The Committee met at 9:30 a. m. in the House of Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN: (Walsh)

Order, please!

I would like to welcome participants to the continuation of our first Resource Estimates Committee which dealt with the Department of Development and we will pick up virtually where we left off in the last session.

A quick view of participants, I see, Mr. Minister that there are some new faces this morning whom you may wish to introduce. I would like to make one other point very clear to all Departmental officials, all questions being asked this morning are to the Minister and through the Minister; any official may answer a question but only at the direction of the Minister, so all questions will be to him.

If you would like to do an introduction of your officials, Mr. Minister, we will get started.

MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We are delighted to be back here to talk to you about our estimates. On my right is the Deputy Minister of Development, Clyde Granter; on my immediate left is Mr. Jim Janes, who is the President and Chief Executive Officer for Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador; and on my far right is Adele Poynter, who is one of our commissioners at the Economic Recovery Commission.

Behind me, to my far left is Sam Kean, who is with the Recovery Commission and Dorothy French and Patrick Kennedy who are with Enterprise Newfoundland and on my far right is David Butler, who is the Director of Financial Administration with the Department of Development; Sid Blundon, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism, and directly behind me is Barbara Wakeham, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Investment and Trade.

Is that it? Tourism and Promotions for Mr. Blundon and Investment and Trade for Miss Wakeman. Is that right?

AN HON. MEMBER: Industry, Trade and Technology.

MR. FUREY: Industry, Trade and Technology. We will get it right one of these days. If at any point during the proceedings officials have to leave, it is because they have other meetings and things like that, so they may all abandon me within the next hour.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I would like to introduce the Committee: Mr. Walter Noel, the Member for Pleasantville; Mr. Alec Snow, the Member for Menihek; Mr. Hewlett, the Member for Green Bay.

Guest participants this morning are: Mr. Percy Barrett, the Member for Bellevue and Mr. Larry Short, the Member for St. George's. The Vice-Chairman of the Committee of course is, Mr. Woodford, the Member for Humber Valley.

Mr. Woodford, if you would like to begin?

MR. WOODFORD: I see Sam Kean here this morning and I wonder if Sam still has anything to do with the co-ops? Under this new bill, Mr. Minister, an amendment to the Co-op Societies Act presented by the Department of Finance, this used to be the responsibility of the Department of Development. What was the real reason for putting this with Finance as regards changes in this new bill?

MR. FUREY: If you do not mind, I am going to ask Sam to answer that because he has been dealing with the Department of Finance, Development and Justice on that very matter; it is more of a technical question so I will ask you to address that because you dealt with it.

MR. KEAN: Well a simple answer, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that, due to the restructuring of the co-operative division, I think that happened about eight months ago, it was decided that it would be more appropriate to put the responsibility for credit unions under the Department of Finance for the purposes of regulation, so now, what we have is, the credit unions with the Department of Finance and the Co-operatives with the Department of Development.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am being informed by Hansard, and I apologize for this, but although the Minister introduced Sam that time, I would ask each participant to identify himself before giving an answer, for the sake of Hansard, as it will be typed in weeks to come.

Mr. Woodford?

MR. WOODFORD: So what you are saying is that the credit unions will come under Finance, and co-operatives in general, like co-op stores, would come under Development.

MR. KEAN: That is correct.

MR. WOODFORD: With the same regulations?

MR. KEAN: No. At the present time, Mr. Chairman, there is a single piece of legislation governing both co-operatives and credit unions in the Province and it will remain until Government brings forward separate legislation for credit unions under the Department of Finance and separate legislation for co-operatives under the Department of Development.

MR. WOODFORD: With references in that Bill, references from the Stabilization Fund Board to the Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation, would that make any difference with regards to the amounts? Stabilization fund, would that be - what? a maximum of $60,000 or something like that?

MR. KEAN: Well, at the present time, Mr. Chairman, the stabilization fund is a single fund which is contributed to by the credit unions in the Province and it has approximately $1.4 million in it. The actual security against members' deposits is up to the limit of that fund. But the proposed legislation is going to provide additional protection to credit union deposits across the Province, to the limits equivalent to what is currently provided under the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. So in essence what we are going to have is a Provincial Deposit Insurance Guarantee Fund similar to what is being provided to the banking system throughout the country through the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

MR. WOODFORD: Up to?

MR. KEAN: Up to $60,000 per deposit.

MR. WOODFORD: Same as a bank.

MR. KEAN: So there are different deposit ranges within that whole programme. Essentially you can have - depending on how you deposit it with the credit union system - up to $210,000 worth of protection. Because it is per deposit. So you can have it in different deposits and I think the limit is about $210,000. So it is a much greater protection for the deposits which people can invest in the credit union system.

MR. WOODFORD: I cannot remember, although something comes to mind concerning it - remember the pilot project that was talked about? In fact, I was talking about it when I was there for a short time, concerning the commercial institutions. Was that put in after? With regards to lending to commercial institutions through the credit unions? That was not instituted, was it?

MR. KEAN: No. At the present time the credit unions in the Province, with some rare exceptions, do not become involved in commercial lending. What is being proposed through the Enterprise Corporation is a pilot programme called a Community Enterprise Plan which hopefully will assist the credit union system to participate in extending commercial services across the Province, particularly in the rural areas of the Province. What we have to wait for are certain amendments to the credit union legislation, or through the legislation itself, to provide for commercial lending. That is what we are waiting for at the present time. As soon as that happens we will be going forward with that particular programme.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) Province into commercial lending if we can. But as Mr. Kean rightly points out this is very much a pilot project and it is premised upon that legislation going through. I think they will choose one or two areas around the Province and start commercial lending in those particular areas, assess it after a period of time, and then move into other areas. But it is the long term goal to move credit unions, which are predominantly in rural areas, into small-scale commercial lending.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before a follow-up question I just want to - and I will certainly allow Mr. Woodford to carry on and finish the point being made - but as this legislation will probably be before this very same Committee in the legislative side of this Committee, if you want to pursue your train of thought at this point in time I have no problem. But I am not overly anxious to get too deeply into the Bill knowing full well it is probably a matter of weeks and we will be dealing with this Bill in Committee.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, has this cleared the Legislative Review Committee, or...?

MR. WOODFORD: No. But apart from that, in answer to you, Mr. Chairman, I have the right here as a Member to question anything pertaining to Development or anything else pertaining to the Department that the Minister is responsible for. So I am not taking exception to it but I just want to make it quite clear to you that I have a right to question the Minister and his officials on anything pertaining to anything in his Department, even if I have to refer to a bill that is on the order paper now.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is why I am saying - I have no problem with the questioning, but I just want to say I do not want to get into a full-blown discussion on the Bill itself. The aspect of the co-ops I can relate to the estimates but I prefer the Bill as such be discussed in the other Committee. As it is only a proposed bill at this point in time we may be discussing something that may never become reality.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, I think it was a couple of years ago now when this particular subject came up. I believe you made a statement in the House pertaining to this lending to commercial institutions, by the way. The very point that you just brought out, picking out two or three areas in the Province - especially rural areas of the Province - where this could be instituted. Now I understand from the comments made by Mr. Kean that that is probably going to go through, something to do with Enterprise Newfoundland, or...?

MR. FUREY: Well, that is where the co-operatives and that kind of thing sits, under that community - what is it called, Sam?

MR. KEAN: Community Enterprise Plan.

MR. FUREY: The Community Enterprise Plan which is a special program. You are quite right, I did talk about it, not a couple of years ago, about eight to ten months ago, maybe a year ago, even. I think it was with respect to the introduction on first reading of that Bill that I had chosen to table in the House and subsequently withdrew it or it died on the Order Paper. I know the Department of Finance had a number of concerns, and I do not want to get into the details of it, but they wanted to do a thorough review prior to allowing or giving permission to any credit union anywhere in the Province to get into commercial lending. They did that review and I understand, Sam, it is pretty well done is it not?

MR. KEAN: Yes, it is.

MR. FUREY: Finance is reported and you have had your meetings from the Enterprise side with Finance and we are ready to move when that Bill goes through.

MR. KEAN: That is right.

MR. WOODFORD: So, there is a possibility over the next year or so that there may be a pilot program instituted?

MR. FUREY: Mr. Woodford, if that Bill receives royal assent in this session this Fall, we will have a number of those credit unions participating in commercial lending on a pilot project basis.

MR. WOODFORD: Because at that time it was mentioned -

MR. FUREY: I trust you will help us pilot that through.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I was going to suggest, and I believe I suggested at that time, that probably the Deer Lake credit union, where it has been just brought in last year, or the year before, has been very successful and growing really fast, and would probably be a good place to institute such a program because of that good cross section of forestry, agriculture, tourism, and fishery. You have it all.

