Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Harold Small, M.H.A (Baie Verte - White Bay) substitutes for Mr. John Efford, M.H.A. (Port de Grave) and Mr. Arthur Reid, M.H.A. (Carbonear) substitutes for Mr. Walter Noel, M.H.A (Pleasantville).

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Reid): Order, please!

It is almost five minutes after seven and I would like to begin if you don't mind. First of all, for the record I would like to introduce the members. My name is Art Reid, the Member for Carbonear, and I am filling in for Walter Noel, Chairman of the Committee, the Member for Pleasantville. On my right is the Vice-Chair, Lynn Verge, the Member for Humber East; on my left are William Ramsay, the Member for LaPoile, and Harold Small, the Member for Baie Verte - White Bay. I am expecting some other members shortly but there is no reason for us to delay. I would like for the minister for the record as well to introduce herself as well as her staff whom she has with her tonight. Ms. Cowan.

MS. COWAN: I am Patricia Cowan and I have with me: John Fleming, the deputy minister; David Jeans, the ADM for Environment and Wild Life; and next to him, Bob Winsor. Bob was not here the last time due to other business. He is Lands and Parks ADM. Behind here, Frank Harris, our financial wizard - if any of those exist outside of Treasury Board, right?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to first of all for the record apologise for Mr. Efford, who went off sick today.

MS. VERGE: There's an apology for him?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I also have to apologise for Mr. Warren who informed me this afternoon that he would not be here.

MS. VERGE: I don't accept that apology. He's the one who got us back here tonight!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MS. VERGE: My colleague!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Off the record then, Ms. Verge, because you've been blaming Mr. Warren for getting us back here, I am assuming that the Chair and the Vice-Chair will agree that we will not be extremely long tonight.

MS. VERGE: No, not extremely long.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I am going to give Ms. Verge a chance to begin. I am not entertaining any questions from the government side tonight at all. Ms. Verge, if she wants the hour or whatever she wants, I am going to allow her to have it. Okay. We are going to start with Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Okay, thank you. I saved my questions about Crown lands and parks for tonight, which is good since Mr. Winsor is here tonight. I believe at our first meeting the minister mentioned some plans to develop some additional cabin lots this year. Whether or not I understood that correctly, I would like to ask the minister to tell the Committee what plans there are to develop and/or lease and/or sell, or in any way make available to the citizens of the Province cabin lots over the next year. I would like some detail about where they are.

MS. COWAN: Okay. I will let Bob give you the facts on that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I just interrupt for a moment? Jack, you want identification I guess in every case, do you?

MR. JOHN OATES: Say their name.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. So when you answer, gentlemen, you're used to this. Try to say your name prior to answering a question, please. Thank you.

MR. ROBERT WINSOR: We have a three year capital budget plan here. Of course, all of this will not be in this year's estimates. I will run through it quickly, or slowly if you want, but realise that all of those may not be developed. I will explain that a little later.

In the eastern region we're looking at Goulds Pond, Beaver Pond, Hell Hill Pond -

MS. VERGE: Hell Hill?

MR. WINSOR: Hell Hill, which is on the southern shore.

MS. VERGE: How do you spell that?

MR. WINSOR: H-E-L-L.

MS. VERGE: Oh!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: I will say "Hades" if you prefer.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MR. WINSOR: Third Pond Road, and Valley Pond.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Where's Valley Pond?

MR. WINSOR: Valley Pond is in the Heart's Content area. Third Pond Road and Valley Pond both, Heart's Content Barrens.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it's not the Heart's Content Barrens. It is the Line Road area going into Heart's Delight.

MR. WINSOR: Okay. We commonly refer to all that area as Heart's Content Barrens, anything between the two bays there, but....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Valley Pond.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: You want to run over and get me an application now for to grab a piece of land on Valley Pond? No, continue, I'm sorry, you go ahead.

MR. WINSOR: It's quite okay, quite okay. But if you don't get one next year they will realise that we are not partisan here. It is a pretty good chance you won't (Inaudible).

Western region, we are looking at Taylor's Brook, Sop's Arm area. Old Man's Pond. Howley Road and Bonne Bay Big Pond. Again, I guess there is still some land at Bonne Bay Big Pond. Labrador region, we are looking at Grand Lake Road, which is just north of Goose Bay.

MS. VERGE: I am sorry, I'm having trouble hearing. What in Labrador?

MR. WINSOR: Grand Lake Road.

MS. VERGE: Grand Lake, okay.

MR. WINSOR: Central region, we are looking at a phase development at Gander Lake that is at the west end of Gander Lake; Big Pond; and several remote locations - Little Salmon Pond, Long Pond, Island Pond, Paradise Lake, Traverse Pond, and Square Pond. Now don't ask me please where the Island Pond is.

MS. VERGE: No, I (Inaudible) -

MR. WINSOR: Because there are at least a thousand of those. Second only to Gull Pond.

MS. VERGE: Okay. I would like to zero in on the western region and ask for more details about what you have in mind for the four areas you listed in the western region.

MR. WINSOR: Okay. Taylor's Brook - Sop's Arm, we are talking about forty lots.

MS. VERGE: Forty.

MR. WINSOR: Four zero.

MS. VERGE: Where is that in relation to Bowater's lodge?

MR. WINSOR: I can't be sure on that because this is preliminary. As I said, this is a three year development plan.

MS. VERGE: The whole thing or just Taylor's Brook?

MR. WINSOR: It says Taylor's Brook - Sop's Arm, so which part of Taylor's Brook I'm not sure.

MS. VERGE: Okay. So for Taylor's Brook - Sop's Arm you have in mind developing forty cabin lots over a three year period. Am I understanding you correctly?

MR. WINSOR: Yes.

MS. VERGE: Is there a map available showing where?

MR. WINSOR: I am sure I can get you a map. I do not have one tonight but I can get you one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can you provide that map for Ms. Verge? So that will answer her questions for her. I think if you get the map for that area Lynn that should clear it up.

MR. WINSOR: No problem. I can provide Ms. Verge with up to date information on any of those as we have it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It will show on the map where the location of the lots are and everything, I would think.

MR. WINSOR: Maybe. That will come in the explanation which I will give. When you are satisfied on the locations here I would like to elaborate a little.

MS. VERGE: I know where Sop's Arm and Taylor's Brook are. Where is Old Man's whatever it is?

MR. WINSOR: Old Man's Pond is north of Bay of Islands. It is north of Humber Arm on the Bay of Islands, between there and Middle Arm.

MS. VERGE: Oh, between Deer Lake and -

MR. WINSOR: If you go out the Goose Arm road. You know the area now.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Is it anywhere near the infamous Frenchman's Pond? You know the one, Cox's Cove, water, sewers.

MR. WINSOR: Same general location, yes.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Yes.

MR. WINSOR: But it is not part of the watershed.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MR. WINSOR: I hope. No, it's not.

MS. VERGE: How many lots there?

MR. WINSOR: Thirty.

MS. VERGE: That's over three years too, is it?

MR. WINSOR: Yes.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MR. WINSOR: Howley Road, that's the other one. We are looking at eighty trailer sites there.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's not on a pond.

MS. VERGE: Is that in a gravel pit?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, it's along the road.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MR. WINSOR: We'd please most Newfoundlanders if we put it in a gravel pit, I'm sure. But no, I do not think it's planned for a gravel pit. And another fifteen at Bonne Bay Big Pond.

MS. VERGE: Fifteen. Okay. What procedure will we use for giving people a chance to compete for these and then selecting which people will get them?

