paper does not get issued, as the minister said; but, just because the paper is not issued does not mean they are not qualified to inspect what they are inspecting, because their mechanics are all certified and so forth. That is more or less a paper transaction that is done on an annual basis, and sometimes there are a few of them that are a little bit late with paying their fees so we do not get the piece of paper out quickly.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe there is already one. If not, is there a policy or are there any plans for a policy and procedures manual to more or less provide guidance, I guess, in all areas of school bus inspection programs, or is there such a policy now?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there is, and we are moving forward now, just getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, in regard to the bus safety project, and some of that will revolve around that, making sure that we have some extra training in place. We are going to buy some extra equipment, and that kind of stuff, and move forward with consultations with regard to that, and make sure that the processes are working, tightening up the systems. Certainly, yes, one part of that is in regard to that manual; we do have it in place now. We are working on it now. I am sorry; it is not in place but we are working on it now.

MR. BUTLER: Still on the school bus issue, I know I asked you a question one day and you gave me an answer and said - and, by the way, when you came back, that was the same incident. I did not think it was at that time.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I think it was listed as human error.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: My question for you now: Were there any further safety inspections done on that bus? Even though it was a human error, was there an inspection done on it, and I am wondering if you can tell me what the results were.

MR. O'BRIEN: That was the bus that was in the accident.

MR. BUTLER: In the Bay Bulls Big Pond area.

MR. O'BRIEN: In the Old Petty Harbour road area, that was a human error one. Did we inspect that bus? Before that bus went back in service after that accident, I think it is policy that we inspect the bus before it goes back after the accident, but I do not have the results. Certainly, it is back in service so I would gather that the inspection was good, but that would go through an inspection before it actually went in service after that accident. That is the usual process.

MR. BUTLER: It was my understanding, even though it was human error, that when that bus was inspected there was documentation saying that there were new brakes, or the brakes were checked I think it was in December, and this was in January or February. I am under the impression that when that inspection was done there were problems with the mechanical part of those brakes. I am not saying that is what caused the accident, but what I am trying to say is: If there was an inspection done in December, was the inspection really done or was it reported properly?

MR. O'BRIEN: I can double-check that. We will double-check that, but I have to say here that we have a zero tolerance policy in place in the Department of Government Services when it comes to school bus safety and the inspections thereof. Usually, if the bus is inspected and an issue is identified in regard to brakes, as I stated in this House - like when you go in for regular maintenance on your car, you expect certain things to be done. When you go to pick up your vehicle, the mechanic might say to you: Listen, your brakes are getting worn, your pads are getting worn, or whatever. You can get them done now or you can get them done three months down the road.

We have a zero tolerance policy in place that if we identify something that has to be replaced in three months, six months, we do not allow that bus to go back in service until they are replaced, and then inspected before going back, and then we make sure, but in this case I will double-check to make sure that our process actually worked and make sure that those brakes were replaced, if they were identified as being worn, the pads or whatever it may be, and we will get back to you.

MR. BUTLER: The other thing, Minister, still on that issue, I am wondering - and I will give you some reasons why I ask this, because after I asked you that question in the House I would say I had calls from five or six bus drivers themselves who are driving for particular companies. I do not want to pinpoint the area too much, but I can tell you it is the Trinity-Conception Bay area. That is a fair-sized area, so I do not want to pinpoint too much.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will make a note of that.

MR. BUTLER: They are asking me, can surprise visits be done? I am not saying there are some not done, but I was even told, Minister, and it is worthwhile for your officials to check - and it is a job to do it. I am not blaming your inspectors, because they cannot help this. You go out and you do an inspection, and you are saying this has to be fixed, that has to be fixed, that has to be fixed, and then you go back and see if it is done. I have been told that parts have been taken off one bus and put on the other one and, as soon as the inspector has passed it, it goes back on the other bus again and they continue on.

Now, that is frightening to me when we have school children on those buses. I think where the drivers are coming from, it is not like one time before when the buses were going on little side roads and what have you, and they were going at low speeds. I mean, you take here in the city now, and with the highways opening up, you are travelling 90 or 100 kilometres an hour. If that is happening – and, I am going to tell you, the people who called me are concerned. They do not want to lose their jobs over it, either; but, like they said, when they go on this bus they are really saying there should be – I do know how it can be done. I know you cannot put people out there and say look, this has to be fixed, and you go back and it is fixed, and then go back the next day and see if it is gone or not. That is a problem as well, but there are things happening, Minister, seriously. I do not know how you can control it, but I can assure you that it is happening.

I am not blaming your officials, because they have a job to do and they cannot be there seven days a week looking at what someone is doing with their buses, but it is a major issue.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is right.

In comparison to the country we have probably the most stringent inspection process in the country today in regard to schools buses. Yes, I acknowledge that these things do happen because we are not living in a perfect world, but we are also endeavoring, as the Auditor General referenced in his last report, to keep up or increase the number of surprise inspections. We have, I think, increased them by 10 per cent now to date.

I will make particular note of the area that you brought into question and we will see what is happening in that particular area as well. I welcome that kind of information. I welcome the information, actually, from the drivers themselves, as well, for the simple reason that you referenced, and you are right, that we cannot be everywhere all of the time. We try to be, but when these kinds of things come to our attention we certainly make sure that we follow up, and we will continue to follow up.