MR. FUREY: You just want all those people in St. Barbe now to make deposits in Deer Lake. Is that what you want?

MR. WOODFORD: That is a great help.

MR. FUREY: And then come and borrow.

MR. WOODFORD: Come and borrow, yes, and spend while they are there.

Pertaining to the Government stores, the Labrador stores. Has there been any interest in people making proposals to your Department to take over those stores?

MR. FUREY: We have not actually formally gone out and asked for proposals. I will just give you very briefly the history. You know we operate five stores along the northern coast of Labrador. These stores, historically, have lost considerable sums of money. I believe in the last fiscal year we lost $550,000.

MR. WOODFORD: $550,000?

MR. FUREY: A little over half a million dollars. What we were trying to do is examine how we could best deliver efficiently and effectively quality service to those people in the isolated parts of Labrador, but at the same time do it by being fiscally responsible, and one of the problems we have is that governments are poor storekeepers. We are not good at running stores if we have to bind ourselves to the Public Tendering Act and all those kind of things, because you know that process takes a long time. I do not know if when you were Minister you were responsible for those stores. For example if there is a sale on with cases of beans, or whatever, we have to go through the public tendering system and by the time we go through that system people who we were competing with who also run stores are cleaning out these sales and stuff so we are left behind paying full price for these products and the cost to get them into these isolated regions. There are a whole plethora of problems that come up with these stores so what we did is commission a study, completed by Deloitte & Touche and they basically presented this to us about three weeks ago. There are some very valuable suggestions in there but I have not had time to prepare an executive summary and Cabinet Paper and brief my colleagues on that. I would prefer to do that prior to making a release of it, but there are a number of things that we announced in the House that arose partially from this study and partially from internal reviews by our people at Development. We have implemented a number of things such as coupon redemptions and things of that nature to help people in the local area, but there are a number of options and the options are the status quo, leave the stores as they are and let them continue to run up significant debts and be a burden to the taxpayer. Another option is to look at the co-operative option, to allow participation by local people. Another option is direct privatization. Another option is partial privatization. Well, there are a number of options that are listed in this particular study but we have not gone out for any public proposals or calls. We certainly, by way of conducting this study, have sent the signal to the business community that we are prepared to look at options. Unsolicited calls have been made to my office by a number of businesses asking what the status of it is but Government has not taken any formal position to divest of those stores in any way. The purpose of the study was to make the bottom line more realistic, to deliver efficiently in isolated areas, and to deliver quality to these people. Now, if that means total privatization at the end of the day, so be it. If it means co-operative with participation from the local communities, well so be it. But this study was done and done very thoroughly at minimum expense to the Government but there was a very good consultative process too. I believe they visited Nain twice, this company, and had public meetings, Hopedale, Makkovik, Davis Inlet and Postville.

So it was comprehensive, there was good consultation, there was lots of community involvement. But at the end of the day we want to erase that half a million dollar debt that keeps cropping up yearly, and I think the way to do that is to structurally correct it. Not because we want to avoid the public tendering system and stuff, but if we are going to be shopkeepers and continue to be shopkeepers there have to be structural corrections to allow us to perform as shopkeepers out there in the retail trade sector.

MR. WOODFORD: When it is all looked at it is a possibility. Two options, either going the co-op way or possibly privatizing all the stores.

MR. FUREY: The options are as I have outlined them. Status quo, continue to absorb these losses into the general deficit; to correct it by way of co-operative participation by local groups; privatization by local groups taking it over. But we cannot abandon people, we cannot abandon that service because of the isolated nature. Although, private sector people have given us considerable pressure from some towns along the coast to abandon it and to allow the private sector. Some people who own stores in these regions say that we are unfairly competing with them. So it is a delicate balance and we are trying to find what the proper solution is. I think we will come to a good solution at the end of the day. I just do not know what the final answer is yet.

MR. WOODFORD: If any other Members have any questions I will yield.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Short.

MR. SHORT: I do not know if this question was asked at the last session but, Mr. Minister, where is the Federal-Provincial tourism agreement? What stage is it in?

MR. FUREY: It was asked at the last session, and I will just, if Members will indulge me, review it quickly. The tourism agreement we are hoping will be signed shortly. I do not want to, and I do not think it would be proper for me, I know when it will be signed, but I do not think it would be proper without the Federal Government's agreement - after all they are an equal partner in this agreement - or without consulting them to say when it will be signed. But I am very hopeful that it will be signed shortly. I think it is a good agreement. I think our Tourism people from the Provincial side have done a fabulous job putting a strong framework in place, and it will mostly be for public parks and these kinds of things, public infrastructure, much more that private infrastructure as it was in previous agreements. I do not know if Mr. Blundon wants to add to that.

You do not want me to tell them all this, do you?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Okay, we have nothing else to add.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hewlett.

MR. HEWLETT: I would make a brief comment and I will ask the Minister's reaction with regard to the Economic Recovery Commission. We have now the Enterprise Corporation, which is a concept that was on the go in its initial phases certainly when the previous administration was in power, the - if I might use the word - amalgamation of government's programmes and agencies of funding into one more streamlined entity. So therefore the concept of Enterprise Newfoundland is not something I would object to. Indeed, the concept I think is one, one could support.

But I have always thought it curious, Mr. Minister, that the previous administration and Dr. House study a societal problem that we have and that is our chronic unemployment, which has been with us for many years. But why would this current administration - Dr. House being a sociologist - I can understand a sociologist studying a societal problem but why put a sociologist in charge of the solution? I would have thought that a recovery team, being the board of directors for its banking instrument, Enterprise Newfoundland, would probably be best led by someone of a - and I hope the gentleman will forgive me for using his name - a Lee Iacocca type. A dynamic private sector entrepreneurial type individual rather than a more academic sociologist sort.

Could the Minister enlighten us as to why we have a sociologist? I can understand why a sociologist would study the problem. But why appoint one to deliver on fixing the problem?

MR. FUREY: First of all, Mr. Hewlett, Mr. Iacocca was busy and we could not entice him to come to Newfoundland. Seriously, I suppose, if you go to a doctor and you ask the doctor to diagnose your ankle after a heavy game of tennis and he determines that it is broken you would want that doctor to fix it. So, the previous Government did a study called Building on our Strengths, they chose Dr. House because of his competence and his knowledge and background and asked him to do that study. They laid out that study with recommendations and we as a government said: well you know if Dr. House was good enough for Premier Peckford and the previous Government to lay out the study and offer up solutions perhaps he is the proper one to now put in place to implement those solutions.

It is not isolated to Dr. House. Ms. Poynter is here this morning and she brings a certain level of competence. She was a senior person with ACOA previously, has a masters degree in economics and business management. Mr. Humphries ran a private sector business very successfully. Ms. Sherk, out of Nova Scotia, brings a sterling reputation from the private sector with Mobile and others. These people are quite competent. Their task is a monumental one, it is not easy. There are no easy solutions and we have said from day one there is no magic wand. Nobody at the Commission has a magic wand, they cannot wave a magic wand and take us to zero unemployment. All they can do is advise in a very general way Government on policy directions that we can move toward.

I think they have done a very good job in many regards, despite the criticisms that I find for the most part to be unfair and unwarranted. You are quite right that the previous Government through its various studies, SERC and others, determined that decentralization was the proper way to go and that Enterprise Newfoundland should have been set up, so I thank you for commending us for taking up the challenge that you left us with to proceed with Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador. It is quite heartening to hear somebody in Opposition give us credit where we believe credit is due. But equally as Minister let me give you credit for setting out the groundwork and the framework to do this. We just happened to have been the Government elected which moved forward to proceed with it, so we are both due equal credit in that regard.

Ms. Poynter did you want to add something to that?

MS. POYNTER: I think I would add to that the Enterprise Corporation was never meant to be a bank, in fact. Obviously, it offers financial services and it has a very competent staff which advises the board about those services, but it is also meant to handle non-financial areas, for example, it offers non-financial support in the area of marketing, business planning preparation and all the other sort of hand holding that many of our enterprises need. It also handles rural development associations, co-operatives as we just mentioned, and is looking in fact at innovative solutions to fund many of those mechanisms. It also has a regional planning function. Of course, it is not also just an amalgamation of government programmes, it is also decentralized with authority in the regions and a lot of those with non-financial functions are a very important part of the Corporation, so it not meant to be just a bank.

MR. HEWLETT: I would just make a comment on the Minister's metaphor with regard to the broken ankle. Perhaps, the doctor who diagnoses it may well strap it up or put it in a cast for a while, but to regain full use of the limb one would hope that somewhere along the line the good doctor would step aside and let the physiotherapist bring about a more productive use of the limb. It was in that context that I thought your Mr. Iacocca or some reasonable facsimile thereof might be the physiotherapist.

