May 25, 1993                                                           RESOURCE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE


The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

MR. PENNEY: I call this meeting to order and I welcome you to the first meeting of the Resource Estimates Committee to approve the budget estimates for the Departments of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture, Mines and Energy, Tourism and Culture and Industry, Trade and Technology.

The first order of business I understand is to elect a chairman of this Committee.

On motion of Dr. Hulan, seconded by Mr. Tulk, Mr. Penney was elected chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN (PENNEY): I would now entertain a motion to elect a vice-chairman for this Committee.

On motion of Mr. Tulk, seconded by Dr. Hulan, Mr. Rick Woodford was elected vice-chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: As the chairman of your Committee I would like to explain to you, particularly those of you who are here for the first time with those kinds of proceedings, that the role of the chairman is very similar to the role of the Speaker in the House of Assembly. It is to maintain order and decorum but we have a much more informal atmosphere here than we would have in the House of Assembly. The dress code is much more relaxed. It is not necessary that you keep your jackets on during the proceedings. If you wish you can bring your cup of coffee in here into the Chamber. As well, members will not be required to be introduced by the district that they represent but can be introduced by name.

The procedures that we will be following here tonight, and I have discussed this with the vice-chairman, we will allow the minister fifteen minutes to make his opening remarks. Now, if he strays beyond that for a minute or so we will be lenient enough to accept that. We will allow equal amount of time for the first member representing the Official Opposition to respond. Now, I am assuming that would be Mr. Woodford, if need not be. Mr. Woodford acknowledges that it will be him. We will allow him equal opportunity. Then what we will do is allow members ten minutes each and we have agreed as well, rather than allow this to become a ten minute speech by the member, than a ten minute speech back by the minister, we would prefer to do it in a manner that we have done it at some previous sittings of these committees. We do it very similar to the way it is done in Question Period in the House of Assembly. We will ask the member to keep his comments brief and to ask a single question, allow the minister to reply to that question and when the ten minutes are up we will go on to another member but we will allow you as much opportunity as you need. So, the fact that your ten minutes are up does not mean that you will not get another opportunity. We will continue on as long as we need to. I will ask the cooperation of all members in assuring that that procedure is followed.

Tonight we will be dealing with the estimates of the Department of Tourism and Culture and it is my pleasure to welcome to this gathering the minister responsible for that department, the hon. James Walsh.

I would now like to introduce to you the members of our Committee, my name is Melvin Penney, I will be chairing the Committee and I represent the District of Lewisporte; on my left is Rick Woodford, the Member for Humber Valley and our Vice-Chairman; Dr. Bud Hulan the Liberal Member for St. George's; Mr. Paul Shelley, the Progressive Conservative Member for Baie Verte - White Bay; Mr. Beaton Tulk the Liberal Member for Fogo; Mr. Don Whelan the Liberal Member for Harbour Main. There is another member of the Committee who is not yet here. I expect Mr. Ed Byrne the PC Member for Kilbride will be joining us shortly.

I would also at this time like to introduce to you the table officer for this evening, Elizabeth Murphy.

I will ask the minister now to introduce his officials, to introduce them by name and by the title that they hold within his department.

MR. WALSH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It is indeed a pleasure for me to be here tonight to deal with the estimates of our department and by way of introduction, to my left is Bob Jenkins, deputy minister of our department; Rick, you can go ahead and introduce yourself and then we will go to the back row and let people do their own.

Rick Hayward, Director of Finance and General Operations.

Don Hustins, Director of Provincial Parks.

Jim Hancock, Director of Wildlife.

Kay Mullins, Director Human Resources.

Sid Blundon, assistant deputy minister of Tourism and Craft Development.

Bill Frost, assistant deputy minister of Cultural Affairs, Historic Resources and Provincial Archives.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

I would like to remind everybody here tonight that the proceedings for this evening are being recorded by Hansard, and I would ask everybody to speak directly into the microphone and I would also ask the ministers' officials if they would introduce themselves each time that they speak.

It is a little bit different from normal proceedings of the House of Assembly where everybody is assigned a particular seat, and the Hansard officers would know exactly who is in which seat, so before we speak I would ask that you introduce yourself for convenience, and also would remind the members of the Committee that questions can be addressed only to the minister. The minister's officials can respond to the question only if requested by the minister to do so, and remind them as well that they cannot speak to any area of policy. It must be just the questions or answers dealing with fact.

Having said all of that I will now ask the minister to make his opening remarks.

MR. WALSH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want first off to say that it is a pleasure for me to be here this evening on behalf of the Department of Tourism and Culture, a new department which was formed in July of last year, and of which for the last nine months I have had the privilege and pleasure of being the minister.

You have already met the officials and I want to thank all of them for being here with me this evening, but also the two directors who are here tonight, Bob Winsor was going through my mind, and who is the assistant deputy minister, but he is out of the Province on behalf of the department so directors Jim and Don agreed to come along this evening as well.

I think, just for a basic background we should look at government's purpose in forming this new department, which was really to give the emphasis for which we have been looking for a long time in this Province, in terms of promoting the richness of our Province, both in its scenic values, our historical resources, but also in terms of the cultural background of our Province as well, and I think that the new department is without a doubt, an opportunity to cover off those things.

The estimates of course, this evening with which we will be dealing, will be covering the department in its entirety and I thought just for a brief moment I might touch on what the department itself consists of. Every department has its own breakout I suppose, but ours being a new one, I just thought I would touch on some of the aspects for which the Department of Tourism and Culture is responsible, in particular, there are a number of items that include tourism in general, also responsible for the crafts or the cottage industries in our Province, and on the cultural side of course, there are historic resources, museums and archives, and we have the parks and wildlife and a number of other divisions that break out from there.

Sid Blundon has already introduced himself and, of course, he is assistant deputy minister and is responsible for tourism and craft development. Bob Winsor, as I said, who is out of the Province is responsible for parks and wildlife. Bill Frost who most of you know from his past involvement with culture and historic resources retains that position with us. These are the three positions really that are the breakout of what our department consists of. Of course we also have, as most departments would, a director of human resources and financial administration, and we have a director of public relations, and all of those individuals report directly to the deputy minister, Bob Jenkins.

As opposed to going through what the department consists of in terms of a break out of each of the divisions I think most of you, having been familiar with the House and also familiar with the activities of the various branches over the past number of years, will have a fairly concise background as to what it is we are looking to do in the Province within the department. Like I said it has only been nine months but it has been nine months of a tremendous amount of activity in terms of formulating and pulling together this new department. Also, over the last nine months we have really set out to put a mark on the Province for the department and we have done that in as positive a way as we possibly can. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to utilize the time for the sake of using the time. That is just an overview of what the department is and I will endeavour to answer whatever questions are put forward tonight. I will say immediately that should there be something that technically we do not have the information in front of us, rather than pretend that we know, I will not play with the numbers. If there is something you are looking for that we do not have the full background on I make a commitment that we will get that information for you. I will on occasion turn to my officials and ask for their guidance in some of the things you may wish to discuss tonight.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity for the opening remarks and I will go back to you for your decision as to where to go from here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Before turning it over to Mr. Woodford for his fifteen minutes I would like to invite the members of the media to join us here on the Chamber floor. If it would be more convenient for them they are more than welcome to come down and sit in one of the member's chairs.

I now turn it over to Rick Woodford for his fifteen minute statement, if he wishes to use that length of time.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. WOODFORD: I can remember a time when the hon. member did not mind taking up three hours of the estimates, I can assure him.

Mr. Minister, going back to the Budget 1993 I would like to touch on three issues pertaining to tourism and culture, albeit different headings in your department. First, as announced in the March 18 Budget the net operating cost of the Province's Arts and Cultures Centres would be reduced. I just forget the exact figure of the reduction on that now, if any, in the actual expenditure, the actual heading, or the vote. Without getting into specific figures could you give me some information as to what has been done with regard to Arts and Culture Centres, and if not what are you going to do?

I will just go back and forth like that and you can answer now.

MR. WALSH: I guess in basic theory what we've looked at doing in terms of the Arts and Culture Centres is first and foremost we've tried to rationalize them as much as we possibly can in terms of once and for all identifying not just the role of the Arts and Culture Centres in our Province, because the government feels very strongly and is very much committed to the development of culture in our Province for its own sake. Sometimes when you try to rationalize, or when you use the term rationalizing what the Arts and Culture Centres are all about, the first thought that comes is: oh, look out, here comes change.

In some cases that may be true. But after twenty-five years of following a very basic pattern that former premier Joseph R. Smallwood laid out for the Centres, we felt it was time for us to stand back and take a good hard look at where we are and where we're going. That's exactly what we want to do. Some of the areas for example that we have held the line on for over four years now are the rentals themselves. When you look at the rentals for the Arts and Culture Centres they have not been that high. We're getting somewhere in the neighbourhood of $250,000 a year in terms of rentals.

We're also looking at the kinds of activities that we're involved in in terms of the promotion of culture. I think in our attempt to rationalize that we're also trying to look at ways that we can fill the stages more often, and in particular fill those stages more often with our own local grown talent. In doing that we've been able to, for example, with various productions that come in from the mainland, to perform on our stages, we have reduced in terms of the cost of some of the productions that are coming in by ensuring that local Newfoundland performers can participate with whatever production is coming to town.

That doesn't mean when the Royal Winnipeg Ballet comes that we can inject someone into that production. That's not possible. What we can do is to take someone who has an expertise, or trying to develop an expertise in stage production, that we can take those people and make them a part of what's happening there as a learning experience. So we've been doing some of those things as well.

The other thing that we have to do is that we also have to look at the kinds of productions that are coming into the Province. If there's anywhere that we have affected our costing this year it probably will be on imported productions, and that's where you'll see some of our cutbacks. We're looking to promote more of our home grown talent on the stages of our Arts and Culture Centres, and that's what we're attempting to do.

MR. WOODFORD: So your cutbacks this year - I notice in Grants and Subsidies under Culture your 3.1.01.10, on page 195. Grants and Subsidies are cut back $96,600 in the estimates for 1993-1994. Is that money directed to Arts and Culture Centres in the Province?

MR. WALSH: No. That really covers the various groups and organizations in the Province that the department has supported over a number of years. Although administered through the cultural affairs division, that is in actual fact the funds that we would give to various groups across Newfoundland in order for them to carry out their own activities.

MR. WOODFORD: But yet the heading says: "...administrative and technical support for the programming activities of the Province's Arts and Culture Centres."

MR. WALSH: Let me just -

MR. WOODFORD: Why would they differ?

MR. WALSH: Somewhere we had to put the grants and subsidies for the various groups that we're trying to support and help throughout the Province. I guess from a departmental position that's pretty well where it ended up, being administered by the assistant deputy minister and also by the director of cultural affairs, who would be very much involved in it as well. Because of that I guess somewhere we had to do the grouping and for departmental purposes that's where the grouping fit.

MR. WOODFORD: I don't mean to be obnoxious or to try to be... but usually the headings under your votes are different when it comes to grants and subsidies, as is indicative under Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, under the Craft Council, under the Travel Generators, and so on. Yet under the heading of Arts and Culture Centres, the $96,600 I don't think includes grants and subsidies for all the groups in the Province. My reading of the estimates would read that that's primarily a cut for Arts and Culture Centres alone. If not, then the grants and subsidies under the Public Libraries Board, under the Travel Generators for Marble Mountain, under Tourist Facilities, under the Arts Council, why would they be separated?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: That's right.

MR. WALSH: These are more general grants. A lot of them are also grants that are directly, in some cases, tied to funding mechanisms from the federal government. Not all of them, but some of them are. They're tied to interprovincial and some other national agencies that are involved in some way, shape or form.

I tend to agree with you that maybe they should have all been lumped in one particular heading. But under the Arts and Culture Centres heading, if you look at it, it says: "Appropriations provide for the development and organization of cultural programs, administrative and technical support for the programming activities of the Province's Arts and Culture Centres." In most cases, those that we believe are directly related to or tied to those. In those areas, as you said, there are the publishers grants, and the LSPU Hall, for example, and Them Days magazine. Those are the ones that are grouped in that particular category.

MR. WOODFORD: That's what I'm getting at. It has nothing to do with the other headings in this particular estimate. That's what I'm getting at with regards to Arts and Culture. So there is another part of the Culture grants and subsidies included in that particular heading other than Arts and Culture Centres.

MR. WALSH: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: But a part of that is what you're talking about.

MR. WALSH: This is pretty well the cultural side of the Arts Centres.

MR. WOODFORD: Do you have a breakdown of the actual cut to the Arts and Culture Centres themselves?

MR. WALSH: The Centres themselves?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. Or does that include any of it?

MR. WALSH: When you say a breakdown, what in particular?

MR. WOODFORD: Anything that's going to the Centre itself. Say for instance - or would it come under Purchased Services, or something like that? I guess it probably could come under that.

MR. WALSH: Under 3.1.01, that's pretty well the breakout for the Centres themselves and their operations.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: That would be the heading for that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: We haven't broken them out into six different Centres. They're brought together under a single administration.

MR. WOODFORD: Under your Strategic Economic Plan you say, and I quote: transfer administration and control of Arts and Culture Centres to appropriate regional or community organizations. What steps have been taken for the transfer of those properties, and if not, when will you be taking some steps to do so?

MR. WALSH: In actual fact, in terms of the direction we have taken, what we've been able to do to date is spend some preliminary time with various communities in the Province that themselves have expressed an interest. What we have done is we've held preliminary meetings with a number of mayors of a couple of towns that are interested. We've also met with one group who have a specific interest in one of the Centres for their own purposes, in terms of how they see their own future. We probably would have been a little further along but we got interrupted there in April with some other activities that we were all involved in.

