The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

On behalf of hon. members I would like to welcome to the public galleries a delegation from the community of Francois compromising people from the Local Service District and Transportation Committee. They would be Mr. George Durnford, Darryl Marsden, Aubrey Greene, Colin Greene, and Kevin Strickland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have some questions for the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, some serious questions about a serious matter that has surfaced over the last number of days. I think it would be an understatement to say that previous Budgets introduced by this government, and certainly the 1995 Budget, recently introduced, show little support for rural Newfoundland by this government.

My question for the minister concerns the enormous cutbacks for fire protection services. First of all I would like to ask him if he would confirm that the amount of money which will be eliminated, or cut, from his 1995 Budget for essential fire fighting equipment, using their own words in the Budget document, for the various municipalities around the Province is $827,500?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: The figure that you quoted would be the figure based on last year's actual spending in comparison. I think that is what you are getting at. Let us talk about a $1 million budget that we had last year for fire fighting equipment and this year it is $250,000. He is absolutely correct.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Can I ask the minister also if he can confirm a report that the total amount of money on file in requests from municipalities for essential fire fighting equipment of various sorts is more than $5.3 million, and would he also table a breakdown of the information under that heading, and what equipment is needed and where? In other words a listing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the total amount of requests for this year exceeded $5 million but within that $5 million, and I am not sure, but I thought yesterday, or on Friday I was told that $3.2 million was the reacquisition of new trucks for fire departments in the Province that had equipment and were applying for extra equipment, or to replace the twenty year old trucks they had. Communities around the Province that do not have any equipment at all, it is less than $2 million, as far as I know.

With regards to tabling the request, I don't think there would be a problem with that and I would certainly do it as soon as I possibly can.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary question.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for his answer and look forward to receiving that information. I am not sure his numbers are accurate, they don't jive with the information provided in the letter written by the President of the Fire Fighters Association.

Now, Mr. Speaker, if reports are accurate, and I refer to the story in The Evening Telegram on the weekend which the minister probably has seen, the minister tried to give the impression after the Budget Speech was made, in interviews that he gave subsequently, that these cuts are not all that serious and that they won't adversely affect municipalities. Now surely he has been aware or is aware that since that time there have been serious concerns raised publicly about his comments.

I would like to ask the minister a specific question: Since he is quoted at least as saying publicly that only two fire trucks will be financed, therefore the rest of the municipalities won't get the funding for their requests, can he tell us who these two lucky communities are that will receive the trucks? What method did he use to determine the winners' eligibility and what method was used to determine the ineligibility of all the others who will be the losers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I think I can reply to three questions. I believe there may have been four or five there but I will try my best to reply to all of them.

Number one, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland is the only Province in Canada that has a fire fighting equipment program. Number two, it was a budgetary decision that we had to make, that the government had to make as it related to my department. Now maybe the easiest way to do this - and I refer to some of my colleagues who sit on the other side of the House who were mayors - maybe the easiest way to do this would have been to reduce the MOG to all municipalities and then that would have given me the extra million dollars to spend in fire fighting equipment, but I didn't think at the time that that would be the correct method to use. You have to remember something else too, Mr. Speaker, that fire fighting equipment is the responsibility of the municipality and it is the town council or the city council that must take the lead and the responsibility in regards to providing its volunteer fire department with adequate fire fighting equipment.

The last or, one of the last questions my hon. friend asked me was: Who will get the fire trucks and if there were two fire trucks. Well, Mr. Speaker, the estimates haven't been approved yet in the House, we are not finished with the Budget procedures; I would think, if it is anything like other years it will be probably October or November before I will be in a position to say who is going to get the money out of the $250,000. It happens to be a procedure that you go through every year and assessments have to be done with fire trucks and fire fighting equipment and tenders have to go out. In fact, I would think that the majority of the fire fighting equipment that was announced last year is not even in the Province yet in some cases. It is not in the Province, it has been tendered and has not been brought in. So it will probably be late this summer before we can make the announcement.

Now the other misconception that the hon. member has, Mr. Speaker, is that we are going to spend the $250,000 on two fire trucks. I did not say that either, I don't know where that came from. Maybe the $250,000 will be divided up into twenty-five or thirty communities and we will be giving out fire fighting packages. I don't know at this particular time. I would suggest that when the House opens next fall, maybe that would be the right time to ask me that particular question.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, there is no harm to say that the minister is living in his own world. Half the stuff he commented on there I didn't ask him, had nothing to do with it and I certainly didn't ask the last question. So it must be his prepared text that he is reading from, his prepared speech.

Now, Mr. Speaker, having heard all of that gobbledegook by the minister, can he therefore tell us why or if in fact it is accurate that after meeting with the fire fighters association, the president of the fire chiefs and fire fighters association, that he promised to review his departments program cuts with the governments Social Policy Committee. If the explanation, as he just gave, is it and he has no concerns about it, why did he promise to review it if in fact that is accurate, is that an accurate statement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I take exception to the fact that someone would stand in this House and say that I have no concerns about volunteer fire departments in this Province. I had to reply to a question last week based on the same accusation. There is nobody in this Province who realizes the importance of volunteer fire departments around this Province any more than I do and I take exception to that. I said to the members of the association, the Volunteer Fire Fighters Association, sometime ago when they asked me if I could set up a meeting with the Social Policy Committee of Cabinet, I said to them yes I could do it. I had a meeting with them on Thursday morning and at that meeting I suggested that maybe now would be a good time for him to meet with the Social Policy Committee because they had some questions as it related to the reductions in finances for volunteer fire departments, and this might be a good time.

I certainly didn't make any commitment to the volunteer fire departments in this Province that I would review personally the decision that Cabinet made. I don't have the authority to do that, and I didn't do it, but I did provide the opportunity for the Fire Fighters Association to come in and sit down with the Social Policy Committee, and at that particular point in time, then they can make their comments known to a number of members of Cabinet, and that is all I have done.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will leave it to the minister and Jennifer Smith, who wrote the article in The Evening Telegram, who said, in fact, that you did promise to review the program cuts with the president. That is between you and her, unless she has you on tape, then perhaps your words will be taken as gospel.

By the way, I don't know what allegations he is referring to. I didn't make any allegations. I asked him some questions. Maybe there are others out there who made allegations about his lack of concern; in fact, it is pretty evident in the letter that was written to him.

I want to ask a supplementary of the Premier about this same matter. I would like to ask the Premier: Has he been briefed?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Okay, do you want to get briefed now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS: Has he been briefed on this serious matter? And, more importantly, is he familiar with the letter that the President of the Fire Chiefs and Fire Fighters Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, representing 7,000 fire-fighters, most of them volunteers, who said, in his letter, that cuts of this magnitude could jeopardize the lives of fire-fighters and the municipalities that they are trying to protect. Is the Premier aware of this?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the volunteer fire-fighters of this Province are one terrific group. Maybe people don't realize that not only do they give of their time as volunteer fire-fighters, but my experience with most of them is that they are also the community leaders who provide leadership in other activities within the community, so nobody wants to do anything to put volunteer fire-fighters in jeopardy or danger. I suspect, however, that the comment is a rather strong statement made for the purpose of making the point as effectively as he possibly could that he doesn't like the reduction in capital expenditures for fire-fighting equipment, and I understand that, but I don't share his view that it has put anybody in jeopardy or in danger.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier didn't answer my question. Is he familiar with this letter? Has he seen this letter? I think he should read the letter. If he likes, I will send over a copy to him. He should definitely read it, because I think it is a little stronger than that. It even goes on to say, and I quote for the Premier: `We fully understand your government's responsibility to be fiscally competent. They understand that. But to balance the Province's sheet by compromising the basic safety of our fire-fighters and the public is by no means acceptable. There is no price on the value of human life.'

Now, I think it is a bit stronger than that I and I strongly urge the Premier to read that letter and have a discussion with his minister about it, maybe even talk to the President of the Fire Fighters Association. I'm only quoting from his correspondence, a copy of which I will send over to the Premier. Let me ask him specifically, because I would like to get it on the record if he is absolutely certain: Is he comfortable, understanding all of this now, with this letter, the public comments that have been made, the fact that his government have cut, in fact, 75 per cent of the budget under this particular area - 75 per cent, in excess of $800,000 - is he absolutely comfortable that no municipality is going to be left with substandard equipment? More importantly, is he absolutely satisfied that the basic safety of our fire-fighters and the public is not put in jeopardy as a result of his government's cuts?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have total confidence in the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I am confident he knows what he is doing and he will manage it quite correctly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, nobody can guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong, that nobody will ever be hurt fighting a fire, that fire-fighting equipment may not be the cause. I can only say that over the years the government - not just this government, but the former government, too - contributed substantially and supplied a lot of fire-fighting equipment throughout the Province. The time has come now for municipalities to take a greater share of their own responsibility for service in the area. The government has provided for an amount that would enable it to take care of emergency or difficult situations, but the government can't continue on providing the capital for all fire-fighting equipment in the Province. The municipalities have to take their own share of the responsibility. No, Mr. Speaker, I can't guarantee anything, but I am satisfied that nothing this government has done has put anybody in jeopardy, nor will it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Premier concerning the ongoing negotiating fiasco between Canada and the European Union as regards overfishing on the Nose and Tail of the Banks. There have been recent media reports that Canada has agreed to take Spain and Portugal off the list of countries whose boats can be arrested if suspected of illegal fishing. I'm wondering if the Premier has been briefed recently on the ongoing negotiations. Can he confirm for the House if indeed this is a fact, that Spain and Portugal will be taken off that list when Spain continues to blatantly overfish, even today as negotiations are supposedly taking place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, yes, I've been fully briefed on what is proposed for the agreement. Yes, I've expressed approval, with some considerable degree of reluctance, but in recognition -

AN HON. MEMBER: Approval?

PREMIER WELLS: Yes, but in recognition that Canada has not the ability to simply dictate the way fishery will be run beyond the 200 miles. We don't have the ability to do that. The Canadian Government has tried to bargain some kind of a reasonable arrangement. Those are not the circumstances it would put in place if it had the sole say in the matter. It has to bargain with the European Community on the issue.

As to what is contained in it, Mr. Speaker, I don't have the right to say in detail what is in it. I will leave that to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, or at least I would seek - I don't mind disclosing it - I would seek his approval before I would do that. I am not in any position to confirm or deny that the provision that the hon. member asked for is in it or not. I just point out to members that it is not simply a matter of Canada being able to direct the way things are going to be, it is a matter of negotiation.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to be honest with the Premier and tell him I am absolutely flabbergasted that he would say, as Premier of this Province, that he supports that - I mean, really!

PREMIER WELLS: I didn't say I support it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Reluctantly support it, he said, unless I misunderstood the Premier. I thought he said he reluctantly supported -

MR. TOBIN: Reluctantly gave (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, gave it - or support it.

PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) clear it up.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: What I said was, with some degree of reluctance I expressed approval for the overall agreement. I just got through saying whether that is in it or not, he will have to go to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and find out. I can't confirm or deny it. That is what I said. But in terms of the overall agreement I wanted to indicate to the member that yes, I've been fully briefed. The minister has kept me posted on a day-by-day, and sometimes hour-by-hour, basis of the developments. There has been a representative from the provincial Department of Fisheries, so we are very much aware of what - the minister has been involved in it on a regular basis.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

A further supplementary to the Premier. There are a couple of items that have, I guess, been received with scepticism by our people. One is the matter I just raised, in that they cannot believe that Canada would even entertain taking Spain and Portugal off the list, for obvious reasons. The other one is the report that Canada has agreed to allow the European Union to put their own observers on their own vessels. What is the point of the Spanish observing the Spanish overfish? That is the question: What is the point?

I want to ask the Premier again: Has he raised any objection to this particular matter with the Federal Government? Is it the position of this Province that they support such action of the European Union putting their own observers on their own vessels so that they can then watch them overfish?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I can say again that the hon. member and anybody else who wants to should go to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans directly. Now, I don't mind asking him if has any objection to my making it public, because I certainly don't have any objection, and I will explain my views with respect to it. I won't express any opinion on any individual aspect of it raised by the member until I know it is made public, or the minister has no objection to my making it public.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I guess I could say it is even worse than I thought, by the sound of it all. This morning there were some media in the Province carrying the Minister of Fisheries as saying that it really doesn't matter what agreement Canada reaches with the EU, that Canada won't be able to control the Spanish overfishing anyway. I'm sort of flabbergasted by that, because what has the last month or so been about with the arrest of the Estai, the cutting of the net, and now those supposed negotiations ongoing? Let me ask the Premier really, does he himself believe, regardless of the end result of those negotiations, that it will not have any positive impact on our fish stocks by getting Spain particularly to stop overfishing? Does he agree with that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I heard the interview attributed to the minister this morning and he never said anything even remotely like what the hon. member just said. What he did say was that as far as Canada is concerned, it has worked out an agreement with the European Union. It is up to the European Union to bring Spain into line. Now, whether or not they will be able to remains to be seen. If they cannot, then one thing is clear, Canada must continue the action that it took in the past. If they cannot bring Spain into line, Canada must continue that action.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Now, the sensible, responsible way for Canada to try to achieve a resolution of the problem is to negotiate a solution with the European Union. It has done that and as far as Canada is concerned it has worked out an arrangement that, with reluctance, Canada could live with. It is not what Canada would prefer but it is one that we could live with for the sake of protecting not only the turbot stocks but the other stocks. Now, it is up to the European Union to bring Spain into line. If they do not, Canada will have no alternative but to continue the course of action it started three weeks ago.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

On Saturday evening, a tragedy was narrowly avoided in a traffic accident in St. Phillips. A vehicle went over a forty-foot embankment and overturned in a river. In today's Evening Telegram, credit is given to two young men, Leonard Tucker and David Hann, for their heroic action in effecting the rescue of a mother and her two small children who were trapped inside the car. However, Mr. Speaker, this morning in a CBC radio interview with a Hattie Wheeler, it was indicated that a frantic call to 911 went unanswered for more than five minutes. Is the minister aware of the situation? Has he asked for an investigation into these circumstances?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the situation and staff in my department, the deputy minister, in fact, was talking to the Fire Commissioner's office and the Fire Chief this morning. There seems to be some mix-up here with regard to the actual telephone call that a particular lady made. There were apparently two other calls made that were recorded and acted upon immediately. It seems right now that there is some problem in actually trying to identify whether the lady actually dialled the 911 number or not. I have asked my staff, I've asked the Fire Commissioner's office and the Fire Chief to look into that particular question to find out exactly what happened on that particular call. I am also led to believe, Mr. Speaker, that there were two other calls that came in on and around the same time as the lady said she made her call, and both of those calls related to the same incident. As far as I know and from what I am being told from my department, from my staff, is that 911 call was never received. They don't really have an answer for why the 911 wasn't received, unless there was some problem with the telephone or she dialled the wrong number or something. But they are investigating and I hope to have a proper answer maybe at a later time for the member.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister. Of course, he recognizes it is a great worry to all residents if 911 calls go unanswered for five minutes. I am wondering if he would assure the House that the results of his investigation and that of his department will be released to the House, and therefore, to the public at the earliest possible time?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and may I say also that the E 911 service that the government just introduced and will be working on in the next three or four months will hopefully enhance that whole system. Now, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the system now but very few complaints come in or have come forward in the last number of years, on not being able to reach 911. It is the first one that I've heard of since I've been made minister and the first one I've heard of. I don't remember hearing of one. I can certainly assure the member that as soon as the report is available to me, I will certainly make it available to the House and, in saying that, I add, that is why this government is taking the approach that we have. I would like to have 911 in Carbonear, I say to the hon. speaker. I am sure people living on the Northwest Coast and the South Coast would like to have 911. It is a much better system, one that works. It is a much better system and with the enhanced system that we are bringing in, hopefully, things like that won't happen again. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

