May 5, 1992                            SOCIAL SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE - EDUCATION


Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Douglas Oldford, MHA (Trinity North) substitutes for Mr. John Efford, MHA (Port de Grave).

The Committee met in the House of Assembly at 7:00 p.m.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Noel): I am Walter Noel, Chairman of the Committee and with us tonight we have Ms. Lynn Verge, the Member for Humber East who is Vice-Chair; Mr. Bill Ramsay, LaPoile, and Mr. Doug Oldford, who is filling in for Mr. John Efford, who is unable to be with us tonight. I have a letter here somewhere for Mr. Oldford. Mr. Jim Walsh, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island and Mr. Garfield Warren, the Member for Torngat Mountains who is a member of the Committee and Mr. Loyola Hearn, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Mr. Hearn is a guest of the Committee I guess, as a way to describe it. He will be free to ask questions if anybody has any objections, but he would not have a vote if we get into any votes. The other member of the Committee is Jack Harris, who is the Member for St. John's East, who might well appear during the evening.

The way we proceed is with a maximum fifteen minute presentation by the minister, and a similar amount of time to respond by the first speaker for the opposition and then we try to go in ten minute segments including both questions and answers, and we go on as long as there are any questions to be asked.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I do not think.

AN HON. MEMBER: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not think there is anything else to add, is there? We do need to pass the minutes of last night's meeting if you would.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Minister, if you would like to introduce the people with you and let us have the benefit of your views, please.

DR. WARREN: Thank you, Chairperson and committee members, and my friend, Mr. Hearn, who is my member, as I have a residence in his district, so I am pleased to see him here in that capacity.

Chairperson, sitting on the left is Cyril McCormick, deputy minister; on my immediate right is Bob Smart, assistant deputy minister and to the left, Frank Marsh, assistant deputy minister and Dr. Edna Turpin-Downey, to my right and the back, and with your permission I would like to introduce Wayne Comeau, who is my executive assistant; and Angela McCarthy, who is a Co-op student, an outstanding student I might add, I would like to say that and I told her if she really wanted to see democracy in action, come to this meeting. She is from Gonzaga and comes in to the House, I think, so many afternoons a week. I said this is a model of democracy; I know how this committee operates and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: She is doing the Law course?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: The Law Co-op course, so we are pleased to have her sit-in and listen and enjoy the proceedings. Chairperson, I put together some notes on things that I might say in an introductory statement, but I think my preference tonight is to open up with questions. I have a long list of things that I think are highlights of this year's estimates and perhaps they will come out in the - I think that last year every thing I covered in the introductory statement came out in the questions, and at the end, if you will give me a few minutes, I will probably highlight two or three things if they are not introduced in the questioning, so my preference tonight is to get right into the discussion of the estimates.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I have just had a note advising that Mr. Harris is ill and will not be attending this evening.

Who wishes to open -

MS. VERGE: I propose that Mr. Hearn, our visitor, lead off. He is the official opposition education critic.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hearn.

MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. It is certainly a pleasure to be here and as the minister said, I believe the committee is the prime example of democracy in action because if anybody comes to the House I am not 100 per cent sure whether you would appreciate the kind of democracy that goes on there, even though you look beyond perhaps what is obvious to maybe what is not so obvious - the real workings of the House - to see that the parliamentary system is at work and the democratic system is at work; but it is pretty hard to find it sometimes, and you wonder how serious people are.

At the committee level I find, whatever the committee might be, I have had the opportunity to travel around on different committees where you have small numbers concentrating on a certain topic and being very serious about it. You do get the flow back and forth, and you get the participation levels, and then you get discussions and you see the power plays and everything else that make up our democratic system. In the end you usually see, as in all democracies, that the majority wins, which makes you wonder sometimes why you bother at all.

Anyway, with that said, I should allude to the fact, I suppose, that the minister is a constituent of mine, or at least a partial constituent. I do not think he has voting rights yet. It would be interesting if he had, because there are polls in that area I win by a shutout, and it would be interesting to see if it changed. It would be embarrassing if I did, maybe.

On more serious matters, in the present year's budget for the department, there are a couple of glaring concerns that I have. Maybe another concern that has arisen in recent days is as a result of what is shown or not shown in the budget. Perhaps we will get into this because it is fresher first, and that is the recent decision by the University Senate to raise entrance requirements to a 70 percent. I questioned the minister on it yesterday and he seemed to be concerned about the implications also. I have no problem with trying to raise our standards of education in the Province - absolutely no doubt about it; but I am not sure whether we are going to raise educational standards by raising entrance requirements that block certain people from entering post-secondary institutions whereby they increase their educational standards. I think this is what might be happening here. I am wondering about the real reason.

We can say that the standards of entrance in other provinces are higher than ours and we must try to compete because some of our students, thinking that we might not be a top-notch university, will opt to go to others that have higher entrance standards and what have you. That is all well and good, but what we also have to remember is something that none of us are proud of, the fact that our level of education in the Province, the number of those who hold university degrees, the number of those who have attended post-secondary, the number of those who have a high school education, etcetera, would be below, I guess, every other province in Canada, or certainly most.

I am not using that as an excuse, because for years I have argued that it is not perhaps our educational system that has really determined our standard, when I hear figures of 40 per cent or 50 per cent - I even heard today somebody mention 60 per cent of our people are illiterate. I dispute that, and I have always disputed it in the fact that when a lot of people talk about illiterate it is as if we are know-nothings. If we have a large section of the population of our Province who have not had the opportunity to obtain a Grade IX or Grade X education, it is not necessarily because we have had a poor education system per se. If we look into the history and geography of how Newfoundland was developed in comparison to the more newly settled provinces, there is some difference in what we had to face in our development and settlement and the delivery of education programs than take for instance Alberta, where people only moved there a short time ago in comparison to Newfoundland. We look at the geography that we have, and when we realize the total lack of communications; our transportation systems over the years; the delivery systems that we had to use, or which we did not have at all, can certainly explain - and of course the other thing, the isolation, where people only saw what went on in the area and were quite happy with it. If your father fished so did you fish. Whether you had Grade I or Grade X or no grade, it did not make any difference. If you knew how to cut bait and bait a trawl and use the jigger, I mean, that was the name of the game. If you could bake bread and knit sweaters as a woman, I'm not trying to demean anybody, that was a way of life. Maybe it was a lot better way of life than we have at present.

Education was not of any great importance as such. Then it became important. Even in those days education was important, yes, but maybe not formal schooling. Eventually it changed but it took a long time and our communication systems - it is only in very recent years that we have had ready access to many parts of this Province. Even today it is pretty hard to deliver proper education in some of our areas, as everyone knows. That easily explains why a lot of people did not get a high school education.

Because of that we are still, I guess, on the average behind a lot of the country. There is one way to bring up our average, and that is to give as many people as possible the opportunity to get as much education as possible. I always say I am never worried about how good a person is coming into a program; it is how good the person is going out that makes the difference. That could be from the minor hockey team - and I always use the example of the time I was coaching a senior all-star team, and this young fellow tried out, and several were cut and he wasn't. Everybody was saying: how come you kept this young fellow? Simply because he came and he worked hard, he was dedicated, he did everything he was told, and he had the right attitude. Even though several supposedly all-stars were dropped and he was kept, and, you know, people questioned it, at the final series at the end of the year, and in fact it was the all Newfoundland playoff, the Most Valuable Player on the team, or in the tournament, was that young fellow. Simply because he did not have the wherewithal perhaps coming in, but he had everything it took to develop.

We have many people, especially in the rural areas of this Province, who might find it very hard in the circumstances in which they go to school to come up with a 70 per cent average. But given a chance they might go from there. I have real concerns that we might be moving too far too fast.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEARN: So that is one of the topics that I think we should talk about.

A couple of others, quickly, I only have ten or fifteen minutes, most of which is gone.

MS. VERGE: I think the member should share with the whole Committee what the member for (Inaudible).

MR. HEARN: Yes, I will. The member says: I know you are retiring in June. That is not factual. I did not say anything about retiring at all. I hope you ask the question before that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEARN: The question is, I guess: does the minister have that same concern and are we maybe moving too far too fast, or does he think that we have reached the level now whereby 70 per cent is not going to inhibit anybody? Because even some university education, it is shown, shows that people who have any university education or trade school or whatever have better chances in the employment rolls than people who have none. So even if somebody gets in there for a while and maybe even can't make it, he or she is better off than shutting the door and not letting anybody in. Or is it because we have to find a way to cut down on enrolments to fit our budget and this is the easiest way to do it? That is a major concern that we have.

Board funding is certainly a big concern. Despite all the assurance the minister has given, boards are still saying they are in desperate need of funding. I think the present setup of wiping out the school tax on one hand and putting in a mechanism that really rips off the people on the other hasn't done anything at all to help the average person and hasn't done anything to help boards. Certainly that is something I think now, as we have seen it unfold, he should comment on.

A number of headings in the minister's Department show the salary vote is down. Does it mean more layoffs? We have some real problems in the field now with lack of proper liaison and follow up and new programs, the development of new programs, etcetera, and are things going to get progressively worse?

So these are just a few of the things, the major things. There are specific questions which we can ask later on, but certainly I would be interested in the minister a little later on when he speaks covering some of these.

DR. WARREN: Thank you. Do you recognize me or do I just carry on?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I recognize you, Mr. Minister, to respond to the member.

DR. WARREN: I will take two or three minutes to respond to the members concern because I share these concerns and have for a long time. I was part of the university in my former life, and I believed in a relatively open door policy for admission, and supported for years providing everybody with an opportunity. As a university professor I didn't focus on the admission requirements as much as perhaps I would at the present time. But I think things have changed in this Province and I think it is not just a matter of saving money, or it is not just to keep up with other provinces. We know that Memorial has had a relatively low admission requirement, in fact, as I said in the House the other day, it has the lowest of the forty-six universities studied in the Maclean's magazine study.

I think the reasons are more than that, certainly one being the good use of resources. When you have limited resources it is important to make effective use of these limited resources the best you can. That is a concern at the university. I don't think they are trying to cap enrolments or keep people out. I think they found that there are a large number of students who were admitted in the past who had little chance of successfully benefitting from their university education. They did three major studies, and I don't have all of the studies. I read the major thesis that was done by a person named Wilson, but they had two other studies done, and the chances of successfully completing a program - and this is for the general, we are not talking about the business school - we are talking here about admission requirements for the general arts and science degrees. I think they found that one in seven, only, completed the program in a reasonable period of time. Now maybe you say that one who completed should be given that chance, but that is not a very effective use of resources. Perhaps there are other ways of helping that one. Beefing up the high school program as we are doing, building on the past, providing opportunities for mature students to get in, making sure the colleges have programs in them so the students who want to increase their grades to meet the new average have every opportunity to do it, perhaps closer to home and not having to come to university and fail for a number of years.

So I think the studies they had done demonstrated that too many students were being admitted who had little reasonable chance of benefiting from the university experience. These studies concluded that it was good for the student because the increased entrance requirements might result in a student applying himself or herself a little bit more. The studies indicated that it might be good for high school students because they would then seek a higher level of excellence. It is certainly good for the university in that you are applying your limited resources more effectively, and there are some who will say that it is good for the Province because we need to promote excellence in all our educational institutions, and by raising it to 70 per cent you are enhancing excellence.

So the short answer is that today I think it is not an unreasonable position for the university to take. The university has that authority. I will, however, monitor it as a minister. The department will monitor what is happening. We will be communicating with the university formally in the next few days asking them to provide us with the data that they had which looked at the effects of the proposed regulations on rural and urban students. I would like to know the possible impact on students in small schools and large schools, and I would like to look at the effect on certain groups with certain social economic backgrounds. I want to monitor that. The university has done a report which says that this regulation will not differentially - I think is the word they used - affect urban and rural. In many rural parts of Newfoundland right now the students are achieving the 70 per cent and will not be discriminated against. It doesn't discriminate on the basis of social economic background or on male or female students. But I, as minister, and the department will be writing the university and asking for further information. It is not to be introduced until, I think 1993, and we will be asking the university to monitor it because I share some of the members concerns.

Now I will try to be brief on the other two issues that he raises, Chairperson, because I know there are other questions on board funding. Yes, some boards are experiencing some problems at the present time. We have tried to monitor the cash flow problems of school boards. There are some parts of the Province where the school tax revenues are up to 15 per cent below, someone told me today 17 per cent in one case below what was anticipated, what could have been raised this year. In other parts of the Province, I was in Dover, Bonavista Bay on Friday night and sat next to the superintendent of the Nova Consolidated School Board and he said their collections are right on. I gather the collections are down in certain areas of the Province where they are having tremendous economic problems in the fishery and with unemployment, and they would have been down anyway. But I want to assure the member that I have told the school boards what we will do, we will guarantee the boards that they will receive, between January and June 30, the monies that they would have received, every one of them, from the school tax.

We are looking at the options. Perhaps I should say one other thing, that we will be in a position within a few days, I won't say two or three days, but perhaps in the next few days of announcing the next step in what we are going to do to ensure that we collect the monies. If these monies are not forthcoming before the end of June, the government will provide the additional funds for school boards so that they will receive between January and June 30 all the monies they would have received from the school tax, and then of course July 1 we will start the new grants system which puts $1 million a month more into the operation and maintenance of schools for the nine months, or $9 million for this year and $12 million for the school year.

On the liaison, perhaps I will leave that one until later. You may want to be a little more specific. I don't want to take too much time because I am looking forward to other questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. Who would like to have the next round? Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I have lots of questions here. I will ask them fairly briefly so I can get a lot into my short time. Would the minister tell the committee when he will be releasing the report of the Royal Commission on Education? Will he tell us his intentions for the government's response at the same time that he releases the report to the public bearing in mind that he has had it now for a bit more than a month? Will he at the same time table the government's response to any of the recommendations? Will he announce a deadline for responses? Will he indicate whether the government intends to act on any of the recommendations before the next election?