We will now go back to beginning a discussion period with the various groups that are interested. We are beginning in, I guess, two particular areas of the Province where an interest has been expressed to us. That will be the beginning of the process of the devolution of the Arts and Culture Centres to community based. Particularly, broad based organizations not any one organization will have an opportunity to control an Arts and Cultural Centre. We are looking for people who are made up of the towns themselves and the neighbouring towns in some cases but also we are looking to involve various groups who have a vested interest across the Province. It could be the Rotary Club because of the Rotary Music Festival that takes place in various centres or groups like that. We want to build on that with them.

I believe that as a department we should not be involved in the physical operation of the properties rather we should be involved in guaranteeing that we are one of the major tenants of those properties. It is not our intention to reduce the number of performances that would be shown on these stages, just the opposite. We believe that by redirecting our energies we can fill the stages that much more but more importantly the Centres themselves have an opportunity to be utilized at a much greater level, at a community level. In particular, I refer to some very good high school groups that are not only performing their normal concerts but some very good drama groups that are not able to access the Centres the way they would like. Instead they have to perform their various works in a school auditorium. We think that we can get greater utilization of the properties in this way than under the current system.

MR. WOODFORD: So, what you are saying then basically is that, in a short while Arts and Culture Centres across the Province will be divested by the provincial government one way or the other.

MR. WALSH: Where it is practical and where it is feasible, yes, that is the intention. The strategic economic plan is very forthright, it says the devolution of the Arts and Culture Centres but we want to ensure that the Centres themselves are going to be able to survive afterwards. We want to ensure also that the facilities are going to receive the maximum use and that is not what they are doing now. What we are finding now is just the opposite. We are finding that the season is getting shorter every year and that people we wish to access the stage are finding it more difficult to do so. I think if the Centres themselves were community based and community - they are community based mind you, if they are community driven they have a much greater opportunity of seeing maximum utilization which is really what they were designed for in the first place.

MR. WOODFORD: My fifteen minutes is up there now.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford has used his fifteen minutes. I appreciate the fact that he was willing to relinquish without any admonition from the Chair. The first member of our Committee that has shown an indication that he wishes to jump right into the questioning or to the debate is Mr. Tulk. So, I now turn it over to Mr. Tulk for the next ten minutes.

MR. TULK: I will not need ten minutes, Mr. Chairman. I just want to, first of all, congratulate the minister and the government on establishing the new Department of Tourism and Culture. I think it was one of the things that was laid out in the strategic economic plan for the Province. I believe that was in July 1992 and I think it was practically done immediately -

MR. WALSH: - within thirty days.

MR. TULK: - within thirty days. So, it shows the kind of interest that the government does have, the Cabinet and the government as a whole, does have in the tourism industry in the Province and I think they are to be commended for that. I noticed too that if you read through the recommendations that are put in place and if you follow public pronouncements in the Province, you will see that most of the recommendations in some way or other that is in the strategic economic plan are being acted upon in some fashion. Again, the minister is to be commended for that and obviously he is earning the somewhat modest salary he is being paid. I would like to, as I said, congratulate him on the effort he has put in, and that his officials have put into bringing about many of those recommendations or at least getting a start on them.

There are a couple I am not familiar with and one is of particular interest. It is of particular interest from my own district's point of view, and that is the use of our salmon rivers as a recreational facility and the advantages of employment that can bring to us. I would like the minister to comment upon that aspect of tourism in the Province, just what benefit he sees in the future and not what it is now. I do not think many people in this Province are sure at this point exactly what is going to happen to the salmon rivers in the Province as a source of recreational facilities, and indeed as a source of revenue for the Province. I would like for him to comment on where he sees that going. The other thing is to perhaps give us some update on what is happening with the John Cabot 500th Anniversary Corporation.

MR. WALSH: First of all I want to thank the Member for Fogo for his kind words.

MR. TULK: The truest words that ever came out of my mouth.

MR. WALSH: I appreciate they were for me.

When you look at the strategic economic plan as was announced by the Premier in June of last year and less than thirty days after the setting forth of the document, which is a living document, because as the Member for Fogo said virtually every item in that document is being worked on in some shape or form. Twenty-two of the 134 items in the strategic economic plan are very specific to the Department of Tourism and Culture, in particular when he mentioned the salmonoid enhancement program that is taking place.

Our department is responsible for approximately $1 million of the $21 million that has been announced and it is our intention to work very closely with the Department of Fisheries, locally and the federal government as well, to ensure that our rivers are brought back to life and that is the intention. We are working very closely with other groups in the Province as well who have a special interest in ensuring that the salmon stocks are brought back, and also in some cases that the trout stocks themselves are brought back as well.

In terms of what it is that our department is doing, well the first thing we have to do for the first two years - and we pick two years not as an arbitrary number but as a realistic date in order to give us a true assessment of what it is and what kind of condition the rivers are in. I must say when I look at the buy-back program by the federal government, virtually 80 per cent of people on the island portion have sold their licenses back to the federal government, and very unique, in Labrador where the pressure to resell your license back to the federal government was somewhat limited, some 40 per cent of the people there have taken advantage of it, and we are above that now. What we are finding is that already the rivers are starting to come back to life.

AN HON. MEMBER: Gander River, for example. (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: There was somewhere around 22,000 last year and what we are seeing there more than anything will be that five years from now virtually all of our rivers should be back to being very strong, but that is part of the assessment that we have to do. When we find a river like the Gander River that is doing exceptionally well we feel real good about that because we know that the direction we are taking is a good, solid, and strong one. Then there are other rivers that are not coming back as well as they should and those are the rivers that over the two year study period and assessment period will give us an opportunity to find out what we will have to do in terms of making sure that those rivers are brought back to life. That is where the enhancement program will come into its own, in the latter years of the agreement, so the $21.4 million that has come to us via a federal/provincial agreement, and I have to give full credit to the federal government for their contribution to this program. It is extremely important to us as a Province, and extremely important to us in terms of developing our tourism industry. I don't just mean those who are coming from outside the Province. I mean those in the Province who are moving either from St. John's out to Gander to fish for a weekend or -

MR. TULK: Gander Bay. Not Gander.

MR. WALSH: - or Gander Bay, or going on to other places, and staying in the 'bed and breakfasts' and enjoying the hospitality that they would receive there. It's very important to us, and I must say I'm really pleased with what we're seeing to date.

I also want to give to our people in our Wildlife branch, I really have to sing their praises here. Because they've been very much involved in what we're attempting to do and they themselves have come forward with ideas that we think will even protect the salmon in years to come. Our conservation program is one that we're very proud of. For the first time ever we find that our officials are working very closely with federal officials, and able to break down barriers for cross jurisdiction. Those are the kinds of things that are unfolding very nicely in this Province. I think we're going to be very proud of what we can see.

It'll all fit very comfortably of course in a full recreational fishery strategy that we'll see unfolding in the coming months as well. I guess we're almost back from extinction, if that's the kind of word to use. But the numbers that you quoted yourself, going from 8,000 up to 22,000 in little better than a year, is something that we now know we're going in the right direction. Five years from now we'll have a tremendous recreational fishery that we can draw upon. Not only for people who live in this Province, but as a tremendous source of revenue generating, in terms of bringing funds in from around the world. I think that the Atlantic Salmon is probably the one that people would want to participate in terms of a trophy fish. We used to have them, and I think this salmon enhancement program will bring them back to us.

You also mentioned the Cabot 500. Cabot 500, of course, is going to be - the John Cabot 500 Corporation is in place. We've just rounded out the entire board of directors -

MR. TULK: So that's done already.

MR. WALSH: Yes. The Corporation is in place, the board of directors is in place. We've even stretched outside the board to involve what one might think are remote communities, but people who are knocking at our door wanting to be involved. When I say communities I'm talking about places like Venice, Italy. The Columbo Caboto 500 Committee. We tend to forget that John Cabot is really Giovanni Caboto, a merchant of Venice. We tend to think of our connection with Bristol and where our forefathers came from in terms of England, Ireland and Scotland. Yet the people of Venice and the people of Italy want very much to be a part of what we're doing as well. So we've even gone that far. We have an ex officio member who's been appointed from the Canadian Columbo Caboto 500 Committee. But where are we with it?

The Corporation is up and running. They have a phone number, I believe it's 754-1997. They have a staff in place. We've just, in association with the federal government, had a $200,000 consultant's study started, so that we can look at the kinds of activities that we could be involved in over the coming years to prepare for it. We also look at the fact that our own department put in $100,000 this year, separate from the funds for the study, and that was matched by ACOA, so that they now have some operating money so that the committee can carry out their duties. We're feeling very comfortable with the kinds of activities that they're involved in.

The first thing they have to do, of course, is to identify the kinds of things that we want to do in the Province. We're not looking for it to be another Soiree '88 where we're going to have little festivals and things all over. This is much larger than that. There's a corporation in Bristol, the honorary chairman being Prince Philip. Prince Philip is I think the honorary chairman, and Bill Frost might correct me if I'm wrong there -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: He is - and the intention is to build a Matthew and sail it from Bristol to here, and they intend to be very involved in that and are working very closely with us. Our officials have been back and forth to Bristol to prepare with them the kinds of activities in which we can be involved. This is, without a doubt, going to be an international event and we intend to build it that way. We have been moving cautiously but surely in the kinds of activities that we are carrying out and I can say that 1997, without a doubt will be in the John Cabot Corporation and the plans will be a pinnacle for what is going to happen in this Province.

We are very excited about it; 1997 is not that far away, but I think when the study is finished -

MR. TULK: We will be just starting our next term of office?

MR. WALSH: In actual fact, we will, and with any luck I may even still be the minister. As I was saying, that is where we are with it and we are very, very pleased with it and the tourism impact in itself will be international in scope.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I just have one more question -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am going to have to turn it over to one of the other members of the Committee, but we will get back to you.

MR. TULK: Okay, fantastic!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, I want to say how glad I am to be on this particular Committee because being a newly elected member, tourism just happens to be one of the ones that I believe is the untapped resource in Newfoundland. I do not thing we are even close to where we should be when it comes to tourism, but having said that, I am just going to bring in one specific thing now to light I guess, and that is the provincial parks.

Now I know recently there has been some private investment into provincial parks and I guess the whole reason being to make them more attractive to people. For example, a couple of local parks I know of, some private people who are moving in there to set up concession stands, pedal boats, this type of thing. I want to know where you see provincial parks in the future as it relates to making them more attractive to people so that Newfoundlanders stay home and stay in their own parks as opposed to going outside.

For example, the hook-ups for big trailers, for the larger machines, this type of thing and the concessions that attract kids going into parks and that type of thing, as opposed to going into a gravel pit, going into our provincial parks, so I want to see where it is heading in that direction because I am for that. As a matter of fact, I have talked to some people who are interested in doing that type of thing and I think it is a good idea and I want to know how far it is going to expand and what you see in the future for it?

MR. WALSH: Well first of all, allow me to thank the member for his question but also to agree with him that if there is any resource in this Province that has been untapped and now has an opportunity, because of the focus of a new department, to really tap into and develop a strong base for industry and for people in our Province.

A lot of people tend to forget and probably do not realize, so maybe forget is not the word, but some 12,000 people are involved in the tourism hospitality industry in this Province, and generated some $440 million for our Province last year, so there is a very strong base there for us to build on and that is what the intention of this department is. If we can build on that even by $20 million a year or $25 million a year, and I think we can, you know, that puts us at about a $700 million industry in about ten years and that is what we want to do, and so I share your optimism in terms of what tourism can do for this Province, and it is our intention to make sure that we can bring that about by working on so many fronts and so many directions.

I think particularly you mentioned the parks. There is a task force in place at the present time that is doing a full review of the parks in the Province so that we can see exactly where we are, and again to look at where we can go with the parks, and I do not want to try to assume what that task force is going to say to us, but once the report is released, it will be available automatically to all members of the House of Assembly and we will take our direction from there and go on.

I will say to you that you're absolutely right. For many years the excuse was that we wanted to maintain the parks in our Province in I guess a pristine or natural state. I believe for a long time that was probably a good excuse, because we never had the money to do anything, so when you don't have the money to do it, give a reason why they should stay the same. We now have some, I thought five, but we now have six parks in our Province that have what we call full comfort stations. That's the beginning of what we want to do. We've tried to pick parks in terms of the basic development, in terms of the ones that strategically can relate to the tourists as they travel through the Province, coming in from outside, and our own demographics internally. Barachois Park, Dildo, Notre Dame, Butterpot, Grand Codroy and Pistolet Bay all now have comfort stations in place. We've got an additional, some $200,000 allocated for further park rehabilitation this year and trying to bring them up to that standard.

We may see more involvement by the private sector in the parks with the kinds of activities that you're talking about. I don't believe we're going to see that in all parks. There are some parks I think that we will want to maintain and to isolate from that kind of activity, but for their own reasons. Sand Banks is the one that comes to mind. It's a very natural area mostly made up of sand dunes. I think it's also the home of our piping plover as well, and for those kinds of reasons we're not interested in seeing that kind of development in a park like that.

I say to you that although there are many parks that we will see, I guess for want of another term, free enterprise moving into more and more, there are some that we will want to maintain as they are today. I'm not sure of the exact number of parks. Don, how many do we have in total?

MR. HUSTINS: The number of provincial parks we have is seventy-five and we have another twenty or thereabouts wilderness and ecological reserves.

