Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. John Crane, MHA for Harbour Grace, Mr. Melvin Penney, MHA for Lewisporte, and Mr. Doug Oldford, MHA for Trinity North, substituting respectively for Mr. John Efford, MHA for Port de Grave, Mr. James Walsh, MHA for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and Mr. Walter Noel, MHA for Pleasantville, respectively.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ramsay): I now call the meeting to order.

I have been asked by the Chair of the Committee, Mr. Walter Noel, to fill in for him. By leave of the Committee this morning, I sit in the Chair on his behalf. I might note that this morning on the review of the Department of Social Services we had some substitutions. There are a couple of changes.

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Crane, MHA for Harbour Grace, Mr. Penney, MHA for Lewisporte and Mr. Oldford, MHA for Trinity North, substituting respectively for Mr. Efford, MHA for Port de Grave, Mr. Walsh, MHA for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and Mr. Noel, MHA for Pleasantville, respectively. The existing Committee members are unable to attend due to other commitments. The required notices have been filed with the Clerk and I understand everything is in order in that regard.

We have the Vice-Chair, Ms. Verge, here with us, and Mr. Harris as well, the MHA for St. John's East. Are you expecting -

MS. VERGE: The Member for Torngat Mountains will be here in a minute.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Torngat Mountains. Okay. Garfield Warren, the MHA for Torngat Mountains, will be attending as well.

The first order of business is to pass the minutes of the meeting of May 12, this morning, at 9:00 a.m.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We would like to welcome the Minister of Environment and Lands, the hon. Patt Cowan. This is the first opportunity you have had to appear before this Committee in your new portfolio. We will have you introduce your officials and if you have an opening statement - it's not required - but if you do want to give an opening statement that's fine. With that we will turn it over to you and then we will set up lines of questioning. Ten minutes per member, time for some responses, and then we'll move on.

Ms. Cowan.

MS. COWAN: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I am very pleased to have this opportunity to present to the Committee this evening the estimates of the Department of Environment and Lands for the next fiscal year, 1992-1993. As you mentioned this is my first occasion to present estimates as Minister for the Department of Environment and Lands, and I would like to say that I am extremely excited about being in this particular portfolio. I am pleased when I look back over the work that was done in the past year, and I am really looking forward to this coming year where we actually are now already in the midst of forming some legislation that I think will be very important to the Province.

I will introduce to you some of my officials. John Fleming, who is my deputy minister; David Jeans, who is the ADM with the responsibility for Environment and Wildlife; Bob Winsor is not here this evening, he had another pressing commitment having to do with departmental business, he looks after Lands and Parks; directly behind me is Frank Harris, who is head of our financial administration; and then beside him is John Power, who is the Director of Land Management.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would just note, Minister, before you continue, that if you require your officials to answer any questions or to elaborate on anything would you have them identify themselves just prior to speaking?

MS. COWAN: Okay, fine.

This government is committed, Mr. Chair, as you are well aware, to preserving and promoting the richness of our beautiful Province. Accordingly, the Budget includes additional resources in the estimates of the Department of Environment and Lands to ensure that environmental management issues are given increased attention.

A number of significant new initiatives over the coming year will aid in the protection and the enhancement of our physical environment. Notwithstanding the difficult position of the Province, government has seen fit to provide funding for additional staff in environment and in the wildlife branch of our department.

Specific areas, programs, in environmental protection to be addressed with the new resources include stepped-up enforcement of environmental legislation; more timely application of our environmental assessment process; greater attention to air quality issues; improved service to the public regarding the processing of regulatory approvals and permits, and the provision of public education and outreach services.

Funding in the amount of $60,000 was provided just last weekend actually, to support a cost-shared household hazardous waste collection project for the St. John's area.

Increased funding for the wildlife division will ensure that a number of temporary wildlife protection officers can be taken on during the Fall and Winter periods when hunting pressures are greatest. Also, funding for equipment and training for staff in the area of wildlife will be increased.

Funding in the amount of $4,609,000 has been provided also for the cleanup of the contaminated sites at Makinsons, Come By Chance and Gander. The work is carried out under a federal/provincial agreement, 50/50, called The National Contaminated Sites Remediation Program.

Chairperson, the department has successfully negotiated transfer and funding agreements in connection with the reversion of the abandoned railway lines from the Government of Canada to the Province. The funding agreement, which currently awaits the signature of the federal Minister of Transport, provides for funding in the amount of $540,000 over a two-year period which began April of last year, to pay for hiring contractual personnel conducting legal surveys and other associated costs.

Our lands branch will continue to make land available for recreational and residential purposes through a cost-recovery program. It is anticipated that in excess of 200 lots will be made accessible and become available for application by the public in this fiscal year.

Significant work will be carried out in our parks branch this year. Although we are called Environment and Lands, we do have responsibility for parks and wildlife. The Tourism Historic Resources Agreement will see almost $4 million expended in four provincial parks over a five-year period.

During 1992-93 these are the projects that will be undertaken: $100,000 will be expended to design a visitor interpretation centre at Cape St. Mary's; $200,000 will see the completion of a camp site upgrading and comfort station and trail work at Barachois Park; and $400,000 will be used to construct a comfort station and improve camp sites at Dildo Run Park; $100,000 will be spent on Fitzgerald's Pond to undertake study and site plans for new facility developments.

Chairperson, these are some of the highlights of our department's plan for the 1992-93 year. Allow me now to give the committee a brief overview of the department's structure and operations following the format that is set down for us in the estimates.

As is standard with other government departments, our departmental estimates initially provide for the operation of the minister's office, the executive and administrative support functions. Beyond that, the estimates reflect the organization of the department in two sectors, environment and wildlife, and then section 2, lands and parks.

Chairperson, as I am sure you are aware, just by my introductions, we have two assistant deputy ministers - Dave Jeans, who I just introduced, and Bob Winsor, who is doing other departmental business this evening. These two positions, and the directors of Human Resources, Financial Administration, Policy and Planning, and Public Relations, report to the deputy, Mr. John Fleming.

I will now briefly review the Department's principal programs beginning with Environment and Wildlife. There are five divisions in that particular branch. First of all, the Environmental Investigations division is responsible for monitoring commercial, municipal and hazardous wastes, and ensuring that they are disposed of in an environmentally acceptable manner. This division is also responsible for oil and chemical spill response, processing applications for fuel storage systems, and for processing environmental approvals for small-scale developments.

Second, we have the Civil and Sanitary Environmental Engineering division. It is responsible for the investigation and identification of environmental problems relating to the design, construction and operation of municipal infrastructure systems. The division also carries out an operator training program for operators of municipal water and sewer systems throughout the Province.

Third, we have the Industrial Environmental Engineering Division. It ensures that all industry in our Province complies with the requirements of legislated environmental standards and undertakes the evaluation of air quality in sensitive areas. A network of seven precipitation stations is operated in the Province to monitor and assess the impacts of acid rain.

Fourth, the Water Resources Management Division, is responsible for the implementation and evaluation of approved programs relating to the conservation, development control, improvement and proper utilization of water resources in our Province. The water investigations and water rights section issues approvals for stream alterations and water use authorizations.

Fifth, the Environmental Assessment Division administers the Environmental Assessment Act and the Pesticides Control Act. This Environmental Assessment Act provides for the protection of the environment of Newfoundland and Labrador by requiring the registration for possible assessment by all undertakings which may have a significant impact on the environment. As I mentioned earlier, new resources this year will see more timely application of our environmental assessment process.

The significance of this area of activity has continued to grow due to our role in overseeing the development and implementation of the environmental protection plan for the Hibernia-GBS construction site. The plan, known as the EPP, describes the specific environmental protection measures which will have to be taken throughout the life of the project, from GBS construction through to site de-commissioning. The government is working with Nodeco and the Hibernia Management and Development Company Limited on an ongoing basis in developing appropriate standards for the construction, operation and the eventual rehabilitation, or subsequent future use, of the site.

The Wildlife division, now, is the agency which has responsibility for the management and protection of our provincial wildlife resources. On the island a total of 28,390 moose licenses and 2,720 caribou licenses are available for the 1992-1993 hunt. This represents a decrease of 837, or 2.8 per cent, in moose licenses, and an increase of eighty, or 3 per cent, caribou licenses over the 1991-1992 quotas. In Labrador, moose quotas are increased by 7 per cent from those of 1991, with a total of 155 moose licenses available for the 1992-1993 hunt. My Department will take steps, with the help of extra funding, to ensure that our wildlife protection officers are not working under unsafe conditions, and to improve communications and transportation equipment within this branch.

Now, Mr. Chairman, moving on to Lands and Parks; the Crown Lands Division is responsible for the administration and control of Crown Land. The division processes these land applications and issues Crown titles; this work is largely decentralized through the regional offices in St. John's, Gander, Corner Brook and Goose Bay.

The Crown Lands Division is also responsible for maintaining the Crown Land Registry which houses all the official documents that deal with the granting, leasing, licensing and transfer of Crown Land in the Province. Related to this, is the cadastral mapping section which is actively plotting all Crown titles on large scale mapping. This division also operates a map and air photo library, where maps and photos can be viewed or purchased.

The Land Management Division is responsible for the orderly management of the Province's Crown Land resource. This division, through the Interdepartmental Land Use Committee, reviews proposals which may impact on Crown Land. Examples include draft legislation, municipal and regional plans, reserves, waste disposal sites and silviculture plans. The Land Management Division prepares land use plans and undertakes certain small scale developments. As I stated before, in excess of 200 lots will be made accessible to the public in 1992-93, through a cost recovery program.

The Surveys and Mapping Division has responsibility for the provincial geodetic survey and topographic mapping programs. Work is continuing in the production of large scale maps for use in resource planning and property mapping. The division is contracting $80,000 annually to convert topographic maps to computer digital data sets as part of a 50/50 cost-shared program with the Government of Canada.

The Surveys and Mapping Division also provides support services to other departments and agencies of the provincial government in standards, specifications, contract inspections and consultation in the areas of legal surveys, mapping, air photography and geographic information systems. The Parks Division is one of the major components of the department and is responsible for all matters related to the planning and management of our provincial parks system. We have a total of eighty provincial parks, thirteen ecological reserves and two wilderness reserves in the system of parks encompassing an area of 4,497 kilometres.

Our system of provincial parks protects some of our Province's most valuable resources. Government is continuing to preserve and protect these special natural areas while providing high quality standard services for the general public. Several new initiatives are under way this year; the government will be taking immediate steps to establish an internal task force on provincial parks, with a mandate to develop, in consultation with various interest groups, a master plan for the parks system as a whole. We will indicate to the Government of Canada as well, that we are prepared to participate, in conjunction with the people of Labrador including native groups, in feasibility studies for the possible establishment of national parks in the Torngat Mountains and Mealy Mountain areas.

Outside this, park officials are continuing to prepare a management plan for Main River in Sop's Arm and are working to nominate the Bay du Nord River to the Canadian River Heritage System. Some of you may have noticed that that was used on a series of stamps some while back which I felt quite pleased to see.

Chairperson, this concludes my review of the principal programs of the two branches of the Department of Environment and lands. I trust that the information I presented will provide the committee with an accurate account of the significant and diverse responsibilities of my department and I trust this has been reflected accordingly in the departmental estimates.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister Cowan.

That presentation leaves very little in the way of not covering anything but I am sure that that will not preclude any of our members from having any questions. I now ask the Vice-Chair if you would like to have some time to question the minister?

MS. VERGE: Yes, I would, but I will pass to my colleague the PC Opposition critic Mr. Warren and I will have a turn later.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren go ahead.

MR. WARREN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman.

