May 17, 1999               HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS              Vol. XLIV  No. 25


The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The Chair would like to take this opportunity today to welcome sixty students, ages fifteen to seventeen years. These are students from all across Canada. They are here with Encounters with Newfoundland and Labrador, and are accompanied by their director, Denis Labossiere.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon,. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise to announce that today, May 17, 1999, has been proclaimed as Municipal Government Awareness Day throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The theme selected for this special day is most appropriate: Dedicated People Working For you.

Today is the day designated to highlight the important role of municipal government. It encourages people to participate more fully in municipal government affairs and to involve themselves in activities which will increase pride in their municipalities. It is designed to recognize the efforts of mayors, councillors and municipal administrators who work diligently on behalf of communities in the Province and it raises awareness of the cost and value of services provided by municipal councils.

The Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, the Federation of Municipalities, and the Association of Municipal Administrators are mutually supportive of this initiative. I have been pleased and encouraged by the cooperation between these partners on major recent initiatives such as the review and the development of the New Municipalities Act, the review of the Urban and Rural Planning Act, and the development of guidelines for the Multi-Year Capital Works Program.

In conclusion, I want to say that the provincial government is committed to the principles of local governance. It is my hope that the two levels of government will continue to work together to build on a strong relationship with respect to municipal affairs to the benefit of all residents of the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, it is about time. After ten years, this Administration are finally starting to give some credit to the municipalities in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I would like to say that after ten years, a short statement trying to recognize the mayors, councillors and municipal administrators, talk is cheap.

The government, this Administration, has cut the municipalities in this Province by 50 per cent in their municipal operating grants over the past five years. I say to the minister: Why not start reinstating some of the money taken from the mayors and councils across this Province, so they can do the job they were elected to do?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for an advance copy of his Ministerial Statement. I, too, want to rise and pay tribute to the many people around the Province who give freely of their time to perform duties that are necessary in the communities around.

It takes a strong commitment from the people to become involved in this. They are oftentimes operating under very adverse conditions, particularly in light of the cutbacks in their funding. They are the people who are closest to the citizens, and many times they are the ones who take the flack for being unable to deliver what the residents of each community need. I think they are to be commended in operating in adverse conditions such as they are.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, May 17 to May 22, 1999, is North American Occupational Safety and Health Week in Canada, the United States and Mexico. This year's theme, "Occupational Safety and Health: It's Everybody's Business" recognizes the importance and absolute necessity of everyone doing their part to prevent workplace illness or injury.

On Wednesday, May 12, 1999, I presented this year's Occupational Health and Safety Recognition Awards at a ceremony held in St. John's at the Fluvarium. These awards are an initiative of the Department of Environment and Labour and Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.

Mr. Speaker, this year's nominations displayed superb attention to the importance of workplace health and safety. The Award of Merit was presented to Mr. Ralph Martin of Newfoundland Power for his role in saving the life of an eleven-year-old girl who was drowning.

The Volunteer Appreciation Award was given to Mr. Michael Dormody of Richmont Mines, Baie Verte, for outstanding commitment to health and safety in the workplace.

The Innovative Safety Solution Award was presented to Arua Ralhan and Catherine Waugh of the Health Care Corporation of St. John's for their role in developing a device to assist in moving and lifting patients in hospital beds.

The Outstanding Safety Committee or Worker Representative Award went to the workplace health and safety committee of the Iron Ore Company of Canada.

The Health and Safety Program Award was given to Penny Construction for their commitment in making health and safety a priority in the workplace.

The Minister's Award, presented to a company that has demonstrated over time an improved safety record, enhanced product quality, improved training courses and overall company success went to Western Construction of Stephenville Crossing.

Mr. Speaker, and hon. members of the House, I ask you to join with me in congratulating the winners of this year's award for their hard work and dedication to workplace health and safety in our Province.

The above mentioned winners are taking action to create an ongoing "safety culture" in our provincial workplaces. I invite all employers and employees to continue to work with each other and government to achieve a safer, healthier and more productive workplace this year and in years to come.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join with the minister in recognizing the recipients of the health and safety awards throughout the Province. As I said just a few short weeks ago when we spoke in the House during the day of mourning for those who have lost their lives in the workplace, we all have to be vigilant in this Province and in all places of work on making safety a number one priority. Nothing can replace somebody's life to the family and children of that person when they lose their life through meaningless needs because of a lack of safety in the workplace.

I would join with the minister today in asking everybody in the Province to pay more attention and be more vigilant when it comes to occupational health and safety.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, thanks to the minister for the advance copy. I congratulate the recipients of the awards as well. I think it is also important to remember, because most of this document, particularly talking about the companies, mentions only the company. It does not mention the other parties that are involved and the joint committees that are the labour movement and the respective unions. I think it is important that their names and titles be included in anything that goes out talking about health and safety.

We have to remember that it was not employers who gave workers health and safety, it was workers who fought for it and who are continuing to fight today. I think it is important to reflect their names in any document that comes out pertaining to health and safety in the Province.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to speak to members of the House today about the release of a very significant national report.

This past Friday, on May 14, I joined the Federal/Provincial and Territorial Ministers responsible for Social Services in Quebec City to release The National Child Benefit Progress Report: 1999. This report demonstrates that over the past year the National Child Benefit has helped our country make significant strides in addressing the needs and concerns of our country's children.

As I am sure members of the House recall, initiatives for Newfoundland and Labrador under the National Child Benefit were announced in the 1998 Budget. The implementation of these initiatives began in July 1998. With this implementation the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, in partnership with the Government of Canada and other provinces and territories, promised to report regularly to Canadians on its progress.

As we approach the one year anniversary of the National Child Benefit's introduction, this report affirms the positive influence this initiative has had on our social and economic national picture, especially for our children.

The report shows that 2.5 million Canadian children in low-income families have received an increase in income. For Newfoundland and Labrador, the monthly average number of children receiving the NCB supplement is estimated at over 51,000. In addition, parents and children in low-income families have also received added benefits and services from a diverse range of NCB programs, such as family resource centres, youth service networks and improved daycare access. These programs have enabled parents who receive income support to move into jobs while keeping important financial supports for their children. Also, parents who are already working in low-income jobs now get the support they need to stay employed.

During our meeting in Quebec City, ministers responsible for social services also discussed plans for the next phase of the National Child Benefit initiative, which is scheduled to begin in July 1999. I look forward to sharing these initiatives when they are finalized.

In the meantime, I would like to invite everyone present today to take the time to review the National Child Benefit Progress Report. I assure you that the information in this report is important. This and future reports will help Canadians decide what type of social programs work best for families and children.

It gives me, along with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, a feeling of great pride and accomplishment to be able to report to members of the House and the people of the Province that initiatives like the National Child Benefit are contributing to improve lives and better futures for our children. As with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador's Strategic Social Plan, we are continuing to confirm, through such assessments as the Progress Report, that important partnerships between orders of government and communities are not only good ideas, but they are ideas that produce positive results.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of her statement and for a copy of the National Child Benefit Progress Report. The figures in it are very impressive. One that particularly stands out is the child care subsidy program, $1,987,000, but I am wondering why children are still falling through the cracks and why on a daily basis I get calls from people.

One in particular that I remember is about a little boy, and I referenced this in the House of Assembly last week. He was approved by his social worker, by his psychologist, for one-on-one daycare but it was turned down by the department because there was not enough money. So while the monies that are being put in here are obviously helping some people, there are still children falling through the cracks that are caused by systemic fundamental flaws. While I congratulate the minister on the work that has been done, I look forward to all of the children in our Province being able to take advantage of the programs that are announced.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement and a copy of the report. Obviously the expenditure of this large amount of money by the Government of Canada has to have some positive results. I think in this Province the fact that people on social assistance were permitted to keep the benefit of the National Child Benefit - as the result of pressure from the Opposition -, that is important because it helps increase the wages of all people who are on low incomes, including those on social assistance.

There is a long way to go, Mr. Speaker, as I heard last Thursday in Halifax at the House of Commons subcommittee studying family incomes. We need more of this on a universal basis to ensure that families with children in this country are not suffering and the children have poor -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - outcomes as a result of those harsh incomes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was my pleasure to attend a meeting in Ottawa on May 14 with the Council of Ministers Responsible for Transportation and Highway Safety, and I thought I would take a moment to inform hon. members of the important initiatives discussed, particulary as they relate to the Province.

The major topic was the need for a partnership of the provinces and territories with the federal government on a long-term, sustainable highway financing program. Along with provincial counterparts, I endeavoured to impress upon the federal government that a National Highway Program is urgently required. It is required if we are to preserve the current infrastructure; to help the growing economy support social programs; to improve domestic productivity; as well as to enhance international competitiveness.

I informed Mr. Collenette that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador fully supports a National Highway Program. I advised him that there are a number of highway projects that are vital to the economy of our Province including the completion of the Trans-Labrador Highway, further upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway in our Province, and the rehabilitation of many of our regional trunk highways.

I am pleased to say that the majority of ministers called for the Trans-Canada Highway to be free from road tolls. I went to great lengths to stress that tolls on highways in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are having a negative impact and affect on businesses and tourism for our Province and that we want them discontinued.

I was also happy to inform the federal minister that the provincial transportation system for Newfoundland and Labrador is essentially all in compliance with the year 2000 requirements.

At a separate meeting with Mr. Collenette, I did have the opportunity to discuss other serious concerns regarding the Gulf Ferry Service. Mr. Kelvin Parsons, the MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile, which includes Port aux Basques, joined me in these important discussions. I am pleased to say that Mr. Collenette displayed a significant understanding of the concerns that have been raised by all key stakeholders including independent truckers, Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, the Board of Trade, the Chamber of Commerce and the Town of Port aux Basques. Mr. Collenette indicated that Marine Atlantic has both the obligation and mandate to meet traffic offering.

Mr. Collenette indicated that senior management at Marine Atlantic has the opportunity to take appropriate decisions to ensure the capacity during the summer of 1999 and for the foreseeable future is sufficient to meet anticipated demands from truckers and tourists alike.

Our main concern is the need to replace the Atlantic Freighter with a vessel capable of providing the appropriate capacity to meet the traffic offering on the Gulf. We want a multi-purpose vessel that can handle freight demands while also providing quality supplemental passenger services.

Both Mr. Parsons and I informed Mr. Collenette that this government looks forward to an immediate and proactive approach by the senior management of Marine Atlantic to provide this essential additional capacity. Together we advised the minister that the time for action is now and that we cannot and will not tolerate the types of problems that we experienced in the past. We want the federal government to live up the commitments that they made under the Terms of Union.

I am delighted to be able to say that the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities have now joined us in our campaign to display our dissatisfaction with Gulf Ferry Services. The Federation represents the majority of our municipalities and we do indeed appreciate the fact that they, along with the many other stakeholders, are supportive of our attempts to ensure that we get the type of services to which we are entitled.

I, along with my colleague the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, will be writing a detailed letter to Mr. Collenette to apprise him of our concerns and the action we expect Marine Atlantic to take in this important matter. We will not rest until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of our stakeholders.

Mr. Collenette did make a commitment to have a new President and CEO for Marine Atlantic in place by the end of the summer of this year.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: I will certainly make a few comments on this rather long response. I just got a copy of the statement. As I got through the typos I decided to make a few points on it.

First of all, the National Highway Program is desperately needed in this Province right now, especially when it comes to the regional trunk roads in this Province. They certainly need upgrading. I can think of in my area the La Scie Highway, and I am sure every member in this House can think of areas in their district that needs upgrading when it comes to regional trunk roads. We look forward to that.

As far as the highway tolls, every minister should have been in support of what the minister was talking about. We certainly do not agree with tolls on the Trans-Canada Highway, and we hope you made that point strong enough.

As I go through the statement I get to Marine Atlantic, which are the points we raised last week. The minister says that he indicated Marine Atlantic has both the obligation and mandate to meet traffic offering. It is a right in this Province. As the minister pointed out last week, we have been treated as second-class citizens in this Province since Confederation when it comes to having the Marine Atlantic service to this Province. It is long overdue.

Also, if he is going to meet the commitment by the federal government - that is the point we have to raise here, and that is what the minister has to keep hammering home. Yes, municipalities are on the side. Yes, every group I can think off is on side. Yes, I can think of every Newfoundland and Labradorians who says that it is long overdue. It is our Trans-Canada, it is our link, it is in the Terms of Union, as the minister has pointed out already.

