May 26, 1992                 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS               Vol. XLI  No. 44


The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: ... (Inaudible) undertaken by Fire Chief Roberts. In 1979 he walked from Badger to St. John's. In the following years he extended his walk, and this year he not only walked from Port aux Basques to St. John's, but took in the outlying areas of the Trans-Canada.

Mr. Roberts is a constituent of mine, and a personal friend. He is also an employee of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. I regret that circumstances stopped me from meeting him personally at the end of his walk. I understand that the Minister of Mines and Energy, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, and the Leader of the Opposition met him.

What I want to do most of all by standing here is ask through you, Sir, that the House of Assembly recognize Mr. Roberts' efforts; that we would write him a letter of commendation, and that we would indicate the fact that we appreciate his efforts towards this noble cause. By the same token, Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the efforts of anybody symbolized by the kind of thing that Mr. Roberts just undertook. He did it at his own time. He took his vacation from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and did the walk.

In 1969, I might say as a footnote, the proceeds from his walk was $6,000. It peaked at $31,000 in 1990, and he is certainly hoping to surpass that amount in this walk in 1992. I believe that kind of effort, and that kind of commitment and dedication warrants a letter of congratulations from the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to be associated with the words of my friend from Windsor - Buchans. Indeed, I was at the Janeway on Saturday afternoon, and along with the two ministers, had the privilege of extending a welcome to Joe Roberts.

It struck me at the time that what he is doing is the type of thing that makes us, as individuals, as people, feel good about ourselves. The only problem is, not many of us would go to the extreme that Joe Roberts did to show his thanks; to express his thanks to the Janeway Hospital and the professional people who work there and cared for his own son, which is, I think, what got Joe involved in this walk to begin with.

I would like to be associated with the comments, and I know I speak on behalf of my colleagues when I say that he should be congratulated, and he should be thanked.

Perhaps just as a little added gesture, it might be appropriate if we did it in a more tangible way rather than just words, which I know are appreciated and would be appreciated. Maybe I could suggest to my friend, if he passed the hat among his colleagues over there I would be prepared to pass the hat among my colleagues on this side, and let's see if we can perhaps raise a few dollars to give him, as well, to go with his own gesture. I would be prepared to do that, and I am sure he would too.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be associated with the congratulations to Mr. Joe Roberts for his efforts on behalf of the Janeway Hospital. I know the minister recognized that many others also make contributions, and in congratulating Mr. Roberts, and through him, also congratulating others who give of their own volunteer time to raise money for a charitable cause, I think it is a very appropriate gesture on behalf of the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr, Speaker, I am pleased to announce that 484 projects have been approved under the Student Employment Program. This year, the provincial government will assist employers to provide employment for 553 post-secondary students, representing a provincial government financial commitment of $598,104. This will supplement and complement a much larger federally funded Student Employment Program that is active in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to reaffirm this government's support to the student population in this Province. Financial assistance such as this will enable students to pursue their career goals and further their education.

Officials from the department will be contacting project sponsors whose applications will be funded under the program as soon as possible. In any event, Mr. Speaker, everyone should be notified by early next week and also, a district by district list of approvals will be provided to all hon. members during today's proceedings.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with an advance copy. I wish he had done it last week when he was over doing the same thing for his colleagues on the other side. It was just like a wishing well, every member going there all last Thursday, and again on Tuesday getting their lists of applicants. I happen to know for a fact because a member told me he received his last Thursday, so I wish the minister had done it last week instead of today.

The $600,000 that was allocated is not going to be nearly enough to take care of the needs of this Province and I ask the minister if he can go back to his department and find a few more dollars to help those and we do not care if the minister plays politics as long as he finds the jobs.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, a while ago, I guess probably a couple of weeks now, in response to a question I think from the Member for St. John's East at the time, the Minister of Environment and Lands, said and I quote from Hansard: 'We are exploring the full environment impact' of the proposal to bring garbage from the United States for incineration at Long Harbour. That was a little over two weeks ago - I can give her the precise date, I think. It was May 6th Hansard.

May I ask the minister, since she said we are exploring the full environment impact, can she tell us, the House and the people of the Province, exactly how she is exploring the impact and what opportunities are available for the public to have input into her exploration of this particular project?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The project that we hear about for the Long Harbour area has not yet been presented to government. So, as yet we have done no in-depth study of that particular project.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House, then, what she meant by this quote in May 6th Hansard, page 990 when she says - and I won't extrapolate, I will read the first paragraph: 'Put it in words the hon. gentleman can understand, we are neither for nor against the project.' I quote: "We are exploring the full environmental impact of this." What does she mean by that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope I am an hon. gentlewoman, not an hon. gentleman. The tense of the word, I guess, is what is throwing him. There will be no in-depth research done on the project until it is registered. It is not registered yet. We are not looking into it. If I used the wrong verb there I don't know, I don't recall my exact words at that time. However, certainly any articles I see on it I am reading with great interest, but I wasn't referring to that at that particular meeting. It is we will be looking at it. Once it is registered, if it is registered, we don't even know if it will be.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the minister misunderstood what I said, I guess. I didn't refer to her as an hon. gentleman. She referred to us as hon. gentlemen in her answer. I was reading her answer, just so she understands that.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure if I understand what the minister is saying. I am assuming - I think people in the public have assumed since many public statements have been made by ministers and members on that side of the House in particular that the government is very well informed on the project and has a good understanding of what the project is all about. She would also know, no doubt, being the Minister of Environment that in other parts of Canada and in the United States, environmental reviews have resulted in rejection of an incinerator.

Now assuming the minister is knowledgeable and knows a bit about the project, can she give us some idea of what is new and different about the design and technology of this particular incinerator proposed for Long Harbour that might give her grounds to believe that it can be environmentally safe?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There has been no project registered. We do not know what is different about this project from any other project that has been registered any place else in Canada. We do not know it has not been registered.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure it is acceptable for the Minister of Environment and Lands to take that particular attitude. Surely, she must have herself made fairly knowledgeable about the project. Is she aware, for example, that the public have been told by the proponents that all the toxic waste removed from that garbage before it leaves the United States will be removed and to be doubly sure they are going to have a further screening at the site in Long Harbour and if they find any toxic materials that will then be sent back. Is she aware of that, for example? Everybody else in the Province is aware of it. If she is aware of it can she tell us or explain why, if that garbage is so environmentally safe when it comes into the Province, why would it be necessary to seal the ash in concrete and bury it as the proponents have said publicly?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, thank you. We have not had opportunity to assess the proposal because it has not been registered. I have heard many things about this proposal, both positive and negative, I cannot respond to any of them until I have seen the proposal. It has not yet been registered.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: I don't think the minister can continue to stonewall. She knows the debate that is going on in the Province. Presumably she saw in the Evening Telegram a few weeks ago the big two page diagram of the project and in that, in the diagram, the proponents say that that incinerator will produce 110 tons per day of toxic ash that will have to be secured in a special vault. Does the minister know if that is accurate? And, if it is can she tell us what on earth we would do with over 40,000 tons of toxic ash each year, 1,000,000 tons over a twenty year period?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, again we do not have the information because the project has not been registered. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, that I would suggest that it would be far more appropriate for the hon. Leader of the Opposition to be addressing these questions to his buddies in Ottawa who spent $1 million of the taxpayers money of this Province, including mine and yours, to get this thing studied for its economic impact.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: I have heard it all now, Mr. Speaker. I will say this to the Minister of Environment and Lands: if she can convince the Premier and if she is prepared to tell the Government of Canada today to withdraw their $1 million for the project, I would be prepared to support it. Now, would she be prepared to do that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health. On Thursday, May 14, I asked the Premier if he was aware of negotiations between the government and American Refuel of Long Island, New York, to set up a waste incinerator in St. John's. At that time the Premier said he did not know. So I asked the same question to the Minister of Health, who also claimed he did not know. However, on the next day, May 15, after the minister had twenty-four hours to check my question, he came back and I quote. He said: "...there is absolutely no basis for the member's question. I think we see here another example of fearmongering that we have seen from the Opposition...." Now that is what the minister said a few days ago.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in view of the announcement yesterday by the Minister of Environment and Lands that government is negotiating with American Refuel, the same company, to build an incinerator in St. John's, will the minister explain why he gave misleading and inaccurate statements to the House ten days ago?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I will stand by the question which I brought to the House. Maybe one of us is misleading, but I can assure the people of Newfoundland, it is not here. The question which the hon. member put is not even vaguely related to the actual events.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Health saying to me, and saying to this House, that he and the Premier were not advised by the Minister of Environment and Lands that her Department was carrying on negotiations with American Refuel about an incinerator in the St. John's area? Is that what the minister is saying?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is confused. The first time the question came up, the insinuation was that there was one of the hospitals in the City who was negotiating with a firm in New York somewhere to come up and burn some waste. Now when we checked it out, there was no such thing going on. There was a study by the St. John's Hospital Council which has something to do with the destruction of biomedical waste, which has really nothing to do with the question which the hon. member has asked. I think what he has here is a little bit of knowledge, and a little bit of knowledge, Mr. Speaker, has proven over the years to be a very dangerous thing, and I think it is becoming more and more clear here now.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Environment and Lands. Would the Minister of Environment and Lands advise this House if she had advised the Minister of Health and the Premier about negotiations that she had ongoing with American Refuel with respect to an incinerator in St. John's? Yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I am appalled. First of all, I couldn't even follow the man, he has his facts so confused. We are not negotiating with a soul about an incinerator for the St. John's area. I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we have at least six enquiries a week at our office about waste management and people who are interested in doing something about waste management.

On January 22, this company, BFL, which is a part of the group referred to by the hon. member, asked somebody in my department about the environmental assessment process. My goodness! My goodness! Now somebody phones up and asks a question in my department and, suddenly, on the scene will appear a waste-to-energy incinerator for St. John's. I bet the Minister of Development wishes that would happen every time somebody comes to talk to him about a new project in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WARREN: My goodness, Mr. Speaker! My goodness! Yes, Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. minister, my goodness.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Environment -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I haven't yet recognized the hon. member. If he will stand, I will recognize him.

The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Environment: Have there been any negotiations with municipalities on the northeast Avalon with respect to an incinerator for St. John's?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Certainly there have been no discussions between my department and the municipalities about something that doesn't exist. It is just an imaginary thing in somebody's mind. If that company, while it was in this Province, went to speak to some of the mayors of the various municipalities, that is their privilege, they can do it. But let me say that there is, at present, Mr. Speaker, a study going on of waste management for the northeast Avalon and, certainly, we are in close contact with the municipalities as that study is being prepared.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I want to ask the minister another question. I am just wondering if these are the future plans for this government, are we to become the garbage dump for North America? Will our coastline be dotted with incinerators burning North American garbage? Or is this the real economic plan for this government? Is this what the Premier is going to announce next week, that the economic plan for this government is to burn American garbage?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: I have no idea how he got American garbage wound into this. There is nothing connected with American garbage, as far as I know, from the discussions my officials had, as preliminary as they were. This group was in St. John's in 1980 actually, looking at the same thing, and decided that it was not economically viable, and went away. There was no question, as far as I know, about American garbage at that time. If there were, it was not my responsibility.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

Order, please!

MR. HODDER: I want to ask the minister: Has the environmental damage to Flat Bay Brook been assessed? This was damage caused by the collapse of a dam at Lookout Brook on the west coast last week. In light of the fact that it is a salmon river, and that there was a lot of environmental damage caused, has the minister done any assessment of that damage?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The department was certainly made aware of that as soon as it happened. I have not heard of any follow-up at this stage, and I do not know how severe the environmental damage was, but I will report back.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it happened a week ago. It happened last Wednesday, so I would think -

In light of the damage to the banks of the upper part of the river where a channel fifty yards wide is now 1,000 yards wide, and the banks have been scraped away, will the department be requiring that Newfoundland Light and Power repair the damage that has been done to the river?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Once again, when the extent of the damage is done, and we do not know at this stage whether the word that he used 'serious' is an accurate word. Certainly we will take every step to return the site, as close as we can, to what it was originally, but there may be some problems there, depending again on the magnitude of the damage.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: I would suggest as well that she look at the damage to perhaps the hatching salmon there as well. There has been some concern expressed.

My next question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy. In light of the fact that one of the dams was reconstructed, rebuilt, or restrengthened, last year, and this was the upper dam which broke and then took away the bottom part of the dam, will there be an investigation to find out what happened in this particular case? Was the contractor at fault?

These dams have been there, this hydro electric station has been there for as long as I can remember, certainly some thirty or forty years. Will there be an investigation into the cause of this, because we were very lucky. If this had happened during spring runoff, instead of after spring runoff as it did, the whole of the Flat Bay river basin area would have been devastated. There was millions of dollars worth of property damage, but there would have been millions and millions and millions more, so it is a very serious thing. I wonder if the minister plans to have an investigation into the work that was done there?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, the five megawatt hydro station on that brook is a private one owned by Newfoundland Light and Power. It is not a Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro station, and I have had no discussions with anybody on the subject.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: It is Newfoundland Light and Power, but I would think that the minister would have some say over that.

I would ask the minister: Who looks after Newfoundland Light and Power? Somebody in this Province must, and there was a considerable amount of damage done to present property holders all the way down the Flat Bay area. I would ask the minister: What will happen in terms of these property owners, if the minister washes his hands of it because it is a private company? Surely government, in some way or form, should be able to do something about that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, I will check into the matter and report back.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

At the Estimates Committee Meeting last week, the minister confirmed that the government employs two chauffeurs who chauffeur the Premier around in government limousines. He also said they do additional work besides chauffeuring the Premier around. That information is logged. I would ask the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation if he will make that log public and the information pertaining as to who uses the chauffeurs other than the Premier?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to indicate that he is making some great disclosure here. In fact, as I indicated to the hon. member, on Page 48 of the Departmental Salary Details there are two positions identified as chauffeurs that were identified in this year's details and probably in all previous years' details. So there is no effort to conceal the fact that these positions exist.