One hears in the press, Mr. Minister, and one has heard over the past year or two from Dr. House, at times what a watcher or reader would, I guess, interpret as a degree of frustration with the reality of Newfoundland and at times Newfoundlanders. I saw a story in the most recent weekend paper indicating he was thinking about going back to the university full time. One of my colleagues mentioned that there was something on the radio this morning, which I did not hear, that sort of negated that. What is the current status? -- because the one thing that Mr. Iacocca brought to the Chrysler Corporation, when it was literally flat on its back, was a degree of dynamism and self confidence, and when the chairman of the board of one's banking instrument, one's planning instrument, one's hand holding instrument is expressing doubts out loud as to the ability of the Newfoundland populace to perform the commitment of himself to stay, surely, Mr. Minister, that sort of casts a pall over the objective of Enterprise Newfoundland and the Economic Recovery team - the objective, of course, which is very laudable.

MR. FUREY: I guess what you are asking me amongst all that language is what are Dr. House's future plans? He came to the commission with a commitment of two years. He has served the Province faithfully and diligently. He has worked long hours, much of it away from his family. He has punched a lot of time on the road. He has met with literally thousands of people. I would say he has been just about everywhere in this Province, all over the Province. In fact I am going to table the details of his travel today in the House, as was asked on the Order Paper. He has given a firm commitment to carry on for the next twelve months, beyond that I do not know, but I tell you that the Province has been served very well by Dr. House. You talk about instilling confidence; I think he has done a pretty remarkable job, particularly in rural Newfoundland, of instilling confidence in people. Lee Iacocca he may not be, but then Lee Iacocca accepted $1 billion in U.S. dollars to bail out Chrysler - we do not have that billion dollars. Mr. Iacocca makes $20 million a year, well we cannot pay Dr. House $20 million a year. But for what he is being paid, he is deserving of every cent.

MR. HEWLETT: One more question, Mr. Chairman. Again I will get back to the concept of amalgamation. The Minister or his officials are probably familiar with the term that is used in economic circles: synergy, which was a new one to me up until a few years ago, until I had an economist explain it to me that the sum of the parts is greater than if you take them individually and add them together, that the interacting of parts creates some sort of "magic" interactive force that is positive, dynamic and self sustaining. And you, Sir, are the Minister responsible for economic development in our Province, and yesterday we saw an instance in the municipal sphere where a large municipal body near the capital city was allowed to live but not to grow. I wonder is that not a sort of negative synergy being done within the confines of your mandate, and that it would tend to stifle or choke a degree of economic dynamism within this general region by virtue of a municipal policy that I would think take the energy, the life blood out of twenty-odd thousand people in this immediate area? Would that not cause you a degree of concern being the Minister responsible for economic development in a positive development climate?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you answer the question, Mr. Minister, (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well I will not exactly say we have strayed. The train is on the same tracks, it just does not seem to be travelling in the same direction. I am not quite sure where the question is coming from or leading to. I will say to you that I have absolutely no intention of trying to justify or deal with Municipal Affairs matters in a Resource Estimates Committee on the Department of Development. Every business that existed in that community yesterday opened up again this morning. I am not sure if the Minister even wants to deal with the question, because I am not sure what the question was, I -

MR. HEWLETT: My point Mr. Chairman, if I may, is quite simply, that yes, I totally agree that a strict discussion of municipal matters would be certainly outside the ambit of this particular committee; but, a community, be it a city, town - for instance, I think this morning every shop opened up in Paradise and the surrounding area and I do believe that as of yesterday, and I feel good for the Town of Paradise and its environs, that there is a positive synergy existent in the Town of Paradise today that was not there yesterday morning, which is good for economic development in that particular area. In the same context, I would contend to the Minister, that, even though the same businesses are opened in the City of Mount Pearl, the community of Mount Pearl, call it what you wish - that the life-force, the dynamism that is needed to grow and expand and develop, is somewhat diminished, and it was in that context that I put the point to the Minister.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I appreciate the question but I cannot find a parallel between the two; I distinctly remember some years ago myself opening a Kentucky Fried Chicken Store in that very city; my understanding is that my successors are planning on opening a second one, regardless of what happens.

I do not understand the logic and unless you can define the question a little bit better, as I said, I am not going to let the committee slip into a Municipal Affairs issue. Certainly that question might be a good one for the Minister during Question Period this afternoon, but the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I prefer you not deal with it, Mr. Minister, unless you want to - I will give you thirty seconds, but I have no idea where we are going with it and I just want to go on record that I have no intentions of dealing with municipal affairs issues here today, so -

MR. HEWLETT: Well (inaudible) issue, if the Minister wishes to comment, fine, if not, I have made my point. Thank you.

MR. FUREY: The question is somewhat contra-synergistic, but that not-withstanding, what you are saying is: has amalgamation, in any way dampened the economy overnight? - and it will in the long term future, and how does that affect my department and the Economic Recovery Commission's mandate to provide focus and policy direction to business development in the Province?

I do not see any negatives at this point in time, it is early to say, they may well be up the road, I have no crystal ball, but our Department, through Enterprise Newfoundland, will continue helping small and medium size business right straight across the Province. My larger Department, under which everything comes, the Department of Development through the Deputy and the two Assistant Deputies who are here today, will continue along the path of Trade Investment Promotion, Tourism and all those good things that we are doing in the larger department and the larger projects in inducing and attracting large projects to the Province.

The Recovery Commission, this morning, continues with its mandate to provide focus and direction and new pathways for the Government to look into, so, has amalgamation caused any great wet blanket to fall across the economy of the Province? -- No. Will it in the future? -- well, it is hard to tell, I do not see it could or would, but I have no crystal ball, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HEWLETT: There is no point, Mr. Chairman and I yield to someone else.

The Minister though, I would think, as a part of his mandate would agree that the development of an entrepreneurial climate in our society would be a part of his mandate, and any other Government policy which would have a tendency to detract from that climate, would tend to make the Minister's job more difficult; is that a fair statement?

MR. FUREY: Well, I can give you a thousand things that make my job more difficult; it is a monumental task, it has never been easy in our history to develop this Province. You know, because you have written many Throne Speeches about our geography and the negatives with which we are dealing constantly, some of it very poetic, and I can understand where the hon. Member gets his poetry, it has shown up many times in Throne Speeches that I have witnessed.

But seriously, it is very difficult to develop this Province; there are thousands of things that conspire to come against us at any given time, at any given point in our history. For example, just as Hibernia starts to take off, who would have predicted the crisis in the fishery, so, as we are getting a positive on the left side, we are taking a negative on the right side, so you know all of these things fit into the mix.

It is a very difficult task that we have before us. We have no easy answers, magic solutions or special wands. That is why we asked for the expertise and competence that the four commissioners with Dr. House bring to bear upon our policy direction. We do not have the answers. So we are drawing from the business and academic worlds, and the other systems that we drew from, to ask them to help us with direction. I think the onus is not just on me, Chuck Furey, as Minister of Development, or one Member of this House. The onus is on all fifty-two Members. All of us are in a way Ministers of Development, it is all our responsibility to develop the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you. Mr. Minister, in our last meeting I believe - I am not sure if it was you who mentioned it or your person responsible for tourism, talked about the number of tourists coming to the Province - I believe it was 298,000. One hundred and thirty thousand of those are in Province tourists, the remainder coming from outside the Province?

MR. SID BLUNDON: Actually, Mr. Snow, the non-resident numbers were 290,000 visitors to Newfoundland and Labrador. Fifty per cent of those came in by ferry, basically 50 per cent came in by aircraft, and a smaller number came in through the road in Labrador West. We do not really have a great breakdown of how much of that is actually business travel, how much is strictly tourism travel. We are in the process of conducting a domestic travel survey and finalizing some reviews of our auto and air exit surveys that were done last year. As a result of that we should have a better handle of how much of that was strictly tourism.

In terms of the resident travel - what we consider resident travel is anybody who basically travels eighty kilometres outside of their jurisdiction and spends an overnight. There was 1,269,000 of those. That is basically residents travelling throughout Newfoundland. As a result of the domestic travel survey which we are in the process of completing and evaluating we will find out what travel plans are and again how much of that was strictly tourism and how much was related to business traffic. The 130 that we talked about, that is the $130,000,000 dollars that was associated with the 300,000 non-resident travellers.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you. The reason why I wanted that information was that I would wonder if indeed there will be any surveys conducted in western Labrador with regard to numbers of people coming in and leaving the area this year. That is one part of it. I would also like to know what kind of an affect do you feel this resident population not working this year will have on the tourism industry, if you will. The fact that this Government is going to be probably laying off 2,000 people, or 2,500 people. We are in the process of that. I think that is the figure, isn't it? Around 1,500, 2,000 total?