I am going to make sure, and this party will make sure, that the groups we meet with in the coming weeks and months are going to make sure the government doesn't drop the ball this time so we wait for another two, three or four more years before we have another trip back to Ottawa to talk about the marine services of this Province. We are going to make sure it is talked about in the coming weeks and months, so we can see a decent service restored to this Province that should have been there a long time ago.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, what a difference a meeting makes, I say to the minister and members opposite. Last week we were second-class citizens in Confederation and we were not going to take it any more. He goes up and has a meeting and it is all rosy and lightness.

We pointed out that we needed this and that, and we are going to get a new president and CEO of Marine Atlantic. He did not say where he was going to live, whether he was going to stay in Moncton like the last one, and he did not say what he was going to do, but he said he had the power to take action.

I think he praised the Federation of Municipalities for coming on board his campaign. I think it was probably the other way around, that the Federation of Municipalities and others in this Province are demanding action. The government is starting to listen. I hope they do not forget about it next week and go back to being second-class citizens again without a peep out of them.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What a difference two weeks makes in this Legislature. Two weeks ago on education, under questioning from the critic, the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne, the Minister of Education stands in the House and says: We are listening, but I want to be shown where the impact is on program cuts. It is one thing to say it. What we are saying now is show us.

We spent the last two weeks meeting with school administrators, school councils, parents, principals. Then I read in the weekend paper: I may have said I am looking for examples, and if you want to bring them forward by all means, but that does not necessarily mean I have to listen to them.

Is it any wonder people are frustrated, concerned and upset, because of the handing by this government and this minister with respect to program cuts as it relates to teacher allotment? My question is this. Which is it? Are you going to take into account and listen to the very people who you put in place and enshrined in legislation under the new schools act, or are you going to continue to ignore the reality that is facing this Province and this government, particularly in rural Newfoundland, as it relates to the type of programming we want to offer all of our children in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are listening very intently to representations that are being made in all seriousness by the official representatives of the school board and their chief staff members, being the directors.

For those who were in the Legislature and understood the full context of the minister's statement, she certainly indicated that all of us on this side have some difficulty in taking seriously the representations being made at some of these public meetings in the appropriately called `road show,' because it is a nice show but I do not know what it will accomplish.

It is difficult to take it seriously when the chief proponent and speaker at the meeting in Port aux Basques is the vice-president of the PC association and the campaign manager for the PC candidate in the last election.

In Stephenville, the chief proponent and speaker at the public Progressive Conservative meeting, not a neutral forum organized by any arm's length group and so on, was the past president of the teachers' union, whose job it is to keep jobs for teachers at all expense.

In Corner Brook, one of the chief representatives at the meeting was a person who just ran for the office of vice-president of the Teachers' Association for Newfoundland and Labrador, whose job at every opportunity is to try to save teacher jobs - regardless.

In Grand Falls-Windsor, as well again, one of the main people who was speaking out on behalf of special needs students, a very important and very interested parent but, in a meeting organized by the Progressive Conservatives, one of the main people speaking out - aside from my brother, again - was the president of the PC Association for Grand Falls-Buchans.

Everybody on this side has quite a bit of difficulty in terms of taking seriously those representations. We will take completely seriously the representations made to the Ministry of Education by the official school board representatives, by the directors of education, by the administrators when they deal with the officials in the Department of Education; and, quite frankly, while it may be a nice road show, we hope you enjoy the road show because we will not be paying an awful lot of attention -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to finish his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - to the representations made by politically charged partisan representations.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Parents, teachers, school councils, administrators, executive directors and board officials that met with, as the minister put it, the road show - at least the road show is better than no show, I say to the minister; no show on behalf of this government when it is confronted with the reality, when it is confronted with facts. On the one hand, they ask for it. When it is given to them, what is the response? Attack the messenger; attack those who took the time to show up to public meetings; attack those who took the time to stand up for the children in this Province. That is the minister's response, and it is not type of response that will fly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the minister this: In your former life as Minister of Education, in you former role as Minister of Education, one of the major selling points, Sir, that you took on your road show across the Province at that time for school reform was the establishment of school councils which would have a greater say in the education system, particularly since these school councils are made up of local teachers, parents, and even student representatives.

Minister, why are you saying now that the very people that you put in place, that one of the very pillars of reform that you brought across the Province on your road show to sell, that important piece of legislation, why is it now so convenient for you and your government to say: What they have to say really does not matter. Why, Minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate an opportunity again maybe to educate the Leader of the Opposition as to the role of the school councils, which is critically important. School councils, by legislation passed by everybody in this House of Assembly, unanimous passage, are put in place because they know the local circumstance probably better than any of us do, and they are designed to give advice to the local school board - to the local school board.

I will repeat it one more time: To give advice to the local school board, because the local school board is in charge of the allocation of teachers to every school in Newfoundland and Labrador except for those that are designated as Small Necessarily Existent Schools; and those schools, Mr. Speaker, are staffed directly by the Ministry of Education.

We are not hearing any complaints about schools that are staffed directly under the control of the Ministry of Education. We are hearing complaints about choices that are being made with the teachers who are available in the schools in which the staffing is decided by the local school board. So the Ministry of Education is asking the local school board, through its director of education, its chief staff person, to explain the choices that have been made locally to the government through the Department of Education so we can have a full understanding as to whether they had other choices or not that they could have considered. Because, if they want the government to act - and this is the convenience for the Opposition. They passed a piece of legislation unanimously with everybody in the Legislature in which they acknowledged that the right people to do assignments of teachers, the right people to make those choices, are the locally elected school boards, but when anybody in any part of the Province does not like a decision made by other elected officials, being the school boards, the Opposition says: Oh, my, isn't that shocking?

The Minister of Education should have done that when they passed a piece of legislation saying that the school boards have the right, the responsibility and the obligation to do it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: One final point with respect to the question, Mr. Speaker. The school councils for Newfoundland and Labrador have a provincial body which meets regularly with the Minister of Education. That is the contact between school councils and the Ministry of Education. I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition - in his great dream of some day maybe ever becoming the Premier of the Province - would not suggest that any Minister of Education or Premier of the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - would be in a position ever to meet with a school council from almost 400 individual schools.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: They are there to advise the school boards, the school boards meet with the department -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - and the provincial representatives meet with the department as well.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, if you want to hear from people, first of all you have to sit down, close your mouth, open your ears and listen. This government has not been able to do that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Now, I am going to take the minister at face value. I am going to take his questions of me at face value and I will ask him this question: Prior to the announcement of the Budget, prior to teacher allotments being made, District 5 met with your government and said that if you cut more than twelve teachers it will have a severe and adverse impact on programming.

Government was told up front then, if you acknowledge - if we take from what he is saying that we meet with the appropriate officials, the school boards themselves, then why was it, Minister, that in District 5 - when, according to your definition of who you should be talking to - the board met with government, told them that if you cut more than twelve teachers there would be a serious, adverse and negative impact on programming, why was it that you and your government went ahead anyway and cut thirty in that school board? Answer that question!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not aware of the details of the meeting that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: You are not suggesting now that I was at the meeting? I have not been the Minister of Education for some months.

I am not aware again, Mr. Speaker, of the details of such a meeting and whether or not that proposition was actually put forward, but I can tell you quite clearly that even if it was, one of the things that would have happened - which is what is happening now - is that the minister, through officials in the department, would have then gone out and said: Okay, based on you making that representation, what plans have you made? Are there other consolidations that you might be considering or could consider? Have you looked at a full range of options for the board? Or are you just saying to us, in one meeting with the Department of Education, that if you leave everything the way it is now, and if you take these teachers, this could happen? Are there other options?

The exploration that is occurring now is, officials of the Department of Education, meeting with the school boards, the officials that they want to assign to it, one on one, identifying and making sure that every conceivable option that was available to the school boards has been explored, has been considered by the boards and has been deemed to be possible or not possible to accomplish for the next school year. If, at the end of that whole consultation, the minister and the department is convinced that what was just said, or some version of that, will occur, then the minister has already said that there will be some corrective measures taken.

Again, Mr. Speaker, there is a real consultation going on between the Department of Education and the school boards, and there is another road show going on for the political `aggrandizement' of the members of the Opposition.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will give another example and I will use his definition of the appropriate people to speak to with respect to programming cuts.

District 3: The director of District 3 told this government, again prior to the budgetary process - so your argument holds no water, Minister, none whatsoever - and told the department that if cuts went ahead to the extent that were being proposed, it would have a severe and adverse impact on programming in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly in District 3.

The question that you must answer, because you did not answer the last one so I will give you an opportunity to answer this one: Why was it that you ignored their advice - according to your definition, the appropriate people - and went ahead and cut teachers to the point where programs would have to be axed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition can try as he might to suggest that there are things that are going to happen that are extremely detrimental to the education system. They will not happen because if there are instances identified through the consultation that is occurring legitimately between the Department of Education and the school boards, any corrective measures to make sure that dire negative impacts do not occur will be taken.

The fact of the matter is again that the representations generally made - and I was not at either of the meetings that he referenced had occurred, but most likely I can surmise because they were similar to representations made the year before when I was the Minister of Education - boards did come to us and say: If the government proceeds with the existing formulas, and if the government reduces the teachers that the formulas - because they know what the formulas are and they could project what the loses would be in their districts - then these impacts would occur.

What, in fact, the government did was to again, for the second year in a row, fundamentally throw out the formulas and reinstate over one-half of the teaching units that the school boards themselves would have been projecting that they were likely to lose. If they were in, prior to the budget, saying, "You cannot take out these teachers", they would have been guesstimating on the only information they had, that there would have been 440 or 450 teachers being pulled out of the classrooms of Newfoundland and Labrador. That did not happen. Over 200 were reinstated.

Many of the boards who, two or three months ago, prior to the budget, would have been saying this might happen, are now very thankfully, like the board in St. John's, saying, that is not going to happen; we are going to have improved program options.

We might hear the case where there are some reductions which would be corrected by the department, but we are not hearing at the road show examples of where last year, for the first time in history, some schools had music programs that they had never had, access to additional programs that they had never had in history -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - and likely to happen again this year coming up, except in a few instances that will be corrected by the Department of Education.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: What a difference two weeks makes. Two weeks ago in this House while you were sitting here, I say to the minister, the Minister of Education stood and said about teacher allotments: that if it is happening, it is certainly not because of any direction this government is taking, referencing cuts to programs.

It is obvious today that the former Education Minister, as well as the Education Minister in government, are completely unaware of the realities throughout the Province. Parents are upset. Education directors have advised government - whether you would like to spin out there that they have not - they have advised you and your government prior to the budget being brought down in this House.

All you are going through is a public relations exercise to say that we are now consulting. The horse has left the barn, Minister; he is out. The reality is that you were consulted, you were given the information, and you ignored it.

Let me ask you this: In view of the fact, would it not be advisable and would it not be in the best interest of everybody in this Province, that you immediately set up a task force chaired by somebody like Dr. Leslie Harris, independent, arm's length, to report back to this House within a thirty-day period that would clearly indicate in a public way, not just to Cabinet but for all of us to see, what the impact of teacher allocation this year will have on programs? Would that not be the best and most appropriate way to restore some public confidence in your misadministration and mismanagement of the secondary school system in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What a difference two weeks makes. I agree that two weeks ago the solution, as the Official Opposition saw it, to restore public confidence was to establish a road show.

I think that we are seeing now - we hope they are enjoying the road show and instilling great confidence in the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, out there telling them what they would do if they were the government.

This particular government can very proudly stand on its record that for the second year in a row we have ignored the formulas that the Opposition put in place when they were the government. We have reinstated over 200 additional units last year. We have reinstated over 200 additional units again this year. There has been a commitment given that in the meaningful discussions that will occur, the non-political discussions, the absolutely non-political discussions that will occur between the Department of Education which has a responsibility, and the directors of education for the school boards who have a responsibility, that if there are some problems they will be corrected. You cannot have any better commitment than that, and that is exactly the commitment the government has given.

In the meantime, I expect that next the Opposition might be up like they were last year saying: Regardless of the fact that the student population has changed from 170,000 down to less than 95,000, maybe we should have a moratorium on teacher losses and that we should have the same number of teachers every single year regardless; if 50,000 students leave, you should not take any teachers out of the system.