MR. WINSOR: Any lots that we develop have to go on public draw. That is government policy long established.

MS. VERGE: So the policy of the last several years will continue?

MR. WINSOR: Yes, the same policy is in place.

MS. VERGE: That would apply to everything that you just listed, in all regions.

MR. WINSOR: Yes, anything that we develop with government funds.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you go to another question, can I introduce (inaudible)?

MS. VERGE: Oh sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Also joining us is the Member for St. John's East, Mr. Harris, and Mr. Hearn from St. Mary's - The Capes.

Go ahead Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

Actually at our last meeting, in Mr. Winsor's absence, I was asking about the status of the transfer of the railway land from the federal government to the Province. I mentioned that I would check on that periodically by calling Mr. Winsor, or Geri Lutz, and I think the last time I checked was in January and I was told it would be at the end of February. Where is it now and when do you think it will actually happen?

MR. WINSOR: Right now it is still with the federal government, although we are working closely with them. The last word we have from the federal government is that the transfers should be ready to be signed by sometime in June. I can explain that most of the delay on this one - there are two agreements - the transfer agreement has to do with inspecting surveys. All of the line from St. John's to Port aux Basques is surveyed. All of the yards are surveyed. There are about 2,000 third-party interest railway crossing, etc., and there are volumes and volumes of survey material. So we have had a surveyor under contract to examine the documents, and there have been some changes that we required. When it comes back we want the description to be accurate, and of course the feds do as well.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

MR. WINSOR: So that is the delay.

AN HON. MEMBER: Trestles and bridges.

MS. VERGE: The Chair would like me to ask you about bridges and trestles?

MR. WINSOR: Bridges and trestles and culverts, there is a provision in the transfer agreement for dealing with them. Government is not yet sure what we want to do, or what government wants to do with the land when it comes back. There have been a lot of proposals, a lot of interest shown, from forest access roads to hiking trails and everything in between, so it is not certain which bridges should go and which will have to stay - the same with the culverts.

So the agreement calls for the transfer of the land to put it under The Crown Lands Act and under the administration of our department, but an approximate five year period in which the two governments can decide on which bridges will go and which ones are to be retained, and the bridges and culverts which have to be removed will be removed by Transport Canada or CN.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I ask another question on that point? You do not mind, do you?

MS. VERGE: Well okay. I have another one to ask but you go ahead.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Along that same line, is there any decision made yet on quarries?

MR. WINSOR: No, there is no decision on any land used for the right-of-way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you know what I am talking about? You do?

MR. WINSOR: I think I probably do, but there has been no decision on any land that I am aware of.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Will that be made in June?

MR. WINSOR: I cannot be sure of that. When the land comes back it is treated as Crown land, but the administration of quarries does not come under our department, it comes under another department so they can issue a quarry lease without reference to us, but I think that they would be constrained by the same constraints that we have and that is, that we have been asked not to alienate any portion of the rail line until such time as we do a plan for the overall thing.

MS. VERGE: I would like to ask the minister about the process of planning for the use of the railway land. The government has known for several years now that the railway was being closed and the land eventually was coming to the Province, what work has been done on developing a policy and a plan for future use of the railway land?

MS. COWAN: Okay, thank you. I will refer that to John.

MR. FLEMING: There has been a look as Mr. Winsor, indicated, at the various kinds of uses or request for use if you will, and they have been catalogued and compiled. I think the primary piece of work that needs to be done and still to be completed is to look at the notion of the rails to trails. There is a study being done under the rails to trails coalition I think they call themselves, partly funded by government and this is a study that looks right across the Island at the idea of recreational trails for a variety of purposes utilizing primarily the rail bed, so that is the primary other piece of information that has to come in before we can put it altogether and perhaps look at it in its totality.

MS. VERGE: But that rails for trails report is about finished, is it not? Is not that due to be presented to the government any day now?

MR. FLEMING: I think so, in fact I think that the deadline for the submission of the report from the consultant to the coalition I think is overdue. I think it is a little late; I think I saw something in the press about that recently.

MS. VERGE: Coming back to cabin development and Frenchman's Pond, I would like to ask the minister what went wrong with Frenchman's Pond? Frenchman's Pond has been chosen by the government and the community of Cox's Cove as the source of the future Cox's Cove water supply, yet, over the past several years, the government has allowed cabin development around that pond, and I am told, although you may correct me, I am told that stipulations in Crown leases for cabins about sewerage disposal were violated, conditions about the positioning of cabins in relation to the pond were violated and several of the cabins, about twenty of the cabins, have had to be removed with the owners compensated and remaining cabin owners say that they are going to have to be bought out as well, and of course all this led to the fuss and mess of last winter with the government firing Cox's Cove council largely over the issue of who was going to bear the responsibility for the compensation. What went wrong there _

MS. COWAN: Okay, I will ask one of the officials. That was at the time when I was ill and I am not up to date on the topic. I should have -

MS. VERGE: Well actually, it would have happened over a period of years.

MS. COWAN: Well it did, over a period of time but things sort of came to a head. If one of you would like to refer to that, please.

MR. FLEMING: I can start this and perhaps Bob can fill in the details. I do not think that anything substantive did go wrong. I think there were, in very technical instances perhaps, cases of people not complying with the letter of the title that they had with respect to positioning of their cabins or the method of sewerage disposal, but in general, what happened was that, when the cabins were given permission to go there, it was not then contemplated that it would be the water supply for Cox's Cove.

MS. VERGE: I am told that was true for the majority but that after the decision had been made to have the future water supply from the pond, people built cabins. You know there was an aerial photograph that was at the Cox's Cove community council taken a couple of years ago. If you compare that with what is on the ground or what was on the ground when the government started paying compensation or offering compensation, there was a difference.

MR. FLEMING: I think if that is the case it would have only been on leases or permits which had already been given. Is that the case, Bob?

MR. B. WINSOR: Yes, that is the case. There were several leases there which nothing had been constructed on. I think you are aware that when someone gets a lease there is a certain term, a development term we call it during which they must develop the lease.

We of course were not party to making the pond a water supply. That is another department again, but I am quite safe in saying that after we were asked to put a stop to construction there, in other words to stop construction on the leases which had been issued, there was no further development. Any development was before we were notified that development should stop.

MS. VERGE: Was that request made by the municipality or by the Department of Municipal Affairs?

MR. B. WINSOR: As I recall it was by the DM of Municipal Affairs.

MS. VERGE: Okay, I have more questions, but if anyone else wants to ask.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will transfer for a minute to Jack or Loyola. Mr. Harris, do you want to start?

MR. HARRIS: Thank you. In the Throne Speech this year the minister said that: in the coming year priority of my government to provide additional resources to the Department of Environment and Lands to ensure environment management issues are given increased attention, allowing the government to pursue a number of significant new initiatives over the coming year to protect and enhance our physical environment.

Looking through the Budget as a whole and the estimates as a whole for your department I don't really see significant resources being provided to your department other than the clean-up monies for Makinsons, Come-by-Chance and Gander, half of which comes from the Green Plan I understand, and there is the $60,000 provided for hazardous waste programs as well as the review of provincial parks and wildlife, $738,000 is mentioned there. But looking at it overall it doesn't seem to be a massive allocation of resources here.

Am I missing something? Is there some significant allocation of resource to your department that I am missing? I see you have four more employees this year than last year from 298 to 302, but I don't see anything major in terms of new resources.

MS. COWAN: There is a total of $732,800 for new staffing positions. I believe there are three in general administration - is that right?

MR. FLEMING: That is just the amounts. This is a subhead actually, not (inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Do you want to go over it and tell them how many people are in each of those areas in expenditure?