Mr. Speaker, if one looks at the services provided by these two individuals, one will find that the great, great bulk of their time is taken up with delivering packages and delivering mail to the various government organizations in and about this city.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in order to demonstrate that to the hon. member, to demonstrate to him that, in fact, the primary function of these people is the delivery of goods and services around the city to government agencies and not chauffeurs per se, and that, in fact, really what should be done is the job description changed, I will be providing the hon. member, in due course, with information relating to the activities of these two positions in detail.

MR. TOBIN: What does that mean?

MR. GOVER: I will be providing information as to the amount of time spent on various activities by these individuals to demonstrate to him, in fact, that perhaps the time has come now to rename these two positions and that, in fact, the primary responsibility of these individuals is not driving people around but driving goods and services around.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, no one is saying it is a secret. It is common to everyone that there are uniformed chauffeurs that drive up in two different limousines and pick up the Premier and members of his political staff every day. I am not trying to hide that. The minister and his officials said the other night that that information could be provided and I am asking the minister: Why is he sitting on it since last week? Why hasn't he tabled it in the House and let the public decide if it is packages, goods and services or the Premier and his flunkies?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, I have not sat on this matter for a week. In fact, I have instructed my officials to compile that information, to make it available to the hon. gentleman for his information. In fact, Mr. Speaker, what I think I will do is compile the information back to 1979 and we will see the economies that this administration has put in place. These chauffeurs are not getting $200-a-day tips, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. A few days ago I asked the Minister of Fisheries about the ownership of the crab processing plant at Roddickton which was destroyed by fire nearly two years ago. I want to ask the minister: Does he know if the plant was insured, for how much and who is the beneficiary of the insurance, as a result of the fire at the Roddickton Plant?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, yes, my information is the plant was insured. It seems to me, given the fact that the building was owned by the Town Council of St. Anthony dealing with a private company, that that question probably would be better directed to the Town of St. Anthony or to the people who leased the building from the town.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Obviously the minister meant the Town of Roddickton, I would think, Mr. Speaker, not St. Anthony.

I asked the minister a couple of days ago about the ownership question. I asked the minister could he get back and inform the House as to the question of ownership of the plant, because there seems to be a whole problem up there that is a fuzzy matter, I say to the minister, and there is quite a bit of concern about the area.

Now, the plant has since been partially rebuilt. I want to ask the minister again today: Who owns the plant, how much did the reconstruction cost, and how was it financed? How was the reconstruction of that particular facility financed, I ask the minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I told the hon. gentleman during Question Period, and I have since told him privately, that, to the best of my knowledge, the plant was leased by the Town of Roddickton to a company in which Quinlan Brothers have an interest. In the lease, I think, there was a right of first refusal which gave them the right to purchase the plant. Having discussed the matter briefly with a director of the company in the past few days I understand that they are going to exercise - or maybe they have already exercised - that option, and are now in the process of finalizing it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the minister specifically then: how much government money, if any, in outright grants or otherwise was used in the rebuilding of the plant? Secondly, was the money paid out on the insurance policy used to finance the construction of the new plant? So, two questions. Was the money for the insurance policy used for reconstruction, and secondly, how much government money has gone into that partially rebuilt plant now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. gentleman and the House that there is not one cent of provincial money which went into the rebuilding of that facility. It seems to me that the hon. gentleman should be asking these questions of maybe the Mayor of Roddickton, and one of the principals of the company who operated the plant. Because we have no reason to monitor what happened there in terms of: who got the insurance money, if in fact it was insured, and for what amount it was insured. I can tell him now that the building was insured. As to the disposition of the insurance money, I cannot tell him. But I can tell him this, that the Province did not, in any way, contribute to the rebuilding of that facility.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you again, Mr. Speaker. I have been told - and I want the minister to either confirm or deny it - that last year the Province put $250,000 into that facility by way of - through the special assistance program, or whatever. Is that a fact? I have been told that as late as yesterday, that there was $250,000 went in there last year from the Province. Now, that information may be incorrect. The only way to get information is to ask. So I am asking the question. Was there provincial money put into that facility last year through one of the special response programs or something like that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I said a moment ago, that to the best of my knowledge, certainly the Department of Fisheries did not put money into the rebuilding of the plant. To the best of my knowledge, no other government department did. But certainly we will look into it and maybe provide an answer later. But to the best of my knowledge there's no funding whatever went into that building from the provincial government.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Yes, maybe it was the Minister of Employment, maybe it was his Department that there is some money involved. But the minister will get the answers and come back.

I just want to revisit the ownership question again. Because it seems that the whole issue of ownership and refinancing of the plant is linked in some way to the refusal of Quinlan's to process crab in the plant this year. Really what the people are asking, and want the minister to tell the House and inform them, is why Quinlan's is not going to use that plant this year? Because there is a supply of crab, there is a market price - it is a bit of a bother - but there is a supply of crab and there are people to work there. So can the minister answer that for the people in that area? Why will Quinlan's not be operating, processing crab in Roddickton this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, again to the best of my knowledge it was a corporate decision made by the company not to complete the building. I am told that it would have required a sizable investment on the company's part and they chose not to make that investment.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Justice but, in his absence, to the Premier. The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary ended their investigation into the complaints against the former minister of the Crown and the Member for Naskaupi with a press release issued on May 19. I want to ask the Premier whether or not the twenty-one month investigation disclosed in that press release is in fact the proper way, or disclosed the proper way, to handle a complaint of such a nature against a minister of the Crown? In view of the fact that both the complainant and the officer who took the initial complaint disagreed with how the initial complaint was characterised in this press release.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I can only assume that they found it necessary to deal with it in this way because of the fact that members on the opposite side of the House made it a public issue in the House. I assume that that is the reason why it was necessary, but I do not know. I have not spoken to them about it. I can only draw that conclusion, which seems to me to be logical, from those facts.

MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the Premier. The specific problems that both the complainant and the officer accepting the complaint have with the press release deal with the fact that the initial complaint was in fact regarding the sexual misconduct allegations, which is not disclosed by this, and secondly that the complainant was told that the file was accidentally filed away and not for the reasons set out here.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that we have the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary investigating itself in this matter, and saying in the end that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is satisfied with the impartiality of this police investigation, won't the Premier consider having an independent objective inquiry looking into the nature of the investigation and whether or not it was properly conducted, and to determine whether or not proper police procedures were followed or whether some changes ought to be made in the way that the police conduct investigations of this nature. So they don't take twenty-one months to have an investigation of this nature hanging over an accused or an improper investigation being done. Isn't it time, Mr. Speaker, that we had an objective look at this so that the public could be satisfied that justice was done?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, it is vitally important that every citizen of this Province have complete confidence in the impartiality and the total absence of any unfairness in the justice system and in police procedures and so on. That is vitally important, that there be no doubts about the quality of the administration of justice in the Province.

Now if there is any real evidence, and if the hon. member has one iota of real evidence, please make it public. Give it to me and I will see that it is attended to, but if you want to, also make it public - if there is any real evidence, other than the giggles of the Member for Humber East, which I don't consider very cogent evidence by any standard. If you have any real evidence, please make it available and I assure you that the government will take whatever action is necessary to be absolutely confident that there is no reason to have any doubt whatsoever about the impartiality of the administration of justice. But members, bear in mind, inquiries cost a lot of taxpayers dollars. Now if there is a real reason to do it, don't hesitate, spend the dollars, but don't do it just to satisfy the bigoted claims of Opposition members who want to create an idea that something is wrong for their own narrow political motive. But if there is any real evidence make it available and we will proceed with whatever level of inquiry is necessary to make sure that there is no doubt about the total impartiality of the administration of justice.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report of the Public Tender Act exceptions, for April, 1992.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, Section 3 of the Mineral Act, requires that I table the annual report on Mineral Licences, so today I am pleased to table the report on Mineral Licences and Mining Leases issued for the period April 1, 1991 to March 31, 1992.

MR. SPEAKER: Sorry?

MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if I am out of order or not, but I am wondering if it would be in order to have a motion to have the motto under our Coat of Arms changed from its current status to, 'What, My Goodness'. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, in answer to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, I undertook that I would deliver the details of the statistics for the unemployment situation to which he referred and I am now tabling, Mr. Speaker, the graph - and I will explain to the members of the House - which shows the growth in unemployment rate in each of the provinces and in Canada as a whole, in 1991 over 1990 and the other figures, all of which demonstrate quite clearly, Mr. Speaker, that there was no foundation to the Leader's comments on the issue.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table answers to questions that were asked by the Member for Humber East and the Member for St. John's East during the Estimates Committee meetings, and also answers to questions of the hon. Members for Burin - Placentia West and St. John's East, which were asked on May 13th, while I was absent from the House attending ministerial meetings.

Mr. Speaker, these questions deal with the numbers of cases on single able-bodied assistance, as well as single parents receiving assistance, and overall, numbers of cases in the Province of all people on social assistance over the last three years. Mr. Speaker, it deals with the numbers of refugees entering the Province in the last three years and some considerable detail on how the refugees are dealt with when they are here in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, there are questions concerning child welfare and the numbers of children under care during the three-year period; also, Mr. Speaker, children who are cared for under the six separate arrangements, foster care, board and lodging, group homes, choices for youth and special living arrangements and emergency placements and out-of-Province placements.

Mr. Speaker, because there were several questions asked, average caseloads for child protection services over the last three years and, Mr. Speaker, I want to answer one to the questions concerning The Child Welfare legislation and the fact that this legislation is in process now, and deals with the question asked in the estimates concerning a sixteen to eighteen year old category of youth, and finally, in answer to a question concerning incidents at the Whitbourne facility in April. So, I would like to table answers to all these questions, Mr. Speaker, and if there is any further clarification needed, I would be more than willing to provide it.

Orders of the Day

MR. BAKER: Motion 5, Mr. Speaker.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Abolish School Tax Authorities And To Provide For The Collection Of Unpaid School Tax", (Bill No. 28).

On motion, Bill No. 28 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Motion 6, Mr. Speaker.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Taxation Statutes In Relation To The Payment Or Imposition Of Interest," carried. (Bill No. 29)

On motion, Bill No. 29 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Motion 7.

Motion, the hon. the President of the Council to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Application And Effect Of Certain Acts Passed In the Present Session Of The Legislature Upon The Revised Statutes Of Newfoundland, 1990," carried. (Bill No. 27)

On motion, Bill No. 27 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Motion 8.

Motion, The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act," carried. (Bill No. 32)

On motion, Bill No. 32 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Order 2.

MR. SPEAKER: The concurrence motion.

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before the Chairman starts, I wonder if we could have agreement as to the timing and so on. We really have to agree as to how many minutes we speak to this concurrence motion. The Opposition House Leader indicates that a ten-minute formula might be okay. I just want to let everybody know.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune - Hermitage.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to speak on the concurrence motion of the Resource Committee of the Government Estimates. As I said earlier, the members of the Committee did an excellent job in presenting themselves at the Committee hearings. The ministers and their officials are also to be commended for the way they dealt with questions up front and for the very professional manner in which they answered questions pertinent to their departments. The four departments we dealt with were Forestry and Agriculture, Fisheries, Mines and Energy, and Development.

I would like to deal first of all, for a few moments, on the Mines and Energy Committee. We met, and during the questions posed to the minister and his officials, a particular part of the Estimates that was of interest to me was a section dealing with the dimensional stone. I understand from the assistant deputy minister of the department, Mr. Dean, that this is a new industry the Province is attempting to put into operation. And one of the areas that has an abundance of this dimensional stone is the area I represent, particularly on the Connaigre Peninsula. In a recent seminar in St. John's a couple or three weeks ago, one of the representatives from the Connor Development Association was in attendance and basically, I think the word came back that the dimensional stone on the Connaigre Peninsula is really the bread and butter stone of the industry. Now, we also understand that our area is only one of three or four others that are involved with the particular industry. I understand in Lumsden and in the Grand Falls area they will also be doing some work there this year and these blocks of stone will be taken to Buchans for refining, to be sent to market.

Now, the dimensional stone industry already in my area has started in the sense that we have been able to work through the Connor Development Association and Canada Manpower to put into process the training of fifteen individuals from the area. That training is taking place in the local area just outside the community of Seal Cove. That particular project, I believe, has tremendous potential for the area. It seems to be very, very encouraging, as I said.

The minister, by the way, on the weekend will be the guest speaker to the Connor Development Association annual dinner. I guess it was the association's concern and mine, as well, to make the minister familiar with the area so that you could see first hand the amount of stone that is there to be developed. There are massive amounts of it. I understand from someone that there is enough stone in the area for 1,700 years of mining. So that is quite a bit. I don't think any of us will be around at that time, but it does show great promise for the area.

Because it is a new industry, it can and will be, I think, a real shot in the arm for the Connaigre Peninsula, because up to this time the emphasis has been on fishing. If we can create a number of jobs, even though a small number, in this area, it will be a great benefit. That is why the Connor Development Association works so closely with Enterprise Newfoundland and with people in the minister's department to make this work, because they see that it has relative merits. Merits that will pay great dividends for the people in the area.

Through the Estimates Committees that we have talked about and passed over the last number of nights, we were also encouraged - I was encouraged, as well - with the fact that there is a fair amount of exploration being done in the central area. Also, on the Connaigre Peninsula, there have been good prospects for a mining area outside the area of Pool's Cove, nothing substantive as yet. There has to be a tremendous amount of exploration to be done before we can say if this thing will become a reality or not. We are certainly encouraged by that, and that for me was very encouraging in that meeting we had with the minister.

If I could also go to the Department of Development. We met with the minister there, and again, the minister and his colleagues were up front, answering in a very forthright and professional manner questions delivered to them by the Opposition. I say to the minister, I don't think I said to him that particular night, that his department, the Department of Development, contributed substantially to a new building for the Connor Development Association in the community of Hermitage. The Minister of Mines and Energy will officially open that building on the weekend, as well, in his capacity as minister, when visiting the area.