It is a difficult issue. It is going through what has become a bit of the spring ritual of sorting it out with school boards and with the department. It will be sorted out with the best interest of the students and their programming in mind. We do not see any particular reason to try to give creditability to a totally credible process between officials of the department and officials of the school board.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to answer.

MR. GRIMES: Unless he is suggesting that we should not believe what we are being told by the directors of education, then we fully believe what they will tell us. We will take the necessary corrective measures. We do not see a need for another show to go ahead in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

Thanks be to God, at least some members in this Legislature are exercising some leadership to give the public of this Province an opportunity, in a public way, to talk about what is happening particularly in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am not suggesting a moratorium; that is not what I am suggesting at all. In view of the fact that in the last several weeks this government has become so fond of our policy manual in terms of mimicking tax cuts, talking about accountability, here is what I am suggesting to the minister: On page 10, with respect to secondary education, we recommended during the provincial election that we would, if we were government, implement a small schools policy that would be sensitive to the needs of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, recognizing the reality of what is taking place.

If the minister is looking for a suggestion, go to page 10 - you have looked at other pages - and implement what we told you then: a small schools policy that would look at directly -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

- attacking the problem that is facing, in particular, the schools in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Is that the type of commitment this government is prepared to make today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was pleased, when I did scan the document briefly for some amusing late nighttime reading during the last election, that I saw that they did manage to take a policy on small schools and try to put into their platform an issue that this government dealt with a year ago.

In fact, for the first time in the history of the Province, in the school year which is now drawing close to completion, there are, by law, Small Necessarily Existent Schools in this Province in which the school boards have no flexibility to remove any teachers at any point in time. By law, they are entitled to an absolute guarantee to a program that at the secondary level will make sure that every student that graduates in Newfoundland and Labrador meets the requirements for post-secondary entrance.

All of those things, not at discretion, not regulation, not policy, but by law in the Schools Act. It was nice to see that the Opposition thought it was such a good idea that they put it in their platform, that they would also do it since it was already the law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we are not interested in the shows and the games. We are taking very seriously a discussion between the directors of education - who we believe have total creditability - the Department of Education, and any areas where there are difficulties will be addressed. We do not need more road shows to deal with this very serious issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minister of Finance. Last week, both the Minister of Finance and the Premier raised the issue of provincial taxation and gave some wishy-washy statements of general intent or, some might say, a statement that mirrored the PC policies he so vehemently decried in the election just a few months ago.

Of course we were not surprised at that because we believe these policies would be good for Newfoundland and Labrador. We are confident, I say to the minister, even if it makes a copycat out of yourself and the Premier.

Your statements last week, of course, called for a comprehensive review of taxation. We were wondering if you can be a little more definitive on this particular commitment than your commitment to the nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to ask the minister why you will not make commitments on the reduction of personal income tax more definitive, why you are not more specific, and why that commitment was not included in the March Budget?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Justice.

MR. DICKS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The reason we want to study it a little bit is that we do not want to make a rather foolish commitment, as did the Opposition party to refuse taxes and lose $800 million in the process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The commitments in this booklet were worth $340 million, and as usual inflation sets in. I say to the minister that we know that last week's statements by the minister and the Premier -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We know last week's statements were designed to deflect attention away from the education issues and that obviously did not work. In fact, by the end of the week the Premier was saying: I might resign, I might leave, and all that kind of thing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. H. HODDER: That did not work either because the issue on education is still there. I ask the minister: Will he today tell the House how long it is going to take to reduce our personal income taxes to the Canadian average, and how long it would take before we in this Province on personal income taxes are on a par with other provinces in Atlantic Canada?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Justice.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The comments last week were not meant to deflect attention from the education discussions but to focus them. It is very easy for members opposite to advocate money for health care, money for education, but frankly, there are choices to be made. If you give everybody everything they want then you simply will not be able to move to a point where you can reduce taxes.

If there is one area that this Province is clearly falling behind in, and there are very few that we are not advancing, it is in the area of tax reductions. For many years I have said in this House, I have said in our Estimates hearings, that we have to move to the point of tax reductions. We have taken it on the corporate sector, we have taken it on the payroll sector, and we intend to take it on the personal income tax side.

We intend to do, as I said in the response to his first question, this in a thorough way after proper analysis, and not in the heat and confusion of a campaign that is going wrong, that is being lost, to trot out an ill-conceived, poorly thought out tax reduction that the Province simply cannot afford. What we will do we will do in a measured and thoughtful way, and I expect we will do it at about the time of the next budget.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that personal income tax is but one area of taxation where Newfoundland and Labrador has the highest taxation rates in Canada. I want to ask the minister: Is he considering reducing taxes in other areas? For example, the gasoline taxes, the elimination of the very regressive payroll taxes, et cetera. I want to ask the minister: When can we expect to have some action on the payroll tax and on the other high taxes like the gasoline tax?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Justice.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Province has been very active in the whole area of tax policy. As hon. members well know, we took the initiative in rationalizing the Province's retail sales taxes, and the Speaker knows they are currently at the national rate. We intend to do the same thing in other areas. We have taken measures on the payroll tax. All in good time, and all when the economy can afford it, because, without making willy-nilly promises, what we have to do is ensure that there is a balance between the services people want and expect and are prepared to pay for, and the taxes that will raise revenue to do so.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services. In a report entitled, Shifting the Focus: Community Discussions on Child Sexual Abuse, published by the Community Services Council in February 1997, statistics received from the then-Department of Social Services showed that the total incidents of child abuse for 1995-1996 were 4,810. Of this amount, 896 were sexual abuse, and of those 896 incidents, 257 occurred within the immediate families.

Can the minister please tell the House today: What are the statistics for the subsequent years and what are the statistics today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, with respect to those specific statistics, I would have to get them. As the member knows, most of these cases are reported to the police as opposed to my department. The ones I am made aware of are the ones that are generally to children who are under the care of my department. With respect to those made to the RNC or the RCMP, I do not have a record of those reported cases.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that these statistics came out of the then-Department of Social Services which I think is now - the Community Services part of that is in the minister's department. I suggest that the minister should have a copy of those statistics.

One of the major findings of this report is that children continue to be at risk of sexual abuse, and when abuse is reported they receive intermittent and inconsistent help. Will the minister now tell this House what she has done to improve the situation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to answer the question, because unlike the people opposite who were living with a piece of legislation that was twenty-five years old, this government put forward a new piece of legislation last fall entitled the Child, Youth and Family Services Act that is very much focused on prevention and early intervention.

I always remember my first day in the Department of Social Services, when the outgoing deputy - who now works as a policy analyst for the PC Party - said to me how concerned he was about the state of children in this Province, and if there was one area he had failed in, it was in trying to do something about child care and child welfare.

So I am very delighted to say that my new deputy at that time, as well as myself, began, right away, immediately, a three-year undertaking to finally, after twenty-five years, change the child welfare legislation in this Province, which we put in place last fall. We are very proud of it. It is one that is focused on our Strategic Social Plan, one that is focused on prevention and early intervention. We now lead the country in our legislation, not only in that component but in our social audit. So we are very proud and pleased to have moved in such a progressive way, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have two comments: One is that the mess you inherited was from your own government, and if you are so concerned, why don't you have the statistics that came from the Department of Social Services, which you inherited, which is your department?

As we know, social workers are burning out and the turnover from case to case is alarming. It results in no continuity for children and their families. What has the minister done to date, and what are her plans to address this problem in the future? In other words, what is the caseload of a social worker in child protection?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I never at any point said - and I think it is important for the record - that I would not put forward the information on the statistics. I said that we do not have all of the information that were referred to all the various parties, namely the RNC and the RCMP. I have no difficulty in identifying and reporting, as the member already knows, any statistics within my department, but I am not aware of the number of cases that are reported to the RCMP nor the RNC.

With respect to workload, the caseload particularly, the member opposite knows - if she has spoken to any social workers recently, and I am sure she has - we all know it is not the number of cases that is important. It is the quality and quantity of that particular case. Sometimes we have a social worker with only two or three cases, and it is more time consuming than some that have a caseload of twenty. It would depend on the in-depth nature of the particular case.

Some of the children that I know are under care and, at the outset, require a lot more in-depth care, particularly as we move to a focus of prevention and early intervention from one of the past practice of apprehension. It depends on, as I said, the in-depth caseload as opposed to strict numbers. Any social worker out there would totally agree with the whole content and quality of the workload as opposed to numbers only, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that tomorrow - and I believe tomorrow is going to be now - I shall move that a further estimate of expenditure related to a contingency reserve in the amount of $30 million be referred to the Committee of Supply.

I just spoke to both parties opposite and I think we are ready to put that question, by leave, immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question?

All those in favour of the motion, `aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Against.

I declare the motion carried.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I just want to advise the Opposition that Wednesday is Private Members' Day for us, and that under Notices of Motion - we have done this before - we will be moving a motion a little later on this afternoon to give notice of that motion for Wednesday.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition to the House of Assembly. The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland, in legislative session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland;

WHEREAS Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista has not been upgraded since it was paved approximately twenty-five years ago; and

WHEREAS this section of Route 235 is in such a terrible condition that vehicles are being damaged, including the school buses serving school in the area, and schoolchildren are finding their daily trips over the road very difficult;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to upgrade and pave the five kilometres of Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, this is another petition being brought forward in support of the students attending Matthew Elementary and Discovery Collegiate. It is a petition in support of public meetings that the parents have held in Newmans Cove with representation from Bonavista, Upper Amherst Cove, Middle Amherst Cove, Lower Amherst Cove, Birchy Cove, and Newmans Cove to bring forward their concerns on the condition and state of this section of roadway leading from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

This particular roadway measures approximately five kilometres. Two-and-one-half kilometres of this roadway is in a terrible shape. What the residents are asking is for the government to look at upgrading and paving this particular section of Route 235. Their plea is that if there is not enough money to upgrade the whole section of the five kilometres, then maybe the worst two-and-one-half kilometres going around the pond - a pond known as Seal Cove Pond - could probably be upgraded, paved and brought to an acceptable standard for today's transportation.

Those people in Upper Amherst Cove, Middle Amherst Cove, Birchy Cove, and Newmans Cove have given up their schools in the past. They have agreed for their students to be transported by bus over this section of roadway, five days a week, in the morning and back again in the evening. All they are asking for is a simple road so that their children might be able to travel with some degree of comfort and safety.

I have driven over the road many times myself. The petition is real, the concern is real. The people who are presenting the petitions are responsible. They do not want to go out and block that particular section of roadway. They do not want to interfere with traffic travelling to Bonavista, for people going to work, students going to school, transport trucks delivering goods. They do not want to interfere and stop anybody. What they have decided to do is that they would present petitions to the House, that I would present on their behalf, and they would hand out letters to get people to support them on their way to and from Bonavista.

I say to the minister that it is shameful when you have to come out and beg today to have a section of roadway upgraded so students can travel to and from school with some degree of safety and comfort. It is terrible and degrading to have to do it.

They are not asking that the roadway be lighted. They are not asking that you put in sidewalks so that they might go out and walk with some degree of safety. All they are asking for is a simple upgrading of two-and-one-half kilometres of a double-lane highway going north and south, two lanes, so that the students might be able to travel with some degree of safety, some degree of comfort, in their fourteen-year-old school buses, some of them, to get to and from school.

I have had representation from the trucking companies that travel this particular route on a daily basis. In fact, the bus operators have called and said: Would you see if you can do something with that section of roadway? We cannot keep the springs in our bus. We cannot keep the repairs done to our bus.

I can understand what the students are facing. I can understand what the students are going through by having to sit on that bus every day and travel those five kilometres.

If you go out to the communities of Upper Amherst Cove, Newmans Cove and Birchy Cove, you will find that the pavement through their communities have deteriorated to a condition that it should have been replaced fifteen years ago.

The people are saying that we are willing to put up with the bad roads through our community. We are willing to put up with having to contend with potholes, and the sides of the pavement broken away. We are willing to put up with all that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - as long as we could have a simple road to drive over that is safe for our students on the main highway leading into Bonavista. That is their plea. That is, hence, the reason for presenting this petition.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 4. I move first reading.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Is there somebody else who wants to speak to the petition? The Speaker called Orders of the Day.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair did not see anybody standing.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Go ahead?