MR. FLEMING: Generally what the new monies are for is for first of all environmental assessment to improve service to the public, for enforcement of environmental laws, for public education and outreach, the improvement of delivery of service to the public, for example, in approving water course alterations and this kind of thing. We want to devote more effort to air quality issues and finally for wildlife protection.

Now the final details of all that in terms of the approval of positions is not all approved yet. We have not got the positions and so forth through Treasury Board. But the funds have been allocated: $185,000 to general administration; there is almost $47,000 to environmental investigation that would be related primarily to enforcement; almost $30,000 to our civil and sanitary engineering division; $54,500 to our industrial environmental engineering division - that would be the stuff related to air quality; $17,000 to our water resources division in the area of surface water: $34,500 to water rights and investigations; $51,000 to environmental assessment; and over $300,000 to wildlife protection.

MR. HARRIS: That confirms my point. Other than the amount of $300,000 which seems to be significant, that the increase in the budget is made up of $20,000 here, $30,000 there, $50,000 there. I do not see this as a major thrust. I suppose that is just a matter of opinion as to whether the changes are significant. Could the minister tell us what programs other than the involvement of the government in this household waste management day in St. John's is part of the hazardous waste program referred to in the budget?

MS. COWAN: Yes. We allocated $65,000 for that day. At this stage I do not know how much was spent. There were not as many people who came out as we had anticipated. If you remember, that day turned out to be quite nasty. We did have 400 people come and just how that affected it I do not know, but we did put $65,000 into it, along with some private money and money from the City of St John's.

MR. HARRIS: That's kind of what I was asking. I saw in the budget an allocation of $65,000 for a hazardous waste program. Can you tell us what happened to that $65,000? What was that supposed to be spent for for one day in St. John's?

MS. COWAN: Alright. First of all, we had to arrange for the usual things, the advertising of it, that type of thing, the setting up. Renting and setting up of tents and so on in the Avalon Mall. I do not know whether there was any payment for rent at the Avalon Mall or if that was donated. Then the involvement of the company that collected and transported the goods to Ontario. So those would be - I do not know whether we have a breakdown further of the costs of that, but those are some of them.

MR. FLEMING: But that's only part of the cost, actually. There were contributions (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Oh yes, I mentioned that at the beginning, that there were contributions by others involved. I think we paid half of what the total cost of the thing was.

MR. HARRIS: I was left wondering, I suppose, whether this was an environmental clean up for St. John's or whether it was a public relations, or public education issue. I was not there myself. Was this intended to be a major removal of household hazardous waste, or was it intended to be public education, or what?

MS. COWAN: It was not certainly intended to be a major - this is our first step in addressing the household hazardous waste problem. It is certainly something that is difficult to deal with in most provinces because of the expense involved in dealing with household hazardous waste but we wanted to bring to the attention of people and start an education program in that and to stop people from putting paint tins, aerosol tins, and all that kind of stuff into green garbage bags which get tossed into incinerators and one thing and another. So it is a start in a public education program and, as well, did help to alleviate some of the hazardous wastes in households around the city but certainly, as a first step, that was not a major aim.

MR. HARRIS: If I may say, it sounds like a very expensive first step for a one-day program which was dependent upon the weather. Is that the extent - I mean, I see only $60,000 in the Budget for hazardous waste. We have, in addition, these admittedly potentially problematic household-type hazardous waste materials. There is, of course, the industrial hazards on which we are spending $4.6 million in three sites alone. What else does the hazardous waste program consist of? I see in the Throne Speech again a reference to the disposal of waste oil products as something that the government seeks to address in this session and I wonder is there any money devoted to that particular project and where exactly is that waste oil reference - what is that referring to and what has been done on that?

MS. COWAN: The waste oil, Mr. Harris, is being addressed through legislation, not through large expenditures of government money. The legislation will be set up in such a way that the individuals responsible for supplying the oil will also be responsible for providing a depot for the collection of waste oil and the recycling of it. There does not need to be a tremendous input of government money into that particular thing. We are making those who provide the oil responsible for its collection and eventual recycling.

MR. HARRIS: Are we talking about lubricating oils for motor vehicles and other types of industrial oils?

MS. COWAN: That's right, oils used in the industry and so on.

MR. HARRIS: Is it intended that the byproduct of this program would be re-refined, or what, exactly?

MS. COWAN: I don't know what the companies will do once they get it back. They will recycle it in some manner, but I don't know the technology involved. It will be reused.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It comes back as chain oil and different things, a lower grade of oil, Jack. I think they are doing that now in a lot of areas. I know, a company from St. John's sends a vehicle out to all the garages in Carbonear every week.

MR. HARRIS: I am aware that there are some private individuals who do some things with it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is all recycled.

MR. HARRIS: So you are going to make it mandatory for all motor oil distribution agents to collect waste oil from the same people they distribute it to?

MS. COWAN: That is correct.

MR. HARRIS: I am just wondering how you plan to handle this. For example, if Irving Oil distributes so many quarts of 10W40, are they required to collect all that up when there are oil changes coming about? Is that the idea?

MS. COWAN: Our major attempt is to crack down on industry in this particular round of legislation. I will ask the assistant deputy to elaborate on that, but our major concern is industrial waste, at this stage. About ten times the spill of the Valdez, in industrial oil, is dumped into the Canadian environment every year and we are doing our part in Newfoundland to deal with that situation.

I don't know, John, if you want to refer to Dave to talk about the specifics?

MR. DAVID JEANS: David Jeans.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you start, David. Gentlemen, you don't need to touch your microphones. In fact, the gentleman up on top goes sort of snaky when anyone touches his microphones. They are set up in such a way that you don't have to touch them. So if you would leave those - don't touch them.

MR. HARRIS: Or even speak into them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You don't even have to speak into them. He will adjust the volume for you.

TECHNICIAN: Oh, no, that's wrong!

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's wrong?

TECHNICIAN: Just pull them through, towards you a little and speak into them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you move your - okay.

MR. JEANS: Mr. Chairman, as the minister indicated, some 250,000 litres of oil disappears into the environment yearly, and that is about eight or ten times the spill that the Exxon Valdez had.

MR. HARRIS: Here in Newfoundland?

MR. JEANS: No, in Canada. So, in conjunction with the oil industry, regulations will be introduced that will require vendors of oil to take back from do-it-yourselfers and from garages and so on, oil that they have sold - not the direct oil, but so much for every litre they have sold. So we have the co-operation of the industry in doing this. It is being done now in other provinces and we will be doing it in Newfoundland.

MR. HARRIS: I think we touched on it briefly last time, Minister, but I am concerned, as well, about the speed at which the beverage container disposal issue is being dealt with. I am concerned because we see daily reminders, I suppose, of the enormous amount of wastage of containers that are being sold and introduced. Every new product that comes out is in a new container. We have our own. We are producing them through - I remember being shocked a couple of years ago when the federal government, through ACOA, gave an $800,000 grant to Browning-Harvey, for example, to start producing plastic two-litre bottles. I had visions of millions of these things ending up in the environment. I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of them they have made since then, two years ago or four years ago, I guess, now.

Why are we continuing to do that, and why is it taking so long for the government to try to get this under control? It has all kinds of ramifications, not only for the environment but also for the economy and wastage, indirectly to trade issues for things like the brewing industry. It is really long overdue. Can you give us any deadline as to when we might expect legislation?

MS. COWAN: I think, Jack, maybe you answered your own question. First of all, may I say that I think, from having been in government now for three years, that the process we are going through for the bottle legislation is practically a whirlwind. We started, just prior to the Throne Speech, working on it and we have made substantial movements towards getting legislation in place.