MR. WALSH: There are some seventy-five parks altogether.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Can I go again?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: Like you say, as far as $200,000 is it, you have for this year, to basically upgrade parks? I think the private sector investment would be a good idea. Of course, with rules in place to make sure it does not turn it into a commercial state but is still kept in its natural state.

Having said that, just commenting on that, I wanted to comment on one other thing with that. I have to use my own district for an example, okay, but I'm sure it relates to other districts, where you have parks off the Trans-Canada. We have a beautiful park on the Baie Verte Peninsula. During my election speech, actually, I even made a note of tourism. Because I said the same thing. I really believe that it's the untapped resource in our Province, especially on my peninsula, because it's beautiful down there, with lots of good fishing, there's good hunting, these types of things.

Tourism on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I summed it up by saying that at the Trans-Canada there's a sign that says: Baie Verte, 63 kilometres. That's all. Who's going to go down into that area? So the signage on the highways as relating to parks and promoting things, I mean, somebody's just not going to drive down sixty-three kilometres because they see a sign that says: provincial park. They'll know what's in it. I know some of these brochures and that are at different places, but I'm talking about things that you see. A lot of people don't go and look through these brochures and look up things. They're travelling along in their big machines on a nice sunny day and they decide they're going to break into a part of the Province.

I just think it would more promotional to have things on the highway that are going to attract people. I really think that's important, I know it is for me. When I go travelling - by the way I'm one of those people, I do take the odd trip out of the Province. But I vacation - I'm a believer in a nice stream, a fly rod, and this type of thing. That's paradise to me. I'm sure it is to a lot of people. That promotion, I think we're really missing out along the Trans-Canada in promoting our places that are off the Trans-Canada.

MR. WALSH: You're absolutely right. I have to say to you that I had the privilege two years ago of chairing a committee that toured the Province to review the state of - not only highway signage in terms of directional but also in terms of being able to identify specific areas and specific routes across the Province. Ironically, some twelve months later I had the privilege of bringing that same paper to government for them to implement and a brand new highway signage policy has now been accepted and adopted by the Province. That was another item under the strategic economic plan that we were to implement and to make sure that we did that. The new highway signage policy will allow a couple of things; one it will allow the accommodations industry to promote themselves on a highway. It will also allow specific attractions to do the same thing. Now, it will not and it has no intention of allowing every car dealer in North America to advertise or every beverage company to do it, that is not the intention. It is simply for directional purposes.

The other thing that we are doing in terms of our marketing strategy for the Province is that we are working out and working on themed touring routes. These are the kinds of things that we are looking to do. Based around those themed touring routes, which will be promoted on the highways, there will be reasons for you to leave the highway to go to specific destinations that we will allow now to be promoted on the Trans-Canada Highway to say to you there is a reason if you are travelling west, to turn left and go down the Baie Verte. There is a reason to go there and you are absolutely right, there is a tremendous country down there that we should be opening up. I think in terms of the kinds of changes that we made in the highway signage policy and a constituent of yours by the name of Bart Philpott, has worked ten years or more to try to make some changes in terms of what was needed, in terms of highway signage for directional purposes but also to attract people to get off that main route. We will see, I think, if not this year we will in the next two years, you will see a tremendous change in what we are doing on the highways and themed touring routes is going to be one of the most important things that we do.

MR. SHELLEY: When is that policy supposed to come into -

MR. WALSH: The policy has been accepted by government in terms of highway signage and the regulations are now being drafted. There are three departments involved. The Department of Tourism and Culture was the lead department in terms of pulling it all together. We now have to deal of course with Work, Services and Transportation in terms of highways and also Municipal and Provincial Affairs because in a lot of cases the highway signage affects municipalities as well. So, collectively the three of us have been now putting the finishing touches to regulations. I would anticipate that albeit not for this particular Summer but by next Fall we will have a good highway signage policy with all the regulations in place for the following year. That is very important. But even more important than that, exactly as you said yourself, is that we need to give people reasons to get off the highway and that is what we are doing now with themed touring routes for the various peninsulas that exist in our Province and your area will not be overlooked. It is one of the ones that we have -

MR. SHELLEY: I brought it up as my area but I would also like for Bonavista and -

MR. WALSH: Oh, I realize that but I am saying your area when I mention peninsula's, the Bonavista Peninsula, the Burin Peninsula, the Southern Shore here, those are the ones that we want to get people into. The longer they stay with us and the further we get them off the highway, the more money they will actually leave in our Province and that is very important to us. They miss so much, as you would anywhere, by just travelling down that highway, you miss so much. We want to get them off the highways and the themed touring routes are going to do that for us.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, I will be watching for that.

MR. WALSH: Okay. If you want some further information on it, I am sure that Sid Blundon might be able to pull some more details on the themed touring routes for you and we can certainly make that available to you.

I have just been told Paul, that the study is being called for within a month, on the themed touring routes. So, we will certainly keep you advised on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bud Hulan.

DR. HULAN: Mr. Chairman, like my hon. colleague to my left, I would like to say that I am very pleased to be on this Committee because, as most, if not all of you in the room know, I have a keen interest in a number of resource areas.

Before I present my question to the minister I would also be remiss if I did not pass on my feelings that I thought the government had to be applauded in recognizing the importance of culture and tourism in this Province by giving it a separate portfolio. I think that was a very important move and a move probably that was long overdue. I also, Mr. Minister, would like to congratulate you on how you have handled and nurtured this new department over the last nine months. From what I see it's going well and I certainly commend you on that.

I have a couple of questions, Mr. Minister. Unlike my hon. colleague to my left I won't be quite as modest. I'll simply tell you that some of them are coming from my interest in my own district, because they directly impact on the beautiful district of St. George's.

The first one is, having spent some time away from this Province, quite a number of years, I have had the criticism, and it is still rightly offered, by tourists coming to this Province, that they can't find a place to stay. In fact, I can remind the Committee that if you get off the ferry in Port aux Basques, with the exception of one bed and breakfast place on the highway at Coal Brook, just outside of South Branch, you will then travel to Corner Brook, a total of about, from that point, 110 miles before you find another place to stay.

I was going through the line items in the estimates here and I'm just trying to find where the line item is that covers bed and breakfast establishments. The reason I ask this is I have a number of constituents that have been told by members of your department, sir, that there will be and there is no additional money for bed and breakfast operations this coming year. Even expansion, let alone putting into new operations. I would like a comment on that, sir.

MR. WALSH: First off, thank you for your kind words with respect to the department and what we've been able to accomplish over the last nine months. I have to say that I believe it's been ten years and nine months in my own particular case, not in terms of the department. But I've had a wonderful opportunity of having been so much a part of the tourism and hospitality industry in Newfoundland for the last fifteen years that these last nine months almost seem - well, I spent the first three months of the last nine months buying up old speeches I made of what government should do and trying to pull them back, so my friends wouldn't remember them. But they did and collectively we've been able to work on a lot of things.

When you talk in terms of your own district, we tend to forget that the capital of the West Coast was actually Sandy Point at one time. I mean, the Bishop of St. George's lived there before he found reason to move into the City of Corner Brook. But that was the capital of the West Coast, and we should not forget that. That's why it's still known as the Archdiocese of St. George's. I don't think they've changed that, and that's where it emanates from.

In terms of the bed and breakfast, in terms of what our department could do in the way of funding and grants, in actual fact the most that we have ever done in terms of funding was, one, to be available to help people in terms of the directions that they could go. I'm not aware of any funds ever being available in the department specifically for.... Now, where the confusion comes in a little bit is, in the old Department of Development, which Tourism was a component of, there was also a branch called Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador. When someone would go to the Department of Development, the Tourism branch, looking for information, a lot of cases that may have been transferred over to the Development side, and then on to their other branch, known as Enterprise Newfoundland.

A different case in terms of ourselves. What we're doing is we don't have the funds available. Sometimes the question causes an improper answer. The question sometimes is: Look, I am looking to open up something and I understand you fellows used to give out money for it and I want money for this. We say: well, we are not involved in that anymore. We never were directly involved in the funding. What we have done is set up regional offices across Newfoundland that have our tourism people living right in the regions so that they can make the physical visits to sites and operations. I think of one in your district of Stephenville Crossing that our officials have been working with for the past number of months. An operation there who are looking to upgrade their facilities and we have been working very closely with them, with ACOA, with ENL and others, helping to pull the package together. That is what we do most. We tend to operate as the catalyst to help direct people where they can find the kind of funds that they are looking for. In most cases ACOA and others have not been looking, I will not say favourably upon bed and breakfasts, they intend to weigh each proposal on its own merits. Some people are looking just simply to upgrade their own properties, probably more for their private use than they are for the commercial use but I have found that there is a richness of heritage in properties in so many places across the Province that very little has to be done with them financially, to bring them up to scratch for two or three rooms service.

In terms of funding, as I said to you, the most we have been able to do with funding is to direct people as to where they could go. We provide the professional advice and the analysis, we provide the support that they would need in preparing their applications to make sure that they do not have to be chasing red tape all over the place. We have been trying to cut through that for them and always we are there in terms of the marketing, the advertising and the actual promotion for those facilities. So if you know of a particular case where the translation or the question or the answer may have been a little different, I am sure that we would be more than interested in hearing from them and working with them.

I will say to you that in my previous life, some six years ago or seven years ago, I was extremely active in bringing about an actual bed and breakfast industry in our Province and the formation of the Bed and Breakfast Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. I understand there are some 250 members in that organization now and still growing. We went out and actively pursued people and wanted to bring them together because we knew that, not only were the numbers important but the fact that they would be working together was important. It allowed them to get greater discounts when they wanted to purchase things, it allowed them to have a stronger voice when they were trying to make representations either to municipalities, provincial or federal governments and I am very proud to say that there are some 250 plus members in that association right now and they still grow. So if we can help and if you know of someone that we may have crossed wires on, let us know.

DR. HULAN: My comments of course are relating, as a specific example, my own District of St. George's but I am sure they are applicable Province-wide.

Another question I have for you, sir, is on the salmon enhancement program. As you know that has a direct impact on the district of St. George's and it's many, many beautiful salmon fishing rivers. With regard to the custodian and the duration that these people are hired for the year, is that going to be changed this coming year? Maybe one of your officials - because certainly last year it was - the salmon are going into the pool's now - they are in the pool's now and they should be cared for right up into November on the Southwest Coast of the Island because the water is still warm and the fish are still around. I know that was a concern by many in the district last year and I would like to raise the issue here because it means dollars of course, if you are going to keep the custodians on longer, and that is what we are talking about here right now, the dollars for the operation of the department.

Before you answer that question I want to make one other comment on this salmon enhancement program. There is a problem starting on the West Coast of Newfoundland, I viewed it this past weekend, seals. There are so many along the coast here now swimming up the rivers as far as eighteen miles upstream and going into the salmon pools and they are really, really having a feast. It is something that your officials should be aware of. In South Branch last weekend, which is roughly seventeen miles from the mouth of the Codroy River, I saw seals in a salmon pool.

MR. WALSH: That is the poacher that we were not expecting.

DR. HULAN: That is right.

MR. WALSH: To answer your first question I can say to you that the department is looking very strongly at an expanded year this year and, I think, some ten officials who would normally come back in the Fall of the year we are hoping to bring them back earlier this year. We are hoping to do that in order to again protect the stocks, so in terms of people working in the area we are looking for the fact that we think there will be a longer period of time and we will be working much closer with DFO in terms of cross jurisdictions to make sure that we are not at odds with each other trying to enforce particular rules on a federal or provincial level, but we are actually working together to enforce rules on both levels. We are finding that is going to work very well for us so for that reason we think our rivers this year will be protected better than they have ever been.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Hulan, I am going to have to turn it over to another member of the Committee but we will get back to you. Because the Committee has been somewhat out of balance since Mr. Byrne did not arrive I am going to turn it over to Mr. Woodford for the next ten minute segment so that we can establish a government/opposition balance, and in the interest of being fair.

Mr. Woodford.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

If people from the other side do not want to attend that is not my problem, that is theirs. I will do it for Mr. Woodford but I am not willing for us to give up time for people who are not in attendance, unless they have some valid reason for not being here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have recognized Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The minister, I am sure, is cognizant of the fact that library boards in the Province have been told they have a $900,000 deficit which government has to recover over the next three years. Is the minister aware of this and what are his plans, or is his department doing anything about it?

MR. WALSH: First, I have to say to you that we have not told the public libraries that they have a $900,000 deficit. An audit of that organization tells us that they have approximately a $900,000 deficit. We did not inform them they had a problem. They created a deficit over a long period of time, over a number of years. They have created the deficit. We did not tell them they had it but when an audit was done we were informed that they had a deficit of that amount of money.

Upon assuming responsibility for the department last July we went through the first one week of layoff that the Libraries Board felt they had to do in order to try to achieve some balancing of their budget this year. I was somewhat concerned about where they were, what they were doing, and where they were going, and subsequently we appointed an independent chairman to chair a committee made up of members of the Libraries Board and representatives of my own department to take a real hard look at where the Libraries Board was and how they got there. We did that mainly because of the Auditor General's Report, more than anything, who the year before had pretty well, I guess, made a scathing attack on that particular group, would be the only thing I could say the Auditor General did. They were very concerned about purchasing practices and a number of other things, so we put an independent committee in place - I should say a committee with an independent chairman in place to do a revision, and we are only now starting to get some of the results back from that. We have also in the interim asked a representative from the internal audit of Finance to go over and to see where we are in terms of that particular group. We've also got a representative from Treasury Board over there now, I guess, in an administrative capacity to see where we are.