Motion 4.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I have to get you straightened away on that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) stand in the way of a very supportive constituent from the District of Kilbride.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: I am very seriously considering moving.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 4.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) let it be known for the public record that I will be the first one to help.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will put it at the first opportunity.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Denturists Act", carried. (Bill 10)

On motion, Bill 10 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Order 2, Committee of Supply.

MR. SPEAKER: On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole -

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before you get to that, I want to say to hon. gentlemen opposite that the continency reserve is now moved up into the number of hours that we have available for those three heads. In other words, if we had twelve hours for that head in committee here, that is now moved up. It is not part of the concurrence debate; it is part of this debate. That is the same as it has always been.

Mr. Speaker, Order 2.

MR. SPEAKER: On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Smith): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few questions for the President of Treasury Board, under Executive Council. I see her waving over there. She is looking forward to my questions, as she always does, as do ministers opposite.

On page 23, under Communications and Consultation, 2.5.01, it says, "Appropriations provide for the promotion of public awareness of Provincial Government programs, policies and services."

When I read that, I could not believe what I was reading. The first thing that jumped to my mind, of course, were the nurses. Do we all remember the day that the nurses went on strike? The very same day there was full-page ad in the paper trying to say what the nurses were doing, the wrongs of the nurses and what have you. In this very House of Assembly, on the same day, and in the media that evening, the Premier was on talking about what a shock it was that the nurses had gone on strike. Yet, the very day they went on strike there was a big ad in the paper.

How much money was spent on those ads? Maybe $1,000 a crack, $2,000 a crack. Day after day we saw those ads, big black and white letters on the weekend paper. We are wondering if that money came out of this.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon? That is page 23, 2.5.01, Communications and Consultation, the whole block. It says, "Appropriations provide for the promotion of public awareness of Provincial Government programs, policies and services."

I made a note, as I said earlier, in the campaign against the nurses we had radio and print. Also, I was quite surprised on the weekend when I heard that we have another campaign starting very soon. The Minister of Mines and Energy is going to be headlong into this campaign. It is going to be starting very soon, and we do not know how much money is going to be spent on it, but we saw the Premier, and we heard him say that he has one big deal to make and then his time is up. His political end is near - provincially.

What I remember during the election, an interviewer on CBC Television, in the evening, put the question quite blank to the Premier: Will you be around for the next election? What did he say? Yes, he would be, he would be around for the next election. Now, we can see him going mid-summer, next fall, next spring, certainly no longer than a year-and-a-half down the road. Who are we going to see lined up?

We saw the Minister of Fisheries today - I had to make a comment to him - saying that if you want to be Premier of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador you are going to have to start acting like it; because he is going to be the first one out the door. The Minister of Fisheries is going to be the first one out the door. Then, right behind him - I should correct myself here. The Minister of Fisheries is going to be the first one out the door if he has the nerve to run. The last time we saw him calling a news conference to say that he wasn't going to run. So, he may not be the first one out the door. The first one out of the gate, I thought - but he may call an election.

The Minister of Mines and Energy has his eye on it. I thought that he was the front-runner. It is going to cost this Province in the near future. We will not see five years before an election. We will not see four years before an election. We will be lucky if we see three years, maybe less than three years, like the previous one.

The Minister of Mines and Energy is going to be out of the gate. I thought he had a chance to take the leadership, but the way he treated the nurses here in this House of Assembly, and the mess he has made out of the education system, he is after hurting himself, dearly hurting himself.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, yourself, the Minister of Mines and Energy.

The Minister of Finance - I am on this topic, Mr. Chairman, because we are under revenues and how much money we are going to be spending. I can see an election coming sooner rather than later. We have the Minister of Finance -

AN HON. MEMBER: An election? We had an election a couple of months ago.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know. We had the Premier two or three months ago during the election saying he would be here for the next election. So now we are going to see, in a year, fourteen months - as soon as he can qualify for his provincial pension, he's gone, just like that. Another fourteen or fifteen months and he is out of here, and then within a year after that you will see an election.

(Inaudible) a new fellow come in, but I am going to get to who is going to be the next premier. He is only going to be premier for less than a year. The Minister of Mines and Energy is going to be in the race, the Minister of Finance is going to be in the race. I thought the Minister of Tourism would be but I am starting to have second thoughts on that. He will not even be running. A number of ministers on that side will not even be running. The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, yes. I will get to the backbenchers.

So we have the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister of Finance. We have the Government House Leader. No, he will not have a chance, not at all.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Not yet. I will get to that. I am getting to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education. They are forthcoming.

I thought the Minister of Health, up until three to five months ago had a shot at the leadership, because we all knew that the present Premier would not be around for the next election. I thought that she would have a chance but she is after hurting herself with respect to health care in the Province. It is a bad position to be in and she showed a lack of concern, I suppose, or - what is the right word? Not sympathy, either. Compassion! That's the word, a lack of compassion for the nurses in the Province. So she is after hurting herself. She will not win it.

We have the Minister of Education who now has her head buried in the sand with respect to education in the Province. The party on that side will not even look at her. They will not look at her because they know she will not have a chance to lead them to the gold ring. They are not going to have a chance. So those is basically the ministers that would be involved after the leadership.

I am not sure about the Minister of Human Resources. She may have a chance. She probably might have a chance. The President of Treasury Board is too new, not now. Now we have the backbenchers.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack, we have lots of time.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, you don't. You have approximately a year-and-a-half maximum to make your case to the people on that side of the House.

Now we have the backbenchers, Mr. Chairman. So we have nobody there yet who is going to lead this party to another victory, no one in the ministers. We have the Member for Humber East who was on the radio the other day contradicting the Minister of Education and the Premier. I don't think that members on that side of the House would want an individual who sandbags the Premier and who sandbags -

AN HON. MEMBER: Who did that?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Humber East. They do not want him, they are not going to support him, so he is gone. We have the Member for Bellevue who is up there, who really does not know if he is coming or going with respect to certain things, certain roads in the Province. He got up and presented a petition in this House the other day and he did such a bad job of it that ever since then he has been up and down like a yo-yo trying to make up for it. He is not going to be able to be counted on.

AN HON. MEMBER: I must say, he (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Who? I have to say, though, the other day when he was up he was really passionate. He was. I was going to make a comment about his health but I thought he would take it the wrong way. I had real concerns. I really did have concerns about him. I did not agree with what he was saying, but I am just talking about the way he said it. He had some passion.

I forgot about the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island would love to be premier but I am not sure he is going to win his seat the next time around. I do not think that he is going to be in the contention for it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If you were given to worry, I will say to you not to worry about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was your majority?

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is worrying about me winning. I will tell him, just in case he doesn't know, I only won by as many votes as my opponent got, over 2,000. I say he got a fair shot. I am going to work even harder -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, what was yours, 200, 150 votes? Three hundred and fifty votes. Don't you worry about me, worry about yourself, I say to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and you should worry.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: You (inaudible). I just have to comment on this. The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island said I was going around Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove saying I was related to him. There is one family down there who came to me and said: Jack, we know we have this relation in the House of Assembly, he is Liberal, but you need not worry about him. We are voting for you, the man, the Tory.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: They said: We see him once every ten years, and we will not be supporting him.

Just think about this, Mr. Chairman. We have a situation where we had an election three months ago. We had the Premier on CBC television saying he is going to be there for the next election. The ink on the Budget is not even dry and they are talking about taking our taxation policy and -

CHAIR (Oldford): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave.

CHAIR: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: They are taking our taxation policy right out of our Blue Book, and now they are looking at the small school policies, taken right out of our Blue Book. In the next election what is going to happen is people are going to say: Listen here, what is going on in this Province today? Everything that the PCs said they were going to do the Liberals are doing, and everything the Liberals said they were going to do, they are not doing, so we might as well vote for the Tories.

We will form the next government, no ifs, ands or buts about it. It does not matter who they bring in. I was trying to figure out who would be their white knight. Years ago they had a white knight, Mr. Jamieson. He lost. In 1996 the white knight was Mr. Tobin, the present Premier. Now we are going to ask: Who is going to be their white knight now? I do not see anybody out there, do you? It is going to have to be someone from outside. I just went through that crowd over there. No one there can lead them to a win in the next election. It has to be somebody from outside. Who can it be? I honestly do not know. Will it be the Member for Labrador, Mr. O'Brien? I do not think so. He is after opposing the government. Will it be the federal member? What is his name?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gerry Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will it be Gerry Byrne? I do not think so. He is not related to me, thank God.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: One more minute what?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, is there?

It will not be Gerry Byrne, I will say to you. Who is it going to be?

AN HON. MEMBER: George Baker.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will it be George Baker?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Now we are getting somewhere. Now we are talking about him going into Cabinet. Are they trying to set him up, to give him some profile, to show that he can be in agreement with his party, that he will not buck his party all the time?

Is it going to be Mr. Baker? That leaves this fact. When the Premier came back we saw members on that side - the Minister of Mines and Energy backed off. We saw the Minister of Fisheries call a conference to say that he did not have the nerve to run because of the white knight coming back. Will the Ministers of Fisheries, Finance, Mines and Energy, Health and Human Resources be afraid to run? Will they be afraid to run? They are going to be afraid to run. They are not going to have the nerve.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Conception Bay East is out of the picture already, Mr. Chairman.

We are in for another $3 million or $4 million - how much does it cost to run an election? Three million dollars, $5 million?

AN HON. MEMBER: Three-and-one-half million dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Three-and-one-half million dollars. This will come out of the money that we are discussing now, under the Estimates here with the Budget. This amazes me, I have to say. No wonder politicians are held in such low esteem out there in the public. We saw the Premier of this Province on CBC during the election, interviewed by Doug Letto, and he put the question right to him: Will you be here for the next election? He said, yes. He looked straight in his face and said yes, he would be here. I could not believe my ears. No wonder -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I have not recognized the Member for Bellevue, but leave has been withdrawn for the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. BARRETT: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. Member for Bellevue.

MR. BARRETT: The Member for Cape St. Francis is saying that the Premier looked the camera in the eye and said that he would be here for the next provincial election. There is nothing wrong with that particular statement. I would image the Premier will be here in the Province for the next provincial election. So, I do not know what the member is talking about.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

MR. J. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: On a new point of order, the hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think, Mr. Chairman, what was clearly understood when I was saying that is that the Premier certainly gave the indication and said that he would be around to lead this party in the next election, as Premier. That is what he was saying. In the meantime, while I am on my feet, I would like to know who withdrew leave.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

CHAIR: Order, please!

I recognized the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I stand today to say a few words on Executive Council.

AN HON. MEMBER: He does not even know what he is talking about.

MR. FITZGERALD: I know what I am talking about, I say to the member. I have it opened here.

Mr. Chairman, this last two days since this House sat - we sat on Thursday. The House began at 2:00 p.m., so I would assume we probably got into Orders of the Day around 3:00 p.m., 3:06 p.m., or 3:07 p.m.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: At 3:06 p.m., and we went until 10:00 p.m. On Friday, we started at 9:00 a.m. and went from probably 9:35 a.m. or 9:38 a.m. until 12:00 noon, and up until now there have been two people on this side of the House who have spoken. There have been two people who have stood here and carried the debate for however many hours that is.

The Member for Placentia & St. Mary's got up and talked, and made a lot of sense. He gave the government a real history lesson. He went back and talked about the way things were, how far we have come, how far we have regressed, and made a lot of sense in what he was saying.

Then we had the Member for Cape St. Francis, who always makes sense. He stood in this House and talked. I do not know but the member can almost see in the future. He talked about the things that are going to happen and how they unfolded, and the negativity that was brought to bear on the people of this Province by the government opposite. He talked about the government's effort in trying to privatize hydro. When people started calling government members, started calling Open Line shows, coming in here night time, sitting in the gallery, pleading with the government, to say: We do not want this to happen, Mr. Premier. We do not want Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro privatized. Finally, the government had to relent and change their mind.

We saw the same thing happening when the former Premier appointed Dr. Doug House to bring about the famous income support program. They did the big selling job across the Province. The Minister of Mines and Energy wants to talk about a road show. I can tell you that was a road show, when they travelled across the Province trying to sell the income support program.

AN HON. MEMBER: It was a good idea.