The building, itself, is a real monument, I think, to the Connor Development Association that has worked so hard to make this project a reality. Because, in addition to having the offices in this building for the Development Association, the Connor Development Association has worked hard and has attracted a credit union to set up office in their building, and that has already been done. That is a great boost for the people in the area who had to travel to the community of St. Alban's or Harbour Breton to have work done. Now, it can be done in the Hermitage - Connaigre Peninsula area itself and comes as a great benefit to the people there.

In addition to the offices for the Development Association and the credit union there is a great craft shop that has been in operation now for about a couple of months, and the floor space there is large and adequate. The number of people who have contributed items to this area has been greater than expected and has brought in revenue for the area in a way that it was not possible before.

So, really, in a sense, by contributing the amount of money toward the building, along with Canada Manpower supplying the labour to make it a reality, this has become a real economic thrust for the area because the Connor Development Association is one association that is cognizant of their work and is trying to develop the area and, I believe, in this particular instance, has gained a lot of respect from the people in the area for their pursuit of having this become a reality.

I would also like to say that, because of the improvement in the road infrastructure on the Connaigre Peninsula - I think it is in the last four years, some ninety kilometers of improvement in road structure in the area - we will see an influx of tourists to that particular part of the coast. Up to this particular time we did not have a large number of tourists coming in because we had very poor road transportation, gravel roads that were sixty-years of age in some instances. It is because now the government has made a commitment to the people in the area that we have been able to overcome that obstacle. I believe that the area has some very, very enormous potential.

I was somewhat intrigued yesterday when I saw a poster that dealt with Environment Week - the Department of Environment and Lands. I wasn't intrigued by the inscription, the fact that it is their campaign, I guess, of overfishing that says there are no fish to swim. But they used a very, very beautiful picture from the community of Hermitage to display there. I think if one were to look at the artistic quality of that particular picture, just looking for the artistic quality itself, people would concur with me that it is a very, very beautiful coast that has a tremendous amount of potential. I believe that in the days to come this potential will be realized in the tourist trade. That has all been made possible, as I said, by a number of factors falling into place to make it a reality.

So I am pleased about that and I am also pleased with the Department of Development which has spearheaded along with E&L a number of projects in the area. As I said, they have been spearheaded primarily by the Development Association and interested citizens. It has been an economic success. I would like to go on record as congratulating the Minister of Development, his staff and his people and E&L, who have been so ably involved and have made the economic situation a much improved situation on the Connaigre Peninsula.

When it comes to fisheries which was another one of the resource areas that we had to deal with, as I have said before to people, I guess the area I represent has been fortunate in that it has seen a fair amount of inshore fishing over the winter months and into the spring. Over the last couple of weeks the amount of inshore cod species has dropped off considerably but, nevertheless, there is approximately, from the whole area, the number of people involved, the number of fishermen, probably around 10,000 pounds a day going into the inshore plant at Hermitage which is generating some work there for these people as well.

In checking out the facts from the area, I was informed today, as well, that the lump roe - and I found that out on the weekend - in the district is relatively good. The catches are not as great as they were in 1991 up until now but, because the price of lump roe has doubled, then the financial return to the fishermen has been greater. So I guess that is the bottom line to it, the fact that it is a good price and these people are able to do well.

That also augers or spills over into the lobster fishery. I know from the district that the lobster fishery so far this year has been on par with, and probably even a little better, than last year in terms of catch. Because of the large increases we have seen in the price of lobster, some fishermen have doubled their last year's financial returns so far, from last year up to this particular time. That is very, very encouraging. I am sure that the fishermen are delighted that the catch of lobster is still holding and that the price is still relatively good, so that these people can at least have a half decent lobster fishery this year.

I would also like to comment on, from the fisheries portfolio, the success that the deep sea fish plant at Harbour Breton has had. Last year it was converted into a redfish plant. From last fall up to now it has been operating at capacity and has been a real boost to the town itself, and the some 500 people who have been working there.

I think to put into perspective, Mr. Speaker, how well the people have done in the area. That is, in August 1990, when a delegation from the area met with the Premier in his office and expressed an interest in getting an arena for the community, the words to the effect were - and if I have a minute to finish up, just a minute.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. LANGDON: To finish up what I am saying here. In 1990 the people from the community started a fund-raising drive. From August 1990 up to now they have been able to realise, from that town primarily, with very little help from outside, $180,000. Not pledges, but cash. I think that is a real tribute to that community which has expressed to the Premier their willingness to have that particular arena in place.

What they plan to do, and I think it will be realised - I know it will - that by the time the thing is officially open, they will be able to say to the Premier and to the Province: we have the structure, we have put in our full complement and from the long-term capital cost, this thing is debt free. I think that is just tremendous. From the area we have been able to put into place the proper documents saying that the communities in the area would fund the thing once it has been constructed.

So I have been really pleased with what has happened in that area. I am sure the success would not have been this way had not we had a good fishing season and the people were able to contribute through payroll deductions in the plant, and from the hospital and the teachers and the clerks and what have you.

So considering that, I could talk about the relative success of the plant in Gaultois. The government contributed some money to keep it open. It was opened by Conpak Seafoods. To ensure the viability of the particular plant, the government called tenders for a new ferry for the community. The new ferry will go into service on June 5. It has on it as well a three-ton crane that will be able to hoist aboard the fish for the plant and to help make the plant more viable.

So it is with these particular comments, Mr. Speaker, that I contribute to the concurrence debate. I would like to thank the members Opposite for their giving me a few extra minutes to conclude. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the member wants another few minutes he can certainly have it, or else he can come back to it. But if you want another few minutes -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Okay. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words on the concurrence debates, and more specifically I guess as it pertains to the resource sector. I vice-chaired that Committee, along with the Member for Fortune - Hermitage. I must say, it was a real pleasure to serve on the Committee and have the opportunity to question the ministers in Committee. I found that in the Estimates I always had a chance to just take it easy, take your time, and ask ministers questions that you don't - it's not like in the House of Assembly, where you get up and you are not allowed too much of a preamble. In committee you can preamble all you like and you can address the question whichever way you like. You have all the time in the world to get some answers.

I must say that all the ministers we had - Fisheries, Forestry, Development, and Mines and Energy - were very forthcoming. Up front. As far as I am concerned, honest with their answers. That is what it is all about. We are here to watch over the Legislature and legislation and policies on behalf of our constituents, and I think we should be afforded that right to be given the answers when they are asked in a constructive sense.

I would like to refer specifically to some of the questions and answers that were brought up in the Committee. The member just mentioned the dimensional stone aspect of the Department of Mines and Energy. I too took great pleasure in questioning the Minister of Mines and Energy, especially as it pertains to dimensional stone. This is an industry, I think, that will be of great consequence to the Province, especially as it pertains today to some new economic development. It is an industry that, if we get the right markets, we get the right people, the right export markets, can be taken advantage of pretty well all over the Province.

As the member noted, he has a find of dimensional stone in his particular area, and there are others in the Lumsden area and also in the Goose Arm area of Humber Valley district.

In the Humber Valley district we have a very, very large find of dimensional stone in the Goose Arm area. It is a find that consists of many colours and many grades of dimensional stone, and this is what is going to make it very attractive to outside people and processors and producers in other parts of the world, especially in the United States and Italy. The Italians are the people now who are very interested in this particular find. They are about to extract more samples this summer and send them away for further processing to determine whether this particular grade of dimensional stone is going to be worthwhile, and therefore make it into a viable and productive industry.

That augurs well for the area, especially now. At least it creates and provides some hope, especially now when everything else is down. People are looking for something, if not to lift them up immediately, to at least give them some psychological lift, especially in those hard times and times of high unemployment.

I suggest, as I said to the Minister of Mines and Energy that night, that he be very cognisant of what is going on in this particular industry, and any permits, or requests for permits pertaining to anything today to do with development, whether it be dimensional stone or anything else, that those requests for permits be looked after rather quickly.

Also on that particular committee we discussed the general mining industry of the Province, and questioned them on, for instance in the Buchans area, the Tally Pond find. That was pretty prominent there just a little over a year ago, and there was supposed to be some further developments. To this date there has not been much new in that regard. That primarily consists of base metals. As you know, the Buchans area for years has seen a tremendous amount of base metals come out of the Buchans area, especially as it pertains to ASARCO. ASARCO mined Buchans for years under the names of the Rothemere Mine, McLean Shaft, and Oriental. Granted, I always said that they high-graded the ore in the Buchans area for their own good, and as far as I am concerned there was more ore buried in the mines of Buchans than was ever taken out of it.

I caution the minister to make sure that if any mines that are created or developed today, any new mines, that they be inspected, that they thoroughly be policed, and to make sure that any company coming into the Province, whether it is dimensional stone, whether it is base metals, whether it is for gold or anything like that, that they be policed, and forced to keep up to their permits and the conditions of their permits, and make sure that they do not high-grade any operation in the Province today.

We also questioned the minister, I did in particular, with regard to the Glover Island properties on Grand Lake. That is in the Humber Valley district as well. That particular find was a find that showed up fairly large quantities of gold, with a very high grade, just in the past year. I understand now there are another two or three samples to be analyzed over the next few months and this would determine whether any further development would take place on Glover Island in Grand Lake.

Mr. Speaker, there were a number of other issues pertaining to the minister's department and some of the more interesting issues that I found dealt with not only the offshore development of oil but also onshore. At that particular time there were, I think, two companies with three different permits issued for the Northern Peninsula area of the Province, whereby companies would have to do some development over the next five years. I don't have the figures but one particular company would have to spend over $1 million in five years. That's what is contained in the conditions of the permit, and that, in itself, would generate some economy in the area, thereby probably resulting in the development of something to do with regard to oil extraction on the Northern Peninsula especially in the Parson's Pond area. There were two other companies in that particular area that came in at $10,000. I questioned that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Two blocks?

MR. WOODFORD: Two blocks. I was rather sceptical about one block coming in for over $1.2 million and two blocks just up the road coming in for $10,000 over a five-year period. That led me to some scepticism with regard to those particular companies. I still think those permits were given, or were requested on the basis of tying up property in the area so that it would not be accessible to other companies. If that is the case, then I think the minister, over the next couple of years, should take a long, hard look at that area and make sure that companies that do receive permits do something with them and keep up the conditions under which they were given.

We questions the minister on other aspects of his department, as well, especially with regard to the mini-hydro sites. I said it here in the House before, Mr. Speaker, and I say it again today. We have a government opposite who are supposedly looking for opportunities to create some economic development in the Province. The Minister of Development has an office in Hong Kong to try to attract some development to this Province. I don't know what the figure is but I would say that possibly it is a good thing. If we can only get one a year, or one every two years, we will probably be able to attract someone to the Province to create economic activity.

But, in saying that, Mr. Speaker, I must draw an analogy to what is going on with regard to mini-hydro sites in the Province and Newfoundland Hydro. Two years ago, government called for requests saying they were going to institute a policy whereby Newfoundland Hydro would waive the rights on any mini-hydro site in the Province up to fifty megawatts. The legislation in place then, and in place until a couple of weeks ago, was that anything over one megawatt had to go to the Public Utilities Board. Now, Mr. Speaker, I said to the minister that if you bring in some new legislation dealing with raising the one megawatt condition to ten or fifteen, or fifty, that we, as an Opposition party, would make sure that that legislation would go through smoothly, and would go through this House rather quickly, so that Newfoundland Hydro could take advantage of that legislation.

The minister kept his word and brought it to the floor of the House and that piece of legislation was passed. I think it was raised to ten, if not fifteen megawatts, thereby giving private entrepreneurs, not only in the Province, but anywhere in the country, the right to apply through Newfoundland Hydro for the right to generate electricity under what they call a mini-hydro site.

Mr. Speaker, what was done by Newfoundland Hydro after, I do not agree with, I do not agree with - Newfoundland Hydro did call for proposals, they called for proposals alright, but as far as I am concerned they called for proposals rather quickly to try to take the Minister of Energy and the Premier, or the government as a whole, off their backs and that, to me, is where the minister and his colleagues are going to have to step in.

Mr. Speaker, I understand my time is up.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is reminding people, because the Chair's understanding was that we agreed to ten minutes, so I don't interrupt members, we just send them a note to tell them, so they could finish up shortly after.

The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think this is where the Cabinet ministers and members as a whole, on the other side of the House are going to have to take the bull by the horns, and go and tell Newfoundland Hydro that not only are they going to accept power by 1996, but when the deadline for proposals comes in in August, that whatever companies put in, whether it is for five, ten, fifteen, twenty or fifty, tell them right away that those companies should be allowed to proceed.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that what I am saying is falling on deaf ears, there is only one person to get to with regard to this, and that is the Premier, and I say here this evening, Mr. Speaker, that if something is not done after August - a few weeks after August the proposals come in, I, for one, am going to make sure if the minister does not, and the ministers do not, that the Premier himself is going to know about it. Because, as far as I am concerned, this is an opportunity in this Province today to put people to work. It is an opportunity to get work and capital funding and capital projects started without one red cent of government money.

Members opposite are always saying that we can't do this and we can't do that because we don't have the money. This is a prime opportunity, Mr. Speaker, and a prime example of putting - there is $300 million worth of mini-hydro sites in the Province today that can be started pretty well within six to twelve months, $300 million! Newfoundland Hydro is calling for just fifty megawatts, that is all they are calling for now, fifty megawatts and the deadline for proposals for those fifty megawatts is in August of 1992.

Mr. Speaker, what they want after that is, to wait another twelve months before they even do anything about it. They are not accepting any power until 1996. We saw an example yesterday, or last week in Lookout Brook on the West Coast of the Province, whereby Newfoundland Hydro, five megawatts were wiped out overnight. I just do not know why Newfoundland Hydro is waiting until 1996, I mean, wouldn't it be nice just a couple of months ago to have had some extra power to hook up to the lines and put into the grid?