The deadline for private interests to submit proposals for the operation of the twenty-nine provincial parks that government closed was due on Friday past. Would the minister be able to tell the House today: were proposals submitted on all twenty-nine parks and when will the names of the successful applicants be made public?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There were, I think in total we met, with respect to the issue this morning, some 140 different proposals with respect to twenty-eight facilities however, of the twenty-eight that were on the list or twenty-nine, I think there were three, all of which were basically described as scenic sites that occupied less than an acre. Where there was no expression of interest in terms of anyone from the public, a private sector operator from the general public wanting to operate them as a provincial park or a lookout of any sort, so it looks like those three which we can probably identify in a day or so - because we are still waiting two or three days to see if there are any further expressions, Mr. Speaker, that were postdated on April 7, which was the deadline but might have been in the mail over the weekend - but as of today, there looks like there might be three of them that would not operate at all but they are three in the category of being very small, land bases of particular scenic sites that we will not operate in any way and it looks like there is no member of the general public who wants to operate them either, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. Mary's -The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I received the information that proposals to privatize the Pipers Hole Provincial Park will include a plan to construct a roadway into the Bay du Nord Reserve and some other development within that reserve. In order to allow this to happen, government will have to change the Wilderness and Ecological Reserve Act and I would like to ask the minister: are there any changes being proposed within his department to the WERE Act that would allow roadways or other types of development into the wilderness reserves such as the Bay du Nord?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I am not aware of the proposal that the hon. member refers to in his question. There have been expressions of interest with respect to the park at Pipers Hole near Swift Current, the details of which I am not aware of at this time, and I have not been approached by anybody either outside of government or from officials inside the department who are suggestion that we in any way, shape or form change the status or boundaries of either of our wilderness reserves including the Bay du Nord Reserve.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Environment.

The Auditor General's Report states basically, that your department is in a mess with respect to management practices. There is no strategic plan, the department's report supplies insufficient information to the Legislature to hold the department accountable et cetera.

Does the minister agree with the Auditor General's report and what does he plan to do about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, you know, the Department of Environment is moving ahead very much so and it appreciates what the Auditor General has written and has commented back, but I would like to inform the House that we are well underway to doing a strategic plan for the department. As a matter of fact, we have already had a planning session with our directors and with all our management staff and we are very much so, in the next number of months going to address the concerns that were put forward by the Auditor General. We have a strategic plan which outlines a list of priorities that we are working on and a full agenda for the Province, and I think, Mr. Speaker, that in the next few months as they unfold, that, that question will be duly answered.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern, a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Minister, the Auditor General's report also states with respect to environmental management and control activities, that policies and procedures are not adequate to ensure the department and all its charges comply with relevant legislation and standards. In particular, much of the legislation is outdated and vague, that monitoring and investigation activities conducted by the department are very limited, including other problems.

Does the minister agree with the Auditor General's conclusions and what will be done to correct these problems?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the member for his question. We are now, Mr. Speaker, this year, undertaking a reform of our environmental legislation. We are taking the five or six acts we have and putting them together under one piece of legislation. We are going to modernize our legislation for the future, this process will be done as a public process throughout the coming months and we think that that will deal with a lot of the issues that the Auditor General has brought up, but we are also doing a regulatory reform and as the member is aware, we have government service centres being set up and some of our Department of Environment officials will be included in that and that should help with that process also. A whole range of initiatives are underway to deal with what the Auditor General has identified, and I think as that process proceeds we will see, especially with the reform in the legislation, because a number of her concerns that were identified talk about having legislation that deals with the issues, and we are very sure that over the next very short period of time we will have the legislation that will deal with these concerns.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has expired.

On behalf of hon. members, I would like to welcome to the Speaker's Gallery, Mr. Svend Robinson, the Member of Parliament for Burnaby - Kingsway.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to present the report of the Resource Estimates Committee. The Committee has considered the matters to it referred and has directed me to report having approved, without amendment, the Estimates of the Departments of Tourism, Culture and Recreation; Fisheries, Food and Agriculture; Industry, Trade and Technology; and Natural Resources.

On motion, report received.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to table the report, Exceptions to the Public Tendering Act, November, December, January and February. Mr. Speaker, I might add, in all the years they were in government, they never, ever, tabled those reports.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition signed by fifty-five residents of my constituency, people from the Jackson's Cove and general area. The prayer of the petition is: We, the undersigned, petition the hon. House of Assembly to have government cause Memorial Hall in Jackson's Cove, which was built by public funds for public use, be handed over to a publicly elected community board of directors.

Mr. Speaker, when this issue first broke some weeks ago now, I guess, I received a number of petition sheets from the citizens in the local area, and I presented them in small batches over the last while, while the House has been open, in this early spring Session. Now, with the Easter break about to occur, I thought I would table the remaining sheets, some fifty-five names, to show in total that we have many people in the general area who have been concerned by what has gone on there.

When the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs replied to this very early on, he scoffed at the low numbers of names that I presented in an early petition, indicating that the concern that I was bringing forward didn't have widespread public support. Before we close for Easter, I thought I should finish off tabling all the names that I had, just to show that I have tabled the names of roughly 80 per cent to 90 per cent of the voting public in the Jackson's Cove area.

Since last bringing this matter before the House, there has been a publicly elected board of directors basically running the hall for the last number of weeks. They have conducted community activities in the hall. They have conducted fund-raising activities to raise a legal defence fund for their particular committee.

The dictatorial, unelected committee, chaired by very prominent local Liberals, still exists. It is still demanding to take back control of the hall, but so far the citizenry has not given in to their requests. They have, through pressure on the local police department, through pressure on this provincial government, tried to, by force of will, by force of personality, take over the hall again, but to no avail. The bulk of the citizenry in Jackson's Cove has stood firm, and the hall is still in the hands of the general public and their democratically elected committee.

The latest development is, the lawyer for the dictatorial committee has written the lawyer for the publicly elected committee, asking for a meeting in Grand Falls. There may be some break, some crack in the armour, of the committee that so far has been elected by no one and answering to no one; I guess time will tell.

I just wanted to bring to the attention of the House just where this matter sits, and to assure hon. members that should this matter continue to drag on after we resume our sitting after the Easter break, I no doubt will have other petition sheets from citizens of the area to keep pressure on the government to recognize the birth and growth of democracy in the Jackson's Cove area. It has not been good enough for the government to sit on its hands and ignore this matter, and certainly if something good doesn't come of this democratic exercise I will continue to press it both in the House and in the media so that democracy will prevail in due course. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, we are going to deal with the first of the Concurrence debates today. That is limited by the rules to three hours. In theory we could go to 5:42 p.m. I don't anticipate we will, but in the event that we will perhaps I should first of all clear the way for us to do so by moving that the House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House do not adjourn at 5:00 p.m. All those in favour, `aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Contrary-minded, `nay.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay!

MR. SPEAKER: Motion carried.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: The Speaker has the most amazing powers of perception, I say to my friend for Grand Falls.

Your Honour, would you be good enough please to call Order No. 3(a). My friend for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir will speak first, of course.

MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 3(a), Concurrence Motion for Government Services Committee.

The hon. the Member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir.

MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a few remarks to say on the Concurrence debates. As we start off I would like to thank the members of the Committee: the vice-chairman, the Member for Bonavista South, the Member for St. John's East Extern, the Member for Harbour Grace, the Member for LaPoile, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

In the Government Services we considered the Estimates of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and with that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing; the Departments of Works, Services and Transportation, Employment and Labour Relations, Finance and the Public Service Commission.

I will make a few general remarks about that because I know it will be carried on. I took a few notes from my chairman's position during the Committee debates and outlined exactly what was happening, what questions were asked, and I'm sure they will be debated here at some length this afternoon as we go through.

The first department we did was the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. During these one of the topics that was discussed was the local service districts, particularly that in these areas the snow clearing was now being done by the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, had previously been done without cost, was now going to have to be paid for by those local service districts. There was some concern that the local service districts wouldn't be able to pay for this snow clearing and would be - I'm sure that it will be discussed here at some length today. Because there is a concern in rural Newfoundland about what is happening in some of the local service districts.

Under the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing branch of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs there was some concern about the RAP by virtue of the fact that it had been reduced. It seems that the money that was going into it had been reduced, and they recognized that it was a federal-provincial agreement. There were questions asked concerning financing of condominiums at the Marble Mountain area when there was a crying need for social housing in this Province. The question was asked: Will the profits from the sale of those condominium units be turned back to the Province so that they will be able to be used in social housing?

Under Works, Services and Transportation there were certain questions raised which I'm sure will be discussed further here today. The doing away with the motor vehicle inspections for licencing, that was raised, and I'm sure my friends on the other side and maybe some members on this side will have some concerns about it. Photo i.d.s was raised as another concern, and the distance that some people have to travel to have these photos taken. The minister answered that and said it was impossible to do anything, only the areas that he had. I'm sure there will be more on that. Again, snow clearing, which is always one in the department, that was raised and discussed at some length.

The last one was the ferry service on the South Coast. I'm sure that there will be much discussion of the ferry service on the South Coast before it is all over. As a matter of fact, we have a delegation in the gallery today from François who are concerned about some of the things that are happening now in the tendering process that has taken place on that, and they have had meetings with the minister, and there are concerns about the fact that it was taken over and the Province relieved the federal government of their responsibility to provide this, a decision that was made in the Terms of Union, but I am sure that this will be discussed another day here in the House with some more detail than we are going into right now.

Under the Department of Employment and Labour Relations, there were certain things discussed which I am sure will come in for more discussion here this afternoon, for instance the Employment Generation Program that the minister so graciously brought in in January of this year, or February, which helped provide many weeks of employment for Newfoundlanders. Some of the other things that were discussed under this one was the hiring at Hibernia, and the minimum wage, and I am sure that all of these will be open for more discussion as we get into the debate here this afternoon.

Under the Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission there were certain questions, and very few questions under the Public Service Commission, but as is general when you discuss the Department of Finance, the conversation was open and pretty near any topic that anyone wanted to was discussed.

I could go on into details of this, but these are roughly the notes that I, as the Chairman, took as we were going through, and I thought it should be noted that this is what was the main thrust of the estimates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. GILBERT: What departments? I said them once, but I will say them again for the benefit of my friends over there on the other side: Municipal and Provincial Affairs; Works, Services and Transportation; Employment and Labour Relations; and the Department of Finance; also, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing under Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and the Public Service Commission under Finance.

As I say, I thank the members who served on the committee with me. We got through the estimates in the three hours allotted. None of them went into overtime. There was a general agreement there. Everybody seemed to be pretty well agreed that they went well. I don't know if they got the answers to the questions, but in the discussion this afternoon I am sure there will be some repeat of the questions that were asked in the committee stage.

With that, so as not to carry on, I am sure that members have other questions. I outlined what happened. I again thank the committee, and I move the adoption of this report without further talk so we can get out of here now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am happy to rise today on the Concurrence debate. As the Chairman of that committee said, it was a very good committee. The committee functioned very well, and there was good participation by all committee members.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Vice-Chairman.

MR. FITZGERALD: A good Vice-Chairman, yes there was. There was a really good Vice-Chair. There were a couple of other committee members, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes, the Member for St. John's East Extern, Harbour Grace, and LaPoile, and everybody showed up on time and it was a great exchange of ideas.

There is one thing, as a new member, sometimes we think this is a waste of time, or something else is a waste of time, but it is a good time for people like myself, who are new members, to come and ask questions, and to get the minister's attention, and to get the attention of the minister's staff as well, and it goes on the record. Lots of times during Question Period in the House we know we are all limited to half-an-hour, and there are a lot of questions we would like to get on, but because of certain critics in that area who would like to ask other things, or because of the time limit, or the time frame, we don't always get to ask the questions and bring forward the concerns of the people in our districts, and to get the minister's attention and the staff's attention, so it is certainly good in that sense.

I feel also that the ministers themselves, when they come and sit on a committee as committee members, come with a different approach. They come being very sincere and, as the questions are asked, they answer them to the best of their ability. It is not always a time to make political hay because the media doesn't pay a lot of attention to it. The media is very seldom present, but still it is a good time to get some information, and a good time to feel out the minister and his staff on what they think of certain ideas and certain suggestions. They don't limit you to only the Budget Estimates, or to the salary details. They are pretty flexible and you can general questions on a wide range of topics. You can also get into direct questions, specific questions from your own district. This always adds something to it and gives you a chance to get on the record and show the people of your district that this was a concern of yours, it was addressed, and here is what the government policy is on those issues.

Mr. Speaker, I was very happy to take part in the committee. The four sessions were held here in the House. I think the Chairman of the committee got a jump probably on most everybody else and we didn't find ourselves having to go to the Colonial Building down at the other end of town, or we did not have to come back too many nights. I think it was one night we had to come back here after supper, and the other events were held right here in the House of Assembly.

One of the topics that was up for discussion and came under the heading of Government Services was Works, Services and Transportation. It was a good time to bring to the minister's attention a very real concern in my district, and that is the condition of Route 235, a road that leaves Route 230 at the intersection of Southern Bay and goes all the way to Bonavista. It takes in the historic district of Bonavista South and goes all down around the coastline of Bonavista Bay. It shows the real beauty of the whole area there. Mr. Speaker, it was a good time to bring it to the attention of the minister and to get his comments on record. The people down in my district have been trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to get the minister to come down to a meeting and to travel over that section of the road. When the minister was sitting here the other day he was very accommodating. I am not going to get into that now anyway.

It is a very serious concern, that here we are today going out and closing down schools, trying to combine schools and saying it is not unrealistic to expect people to get on a bus and travel fifteen or twenty kilometres, or thirty kilometres, over a stretch of roadway. We are doing this in the one breath, Mr. Speaker, but on the other hand I am not sure that we are making the commitment to maintain our roads and our highways so those people can travel safely to school.