As I said, we have increased our surprise inspections by approximately 10 per cent. We will endeavor to do better and more, and as we do that and bring down the age of school buses, which I think we have brought down by two years over the last couple of years, and we will endeavor to bring them down further, that we will get less and less incidents of this kind, in this regard.

Certainly, I note what you are saying. It is concerning, and certainly we will endeavor to do what we possibly can to correct it.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

ATV regulations, I know you said you were researching and consulting with the Department of Justice, I think it was, and other jurisdictions last year, and stated that changes to legislation probably would take place in the next session, which would have been last fall. I was just wondering, what is the status of that now, Minister?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is a particular area that I have taken a particular interest in, being an ATV person myself. I use one just about every weekend, going to the cabin. There is an issue there, as I explained the last time around, with regard to the stickers that are displayed on ATVs.

In regard to the seating arrangements on the older type ATVs that do not have a two-up seat and have not developed (inaudible) from the factory in a two-up seat, we are exploring that. We are certainly exploring that with our sister department, the Department of Justice. We are also looking across the country. There have been some things happening in Quebec that they have put in place, but certainly it is not conducive to what we need to enable the public who use ATVs in a recreational type aspect. We cannot just apply what they did in Quebec to that, because they have only opened up the second rider to very exclusive trails under the jurisdiction of the provincial government, I believe. We have a lot of trails within the Province that are out there in the country, so we have to make sure that government is not liable.

It is a particular interest of mine, as I referenced last year. It has taken me a little bit longer than I thought, but certainly we are endeavouring to move forward on that, but still making sure that not only is the travelling public, when it comes to ATVs, actually safe, but also that the liability issues are addressed as well when we move it forward.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I know you also said at that time last year that you would consult with the general public, probably with like townhouse sessions or what have you. Do you still anticipate doing that before the final changes are made?

MR. O'BRIEN: I have every intention of doing that as soon as I believe, and my officials believe, that we have enough of information to do that consultation process. I look forward to doing it.

The reason why I have not done it to date is because there is actually no benefit because I know the people in Newfoundland and Labrador, most of them, want to be able to use their ATVs in that fashion, but then I have the responsibility, as minister, to make sure that there are no liability issues there, and also pertaining to the use. Also, the travelling public, and the public at large, are my responsibility, as a minister, in regard to their safety, so I have to make sure that all of that meshes and make sure that we have it all right before we go to the consultation process.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

With regard to Environmental Health Officers, I think the ratio that we were told last year, the large communities get probably four visits per month, and the smaller communities - when it comes to water sampling, water testing, within municipalities. I was wondering, number one, are there any vacancies within those officials? Is that correct, that the larger communities get four visits per month and the smaller ones one visit per month? I am wondering why there would be a difference there.

MR. O'BRIEN: With regard to the inspection process, we use the Canadian drinking water guidelines and they are standard across the country. Also, we endeavour, if there are any problems identified in regard to drinking water, be it whatever community it is, wherever it is in

Newfoundland and Labrador, be it small, medium, or large, whatever it may be, if we have a concern then we are in there. The Environmental Health Officers are very, very professional people. They do an absolutely fabulous job in regard to what they do in Newfoundland and Labrador, in regard to the protection of our people.

In saying that, again, they cannot be everywhere. We can only have so many, and they endeavour to do as best they can. We certainly hold value - this government, and I believe any government, really, certainly hold a value - with regard to having clean and good drinking water for each and every Newfoundlander and Labradorian; but, in saying that, you have challenges there. You have challenges right straight across the country, be it whatever province it may be, but we do follow those guidelines. We are in there on an ongoing basis and certainly, like I said, as well, if we identify problem as you might identify then we are in there. Our Environmental Health Officers are in there very, very quickly to identify any problems that might be to the detriment of our public.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, you are certainly more than welcome to keep going, but if you wanted to take a breather and let Ms Michael ask a few then we can certainly switch gears.

MR. BUTLER: Not a problem, Sir.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to add my voice to that of my colleague in welcoming the minister and saying he did not have to apologize. We were very happy to accommodate because, for us as well, it is much better having the minister who is responsible here before us and not a replacement. I am glad you were able to be here.

MR. O'BRIEN: I appreciate that.

MS MICHAEL: The minister will be very happy to know that almost all of my general questions have been asked by my colleague, but I have a couple of points –

MR. O'BRIEN: You can ask them again.

MS MICHAEL: - so I might as well get these over with and then they will all be off the table.

With regard to what Mr. Butler was just asking with regard to the environmental health officials, could you describe training programs for local officials and volunteers in the smaller communities who are responsible for testing their water systems? It is one thing to say that we follow the national guidelines, but what is done to make sure that training is happening so that those in the smaller communities in particular know what they are doing?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask my ADM to step in on that as well and say that, first off, I want to state that our department is really in enforcement in regard to policy, regulations, whatever it may be – permitting – but I referenced earlier in this session that we also take an active role in educating. Our Environmental Health Officers, our occupational health and safety officers, if they identify an issue then they do not just enforce; they do not just walk away. They try to make sure that people understand the processes that should be in place that would prevent it again.

I think, in regard to the training, it lies within Municipal Affairs; but, in saying that, our Environmental Health Officers, if asked, would actually give information or whatever was needed to those particular people as well.