Anyway, what affect that will have on the in Province or resident tourists if you want to call them that. I would think that the fact that they will not have as much disposable income - albeit they may be on unemployment insurance, they may not be leaving the high paying jobs in the public sector - they are still losing disposable income and they probably will not want to travel as much as they did in previous years. I would like to know the affect of that. I would also like to know what role your Department plays in the development of transportation in the Province in the sense that in western Labrador we are putting a lot of faith, and have put a lot of faith into the construction of the Trans-Labrador Highway. I would like to know what your Department's role has been, and will be in the future, in the development of the highway? As you are well aware it is something that a lot of residents of western and central Labrador are promoting. We see it as a vehicle of development and not as presenting obstacles where people are going to have to clear snow from it or maintain it. We see it as a vehicle of opportunity. We see it as something similar, I suppose, to the field of dreams, build it and the people will come. I would like to again know what your Department's role has been. We feel in western Labrador that since the decline of the mining industry in the early 80s we as a community promoted tourism very much. As a matter of fact the councils promoted it prior to - when I say councils I mean town councils, promoted it prior to any infusion of money from the Province. I would like to know when you people will be putting more promotion into promoting that part of Labrador in tourism brochures? I would also like to know what role your Department plays in the establishment of regulations with regard to hunting and fishing for tourists who are attracted to Labrador? My understanding is that most of the tourists who come to Labrador are interested in hunting and fishing, or adventure travel. I would like to know what role your Department plays in the establishment, enforcement, and the rationale behind those regulations that were established last year?

MR. FUREY: You have asked quite a number of questions so I will get my assistant deputy to deal in some of the specifics you have asked. Any layoff, one person laid off affects the economy. You asked about the number of Government employees that would be laid off. I do not think the final numbers have been determined or calculated yet, how many are going to be through attrition, how many will be through not filling vacancies, how many will be what I call real people who are laid off from real jobs they have been occupying. Your number was 2500 or 3000 but I do not think it will reach that. I have no way of knowing yet because we do not have the final calculations in from the hospitals, the schools, and all those kind of things. When we get that and add it up we will have a more concrete number, unless it has been announced in my absence. I have been away for a week at the Science Minister's Conference in Saskatoon and at the Offshore Technology Conference in Houston and meeting with business groups in Toronto and Halifax. Unless it has been announced in my absence, Mr. Chairman, I do not know. I cannot judge that yet but I tell you when one person is laid off it affects the economy. Of course it affects the economy because that many more dollars are taken out and the economy shrinks. I cannot really answer that because I do not have the specific number. I can only tell you in a general sense that any layoff affects the economy. Will it have an affect on disposable income of people? -- of course it will. Will that cause those particular people to re-evaluate whether that limited disposable income will be used for vacations? Of course it will, but counterpoint to that, of course, is the increased amount of business travel that we are seeing daily into this Province, coming from as far away as Paris, Norway, New York on this side, and Boston, Toronto and Montreal, coming in to participate on a daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis into the Hibernia project. That, of course, is going to increase business travel and increase the consumption of services and goods in the Province so there is a counterpoint to that that we must recognize. You talked about what we are doing for hunting and fishing in Labrador. We have a very specific guide that we send into the

international marketplace, my Tourism branch. I do not know if the hon. Member has seen it. It is quite top-notch quality. It is giving direct benefits particularly to Labrador which is highlighted very specifically throughout that guide. We participate in trade shows. I just had an opportunity to give a speech in Toronto in front of 150 magazine writers from across the country and talked about Labrador and its great rivers and wilderness and adventure tourism.

My Department participates in trade shows. It will help councils and others who want any specific promotions. We deal with specific camp and outfitter and lodge owners in Labrador, helping them to specifically promote their particular ventures. We changed the rules last year on guiding and outfitting to ensure that - for example, the problem in Labrador was Americans were coming in using their own planes, bringing their own supplies, buying fishing permits, bypassing the local industry, not purchasing any local groceries, not purchasing any local fuel, not using local guides, and just setting up, as it was pointed out to us, canning and freezing fish and taking huge quantities out of Labrador's rivers and Newfoundland's streams.

We put a stop to that. We established very solid guiding regulations where only Newfoundlanders can have carte blanche the right to fish in these rivers and streams. Anybody coming in must now have a licence and 800 metres to either side of the road, and streams and rivers beyond that they must have professional guides. Which will increase our employment, look after our conservation and deter people from canning, freezing and poaching, and raping our rivers which has been going on for far too long.

So that was a very positive and constructive guideline we put in place. It takes those middlemen out, those Americans and others, who are coming in to Labrador big game hunting and fishing and taking without giving or leaving anything in the economy. So we feel very good about that.

You asked about the Trans-Labrador Highway. We have input into all modes of transportation. For example, airlines have done a marvellous job promoting Marble Mountain. We encourage them to co-operative advertise with us on all tourism projects. The Trans-Labrador Highway I feel is very important. We do not have the fiscal competence to produce or construct that highway. But certainly it is a priority from a tourism and economic development perspective. I had an opportunity to bring the Resource Policy Committee to Labrador a number of months ago and we met with the town council of Happy Valley - Goose Bay, and that was a priority for them. I spoke in your own district some months ago at the International Dogsled Races, and at that time I took the time to have a meeting with the Wabush council. That was a priority for them too.

With the construction of the Ossokmanuan Bridge now we have that access to go through. It is just a matter now of convincing the Federal Government that this indeed is a priority. I think you are right in your 'Field of Dreams' judgement that put it there, and it will draw economic development and opportunity for people. I think it would be a tremendous tourism benefit myself, personally speaking. But I think it would draw like a magnet enhanced economic development.

Now there was some - you asked a particular question about whether there would specifically be surveys done in Labrador West? Is that what you asked?

MR. A. SNOW: Yes. Part of the survey has been done Province-wide, I believe that Mr. Blundon talked about it.

MR. BLUNDON: I believe we talked to 2,500 to 3,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I am not sure what the percentage was from Labrador. But it was supposed to be a cross-section of the entire Province. That will give us an idea of resident travel, what they expect, some concerns and so on that they raised to give us a more planned focus on how we address some of the concerns that have been raised. I believe we talked at the last meeting that it is one of the Minister's priorities to ensure that we have a tourist chalet just as you enter Labrador West. That in itself once we build it is going to give us the good solid information about the travellers who are coming into Labrador.

MR. A. SNOW: So you will be conducting - part of the survey will be done in western Labrador this year?

MR. BLUNDON: The actual telephone survey has already been completed. We are just trying to summarize the results. But I can certainly get you information on the numbers of telephone calls that were made to the people of Labrador. That was included in that survey.

MR. A. SNOW: What about the people from outside the Province entering the Province? Rather than just the resident population.

MR. BLUNDON: The domestic travel survey was just to try to identify the travel patterns of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. The travel patterns of non-residents are done through what we call auto and air exit surveys. Those are the people in the airports and at the various terminals and what have you physically asking people about their travel plans - what brought them here, how much money did they spend, what did they enjoy, what didn't they enjoy, that type of thing. That is presently being finalized as well.

MR. A. SNOW: And that will be conducted in western Labrador?

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) could I just make an offer to you, to come by the Department of Tourism and they would be glad to show you how we conduct these surveys, give you all the statistics, break out right down to the streets in your district if we can. But we would be glad to do that, sure.

MR. A. SNOW: Well, my point is, Mr. Minister, that I would want to see the survey being conducted within western Labrador. Because that is a gateway to the Province.

MR. FUREY: Well, I tell you we would be more than happy. Mr. Blundon will set it up for you anytime you are available to come and see how we approach these surveys and how they are done, and seek your input.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you. So you have suggested that your department did have input into the non-resident angling regulations you talked about, the 800 metres on rivers and streams. That requirement, of course, is not applicable on lakes, and I would imagine that the rationale behind the 800 metres is that we can allow a tourist, if you will, to drive along the highway and he or she may get out and walk up or down a river for 800 metres, not the full length of a river, to fish, without the necessity of a guide, and yet when we apply the regulations on a pond or a lake the adjacency rule suggests that it is the whole pond or lake, and that is not working properly. Can you tell me what rationale was used to include the whole lake or the whole pond?

MR. FUREY: I am not sure you are correct. What I will have to do is get the actual regulations and give them to you. I cannot answer that right now, I do not have them before me. I do not know if Mr. Blundon (inaudible).

MR. BLUNDON: Well as I understand it the regulations are 800 metres of a highway system. I could be corrected, but I was not aware that if a person went on a lake and the lake happened to be fifty or sixty miles that they could just use that 800 metres and go anywhere on that lakes. I know it comes down to an enforcement issue and what have you, but I thought the regulations were specific on 800 metres.