Madame minister, I listened to you the last seven or eight minutes outlining your tasks. I do not want to be really critical but I have to say, and I say this in all honesty, the department that you have recently taken over I really believe is too big for you. I say that in all honesty, I do not think you can accomplish what needs to be done in that particular department. I am not saying that for any reason other than in knowing what people are saying. In our Province today, other than unemployment, the environment is the most serious issue and with all due respect to you we as an opposition have been having difficulty in getting answers to questions since this Legislature opened. I understand there are reasons why you cannot be here, and that is unfortunate, because this issue is too important for a minister not to be here to answer the very, very serious questions that need to be answered. Hopefully tonight I will get some of the questions out but three hours is not going to be enough. I really think that day after day there are very serious questions that need to be answered. I asked a question a month and a half ago about Kitts Michelin and I have not yet got an answer back on that one. I think it is a bit ridiculous that when there are questions asked that the public cannot be given some answers to those questions. I think I will probably start off with Kitts Michelin. Recently the company involved have allowed people from nearby communities to go into this area, dismantle buildings, take what they want to take, at the same time knowing, and your department knew, your officials knew, that there are dangerous chemicals in that area and not one thing has been done about it. People were allowed by the company to go into this area, break windows out, and tear doors down on buildings that held dangerous chemicals. It is no good for any official or yourself to tell me otherwise because I can even tell you the names of the people who went in there. As of yet I have no explanation, or the people in Postville or Makkovik have no explanation as to why that company was allowed to do that and at the same time, knowing that company tried to con a Labrador businessman into signing an agreement to clean up that site for $325,000 over a year ago and this guy would not do it because of the good advice he got from a former employee of your department.

Madame minister you announced about cleanups in Come By Chance, Makinsons, and I think it was Gander or Gambo, one of those places. But the biggest cleanup that is needed to be done is from this uranium mine between Makkovik and Postville that the company was advised to do back in 1982-83 I think it was, and they still have not done it. I would like to have an answer from the minister as to why the delay of this particular cleanup; and has the minister dispatched someone to that site within the last month and a half? If she did, could you tell us the findings and what was discovered?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren, I do not wish to leave something on the record that is unclear. Your comment at the beginning of your statement was somewhat all encompassing, you know. I wish you would be clearer. I know you said with all due respect to the minister, but still... I have no hesitation in allowing the minister to answer the question, but a statement like that certainly needs clarification. I can understand you stating the difficulty you had with the question you had asked and that had not been answered for some reason or other, but I certainly think that you should qualify a statement such as the one that you made as to whether the department is too big for someone to handle. I am not going to debate the issue with you, but I just feel you should certainly, the next time you speak, clarify that matter. I will turn it over to the minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chair.

The Kitts Michelin deposits are under the Federal Atomic Energy Central Board, and they are the most actively involved in the decommissioning of those two sites. Now at the same time we do have a person in Labrador who does visit those particular sites.

As you will recall, they were never fully developed. There was some exploration there but the development never took place. We are not aware, in the department, of any dangerous chemicals that are there. If you indeed have that information we would certainly be more than happy to have it. We have not had that information reported to us by our individual who looks into that type of thing in Labrador.

MR. WARREN: Excuse me, Madam Minister. The question was asked in the House. The thirty-four containers were identified, and the person who was substituting for you during your illness is already on record in this Legislature, but no answer came back to me and there are thirty-four containers.

MS. COWAN: Thirty-four containers?

MR. WARREN: That is right.

MS. COWAN: Full of some sort of chemicals?

MR. WARREN: That is right.

MS. COWAN: Well I will have to take that under advisement. I apologize to you if indeed your question had not been answered. I did not realize that, and certainly meant no slight or affront to you, and it was certainly not a withholding of information in any way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I suppose as far as being pressing - did you ask the question again during the Late Show?

MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what you are up to. I am here to ask questions, and whether you like it or not I do not care, okay?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that, and I would not expect you to like what I say. That is part of the process in which we are involved.

Anyway, if you have any further questions -

MR. WARREN: Yes, I have a number of questions. I guess I can go my ten minutes and someone else can cut in.

Madam Minister this goes back a number of years, and it pertains to a blind individual, we all know the guy by the name of Russell Rogers. He had applied for a big game licence. This is not just since you became minister, but has gone on for a number of years - five or six years ago - and he has been asking for a ruling on it. The courts said no. So this individual has not received his big game license. He wanted to get his license and have someone else kill an animal for him.

Right now a person who is not blind but may be a senior citizen or whatever can obtain a license and have someone else kill an animal for him.

This issue should be looked at as more than just a particular person issue. If we allow under law a person to obtain a license and have someone else kill his big game animal than surely we should extend this right to a blind person.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask for clarification on the question? The gentleman to whom Mr. Warren -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Penney, go ahead.

MR. PENNEY: The gentleman to whom Mr. Warren referred earlier, the blind gentleman, was he a resident of Labrador?

MR. WARREN: No, Gambo.

MR. PENNEY: Are you suggesting that there are other people in the Island portion of this Province who can have somebody else shoot their moose for them?

MR. WARREN: No, no.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chair.

I think you have raised a very good point. It is one with which I have a great deal of sympathy and I am reviewing the matter.

MR. WARREN: Yes. Thanks. Could I go on or is my ten minutes up?

Your predecessor, before he got into provincial politics, advocated and in fact gave a lot of support for a provincial park in the Lake Melville area. In fact in last year's budget there was some money identified to continue with the possibility of the park in the Lake Melville area and you announced just now in your summation that there are going to be some monies spent on the various parks and everything else but you did not mention the Northwest River or the Lake Melville park per se. Could the minister advise if that park is put on the back burner indefinitely, or is it just put back for a little while?

MS. COWAN: Well, I will turn that particular question to the deputy or the appropriate person whom he designates in a minute. One of the things that we are doing, which I mentioned in my opening remarks, is that we are taking a good hard look at all the parks in the Province to see which ones could perhaps no longer be in existence because of low usage or whatever, and ones that we might develop even further, the ones that have a potential for attracting tourism, that have interesting habitats that we might want to protect, ecological systems that might be important to protect and that type of thing, so we would be hesitant to leap into doing any particular new development at this stage. However I am not sure what happened to the plans last year, so I will ask John or his designate to comment.

MR. FLEMING: The money spent last year on Grand Lake Park was for land acquisition and for surveying the boundary, not on actual development of the park itself. It is not on the back burner any more than other parts of the same category that have been designated as parks, but they really wait adequate capital monies in order to develop. Another example would be Topsail Beach.

The ones mentioned in the minister's remarks were parks on which there will be some spending under a federal/provincial agreement that applies to specific parks on the island.

MR. WARREN: Could I just sum up with this conclusion? I have had concerns about this particular issue for years because we have the golfing park there that has been developed by the councils and other people and organizations. Do you not think it would be the tax payers money spent foolishly - and I use the word foolishly - in making another park eight and a half miles from this particular park whereas public money could have been going to improving this particular golfing park?

MS. COWAN: I am not quite sure. Could you elaborate a bit? I am not sure what you are referring to.

MR. WARREN: Okay, in Happy Valley - Goose Bay now North West River to Goose Bay is roughly twenty-two kilometres.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: Now between Goose Bay and North West River there is already a public park which is being developed with very little money. I think there were a few grants over the years from government, but most of it was done by organizations and by councils and things like that. This park is a very usable park, a very popular park, but here we are now in the last number of years talking about developing a provincial park seven kilometres away. We only have a population of 7,000 or 8,000 people in that complete area, and I have held the view that I believe government should be seriously looking at it. If they are going to use tax payers money put it in to improve the golfing park instead of starting another park. If this is done then both parks will not be used to their potential.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, if I may.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

MS. COWAN: It is certainly, I think, an interesting point of view, and one that is well worth examining. It sounds to me you have a particularly good case. I would say that when we do our study of the parks, when that study is complete we are going to look for some mechanism - we haven't quite decided yet - to get public feedback on that particular study. If that has not been addressed adequately there will be an opportunity for people in that area of Labrador to provide us with some input. I might add too that once the House is closed I plan to spend a week or two in Labrador visiting women's centres, looking at some of the environmental concerns, the park situation and so on. So I think it would probably be well worth my while to have a look at that particular situation and certainly take the points you raised and the spirit in which you raised them and look into the matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister. Mr. Warren, your time has expired. I will now move on to another committee member. Mr. Penney? Mr. Crane?

MR. CRANE: Give Jack his turn.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Chair. First of all I would say that the minister has, I would agree, probably one of the most important and significant government departments because it is a department that is often faced in conflict with the agenda, I suppose, of other departments and other ministers, and other efforts of government and industry and it requires a fairly determined effort. I would like to ask a few questions on that particular aspect of it.

First of all, you mentioned the wilderness area that we have in the Province of some four thousand four hundred and odd square kilometres. I believe I am right in saying that our proportion of our land mass which is reserved for wilderness is very small by way of percentage, compared to the Canadian average and to other provinces, and in fact is far short of the goal that has been set by international organizations as the desirable goal to maintain wilderness areas. I believe - now the minister or her officials may be able to correct me if I am wrong - that the goal has been set at I believe 10 per cent, or it may be 8 per cent, of land mass preserved for wilderness areas.

With the increasing pressures on all land in this Province, particularly with the kind of access that is obtained through these awful machines that go roaring through our forests and wilderness in the wintertime and summertime, can the minister say whether the government is committed to establishing reserve lands for the use of our children and our children's children, and ourselves, to be preserved as wilderness areas? Is there a commitment on the part of government to a specified goal such as that adopted in other provinces of 10 per cent, 12 per cent, or 8 per cent? Perhaps Mr. Fleming there is telling the minister what that established goal is. Is there a commitment on the part of government to that.

MS. COWAN: Okay. No, I was just wanting to find out actually the percentage on what part of the island, or of the Province in fact, is now protected. It is 1.7 per cent. Seven per cent of the island is protected. But of the whole Province it comes to 1.7 per cent. With the two Labrador parks that I referred to in my opening remarks that will bring the provincial total up to about 12 per cent, which is still below what in fact it should be. The Premier in a letter to Monty Hummel from the Endangered - is it the Endangered Spaces Association?

MR. FLEMING: Endangered Spaces, World Wildlife Foundation.

MS. COWAN: Yes, of the World Wildlife Foundation. The Premier in a letter to him said that we could not promise to reach the required percentage of 12 by the year 2000, but we would be making every effort to do so. So that is the path that we are intent on following. I say that it is something that I feel very strongly about. I think anyone who is interested in environment - I remember reading not too long ago, and you might be interested, or you might be aware of this yourself - that some of the groups, I believe the World Wildlife Federation, says that we only have thirty years of wild forests left within the Canadian nation. That is pretty frightening when we tend to think of ourselves as a vast land with all this area where no foot has ever tramped and that kind of thing. So we feel a strong commitment to creating more reserves, more wilderness areas. But whether or not we can reach our stated goal by the year 2000 we're not quite sure.

MR. HARRIS: Aside from the northern Labrador parks which obviously involves a commitment and cooperation with aboriginal groups and aboriginal rights and other matters, is the government prepared to find other areas within the island portion of the Province to be committed as wildlife preserves or are we saying now: this is it, everything else is up for development?

MS. COWAN: I did not hear your last part?

MR. HARRIS: Are we saying we have had enough and we are not looking at other areas? Are we finished with the Island as far as wildlife preserves? Are we looking to other areas that we might be able to preserve as particular habitats or examples of - I guess habitat is the only word I can think of - where a particular species or type of topography is available?

MS. COWAN: We have not decided we are finished with the Island. We have, for example, the pine marten on the west coast of the Province and right now it is living in a protected area because that land is under environmental assessment and has been for a number of years. That land is being held one way or another hopefully for the development of the pine marten which is rapidly becoming an endangered species. There are a number of ideas we have that might see that land become a reserve. It may become a model forest area which is part of the Green Plan. It could be made a reserve by our government and we are exploring that at the moment. We are always on watch for any animal that is in an endangered state, a bird, or whatever, and will make efforts to establish a reserve if we think that particular creature can be regenerated and brought back, so we certainly would never write off the Island. I did mention that we are now looking to get the whole Main River, and that would encompass a certain amount of land mass around it, declared a national heritage site. Labrador is of course a big interest to us and we will be looking there over the next few years because there is some prime wilderness area there that we would like to keep intact. We have a committee called WERAC which has a mandate to find ecological reserves in the Province and develop, explore and present plans to the government as to why these particular areas should be made permanent natural sites.