On this certain section of highway that I refer to, Route 235, it is almost like an obstacle course, trying to get away from the bumps and humps. The minister continues to talk about the winter, it is the bad weather we have been experiencing, they are frost bumps, and those bumps will disappear when the sun starts to shine, but the minister is wrong, Mr. Speaker. He doesn't know what he is talking about, because he can drive down over this stretch of road in July and August and he will find it is just as dangerous and just as bad at that time of year as it is now. It is a section of roadway, I guess, that you might say is worn out. I don't know if there is a life put on it. Maybe the minister can answer this, if there is a life put on a section of roadway how long a paving job should be expected to last before it has to be recapped, or before the road has to be reconstructed.

I think I did hear the minister say at one time that twenty years or twenty-two years is pretty well the life of a road and, Mr. Speaker, this certain section of roadway certainly falls into that category. The road is in excess of twenty years old. It is about twenty-five years old and at the time it was constructed, Mr. Speaker, I am not so sure that the contractors had to abide by the rules and regulations as they have to now. I think it was a situation where contractors probably got away with a lot more and made a lot more money in those days than they do now, because inspections weren't so critical and weren't brought to the forefront as the minister expects them to be now so that they will get the value for their dollar.

I suppose, when you look back on paving in those days as well, when we had all gravel roads, it was a situation where the members of the day went out and tried to get whatever dollars they could for their district, Mr. Speaker, which is what they should have done, but having received maybe many times fewer dollars than should have been brought forward to complete the work - and the work was stretched out and the job was stretched out in order to accommodate a wider area or to accommodate more kilometres for paving than should have been included in the tender and in the budget. But there were no arguments in those days because at least a little black top was going down, the dust was cured and everybody was happy. Now we are paying the price for it, Mr. Speaker.

When you go down over this stretch of roadway - in fact I go down over it at least twice a week, Mr. Speaker, even when the House is open. Even when the House is open, I say, I travel Route 235 at least twice a week, and I don't mean going down and coming back as two occasions, Mr. Speaker. I make a trip down there every Saturday and every Sunday morning and I can tell the minister that when those people call in complaining, when you hear them on the open line shows and when you see the children writing letters to him - which I know he has received - when you see the children calling to his office and the school teachers and the parents, Mr. Speaker, they are not calling because they want to occupy the minister's time or want to be a thorn in his side, they are calling because they are concerned. The parents are concerned because their children get on that bus in the morning and arrive at school sick. They arrive at school suffering from motion sickness. This is a very, very common complaint from the whole area.

Now, off that Route 235, there are two spur roads as well, one going out to Upper Amherst Cove and the other out to Tickle Cove. It has gotten to the point today that even the wholesale trucks that go up there to service the businesses in the area, Mr. Speaker, the convenience stores and the food stores, they would normally go there on two occasions a week. They had a schedule that twice a week they would make their visits to those stores. Naturally, it was done because they were making money and they were providing a service. Mr. Speaker, it has gotten to the point now where this road has deteriorated to such a condition that those trucks have refused to go there twice a week. They go there now once a week and the threat is always brought forward that if there is not something soon done with your road, then we may not come here at all. While you are driving down the road, Mr. Speaker, it is not uncommon to see car parts, auto parts, tail pipes or mufflers like you would see on the old gravel roads years ago. When you would go down in a mud hole and you would have to wait for somebody to hook on to you and tow you out of the mud hole then there was always a muffler left behind or a tail pipe. This is what you are seeing today on this stretch of roadway leading from Southern Bay down to Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, then we continually talk about one of the vehicles that is going to take us into the 20th Century. One of the vehicles to take us there, Mr. Speaker, is tourism. Now, I don't know how we can ever expect people to drive here from the United States or from other parts of Canada to come with their motor homes - or even our own people, Mr. Speaker, even our own Newfoundlanders to take their family cars and go down over such a roadway. I fear Mr. Speaker, if they go all the way they will make only one trip and they will never, ever go back there again.

Now, tourism is a very important industry on the Bonavista Peninsula when you look at what has been taken away from us and the things that we are not allowed to do anymore there as it relates to the fishery with the moratorium on. One of the things that we looked at and set our sights on and one of the things that everybody is promoting, Mr. Speaker, is tourism.

At one time, in the Town of Bonavista, tourism meant a strange license plate driving through the town, it didn't mean much more than that, because people were earning a living in a traditional way. They were either going out in their fishing boats and earning their living as fisherpersons or they were going to work in the plant; they didn't need tourism. If people visited their town, they were hospitable, they showed them the wonderful sights and took time to talk to them but, Mr. Speaker, as far as really going out and paying a lot of effort to the tourism industry was concerned, it wasn't done - it wasn't needed.

I remember, the Member for Trinity North, one time, when we were at a meeting in his district, made the comment, `I wonder why Bonavista is so far behind Trinity when it comes to tourism.' And the member was right, Trinity is far ahead of any other town on the Bonavista Peninsula, far ahead; but the reason they are ahead of every other town is because they recognized what they had to offer, and the people there needed the jobs, they needed the income, they needed tourism; there was nothing else there for them. Mr. Speaker, they were made aware of the beauty of the area, they preserved their culture and they expounded on it and built up all the things that were there, its attractions, promoted them and today they are doing very well. The people in Bonavista, didn't need tourism and that is why they find themselves now, so far behind.

Mr. Speaker, as more and more people go to Cape Bonavista, as more and more people go down and drive out and picture themselves at a site of land closer to Europe than any other place in North America, and look out and see the whales, see the icebergs - sitting in their cars, Mr. Speaker, they can see this. And as they see those things, the beauty of the area, and enjoy the clean air and the nice environment, the hospitality of the people there, more and more people are now beginning to see what tourism means and they are seeing it through the eyes of a tourist rather than we would from our own eyes.

We look at those things, the rocks, the sea, and we think how bad it is, it has nothing to offer, but it does, it has a lot to offer. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the reason why this road that I continually talk about here in the House - and I have written the minister, I have brought it up in Estimates, Route 235 - that is why it is so very important to the district of Bonavista South and to the parents and children of the area who must travel both ways on this Route 235 every day in order to get to school, to work and to access any government building, Mr. Speaker. Still, the minister refuses to go and meet with the people.

He has asked them to come to St. John's, he is saying: Come to St. John's, we will meet with you in here, but that's not what they want to do and I don't blame them. Let the minister go down and travel over the road. It is obvious that he doesn't know exactly what is causing the problem there, he is saying it will disappear in a couple of months time, he is saying that he will go down there before the winter is over, but if he is going to do all those things, then it is time for him to go out now and start making good on some of the promises he has made.

Those people, Mr. Speaker, the concerned parents in the area, got together about two months ago, met there in the school, 200 of them, got out on a moment's notice, came out and talked about this particular roadway and what they could do in order to have it improved, for government to realize the deplorable state it was in. They talked about such things as keeping the children home from school; the bus operators were there and talked about keeping their buses off the road; the students were there and talked about being sick, Mr. Speaker. Some other people were there and talked about blocking the road and letting nobody through but they were realistic, Mr. Speaker. They said: Hang on now, let's look at this, let's give the minister a chance, let's give the department a chance. Let's call the office, let's make him aware of it, and let's see if he will come forward, and come down and meet with us, sit with us first-hand and hear our concerns.

The minister was approached. He didn't want to go down and meet with the public. He felt a public meeting would turn into a shouting match and it wouldn't accomplish anything. He might have been right. The group of people who met at the school that night took all that into consideration. They said: What we will do is we will form a committee to meet with the minister in case he doesn't want to have a public meeting. They formed a committee and ever since that meeting two months ago, they've been trying to get the minister down to meet with them as a committee, and he has been continually putting them off, saying: Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

Anyway, the meeting hasn't happened. I think it is to the minister's detriment that he hasn't allowed it to happen, because I'm sure there are many ministers over there who would have gone there and would have met with the people, and addressed the concern, and would have been up front with them and told them when they could expect repairs to be done. If we are going to promote our own towns, if we are going to promote the areas where we find ourselves now without any economic stimulus, one thing we have do, and that is look after the infrastructure that we have in place. If we don't maintain our roadways and if we don't maintain the rest of the infrastructure out there, then I don't know how we are ever going to attract anybody to come to those areas to create industry or to create some economic stimulus in the area.

Another incident that was brought to the minister's attention was the amount of overtime paid out to government workers during the snow clearing time. What they do, is they advertize or post up the hours of overtime that people work. I went into one depot on the Bonavista Peninsula at the end of January, and found, up to that time, they had in excess of $60,000 paid out in overtime. I said to some of the workers there: `Boys, you are making lots of money, making lots of overtime.' They answered: `Yes, boy, you know, it has been a bad winter, the weather has been bad and we have been working a lot of hours, and we get time-and-a-half for everything over forty hours, and then they get called in and what have you.' I don't know the exact way that their collective agreement is structured but I think it is pretty well standard - time-and-a-half after forty hours, so many hours for call-in, et cetera.

Mr. Speaker, some of those snow plough operators, some of those labourers who are - I think there has to be two on what they call the flier that operates the side wing of that - some of those people are working in excess of twenty hours at a time. They go back and get four hours rest, and they're out again, sometimes for a further twenty hours. Now, I'm wondering, if we are paying those people time-and-a-half, and we have a lot of people out there today looking for a job, why the Department of Works, Services and Transportation doesn't possibly look at hiring extra people in the wintertime. They would certainly be providing a service, it would certainly be cheaper for them in that they would only have to pay straight time. Then, also, there is the safety part of it. I don't think anybody would want to go out and work twenty hours and have four hours rest and another twenty hours and four hours rest.

This happens day after day when you see the type of weather that we have been experiencing this year. I'm sure it happens on the Burin Peninsula as well. In fact, probably the two most capable people here in the House, the hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West and the hon. the Member for Grand Bank, got stranded down in their towns. They couldn't make it here one day. I think they were even late getting in to the House, and I know they make every effort to get here.

So, Mr. Speaker, another grave concern of some of the people who work for the Department of Highways - and I might add, before I go on, when I talk about hiring other people in the wintertime, and giving them a chance to work, a chance to be productive, a chance to get off unemployment insurance and contribute something to this society, I might add that those people, too, are concerned about the safety part of it, and there is a very, very real fear about contracting out.

I wouldn't want to bring about any unjustified fears, but it seems that a lot of people today working with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, have a real problem with the minister and the secretive way he operates the department, asking a lot of questions because they are hearing a lot of rumours about contracting out. The minister himself, here in debate when he was asked a question, a pointed question, about lay-offs in his department, skated around it - maybe, maybe not, but there are going to be changes. They are restructuring the old department, and as a result of that you are going to see a lot of people laid off.

Let's get back to talking about the snow clearing and the people I suggested might be hired on to operate the snowplows, and to do away with the time-and-a-half and the double time, and all of this. Look at all the people we have trained under this TAGS program and under the NCARP program to be heavy equipment operators, all done and sanctioned by the Federal Government, paid for by taxpayers' dollars, so now those people are out there unemployed, quite capable of doing those duties, but find themselves today unemployed, and our own government could be giving them the opportunity, to go out and go to work and be productive citizens right in their own towns, travelling back and forth. Those are some of the concerns that were brought forward to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

Another big issue raised in that particular session was the inspection of vehicles. And the minister, every time that it was brought forward here in the House and somebody asked a question, or somebody got up and made a comment on it, his first reaction was: Who are you representing? It's no trouble to know who you are supporting; you are supporting the garage owners out there.

Well, what is wrong with supporting the garage owners? What is wrong with supporting people who are creating employment, who are providing employment, and up until now were providing a real service to everybody with a driver's licence and everybody who operated a vehicle?

The minister continues to say: But we are all responsible people. You know when there is something wrong with your car. I know when there is something wrong with mine. Maybe we do, but a lot of us don't react to that until the problem becomes apparent, and sometimes when it becomes apparent it might be far too late, because you may end up by losing a life or by having an accident and somebody will be killed, or maimed for the rest of their lives.

If the minister wanted to do away - and this was another thing he continued to bring forward: How about the fellow who goes around with the inspection book in his pocket, writes out the inspection slip and charges you $15? If that was a problem out there, and I am not sure that it was - in fact, I don't think it was - if somebody was doing it, then we should deal with the person who was causing the problem. Don't bring in rules and regulations to affect everybody. If you go out and catch somebody drinking and driving, are you going to bring back prohibition? Are you going to do away with liquor? No, you deal with the person who was causing the problem, the person who was caught.

If that were a real concern, and if there were many people out there, then do away with the inspection fee. Still maintain the inspections, still maintain the safety, but if there are people abusing it, do away with the inspection fee and you wouldn't see the people that the minister referred to going around with the book in their pocket writing out slips and charging fifteen dollars. I am not so sure that was ever a problem, but if it was, then that would certainly have solved it. Now, the minister says we are still going to have an inspection, it is going to be done by the RCMP on the side of the road.

MR. EFFORD: You don't know what you're talking about.

MR. FITZGERALD: The RCMP is going to stop you. One of these days you are going to drive out, the RCMP will stop you and he is going to do the inspection. He is going to check the ball joints, he is going to inspect your muffler and he is going to crawl up under your car. Well, if we are paying RCMP officers to do inspections on our cars, then it is about time we saved some money and looked at doing it another way. It is about time that the Premier and other people in Cabinet with a bit of common sense, talked to the minister and brought him back to reality, Mr. Speaker, because this certainly doesn't add anything to the safety on our highways.

When you look at the cost of registering your car, and the price you are paying in taxes on gasoline, the cost of your insurance and the taxes you pay to buy a car - double taxes to buy a car; and you don't even get credit on a car that you trade in, with your GST. Looking at the taxes we are paying, we certainly deserve better roads to drive over than we are witnessing today. Now, the minister continues to go out, and the Cabinet, and say we brought in a balanced Budget. Mr. Speaker, there should be no pride from the government benches on the other side when you have to go out and look at the type of roads we have to drive over and the rest of the infrastructure out there in place today, Mr. Speaker, and where government is shunning their responsibilities, it should bring no happiness or joy to them.

Mr. Speaker, insurance cancellations is another example. The minister - and I have no other choice but to believe him on this one because he is much more aware of it than I am, the way the computer system operates and the way that the government department is structured; but I can never be convinced and I will never understand how I can go out today, go to an insurance company, buy insurance and write him out a check for three months or two months, give him a down payment, never make another payment, walk away and not have to worry about insurance again until I go to renew my license, until I renew my vehicle. I will never understand and I will never accept the minister's explanation or his staff's explanation that it can't be done, it can't be done, there is no way. Now, let me go and apply for insurance - if I am going to go to a member's office to buy insurance -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, just a minute to clue up?