MR. A. SNOW: Yes, well this is where they can use a guide without an outfitter on a lake and that is creating a lot of problems within western Labrador because of the size of the lakes, and I think it is something that should be looked at, there were a lot of problems last year and we are expecting a lot more problems this year.

MR. FUREY: I would gladly take that under advisement, and any specifics that you can give us we would be happy to look at them and see if corrective action can be taken because the intent of the regulation is not as you articulate but as I have articulated to protect and conserve the rivers for local people and for the economic benefit when outsiders come in. That is the intent. But if the intent is in some way being misconstrued because of the language of the regulation, we are quite open to corrective action. So we will take that under advisement, Mr. Snow, and have it checked.

MR. A. SNOW: The reason I am continuously raising the problems associated with the inland fishery, albeit it is not directly pertaining to your department, but it does play a very important role in the development of tourism in western Labrador and in all of Labrador because of the type of traveller that we are attracting to Labrador. So I think it is important that we protect the resource, which was the whole idea behind these regulations.

The other problem is enforcement. I would suggest that your department also have another look at other provinces to measure how they enforce the regulations, because with the limited manpower available in western Labrador it is impossible for them to enforce the regulations as they are now. They do not have the resources available to the too few people there enforcing it, and you have to come up with a different method. There are other methods available that other provinces use.

MR. FUREY: I agree, that has to be looked at, but the increase in the number of guides certainly is helpful. A lot of people are taking courses now. I think Labrador is a leader, actually, in the establishment and the promotion of courses in the college there for guiding. New Brunswick is looking at your courses right now as a matter of fact. The other thing is that you would be surprised how many people, ordinary citizens, phone to let Governments and others know when people are misusing a resource. In fact, when I sat in Opposition I used to get weekly phone calls from people telling me about Nova Scotians and others in that ten mile lake behind Hawkes Bay who were fishing out the lake and canning the fish, and there was absolutely nothing we could do about it. There were no regulations in place, nothing in place. I checked it, but I would say to them: well, there is no law, there is no statute, they could go in, they do not need guides, all they needed was a fishing permit I believe.

Mr. Woodford, you probably heard some of those complaints as well out your way; so the problem was, it was a two-pronged approach:

number (1) to conserve and number (2) if you are coming in to take, we want the economic benefits; and of course the employment which comes along with that by the increased number of guides having seasonal jobs, particularly in rural Newfoundland.

We will look at any anomalies there and try to find -

MR. A. SNOW: I would not be surprised at the number of calls that you had while you were in opposition; while I do not get them from Hawkes Bay, I do get some from western Labrador and eastern Labrador.

MR. FUREY: But I take it that you are in general support of the thrust of that policy.

MR. A. SNOW: Yes, with a few corrections, if you will. One of the suggestions was that the guides be appointed as wardens. This would probably help.

MR. FUREY: That is a thought, yes.

MR. A. SNOW: I believe other provinces use that method.

MR. FUREY: Do they deputise them for that period of time when they are guiding? That is a thought; it is a good idea.

MR. A. SNOW: You mentioned that you were not sure what the effects of the public sector lay-offs or rationalization will be on the economy especially Tourism; I am not sure if you suggested that there is going to be an increase in the value of Tourism to the Province this year, I am not sure if it were you or Mr. Blundon, it was you, Mr. Minister?

Well, I find it difficult to understand if there is going to be an increase, how can you suggest that you have not factored in the fact, that we are going to have a couple thousand fewer people working in the Province?

MR. FUREY: I do not think you listened to me, Mr. Snow -

MR. A. SNOW: I listened to you. Undoubtedly, Mr. Furey, it is just that I probably did not understand it, that is all.

MR. FUREY: Well you obviously did not understand it.

What I said was, when you take one person's job away, the economy shrinks to the extent that, that person does not have the same income. Now, I said that when these jobs are taken away, yes, it will have an impact, there is no question that it will have an impact.

Counter point to that, is the Hibernia and other projects that are happening in this Province which is causing a significant influx of foreign travellers into this Province; they have to eat, they need their suits pressed, they need hotel rooms, they need to rent cars, they pay for airline tickets and on and on and on and on. I am telling you that is going to cause a significant increase, and it is not my projections.

These are the projections of The Tourism Research Institute of Canada, which is a sub-component of the Conference Board of Canada, and they are saying that in Canada generally, tourism will be down, but they are saying specifically in Alberta and in Newfoundland, there will be increases, there will be positive growth, so while other provinces will experience negative growth, Newfoundland and Labrador and I believe Alberta, will experience positive growth.

Perhaps the most compelling reason for that is Hibernia's shift into high gear as a great number of contracts will be called; I think for example, over the next three months there will be some $500 million worth of contracts called and tendered and money flowing, so that has to have a positive impact.

It would be far more positive if we did not have those people laid off; but, you understand the economics, you are a businessman, you know why we had to do that; we did not want to do it, it was painful to do it, if we had our druthers we would not do it, it was actually a very despicable thing to do from our point of view, but you know what the limited options were.

Increased taxation in a Province that is burdened with the most ridiculous taxes in the country; swell the deficit even further beyond the $5.4 billion to which it grew over the last eighteen years, or cut services, recognizing that the bond markets would limit your ability to borrow, so those were the options and in that context, had there not been significant layoffs, there would have been even more positive growth, but we are still on a positive growth pattern and that is what I am saying.

MR. A. SNOW: Yes. I am not questioning the merits of why you did the, to quote you: 'the despicable act of laying off the public employee'. I am not questioning the merits of that, I question whether or not there is going to be an increase in the value of tourism because of the fact that I believe that those surveys were done prior to the announcements of the public sector layoffs. So no, I do not want to be considered as just raining on your parade, but merely to suggest to you that the figures are not correct. Because it was not factored in what the affect would be of having several thousand public sector employees laid off.

MR. FUREY: And I am saying to you that it was a despicable position to be in, to have to do that. Will it cause a percentage or a partial percentage point downward? It may. I have no way of predicting that. But I can tell you that we expect a significant influx of people doing business in this Province over the next twelve months and that has caused us to agree with the Tourism Research Institute, which is a branch of the Conference Board of Canada, which says clearly that Newfoundland is on a positive growth pattern and it will be one of two provinces in the country that will grow.

MR. A. SNOW: Prior to the layoffs that was done. Anyway. With regard to travel generators in the Province, one of the upcoming events that a lot of people within and outside the Province have been talking about is the 500th anniversary celebrations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Snow, by all means carry on with your question. The Minister can deal with it. I just want to remind you that you personally are fast approaching the thirty minute mark and I may want, after this question, to move to someone else unless they want to grant you the leave. But carry on with that question.

MR. A. SNOW: I apologize if I am taking anybody else's time. They can surely interject. I could not have been a half an hour, it must have been the length of the answers (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: Anyway, the 500th anniversary: I wonder what the status of that is, the celebrations. I think that it is something that is very important to this Province and -

MR. FUREY: It is and we are paying quite a lot of attention to it. It is being led right now by Minister Gullage under the Historic Resources section, and there is a special anniversaries committee chairman in place, Mr. Bob Jenkins I believe, and a team of senior officials of which Mr. Blundon sits on that committee. They are working diligently. I have had some preliminary discussions with Ottawa about this. We think it is not just a Provincial celebration but a national celebration and a very important one. We are giving it a lot of attention. I do not know if Mr. Blundon wants to add something from the committee perspective. I do not know if there is much to add really, is there?

MR. BLUNDON: Only that the planning process started about a year ago and we thought the 1997 celebration was far too big for a senior group of bureaucrats to look after themselves and get everybody in all corners of the Province involved. We sought Cabinet approval to widen the scope of that committee. Recently they have approved that and over the next five to six months I think every community in the Province is going to see some activity starting associated with that 500th anniversary celebration. We have five years to do all the planning, put everything in place, and it is something that we have never had this much lead time in the past. However, we have never had an anniversary of this significance in our history. It should dwarf anything that has ever been done.

MR. A. SNOW: I seem to remember reading something about where another province is claiming a similar right to the landing site -the Province of Nova Scotia, I think it is.

MR. FUREY: I think Cape Breton was saying that one Giovanni Caboto perhaps landed there but they are just talking through their hats. Everybody who knows anything about history knows that he landed at Bonavista Bay in 1497 and we are quite prepared to stand on that historical record and promote it from the perspective of Newfoundland. But if the Cape Bretoners want to come over here and join in the celebrations they are more than welcome.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BLUNDON: Yes, we heard the same rumours and Mr. Jenkins followed up on some of those rumours with some people over in Bristol. There was the comment that the Cape Breton group had made contact with the group in Bristol to try to make arrangements for a replica of Cabot's ship to go to Cape Breton in 1997. Mr. Jenkins followed up on that specifically with the people in Bristol who never heard tell of it. Why are you even bringing up

Cape Breton? -- was the question. Where are they? So, I am not sure there is substance to it.