MR. FITZGERALD: It was not a good idea, I say to the member. There were some good points with it; there is no doubt about that. I am not so sure it is such a good idea when you go out and tell a family in rural Newfoundland and Labrador that the mother's or the father's income is going to judged on what the son or daughter makes out in Hibernia or up in Alberta, that it was such a good idea.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, that was not true.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it was true. It was a family income and it was all based on the income that was coming into that household.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, you have it wrong.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I do not have it wrong, I say to the member.

Mr. Chairman, the Member for Bellevue is right; there were some good points about it. It was going to take the minimum wage and raise it up to a minimum income. It was almost like a guaranteed income, if you would, but it would have been very negative on the other end. One part of it far outweighed - I think it was too big of a change to allow the lower end of the income support program to be effective and to work.

There is no way that people would accept it. It should not have been a family income; it should have been an individual income. Maybe it would have been a positive thing.

When you see what is happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador today, it is nothing short of shameful. I am not so sure that we have progressed very far. We have brought about the new Department of Development and Rural Renewal, and the Government House Leader heads up that particular department. He, in turn, or his predecessor, appointed the RED boards, where they went out - and all it was, was a glorification of other boards that already existed.

First, it was rural development, if you recall. We went out and formed rural development boards. We said: Here is a group of people we are going to put in place. We are going to allow local people to elect them and we are going to allow local people to give them direction, because who knows better what is good for Bellevue or what is good for Bonavista than the people who live in Bellevue or the people who live in Bonavista? - an excellent idea.

What did we do? We went out and elected the boards, and we almost made them go out selling tickets in order to support themselves. In fact, many of those boards were given something like $35,000 or $43,000.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was that?

MR. FITZGERALD: Those rural development boards.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-six five.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thirty six thousand and five hundred dollars a year is what they were given to maintain an office, maintain a coordinator, to do their travel, to look after telephone expenses, to look after their hydro bill - for $36,500.

We say: Now you have to go and become self-sufficient. That is all the money we are going to give you, but we expect you to come back to us with your rules and recommendations and suggestions of how you would like to revitalize rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Then the rural development associations, because of their lack of funding and because they were not given the tools to do the job -

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I just want to inform the hon. gentleman that there are still - I meeting with them next week, actually - some thirty-five rural development associations.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: They do not need it.

AN HON. MEMBER: They do not need it?

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Let me say to the hon. gentlemen that thirty-five of the fifty-nine that were around are doing very well. They need a little adjustment in administrative numbers. They are doing very well, I say to the hon. gentleman, by being implemented. He does not understand, as usual, the process.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member understands and he understands quite well what this government have done. They have taken away the $35,000 that they gave them in order to survive. Now they are out, and the only way rural development associations are surviving in this Province today is with the funding that they can get from the federal coffers of trying to get 3 per cent and 3 per cent for make-work projects that the provincial government puts forward in order to survive administrative funding. That is wrong.

How do you expect today to have a group of people, whether it is the rural development associations, Community Futures, or the RED boards, go out and try to bring about industry and economic activity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador if you do not give them the tools in order to carry out that function?

Then the government of the day decided they were going to progress. Rural development associations were not doing the work government expected them to do so they brought about a new organization. They went out and said: We are going to transform the rural development associations. We are now going to call them community futures. They went out and told the rural development associations to be prepared: This is the parent company, this is the parent association, and you people now should get involved in community futures.

What it was, was a rehash of rural development associations. Then you had one group in conflict with the other. You had them living in fear of which one government was going to support and which one government was going to allow to die. The rural development associations hung in there.

MR. E. BYRNE: They are still hanging in, Roger.

MR. FITZGERALD: They are still hanging in there, I say, with some good, valuable membership, I say to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, despite the efforts of government to allow them to die.

Then the former minister - prior to the ministry of the Government House Leader - the Member for Grand Bank went out and decided she was going to introduce a new form of local administration. They were going to be called the rural economic development boards, the R.E.D. boards. Those new boards would then take the place of community futures, they would take the place of rural development associations, and they were the people that were going to bring about economic change and prosperity.

I remember myself and the Member for Trinity North attending the official kickoff ceremonies up at the Holiday Inn or the Clarenville Inn in Clarenville one bright, sunshiny summer morning with the minister. In fact, there were probably thirty-five or forty people there. All the volunteers, all the people you see involved in community councils, the people you see on the local fire departments, the people you would see taking part in communities activities, were there, excited, because this was a new beginning. They were encouraged to get involved. Those people were going to be given the funding they needed in order to bring about economic prosperity. Good idea. Good idea, but we are still waiting. I say to the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal, we are still waiting.

The jury is out on the minister himself because I am not so sure he has implemented any change or direction that will bring about economic prosperity or even allow some hope in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE: By leave!

CHAIR: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, so this is how far we have come. We have gone full circle. As much respect as I have for some of the people who are on those regional economic development boards, I am not so sure they have been given the tools to do what needs to be done in order to have industry and new investors introduced to rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

You will never hear me stand in this House and talk about a minister being away in Europe, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Guatemala, anywhere, looking for economic prosperity. You will never hear me question why the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal travels to Japan. You will never hear me question why the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology would make a trip to Ireland. If it is going to bring about one job it is worth the trip, because the people in Newfoundland and Labrador today, especially the people in rural areas, are crying out.

The Member for Terra Nova hears it every time he goes to his district. The Member for Bonavista North hears exactly what I hear. He hears exactly what I am saying. If there is one thing that frustrates me more than anything else, it is the phone call that I get from somebody sincerely looking for a job. They do not want to leave home, and going to Toronto is not an option for them. It is when they call and say: I wonder if you can tell me where I might be able to go to look to find a job. If it is one thing that frustrates me in this job it is the point of not being able to help that individual.

I guess it frustrates me because I know what it is like myself. I have been unemployed, and I've had to go away to look for a job. Every time I have left this Province and I've had to leave my family home to go away, you leave with a knot in your stomach, because you are not sure, number one, of where you are going, and number two, if it is even going to be economically feasible for you to make the trip. You are leaving your family home to fend for themselves.

When you hear people opposite say travelling around Canada is nothing new, what is wrong with having to go to Alberta to find a job?, or what is wrong with having to go to Ontario to find a job?, there is probably nothing wrong with it, if you are leaving to go away because you want to go away. There is a lot wrong with it when you are leaving to go away and you do not want to go.

It was only a few months ago that I was at the airport out here. It was early in the morning, it was about 7:00. I saw this man - I would say he was forty-two, forty-three years old - whose wife was with him, and there was another older gentlemen with him. I would assume it was his father that was with him. You could tell that they were common people. You could tell that being at the airport was not somewhere they found themselves very often.

I sat back and watched them because I could relate to it myself. I could relate to the times when I went to the airport in a similar way. They walked around while they were waiting for the flight to depart. He had gone and he had checked in. I could see that he was going away to work by the way he was dressed and by what he had with him.

Just before he entered the waiting area there to get on the plane I saw the old gentlemen - and I would guess that he was probably seventy years old, I say to members opposite - reach in and take out his wallet and put a $5 bill in the son's hand. I had a lump in my throat that I could hardly swallow, because I'm certain that it was not the first time that wallet was out to help the son and the daughter-in-law. I am certain it was not the only time that senior has put his hand in his pocket to help his son and his daughter-in-law. Or it could have been his daughter and his son-in-law, I do not know, but it was obviously a close family relationship. The gentleman put his hand in his back pocket, he took out his wallet and he gave him $5. It was not to buy a pack of cigarettes. It was a $5 bill to put in his pocket as his way of saying: I wish I could give more, I wish you did not have to go away, this is all I can do to help. I guess it made him feel good. It was probably a cup of coffee or a snack for him on the way. If that kind of thing does not touch you, then I do not know what will.

My daughter was getting aboard the same airplane. I went out by the fence like you usually do. You go into St. John's airport and you do not know if you are at a seaport or an airport. You do not see any activity there. Most people go out and they watch as their loved one or as their relation gets aboard the plane. They wave good bye. Usually you see them gathered out by the parking lot, by the wire fence, to watch as the plane goes by.

I was no different. I went out. My wife would not leave until she saw the plane go out of sight. The old gentlemen and his daughter, or his daughter-in-law, I am not sure, were there by the fence. They stood and watched outside. I was sitting in my car. I don't know how they got to the airport. I would assume that there was a car or some relative might have dropped them off. They stood by the wire fence and watched as the plane went by.

My daughter left to go away and go to work. She was a young person. The only family she had was her mother, father and sister that she left home. This gentleman was leaving his daughter, he was leaving his wife, and he was leaving his family, and I can guarantee you it was not the trip he wanted to make. The only thing I regret is that I did not go over and strike up a conversation with the old gentleman. That is the only thing I regret today, because I am sure that his story would have been a story that could be told by hundreds of rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

One time as a Newfoundlander, it was almost part of growing up that you had to go away. Newfoundlanders built Toronto. Newfoundlanders built New York and Boston. You talk to anybody down there and they will tell you it was the Newfoundlanders who went there and were the hardest workers. They were the ones that did not mind climbing the heights and erecting the steel. They did not mind getting up in the morning and working in all wets and weathers. It is nothing new for Newfoundlanders to have to leave home, nothing new whatsoever, but up until recently most Newfoundlanders and Labradorians left home because they wanted to leave home. They wanted to see how the other part of the world lived. They left to prepare themselves to come back.

I know in my case I went away for eight years. I was away five years before I even came home, but every hour I was away it was to prepare myself to come home some day. It was to prepare myself to come home and probably build a house that I could own rather than have a mortgage. Because in those days, if you lived in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, if you did not mind going out and losing a bit of sweat and exercising a bit of elbow grease, you could go and do those things. You could go in the woods and cut your logs and build your house. You cannot even do that today, I say to members opposite.

If you go out today, the most you can ask the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods for is a permit to cut one hundred logs to tie it in. Even then it will come off your firewood. If you don't haul your firewood out when you cut it, within a month or two months, you have to go to the Minister of Forestry to get a permit to haul your wood home. How silly. We talk about living in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we talk about freedoms, and we talk about the reason why we stay here, the reason why we love it here.

Our rights are being taken away from us. All of a sudden I think a lot of us come within the confines of this room and we lose sight of why we are here. We lose sight of the people that we represent. We lose sight of the people we should be talking about. We come here and we start to represent our parties or our government or our leader. In fact, I don't know if we should have any such thing as parties. I think people should come and get elected, and after they get elected then the party should be decided after. The party should not play a part when you go out and run for election. I think most people are getting away from it now. Most people today do not go out and vote for you because you are a Tory or because you are a Liberal. Most people who got elected in this House of Assembly are here because the people trust them to support them. They elect them because they feel that they are the people who will echo their voice and their opinion right here in this House of Assembly. That is the way that it should be.

I will get back to the R.E.D. boards again, the boards that the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal is now responsible for. I would assume he is going to give them the tools and the funding in order to bring about some economic change in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The minister said - I did not quite understand what he did say.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: They received funding for the next three to five years. Is it funding to allow them to survive, or is it funding where they can go out and try to identify economic activity and allow people to come here?

MR. TULK: You do not understand the process at all.

MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe I do not understand the process, but I understand very well that it has not worked up until now. I understand that process. If there is a new process put in place, I will give it the benefit of the doubt and allow it to happen. It is two years old and I have not seen one economic activity that has been brought about by RED boards in the area that I have served since they have been there. If there is one or two, inform me.

MR. TULK: When I see them next weekend, I will gladly inform them of what you just said. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I would as well, I say to the minister, inform them. I am not saying they are not trying. I say to you that I have not seen one project that I can say is the result of the activity of the RED boards. I have not seen one.

MR. TULK: I will have a list prepared for you.

MR. FITZGERALD: You should. In fact, you should stand here and put it forward in a Ministerial Statement if they have done those good things, and lay it out to the House.

MR. TULK: Your own district (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell them to me. Start rhyming them off if you know them.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell me one.

MR. TULK: I know lots of them.

MR. FITZGERALD: Never mind, you know lots of them. Tell me one.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) Bonavista?

MR. FITZGERALD: What are they doing down in Bonavista?

MR. TULK: What are they?

MR. FITZGERALD: You tell me what they are doing.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That was done by Cabot Resources, I say to the minister, nothing to do with the RED boards. A couple of the people would sit on both boards are part of it. That was done by Cabot Resources. Cabot Resources, a prime example. Here was another association that was put in place to bring about and help create industry, opportunity and hope. What did they do? The government strangled them again, cut off all funding to them, and said: If you are going to exist now, you have to go out and raise your own funds. In fact, they do not even have a coordinator any more.