But you're correct. There's some $900,000. The only point I'm not sure that you made, and I may have to get you to repeat it for me, I'm not sure if you said that government has told them that they've got to repay that in three years or something. If that was the statement, I have to say to you I'm not aware of government telling them anything of that sort. That decision has not been made.

I understand that the Libraries Board itself is interested in making a proposal to government about how they could repay those funds over some four or five years. But government has not at this point in time dealt with it in the sense of saying: Libraries Board, here's what you do. It's not that they owe the government, they're actually indebted to banks in this city to the tune of $900,000. It's not that they have indebted themselves to this government, but there's actually a chartered bank in the City of St. John's which is on the hook, right now, today, for approximately $900,000.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant, Rick.

MR. WOODFORD: That's the understanding given to the Libraries Board, that they have to make sure that that deficit is wiped out in three years.

MR. WALSH: No, I have the -

MR. TULK: If I could, it seems to me that would be the bank that would be saying to them: you've got to pay it back in three years. If they owe the bank.

MR. WALSH: I guess what I have to say is that at this point in time government has not directed them to pay back the $900,000 in any period of time. It is something that we're waiting for recommendations from the committee, and we're waiting for them to tell us how they want to approach it. I understand that the Libraries Board themselves want to make a recommendation of how they believe they could pay back those funds. But I have to say to you today that government has not directed them that they must pay it back. That's something that we want to see when they come forward with a final report as to where they are and what should be done in terms of the Libraries Board and the libraries in our Province.

MR. WOODFORD: The Libraries Board has no choice right now. Has the department looked at the argument that the Libraries Board are using, not only around the Province but the provincial Library Board itself, in saying that some of this debt was because of salary scale and step progressions that were instituted and approved by government itself?

MR. WALSH: One of the problems we have is that the step progression and other items that are being talked about have been there for I guess seven or eight years. Sometimes they keep creeping up. It's hard for me to try to interpret what they may or may not be saying in light of the fact that as minister I've asked a committee to do a thorough review of the library system in our Province, and in particular the Public Libraries Board, that is chaired by an independent individual, virtually co-chaired by the chairman of the Public Libraries Board itself.

They've worked very well together and they've been very concerned about the situation. We've not put any real undue pressure on them. All I've asked for as minister is: if this committee could simply tell us where they are in actual fact. Then, from that position, we can at least begin to review what it is we can do to help. Government has not directed them to do anything at this point in time other than to participate with the study that we're carrying out under the chairmanship of Mr. Phil Saunders, who is a retired vice-president, I think, of the RoyNat Bank in Newfoundland, and a former branch manager with I think one of the other major banks in the city prior to that. So he's got a long involvement from a banking perspective.

The other reason that he was an ideal choice for this particular chairmanship is the fact of his community involvement; he is very much involved in the community and has given unselfishly of his time to so many projects in this city that I felt that he would also look at it from the perspective of someone who has been very civic minded and would be able to understand how they may have reached that point in time or how they reached where they are at this point in time, but for me to sit here and say that we have told them they must pay back those funds, I have to say that that direction has not come from government at this point in time.

MR. WOODFORD: But government appointed this Donna Brewer to serve on a review committee which is set up by government. She is directly responsible to Treasury Board and anybody who comes under Treasury Board, as far as I am concerned, are number crunchers; and they were put in that department and put in the library board, really that is who is acting as -

MR. WALSH: If my memory is correct, she does not serve on the committee. She is an adviser to the committee and to the board, but she is not a part of the committee that I put together to do a review of the public libraries; she is an adviser. You also have to remember that the executive director of the Public Libraries Board has retired and we felt that someone should go in in the interim until we ascertain where we are and what direction we are taking and that is where Miss Brewer came in and that is her capacity. But I do not view her as a member of that task force that we put in place. She is definitely an adviser to it and an adviser to the Libraries Board of their current situation, but she is a part of Treasury Board, you are right.

MR. WOODFORD: But that is where the directions are coming from now, to the library boards. The Western Regional Library Board was told in no uncertain terms now, for instance: The cancellation of all magazines in twenty-one branches in the Western Regional System is a decision taken by the regional board as a result of the loss of a staff member responsible for magazines and a $17,000 reduction in the library materials budget alone, and I can go on and on with other examples, but that is one part of the budget alone. That decision has been taken already.

MR. WALSH: But that decision will be a decision of the Provincial Libraries Board, not of someone who is acting in an advisory capacity to that board. That decision to date could only be made by the Public Libraries Board itself, not by someone who is offering them advice about their current situation.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, but they have been told in no uncertain terms that those cuts had to come and that is -

MR. WALSH: Well, I am not sure of any exact point, but I -

MR. WOODFORD: - that is not right. Okay, that appointment is in there. The people on the West Coast of the Province, and I can only speak for the western region, all twenty-one on the West Coast, I talked to them on the weekend as I had meetings with them on the weekend, and they, in no uncertain terms have been told those particular things had to be done.

MR. TULK: By whom?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I will allow members of the Committee to question the minister but not to question other members of the committee.

MR. WOODFORD: - and also they have been -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, Mr. Tulk?

MR. TULK: Yes, on a point of order.

If the gentleman is going to sit there and say that it was given the orders, then do not beat around the bush and blame it on somebody from Treasury Board, because the Provincial Library Board did not say so, or say who it is.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, they have also been given the impression, and I suppose they will know within a couple of months, that the provincial board plans to axe all small libraries in the Province.

MR. WALSH: I guess I can sit here and try to speculate on what it is that the Libraries Board is going to do, but I had to say to you that one of the decisions that the Libraries Board has made and that they have informed me of, is that they intend to absolutely live within the budget that has been laid out for them this year, and if in their decision to live within their budget they find that there are some things they may have to eliminate, and that may be twenty-one magazine subscriptions or something, that is their decision.

They have been given an allocation of funds of $5.9 million and they have been asked to live within that amount. Last year they received $6,007,000 so there is not much difference between this year and last year's Budget. The difference is that they do not intend to add to that $900,000 deficit that you referred to, this year. They intend to live within their budget and if there are frills in terms of magazine subscriptions or some other things that they have to deal with they will. With respect to their decision to close libraries, you know that is something I am sure that they would want to discuss with me, as minister, at some point in time, but I will wait the final report of the committee that we have in place before those kinds of decisions are taken by the libraries board.

I am sure that when that final report is complete they will want to sit with us and then make their decisions from there. You have to remember that even though there are some 106 libraries in the Province that come under the Libraries Board, a number of those libraries are actually community operated with volunteers and receive very little funds from the Libraries Board itself. So, to say that a library may close, one has to interpret what it is that - and I am not sure what they have been told, I am just trying to repeat what you were saying, that if they were told that some may close - what they may also be saying is that the mode of operation may be different but that is why I am waiting for a final report to come. So, I cannot answer it. It is very difficult I guess - the hon. Member for Humber Valley - and I want to slip in and say Rick, it is very difficult, I am not sure what they were told in Western and as minister I am waiting for a final report to come from this committee about the plan that the Libraries Board themselves believe that they have to implement and I am waiting to see that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: For the next ten minutes I will turn it over to Mr. Whelan. That will bring us up to approximately 8:30 p.m. at which time we will take a five minute recess for refreshments, then we will get back again. Our refreshments are limited to coffee, tea and water. Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am going to get away from libraries for a minute and get back into the wilderness which I am sure is a place where a lot of us would like to be right now.

First of all I want to say how delighted I am to be here and certainly honoured to be here. Also I wanted to congratulate the Minister of Tourism and Culture for a tremendous job and as well, his team of workers. It is certainly a challenge to start a new department. I suppose it is a big challenge and a very rewarding one, but anyway, getting on to the concerns that I have, I was wondering if there is any consideration given to addressing the problem stemming from the recreational vehicles and their indiscriminate use with regard to the wilderness areas and the areas surrounding the wilderness areas as well. You drive along the Trans-Canada or you go off the Trans-Canada and you just see black ribbons going through marsh lands, and I am sure it is devastating the delicate ecology of the wilderness area, and I was wondering if there is any consideration given to addressing that problem.

MR. WALSH: First off, allow me Don to thank you for your question. I have not had the opportunity to say this publicly, but allow me to do it now, that it must be quite an honour for you to have been elected to represent a district that I understand your father represented as well. I understand there has been only one other father and son team in Newfoundland who has done that and I think that was Senator Fred and probably Bill -

MR. TULK: But never from the same district.

MR. WALSH: - but never from the same district no, and I want to say that is quite an achievement to represent a district that your father represented and you must feel very proud about that.

Let me say to you that in terms of the indiscriminate use of our wilderness by ATVs and so on, I will say to you without getting into great depth on it, that the Minister of Environment and Lands, I understand is about to present the government a paper with respect to the use of those vehicles in our countryside. As you are probably aware, they are already banned, no matter what season, from our ecological reserves and that is enforced very stringently and will continue to be done, but Minister Cowan may very well, if not in this session of the Legislature, probably in the Fall session, will be introducing some very stringent regulations and my understanding is some very stringent regulations with respect to the use of vehicles in the wilderness.

Now I say that only because the Minister of Environment and Lands will be the lead ministry. The Department of Tourism and Culture has been very active with her officials in ensuring that what we are trying to protect will be in that but we are trying to promote in terms of the advantage of our wilderness in terms of our future adventure tourism programs and of the like, that the wilderness will be there for us to be able to utilize and promote without being scarred as it is currently being done and I think it is just a matter of months before you will see appropriate legislation brought forward by government under the lead of the Minister of Environment and Lands, with our department offering total support in being a part of exactly the legislation being prepared.

I think it is just a matter of months before you will see that, and you are right when you say it is needed, and if we soon do not do something, a lot of the countryside that we want to promote, which is in a ten or fifteen or twenty-mile radius of a community, we are not going to be able to promote and we have to be very cautious of protecting the wilderness and that is something that we are determined to do.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you. I do not have any further questions right now, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In that case we will take a brief recess; you are welcome back out to the government common room for about a five-minute recess and we will reconvene at approximately 8:30.

 

Recess

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: The clock is now reading 8.39, I will turn the meeting over to Dr. Hulan for questioning.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am at it again, Mr. Minister, without sounding too much like the opposition colleague of ours, Mr. Woodford, I have to raise the issue of the libraries in the Province. I too have been told by a - in fact, I met Sunday afternoon with a library in Western Newfoundland. Their order has been or what has been suggested to them is that the Provincial Library Board has indicated that they have to recover $900,000 over, I think it is three or five years, I am not sure, they have to recover that. This particular library that I sat in Sunday afternoon for about three hours is owned by - the building itself is owned by the town. The electricity for the library is provided by the town, the assistant in the library is a town paid person, the telephone, hydro and everything is provided by the town. The only contribution coming through the provincial system is about a $7800 grant to look after a part-time librarian.

They have, not in writing so much, but have the clear indication that they will probably be one of the ones that will lose their library privileges and if that were to happen it will be very, very unfortunate, in the fact that the library plays such a vital role in this particular town. For instance, there are children in the town near the library who do not have a place to do their homework so they go to the library to do their homework in the evenings after school. In addition to the regular educational aspects that the library provides the town and considering the District of St. George's with its high illiteracy rate, we must be concerned and I am indeed concerned, over what might happen to that little library. So, I raise it in this committee, Mr. Minister, I will be raising it again, as you can imagine elsewhere but what is going to happen in cases like this?

MR. WALSH: Thank you for your question and concern Bud but let me say to you that I cannot rationalize in my mind what the public libraries board may be anticipating or may believe is coming about or may think what they have to do but I happen to be the minister responsible for public libraries as you can see in terms of the estimates here tonight and I can say to you that no such instruction from my department has been given to the Public Libraries Board to repay, to whoever the funds are owed to, the $900,000 in question. That is why we put a task force in place to review where they are, nor has any instructions been given by my department to the Public Libraries Board to begin a plan to phase out or close libraries in this Province. That has not been done by this department.

Now, I cannot speak for what the Public Libraries Board may be anticipating, I cannot speak for what they believe they should do legally or morally to repay the $900,000 debt load that they have incurred with some of the banks in this Province, I cannot speak for that. I can only speak for the fact that, as minister, I have given no indication on behalf of this government that they must do one, two, three, four, five or any number of items in order to deal with the $900,000. We have not said to them: here is a repayment plan, begin it. We have not done that. We have not said to them save money where you can, if you have to close libraries, do so. We have not done that. We have done just the opposite in that particular case. When they said to us, look, we owe this money and we may have to close libraries the first words from me to the board representatives were, before you take action that says that libraries themselves must close in this Province I think we should wait for the report from the committee itself, and that is very important. That is why this task force or this review committee was put in place with an independent chairman from outside government to look at it, and that is why we asked them to do that. I just had to say to you that there have been no instructions from this department and I cannot believe that any other department would issue instructions without notifying this department that that action must be taken. I can only say to you, no, no, no, we have not done that.

DR. HULAN: It is unfortunate because the indication that the libraries are being given is that indeed government has said it. That is what they are going on and they are saying it is coming from government. It is unfortunate for government that that is the message that is out there, and it is spreading in the community.

I have one other question concerning ferry costs, the ferry costs to get to our fair island, and the impact that has on Newfoundlanders who are away from this Province. Having travelled the ferry for thirty years to come back each summertime when I was away for thirty short years I also was required to dig deep in my pocket more and more each year. That is one aspect of it, of bringing our own people home to see their families which is very, very important to Newfoundland people as we all know in this Chamber. Also there is the negative impact it has on tourism. I have heard you speak before of other concerns but I would just like to have some reassurance here as to what is the plan of attack on that problem?