MR. SPEAKER: Clue up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, just a minute to clue up even though I think I am allowed half-an-hour.

MR. SPEAKER: You had half-an-hour. Your time is up, Sir.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I thought the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation would be inclined to give my colleague leave for a few minutes.

I don't intend to spend a full half-hour but there are a couple of issues that I do want to raise as it relates to the Concurrence Debate and what we are dealing with today. One, Mr. Speaker, is the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. What has happened here is that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation tried to become the Minister of Fisheries. He went down on the White Hills, Mr. Speaker, with a blow horn, went all over the place shouting out, and brought a crowd back to his office in Confederation Building. That's what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation did, and he went to a Cabinet meeting -and all the crowd were at the meeting, the Dave Gullivers of the world and all the crowd who were going to save the fishery. They were all meeting in the board room with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is not listening.

MR. TOBIN: Oh, he is listening, don't worry about that.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation went up to Cabinet and said, Now boys, have a good meeting and if Cabinet is not long I will be back; so about half-an-hour after they were up at the Cabinet meeting, this knock came on the door in the board room, and it was the minister's executive assistant. The minister said, Get the boys out quick. He said, I will see if I can find somewhere else for them, so Earle McCurdy had to take them all and bring them down to the fishermen's office.

Now, what happened in Cabinet that day was that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation lost it all. The Premier took him on and told him he was not the Minister of Fisheries, that Bud Hulan, as bad as he is, is the Minister of Fisheries. So John had to drive them all out of his board room. His knuckles were rapped to the extent that he couldn't carry the budget of the Department of Transportation in Cabinet. He came out with $10 million, the lowest amount of money for Works, Services and Transportation since Confederation. It used to be Public Works and Services and Transportation, two separate departments, but when you put it all together, it is the lowest amount of money since Confederation, since 1949, and it all happened because the minister lost his clout when he tried to short-circuit the Minister of Fisheries - that's what happened. Any minister who could lose the battle to the extent that in 1995-'96, we would have less money than we had in 1955-'56, there is something wrong, I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He has no clout.

MR. EFFORD: The only clout I have (inaudible) I guarantee (inaudible) worry about the roads.

AN HON. MEMBER: What roads?

MR. TOBIN: Yes, what roads, Mr. Speaker? The minister can't do a lot with the measly amount of money he got this year. Make no mistake about it, he cannot do very much. Now, I do not know about other members but in my district I have already announced road work three times this year that has been approved for me by the minister. When tenders were to be called I announced it, when they were called I announced it, when they closed I announced it, and now, when they were awarded I announced them again, four times - a new ramp on Harris Drive from Marystown, which we have been trying to get for years; repairs to the Beau Bois road; repairs to the causeway up in Creston, the new causeway that we built a couple of years ago. I have announced it all four times, I say to the minister.

I would have liked to have gotten more and I am still hopeful that I will get a bit more. I would say there are members in this House who will not be able to do what I had the opportunity to do. It is not that the minister would not have liked to give everybody money, Mr. Speaker, it is just that Cabinet gave him the lowest amount of money since Confederation, so what can the poor old minister do? What can the poor old minister do?

MR. EFFORD: Imagine the time you wasted saying absolutely nothing!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Here is the real Minister of Fisheries coming in now.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the problem with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation just walked in the House. All he has to do is look over his shoulder. There is the problem - no, the other way - when he took you on in Cabinet and said, I am the Minister of Fisheries. What were you at in the White Hills, what were you at up in Ottawa meeting with Brian Tobin? The Premier came to the aid of the Minister of Fisheries and slashed the Budget of Transportation to $10 million or $12 million, that's the problem.

The Minister of Fisheries knows what I am talking about. He knows full well what I am talking about. I do not know why the Minister of Fisheries took it to the extent that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation had to order him out of his board room. My colleague, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes was one of the people in the board room. He was one of the people in the board room when the call came through, `get out'. One fellow had a job to get back and get his brief case.

MR. WOODFORD: The call was a 911.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, 911 could never have operated faster.

We know now who has the influence with the Premier, who has the Premier's ear, it's the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture. There is no way that firemen could leave a fire hall faster than they had to leave the boardroom of the minister. My colleague, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes was one of the people there. He couldn't get time to tie his shoelaces. Get out, get out, get out! the minister said. `The minister said he is going to be hung if you don't get out' - the row up there.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the minister will have ample opportunity after I sit down to get up and tell us about what took place. The Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture can get up and tell us about what took place. I don't necessarily agree with the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture doing what he did. I think the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture should have accepted the fact that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation had the interest to go to Ottawa and meet with Brian Tobin on an issue that was of critical importance to this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: You don't know what you're talking about.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do, because I heard him saying it, and if he said it he knows what he is talking about. Is it true or is it not that you drove the people from your boardroom, I ask the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation?

AN HON. MEMBER: Did he leave when he was asked to leave?

MR. TOBIN: Did he leave? He wasn't there.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, he wasn't there.

MR. TOBIN: No, he wasn't there. He (inaudible) from Cabinet.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation that there are roads in my district that need work done on them this year. The road to Monkstown, for example.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) either one of you over there!

MR. WOODFORD: The heat is on - you can't take it!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation couldn't take it when I - he ran away. I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation that the road to Monkstown, from Davis Cove to Monkstown needs improvement. It is all a dirt road, but from Monkstown to Davis Cove it is impassable right now. Trucks cannot get out there with supplies for the community - that's what is happening.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The suppliers' trucks - M. A. Powell - no, not them now, whoever it is, Mr. Speaker. Who are the suppliers? What trucks go up (inaudible)?

AN HON. MEMBER: T.R.A.

MR. TOBIN: T.R.A. and that group, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister of -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No.

AN HON. MEMBER: Red Harbour.

MR. TOBIN: Red Harbour. Red Island is in my district, believe it or not, (inaudible) livyers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: All I say to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, is there is not too much red left in my district anywhere.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Red Harbour, Mr. Speaker, is in my district, sure. My colleague, the Member for Bellevue has relatives who live in Red Harbour. As a matter of fact, his first cousin is one of the best poll captains I have.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) give the bologna to.

MR. TOBIN: Bologna? I don't know if it was Roberts or Smallwood who gave out the bologna, but it was one of them, Mr. Speaker - must have been Smallwood. No, what they gave was they gave out the chit for beer, right? for seven or eight dozen beer. The boys went in to get the beer and they said to the dealer: Instead of us taking the six dozen beer we will only take five dozen beer and a bologna - that's how they got the bologna, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's one thing `Loyola' (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: It happened in Ferryland. The beer and the bologna was picked up in Aquaforte.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: I know what you did with the beer. What did you do with the bologna?

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I wasn't in on it, I say to the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: They scooped it out with a spoon, you said.

MR. TOBIN: Well, if they scooped it out with a spoon, I met them up in the country. They had a big spoon, used to pull off the middle of the road, and all you could hear was: Vote for Ed; vote for Ed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: About 2:00 in the morning every fellow with a beer and a big scoop of bologna, and they were all going to elect Ed Roberts as the next Premier.

MR. ROBERTS: Those were the days (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: They were the days. And I was supportive -

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. TOBIN: I was supportive of my friend for winning it. I thought at the time he was the best person to lead the Liberal Party. I was never a supporter of the Liberal Party, but you had to put Newfoundland first, which the majority of the delegates at the convention did, and they elected him leader.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) declare my support for `Sullivan'?

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. ROBERTS: Or would you prefer `Verge'?

MR. TOBIN: Me?

MR. ROBERTS: No, who I should say I support.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I think it was the Premier who said to myself and my colleague, the Member for Grand Bank at our federal leadership convention: In the best interest of the Liberal Party, I would like to have Kim Campbell leader, and in the best interest of the country, I would like to see Charést leader. I think that is what he said. That is what I would say about the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle and the former Premier of Newfoundland. In the best interest of Newfoundland, I thought they should have elected the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle at the time.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: So he never became Premier.

MR. TOBIN: No, he never became Premier.

I will tell you another little story about the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, no. When I came in here first, if there was anyone in this House on the other side who was intimidating, the Member for the Strait could be extremely intimidating to new members. One day, I finally thought I had taken enough from him, and told him what I thought of him, and I never had a problem with him since, and I have never stopped telling him what I thought of him ever since.

Mr. Speaker, Employment and Labour Relations comes under this heading as well.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh boy, now we're going to hear it!

AN HON. MEMBER: Name the committee, `Tom'.

AN HON. MEMBER: The shadow committee.

MR. TOBIN: His brother-in-law was on the committee. I tell you, the same fellow who approved double billing for Workers' Compensation; that's who was on the committee - not the Member for St. John's South, he is not the person, in my judgement.

AN HON. MEMBER: Would you mind pointing at him? Would you point at the fellow you think is guilty.

MR. TOBIN: I will tell you one thing, when it is found out it is going to hurt his leadership chances. He is behind the Speaker now, and he will be further behind him when the people find out what is going on. The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is going to move ahead of him. I am hearing that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has the backing of the people with the money.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Big backers.

MR. TOBIN: He's got big backers. I am hearing that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has all of the consultants tied up, but I can tell you, the crowd that was out in Gander, he might not do very well from them, the crowd that faxed me in all the information.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who do you think they will support over there?

MR. TOBIN: Who?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That crowd.

MR. TOBIN: What crowd?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The crowd you got the fax from.

MR. TOBIN: Who would they support?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. TOBIN: No doubt about it, they are supporting no one over there, and if the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation doesn't soon start coming clean on the John Cabot set-up, if he doesn't soon start telling us how much it is costing, Mr. Speaker, not only will the Speaker and the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs be ahead of them, they will be far behind the Member for LaPoile if he decides to run. He will be far behind the Member for LaPoile, he is going to -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What about the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, where does he fit in it.

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation does not even fit in it, not in it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No?

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture would be better.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, I heard the Member for Fortune - Hermitage was due his support from him.

MR. TOBIN: From whom?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: From Works, Services and Transportation. Is that true?

MR. TOBIN: Oh, I will tell you right now whom the Member for Fortune - Hermitage is supporting.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He was telling John he was supporting him but then he (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, he did not. No, no, he did not.

The Member for Fortune - Hermitage, Mr. Speaker, in my judgement, will make up his mind whom he is going to support on the last ballot.

MR. CAREEN: When he hears the speeches.

MR. TOBIN: In the last ballot after he hears the speeches. He won't jump into it but if he does, the Member for Fortune - Hermitage will support, I would think, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, my judgement is he will support the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. Probably now, where he is working with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, he might have to support him but his choice was the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation and probably still is.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: He was the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation - but I can tell you who is going to decide on who is going to lead this party, your party, come the fall, Mr. Speaker, come the fall. Do you want me to make a prediction?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, sir.

MR. TOBIN: Okay, and it is that the Premier will resign probably in October. The Minister of Finance and Treasury Board will take over the party and there will be a Leadership next spring and the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board will not be a candidate; that's my prediction, and that there's a group, Mr. Speaker, the Speaker, the Minister of ITT, the Minister of Environment, the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and a few more like the Larry (inaudible) of the world, is going to be the crowd who decides the next leader of this party. That's who is going to decide the next leader of your party and the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations -

MR. WOODFORD: Lots of meetings on the West Coast (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. WOODFORD: Lots of meetings on the West Coast (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Bud was over there, perhaps he is running. Bud was over there for the big meeting he told me this morning, he is running I bet you.

MR. WOODFORD: Big, heavy meetings too, some big names.

MR. TOBIN: - and Danny is going. The Member for Eagle River, Mr. Speaker -

MR. CAREEN: I said: he might be called `Bud', but is he any wiser?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: I say the Minister of ITT was listening outside -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: - and heard what I was saying, Mr. Speaker, and slipped in.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Speaker is back too Glenn.

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Speaker just came in. You got them in, you got them all in.

MR. TOBIN: If that's the case, I wouldn't be one bit surprised that the meeting was in the Speaker's office, that they left the Speaker's office –

AN HON. MEMBER: Who, Chuck and the Speaker?

MR. TOBIN: Chuck and the Speaker.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Is Brian Tobin out there too?

MR. TOBIN: I don't know if Brian was there but I will tell you what I said. The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is up there clapping his chest basically on wanting to be the next leader, I say to the Minister of ITT and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is at it and I told him that you would be one of the people who would decide on whom the next leader of the Liberal Party is, you and Tobin and Kevin Aylward and the Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, not the party whip, no no; and I will tell you what I said to the minister: You, the Speaker, the Minister of Environment who, by the way, Mr. Speaker, to whom I want to say this, is that in the last shuffle the Premier had in this Province and when he brought in new members - how many new ministers did he bring in?

AN HON. MEMBER: Five.

MR. TOBIN: Five? The Minister of Environment is head and shoulders above all of them, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Environment is a credit, when you look at what the Premier brought in, the Minister of Environment has done an excellent job, he is never in the trouble the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations is in, he is in trouble since he came in here. The Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker, is crucifying the poor. Who else came in?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Hulan.

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture, the greatest contribution that he has made so far, was to get the Premier to tell the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to stay out of fisheries matters and to drive everybody out of his office, but I have to say it in all sincerity that I believe the Minister of Environment is doing an excellent job.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about the Minister of Health? He is in the race, too.

MR. TOBIN: He might. I wouldn't doubt but he would be in it. That wouldn't surprise me, because he hit his head -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Health.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You will be supporting the Minister of Health.

MR. TOBIN: I don't care if the Minister of Health is in it or not. None of them have the ability to manipulate and connive like the five I just mentioned.

MR. FUREY: Are you going to be able to work with Verge?

MR. TOBIN: Work with Verge? I have worked with the Member for Humber East, I say to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, for the past fourteen years. For fourteen years I have worked with the member, and never had a problem working with her.

AN HON. MEMBER: She wasn't your leader.

MR. TOBIN: She wasn't leader? Sure, she was leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I say to the Minister of Social Services, she is no expert on picking leaders, because she was at our leadership convention before.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: She was at our leadership convention before, and I can tell you who will not win the leadership of the party.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I can tell the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation that when he turned his back on the fisherpersons of this Province, when he allowed the Minister of Fisheries and the Premier to put the clamp on his mouth, when he allowed that to happen, he lost it all. He doesn't even support a separate Department of Fisheries in this Province - stood up the other day and voted against a separate Department of Fisheries, as did some other people, like the Member for -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Eagle River, old yellowtail.

MR. TOBIN: No, Eagle River didn't sign it, but I will tell you who did sign it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who?

MR. TOBIN: The Member for Fortune - Hermitage, and the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island signed it, too.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He signed the petition?

MR. TOBIN: He signed the petition.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The other day, how come you stood up and voted against it?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who else signed it?

MR. TOBIN: Who else signed it? The Member for Bellevue.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Member for Bellevue signed it, yes.