My ADM can actually have a word to say about that as well.

MS KELLAND: The training for municipal operators is with Municipal Affairs and they work closely with Environment and Conservation, which has the responsibility for water resources. As well, as the minister said, our people in the field will also provide support in terms of interpreting water results and things like that.

We have added six positions since last year, in the form of environmental technicians, to assist with our water sampling program. They would receive in-house training, as well as opportunities that might arise from time to time in conjunction with Municipal Affairs and Environment and Conservation.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. That is helpful.

I think there may have been another area that Mr. Butler was asking about, that I wanted to be a little bit more specific. Just give me one second until I find it.

Under the school bus inspections, I am assuming - Budget 2009, of course, said that there is a new $300,000 to enhance the school bus inspection regime, to improve technical, mechanical aspects of bus operation and enhance inspection capacity. I am assuming, Minister, that when you talked about extra training and equipment that is what that $300,000 is covering. Am I correct?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is actually covering a bunch of things. We have it broken down, a preliminary breakdown on it, with $100,000 there for consultant services, consulting with the stakeholders. I think there is probably $70,000 identified in regard to the development of enhanced programming for official inspection stations. We are also looking at the upgrading of equipment. We are looking at training for the enforcement staff, related to the new bus manufacturing and technology part of it. We will upgrade our inspection database as well, the electronic inspection forms, and we will also have some enhanced training for our operators of the official inspection stations.

As well, we are going to explore the opportunity to replace all of our equipment in regard to the testing of brakes in the Province. As you know now, these are quite old. They were bought in the U.K., they have to be recalibrated in the U.K., and as you probably suspect that is a process, because of the time frame that is involved there in regard to shipping and then receiving, that sometimes we actually receive the equipment back into the Province just about to the date that it has to go back again. So we have a policy in place that we start from the day that we actually receive it.

Now there is new equipment available in Ontario that we can purchase and we can recalibrate or send for calibration, to have recalibration done, and in about a two to three week period we have them back in the Province.

In saying that, in regard to the old equipment, we have a policy in place that we move them very, very quickly now. We have three sent now for recalibration and then we will use these ones as a backup to the new ones that we may buy under that school inspection piece of the budget on that issue.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much. That detail is really helpful.

I might as well ask the one more general question I had and get all of my general questions out of the way. It has to do with the removal of the 15 per cent tax on insurance that came into place January 8. I do not even know if this is your responsibility or if it is another department's responsibility, but do you know the status of companies? Did most people get the tax that should have been refunded, people who paid for 2008 prior to this coming in?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask my director.

MR. MORRIS: We have received no complaints from consumers that they have not received their refund. Initially, when it happened, there were a number of complaints that the refunds were not received immediately, but it took a while for the companies to get all the refunds processed. As far as we know, everyone has received the proper refund.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. I am sure if they did not, you would have heard.

MR. MORRIS: I am sure.

MS MICHAEL: Or MHAs would have heard.

Okay. Thank you very much.

That takes care of my general questions, so now I am going to do that boring thing of going to the line by line because I have some questions in those areas.

There he is. Let's see. Just give me one second here now to get myself organized.

Okay, the first one I would like to go to is 1.2.03.07 under Capital: Administrative Support. In 2008-2009 only $135,000 was allotted for Property, Furnishings and Equipment, but in actual fact that was revised up to $605,000 and this year the estimate is also much higher than the estimate last year, $470,000. Could you give us an idea of what is being covered under this category?

MR. O'BRIEN: (Inaudible) the purchase of twelve new vehicles. If you remember back in Budget 2007–2008, I believe that is the one, we had a number of positions that were approved in that budget. Some of them were, I think six EHO technicians, field staff, but we decided at that particular time we would evaluate, if they needed vehicles to be out in the field, if we could use ones that were in service already. If that would be cost effective and effective in regards to what they needed to do in regards to their jobs and the inspection processes thereof. It was found that these positions, they needed their own vehicles. So that variance is pertaining to the purchase of twelve new vehicles at a cost of $350,000.

There is some printing equipment there too as well, at the cost of $120,000.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. And this year you are anticipating new vehicles as well, because the budget has gone up from last year's estimate.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we are, and that is the normal process. The lifespan of a vehicle is what it is in regards to their safety and we have to purchase eleven new vehicles. That is just a thing that we have to do.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, thank you.

Under the Revenue, subhead 02., the provincial revenue, you seem to have an unexpected revenue on the provincial side. What would have attributed to that? What can we attribute that to?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is pertaining to recovery of expenditures in the OHS program from workers' compensation in regards to the purchase of replacement vehicles as well.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

Under 2.1.03. Commercial Registrations; under this category for this year you have $289,300 budgeted for temporary positions. What are the temporary positions in this category, in this heading?

MR. O'BRIEN: You said 2.1.03?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, subhead Salaries, and looking at the temporary positions in this area of Commercial Registrations. You have $289,300 budgeted for temporary positions. What are the temporary positions in this area?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask my Consumer and Commercial Affairs person.

MR. MORRIS: Most of those temporary positions are related to what we call a transition team. We are in the process of digitizing our registries from a paper based to an electronic based. We have a team of people who will be on staff for several years putting these in digitized format. So that is why they are temporary.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. At what stage is that, Mr. Morris, in terms of the year span that you are talking about?

