Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Vaughn Granter, MHA for Humber West, substitutes for John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming.

Before we get into the subheads, we will start with some introductions. We will start on this side of our Committee.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. LODER: Terry Loder, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MR. GRANTER: Vaughn Granter, MHA, Humber West.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, MHA, St. John's East.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, Baie Verte-Springdale district.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

Minister, I guess you can introduce your staff or have them introduce themselves. Also, you can probably take a couple of minutes if you want to present your department in some way before we call the subheads, if you want to do an introduction sort of thing.

MR. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I guess I will have our staff introduce themselves beginning with my Deputy Minister.

MR. NORMAN: David Norman, Deputy Minister.

MR. HENDRY: Wayne Hendry, Director of Procurement with the Government Purchasing Agency.

MR. JONES: Scott Jones, Departmental Comptroller.

MS BRENTON: Barbara Brenton, Director of Strategic Human Resources Management.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and Safety.

MR.CONNOLLY: Doug Connolly, Director of Financial Services Regulation.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, Assistant Deputy Minister, Government Services Branch.

MS HEWITT: Valerie Hewitt, EA to the minister.

MR. DONNAN: Hugh Donnan, Director of Communications.

MR. HARDING: I am Harry Harding, Minister of Government Services and Minister Responsible for the Government Purchasing Agency.

Mr. Chairman, I guess I would like to begin by saying that, as you probably know, I sat in that chair where you are for eight years chairing the Resource Committee and I looked across at this chair from time to time and I kind of think it was much more comfortable where you are than where I am today, but anyway, I am certainly pleased to be here and I welcome the Committee.

This department, as most people know, is not one of those departments with barrels of money where you have MHAs coming to you all the time looking for a share of it. It is completely different from that. We are more or less a regulatory department which delivers citizen protection services to the public in areas of public health and safety, environmental protection, occupational health and safety, consumer and financial interests, and in the provision and preservation of vital statistics.

In addition, through the Office of the Queen's Printer, the department provides printing, micrographic and digital document services for government and the general public, including copies of provincial legislation, the Newfoundland and Labrador Gazette, and select documents and books.

The department was created with the aim of consolidating, where possible, the licensing, permitting, inspection and regulatory functions within government and providing a single window point of access to the public for those services. The past few years we have been doing that, as some of you may be aware. We consolidated services out in Grand Falls-Windsor, in Gander, and we are currently doing the same thing in Corner Brook. In this year's budget, as we go through it, we will see that we do have a fairly large sum of money approved for us this year to consolidate the services here in St. John's.

The authority to carry out the department's mandate is derived from over 175 pieces of legislation and related regulations, standards, and codes of practice. The operating budget for this year is $46,179,600.

The Department of Government Services employs approximately 513 employees and it is well balanced gender-wise with 240 males and 273 females. They are scattered throughout thirty-two offices around the Province.

The department is comprised of three branches: the Government Services Branch, the Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch, and the Occupational Health and Safety Branch. We are also responsible or accountable for nine public entities in the Province, including the Government Purchasing Agency and the Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation; both of which report independently to the minister, each prepare independent business plans and annual reports.

The Government Services Branch provides a variety of services internally to government and externally to the people of the Province. This is companies through the branch's six divisions: Government Services Centres, Program and Support Services, Motor Registration, Engineering and Inspections, Vital Statistics, and the Office of the Queen's Printer. The Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch regulate consumer protection and provincial financial services throughout the Province. That branch is comprised of four divisions: Financial Services Regulation, Commercial Registrations, Consumer Affairs, and Pension Benefit Standards Division.

The Occupational Health and Safety Branch protects the health and safety of the Province's workforce through the development and enforcement of Occupational Health and Safety legislation, inspection of workplaces, incidents, and the investigations of workplace complaints, serious injuries, and fatalities. Occupational Health and Safety enforcement is a compliance-based program where severe penalties can and have been filed for failure to meet statutory or regulatory obligations regardless of whether the non-compliance resulted in an injury for purposes of insurance considerations by the Workplace Health and Safety Compensation Commission.

Occupational Health and Safety activities are an essential public service contributing to the general well- being of society by protecting the rights of workers to work in a safe and healthy environment. The value of the program is evident by reduced injury and illness rates in work populations and contributes to reduced cost to health care, social services, and worker compensation systems.

The Occupational Health and Safety Branch is comprised of four operational units: the inspections section, Occupational Health, Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, and standards and regulatory development.