DR. WARREN: That is five. I have been counting the questions.

MS. VERGE: Okay, I will pause now.

DR. WARREN: I don't know if I can remember all five questions. Five or six copies of the report have been in the hands of government for about a month. The printing, I understand, of the main volume is just about done. We are moving to get the printing done on an executive summary, and I am rather pleased to add that I have decided to have a number of copies of the executive summary translated so that we will have a French language version of the executive summary to release at the same time. My expectation is that all of it will be done - the printing of the summary and the translation - and we will be ready within the next two to three weeks to release the report.

As to what the minister or the department will be doing, we will announce at that point in time precisely how we are going to handle the report. The government will not consider and arrive at any position on the report. We want to get the report out early. The member has been anxious to get other reports out. We want to get this report at the earliest possible time.

MS. VERGE: I think you have already missed that. Early would have been April 1. This is May 5 now.

DR. WARREN: We have to do printing. The member must realize that. I have five copies of the report. I have the key. I have one of them locked in my office and I carry another key with me. It takes a few weeks to get the printing done, to get the translation done. I guess you would support that.

MS. VERGE: That is a good stalling tactic. It is original. I will give the minister credit for that. The government did not try that for any of the other reports that have been delayed.

DR. WARREN: I could refer to reports the member held back, but I don't want to get down to that level tonight. We are moving, I can assure the member, and I have no reason not to be perfectly straightforward with the member. As soon as the printing and the summaries are done, and the translation is done, we will release the report. This is our intention, and we have no reason not to.

Having said that, we will announce at that point in time precisely how we will handle the recommendations; whether or not there will be a period for official reactions. All of these details will be announced in due course. I am anxious to get that out to the public. In fact, I have been anxious to get the report out because it is late in the school year and I would like to get it out before things start to clue up in the educational system. We are printing a substantial number of copies, and copies will be made available widely throughout the Province. We will get the discussion going as quickly as possible.

MS. VERGE: I pointed out before that the Wells' administration for the past three years has consistently delayed the release of major reports. I would predict this will be released just after the House of Assembly closes for the summer and just as the school boards and schools are winding down for the year.

DR. WARREN: Would you take me out to dinner if you are wrong?

MS. VERGE: Yes I will.

DR. WARREN: Thank you.

MS. VERGE: I would be glad to do that.

DR. WARREN: It's a deal.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

Now, an important part of the mandate of The Royal Commission had to do with education administration - the administration of the primary, elementary, high schools. It is generally expected that The Royal Commission will recommend a major reduction in the number of school boards, a major consolidation of boards, and of course we have been trending that way for quite a while with declining enrolments and so on.

To what number does the minister think we can realistically reduce? Would the minister see us feasibly reducing the number of school boards to five, consistent with what the government has done with Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador; consistent with the Budget Speech announcement for consolidation of hospital boards; consistent with what the minister himself did with community college boards? Would five be a number to aim for for school boards?

DR. WARREN: Chairperson, the commission was asked to look at the organization, administration of education; to look at a number of very important issues. As a minister I am not in a position to say what would be the ideal number. If I were here perhaps in my former capacity, in my former life, I could give the view, but I am not going to get into it today as to what the commission might recommend or what the commission should recommend. The hon. member can surely wait another two or three weeks then she will find out what the commission recommends and she can then make her own comments on what is appropriate. It would be inappropriate for me to speculate about the number of school districts. We have put in place an outstanding Commission of Inquiry, three outstanding persons, and it would be inappropriate and perhaps very undesirable for me to speculate about what they should recommend.

MS. VERGE: The Budget estimates we have before us give a global amount for community colleges and institutes. Would the minister table for the committee an itemization of the allocations for each institution with the figures for original estimates and revised estimates for last year?

DR. WARREN: We have been handling the post-secondary system in a number of ways. Perhaps as the Minister of Elementary and Secondary she may not be aware that what we do is have a global budget -

MS. VERGE: I was the minister for post-secondary.

DR. WARREN: Post-secondary, were you? Well, not since the colleges - were you?

MS. VERGE: No. We were studying it at the time. The Bay St. George Community College, the College of Trades and Technology and the Fisheries College existed at that time.

DR. WARREN: Let me inform her that things have changed since she was a minister. The global budgeting approach is used in the post-secondary college system. We sit down with the colleges and develop a budget and we are in the process of doing that.

MS. VERGE: When will you finalize the allocations for each of the community colleges and institutes?

DR. WARREN: Two to three weeks.

MS. VERGE: That seems to be the magic date for decisions in education. Okay. The CTBS scores. Why were the most recent CTBS scores for the non-educators and those who have not had the pleasure of working in the Department of Education not released? That is an acronym for a Canadian test of basic skills which for the last many years has been administered to students in our Province I think at Grades 4, 8, ll, and Grade 12 levels. I understand the most recent CTBS scores for our Province have not been made public. Would the minister now make them public?

DR. WARREN: We have the report printed and a news release with the report will be going out I would think within two or three days.

MS. VERGE: Not two or three weeks?

DR. WARREN: Not two or three weeks but within two or three days. In fact the member may have it on her desk. Today, I think, we asked that copies of this report be sent to the members of the House and then we will release it to the public.

MS. VERGE: No, I do not have it.

DR. WARREN: We have Profile 91 which has just come off the press in the last few days and we are distributing it to members of the House of Assembly.

MS. VERGE: Rather than tantalize us, since the minister thinks it is in the mail, I wonder if the minister would give the committee tonight the most recent CTBS scores?

DR. WARREN: I would prefer to wait until we give them to members of the House of Assembly and release them to the public. Some of these are available if she wants a briefing on the individual scores.

MS. VERGE: I would like the minister to table for the committee in a way that does not consume too much of our short time - on paper - the most recent CTBS scores for students in our Province.

DR. WARREN: You want me to table them now?

MS. VERGE: Yes. If you do not have it at your fingertips I would certainly understand but usually in these committees -

DR. WARREN: I have the general trends and the developments. I think I could perhaps recall for you, or perhaps Dr. Turpin-Downey would be a more logical person to give you a summary of the findings. It is my recollection, and I read the findings some time ago, that in certain areas there are fluctuations over the years. In certain areas we are a little up and in certain areas we are a little down. Across the country the CTBS scores are used in several provinces, not all provinces any more, some of them are judged to be inappropriate. In the area of math for example I think we are down a little as we are across the country. Math programs are changing. I think the member recalls the introduction of a new math program some five or six years ago. We have some problems with the math and I think the CTBS scores this year are down a bit, and we are beginning to analyze. We have a couple of experts in the area of math in our Department. Dr. Fagan is doing an analysis. We have, I think, some problems in the area of mathematics, and we are looking at the relationship between the test and the scores. In the area of English there are two or three areas we are up. I could get the information but perhaps Dr. Turpin-Downey would do that.

MS. VERGE: No. We have a very short period of time to ask questions. All I would like the minister to do is to table a written summary of the CTBS scores. The way they have always been made public in the past.

DR. WARREN: I will table the full report. That compares with other years. This full report, in the next day or so, yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: I would like to distribute it to members of the House first.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

DR. WARREN: I would prefer to do it in a (Inaudible) - I think the hon. member who was the Minister of Education had a news release with the last one when he was the minister, and we do it through a news release, after we have distributed it to members. I do not think anybody has this report yet, neither side of the House. I was going to do it through the normal process.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Verge. We are through that ten minutes. Are there any other members who would like to ask some questions? Are you indicating, Mr. Ramsay?

MR. RAMSAY: Yes. I have a number of things.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramsay.

MR. RAMSAY: Mr. Minister, I note the achievements and challenges document that your Department has prepared. When I'm going through that document with reference to the overall initiatives in education, I wonder about the process of reporting on the effectiveness of the various initiatives that are implemented. What type of analysis is done of your initiatives that you have undertaken with changes to the various programs? An example being, I suppose, the recent announcement of changes to the economic aspects of secondary education. I just wonder about what has been set up in the way of an analysis process following that implementation this September. The economic education would be I guess increased number of credit requirements in economic oriented course material for high school students. Likewise, the changes in maths and sciences.

As we approach the future I suppose it seems that we are going to have to adapt the educational requirements of students to effect the necessary changes so they can deal in the so-called global economy. The thing that I often wonder about government and the implementation of programs, of course, is the effectiveness reporting, or the way of determining just how, other than through test results. Like what we were just discussing through the Vice-Chair. Departmentally, how these are analyzed and I guess that would apply to any of the initiatives that have been noted in this document that you have prepared.

Another thing that I note in here. The changes of public examinations from provincially administered to locally administered exams, and the question of how that initiative has affected, I suppose, the overall performance of students, as to whether there is any variation in the level of achievement of students, or the testing and the quality of testing. I note there is some explanation there of data and the way data is handled with respect to that, and the methods of analyzing the quality of this testing.

I think as we go forward into the future the idea that we have of creating a national educational test, so that there becomes a Canadian standard, is something worthy of note and I wonder what the government's position on this is, if you could comment on that. I will just leave it at that now, Mr. Minister.

DR. WARREN: The report that the member is mentioning is a report that was stimulated by a question in the House of Assembly last year, when we were talking about achievements and challenges in education. The department put together a summary of some of the achievements and challenges from 1989-1992.

I guess what we were saying is that even though a Commission of Inquiry is in place we did not stop everything. One of the criticisms of Royal Commissions in the past has been, that when you set up a Commission of Inquiry you put everything on hold, but we did not and I am delighted with the number of initiatives the department has taken in the past two or three years while this commission is studying. Now our expectation was that what we did would be consistent with many other recommendations of the commission, but we undertook major changes in education, math, science and technology for example. I could list them and I think these are basic. We reviewed these in this report.

One of the most exciting things that we have done as a department - and yesterday I met with some students going to the mainland in Enterprise Education exchanges - one of the most exciting things we have done is in the area of entrepreneurship, Enterprise Education and Economic Education. I can provide you with a lot of details of what has happened in the Province. In fact we have changed the graduation requirements so that in the future people have to do at least one course in the area of economic education. That is one of the most exciting developments. The math/science things are great too, but the developments in the area of Enterprise Education, Co-op Education, entrepreneurship are some of the most exciting from the student's perspective, from the teacher's perspective in terms of relevance to the future development of this Province.

If we are going to develop as a Province economically, we have to change the attitudes. Yesterday I said to the students with whom I met, I think it was yesterday, who were going to Nova Scotia: we have to create an enterprise culture, an entrepreneurial spirit not only among our working force but in students and the course work we are doing and the schools which I visit - and I am proud to say that I visited a fair number of schools this year - I see exciting things happening in these areas and I could give you a lot of details on what is happening.

The attitudes of people towards these courses and towards looking at development in this Province, small industry, is just outstanding. I will just be brief on the National School Achievement Indicators Project; that is a project of the Council of Ministers of Education, the Vice-Chair here was a Chair of that group at one point in time, and they are putting together a study of numeracy, literacy in the country, and they are going to measure achievement in, I think it is thirteen year olds and sixteen year olds in these areas, to see how well we are doing as a nation.

Now I have some concerns about that project and I have expressed those concerns nationally because you cannot measure educational achievements only in grades. You have to think of attitudes and especially grades in those subject areas. I have some concerns, I have expressed them and we are addressing these concerns. All provinces are in now with one exception, I think Saskatchewan has some reservations about it since the change of government.

What we are doing in education is, we are saying: we have to test the results. We have to be more accountable and one way to do it is to look at some of these results. We are participating, we will have a sample done here of the levels of achievement in this Province and we will be able to see where we stand in comparison with other Provinces, but I think in the future, if we are going to compete with Japan and Germany and the United States, we have to promote excellence at all levels in the school system and the Council of Ministers hope this will help us promote higher standards, higher expectations in education; it is an exciting initiative.

We, in this Province of course do our own testing through the test of basic skills; we have our own public examinations which we are trying to improve; we have the school excellence programs ongoing, we are evaluating progress school by school and how well they are doing. What about morale in the school? What about the programs?

There are a lot of exciting things happening. We did not put things on hold when we appointed this Royal Commission. We moved ahead, knowing that maybe some things may not be totally consistent but that we are making changes. Some real changes have been made in the school system. In the next year or so, with The Royal Commission - remember, Mr. Ramsay, I said the other day that perhaps the slogan should be: Fasten your seat belt. We are going to have a little turbulence for the short-term; but we are going to have some more changes in education in this Province to make sure that our people are prepared for the next century. We have to improve further aspects of our educational system.

MR. RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, if I might bring the minister back to - I thank you for your answers - back to one question which I asked. Of course, when he gets excited about something you can see he just fastens his seat belt and away he goes.

The only other question that you left either bit unanswered was with regard to the evaluative process of course initiatives and initiatives that the department has made.

DR. WARREN: Let me just add one final comment to conclude my other earlier statement. That is that I think we should challenge our students more. I think students are capable of doing much more in school, in colleges and in universities than they are doing, and I think we should challenge them. I think the big criticism of our high school program, as good as it is - and I always pay tribute to the former administration for expanding the high school program - the big criticism is that we are not challenging students adequately, particularly the more able, the talented and the gifted. I think students want to be challenged and should be challenged more.

I have been advised by Mr. McCormick here that we have advisory committees in place with each new initiative in enterprise education and co-op education, and these committees will be helping to assess the results of these initiatives.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Ramsay.

DR. WARREN: Representatives of the private sector are on these committees.

MR. RAMSAY: As well.

DR. WARREN: As well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren.