MR. MORRIS: It is difficult to say exactly how long it would take. We have been at it now for about two or three years and we anticipate probably another up to five years before it is all completed.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Under subhead 07. Property, Furnishing and Equipment, last year the estimate was $34,900, you spend $18,400, but this year there is a major jump to $384,900. What are you anticipating in this area?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the increase in regards to Moneris fees. That people now are using the Internet, their debits, their credit cards – oh, you talked about property and furniture.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay. That is the office relocation down on Elizabeth, from the present position downstairs here in the East Block down to Elizabeth Avenue.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: Sorry, I took the wrong line.

MS MICHAEL: That's okay. Which building on Elizabeth Avenue is that going to be?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is right next to Parkdale. It used to be the liquor store.

MS MICHAEL: The old liquor store, right. Yes, a couple of departments are moving there, I think, aren't they?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, just us.

MS MICHAEL: Just you?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, just us.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

It just happened, I bumped into somebody today in another department who told me that they were moving and that is where they were moving. So their worker must have the wrong building.

MR. O'BRIEN: They better not be!

MS MICHAEL: I will tell you afterwards who the department was.

For the most part I am not questioning salaries because I do understand that with the 8 per cent and the extra pay period next year, I know that most of them there is a jump, but every now and again I might ask because it may look to me like perhaps there is also a new position involved.

In heading 3.1.01.01, Salaries; in actual fact, I think the increase there for $104,300 probably is all the 8 per cent and the extra pay period.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is in that, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, okay. Thank you.

Under this area we do have a higher amount for temps as well, $330,600. What are the temporary positions in this area?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to ask my ADM.

MS KELLAND: Most of those would be long-term temporary positions. We are now looking for a review of those to see whether or not they could be converted to permanent. There are no transitory-type of positions. Those are mostly long-term temporary. They tend to be on the clerical side. We are having a review done of that this year to see whether or not some of those could be converted.

MS MICHAEL: We might hope to see that number reduced for next year, the number of temporary positions?

MS KELLAND: For temporary salaries?

MS MICHAEL: Yes. It is something that I have been asking of departments, and I have noted that some departments are starting to do what you are starting to do. It would seem to me that if they are long-term temporary positions that are always going to be needed, then the question is backed. Thank you very much. This is just for curiosity, so I fully understand everybody's budget.

In subhead 10., Grants and Subsidies, what would be the nature of grants and subsidies in this area?

MS KELLAND: We do some minor grants to organizations, such as Safety Services Newfoundland and Labrador, for things like motorcycle testing, some for bicycle helmets, the program they have there called lids for kids. So there are some minor grants there.

Last year, we had a one-time piece there for a national conference that we held last year. So that was just a one-time -

MS MICHAEL: And that is probably the reason why the amount has gone down this year?

MS KELLAND: That is correct, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I think all the questions I may have had related to 3.1.02 have been asked in the general questions. So I will just keep going here.

Subhead 3.2.01.01, under Salaries; there is a high increase in salaries in this area, $909,800 more estimated in this budget than last year. Could we have an explanation of this area, 3.2.01?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we actually had a new division that we set up and there is some transfer of staff into that division.

MS MICHAEL: What is the new division?

MS KELLAND: We re-established a program in Support Services division last year to provide provincial coordination. A number of positions were transferred out of Regional Services into Support Services, just as an administrative type of function, and some of the new positions that we had in 2007-2008 for that purpose were filled or fully brought in, salaried last year. In the previous year there had only been partial funding for those positions. It is sort of an incremental type of increase there, but most of those would be transfers from other areas.

MS MICHAEL: Right, okay. Thank you.

In Transportation and Communications, the estimate for this year is $100,000 more than the estimate for last year. Is this due to greater personnel transportation costs? That would be my guess, but I will let you answer and tell me what it is.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is certainly right. It is the realignment of the staff and the creation of a new subdivision. It is all pertaining to increase in expenditures for travel for that division.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

In Purchased Services, which is subhead 06., you have $361,000 more estimated than last year's estimate. Is that also related to the new division?

MR. O'BRIEN: That actually represents reduced operating funding, approved funding for lease increases, and also the transfer of funding for jobs adds to PSC as part of the government wide initiative to centralize advertising for recruitment.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. So this division will be taking over the advertising.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

In 3.2.02. Regional Services, I note that the revision, under Salaries 01., was a downward revision of about $900,000 and this year you are back up again. Did something happen with recruitment or something in that area?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, over that period of time we experienced some vacant positions but they have been addressed, most of them anyway, or not all of them. Certainly, we are back up to the normal level.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

I think that is all. I will let my colleague take over now, he has questions.

CHAIR: Okay, sure.

Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, how many environmental health officers do we have in the Province at this particular time?

MR. O'BRIEN: Thirty-five.

MR. BUTLER: Thirty-five. How many highway enforcement officers do we have, approximately?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have twenty-two, if I remember right. I know everyone personally by name. If you believe that, I can say anything in this House.

MR. BUTLER: You will have them on my doorstep now looking out for the buses, won't you?