In our 2011 budget, one of the key expenditures this year – and I mentioned it earlier – is we have been allocated $2.3 million to co-locate the Avalon Regional Government Service Centre headquarters, which is currently at Mews Place here in St. John's. We are moving that to the Motor Registration Division in Mount Pearl. The co-location will strengthen the one-stop service approach for accessing a wide range of direct government services for residents of the region, and this will be done then under the same roof.

The department is constantly striving to deliver better and more unified services to customers throughout the Province. Our goal is simple, and that is to bring to the people of the Province efficient and responsive programs and services and to oversee the administration of safe and healthy work environments.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. Now, I look forward to the questions and comments from the Committee and we will do our best to provide whatever information we can.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before we call the subheads, when you are responding to questions, whether it is staff or whoever is responding really, it would be nice to let us know your name for the purpose of recording and Hansard. If you can remember to do that it will be greatly appreciated, if not then we still stay here. You will not get penalized for it or anything.

I will ask for the subhead for Government Services.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

I guess we will begin with you, Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Sir.

First of all, I want to welcome the minister and all of your staff, and to say, Sir, you feel just as comfortable in that chair as you did in that one because there is not going to be a big upheaval here this morning. Usually I go into the probing questions first, but seeing I am here alone this morning I will probably ask some of the one-liners, and a question leading into the same information that is on the one-liners might be in a probing question and there could be others besides.

The first one, Minister, and it is no great deal amount of money, but 1.1.01, Minister's Office, under 06 Purchased Services. I know it was budgeted $18,800, revised to $5,000 and up to $18,800 again. I was wondering, what was the decrease and what purchases?

MR. HARDING: Yes, the decrease of $13,800 that is a reduction in expenditures, mainly for advertising. That varies from year to year.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Heading 1.2.02, Strategic Human Resource Management, under 06 Purchased Services; I know the figures are fairly steady around $320,000, I was just wondering what particular types of services these were?

MR. HARDING: That is number eight?

MR. BUTLER: Number six, I am sorry.

MR. HARDING: Purchased Services, okay.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: You are talking about the variance from – you just want to know what they cover.

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering what does that entail.

MR. HARDING: Okay. This one is mainly for money that we spend on training our staff from time to time.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I know there are different ones. If that is the case probably a lot of those are the same. For instance, in 2.1.03 Purchased Services again, I was going to ask the same question. I guess that is the same thing is it? That was under Commercial Registrations.

MR. HARDING: That is the $640,700?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. That is probably the same thing is it, as the other ones?

MR. HARDING: Yes, I will pass that on to Scott Jones.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. JONES: You are looking at 2.1.03. Commercial Registrations, Purchased Services, correct? Is that where you are right now, wondering what was there, or did I jump ahead on you?

MR. BUTLER: 2.1.03, yes.

MR. JONES: Yes. The Purchased Services there is from (inaudible) fees, where we use debit machines but we have to pay a fee to the vendor for the usage. That is the bulk of what funding is in there.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Another one there, Motor Vehicle Registration, 3.1.01.05 Professional Services; in 2010-2011 it was $100,000 revised to $22,100 and there is nothing budgeted this year, is my understanding there. I was just wondering if you could give me an explanation on that one.

MR. HARDING: Yes. There is a variance there of $77,000. That was for funding for hiring external consultants. During 2010-2011 the funding was used to do a study on weigh scales in the Province. That was a one-time thing.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: This year we are not budgeting anything for that.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to Motor Registration's computer system, Government Services was engaged in talks to replace the Motor Registration computer system in, I think it was 2009. Last year the minister said it was an ongoing project and would cost between $14 million and $20 million to replace. He stated that it should be brought forward in the next budget. I was just wondering if you could give us an update on the status of that, please.

MR. HARDING: Actually, the estimate has been revised now. It is more like $25 million to replace that system. Work is still continuing on that and a number of things mentioned by the Auditor General in his report were sort of administrative things, information management things. The system is still being upgraded but there is still a lot of work to be done on that, but it is continuing through OCIO.

MR. BUTLER: It will be a while yet before it is totally implemented?

MR. HARDING: Yes, it will be. Yes.