MR. TOBIN: Fortune - Hermitage, Bellevue, Mount Scio - Bell Island, Fogo, Twillingate; who else signed it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I am after making a lot of good points here today, Mr. Speaker; I am not sure which one you are talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Environment, I have said what I have to say about him. There is only one thing I would say about the Minister of Environment that I haven't already said; he should have been in the Cabinet since 1989, and if it wasn't for the vindictiveness of the Premier, and the spite and everything else that is in that man, he would have been in Cabinet in 1989 and he would have done a good job, but because the Premier wanted to get even, he sat one of the top people he had in the back benches. That is why he wasn't in Cabinet. Those are the facts, the truth, and everyone in this House knows it, and most people outside know it.

Municipal and Provincial Affairs is under this heading as well.

AN HON. MEMBER: How is Efford doing?

MR. TOBIN: What?

AN HON. MEMBER: How is Efford doing?

MR. TOBIN: How is Efford doing? In what, the leadership?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Efford is not going to do anything in the leadership.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: He asked me how you were doing in the leadership, and I said you are not going to do anything in it. To tell you something else, John doesn't care if he does well in it or not, as long as there is a leadership.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he doesn't care if he is in it or out of it as long as there is a leadership.

Municipal and Provincial Affairs is under this heading as well, as is Finance. I will get to Finance directly.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I am not giving you a rundown. I just put John in his place.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) pockets.

MR. TOBIN: John, I told you yesterday, they are in my own pockets. They are not where you spent a lifetime with them in somebody else's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Welcome the interim leader back. He wants to welcome the interim leader back.

MR. TOBIN: Isn't that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, my time is just about out. I better -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I didn't spend a half-hour up already, did I?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, you only just started.

MR. TOBIN: I believe the Clerk made a mistake, Mr. Speaker.

MR. DUMARESQUE: What happened to the seven candidates (inaudible)?

MR. TOBIN: What is that?

MR. DUMARESQUE: What was happening to the seven candidates from the caucus (inaudible)?

MR. TOBIN: What happened to the seven candidates...?

MR. DUMARESQUE: That were going to run for the leadership in the caucus who were banging on the doors (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, eventually they will run. I say don't you ever doubt that one day the Member for Grand Bank will be premier of this Province, I say to the Member for Eagle River.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: I can tell you right now, and I told him today that he said he was going to think about it, that I offered my full support, and if he was in there, Mr. Speaker, I would be four-square behind him. Make no mistake about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Four times, and twice for council. Six times I've been elected, I say to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

AN HON. MEMBER: Six!

MR. TOBIN: Five. Six! Six times, Mr. Speaker. I would say that to the Member for Eagle River. The Member for Eagle River is no friend of the SPCA either, I understand. What happened to what you were going to do if you didn't get in Cabinet, I ask the Member for Eagle River? When you were going to frame the poor old Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, I would ask the Member for Eagle River. I don't know if the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations knows what I'm talking about or not, but he had a plan to frame you if he didn't go in Cabinet. He had a plan to frame you. The Member for Trinity North knows what I'm talking about. The Member for Fogo knows what I'm talking about.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible) made it all up.

MR. TOBIN: No, he didn't make it up. One of these days when the Premier is here I might tell him. I might tell the Premier what the plan is, Mr. Speaker, and tell him to make sure his dog is not out around the door.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: For security reasons I would tell him.

MR. TOBIN: For security reasons, yes.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Ask him what he said he would do with the Premier's dog.

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Ask him what he was going to do with the Premier's dog.

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Question Period.

MR. TOBIN: No, that is enough about that, Mr. Speaker. There are more important things in this Province to deal with than the Member for Eagle River, what he was going to do if he didn't get in Cabinet. He got to be a parliamentary assistant. Probably better than being in Cabinet, and the poor old dog survived.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion -

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

MR. TOBIN: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. TOBIN: - we say to the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board that I didn't get an opportunity to get into what he is involved in, Mr. Speaker, the skulduggery. I didn't really get into the skulduggery this evening, and I may have another opportunity.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why?

MR. TOBIN: Why? Because my time is just about up, and I'm only speaking by leave, and if I expose the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board for the skulduggery that they have all been involved in over there with the Trans City -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to expose the Trans City deal -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: The friends of the Premier, the friends of the government, Mr. Speaker, they have to be exposed!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been withdrawn.

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let me say that it is sad that when I get into the meat of the corruption they withdraw leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm glad to have the opportunity to say a few words on the Government Services Committee. I would just like to say that the hon. member spoke for his half-hour. He said he didn't have much to say when he started off, but it doesn't take long I suppose when you get excited like the hon. member did, talking about leadership conventions on both sides of the House.

I would like to make a few comments if I could on different departments that fall under the Government Services Committee. I would like to make a comment afterwards on the episode that the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West touched on in relation to what transpired over at the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation's office back a few months ago, but I will wait till the minister comes back to try to get some confirmation. Because I myself was puzzled when the Member for Burin - Placentia West called me yesterday and told me that he had received a call on the weekend concerning this meeting that we had at the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and he wanted to check out a few things for the House today. I was surprised because I did not mention it when I came out and the member had all the information first hand, I say to him. I think he got it from the sources who were also at that meeting but he has left now so I will wait until he comes back to touch on that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to touch on, if I could, the Employment Generation Program. I would like to say to the hon. minister that we were pleased to have the opportunity to have some programs in the district so that some of the people out there could find some much needed work. We were very concerned about how it all transpired over the time of a few weeks to get the programs approved, to get them out into the districts and to find that the criteria was very strict and that many people who were looking for work did not have the opportunity even to apply for the programs. As a result of that, there was tens and tens of thousands of dollars, I say to the minister, that had to be returned to his department or was not allotted due to the criteria. With so many people looking for work it really was hurtful that so many people were still left out in the cold even after this Employment Generation Program was announced, Mr. Speaker.

I heard the other day on the radio - and maybe the minister can give me a nod if it was true or not - that there is a proposal gone to the federal government now from the provincial government - the Premier was on Saturday I believe and I thought there was some type of job creation program that they are working on or trying to make some deals with the federal government on. Is that the case?

MR. MURPHY: You have to ask the Premier.

MR. MANNING: I have to ask the Premier. Yes, well, again we can't make any big announcements and take away from the Premier, I say to the minister. They are working on something and I am sure that the people of the Province are interested in what they are working on as it relates to job creation and some type of training work program. According to the Premier on Saturday, there were discussions - some type of work in that area, Mr. Speaker. I say to the minister that the programs that were announced in the Budget under his department, as it relates to the different programs, the sixty week program, the 20/20/20 subsidized program, is that up and running for this new year as of now, Mr. Minister?

MR. MURPHY: We are finishing off some negotiations and tying them up now. All members of the House should have a total package as we did, Mr. Speaker, in conjunction with the Employment Generation Package. All members will have a full package to understand the Employment Generation Programs associated with the BRIDGES, which is the womens' program, the student program is separate and of course the 20/20/20 which is 40/60 employer/employee. We will have all of that out very soon.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, maybe the minister could also enlighten us on the student program for the summer, the youth program for the summer. Usually around this time of the year, organizations that had had programs before usually get an application in the mail automatically to apply for this years program such as with the federal government. Two questions, is there any word on a federal challenge program yet? Usually it is out around February I believe and I have not heard much on it yet myself. In relation to your program for youth, over the next few weeks do you hope to have something out?

MR. MURPHY: I will suggest that the challenge program will be announced by Minister Tobin and/or the appropriate minister, Mr. Axworthy - maybe Mr. Tobin, maybe Mr. Axworthy. That is the federal program, totally funded federally. The program associated with the stipend for post-secondary university students, fifty dollars plus their credit back into their fall semester and what have you. Those programs of course, will be active this year.

MR. MANNING: Is that a few dollars or two dollars?

MR. MURPHY: A few.

MR. MANNING: A few? Okay, that sounds a little bit better.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: You see you get up here in the House and you ask a few questions of the minister and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes I know. We are just making some comments on different departments, asking a few questions -

AN HON. MEMBER: It is a Concurrence debate.

MR. MANNING: You get up here in the House and ask a few serious questions about some programs that concern the people in your district and the Minister of ITT, who is travelling all over the world trying to find a few jobs to bring into Newfoundland is now condemning me as a member for standing up and asking, on behalf of my district, as the member who is responsible for labour in the Province, a few questions concerning work. I cannot understand it, Mr. Speaker. I just cannot understand why the Minister of ITT, with the ambition he has to lead this party into the election, would get on like this about people looking for work in the Province. Maybe it is jet lag, I say, Mr. Speaker.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Perhaps he has been down to the vodka -

MR. MANNING: Maybe he was down to the old Carling O'Keefe building having a look around. Someone said to me the other day that you are God's gift to Aeroplan. Whatever that means, I do not know, Mr. Speaker. It is very interesting. I get up and ask some serious questions of the minister for the simple reason that the questions are being asked me concerning the youth program for the summer and concerning the Employment Generation Program.

I would also like to say that under Employment and Labour Relations there is an opportunity to provide work for people in the Province, and hopefully to come up with some type of programs, not just a job creation program as much as some type of training that will be associated with those programs. I would like to ask the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations if there are any plans within the department to come up with some type of program that would provide work and training, where a person would train for so many weeks, then go into the private sector, in some type of subsidy program for the private sector or something. Not just a short-term emergency program like you had last winter but something that would be more long-term and more beneficial, and that hopefully would create more permanent employment. Is there anything going on within party discussions in relation to something similar to that?

MR. MURPHY: The member is -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I have not recognized the minister.

The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: As the member is aware I guess the biggest problem we have in the Province right now is the displacement of all those people who have lost their livelihood because of the groundfish. We are working hand in hand with our federal counterparts on an early retirement program which the member is aware of, both for fishers and plant workers. That is on the upper end, the finishing end of the work, and we are also discussing with the feds now a program something similar to what the member is talking about. Of course it would not be fair to discuss that while negotiations are going on so I just say to the member that, yes, we are working on those type of programs and initiatives.

MR. MANNING: I have no problem at all. I heartily applaud the minister and his officials if they are working on the type of program that would have some type of training and be work related and that would be long-term with the possibility of creating more positive jobs.

I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation that I would like to touch on what the Member for Burin - Placentia West was asking you about, because he called me yesterday all concerned about the fact that I was thrown out of your office. The Member for Burin - Placentia West called my home yesterday and asked me what happened at the meeting they had. He asked, after the rally up on the White Hills did the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation invite you back to his office for a meeting? As a matter of fact the Member for Fogo said to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation: would you mind if we used your board room to have a meeting of all the concerned groups, to get ready for the rally that was proposed then, for down at the St. John's harbour front?

We went over and met in the board room of the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. We were about half an hour into the meeting when we received a 911 call to get out - to get out, move it - that was it, no discussion, no explanation. We were sitting down in the minister's board room, and I didn't mention it because I just followed... They told us to move out, so we moved out, but the Member for Burin - Placentia West called me yesterday and wanted to know all the details of what happened over at the minister's office. I said: Why do you want to know that? He said: I got a phone call from a businessman in St. John's who is very upset because he heard that this had happened.

So I explained to him what we had discovered afterwards, that the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture was very upset because the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, the Member for Port de Grave, had been in Ottawa a few days before that and dropped into Minister Tobin's office, had called the Member for Fogo to organize the rally up on White Hills.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, really?

MR. MANNING: Oh, yes. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation upset the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture because he went up to Ottawa on a transportation -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, no, I am just trying to explain so we will make sure that everything is out and everything is straight, I say to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. I wouldn't want it any other way. Why we got kicked out of the office, I had to tell a little bit of the story beforehand. What happened was that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation travelled to Ottawa on transportation business.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) took care of business.

MR. MANNING: Don't worry; I would say the Minister of Fisheries took care of you much better than he took care of me.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: He told you who you were allowed to have in your office and who you weren't. I would say that is calling the shots. He told you who you could have in your office and who you couldn't.

Anyway, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, I would just like to explain for those who are wondering why we got kicked out of the office, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, who was in Ottawa on transportation business, went to see Minister Tobin, called the Member for Fogo from Minister Tobin's office to tell him to arrange this rally on the White Hills.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, a good job. I was part of it, and I say to the minister, a good job. We were up on White Hills that morning and we had a good crew around. The Member for St. John's East Extern was there.

We were wondering where we could have a meeting, so the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, with what I thought was an excellent idea, suggested that we meet in his board room. I said: Why not? He was good enough to give us his board room, and about forty or forty-five of us went over to the board room and met. We were in the board room for about ten or fifteen minutes when a call came that we had to get out, move, right away. They didn't have time to explain the situation, but we had to move. The reason, we found out afterwards, is that the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture was very upset because the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation allowed us to go into his board room and meet. He said: You are not the Minister of Fisheries. He pointed his finger at him and said: You are not the Minister of Fisheries; I am.

The Premier agreed with the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture. He ordered the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to get those people out of his office, and we had to move.

MR. EFFORD: What were you doing up in St. Anthony?

MR. MANNING: What?

MR. EFFORD: What were you doing up in St. Anthony?

MR. MANNING: I was up there helping to elect the delegates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I will tell the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, I was sent to St. Anthony on a mission and I delivered. I delivered in St. Anthony, and I didn't have to buy any coupons. Don't you worry.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: There you go now, Mr. Speaker. There goes the minister and the Member for Fogo. I am sorry that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation had to leave, because I wanted to touch on the road work out around the Province. I know that other members have touched on it also, before me. We have a problem in the districts, in a lot of cases, with roads. I have calls coming in. As a matter of fact, I have people coming in to see me tomorrow concerning some certain roads in the district that have been put in deplorable shape over the past winter, and are in desperate need of repair.

I've talked to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation on the issue, and hopefully some dollars will become available to recap or to do something with the roads situation. Because the bus operators are complaining now, and the schools are complaining, about the roads and the safety of the children on the roads, due to the situation with the pavement and the highways over the winter months.

I hope to bring the issue to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation and hope that he will do something about it over the next few weeks, because it is a very serious issue in the district, as many members on this side of the House and I'm sure on the other side of the House have the same problems within their districts.

I will touch on another department if I could for a moment. It is the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The fact that there is a serious down loading from the federal government to the provincial government now has brought forward down loading from the Province to the municipalities. In the case of many municipalities in my district, it is that due to the closure in the fishery that the tax base has been almost - I won't say totally eliminated, but certainly reduced or greatly reduced as to the taxes that can be collected within the communities. Therefore it is causing some problem for the municipality to deliver on services and take care of essential services such as garbage collection and street lighting, et cetera. The fact that the Province is down loading in some cases because of the federal government down loading on them, that is making it much more difficult in municipalities.