MR. O'BRIEN: You got it.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, the Occupation Health and Safety Advisory Council, is that currently active? How many meetings do they probably have per year?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: How many meetings do they have a year, approximately?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have had two already and we are planning another one again. They are very competent people, very beneficial to the department and to that division, giving them advice in regard to what we need to be providing to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Since I have been the minister there has been, as we just referenced, two meetings already and another one in the process of being planned.

MR. BUTLER: So they do not get a whole lot of issues coming forward?

MR. O'BRIEN: Not a whole lot.

MR. BUTLER: They are not all that active, we will say.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, but they give us a fair bit of advice too.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, the division of Occupational Health and Safety within your department, do they be involved in doing inspections of fish plants with regard to air quality or the issue we hear often, crab asthma, or what have you?

MR. O'BRIEN: We do. I will ask my ADM, Kim Dunphy, to explain.

MS DUNPHY: Yes, we have actually an Officer III who is assigned to the fishing industry, who would assist in developing protocols and procedures and frequencies of inspections for the general officers in fish plants. We also have industrial hygienists who are involved in the issue of crab asthma and in assisting in helping to deal with the ventilation issues in various plants to help minimize the exposure of workers to the contaminate that often triggers crab asthma.

We are very much involved in that, and also we are very much engaged in research around the science behind it, because the science is also still developing in terms of what it is in particular that causes the problem and triggers the asthma.

MR. BUTLER: So I guess the FFAW and Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador, where there are plants, they work in conjunction with you people as well, probably, from time to time.

MS DUNPHY: Not so much the municipalities, but very much the FFAW and SafetyNet at the university for research, and our experts that we have identified in the field, particularly in relation to crab asthma.

It is a complex issue, but we are working with the researchers to help find practical solutions for fish plant operators that protect workers as well.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

How many marine vessel inspectors are there in the Province, and where are they located?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is not ours. That is federal. We do not even do it, right?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: No, we don't do marine.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: There is one position?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: We used to have a marine inspector some years ago, but that position was converted to a technician position. It has to be reclassified. Mainly what they are involved in now is the review of building plans of vessels, not in regard to marine actual inspections, no.

MR. BUTLER: So, like you said, that is all federal when it comes to inspections, but you were involved at one point.

MR. O'BRIEN: We were involved at one point in time.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, I know this is probably not your main focus but you are involved with it, and that was the new TODS program that was announced recently. Why I am asking you this question - I heard you on as well about it - we get quite a few calls about it. People are concerned about the signs that are on the highway. I am sure you will agree, some of the signs are very expensive and there are more of them that should be down. More of them should have been down for ages because the businesses are no longer in existence, so some businesses are calling. There was a deadline, I think, some time in June?

MR. O'BRIEN: June 8.

MR. BUTLER: Will all signs have to be down, or just the ones that are up that did not go through the regulations initially?

MR. O'BRIEN: June 8 is the date that we will move forward on the Trans-Canada Highway first, and the main trunks off the Trans-Canada Highway as necessary, wherever else there may be a sign in the Province.

The signs that will be removed at this particular time will be signs that were never permitted in the first place, regardless of what they are, and the ones that do not meet the actual policy and regulations pertaining to the signage. Because some were actually given a permit, but when they actually placed the sign it did not meet the regulations pertaining to their permit. Those are the kinds of things that happened over the years, so those types of signs will be removed, and anything that does not pertain to tourism will be removed as such, as the first wave.

Anything pertaining to the industry itself will remain and can remain until the TODS system is in place, implemented, in the next couple of years or so. I will be honest; hopefully it takes less time than we anticipate because (inaudible) in regard to my own travels, it is a very professional, very informative system of directions and it works very, very well worldwide, across the Atlantic Provinces, so hopefully we will see the industry operators move in that direction very, very quickly, where we can actually clean up our highways, as you reference, and make sure that they are appealable to the people who are visiting our Province on an ongoing basis, and the increase in regard to the tourist industry that we have seen over the last number of years. I think we are doing a commendable job, each and every one of us, in regard to promoting our Province as a place to come and visit. Now, that does not just apply to the Department of Tourism; that applies to us as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

MR. BUTLER: So, Minister, are you saying that eventually when everything, the TODS program, is totally implemented, we will not see any of those signs, regardless if they have met the regulations or not?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, you will not see any signs in regard to billboards and whatnot in regard to Crown land, but if you were to travel in other provinces, in other jurisdictions, you might see a sign of here but that is actually on private land.

Now, there are some regulations pertaining to that, in regard to how they have to be placed, but in regard to the placement itself they can be placed on private land. You will see that. I know one here, actually, that will be there after it is all said and done, because I was involved in the sport, and that is the St. John's Rod and Gun Club. I believe, and I am pretty sure, that is on private land.

I was heavily involved in the Rod and Gun Club for years and years and years and years. I wish I had the time to do it now, but I do not. I am pretty sure, as indicated by Lorraine, that it is on private land. There is nothing we can do with that one.

MR. BUTLER: So, Minister, coming in the TCH where the Manuels River crosses out, there are some pretty expensive and flashy-looking signs. I love looking at them. What type of sign will we see in that area to depict that there are boat tours up the shore, or whatever is ongoing? What will be on this new sign that is going to draw people any more than what is there now?