MR. BUTLER: This is one I brought up in the last four or five years and seeing as this is my last year here I am going to bring it up again, mandatory winter tires. I know from the questions last year, the minister stated he did not have a closed mind totally on it but he did say that 80 per cent of the travelling public use winter tires and they were still waiting on a study through Quebec. I was wondering, since you have taken office, Minister, what have been your views on this? Has anything been followed up on the study that the former minister was anticipating?

MR. HARDING: Well, I am of the opinion that winter tires are safer than regular all-season tires. In fact, I have always changed over mine every fall to winter tires. Having looked at the results of the survey that was done that you alluded to, there was over 85 per cent of respondents who said that they do use winter tires. What sort of surprised me was that in the St. John's area that percentage was more like 92 per cent of people in and around St. John's use winter tires.

The survey also indicated that a number of seniors who were surveyed, most of them said they use their vehicle a lot less during the winter. When they do, they are more selective as to when they take their vehicles out; like on bad days they will not move their vehicle. Because of those things, I am still of the opinion, too, that where that percentage is so high it does not seem to be fair to regulate any more than what is already there and force those people into spending money – a lot of them might be seniors - that they do not have.

With respect to the information coming from Quebec, I am not sure if we have received it. Donna, would you know?

MS KELLAND: (Inaudible).

MR. HARDING: No, we still have not received any information from Quebec as to the results of what happened over there when they regulated the use of winter tires.

MR. BUTLER: First of all, I want to say it is encouraging to hear you say that winter tires are far better than all seasons. I think the study you referenced here in St. John's would say that people in St. John's, 92 per cent of them, I think that is another excellent straw in the hat for winter tires because driving around the city we know the inclines and different things are in here and those people would not be having them if they thought summer tires were just as good.

MR. HARDING: No.

MR. BUTLER: Because they are definitely not just as good.

MR. HARDING: I just want to add to it a little bit too, I do not know if you heard it but CBC had an interview with Viva Canada in December of this past year and their results showed that Newfoundland and Labrador had the lowest number of accident reports, claims, than any other province in Canada. They sort of attribute that to where we are more conscious of using winter tires than other parts of the country. That is a good indication, too.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe with it brought forward in the media all the time we will get to that 100 per cent one of those days without making it mandatory.

The other thing, I think, Minister, that really sets into people's minds is the advertisements on the radio or television where you extended the season for studded tires. People are saying: Look, there must be something to all seasons. If studded winter tires are going to be extended, what am I doing with all seasons on? I think that is what is making more people come onside and purchase winter tires.

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the seniors you mentioned, that is unfortunate, because in the city they only go out when there is good driving. You can leave Mount Pearl and end up down in the East End of St. John's and be in a blizzard in one place and sunny skies in the other. I hope they do not use that all of the time as a reason for it.

The other question, ATV regulations, I keep going back to this one. If you go through the minutes of all the Estimates, every year I ask this one. In 2007, the department stated that they would bring in new ATV regulations. As a matter of fact, you probably remember, we used to have what we called the Run for the Janeway in the Conception Bay North area, where we would have 700 and 800 four-wheelers come in and raise funds. We have raised I think, in five years, close to $500,000 for the Janeway.

Then, a couple of individuals went out and unfortunately – I have to watch what I am saying here because I do not want to sound too nasty about it – caused accidents on the highway. The police always came into our community, led the parade on the main road so they could get back into the country; a family affair, two people on a bike, even though we know the regulations on the seats on the bikes as well. I am just wondering, the minister stated very clearly that he is an avid rider himself - the former minister I should say, not you, Sir - that he was really going to get into this, there were going to be public consultations on it. The last I heard was the concern was that government could be liable if they went with the regulations and legislation that they were planning on. I am just wondering, where does it stand today? Is the department looking at coming up with legislation on this? Whether it be negative or good for the general public, that is immaterial, I am looking at the safety side of it. Where it has not been brought forward, is it a fact – I am not saying the minister lied to me about this, but is it a fact and has justice ruled that there is a major concern because of possible liability?

There are a lot of questions there, I am sorry about that.

MR. HARDING: Yes. Well, first of all, generally we are all concerned about the safety of people riding these ATV machines. One thing we are doing is continuing with our education program of ATV safety: It's not child's play! That is continuing every year. On that one we emphasize the importance of kids, especially those under sixteen years of age, that they should wear a helmet. We are encouraging everyone to do that. Not to drive on public highways, not to drink and drive, and anyone sixteen years or younger must be accompanied by an adult. These things we are pushing all of the time and we have noticed that there has been a reduction in the number of ATV accidents with people under sixteen, even though we have had a number of them again reported this winter.