So members opposite should take note that Newfoundland Hydro should be told in no uncertain terms, that once those proposals come in for the fifty megawatts of power in August, that those companies be given the right to proceed with construction as soon as possible.

One particular company, Mr. Speaker, in my area, doesn't even have to go to the environmental assessment. The environmental assessment has been waived; there is a $13 million project and it is going to take construction anywhere from twelve to twenty months employing anywhere from twenty-five to forty-five people, and they are willing, by the way, to start work come fall. Even though Newfoundland Hydro is not willing to accept the power until 1996, they are willing to go to work. So, Mr. Speaker, the minister is aware of it, the minister will be reminded of it, and I think this is an opportunity whereby some capital funding can be put in place and capital projects proceed without one penny, one copper of government money, whether municipal, provincial or federal.

Now, this was just the Mines and Energy Committee we had. I must say, the minister, as I said, was upfront with his answers with regard to mines and energy problems in the Province. I notice in the hydro report - I will probably get into that a little later, get into more specifics with regard to the hydro report. I will give other members a chance to have a few words and I will have a few words on the other three departments a little later on in the evening, Mr. Speaker.

So I thank the members for giving me a few minutes leave to continue on with the Mines and Energy Department. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question?

MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thought the Member for Stephenville was standing in his place, that is why I was hesitant to stand.

I want to take part in this debate on Concurrence, especially since the resource sector is being discussed. The district that I represent is obviously heavily involved in the resource area in terms of the economy.

I listened to the Member for Fortune - Hermitage talking about the fishery, and he indicated there were some areas that were fairly positive in his district. I wish I could say the same thing with respect to my district. I wish I could say the same thing about lobster prices. The member indicated the lobster prices were holding firm. That is certainly not the indication I got from fishermen as to the projected price of lobster this week. It was going to be reduced substantially from last week. To date, Mr. Speaker, that has been the only area of the fishery that has had any measure of success at all, the lobster fishery. The lump fishery has started up, and catches in certain area have been fair, but certainly nothing to indicate that the fishery for this summer will be very prosperous.

So, Mr. Speaker, in that particular area of fisheries and fisheries development, I think that this budget fails to address what will, in September, prove to be another unmitigated disaster in the fishery. At this point in time, the boats have already been out. They have been out 150 to 180 miles off and catches have been negligible, nothing at all, Mr. Speaker. One boat last week did have a moderate catch off the Avalon area, but off the Funk Island Banks, where boats traditionally have done well with turbot, there has been little if any activity because there are absolutely no fish there.

Mr. Speaker, I suppose to add insult to injury for the fishery this year: It has been the market situation with the crab fishery in my area that at this point in time last year it was open, but I think today they are trying to resolve the question as to whether or not it is going to open. Unfortunately, for fishermen, the prices are considerably weaker than last year, almost reduced by half from what they were last year. Mr. Speaker, the prospects are not very good at all for any kind of development in that area. So I am kind of disappointed that the minister, in his budget, failed to take into account the impending disaster in the fishery and little is being done.

Mr. Speaker, in the district that I represent a fair number of fishermen have now lost a major source of income, that being in the salmon fishery. At least fifteen salmon fishermen in the Gander Bay area derived half of their income from the salmon fishery and now, with the buy-out of the commercial salmon fishery, that has come to an end. Of course, Mr. Speaker, there is a recognition on the part of everyone that it was probably right and proper that this would occur. That doesn't make it any easier for the fishermen of the Province, though, who were relying so heavily on that sector of the fishery as a support mechanism for getting them through very difficult times.

Mr. Speaker, we have some troubled times in the fishery -

MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) not one person here from the caucus, not one.

MR. WINSOR: The Minister of Forestry and Agriculture doesn't have to worry about there being no one here. The minister should be more concerned about the condition of the forests in the Province than he is about the number of people on this side. If he were half as concerned about that - Mr. Speaker, he can count as much as he wants, and he can count the number of people who are being employed in the forestry sector in this Province since he has been the minister. All I see him do is cut, lay off, and reduce numbers. He has not done anything to substantially improve the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker....

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: The press is probably watching the Minister of Forestry count. Since the Minister of Forestry now wants to take part in the debate, he can get back in his seat in a minute, and perhaps he can respond to his Department's lack of a plan for the forests of this Province.

The forest, perhaps one of our greatest potential resources, has been constantly neglected throughout Newfoundland's forestry industry. This administration has done nothing to improve it, in our area of the country. The minister knows because he has visited once or twice. One occasion I know for sure he visited. Recently. More than once. The minister has some relatives who live there, so he has occasionally come to visit. I think he even came one time to pick some bakeapples in our area. The minister has visited the area, I'll give him that. He did not do much to help the forest industry there in recent years. He did have one project but that was closer to Gander than my district. Much closer to Gander and Kindon's Ridge. I will give the minister that.

What I would like to see the minister do is to take some initiative. As a matter of fact, let me tell the minister that in the last three years the federal government has undertaken a fairly extensive program to do some silviculture in the Gander Bay area. I think the minister's Department flicked in a few dollars.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. WINSOR: No, a few dollars, no, the minister does not know what he is talking about. It is all federal money now, the minister knows, under the federal-provincial forestry agreement, there was -

MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible)!

MR. WINSOR: Yes, and the minister has spent some money in the Gander Bay area. In the Carmanville area specifically. Now what he has done is he has trained a number of forestry workers. Over the last two or three years, there has been an ongoing program where they have trained a number of workers. Now unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the people who they have now trained find themselves with no work. Yet the forest is still in almost as bad a shape as when they started. Because it was so big an area that had to be done.

MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) Fogo Ferry.

MR. WINSOR: The minister has just got to learn, the minister has three - the Fogo ferry? You took the Fogo ferry.

MR. FLIGHT: Well, we'll take another one (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: Took another ferry.

MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: Yes, you'll take another ferry.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, the minister has lost leave of his senses. He does not know what he is talking about. Talking about taking another ferry. What kind of foresight and planning does the minister have in mind when he suggests that he take another ferry from the people of Fogo? The problem is, this administration has got a $3 billion Budget. In excess of $3 billion.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. WINSOR: The Budget is, for the Province! In excess of $3 billion. The minister and his other Cabinet colleagues do not know how to spend it. The minister would prefer to spend it on social services. That is what the minister wants to do. Because he is driving them to the social services rolls every day. So if the minister wants to take some money he can channel it into meaningful activities in the forest sector.

The minister has not done it. He has now had two years and the minister just said: we were involved in that initiative, in silviculture. Now he has trained all the workers to take them and ship them off to BC somewhere. Is that what he has done, and neglect our own forests? Perhaps when the minister takes part in this debate in a few minutes he will tell us how many silviculture projects will be taking place throughout the northeast coast, in Fogo district specifically. An area, Mr. Speaker, that in 1961 was devastated by a fire, a major fire.

The minister initially started to do some things and his Cabinet colleagues got to him and said: you can't have any more money, Graham, you've had enough money. He had no clout around the Cabinet table, none at all, and the minister lost the little bit of funding that he had in Forestry for silviculture, and good money. Money that was well spent. Because we saw last year, when the Minister of Labour, after we constantly browbeat him and everyone in the Province was telling the minister to get some projects moving, some, as we called them, make-work projects. There was a number of good projects that were started in this Province in the forestry sector, in the fishery sector, and other areas that could have helped the economy of this Province significantly.

The onus is on government, particularly through its resources. The area - it is interesting to note over the last number of years how the Budget has constantly reduced the amount of money that is available for resource development. Each year we see it dwindle.

Mr. Speaker, this year the Department of Fishery, when I looked at it first I was delighted. I thought that there was a big increase in the amount of money that was going to be available for the Department of Fisheries. It is, Mr. Speaker, except that I think about $7 million of it goes towards the buy out of the commercial salmon licences. That is where $7 million of it goes. That is money well spent. No question about that, except then when we subtract that, that is not going to do anything. That is not doing one thing for the fishery, Mr. Speaker. That results in a downturn in the fishery. That means there are less new dollars being created. Over $7 million has been taken from that budget and given to the fishermen throughout the Province. The fact of the matter is it deprives them, though, of the opportunity to fish and turn new dollars in. So the minister put it in his budget, and we welcome it.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Are you against it.

MR. WINSOR: No, the Member for Eagle River knows that I am not against it, Mr. Speaker. How can anyone be against conservation?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Eagle River wants to know if I was against the buy out of the commercial salmon fishery licences. I regret that it happened. I regret very much because a large number of people who live in my district have had a considerable part of their income from the commercial salmon fishery. I also recognize, and so do they, that it had become necessary, that dwindling stocks dictated that we do something.

Mr. Speaker, the area that we had to focus on first was the commercial salmon fishery. That is not the only source of problem in that industry, we have some problems in the rivers as well. We have big problems that we have to address. Here is an opportunity in salmon enhancement and protection that this administration could do something in. If you want to do some meaningful work, I don't think the federal Department of Fisheries will stop you from doing some work in the salmon rivers to prevent stream erosion, from cleaning up some of the bark and the car wrecks, and the tons and tons of debris that is in the salmon rivers of the Province. I don't think the federal Department of Fisheries would stop the provincial minister if he said: I will take some money now and we will see if we can create a healthy environment for salmon to reproduce. I don't think that the federal minister would prevent them.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: Do I support what?

AN HON. MEMBER: Community quotas.

MR. WINSOR: Community quotas on what?

AN HON. MEMBER: Salmon.

MR. WINSOR: On salmon? There is no such thing on the island as community quotas on salmon.

The member keeps twisting around from one place to the other. Now he wants to talk about community quotas for ground fish, Mr. Speaker. He can talk about community quotas as much as he wants to if there is neither fish there you can give them a million pounds for each community, and there is neither fish out there. It doesn't matter a row of beans if you are going to talk community quotas.

AN HON. MEMBER: There are lots of fish out there.

MR. WINSOR: There are lots of fish out there? Well I wish you would tell the Minister of Fisheries where the fish are because I am sure the Minister of Fisheries would like to know. He would be delighted if his colleague for Eagle River is right in saying that there are millions of fish out there. I am sure he would be delighted.

MR. DUMARESQUE: There are more fish in the water than cod.

MR. WINSOR: There are more fish in the water than cod. We know that too. We are well aware of it. My friend from Baie Verte - White Bay will tell you that up until a few years ago you could catch turbot just about off the wharf.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MR. WINSOR: All across the northeast coast, Mr. Speaker. Just go out in the deep water anywhere at all and there was any amount of turbot, 10, 12, 15 miles off the shore. Now, Mr. Speaker, boats are going 180 miles to fish in 600 and 700 fathoms of water.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: Whose fault was that? Probably the Minister of Finance. He taxed everything else to death. His taxes have been so restrictive they even prevented fish from swimming in. He has driven everyone else out, and he has driven fish out of this Province too. The Minister of Finance. He wanted to know. The Minister of Finance. A good one to talk about fish, Mr. Speaker. Whose fault was that? I suppose you are going to blame that now on Ottawa too. Ottawa caught all the turbot too did they?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: What was that? What did he say then?

AN HON. MEMBER: He don't know what he said.

AN HON. MEMBER: He muttered.

MR. WINSOR: He muttered some kind of remark. But, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Eagle River is right that there are other species of fish out in the water. There is turbot, Mr. Speaker. There is also what we call flounder, and their numbers are becoming increasingly scarce. For two years we had a very successful fishery in what we call the black back, a small flat fish as we called them. We always called them flat fish at home, twelve inches and under, and it was a lucrative fishery until we fished it too hard and the inevitable happened. We cannot even get enough for lobster bait now. We have to go all around the northeast coast from Valleyfield to Fogo trying to get enough bait to bait a few lobster traps with flatties, as we referred to them, because we had caught all of the fish in the years before.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINSOR: My colleague from Grand Bank wondered if we could use night worms. We might have to resort to that too, Mr. Speaker, in order to sustain the fishery.

The other areas that we have had, we had a successful caplin fishery. It was not successful last year, and the indications are that the biomass is not very big again this year. We could have trouble there.

We had a good herring fishery. That has all but disappeared too, for a number of reasons. Apparently we could have a good area in sea urchins, except in my area they happen to spawn in March and we cannot get a boat out in the water. We cannot get down through the ice in March, so we cannot harvest that. We have a few (inaudible) that we could catch. I suppose we could catch a few of these, but that is pretty limited, too.

Mr. Speaker, with these few remarks on the fishery I will conclude and pick it up later on, since I am at leave of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member for Eagle River is giving great speeches today from his seat, as usual. He does not get up. The Government House Leader has him tied to the chair. They are not allowed to speak.

AN HON. MEMBER: When he does get up, he does not say anything anyhow.

MR. MATTHEWS: No. He rants and he roars, very partisan, turns white in the face. When he got up yesterday I said: Well here goes the old spite cat again, because when we were boys growing up and a fellow got a good kick in the shins and he got mad, you commonly referred to him as 'spite cat'. That is like the hon. member. His colour drains and he gets white - really, really white.

I want to carry on with what my colleague was talking about, the fishery, our most important resource - outside of our young people, I say to the Member for Eagle River.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: I cannot hear the member. Perhaps he will get up after I finish and give some ideas about our resource industries, and maybe ask some questions of what we think of this. Then when we get up again we can react to him; but it is kind of hard to listen to him because there is too much - they are having a mini caucus meeting over in the rowdy corner.