But, as you've mentioned, there are a number of issues, trade issues. We are making an attempt to consult very closely with everybody involved and you wouldn't believe - there are about thirty different groups that have requested meetings with me and with my officials. Since we did state that we would be in a consultative process, we are meeting with a lot of those. We have met most of them, I would say, at this stage, various lobby groups as well as actual individuals such as the breweries and people from Browning-Harvey and all that kind of thing.

So we are trying to do that consultative process. At the same time, we have a staff position totally devoted to that particular pursuit, which I am very pleased that we were able to do. That is why it is proceeding so quickly, because we have one person whose focus is nothing but beverage legislation. I cannot give you a deadline on it other than to say what I have. It has been really proceeding much faster than I have ever seen anything go in government, but we do have some trade issues and so on that we are getting clarified.

My deputy is now meeting with different officials, I don't know what their titles are, but in IGA and so on, and trying to get some of these trade issues ironed out so that we can, you know, forge forward. But that is the major concern, I would say, at the moment.

MR. HARRIS: If I may say, it is because of the large number of vested interests that this problem exists, as far as I can tell. What I would like to know the answer to is why a little province such as Prince Edward Island, who obviously place a high value on tourism and their own physical environment, are able to have legislation that prevents non-refillable containers for beverages period and enforce it and have it in place. Now, maybe they don't have the same vested interest as we have here constantly knocking on the door of government and having the ear of officials, ministers and politicians, but it would surprise me if they didn't have some vested interests who would want things the other way. I don't know if the minister can explain why it is we can't do it or why we take three years for this government to think about it. I am sure the previous government was not uninterested in the issue, either. Is there any explanation?

MS. COWAN: Well, I certainly can't explain for the last government. I am the minister now and I am doing something about it - that's all I can tell you. I am not going to take responsibility for what has happened in the last two to five years, or whatever. I mean, it is here now. I am dealing with it. I think it is a shocking problem with 80 - I can't remember the number of plastic bottles, though I have seen it in the waste stream. We had something like 80 million cans go into the waste stream a year. So, obviously, it is a pressing problem and we are proceeding with it. I mean, in these hard times we have assigned a particular staff person to it.

The environment issue you referred to, with bottles on PEI, was developed some time ago. It is somewhat easier for them to do it because they don't have the problems with geography and so on that we do. I think that may have been one of the reasons why they forged ahead. It is unfortunate that it didn't happen in this Province. As I said, I can't explain why it didn't happen, but we are doing something about it now, and that is the significant thing, as far as I'm concerned.

MR. HARRIS: I get the impression, Minister, that the efforts of the government are to try to accommodate all these vested interests so that we will still have cans being produced, we will still have plastic bottles being produced, we will still have all the people doing the same things they are doing now, but somehow or other the government will make it better by encouraging recycling, or whatever.

I can't help making a comparison when we see the government trying to change policy in other areas. It is the people, the individuals who have to make adjustments by being unemployed or by having to be retrained or to suffer in their economic life, and yet it seems that the government is going out to accommodate the businesses without their going through any period of adjustment that might end up costing them a little bit of profit. Is the minister being overly sensitive to the needs of the industries involved or is she expecting them to go through a period of adjustment that might cost them some money or some short-term profits?

MS. COWAN: Again, it depends, Jack, on the industry that you are referring to. There are a lot of people involved. There are grocery people from across Canada, the grocery association has been here to talk to us. There are a number of issues that people are suggesting we pay attention to. I would think probably if we did not consult with people that you would be one of the first people to leap to your feet to ask why we were barging ahead like bulls in a china shop without considering some of the competing interests in the Province. I am sure that you, yourself don't want to see 250 people from the brewery industry or 250 people from Browning-Harvey on the street without jobs if there is some way that we can develop a recycling program that is not going to cost a tremendous amount to the industry. Of course, in recessionary times we don't want to do that. It would be foolish of us to think otherwise. But if you are trying to suggest that somehow or other the government is overly accommodating business, then you are definitely moving in the wrong direction. There is such a thing as balance and that is what we are trying to achieve.

MR. HARRIS: My own instincts would tell me, if you had a refillable container industry, jobs, in fact, would be preserved and enhanced rather than being lost to American brewing companies.

MS. COWAN: Talking about refilling, what are you talking about? Bottles? Or are you talking about - you would prefer to see refilling rather than any kind of recycling? Is that what you are referring to?

MR. HARRIS: I'm saying that there are obviously alternatives. There are some that are far less damaging to the environment and provide for local recycling and local generated business. Now, obviously, we are not going to recycle aluminium cans in this Province. We don't have an aluminium smelter. But there are other activities that could be done.

I know the minister says that her department and her officials are working on it - she didn't say day and night, but I do gather there is a sense of urgency. Can we have any estimate as to when we might see these measures being brought forth for public debate for introduction to the House?

MS. COWAN: They will be brought forth, Jack, when I feel that - and when Cabinet feels; Cabinet will be ultimately involved in making the decisions - that we have legislation that takes into account all those items that you brought to the fore when you opened your statement here this evening. We are doing that quickly, as I reiterate. We do have a full-time person working on that particular issue. We hope it will be done within the year, as suggested there, within the first session of the House, which to me meant either spring or fall.

That is all I can give. I can't give you a time frame. It would certainly be grand if I could say it would be done next week or something. But we have made a commitment to do this properly. I am not going to be part of a slipshod thing that brings something into the Province that hasn't been thoroughly investigated. That's about it.

MR. HARRIS: I have some sympathy for the minister because I can imagine she is being lobbied to death, particularly by industry, which has big bucks to spend on lobbying. So I have some sympathy for her. There may come a time when the process of consultation is one thing, but having to -

MS. COWAN: When decisions have to be made.

MR. HARRIS: - tolerate the continuous lobbying, which has the effect of stalling things, is quite another. I look forward to seeing the legislation.

MS. COWAN: One of the points I could make, Mr. Chair - Mr. Chair, do you mind if I make a point? There is a Canadian packaging protocol in which all Canadian manufacturers are required by the year 2000 to have cut down to one-half the amount of packaging that goes into the waste stream. So these lobby groups you talk about are very much aware of that legislation. In fact, there are deadlines for it. One of the deadlines is this year, 1992. I think, at this stage, they have reached 60 per cent of the goal that was set by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment.

So the lobbyists who are coming to see me are very much aware of that legislation and are not as 'anti-' as you might anticipate. Now, I've met a couple of really hard-headed groups, dinosaur-type groups, but the majority of them realise that this is something that is inevitable. What they are trying to do is to address the issue in ways that are cost-effective for them and meet our goals as a province.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hearn, do you have some questions for the minister? By the way, I am doing this out of grace, because you have not been formally recommended to us by your Leader or anyone. So I am doing you a favour because I attempted to insult you earlier tonight.

MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that and I will remember it for a later time.

I have a couple of brief questions. First of all I would like to ask the minister if Cabinet or her department has made a final decision on the caribou ranch proposal in Peter's River yet.

MS. COWAN: How did I know you were going to ask me that question tonight, Loyola? As soon as you came in the door I thought that. No, but very close to it. I mentioned last week when we met that it was three short-term goals that I was addressing in the next two weeks.

MR. HEARN: The other question is in relation to - I won't say the youth because I am not against the youth, but I am becoming more and more against the abuse of all-terrain vehicles. It is becoming an extremely serious situation around the countryside, and it is at the point now where you can't walk anywhere anymore. If you want to go to the old trouting hole you need long rubbers now to get in there, not to go trouting but to walk in the paths. Where you had grassy woods paths before, now you have a sea of bog.