Something else we have done, we have increased the maximum fine for careless driving. That has been increased from $500 to $1,000. That is a move to discourage people from driving these machines improperly. That is for a first offence. Also, for not wearing a helmet, we have increased the fine there as well from $200 to $400. For more serious infractions, such as driving while impaired, we have increased the fines from $500 to a minimum of $1,500 for first offence. Those are some of the things we have done to try to encourage people using these ATV machines to use them in a safer manner.

I would also like to add, I was really encouraged in the last few days to have heard the Mayor of CBS, Mayor French, say that they are enforcing the use of ATVs within the community of Conception Bay South. I am really pleased to hear that kind of thing that municipalities are taking this on too, to try to make things better overall.

MR. BUTLER: I am glad you mentioned that because that was my next question, with regard to CBS and where the town has stated they are going to do that. I was wondering, with regard to the CBS T'Railway, is government going to step up there or go in conjunction? Because I think that is outside the municipal boundaries or something, the trail that goes through, I thought I heard him say the other day. Will government be doing anything to enforce the laws there?

MR. HARDING: I do not know who is more familiar with that. Donna?

Certainly, wherever we can make this safer for the use of everyone who is using the machines we will do whatever we can, but I just want to check and make sure that –

MS KELLAND: The enforcements on the T'Railway itself would generally be the RCMP, RNC. I am not sure if your question was about enforcement.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I was just wondering, where the Town of CBS, they say they are going to enforce the laws on their own roads. I was just wondering where the T'Railway – because he said the other day he had no control over it. He was wondering would government step up, but like you said, the RCMP and the RNC are the ones who enforce it on this T'Railway.

MS KELLAND: Right and municipal police officers can be delegated as peace officers under the legislation. They also would have some enforcement capacity. I am not sure about the boundary issue, particularly.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: I think, too, Mr. Butler, that the wildlife officials, enforcement people, I think if they come up on drivers on these machines who are in violation of the regulations, I think they have the power as well to enforce the regulations.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I guess this is why from time to time I have been bringing up the new ATV regulations. It has not been all that long ago the community or the Town of Garnish on the Burin Peninsula came out with a rule where they were going to allow bikers, not to ride the roads, but to give them permission on certain roads where they could go from point A to point B to get back into the trails. Now we hear of another town, and rightly so, that is going to control it in their town. So that is why I was wondering about the legislation, to make it consistent across the Province. Next thing you are going to have someone say: Well, they can run up and down our road.

I was just wondering: Where does government look at this? If there is one town saying we are going to allow it to go on a public road to get from point A to point B to get back in the country, and someone else then is saying, look, we are going to enforce the laws here and we are not going to have that. I think that is where the legislation would play a key part.

MR. HARDING: I remember what you are saying about the Town of Garnish. I am not sure, after, if they were really permitted to do that, even though it was within their boundaries. I know there was an issue came out of that, but I thought that was the result of it. I am not really sure.

MR. BUTLER: It could very well be. So you are saying they were not allowed to do it what –

MR. HARDING: No, as far as I know, after that was what they were confronted with. Now, the end result, I am not really sure of how it turned out. I know there was some confusion for a while over that.

MR. BUTLER: Inspections: I know that issue came up yesterday during your ministerial statement. I think you got up on a point of order and wanted to know would I release who I was referring to and who they were. I want to assure you, Minister, it was not a political intention on my behalf. The only things I ever bring to the House are what I hear from the public in my area.

I will be honest with you. I will not release the names of the companies or the individuals who gave it to me, but I can assure you it came from good sources. The area would be from Carbonear possibly up as far as Brigus and Georgetown area. As a matter of fact, one of the calls even came from another bus operator. It may be someone who only has two or three buses – and you can verify this for me right here now. What they are telling me is when the inspectors come, they call ahead and say: We are coming tomorrow, we are coming next week, or are you ready for us next week? When they come in, if someone has eight, ten, twelve, or thirty buses, all of those buses are not inspected during that visit. I can understand that, but the fellow who probably only has two buses, his two buses are inspected. They are saying: Look, it is not fair. There could be things wrong with those other buses.

Some of the parents bring it forward and they are expressing it as a concern for their children. At one time, the bus was only going from point A to point B in any area of the Province within one little community or whatever, but now, they are travelling on the Veterans Highway out our way and so on, and I guess it is a greater concern.