I want to talk about the fishery, to follow on what my colleague was talking about when he talked about the varied species of fish that are out and about our oceans, and the trouble most of them are in. The Member for Eagle River is right, there is more in the ocean than cod, but a lot of the other species as well are in serious trouble. I was saying it across the House to the Member for Fortune - Hermitage that last year, in part of my district, from Point May down to Lord's Cove particularly, we had a very good lump roe fishery, a very lucrative lump roe fishery. As a matter of fact, if it was not for that fishery last year, the inshore fishermen in that area would have been in real trouble. This year even that fishery is not going very well. I understand from the Member for Fortune - Hermitage that it seems to be going better in his area of the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Half decent. Well, if a fisherman tells you that they are doing half decent, they are not having a bad year.

AN HON. MEMBER: How would (inaudible)?

MR. MATTHEWS: How would I change the lump roe fishery?

AN HON. MEMBER: No. How would you change the whole fishery?

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, God. How would I change the whole fishery? Now that is a big question. That is a big question. How would you change the whole fishery? What a question. That is something like you would ask in junior Red Cross: Teacher, how would you change the world? Something like the hon. member asked: How would you change the whole fishery?

I want to go back to what my colleague was saying about the salmon, our salmon resources, and to talk about the buy out program. I want to say again to the Member for Eagle River, he knows anyway but he tries to be naive and play ignorant about this stuff, that the greatest proponents, the strongest proponents of the commercial salmon buy out program was the Premier and the Minister of Development, I say to the Member for Eagle River, in case he does not know. This program, even though most of the money is from the federal government, the Province I think is putting in $7.6 million, the strongest supporters, the people who really pushed this, were the Minister of Development and Tourism and the Premier. The Minister of Fisheries was not as strong on it I might say.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible) John Crosbie

MR. MATTHEWS: See, the Member for Eagle River does not like to hear the truth. He does not want to deal with the truth, that the Premier of this Province and the Minister of Development and Tourism pushed and pushed to get the commercial salmon buy out program in place, I say to the Member for Eagle River. The Minister of Fisheries was not all that strong about it. In fact I am told he had some problems with it. He had to be forced to go to the press conference, I am told. They almost had to push him into the press conference. He did not want to have anything to do with it. But as Minister of Fisheries what choice did he have? If he did not go to the press conference he would have had to pack his things and leave the office of Minister of Fisheries. He did not want to go along with it so the Member for Eagle River must understand that. He should understand that the government, of which he is a member, was the strongest proponent of that buy out. You have not put much money into anything since you have been the government but you put $7.6 million into this program and that should tell you something about the priority your government has attached to it.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I am not a member of government.

MR. MATTHEWS: You are not a member of the government? You are a member of the caucus.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. MATTHEWS: I am glad. Now, if I could get half a dozen over there to leave at least I might hear myself I say to the Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) there are two gone already.

MR. MATTHEWS: Two gone already I say to the member but there is no one else leaving I say to him. Speaking over his sources there is no one else leaving I say to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. I have very good eyesight but I cannot read what the Minister of Development has from that far away. If he wants me to read it he can pass it over.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. MATTHEWS: What is that? No, I cannot read that. If I could read it I probably would not.

I want to go on and talk about a few other things in the fishery, Mr. Speaker. Most of our stocks are in trouble and in my own district of Grand Bank the deep sea plant was closed down by Fishery Products International with the concurrence of the provincial government who put out a statement concurring with it, agreeing with it. Then we happened to attract the Clearwater Group of Companies to go into scallop and surf clam. We went into that. I know all about that I say to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. What he is shouting across the House now is no new news.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, 20 per cent, and 53 per cent undecided I say to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. It must be cold comfort to the minister, too, to know that 53 per cent of 400 people do not feel very happy with the government, Mr. Chairman. He is not too happy with that, Mr. Chairman, that 33 per cent of decided voters would support the government.

We will see. Like I told you yesterday watch the couple of by-elections, come back, and we will match our fortunes with yours.

DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, I do not smile about that stuff I say to the Minister of Finance. I have been through all this before. I can understand why, because he is like a new commodity, Mr. Chairman. Speaking of resources he is like a new commodity that the people of the Province do not see often enough. The novelty is not wore off because he spends most of his time in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. He is still new. He is never here long enough for the people to get used to him.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is an old timer.

MR. MATTHEWS: He's doing well. Five or six months, he is doing well, he will do much better, I say to the Member for Harbour Grace. He will do well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Now. Mr. Speaker, how ironic that the Member for Harbour Grace is talking about old commodities. Can you imagine the Member for Harbour Grace talking about old commodities?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, I know you're not. You have other problems, there are other problems. I still have my own teeth, I say to the Member for Harbour Grace.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) should be leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, I certainly should. I certainly should. Speaking of resources. I say to the Member for Harbour Grace, he probably feels very comfortable today.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, we will wait and see. You might run again yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) I will.

MR. MATTHEWS: You may run again yet. Now whether you will be back is the big question.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh my God. If I could only tell it all. You cannot tell everything in this House, Mr. Speaker. If you could only tell it all. We are going to have to beat them off with sticks out there, I say to the member. Beat them off with sticks.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. MATTHEWS: Pardon? Never you mind. They are already lining up to take out the Member for Harbour Grace.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to have a little discussion with the Minister of Development. Since a week ago in Estimates Committee we discovered there were -

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, but it is too bad the minister did not give us the information he promised us a week ago. Maybe the minister would like to indicate -

MR. FUREY: If I'd given it to you, you would have nothing to talk about.

MR. WINDSOR: Well, we would like to talk about that. We have waited for a week, we still do not have any answers, Mr. Speaker.

MR. FUREY: Okay, I'll tell you what - lecture me.

MR. WINDSOR: Lecture you. I will lecture the minister. The minister deserves to be lectured. He promised in the Estimates Committee a week ago that we would have it in a few days, certainly by the end of the week. This is Tuesday, a week later, no sign yet of any information from the minister. How long does it take to get that type of information?

MR. FUREY: As soon as I get it you will get it.

MR. WINDSOR: How long does the minister take? There are enough computers funded, Mr. Speaker, in this list that he could have turned out that information a thousand times over with any one of the computers that are financed here.

Maybe that is an interesting one to start off with. The minister was on the radio the other morning, debating with me on CBC radio, that this was: well, this is loans, that is all it is, straightforward, conventional loans. One of the first ones we see is a $250,000 equity injection into a computer company. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars equity into a computer company.

MR. FUREY: Are you against that?

MR. WINDSOR: I would like to know why the minister feels that is justified. How does the minister justify it? I would like to know what it is for, alright? If the minister had given us the information we would have a better basis on which to debate the issue. The minister has not yet given us the information.

That is $250,000 equity, okay? Debt retirement and working capital. That is what it says. That is hardly a conventional loan. The minister cannot say that getting a $250,000 equity injection - which means on that $250,000, that company is not repaying any of the principle. They are only paying perhaps dividends or interest, one or the other, on it. If it was a conventional loan and they were paying principle and interest back at conventional rates, well that's one thing. You can have some sympathy for that. As I have already said, as I said to the minister in Estimate Committees, and I have said in this House, and I have said on the public airwaves, that I have some sympathy for the government providing assistance to a company to try to save a company from going into bankruptcy, to protect jobs. I have some sympathy for that. Provided it does not give that company unfair advantage over other companies.

But an equity injection of $250,000 into a computer company is clearly a competitive situation. Unless this is some special research and development project, something aimed at high technology, technology transfer, something aimed at putting some technology into the fishing or forestry industry. If this is a special project, why is it not a special fund? Why is it not a grant to that company? Why is it equity injection? On the surface of it, Mr. Speaker, and in the absence of detailed information from the minister, I see no reason why this government should own part of a computer company.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you think we want to own a computer company?

MR. WINDSOR: I know you do not want to own a computer company. Then why are you part owner of a computer company when there are dozens of other computer companies out there competing with their own money? Why are you putting in $250,000 to help this company compete with others?

I could look back a little farther. One that I just saw, just in the last two or three moments, in fact, as I looked a little more carefully here at some of the ones that are here. It is Newlab Engineering Limited. Now that is an interesting one, Mr. Speaker, Newlab Engineering Limited of Clarke's Beach; now that name rings a little bell and that is used to purchase computer-aided drafting system. A good piece of technology, almost every engineering company in the Province now has one, so why are we giving this company $31,000 to purchase that? It is a term loan, but why can they not get a loan from the bank or somewhere else the same as any other engineering company, why can they not?

MR. FUREY: I will give you three guesses.

MR. WINDSOR: Pardon?

MR. FUREY: I will give you three guesses.

MR. WINDSOR: Give me three. Give me an answer will be better.

MR. FUREY: Have you been to the banks lately?

MR. WINDSOR: Pardon?

MR. FUREY: Have you been to the banks lately?

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, I have been to the banks lately, and so have other engineering companies, but why are we assisting one engineering company against the other, and yes, this is a term loan. I do not know the interest rates, the minister I hope, will give us that information but are these favourable interest rates or are these at the same rates as the bank? Is this prime minus 3 per cent, because if it is, they cannot get it at the bank -

AN HON. MEMBER: What are you talking about?

MR. WINDSOR: We are talking about Newlab Engineering Limited, is it term loan?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: It is a term loan, but what are the terms and conditions of that loan?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: It is a small enterprise loan, no?

AN HON. MEMBER: It won't be a small enterprise loan (inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Small enterprise loans are at 5 per cent ?

MR. FUREY: Three points below prime.

MR. WINDSOR: But some of them are at five?

MR. FUREY: Well, depending on what the prime is.

MR. WINDSOR: Some of your other loans are at prime less three.

MR. FUREY: A regular term loan, that particular one. I think it is at 12 per cent, I am not sure of it, I will check.

MR. WINDSOR: Okay, but is that more favourable than what that company could get at the bank or any other company could get at the bank?

MR. FUREY: I do not think so.

MR. WINDSOR: I think it is, I think we will find it is. If the minister will in due course, I do not know when, maybe he will tell us now. When will we get that information? I mean, how long does it take, Mr. Speaker, you have the list of projects, how long does it take to write out a (inaudible), to pull it out of the files, to haul it out of the computer? I cannot believe it would take anymore than one day for one individual to do it, so what are they trying to do, Mr. Speaker? What are we doing with the information?

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible), the information and I will tell you when I get it.

MR. WINDSOR: When will we get it?

MR. FUREY: When I get it, you get it.

MR. WINDSOR: When will we get it?

MR. FUREY: Who knows? Maybe it is on my desk this afternoon, I have asked for it.

MR. WINDSOR: I am surprised the minister does not know when he is going to get it.

MR. FUREY: My God, I mean when we asked for information when you guys were over here, we could not get it.

MR. WINDSOR: Ah, you got lots of information. Can the minister tell me this, Mr. Speaker? Newfoundland Armature Works Limited, $300,000 of equity of Newfoundland Armature Works Limited, to stabilize the firm -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Attempted to stabilize it. How much did we lose on Newfoundland Armature Works Ltd? On Generator Exchange, which again, competing with many other businesses, $74,000 equity. I believe that they have gone bankrupt since then and have actually been liquidated. Generator Exchange, I believe, Mr. Speaker, is in receivership. If I am wrong I apologise to the company, but I believe I am right. How many more companies in here have gone into receivership, I ask the minister, since money was funded to them in 1991?

MR. FUREY: We do not pretend that they are all winners. We (inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: No, they are not all winners, but when you look at two like that, that there were equity injections, how much has the minister lost, how much has government lost in the last year? $300,000 is one of the biggest ones that went into Generator Exchange, not Generator Exchange, into the other one, Newfoundland Armature Works Ltd. in October of 1991, October of 1991 - when did Newfoundland Armature Works Ltd. go into receivership? Three months later? $300,000 has been lost in three months on Newfoundland Armature Works Ltd.? I have to ask, Mr. Speaker, how well was that project assessed by Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador? $300,000 equity injection and they have gone into receivership in three months.

Are you telling me that the people up there are not qualified enough to assess the financial situation of that company, and know that they were going to be in receivership in three months time, even though we put $300,000 equity into it? I would like the minister to explain that. I know they are not all going to go. You are into a risk business here. The success ratio is relatively good for all of these. I am not questioning that. When you look at some of the conventional ones that are there, the small enterprise loans and things of that nature, you know you are not going to get them all back. If you were going to get them all back, government would not need to be in the business. Banks would be crawling over themselves to give it to you, but banks only give it to you if you do not need it. So I know where the minister is coming from when he says: Have you tried it lately?

The banks are another story.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. WINDSOR: I will have another opportunity; but I want to have a crack at the banks the next time I get on my feet, on another issue, and how they are gouging people.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development.

MR. FUREY: I will sit down if you want to attack the banks for awhile.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: If you would like to attack the conventional banks, and lay off our bank -

The hon. member, I think, raises some good points concerning Enterprise Newfoundland. I just thank God that at the Estimates the other night I tabled the list so that the opposition would have something to talk about, because they really did not seem to have that much to talk about, and that generated a little bit of excitement.

I will repeat again that one of the things we did at Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador, we want to be open, honest, and frank with the people of the Province who put up this capital that we use in an independent board, and that independent board makes its assessment based upon the specialists and the experts advice. I think they are doing a reasonable job under very difficult circumstances, because as my hon. friend said, and is about to say when he rises again, money is tight out there. Banks are tough. We see what is happening in the Province with the fishery and these other matters, and that reflects on the decisions that some of these banks make.

I was interested in seeing, from my quick bit of research, when the hon. member was the Minister of Development, and a member of the Cabinet, the decision was made for NLDC to shift from resource based industries to service based industries. It was a good and proper decision to make, and perhaps it should have been made earlier. So he would agree that we are on the right track, trying to help companies. I think that he would agree with the premise that we are trying to be open and we are trying to make this money, which is owned by all the people, available to all businesses.

Now there is a little code that we put on the end of the loan list that my hon. friend saw. It says: Either to establish a business, to expand a business, to modernize a business, for a straight buy out, or to stabilize a business. Those are the principles upon which we operate, to pass out this money in the form of loans.