MR. O'BRIEN: People, when they travel, as I travel, and I think the general tourist who travels around the world, look for certain things. They do not look for that flash. Some of them are very, very nice, but that is not what draws it to them. They identify, you know, with: I want to do kayaking; I want to do whale watching; I want to do this; I want to do that; I want to eat here; I want to try this and I want to try that. So they certainly, in regard to that TODS system worldwide, will look for that finger sign saying this, that, these and those, and they read it very, very quickly.

I would venture to guess, and it is only a guess on my part, that when you have the clutter of signs out there, regardless of how flashy your sign might be, they are very hard to take in as you are driving. Certainly, I would venture to guess that people lose business because they are not in the program of a professional TODS system that identifies their business: Bang, they got it! –and they have it all.

That is what you are going to see, Roland, out there: a system that people identify with, that people recognize, and I think it will work very well even though, yes, there is apprehension in regard to those signs, and they are nice and they are flashy and people have them out there. I understand that as well, but I think as we move forward, as proven in other jurisdictions, they will find that they will actually buy into the TODS system. As a matter of fact, they will identify their own selves that they would prefer to stay there, if we were to move into a billboard type system again and let people do whatever they wanted to do in regard to our highways. They would rather have it. As you have seen in regard to Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador, and you have also seen Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, they bought into it in regard to this program, big time.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I will not say every year, but just about every year, I travel through the Maritimes, I go down through New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine. I have yet to see either one of those provinces or states that are totally with this TODS system. I have seen the odd sign. I have seen signs up - and I can guarantee you they are not all on private property - from picking berries to whatever. To me, if I was driving in the highway - and I know where you are coming from – and I see the picture with a whale coming out of the water, and I can go up the Southern Shore and I can see this, or if I can see this beautiful sign with a little boat there, that looks like a little dinky or something, where is it that this system is totally in place and there is nothing else on the highways?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am not going to answer that and give a guarantee, but I have done some extensive travelling in Europe over the years and it is well used and well recognized in Europe. Not so much in North America.

I have been down through New Hampshire, down through Connecticut as well, many, many, times, and Virginia. I go very single year and you do see billboards; but, again, there is a fair bit of private property there that you might think is state owned or Crown land that is not really. When you look into it and drill down, it is actually private. Over in P.E.I. is a good example of that. There is a lot of private property over there and you will see billboards. They might look like they are right on top of the highway or whatever it may be, but they are actually private land holdings. You cannot control that. As well, there will be cases that we cannot control either. So I venture to guess that you will see billboards in Newfoundland and Labrador as well, at some point in time, but hopefully we can actually clean up the system enough that it is palatable to the travelling tourists who is travelling to our Province to the point that it is actually professional and certainly aesthetic to our environment and our scenery.

CHAIR: If I could just add a point there, just as a personal - I recently read somewhere that the biggest complaint tourists have, coming to Newfoundland and Labrador, who drive throughout the Province, is signage. Whether they fly here and rent a car, or they come across on the ferry, it is their biggest, number one, complaint. It shocked me, to tell you the truth about it. I did not realize it, but that was the number one complaint, that we get a consistent signage system throughout the Province.

MR. BUTLER: Did you say the people who drive here or the ones who fly here?

CHAIR: Both.

MR. O'BRIEN: Both.

CHAIR: Both, because when they get here they rent cars and go wherever, the same as the people who take ferries across. It surprised me.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that information is collected by the Department of Tourism and Recreation and that is the number one complaint.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I know you are not surprised about this. I am going to move from TODS now to tires. I just want to quote the statement that you made last year during our Estimates. You said, "Again, my mind is open to the issue. I would consider anything, to be honest with you, just as long as it can be supported by facts."

Minister, a year has passed and I think the results are in. I am wondering: Have you considered mandatory winter tires since that particular time?

MR. O'BRIEN: I will say it this way, Roland: My mind is still open. I am not really, positively, sure that the actual results are in because I am waiting in regard to our sister province, Quebec. They implemented, finally, in this season. I think that came into effect in November. We have no data, as such, in regard to any decreases of accidents pertaining to, or not pertaining to, the use of winter tires.

I will also say here that, yes, in certain situations winter tires are good, but in other situations winter tires actually are not as good as some all season tires with regard to rain, heavy rain, and slush. That type of data is there as well.

I also have to take into account what we are going to achieve in regard to mandating winter tires. When you mandate something you have to evaluate how many of the travelling public are actually using winter tires now as compared to what you are going to capture if you actually mandate it. That is first of all, what do you achieve there?

The other piece is that, in regard to achieving that, how many people are you going to put into a financial hardship, particularly people living in an urban area, or even a rural area, who use their vehicle once a week or once a month, in ideal conditions, to go and pick up their groceries? We have that, as Lorraine has referenced and championed for as long as I have heard her in the House of Assembly, in regard to people who find themselves in poverty or whatever it may be. They deserve the same rights as all us Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, but they might not be able to afford that set of winter tires as we would.