MR. HARRIS: As part of the interest in getting the Main River area recognized as a heritage site is government considering or introducing plans to have it protected under its own legislation as a wilderness area? Is that being done as a preliminary part of this application?

MS. COWAN: I would have to turn that question over to the deputy.

MR. FLEMING: That is under consideration over the long-term as perhaps a waterway provincial park but that is a very long-term goal. The immediate goal is to have it declared a Canadian heritage river which then provides a level of profile, if you will, and some monies for planning how the thing should be protected and this sort of thing.

MR. HARRIS: But the Province can declare it under its own legislation as a wilderness preserve, can it not?

MR. FLEMING: It could be done theoretically under the Wilderness Ecological Reserves Act, yes, or it could be done under the Provincial Parks Act.

MR. HARRIS: Without necessarily committing a tremendous amount of money to it but still protecting it?

MR. FLEMING: Quite true.

MR. HARRIS: Is that under consideration?

MR. FLEMING: It is not on the list of areas that is being put forward by the Wilderness Ecological Reserves Advisory Council that the minister referred to. It is among the areas that are in consideration by our Provincial Parks Division for perhaps a waterways park that would be a slightly different class of park than we have at the moment.

MR. HARRIS: Could the minister or the department officials provide us with a list of the sites under consideration by the advisory committee? They may not have it available now but after our meetings? Is that possible?

MS. COWAN: What was the time frame you had it mind, over the next week or so?

MR. HARRIS: I am not talking about this evening, no.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. HARRIS: Last spring there was an issue concerning disposal of solid human waste from Conception Bay South that was prompted by the City of St. John's expressing concern about this form of waste being dumped in Robin Hood Bay. At the time it was suggested by me and, I am sure others, that it was an opportunity for some creative activity or creative co-operation between the Department of Environment and Lands, the municipal officials involved and private industry, perhaps, to develop some pilot project, some method of waste disposal that would be efficient economically but, environmentally, set an example as to how this form of waste might be used, not only to dispose of but also to provide nutrients or fertilizer or whatever else could be done with it. Can the minister advise whatever happened to these discussions? Did anything come out of them? Has the department gone on to set up a pilot project? I know they have spent, as the minister said, $60,000 for a one-day effort on household hazardous waste. Has the minister committed any funds to this type of activity?

MS. COWAN: We have not committed any funds because we didn't need to. Mr. Paul Antle, who is a businessperson here involved in environmental type of business, is setting up a particular plant in the area of Conception Bay South which does deal with that type of septic sludge. So that, I suppose, is going to be open any day now, is it?

MR. FLEMING: It should be by the end of the month.

MS. COWAN: By the end of the month. So that was done in co-operation with the Department of Environment and Lands, the Town of Conception Bay South and the communities there round about.

MR. HARRIS: Does this involve any use of it, other than disposal of the sludge? Is this a waste disposal business? Are we talking about some ecological usage or recycling?

MS. COWAN: Some sort of a by-product, type of thing.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a by-project from Mr. Antle's -

MS. COWAN: Yes, he is exploring the area of fertilizers. John, did you want to say something?

MR. FLEMING: Well, if I can, yes.

MS. COWAN: Go ahead.

MR. FLEMING: We gave Mr. Antle a certificate of approval for this particular facility, actually, last summer, and then over the winter he has been putting together his financing. It uses a somewhat unusual, at least for this Province, type of technology. It is a centrifuge type of technology, which separates the solids from the liquids. He thinks that he can actually get a market for getting rid of the solids for use in making fertilizer. Exactly that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has expired right now. I will turn it over to Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

Last year, when we were considering the estimates of the Department of Environment and Lands, I began my questioning of the minister by asking what, in his opinion, are the most pressing threats or the gravest threats to the environment of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would like to ask the present minister the same question.

MS. COWAN: That is a good question in the sense that we have, I suppose, a number of priorities. I can't identify that, you know, this is one overriding priority, but I think that waste disposal would certainly be near the top of the list. That is a very, very important issue, becoming more so all across Canada. In fact, I suppose, we would be one of the later provinces, not having the density of population. But we do have some unique geographical features that make dealing with waste more difficult here in the Province. So that would certainly be one very, very important issue.

Also, we are part of a number of national protocols and agreements and so on that have been worked out by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, where we are working together to do our part in the `act locally/think locally' mode in which we have to be much more vigilant in monitoring air quality, doing our part to reduce noxious chemicals and what have you that might enter into the atmosphere.

We're involved in protection of the ozone layer through an agreement regarding CFCs; the greenhouse effect, we're playing a role in that as well. Each province has been asked to reach a certain level in emissions by certain dates, varying dates for each of these things. So those are certainly very important issues. I see public education in the environment... do you want me to keep going or...?

MS. VERGE: Okay. My question was not what are your priorities, but what in your opinion are the worst threats to the environment. You have named waste disposal, air quality, the ozone layer, the greenhouse effect. Thank you. Last year your predecessor identified waste management as the greatest problem for the environment. So there is a consistency there. What then are we doing even talking about importing garbage from the United States?

MS. COWAN: I wondered if you weren't working up to that, I'll have to say. I think that to answer that question, Ms. Verge, we would have to look at the position that I play as Minister of Environment. As was referred to by the Member for St. John's East, I play sort of - it's unusual - but a particular role within government where it might even be seen at times that I am in conflict with some of the other aims of our government, although we certainly try to keep the two balanced and look at sustainable development, which is, you know, sort of the buzzword of this particular time.

As far as importing the garbage I would say that there are a number of reasons that it is even being looked at. The ACOA agreement with the company to explore the whole economic viability of it was the first step. As yet it has not fallen into my lap or the government's lap, but mine as Minister responsible for Environment and Lands. Once it does then the responsibility of our Department becomes to assess it under whichever part of the environmental process act we think it falls. I would say at this stage that it would be the most stringent of environmental assessments and to look at it in a very careful fashion.

As far as your question as to why are we looking at it, when we might say that waste disposal is a problem in our own Province, I suppose that if - and I mean, it is a big if, we don't know if this project will go ahead or not; as I said, they haven't even registered it yet and once it is registered we may find after looking into it that it is not acceptable. But should it be acceptable it might indeed provide us with some sort of a prototype or a model or the technology for dealing with our own garbage.

We have in the Province a problem because of our geography with landfill so we have used incinerators to a large extent. We have sixty in the Province now, which as you're probably aware, you've likely seen some of them are spewing some things into the air which we have a desire not to be -

There are a number of those. So we have to find ways. That may come out of that. As I am suggesting too I think we have to look for new technologies.

MS. VERGE: But can't we look for new technologies without importing garbage from the big industrial and populated centres of the United States?

MS. COWAN: That is a difficult question and I think that is one that we are going to have to explore during the environmental assessment process. There will be opportunity for public input and you are reflecting there a large - massive feeling, really - from the public which has certainly been made well known to me. We see things in the paper all the time about it. I can see that in the future we are going to do more sharing of our garbage.

For example, the hazardous waste day that we had in St. John's recently, the household hazardous wastes that were collected went off to Ontario to be recycled. We may see more within the Atlantic region - we, probably, as a Province, cannot support a business that would just deal with household hazardous waste. I use that as an example. We have to start separating that from the rest of the stuff we put in our green garbage bags on the side of the street. We may find that we have to share with the Atlantic Provinces or with Ontario, whoever can deal with that type of garbage, and have other types of sharing arrangements. Ontario, for example, now sends some of its waste materials to the States. So I don't think it will be uncommon to see this kind of thing taking place, but it will have to be under very rigid, strong, vigilantly supervised modes of transport and modes of dealing with recycling, whatever we do with the materials. Again, I caution that we have not given the go-ahead to any waste to energy disposal plant at this particular stage.

MS. VERGE: Last year, I asked your predecessor why the Provincial government doesn't have a recycling program for provincial government offices and he gave a bunch of excuses. Why don't we have it today?

MS. COWAN: Well, I won't give you any excuses because I think we should. It is one of the things that I am putting a focus on in my ministry. I have already done some work. I can't reveal at this particular stage at what place that particular work is. I know we are making a very conscious effort in our department to move along in that particular area. It is certainly something that I feel very, very strongly about, and I would give you no excuses. It must be done and it must be done quickly.

MS. VERGE: By when.

MS. COWAN: I can't give you that date. You know what it is like, having been in government yourself. Sometimes it takes longer to bring things about than you anticipate. I am an impatient person, but I would certainly like to see it happen over the next year or two. I don't know whether certain departments are going to have more difficulty with it than others. I would think the majority of the departments are not going to, it is much a matter of just mind set.

MS. VERGE: It appears to me that all it takes is the will, a little bit of leadership and a few bins with signs saying put your paper in this one -

MS. COWAN: And put something else in the other one.

MS. VERGE: - your plastic bottles in another one, your tin cans in the third one, and we will arrange for drop-offs to Nova Recycling every second Friday.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I am quite in agreement with you. I think it should be taking place. Hopefully, we will see the will there, and I am doing everything I can to foster it.

MS. VERGE: Back to Long Harbour. There are serious concerns being expressed by people in the area, including your colleague, the MHA for Placentia, about the slowness of the clean-up, and I have heard some suggestion that there is a connection between the Albright Wilson clean-up of the mess they created with the ERCO operation there, and the incinerator for the U.S. garbage. Is there a link, and is there some threat that if ERCO, if Albright Wilson or if the proponent of the incinerator doesn't get a green light from the Province, they will back out of the clean-up undertaking?

MS. COWAN: They can't back out on the clean-up undertaking.

MS. VERGE: Why not? I mean, what could be done to penalize them?

MS. COWAN: Well, we can certainly take them to the courts on the situation. They can't escape.

MS. VERGE: What assets do they have that you could go after?

MS. COWAN: Well, at this stage we are examining that, actually. I don't know if you are aware of it, whether you are referring to the fact that Albright & Wilson are selling off some of their companies. You didn't know that?

MS. VERGE: No.

MS. COWAN: This makes it even more of a question, then. Albright and Wilson are selling off some of their companies in Canada and, as many big concerns are these days, they are divesting themselves of some of their holdings as a frugal move in difficult times. We are certainly watching very carefully to make sure that there is, in no way, an attempt by them to escape their responsibilities to the environment.

MS. VERGE: But what power do you have over them?

MS. COWAN: Well, we have the legislation.

MS. VERGE: But what can we do through legislation to penalize them if they default?

MS. COWAN: At this stage that is a hypothetical question. I have been meeting with the principals of the company over the last couple of weeks and the principals have changed. As far as I can see, there is still a commitment there. We are moving ahead with the decommissioning. There has been no suggestion that it will not continue. We are entering now into the crucial stage of the decommissioning where I intend to monitor it daily. That is the actual dealing with the phosphorus, which becomes the really tricky part of it. It is very unusual, the first time in Canadian history that we have ever had to deal with this. But at this stage we are assuming that they are going to meet their responsibilities.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

The next topic, the Corner Brook water supply and other municipal water supplies.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: I asked the acting minister and the Ministers of Health and Municipal and Provincial Affairs questions about the contamination of the Corner Brook water supply a little while ago. I was quite disappointed with their answers. I would like to ask you now, as the Minister of Environment and Lands, what you think went wrong and was it a mistake to have allowed so much logging activity and recreational activity in the Corner Brook watershed area. Your colleagues blamed this problem on beavers, but it is hard to find anyone in the Corner Brook area who believes that beavers are the cause of the problem. Conventional wisdom is that we humans are the cause of the problem and if the beavers became contaminated it was because of human waste being in the Corner Brook watershed area.