I've met with most of the councils over the past couple of months. Several councillors have resigned over the past year or so due to the fact that they can't seem to make ends meet as it relates to running the municipalities. I think it is a very serious concern. I talked to the minister. I'm certainly interested in what the minister plans in relation to regional councils that they talked about last year. Where my district is spread out so much in geography it is a concern to many municipalities in the district about the plans for regional councils and exactly what they will encompass over the next few years.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to bring forward some of those concerns on behalf of the people of the district, and that the hon. ministers that are responsible for departments will look at rural Newfoundland in the way that at least - not to write it off, but indeed try to enhance it and try to make sure it survives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Crane): The hon. the Member for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to rise to make a few comments today on this Concurrence debate. In particular I'm going to start off by making a few comments on some discussions I've had recently with a community in my district that has shown a lot of perseverance lately, and probably showing perseverance against all odds. That is the community of Harbour Deep. You know, the great fishing capital. In fact, the Member for St. John's East Extern is very excited about going there for a little fishing trip maybe later. Maybe we will.

The community of Harbour Deep. It is a great community used as an example of a community that has gone against all odds in a lot of ways. Maybe it is a good example of a community that showed it can persevere and break the odds and still come out and be positive. It has a community council in place there now that keeps in contact very well. It also has gotten together and showed an enthusiastic approach to trying to do something for themselves. As I say, it was a good example for any community in this Province.

First of all, the thing to realize about Harbour Deep is the isolation factor. Of course, with the situation there that in the wintertime they only have a flight that is possible, the only way to get in there. Of course the summertime there is also the ferry. That particular community, I guess in respect to a lot of the communities in the Province, has relied so much on the fishery. As a matter of fact, Harbour Deep I would say was near 95 per cent maybe of dependence on the fishery. Now even the latest talks I've had with the people in that community - and I'm glad the Minister of Environment is here, because I have a concern I want to raise about that particular community with regards to the environment now in a few minutes - but first of all to just update the House, because the House has heard me speak often on this particular community.

They have just received word a little while ago - and the Minister of Natural Resources probably is aware of this - is that Abitibi, which owns a large part of the forest land in that area, has decided that they would give back to the Crown what is known as the Mooney block in that area. The whole idea of this surfaced about a year ago when of course the resettlement question came up there. Of course, we went there, we met with the people, and they started to look at the idea that the fishery will not be the same ever there again, and if it will ever make an impact on the community again, so they decided to look at another industry that was possible in that area, and that is the forestry.

The latest news, Mr. Speaker, is that Abitibi-Price has decided that they will return that land that they have held for so many years now in that area called the Mooney Block which is a very good piece of land as far as the forestry sector is concerned and they have decided to return that to the Crown.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the next step of course, is for that community, if they are going to look into the forestry industry in that area which they haven't before, is that they want to do the right thing, Mr. Speaker, that's the whole idea. I talked to the mayor just this morning again. They believe that, you know, if they are going to look at the forest sector in that Province, the forest industry in that particular area, then they want to do it right, they don't want to do it ad lib or at once, at one fell swoop and do something hastily that they might regret later, so they decided that they want to do it properly and so the next step of course, is to make sure that they do it properly by having a full study done of the forest industry in that area.

In that light, Mr. Speaker, I know they have contacted different departments of government and they are looking for funding to have the study done properly so that if they do turn into a forest industry in that part of the Province they will do it properly. Now, so far, I can gather from the council and from the mayor that they have run into some obstacles and of course, it is the same old story, Mr. Speaker, that relates to so many parts of this Province and so many people in business and everything else, is that, they have run into red tape; red tape on top of red tape and of course, now they are being choked by it and as a matter of fact, that was the mayor's concern this morning that they have gone through so many departments and have so many faxes come to them, that they don't know really, where they are as far as the study is concerned for that area.

So, Mr. Speaker, I bring up that note today so that the Minister of Forestry would first of all, hear it, that these people want to move on and try to develop this particular industry in that area and of course, they are going to need all the help they can get. They are a very small community but they are trying to do something for themselves and I think the job of any government, for any community, is to try to make sure they are helped in any way possible so that they can get through the red tape and bureaucracy that cover so much of these developments in the Province.

Now they are also having a problem - The Minister of Environment is in the House right now and I thought I would raise this for them now and maybe talk to the minister about it again later and that is, they have a dump in the community that was built not very long ago and, Mr. Speaker, if I am not mistaken, I would like the Minister of Environment to check into it for us and find out if that dump was actually built far enough away from the town. From the complaints I have now, Mr. Speaker, is that the dump is not very far from the town, it is within two kilometres from what I can figure so far, and that, Mr. Speaker, poses a lot of environmental problems to the community.

The people in that community are very disturbed right now because, as a matter of fact they have a dump right on their doorstep, not far enough away so that the smell doesn't come into the town, so, I hope the Minister of Environment is aware of this and I will raise it with him again but the people in the community are very worried about this. Also, in that same community, the three things they have asked me to raise and I will raise it here as it is a good opportunity, is that they are now waiting for some much needed infrastructure money that would see the development and construction of a crib which connects the town.

The town, if anybody has ever been to that particular community, is connected by a crib; it goes by a large base of rock at the mountain in the middle of the town and without that crib, Mr. Speaker, it is bad enough that they are isolated as a town but then they would also be split into two isolated parts of town which would be totally ridiculous and of course it is very important that these people stay connected in such a small community like that, so this infrastructure money for this particular crib is very, very important. So these are three concerns that are just being talked about in one community but the example of Harbour Deep is that, with the isolation, with the downturn in the fishery and everything else, and I think this is the message that the government is trying to send to most of these small communities, is, fend for yourself.

Well, Mr. Speaker, that is what these people are trying to do. They are isolated, they are over there all alone. They have a hard time with communication sometimes, let alone transportation and they need every little bit of help but they are people who are trying to persevere and overcome the odds of isolation and do something for themselves and they are doing that by looking at things like the forest industry, to try to diversify and they have realized that they will not return to a fishery of the old but they will have to look at new ways and diversify and be creative, and, Mr. Speaker, I commend these people in being able to do that and bring it forward. Hopefully, the different departments that I have mentioned here today, although it is a small community, it is not the saviour of everybody but it is an example for any community in this Province I say, Mr. Speaker, a lot of the same types of communities have the same types of problems in this Province and every little bit helps, I say to all the hon. members here today.

Now, Mr. Speaker, on a more broader front, I want to raise it again and the reason I want to raise it again, I will go on saying it over and over and over, is the forestry industry. I know I raised it just a few days ago but of course it is not something that the media jumps on, it is not something you see splashed all over the paper and that is the real, real shame about the forest industry in this Province. It is the same thing in the letters I have received over the last few days from the people who are going to lose their jobs when the forest centre in this Province is closed, The Canadian Forest Service.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I certainly know what I am speaking about but you would not understand. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation would not understand because like most people and like most ministers, they put the forestry on the back burner and put it away like before but, Mr. Speaker, I say it is a very, very serious issue and we are all guilty of it in this Province. As a matter of fact, I would even say members on this side, members on that side and the public, everybody. It seems like when you raise it, Mr. Speaker, it is another situation like the fishery. The fishermen in the boats told us for years, of course yes we hear you, yes we hear you and the loggers are saying the same bloody thing now and there is nobody listening again.

We get one blurb on it in the media for one day and then we forget about it again until two, three or four years from now. I have said it before, a Minister of Forestry in this Province - it won't be a federal minister standing or coming down so somebody can beat down the doors in the Delta somewhere, it will be right here in this Province, in this very House, when a Minister of Forestry stands up and says that there is a moratorium in the forestry of this Province. That is when it is too late. That is when we can all look at each other and we can say: Boys look, we've been told for the last five, ten or fifteen years and we've done nothing about it again. Do you know the sad part about that, Mr. Speaker, is that we won't be able to turn up to our buddies in Ottawa and say: You mismanaged our forestry. We won't be able to say the foreign draggers came in and killed our trees. We won't be able to do any of that, Mr. Speaker, and we also won't be able to do this and then they will say we will put a ten year or a fifteen year moratorium on which we are hoping the fishery will be revived in. We won't be able to do that. Trees grow a lot slower than even fish come back. At least that is what the signs show so far. We all know that it takes thirty, forty or fifty years for the regrowth of trees.

So, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that the forest industry in this Province seems to be put on the back burner again. Have we really realized in this Province how important that that announcement was just a couple of weeks ago that the forest centre in this Province - who, by the way, Mr. Speaker, were solely responsible for detecting the infestation which is about to take place again this summer. They also were solely responsible for the research done on the hemlock looper in this Province. It could be devastating to this Province, relating to forestry. I had a letter from one of the scientists who did most of the work on the hemlock looper in this Province and just a couple of days ago - I think the letters were sent to all the members in the House of Assembly, I think everybody else got it and they have all said: they did the sole research here. They were the ones responsible for coming up with the investigation into the hemlock looper. They are also the people who put forward the responses -

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That is right. The Minister of Finance is pretty well aware and I am glad he is aware because I say to the Minister of Finance, I wish we all were so much aware. As I said when I started to talk about this, it is too bad that we put this on the back burner and we sort of overshadowed it with all the other issues. When the truth is, Mr. Speaker, it could have just as devastating an effect as what we see in the fishery crisis right now. We are at a brink right now, we are at a crucial stage right now. I know because officials in the Minister of Natural Resources Department has told me and nodded to me when I brought up questions in resource committees, Mr. Speaker, that we are at a very crucial time in this Province's history of the forestry.

Every now and then I raise this in debate or whatever, it is going to be lost again until of course the day will come when the Minister of Forestry of this Province stands up and says: I am sorry but there is a moratorium in the forestry. The same as we have in the fishery. A renewable resource, Mr. Speaker, another renewable resource that we have not taken seriously enough. I am telling you, I know that many people in this Province - I've talked to loggers who walked through the woods and Mr. Speaker, I spend a lot of time in the woods myself; ice fishing, in the woods ski-doing wintertime, in the summertime hunting and fall hunting, all of that stuff and I don't need any expert from Ottawa, and I certainly don't need any expert telling me from New Brunswick, which is what is going to happen by the way.

I hope all members really realize the significance of that announcement the other day. There are seventeen workers left in this Province to do research on things like infestation, silviculture, thinning, and planting - that is bloody ridiculous! It is ridiculous that there are only seventeen people left for this entire Province. What the Federal Government is saying to us is, boys, you are on your own, that is another renewable resource.

That is fine to say, Mr. Speaker, but don't forget, this same government, and no matter what political stripe in Ottawa, were the same ones who told us they had control over the fishery and that everything was being managed and everything was fine. Now, can you believe it? It is hard to even envisage what they are saying to us, that seventeen people are left in this Province, a number not even worth talking about, and it is going to be administered out of a New Brunswick office? They are going to be monitoring and telling us the expertise that we need here in this Province? Mr. Speaker, that is not acceptable, and it should not be acceptable to one elected member of the House of Assembly in this Province. We should be outraged, and both sides of this House should stand together.

I have some ideas that I plan to raise over the next couple of months to bring this issue to the forefront so that it is not washed under the road and say, yes, boy, I agree with you but there isn't much we can do about it. Mr. Speaker, that isn't good enough anymore. In this House of Assembly we should stand together on this particular issue and say, you just ruined our fishery, with the help of a lot of things, but the Federal Government and management had a lot to do with it.

Now, we can say the same thing, but, Mr. Speaker, we will not have the luxury of being able to stand up and point our finger at Ottawa and say, you ruined our forestry, because we have a chance right now, and we have an opportunity as elected representatives of this Province to say, no, we are not going to accept that you close down a service in this Province which is so vitally important to sustain forests in this Province, and that is the Canadian Forest Services.

It has been, and the Minister of Finance knows, that it has been in effect in this Province since 1949, since Confederation. That is when that forest centre first started servicing this Province. We know now, the truth is, the reality is, that it wasn't big enough as it was, let alone break it down and ruin it again.

MR. EFFORD: Sit down, boy, you are putting me to sleep.

MR. SHELLEY: It is such a shame that all of us don't take it more seriously. For the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to make a comment like that, it is just an example of him as champion of the people on the fishery, which he was - now he says nothing. When you talk about the forestry in the Province he wants to go to sleep. It just goes to show you an example of the ministers who sit in this government and how they support such a thing. The renewable resources such as the fishery and the forestry, the fishery he says nothing on anymore, but he used to be up waving his arms all over the place, a big champion of the people out on the wharves and everything. He was such a big champion for the fishery and now with our second renewable resource, the forestry, he is yawning.

Like the Member for Placentia said before, at least they are in my pocket and not in somebody else like the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. It is a funny thing, the irony of the whole situation, isn't it, the hypocrisy of the whole situation? Imagine the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, the big hero of the fishery, stood up on how they ruined our fishery. It is funny how it flows right over from one to the other. He was such a champion on the fishery and now when we talk about the renewal of the forestry and he yawns. He says, what the heck about forestry, who really cares about forestry? a minister in this government, and that is what he is saying.

We see the crucial state of the forests in this Province and nobody is saying anything about it. There is nobody bothering to speak up and say anything about it and really live up to the reality that we are in a crucial time in this Province with respect to forestry. Instead we have a minister who sits back and yawns and says he is bored with it. What a shame, Mr. Speaker! Then, again, I guess you can compare it to the previous Minister of Forestry who, when I compared forestry to the fishery, which is a good analogy, I believe, a renewable resource that was mismanaged, the previous Minister of Forestry said, `All I know is that trees don't swim.' That was his response - so you can see by the response of the government - as a matter of fact, the only person who did speak up on forestry was the Minister of Finance when he talked about forest infestation and the Bt spraying. That was the first time I ever saw anybody raise their eyebrows on the forestry issue. What a real shame! Haven't we learned anything from the fishery crisis, all of us, as Newfoundlanders? Haven't we learned anything at all? We wait too long, we procrastinate, we put it off. Oh, it can't be that bad; and what happens? Boom, the same thing.

I always relate the story that I saw on Reflections or Remember When on the fishery, when the four gentlemen sat around the kitchen table, the old man and the three younger gentlemen - the three gentlemen were about in their forties, and the old gentleman - in 1949, a couple of days before the Confederation vote, and all the younger men were saying to the old fellow, `Come on; you've got to vote for Confederation, boy.' He said, `No way; I'm not voting for Confederation.' They said, `Why not?' He said, `If you vote for Confederation, you will see the day in this Province where you won't be able to go out and catch a fish to eat.' Of course, all the three younger men laughed.