MR. WARREN: I have a question or two for the minister. Recently, in the last few years, a number of teachers throughout the Province have been charged through the courts for sexual abuse and child abuse. Yesterday I think one of the superintendent's of a school board on the West Coast pressed a panic button that there is a lot of concern in our Province. I am just wondering: As the Minister of Education, as a department, what avenues has the minister explored, or what paths will he follow in trying to get to the root of this problem, because I am concerned, as many others are. It is only just a couple of days ago that we saw a teacher in Norman's Cove being convicted. This is one of several over the last number of years. I am just wondering if there is another Mount Cashel out there and we are not doing our job in trying to bring this and tackle this head on. I am just wondering if we are doing enough. I would like to ask the minister, as the Minister of Education, where we have in particular a lot of children involved, is the minister to the point that he is going to go one step further, and whether there is going to be a commission or an investigation throughout the schools? I think there needs to be something done. I am just wondering what the minister is going to do?

DR. WARREN: I thank the member for the question, because we as a department are concerned about the developments of recent years. We have already taken a number of initiatives. We have not considered investigations because we have had an ongoing investigation in the major issue which has sensitized many people in this Province to this, the tragedy of child abuse generally, and child sexual abuse in particular.

We have undertaken a number of initiatives and I would like to list two or three. I will ask Dr. Turpin-Downey to expand on what I have said, particularly with respect to yesterday's story and the concerns that we have as a result of what we knew and what we know and what should be done.

Over the past two or three years, and perhaps before, perhaps over the last five years, the Department has been working with school boards and teachers on in-service education in this area. I could expand on that, but there are in-service programs. Experts are invited in to these in-service programs, and they were going on before I became the minister, I'm sure. Teachers sponsor some, the Department sponsors some, trustees sponsor. Trustees have had a number of conferences where this has been an issue. So there has been an ongoing public education among educators on this issue.

One of the first things I did when I became the minister was to call Dr. Crocker, the new Dean of Education, and suggest to him that there are two or three issues that I felt should be included in the pre-service education of every teacher. The three or four topics that I mentioned were: child abuse, human rights, gender equity, multiculturalism. I am delighted to inform the member that Dr. Crocker advised me recently that they now have a course on child abuse, getting at the root issue, so that teachers will have the basic information. Now they have courses on gender equity, I am pleased to tell the Vice-Chair, as well, a new course was introduced. It wasn't my prompting. I think I probably encouraged it. I won't take any credit for these new courses but I did call Dr. Crocker, convened a meeting with him, and focused on child abuse, human rights, and gender equity.

The Faculty of Education now has a program, has at least a course, and tries to sensitize all prospective teachers to the nature, the root causes, the community causes and so on. That is the second thing.

The third thing is that we have drafted a policy statement on child abuse, child sexual abuse, it may be. I will ask Dr. Edna Turpin-Downey in a minute to tell you where that is, as I have not checked to find out where precisely that policy is. We want to have a policy. Many school boards have policies in place. I have met with the trustees on it. Michael Harrington, who is the trustees' lawyer, was at a recent meeting where we were talking about this, and I was there to participate. So, the school boards are anxious to do it.

We are drafting a policy from the Department that ensures that this issue is dealt with. In that policy there will be information on not only diagnosing and getting help, but on how one identifies such cases, and how the person should report. What the law says on reporting. Because we know what the Hughes Inquiry said about lack of reporting. We have a law on the books, across Canada by the way, in other provinces, which has not been applied either. So we are developing our own policy statement on this.

Now yesterday, or two or three days ago, I gather there was a story on a particular school. I do not want to focus on that school. But I tell you that we have been in contact with that school. The school has not requested additional help. The Department of Social Services has been in contact with that school. I talked with the minister about it today. They have had people into the school from the regional office, I gather even their people from the Department of Social Services who are in the region.

Dr. Edna Turpin-Downey has been in conversation with that board so she is the right person to give the information on how we have been involved. I certainly am concerned; I'm pleased the member mentioned this. I would like for her to comment first on the policy that we are developing on child sexual assault and child abuse generally; and secondly, to comment very briefly on the school. I do not want to focus on the name of the school but on what we have done and what we have been asked to do and what information we have. Doctor?

DR. EDNA TURPIN-DOWNEY: There actually is a draft policy in the system at this point in time. It was a policy that was developed by all of the agencies together a year and a half or so ago. What we are trying to formalize is put in place proper reporting procedures. But I think the critical concern of the schools and school boards at this point in time is actually dealing with the students who suffer from this. Quite frankly, a tremendous amount of in-service has been done with teachers, again through the various agencies in combination with the NTA and the Department of Education.

With regard to the situation on the west coast, that really only came to our attention today, in the sense that we were not made aware of it. So I called the superintendent and he said: gee, a response team was called in a month and a half or so ago, and chaired by the pastoral person working with the school board. They had the three school counsellors, two program coordinators, the mental health worker from the hospital, Social Service workers, coordinated by the principal, where this response team was brought in to work with the students. There are twenty-five students in fact in that one particular school but no teacher was responsible for this abuse. It is actually a convenience store owner who had porno video tapes and there is no question that twenty-five children were definitely sexually abused.

The superintendent obviously in calling in the response team knew that they could only help those children during the school hours, four or five. So what they are doing now is working with the community to see what kind of support services can be given to the parents at home in dealing with those children. They have been severely traumatized. There is no question in the superintendent's mind or in the principal's mind.

DR. WARREN: Was Social Services called in, was I correct in making that...?

DR. TURPIN-DOWNEY: Yes. In fact, it has been on the go for a couple of years, but Social Services could not get evidence to prove that this was actually happening. None of the students confessed this or admitted it.

DR. WARREN: There's still no conviction either, is there?

MS. VERGE: Yes, there is.

DR. WARREN: There's a conviction.

MS. VERGE: But that's only one case.

DR. WARREN: No, the school is addressing it - my understanding is the school has been working on this with a response team.

MS. VERGE: I talked to the principal of the school this morning.

DR. WARREN: Well.

MS. VERGE: And there is not an adequate response.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: There are about twenty-five or thirty children who are victims of one offender, who was featured in a t.v. story last night, but there are about thirty or thirty-five victims of another offender convicted about three years ago who are in that Stephenville Crossing school system, and that is only one community in that school district.

DR. TURPIN-DOWNEY: Oh, absolutely.

DR. WARREN: Absolutely, (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: We have other recent media stories of convictions in De Grau, in Lourdes, in Cape St. George. A community worker in Stephenville said to me this morning the problem is just out of control. This worker said to me: the Appalachia RC School Board and Social Services basically are carrying out a public relations campaign instead of mounting an intensive effort to provide counselling for the victims.

DR. WARREN: Well, you've made a number of statements. I understood that the board itself had a response team in place to deal with as many victims as possible. It is also my understanding that The Department of Social Services was called in. I asked the minister today and he said, yes, they are examining the whole issue. They have only recently been advised of it and they are -

MS. VERGE: But, with respect, there have been many cases of child sexual abuse uncovered -

DR. WARREN: Well, I would not have that information. That's Social Services (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: - in that region in the last several years. We all know about Father Ron Kelly. That case was dealt with, in a manner of speaking, twelve years ago.

DR. WARREN: I wouldn't know about that, as Minister of Education. Social Services has access to all this data.

MS. VERGE: It was highlighted in the Hughes Inquiry, it was on t.v. night after night.

DR. WARREN: Sure, well (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: That's only one region, and it is typical.

DR. WARREN: I think though, Chairperson, with respect, we are talking about what the school, can do in the school, and in answer to the question I wanted to indicate that we are concerned about it. We have a number of actions ongoing. I think it is a problem, though, in answer to the question again, that must be addressed by the community, by the various departments of government. It is my understanding that it is being addressed. Perhaps it is taking too long. We know lots of cases where actions should have been taken years and years ago, but that action wasn't.

I assure you as the Minister of Education, we are concerned about it, I am concerned about it. The Department is doing everything possible to ensure that teachers are aware of what can happen, that they have good background training in the area, and that they know the reporting procedure, and that they will be involved with psychologists and with others in the community in an attempt to provide help for students who are so damaged.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. I think I should intervene at this point. We are three minutes over the time slot for this particular question period. So are there any other members who wish to intervene at this point?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: I have to offer an apology. I cut in on the member's time, so I will forgo my next time and allow the member to carry on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not think we have any problem. I was indulgent because of the nature of the exchange (Inaudible) that time. But what we try to do is keep to ten minute segments, including the questions and the answers. But if we do not have any difficulty then nobody will have any difficulty. But if we stick to the ten minutes it is fair to everybody.

Who would like to go next?

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, it is our intention to allow as much debate back and forth as the government members to the Opposition. Somewhere along the way this evening I would like to not just deal with the issues at hand that are cropping up. I would also like to deal with the estimates and the numbers.

We want to allow the other members of the Committee, the Opposition members, as much time as possible. I guess our interjections will come every once in a while when we want to deal specifically with something in the estimates, so that at least we might be able to check off a few items. I realize historically that these sessions have been wide-ranging and debate has been wide-ranging. I have never agreed with that and I think the very first estimates committee I ever attended I felt that we be as wide-ranging as we wanted as long as we are dealing with something in the estimates. I said that from the very first meeting I attended, and I do not feel any different today.

Our intention is, again because of time constraints, to try to allow our colleagues on the other side of the House to have as much time as possible. But somewhere along the line, from our side, we would like to see us at least getting through some numbers and dealing with some numbers. So we would prefer - once in a while, maybe, just to interject, but I think our intention is to allow it to go as much as possible to our colleagues on the other side. But as I said, I am on record from Day 1 saying we are here to discuss estimates, and that goes back, Day 1 as in spring of 1989. I am not here to debate that issue, but I am just saying: carry on.

MS. VERGE: No, if Mr. Warren does not want to resume questioning, I can have a few minutes and perhaps he can cut in on me -

MR. WARREN: I want to finish what I was just starting -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well if nobody has a problem, we will give Mr. Warren another ten minutes. Mr. Warren.

MR. WARREN: Yes. I just want to continue where we left off. I believe the lady spoke and said that you had some kind of a policy in a draft stage for the last year and a half. Now I think that is the time frame she used, a year and a half in a draft stage. That shows, to me, that you are not moving very fast and I just want to use that comment, and you know, if we are going to deal with this issue and you are concerned about this issue, surely goodness a year and a half at the draft stage is a long time to be dealing with such a very important issue.

MR. WALSH: Could I give you -

MR. WARREN: I will finish my comments and then you can speak afterwards.

MR. WALSH: It took seventeen years to get this far so we are not doing too badly I guess.

MR. WARREN: The minister, in response to questions from the Vice-Chair, earlier, used and I would probably say the same thing she said, an excuse, blame it on the printing for the commission report not to be released. Well, if it is printing fine and dandy, but the minister also mentioned that it has to be translated and I think he said it was going to be translated into the French language. I would like to ask the minister, what about the native people in this Province?

Surely goodness you are not going to forget those people if you are going to make a translation of such an important document. I would suggest sir, that if it is delayed this long to get it translated into French, I am willing to wait a few more days for it to be translated also into the native language.

DR. WARREN: I had not planned to do that. There are two official languages at this point in time. We know that there are quite a number of aboriginal languages and once you get into translating -

MR. WARREN: There are only two. There are only two.

DR. WARREN: - these, time would be involved, so our intention is to do it in Canada's two official languages at the present time.

MR. WARREN: I would suggest to you sir, that there are more native people in this Province than there are French.

DR. WARREN: I appreciate your comment.

MR. WARREN: My other comment which I would like to make is in Section 2.1.0.3. -

DR. WARREN: Now we are getting to the estimates, good.

MR. WARREN: - Native peoples education, $1,916,000. Could the minister advise us where the provincial contribution is towards native education? Maybe you can identify it in some other sub-head, but I see all that money there is completely 100 per cent federal funding. A final question to the minister would be that, I notice in heading 3.1.0.8., there are a half-a-million dollars there for Hibernia training, and I would like to ask the minister: due to the uncertainty with the Hibernia project, has the minister rethought this program, is this program still going to continue to go ahead on schedule, with the uncertainty of the Hibernia project?

DR. WARREN: On the native training, that is additional money. The Province puts in the cost of teachers salaries and grants to school boards. I could get you a figure but many millions of dollars are paid by the Province for the education of aboriginal peoples as they are throughout the Province. This is additional federal money that we are pleased to say, goes into native education. Could I pay tribute to the member?....because last year we had a problem on the coast and he and I worked very closely together to get some housing, and I want to pay tribute to the way we worked together and shared in that initiative, because there are tremendous problems and I want to tell the member that I am looking forward to seeing what the Royal Commission said about native education.

He knows that I am concerned about it.

I got a thrill yesterday, and the member got a thrill, when it was announced that Mrs Beatrice Watts would receive a honourary degree. To me she has been one of the outstanding persons in helping to develop programs for our schools on the coast of Labrador and I think it is a tribute to Labrador and to her that Memorial has acknowledged her contribution. I am looking forward to the report of the Royal Commission to see what they say about it. I have some concerns. Perhaps he and I can sit down sometime and exchange views because I have some concerns about the problems that face that area. We are putting a substantial amount of extra money in but we are not achieving the goals that he and I want to achieve. I think perhaps some new approaches are necessary. We are working with some of these communities now but I think we have to do some new things and perhaps on another occasion he and I can chat about what he feels can be done to further enhance education for our native peoples. I am very anxious to do that.

Now, on Hibernia, no, we have not cut back any on the training components. We are optimistic about the future of that project. In fact the delay might help us a bit in providing the kinds of education that are necessary. With the federal government we are providing all kinds of programs. There is a silver lining they say to everything. We have been able to provide a better quality program with the unions, with the Hibernia consortium, and as a department. We are all working together on training and we think it is essential that we continue that, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ramsay.