There has been virtually no attempt to prevent human activity in the watershed area, and there was express permission given by the provincial government and the City of Corner Brook to Corner Brook Pulp and Paper to log in that area. Trees have been cleared right to the shore of the pond which is the principal source of the Corner Brook water supply. It has all happened, we have the problem and there is not a lot of point to casting blame. What can we learn from that experience? What can we do to contain the problem? What can we do to prevent it from occurring with other municipal water supplies?

MS. COWAN: I think you have really hit on a very key thing. If I had gone on with my list of priorities I would have eventually come to water, because I think we have perhaps been, as Canadians and as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, somewhat nonchalant or whatever about our water supplies. We have felt that they would be there forever. We have treated them much the same as we have treated the air, the earth, the oceans and so on.

I don't dismiss, certainly, your suggestions re the logging activity. I think the whole matter requires a good hard look. I am not saying that that is the problem. I read some of the newspaper articles and so on when I was on the West Coast and they made sense to me. I think it is an area that could be explored. Because when, of course, you do particular types of logging exercises it does change the topography of the land and could, indeed, have some effect on the contamination of water.

So it is again an area that we don't know a lot about but we must find out more. One of the things that, hopefully, shortly - and I know that it started under your government, as well. How long has the water legislation stuff been ongoing?

AN HON. MEMBER: About eleven years now.

MS. COWAN: Eleven years the Province has been working on developing legislation in an attempt to protect the waters of our Province. I am hoping that legislation will be brought into the fore over the next year-and-a-half.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge, we have gone a little over but -

MS. VERGE: May I just ask one more question to follow up?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.

MS. VERGE: While I am encouraged with the minister's attitude towards the Corner Brook water supply problem -

MS. COWAN: It is actually a real concern to me, and I am afraid it might be the start of a number of incidents if we don't become more vigilant. I am sorry, I'm not trying to take up your time.

MS. VERGE: Specifically, what will the minister do to try to discover the root cause of that problem, to contain it, and to prevent a similar occurrence with other municipal water supplies?

MS. COWAN: I think one of the things we have to look at - now, for that specific, I must say that for the containing thing I haven't at this particular stage given that any amount of thought. But it is certainly something that we should do, and perhaps are doing. Are we -

AN HON. MEMBER: In conjunction with Health.

MS. COWAN: Okay, yes. Apparently, in conjunction with Health that is looked at being contained and perhaps you would like to comment on it.

MS. VERGE: I think it would help for you, as the Minister of Environment, to say publicly what you just said. Because officially the excuse is beavers, all this is being blamed on the little beavers. Now, as I said, I haven't found anyone yet who -

MS. COWAN: Maybe it is the little beavers but I don't think we know for sure.

MS. VERGE: I talked to employees of the government departments concerned at junior or intermediate levels and off the record they will say it's humans, but at the senior levels the explanation is beavers. So, apparently, there is some move being made to take the beavers out of the water and, I don't know, kill them or move them somewhere else. But it just doesn't add up that this is a beaver problem. A public health official told me that human waste likely got into the water supply, because people have been in there without any restriction. All that logging activity went on without any proper arrangement for outhouses or lavatories.

MS. COWAN: Yes, you're quite right. I was just double-checking here to see if it did boil down to beaver waste but had been maybe precipitated by other type of waste. But in fact, as you suggested, that particular type of bacteria could be from any particular source. There is a proliferation of beavers in that particular area and it has been felt that they have added greatly, or perhaps created the whole problem.

I think that we have to take a broad look at it. There is so much in the environmental area that is new. Everything seems to be coming to a head now in this particular decade. So we have to be prepared to take a good hard look at these things and, as you suggest, make sure they don't happen elsewhere.

MS. VERGE: But, specifically, what are you going to do there?

MS. COWAN: We are looking at the matter with the Department of Health. John, you might want to comment on that.

MR. FLEMING: Our involvement has been to provide support to the Department of Health in their investigations, and we have done that in two ways. Our water resources people have been working with them, and also our wildlife people, because of the suggestion that it is wildlife that is at fault.

The organism that is causing the problem here is actually a cyst called giardia, and it is referred to commonly as beaver fever, which leads people to then jump to the conclusions that it is beavers but, in fact, can come from any animal - muskrats or, indeed, humans as well. So, as I said, our water resources people, our civil and sanitary people, and our wildlife people have been working with the Department of Health and with the Corner Brook authorities to try to identify, first of all, where the problem originates, what can be done about it, and to take whatever measures might be necessary - like if it is suggested, perhaps removing some of the animals might be something that could be done. So we are co-operating with those kinds of efforts as best we can.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Fleming.

I will just ask now if any of the government members have any questions.

MR. CRANE: Before asking any questions, I am very surprised about some of the questioning, certainly some of the critical - especially from Mr. Warren asking what you are going to do about containers that have been down in Rigolet for seven or eight years. As he said that, I wondered what in the world happened? They have been there so long, why have they not done something about it?

In the meantime, Long Harbour, I would never ask you a question about Long Harbour, I don't think, had Ms. Verge not brought it up, but I am going to ask you now.

I look at Mr. Jeans and he says, yes, you know all about Long Harbour. We know enough about it, Dave, don't we?

Anyhow, I am going to ask you one question. Are you getting any flak on Long Harbour from the public at large? Is your department getting any flak as to why the government is entertaining even - you are?

MS. COWAN: In a lot, yes. Most of the letters go to the Premier's office, but I am kept abreast of the letters that are going in. Most people are questioning. I have noticed somewhat of a change in the last few days in letters to the editor and that type of thing, saying, well, perhaps it is appropriate to have a look at it; but it is, indeed, something that is not popular with the public. That is not surprising. We find it difficult, even within the Province, and they do everywhere in North America, to even come up with a waste disposal site in the traditional manner that is acceptable to people within the population. So it doesn't surprise me.

AN HON. MEMBER: Anybody who has been to Robin Hood Bay knows why.

MR. CRANE: Supposing it came to an environmental study, would the provincial government have the last say on that, or the federal government?

MS. COWAN: No, the federal government is not involved in this particular assessment - or are they?

AN HON. MEMBER: I think they would be.

MS. COWAN: Okay, they will be. We have new legislation now that we are just looking at. The government has a new environmental assessment act which we are just looking at, how it dovetails into the provincial assessment act. Actually, we are going to have to take a good hard look at our provincial assessment act so that we don't have a lot of overlapping areas and that type of thing, so the feds would be involved.

MR. CRANE: So, both of them would have to give an okay, right?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. CRANE: I can understand the people out at Long Harbour council accepting it, because I suppose it can't be any worse than what was there, anyhow. They can burn what they like there and it wouldn't be any worse than the phosphorus industry.

Talking about wildlife officers, as you went on with your prelude, a couple of years ago, maybe last year, they were complaining the government was sending them into the wooded areas one by one, single file, with no weapons and they were clamouring for guns at that time. What ever became of that, Ms. Cowan?

MS. COWAN: We addressed that issue in this year's Budget. We have set aside $778,000 -

AN HON. MEMBER: $738,000 is the total.

MS. COWAN: - $738,000 is the total. I am just double-checking that because this morning I mentioned on the radio that it was $78,000, which was really cost-effective when it came to hiring a number of new employees.

So one of the things that money will be used for is to add an extra person so that the wildlife officers go off into the woods in twos. We are trying to find women as well as men to balance that, which I think is very appropriate, to be wildlife officers. Two people will be hired to be there at the peak of the hunting season when there is the most pressure on these individuals.

I think it was something long overdue. I was amazed when I heard it, but I double-checked the stats, that our wildlife officers have had more assaults on them - now, they don't have a lot - but more than any other place in North America. So, indeed, their cry for a partner when they are out on the beat -

MR. CRANE: So they are happier with that, then?

MS. COWAN: Oh, yes, very happy. We are also providing them - and I did mention that in my preamble - with increased ability to communicate, so that if someone breaks a leg out in the middle of the forest, or whatever, they can radio back for help. We'll get better equipment, snowmobiles, that type of thing, to make their job more effective and more - just better working conditions, I guess it boils down to.

MR. CRANE: One complaint I get a lot of, people are starting up small businesses and they have to get an environmental assessment done. It seems to be a never-ending project to get the answer. The business might be just a small business, a one-, two- or three-man business. But to get an environmental study done it seems to take weeks and weeks. Is there any way your department can hope to speed up that on small businesses? Because it does affect people who are looking to borrow money.

I have two people right now going into a two-man business. I think they are going to get the okay because everything seems okay there where they are going. But it is going to take them, say, weeks to get an assessment done, right? Those are not the only people. I've had some other people who have had the same problem. Is there any way - I know you have to do studies and I know sometimes it takes a lot of time, but is there any way you can speed that up in your department?

MS. COWAN: This is another area in which we are putting some money, John, in order to - is it alright if I say "John"? I always tend to get more informal in these sessions.

MR. CRANE: Oh gosh, you can call me anything. I've been called worse than that.

MS. COWAN: You're not the first one to bring that to our attention. I'm sure there have been many complaints over the years about that. Where we are concerned with development in the Province that is one of the areas in which we are putting some extra people this year. Because it has been government's fault.

Now, some of it the delays are built into the system. They are not delays, they are built into the legislation.

MR. CRANE: Yes, I know.

MS. COWAN: But others have been - we have had to occasionally go to the proponent, the person who wants the okay, and say, you know, 'We just haven't had the personnel to put on this job. Do you mind if we delay it a bit?' We realize that is a very unfortunate thing to do. We will put additional personnel this year and hopefully that will do the trick. If it doesn't we will have to look at putting more people in place.

MR. CRANE: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. Mr. Penney, are you interested in having a few words?

MR. PENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Minister, I would first of all like to comment on some of the comments made by the other members of the Committee when they expressed the importance of your department. Mr. Warren said the department was too big. I can't agree with that, but I will agree with his assessment that it is probably one of the most important departments in government. I think this is probably the time that we have the most environmentally aware people who have ever lived in this Province.

You don't have to go back very far before you can recall that garbage was just thrown indiscriminately onto the beaches, wrecks were thrown into the woods, anything that was aboard a boat could be just thrown overboard. It didn't matter, as long as it was out of sight, it was out mind, and everything was okay. Fortunately, I think we have come to realize that we can't do that. A visitor to our Province three or four years ago marvelled at the clarity of the water that he saw, and the colour. He came from -

MS. COWAN: Inland water or -

MR. PENNEY: Both. I had taken him inland and I had taken him out in boat, and he was absolutely amazed at just how clean and fresh everything was. I think finally Newfoundlanders are becoming aware of just what they have and they want to see it protected.

I am encouraged to see the changes that have taken place within the department within the last few years. It is encouraging to see that individuals are actually being charged for having car wrecks thrown into the woods, garbage just thrown indiscriminately along the sides of woods roads. People are being charged for that and that is very encouraging.

As well, there was a project started by your department - correct me if I'm wrong - I believe it was started last year: the Stop Trashing Our Province, the STOP program. I watched with great enthusiasm as a member of your staff, Mr. Mahoney, came out to central Newfoundland and talked to students, to development groups, to any group interested in participating in the clean-up. It was just absolutely amazing. The enthusiasm was almost contagious.

Now, Madam Minister, I'm hoping that program is still ongoing, and I ask that in the form of a question. If it is, will there be any changes to it? Will there be any more money put into it, or will there be any changes to the existing program? I will let you answer that before I go on to the next question.

MS. COWAN: First of all, I must say, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Mahoney is - we are constantly getting letters and the Premier is getting letters as well from this particular gentleman because he is so motivating when he speaks about the importance of our interaction with the environment as humans, and the importance of protecting the environment. So anybody who hasn't heard him speak, if you need a speaker, he is an excellent person.