MR. A. SNOW: Maybe I should request that it be stricken from the record then.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Request granted.

MR. A. SNOW: I do not have anything else right now. Maybe somebody else does?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to make a comment on some of the Minister's remarks pertaining to the increase in tourism for Newfoundland this year. Back in March I read an article which appeared in the Chronicle Herald, Nova Scotia, and they were saying that just pertaining to the Maritime Provinces the only place there would be an increase in domestic pleasure trips would be in Newfoundland, some 2.7 per cent. Just this morning in the Globe and Mail, I think it was the Economic Board of Canada that suggested, it would be a 2.5 per cent increase and I thought it said, if I am not mistaken -

MR. FUREY: Two point five in Newfoundland?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. I think it was only in Newfoundland.

I saw before the same figures you were talking about comparing it with Alberta and I think it is primarily due to Hibernia.

MR. FUREY: Yes, business travel.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, business travel and so on. While it is I suppose below the inflation rate which means no real growth, that is what they are saying, when it is below the inflation rate there is no real growth, it is still a good sign that we are the only Province that would have an increase in any case.

Pertaining to Enterprise Newfoundland and ERC but mainly to Enterprise Newfoundland, what is the difference now between the number of employees employed by Enterprise Newfoundland compared with the number that were employed by NLDC and Rural Development, I believe you gave some figures on that before.

MR. FUREY: I did in the House. Yes.

Did you want me to comment on the Globe and Mail thing first?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

MR. FUREY: My only comment is that I agree with you and it just really confirms some of the projections that my own people in tourism last year came up with. We think that Newfoundland is on the right course but it is not all just business travel. Like Mr. Hewlett, I like to give credit where credit is due and I publicly stated this in a number of my speeches to the hospitality industry and others Mr. Woodford and that is, if there is one area where the previous Government did do a good job it was in tourism and I think they laid a very solid foundation in that industry. I think some of the previous agreements that were negotiated were very good agreements. Even some previous presidents of Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador deserve a little credit and your Chairman here today is a former President.

But previously Government did put a good framework in place, some good groundwork and it is not just business travel, it is the marketing end of it. The marketing that was done in the past was done very well. The marketing that is currently being done is terrific and we are very pleased with it. In fact, we have an increase in our marketing budget this year. Three marketing agreements and an increase in marketing. So while there is an increase in business travel we think there is still going to be an increase of people coming here for purely pleasurable travel to come for adventure tourism, for hiking, canoeing. Now, our winter product has taken off incredibly well on the West Coast and at Clarenville - skiing. How many skied Marble last year?

MR. WOODFORD: Three thousand outside.

MR. BLUNDON: Oh, about 100,000.

Over the last couple of years we have seen a tremendous increase in the number of what we call non-local residents in the Corner Brook area going to Marble and actually it is the same thing for the White Hills. What we are finding is that, yes, discretionary income is down and that will obviously have a negative impact on people travelling. What we are finding is, the awareness of the infrastructure that is in Newfoundland from a park and a historic resources perspective with things coming on stream like ski hills and what have you, people who traditionally would spend three weeks out of the Province are now taking a week of that and are spending it in Newfoundland whether it be in winter activities like skiing, skidooing, cross-country or whatever. The redirection of some of the funds that people traditionally would spend out of the Province - we all recognize that Newfoundlanders probably, as a Province, spend more in Florida than any other province in Canada. With the build up of infrastructure we are finding that people are starting to leave a few dollars in the Province.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I just wanted to make a comment on that. You mentioned the figure of 100,000 through (Inaudible)?

MR. BLUNDON: One hundred thousand skier visits to Marble Mountain.

MR. WOODFORD: Just Marble Mountain alone.

MR. BLUNDON: Just Marble Mountain.

MR. WOODFORD: But that is primarily local, apparently, it is (Inaudible).

MR. BLUNDON: Of that there is, I think, about 10,000 skier visitors would be from out of the Province. Actually they are doing some of their statistics now. I think last year there was another 10,000 or 15,000 skier visits that came from the Avalon Peninsula and other areas of the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BLUNDON: Oh yes, it is on (Inaudible) it has been going up every year.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, there was 3,000 last year from outside the Province and 5,500 from outside the Corner Brook area.

MR. BLUNDON: Yes. That is 3,000 people. But they stayed an average of three days, so that is where they get these 10,000 skier visits.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, longer stay, yes.

MR. FUREY: Just to pick up on that point. I am very impressed with what is happening at Marble Mountain. I think that it is a real classical example of diversification and I think that every government dollar in the past that was put in there was well spent. And every government dollar, and this Government particularly has put in a lot of 100 cent Provincial dollars in the last two years. Hopefully when the tourism agreement is signed there is a component there for Marble Mountain as well.

Just turning to your other question, you asked me how many employees are in Enterprise Newfoundland? How many were previously with NLDC? How many were previously with various departments of the former ministry of RAND and the Department of Development and Tourism, Historic Resources and that kind of thing. When I became Minister of the Department NLDC had sixty-seven employees. From the Department of Development which made up those four ministries that were collapsed into one we moved eighty-two employees into the old NLDC for a total of 149 employees. New employees hired a little over a year ago, I guess, twenty-nine, for a total of 178 employees in the five regions right across the Province.

MR. WOODFORD: What would their total salary be?

MR. FUREY: Total salary. The total salaries and benefits, Mr. Woodford, would be $9.6 million. In other words what I am saying to you is that all employees were there with the exception of twenty-nine. So all these salaries would have been there under the previous government with the exception of twenty-nine, for a total of $9.6 million in salaries and befits.

MR. WOODFORD: There is one thing I could never understand about the - while I agree with the concept of Enterprise Newfoundland, especially with the decentralization part of it and being able to make decisions locally and so on - why you would want a director for Enterprise Newfoundland on either side of the Bay of Islands.

MR. FUREY: Say again.

MR. WOODFORD: There is a director for Enterprise Newfoundland on both sides of the Bay of Islands.

MR. FUREY: A director.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

MR. FUREY: You mean a little satellite office?

MR. WOODFORD: No, no, it is a director, working out of the Enterprise Newfoundland office in Corner Brook.

MR. FUREY: Out of Corner Brook. Yes, okay.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. A director for one side of the Bay of Islands, a director for another on the other side, the north shore. Is there any logical explanation for that?

MR. FUREY: No, I did not think that they were specifically targeted out of regional offices, Mr. Woodford, for specific areas. The only time we give a specific area is in, for example, Labrador West - there is a specific satellite office there. In Deer Lake there is a specific satellite office. But I do not know that they are - are they nominally called 'Bay of Islands South,' 'Bay of Islands North' directors?

MR. WOODFORD: Well, the people whom I have -

MR. FUREY: I would be surprised if that were true, Mr. Woodford. What we do have is a complement of eighteen in that regional office which services a great, large area as you know, all the way south to Burgeo, all the way west to Port aux Basques, all the way north to St. Anthony and all points in between. I do not know that somebody is specifically called the director out of the Corner Brook office specifically for Bay of Islands South.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I can stand to be corrected on that but this is coming from people right in the office, I mean, I have talked to some of them. So I mean maybe it is a wrong interpretation of their job, you know.

MR. FUREY: It may well be. I will have the president -

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) check it for me I mean -

MR. FUREY: - check it out for you.

MR. WOODFORD: When I see a development association working on either side of the Bay of Islands and in White Bay South, and in the Deer Lake area and one ACOA representative for the whole west coast and Labrador area. I just do not understand.

MR. FUREY: Yes. I guess that is why we are doing great work, yes? And ACOA might be a little bit -

MR. WOODFORD: The jury is still out on that.

MR. FUREY: That is true. But we have asked the Federal Government to participate with our offices and they chose to go their own way.

The President may have an answer to what you are talking about in terms of the director for the south and north of the Bay of Islands.

MR. JANES: I think, Mr. Woodford, what we are looking at here is the deployment of regional consultants. As you are probably aware the regional consultants have contacts with the various development agencies, to the extent that there are development agencies in the north shore and the south shore of the Bay of Islands, well then, someone would be responsible and there may be a split so that of two regional consultants they have the north shore and other territory and the other one does the south shore, but as far as directors are concerned, the directing positions in each regional office, there is responsibility for the regional activities and therefore would not have a specific area to deal with. The regional consultants would because it is their requirement to go out and meet with development associations and other clients.