I say to the minister that if those people are bringing about economic activity, or if they are put in place to bring about economic activity, give them the resources to do it.

There is no point in somebody sitting in an office down in Port Union, or there is no point in somebody sitting in an office in Wesleyville and think that industry, prosperity or investors are going to come to them. You have to get out and compete. You have to be there. You have to get your feet wet.

The only way to do it is to put good people there, which we have I think. I think we have identified the right people. We now have to give them the tools to get on and do the job.

Mr. Chairman, there are things happening in other areas of other provinces. Some things are happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, but it seems that, for the most part, we try to fool ourselves that we are doing something by appointing boards, giving them no funding, and expecting them to bring us back the answers of what is going to create economic activity, support our communities, and support our people. That is not happening, I say to the minister.

The onus is on you, Minister. People are expecting you to be an example. People are expecting you to go out and show them, and put forward your ideas, your opinions, and give them -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) cooperation.

MR. FITZGERALD: You will get cooperation from me, I say to the minister.

MR. TULK: You are up (inaudible) your own people.

MR. FITZGERALD: You do not know what you are talking about. It is no wonder we are in such shape. It is no wonder rural Newfoundland and Labrador is falling down around our ears, when you hear those kinds of statements coming from the minister.

The minister had a good idea a couple of months ago.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Just a minute, now. The minister had a good idea when he was the Minister for - he was in your job then, I say to the member from the West Coast. He was the Minister for Agriculture, Agrifoods at the time, and the minister had an excellent idea. Here is the minister's idea, the only idea that I have ever heard him bring forward in this House for economic prosperity for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

This is the only economic activity that he has ever talked about, and the headlines in the paper read: Here is the beef - buffalo beef that is. Local buffalo beef and bison burgers may soon be a regular commodity on supermarket shelves and restaurant menus in Newfoundland. The provincial government is currently studying a proposal to operate buffalo ranches on the Avalon Peninsula and other areas of the Province. The proponents are awaiting word from Agriculture Minister, Beaton Tulk, for permission to import buffalo to start their farms.

Mr. Chairman, this was the minister's proposal for economic diversification. This is was the minister's proposal for the survival of rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. TULK: That is not quite the way that read.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is exactly the way it read. The minister went on to say that Newfoundland is the only Province which does not have buffalo. He said, the plans called for the establishment of three or four buffalo farms on the Avalon Peninsula, one in the central region and another on the West Coast.

It was a situation that those buffalo farms were not going to be unique to the Avalon. They were going to be spread right across the Province, and you would see these signs up as you drive through Terra Nova National Park, and you would see the signs up as you go through the Humber Valley, and they would have pictures of buffalo on them instead of pictures of moose.

The minister went on to say that, right now bison meat tops the Canadian market both in terms of demand and price. So, it was going to be in big demand and I guess the price would certainly be high because the price would depend on the demand.

He said, the size of the buffalo ranches would depend on whether they are breeding stock or beef stock ranches, which would be much larger. The largest buffalo ranch in the Atlantic region is a 200-head operation in New Brunswick, and the minister is hoping to have buffalo ranches even greater than this one. They have been working out great everywhere, he said, according to our studies. It is a very viable investment, in our opinion.

He said, the ranch buffalo would be obtained from breeders across the country. The only remaining area in Canada where buffalo still roam free is in Alberta - so he did quite an extensive study on it - Newfoundland ranchers would have the buffalo in captivity -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Wait now. He said, the buffalo ranches would have the buffalo in captivity but controlled situations.

He went on to say - listen to this one, Mr. Chairman - you would have to keep a close eye on them and you would not be able to let them roam pastures like they do with cattle. So, he knew their actions, he had it all checked out, and this was the minister's proposal.

He went to say that the reason why it is in such high demand is because it is so low in fat and low in cholesterol. It would be a good source of red meat.

He went on, and said - and we all remember this one - the government tried this before in 1964 when they brought bison in from Alberta and placed them on Brunette Island in Fortune Bay. Three years later, there were only eight left. By the late 1980s there was just one, and that one has not been reported to have been sighted in recent years.

AN HON. MEMBER: They went over the cliffs.

MR. FITZGERALD: They went over the cliffs, Mr. Chairman, and that is the only proposal I have heard this minister bring forward in the six years that I have been here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That is a night issue, I say to the (inaudible).

That is the only recommendation I have heard this minister bring forward. It is the only suggestion.

He sits in his seat today and shouts, and talks about how: I am going to tell your people this, and I am going to tell your people something else.

I say to the minister, he can take a copy of Hansard, of anything I say in this House, and send it to my 9,277 electors and I will say that I will stand, I will support, and I will verify everything that I have ever brought forward in this House of Assembly.

I can tell you, when I stand here, I speak on behalf of the 9,277 electors who can go out and support me and send me here to represent them.

Mr. Chairman, those are some of the things that have to be done in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. You have to listen to the people. There is no point in creating a charade where you go out there and, because you are the new minister, because you are the new act on the block, or because you are the new kid on the block, that you have to go and create another organization or another association. Support the people you already have. Give them the tools to do the job to bring about economic diversification.

Mr. Chairman, I say to you, I say to the minister, there are a lot of opportunities that still exist with some of the few industries we have, if you try to support them.

Let's never forget this EDGE legislation that this government brought in. Remember the old EDGE legislation? What did they do with the EDGE legislation? They put out their long distance calls, they got on the Internet and they said: Come to Newfoundland and Labrador. We will give you free land. We will give you free taxation. We will give you $2,000 for every job you create. We will give you all the public land that you want.

What did they say to our local Newfoundlanders? What did they say to the local Newfoundlander who was out trying to create economic activity? What did they say to him?

AN HON. MEMBER: Payroll tax.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You will get nothing.

CHAIR (Smith): Order, please!

Leave has been withdrawn.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to rise and compliment my colleague, the Member for Bonavista South -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - and to say, in the few seconds I have, that it would be a real shame if I were to take up too much time, because I am being educated. I am learning a lot about Newfoundland and Labrador. I am sure the member would want to continue. Therefore, I shall facilitate his ability to rise and further educate the government as to what policies really work in Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, the problem with the government and the problem with the minister -

CHAIR: Order, please!

I know the hon. member is anxious.

The Chair recognizes the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr.Chairman, now you can see the exact reason why we are in such bad shape as we are in today. The minister does not want to listen to reason, does not want to listen to suggestions, turns his ear and says: We will withdraw leave. We do not want to hear what you are saying any more. We do not care if you are representing the views and opinions of your district or your constituents. Tell him to sit down.

MR. TULK: Who said that?

MR. FITZGERALD: Whoever withdrew leave. That is what it means; that is exactly what it is. We have time here to spend on the Budget, and it does not matter if one person speaks or 100 speak, I say to the minister.

Mr. Chairman, I refer again to the EDGE legislation. They went out and invited everybody to come on in and enjoy the government free-for-all. Enjoy free taxation. You do not have to pay any taxes. They went out and got communities to say that they would not impose taxation either. They went out and said: We will give you free land, you can have all the Crown land you need. We will pay you $2,000 for every job you create. You can have a tax holiday for the first five or ten years. We will give you the keys. Come on in.

What they forgot to do is to offer the same thing to our local Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are out there every day toiling and existing and prospering in spite of government rules and regulations. To make matters worse, they even imposed a payroll tax on them in order to pay for the benefits that they were passing to other people to come here and create economic activity.

There is nothing wrong with having come to this Province and provide some opportunity. There is nothing wrong with that. If there are people out there, let's welcome them and let's bring them in, and let's help them when we can, but by God, we should not do it when at the expense of our own rural people. If there are any benefits there we should offer it to our own rural people as well. That was not done.

What is wrong with Wayne Chard who operates a bake shop in Bonavista getting $2,000 if he created a job? What is wrong with Fifield's Bake Shop in Bonavista, or the bake shop up in Trinity, to get $2,000 if they could expand and create another job? What is wrong with that? What is wrong with Pottle's Cycle and Recreation if they decided they were going to expand and create two extra jobs? Why couldn't we offer them the same benefits? What is the difference?

That is what we have to get into. We have to start treating everybody alike. If we are going to be supporting people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, the people that is going to create the economic activity, for the most part it is going to be most of the people who are there now. Those are the ones that should be encouraged and helped. If we can bring somebody in to help along the way, then let's do it.

Right now, look at our sealing industry. The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is there. We are saying we have to kill 1 million or 2 million seals, or half the seal population, in order to allow the fishery to rebuild and reduce the herd. There is nobody, I do not think, in this House, that will disagree with that. If we have a few dollars and if we can help, then let's help support that particular industry. Let's help them go out and find new markets. Let's help them develop their tanneries. Let's help them go and get into meat manufacturing or whatever else it takes in order to be able to utilize the full animal, and in order to convince the people up in Ottawa and the people like the IFAW that what we are doing here there is a need for. That is what they are looking for. That is the direction they are looking for from this government here. That is what we should be doing.

It is pretty expensive to come and get involved in businesses in some parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We do not have a big population here. We are so far removed from markets that it is a chore in itself, I guess, to even survive here.

That is the same thing with our minerals. We talk about all the minerals we have. We talk about the riches we have. We also have a big handicap when you look at the cost of getting at those minerals and at the cost of getting them to market. I suppose the one thing, the biggest hindrance of all, is the Gulf ferry service that we have heard the Member for Baie Verte raise here on a number of occasions.

I don't know if we are amazed because we have almost taken it for granted now, but if you drive out between here and Clarenville or here to the West Coast, or I don't care where you drive, the next time you do it just count the number of transport trucks that you meet. Just count them and compare that to the number you saw ten or twenty years ago. Now you meet them almost in convoys because our train is gone and our coastal service is gone. We now ship just about everything that we move in this Province by road transport.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is wrong with that?

MR. FITZGERALD: There is nothing wrong with it, I say to the minister. It is a very expensive way of transportation. I will tell you what is wrong with it. There is nothing with the mode of transportation probably, but there is a lot wrong, Mr. Chairman, with what is happening with the Gulf service.

You talk to truckers today and you find out what it costs them to use that particular service, and you find out the amount of time that is consumed by their trucks parked and their employees standing on one end of the Gulf or the other, whether it is on this side or the other side, and it is no wonder we are paying such a high price for fresh fruits and commodities. When you talk to truckers you hear them say: I take up a load of fish to Montreal, Toronto or Boston and on the way back I pick up a load of fresh fruit, I pick up a load of bananas in Ontario, or I pick them up in Boston or something like that.

A lot of the fruit brought into this Province has to be brought in and has to be sold on a time frame. You just cannot start up the reefer and say: If we are here a week or if we are here for ten days it does not matter. It does not work that way. They are operating on a schedule that they must have that product to Sobey's or Dominion, or to wherever the destination ends, at a certain time. When they find themselves on the other end of the Gulf ferry service over in North Sydney for two or three days because they cannot get on the ferry - not because it is too rough - because the trucks are left to last, the passengers are looked after first, and it is not uncommon for them to spend three and four days there, then when they get to Sobey's and Dominion they find out that what they got on board is no good.

They will accept it but it is no good. They will get paid for their trip probably. Then we wonder why we have to pay such a high price for fresh fruit in this Province. Where does it go? It goes to the dump, I say to members opposite. Who pays for it? Do Sobey's or Dominion take a loss? Not likely. The family out in Musgravetown, the family out in Bellevue, and the parent down in Catalina, who go and takes their meagre amount of money to try to buy fresh fruit to put on the table for themselves or the son or the daughter, what they pay reflects on what was lost by the shortcomings of our ferry service on the Gulf between Newfoundland and Cape Breton.

Then we saw New Brunswick brought about the toll highway last year. Who suffers most from that, I ask members opposite? Who suffers most from the toll that is issued up in New Brunswick? Here again, the consumers in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Member for Torngat Mountains can tell you all about what it costs. The Member for Labrador West, if he cared to stand in his place here and talk about some of the things that I just referred to, can talk about them from now until the cows come home because he knows this is true.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. FITZGERALD: He knows, Mr. Chairman, exactly what I am saying is true because he has had to go through it many times before. I have made many trips down on the Labrador Coast -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

CHAIR: Leave denied.