One of the things, just a bit of an aside, that I really enjoy about the Department of Environment is the fact that the people who work there have this really tremendous commitment to the environment, and it is really exciting to see that kind of thing. I would say he is sort of an example par excellence really.

The STOP program never got off the ground to the extent that we would like it. The work that Mr. Mahoney did, for example, was really not within the scope of his particular job assignment. He does this quite frequently just on his own free time, he is so committed.

What we are going to do now with these new monies that have been allocated for staff is to have a permanent position for an individual who will interact with community groups and promote the STOP program. We find that we have all kinds of people out there. Every group seems to want an environmental project, and we just have not had the people available within the department to work with those groups, to plug them into Canadian networks, to tell them where they can get money from different - you know the Environmental Partners' Fund and that kind of thing. There are sources of money out there that you can avail of once you get into environmental projects. So we are looking now to hire someone who can, indeed, make that sort of the focus of his or her job or position.

MR. PENNEY: I have to agree with your assessment of Mr. Mahoney. I have known Shane Mahoney for many years and he is quite the speaker, most articulate and entertaining. I am pleased to see that there will be somebody hired full-time to look after this program.

Some time ago the federal government introduced what they called the Green Plan. My understanding was that it was designed to make sure that we had some standard environmental regulations in all of the ten provinces. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to follow the Green Plan, or the changes to it, as closely as I would like. What is Newfoundland's position as it relates to the proposals of the federal government under the caption 'Green Plan'? Do we have a problem with it or are we supportive of what they are recommending?

MS. COWAN: First of all, I have a dandy little brochure. Actually, I should see that it is distributed to all the members of the House of Assembly - maybe, John, if you would just make a note of that. It tells about where the Green Plan is at this particular time, and gives some information on its long-term objectives - readable little thing.

We have not seen a lot of Green Plan money yet in this Province, which concerns me. There is Green Plan money designated for this Province. As yet we haven't seen that money coming about. For example, there is supposed to be some money put into the St. John's harbour and the clean-up there. John, you might like to elaborate further on that.

MR. FLEMING: Well, the only actual projects we have seen so far have been under what is called the ACAP program, which is Atlantic Coastal Action Program. It provides money for studies of areas, estuaries and harbours that perhaps are in need of clean-up. The two areas in Newfoundland that have been designated so far for the spending of some of this money are Corner Brook and St. John's.

In Corner Brook there is a committee already set up and they, I think, have either accessed or are about to actually access some funds under the Green Plan.

In St. John's there are still discussions under way.

There are proposals in to the federal government from a variety of both provincial and private agencies for projects under the Green Plan. One the minister mentioned earlier was the proposal for a model forest in the Little Grand Lake area. That has gone forward. Proposals have gone forward with respect to environmental education. I am just trying to recall some of the - there is quite a variety in any case.

AN HON. MEMBER: Sustainable agriculture.

MR. FLEMING: Yes. These are all being worked on, but the monies have been slow to flow from the federal coffers because of the process they have to go through with their Treasury Board and so forth.

MS. COWAN: One of the things I would like to see - not only would developing some of these Green Plan projects be very, very good for the environmental situation in the Province, they would also provide us with some much needed jobs. So there will be considerable pressure, I would expect, over the next little time from government to get some of these projects under way. The model forest, for example, is one of my favourites. That would provide employment for a significant number of people and, at the same time, be a marvellous project.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penney, we will be breaking at 8:30 p.m. for a coffee break in the common room. So if you have another question, rather than getting into another line of questioning with another member, maybe if you could just -

MR. PENNEY: No, I would like to use the next couple of minutes for another question. I am sure if we are a minute late breaking nobody will mind.

Madam Minister, the words "sustainable development" are a couple of words that have become almost buzzwords in the last few years. We recognise that as badly as Newfoundland and some of the other provinces in Canada need development, need any kind of a project that will stimulate employment, stimulate the economy, we can only do it in a manner that is environmentally acceptable. It was already mentioned about the proposed garbage incineration at Long Harbour. But we have a process already in place that allows for us to do a thorough assessment of those kinds of projects - don't we? - to ensure that it will not be undertaken in a manner that is not totally acceptable environmentally.

MS. COWAN: Exactly.

MR. PENNEY: Could you explain to me just how extensive the review is with those kinds of projects? What are the criteria? What kinds of things are considered? Certainly it is not just direct environmental damage to the habitat. What other departments of government are involved in this study?

MS. COWAN: Oh, goodness, there is a whole group of people who are involved with the department. The federal departments - Fisheries and Oceans, for example, is involved, Forestry, Agriculture.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, I recognise the extent of the answer to that. Do you want to break and let the minister answer it after she comes back?

MR. CHAIRMAN: It would be fairly extensive so if we could reconvene with just a detailed explanation of the environmental assessment process.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If that is okay with all the Committee members? Alright. We will take a break and we will reconvene at 8:50 p.m., ten minutes to nine.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I call the meeting of the Social Services Estimates Committee back to order.

Mr. Penney was questioning the minister about the environmental assessment process. Mr. Penney did use up the bulk of his time. I will allow the minister to answer and then we will turn it over to another questioner.

Minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

First of all, you probably all know that any new business, industry, whatever, has to register with our department before it can undertake the building of its project. In the registration form, they have to provide a fair amount of detail as to what environmental problems they see might arise. They have to give remediation, how they would deal with those particular environmental problems. They have to let us know what sort of equipment they will be using, all that kind of thing, so that we can look at it from an environmental point of view, not just taking their word.

Once that is registered with us there is a forty-five-day period in which a whole range of government agencies have a look at the project and, as well, as any public input can be brought forth. Every Monday morning there is a release to all the papers in the Province with what projects have registered so that individuals will know. We are quite rigid about the government departments, both feds and provincial, getting their assessments of the situation back within a thirty-day period. The public we are a little more lenient with. We want public involvement, we want it through the whole process, so we try to encourage that.

After that is all in, I have fifteen days to decide what to do with it. Now, I can clear it, and the majority of projects are cleared. They are usually small projects that don't have a tremendous impact on the environment. Sometimes they are cleared with the understanding that the company or the little business will do certain things and we will monitor it or whatever, or that we will keep a particular watch on how it impacts on wildlife in the area or whatever.

Speaking of wildlife, that reminds me. When we do the environmental assessments, we don't just look at the impact on the environment. It is an opportunity for Municipal Affairs to see if the road structures going into that community are adequate, and a number of other departments will look at the social aspects, as well, which is important, and it is a good opportunity to do that.

As I said, I either clear it at the end of this forty-five day period or it goes into an environmental preview - no, an environmental -

AN HON. MEMBER: Preview report.

MS. COWAN: Preview report, that's right, and/or an EIS. Now, that is the long one. The preview report is usually what people hope they are going to get if they don't get cleared altogether. Now, if you are going to have the preview report or the full environmental impact statement, first of all, we establish a committee. The makeup of the committee depends on the project. Some of the people who would normally be involved may say: This isn't a particular concern to us at this time, and they wouldn't sit on the committee. The terms of reference are established and then the committee sets to work. Public input is still invited and encouraged all along.

I'm not sure, right off the top of my head, the actual number of days, it is all legislated time frames, or when there is reporting back and so on by the proponent, by government. Those time frames can be extended with mutual consent of both the proponent and the committee that is involved in it.

If we go through the Environmental Impact Statement it comes to me and I have to have a good look at it. I sign it saying that: yes, I would agree that these are the positives and these are the negative, but I don't approve the project. It then goes to Cabinet and Cabinet can clear it if they want or they can say no, or they can say: This is a very complicated thing, it requires more hearings, and go through that particular hearing process.

That is it in about a nutshell, I guess.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's good. It is good to have a better understanding of that. There is only one member over there who hasn't spoken. Are you interested in having a few words now, Mr. Oldford?

MR. OLDFORD: I think I'll pass this time. I think Mr. Warren is -

AN HON. MEMBER: Chomping at the bit.

MS. COWAN: Chomping at the bit?

MR. OLDFORD: - needs some extra time. He's chomping at the bit. So I will give him my turn this time around and maybe I will pick it up the next time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Warren.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

MS. COWAN: You notice he's taken his jacket off, Chairperson. That indicates that we're getting really down into the nitty-gritty heavy stuff now.

AN HON. MEMBER: We're in for a fight now.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I just say to the minister that I'm ready for a long night -

MS. COWAN: Are you? Good.

MR. WARREN: - and hopefully we will probably get through tonight. If not, I would be willing to come back again. I have so many questions, so maybe if the minister likes, I will just ask her short questions and she can give me an answer.

MS. COWAN: We will just go back and forth?

MR. WARREN: Yes, if you would like to. In particular, from the question that my colleague for Lewisporte just asked and you went down through the process, could you advise us if the forty-five days have elapsed regarding the request from a company to develop a small dam on the Pipers Hole River? Isn't that pretty well forty-five days ago by now on that one?

MS. COWAN: No. We are not sure if it has been called or not, Mr. Warren. I will make a note of it, so I will let you know.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much. Madam Minister, in a provincial park, in fact in the Butterpot Park, to be exact, there was a serious accident last year to one of your employees, who was on the tailgate of a vehicle - severe damage - a young person who is probably recuperating now, I guess, one of your constituents by the way -

MS. COWAN: Yes, I was going to say.

MR. WARREN: - and a good friend of mine, too, over the years. Has there been any compensation from government?

MS. COWAN: I am not sure of the answer to that question. John?

MR. FLEMING: Not that I am aware of at this stage.

MS. COWAN: What were you thinking of compensation, in terms of? Has there been a lawsuit?

MR. WARREN: Well, I am just basically asking a question. I guess it could be a number of years before this young person could get back to work.

MS. COWAN: Actually, he is going to be working in parks again this summer. He is well enough to -

MR. WARREN: Yes, but he is still recovering. But there has been no legal action taken, I understand.

MS. COWAN: No. My understanding from chatting with his father shortly after the accident happened, in the months that followed - he is also involved with the Provincial Library Board and we chat quite frequently about the libraries facilities in CBS so I saw him a lot last summer, and they, I think at that point, felt it was an unavoidable accident; it was just one of those really unfortunate things that happen from time to time and nobody was at fault.

MR. WARREN: Okay. The minister mentioned earlier, when my colleague from Humber East was asking questions pertaining to Long Harbour, about the clean-up from Albright and Wilson. I think the Premier probably answered it in the House a few days ago when he said this - I interpreted his comments to mean that it is going to take quite a lot of money and this company needs this project, the U.S. garbage, to get money to clean up the rest of the mess, sort of thing, and the minister said well, you can take action in penalizing. Has the minister considered taking any action against BRINCO and I will go back to Kitts-Michelin again. With regard to the mess that has been left on the Labrador Coast, between Postville and Makkovik, I would like the minister to tell me and probably the deputy can tell me, what action they have taken or if they have taken any action at all against this particular company that government, in 1981, told to cease operations. At the same time, I probably should say to my colleague for Harbour Grace, that he doesn't know his geography very well because I did not mention Rigolet at all and he came back and said something about Rigolet. But I would like the deputy minister to tell us whether they are planning to take any action or, are they determined to get this company to clean up this mess?

MS. COWAN: Actually, there is a clean-up going to take place this summer.

MR. WARREN: How much will it cost?

MS. COWAN: Pardon?

MR. WARREN: And who is going to pay for it?

MS. COWAN: Who is going to pay for it?

AN HON. MEMBER: The company will pay for it.

MR. WARREN: If you don't mind, deputy minister, could you tell me what is happening?

MR. JEANS: David Jeans, Mr. Chairman.

We are just in the early discussion stages with the company which is going to do a clean-up this summer. In terms of what it is going to cost, we don't know that at this stage, but it certainly is not going to cost the government money, it is going to cost the company money. We are in the very preliminary stages of discussion and that work will hopefully be finished up this summer.

MR. WARREN: I will continue, if you don't mind, unless someone else has some questions because I have a lot of questions I can ask the minister.