Unfortunately, a lot of the environmental damage and disruption that has been caused is indirectly a result of the different types of all-terrain vehicles that we have, once again not necessarily because we have them or use them, but because of the abuse that goes with them.

A few years ago, if you wanted a meal of trout, you know, it was a ten minutes from your home type of thing, and you had your ponds where you would always get a few. If you wanted a good day in the country, if you walked an hour or so you could be sure there would be very few or no one around. That is all gone now because of accessibility, and the ponds are depleted of trout. Our partridge have been wiped out, a lot of it because of indiscriminate hunting from the machine, I will say, not because of the use of the machine even, to get inside, but even killing birds from the machine. It is the same way with other animals, caribou, moose and what have you.

Besides that, the countryside has been torn to ribbons in many areas. Instead of developed paths there is just indiscriminate use all over the place. Left behind, in places where only angels feared to tread years ago, you see garbage bags and everything else. Because now, with your machines, you can bring in whatever you want and, unfortunately, most of it is left behind, the two dozen beer bottles in the case, and the garbage bag of everything else.

You know, something has to be done and done soon to stop it or everything that we are trying to protect for our own youngsters is going to be gone. We have seen the cod depleted, we have seen the salmon stocks decimated, we have seen the sea birds going because of pollution. Now we are seeing our own countryside spoiled, and the foreigners are not doing it, we are doing it ourselves.

MS. COWAN: Yes, that's right.

MR. HEARN: I am just wondering, you know, if legislation - and, as I said, we have to be careful, because when you talk about all-terrain vehicles, everybody will think, 'They are against them. They are going to wipe them out. We can only use them on the road.' And then they find out, 'We can't use them on the roads either,' so they are going to get rid of them. But I think there is a place for them. I mean, people use them for worthwhile purposes, getting firewood, and people who can't get in other places have to use them, and what have you. Indiscriminate use, I think, is really what I am concerned about.

MS. COWAN: Well, I did mention this somewhat last week. We are, as you are probably aware, addressing the wetlands, bogs area, at this time. We do have a problem, as you said, a serious problem. We have about 35,000 ATVs in the Province at the moment.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-five thousand!

MS. COWAN: Yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-five thousand!

AN HON. MEMBER: And growing bigger.

MS. COWAN: So the damage you have seen, when you hear those figures you can see why. We have started now - we have a person; she is not working full-time but almost. About three quarters of her time is donated to particularly developing legislation that will address the damage that is going on in the bogs and wetland areas and that again is something that is top priority with us. There was another point I was going to make but it just slipped my mind. Did you want to say anything else while I try to recall the point about the ATVs? There was something that crossed my mind there when you were talking. Oh, yes, I know what it was:

Interestingly enough - one of the things - I expected to have more of a negative reaction, you know, to the proposed legislation, but it would seem that a number, a vast majority of people share your particular point of view. Now, we may find some difference once we put the legislation in place and start cracking down on people, but at this stage it has been very, very positive and I think that is good.

Now, at the meeting last week, Ms. Verge asked, if we know of areas that are particularly damaged and particularly vulnerable, whether it would be possible to bring in some legislation to address those particular spots.

MS. VERGE: For this summer?

MS. COWAN: For this summer, yes, and that is something we are taking a look at; I can't make any promises to her but I thought it was a good idea, so we are taking a look at that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just make a -

MR. HEARN: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You are going to stay on the ATV question, are you?

MR. HEARN: Yes, related to it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Because I want to make a comment after you do. Go ahead.

MR. HEARN: About a month ago, I had the opportunity to attend the Rural Development annual regional meetings, which encompassed a very large geographic area. They had a few guests at the meeting. One of them happened to be a biologist from your department, who did a slide presentation on, basically not only ATVs, that was just part of it, but generally, what we are doing to the environment, and I have to say that it was dead on. And there were people there from all walks of life, avid hunters, people who spend a lot of time in the woods, using vehicles or not using them, people who fish and what have you.

But it covered - well, in one case it showed more secluded areas that have been untouched, which most areas were a few years ago - two areas which, a few years ago were untouched and now are just torn to bits by the indiscriminate use of machines. Also, you know, the dumping of garbage, and it just goes to show what we, as individuals are really doing to our countryside. The reaction afterwards that night - and there were, as I said, a lot of avid, outdoors people there - was extremely positive, because he created an awareness and it was really hitting home to them. I mean, the pond I went to as a kid, I can't get to anymore, there are no trout left in it; or, where I could take a gun and go down to the stage across the road and shoot a duck in the wintertime for dinner, you don't even see a duck within miles. We can go on and on and on, and, as I said, you know, we are doing it ourselves and if we continue to do it, there will be nothing left at all.

But the presentation, I thought, was done exceptionally well. And without putting in a plug for the individual, you know, whether it be he or anybody else in the department who would do that in schools, in particular, I think, that is so important, just the creation of the awareness of what we are doing to our environment. Because the very people who are complaining - what really gets me, is I drive up the Southern Shore and I hear people on Open Line asking, 'When is government going to clean up the sides of the road?' and I just wonder, how many bottles did I or Bob Winsor throw out through the window? For the very people who are talking are the ones ahead of you who are stopping at Mary Browns, throwing out the box and the empty beer bottle and everything else, and you know, the costs that are incurred by government, really, they are tax dollars to do what they shouldn't have to do in the beginning.

MS. COWAN: Shane is a very -

MR. HEARN: Shane Mahoney, it was, yes.

MS. COWAN: Yes, he is a very persuasive speaker, and actually he speaks constantly and he is in schools quite frequently. Everyone seems to have, you know, your reaction. They are really moved and motivated and whatnot by his presentation. In fact, I am hoping to plan some sort of a way that he can address both your caucus and ours, and Jack you are most certainly welcome to attend to, at a later date. Because I think the more we all know about this and the more we all can work to solve the problem the better it will be.

One of the salary allocations in our budget is for community awareness, an outreach type of program. We are hoping to get into that area much more where we are going out to schools. We just really have not had the resources. Shane does that on his own time, really, because he is such a committed person. That is very typical of people in Environment. They have a real sense of caring about the work they are doing and it makes it a good place to actually work in.

But I felt that was a real problem when I came into the Department. We have so many communities and we are getting approached all the time. Whether it is the Catholic Women's League, whether it is the Lions Club, the Boy Scouts, young women involved in groups - they are all calling into the office asking: what can we do? We did not have the resources to tell them: you can plug in here and get money there, and you can do this and you can do that. That is what we are going to do now.

Now you may notice when you are looking - and this refers too to the question that was asked by Jack a bit earlier - when you are looking at the budget, it looks as if we haven't put in enough salary for these particular people. It is because some of them will not be hired until part of the year is past. So next year's budget I guess would reflect better the full expenditure. Some of the people will be very hard to find, for one thing, so that has been taken into consideration in the budget that we have prepared. But that outreach thing I am quite pleased about and hopefully we can get someone of his calibre to lead that particular program.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to make just a quick comment to you, Minister. In your legislation - and I hope I get the opportunity to have some input into that legislation - make sure that you do not forget the safety operational part of the vehicle as well. Now I know it will probably end up under the authority of the Ministry of Transportation. Okay? It will end up there. But if there is not some connection between Transportation and your Department it may get lost along the way.