MR. RAMSAY: I just want to get into the estimates here in a similar area, 3.l.07 Page 173, Career Awards Program under the Offshore Fund. I think that is the Atlantic Accord Career Awards Program. I note there is something there I wanted to question. The projection last year in the budget was $l.196 million and the question is why was only $1 million spent? Was that by application of business to that program? I am sort of wondering what the reason is? Why was the amount spent less than the amount allocated, especially considering that is funding for students under engineering and other co-op programs at Memorial University?

DR. WARREN: I admit I did not know that. I hope the deputy minister has an explanation for that because these career awards are exceptional awards. We are providing all kinds of encouragement now through scholarships and so on for people in math, science and engineering technology. Why did we spend less than was budgeted in 1991-92? Deputy, now you earn your salary.

MR. McCORMICK: Mr. Chairman, I suspect it was a matter of a cash flow. The Career Awards Program has about five components to it. One has to do with supporting co-op students at our post-secondary institutions on work terms. One is actual academic achievement at various levels in the science and technology related programs. Another is faculty awards at the institutions so they can go and do courses and get work experience in places that have offshore related projects or training. Another we introduced last year is entrance scholarships to post-secondary institutions for high school students, one for each electoral district, I think it was. The problem with it is our fiscal and academic years overlap so that the allocation of awards in some cases, especially at the University where there are three semesters, may very well overlap from one fiscal year to another. I think the fund is $15 million for a period of years out of the offshore development fund, and the allocation is approximately $1.3 million per year. If there are some drops towards the end of one fiscal year we pick it up at the beginning of the next fiscal year. There is never a loss of funds on it. So some may or may not utilize their award within the fiscal year, and we would allow some carry over to the other fiscal -

MR. RAMSAY: (Inaudible).

MR. McCORMICK: It might end up adding another year to the program or something like that if the accumulation goes on and it is not awarded any particular year. It doesn't affect that he lost the money. There is a $15 million amount of the offshore fund that is allocated to go towards training that is related for these particular categories.

DR. WARREN: I must say that is encouraging. I find that encouraging because we need to get every cent we can to our students who qualify for these scholarships.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the committee would mind if I asked a brief questions.

MS. VERGE: Sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I was at a very interesting meeting this morning with a lady who has a son with an attention disorder, a learning disability. She got together a group of support workers, about eight or nine people I guess in total, and talked about the problems of dealing with this young person. One person at the meeting was a teacher who was about to retire, and as far as she knew this was the first person who had come through that particular school with this problem. Other people who were more expert in the field, say that there is something like an average of between three and five people in the average classroom who has this sort of problem, something like 10 per cent of the school population. It is very important for these people that their problems are dealt with specifically because if that happens, then they can learn properly and function normally. That might be taking it a bit too far, but in that general direction, but if that doesn't happen they end up being sad cases. It was suggested that the government should undertake the Department of Education and the teaching profession to ensure that there are in services how to train teachers in dealing with children with this sort of problem. One lady doctor who was there said that in the past few years the number of children in the Ontario school system, I believe it was, with mental problems is believed to have increased from about 5 per cent to 20 per cent. Apparently a tremendous increase in the number of people identified as having mental problems in the school system in Toronto or Ontario. Is that something that the department is aware of and maybe looking into dealing with?

DR. WARREN: I will give you a short answer and perhaps Edna will want to supplement or expand. I have met with groups of parents, many groups, and the group that I have really appreciated meeting with in the last - groups such as the parents that you mentioned. This whole question of disabilities is taking on increased visibility and significance. We now realize that everybody has the right to an education and we should put support services in place to guarantee that. Parents are very supportive arguing that government should develop new policies, new programs. We have some programs in place, but these are complex areas and it is often very difficult to assess, diagnose and provide remediation for these programs. However, I want to pay tribute to the parents because they are doing what some parents did in the past, increasingly they are advocating changes in education and I have met with them.

At the most recent meeting I attended the one request was that I approach the university about requiring all teachers to have some exposure to the theory and practice in this area and I have done that recently. Again, as I mentioned, Dr. Crocker is the dean and he advised me that in developing new programs now, they are looking at the possibility in fact of requiring all teachers to have some instruction in this area; that would be the start. That is only one step along the way but I have always felt that all teachers should have special education training because all teachers should be special education teachers, taking each student, but they tell me at the faculty that quite a number of students take these courses now but they are looking at changes to make sure that more teachers take them, that is the first thing.

Secondly, we have some support programs in place. We have a special education policy, where we outline procedures for dealing with these situations, we do not have enough specialists in all areas but we have a fair number of psychologists, therapists and guidance counsellors in place. I know that we do not have enough but I think we are beginning to make some progress in this area.

I would like Edna to expand or comment on that.

DR. E. TURPIN-DOWNEY: With regard to children with learning disabilities and attention deficit disorders, the preceptionary reality is numbers are on the increase, and I think in some cases numbers are on the increase simply because the so-called medically fragile babies are living longer. The medical care has increased substantially so these children remain alive with very good health care up until the time they are able to cope on their own. Then of course, the diagnosis has improved substantially in the school system; the reporting procedure has improved substantially, so yes, in that sense, the reporting, the fact that these children are living longer, the diagnosis of these children's specific problems has improved. The reason why I think the numbers of the children with the problem, particularly the attention deficit problem, is that mothers who have been on drugs - and there are high numbers of adolescents as well as single parents and these kinds of people on drugs and on alcohol - and that is definitely affecting the babies. So we are only now seeing the children I suppose, who were born to these kinds of people, okay, when drugs really became big, let us say ten, fifteen years ago, whatever, but I think you are now seeing the spin-off of that, but clearly, the fact is that they are being identified.

Also, the term learning disability is a lot more acceptable and a lot more favourable than special education or opportunity class children, as they used to be called, so the term learning disabled and particularly attention deficit is better than hyperactivity, okay? New labels that seem to be more acceptable to larger numbers of parents, but yes, we are definitely aware of the numbers, definitely aware of the need for further supports. The diagnosis has improved; now we are doing our best to improve the supports through the policy of individualized program planning for those students.

DR. WARREN: I am delighted to add just one final comment, and that is the post-secondary institutions are now providing support for such students when they get out of the regular school system. The Blundon Centre, I think, at Memorial, and the other colleges now have support services and are providing help for students who may have certain kinds of learning disabilities that are not visible.

DR. E. TURPIN-DOWNEY: We are having our first graduates this year who had severe learning disabilities at Memorial.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Now, Ms. Verge is next.

MS. VERGE: I would like to ask the minister about the denominational education system, specifically about the provisions in the Constitution of Canada for a Newfoundland and Labrador denominational education system.

The Premier, in approaching questions of constitutional reform, relies very heavily on opinion polls in the sense that he frequently cites public opinion polls.

The minister will recall when the Premier staunchly opposed the Meech Lake Accord and succeeded in thwarting it, he constantly referred to public opinion. I have heard him much more recently in this round of constitutional amendments.

MR. WALSH: A point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Walsh.

MR. WALSH: I am not sure where we are going with the line of questioning and I have to tell you, I probably spent as much time with the Premier during the Meech Lake period as anyone else, and I do not recollect him using a whole lot of opinion polls in his quotes. Nor do I recollect that he has used a lot of them in this House, except on occasion when he has been referring to our polls and the polls for the opposition being equal, although the numbers being in reverse; but that is the only time. I have not heard him on as many occasions as you are referring to, and only because this is Hansard, Mr. Chairman, I do not want something to be read into Hansard that to me is inaccurate.

MS. VERGE: With respect, I think I am entitled to use my ten minutes. The member can have a turn afterwards.

MR. WALSH: No, no, Mr. Chairman. Yes, you are entitled to use the ten minutes, but not entitled to put on record something that one, is not correct, and two, leaves Hansard with a thought pattern that really does not exist. It is an inaccuracy and it should not be there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Walsh. I think that is a point of clarification rather than a point of order. If nobody has an objection, perhaps Ms. Verge would get on with her questioning.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

I am confident Hansard will record verbatim what I say as well as what the other members say.

At any rate, to the best of my recollection the Premier has frequently referred to public opinion on issues of constitutional reform.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, on a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Walsh.

MS. VERGE: The Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island is not making a point of order.

MR. WALSH: Yes he is.

MS. VERGE: The Chair has ruled on it.

MR. WALSH: I am making a new point of order.

With all due respect, and to the best of your memory, it is just another way of saying the same thing you said before. It is inaccurate and you should not be saying it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Walsh. I would make the same ruling on that point of order, and I would ask Ms. Verge to get on with her questioning please.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

There is a difference of opinion between two hon. members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MS. VERGE: I would like to put to the minister: What information does the minister have about the opinion of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians about our denominational system; and what information does the minister have about the opinion of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians about the alternative of a public education system?

DR. WARREN: I could be facetious and ask: What subhead of the estimates is that under?; but I will not do that. I will respond to the question, because we are dealing with the estimates and I do not know where in the estimates we are dealing (inaudible).

MS. VERGE: If I might interject -

DR. WARREN: Okay, let me continue.

MS. VERGE: The precedents of the House committees clearly show that questions about departmental policy on all matters within the department's responsibility are quite in order, and we usually ask these type of broad policy questions in connection with the minister's salary head.

DR. WARREN: What is the question?

MS. VERGE: The question is, what information does the minister have about the opinion of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians about the denominational education system in this Province?

DR. WARREN: And what are the findings?

MS. VERGE: And part two, what information does the minister have about the opinion of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians about the alternative of a public education system?

DR. WARREN: I will answer the question directly. The department has not done any polls.

MS. VERGE: That is not what I asked. What information does the minister have?

DR. WARREN: May I give the answer? She can ask the question but the minister has the right to give the answer that he or she wishes, with respect. The department has not done any polls about the denominational issue so officially we do not have a departmental poll. The task force that the minister was privileged to serve on, thanks to not the Vice-Chair of this committee but to another former minister, did an opinion poll study on the denominational system. The results I do not recall precisely but I gather there was substantial division of opinion. Perhaps 50-something per cent favoured the denominational system and 40 per cent perhaps opposed the denominational system in that task force poll. I have other information about another study that was done, not by the Department of Education, of opinion polls and I refuse to report on that. I am not at will to do that. In fact I have conducted some polls and I have knowledge of these. I conducted two polls in another context of denominational views and let me say that whereas there is considerable division of opinion more recently the polls that I am familiar with have indicated that there has been a move towards increased support of interdenominational sharing. The questions that deal with sharing reflect a movement in the Province of public opinion. Where it is demonstrated that the quality of education can be enhanced through a different type of system the public tend to support that system. I think the percentages of the general public have increased. If you break down the opinion polls by age, by social economic occupation and by even denomination, of course, the poll results vary significantly. The older the population the more supportive the persons are. The CBC poll, the task force poll, the Warren polls, the two polls that Warren did some years ago, reflected the older the participant, the person polled, the more supportive they were of the current system, and the higher the level of formal education the lower was the level of support for the denominational system and the higher was the degree of support for other systems. There were certain denominations where the percentage of support in the polls was substantially high. In the Pentecostal denomination traditionally the level of support for the current denominational system is relatively high. The Roman Catholic is more divided, and the integrated, I think, in the polls I did some years ago is perhaps evenly split on the support for the current system and for some other system of education.

MS. VERGE: What level of support was there for a purely public education system in the most recent polling the minister knows about? He tantalizes us with a suggestion that he has been unofficially notified of some recent polling, and he did concede that he knows of 'another study ' but he is not at liberty to divulge that. That is quite tantalizing.

DR. WARREN: Yes it is. I do not want to mislead the member and say that I do not have other knowledge. I am trying to be perfectly frank without providing the member with the information. On the public -

MS. VERGE: But why would the minister hold back this information? Surely the public is entitled to know.

DR. WARREN: In time the member will become familiar with the results.

MS. VERGE: Is that in the next election campaign?

DR. WARREN: This government that I represent - and I will be political - we do not govern on the basis of polls or when an election is, we do what is right whether the election is tomorrow or next week, we have operated on that basis for three years from today. Three years ago today we were appointed. This government does what it thinks is right and will continue to do that irrespective of when the election is held. That is for the record. Three years today.

MS. VERGE: Ah hah. Next I would like to ask the -

DR. WARREN: On the poll. She asked me a question. I wish she would give me an opportunity to answer.

MS. VERGE: Well, I would be glad if the minister would answer but he's using up my time saying nothing!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, your time is used up, Ms. Verge. I wonder would people like to take a break now for ten minutes or so? We will have a recess. We will perhaps come back at about 8:50 p.m. or so. Is that suitable?

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Who would like to begin?

MS. VERGE: I have lots of questions here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I was just asking the minister about the denominational education system and his knowledge of public opinion. He avoided giving me a straightforward answer but did, to repeat my verb, tantalize us by saying that there is another study of which he is aware but he cannot tell us at this stage, but fasten our seat belts because we are in for turbulence. I would like to ask the minister what steps would have to be taken to amend the Constitution to abolish the denominational education system and establish a public education system in this Province?

DR. WARREN: I never speculate on that. I don't want to, as a minister, outline what would happen. That is not an option that the government or the minister has considered. I have some knowledge of Terms 17 and 93 and what has happened in the history of constitutional law. But as a minister it is difficult. It is the kind of question that the Minister of Justice or a former Minister of Justice perhaps would -

MS. VERGE: Or a former education professor.

DR. WARREN: - be in a better position to answer. Or former education professor. I guess in this Province the history of the denominational system is that changes have occurred by consensus and by accommodation. Even compromise. It is not a bad word. The Canadian compromise is not a bad word. I think the strength of the denominational system in this Province is that over the years, despite the legal ground, the legal foundations, the strength of the system is that it has adapted, it has been changed to meet changing conditions. Twenty-five years ago, twenty years ago, no constitutional changes were necessary, and substantial changes took place in the denominational system by consensus largely, and by negotiation. That has been the approach. I think it is a strength of the system.