MS. COWAN: Go ahead, sure.

AN HON. MEMBER: Enjoy yourself.

MR. WARREN: Well, they are serious questions and I enjoy the answers I am getting. In fact, some of the answers are straightforward, and maybe the minister may prove me wrong, the department may not be too big for her, you know.

MS. COWAN: My goodness, he has gone mad! Well, I could say one thing for it and I am sure that you felt the same way when you were there. It is a department where you can really get a sense of coming to grips with things in doing something, which is good.

MR. WARREN: It is interesting. Madam Minister, you mentioned, I think you called it the WERAC committee.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: You said that they make recommendations to your department. Am I to believe they have not met for some - unless they met within the last week or so, they haven't for a considerable length of time and the reason they haven't is that there is not a quorum?

MS. COWAN: The reason they haven't met is actually that I have to name a new committee and I think you will be pleased, Mr. Warren, as to why I do not have that new committee named. I wanted more people on it from Labrador. Because we are going to be looking very much into establishing reserves in the Labrador area, I thought it only appropriate that Labrador be well represented. And, certainly, if you have any suggestions for me of people whom you think would be interested in sitting on the committee, I would be glad to receive them. I am finding that the problem is, we have to be sure that the access to the Island is going to be there. Apparently, experience in the past is that people have been really excited and keen about being on it and then have found it difficult to get here. So we are trying to reconcile, you know, make sure there is a way of getting here so that they can participate and give us the full benefit of their knowledge and a really good representation from that part of the Province.

MR. WARREN: I thank the minister for her answer. I am sure that I can give her some suggestions and I will likewise take her up on her offer. There is a concern in our Province, anywhere I guess, I would think even in the central part of our Island; it is an international problem - and I don't know if the minister or her officials have looked at how we are going to deal with it, that is the abundance of gulls, which is causing an environmental problem, and I think we have to be serious. It is a serious, serious problem and I know that during my brief time in the ministry, that of my predecessors before me and maybe your predecessor, there has been a lot of discussion, but almost as if we do not know what to do, and I would just like someone to come up with a solution. You know, I put out my garbage on Friday mornings and by the time I get my breakfast there are fifty or sixty gulls. It must be good garbage, I suppose.

MS. COWAN: I was going to say maybe that is one of the answers to our waste management, is it, to encourage gulls?

MR. WARREN: Well, what about Grand Falls? There are gulls 200 to 300 miles inland, and on the Labrador Coast it is the same. Last August, a lady was out berry picking on the Southern Shore and the gulls practically came down and started tearing at her, you know. It has come to the point where it is more than a nuisance, it is sort of dangerous, and I was just wondering if the minister has any solutions.

MS. COWAN: No. I don't want to make light of it, but it sounds like Alfred Hitchcock. But I am not making light of the problem. I am not aware of the problem. I could, I suppose, shuffle it off and say gulls are a federal responsibility, but I don't know if my officials -

AN HON. MEMBER: And they are.

MS. COWAN: They are. Oh yes, they are a federal responsibility.

MR. WARREN: That is right; exactly, you know.

MS. COWAN: But certainly if there were a problem it would not be inappropriate for us to bring it to the feds attention. Have we had any input from the public?

MR. JEANS: Minister, Mr. Chairman, I will comment because recently I was attending a meeting at which a member of The Canadian Wildlife Service raised this very issue; of course, gulls are a protected species, so they cannot, or are unwilling to, have a cull. But it is a severe problem, especially near airports and near reservoirs because of the dropping of their faeces and so on. Near garbage dumps they feed on the dumps and then they go and sit on your water supply, which isn't very encouraging.

Basically, the message is to municipalities to try to get them to cover their garbage regularly so that they don't contribute to their breeding by providing a continuous food source.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to interject just for a couple of seconds. I can appreciate the concern raised by Mr. Warren, recognizing that the creatures are, in fact, a protected species.

I think the bulk of the concern is that they do, in fact, get at the garbage bags and they leave a mess out around the driveway. I have been informed only a couple of days ago that if you spray the garbage bags with just regular household ammonia, the gulls will not come near them.

MR. WARREN: Oh, yes. That is common knowledge.

MR. PENNEY: I think that would alleviate the bulk of the concern, and maybe we should start educating householders to that effect.

MR. CRANE: What about if, as Garfield said, they attacked the woman. What are you going to do, spray her with ammonia, as well?

MR. WARREN: Naturally, it is a laughing matter to a certain degree, but it is a very serious matter. As Mr. Jeans just said, this same bird that is down in Robin Hood Bay is also sitting in Windsor Lake, or in Bay Bulls Big Pond. It is a matter that - maybe Mr. Jeans is going to at least express the concerns at his next wildlife federal meeting.

It is too serious for us to ignore, and that is why I brought it up.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. WARREN: I have more questions but someone else may have some, so I will wait for other questions.

MR. CRANE: Go ahead.

MR. WARREN: No, Ms. Verge may have something.

MR. CRANE: Give it to Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: There has been much said in the Province over the past few years about the damage that is being done to our landscape by ATVs. ATVs are a relatively recent phenomenon, but they have taken over the place. Obviously, ATVs riding around wetlands and bogs, especially in the summer when the snow cover is gone, leave long-lasting scars. You can see the damage fairly clearly from the air.

I was pleased to see the government announce in The Throne Speech this spring an intention to restrict the use of ATVs in - I forget the phrase - I believe it was sensitive areas, or wetlands, was it?

MS. COWAN: Sensitive wetlands - is that how it was phrased? Anyway, it is bogs and wetlands.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Well, the snow is going now. Here it is the middle of May and already the snow is going. What restrictions will be in place for this summer to prevent more damage to the bogs and the wetlands and the landscape that is so susceptible to marring by ATVs in the summertime?

MS. COWAN: I doubt, in all honesty, I have to say, that there will be anything ready for this summer. We have a very committed person in our department, again, who is working on this particular aspect. It has turned out that it is not quite as easy as first indicated because there is such a variety of types of wetlands and the information is not readily available on where these wetlands are throughout the Province. We do not have an entire map showing that, however we have clarified a number of these issues over the last month or so and as far as I understand she is quite into the whole thing now. I doubt it will be ready for this Summer. Do you think, John, there is any hope it will be?

MR. FLEMING: It is possible. We are giving it a good try but as you get into these things they become more complicated, as you start to draft the regulations and so forth.

MS. VERGE: I know we have an immense territory and I can see it would take a considerable amount of time and work to identify all the sensitive lands throughout the whole land mass of Newfoundland and Labrador but would you consider approaching it in phases and going with what you know about first? For example, if your knowledge of the Avalon region is fairly complete now would you consider going with regulations for the use of ATVs on the Avalon, beyond what we have already with the wilderness area this Summer? Or if you know about the area between say Bay of Islands, Grand Lake and the Lewis Hills then have regulations for that area this Summer.

MS. COWAN: There is a map that would provide the minister with the ability to create any land and call it a reserve and prohibit that type of activity. I think the way we are moving now we can probably phase the whole thing in fairly quickly. I do not know whether it would be this Summer but we would certainly like to see it this Summer. You fly back and forth all the time so you know what it is like in that dreadful fanning out effect to where the whole bog is just totally ruts. In some of them it will take thousands of years to get back to normal, so it is a difficult problem. There were some problems in the beginning just defining how we were going to do that but we now have that defined and I do not think, unless it comes to my attention in the next little while and it well could, that there is this area that is extremely vulnerable and we have to do something about it immediately. If that is the case then we could move in that direction but I would prefer to bring it in all at once if the lapse in time is not too great because it does not treat anybody differently in one part of the Province than the other.

MS. VERGE: With all due respect that is what several Ministers of Social Services have been saying about the Child Welfare Act. They want to have a grand design for a whole new act but in the meantime there is a still a gap for young people between the ages of sixteen and eighteen, there is still not an enforceable reporting requirement. While we are waiting for this masterpiece of a revised Child Welfare Act children are falling between the cracks. In the case of the environment, instead of waiting however long it will take, which will probably be years, before a map is made of the whole Province -

MS. COWAN: Oh, no we are not going to do that. We do not need to do that now. We have clarified it but that was a bit of a problem in the beginning because we just were not quite clear on the Cabinet directive, but we have that sorted out now so I do not think we need to worry about maps and things. When it started in the beginning it presented a bit of a problem for the person who was involved with that and when she clarified the thing with me I think she is off and running with it. That is all I can say at this stage.

MS. VERGE: But the Summer, the season upon us is the time of risk so can we not do something for this Summer? Something is better than nothing, especially if you start in the populated areas, in the media centres. Presumably the people who have been running around the bogs in the ATVs have not realized the damage they are doing.

MS. COWAN: They probably have not realized the damage. It is certainly an idea worth exploring and I think we could certainly look into it and see what problems there could be. Obviously there could be benefits. There is no doubt about it. You know, I am quite willing to give that a look.

MS. VERGE: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I was just wondering on that matter - with the committee's leave if I might just ask a question. In consideration of that is there any thought of the idea of using the wildlife oriented individuals. We know of people in our own communities throughout the Province who are enthusiasts for wildlife activities and who also are probably the leading environmentalists. One of note might be our hon. member for Lewisporte who is very keen on environmental issues and of utilizing people in the given areas as part of the overall process and approach to enforcing such regulations through deputizing or something along those lines.

MS. COWAN: You are not the first person who has brought that to my attention, but I was quick to remind him of the high rate of assault that wildlife officers have experienced in our Province, and they might not want to expose themselves to that kind of physical damage. We have looked at how we will enforce this because obviously there is no point in having legislation if you can't enforce it.

We have looked at models, how the police enforce particular traffic violations and that kind of thing. Well they might have seat belt month or something like that, you know, when they crack down on seat belts, there is advertising done on seat belts, that is an approach that we certainly could take. During a certain time frame during the year our wildlife officers could be directed to make this their prime concern, and to monitor to see if people are using the bogs, to make sure that people who have summer places in remote areas or have built a proper road or have found another way using a mineral road or whatever would be appropriate and not damaging the environment. We are looking at that as well.

I would be a little nervous because some people take that role now because they are so concerned and they have a social conscience about the environment, but I don't know if I would go out and encourage it. Although interestingly enough, I thought that there would be a number of people upset about this legislation, the people who do go in and just drive everywhere. But so far I have had one representation from one group which I could understand because they live in an area that is pretty well all bog, so they are afraid that they are just going to be totally eliminated from using their ATVs if they don't have any other place to use them. It seems to date to be very well accepted, so that is positive, but at the same time getting back to your question, I think that it would be a bit risky.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I suppose some adaptation of that kind of thing may work and may be sustainable.

MS. COWAN: Maybe over the years, you know, once it becomes more of an accepted practice.

MS. VERGE: I have another question that I ask every year. In the last election campaign three years ago the PC party advanced the idea of a Newfoundland Ranger Force which was conceived as an integrated enforcement group integrating environment enforcement, forestry enforcement, wildlife enforcement, and inland fisheries enforcement which would have to be transferred from the federal government.

The other day I was reading through the file I have labelled 'Liberal Propaganda' and I discovered that the Liberal party in the last election promised a Conservation Corp, which is the same idea. This administration has a fixation on amalgamation, whether it is municipal or (inaudible), why doesn't the government implement that campaign idea of a Conservation Corp and amalgamate the enforcement people for environment, wildlife, forestry? Perhaps the overall productivity would be greater than with the current fragmented approach?

MS. COWAN: Yes. Actually, I will let John respond to that because it was done before I came into the Ministry. But there was a really good hard look taken at that, I believe by Treasury Board, was it? Or who looked into it?

MR. FLEMING: One of the things that we asked to be looked at was the idea of integrated enforcement within the Department. That would have been for Environment, Wildlife, Lands and Parks, not Forestry. The idea was to create a dedicated enforcement unit. What we decided after the analysis was that there were more negatives than positives in doing that. For example, if you were to take all the Wildlife people - the current Wildlife people, who constitutes by and large the majority of our enforcement people - and try and devote them to other things, you would in fact be losing a lot by taking them away from the wildlife and management functions that they also perform.