My question is: Inspectors, do they call ahead and say that we are coming to do an inspection?

MR. HARDING: Certainly, school bus inspection is something that we are all concerned about. Anything we can do to make improvements there we should all be a part of it. We have 1,277 school buses registered in the Province. We conduct a minimum of three inspections a year; two of these inspections are done by authorized inspection stations throughout the Province. These inspections are done in July and December. That is certainly when the buses are more or less out of service. These inspections are done to national standards. They are not our inspections; they are done to national standards that have been incorporated into provincial regulations.

When that inspection is done on a particular bus at that time, within fifteen days, they have to report the results of it to our department. We also do our own inspections through our own highway enforcement officials. That is done a minimum of once a year and more in a number of cases. We try to do at least 10 per cent of these inspections unannounced. Last year, we ended up doing over 30 per cent unannounced. We go to these places and they do not know we are coming.

With respect to when we do call ahead, because, as you know, we cannot just go out any time at all and stop a bus when she is in service; that is just not practical at all. When we do call ahead to pre-plan an inspection, if there are ten buses there and we can do two at that time, we designate the buses that we do the inspection on, not the owner or operator of those buses. That is done all the time. When we go into a place, we say we are going to do this one and that one, we pull the plates on it, and those two buses are there until the complete inspection is done.

I found it kind of strange yesterday when you said that you heard from people who said that when we go in the operators say: Look, take those two here. Is that what I thought you had said?

MR. BUTLER: Generally, yes.

MR. HARDING: Yes, but that is not the case. I did not know where you were coming from on that because when we go into a centre where there are buses, we designate the buses which we are going to inspect at any given time.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Do you do inspections like in personal care homes or some of these seniors' homes - I call them - around the Province or is that through another department?

MR. HARDING: Probably Health and Community Services, I would say.

MR. BUTLER: Your inspections do not have anything to do with that, we will say?

MR. HARDING: No, not as such – do we? To some extent?

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, ADM for Government Services.

We do health and safety inspections in personal care homes through our environmental health program on behalf of the Department of Health and Community Services. That would be an annual inspection just for general sanitation, cleanliness; those types of conditions. We also do fire and life safety inspections on a regular basis for those types of personal care homes and long-term care facilities.

MR. BUTLER: It comes down to the same thing. Now maybe there are other people who do inspections too, like probably Health and so on. I have had calls on the same issue, that there is a call placed – and I can understand that having to be done, like the minister said, with the buses; you have to call and see if there is anyone around, I suppose, to go there.

The same thing with an institution or a home where a call went ahead beforehand, twenty-seven people there – now maybe this is outside of your realm because you would have mentioned what you would inspect. Twenty-seven residents, one staff member on, but when the call comes saying that we are coming to do an inspection, there are six or seven there working. Now that is probably outside of yours, but, basically, it is the same thing regardless of what government department it is.

It is a concern, or to me it is anyway, to know that there are twenty-seven residents and in an evening there is one person there running around looking after them. When a call comes saying we are coming to visit, there are seven or eight other people hired on. It is basically the same story with the inspections. Minister, I am not making this up, I would not lie to you. I have known you too long for that. I am not trying to place you in an awkward position. I am not saying all your staff does not do their job, I am sure they do their job.

The other question is when you said you used to do 10 per cent and now it is 30 per cent unannounced –

MR. HARDING: That was just last year, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. What were the results when it was unannounced versus the other way, or would you have any stats on that?

MR. HARDING: I do not know if we do have anything on that. I would not know that anyway, but it would be interesting, just the same, to see. We can certainly check any records that we do have. If there is anything like that, we can provide it to you. As well, to the NDP, we would do the same thing.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, excellent, Sir.

Subhead 3.2.01 - I will go back to the one-liners now; I do not have an awful lot, Sir.

MR. HARDING: Okay.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.2.01, Support Services, subhead 09, Allowances and Assistance. I noticed there was $154,000, revised to $85,000. I was just wondering: Why the nearly 50 per cent decrease and the same amount is budgeted for again this year, approximately?

MR. HARDING: That is $154,000 down to $85,000?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, Sir.

MR. HARDING: That expenditure is revised by $69,000. That is reduced funding requirements as a result of fewer students in the publicly advertised bursary program, which varies from year to year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 3.2.02, under 06 -

MR. HARDING: Purchased Services?