MR. WALSH: The plan of attach is not much different than it was some months ago when we were advised that Transport Canada had given Marine Atlantic permission to increase ferry rates to this Province while at the same time reducing them from Nova Scotia into Bar Harbour, Main. We are very concerned about that for a number of reasons. When we analyzed the amount by which they were increasing in Newfoundland the cost to come here they would probably collect based on last year's numbers another $400,000, but we found when we took the numbers in Nova Scotia to the United States and looked at the discounts they were offering it pretty well equalled the same amount they are now looking to take out of people coming to this Province.

Our plan has been very basic. We have tried to deal with Marine Atlantic direct. By the way, I have to give Marine Atlantic full marks because they have done an awful lot of things right in terms of upgrading the service, the new Joseph and Clara, and a number of other things they have done which have been very positive, yet the continuing desire to increase the rates into this Province has a negative impact on all the things they have done right. We are going to continue our campaign to bring down the ferry rates and see them go in that other direction. We are going to do it when it is probably the most opportune time for us and I intend to make it a major issue through our department and also through intergovernmental affairs, a major issue in the upcoming federal election. I intend to elicit and solicit from the Leader of the Opposition a very strong commitment that he will commit himself to reducing ferry rates into this Province, and I intend to do the same thing with whoever the future Prime Minster of this country would be. I have had discussions with the federal members in opposition, in the House of Commons, and also with federal members on the government side and I intend to continue that drive.

One of the things we have found that is so upsetting to us is the fact that we deliberately as a government set out three years ago to lower the ferry rates in this Province because we looked at them as an extension of our own highway. For years we have been saying this to the federal government, that the entry into Newfoundland was an extension of our highway network. We felt that the best approach was not to say to the federal government, here is what you must do, we wanted to set the example and we have done that. For three years now we have brought the rates down, in my own district, back and forth to Bell Island, the rates are lower today than they were ten years ago and I am sure the same thing in Fogo and other areas.

In actual fact we said to the federal government: do as we do, not as we say. They have done just the opposite, they have continued to increase it. I say to you that even last year when the other maritime provinces were seeing decreases in their tourism dollars and in the tourists visiting their areas, Newfoundland actually saw a slight, ever so slight, increase. I say to you that if you want to make tourism the industry that it can become in Newfoundland, the key to it is the lower rates and I do not intend to let it go. I intend to maintain the battle, we have drawn the lines, I am going to work as much as I can in cooperation with the official's at Marine Atlantic but if I cannot get the results there then I intend to do it on the federal level. I intend too, if there is nothing else I accomplish in my tenure in politics in this Province it will be to make sure that the rates coming into this Province reflect what they would be if it was our Trans-Canada Highway and I do not intend to let that go. I have to say that it is one of the few items that both sides of this legislature have endorsed totally. I must say, I want to compliment both sides of the House because both sides have said this has to be done in order for us to see the economic growth that we can attain from tourism.

DR. HULAN: Well, Sir, you are preaching to the converted and you will have my full support I can assure you. I have one final little comment and it is made in a little lighter moment but I lived in Nova Scotia for many years and they too claimed John Cabot and how are Nova Scotian's feeling about the great celebration that our fair Province is planning in 1997? I am saying that with a little tongue in cheek, Sir.

MR. WALSH: Well, let me say without tongue in cheek that I am sure they are wishing us very well because when you have a $1 million vessel being built in Bristol which intends to - a little more, probably more than a $1 million - that intends to sail to Bonavista, I am sure that Nova Scotian's will wish us well because that is where they are coming. The people of Italy have fully endorsed Newfoundland as the area that Cabot saw his landfall and I can absolutely assure you that 1997 belongs to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and to no one else. We are willing to share as an international event taking place in this Province but it belongs to our Province and there is no one who will question that. I have a feeling that the Premier-elect Savage in Nova Scotia will probably agree with us because I have been informed that CBC has declared a Liberal government in Nova Scotia. I am sure John Savage will agree with our philosophy and the historical information available, that this is where Cabot came first.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am going to try to keep my answers brief.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I must for the record remind you and the members of our Committee of a comment that I was asked to officially make as chairman of this Committee we were on recess, that the hockey game begins at 9:30 p.m. So, if you could keep your answers brief and the members of the Committee would keep their questions brief, I do not think that we will have any problems with that.

Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Well first of all, on the last comments here good luck in the pursuit of that ferry because I am sure, like you said, that the opposition has also agreed with that part of it. I have always thought that too and I wish you good luck with that. I will be supporting you in any way I can with that part.

MR. WALSH: Thank you.

MR. SHELLEY: I just want to bring up this question very quickly on the outfitters camps. As I am sure you will agree, I believe Newfoundland and Labrador, especially Labrador, about which we do not talk a lot, to be the wildlife paradise, that it is. It certainly is in my area, from rabbits to good trouting, to salmon, to moose and caribou and everything else, so this question about outfitters camps, which I do not know a lot about, I must admit, and I am just wondering what the future holds as far as regulations and licensing these camps.

I know there are some people now in pursuit of licenses and for a lot of strange reasons, or, things are not quite clear - I am going to be investigating them of course, but on behalf of some constituents, and for example, in the whole area of my district there is not one and I can name some other places I think on the West Coast and up along the Northern Peninsula. I just want to see an outfitters camp for licensing -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, for moose and that type of thing -

AN HON. MEMBER: But not for salmon?

MR. SHELLEY: No, for moose, caribou and hunting different things like that but basically licences for wildlife and setting up these camps, so I am wondering what the future holds as far as regulations for these types of licenses and, where do we see it going in the near future?

MR. WALSH: Very basic, let me say first and foremost that the outfitters industry in this Province to date, is worth $11 million a year to us. We believe that managed properly, over the next five years we can move that into the $17 million, $18 million range very comfortably and very easily, by working closely with the outfitters association and others, but in terms of what we are doing in terms of licensing for those particular groups, we have a couple of problems.

One, back in '87 and '88, - and I might be wrong on the numbers - a number of people who wanted to get into the big game outfitting industry were unable to because the allocations for big game just were not there, and so they are allowed into the industry with bear licences. What the department has tried to do, probably since '88, is to address those who were permitted to come into the industry with bear licences, allowing them to upgrade themselves, while at the same time trying to deal with the big game hunters who are already in the industry, an opportunity to upgrade themselves; so what you have had is: we have had new entrances I guess, really through the back door, they could not get the licences one way, they went out and made large investments with respect to trying to make it on bear licences alone, have not been able to, and so we have been trying to integrate them over the last number of years. I think this past year we may have brought in one of the last fellows who started off with a bear licence in the mid-80s and we have been able to move them forward.

The other things that we are trying to do, is that we want to be sure that of the 10 per cent allocation that is available to non-residents, we want to be sure that the camps involved are actually meeting their own quotas. It is no good to have licences if you cannot sell them, and I am really proud to say that we virtually sold out this year in this Province with the licences that we had available. We had yet another problem this year that outfitters themselves are finding it somewhat difficult to deal with, and that is, that based on the best information that the wildlife department could give government, and I want to say again that I respect the wildlife branch because if they are going to err, they always err on the side of management, on the side of the conservation, and I think that is very important rather than err the other way.

This year, I think we had to eliminate some 600 licences out of the total available and that automatically meant that sixty-odd licences had to come out of the big game allocation for non-residents; we have had to do that this year and so it has made it a little more difficult, one, for people to expand their existing camps and two, it has made it virtually impossible for someone new, trying to get into the business. When we have had to lift out licences, it is very difficult then to turn around and say to a new operator, come on in; it is very unfair to them, because in some cases they will have to invest a couple hundred thousand dollars or more, and five years from now they may lose everything they own or two years from now they may lose everything they own because we do not have the licences to give to them, so we are trying to, one, strengthen the industry that we have and at the same time allow it to expand with existing operators.

MR. SHELLEY: Do you allocate licenses with respect to regions, is that one of the criteria?

MR. WALSH: As much as possible, based on the information that we have available. We have some areas where we have more game that we know literally what to do with. We have other areas where, based on the information that's come back at the end of the season, we've had even greater difficulties.

MR. SHELLEY: So is that the basis for allocating these licences, the game in the area? Am I correct in saying that?

MR. WALSH: Population counts based on the statistics. You see, every big game hunter, or every camp, has to report its success ratios for last year back to the department. If you had twenty licences last year and you sold twenty licences, but you only had a kill of ten, that tells us that something was either wrong for you as a camp operator, but then we may have had out 100 or more resident licences and we found that their kill ratio was very low. So we've got to make judgement calls based on the results that are coming back to us.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. I'm not sure about the details. Maybe I'll try to use a specific example. Again I have to use my own district, but I'm not trying to do this as a district thing but just relative to the Province, okay? In my district out there there's not one outfitters camp. I think two people have applied for them, or three maybe, I'm not sure. The moose population on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I don't think there's any problem with moose, as far as I can tell. I'm new at this moose licence thing, by the way. I haven't had one yet, but I have applied.

Anyway, I just find it very strange that on a peninsula like that, I'm just wondering if there are other places around, why these people who have applied for outfitters' licences are not getting them. I'm really curious about that. Of course I'm going to try to find out because I don't know the details. I'm ignorant about how outfitters camps work. I'm really going to be pursuing that. I'm wondering where else in the Province is it happening, and why these allocations are - it seems like in one region there's two or three, and in a region like mine there are none.

MR. WALSH: I'll touch on the answer a little bit and I'll defer to Jim to help me out with it. One of the biggest problems we have is that if there's a high resident demand in a given area we always try to ensure that camps themselves are not operating where residents tend to hunt, side by side. We tend to try to isolate one from the other. In an area where there's a very high resident demand, and accessibility is so easy for residents from around the Province in a lot of cases, we try to eliminate that in terms of suggesting to someone to put a camp in there. Because we have found historically, and people in the industry will tell you, that it's very difficult to operate a camp when there is a high resident demand for a given area. In case I'm a little off track, Jim Hancock might explain this.

MR. HANCOCK: No, I really can't elaborate too much on what the minister said, but these are the main factors. It's the accessibility of the areas and the demand for licences by the local residents, and also of course the quality of the camp, are some of the primary factors that are taken into consideration during the allocation. We are now at a stage too where there just are only enough licences to give to the camps that are currently in existence.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Jim. Basically, I guess, what I'm saying is that the high resident demand in your own area pretty well precludes an opportunity for a camp to operate in that area. That's a dilemma that we're facing.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, first of all, let me say to the minister that the Members for St. George's and Baie Verte - White Bay anticipated the question that I was about to ask him, that is, on the transportation issue across the Gulf. Let me say to him again that the amount of progress that seems to have been made on this in the last four years since I took an involuntary leave of absence from the Legislature is amazing. I can remember from 1982 to 1987, 1988, when the then-Member for LaPoile, Mr. Neary, and myself, and a number of other people in the Liberal Party, if I can use that word, were pushing for this concept that wherever you live in this country it should cost you no more to travel by water than it should by the same distance by highway.

It's amazing to see the amount of progress that has been made. It is obviously the kind of Liberal move that will, I think, and as I have said for years, you can spend all the money you want on facilities in this Province but unless you get that transportation concept in place you are talking about, then you will never have the type of tourist industry in the Province that you should have. I believe that is correct, but I also believe it is correct with regard to the cost of living as well, and certainly in the area of tourism. I want to congratulate the minister on pushing for that. Let me say that in 1982 the leader of the Liberal Party in New Brunswick at the time one Ray Frenette, the leader of the Liberal Party in Nova Scotia was Sandy Cameron, and the leader of the Liberal Party in Prince Edward Island was Joe Ghiz, and the leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland was an interim leader at that time by the name of Steve Neary, and we came to a consensus in Atlantic Canada as a Liberal Party at that time that indeed that would be a concept that we would push the federal government for, so it is not something that is new.

Now, as he says, with the practical annihilation of the other crowd this evening there is now a new Liberal government in Nova Scotia so there should be no reason, because remember most of those people have some interest in this concept as well, but there should be no reason why you cannot put a great amount of pressure on the federal government, which will also probably be Liberal in another little while, there should be no reason why we should not get this concept in place.

I want to congratulate him on his commitment to it and I say to him, yes, the Opposition in this Province should obviously jump on his bandwagon, as I understand they have, and see that they, too, get onside with this concept. It can do probably more for Newfoundland than the Hibernia project itself. I believe that is possible. I want to ask him if there have been any studies done at all to show what the effect of that type of concept would have on Newfoundland, on the economic well being of Newfoundland? I will leave that question and try to get another couple of small questions I have here in as well. I want also to ask him, I suppose on behalf of the Chairman, as we happen to reside in neighbouring districts and where tonight he is probably not in a position to ask a question of the minister, I ask the minister if he or one of his officials could give us the status of the jointly funded Beothuck Interpretation Centre at Boyd's Cove? Those are the two questions, and I would like for him to comment on whether there have been any studies done to show what the effects would be, and to tell him that we are all onside on the transportation issue.

MR. WALSH: You are absolutely right, that the concept is not new. The determination is no different than it was years ago but the thrust is a little different simply because we are coming at it from a government policy point of view and it is high on our priority list. I will say to you that it is the major stumbling block in what we call the rubber tire traffic in this Province. When I mentioned earlier that we were a $440 million industry I say to you if you want to see us double that and double it very quickly as opposed to over the next ten years you cut those rates in half and I tell you we will fill this Province with tourists because they want to come and we will probably need another brand new Joseph and Clara to meet the needs. The irony in this whole concept of lowering the rates and trying to get them down to a point where we can bring people to this Province comes from the fact that Marine Atlantic actually gave back to the federal government about $7 million in subsidies that were allocated to them. They said, take them back, but if they had kept even $2 million of that we probably could have taken one third, or at least 20 per cent, off the cost of a ticket to come to this Province.