The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, it is an honour and privilege for me today to speak on behalf of the people of the historic District of Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: My first duty today is to offer our support from all members of this House to any families in our Province who have sons and daughters serving in the current conflict in Yugoslavia. Our prayers are with you all.

Mr. Chairman, it is indeed a great pleasure, privilege, and an honour to make my initial address in this House. There are few things that are certain in our ever changing world, but one of the few certainties is this: No one seeks political office in order to secure for themselves a restful, relaxing, calm and complacent job, except for the hon. Member for Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. H. HODDER: Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. SWEENEY: Indeed the hours can be long and tedious -

CHAIR: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I regret having to do this, but the rules, and courtesy, say we should not cast aspersions on other members. I think the comment there was a little bit against the rules and I ask the member to consider not casting aspersions on other members. I regret having to say this since it is his introductory speech and normally we do not interrupt on these occasions.

CHAIR: The Chair feels there was certainly nothing untoward in the hon. member's remarks, and there is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, indeed the hon. Member for Waterford Valley is a picture of grief and sympathy over there, I must say.

Indeed, the hours can be long and tedious. There is contention virtually at every turn, and the responsibility of directing matters that will affect the lives of many thousands of individuals weighs heavily on our shoulders. However, our government has been aware of the economic problems facing this Province for some time. We have worked with diligence and dedication to achieve the best for all people of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has not been easy, but this government has performed tasks that had to be done. We did not shirk from that responsibility. Our government has done, is doing, and will continue to do the very best for the citizens of our Province.

It is never easy to talk about money, whether it is college tuition for your son or daughter, bills that have to be paid on the home front, or the millions of dollars a government has to spend province-wide. It is never easy to talk about it and it is never easy to live within the bounds which we are forced to live sometimes. However, given the condition of our provincial economy, not to mention the wishes of already overburdened taxpayers, the first priority of any budget must be to get the best results for the dollars that we spend.

Toward that end it is our task to make less or get more: a seeming paradox on the surface, but a goal that must be accomplished if we are to balance the needs, expectations and desires for people, along with the realistic ability of our Province to pay for it all, of course.

In this process we must all understand that above the figures on the page we all want the same thing. Our goal is the same goal we have always had, and that is to build a sound economic base that will provide for our people so they can meet the challenges of today's ever changing world as we provide for them. It is common sense to have a sense of mission.

If we are to be an integral part of a vital and changing world community then we can do no less than try our best with new ideas and new approaches. We can do no less than give our support and work towards the successful implementation of innovative strategies. We can do no less than try to build for tomorrow.

This government is committed to growth and development, yet sensitive to the human condition. We encourage the sense of self-discipline, self-worth, social consciousness, and self-reliance which are such a large part of the character of our people. These attributes will serve us well as we travel down the road to prosperity.

There will no point of disagreement whatsoever if I were to tell you that we on the government side want our people to become creative, responsible and productive members of society, ready and able to meet the challenges of an ever changing global village. That is a goal that we want to accomplish for our constituents, and that is a goal every member of this House of Assembly should strive for. We are all of one mind on that subject, or at least I hope we are.

We believe that the Liberal philosophy as it is implemented will be able to challenge our people to reach their potential in the most effective means possible. We have seen it happen time and time again and we know we are up to the challenge. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are strong, vibrant people who possess a strong spirit and dynamic work ethic.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Therefore, the policies and programs put forth by this government will have a great success because of our approach to consultation and our responsiveness to the guidelines given to us by the electorate in the recent election.

Mr. Chairman, we as a government have no better partners than the people of Newfoundland and Labrador; therefore we can succeed with our efforts, we can attain our goals and we will build on our recent accomplishments to provide a better future for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SWEENEY: That is going to take a little while but we are working on it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SWEENEY: That goes without saying.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tell them, George, about the opening of the new road.

MR. SWEENEY: I would like to keep the opening of the new road for another time. That was the opening of the new road in Carbonear in 1987. That is a story in itself. I can stand up here for another day and tell that one. It will make for a great night session one of these evenings.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tomorrow night.

MR. SWEENEY: Tomorrow night that will be.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was wrong with the road in 1987?

MR. SWEENEY: Nothing wrong with the pavement itself, but there were a few little glitches that occurred for the opening.

Anyway, speaking of the past, we can always learn something from our past mistakes. The days of develop or perish may be long gone but the mindset of giving away the shop for short-term benefits has not totally disappeared. We must be forever vigilant. We cannot afford to mortgage the future of our Province.

Mr. Chairman, it is my sincere wish and hope that during my tenure in this great House I witness the transformation of a society that has been on survival mode for far too long to one in which opportunity, prosperity and real progress become a reality. I believe all members of this hon. House have within us a positive contribution to make to the future of our Province and to the betterment of its people.

Through vigorous, statesmanlike debate and constructive criticism on both sides of this House we can elevate the tone and tenor of our exchanges. In the past couple of weeks I am not sure if we are elevating or `de-elevating.' At a time when criticism, not respect, often reflects the public view of politics and politicians, we have the duty to do better. When I talk about doing better I do not think I am talking about the road shows that have been taking place in the past little while.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Our people will gain much when we remember that we are there to always serve them.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased today to stand and present a few more -

AN HON. MEMBER: How is your `meetloaf' committee doing?

MR. MANNING: I was hoping to get a report today from the `meetloaf' committee. Oh, here is the chair. I was looking for a report from the `meetloaf' committee. I know you were busy on the weekend.

I am pleased today to stand here. I have to compliment my colleague from Bonavista South, who spoke very eloquently and for a long time. He spoke on many of the concerns that face rural Newfoundland and Labrador today. The Member for Cape St. Francis was also on his feet taking this government to task on some of the things that have happened over the past ten years. It was very enlightening to listen to the Member for Cape St. Francis in just trying to keep the government on their toes.

I was hoping to stand here in this House today - there seemed to be Ministerial Statements going all over the place - I was hoping that the chairperson of the `meetloaf' committee would have a report after his weekend activities. I waited with anticipation, but I guess we will wait a few more days for him to get the report ready.

I would like to give notice today that tomorrow night, during our night session, I will appointing a new committee, and it is going to be the flip-flop committee.

AN HON. MEMBER: What page are you on?

MR. MANNING: I am still on page one, I say to the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

I will be announcing a new committee tomorrow night, during the night session. I have had some consultation with members on the opposite side to see who wants to serve. I spoke briefly with the Minister of Mines and Energy, and he is interested in serving on the committee. I do not want to give out all of the information because it is a very high level committee. I have to discuss it with my colleagues on both sides of the House.

It is going to be an interesting committee, the flip-flop committee. I know that members opposite are waiting with bated breath, I say to members on both sides of the House, to see who is going to be on this committee.

I was going to announce it today, but I still have some consultations left. I am going to wait until tomorrow night, during the night session, to give out the details and criteria of those people who made it to the committee, and the task they are going to be asked to do over the next few weeks. It is going to be interesting.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Over the next few months, I say to the Minister of Environment, there is going to be a major recycling program on that side of the House, according to the comments of the Premier on Friday.

Knowing the good, solid Tory background of the Minister of Environment, I am sure he is going to be staying around for awhile; because, when I sized up the Cabinet, there are more Tories in it than Liberals. I would say, point blank, that the Minister of Environment is going to stay around for awhile.

It was very interesting to hear the future minister, the Member for Bonavista South, make some comments on the Government House Leader. I found it interesting that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I cannot hear the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

AN HON. MEMBER: You will soon have (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I would say you are going to have to get a good few Liberals appointed if you are going to keep up with the Tories who are in Cabinet, I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: The sandbagger from Corner Brook is back in his seat. I think I would be remiss -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, Sir. My God, he was one of the members of the 500 Club. He ran for Tory nomination. Sure half of them over there ran for Tory nominations. A couple of them were elected as Tories.

I think, Mr. Chair, that I would be remiss if I did not say a few words on Buffalo Bill here in the front, Buffalo Beaton. Buffalo Bill is gone - Buffalo Beaton.

I listened with interest to the Member for Bonavista South going back through the history of the Government House Leader -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Page 1, a picture of a buffalo.

MR. TULK: How would you know?

MR. MANNING: A picture of a buffalo, you see the head on it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, Mr. Chair, I listened with interest to the Member for Bonavista South talking about the Government House Leader's plans for the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: As soon as I mentioned I was going to appoint a flip-flop committee, look who walks in. I say to the member, look, you are going to have to wait until tomorrow night. I do not have all the details worked out. Now I know the Minister of Finance, after watching what has happened with the tax cuts in the past few days, will certainly be garnering support for the flip-flop committee. I am not sure if the Minister of Finance is going to make it. He has made a few flip-flops, but I am going to be - there are only going to be three members able to make it on that side of the House.

AN HON. MEMBER: When are you going to announce the (inaudible) committee?

MR. MANNING: Tomorrow night. I will be announcing the flip-flop committee tomorrow night. Once I mentioned it, all the members started coming back to the House trying to get on my good side now, trying to get on it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, well there is going to be a travel budget in this one. The Minister of Mines and Energy has gone out. I will have to touch on him after. There is going to be a travel budget.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a moment if I could and go back to what we were talking about here the other day with our out-migration. I am not sure if the Minister of Fisheries and his colleagues got exactly what I was trying to say but there is a major problem with out-migration in this Province. I think it would be remiss if we did not make some comments on out-migration.

So much came out on Friday that we could be talking about, I am really not sure where to start, but I think it would be remiss if I did not say stand in my place here today and say that the race is on. The race is on, on the other side of the House. I can see people jockeying for positions over there already. The race is on.

From consultations I have had over the weekend with people in my district, in talking to some people, there is some support for the Minister of Fisheries. Now that the race is on, on the other side of the House, now that the race is on and we are jockeying for positions, I know of four or five delegations that are coming to the convention and are going to be supporting the Minister of Fisheries.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, the same thing is going to happen to Buffalo Beaton that happened to the last buffalo. They are going to be run out over the cliff. They are going to go out over the cliff. Yes, Sir, they are going to be run out over the cliff, I say to the member opposite.

No, I must say, from just initial consultations on the weekend, I think the Minister of Fisheries is miles ahead. I have to give credit where credit is due. I said that the other day, on Friday. The Minister of Fisheries is miles ahead now that the race is on, but I am watching the Minister of Mines and Energy. I would say to the Minister of Fisheries, I am watching the Mines and Energy today and he is after talking to seven on that side already in close counters.

MR. FITZGERALD: Fabian, don't forget what happened to Jack Harris when he ran for the mayor's job. He was miles ahead too.

MR. MANNING: Oh, yes, but at the present time the Minister of Fisheries is miles ahead. The Minister of Mines and Energy is doing what he is so good at; he is coming up behind. You want to be careful because, when he gets you turned back on, you know what he will do. He will twist it and turn it.

MR. TULK: The Minister of Energy is long-winded.

MR. MANNING: Yes he is long-winded but he is going to be long gone when this race is over, I say to the Government House Leader.

Seriously, I want to get back because it is very important that people out in the Province are aware that government business is going to be put on hold. People out in the Province are going to be fully aware that government business is going to be put on hold now that the race is on. There is nothing else on some people's minds now on that side of the House only that the race is on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: He said the other day, his last political job and then he is gone. I am putting my money on the Minister of Fisheries. Just emanating from the people I talked to on the weekend, the Minister of Fisheries is guns ahead.

I just say to all the back benchers back there that if you want to get on the winning card I think that you better get on the Minister of Fisheries' winning card. I think he has more going -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes.

Do you know what someone said to me on the weekend, Mr. Chairman? They said the reason they are supporting the Minister of Fisheries is because he did not forget where he came from. They figure the Minister of Mines and Energy forgot where he came from.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time up.

MR. MANNING: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

MR. MANNING: I'm out trying to get the Minister of Fisheries delegates, right?

CHAIR: Leave denied.

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I tell you, the hon. Member for Bonavista South is going to be interested in a couple of comments I have to make because he spoke about it, touched on it briefly. I have a couple of comments about the seal fishery and how important it is to make a decision on it.