MR. BUTLER: - Purchased Services, I noticed it was budgeted $80,000, revised to $150,000 and it is approximately up to that again this year. Why was the increase there from $80,000 up to the $150,000 in 2010-2011?

MR. HARDING: There is a reallocation of funds there. You will notice it is further down below, too, in 07 – I mean 06, Purchased Services, in 3.2.02.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: There was a reallocation from that of there down to there. Down in 06, in 3.2.02, there was an increased expenditure for vehicles repairs, training, and costs associated with reallocation of two offices in Clarenville and Marystown.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Subhead 3.3.01.05, $252,000 budgeted, revised to $250,000 and nothing under the Estimates for this year. I am just wondering if you could give me an explanation on Professional Services there.

MR. HARDING: The year before, that $250,000 was a one-time expenditure. That was for a birth to death linkage project. Someone can probably explain that to me. It cost $250,000.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, ADM for Government Services. Yes, I can help with that.

That was part of a three-year project that we had to electronically record death records back to 1946. Most of those had been paper transactions before 1973, so that was the end of the project just this past year. We recorded all of those and we linked them with birth records then to be able to match up records when someone dies so that we nullify their birth records as well.

MR. BUTLER: Very good, thank you.

Under the same heading, because you mentioned about some offices and that - sorry, under 3.3.01.07, Property Furnishings and Equipment, it was $6,000, revised to $80,100.

MR. HARDING: That was a variance here of $74,000 roughly. That was the purchase of new computers, monitors and scanners for the Vital Statistics staff.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: That was done also in conjunction with a project from the federal government.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 4.1.01, Occupational Health and Safety Inspections, 01, Salaries; I could have this wrong but I think it is a decrease of $781,000, we saw decreased last year, and now we are estimating more than the original estimate. Is that correct what I am saying here? Yes, budgeted was $4 million, revised as $3.2 million and this year it is up to $4.2 million.

MR. HARDING: Yes, that was a variance, as you say, of roughly $780,000. That was the result of a normal turnover of staff, vacancies, and there was some delayed recruitment as well in that division, particularly with respect to hard-to-fill positions.

We have positions now, up in Labrador especially, that we find really difficult to fill because mainly of the competition we have with the private sector. The pay up there with IOC and Wabush Mines, certainly, is fairly high in relation to a lot of government-paid jobs. So that is an area where we find we really have difficulty in finding people to fill. I think there is one vacancy up there now, is it, that we are still trying to fill.

MR. BUTLER: What type of positions would they be, Minister?

MR. HARDING: Occupational health and safety inspectors.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: Last year, too, we also found that overtime was somewhat less than what it had been previously. That varies because you never know when you are going to be called out to an accident to investigate. That is up and down every year, depending on the number of accidents that we have to go to.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, back some time ago there were three temporary employees who were recently not hired back. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a bit. Our understanding was that this work was still ongoing and was not complete, even though they might have been hired as temporary. I was just wondering: What system is in place now to carry on with the work that those individuals were proceeding with?

MR. HARDING: That was an initiative that the Department of Government Services took on themselves three years ago. They decided that they wanted to have their workplace the best that it could be. They started a review of the occupational health and safety situation within the department. They hired three people at the time, the people you are talking about, on a temporary basis.

These people were told, when they were hired, that they would be hired for a three-year period to help to help review the occupational health and safety situation within the department. Not only our department as well but the other social government departments within government: Municipal Affairs, HRLE, Education; there were six or seven altogether.

So these people sort of did the groundwork for this study. In January of this year, the three people again were told that their employment would be terminated at the end of March because the work that they had been hired to do have been pretty well done. The remaining work after that was done, and could have been done, by our own people in our department.

In addition to the three that we had, we also had two people from the Workplace Health and Safety Commission who were part of that survey. These people too, helped to complete the final report. Actually, the full activity plan as we go forward has not been done and the determination of where we stand in respect to occupational health and safety regulations. What we have now is sort of baseline that we can use. Next year there will be another review done to compare with how much progress we have made with respect to occupational health and safety issues within the department. It was a department initiative for our department and we also end up doing it for a number of other departments as well.

MR. BUTLER: The other departments and agencies are pleased with it? To the extent it went and the programming they had in place, their people can carry on their own as well? You are saying your department can finish it off, but like the other departments and agencies.