Now when it comes to constitutional provisions, I suppose this is a section of the Constitution that would be peculiar to this Province and to the federal government. So I assume - and again, I am probably skating on a bit of thin ice here - any constitutional change in this Province that does not impact on other provinces directly would require passage by the House of Assembly and by the Parliament and the Senate of Canada. That is all that would be required. I would think that in any major change, if the Province were to act unilaterally, that other provinces would intervene. Their concurrence, the 7-50 or whatever the amending formula is, is not necessary. But again, as a department we have not, or as a minister I have not, considered that. It is not likely something that the government would consider, unilaterally changing the denominational system.

MS. VERGE: How does the minister feel about the provincial government having a referendum on the question of abolishing the denominational education system through constitutional amendment and establishing a public education system?

DR. WARREN: Perhaps before I give the direct answer to that I would say that we have a public system now in one sense. This system is supported by the public. I know the words "public system" has different definitions in England. A public school in England is a private school. In the United States a public school is a state school and private schools are denominational schools. In Newfoundland I guess we do have a public system operating within a denominational framework.

As to a referendum I would have to give some thought to that. I think it would be a government decision and I would not want to speculate on what might be the advantages and disadvantages of that. I would have to think about that a little more than I have in the last minute. I think an issue like this is a very sensitive issue. You have entrenched constitutional rights, so I am not sure that a way to resolve any disagreements about the future of the system - as I said, in the past we've been able to change the system through consensus and accommodation. It has changed many times.

In the member's definition of public school we had a public school system in Newfoundland from 1836 to 1843, I think, where we had just one set of school boards, one system. Then in 1843 the split was a dual split, and in 1874 - 1876 the non-Catholics split. So we have had a public school system in that sense.

MS. VERGE: Okay. If I might interject. I am enjoying the minister's history lesson but I have a very short amount of time and I have a lot of other questions.

DR. WARREN: Okay.

MS. VERGE: But thank you.

DR. WARREN: Thank you.

MS. VERGE: Our current denominational education system provided for by the Constitution is being carried out in such a way - some would argue, dictated by the Constitution; there are others who would differ - as to exclude people. Currently many citizens of our Province are deemed ineligible to stand for school board election. Only adherents to eight Christian denominations which have constitutional rights in education are eligible to stand for school board election. Others, other Christians, people professing no religious adherence, people of other religions, are excluded. How does the minister feel about this and how may they be included, if there is not a constitutional amendment?

DR. WARREN: We have the most denominational system in Canada, as the member knows. We have probably the only system in Canada that does not have a system for all others. All of our schools are denominational schools. In some provinces you have a majority school and a minority school. But in Newfoundland all of our schools are denominational. A few private schools, but we do not have a system for others.

In a sense the system discriminates - and I use that word advisedly - against non-Christians and nonreligious. The basis of the system is that parents have the right to choose the education for their children and if you grant these rights to certain denominations, I guess my view, and this is an issue that the government has not addressed, I am speaking now quite frankly government certainly does not address these issues. My view is that the system discriminates against non-christians and non-religious, in that they do not have the rights that others have. They do not have the rights to attend schools, certain schools that others have, others have prior rights, let us put it that way, and you know, that has been a matter of concern for me in the last two or three years and we have looked at ways of changing that.

One of course, is to establish another system for non-adherents and that is not in my view, a reasonable option in this Province at the present time with our limited resources, with our declining school enrolments, with our small schools, the establishment of another school system for others, for non-adherents to the present system is not a viable option, so I think we have to look at other ways of doing it and -

MS. VERGE: But what are some of the options? Is anything achievable short of Constitutional amendment?

DR. WARREN: Yes. I believe that even today there is sensitivity to the rights of non-adherents, non-christians and non-religious. Some school boards have moved now to make it possible for persons to run for school boards. My preference would be, and again this is not government policy and I should not perhaps be getting into areas where we do not have policy, but my preference would be to open up the school system to grant to non-christians and non-religious greater rights in selected areas, certainly the right to choose schools of their choice, the right to become involved in school board elections, the right to run for membership on boards. I know this is a sensitive issue, I know I am discussing issues now with a substantial division of opinion in the Province, but my preference would be to move in that direction.

The integrated board for example in St. John's, makes it possible for any person, irrespective of his religious background to run for membership on the school board and they elect a number at large to represent - this is not an issue in many parts of Newfoundland and Labrador but it is an issue of principle, that is why I address it as an issue of principle.

MS. VERGE: But the minister has not answered my question about what alternatives are there to include these people and I would suggest there are a growing number of people who do not align themselves with any of the eight christian denominations with constitutional rights. They are now excluded. They are not allowed to run for school board election, they are sometimes turned down by the closest school to their home.

DR. WARREN: I understand that and as a member, the Vice-Chair, who was a Minister of Education, I remember her comments on this some years ago because she was asked this same question over and over, and without being disrespectful, very few changes occurred in her period as minister, and I am sure she personally wanted to make some changes but she found out how complex, and I am speculating here, I do not have any inside information but I speculate that the member would like to have made some changes and could not, because of the difficulties.

Now I think changes can occur in two ways, by consensus or by agreement and negotiation, but if they do not occur in that way, I guess as far as I would go now is to say that we should look at other options to guarantee.

MS. VERGE: But what are the other options?

DR. WARREN: Well the other options I suppose, are to try to get some constitutional amendments or I guess an option that government has is to provide some Legislative guarantee of these rights and then let the courts ultimately decide whether or not it is constitutional. You see, I guess what I would say, and we are getting into a bit of history and constitutional law here, which you perhaps are, I know, more versed in than I am, but it seems to me that a constitution that was designed to suit the needs of 1867 and even 1949 may not be appropriate today in education.

MS. VERGE: And what may have been appropriate when I was minister may not be appropriate today. The opportunity to reform may be much greater today.

DR. WARREN: I would say yes, and we, if I might be a little political, in the last two or three years have made some very significant changes in education in the post-secondary system, and it is the government's intention to continue to ensure that we provide an educational system that guarantees quality and equality. I have no doubt that over the next few years - I don't want to in any way threaten or speculate about what the government might do because we haven't considered the report but I think, I really believe, that the time has come for significant changes in our educational system, to focus more on quality education in the classroom. There may have to be some legislative changes.

MS. VERGE: Speaking of which, where is the schools' act that has been promised for lo those many years?

DR. WARREN: For thirteen years the schools' act -

MS. VERGE: Three of which -

DR. WARREN: Three of which you were the minister.

MS. VERGE: Six of which -

DR. WARREN: I am pleased that the member asked that question. When the schools' act was just about ready, about a month ago, along came a certain report, the Royal Commission Report and I guess, after reading that report, even though there are many sections of the act that have no direct connection with the report, I thought we should put The schools' act on hold until the Royal Commission Report was released. I have notified all persons, groups and stakeholders of that. I wrote the DECs and GAC and informed them.

MS. VERGE: I know the groups.

DR. WARREN: I guess events overtook the schools' act and now, despite my disappointment, because there are a lot of sections in the new act which I felt needed to be implemented after thirteen years of trying, it is going to be put on hold for another short period of time.

MS. VERGE: Actually, to be fair to myself, I think the process of revising the schools' act only started the last couple of years I was minister.

DR. WARREN: When was that, by the way? When do you remember?

MS. VERGE: It was 1979 to 1985 is the period I was there.

DR. WARREN: 1979 to 1985. That is how long it has been.

MS. VERGE: No, I think it started about 1983.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to be fair to the other members.

DR. WARREN: Yes.

To conclude, it is on hold for another short period of time. I am not in a position to say how long, but I felt that with the Royal Commission Report dealing with all aspects of education, when I read the report I felt I should not move forward until this report has been discussed and debated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Warren.

MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of short questions for the minister. I will ask him all the questions I have and he can answer them after I am finished.

Could the minister confirm or advise us, with respect to special education, has he given consideration to giving the school boards block funding for special education?

Also, just after Easter - and the minister probably wasn't aware of it any more than a lot of other people on the Avalon Peninsula were - St. George's Day, which has been declared a provincial holiday, I notice there was a lot of confusion or a lot of concern about this particular St. George's Day which was celebrated on a Monday after the Easter holidays, for some reason the school was open because the actual day was during the Easter recess. Can the minister advise us as to how this confusion came about because I think it was most unfortunate, as one parent anyhow. I am just wondering if it was legal the way it happened and I am concerned as to whether the school board took the action without getting legal advice on that particular day?

DR. WARREN: The first question deals with the grant system. I want to advise the member that we are reviewing the grant system totally. We have, as I said, next year another $12 million to put into the maintenance and operation of schools. This is a very substantial increase and most of that money is going to go to boards in the Province that have been disadvantaged in the past as a result of the school tax, areas that you represent where there is criticism of the school tax system. We not only eliminated that system and replaced that money but we added another $9 million for this year, nine months, and $12 million, that is $12 million for the school year. That gave us an opportunity to look at the whole grant system and to ensure there is greater equity. The first principle is to provide more money for areas that have greater needs and that in the past were disadvantaged.

By the way in rural Newfoundland, as you know, there was less money from the school tax so we will, in the new grant system, attempt to address that inequity and provide more money guaranteeing every board at least what they would have got from the school tax. We are going to increase substantially the funding for school boards in rural Newfoundland. That is the first principle in the new grant system. We are looking at block funding. We have talked with the school boards about block funding. If you use the formula to give block funding to a board then they have a lot of flexibility. If they can save money in one area they can use it in another. Now, I know this is (inaudible) at the present time but looking at the whole block funding I am not sure you can do it for all of special education because we have 1000 special education teachers. That is off the top of my head, and you would not want to do that in block funding. You want to pay teachers in accordance with the scale but I can see an area like student assistants - we are now increasing the funding for student assistants. This is another thing I could have mentioned at the beginning, we have reclassified student assistants. We have increased the funding for student assistants from up to $4.8 million and now we are looking at the possibility, with school boards, of using an objective formula to grant school boards that amount of money and let them decide whether they hire people short-term or long-term. It went up from $3.5 to $4.8 million this year. This is in the freeze and I am pleased with this. In the freeze we have reclassified student assistants and increased the vote from $3.5 to $4.8 million. Now here is an area where we are exploring with school boards the possibility of using an objective formula based on need for student assistants, and to grant them a global amount of money and let them decide how to spend these funds. I think that is one area where we are looking at global funding. We have not looked at transportation because that is difficult but I think the global funding approach has some real advantages and we are examining these at the present time.

Now, on the confusion - you have your ear to the ground, I think, as you normally do, I might say to the member. I got a couple of calls on the confusion that day. The night before a person called me and said: my husband is in hospital but I thought I should call you to find out if school is open. He knows you but I do not know you and I want to see if school is open tomorrow. I tried to explain that the school year is determined by statute and school boards have the right within these to decide on opening or closing and holidays.

I am pleased to say that in many cases the boards have gotten together on it. They now try to close and open at Christmas and in the new year and at Easter at the same time, but there are still some holidays on which one board decides to have a holiday and another not to. I think the only statutory holiday that school boards must observe is November 11. They must observe that.

I would encourage boards to do what you inferred in your question, and that is try to get together and have basically the same holidays, for a variety of reasons. I gather in St. John's the two boards are consulting each other on holidays.

Easter and Christmas they have the same, but on St. George's day I got the feedback you got - confusion.

MR. WARREN: One final question to the minister, if you do not mind, Mr. Chairman.

The minister spoke about the elimination of school tax. I think I might have asked the minister the question in the Legislature some time ago, but I do not think I got a fair answer from him, or a correct answer, in my estimation.

In my district, from Rigolet to Nain, in those five communities there is no school tax. There has been no school tax because the provincial government gets a grant in lieu of taxes from the federal government and directs it to the school boards through The Native People's Agreement. This was helping things in place of the school tax.

The minister is going to give school boards x number of dollars to offset the school tax that was soon to be collected throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Is the minister going to say to the federal government now that this money that you are giving under The Native People's Agreement, which I think is going to expire in 1993, now can be used for other essential purposes in those designated communities, and as we have said in the Legislature, we will now replace this with our new tax system because we have brought in the personal income tax. It has been increased to offset this cost and everything else. If not, I would just like for the minister to clarify that.

DR. WARREN: I do not think it has any impact on the federal funding. In the case of Labrador East Integrated and the Roman Catholic School Board for Labrador, what we are going to do is provide them for operation and maintenance through the new grant system at least the amount from the provincial government that the boards that had the highest collections in school taxes got.

I have the figures here, but I will not get into them, but there were some school districts in the Province getting $100 and maybe Labrador East - I would like to have the figures. Perhaps if you want me to get them I can - in Labrador East I do not know what it was getting precisely from the school tax, but it was much less than St. John's. St. John's was getting - the last figure I saw for 1980 was perhaps $380 a year from the school tax per student. Labrador East was probably getting -

MR. WARREN: One hundred and forty?

DR. WARREN: I think I should look it up, because the member asked a very good question and it illustrates how the new system will work.

Do you have the figures for Labrador East - the school tax? I have some of them here. The name of the school tax authority in Labrador, Central Labrador, Labrador East, in 1990 - just look at the difference what the boards were getting from school taxes. That board was getting $177 and the average for the Province was $231; that was in 1990 now, the last year for which I have figures. St. John's was getting $376; so the difference was $200 per student per year between the Central Labrador School Tax Authority and the St. John's School Tax Authority.

What we are going to do with the new system is bring the amounts for Central Labrador, including the Coast of Labrador, at least up to St. John's. So these boards are going to get, from the new tax system - from the general revenues which are collected from income tax and payroll tax and so on - double what they got from the government for operation and maintenance of schools.

MR. WARREN: Okay. So is that is on top of the agreement -

DR. WARREN: Those federal amounts will continue to be negotiated.