I have to take that all into account in regards to the evaluation process, and that is what I do, but again, my mind is still open. I am not absolutely convinced that the results are in until I see some data out of Quebec. They are the only province now. There are other provinces that have considered but backed off, big time, in regards to mandating winter tires too. They are finding the same thing as I am finding that there is a portion of the travelling public or public that only moves their vehicle once a month, whatever it may be. Also, most of the public who are out there travelling on a daily basis on our highways actually have winter tires on. So you have to evaluate that as well and make sure that when you do something that you are going to get the value for what you are actually mandating.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I agree with you to a certain degree on one comment, not about the winter tires bit now, but you mentioned the possibility of people not being able to afford it. If I had to look at that side, I definitely would not have brought it up because there are probably more people in my district who cannot afford it than what it is who can afford it, but I look at it totally from a safety perspective, the same way with the school buses. Maybe some of those operators cannot afford to put the new brakes on them, but still and all it is the safety of the children that is at play.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: That is where I come from with this issue.

Anyway, I thank you for your response again, minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: If I could add too, as well. What I have endeavoured to do, as a minister responsible, is educate. Because I think you have to educate, educate and re-educate. We have to be out there in the various media sources, be it Open Line or be it whatever it is, and you have heard me trying to educate people, that if they are travelling, if they possibly could afford it, well then they are better off with winter tires.

In saying that too, even if you mandate, and you referenced in regards to a couple of issues. If we were living in a perfect world there would be nobody speeding on our highways today, and the Highway Traffic Act sits with me, but I can tell you right now that there are people speeding today, and you might have been one of them this morning on the way in, I do not know. You never (inaudible) but what I am saying is that regardless if you mandate or not, you will have people - and we have to enforce and we cannot be everywhere – who will travel without winter tires on. Now, that is a fact. You only have a very small percentage who do not have winter tires that travel on a daily basis on our highways as well.

In saying that, if the data was conclusive coming out of Quebec, or wherever it may be, that convinces me as the minister, if I am still the Minister of Government Services, well then we will move forward in regards to a recommendation to Cabinet and then that is where it will be dealt with in regards to mandating winter tires. My mind is still open.

MR. BUTLER: I agree with you about the monitoring bit, whether it is seatbelts, drunk drivers or whatever, but if an accident should happen and the winter tires are not on. Do you know what I am saying?

MR. O'BRIEN: I worry. I hear you.

MR. BUTLER: Just a couple, not that many I do not think now, the one liners, and if they have been touched on by my colleague forgive me.

3.1.02. Driver Examinations and Weigh Scale Operations.

MR. O'BRIEN: 3.1.02?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, 3.1.02. I was going to ask about the salaries but my colleague mentioned it. I know what that is now; it is the increases and so on. I am just wondering, on that particular issue, how many weigh scales are operating in the Province at this present time? Some of the ones that were closed, have any of those reopened?

MR. O'BRIEN: We opened up Port aux Basques and Foxtrap on a partial schedule. We have three full-time and two part-time. So a total of five, three full-time and two part-time.

MR. BUTLER: 3.1.04. National Safety Code; not with regards to the actual figures that are here, whether it is in salary or professional fees, but I was wondering if you would just explain the National Safety Code Program. Does that include inspections like buses, like DRL or different venues like that? Is that what falls under that particular heading?

MR. O'BRIEN: Mainly, it lies in regards to commercial vehicles and the harmonization of the regulations thereof across Canada, like weights and measures and that kind of stuff. That is what the national code, and we follow the national code in regards to that. We try to harmonize where we have a transition. If a transport truck, or whatever it may be, carrying heavy material can actually transport and move efficiently across the provinces without having to meet regulations that are different in one province to the next. So mainly what the National Safety Code is that in regards to harmonization piece –

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) detailed audits.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, and the detailed audits of commercial operators too, lies within the National Safety Code.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

3.2.02.01. Regional Services, under Salaries. I know the budget last year was under spent by approximately $908,000. This year there is an increase of $854,000. I was wondering, is that job losses from the previous year or would that be new positions created this year with the increase there?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, that is the creation of the new division and the transfer of staff. We have created a new division.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, that is the one you mentioned earlier –

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I am sorry. Which one? Oh, that is the vacancies. We had a huge turnover in regards to that particular – in the regions, and we had a turnover and a vacancy rate there but that has been corrected (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: 4.1.01. Lorraine, you let me know if you asked this one.

MS MICHAEL: No, I have not asked this one.

MR. BUTLER: Under 02., the provincial revenue increased last year by almost $300,000 and I was wondering, that is a significant amount of money, where does that revenue come from that is listed there?

MR. O'BRIEN: In regards to the provincial revenue, there is a variance of $278,000 which is time delays in receipt from workers' compensation because Occupational Health and Safety is supported in their budget from workers' compensation. Sometimes there is a delay in regards to that money transferred. Also, there is an increase of $294,000 which represents revenue from increased expenditures.

Correct? Kim, what is –

MS DUNPHY: Yes, the Occupational Health and Safety branch is fully funded by revenue from the Workers' Health, Safety and Compensation Commission. So at the end of a year there is a delay in receiving that money back from the Commission. It is billed out on a quarterly basis.

The increase is also representing the additional that we would require for our 2009-2010 Budget. So it is just additional money that would come forward for, like salary increases or whatever that increase would be. We would just get that additional revenue coming from workers' compensation.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

4.2.01., that is the Assistance to St. Lawrence Miners' Dependents.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under 09. Allowances and Assistance, the total money spent in Budget 2007-2008 on assisting St. Lawrence Miners' Dependents was, I think, $53,000 back at that time. Last year it was $56,000. I was just wondering, does the Aluminium Company of Canada, are they committed to any of this funding or is it all provincial funding? They give so much to the –

MR. O'BRIEN: No, all government.