He is quite right when he says the closest we come in terms of grants is by way of equity. That is the closest we come to giving grants, but we take the position that if we come in with equity, at the first reasonable opportunity we try to back out of that and move our money back out of the company and let it move back 100 per cent.

My hon. friend can point to some failures. There is no question about that. This is high risk capital. Nobody is pretending that every single company that comes through the doors of Enterprise Newfoundland is going to be successful. All we can do is examine the company's record, its financial statements, its other sources of capital, whether it be ACOA, private lending institutions, these kinds of things - whether it is the private banks, ACOA, or these other institutions. Now what Enterprise does then is they will assess each company on its own merit. The company will apply for a particular type of loan. In the regions we have given authority for the first time to approve these loans under $100,000, right in the regions.

Now my hon. friend points to some failures. He calls them failures. We call them attempts to stabilise businesses. Whether it is Armature Works from St. John's - who could be against looking at their balance sheet as an old historic Newfoundland company, as I understand. The Member for St. John's Centre could probably correct me. Armature Works is an old, historic company, been around a long time. I do not know if they are in direct competition with too many people. So we tried our best to help them out.

But one of the issues my hon. friend raised in Estimates the other night was the so-called chicken and ribs story. I was intrigued by that one myself, so I asked about it right away.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: So I asked about that myself. My hon. friend will be happy to know that there was market research done in the Gander area. It was analyzed by the experts. They recognised that there was room for an extra franchise. This particular person put his own family capital on the table. They came into it with $100,000 of their own private investment. We matched it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Pardon?

MR. WINDSOR: So what?

MR. FUREY: That's not bad, that's pretty good. To share half the risk.

MR. WINDSOR: (Inaudible) would you give me $100,000 (Inaudible)?

MR. FUREY: I could talk about a lot of companies that went through NLDC that did not -

MR. WINDSOR: Not to put chicken and rib franchises up (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: - put up very much.

MR. WINDSOR: Not to compete with others! Not to take business away from other businesses, and that is all it does.

MR. FUREY: But I will not get involved in that.

MR. WINDSOR: What? (Inaudible) yes, you will!

MR. FUREY: A hundred thousand dollars, Mr. Speaker, at 12.25 per cent interest. They projected nine full-time jobs and three permanent part-time jobs. In fact, what happened is they created -

MR. WINDSOR: How many were lost in McDonalds, Kentucky Fried and Mary Brown?

MR. FUREY: In fact, Mr. Speaker, they created six permanent jobs, nine part-time jobs. They are on a sixty-month repayment at 12.25 per cent. Their loan is up to date, and our experts in the field tell us there has been no displacement of jobs.

MR. WINDSOR: Nonsense!

MR. FUREY: I'll sit down if you can tell me that's nonsense. Prove it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, will the minister tell me how you can sell all of that fast food in Gander and not take the market away from others? That is the principle we are talking about here. People don't eat more just because there is a chicken and rib franchise! You have added nothing to the economy. There are no more chicken and ribs sold because you add another franchise and put $100,000 of taxpayers' money into it. That means there is less Kentucky Fried Chicken, less Mary Brown's, less pizza, less something else. So there are jobs lost. What nonsense!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) that's not how the business works!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. WINDSOR: The hon. gentleman over there doesn't know how the business works either, Mr. Speaker, or he wouldn't be here!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: He's retired in here, you ought to retire outside.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Development.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Member for Mount Pearl presumes that all of Gander are on some kind of collective diet. The reality is - let me say something to the hon. member. A proper business plan was done by this company. A proper market survey was done by this company.

MR. WINDSOR: Therefore it should be financed by the banks, not by (inaudible)!

MR. FUREY: The best expert advice - well, see, you can't win. You concoct a double-edge sword. Either they are not eating enough chicken and ribs, and if they are we shouldn't be giving it to them. So you concoct a double-edge sword. Just imagine, Mr. Speaker, if a proper market study had been done on Sprung. Just imagine if a proper market analysis -

MR. WINDSOR: It was done, and analyzed by the same people (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: - had been done. Just imagine, Mr. Speaker, had it been analyzed properly, how much money we would - the hon. member says it was done. Tell us, what did the market survey say? What was your analysis? And what did the experts tell you, as a Cabinet minister, on this issue?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Well, what did they say? Did they say: do it?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FUREY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is the chicken and ribs story that my hon. friend keeps referring to. He is going to love this one. There was a worm factory, just imagine.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: No no, this was in Burnside. Now, Mr. Speaker, this fellow Crocker moved back from away. He saw, as did ACOA, that if ACOA put up $27,000 and Enterprise put up $10,000 -

AN HON. MEMBER: Put all the people of St. Jude's out of business!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: - they would provide, Mr. Speaker -

- displace imports. Now, my hon. friend from Mount Pearl always talks about displacing imports. Just imagine, in this Province, importing worms. How ridiculous!

So he provides thirty-eight outlets in the Bonavista area. Now ,it is a small, family business, and we only kicked in a very small loan of $10,000 - well worth doing.

Let me try this one on you. The fellow from Cormack who came to us and said, 'We would like a very small loan to create a business to shave hooves of cattle.'

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) question that one.

MR. FUREY: Would you like to question that one?

AN HON. MEMBER: No. Tell us about the ones (inaudible), not about the ones we don't (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Oh, you do not want to hear about them?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: An excellent project.

Then we have a Christmas tree firm with another group out in Garden Cove, a small loan to displace the importation of Christmas trees.

AN HON. MEMBER: We should be exporting Christmas trees.

MR. FUREY: Absolutely. We should be.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. FUREY: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. FUREY: Gulf Seafoods at Port aux Basques, we helped them out a little bit. I didn't hear too many complaints coming from out there, and it was a term loan.

By the way, the fellow from Cormack who was, I guess you would call it hoof trimming, so that the nails don't go into the animal's feet. They cripple the animals enough, they go to the slaughter house. By the way, my friend from Humber Valley, the member will confirm this, that we used to import somebody to do that every year. Now, the fellow from Cormack does the whole West Coast.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is not only the West Coast. He does the whole Island.

MR. FUREY: He does the whole Island. And that was a small loan to get him up and running and get started.

Diamond Industries in Flower's Cove; Steelcore out in Buchans, they just landed another million dollar contract, but we kickstarted that and helped them get under way.

Valley Char, Deer Lake. You know about that business, a good little business. I think we helped the little fellow on the highway with the museum at the beginning of the Viking Trail - Tucker. Yes, we helped them get rolling too, and that is a fantastic little museum. It is a tourist stop-off point.

Deer Lake Woodworks, a good one. I have one in Port au Choix, right in my own district. We helped a small business there. It was a small bakery, and it has expanded now. They are doing a terrific job. A little restaurant we helped in Gunners Cove, on the Northern Peninsula, Mrs. Smith. High Point Peat in Bishop's Falls, we helped that little company stabilize.

We helped an egg producers co-op get an important piece of computer equipment for egg production, believe it or not, and it has helped him in the grading. We put $65,000 into an egg grading machine.

Members on all sides can giggle and laugh at these projects, but I tell you, they are important. They are small projects, but they are really important out there.

The little scallop operation in Trinity Bay that we helped, Highland Homes, Sunset Lodge, we helped out for this. Wabana Inn on Bell Island. Now, if there is ever an area we should help, it is Bell Island.

We talk about being isolated on this Island portion of our Province. Just imagine how people on Bell Island feel ever since they lost their mine?

We put $5,000 into a mural project on Bell Island, which ACOA came in with their grant, and I tell you, it is just fantastic. I commend it to people from all sides of the House to go to Bell Island to see that. Another thing we did, a local person bought the convent over there, the old convent house. We helped provide the seed money to help transform that into a bed and breakfast. They call it the Wabana Inn Bed and Breakfast - fantastic, phenomenal - on Bell Island. These are good little projects, right from the ground up.

Hal Barrett's Harbour Pond Development in Brigus, my predecessor, has a terrific little business out there. Enterprise has helped him.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is he doing?

MR. FUREY: He is doing a bed and breakfast. Has my colleague been out to it? It is very good. He is doing a terrific job, the former Minister of Tourism. I talked to him the other day - delighted to help him get the thing going and moving. He is expanding a little bit now. He is hung up on ACOA.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: He is hung up. Everything he told me the other day jived. Everything was fine.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Would be glad to do it.

A small dressmaker in Labrador West; a tour bus operator in Labrador West. L'Anse-au-Clair - we helped a little garage in L'Anse-au-Clair stabilize. They were hurting and couldn't get the funding. We put some money in it to stabilize them. A millwright shop in Bonavista, a trucking outfit, a boat building outfit, a party supplies store in Clarenville. We helped them out.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Yes, but we are not embarrassed by small enterprise you see. We recognize that we shouldn't be embarrassed by little business people out there trying their best in a difficult economy to create jobs one by one - not a hundred by a hundred at $24 million per pop for six months - one by one, and we think that is the right philosophy, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) to everybody.

MR. FUREY: It is open to everybody.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is not.

MR. FUREY: Who is it closed to?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Every single person has an opportunity to come in through our doors. Now, there are going to be some off-the-wall projects, make no mistake about it, and the hon. member would be familiar with that. But, you know, we have to deal in reality. We have to deal with them one by one, each one by each one.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FUREY: I wasn't finished, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member was speaking on leave of the House, right?

MR. FUREY: May I finish? I will only be a minute or so.

MR. WINDSOR: You were going to tell us something about the projects we are interested in.

MR. FUREY: I was going to get to that.

MR. WINDSOR: You were going to get that. When I am finished you can tell me more about it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WINDSOR: All the Minister has done, Mr. Speaker, is stand up -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has not recognized the hon. member.

The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, all the minister tried to do is deflect attention away from the projects that are a problem for him here by talking about the many good projects that are here. We are not questioning those projects. There are many very, very good projects there, and that is the purpose of the program. That is the purpose of the funding. and the objective is to create employment in resource-based industries to help those businesses that need help, but not at the expense of others. That is all we are trying to get at here.

We welcome their bed and breakfasts, and their worm factories. You know, that is an innovative little idea. There are 1,000 little ideas like worm factories in this Province if we could get out there and encourage Newfoundlanders to take a bit of a risk. Newfoundlanders are sometimes reticent to take a chance, but they need a little bit of support and they need a little bit of encouragement and they need a little bit of financial assistance, Mr. Speaker, to do those sorts of things.

I don't have a problem in the world with those sorts of things. I have a real problem with some of these other ones that are here that the minister avoids. Why are we funding somebody to upgrade an asphalt plant? Will the minister tell me how he is going to convince us that by financing one construction company to upgrade their facilities to the detriment of other construction companies that they are going to bid on? I assume they are going to have to bid on contracts unless they are going to be (inaudible) without public tenders. I hope the minister is not proposing to start that.

How does he justify? There are two paving contractors here, and several other construction companies, electrical companies, plumbing contractors, that have received funding. That doesn't add anything to the economy that another plumbing contractor or another electrical contractor, or another paving contractor wouldn't have done. If there are ten miles of road to be paved, it doesn't matter to this Province which paving contractor paves it as long as it's a Newfoundland contractor. If he were the only Newfoundland contractor, I wouldn't have an argument. If we were funding him to make it more competitive with a contractor coming in from out-of-Province,I wouldn't have a problem with it. If he were saying, we are giving him local preference, which this government seems to have done away with, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But when I see one paving contractor being given money to upgrade his facilities so that he can bid against other paving contractors unfairly. Now, the minister is going to be standing there a long time before he can justify that to me.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: How how does the minister justify, Mr. Speaker, funding such a thing? How does he justify funding the Cosy Corner Lounge to the tune of $60,000? I know it is a conventional loan. But if that lounge is having a problem it means because some other lounge is taking the business away. That is called the free enterprise system. Why are we assisting one lounge owner to compete with another lounge owner? You cannot tell me there are jobs created by that.

It would be almost as bad if I went out into Lewisporte and gave some funds to a drugstore to compete with my friend from Lewisporte. See how quick he would be on his feet. I am surprised the Member for Mount Scio has not been screaming about the chicken and rib franchise. He cannot, because he is a in a conflict of interest position. Hardly free enterprise, hardly a justifiable use of taxpayers' money.

The minister talked about one up in his district, but there are lots of them up in his district we could have a look at. Plenty of them up in his district we could have a look at. There is one up in Labrador City, R R M S Enterprises, $45,000 equity, working capital for a restaurant. Why are we owning part of a restaurant? Why do we own shares in a restaurant? Are you telling me that is not going to be to the detriment of other restaurants in Labrador City and Wabush that are operating on their own money, and finding it darn hard right now?

Tell us about the Cape Ray Volunteer Fire Brigade. Why are we using Enterprise development money to purchase materials to construct a community centre?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: I am sure it is a nice community centre, I am sure they need the community centre. But so do 1,500 other communities in this Province. Why is Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador providing building materials to build a community centre? This is not business, Mr. Speaker, that is a direct handout. Now we would like to know.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where, where?

MR. WINDSOR: This is in Cape Ray. Who was involved in that, Mr. Speaker, that they were able to get some money from that source? There are thousands of community centres in this Province which would like to have that kind of money. Thousands.

Graham's Auto Repair, St. Anthony. To renovate building and site and purchase equipment. There are a dozen garages in St. Anthony. Why are we helping Graham's Auto Repair, Mr. Speaker? These are the ones that we want to hear about. Not the many good and valid ones that are there.

Tell us about Dahwell Limited, in Wiltondale, I believe that is up around the minister's district. Wiltondale. Alright? Why are we developing off-highway parking lots? Now what was that for? Off-highway parking lots. I do not understand really what it is or what it does, so maybe there is a good and valid reason. Does it help the tourism or the transportation industries, or something? Maybe there is a reason for that one, I do not know. But we would like to know that.