MR. WOODFORD: So if they are there, instead of directors they are called regional consultants.

MR. JANES: A regional consultant, yes.

MR. WOODFORD: We have a consultant to cover Deer Lake, and I believe he covers the White Bay area, so I just could not understand the justification of having one on either side of the Bay of Islands.

MR. FUREY: Your comment about ACOA. You were saying that ACOA has one person?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, to service the west coast, but I agree it is not enough.

MR. FUREY: I would say.

MR. WOODFORD: It is definitely not.

MR. FUREY: Just ask the people in my district. I know this fellow and he has the correct name, he is a sterling performer, that fellow, but he has no authority to make decisions, none whatsoever, and therein lies the difference. We need the manpower and the expertise so that we are making the correct decisions in the regions for the local people, but if you think we are having too many people and you want me to close the office in Deer Lake I will take that under advisement.

MR. WOODFORD: I am not suggesting closing the office but I totally disagree publicly and privately with a consultant on either side of Bay of Islands. It is just not justified as far as I am concerned.

MR. FUREY: But I think they are regional consultants who fan out -

MR. WOODFORD: But, even so, when you look at the population of the north shore versus south, the Deer Lake - White Bay area, and even your area, it certainly does not justify one on either side of the Bay of Islands. That is all.

MR. FUREY: We can certainly check to see. It may be just semantics Mr. Woodford and we will certainly check it out.

MR. WOODFORD: That is right. He may be covering another area in Corner Brook with the north shore. I do not know. I would just like clarification.

MR. FUREY: I am sure we will get the specific answer for you and give it to you.

MR. WOODFORD: Has your Department anything to do with this dimensional stone?

MR. FUREY: In Deer Lake?

MR. WOODFORD: Well, all around the Province. Deer Lake is one but I think that Enterprise Newfoundland and the Gander area is involved with the association in Buchans, the Lumsden area, and so on. What is the latest on that particular project in the Province?

MR. FUREY: I am going to ask Adele to comment on that. The Recovery Commission has been very involved in it, but I should just tell you that I met with people in Deer Lake three weeks ago. For your own benefit, Mr. Len Pye, and perhaps you know him because he has done some work out there. Who is the consultant he hired, the fellow from Corner Brook? He is very involved in hockey but I just forget his name right now. It will come to me in a minute. Anyway, he and I had a very good meeting at the Deer Lake motel for an hour or so, and he claims to have found a substantial amount of marble, for example, in the (Inaudible) area and he has asked my Department for some help to go to a trade show in Italy which takes place during the first or second week of June, and we are now processing his applications under a program called Market Product Development program where we pick up 50 per cent of the cost for people to do that. I think that is being looked at this morning, to help him out with that. It is a substantial cost, you know, to get to these shows, to participate, and to meet contacts and set up new marketplaces for yourself. I think it is $8000 of which we are prepared to pay 50 per cent. With respect to your question on dimensional stone I will ask Adele to address it because the Recovery Commission has been very involved in it and I know through Enterprise that Vice-President Lush in Gander has been very involved as well.

Adele, do you want to address that?

MS. POYNTER: We have been, actually, and it has been a joint effort between the Recovery Commission and the central office for Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador in many areas. First of all, in terms of this group you were talking about, there is now a stone producers association which was an initiative of the Recovery Commission and the vice-president for Central Newfoundland, Fraser Lush and Wayne Humphries, mostly from our office, have worked with that group and they are formed now and they will be representing their concerns and basically trying to get the industry up and going.

As well, we have been involved with several ventures through the corporation again, to help them with financing and other sorts of services and as well, just through our own efforts because we are looking at non-traditionals of applications in the mining industry, so we are working with a number of granite producers in Central Newfoundland.

Many of them are in Central Newfoundland as you know because of the geology, but also with calcium carbonate producers up in Roddickton area and even with bricks on this end, in the Trinity end. We are also looking at some 'furthers' to the value added, processing ceramics facilities, central milling processes on the Baie Verte Peninsula; a number of things really with ENL, initially, and also in conjunction with the Department of Mines because of course they have the lead in that area.

We are also going to be establishing a mining/working group in the fall under the ERC as part of our New Opportunities for Growth; we are looking at various things there, from the business climate to trying to increase the input into the mining industry, so we will be looking beyond new applications, like dimension stone and into for example, input into IOC in Wabush and Labrador City, so we are doing a number of things in the mining area.

MR. FUREY: Just to follow up on that, Mr. Woodford, you would be interested in knowing too, that the Recovery Commission just helped put together a joint venture a little while ago and with some financial support from Enterprise Newfoundland have caused a mine to start operations out in Nut Cove where fifteen people are now working and they hope to expand it significantly.

There is a group coming from Paris next week to take a look at that operation, slate mining, and it is used now as you know in roofing particularly, and it is a big market and it is very hot in California and in a number of places around the world, but the slate out of this mine is said to be extraordinarily exceptional and what we will do is, have people actually mining, cutting, cleaning, preparing for the marketplace, trucking and then shipping, so there are quite a number of jobs in it and there is a substantial find out there I am told, Adele, in Nut Cove.

100 years yes; 5,000 tons a year is it? -- yes. Anyway, these things are happening and this was identified as an opportunity for growth by the Commission and they are pursuing it.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. On the dimensional stone again, I am getting some conflicting reports; yes, Enterprise Newfoundland is involved in it and, yes, they have been very supportive and yes, the ERC and the people in the Department, there were no problems there, but the impression I am getting is that there is a conflict between mines and development or officials in the Departments with regards to where a processing facility should go.

I understand there is a request in for a processing facility in the central area and he has been more or less blocked and stymied and obstacles were put in his place in every way, shape, or form, pertaining to a processing facility, and when I look at a piece in the paper like: the central area may get new grant industry and Central Newfoundland Community College advertised for a male or female stone quarry worker instructor for the work primarily in the Greenspond/Lumsden area, which is one of the areas identified for the dimensional stone and in conjunction with that, when I asked the Minister of Energy, he said the two best places in the Province identified are Seal Cove and Nain; two of the better products -

AN HON. MEMBER: Marble.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, marble.

MR. FUREY: Did he mention the Deer Lake find?

MR. WOODFORD: No. Well that is there but the only thing about the Deer Lake find, apparently it is not as - the colour has a lot to do with it. The Nain one -

MR. FUREY: Have you seen some of the samples?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I saw it but they are not -

MR. FUREY: They are extraordinary, are they not?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes and maybe -

MR. FUREY: The have just drilled 800 feet and pulled up core samples in various parts of the mountain.

MR. WOODFORD: But the show that they had in - where was it, in Arizona or somewhere -

MR. FUREY: I believe so, yes.

MR. WOODFORD: About a couple of months ago they had a show and all those samples were there then, but the two that the people went for, people all around the world especially from Italy I believe, were Seal Cove and Nain, especially the Nain deposit.

But anyway -

MR. FUREY: Nain, did you say Nain or Roddickton?

MR. WOODFORD: No, Nain, that was two -

MR. FUREY: Interesting. You know Roddington is a hot property in terms of marble as well. But let me just address your question, is there a conflict between Energy, Mines and Development?

MR. WOODFORD: What I am getting at is, if someone wants to start a processing facility to process this stone, there seems to be, in my consultations with them that there is some conflict of where

it should go, and that is probably the hang up.

MR. FUREY: I really and truly am at a loss. Let me just say this to you so we do not embarrass any businessman, but if you have a specific businessman who is having that kind of trouble, would you make it known to Adele because the Recovery Commission's job is two fold, it is not just to create an environment of positive business climate and to give us direction on policy, but to remove stumbling blocks and anything that is inhibiting business development and progress. So, Mr. Woodford, would you undertake to give Adele that information?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. I will have to check with him first to see if he wants me to use this. I would not see any problem.

AN HON. MEMBER: I had to work with them.

MR. WOODFORD: Enterprise Newfoundland is saying that it is a viable operation in the Province, and we have another department or two saying that it is not a viable operation, and we are saying now -

MR. FUREY: Now that is a different question than what you just said. Let me just say this: based upon the business plans we are given, we can assess and say: this is a viable opportunity. But if you are saying can we make the judgement on the technical mining side we cannot. So there may well be a conflict for company A who brings in a proposition to us that we say: based on the economics this is wonderful, but based upon the geology and all that technical good stuff that Mines and Energy does, they may say no, there is just not enough there, or the colours are wrong or it cannot be taken out properly, or there are problems. So in that sense, Mr. Woodford, I do not want to mislead you, there may well be a conflict. Is that what you are saying?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I think there is, because they were even stopped funding from ACOA. They had a possibility of getting $500,000 from ACOA to set up and start quarrying and so on, but I think the conflict is in where it should go.