MR. WARREN: On top of what they are getting now presently under the native peoples agreement?

DR. WARREN: Yes. They will get additional money over and above - the agreement won't be taken into consideration in levelling up Labrador schools. The agreement will be set aside and that will be additional. We are looking at negotiating another agreement. What we will do is level up Labrador and perhaps they will get for the operation and maintenance of schools nearly double what they are getting at the present time from the school tax.

MR. WARREN: If that is the case, Mr. Minister, I am sure Mr. McLean will be quite pleased to know what you've just said. Because if that is the case they are going to be extremely happy.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Warren, of all the decisions that we've made politically in the last year, outside St. John's in particular, the support for this change and for the new money, I must tell you that I have had more support for this levelling up. People felt that when we eliminated the school tax all the government could do this year, a tough year, was to replace the school tax money. We are adding $12 million. Rural Newfoundland will get $12 million - most of it will go to rural school boards - more for operation and maintenance than they would have gotten from the school tax next year.

MR. WARREN: Yes. But you are saying that they will get practically almost double what they are getting now and -

DR. WARREN: Well, for school board operation and maintenance -

MR. WARREN: Right.

DR. WARREN: - in Labrador, I do not know what the figures were last year. But they were only getting (Inaudible).

MR. WARREN: Okay. But it will not affect the native peoples' funding that is already agreed on?

DR. WARREN: The native peoples funding is over and above that.

MR. WARREN: Okay.

DR. WARREN: They will get from the government very much more for the operation and maintenance of schools. We did not this year. That is a very significant increase in funding for operation and maintenance of schools, especially for rural Newfoundland.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Warren. Mr. Walsh.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, as opposed to breaking with what we have been doing all night, things are going very well. Personally, again, tonight I would like to finish this Department if at all possible. We are willing to carry on with what we are doing currently. Hopefully around 9:45 p.m., if that is a feeling, if we want to finish at 10:00 p.m., we could switch over to the actual estimates. If not, around that time if it looks like we can do it around then, or someone's in full flight and we want to hold on for a little bit after ten to get through the actual numbers, I just wanted to say that we are more than willing to carry on with the format we are following, with the intentions of hopefully finishing tonight.

I mentioned to the minister earlier that I apologized, and to the staff - unfortunately it was prior to my colleagues from the other side of the House being here - that it is our intention to hopefully deal with this Department tonight. So we are going to carry on with what we have been doing and allow our colleagues from the other side to keep going with their questions so we can deal with the estimates.

DR. WARREN: I talked to our members here and we are all prepared to answer any questions you have and stay.

MR. WALSH: Okay, fine.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Thank you. My information is that instead of an increase in revenue of $12 million, as the minister is claiming, there will be an increase of $1.8 million. I would like the minister to take us through the school board revenue for 1991-1992 by category. The operating grants from the Department of Education, the bus transportation funding, capital funding, equalization grants and school tax revenue. Then give us information on the revenue split for 1992-1993. My information is that when you do a full assessment of revenue of school boards in 1991-1992, and then if you project revenue under the proposed new arrangement for 1992-1993, the difference is far short of $12 million.

Mr. Smart is shaking his head, so I would call upon the minister and Mr. Smart to give me an itemized accounting of the comparison to support the claim of the $12 million extra.

DR. WARREN: I anticipated that question so I have a few statistics. The total gross expenditure on education in 1991-1992 is $778 million, gross. It is going up to $826 million.

MS. VERGE: Yes, if I might interject. Teachers' salaries -

DR. WARREN: I will get to that, I have the salaries.

MS. VERGE: - amount to the bulk of spending on education.

DR. WARREN: I have that broken down here.

MS. VERGE: But as everyone here involved in education understands, the accounting for teachers' salaries is done separately.

DR. WARREN: Yes. I will get to that.

MS. VERGE: When I was talking about revenue I was talking about revenue other than teachers' salaries, which actually are paid directly by the Department of Education. I am talking about revenue for the salaries of other personnel and to meet other operating requirements, as well as capital funding.

DR. WARREN: As I was saying, the total gross educational expenditure last year was $778 million. It is going to $826 million, which is a 6 per cent increase. That includes the money that we are this year putting in to replace the school tax.

MS. VERGE: But that's for post-secondary and adult as well as for -

DR. WARREN: Yes. I will get to elementary if you just give me a minute.

MS. VERGE: Okay, good.

DR. WARREN: We have a 6 per cent increase in the gross educational budget for next year over last year. That is with the freeze. That includes, however, the money to replace the school tax. So the new money - if you took out the school tax replacement money - in the education budget this year is 3 per cent increase. I have the figures for Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan is cutting its education budget, Nova Scotia is cutting its education budget. We, even if you took out the school tax money, are increasing the education budget in a freeze year, a very difficult year, by 3 per cent.

Now let's get to primary, elementary and secondary. The amount for teachers' salaries last year was $409 million, and this year it is $418 million. That is a 2.2 per cent increase in the vote for teachers' salaries. Even though we have a freeze we have a 2.2 per cent increase. I do not think the public realizes this. That's for steps in the teachers who are moving up. So there are probably 2,000 teachers who would get a step increase next year.

The total increase in primary, elementary and secondary - that is the total including teachers' salaries - is from $534 million to $574 million.

Let's take the school board operations. Now I am getting to where the member asked as I am delighted to provide this data. This year the school board operations, including the school tax, are going from $82 million to $118 million.

MS. VERGE: Wait now. Just for clarification.

DR. WARREN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: That figure, $118 million this year.

DR. WARREN: Includes the school tax replacement.

MS. VERGE: Oh, when you say "this year" you mean 1992-1993.

DR. WARREN: Eighty-two million dollars last year in school board operations, 1991-1992. It is going to $118 million in 1992-1993. Now we will go the estimates, because I think that's where the member was asking me to go through the estimates.

MS. VERGE: Just so we have apples and apples, what was the revenue from school tax to school boards in 1991-1992?

DR. WARREN: In 1991-1992 you add to the $82 million, about $30 million went to the school tax.

MR. ROBERT SMART: One of the problems you'll have here is -

MS. VERGE: Yes, I know, the fiscal year and the school year are different.

MR. SMART: - comparing government's fiscal year to the school year.

MS. VERGE: Yes, okay. I'm talking provincial government fiscal years, 1991-1992.

DR. WARREN: About $30 million. So you add the $30 million to the -

MS. VERGE: Is it $30 million or $35 million?

DR. WARREN: Well, $35 million minus the amount that is used for administration.

MS. VERGE: But what was the net that the revenue -

DR. WARREN: About $30 million last year, 1991-1992.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Now, in the new Budget year, 1992-1993, there will still be school tax for three months.

DR. WARREN: The school tax for the calendar year, half the year, and there will be school tax for the fiscal year, three months.

MS. VERGE: Yes, so what is the estimate for school tax revenue in this new year, 92-93?

DR. WARREN: I would say for three months about a quarter of $32 million net, after you pay for the expenses so whatever a quarter of that - $7 million or $8 million; so they would get that. Now what we have done in the budget, is increase - let us go through each of the sub-heads. Operating is frozen because we froze the grants per student so the amount is $39 million and is only a slight increase.

MS. VERGE: The minister just lost me. Earlier, the minister said that operating grants to school boards last year were $82 million -

DR. WARREN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: - and in the new year -

DR. WARREN: This year $118 million.

MS. VERGE: -$118 operating grants plus school tax replacement.

DR. WARREN: That includes the school tax replacement.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: That's right. I think it is easier to understand when one goes through the sheet indicating the headings. In operating grants, we have a frozen amount, that is the amount per student, $280.00.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Last year there were operating grants labelled as such and there was equalization labelled as such.

DR. WARREN: Yes, that is here too.

MS. VERGE: How much was last year's equalization?

DR. WARREN: I am getting to that in a minute. I am going through the headings in order on page 166 -

MS. VERGE: Okay, I have a different -

DR. WARREN: You referred me I think to 166?

MS. VERGE: No, I didn't actually, I had a separate list here.

DR. WARREN: Well, page 166, the official amount, the operating grants to school boards were frozen so it is about 39.2 million in 91-92, and 39.5 million in 92-93, no change. Student assistance I mentioned earlier, we are going to put that into operating grants, that went from $3.5 million to $4.8 million; that is the reclassification of the 400 student assistants and even though many people did not get an increase this year, student assistants are one of the two or three groups who would get an increase because of reclassification.

Now the complex one is the next one. Last year, it was $10 million for equalization, it went to $45 million this year. That $45 million includes from the government the $10 million that we had last year in equalization, that leaves $35 million; that $35 million is made up of about $27 million to replace the school tax for nine months, because that is three-quarters plus $8.8 or $9 million to level up, and the $8.8 million, that is about $9 million for nine months is about a million a month, which means that when that is annualized, that $45 million, if that were for the whole year, would be up to forty-five plus - probably forty-six - more than that because this is for nine months, so this year, for nine months we are increasing the equalization - another way to look at it is from $10 million, if you took out the nine months $27 million or $28 million for tax equalization replacement, you have then a difference of $8 million or $9 million for levelling up, and of course, transportation; what we did last year was, I think I can tell the public through the House, that last year we were able to generate some savings in transportation.

We went out and talked to school boards and I must pay tribute to the boards. We provided some incentives. School boards last year started to share busing; there were six areas in this Province, where the department officials, and I pay tribute to them, went out and met with the boards, rationalized the transportation system and there were some savings and this year, in fact yesterday morning met with the school board and we will be looking this year to save perhaps up to a half million dollars as a result of rationalizing the school transportation system.

We have heard as a department, and I think perhaps some of it is myth, we have heard substantial criticisms of the proliferation of buses, the numbers of buses in certain areas that are denominational buses going in different directions. The Department in these tough times has decided to address this problem. I assure the public that this year we are going to be very pro-active in this area to ensure that we get better value for the school bus money that we are spending.

MS. VERGE: Of course, this started during the previous administration. I know in the Corner Brook area, the area that I represent, there was a joint Integrated-RC school board bus that has been established about five, six, eight years.

DR. WARREN: Yes, in some areas this has been there for some time.

MS. VERGE: What about capital?

DR. WARREN: Capital. When we took power three years ago today the amount was $20 million. It had been $20 million for perhaps two or three or four years under the former administration. One of the first things that the government did was to grant $21 million extra over a three year period, for capital. We gave $7 million in the first year of the three grant, plus the amount for insurance, which is higher - I think it is a $1.5 million this year. So we have since 1989 increased the former administration's capital grants by $21 million.

MS. VERGE: But there was a pulling back for 1992-1993.

DR. WARREN: 1992-1993, no, that was a three year commitment to put $21 million more into it. We said that in the Budget.

MS. VERGE: Yes, but for the new year (Inaudible) -

DR. WARREN: It's back to $20 million.

MS. VERGE: Yes, exactly.

DR. WARREN: Yes, it is at $20 million.

MS. VERGE: So there's a $7 million cut from last year to this year.

DR. WARREN: No. The amount was a three year grant to give $21 million extra to capital. We said that in the Budget. Let me add one other thing which I am delighted to speak to, and I know Mr. Walsh is watching the time.

This government decided a year ago to develop a long-range plan for capital construction. We will have in place within the next year a long-range plan for schools in this Province, looking at the Royal Commission report, and we are doing an assessment of all the buildings, so that we can put in place a ten year plan. This year we are going to focus on completing that long-term capital.

Maybe the government has to look at long-term borrowing. In the past most of the capital construction in school buildings has been short-term. Boards have borrowed short-term. Perhaps we need to put together a ten or fifteen year capital plan and go to the markets and get long-term funding, build schools now and have them, particularly with the Royal Commission report. So this year we are doing that in addition to carrying on with the program.

MS. VERGE: So that is a hint.

DR. WARREN: That's not a hint.

MS. VERGE: One hint about -

DR. WARREN: That's public knowledge.

MS. VERGE: A scoop for The Evening Telegram. Okay. I have five more topics, and I will try to be brief. The minister could go on and on because he is so knowledgeable -

DR. WARREN: I love it, I love it!

MS. VERGE: Yes, I know.

DR. WARREN: Especially the good news.

MS. VERGE: But since Mr. Walsh is so impatient to get finished I will try to be brief.

Early childhood education.

DR. WARREN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: Studies long ago demonstrated the value of good education of children at the earliest possible stage, pointing out that the prime years of learning are the years from birth to age five, the pre-school years, the years that precede our present schooling. We have heard about some community initiated, largely volunteer run ad hoc head start programs, pre-school programs. Day care has developed slowly and doesn't accommodate a very large percentage of pre-school children.

There has been no recent mention by the minister of initiatives in the field of early childhood education and I am wondering what is going on. What priority does the minister and this administration attach to early childhood education?

DR. WARREN: I will give a relatively short answer. I think it is an important issue and I regret that in these tough times we do not have the money to do in pre-school what needs to be done in this Province and in this country. We have a kindergarten program. I think New Brunswick is the last province to develop a kindergarten program.

MS. VERGE: PEI.

DR. WARREN: PEI may have one now. We have had a kindergarten program for some time but some provinces have not had it. I regret that we do not have more money to put into initiatives, at least pilot initiatives in pre-school. I think the early years are critical years, particularly for disadvantaged students. I saw a film last night and I saw examples of what can be done. Burnt Islands is an excellent example of where a pre-school program is in place and it has done wonders for young people. Mr. Ramsay you know as it is in your district and you and I visited there. Burnt Islands are really achieving extremely well, thanks largely to the school board there, the parents and the principal who have done things not only in the regular grades, like providing food, breakfast, and hot lunches and so on, but they have started to work with parents.

There are two challenges in education. If Dr. Kitchen were to say to me tomorrow: if you had $100 million where would you spend it? I would look at the two extremes. Now, I am speculating here. I would look at adult education because I think we have a major problem in this Province and in this country in adult under-education and illiteracy. I would put some additional money there and I would put some additional money into pre-school. We just do not have the money and the former administration did not have the money.