The reason I am saying that to you, just Friday night past my daughter, who is fifteen years old, and her best friend, were at a weekend get-together of kids fifteen years old. They were riding a trike. Her friend got her foot caught between the back mud guard and the tire.

MS. COWAN: Oh dear.

MR. CHAIRMAN: She is at the Janeway Hospital now. They could not do anything for her in Carbonear. The foot is literally destroyed with a trike. It is just unbelievable the damage that it's done to that little girl's foot. You'd hardly think that a machine could do as much damage as that. I think that it is very important that when you are doing your legislation as it relates to all-terrain vehicles then there has to be some connection between your legislation and the legislation that would possibly follow from the Department of Transportation as it relates to operations and helmets and all the other things that must go along with the operation of an all-terrain vehicle, or any vehicle for that matter. I want to make that suggestion to you. I think your staff understands what I am saying here. Okay.

MS. COWAN: I've seen some terrific accidents. When I was teaching school I saw some terrific accidents with children. Saw the results of them, you know.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to go back to Ms. Verge now.

MS. VERGE: I would like to ask about air pollution. I noticed when you were listing what you regard as the worst threats to the environment that air pollution was near the top of the list. Tonight when you were talking about the plans for additional resources that are being made available to your Department this year you mentioned strengthening the Industrial Environmental Engineering Division to try to combat air pollution.

As you know, I represent part of Corner Brook. In the neighbourhood of Corner Brook in which I live we are subjected to air pollution from the paper mill, from the cement plant, from the hospital, and from homes where wood and garbage are being burned for home heat. For years now the provincial Department of Environment has been making a pathetic attempt to monitor pollution. There are a couple of dishes. I do not think the department yet knows what the quality of the air in Corner Brook is like, but for the people who live there there is a visible problem with particulate, certainly from the cement plant, from the paper mill, and as far as we know from both the hospital and homes. I do not know that anyone has quantified it - apart from the cement which is distinctive - put any measurement on the different sources.

Then, of course, there are the invisible chemicals. There are a couple of physicians, as well as the Humber Environment Action Group, which maintain that the air - at least in particular the air during certain wind conditions in certain locations - is a health hazard. It aggravates some people's health problems.

I would like to ask what your assessment of the Corner Brook air quality is; what your plans are to address the problems, to improve the situation; and to discuss the challenges of coming to grips with the industrial pollution in a time when industry is hurting. The newsprint and cement markets are difficult (inaudible). What are you going to do nevertheless about the air pollution problem in Corner Brook?

MS. COWAN: I will let one of the officials address Corner Brook specifically, but we recognize your problem not just in Corner Brook but other pockets around the Province and generally SO₂. We have our part to play in the SO₂ battle. We have joined forces with the rest of the provinces in Canada, and we have our allotment that we are supposed to reduce in this Province, and each province has been portioned a certain amount to get rid of. That would be our supreme concern at this time, SO₂, because of acid rain. That is a major threat in the Province.

MS. VERGE: Could I interject here?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MS. VERGE: Since you identify SO₂ - that is sulfuric acid, is it? Is that what you call that?

MS. COWAN: SO₂ is -

AN HON. MEMBER: Sulfur dioxide.

MS. COWAN: Sulfur dioxide.

MS. VERGE: Oh, I am sorry. I do not remember my chemistry.

MS. COWAN: That is alright. I never took chemistry.

MS. VERGE: Where does the sulfur dioxide that is plaguing us come from? What are the sources?

MS. COWAN: In Corner Brook you mean?

MS. VERGE: No, I mean in the Province.

MS. COWAN: Oh, generally in the Province.

Hydro is the worst offender. In fact my staff just had their annual meeting yesterday with the top people in hydro and we are addressing a number of issues related to that. I have not had an opportunity to have a report back from them yet, but one of my concerns this year is to really work on addressing the high levels that are coming from the hydro plant.

MS. VERGE: What about SO₂ from Cape Breton Island or other parts of the "mainland"?

MS. COWAN: Is that drifting this way, you mean? Well again I have to ask somebody else to comment on it but they are all committed, of course those provinces, to reducing their amount of SO₂ going into the atmosphere as well. So hopefully that will have positive benefit for us, but I will let David elaborate on just how much. I know some comes, but how much I do not know.

MR. JEANS: The long range transportation of air pollutants, Ms Verge, is a pretty complex chemistry that occurs and sulphur dioxides and nitrogen oxides emitted in other provinces can travel thousands of kilometres and in that course it usually becomes changed and you get a sulphate fallout and you get acid rain. That is what causes acid rain. We have measured low PH, in other words high levels of acid, in rain on occasions in conjunction with a particular storm moving in, but the sulphur is emitted from industry, generally from fuels as it is a part of oil. There is always a sulphur content in oil that varies depending on the fuel used so that is the kind of problem. We do not measure SO₂ directly from other provinces. I do not think you would detect it. By the time it gets here it is probably changed so that you can just measure the fallout of acid rain. We do, do that, but we measure SO₂ in the vicinity of industrial operations. As you are aware we have measured in the vicinity of the Corner Brook pulp and paper mill and we have on rare occasions exceeded our limits. Corner Brook is a special area. It is a set in a bowl-like setting and you do not get the kind of winds we do here in St. John's so at times you can get an inversion and you can get a higher concentration of air pollutants than at other times. Generally our measurements are finding that air pollution is usually within the standards that we have in place except for some very rare excursions, shall we say.

MS. VERGE: It seems that over the past few years the air quality in Townsite, the part of Corner Brook in a valley, in the path that the prevailing wind takes, the paper mill emissions have been noticeably worse than for many years previous. In particular it seems since Kruger took over operating the mill the air quality has deteriorated. Now, nobody seems to know exactly what the problem is but we know there is a problem. It is particularly bad in certain types of weather conditions. Part of it is irritating and it's thought is bothersome to people with certain types of asthmatic or bronchial conditions. Part of it is a visual problem. There is a steam, smog, or haze over a lot of the downtown area, as I assume you know, to the point that the arterial road next to the mill has to be closed periodically. I do not really get a sense that anyone is coming to grips with this. My impression is that because of the cost or because of the fear that getting serious would upset the company and jeopardize the jobs and the economic activity, that really the government is just acquiescing in all this and letting it drift on.

MR. JEANS: I would like to comment on that. We have been dealing with the company and they are going to put a new bark boiler in. That is, I think, at about a $40 million cost and there has been a deferral given for a year. That is to be in now by June 1993.

MS. VERGE: Well, this is the fourth deadline, or it may be the fifth deadline.

MR. JEANS: I think there has been three or four changes.

MS. VERGE: Are you reasonably confident that this is actually going to happen by the latest deadline?

MR. JEANS: We certainly hope so.

MS. VERGE: Now, I understand that new boiler will solve most of the visible particulate problem.

MR. JEANS: It will avoid the use of high sulfur fuel. They will be using bark. With the pollution controls on it we should have a minimization of particulate as well, and elimination or reduction of sulfur dioxide.

MS. VERGE: Oh, I see, okay. Now, does anyone have a handle on the air pollution that is being caused by the hospital which burns wood chips and oil, both I think, for heat, or from homes burning wood and garbage for heat?

MR. JEANS: No, we do not have a break out between - we realise that Corner Brook and other towns like Grand Falls certainly have a high proportion of wood-burning stoves and that undoubtedly in wintertime contributes to particulate. But we do not have any measurements that distinguish between the particulate generated in homes and that as produced by industrial operations.

MS. VERGE: Would there be some kinds of garbage or materials that people are burning in their homes for heat that are particularly problematic, that people should be advised or instructed not to burn?