So the direction that we are moving instead is rather than forming a dedicated enforcement unit is to move towards a classification which we are, at the moment, for discussion purposes, calling a conservation officer type of classification. Which would see more commonality between the various kinds of enforcement officers and technicians that we have and at the same time move to more coordinated enforcement throughout the Department.

It may be that this would move over time, if we move in this direction, to even greater amalgamation, I guess, if you can look at it, or commonality between the various units of the Department. We would like to see that develop over time and just see how things work. Go one step at a time, if you will.

MS. VERGE: Not the Eric Gullage approach.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) slowly.

MS. VERGE: Okay, what else do I have here? Oh, Crown lands. Every few months I check on the status of the railway lands which are supposed to be transferred from the federal government to the Province, excepting whatever the feds want to keep for federal purposes. It is always next month or soon, but it still has not happened. When I last checked it was supposed to be the end of February, this year. What is going on with that transfer and what does the Province propose to do with the railway lands? In particular, the railway bed.

MS. COWAN: Okay. The answer to the first part of the question is we have done our work at this end, although we should probably start putting some pressure on the federal officials. The Premier and I have both signed the documents which are necessary at this end. What we are waiting for now are the federal people, the federal ministers involved, to sign. I am not aware - like you I do ask frequently, but I have not asked in the last couple of weeks to find out what the holdup is. Perhaps we should be putting a little pressure on.

MR. FLEMING: The main problem is a technical problem, and that is that all the lands involved have to be described and included in the agreement. There has emerged much more problem with respect to little bits and pieces of lands and the descriptions of those. That is pretty well on the federal side. I think most of that is cleared up now and the thing should be signed pretty soon.

MS. VERGE: Okay. This was provided for in the so-called Roads-for-Rails agreement a few years back. To my surprise I discovered that CN is still billing people for leases. In particular, CN in Moncton has been sending bills to cabin owners in the Humber Valley - I presume all across the Province - for rent for railway crossings. The railway does not exist any more. There is no railway crossing. The land is supposed to belong to the Province, but CN is still billing people. I have protested and copied Bob Winsor and Geri Lutz in Intergovernmental Affairs. Has the Province spoken to the federal government and asked them to knock off?

MS. COWAN: I will turn that over to John, who has been sitting there quietly waiting for a question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, well after you answer, Mr. Power, we will turn it over to Mr. Harris then Ms. Verge. He is getting a bit impatient there, squirming around in his seat.

MR. POWER: We have spoken to the federal officials about the invoicing of persons who had agreements, be they crossing agreements or ownership agreements, about the invoicing, but they have been hesitant to turn it over to us because of the liability questions involved and because the ownership is still with the federal government. We have been assured by the CN people that once the Province does get ownership, and that may be tomorrow or maybe the next day, that all of the accounts will be turned over to the Province.

MS. VERGE: And what is the Province going to do with them?

MR. POWER: We are still working on it.

MS. VERGE: I will have to ask the minister that. Evidently when the feds turn over the land to the Province the feds will, at the same time, turn over their accounts. The feds, or CN, or Terra Transport, have leases with various people for people's use of railway land; for example the cabin owners who have agreements providing for using railway crossings which obligate these individual citizens to pay money to the federal government. My argument is that the people are not getting anything any more, and I am asking what the Province is going to do with the accounts? Will the Province forgive people for rent for railway crossings since The Roads for Rails Agreement - since we lost our railway?

Actually, I have a constituent who is a very conscientious senior citizen who when asked - actually at the time of the agreement to close the railway, wrote a letter to CN asking if she would still have to pay; saying she did not think she would have to. Three years went by and she did not hear anything. Finally she got a reply saying: Yes you have to pay, and now you owe us three years' worth, and she paid. She wrote them a letter then saying: This is the last time I am paying. Then they have the gall to send her another bill for last year. I wrote her reply this time, saying that they had ripped her off the previous year and I had advised her not to pay any more for the following reasons, and sent a copy to Bob Winsor in your department.

MS. COWAN: So your question to me was, what are we going to do?

MS. VERGE: Question number one, when you get the land and the accounts, will you forgive all these poor people their payments for railway crossings, since there are no more railway crossings and have not been for years - a couple of years; and will you refund my constituent the money that she has paid?

MS. COWAN: How much did she pay?

MS. VERGE: It was only about $100, but still she can use it more than CN.

MS. COWAN: That is right. It is not a problem of which I have been aware. It is certainly something that we are going to have to look into. I did not realize that people were paying that money out to the federal government, and it will be something that will be in our ball park. Are you familiar with that particular issue, Bob?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, I am familiar with that, if you want me to...

MS. COWAN: Yes, sure. Go ahead and make a comment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Power.

MR. POWER: The department, or government, does have a project team that is dealing with this very issue. There are some 2,300 third party agreements between CN and private individuals, and all of those agreements are being reviewed individually. I do not think the Province will be as tough. They can take some liberty on that. I do not think they would be as tough as CN in terms of collecting for the back use. I do not think we could legally collect it.

MS. VERGE: Would you entertain a request for a refund?

MS. COWAN: We will think about that one, okay?

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MS. COWAN: Spoken as a good MHA.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have no objections to the Member for Humber East being quite lengthy in her questions and taking up lots of time, as long as I am given an equal amount of time to deal with questions if I need it. I want to ask the minister about recycling.

Now the Member for Humber East asked a question which was asked last year but through the former minister, and I think we had a similar answer. I have just received some information indicating that the Government of Ontario has just had signed into law, a Waste Management Act which brings about some changes in the Ontario recycling programs -

MS. COWAN: Now is this just for government, Mr. Harris, or for the Province, to which you are referring?

MR. HARRIS: Well, let me finish.

MS. COWAN: Okay.

MR. HARRIS: - as a result of which, recycling programs would be expanded to include 90 per cent of Ontario's households. Many businesses must now conduct waste audits and recycling must be expanded to the industrial/commercial institutional sectors. Now, this is for the whole Province of Ontario, not just the government or not just a government building and I am not suggesting that this is to the credit of the NDP, they have only been in a year, obviously this has probably been on the go by the former Liberal Government of Ontario so we do not take credit for everything that goes on in Ontario, even though many things are good.

Last year, we talked to the former minister and we just talked about this building, the Confederation Building, East and West; can we not set an example, can we not have a project, what is the problem, is Mr. Fleming the problem, is he holding it up, is the Premier holding it up, is it the Minister of Works Services and Transportation. Who is it, who is holding this up? Are you holding it up?

Somebody is preventing this from happening and I am not suggesting that we can, in an instant or in a year say that 90 per cent of the households in Newfoundland in the far-flung reaches of everywhere are going to be affected by a government sponsored recycling program or government mandated program, but surely within the precincts of the government offices, without the one or two years that the minister has talked about; last year's minister I think was predicting and I stand to be corrected, he was talking about six months; now the minister is talking about a year or two, hopefully, maybe we can do something.

Now I think that is unacceptable; I think that most people would regard that as unacceptable. Maybe a totally comprehensive program where nothing would be used that was not recycled might be a difficult thing, but surely the government services, the environment department or somebody can co-ordinate and insist upon a mandated program of recycling within the precincts of the Confederation Building at least, maybe not every government department all over the Province but at least that, so who is holding it up, is it you, is it Mr. Fleming? If it is not Mr. Fleming, is it the Premier, is it the Cabinet, who is holding it up?

MS. COWAN: I think one of the problems that probably came about was, since I have been involved with the Environment would probably be partly due to my illness and partly due to the number of changes in the Ministers of Works, Services and Transportation, but the thing is moving along at this stage and I have to say Jack, the same thing as I said to Lynn, that I am embarrassed, frankly...

MR. HARRIS: You should be.

MS. COWAN: - that it has not moved along faster than it has and you know, we will be putting every effort into getting it into place.

MR. HARRIS: Can we get a better commitment than one or two years? I mean that seems to me to be a very long - it is a very safe answer I could agree with you, it is a very safe answer. It is easy to say one or two years because maybe in one or two years there will be another government or another Minister of Environment and Lands. I am not criticizing you for that, it is a very safe answer, but can you not commit yourself to something a little bit more reflective of your expressed impatience than one or two years.

MS. COWAN: Well when I said one or two years I was saying it in the same context that you were, when you get down to the last government agency and the last finite detail and so on it could very well take a couple of years, but there is no reason why within a six month period we shouldn't see some concrete examples of changes made, even like getting some garbage buckets in here.

MR. HARRIS: Well I will be marking that down, minister, six months from now.

MS. COWAN: Okay, you mark that down.

MR. HARRIS: If you are embarrassed now -

MS. COWAN: I will be more embarrassed then.

MR. HARRIS: - we will be sure to make sure you are embarrassed in six months time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you recycle your own paper in your own office? We do up in our office.

MR. HARRIS: Good. When I'm the minister you can ask me questions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: He's not very often funny!

MR. HARRIS: Now I want to talk about car wrecks. I know that they have been the bane of parts of our wilderness for many years. Last year the government introduced as one of its new measures increases in fines for car wrecks. There were changes in the fines, they increased the fines from $2,000 to $5,000, in what I would describe as a punitive approach, the big stick approach that we will get these people who are throwing away car wrecks and we will fine them $5,000. My guess is the people who are doing that sort of thing are perhaps people who are dealing in old wrecks, buying scrapped vehicles, or probably people who are without resources and without the $5,000 to pay in any event if you could catch them, if you could enforce them. You don't have people going around policing this thing, and it is very difficult to trace down these things even if the staff and resources were available.

I find with your government, not just in this area but in a couple of other areas, that the solution quite often seems to be: well, we will just up the fines. We will make the stick bigger, and we will rely on enforcement rather than using some innovative approach. Would it not make sense to consider a different approach to an issue such as car wrecks in co-ordination with the motor registration people, the department of transportation, whereby a system might even provide an incentive to get some of the car wrecks that are in the forest, in the wilderness and in the environment now, out of there. To provide an incentive for the return or disposal of car wrecks in approved sites creating some sort of a bounty system - if you want to call it that - whereby each time a person buys or registers a new car a fund can be contributed to which can be used as a bounty for the return or proper disposal of these wrecks. Can your department not consider something like that as a more effective way? I mean you probably could get some of these yahoos who are involved in the disposal of these wrecks to get out there and make a few bucks hauling them out of the woods. Is that not a more reasonable approach, and has the department ever looked at that as opposed to the big stick?

MS. COWAN: We are looking at that right now in conjunction with the big stick. So you know the matter is being considered.

MR. HARRIS: Something along those lines? Can any one of your officials give us more details on what is being considered?

MS. COWAN: Well this seems like a deposit system, I guess you would say, like on bottles, or on returnable items that we are moving towards now.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a committee looking at it? When does the committee do the report? What is happening?

MR. FLEMING: It is among the measures that are being considered. That is all I can say at this stage. There is no firm schedule on it or anything of that nature. The idea of putting deposits on cars is another idea as the minister said. It is like putting deposits on beverage containers or any number of types of waste.

MR. HARRIS: When you say the matter is being considered has any specific staff been assigned to write up a report, develop a proposal or put forward alternatives? Has that been directed, and if not will the minister commit herself to directing someone to put forth concrete proposals to her on such schemes?

MS. COWAN: Our focus at this particular time is the beverage containers and that is where we are sort of putting our human resources at this particular time. The car wreck thing will be included in the waste management study which we are now in the process of planning so that we can get that under way, so I think using that particular vehicle we can explore the possibility of the deposit system more, some sort of bounty or whatever you prefer to call it.

MR. HARRIS: What is the time frame on that?

MS. COWAN: I could not give you a time frame at this stage. We have our agenda set for this year. This year our plans are being made, the priorities are being set, and the terms of reference are being drawn up for the waste management study so I would assume it will get off the ground later in the year or early next year.