Cottages of Newfoundland. Purchase opening inventories and legal fees to open a restaurant. Again we are funding restaurants. Tourism is a gray area. We fund bed-and-breakfasts, we fund motels, we fund tourist attractions that attract people to come to an area, or cause them to stay in an area to spend their money in an area. That is somewhat doubtful, because you are only taking tourist dollars from central Newfoundland and moving them to the northern peninsula, or vice versa. But we can also say: we are attracting lots of tourist dollars from outside of the Province. We have always done that.

But we have stayed away from restaurants, which are clearly competitive. We have stayed away from lounges, which are taboo altogether. Never has there been money go in to a lounge that I can recall. On what basis do we put money into lounges? There is a couple of them here. There is one that... I do not recall where it is here now, but I will find it. It was funding for a lounge to be attached to a motel to make the motel more profitable. I have a little bit of sympathy for that, except every time we approve funding for a motel we always said: your motel and your restaurant, as part of a motel, and even if that restaurant serves alcoholic beverages with a meal, it is still a family restaurant, as food service for the patrons of a hotel.

That lounge portion was always separate. The reason it was, Mr Speaker, because you always had everybody coming in and saying: I want to build a motel, four rooms and a restaurant, twenty square feet and a lounge 2000 square feet, so you were getting funding for lounges under the guise of funding motels, so that appears to be a drastic change, Mr. Speaker. There is one in Lourdes in western Newfoundland, to purchase an established restaurant. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that a remote area? Was that a remote area where there is no other restaurant? If that was up somewhere in a remote area of coastal Labrador or on the southern coast of the Province where it was the only restaurant, but Lourdes is not exactly remote to my recollection. It is a nice little community, Lourdes, but I am not sure that the minister can justify the fact that we are funding a restaurant because otherwise there is nowhere for people to eat. It is not that far away from Piccidilly and a dozen other communities on the Port au Port Peninsula.

A laundromat in Stephenville, Mr. Speaker. Are they telling us that the people in Stephenville are so hard up to wash their clothes that the Province has to put money into a laundromat? Is there nobody out there who will fund a laundromat? How many laundromats are there in Stephenville? Is this the only one? It is not the only one I am sure so why are we funding this one to the detriment of others? Why are we funding a laundromat? I am not sure but I know there is more than one. There is one in Deer Lake in my colleague's district.

Refinancing existing debt for concrete aggregates supplies business. Retire bank debt and restore working capital for a construction company in Humber Village. Now who is this construction company in Humber Village? Is that not an exclusive residential area on the other side of the Humber River? Is that not Humber Village? I did not know there was a construction company over there so this must be an individual who lives over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: A fellow Johnson.

MR. WINDSOR: It is what? Oh, Johnson Construction. Then it must be a home and no doubt a very elaborate home in Humber Village. Retire bank debt and restore working capital. There are lots of companies in this Province who would love to have somebody retire their debt and give them some working capital. There are lots of construction companies out there who are selling their construction equipment at thirty cents on the dollar. Why has this particular construction company been given money to retire their debt and restore working capital? These are the questions the minister has to answer and not whether or not somebody is serving thirty-eight worm outlets. Those types of projects are fine and good. There are lots of good ones there and we have not questioned them. I can list them off as well as the minister can, all of the good ones there, just on the surface. Maybe some of those need to be looked at but on the surface they appear to be projects that are good and valid, all kinds of them.

Expanded bakery operation. I do not have a problem with expanding a bakery operation because it is manufacturing but I can tell the minister this, that I had a call a couple of days ago from a person who applied for funding for a bakery and he was told by Enterprise Newfoundland, no, we do not fund bakeries. Why are we funding one and not another one? I can tell the minister that that particular little proposed bakery was in an area where there is no other service. He is not competing with anyone. I will give the minister details privately if he is interested and he can investigate it. There is no other bakery serving that area. He is operating a bakery there now but he needs some funds to expand his operation, to get proper ovens and mixers because he is doing it by hand. He is trying to make a living and has created three jobs now. He created three jobs on his own initiative, and asked Enterprise Newfoundland for a few dollars to expand the operation, to get into a little bit of tourism stuff, and to expand his bakery. You said: No, do not bother to go any further. He went through the trouble of having a business plan put together and then was told: No, that is it. Do not bother to come any further.

There are all kinds of good projects here, but construction companies, I cannot justify that one. I look at some of the faces opposite. How much did we lose at St. Christopher's Resort? I am not being critical of St. Christopher's Resort, because it was an extremely good initiative. In fact, it was one that I initiated, and I would like to see St. Christopher's go, and we need to support that sort of a thing. But I would like to know how much we have lost there.

How about Body Trim Studios, tanning salons? Why are we funding this? And there is one there somewhere, an aesthetic thing. I do not know what it is. I lost it now. Here it is, establishment of an aesthetics beauty service in Labrador City. Seventeen thousand dollars to establish an aesthetics beauty service. Twenty-six thousand dollars to establish a beauty parlour in Marystown, where there are fifteen or twenty or thirty other beauty parlours, but we are putting $26,000 into a beauty salon in somebody's basement in Marystown. Now can the minister tell me why we are funding beauty parlours?

If this is the policy, then let the minister announce it. He is trying to say that everybody can come in and seek assistance from Enterprise Newfoundland. They are turned away by the thousands. They are told: Do not bother to come in because that type of business does not qualify. Then when we see forty or fifty here that have been funded, when others have been turned away, we have to say: What is the policy? Why are these funded?

I hope the minister can stand in his place tomorrow or the next day, certainly no later than Friday, and give us the information. I hope he can show me that every one of these ones that I have questioned are legitimate: There is something about them that we do not know, and here is why we did it, and the policy is consistent. I do not believe for a moment he is able to do it. That is why he spent a week already and has not come up with any answers on it.

You cannot tell me that there are not enough resources up in Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador to put together information on those few projects.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. WINDSOR: Pluck them out of a computer. Give me an hour at their computer terminal and I will pluck them out!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development.

MR. FUREY: The hon. member seems to be doing a lot of plucking over there.

Look, the hon. member had his ten minutes to shout. That is essentially what he did - shout. We do not start from the premise that we are perfect. I will guarantee you, we are honest enough, unlike former governments, to say that we do not start from the premise that we are perfect. We start from the premise that we believe there are a lot of small and medium size businesses out there that require help.

Now the hon. member got the list the other night, a couple of nights ago in Estimates, and thank God I brought it, because they had nothing else to talk about. The Chairman of the Estimates Committee can verify that. They had nothing to talk about. I came to estimates. I said: Any questions? They mumbled and jumbled and stammered, and finally found someone to ask something, a few intelligent questions from Humber Valley, as I recall. Other than the tabling of the list, they would have been stymied. I guess we did such a great job in development and tourism and that kind of thing, that there was not much for them to talk about.

So we start from the premise that we are not perfect. Having started from that premise we move forward, recognizing that this capital is high risk. How high risk?.... very high risk capital. Make no mistake about it. It is very high risk capital. But with the state of our economy, and the attitudes of the banks, we have to in essence, provide some source of funding to help stabilize businesses, to help them expand or modernize, to help small businesses begin, as the ones that I talked about in Humber Valley and Labrador and St. Lawrence and other places, and in Lourdes, for a buy out of that little restaurant protecting the two or three family jobs, and that kind of thing. I am sure the Member for Port au Port is not against that kind of thing. He understands the reality that there is a little bit of room for that restaurant in Lourdes in his district. The Member for Mount Pearl can criticize because he has a fine, booming economy in Mount Pearl, but come to Lourdes, come out to Lourdes and say hello to some of those people in the real rural areas and that is where we are aiming these projects.

Now, are we perfect? No. Are 100 per cent of these loans perfect? No. But, Mr. Speaker, are we honest enough to table all the companies?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Yes. Are we honest enough to place on the table all of the amounts, the percentages, the reasons? Yes. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have given the first full year -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), they are not all tabled.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member came to us and asked Enterprise to help with a little project for Emile Benôit's Compact Disc, did we turn our backs on him? No, Mr. Speaker, we put $5,000 on the table, and by the way, the cheque is on my desk, it is not in the mail, and another $2,000 for Emile, for $7,000 which kick started another we hope, $13,000 which will kick start Emile Benôit's Music Preserved Forever And A Day on compact disc; did Enterprise turn their back on him in Black Duck Brook? No, we did not, but I will tell you, the Member for Mount Pearl would be up criticizing that, because there is no direct benefit that he can see to having Emile Benôit's wonderful music, including the song the 'Jim Hodder Reel' preserved forever on compact disc.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Well, we thought that that was worthwhile and had some tourism benefit. And that is the truth by the way, I do have the other cheque.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Mount Pearl asked about specific businesses. I have made a public commitment to him that every business he would like background information on, we will give. Now it takes some little while to compile that as it took a while to compile this computer list. Perhaps I released it a bit prematurely, I should have waited for the backup documents, but I do not mind releasing that, but I will tell you what we had to weigh in the balance here.

We had to weigh whether to release these 400 companies at the risk of these companies being beaten up on by the opposition, beaten up on by the media, taking a pounding out there in the public as though they had done something wrong. They have not done anything wrong. They have come upon some hard times, they cannot get normal banking so they came to us. What's wrong with that? Is there anything fundamentally wrong with that? Should the opposition be up helter-skelter, beating up on companies who cannot defend themselves? Well -

AN HON. MEMBER: There are so many more that you turned down (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: But I ask hon. members to bring them to my attention and I will be glad to investigate them. Here is an interesting statistic. 90 per cent of all the inquiries at Enterprise - members will be interested in this - 90 per cent of all the inquiries we get are for information and help, business help. 10 per cent ask for money and of the 10 per cent, as I said before the hon. Member for Mount Pearl left, we had to take a big risk here, putting these companies out here, the amounts of their loans, the interest rates. I will give the hon. Member for Mount Pearl this, I think he mentioned to the vice-president the other night, you marked in yellow the companies in which you were interested. I have asked them to give me that and as soon as I have it, you have it. There is nothing to hide, but you know, the risk you see, and I say this honestly to my hon. friend, the risk of doing this is that you beat up on companies unfairly. You take their names and toss them into the public media unfairly-

AN HON. MEMBER: That was what you guys did when you were in opposition.

MR. FUREY: I tell you we could not get the information; we asked for it but we could not get it, but that is the risk of laying it on the table and hon. members across the way know what I am saying is true.

AN HON. MEMBER: We do not go beating up on companies.

MR. FUREY: No, it is not beating up on companies. It is when you start beating them around publicly like that it is not really fair to them. I do not think it is but that is up to you guys to do and hopefully you will do it responsibly. Of course it is and the public can come and look at the documents and all that but all I am saying is that, if you take company x and you say: Now we would like to know what kind of bogeyman is there? That is not fair to company x. Those people went through the proper procedures and, I presume did everything normally, legally and all the rest of it. It is not fair to cast bogeymen into companies if they are not really there. That is the risk we had to take, by laying these documents on the table.

I am sure my hon. friend for Mount Pearl would also equally be just as indignant at ACOA, because ACOA, like Enterprise, aren't saints. They aren't perfect. I know of cases right in my own district, I say to my friend from Mount Pearl, I have one case that is really sad actually. This fellow and his family spent all of their time and money in the last fifteen years developing a trailer camping lot. My friend from Humber Valley knows who I am talking about. It is not far from his district. They put a lot of time and energy into that. They put, I think, well over $200,000 into it. A lot of sweat and equity went into it. They are just getting established. When I say established I don't mean they are just getting their lot serviced and all that, no. They are getting established in terms of getting their market share and getting trailers and caravans to come in, that kind of thing. You know, it just really blew my mind last year when I picked up a copy of the local paper and saw ACOA giving a grant of up to 60 per cent, I believe it was, up to $350,000 to another company two miles up the road.

Now, I am not here to bash ACOA and I don't want to do that. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying, because I think ACOA is doing some pretty darn good work too. I confess to you, Enterprise aren't saints and we are not perfect, nor is ACOA. And I ask ACOA to be vigilant in that regard, on the competitive factor, too. I am telling Enterprise daily: Be vigilant. If there is somebody in the region and there is no room for growth, let's not do to small industry what happened to the fish. So we are asking them to be careful on that.

Every company that my friend from Mount Pearl has asked for I committed three or four or five days ago to get it for him. As soon as -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FUREY: Who is this member? Where are you from? What is going on here?

AN HON. MEMBER: Wrong Legislature.

MR. FUREY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows all the good work we have done in his district, and it wasn't through Enterprise. How about the park project down at Cape St. George? What a brilliant project that was that we funded. Who pushed the federal government to complete the road down there and announced it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: You were with me. That is right.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. FUREY: I announced it on behalf of the federal/provincial governments under the Trunk Roads Agreement.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who got the agreement, long before you guys were even in power?

MR. FUREY: Who has a deep, compassionate concern for that district?

AN HON. MEMBER: Not you.

AN HON. MEMBER: It was me. Yes, sir.

MR. FUREY: Who delivered?

Anyway, we are doing lots of good things around the Province, Mr. Speaker.

I will just conclude by saying that we are not perfect. The hon. member can go through this list and pick and focus on companies and say, without knowledge and full documentation: Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Attack those companies and attack the government. But I just ask him to reserve comment another little while, hold his fire, and if we deserve to be criticized, Mr. Speaker, I tell him, turn his cannons on us and turn his cannons on Enterprise. We want Enterprise to function and be the best that it can be for small and medium size businesses. There is nothing to hide, it is all tabled, and in due course they will have the backup information.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, it has been interesting listening to the Minister of Development and the Member for Mount Pearl in their little debate and their spat about this list. It is very interesting because both of them made some very good points, I would have to say. I found it an informative debate, because the Member for Mount Pearl has certainly picked some flaws in the minister's list which raise some very serious questions about the program. Overall, as we said, we think it is a good list for the most part, a good list, good programs, good projects, doing some good things out and about rural Newfoundland which we support. But there are some questions about it and the minister is going to get us the answers.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is that?

MR. MATTHEWS: I said basically it is a good list, but there are some problems with it.