MR. JEANS: No, I don't believe so. Generally they are burning wood. They probably burn some of their home garbage, which would be paper I suppose, carton board, this kind of thing.

MS. VERGE: How difficult would it be to measure the air quality periodically to try to give a comprehensive reading of the acceptability of the air quality?

MR. JEANS: We are measuring air quality continuously in the Corner Brook area -

MS. VERGE: But my impression is that the measurements are incomplete. There are dishes that measure one component and there are gizmos that measure something else. Is there anything that really gives a comprehensive reading?

MR. JEANS: No. We are measuring two main things. We are measuring sulfur dioxide and we are measuring particulate, or solid matter. There are different types of instruments used to measure those two.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Are they the only problem chemicals or substances -

MR. JEANS: They are the general emission, general air pollutants, that you get in industrial areas. Sulfur dioxide, and some nitrous oxides from automobile exhausts and so on. But generally, sulfur dioxide and particulate matter.

MS. VERGE: Okay. What about the cement plant? The people living near the cement plant say that despite the modernization efforts of the past few years there is still an unacceptable amount of cement dust being emitted. There are stories that at night occasionally, when there are problems, the employees turn off the control devices and clean out the system. Whether or not that is true I can't say, but I know that I get complaints from constituents.

MR. JEANS: I really can't comment. I've heard those stories too, but none of our measurements and our discussions with plant management have indicated that is occurring. We have told them that we have heard rumours of that nature but they deny it and we have no reason to believe otherwise.

MS. VERGE: I corresponded with your Department about the cement plant I think about a year ago, and the reply that I received indicated that yes, there is a problem, and it is because the plant is old. The inference is that as long as that plant operates there is going to be a problem. Is that your conclusion?

MR. JEANS: Yes, it is an old plant, and I think you will always get some fallout. But they have made considerable improvements in the last number of years. We have not had the kind of complaints we got five, six years ago.

MS. VERGE: Thank you.

MS. COWAN: We'll certainly, if I may too, Mr. Chair, continue to monitor that. Don't hesitate to ask about it again.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. In fact, one of my questions that Ms. Verge asked in a different way was about acid rain and about Cape Breton. I was going to ask: how much acid rain do we get from Cape Breton? I know they burn coal there for electricity and I know everybody is going to slow down the amount, et cetera. Do we measure on the south coast dealing with prevailing westerly wind? I've heard people from the south coast refer to this as a problem from the Cape Breton area. Are we continuing to measure the affects of acid rain on our wilderness, and what changes are we seeing, if any?

MS. COWAN: Okay, Dave.

MR. JEANS: Yes, we measure acid rain. We have stations at Cormack, Gros Morne, Hope Brook, two at Terra Nova, one at Bay d'Espoir, and one in Salmonier. These are monitored regularly. That measures rain as it falls and the acidity therein. We also do water quality analysis at many streams and rivers throughout the Province on a going basis to see if there are any trends or changes in water quality as a result of acid rain or any other -

MR. HARRIS: What are the trends? What are we seeing? I know some people who were involved in that type of activity a few years ago. I know when the Province first started measuring this people were appalled at what they found. Have we seen any trend changes in the last couple of years?

MR. JEANS: There has been moderate improvement in the quality of the rain falling. It is not as acid as it once was, and this has reflected the reductions in sulfur dioxide emissions right across Canada, and particularly in central Canada. They have also changed the -

MR. HARRIS: Are we seeing that here in our readings in Cormack and in Hope Brook and -

MR. JEANS: Yes, we have noticed some trends downwards. We want it to go farther yet. Because we still think that the levels are such that moderately sensitive areas could be affected over the long term. We are not seeing this in our water bodies. We are not seeing the pH of our lakes and streams going down as has happened on the mainland. Nova Scotia has lost twelve or thirteen salmon rivers because of this phenomenon. But we are noticing that the pH of the rainfall has gone up a little bit. As measured in terms of sulphate fallout, which is another criterion, there has been a marked improvement. But now people are concerned that perhaps the criteria should be even lower to protect very sensitive areas. So we are on a favourable trend, I guess, to sum it up.

MR. HARRIS: Okay, thanks. Again on, well, air quality, I suppose acid rain is not exactly air quality. But in the issue of air quality, I was quite surprised to learn that the air quality measurements that the Department has been making in the Long Harbour - Placentia area were not being made available to the public. I don't think that the Department particularly has anything to hide in this area, do they? I wonder if the minister could advise why it was CBC was complaining the other day that they were forced to go to Freedom of Information to get access to air quality readings. This leads the public to have a concern about what the government is or is not doing, or is or is not trying to hide and as I said, I do not think the department has anything to hide and why would you want to give the public the impression that there was something to be concerned about by refusing access to this information?

MS. COWAN: I do not think, Mr. Chairman, if I may, that there is certainly any feeling in the public that we are trying to hide anything, we are acting in a prudent manner. Anything of that nature is always put through the Department of Justice sieve before it is released to the public, just to make sure that there is no information there that might have to be used in the future in any lawsuits or anything that might develop.

That does not mean that we think there are going to be any lawsuits coming out of that, but it is just a prudent and cautious measure. I am sure that down the road you again, Jack, would be the first person to condemn us if, and you being a lawyer could relate to it, if we indiscriminately gave out information that we would want to use later in prosecution.

MR. HARRIS: Well, you know, constant references to me being a lawyer, I do not see how that has anything to do with it. It is no more different than environmental readings taken at the weather office out at Torbay. I mean, this is information that is collected on behalf of the public about the, you know - through instruments of what air quality is and it strikes me that this is information of a highly public nature as opposed to proprietary problems that the government has or evidentiary problems that the government has. I am at a loss to understand why the department would have to require someone to go through a Freedom of Information process in order to get access to this. What kind of information is it that requires this kind of vetting? With all due respect, it sounds like an answer that someone gave you and did not give any explanation for it, because I do not see what interest the government would have or why it would require any legal vetting to give out this kind of information, unless the government was not satisfied that its procedures were proper or something like that.

MS. COWAN: I think that again is just your particular interpretation of it, Mr. Harris. We certainly feel that we have to, as I said earlier, act in a responsible manner and we do want to put it through the Freedom of Information Act. If the Justice Department sees no reason why that can't be released then it will be fully released and available.

MR. HARRIS: Have you obtained a legal opinion saying that you are required to go through Freedom of Information to release this air qualities thing?

MS. COWAN: It is just standard procedure that we do that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Has it always been that way?

MS. COWAN: Always.

MR. HARRIS: Always has to me.

MS. COWAN: Yes. Go ahead, John Fleming.

MR. FLEMING: Well, particularly, the request in this case is for reports that pertain to one particular operation, one particular company.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is the reason, okay.

MR. FLEMING: It is standard procedure for us when people request information of that nature to ask them to go through the Freedom of Information Act. That is what we have done in this case.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, are you finished?

MR. HARRIS: No.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No? Okay. I will give you another question, anyway.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I hope more than one more question.

I wanted to touch on one area. I don't want to be negative all the time so I won't be. I want to say something positive about what I see in the environment which pleases me very much. Even as a resident of St. John's, those of us who live here have noticed over the last number of years the increasing amount of wildlife present in the city. There are ducks all over the place. I have seen loons in ponds very near to St. John's. Last Sunday morning I saw salt water ducks off Red Head in Flatrock, dozens of them. I think we are seeing an improvement in - and I am not sure what the exact reason for that is. Maybe people aren't killing everything they see move anymore and there is more of them around.

AN HON. MEMBER: Change of attitude, boy.