MR. HARRIS: So we are not looking at any action on that for some time?

MS. COWAN: I have to say, Mr. Harris, that there are a multitude of environmental problems in the Province that have come to a head at this particular time and we are trying to move on a number of fronts with limited resources. Government has put into our department this year, and I am very pleased, extra resources so that we can move ahead in some very critical areas but as much as we would like to we cannot move on every critical area at once. You need money for social services, you need money for a health care system and that type of thing, so as much as we would like to be able to correct all the problems in the Province in the next twelve months I think it would be rather unmanageable and a dream really to be able to do it.

MR. HARRIS: The other topic I wanted to address in this round was the issue of forestry. We have in our Province right now, I understand, an agreement of some kind between the Department of Forestry and Agriculture and the Department of the Environment and Lands whereby essentially, if I understand it correctly, the Department of the Environment and Lands does not get involved in any environmental review of logging projects or forest management proposals put forth either by paper companies or those intending to log Crown lands. In fact this is not done by your department at all. The Department of Forestry and Agriculture is involved in it and I suppose is essentially hands off from the Department of Environment and Lands. Now this can lead to many problems, not the least of which, the giardia problem in the Corner Brook water system is perhaps one of the results of that. The Department of Forestry and Agriculture obviously is looking at forest management from a different perspective than the Department of Environment and Lands and there may indeed be a different philosophy about environmental issues amongst the Departments of Environment and Forestry. Indeed, they have different goals.

Is the minister satisfied that the requirements and the philosophy and goals of environmental review are being satisfactorily looked after by another department in the area of forestry operations in the Province?

MS. COWAN: Thank you for that question. It was found several years ago - I don't know whether it was by our government or the former one; I think it must have been the former government - that the environmental assessment process which I outlined in very brief form to you here earlier was not adequate for assessing forests and the environmental impact that there might be on forests by the establishment of logging companies and that type of thing.

There has been in the making for a number of years a plan to address this issue that is being done by mutual working together of the Departments of Environment and Forestry. Unfortunately it has proceeded too slowly. So recently there was an application came to government, or registration, for a project, and I said that it could not go ahead until these particular forest management guidelines - what's it called? It's not -

AN HON. MEMBER: Forest harvesting.

MS. COWAN: Forest harvesting guidelines had been drawn up. So that has put considerable pressure on the two groups, both Environment and Forestry, to get their act together, get this particular plan in place, so that we can proceed with proper assessment of a logging operation or whatever it should be that is going to make use of the forest resource. So that study it looks like now should be, because of the pressure to do something about it, completed in the next two months.

MR. HARRIS: I am delighted to see that the minister is being insistent in that area. Because we have had the Minister of Forestry admit in the House in recent days that the issue of replanting forests that are being cut down is seriously... not underfunded, but it's seriously not being done. That in fact we are not replanting the forests that we are cutting down. Of course, anybody who has flown over Newfoundland, has seen large areas of clear-cut with strewn waste about. When an industrial operation is using land and has to restore that land afterwards to a proper environmental degree, yet we do see logging operations leave land and not restore it properly.

Is the minister saying that these harvesting guidelines themselves will be sufficient, or is the minister considering playing a stronger role by her own Department in the ensuring that not only new proposals, which I assume we are talking about here, a new proposal for - is this the Labrador proposal you're talking about?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. Not only new proposals, but I mean the existing harvesting operations of Abitibi and the Corner Brook Pulp and Paper. Is the minister looking at whether or not these companies are operating on proper environmental standards as well?

MS. COWAN: Each new company now has to register with the Department of Environment. After this assessment is put in place then we will use that as our guidelines for assessing. So the Department of Environment still plays a role there, not Forestry.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. For new operations.

MS. COWAN: For new operations.

MR. HARRIS: What about Abitibi and Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, some of the larger sawmills which have logging operations? Is the minister satisfied with the standards that are operating in the forest industry in general?

MS. COWAN: I will refer that to the deputy, John Fleming.

MR. FLEMING: What is registered under the Environmental Assessment Act are the forestry's five year management plans. That is what the Act calls for. I think the answer to your question is that as areas currently under harvesting are brought into these five year management plans, and as these are registered, they will be assessed, yes.

MR. HARRIS: So you will be assessing them once the management plans are put in place?

MR. FLEMING: Yes. Right.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Warren, you have further questions?

MR. WARREN: Yes, I have several questions. Mr. Chairman, it's about ten minutes to the hour of ten o'clock. I have a number of questions. I would like to know if we are going to break at 10:00 p.m. and come back again at some other time, or what is the...?

MR. CHAIRMAN: At 10:00 p.m., we can continue for a number of minutes anyway. So if you can wrap up whatever questioning you do have in fifteen or twenty minutes...

MR. WARREN: I think that my questions could mean a long night, but if you're not going to break -

MR. CRANE: Well, I don't know about you, Mr. Chairman, but I'm not intending to go all night. I've been on the go since 7:00 a.m..

MR. WARREN: Yes, I'm the same way, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HARRIS: I have a meeting at 9:00 a.m. too. I don't think that is....

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sometimes the Committee has gone five, ten minutes to clue up. If that does not seem possible then....

MR. WARREN: It's not possible with the kind of questions that I need to ask.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the Committee in general has decided that the minister and her Department have been given a fair hearing and fair questions have been asked, then maybe we can entertain a motion.

MR. WARREN: I will make a motion now, Mr. Chairman, that we stop at 10:00 p.m. and come back at a later date.

MS. VERGE: I second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion, and it has been seconded. Do we have any comments or -

MR. PENNEY: I don't understand the motion. That we stop at 10:00 p.m. and do what?

MR. WARREN: And come back at a later date.

MR. CRANE: Another night.

MR. WARREN: At a later date suitable to the minister's schedule.

MR. PENNEY: You want to put that to a vote, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: I would like to make a comment on this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I have been involved with estimates committees for a long time. As a minister for ten years. When I was Minister of Education I recall having three sessions several years, four sessions one year. Four separate three hour sessions.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)?

MS. VERGE: I did enjoy it, actually. Some of your present colleagues were extremely long-winded. The current speaker used to make lengthy speeches about education. At any rate, there is a long established tradition that our estimates committees meet as long as we need to examine the estimates of each of the departments. That examination includes broad-ranging questions about departmental policy.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee is also master of it's own destiny.

MS. VERGE: Now we are operating under a time limit. We have a limited amount of time to examine the estimates of five departments. Our Committee has been assigned the largest spending departments. We have Health, Education, Social Services, Justice, as well as Environment and Lands.

So I would strongly support the motion. Obviously members have not exhausted their questioning. The minister began by talking about the importance of her Department.

It is not unreasonable that we have two sessions on such an important department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No. Okay, Mr. Harris you wanted to comment.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, I would like to speak to the motion as well. I am saying this I suppose in part for the benefit of members who may wish to hammer this through. I am sure the minister will be happy to come back and talk again. I think we were having an interesting discussion on lots of issues. We sometimes get chances to raise questions in the House, but this is a very good discussion about departmental policy and where we are going. We are finding out that the minister is doing some good things that we had hoped, or certainly I had hoped that they were doing.

If the members want to cut it off that is fine, but I think they should take into account that there are seventy-five hours allocated for budget debate. We can have them here in this setting or we can have seventy-five hours in the House. Who cares?

MR. CHAIRMAN: This will only be counted as three anyway, regardless of how many meetings there are.

MR. HARRIS: Pardon?

MR. CHAIRMAN: This is only counted as three hours anyway, regardless of how many meetings there are.

MR. HARRIS: Is that right?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, well that is my understanding.

MR. HARRIS: I think that this time is far more productive than the kind of rhetorical things that may go on in the House from time to time, although there are occasionally very good speeches.

I would like to urge members to not use their numbers to try and squelch the questioning of the minister in what I think we have all agreed is one of the most important departments of government.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penney.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Harris is looking at it wrong. If we decide not to stop at ten o'clock, we can go until eleven or twelve or one o'clock, and hon. members do have the opportunity to question the minister in the House of Assembly. These estimates will go to debate in the House of Assembly. There is Question Period in the House of Assembly.

MR. HARRIS: You were not here nine o'clock this morning.

MR. PENNEY: Where was I nine o'clock this morning?

MR. HARRIS: Not listening to this committee.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, I could not support that motion. I am prepared to carry on tonight.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MR. PENNEY: If the minister and her officials are prepared.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, seeing as we have had some -

MS. COWAN: I am open to whatever way we go.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. The main reason I will use is that the committee becomes the master of its own destiny. With that, I will now put the motion from the hon. Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: The hon. member for Harbour Grace wants to ask a question, I believe. He had his hand up.

MR. CRANE: No, go ahead. You are going to put the motion. I am not ready to go until eleven or twelve o'clock. I am certainly not - definitely. You can come back another night if you want to.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. The motion is that we stop at ten and return. All those in favour of the motion?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Against?

Motion carried.

MR. WARREN: I have a question or two (inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we have five minutes.

AN HON. MEMBER: Four minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, it changed in the space of my glancing. With that I will allow the hon. Member for Torngat Mountains to continue.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will just ask the minister one final question for the night. On the famous topic of Sunday hunting there has been quite a bit of debate in the last number of years. I was encouraged with the comments I read, I think it was in one of the papers a little while ago, that

the minister said that she will be making a decision soon.

We are in the middle of May now and big game hunters are anxiously waiting for two things. Number one, to know if they were successful in obtaining a license. I would like to know when the minister will be announcing when that will be released. The second thing, before this is released will the minister also be giving a statement on Sunday hunting?

MS. COWAN: When will the licenses be released?

AN HON. MEMBER: The licenses? Some time this spring, I'm not sure (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: I guess I do not know what the date is when the licenses will be announced so I would not want to commit myself. What's Gordon's last name?

MR. WARREN: Gordon Rice.

MS. COWAN: Gordon Rice. Yes, Gordon's a constituent of mine and he arranges always for the media to call me about 11:00 a.m. on Easter Sunday or whatever to keep the issue in my mind at all times. I have told him that it is third under the pile of papers on my desk. I told him that just last weekend in front of the Wildlife Association.

As you know yourself from being minister, it is an issue that is not really related to anything. In the end it is a political decision, and we have to go with what we feel is going to be generally acceptable to the population, and of course we know it is a half and half split. So it is sort of a difficult one to come to grips with. I have a personal opinion on it, but that is not really the issue in this particular case. As I said to Mr. Rice, it is the third under the pile of papers on my desk. It will be addressed soon.

MR. WARREN: Still third. So you have not taken it to Cabinet yet?

MS. COWAN: If it's third on my desk I guess it can't be in Cabinet yet.

MR. WARREN: Yes. What are number one and two?

MS. COWAN: I knew you were going to say that. Getting the WERAC committee is one of them - these are sort of short-term, nitty-gritty things I have to do. Getting the WERAC committee in place, and the second one is addressing the issue of game farming. How do you like that?

MR. WARREN: What farming?

MS. COWAN: Game farming.

MR. WARREN: Yes, the caribou.

MS. COWAN: So the first one is easy compared to the next two.

MR. WARREN: Yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WARREN: I will continue at the next meeting on the same issue, Madam Minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh my.

MS. COWAN: I do not have my schedule with me, that's the worst part.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't want to really schedule part two not knowing what the Chair of the Committee himself is....

MS. COWAN: Oh yes, that's right, you're sitting in.

MR. CHAIRMAN: He is MIA out in Vancouver, yes. Trying to save the country.

MS. VERGE: Trying to save the country.

MS. COWAN: I have a meeting of the ministers of the environment. I have to leave Thursday, so that kind of puts this week out of commission.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. It being ten o'clock the committee will adjourn until the next meeting at the call of the Chair.

MS. VERGE: The next meeting is Justice, Tuesday morning.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.