I often wonder, after watching that clip, how much that old gentleman really knew. He said, `You are going to see a day, young man, when you won't be able to go out and jig a fish.' I really wonder, at this stage, talking to so many loggers day after day after day, when they say to me: `Mr. Shelley, if we don't see something done with the management of the forests in this Province, and the increased silviculture, not relying on 85 per cent natural growth, we are going to see a day when somebody stands up and says, not only are the big paper companies going to be in trouble, we are going to actually see a day in this Province in the not-too-distant future when we point to a man and say, `Sorry, boy, you have to burn fuel or electricity this winter; no more cutting trees, no more cutting firewood.' That' what is coming, the same as the old gentleman said in 1949, that we wouldn't be able to go out and jig a fish. Who ever thought that, I ask the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation? when we see a day when somebody told us that.

MR. EFFORD: Canada made the unfortunate mistake to elect a Tory government, that's what happened there.

MR. SHELLEY: It's such a shame, even when you allow the minister to have a few minutes, he can't give anything intelligent to the conversation. All he can do is mouth political rhetoric time after time after time, on such a serious issue. What a shame that a minister in the government of this Province can't give a sensible direct answer about a real, real concern that people have in this Province, that he can't stand up as a minister and give something straightforward, instead of talking about seventeen years and Sprung greenhouses. Aren't people getting tired of that rhetoric?

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that people are getting tired of that rhetoric. They are really wondering now when this government, when all of us, stand up and start to say that what is happening in the forestry of this Province has to be recognized, and recognized now, and if you think there is a panic on, you are right; there is a panic on. The panic is right now, and should be in the forefront of the situation. It is no good to push the panic button after disaster takes place. If it is close to panic, then you push the button before it happens, that's what I am saying, and not wait until Ottawa, or some expert out of New Brunswick's regional office tells us that we have a forest infestation problem. It is simple. I don't need those experts to tell me, either, that if you cut trees for whatever reason, commercial or private use, if trees are burned in forest fires, if trees are infested by insects, if there is overgrowth and over-maturing of trees that die, those are all the things that take away from the forestry. Now, let's see what we are giving back. We are relying 85 per cent on natural regrowth - that was last year's report, 85 per cent on natural regrowth.

Now, you go into the Province of New Brunswick - let's do another comparison again - 400 per cent more spent on silviculture than in this Province. Now are we happy with that? that is what I ask the Minister of Natural Resources. As the minister responsible for forestry in this Province, with signs of a possible disaster in the forestry, are you content with this downgrading? Are you content to sit there and let silviculture be deteriorated in this Province? That is what we have to ask, and I have asked the minister quite sincerely in the Resource meetings also, what can we do, and what can the government initiate? I can tell the minister that I would support, and I am sure that any member on this side of the House would support, any move we could take to encourage this Federal Government, this particular government in power now in Ottawa, to change their minds on the proposal to downgrade the CFS Centre here in this Province. And further, to put an end to that federal/provincial agreement that was the mainstay - it was the most important, vital thing in this Province related to forestry in this Province.

I wish I had brought the quotes with me today, because I read and read and read on this day after day. Mr. George Baker, in a quote that I have written down up there - and I will bring it down to the House over the next couple of days - before the federal election: We will not allow the end to that agreement, we will not allow it.' Well, I have a letter going to Mr. Baker and the other people like - and Mr. Tobin, my member in my district, our member now for Newfoundland in the Cabinet, who spoke at a champagne breakfast in Corner Brook. `Not only are we not going to end the federal-provincial agreement,' he said, `we are going to enhance it and prolong it and we are going to open up another forest centre on the West Coast.'

Now, Mr. Speaker, what great aspirations we had for forestry in this Province. And all of a sudden it is forgotten about? I think we can remind our federal counterparts very quickly of what they said during those election promises. I think we can remind them that the forest industry in this Province is at the same stage or even has worsened in the past couple of years. In fact, it is important now more than ever that that centre remain and be increased, and also, the federal-provincial agreement - every member of this House of Assembly should in some way communicate with their federal counterparts that this cannot happen, we are at a crucial stage in this Province for forest industry and this cannot happen.

It is no problem for any of us, or it should not be, to call and write - I know they've talked to people in their own industry, especially on the West Coast and Central Newfoundland who rely so heavily on the forest industry - and say: Yes, we are very afraid, we are very concerned, that unless we start to send a strong message - not discuss it. The Minister of Natural Resources said he is having discussions with the federal forestry division. Discussions are not good enough. We need to put the pressure on our federal counterparts to say we are at a time and a stage in this Province's history where we either act now, or we will be forever sorry. We will be forever sorry, the same as we are with the fisheries crisis as we see it right now.

So, Mr. Speaker, forestry - although it has been put on the back burner in the last few months even again as we try to raise these concerns, I want to hear the minister and the members get up and talk about the forestry. You can talk about the forestry. I know in talking to all members on this side and the other side that they have some of the same common concerns that I have, and that in fact the analogy of the fishery is a good one. It is a renewable resource that is going the same way as the fishery, but it is also taking in the commercial effect of the two big companies in this Province, Abitibi and Kruger, the personal effect and also the main things that devastate the forests in our areas right now.

This Canadian Forest Service, which was solely responsible for the research and identifying of the infestation which is about to occur this summer - can you imagine, if we are relying on a group from New Brunswick to tell us about the hemlock looper in this Province, where all the research was done in this Province by a scientist who wrote me just a couple of days ago? As a matter of fact, he was the one in particular who was solely responsible for the research on the hemlock looper.

Mr. Speaker, they are real concerns of people who know the industry best. Like the scientist here in this Province has said, in conjunction by the way with members from Memorial University staff who do a lot of research in that area also, have also agreed with him that this type of research cannot be monitored and should not be done outside in New Brunswick. There are different climate reactions to different chemicals, there are different soil textures, there are different make-ups of the tree itself. All of these pertain to Newfoundland and are unique to Newfoundland. That is why it just makes sense that it is done right here in our own Province and not shipped out and monitored out of some office in New Brunswick.

These are concerns in the forestry that I know we all have and I would hope that all members on either side of the House would raise concerns to their minister here in this Province, and also with our counterparts in other parts of Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make just a few points on that today, and to talk about the forestry in general, but hopefully get the support of other members of the House of Assembly on a very crucial subject which we may see go the way the fisheries did unless we act on it immediately.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to have a few words on the Government Services Estimates.

Much has been said during the Estimates and here today, the few speakers who have spoken on what has happened at the Estimates and more particularly as it pertains to Municipal and Provincial Affairs; Employment and Labour Relations, Finance - well, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is in with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and Public Service Commission is included with - what is it, Employment and Labour Relations? No, Finance, I suppose, is it? Public Service Commission -

The Minister of ITT's Concurrence debates are tomorrow I think, tomorrow or Wednesday, is it? We will be discussing some of the Concurrence debates which include ITT and the minister probably won't be here but, Mr. Speaker, one of the things that comes to mind when I look at some of the heads and when we discuss some of the different government departments and so on, is that, there is not much said any more about the federal government. Everything is fairly quiet, no matter what they do, everybody seem to be subdued. Members opposite, ministers opposite especially, are not saying much, they are very quiet.

I remember just a few short months ago when, if there was a $15 million or $20 million, even a possibility of a reduction in transfer payments or anything like that, Mr. Speaker, all hell broke loose; all hell broke loose, then all of a sudden there was a change of government in Ottawa and everything has been silenced since. Now I don't know, I mean, even the Premier was out in the western part of the country just before the federal budget came down, and he was telling the news media of the nation, that he could understand the dilemma in which the federal government finds itself. He could understand that there is a deficit that has to be worked on and we should all do our part; he could understand that if the transfer payments were cut to the provinces that he would have to share the load as well as everybody else. All of a sudden, Mr. Speaker, there is a great feeling of understanding.

I don't know and I am sure that ministers opposite are not looking for anything federally, they are not looking for anything on the federal scene but all of a sudden, the Premier of the Province is really receptive, no matter what comes down federally, whether it is the budget, even as it pertains to the fishery now, the negotiations going on with the Spaniards. They are out there now, they have everything filled, even filled with tom cods and Buddy says, Sparnies, everything out there now, filled, ready to go home, Mr. Speaker, and it is about time we do something about it.

I commend Mr. Tobin, for what he did there a month or so ago and, Mr. Speaker, I say that they are going to have to move again and move fast if not there will be absolutely nothing out there and despite what the Premier said today, the current provincial Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture on KIXX this morning in Corner Brook before I left it in Deer Lake, he said that: no matter if we reach a deal with the Spaniards tomorrow, it is not going to be any good, they are going to overfish anyway, and I don't know but it is one of the first times since he became minister that I probably would agree with him, because a lot of the other things he has done since he became minister are not so -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: He probably was, Mr. Speaker. I thought he was talking about chicken because he is very involved with it now, I will tell you that, in destroying whatever is left of the chicken industry let alone everything else. But, Mr. Speaker, in the few short minutes I have, I wanted to get something in about the Department of Employment and Labour Relations and something that was brought to my attention just this weekend by a constituent of mine - and maybe other members, members on the other side of the House may be very interested in it and probably some of my colleagues. I just talked to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations and I talked to the Minister of Natural Resources about it and this is a constituent of mine who works in the United Kingdom, he works on tankers in the United Kingdom three or four months at a time, comes home for three weeks and then he goes off again to work. Very qualified and working on ships of all sizes, those large tankers in the North Sea and tankers in other parts of the United Kingdom but he was explaining and saying to me that he was very worried about those tankers that will be working between the Hibernia field and shore.

He named two particular areas of so called certificates, it is what you call the IG or inner gas certificate and the COW which is the crude oil wash system. The Member for Harbour Main may know exactly what I am talking about. Those are two areas he says that if and when - not if, when the tankers start to bring in the oil from the Hibernia field that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, unless they have those two certificates, will not be allowed to work on those tankers. I was talking to the Minister for ITT as well but I wanted to say it now publicly because backbenchers there who are well aware of the possibility of people in their districts who may want to go to work and people like the Member for Harbour Main who has been close to this for years, may be able to have some input in making sure that ministers get something in place now before it is too late.

He went on to say that in the Lazmo field off Nova Scotia, that there is all - apparently there is mostly Norwegian tankers with Norwegian crews. Now if that is the case, we could quite conceivably, Mr. Speaker, end up here with much the same thing. We may have our own ships. The Hibernia Development Corporation or the Hibernia people may own their own ships, Mobile or whichever, they own their own ships but at the same time we may have to employ people from offshore, whether they are Nova Scotians, whether they are from other parts of Canada or whether they are from somewhere else, I don't know but what he says -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: No, it is not there. I thought it was there and he thought it was there but he says they are presently not available at the Marine Institute. In order to be ready for the upcoming employment these courses must be established now or we will be left behind as in the case of the Lazmo field. So I don't know. I find it hard to believe that this gentleman, who was well aware of what he needs - he must have done some checking -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, but apparently the work on the tankers, you have to have the two of them.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, I see.

MR. WOODFORD: Now, I don't know - correct me if I am wrong - you have to have the IG and the COW certificate.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, that is right.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: No, this is the COW system; it's not the CO2. The CO2 system is a little different. The COW is what they call a crude oil wash system, but the bottom line is that if we haven't got it - like I was just talking to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations about - it is too late when the day comes, for someone to walk into someone's office and say: Boy, we could hire you; you've got all kinds of experience with boats, and working on boats, regardless of what size they are, but we can't hire you because you need this or you need that.

All I am saying is that I think the people responsible should be very cognizant of this particular area, and not have our people... because there is a great chance for employment out there, no question, on those tankers. I can't see where there shouldn't be all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, every person on it, because we have all kinds, with our association with the sea, regardless of the size of the vessel, our association with the sea over the years lets us be great candidates, and our people be great candidates, for working on those tankers.

I think that the ministers, in particular, will be very vigilant and make sure and support - I don't know if it comes to the Minister of Education - it might come down to the Minister of Education and Training, because the training part of that now comes under his department, so I just want to make sure that the ministers I mentioned it to, and I gave the correspondence to, to make sure that this is (inaudible). Maybe some of it is there now, and maybe some of it is not, but I think it is very important that we address that, and address it fairly soon.

I just noticed the other day that there were two contracts let for two tankers, was it, for the Hibernia field - I believe there were two contracts - and they are supposed to be delivered within a year. A year is nothing only a flash, that's all, so we have to be very, very vigilant and make sure we have this kind of stuff in place before this time next year.

Mr. Speaker, we have said a lot about Municipal and Provincial Affairs in the last two or three weeks, here in the House, a lot of questions as it pertains to municipalities and the fiscal state they are in. There are some near bankruptcy. The minister was telling me there are some, probably fifty or sixty, in very poor financial shape. We have about 250 or 260 who are either over or near their borrowing capacity out of the approximately 287 incorporated communities in the Province. We have cuts to fire equipment, just today we found that out for sure, and it is in the Estimates. It is no secret as it is in the Estimates, $1 million down to $250,000.

I am afraid that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs over the next year is going to be very, very busy answering questions and trying to solve some of the problems of his department with regard to municipalities around the Province. I just read an article the other day concerning the court case on Bell Island, the volunteer fire brigade on Bell Island. There were four individuals taken to court and charged with negligence, and if the court decides in favour of the plaintiff in this case it is going to have a very large impact on every municipality in this Province.

Now, I think the minister needs a lot of support from Cabinet and the rest of his caucus colleagues in this because if municipalities in this Province today have to pay for fire fighting services, if they are near bankruptcy now, then they will not have a chance after, because approximately 98 per cent of the fire fighters in this Province are volunteers. They go out, they ask no questions. As the minister said the other day they are protected from the time they leave their house until they go to the fire and come back with regards to Workers' Compensation and insurance. That was a good thing, a good move, an excellent move, so that load is off the fire fighters shoulders, especially as it pertains to compensation, but who would want today to go out and do something on a volunteer basis and know full-well that by the time they get back, or a few days after a report, the Fire Commissioner's report or something like that comes in, the individual is charged with negligence, after his or her going out on a volunteer basis and trying to do something for the good of their community and the good of the people in it.

The minister, in replying the other day to questions I asked him on this particular subject, said they are going to wait and see what happens to the court case, and then probably see what they could do if they ruled in favour of the plaintiff, but I still think there is time to start the ball rolling now and get something in place to cover all volunteer fire-fighters in the Province before it is too late, and before anything else happens. That stress and strain is then taken off the volunteer fire-fighter, and they can do their work with peace of mind and look after the affairs of the people in the communities in which they serve.

Mr. Speaker, I would be remiss, if before I get off the Department of Employment and Labour Relations, when I was taking about this IG certificate and the COW certificate - there is one thing I would like to remind ministers opposite, that there may be a lot of other positions to do with the offshore, with the Hibernia field, and especially with the Terra Nova field coming up, that we may not be able to fill, unless and until we put something in place. The people out there don't know, ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians don't know what kinds of jobs are going to be available on this particular structure.