MR. TULK: I understand that to be the case.

MR. WALSH: And if they had to keep $4 million of it we probably could have came God awful close to cutting the cost of getting to this Province in half. Instead of doing that, we saw them increasing the rates in Newfoundland while at the same time decreasing the rates, because they wanted to increase their market share from Nova Scotia to the United States. That was absolutely wrong, it was unforgivable, and it was really saying that -

MR. TULK: It's economically stupid too.

MR. WALSH: - it was also saying that: we should not be promoting ourselves as Canada, as Canadians. We should make it easier for Americans, who had an alternate way of getting to Nova Scotia. They can come by road. This is the Province they should have offered the discounts in, and they probably would have made enough money still to offset the Nova Scotia losses that they had. But to have given back $7 million when they could have probably doubled the amount of people coming into our Province to me is unforgivable.

MR. TULK: Economically stupid.

MR. WALSH: Now, Boyd's Cove. Boyd's Cove is a program and a project that we are working very closely with our federal counterparts on. At this point in time both parties in the federal-provincial agreement are very committed to Boyd's Cove. In terms of how far we've come, we're certainly well into the planning, in terms of our discussions with our counterparts, the federal government, and I'm confident that the federal government and ourselves will be in a position to make some announcements with respect to Boyd's Cove in the very near future.

MR. TULK: That makes the chairman smile.

MR. WALSH: It is something that we believe in jointly. Not just us, but the federal government. Now the logistics have to be worked out, the amount of funds - whether it's $1 million, or $1.1 million, $1.2 million, that we may have to identify for this project. We believe that's the amount of money we'll probably need for the project. That part has been identified. We now have to work with our federal counterparts to finalize an agreement that hopefully will be announced... well, I suppose as soon as we're able to put the finishing touches to it. We're not to that stage yet, but we're getting closer every day. I have tremendous faith that the federal government will continue to see the significance in Boyd's Cove as we do as a province and as we do in this department.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: I'd like to think that they will stay on side with us and we'll be able to see that project come to fruition.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Mr. Minister, I wanted to go to the other extreme, I suppose. I was wondering if indeed your department has any input with regard to theatrical groups in the Province. If so, I was wondering what the status of these groups are. Whether they're buoyant, or whether they're stable, or having a hard time, floundering, and if so -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WHELAN: - what's being done with regard to funding.

MR. WALSH: Let me say first and foremost that with respect to theatrical groups we're very much involved in trying to sustain them and also to maintain their economic viability. All across Canada, and also in the United States itself, if there's anything that has been affected most it is the theatre, simply because of the economic downturn. The disposable income is just not there for that extra special night out or to be able to do it. Also, the costs of mounting productions have gone up dramatically and one has not caught up with the other yet. So the cost of the tickets are still up here while the economy has taken a downturn.

So the theatre is being affected all throughout North America. There are winners such as The Phantom and Les Misérables and Miss Saigon. They're the ones that we hear most about because they're the winners today. But the Off-Broadway, or the smaller productions, are being affected dramatically.

Here in this Province last September we signed a $5 million cultural industries agreement - I did, with Mr. Crosbie on behalf of the federal government - and that has been put in place to help theatrical groups, and others, with their marketing and development of their discipline and what they are trying to do. To promote themselves, to in some cases purchase equipment that's needed in order for them to sustain themselves and to allow their particular areas to grow. So, those are the kinds of things that we are doing. We are very cognizant of the problems that they are having and we realize that.

In these tough Budget times or these tough economic times, we have done everything in our power to make sure that those who desperately needed the help were able to get the help required. We are there backing them every step of the way in everything that we can do. Some of the major productions of the Arts and Culture Centres last year - one production cost us in excess of $100,000 to mount and I believe our revenues may have been around $40,000, somewhere in that neighbourhood, it may have been around $40,000 generated through ticket sales. That is the kind of commitment that we have shown, as a Province, to various productions that we have seen on our own stages. So, yes, we are there to support wherever we can, bearing in mind that we are in some tough economic times ourselves.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the subject of tourist chalet's, could the minister or someone on his staff, give me a status report on what new is going to happen with the tourist chalet in Deer Lake and if there is anything new pertaining to a tourist chalet for the Hampden intersection with White Bay?

MR. WALSH: With respect to Deer Lake, we have carried over a commitment from last year to complete a display and exhibit at Deer Lake that will, in particular, promote the region and the Northern Peninsula as well. I think total cost is around $160,000. Now, that project probably could have gone ahead last year but the proposals that came forward we felt did not really depict what we are trying to do in the Deer Lake chalet. So, for that reason that work is going ahead now. So, we are very committed to finishing the job that we started at the Deer Lake chalet and we intend to see that work carried out to promote that region and promote the Viking Trail in particular. So, we are absolutely going to do that.

Now, with respect to the one at Hampden, I have to say to you I am just - is that one of ours or is that -

MR. WOODFORD: No, there is neither one there but there is some talk of whether it is going to go through the provincial department or through Community Futures or some other organization. I think the liberal candidate there had a lot to say about it in the election. So, I am just wondering if there is any truth to it or not?

MR. WALSH: - and he did and I am sure that whatever he said was absolutely accurate except for one thing that -

MR. WOODFORD: - except there was no money.

MR. WALSH: - that in our belief of the need, it is certainly there but I tend to think that you are correct, that the Community Futures people in that area are looking to do some work with respect to that. As a matter of fact, this Friday night I am meeting with the Humber Valley Regional Tourism or Bay of Islands or Humber Valley Regional Tourism Association -

MR. WOODFORD: This Friday night you have an opening there in Corner Brook at The Mamateek Inn.

MR. WALSH: Yes and I am going over to participate in that and take advantage of that opening to meet with them to talk about their concerns and their needs that were brought to my attention over the last couple of months. I am hoping to do that Friday night with them but in terms of can we do it this year? I have to say to you, no, it is not on our priority list for this year. We are more concerned with upgrading and meeting the needs that we have in existing chalets. Is it there for future years? I would like to see it there myself.

I should say that our priority has changed somewhat in terms of what we believe is the next important chalet to us and that is in Labrador West. We see that as the last gateway into Newfoundland because of the Trans-Labrador Highway. It is our belief that the number of tourists who will now come out of Central Canada in particular and the Central United States will come up through the Trans-Labrador Highway, make the loop around into Goose Bay and then from there come across, be it to Lewisporte and then make the decision on how to exit the Province, be it through Argentia or be it through Port aux Basques, but we have identified Labrador West as the real key component in the finishing the entrances into Newfoundland. We already have Argentia, Port aux Basques, Labrador West is on the priority list as our next project.

MR. WOODFORD: Going back to the questions on outfitters, Mr. Minister, can you clarify something for me? I have been approached on several occasions about - whether there is any truth to it or not, I do not know, maybe it is just hearsay or sour grapes, especially pertaining to people trying to get into the industry - saying that some outfitters in the Province do not take up their allocation, there are some grave discrepancies there pertaining to outfitters not utilizing their allocations. Is that a fact or not?

MR. WALSH: Absolutely. For the last number of years, outfitters have not been utilizing their allocation and to that, two years ago, the then minister responsible for tourism told the outfitters at their annual convention, that in 1993, you either use them or lose them. This was the year that if they did not use them, we served notice that they now have the potential of losing them, and in some cases we actually cut back the allocations that some of them had, but again, to try to maintain strength in the industry, we have re-allocated some of those licences for this year only, to existing operators who were already sold out, so if somebody had twenty licences and only sold ten, we may have cut them back by five, to still allow them some growth and we have taken that five and probably moved them over to someone who had twenty, had twenty sold, and allowing them to sell five more this year, and so we have managed ourselves the re-allocation.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, but you are still living within the 10 per cent and the freeze is still on, on any new allocations?

MR. WALSH: Absolutely. We have no choice but to live within the allocation, and I do not know if I have nerve enough to approach government this year - I may want to ask for a larger allocation for non-residents, but you know and I know what that will do within the Province, and I do not know if we are ready at this point in time or if the industry is solidified enough so that we really need to ask for a greater amount; but the time is coming when some minister will have to approach his or her government to say, we now need more, but I think we have an opportunity to see some flushing out of those who have licences and have really given up on the industry and we need to see those re-allocations first, but there is a time coming in the next five or ten years, where, someone is going to have to ask for more licences for non-residents and that would be an interesting debate when it comes.

MR. WOODFORD: There has been some talk and I think your department is well aware of it, in fact, you can also answer this question too. Is there a count being done on the caribou herd on the Hampden Downs area, Birchy Lake area now, and moose population in that area, especially pertaining to the - I suppose it is the possible location of a firing range in the upper Indian River area?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: An area that - because, remember that one was supposed to go into Sheffield Lake, a couple years ago.

MR. WALSH: It is a little more technical than I can pull out of my own head. I will defer to our director, Jim Hancock, if it is fine with you.

MR. WOODFORD: I understand, Jim, that they did a winter count on the caribou, and found very few moose; they have just finished another count now, especially on the moose and now they are going back to do another one within a month in that particular area, mainly because of the possible establishment of a firing range, some sort of a firing range in the upper Indian River area.

MR. HANCOCK: There are some surveys ongoing in that particular area as part of the proposal that you talked about. We do not have all the results in as yet, but we have no reason to believe that there has been any major changes in populations of moose or caribou in that particular area.

MR. WOODFORD: You have no reason to think that there's no major increase in caribou?

MR. HANCOCK: In the moose population, and in the caribou, in that specific location. Overall, caribou have increased in some of the herds, but in that particular location we haven't got all the surveys finished yet.

MR. WOODFORD: Especially pertaining to the Hampden Downs area.

MR. HANCOCK: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: I was told that - and not only that, but I've seen it myself, that the Hampden Downs area over the last five years have increased, as far as I'm concerned, looking at it visually, dramatically, and the time is coming very soon for a possible allocation of licences for that area.

MR. HANCOCK: You're right, they may indeed have increased. As I say, caribou herds throughout the whole Island have increased but in that particular area, specifically on the Hampden Downs, because that particular herd, of course, interacts with a lot of the other herds from the Topsails and from the Buchans herd and also from the Humber River herd, we call it, up there at the base of the Northern Peninsula. So how discreet that particular herd is, and whether that herd has increased in itself, or as a function of some of the adjoining herds, these are the kinds of questions that we really haven't completely answered as yet.

MR. WOODFORD: My question is: is that count being done specifically to try to entertain this proposal? I've been told that this proposal for the area, this range, that the count has been done specifically to try to see what's going on in that area to see if that proposal can be accommodated. Is that true?

MR. HANCOCK: I suspect that the proposal you're talking about is probably being done as part of the assessment. It's certainly not one that we are doing purely from a management perspective ourselves. It would be done in relation to the assessment of the proposal, yes. Any of the environmental assessments that require additional information gathered will be done in exactly the same way. We act in an advisory role in those particular ones.

MR. WOODFORD: No, because as you can recall there was quite a bit of controversy. At that time they were going to put it in the Sheffield Lake area, and because of all the cabin owners they sort of dropped it. But now there's some speculation that it's going to move on the other side, to the head of the Indian River system there, so....

MR. HANCOCK: Yes, there was tremendous opposition I think from some of the cabin owners at the first site that was selected.

MR. WOODFORD: Okay. My time is up, is it? Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll go back to the members of our Committee. We'll be back to Mr. Woodford in a minute. Any questions from any of our Committee members?

Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: I thought the Member for Fogo wanted something to say. No? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair has recognized Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, in your budget report too it also says that grant funding to third party organizations has been reduced by $214,000. Could you give us some more specifics on that particular amount?

MR. WALSH: We can give you the specifics, and I'll certainly do that, but let me tell you how we tried to arrive at who we could maintain funding for, who we could increase it for, and who in the end would probably, I suppose for want of another term, receive less.

We were given a block of funds and told that this is all that you have in order to allocate for that particular program. In meeting with our officials the criteria that I laid out were very simple. One, those that had absolutely nowhere else to go to find their funds should be protected at all costs. Two, those that were in the 50 to 60 per cent range where they couldn't find additional funds, we should look at doing what we can to protect those as well. Those that had an opportunity to access other funds in order to sustain themselves, they were the ones that we would probably look at and say: that's where our cuts may come from.

To give you an example of that, I guess the best one would be the annual contribution to the Atlantic Canada tourism program. It was $35,000. There is nowhere else for those funds to come from. We had to sustain that funding and we did. Another good example is the Art Procurement Program in the Province, it is $100,000 that has been there for a long time - any amount of those funds eliminated - there was nowhere else for them to go, so therefore we look to protect that. The John Cabot Corporation, which we had set up, whatever we put into it was met by ACOA. They needed $200,000 just to maintain their basic operations, we made sure that they received that. Another good example is the Signal Hill Tattoo, the $30,000 from us went directly into salaries for the students for this year. There was no other source for the funds and they needed our $30,000 in order to access other funds. So, we had to leave that there.

The local information chalet's throughout the island for example, there are twelve of them who receive $5,000 a year annual grant from us. We all know it is not enough but there is nowhere else for them to go, so we maintain that one. Now, there were some that went the other way. I can either deal with all of them or deal with the ones that we have had to see some cuts to. For example, the Stephenville Festival, which is one that we have heard most of in the last little while, it went from a little better than $35,000 to $17,000 and change, we saw a cut there. Grants to festivals throughout Newfoundland, normally there would have been $150,000 allocated for that, it is down to $75,000. Yet, they can access other funds as well and that is one of the reasons we saw a change there.