MS. VERGE: I am glad to hear the minister say that.

DR. WARREN: I want to pay tribute to boards. I do not want to cut you off Madam Vice-Chair but I think the boards are doing a lot of good work already in this area with limited dollars and I think after we get past this period of fiscal restraint I would hope that when additional monies become available in the next few years we would put more into areas of the Province which are more disadvantaged. Again, I do not think we can afford for a long time a universal pre-school program. I would start with areas where I know it will help. School boards are doing some of that now. I think the potential of that, to increase retention, improve reading, and have parents involved is tremendous. I am not tantalising again but we have asked the Royal Commission to address that issue and it will be speaking to that issue as well. I do not think I will be giving away any secrets when I say that the Royal Commission Report will have something to say about the initiative in this area.

MS. VERGE: It is good to hear the minister acknowledge the critical importance of -

DR. WARREN: And vital importance.

MS. VERGE: - a good learning environment and good supports in the early years but we need more than lip service being paid to this issue. I know the minister does not have an extra $100,000.

DR. WARREN: A $100 million.

MS. VERGE: I am sorry, $100 million. He probably does have an extra $100,000.

DR. WARREN: Yes, I do.

MS. VERGE: But the minister nevertheless is presiding over a huge budget. What is it? Roughly over $800 million. Surely the minister and the government can make moves to foster the Burnt Islands experience. Coxes Cove is another community where, thanks to the initiative of an elementary school principal and former late departed fired mayor there has been a beneficial early childhood education program with a co-operative community, parent-school social services effort. How can the department, foster, encourage, reward, and support that kind of experience?

DR. WARREN: We are supporting it. Your point is well taken if I might add that comment. We are supporting it. We have a consultant now who does work in pre-school and early childhood. She is beginning to promote it with school boards and with consultants.

MS. VERGE: If she has been there for twelve years -

DR. WARREN: Look, I am going to go back and say: Why did you not do it in seventeen years? In three years we have made more changes in education than the previous ten years, other than what the minister did with the high school program. We have made fantastic changes, and in this area of pre-school I assure you we have done some things already.

MS. VERGE: Like what?

DR. WARREN: I think the only way we can get additional money now is to reallocate. Where would the member say we are going to take money from? Let me ask the member -

MS. VERGE: Wait until after the next election when I am back in the Cabinet.

DR. WARREN: No, do not cop out that way. You tell me where you would take money from in education to put it in.

MS. VERGE: I get to ask the questions tonight. The minister has to answer.

DR. WARREN: Oh, there is the easy way out.

I will tell the member that we are going to focus -

MS. VERGE: I had six years of answering.

DR. WARREN: We are going to focus on pre-school.

MS. VERGE: How?

DR. WARREN: We have some initiatives going.

MS. VERGE: What?

DR. WARREN: When the economy improves -

MS. VERGE: When?

DR. WARREN: - this government will do what is right. We will not wait and wait and wait and blame others. We will face up to it and do it.

MS. VERGE: Good.

DR. WARREN: We will not wait seventeen years before we have a good pre-school program, I can tell you.

MS. VERGE: What will the minister do in the next six months?

DR. WARREN: We are going to continue what we have been doing.

MS. VERGE: Which is what?

DR. WARREN: Which is promoting the idea, working with school boards and encouraging principals to do what the principal in -

MS. VERGE: What kind of encouragement?

DR. WARREN: Monetary, if we can reallocate funds.

MR. RAMSAY: The Burnt Islands experience did have some monetary issues through community-based fund-raising, specifically for that.

DR. WARREN: They did community-based fund-raising, but we have put some money into initiatives in a certain community on the South Coast, I do not want to mention. We have with social services put some money in. We have done some interesting things. We think that is the next area, and perhaps we can reallocate. Perhaps we can have some savings.

If the member does not give me the suggestions now, maybe after she can tell me where we can cut other areas to put some money into pre-school. I would like to get those suggestions.

MS. VERGE: Good.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: Mr. Smart gives me an interesting suggestion. We are giving $12 million extra a year to school boards. Perhaps school boards who consider this a priority - and perhaps we could have suggested to boards that they might use that $12 million, which is a major increase in school board operation and maintenance money - maybe some of that will be used by school boards in this area to help promote pre-school.

MS. VERGE: Given the tremendous importance of early childhood education, would the minister not consider taking a stronger initiative to make sure that the tremendously beneficial experiences of Coxes Cove and Burnt Islands happen all over the Province?

DR. WARREN: Might I say that of all the things we have done in the last three years, I am pleased that we asked The Commission of Enquiry to do a total assessment of the educational system. It is one of the most significant moves that this government has made. We just did not say - and we did not sit back - we just did not say: We are good enough, and we will add a little bit here. This government said: Let's spend some money and do a thorough assessment, because our educational system has to be better.

I can assure the member that the government will be acting on the recommendations in due course of that report. It is not going to be easy to get new money. What we may have to do is reallocate funds from areas of "lower" priority in addition to getting new monies to higher. That is one of the areas where I think as soon as new money is available, or we can reallocate, we will be doing more work.

I think your point is well taken.

MS. VERGE: When the minister discussed the Burnt Islands experience, he talked about the importance of early childhood education. He talked about the importance of reading when he singled out two sectors. He wishes to devote more effort to young children, pre-school children and adults, and in each case he talked about the importance of reading. How does the minister feel about the under funding problems being experienced by the Province's public libraries? How does he feel about the fact that the short changing reached the point last year where most of our libraries, which are shoestring operations with only one or two part-time staff, had to close during the three-week vacation period, and for up to a week when employees were off sick and that this year the problem has degenerated to the point where all libraries in the Province will close for an additional two weeks and that means all the employees of the libraries board from the executive director down will be off the payroll for two weeks. What is the significance of these reductions, what is the significance of the closure of public libraries to learning, to education?

DR. WARREN: May I go back to the member's comments? I think in the House it was said that we have increased the funding to the Public Libraries Board over last year, it is not enough money but all agencies of government and all government departments must live with this period of fiscal restraint, and as I said earlier, this Budget in this Province, at this point in time, is looked at as perhaps one of the best budgets in the country. If you were to look at what is happening across Canada today, I have the feeling -

MS. VERGE: But my question is, what does the minister feel about the public libraries closures?

DR. WARREN: May I answer the question? She carries on and gives all these preliminary views about cuts and everything else in libraries.

We, this year are going through a difficult time, but I tell you if you were in other provinces in this country you would realize that when they cut back funding, and I have it for all of the provinces now, I can give the member if she likes, what the cuts are across Canada, it is a difficult year. I make these comments because the Libraries Board has to live like all of us, with fiscal restraint, even though they had more money, they decided how they were going to use that money. It would have been better if they had found another way to do it, I mean nobody wants to close the library -

MS. VERGE: What way -

DR. WARREN: May I speak? May I speak?

I do not know how. I am not responsible for the Libraries Board. You asked my opinion as a Minister of Education. I wish they had found another way to do it, but they must live with fiscal restraint and they made the decision for whatever reason and I guess the minister responsible will get the information for the member in a couple of days as to why they made this decision.

We, last year, had to make some very tough decisions that included layoffs. This year, thank God, we do not have to do that; we have enough funding with the freeze to maintain staff and many agencies are doing that, but the Libraries Board for some reason decided to do something else. The minister responsible, in the next day or so, will report to the House or the Premier will, on why they made that decision and how they arrived at it. Nobody wants to close libraries, nobody wants to close schools, hospitals or anything, but I guess that is what the Libraries Board did. It is an arms length agency; it got its funding and I gather it got a little more than last year's and it made its decision. I am afraid I cannot give much more than that.

MS. VERGE: Okay. The Marine Institute: within the past year, the government by legislation absorbed the Marine Institute into Memorial University. At the time the minister made a public commitment that despite the loss of autonomy of the Marine Institute, the government would provide directed funding to the Marine Institute branch of Memorial University, I suppose similar to the directed funding to the medical school of Memorial University. What is actually provided for in the estimates? It is not clear from the headings, and what is happening now?

DR. WARREN: Affiliating the Marine Institute with Memorial University is one of the most forward looking things that we have done as a government. It is a proposal that appeared to have some problems initially, but it is the right decision. I am more convinced than ever when I hear what the university and the institute are planning for the future in research and development, in food technology. It is the right decision, and I am delighted that the government after suggestions - in fact I might say that there were proposals from the former administration to do it. They never got around to doing it, but I know that they knew it was the right thing.

MS. VERGE: No, I have to take exception to that.

DR. WARREN: I have read the papers.

MS. VERGE: Well civil servants might have written papers, but I can tell you as a minister of the former administration I strongly opposed that notion and I still oppose it.

DR. WARREN: I know. They considered it and they didn't do it. We did it because it is the right decision. It is economically responsible in terms of research and development and training. We can have a university here which is the most marine oriented university in this country.

MS. VERGE: What about the directed budget?

DR. WARREN: I will get to the budget. You want it both ways. You want to make your own comments. With respect, Mr. Chairman, we have taken an initiative which is visionary and Memorial could become the most marine oriented university not only in Canada but in North America. I am pleased to say in Australia the marine institute and the University of New South Wales are now affiliating - merging is the word they use - in the same way that we are affiliating here. The Marine will get a separate budget, we have guaranteed the Marine a separate budget, and that budget amount is being decided now. We are in the process, Mr. Smart, in deciding on the amount, and the budget will be a separate budget as the medical school budget is.

MS. VERGE: Okay, thank you. The next question: will the minister alter the arrangement for funding Grenfell College of Memorial University by similarly providing a separate budget to Grenfell College?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: No, the funding of Grenfell is part of the university budget. There was a special arrangement at marine for various reasons. They were independent, they did merge. Grenfell has traditionally been part of memorial and it is better to, instead of setting up separate administrations and separate business and separate bureaucracies to control budgets, it is better to have them work closely together.

MS. VERGE: But surely the case is stronger for having a separate budget for Grenfell College than it is for the medical school or the Marine Institute.

DR. WARREN: The Marine Institute is a separate issue. It started out initially as a separate institution.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me intervene here now. We have allowed this segment to go on for some time. Do any of the other members wish to step in?

MR. WALSH: I have only one question, Mr. Chairman. Should we anticipate many more? We were hoping to around 9:50 -

MS. VERGE: I have two or three more questions, but we don't have enough time. I have asked fairly precise questions. For example I just asked a simple question of a separate budget for the Marine Institute, and the minister gave a discourse on the merger of the two institutions.

DR. WARREN: Good news.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have a couple more?

MS. VERGE: I have a couple more questions, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

AN HON. MEMBER: Short ones or long ones?

MS. VERGE: I would like to come back to Grenfell College. How does the minister feel about the idea of spinning off Grenfell College as an autonomous university? In our Province we have only one university. There are two campuses: the St. John's campus and the Grenfell College campus. Courses are given through community colleges and so on and so on. Nova Scotia has the other extreme. I think Nova Scotia has at last count thirteen universities with a much smaller territory and only twice our population. There are many of us in Western Newfoundland who feel that Grenfell College has been short-changed through being a satellite - out of sight, out of mind - branch of Memorial University.

While the current principal was hired with a commitment from the president, Dr. Arthur May, to preside over the expansion of Grenfell College, to add full degree programs in select arts and science disciplines, the recent signals have indicated the opposite. How does the minister feel about the idea of separating Grenfell College from Memorial University and making it the Province's second autonomous degree granting university?

DR. WARREN: The trend across the country of course is to have more cooperation and coordination and not to split institutions but to coordinate. In fact, I think there is some advantage in this Province. The next stage in post-secondary is perhaps to have the University and the colleges work much more closely. I can see in Corner Brook, for example, the college and the University work more closely in student services - I'll get to your question in a minute - in housing. There are a lot of areas where perhaps it would be to economic advantage at least, and some other advantages, to having further coordination.

There may come a time when Grenfell, or the Province and the University, may wish to have a second university. But in the short-term, I guess for a variety of reasons, not all financial, that I think the present arrangement - Mr. McCormick tells me that Grenfell has a separate budget. It's worked out with Memorial. But it is not given by the government, it is part of Memorial's budget.

MS. VERGE: No, but let's not mislead anyone now.

DR. WARREN: But they have a budget.

MS. VERGE: Grenfell has never had the kind of separate budget that you are saying will be given to the Marine Institute or that has been given to the medical school. Grenfell College is a division of the University.

DR. WARREN: Yes it is.

MS. VERGE: It is the same as the business school, the school of social work, the English faculty. Because it is 400 miles away from the St. John's administration it's consistently gotten short-changed. The former administration at Grenfell were thrifty and basically put up with consistent short-changing. That's caught up with them.

DR. WARREN: I do not know the details as the member had, but I do not think out of sight, out of mind - I think the University administration and Grenfell have worked together. They developed an arts' school there, developed new programs. This idea that it is being short-changed, I would leave that to others to judge. My impression is that hasn't happened.

The main question is, what about a second university for Newfoundland and Labrador? In the short-term my reaction would be no. I think there are some advantages to having the kind of relationship that exists. Degree granting institutions in Canada come in all levels. The ones that are well-established with a built up reputation and are well-thought of, students go there, they are proud to go there. Certainly Grenfell is moving in that direction. I think it would be premature, to give you a direct answer, to set up another university right now. I would like to see the evolution take place and perhaps down the road a second university could be developed in the Province. But it is premature to do that in my view at the present time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge, Mr. Warren would like to make an intervention.

MR. WARREN: I have one short question to the minister. I believe during the election campaign, one of the many promises was a central Newfoundland campus. I guess the minister won't say the promise was broken but it sure is delayed. Could the minister give us the status on the central Newfoundland college?