MR. HARDING: Yes, I understand they have pretty well done the same. There are health and safety committees in every place now and training is done when needed. I know one thing in particular in the scoring, how things were done on the scoring part of that; they went to six of our office locations on the Avalon and during the inspection in one of the buildings one of the emergency exit lights happened to be out of order. That was classed as noncompliant. Something like that would bring down the overall score. Those kinds of things were corrected pretty well immediately.

Also, another determinant factor in the scoring was they interviewed a number of staff people, both management and unionized workers within the department and asked them different questions with respect to health and safety and those kind of things. These were all factors in the overall scoring of the results.

MR. BUTLER: I could be wrong, I do not have it here in front of me, but I believe it was the AG who came out and said the program was only in 50 per cent compliance. I am wondering, if you are saying everything is fine there, what was the Auditor General referring to or where is the mixed messaging?

MR. HARDING: Yes. It is kind of difficult when you make a statement like that to really justify it unless you know how the actual scoring was done. It was done in three categories. If you had full compliance on a particular item you would get say one point, if it was partial compliance you would get half a point, and if there was no compliance then it was classed as zero.

I think there is something like 160-something different questions they ask employees, and look at different parts of buildings and that kind of thing, overall. To take an example, if there was 90 per cent compliance in all of these you would not get 100, you would only get a maximum of fifty because it was only classed as partial compliance. Anything partial compliance, even though it might have been 90 per cent, you would only get half a point for that. That brought it down, and I think it was 54 per cent or something –

OFFICIAL: It is (inaudible) percent. It was done by workers' compensation; it was not the AG -

MR. HARDING: Yes, and this was done by workers' compensation.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Heading 4.2.01, that is under the St. Lawrence above ground miners' probing question here.

MR. HARDING: Okay, yes.

MR. BUTLER: This year the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Act was amended to compensate above ground miners from St. Lawrence and their descendents from mining related illnesses. I was wondering, how many have applied for this under the new legislation or the new agreement?

OFFICIAL: We do not know.

MR. HARDING: We do not have that statistic here now, but we can certainly get that for you and ensure that you do get it, as well as, like I said before, the NDP.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. Thank you.

MR. HARDING: On the little variance in that one you mentioned there 4.2.01, that is because the number of claimants is down from the previous year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 4.2.02.10, Grants and Subsidies; I was just wondering if you could explain. It is not an increase or anything; it is the same $16,500 right through there. That is just for promoting occupational health and safety, is it?

Okay. I am getting a nod from the minister, so it is okay.

MR. HARDING: It is okay, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 5.1.01.07, Government Purchasing Agency, there was $1,700 budgeted, revised to $125,000 and this year it is estimated at $1,700. I guess that is a pretty straightforward answer but I will still ask it anyway. It must be something new you are going on with there.

MR. HARDING: Yes, it was. It was sort of unanticipated expenditures that we had. We purchased new photocopiers to replace the outdated machine that we had there before.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: Also, there was some modular furniture purchases included in that figure.

MR. BUTLER: When you know what the topic is $1,700 is not in the budget for any breakdowns, is it?

MR. HARDING: Yes.

In that office, we had Corporate Services move to that particular office last year -

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: - which brought seven new employees, so most of this modular furniture expenditure, that is where it went.

MR. BUTLER: I have two other questions, I think, Minister. One is on regulation of real estate agents. That is for your department, I think, isn't it?

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that comes back to the AG again, he has found that the Financial Services Regulation Division has neither requested financial information from agents nor conducted any reviews since 2002. He went on to say however, out of ninety-two licensed real estate agents only forty provided such statements. I was wondering if you could give me an update on that, what is happening. Since then this is probably corrected. What action have you taken to come up with a set of policies and procedures to correct that?

MR. HARDING: I know one thing we have done there, we have implemented a new financial reporting process, and the AG made reference to that in his report.

With respect to the other issues, it is an ongoing thing. We are still making improvements as we can. That was one area in particular that needed attention and we have given attention to it.

MR. BUTLER: The last one, Minister, is to do with boil orders. I know we asked this question last year and I think your department, in conjunction with Environment and Conservation, get involved there. I think you both do certain inspections on drinking water. I was wondering, could you provide an update on how many boil orders we have, or would that be totally through the other department? How do the two departments work together on that important issue?