We looked at, in terms of reductions, the local information chalet's, as I said, remain the same. The Signal Hill Tattoo remains the same. The Marble Mountain Development Corporation were hoping to get $175,000 from us this year, cut back to $135,000. We all know how important that particular item is to the entire West Coast in trying to develop our Winter tourism. We were fortunate when it came to the LSPU Hall, a very modest increase. They received $10,000 the year before in direct grants and we managed to get them up to $12,700. I will say to you that close to year end last year we had a few dollars left in that pot and because they were getting ready to literally shut down the building because they could not afford to maintain heat, light and insurances, we managed to get them, I think it was some $5,000 close to year end last year but in actual grants this year, they are up a little.

Newfoundland quarterly went from $17,000 - they were looking for $20,000, they were maintained at the same level as the year before. Them Day magazine, maintained at the same level. Tickle Ace magazine saw a decrease from $10,000 down to $5,000. The Newfoundland and Labrador assistance to artists representing the Province, outside the Province, we saw a complete reduction in that particular year's budget, it went from $24,000 down to zero. The Publisher's Assistance Program which enable people to - we paid that fund out. That was cut in half from $120,000 down to $60,000. The local community museums and the heritage foundations, we maintained their budget at the $93,000 level that they had the year before. We went on and we had another one that covered qualified archaeologists, the budget request was $22,000 and that was for archaeologists working on various sites which are protected under Historic Resources Act, that was cut in half to $11,000. Other ones are much smaller ones, less than $1,000 or $2,000 and there was another one there the Protected Areas Association of Newfoundland received $22,000 the year before, but that was part of an agreement that we had under a three year program, and that was the last year of a three year program. That one was affected as well.

That pretty well covers the ones that were affected in our department. There was another one, $6,000 reduced to $4,500, down by $1,500, and that was the Cooperative Wildlife Health and Laboratory for Canada. That was reduced somewhat, but again it was part of an ongoing program that we had. Those were basically the ones that we saw cuts in, and also the ones that I'm very pleased to say that during these tough economic times we were able to maintain. We've maintained more than we affected, and I think that says and augurs well for the officials in the department who put up some very strong arguments why we should protect these people.

MR. WOODFORD: Your $200,000 that has been provided for the rehabilitation of provincial parks. Where will that be spent and when?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: That's a good question. Those are brand new funds and that's a brand new $200,000 that's gone in. I may have to turn to Don Hustins for some specifics. We're expecting some pretty strong recommendations to come from the task force on parks. We felt there was going to be an allocation of funds required and so we've set aside $200,000. Don may be able to help us a little more, if I could defer to him.

MR. HUSTINS: Yes, the minister has indicated we haven't allocated those funds at this point in time. We're primarily looking at the final results of the task force which we're hoping to have mid- or late-June and allocate the funds accordingly afterwards, based on specific parks that the task force is looking at that might be sort of the keystone areas to promote as a tourism recreation perspective throughout the Province. It could be spent in those areas or could go into general maintenance and improvements and upgrading for a whole variety of the parks. That decision will be made within a month.

MR. WOODFORD: After the task force presents its report.

MR. HUSTINS: About the same time the task force is presenting the report. Hopefully it wouldn't be delayed because we'd like to get things under way this summer and the early part of the fall.

MR. WALSH: Separate from that $200,000 that Don was referring to, I might point out that's provincial funds. Under the Canada-Newfoundland Cooperation Agreement on Tourism and Historic Resources Cape St. Mary's this year will see pretty well a million dollars, $990,000, being spent in this fiscal year. That's for the road, the work being done on the interpretation centre - which overall is approximately $1 million budget, we'll see $100,000 spent this year on doing preliminary planning. Fitzgerald's Pond, Fitzgerald's Provincial Park will see -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: It's the Argentia access. Will see approximately $1 million being spent on that one. Again, that falls in the category of trying to meet the needs and services of tourists as they come in through one of the gateways, and Argentia is one of the gateways. Those are funds allocated this year under the federal-provincial agreement. Barachois Provincial Park will see some $24,000 to complete it, and we're also seeing approximately another $62,000 to complete the Dildo Park as well.

Staying with that, the Witless Bay Seabird Sanctuary Study under the agreement will see some $50,000 being spent this year as well. That's under way as we speak. So above and beyond the $200,000 that we've allocated here, under the subsidiary agreement with Ottawa we've approximately $2.5 million being spent above and beyond in our parks this year. Very specific parks, but being spent this year.

MR. WOODFORD: I suppose most of that money is being spent in the federal members' district, I suppose the $200,000 won't be spent in the provincial members' district, will it?

But, Mr. Minister, as you can recall you chaired the resource legislative review committee and your colleague, Mr. Penney, I think, vice-chaired that particular committee, when it ended up I think as Bill 38 or was it Bill 37?

MR. WALSH: Which one?

MR. WOODFORD: The one on Crown Lands, the Crown Lands Act.

MR. WALSH: Oh yes. I remember that bill.

MR. WOODFORD: You should remember that one, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I believe it was Mr. Gover who chaired the committee.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, so it was, yes.

I was vice-chair and you were on the committee, and Mr. Penney, and Mr. Warren.

MR. WALSH: In actual fact, I was a concerned MHA, who showed up that night because I had seen some potential in that bill that it concerned me and as with any MHA, these committee meetings are open.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Anyway, Mr. Minister, as you can recall, when it did pass it passed with some amendments to that particular section which I think was 7 (2) and the main section we were concerned about, we were all concerned about it at that time, regardless of the politics, was the section whereby, under the old Crown Lands Act, anyone within thirty-three feet of the waterway, was virtually Crown and you could not have access to it - well you did not own it, you could not own it. Have you run into any problems or any members of your staff run into any problems lately pertaining to that particular piece of legislation?

MR. WALSH: I have to say to you, that as minister, I have not received any correspondence with respect to it since the actual issue was dealt with. Now I cannot speak for what Environment and Lands may have seen, but I have not received anything and I will look for a nod or a shake from the officials, no? We have not had anything that we can remember dealing with it, no. I was very adamant about it at that point in time that people of this Province had, for want of another term, the birthright, to be able to circle any pond or any river in this Province. The right to walk up and down either side of a river or either side of a pond and the right, whether or not they can in terms of needing a licence being able to fish, wherever they wish as long as they met regulations in terms of licences and so on. I still adhere very strongly to that principle and I am very pleased to say, so does the government.

MR. WOODFORD: So far as you know now, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council has the right now to give it under the new section of the act, so, you being a minister now, can be very, I suppose, vigilant when it comes -

MR. WALSH: I never ever interpreted that section of the act as giving the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to actually grant the right. If my memory serves me correctly, and again, I am speaking in terms of another department. There were some very specific cases. If there was going to be a hydro development we may have to interrupt your right to be able to walk around for safety reasons or something like that. If there was a paper mill being created on the bank of a bay or a large water area that we might have to grant you a right to walk around, but certainly not through the mill property, and if my memory serves me correctly, those were the kinds of items that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council could deal with, that was my interpretation of it but it has been some time ago and I have not read it lately, but that to me was the interpretation of the act as I remember it, that it was for very specific reasons.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I am not going to get into an argument over it but I just want to make a comment that, that was always there anyway, always understood but it is just that they added more possibilities -

MR. WALSH: I do not remember it.

MR. WOODFORD: - there are more possibilities now of something happening than it was before and we will leave it at that.

MR. WALSH: That is a good question for the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, most of your votes in Tourism and Promotion, most of your salary votes in 2.2.01, 2.2.02, 2.2.03 - no, 2.2.03 is separate. The first two, 2.2.01 and 2.2.02, have increased. "Appropriations provide for planning and research activities..." and so on. There are a couple of others in the Professional Services under Planning and Evaluation, $65,000 this year. Is there anything specific being done there?

MR. WALSH: I have to say that, and I probably should have mentioned this in my opening statement, and neglected to. One of the biggest problems that we have specifically in dealing with numbers that are allocated is bear in mind that the department officially was formed July 17 of last year, well into the fiscal year. Some of the allocations of funds remained in terms of the other departments and came over. In some cases, for example the minister and the deputy minister's salaries were established last year, but I think mine was paid out of the Department of Finance where the ministries were united. So what you're seeing this year in some cases, and that's one of them, you're seeing a budget for the entire year.

So some of the differences that you see reflect the fact that the department was set up virtually midstream, and that in actual fact the numbers for this year are not dramatically different from the previous year, if you rolled the new department all the way back to April 1. Some of the changes, unless you wanted to be specific, would reflect that. Salaries in particular would reflect that. If my memory serves me correctly, the assistant deputy minister for Culture remained with Municipal Affairs for a good part of the year until they were totally rolled over to it. At least the funding allocations.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: ADM for Tourism stayed with Development. The ADM for Wildlife and Parks remained with Environment and Lands. In some of those cases the numbers are somewhat blurred because of that, and also the funding mechanisms under which they operated.

MR. WOODFORD: Under Grants and Subsidies, 2.2.01.10, went from the budget revised to $102,000 and now gone to $112,000 for this year. Where most of the grants and subsidies have been cut for this particular year why would that one increase, and what is it for? 2.2.01.10.

MR. WALSH: I'm pretty sure that's an additional $10,000 that went to the John Cabot Corporation, and I think it was part of the contribution towards the study. If you'll give me a quick second.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, okay.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: The $100,000 for John Cabot, and there was $12,000 in there for the Research Institute on Tourism for Canada. There was a $12,000 contribution there.

MR. WOODFORD: 2.2.02.10. Budget $850,000 last year, went revised to $1.1 million, back down to $800,000 this year. Does that have something to do with the federal-provincial agreement, on Grants and Subsidies?

MR. WALSH: That's a combination. That's mostly federal-provincial subsidiary agreement money and the allocation this year is that amount of funds to us. That also reflects a 10 per cent reduction that the federal government imposed on all federal-provincial agreements across Canada, and ours were no different. So what we thought might have been in that higher amount when they rolled out what was coming, that's what pretty well took it from that amount down to the $800,000. I know 10 per cent on $1 million is not $200,000, but by the time the whole process washed out that's reflective of the federal funds committed for this year.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I can understand if it was 10 per cent came off of that. My first question was: where it was budgeted $850,000 and then went to $1.1 million.

MR. WALSH: Also the timing of the payments somewhat changed with the calendar as well. The other thing to remember too is that when you're looking at various projects some of them are in the works, some of them are new, starting up, so you may have one that is winding down in its final phase. Instead of having $100,000 left to spend they might have only $50,000 left to spend on it. Yet, we had a new one come in that might have been less than the original one. So, there are a number of projects in there that could affect the dollar value itself.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 2.3.02.06, would that $160,000 be the Deer Lake facility in particular?

MR. WALSH: I am sorry?

MR. WOODFORD: 2.3.02.06, under Tourism and Promotion?

MR. WALSH: Yes?

MR. WOODFORD: Would that be the Deer Lake facility?

MR. WALSH: Yes, $160,000 for Deer Lake. I regret that I could not put more in there because that centre, as I said, is really, if you want to talk about it in terms of gateways, it is the gateway to the Northern Peninsula. The wealth of history that we have on that Viking Trail up through the Northern Peninsula and across into the Straits of Labrador with Red Bay and so many other facilities that we have over there, I regret it could not be a (inaudible) but that entire $160,000 is for Deer Lake.

MR. WOODFORD: We are some lucky to be living in a district where it is the crossroads.

MR. WALSH: That is right.

MR. WOODFORD: $112,000 of that is federal money by the way. I still have to give the department credit for doing something with that because that is a nice centre that is there now. It is first class and like he said, it is the crossroads to the area east and west of the Northern Peninsula where two of the heritage sites are located. So, it is a very, very busy spot.

MR. WALSH: I have to say to you that one of the other things that we are doing this year and has not been done in the past is that we are setting up display areas in virtually - well, we are beginning to do a program whereby in virtually all of our chalet's we will be promoting our craft and cottage industries. They will not necessarily be selling the items but we will be able to tell you if you are in Deer Lake where you can buy crafts from that region in that immediate area. Again, the reason to keep people in the area longer. I do not think we should ever underestimate the importance of that interpretation centre for us in this Province because of the wealth of history that is on the Northern Peninsula and the wealth of knowledge, information and history that is on the Labrador Strait side.

Also, you have to bear in mind that if there was anywhere in this Province over the last ten years that we have seen tremendous, not only growth, but willingness to upgrade ones facilities in order to accommodate the new tourism boom that that peninsula and Labrador Straits are seeing, you will find that that particular region is probably one of the finest in the Province now. They have come a long, long way. I think that centre reflects more than anything the commitment of the entrepreneur's of an entire coast in terms of what they are trying to do to meet the tourism needs in our Province. They are to be commended and this is our way of saying to them, we know what you are doing, it is a good job and we are going to try to send more people your way.

MR. WOODFORD: You are going to see Friday night that they have a great job done on that tourism plan as well.

MR. WALSH: I am looking forward to it.