DR. WARREN: I am pleased that the member raised that question. It has been a difficult decision for the government because we had every intention of moving ahead with that. But when we hit the financial crisis that exists we felt it was better to fund existing facilities and to strengthen our first-year offerings in parts of the Province. We put first-year in Labrador West. We implemented it in Burin. What we did was put the idea of a central campus on hold.

I might say that the demands in recent months have been for first-year in other areas of the Province. For example, I've met with delegations from Stephenville, Clarenville, Gander and Carbonear. I think these are the four. I have either met with members of the House or - and by the way, in Carbonear and Clarenville, and I think perhaps in Stephenville too, facilities are in place. So what is happening now is that more and more people from around the Province are arguing that we should put first-year into more sites. In fact, they are arguing that we should have a common first-year so that students can do that first year. Maybe in Labrador. I see that emerging. Do that common first year and then decide whether they want to go to University or go to the Institute and get some credit for that common first-year.

So there are some new demands. Perhaps we need to rethink some aspects of post-secondary. If there are new demands and if we have limited dollars, is it better for us to put it all into one area of the Province for a new campus - and I think the question is now being raised - or should we in these difficult financial times keep central on hold and perhaps expand the first-year offerings? We now have it in Grand Falls, Lewisporte, Burin and Labrador West.

By the way, the results in those centres are excellent. The Burin campus, the students who come out of Burin can compete with any, they do as well as people on campus. They do distance education as well as courses in Burin. People in central in these first-year programs, and in central they are doing some second-year - Grand Falls - these students compete very well when they come on to University. They do as well as if they had been on campus. So perhaps we need to look at this first-year program, a common first year, for other centres including - I know the member is interested in Labrador - perhaps at some time in Labrador East. Maybe we need to examine that possibility too.

It is on hold, Mr. Warren, and will be for another time.

MR. WARREN: Until at least the next election call.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Thank you. In education there has been occupational segregation by sex. Historically women made up a majority of the teaching profession, although the percentage of women in the profession has declined. The last I saw there were about half women and half men. But the power positions have been virtually monopolized by men, with Dr. Turpin-Downey being one of the very few exceptions. We have never had a woman school board superintendent in this Province. We have the kind of percentage of women assistant superintendents as we have women MHAs. The government, pending the Royal Commission Report, obviously is going to move to reduce drastically the number of school boards in the Province. This reorganization will offer a golden opportunity for affirmative action.

When the previous administration reorganized the vocational school system and established community colleges, the government selected two women for CEO positions, Linda Inkpen for the Cabot Institute and Sheila McKinnon-Drover for the Central Newfoundland College. Now, if nature had taken it's course and the people who had dominated the vocational school and college sector previously had had their way, there is no way those two women would have gotten those appointments. Ms. McKinnon-Drover had worked in the primary/elementary/high school system previously. Now, there is no way she would have risen to become a school board superintendent with the way the school board system operates

DR. WARREN: That is a disservice to Ms. McKinnon-Drover.

MS. VERGE: No. It is a disservice to the system that we have. She is an extremely competent community college president. She would be an extremely competent school board superintendent. Given the attitudes and the practices of the school boards and the denominational education system there is no way talent like that would ever make it to the top.

I would like to ask the minister: - I don't want to quibble about details - What does he propose to do in reducing the number of school boards and reorganizing primary/elementary/high school, to ensure that a fair and balanced number of women are appointed to senior administrative positions?

DR. WARREN: The member is going to have to wait to get information on what the government is going to do to reorganize the system. That must await a number of events, as I mentioned earlier.

On the question of affirmative action and gender equity, I have spoken many times in the last while, and she spoke when she was Minister of Education and had an opportunity for years to do something about this, and I don't see any change as a result of her action. It is difficult.

MS. VERGE: I just cited the experience of the post-secondary reorganization.

DR. WARREN: Well, you talked about superintendents. You have mentioned there are no superintendents and so on, and that is what you asked with regard to the elementary/secondary system. She probably tried - and I paid tribute to her on other occasions for her work in gender equity. I think I appreciate what she did and the difficulties she faced. She knew, and I know, particularly in periods of declining enrolments and shrinking school systems, you have collective agreements in place. She found what I found, it is difficult to practice affirmative action to enforce it, to require it, because throughout Canada, even in Ontario, they had some vision of what they could do to increase the number of principals. I think it is disproportionate.

I looked at some figures that Mr. McCormick gave me. In 1991-1992 there are six female assistant superintendents and sixty-two males. The number of male and female principals is also disproportionate, but not the same proportion. There are four times as many males as females. In periods of shrinking school systems, when you have collective agreements in place, we are following procedures. You cannot break the law in order to -

MS. VERGE: But the collective agreements don't govern the superintendent and assistant superintendent positions.

DR. WARREN: Well, we are talking about principals and all the others, most of the positions that are there. You have certain things in place which make affirmative action difficult. I am pleased to say that we have made a little progress in the last couple of years on working with school boards to ensure that they put in place a policy which does provide a better opportunity for female -

MS. VERGE: What kind of results have there been? I'm not aware of the latest statistics.

DR. WARREN: Not much change because of the shrinking school system. Principals, vice-principals and coordinators are part of the collective agreement. When you have people in place and there's very little mobility and you cannot remove people, superintendents or assistant superintendents, you can only attempt to address the problem, which I agree is a problem. I concur with her analysis. It is a problem. You cannot address it by regulation or legislation. Ontario found the same thing.

So what we have tried to do is work with school boards on this. We have had some success. Avalon North Integrated School Board has worked with our consultant on women's issues, Ms. Hopkins, and with the NTA. They are developing policies - I think this is the best example, if I might turn for a minute and ask.... The best example of where they are working towards a policy that assures that school boards provide greater gender equity in the appointment of superintendents. But I would have to admit that it has been very slow. The reasons are obvious. It has been very slow here and very slow across Canada.

I however, I'm pleased to say, that as the minister in the appointments of boards, where I have some flexibility, I think most of the boards are at least half. Now I don't start off with the principle it must be 50-50. But I am thinking of the St. John's boards that we appointed through the college. Memorial University has its first female chair of the Board of Regents. I just appointed a chair of a board of one of the colleges and at least half the members in most cases. When people drop off and resign I want to tell the member that when I solicit nominations, and sometimes I'm soliciting and sometimes they come in, I ask people to nominate two people, if they have, instead of one.

My experience early on was that when I asked for nominations from even boards themselves, quite often the nominations were largely male. What I have done is on the boards taken quite a deliberate action. That is an area where the minister has some discretion. I am pleased to report that we've had some success in (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: Yes, I've noticed that, and I want to publicly congratulate the minister.

DR. WARREN: You've noticed that. It has not been easy though. I think you would probably realize it is not easy. Now I do not know what the next step is in the elementary and secondary system, because we need role models -

MS. VERGE: Yes.

DR. WARREN: - for women in the system.

MS. VERGE: But I am suggesting to the minister that the pending reduction in the number of school boards and accompanying reform of the administration of primary, elementary and high school which will flow out of the Royal Commission report will provide a new opportunity and -

DR. WARREN: Yes. I thank you for the suggestion. We will have a note on that, and we will take whatever action we can to assure that is considered. I think the Avalon North board's experience - it's been slow but their board's experience is that they are going to do what is right in the future. We have a lot of females now, well-educated. A highlight of my career at Memorial, if I might digress a moment, was when teaching a graduate course in educational administration I had more females than males.

MS. VERGE: Where are they today?

DR. WARREN: Some of them are in it. Beverly (Inaudible), the Hope (Inaudible), the Gwen Trembletts, they were in my class. I went in one day to start the year and I had more females than males, and I said: finally, we are getting at least the training. Now the challenge is to make sure that they have equal opportunity at a job. Because I think they should have role models in the school system.

MS. VERGE: Well, three excellent candidates for superintendents of the new amalgamated school boards.

DR. WARREN: You nominate them. You and I will work on that together, okay?

MS. VERGE: Let's do that, okay.

DR. WARREN: Let's work on that.

MS. VERGE: I would like to say to the minister, I think one of the reasons why we have seen an improvement in the split of women and men, in the percentage of women and men on boards to which discretionary cabinet appointments are made, is that the previous administration after an initial period of talking theory and talking good intentions -

DR. WARREN: Thanks to the member.

MS. VERGE: Thanks to Premier Peckford actually. An affirmative action policy was adopted back around 1983 or 1984. The Cabinet, with the Premier's insistence, laid down a firm rule that there had to be half women and half men appointed to all government boards and commissions all in totality, there did not have to be a rigid 50/50 makeup of every single board. There was a lot of resistance to that rule from some of the Cabinet, civil servants, and on down the line. People squawked and said: where can we find competent women but it was amazing to see after a year or two that the women who were chosen or appointed contributed so much and did so well that people were very eager to recommend them for re-appointment.

DR. WARREN: I might add another comment. I have worked very closely with the women's policy office. I have been to Ottawa to meet the minister responsible for the Status of Women of Canada and I have made presentations to them on other initiatives to promote gender equity and I am pleased with some of the developments. We have a long way to go and it is not going to be easy, when you have a shrinking system, to change the administration of the system but I think we must address that problem. I might add one additional comment. What I have tried to do as a minister to on appointments is to appoint other groups who have not been visible in the past. For example, I was delighted to appoint an Innu to the Labrador College Board recently. This was a deliberate move from Sheshatshit to find a person. There are people available who are qualified and sometimes you find them.

We have tried to move to place visible minorities and I have deliberately tried to do that but not very successfully in some parts of the Province. If you note the membership of boards we have also done that. I am pleased to say that in order to enhance accessibility we have appointed to some boards persons who - they do not mind my saying - have physical disabilities, and to whom accessibility is a major issue. I have done that with college boards so it is not just the gender issue. I have tried to, in appointments, appoint people from the broad business community but also from visible minorities and from other groups who have been under represented in the past. I congratulate the Vice-Chair on her initiatives and I feel I am building on her initiatives with what I am doing. I pay tribute to her contribution in the former administration.

MS. VERGE: It seems to me one of the drags, if I might use that word, in the primary, elementary, and high school sector has been the churches. The eight denominations that have power, that have rights, that wield influence and that select school board members obviously are male dominated and they have, I think, been an impediment to the progress of women. I hope I am quoted on that. Does the minister have any strategies for trying to overcome the resistance of the churches to, what he calls gender equity, to the full and equal participation of women in the system?

DR. WARREN: I have not considered strategies for that but I sense a change in school board members. There has been a definite change in the last three or four years.

MS. VERGE: What is the percentage of women school trustees now?

DR. WARREN: More are running. Females in school boards, the integrated is up to 17 per cent.

MS. VERGE: Seventeen?

DR. WARREN: It went from 17 to 23 per cent, a slight improvement.

MS. VERGE: I thought it was 25 the last time I checked.

DR. WARREN: No, that is the Roman Catholic and the Seven Day Adventists are even higher. But there has been a slight move. I am not sure that the department or government can direct that kind of thing. It can encourage it. The best thing is that I think we have very capable women now on many of the boards in the Province. They are getting elected. They are running, and they are very active. I am going to the trustees meeting, I think tomorrow night, and I would say that there are some signs that things are changing.

I am not sure that the Department of Education can direct the churches to do that, but we will do everything possible to encourage greater gender equity in the Province.

MS. VERGE: In all other provinces of Canada, as far as I know - the minister would probably have more accurate information at his fingertips - the percentage of women school trustees is quite high. We, I think, are lagging far, far behind every other province.

DR. WARREN: We are lagging.

MS. VERGE: My impression actually is that women trustees may actually be in the majority in many provinces, but here we have never had as many as -

DR. WARREN: With all agencies.

MS. VERGE: - as 25 per cent women trustees. Why is there that discrepancy?

DR. WARREN: I am sure the reasons are many and varied, and I could speculate, but I think you will find that has been the situation in business corporations, management, business boards, boards of trade and other boards where they sometimes provide for women membership. On many of the boards of this Province that has been the tradition. I think I could speculate, but I will not, as the Minister of Education, on why that has happened. I would like to say that we have to change it.

My approach is that we have to provide for greater gender equity, and I see some signs of change. I do not want to ignore the changes. I went to a school administrators' meeting in Gander just two or three weeks ago to speak - I got some applause - the female administrators there were very visible. They were not as many as males, but I saw more leadership and I am encouraged by that. Rather than trying to legislate this, I think it is happening, and -

MS. VERGE: But it is not happening.

DR. WARREN: It is not happening fast enough -

MS. VERGE: It is not happening period.

DR. WARREN: Well I see some evidence that we get more - where we have discretion, like on the board of governors of the colleges, and boards of the government, we are making that decision. We will do everything possible to encourage school boards to do the same thing.

We think we have some evidence that -

MS. VERGE: But it is not happening in the primary, elementary, high school system.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Ms. Verge.

Mr. Walsh?

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, I am going to attempt at least, now that we have found a common ground between both ministers - former and present - I am a little concerned that also we seem to be building a mutual admiration society between both of them, and I am really concerned what Question Period might be like in the future. They may not ask questions of each other.

I would like, with the Chair's approval and the approval of all the members present, to move the Department of Education, as opposed to by headings - we have touched on virtually everything - I would like to propose a motion that we approve items 1.1.01 through to 3.5.02 inclusive.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Seconded by Mr. Ramsay, the Member for LaPoile.

Is the committee in favour of that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Aye.

MS. VERGE: Nay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister and your staff.

DR. WARREN: Thank you very much. This was a good exchange. I enjoyed it.

MS. VERGE: I would like to say thank you also. I appreciate the comments of the minister, and I appreciate the Chair's handling of the proceedings this evening. I think it went quite well.

DR. WARREN: It is nice to get a compliment from the Vice-Chair.

The committee now stands adjourned.