MR. FUREY: Where?

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, the minister has the problems highlighted and he is going to get the answers for the Member for Mount Pearl, he says, which we look forward to.

I have to say to the minister, as I said from my seat, he said there have been proposals in to Enterprise Newfoundland that have been rejected, similar, almost identical proposals to what is on the minister's list. A lot of the reasons that the people were told, and I guess it probably varies with the regional offices around the Province, is that they are dealing with different individuals and different interpretations. But they say that if it is any way competitive with anything already established then don't come talking to us. Basically that is what they have been told.

Now we find on this list there are a lot of things being funded that compete directly with some businesses already established. That is the concern that we have about it. If you are going to fund businesses to compete with already established businesses then do it wholesale and whole scale.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible) market study.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me say to the President of Treasury Board, you are not going to do market studies for every proposal that comes to Enterprise Newfoundland.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, but you don't automatically turn them down because you deem them to be competitive, I say to the President of Treasury Board, which has been done in more cases than not in this situation. We talked about bakeries and others here. I mean I know of proposals that have gone in for bakeries and they have said: don't bother, there is one up the street from where you are proposing to start up. Don't talk to us. Okay, they have been rejected, but in other cases it has been funded I say.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible) there was a tremendous demand in that area for more.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well that could very well be, but let me just tell you something. One thing that wasn't needed to be funded in Marystown was another beauty salon I say to the President of Treasury Board. There are more beauty salons in rural Newfoundland, every third house has a beauty parlour in the basement.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible) beauty parlour more often.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well there would probably be need for more. The only thing I can say to the President of Treasury Board is that the only thing I know that the one in Marystown is for, is a private beauty salon for the Member for Burin - Placentia West and it's going full time. He is not here so I can get away with that today.

AN HON. MEMBER: He needs it more than you.

MR. MATTHEWS: Not much more, but a little bit more. But -

AN HON. MEMBER: I think he is after going too often.

MR. MATTHEWS: And he went once too often. They say you keep going to the well once too often. Well that is what happened to me.

AN HON. MEMBER: You never realize (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: That is right. Exactly. But having said that, that is what draws into question the projects that we have raised questions about here, and the asphalt plant and other things. I mean, God, there are so many asphalt plants in this Province, unless there is something exceptional or extraordinary about this particular one, which there is not. I mean how could you fund it? How could you support it.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are probably right.

MR. MATTHEWS: I'm not probably right, I am right. I am right. I know I'm right.

AN HON. MEMBER: Upgrading an asphalt plant.

MR. MATTHEWS: Upgrading an asphalt plant. For the love of God. Can you imagine?

AN HON. MEMBER: No specifications whatsoever.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about chicken and ribs.

MR. MATTHEWS: Chicken and ribs. That is one of the worst ones next to the beauty salon.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is the worst.

MR. MATTHEWS: Next to the beauty salon, that is the second worst in -

AN HON. MEMBER: The runner-up.

MR. MATTHEWS: The runner-up for whatever.

AN HON. MEMBER: Well, then, you don't need government financing.

MR. MATTHEWS: See, that is the member's argument. If the market study showed that the chicken and ribs place was going to do a booming business, what in the name of God is Enterprise Newfoundland being involved in it for? Obviously, based upon the study and the analysis, if it were going to be profitable, the bank would loan the money, so what the heck are you adding to it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: I have no idea, I tell him, what happens these days.

AN HON. MEMBER: You should spend your money to develop the economy (inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: I have no idea. I don't have any trouble getting money when I go to the bank, market study or no market study. The bank doesn't demand that I have a market study on anything I go to the bank for.

AN HON. MEMBER: Because you don't go.

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, that I do go, I say to the minister, and I go quite often. I go quite often. If he soon doesn't lift that freeze I'm probably not going to be allowed to go to the bank many more times. The bank manager is always calling me in - 'Bill, my son -'

AN HON. MEMBER: That's his well.

MR. MATTHEWS: That is right.

- 'How long more can we carry this overdraft?'

I want to talk a bit about the fishery and the situation in my own district, my hometown of Grand Bank, with the new Clearwater proposal, a new fishery for Newfoundland and Labrador, the processing of scallops, and surf clams soon. Things have gone very well there. There are over 200 people employed now. A whole new fishery, and if there hadn't been a downturn in the groundfish industry it would never have been started, which is sad, because that resource has been off our shores for years and years and years, but what did it take to bring it to a head?

There was a small boat fishery going on there for a couple of years landing at Grand Bank, and a hand shucking operation, and now we have Clearwater that is harvesting scallops and processing them. But, you know, when you talk about resource industries you would think that government would be very receptive in this time of crisis to help out the fishing industry.

In a situation of the town of Grand Bank, the federal government are involved various means through ACOA, the company is involved exposed for some $4 million or $5 million. And there was a problem developed after, they wanted a supply of water. They wanted a new salt water line to come into the plant. It cost about a quarter of a million dollars. They went to this government right here. That is all they asked from this government. The only help they wanted was some help with their water line, and you know something, they got rejected. They got rejected by this government, and yet they will jump on the band wagon about Clearwater. The Minister of Fisheries was down there to the opening trying to take some credit for what has happened with Clearwater in Grand Bank. And you know something, they didn't do a thing, didn't do a thing for Clearwater. A request was in for help with the water line, a supply of salt water for the Grand Bank operation, and it was rejected by this government. The President of Treasury Board is looking at me now as if he doubts that is correct or he cannot remember if a request came in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, and it was rejected. This provincial government would not even put in $100,000 towards that waterline, a project that has cost $14 or $15 million and is going to employ about 300 people. Now, that is how much help Grand Bank got from ministers opposite.

AN HON. MEMBER: Is it working now?

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, it is working, in spite of the provincial government, I say to the member. In spite of this government that plant is working, and when you corner them on it they say, 'Well, we issued the processing licences,' as if they would have the gall to dare not issue processing licences for that, but that is what they put into it. The Minister of Fisheries was down to the opening a few weeks ago and he said - it is quite amazing when you have been through it all like I have - he said, 'I was convinced that Grand Bank would and must survive and continue the day they came to the lobby of Confederation Building and demonstrated.' Now, that is what he said. That is the day he was convinced. We were all convinced before that we would survive and continue in the fishery in some way.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: The President of Treasury Board says what? - the fact that it is working vindicates it all? Maybe it does, but my point is, since we are talking about resource industries here, with our fishery in the state it is in, when you get an opportunity to create employment such as this was in the scallop industry and the surf clam industry then as least this government should have been supportive. We have a situation that I have asked questions about on two occasions now to the Minister of Fisheries of the Minister of Health's district of Roddickton.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible) unnecessarily.

MR. MATTHEWS: This is not unnecessarily. This is a case in Roddickton where there is potential for crab processing and this government has not lifted a finger to help them. They have not lifted a finger, I say to the President of Treasury Board.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: But there are times they need a little more help.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, it is federal money, I say to the minister. I found that out since - I asked the minister was $250,000 of provincial money going into the plant. The minister couldn't answer it. He didn't think so, but I found out since that it was federal dollars that went in there. I have the answer to that now. That is fine, I understand that, but I asked the question because I wanted to know and the people needed to know.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: You know all about it too well, I say to the Minister of Health. Maybe he should be the one of whom we ask the questions, but we can't ask him.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why don't you do that?

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, you would not answer it if you could - but we cannot ask the Minister of Health that question because we have to ask it of the Minister of Fisheries. Now, if the Minister of Fisheries gives way for the Minister of Health to answer the questions, maybe that is what should happen when we revisit that issue again if we decide to, but I think now most of the answers are flowing out about that situation, but the people -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Sorry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you listen (inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No I do not listen to that very often.

AN HON. MEMBER: You should.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, I will listen to it this evening and we will see the situation - but you know they finished it, there are a lot of questions about that situation, the people up there are interested in processing crab and that is what it is about -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MATTHEWS: -not about anything else and they think they should have that opportunity.

I believe I could go on for a couple minutes?

What I am saying is -

AN HON. MEMBER: More roping.

MR. MATTHEWS: The Minister of Health always sings out: more rope -

AN HON. MEMBER: No, by leave, not more rope.

MR. MATTHEWS: More rope. Yes, more rope now. Now on this Roddickton situation, Mr. Speaker, I would say it is going to be quite interesting to find out who gets the noose in this one, who gets the noose -

AN HON. MEMBER: On what?

MR. MATTHEWS: On the Roddickton situation, who gets the noose? Now there is someone going to get the noose on the Roddickton situation - someone is going to get the noose. I detect that the Minister of Health is a little bit nervous and fidgety about this Roddickton situation. I have watched him squirm now, twice I have asked the question of the Minister of Fisheries and he almost dies each time I ask the Minister of Fisheries, because -

MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) downcast.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, because he is not quite sure how the Minister of Fisheries is going to answer the question you see, but the people up there have some serious questions to ask about that situation. They are starting to rise up in Roddickton -

AN HON. MEMBER: They could not get at their member I suppose.

MR. MATTHEWS: They cannot find him that is why they are talking to me and I have had a lot of calls from up there I must say. It is amazing what one question to the Minister of Fisheries has done on the northern Peninsula, asking for an update on the crab industry, and the phone has not stopped ringing since. Every day, every day, but they are ready to rise up, up there now, because they want to process crab in Roddickton -

AN HON. MEMBER: It is a veritable revolt.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, about to happen. I do not know if that has anything to do with the President of Treasury Board going up soon, as I heard him talking to the Minister of Health about this morning. Now if you are going to send someone up to put down or stop a revolt from that side, seriously, who would you send up, look at them all? Who would be the prime candidate, if not the President of Treasury Board?

Does he not look like a person who could put down riots ?

AN HON. MEMBER: You would not send the Minister of Finance?

MR. MATTHEWS: The Minister of Finance? Once he walks out into the square up at Roddickton, I guarantee you, there will never be another word on it because he will settle it, but having said that, it is a serious situation -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: You, oh yes, I know you are up there every weekend, yes, that is not what they tell me. That is not what they tell me. You must go indoors and stay in there then, I say to the minister. But having said that, you know, they have a problem that they would like to have dealt with really, that is the situation and when you look at the crab, the supply is not a problem, there is a bit of a problem with price this year, but there is a supply of crabs so there is an opportunity for jobs in Roddickton. 150 jobs they tell me, so why should we let that go by if there is something that can be done to create those jobs?

That is the kind of situation we have in the fishery today. With the species that we have that we can harvest and process and sell, we have to seize on every opportunity. We must do that. Because how are we going to take up any of the slack that will be left as a result of the crisis with our cod stocks? That is what we have to come to grips with.

The Member for Eagle River talked about other species earlier, from his seat. Wondered what we would do with this, with that, and with something else. But we really haven't paid enough attention to other species.

AN HON. MEMBER: You've got no policy.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Eagle River says: you have no policy. I would like to remind him that he now sits as a member of the government. And he says to me: you have no policy.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) previous government for fifteen years too.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, well, I say to him, you know, you can go on watching them till the year 2020, if you are going to be preoccupied with that. That is not going to do anything for the people on the Labrador coast, or in Roddickton or Grand Bank, or people who are going to be laid off at the Wooddale Nursery by the minister. Go on looking back for another thirty, forty years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me tell the Member for Eagle River, that there are less and less people who have confidence in him down in his area of the coast too. I tell him. There are a number of reasons for that. Because they are now starting to see the member in the same light as we see him here. They see him as nothing more than a mouthpiece who every now and then mouths off, mostly about the fishery. But every time he mouths off usually someone comes back with facts and just puts him down. Because he does not check out his facts before he mouths off about most things he mouths off about the fishery. I say to him. So he has to learn.

Yes, it is one thing to be vocal and to be heard about our most important industry, the fishery. But when you mouth off, do a little research. Know what you are talking about. Don't just say it to get headlines.

MR. DUMARESQUE: My research is solid.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, it is. It is like some other research coming from members opposite and elsewhere that is solid, and I do not have to bring up any other names.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Saltfish Corporation (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. I do not have to remind the member. He has been embarrassed now -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: He has been embarrassed on three or four occasions in the last four or five months. In spades he has been embarrassed, on statements he has made that have been refuted, with no foundation whatsoever. Whatsoever, I say to the member.

So he is not sincere about the fishery for his people. He is not sincere about that. His people are starting to see through him now. They are starting to realise that: Danny does not really care as much about us as he would pretend that he does. That is what is happening.

AN HON. MEMBER: Danny is a political animal, that is what Danny is.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. Wants to be in Ottawa, rather than here. Rather be up in Ottawa. Can't wait for the Prime Minister to find an appointment for Mr. Rompkey. Can't wait. He sits up there in the House of Commons, up in the gallery, and he looks down at that seat and he - I can't say what happens to him, but he rubs his hands as he looks at that seat, and he pretends he is looking at Mr. Chretien when it is Rompkey's seat he is looking at. I wish you could see him.

One day we were up to visit the Prime Minister. He didn't know we were there, you see. When I went in I said to the Leader of the Opposition: Look across the way. There he was over there. You should have seen him. He was gawking down.

AN HON. MEMBER: When I was up there he was the same way.

MR. MATTHEWS: And then eventually he realized that we were watching him. Well you should have seen the fellow blush.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, that was the same time as the Member for Eagle River, when Mrs. Mulroney had his child in her arms when they opened up the hospital ward. The member came into the lobby and sang out to me. You see, I just came to the door and he was getting out of his car and he said: Bill! Wait! I said: what is going on this morning? He opened the brief case and out he pulls this picture. He said: Now don't tell anyone else I showed you this. I said: I wouldn't tell a soul Danny. I wouldn't tell a soul. He said: Mulroney is a nice fellow. It is just the problems that come with being Prime Minister. That is what he said. I said: very good.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: He has told everybody that.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am going to move adjournment.

MS. VERGE: That was a good speech. I enjoyed that.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 2:00 p.m.