Seven years ago I made a little speech as a member of Hospitality Newfoundland on the West Coast, I was very serious when I said it then, I am not sure I will see the fruits of it now but I said at that point in time that one of the fears I had, is that the Northern Peninsula was so well organized and so determined to make the Viking Trail a reality that many other peninsulas in Newfoundland would not see the same growth. The big fear that I had is that if they did not catch up and if they did not promote themselves with themed touring routes as we talked about here tonight, that many tourists would come in through Port aux Basques, turn left at Deer Lake and never see the rest of the Province. That is one of the reasons we are putting such tremendous emphasis on the development of other peninsula's exactly along the lines of what is happening on the Viking Trail.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 2.3.03, Travel Generators, mainly Marble Mountain, where there are no grants and subsidies this year pertaining to the ongoing development of the Marble Mountain ski area, does that mean that everything will come to a halt this year on Marble Mountain or will they spend monies that have already been allocated by ACOA or by other people?

MR. WALSH: The corporation will continue to spend any funds that have been allocated. The major impact of last year was the number of projects that were undertaken last year and expended last year. The new seats, for example, for the lift, I think there was $135,000, or something, that was allocated for that. As you know we are now working at the details collectively between ourselves and the federal government, and the corporation, for an organized approach to what we believe is the next step at Marble Mountain and that is the development of a new day lodge. The preliminaries have been done and we have looked at the socio-economic impact that that day lodge can have on that entire West Coast region. That is something we are currently working towards and we are trying to get ourselves in gear now. We have had a number of meetings with senior officials from ACOA and ourselves and we now have to see how we can approach Marble Mountain in that light as well. Marble Mountain is not stopping. It is going to keep moving forward, keep moving forward, and keep moving forward, because it is the key to our Winter development on the West Coast and it is very important to us.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 3.3.02, Historic Sites Agreements, 3.3.02 05 professional services. There is a big increase this year from what was actually spend. I know the Budget last year was $1,300,000 but there was only $258,000 spent. Where would that allocation be spent this year?

MR. WALSH: I will have to pull that one for you. The dramatic increase you see there is a result of over the last couple of years the preliminary homework was being done on a number of projects, and this is the year we start to see those funds moving ahead. The Lord Baltimore site at Ferryland is one of the major ones that you will see this year and there are some other allocations we are looking at as well, but Ferryland will see a major chunk of that money this year.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about Boyd's Cove?

MR. WALSH: Boyd's Cove is in there as a potential for this year as well. These are the ones we are hoping to get off the ground this year. We did not get them off the ground last year and those funds are in there.

MR. WOODFORD: We finally squeezed it out of you.

MR. WALSH: I keep talking about Boyd's Cove, we are going to lose it now.

MR. WOODFORD: I will not say anything else on it.

MR. WALSH: Thank you.

MR. WOODFORD: I will let you alone seeing that you are going to look after the other one.

Under 4.1.01, 03, a big increase in Transportation and Communications for the management and policy direction of the system of Provincial Parks and so on. Would that be some of the $200,000 or would that be another allocation?

MR. WALSH: That is more of a re-allocation and re-organization of the numbers in wildlife to reflect their own strength and in particular, our commitment to the parks.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 4.1.02, Park Operations, 4.1.02, 01, Salaries, down almost $100,000, where would that come from?

MR. WALSH: It is pretty well the same thing. It is a re-allocation of some of our personnel with the restructuring of the new department. In terms of will there be any less personnel in our parks this year in terms of full time people, no, there will not, we may see a few less Summer students this year than we had in the past but no, that is pretty well a re-allocation.

MR. WOODFORD: So there would be no less people?

MR. WALSH: No, when you look at the total allocation for the parks, in actual fact it is up by approximately $200,000 for the year in total, so it is more of a re-allocation and a re-alignment of funds as opposed to a loss of funds.

MR. WOODFORD: I notice under 4.1.08, Park Rehabilitation, you have 4.1.08, 05 and 06, that is the total allocation for this year under the Budget, $200,000, that is what that is all about so you do not have the specifics of that yet, that is just the allocation.

MR. WALSH: We are waiting for the results of the task force. We feel that we are going to need at least that much money and we thought it would be prudent for us to at least budget for some aspects of the task force recommendations.

MR. WOODFORD: Would there be any major changes to 4.2.01, especially as it pertains to the Wildlife Program and the big game license draw? I say that because when I look at Professional Services, it is up almost $40,000; what would you be doing there in that particular case?

MR. WALSH: We have allocated additional funds this year to do a survey of the computer system that we have in place. It has worked for a long time, but now we believe it is an opportunity for us to update it as it desperately needs to be done, and so we have been able to allocate additional funds for that purpose.

MR. WOODFORD: For a draw?

MR. WALSH: There is about $90,000 in total that will be expended in that area.

MR. WOODFORD: I notice that you have in 4.2.05, Wildlife Monitoring. Would that be the same thing, the monitoring of ptarmigan, caribou and other species? Would that all include what I was talking about earlier, pertaining to the Hampden Downs herd and the Birchy Lake herd?

MR. WALSH: That is a combination of a study of caribou and snowmobile disturbance in Gros Morne National Park, Black Bear ecology in the park, TCH moose/vehicle collisions, I can go on and on and on. We have cost-shared agreements that we are working on, most of the ones I have just mentioned are with the Charlottetown Moose Study, they are with the Canada Parks Services and there are about three pages of items that we are working on there, with various groups, including for example, one with the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, to re-examine caribou (inaudible) the upper salmon development area. Those are the kinds of things we are working on. The eastern habitat is another one; the estuary protection, barrens and wetland in the eider management agreement, the caribou survey for Labrador under the federal/provincial agreement and there are a number of other ones there.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 4.2.06, Mr. Minister, under Protection, there are no extra monies for salaries but yet under 4.2.06 03 and 04 there is quite a bit of extra money there. What would they be doing when there is no extra bodies to incur an expense such as that? More helicopter's hired for surveillance?

MR. WALSH: The biggest cost factor there comes on the communications side that we are expending a fair amount of money this year to upgrade once and for all the communications for the wildlife protection people and that is a major commitment -

MR. WOODFORD: I have been after that for years.

MR. WALSH: - a major commitment on our part to those people this year.

MR. WOODFORD: So that we have radios and so on?

MR. WALSH: Yes, that is exactly right.

MR. WOODFORD: That is good, that is excellent.

MR. WALSH: State of the art - we can no longer allow these people that we rely on so heavily to be in a situation where they do not have state of the art communications. The department felt very strongly about it and government agreed with them and -

MR. WOODFORD: It is about time.

MR. WALSH: - it is absolutely needed and has been for a long time. I must say, I give credit to the officials, not only for identifying it yet again this year but pushing hard to make sure that we were able to get the funds. These people desperately needed that.

MR. WOODFORD: Under 4.2.07 - well naturally it is all new monies this year but I meant to ask it earlier, I will ask it here, the river monitoring program that comes under that federal/provincial agreement, I was talking to some federal officials the other day and they said they were going to accept probably two or three proposals, if that, this year and if it works they will probably go back for more monies after to see if that particular program would work. Is anybody in your department in on that particular program?

MR. WALSH: The biggest thing would be the extension of our temporary wildlife people this year, that will be one part of it but our officials are working on an ongoing literal daily basis with the federal government and other departments, as I said, to interpret cross jurisdiction and working together but that is one of the aspects that we see here, an extension of our part-time people as well.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, well that is in the agreement anyway. The extension of your fulltime wildlife officers and your part-time but the river monitoring program itself within the agreement, they say that they are going to accept two or three proposals. I think one is for out around the Gander Bay area from what I have been told.

MR. WALSH: If my memory serves me correctly, I think the salmon association received $60,000 to carry out a program similar to what you are talking about and we are looking for similar, we in terms of the joint management team, are looking for similar proposals from other parts of the Island as well. I think that is what you are referring to.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes but I think this one is with the - is right into the agreement. I will not get into it in detail but they are going to take two proposals out of what they have in -

MR. WALSH: There are about thirteen proposals, I understand, that the federal/provincial management team are looking at and they will ascertain from those which are the best to meet the needs that we are looking for.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes because the complaints I was getting, there are a lot of communities that did not know about this particular call for proposals. For instance, they held meetings in Deer Lake and Corner Brook but did not go down into Jackson's Arm or off the Trans-Canada so to speak and when they did find out about it, it was too late. So, they are going to look at it, accept two or three proposals and then if it works out they are going to increase that next year.

MR. WALSH: We will endeavour to speak to our federal counterparts about what happened there and hopefully, collectively we will be able to change it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: None of the subheads have been carried to this point, so the Chair will entertain any questions on any subhead in this entire section from any member of the Committee.

Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) for 4.2.07, Salmonid Enhancement program. I'm just going to ask the minister to clarify exactly what the program is because I'm not exactly clear on it myself. I think the Member for Humber Valley was talking about the monitoring of rivers, but there are some, how shall I put it, more physical types of projects that are being submitted to the department, other than just monitoring or counting or experimenting or whatever.

For instance, I think of one on the Ragged Harbour River in Notre Dame Bay, which, by the way, used to be one of the better rivers in the Province. There are some physical problems with that river itself that need to be addressed. I'm wondering just what is the nature of this agreement, what type of projects can be covered? Just where would a project like that Ragged Harbour River project, which has to do with a dam that's now falling apart, that was put there in the beginning to help the salmon get up that river, where would that kind of project stand? Perhaps the minister might take a couple or three minutes just to run through the program for us.

MR. WALSH: I believe, myself, that that is the kind of program they would, after our evaluation is carried out, that would certainly fall within the parameters that they're looking for.

One of the problems we have is that this is a $21.4 million salmon enhancement agreement of which our department is responsible for less than 10 per cent. So we're concerned strictly from the conservation side and what we have to do to make sure that the enhancement that's being carried out, that protection is being offered, to make sure that we have that stock five years from now. The Departments of Fisheries, both provincially and federally, are the lead ministries in terms of the remaining part of that $21.4 million or some $19 million. It's those areas that the program would come into its own.

There are seven major programs. In actual fact, stock assessment and evaluation is approximately $2.5 million. Salmon enhancement itself is a total of $9 million by the time -

MR. TULK: Part of that would be under the Department of Fisheries, wouldn't it?

MR. WALSH: Oh yes. I'm referring to, when you talked about the program itself, the salmon enhancement program in total, what they're doing. Habitat restoration and improvement, which is exactly what I believe you're talking about, there's some $2.9 million there. Those are allocations that they're looking at as being needed and different projects. The cooperation enforcement is $2.8 million. Planning and industry development, is $1 million. Administration and evaluation, and that's that two year program plus the total administration, $2.6 million. There's approximately $500,000 there for communications. So in total there's where the $21.4 million is being allocated.

As I said, it's a wonderful agreement between the federal and provincial government, and one that all of us in the Province should be proud of in the fact that both levels of government were able to come to such an understanding and such an agreement to make sure that we do have a salmon industry five years from now. Because we were pretty well at the point of extinction and we are now saying: here is $21.4 million to redevelop recreational fishing in this Province and bring it back to what it was when we were able to catch the large salmon on the Humber River which I remember growing up in the Corner Brook area, and I am sure other people here remember their own stories about different regions of the Province, and to see $21 million allocated for that enhancement again, I think is a major initiative and both levels of government should be given full marks for their commitment to it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I call for a vote on the subheads, are there any other questions from any member of the Committee?

I call the subheads -

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you just call all the heads from 1.1.01 to 4.2.07 inclusive, to pass it, including the minister's salary.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.07, carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism and Culture, total heads, carried.

On motion, estimates of Department of Tourism and Culture, without amendment, carried.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, before we come to a close, allow me to, first and foremost thank my officials who were here tonight to give me the support and the knowledge that they have at their fingertips, to allow us to answer the questions for the Committee as best we could and also, to the chairman and vice-chairman, thank you for your patience on some of the answers, and to the Committee members, I also want to extend a thank you to you folks for your assistance as well.

I will say to all members of the House, those present tonight and others, that, if there are some further questions that you may have or you may wish to have a further qualifying answer on, or an expanded answer, our officials are at your disposal and you can either deal directly with the officials or if you so desire, as with all ministers in this government, my door is open as well and I would be more than happy to sit with you.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The chair would like to officially thank the minister and his officials and to, as well, commend the minister for the grasp that he has of his department. I am not absolutely certain of the length of time that he has been the minister, I think it is approximately a year -

MR. WALSH: Nine months.

MR. CHAIRMAN: - nine months, ten months. I think it is commendable that he has such a grasp of the department. If there was -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

If there were any questions that he was asked during the proceedings with which he was uncomfortable, it certainly did not show. I would like to thank the vice-chairman; I would like to thank the other members of our Committee and to thank Elizabeth Murphy, the Clerk for this evening, and Mr. Oates up there, up in the back looking after Hansard for us and to thank our Page, Diana, as well.

There has been a notice passed to me that I would like to read for you, simply because I think everybody here would be -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: - simply because I believe everybody would be interested in -

MR. WOODFORD: That would be lenient.

MR. CHAIRMAN: - unless I hear some objection from some member of the committee, I will read this to you -

MR. WOODFORD: Read it and read it fast.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The standings in the elections of Nova Scotia, forty elected members of the Liberal Party, nine for the PC Party and three for the NDP Party. I think the -

MR. WOODFORD: Give him the score of the game.

MR. CHAIRMAN: - and the score of the game, at least the most recent one that I have is, no score at the end of the first period.

The next department of government whose budget estimates we will be dealing with will be the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology, on Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. and it is right now listed -

MR. WOODFORD: Monday morning?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Monday morning at 9:00 a. m.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll have to check that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: There may very well be a problem with that one. We may have to reschedule. The other one that I have in here is Monday evening, Mines and Energy, at 7:00. That's here at the House of Assembly. You will be notified at the House of Assembly before that time. I thank you folks.

The Committee adjourned.