They know they can go out to Bull Arm and do carpentry, pipe fitting, labour - dish washing, and everything else, but this is going to be a whole new concept. We are only used to looking at television and reading about it in the papers, looking at what is happening in the North Sea and in other parts of the world with regard to shipping.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: That's right. First of all, I think government is fully responsible for identifying the jobs that are going to become available on those ships, on the Hibernia site once it starts, or the Terra Nova, the Ben Nevis, or the White Rose, no matter what it is, they should be put on the table now - what is going to be needed, whether it be 100 jobs or 300 jobs on the tankers, have an assessment done of the unemployment rolls in the Province and see who we have available to go on them.

Now, do we have 1000 people to put on those tankers and on the site? We might only have 200, but we have a year, two years, or three years at most, Mr. Speaker, to make sure we have the people available who will be able to avail of the jobs on the Hibernia site - two, really, we have two-and-a-half years on offshore.

We have the Terra Nova field that could quite conceivably be pumping gas at the same time as, or before, the Hibernia site. We could, quite conceivably, because that can be taken with a floating platform. There is no need of using a GBS on the Terra Nova site, it could be done with a floating platform. The technology is available now, they are doing it in the North Sea, they are doing it in other parts of the world, off the Shetland Islands, the whole works. They have been doing it for years, it's nothing new, not a new concept at all. That oil can be taken out there almost over night. It is the matter of getting a royalty scheme in place, a matter of getting permits in place and a matter of the will and wishes of the people who own the field to get together and put something in place. Now, do we have the people? I think it is incumbent on government - we will probably be still sitting here on this side of the House and I hope that I won't have to stand here and criticize this particular government for not putting something in place so that our people could take advantage of the jobs on the Hibernia site.

The Department of Education, the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Employment and Labour Relations and the Department of ITT all should be held responsible if we do not have the people to fill those jobs. It is not that we don't have the people, we have a 22 per cent unemployment factor in the Province, Mr. Speaker, a 22 per cent unemployment rate. So we have no problem at all with getting the people to do it. All we have to do is put the means there for people to take advantage of it. Because if this is true, we are going to have a lot of people who have the capabilities and wouldn't mind going to work and making good money, bringing in great returns for this Province, great returns for their families and great revenues for the Province. Every bit of income tax that is made, the revenues come back to this Province. But if the proper certificates and the proper means are not there for those people to take advantage of it, then we won't have the chance, we will not be able to do it.

Mr. Speaker, one of my colleagues mentioned today, insurance liability and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, that his department, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, I suppose, should have something in place. Mr. Speaker, how can someone go get a car license - we know how they can do it, they are going in to get an insurance, get a liability for one month and then they are taking it and going on the street, absolutely nothing only liability on an old wreck. Now they can do it no problem, because before at least they had to get the wreck inspected. Now they can go out and put four new tires on a 1970 and go, whatever they get out of it, whether it is two weeks, two months, three months, shove it in the scrap yard, and then get another.

So I say to the minister that he should put something in place with the Minister of Justice to make sure, with the technology, information highways and INTERNET, the technology we have today, an RCMP officer or an RNC officer should be able to just go to his car, punch a button, and tell whether so-and-so has liability or not.

Well, I tell you, Mr. Speaker, the numbers of people on the streets today who are driving without liability are staggering, and when we look at insurance companies, the prospectus this time for the insurance companies, the third-party billing is the one - and who is doing that? It is the lawyers who are making the thousands and the millions.

AN HON. MEMBER: The what?

MR. WOODFORD: The lawyers, oh, yes, with all due respect to my colleague. You see it in the papers, especially on the mainland, if anything happens, if you are in an accident, please do not sign anything; just come in and see us.

You talk to the insurance companies and ask them - and look at the rates. Look at the largest rate increase for the insurance companies this year, third party, all third party, because now if you hook the leg of your pants getting out of one of the member's cars, that is it.

MR. EFFORD: Hook what?

MR. WOODFORD: The leg of your pants. You could hook - and if you hooked something else, you are in trouble.

Mr. Speaker, it being 4:59 p.m., I -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: We are not adjourning at 5:00 p.m. Carry on.

MR. WOODFORD: I am finished, anyway.

Mr. Speaker, that is very important. I am serious, and I am sure there are members opposite who know full-well that there are people going around this Province today driving with no liability. And I think it is cruel that this kind of thing is happening today when you have people out there who are going out and paying thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for insurance. And the minister knows full-well they are out there, and he and the Minister of Justice should be doing something to make sure that problem is addressed.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Lawyers, it's not like we need them.

AN HON. MEMBER: We can elect one leader of the Tory party.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. We can elect one leader of the Tory party now, that is true, and then we have - that is something we could do to make all things equal.

AN HON. MEMBER: They already have one, Leader of the Liberal Party.

MR. WOODFORD: We will make all things equal. We will elect one for the Tory party, then we have three. Now, I won't go on. I had better get off that lawyer thing.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is one hat trick we can do without.

MR. WOODFORD: We don't need a hat trick.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, getting back to Municipal and Provincial Affairs, the minister stated earlier today that he didn't lower the Municipal Operating Grants this year. The minister mentioned today that in order to get money to increase the equipment for the fire-fighting service, he would probably have to take it from the MOG. I say to the minister, if he touches the MOG anymore, if he thinks he has problems now - at least, if the minister got $42 million under the MOG, that is $42 million he will get back. Once it goes out to the municipalities it will come right on back in his coffers through the debt repayment schedule.

The Minister of Finance and Treasury Board should make sure that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has some funding in the very near future, some extra dollars to play with. If not, he is going to be in very deep trouble.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: A weak minister, another weak minister, Mr. Speaker.

The other thing that I find interesting this year, and I've -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: What is the big rush, what is the big tear? We got the Estimates done during the week, night after night. We are now in the Concurrence Debate, will be finished probably by Wednesday evening or Thursday at the latest; Supplementary Supply is done. We have everything - what is the big tear? Then we are off for three weeks and back then to finish up the Budget Debate.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether there is something up or what, but anyway, I will have another chance to say a few words on the Concurrence Debate on the resource sector. So, with those few short comments, Mr. Speaker, I will adjourn.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried! Carried!

MR. CAREEN: You'll be carried. The people from your district have been carrying you for ages.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker - the chance to talk to a couple of the ministries. The Minister of Employment and Labour Relations has moved his jowls, so I will have to respond to him first.

Just briefly! Before Christmas members over here were loud in their petitions to get a job creation project for the needy of this Province. Then, when we recessed over Christmas - lo and behold! - what a seedy, seedy, despicable project -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) despicable.

MR. CAREEN: Oh, yes, despicable; it is still a good word.

It was brought in, a dirty carrot to dangle in front of poor people with the idea of getting at least 60 to 70 per cent of the money back for the poor people of this Province.

Indeed, the criteria that the government had set up at the time was not close to the criteria they had set up for the former Member for Placentia, Mr. Hogan, on a similar job creation project, a $75,000 contract; and we haven't seen any proof of what he did when he was there.

When will the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations be releasing his report, what he had done for the time he was there, or is he still employed by Employment and Labour Relations? Is he still there in your department?

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) my department.

MR. CAREEN: Boy, there is an owl over there, is there? Who!

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) biggest employer in the Province, namely the government.

AN HON. MEMBER: And the biggest employee in the Province, Mr. Hogan.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, Eric Gullage.

MR. CAREEN: The trough is full of them. Just wait until we see these towns, these municipalities in Newfoundland, going bankrupt. That's when we will see the trough overflowing, because when councillors resign who is going to administer it all? Who is going to administer it? They will be jockeying. This fellow will say: I can look after six towns. Another fellow will say: I can look after seven.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Boy, hear the member for Eagle River! Last year I talked about him getting his toes amputated so he could get closer to the backside of the Premier. He had his toes amputated and he got a job as Parliamentary Assistant. Now, what is he going to get amputated next so he can get into the Cabinet? It's worrisome. It is indeed worrisome.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Bobbit.

MR. CAREEN: Anyway, it is indeed worrisome what a person will do to get into the Cabinet.

AN HON. MEMBER: Danny Bobbit.

MR. CAREEN: I mean, he threatened a poor, dumb animal, that what he would do was slit the throat of a poor, dumb animal.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I never threatened you.

MR. CAREEN: No. I might be an animal but I didn't come down with the last rain either, I say to the Member for Eagle River.

MR. WOODFORD: Duke. That's Duke.

MR. CAREEN: Duke. There's a lot of difference in him and John Wayne. That is not the old Duke he was talking about, I would imagine.

MR. WOODFORD: Duke won't come handy to him now.

MR. CAREEN: Anyway, on Works, Services and Transportation. The minister just disappeared. He did his hiding act.

Anyway, on the South Coast ferry system, the fifty-odd million dollars, the minister a little over a month ago had said that that money would be put aside to generate its own funds into perpetuity. Now, perpetuity is forever or `when two parallel lines meet' -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) like the speech you just (inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: Just like the battery, eh!

Anyway, he said: In perpetuity. They would take the money from the feds, put it in it's own fund where it would generate it's own interest and go on and on and on; and the people would have no worries about the South Coast service. The minister doesn't understand what `in perpetuity' means, or what `eternity' means.

I was told one time about `eternity.' If you have a mountain that is a thousand times higher than any other mountain on earth made up of flint, a thousand times tougher than any flint known to man, and a seagull comes once every thousand years and sharpens his bill, when he has it worn down to sea level `eternity' has just begun.

Now, is that how long he was talking about for the South Coast service? Hardly! Because they spent $31 million last year and $19 million will be used this year to help balance the budget, and a few million dollars will be left. What about the South Coast service and the people who need it? What they need is a new minister.

We see what the minister has done to the inspections in this Province, the same Minister of Works Services and Transportation. We see the way he ignored the people of Pippy Park and Pippy Park borders three Liberal district, St. John's North, Mount Scio - Bell Island and, I think, St. John's Centre. Obviously he ignored all those, because last session they brought in a bill whereby the government could get the land that these people owned. They have no rights. This minister was the person going around the Province, when they got back in government, advocating peoples' rights; but it was sham.

Now we hear that the Prince Phillip Building is going to be renovated. When the Tory Administration was in power last some $27 million was spent creating the West Block to move provincial offices from around the city to up here on the hill, to get them all in the one place. Now, what do we see so many years after? As many or more provincial departments out around St. John's. Now we see what you are going to do with Prince Phillip Place to put Natural Resources down there. I don't know what you are at. I say, the government over there is like Mullins' dog. You're on you own account. You're on your own account indeed.

Anyway, I will let you go for another day.

MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Further speakers? Is the House ready for the Question?

On motion, Report of the Government Services Estimates Committee, carried.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that just goes to show what happens when we send my friend from Gander across the way. He goes over and all of the sudden the debate collapses and everything carries.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Makes sense to me, Mr. Speaker. I commend, as always, the wisdom, compassion, insight and courage of my friend from Gander, who I am glad to see is not yet in his natural seat. Someday, when he has been Premier for eight or ten years, he may have to sit across the House. That will be twenty years from now, if he is eight or - anyway I am getting distracted, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, there is one other item we should dispose of before we adjourn the House for the day, and that is the question of the business on Wednesday. We have two more Concurrence Debates to go. Tomorrow we shall call the one that is standing on today's Order Paper, the Social Services Committee, and then my proposal would be that we take Wednesday and use Wednesday as a government day and deal with the Concurrence Debate on the Report of the Resource Committee. If that is then adopted, Wednesday afternoon the government would propose that the House adjourn until the eighth of May. If it is not done on Wednesday, it will have to be done on Thursday which means we will adjourn on the eve of Good Friday, instead of the eve of the eve of Good Friday.

Now, it will require unanimous consent to do that, because the Standing Orders provide that Wednesday is a Private Members' Day. I have spoken with my colleagues here and we are prepared to do it with the understanding that the first Wednesday that the House meets after the break, which will be the tenth of May, would be a day when Your Honour looks to your left to those who sit on the left here to select the motion to be debated on that Wednesday.

So, with that done, if that is agreeable, Your Honour, perhaps I could make a motion to that effect.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Just a few words, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TOBIN: Bill, don't be bullied by him.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Government House Leader wants it all. I mean, he wants us now to agree with foregoing Private Members' Day on Wednesday, but then he wants the government to have Private Members' Day the Wednesday after we come back. Boy, he is really getting pushy again.

MR. ROBERTS: But this Wednesday would be a government Private Members' Day.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, for us agreeing to forego it, perhaps you would give us the first Private Members' Day when we come back, I say to him.

MR. ROBERTS: We gave you the first Private Members' Day when the session started.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, but there's give and take. Never make him President of Treasury Board, I say to members opposite, never put him in the position where he is the chief negotiator for the Province. Never, never, never!

Once my good friend here, who will soon be over in the Premier's seat, is Interim Premier, Interim Leader, clear him out of the House Leader's job. That is the first thing you have to promise me. If you want to get out of here on Wednesday, you have to promise me that you fire Roberts in the first hour that you are Interim Premier.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, what I've just said is only in jest.

MR. TOBIN: Don't give him anything.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will agree with what the Government House Leader has proposed. We will forego Private Members' Day and Wednesday we will do the third Concurrence Debate and come back on the eighth of May. Yes, indeed, there are not too many people over here who have been fighting and wanting to do Private Members' Day on the tenth of May. So you can have that as well.

Before we do that, I wonder if the Government House Leader could tell us why he has been in such a rush and such a hurry the last few weeks to try and get everything rammed through. People are wondering: What is it all about? Why is he pushing it so hard? He has Interim Supply to do him for three or four months, $1,054,000,000, and he is still trying to push and bully. I don't know what it is about. Perhaps he could explain that before we adjourn for the day.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that will obviously be decided on the twenty-eighth of April. When the new leader comes in, he or she will be looking for a new House Leader and I am available. I mean, what more could one ask? My friend from Gander and I will be sitting over where my friend from Grand Bank and his colleague from Grand Falls now sit. That will probably happen about the time when hell freezes over, would you say.

I say to my friend - as my friend knows, I have been in both those jobs and I wish him well of them.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I listen to the hon. gentleman speak frequently.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROBERTS: Purgatory could be but blessings compared to having to listen to my friend from Burin - Placentia West.

Mr. Speaker, perhaps we could put a motion to the effect that Wednesday be a government day and the first Wednesday after we resume on the eighth of May would be a day when Your Honour will look to Your Honour's left for the motion.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

I believe the resolution which I suspect needs unanimous consent is that this Wednesday be a day for government business and that Private Members' Day be dispensed with; and secondly that the first Wednesday after the return of the House on May 8, that being May 10, will be a government Private Members' Day.

All those in favour of the motion, `Aye'. Contrary minded, `Nay'. Motion carried.

MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I move that we adjourn until tomorrow, Tuesday, at two o'clock, and we will be dealing with the Report of the Social Services Estimates Committee.

I thank my friends on both sides for their enthusiastic support.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 2:00 p.m.