MR. BUTLER: All government, okay. Because where it says there, "…as per an agreement with the Aluminum Company of Canada." I thought there was some agreement with regards to them helping with this, but it is not?

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. BUTLER: It is all provincial.

The last one I think that I have is 5.1.01.01. Government Purchasing Agency, under Salaries; I think it was under spent last year by approximately $500,000 and this year it is increasing an estimate of $371,000. I was just wondering if you could explain that, why there was an under spending last year? Maybe it is a transfer again like -

MR. O'BRIEN: The same thing again, vacancies and staff turnover, delays in regards to corporate services and the procurement and reform initiatives which affected eight positions not being filled at that particular time. That has certainly been addressed on a go-forward basis and that is where you see that variance to, $507,200.

MR. BUTLER: I think that is all the questions I have, Mr. Chair.

I apologize, I did not introduce my colleague here from our office, Elvis Loveless, and I want to thank you minister and your staff for the opportunity again this morning.

MR. O'BRIEN: I thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.

CHAIR: Ms Michael, do you have some more questions?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I do. I just have a couple of small ones. I will follow suit and introduce Ivan Morgan, who is also a researcher from the NDP caucus office, and sorry I did not do that before.

Just some minor ones, 3.3.02. Queen's Printer.

MR. O'BRIEN: 3.3.03?

MS MICHAEL: 3.3.02. Queen's Printer. A curiosity more than anything I guess, but under revenue, expected revenues from the Province, work that is done for different departments I guess this would be. It was done quite a bit. Is there any explanation for that, because we are still budgeting? So you must, on a usual basis, more expect around the $325,000 because you are leaving it there.

MR. O'BRIEN: We are certainly going to evaluate that on an ongoing basis and you may very well see a decrease in next year's budget if we find that the same thing is happening. We think that it is possibly due to the easy access to the Internet now that we are not getting the requests in regards to printing jobs, and less copies of the legislation is sold now because they can download it so easily. So if that continues, you might very well see a decrease in that budget line in next year's budget.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you. I was thinking it might be something like that. So, thank you very much.

3.3.03.04, the next category, under Supplies, you estimated $499,400 in Supplies, you spent only $320,000 but you are still keeping the budget up at the $499,000 for this coming year.

MR. O'BRIEN: Actually, the same answer.

MS MICHAEL: The same answer?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, the Internet.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, you do not need to repeat it.

I think Mr. Butler asked the questions there, the St. Lawrence Miners. When it comes to the St. Lawrence Miners' Dependents, about how many people does that represent now? The $56,000, do you know? I am just curious.

MR. O'BRIEN: I actually cannot answer that question because it lies really within the Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment.

OFFICIAL: We do administer it.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do administer it? Okay. I will ask my -

MS DUNPHY: I do not have the actual number, it is a small number. It is probably in the thirties to forties, maybe fifty, but it is obviously decreasing as people pass away.

MS MICHAEL: It is a small amount of money per person.

MS DUNPHY: And it is very small amounts. We can get you the actual number if you require -

MS MICHAEL: No, that gives me an idea. If you are talking forty, fifty people then that is a very small amount of money that they get.

MS DUNPHY: It is a very small amount on a monthly basis.

MS MICHAEL: Right, and that has never been changed I guess. It has not been indexed. They just have always gotten the same amount of money.

MS DUNPHY: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, I am just curious about that.

In 5.1.01.05., the Government Purchasing Agency, Professional Services, the budget is going up by $200,000 this year. What are you anticipating there?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is pertaining to the hiring of a consultant work related to the procurement reform that I have ongoing. I have referenced in the House in regards to reviewing the Public Tender Act and procurement and modernizing it. That is where that is all pertaining to, is the hiring of a consultant and other professional services.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Well, thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the minister and his staff for the helpful answers and look forward to receiving information that has been asked, either by my colleague or myself.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Michael.

MR. O'BRIEN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Mr. Butler tells me he has one more question.

MR. BUTLER: Another question, just for clarification.

I asked a question earlier, how many highway enforcement officers there were and I thought the answer was twenty-two.

MR. O'BRIEN: We are not positive of that. I will check for you.

MR. BUTLER: I will tell you why, the copy that was in the AG's report, it shows that there are fifteen and in the Estimates of Salaries it shows fifteen. I was wondering, is that seven new individuals that have come on only recently?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am going to have to get back to you on that. I am going to have to apologize. It is somewhere in between the fifteen and twenty-two, but I am not positively sure.

MR. BUTLER: That is okay. I am not going to hold you to it, but I was just wondering about it.

MR. O'BRIEN: We certainly will get back to you on that one.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I thought there were seven new jobs only recently.

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess I should thank the Committee for being the last Estimates for Government Services Committee. Ironically enough, we ended with the Government Services, Department of Government Services.

I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01. to 5.1.01. inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. to 5.1.01. carry inclusively?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.0.1 through 5.1.01. carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Government Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much again.

I guess without any further ado we will adjourn the Estimates Committee meeting until next year.

Could I have a motion?

MR. FORSEY: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Forsey, seconded by Mr. Kelly.

It was a great delight.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.