MR. HARDING: We are certainly involved with that issue. As of May 9, 2011 there were 215 boil water advisories in place. There are 164 communities affected by these boil water advisories. One hundred and ninety-eight of the 215 are for non-microbiological reasons, such as: no disinfection system, there are forty-two in that category; the system was turned off, there was twenty-three in that class; the system was broken, there were forty; there were operational problems with seventeen; and residual chlorine problems in seventy-three.

With respect to that issue, I know out in our own community where the town is spread out so far, when they put chlorine in the system at the beginning, the source of the system, it is very difficult to pick up any residual as you get toward the end of the town. So there were seventy-three in that category. Only seventeen, or 7.91 per cent, of the total boil water advisories are due to microbiological reasons. That would be certainly unsafe water tests.

If you did not get all of those statistics, I can get that to you.

MR. BUTLER: I would appreciate that.

Just looking through my notes there, I have one other one. I go back to the occupational health and safety issue. You gave me the information and I think you are telling me you feel safe with this and the other departments feel safe. I just want to read a couple of comments - and your opinion on it, you do not have to respond to it - what other people are saying.

For example, it went on to say that these employees are currently working on an OHS program for environmental protection officers. The EPOs are currently out in the field without the proper training and equipment. There is currently no way to know or check if they have the proper training and equipment. They were just starting to get this in place when the plug was pulled. I understand and I agree with what you told me, but when you hear something like that I guess there is always a concern there. Is there something happening that you are not aware of or what have you?

MR. HARDING: I am not sure, but the information that was presented in the House of Assembly at that time was from the survey that was being done. At that time, the final report had not even been completed. As a result, I did not have the report when that came up in the House of Assembly. There are only eight or nine people who had that information from the uncompleted report. We are not sure of the source of your information, Sir, and I will not bother to ask. Anyway, there is probably something there that I will not make reference to at this point in time. We will leave it at that.

The three people who you had referenced were people who were hired for a specific purpose: to prepare the planning and review what we had and set this baseline thing for our overall occupational health and safety thing. They were told at the beginning that they had three years' work, roughly, and they were told three months prior to termination that they would be finished the end of March.

With respect to why, I do not know if anyone ever came out and said I think we should be on longer or anything like that, I do not really know. From our perspective, the work that they were hired for was completed and we had no problem in finalizing the overall report on that particular three-year project.

MR. BUTLER: I will just say, Sir, it came from people within the system. I will leave it at that.

The other thing I want to comment on, Minister, you mentioned it in your opening statement about the one-stop shopping from Mews over to Mount Pearl.

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I think that is a good thing, regardless of what department in government it is, to bring things under the one roof. I know what it was to go to one place and then they say, no you have to go over there or you have to go somewhere else. I commend you for that; that is a good venture.

MR. HARDING: We have been doing that throughout the Province and we found that where we did that in other communities it really worked well.

One other thing that we did, too, and it was done over the past couple of years, this teleservice thing that we have at Motor Registration; we found the public, especially out in the outports, people just cannot stand making a phone call and getting a recording on the other end. I think we have put five or six people in the Corner Brook office at this teleservice centre, and it has gone over really well. I think last year they handled something like 160,000-odd phone calls. They provide whatever information they have with respect to Motor Registration in the Province to the callers. We have a really positive feedback, too, from the public on that particular initiative.

MR. BUTLER: That is good. I have another Estimates coming up next week in another department where the telephone system is not as good, I can assure you, after five or six years. People have to wait for forty-five minutes and then they get a message saying: I am sorry; you will have to call back again. I am glad to hear you say yours is working like that.

With that, Sir, I want to thank the minister for this morning, and his staff, and to thank you. I have nothing else.

CHAIR: Thank you, Roland.

I will call for the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive; shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.1.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Government Services carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Government Services carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Before we call for adjournment, we need adoption of the last Government Services Estimates Committee minutes of May 11.

MR. LODER: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Terry Loder, that the minutes be adopted as circulated.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Our next Committee, for the information of the Committee, will be on Wednesday, May 18, at 5:30 p.m., and that will be Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

With that, I would like to thank the Committee again for your time. Mr. Minister, to you as well and your staff, thanks for your co-operation. I think everybody is satisfied with the responses.

Thank you very much.

MR. HARDING: I want to thank the Committee very much as well for the co-operation and little communication back and forth that we had. I am really pleased with that, and I thank my staff for their contribution as well.

Thank you.

CHAIR: With that, I will call for a motion for adjournment.

MR. BUTLER: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Roland Butler to adjourn.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.