So there is a bit of a change of attitude and I -

MR. RAMSAY: They're recycling it.

MR. HARRIS: The Member for LaPoile says they are recycling it - I don't know, but we do see a little bit of a change of attitude. I think people are very happy to see these kinds of improvements. The stream, the Rennie's River system that runs through the city has a very positive impact not only on the quality of life in the city but also people's attitudes towards the environment, wildlife and interest in protecting and preserving our environment.

I am quite disturbed, as are the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes and other members, as to what is happening to our wilderness areas, in part, through the use or misuse of all-terrain vehicles.

Has the government given consideration in looking at this? Obviously, it is not a simple problem. But has government given consideration to perhaps empowering the Cabinet to specify certain areas to be motorized-vehicle-free either for particular reasons that they are sensitive and have been damaged or to create little pockets of wilderness?

Now, we have a couple of wilderness areas - and we talked about that a little last time - large areas where the wilderness is attempted to be preserved in as natural a state as possible. But isn't it possible, and maybe the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes might have some ideas on this, as well, to have certain small areas - can't we have a wilderness pond, several ponds in a particular area designated as wilderness ponds? - and you would not be allowed to have motorized vehicles around those ponds or motor boats on the ponds.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Codroy Valley is like that.

MR. HARRIS: The member says the Codroy Valley is like that, but is this through government policy? Is there something we might be able to do to make sure that throughout the Province there are natural habitats, not only for human beings to go and enjoy, but also for the wildlife, for the partridge that are being perhaps driven away and their habitat being destroyed by a constant onslaught of motorized vehicles, winter and summer. Is that not a possible way to go? Are we being as imaginative as we could be? Enforcement is a problem, yes, but through education, I think that if the same types of presentations that are being given in the schools and perhaps to some of the groups that we have, were being given in the bars and the dart leagues and the other places where people might be made more aware of this, there would be widespread public support for this type of initiative. I wonder would the minister comment on that particular idea? It is not a brilliant one, but it is a possibility.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it is a good idea. I brought a list for you. If you recall, last week you asked for a list of wilderness and ecological reserves, and if you look at that you will notice that those reserves are in quite varying size from quite large areas to very small ones. For example, here is one that is .20 square kilometres for seabirds at Cape St. Mary's, so there is quite a variety, and yes, Cabinet can do that. I can bring recommendations forward to Cabinet for their consideration on anything from a pond to a massive area, so I will ask if you could pass that to -

MR. HARRIS: It need not be - and my suggestion is -

MS. COWAN: We will pass them out to everyone else if they would like them. Excuse me, Jack, but we just have the one copy.

MR. HARRIS: He is going to copy them, I think.

They need not be special habitats for a particular species, but they may just be for access to residents all over the Province, access to, I suppose, non-motorized habitats, so that the habitat of whatever animal or wildlife happens to be there is not disturbed and destroyed.

MS. COWAN: Yes, we can, certainly; there is no problem in our eliminating ATVs in those particular areas. In some of them, they are all eliminated, for example, our provincial parks. ATVs are not allowed within provincial parks.

You made a reference to education. We have made a fair education effort with the pine marten. We find that in schools, particularly, kids are very readily - it captures their imaginations.

I get hundreds of letters, literally, from young school children, which I enjoy reading, asking us to further our efforts to protect the pine marten. So that shows, I think, that our education program there has been very effective.

As well, we have a good education program that we use in the Burgeo area in an effort to make people realize the plight of the piping plover there. Again, children can be a great influence on the parents, as has been shown time and time again, that if you make children aware -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Exactly, the smoking example is a perfect one.

- that they will start to crack down on their parents' attitude towards other things.

They are a good group to reach, because there is a spillover there to the more irresponsible adults that many of us are.

MR. HARRIS: One final issue in the area of the quality of life in the St. John's area which, as I just commented, has been enhanced by the Rennie's River trail area and the return of waterfowl and other great interest in the ecology around St. John's, is the Pippy Park.

The government has said from time to time that it is going to put through the Outer Ring Road at some time, I think, between now and the turn of the century. There seems to be increasing pressure on the government to do this sooner rather than later. Can the minister indicate why - I am looking at the Pippy Park Annual Report. In preparing their development plan, they were told to, I believe, leave out the question of whether or not a road should go through the middle of the park, and they developed the master plan assuming that there is going to be a road. Where is the environmental assessment of that now? I know the federal government was insisting on a further environmental review. Has the Province totally closed the book on it? Is the Province satisfied that it should go as long as the federal government will permit it, or are we still able to have a full assessment of this and a further look at it and perhaps rerouting of that road?

MS. COWAN: The federal government, as you suggested, is involved in looking at it right now. The environmental assessment that was done by the Department of Environment was good for three years. Is that three years up this summer?

MR. FLEMING: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Then it would have to be re-registered and we would have to take a look at it again. It is this summer or soon.

MR. HARRIS: So, in addition to the federal review, there would have to be another provincial review before it could be approved.

MS. COWAN: John.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There would have to be a certain amount of pressure coming from Ottawa to do that, Jack. Don't forget that.

MR. FLEMING: John Fleming. It wouldn't necessarily have to be reviewed again, it would have to be registered again. Whether there is a review required is a decision to be taken at that time.

MR. HARRIS: So that is, then, the process which is ordinarily done, where people make representation to the minister and the minister decides whether a full review needs to be done again.

MR. FLEMING: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: But there would be an opportunity for public input at that point, and the decision is whether or not to have another review.

MR. FLEMING: Yes, going up to -

MS. COWAN: Yes, we have forty-five days, as I suggested.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Minister. It is good to know that this process will have further public input, even at the provincial level, before any final decision is made.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Ramsay.

MR. RAMSAY: Some unfinished business. I would like to move that we adopt the minutes of the Social Services Estimates Committee for May 12, and also the meeting of May 19.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I have a seconder?

Moved by Mr. Ramsay and seconded by Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: The minister's name, the spelling isn't correct, that is all.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In the May 12, number two, P-a-t-t Cowan has been changed. All in favour, 'aye', contrary-minded, 'nay'. The motion is carried.

Go ahead, Mr. Ramsay.

MR. RAMSAY: Also, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to move that we adopt the headings of the Department of Environment and Lands from 1.1.01 to 4.2.06 inclusive without amendment.

On motion, Department of Environment and Lands, total head carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Pardon?

MR. HARRIS: It was more like two to two.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I always vote. I am used to being a mayor sitting in a chair, and a mayor has to vote with everybody else. He is not allowed to vote separately, so when they said 'aye', I said 'aye'.

MS. VERGE: We didn't hear you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You didn't hear me?

MS. VERGE: No.

MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favour? Aye. Contrary? Nay.

MR. HARRIS: The Chair of the Committee doesn't vote unless, in fact, there is a tie. So the proper procedure, I think, is to determine what the vote is and then vote, not to vote along with everybody else.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you serious, Jack, or are you going to let me get away with this?

MR. HARRIS: Well, you are just lightening up -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank the hon. minister and her staff for coming along tonight. Thank you, Ms. Cowan. I didn't have the opportunity of hearing you and my friend from Labrador, the other night, but I hear that it was quite an interesting session with the first part of your presentation, I guess.

AN HON. MEMBER: Atomic energy.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, atomic energy.

MS. COWAN: Actually, the first thing I saw when I got in to St. John's the next morning was that there were several seagulls attacking someone's garbage.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, gentlemen, for coming along with the minister. I want to thank Elizabeth at the Table and Jack at the Hansard and one of our Pages. Thank you very much. The meeting now is adjourned.