MR. FUREY: Please let us know.

MR. WOODFORD: I will talk to the individual, and if he wishes to contact you I will certainly pass him along to you because I do not think anybody should be stymied in that regard.

MR. FUREY: We agree with you.

MR. WOODFORD: The last time we met I had some questions pertaining to the camps for the Hibernia development, and at that time on that Friday there was supposed to be a possibility of enhancement. There is nothing on it yet, and that has been going on now for about three weeks. What is going on there?

MR. FUREY: The only thing I can tell you is that the HMDC and Nodeco have called in a number of the bidders to get clarification on what they have supplied. It is quite something when sometimes things that are written down need interpretation, so they have called in a number of companies to get interpretation on the bids. If my memory serves me correctly, I think there were fourteen or fifteen companies that bid.

AN HON. MEMBER: Five.

MR. FUREY: Five Newfoundland companies, and fifteen or something in total, but I think Mr. Windsor's question at the time he said it was a fait accompli, that it had gone to a New Brunswick firm, and I disagreed with him vehemently that this contract has not been let. I would predict that it will be let within the next short while, four or five days. Our latest information says four or five days. They are just clarifying some technical matters in the documents so that they can proceed with the award, and that is fair ball.

MR. WOODFORD: I do not know if this is a fair question or not, but I will put it anyway. Are you concerned personally with reports from the Newfoundland companies who just cannot seem to get to first base on the Hibernia project, not only with regards to the main project, I could understand some of that, but with regards to sub-contracts as well.

Especially with the quality assurance and (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Yes, there is a level of concern, Mr. Woodford, there is no question. And some of these companies have made their concerns known to us. Some of them are engineering companies, some of them are small companies that hope to supply products to the various things, but yes, there is a level of concern. In fact today I am meeting with some people from Hibernia to discuss some of those concerns, to ensure that Newfoundland gets what these binding legal agreements say that we should get, and that there is no pussyfooting around or no games being played, and I fully intend to do that. I am meeting with some of the engineering companies in Paris this coming week, and that is my message. Hibernia today but a lot more development up the road tomorrow. Remember that the Government is watching, these agreements are legal, they are binding, and we fully expect to get the fullest of benefits from it.

How has it gone so far? I think if memory serves me correctly there has been over $100 million spent so far. Sixty-five per cent has been Newfoundland content, 20 per cent Canadian content and 15 per cent foreign content. We are doing pretty good so far and there are three mechanisms in place to ensure that the watchdogs are looking from every angle. The Canada-Newfoundland Petroleum Offshore Board, which is a Federal-Provincial organization, you well know; the Offshore Business Division under my Assistant Deputy Minister of Investment, Trade and Technology - is that what you call it? I forget it; and of course the senior management committee of the Hibernia Management Review Committee that is watching each contract as well.

So we have three of these groups looking from three different angles at this and reporting - I think we get quarterly reports - to the Cabinet exactly what is happening, who got what, what sub-contracts are let, how much has been let, how many Newfoundlanders employed, where they are employed. All this kind of stuff. To date it has been very good. But there are some complaints coming in and we are very cognizant of it, we are very aware of it. I fully intend to let some of these people know today over lunch, and I intend to let the senior engineering company know in Paris next week. Because Hibernia is just step one. Terra Nova, Ben Nevis, White Rose and all these other discoveries and possibilities are out there waiting too. If people are not going to play ball and deal with not only the intent and the letter but the spirit of these agreements, we want to let them know upfront early.

MR. WOODFORD: The week before last I spoke on Hibernia at the Chamber of Commerce meeting in Deer Lake. I had a lot of questions. I was really surprised, I think I have mentioned it before, about how many people did not know, did not realize, what the scope of the project was. But in some questioning after I promised to go back to Nodeco and get some information pertaining to the project itself, especially since it started, and the contracts that were let.

I think I made three phone calls to Nodeco. I found them very evasive and slow to respond. When they did I did not get much. I got the name of the contract; name of the company, Newfoundland; name of the company, Paris. Period. No dollars and cents, no phone numbers, no anything. I find them very evasive to be honest with you. I asked a simple question, all publicized I would say over the last couple of months, but I wanted all the contracts put in a form so that I could present it to my people. Why should that be so hard to give, I wonder? Anybody else finding that type of thing?

MR. FUREY: Just on your first point, the business of people not knowing about Hibernia. I have run into a little bit of that, not a lot of it. If anything was hyped out and talked about a lot in the previous years, it was Hibernia. Let's be honest. Mr. Barrett, my predecessor, held many seminars, gave many talks, many speeches, caused all kinds of teams of people to move throughout the Province to ensure that people knew and could prepare and were aware of what was coming. Also, in fact, in the last number of months we have sent teams of people out to do seminars. You are probably aware of it. We did a major seminar in Corner Brook for all the business people in the Humber Valley - Corner Brook area. We did it in Marystown, up at Clarenville and in Goose Bay. So you know, if anybody wanted information about the scope, size, of the project, the costs and the various contracts and subcontracts, well they could certainly have had opportunity to ask those questions.

Now with your specific question on Nodeco, I have not had that problem myself. But I will just let the Deputy deal with other avenues of where you can find information and stuff.

MR. CLYDE GRANTER: Yes, Mr. Woodford, the availability of information on contracts has been a concern. It is still a legitimate concern, I believe. The Petroleum Board, HMDC, Nodeco, NOC, all have been approached on that issue and they have undertaken to be more forthcoming with contract information. I think you will find - I do not know when you had your speech that you referred to - but I think that you will find over the past several weeks that several publications now contain information on qualified bidders. It gives out phone numbers, it encourages local companies to contact these people and if contracts have been awarded it then indicates who the successful contractor was and how he can be contacted. So, it is something I guess that is evolving. It has been a problem and we are still not satisfied that the amount of information that is available is up to the standard that we would expect.

MR. WOODFORD: Just one short comment. So, apparently you and the officials of your Department are finding the same thing, you must have had other complaints about the same thing, I guess, in order to make such a comment.

MR. GRANTER: We have had representation from various companies within the Province and we have followed up on those representations with the petroleum board and with the Hibernia company and with the prime contractors. I think as a result of these representations this, if I could refer to it as greater availability of information, is what we now see.

MR. FUREY: I just mention that I am going to have lunch with some Nodeco people and some Hibernia people in a short while. Certainly, if you want, I can bring your concerns to them directly today.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I would appreciate that. I was not asking anything secret. I was not asking about a contract about to be let, I was asking about contracts that were let. I wanted the names of the companies, their telephone numbers and so on.

MR. FUREY: So, you could direct people for any subcontracts or jobs or whatever. Yes, sure, I understand.

MR. WOODFORD: A simple procedure I thought to be above board.

MR. FUREY: Who did you deal with there?

MR. WOODFORD: The Nodeco Office, there was a lady there and finally after the third call she said yes, we will be glad to provide the information, which was more than forthcoming, but then again when I got it it was useless to me.

MR. FUREY: It was very vague.

MR. WOODFORD: What I was I suppose to do - when you telephone Newfoundland Telephone for a certain company all you get is that it is not listed. I mean it is a terrible thing to have to go through after contracts have already been let. A very simple procedure I would say to give the name of the company and where they are located and the telephone number.

So that is one of the things I think you should address. Apparently, I am not the first one who has had trouble, I have been talking to others.

MR. FUREY: Oh, we have had some companies advise us they have had problems.

MR. WOODFORD: That is all that I have, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Snow.

MR. FUREY: No, you cannot have your chalet.

MR. A. SNOW: Next year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Snow.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Minister, with the announcement last week that the Governor's Park was going into receivership: We are all well aware that it provided a very important role in tourist development in this Province, the fact that it was a training centre for people in the Province in the tourist industry and we have always recognized, of course, the importance of having trained individuals meeting the public or tourists. Will, in fact, the Province or the tourist industry be continuing to use Governor's Park this summer in that role, or will they indeed be using another facility within the Province?

MR. FUREY: I am not sure I can answer that because I do not have the details in front of me on the receivership. I know that Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador and its predecessor NLDC was in there for quite a bit of money. ACOA was in there for quite a bit of money. I do not have the details of why the receiver went in or what caused the receivership to go in or what the receiver's plans are. But we will certainly take a look at it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Department of Development's Estimates 1.1.01 through 4.3.03 carry?

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.3.03, carried.

On motion, Department of Development, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, thank you and your officials for attending. Before the Committee leaves I would like to move the Resource Estimates of May 9, 1991, Department of Forestry and Agriculture.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

I would like to thank the Committee for their cooperation over the last while. This ends the Resource Estimates for our Committee and I would like to thank all those involved.

The meeting now stands adjourned.