I have been for almost three years now going around Canada trying to get public opinion on our side, trying to discredit the propaganda that is being put out by the animal rights' organizations. I received a fax today from Alison Beal, of the Fur Institute of Canada, informing us of the inroads that we are making and the whole attitude change out there in the general public. It could not have been better news from where it came. This is what happened. These are the Beverly Hills Voters. They actually voted on this issue last week. Seriously. Just let me read it to you. It is about discrediting the animal rights' organization, and in of all places, California, Beverly Hills, Hollywood, where the bleeding hearts are supporting the IFAW.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you making progress?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, major progress.

I will quote:

"Beverly Hills, California - Voters in Beverly Hills overwhelmingly rejected a city ballot initiative that would have required labels on fur products detailing how the animal may, or may not, have been killed. The measure was rejected by the voters with 64 per cent voting against Measure A in an unusually large turnout for a single-issue ballot. The actual votes were 5,271 voting, with 3,363 opposed to the `shock politics' measure."

I think when you have over 5,000 people in Beverly Hills, California voting on an issue such as that, that is a major inroad, a major change, a major shift in public attitude towards the animal rights' groups, and seeing the hypocrisy of what those groups have been doing over the last number of years. When you get a change like that in an area like that, you can imagine the change that is taking place worldwide, because there is a major shift in people's attitude on this issue.

When I was driving up from Clarenville this morning I was listening to the news about NATO and Kosovo -

AN HON. MEMBER: What were you doing down in Clarenville?

MR. EFFORD: Speaking down in the hon. member's district.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Invited down there. I just cannot keep up with the invitations.

I was listening to the news and they were talking about how there is a bit of a riff between the U.K. and Washington over moving in ground troops. Let's just talk about that for a second. Who is the biggest group of people in the world who is supporting the animal rights' organizations? The U.K. They are the largest contributors to the animals rights' organization. In fact, last year the IFAW raised $56 million U.S., and they contributed about 80 per cent of that money. The rest of it, most of it comes from the United States. As two countries, part of the organization, are bombing Kosovo, thousands of people being killed - and they must do it, for all the right reasons - but those same two countries, in particular the U.K., are opposing a seal hunt.

Just think of what I just said. Those same people who are contributing $56 million to the IFAW, U.S. funds, are opposing a seal hunt. Just think about what I just said. Isn't that absolutely unbelievable? What are they up to now? Fifty-six days of bombing raids; it continues day after day, fifty-six days. It is absolutely unbelievable that the people in that country could be against an animal hunt here that is the most regulated hunt in the whole world. There is no other animal hunt in this world regulated the way the seal hunt is on the coast of Atlantic Canada. Yet, those people oppose it on a day-to-day basis.

The shift is coming. The shift is moving and moving very swiftly, and we have to continue to make sure that it does. Here is another interesting letter that was sent into The Northern Pen. Finally people are starting to realize the impact on other fish stocks, not only cod. Seal eating every salmon and trout. The letter reads:

"Dear Editor:

"CBC announcer Doug Letto took it as a joke when someone sent in a comment that spring is here and the seals will soon be leaving the cod and turning on the salmon because they are more tasty. Well, it's no joke. I can tell you that seals get a lot of salmon in the spring and in the fall they drive herring into coves and devour them. Seals go up in the bottom of Canada Bay to the big rivers and eat every salmon and trout they find." Quite right. The next statement is: "They don't go up there to cut wood."

It goes on:

"If fishery officers were issued cameras instead of guns, they could show the world what seals are capable of doing.

"If I had not seen with my own eyes what the seals were capable of doing, I would not have believed it. The seals and whales came in and barred about one or two hundred barrels of herring and they never left..." one herring to escape.

That happened in Englee. There is a letter from Stewart Brown in Englee. They estimated about 1 million pounds of herring. I have the video. It is unbelievable. The seals actually corralled about 1 million pounds of herring right on the bottom of the bay of Englee. The video shows, and the people saw it, not one herring escaped. They ate every single one.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Pardon? Yes. Not yet. Isn't that something? We are talking about cod, we are talking about salmon, we are talking about trout, we are talking about herring, we are talking about every species. There is evidence from all over the Province.

We have the Salmonid Association opposing bringing in diploid trout in Bay d'Espoir because they say if a diploid trout, a female escapes, it could eat the salmon smolts. Last year I showed that same organization a picture that was taken in Bay d'Espoir where a seal was killed and out of the stomach of that seal they took fourteen salmon smolts. I have tried to get a meeting with the same association and I cannot get a five minute meeting with them. Yet they oppose trying to build up an industry in Bay d'Espoir. For a year I have been requesting a meeting to talk about the impact on salmon stocks and cannot get a meeting.

They have been on the radio from New Brunswick, from all over Newfoundland, opposing bringing in diploid trout, rainbow trout, to try to build up the industry, because of the impact it might have on our traditional salmon stocks. That is the Salmonid Association.

I just cannot believe what is in the minds of people around here. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians cannot take a fish out of the ocean personally. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians cannot commercially fish out of the ocean to earn a living, to put food on the table, to pay their bills. Yet 6 million seals can eat away at the fish and nobody cares. The union out there does not kick up anything about it. The fisheries committees do not talk about it. Nobody is interested in solving the problem. You have stories coming out every single day.

At least people outside are beginning to recognize the hypocrisies of the animal rights' organization. They are beginning to see that they have only one interest alone: raising as much money as possible for their own personal financial interest, and have absolutely no concern about people, no concern about seals, no concern about the resource or fish stocks. They just want to get the money flowing in: $56 million U.S. last year, which equates to about $80 million Canadian.

We have to keep up the public relations campaign. Every member, every man and women, every person in this Province has to keep it up and show them for the falsehoods which they put out there and keep our campaign going, because the truth will win in the end. As Lloyd Oldford from Red Cliff, Bonavista Bay, said when he made a presentation to the Standing Committee on Fisheries, and the Member for Baie Verte said identically the same thing: I wonder if it is not already too late.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to react to a couple of things that the minister said. I'm going to give the minister full credit. If there is anybody in this Province who has done a yeoman's service in trying to bring about change and attitude, and bring about the right information, and carry it across this nation, it has been the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. I have to agree with that.

We went to Ottawa - and I have been to Ottawa twice now with the minister - looking for benefits from the federal government to take back to rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I have been on committees before. I do not know if I ever went anywhere so frustrated and with so many negative things coming at you, and so many different things changing, and who you could see and who you could not see, as on the last trip when we went to Ottawa.

Sometimes it was almost like you would look at each other and say: Boys, what are we doing here? Who is listening to us? Is it worth the trip? What have we achieved? All this kind of thing would go through your mind after and you would say: Has it been worth it? It would have been better if we took our family and went on vacation.

When you go and sit and have a national news conference and attract the national media that we attracted that day up in Ottawa, in a forum where everybody was allowed to speak - it was non-partisan; you can believe that if you want to, but even the minister was non-partisan - and you see it flashed all over the world, somebody has to look at it and sometimes pay attention to it.

When you see an opportunity where we could sit and each member of the committee, again, has their time to make a presentation and to speak in front of the Standing Committee on Fisheries in the House of Commons, and all this being filmed and being shown on C-PAC again right across the nation and, with modern technology, I'm sure all over the world, somewhere somebody probably started to believe one of the speakers. Whether it was the minister, whether it was Lloyd Oldford, whether it was the Member for Baie Verte, Mr. Chairman, or the member from Stephenville, maybe somebody recognized something that they said and believed it.

I am sure as long that as the minister gets an opportunity to speak or an invitation - sometimes he amazes me, he has so much energy that he can go and attend all of those speaking functions. I admire him for that. I admire him for a man who, being involved in politics as long as he has been, still has that drive with him to take the issue and march forward. Just maybe some of the things the minister has been trying to do - and the all party committee, and this House of Assembly agrees. There is no argument with the minister whatsoever. Maybe public opinion is starting to change. Maybe people out there are seeing the IFAW for exactly what they are: a bunch of parasites feeding off people with bleeding hearts because they talk about some animal that supposedly looks pretty when they are small.

People are beginning to see through it. Was it Paul Watson who was being paid over $2 million as a fee just for the use of his name? When people saw that, then people suddenly started to say: Hang on a minute now. Is this what our money is being used for? Is it been used to feather the nests and pockets of some of those people who are taking on their plight for animals rights, to fill their own pockets and to fulfil their own little niche in life? If it is, then maybe some of those people will stop giving.

It is pretty difficult to compete with a group of people or an organization that has access to $56 million U.S. That is about $80 million Canadian. It is pretty difficult to compete with something like that. I say that about the minister and about his plight to try to bring about some resolve to this issue, because until we go and attend to the overpopulation of the harp seal herd we will be a long time waiting for our codfish stocks to return to any normal situation where our fishermen can go out fishing again to support and feed their families.

It is not only happening here in Newfoundland, it is happening in other provinces as well, but I think it is probably more pronounced on the northeast coast than anywhere else in the world. I know there were some people before the Standing Committee in Ottawa from Nunavut, the new territory, and they made their presentation as well. Most of the things they said and the concerns they brought forward was not a lot different from what we said.

I am not sure about the federal government. I think we have a lot of convincing of the federal government to do yet. When I see them coming out and talking about the need to have more science and the need to do a further count so we can go and make rational decisions based on science, and then you see them cutting back on science funding, it make you wonder if they are committed. Maybe the minister has to do a massive selling job with his cousins in Ottawa as well.

When I last stood here in the House I talked about people leaving the Province for reasons a little different now than ones of a few years ago, when we all wanted to leave in order to see how the other half of the world lived. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to take a look at those CareerSearch books that were distributed by the Minister of Education. They are excellent sources of material and are great references, I say to people opposite. Obviously they cost a lot of money. There is a lot of work gone into those CareerSearch books. There are two of them: one on the public colleges, the College of North Atlantic and private colleges, and one on Memorial University.

I would just ask you to look through some of those programs that are offered here in the CareerSearch books. Look at some of the headings and see the number of people who have left the Province. It is worth your while to look through them and look at the number of people who are leaving the Province. Some of them jump out at you. As high as 70 per cent of graduates from our post-secondary institutions have left this Province in order to find employment.

MR. REID: Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Order, please!

On a point of order, the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, with reference to what the Member for Bonavista South is talking about in the career book there, I had a discussion recently with the President of Marine Institute. He informed me, and told me to tell the rest of my colleagues, that the Marine Institute cannot supply the demand today for skippers, marine engineers and mates. He thought that if you people knew it and you were speaking at graduations or anything like that, you might pass the word along.

Apparently these people are in demand all over the world. The good thing about it is that if you were to become a mate, a skipper, an engineer, or any of these trades associated with the water today, you could still live in rural Newfoundland.

Like you said, you could be working on a supply vessel down in the Gulf of Mexico and when your shift changed they would fly you, for example, to Gander if you wanted to go back to Fogo Island.

I suggest that if you are speaking at graduations, or speaking to high school students, you would inform them of that matter.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

CHAIR: An interesting observation but no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have already said that it is an excellent source of material, and it is an excellent reference source. I have already said that. What I am asking you is to take a look at -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Chairman?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

CHAIR: Leave denied.

MR. FITZGERALD: I spent ten minutes praising you. I only want a few minutes to talk about what I want to talk about.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member does not have leave.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Opposition House Leader and myself, because we have to get ready for another committee meeting, have agreed to call it 5:00 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred, have directed me to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before we adjourn for the day, I would like to inform all hon. members, for those who have to make a schedule, that it is the government's intention to move a motion that we not adjourn at 5:00 p.m. tomorrow but that we would go until 11:00 p.m.

Before we leave, if the hon. gentlemen would permit, I have the private member's resolution and I would ask that the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile give the appropriate notice now.

AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed.

MR. SPEAKER: Agreed.

The hon. the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I request leave to present the following resolution:

WHEREAS the Gulf ferry service between Newfoundland and Mainland Canada is a constitutional obligation of Canada and discharged through its Crown corporation, Marine Atlantic Inc.; and

WHEREAS the Gulf ferry service is an extension of the national highway system and the Trans-Canada Highway between Nova Scotia and the Island portion of our Province; and

WHEREAS the federal government is responsible for providing an efficient ferry service for the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador through the Terms of Union with Canada; and

WHEREAS many tourists and residents in this Province utilize the Gulf ferry service and those persons have expressed their dissatisfaction with the current ferry service; and

WHEREAS the commercial trucking industry used the ferry service to transport goods to and from our Province;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly urge the federal government, through Marine Atlantic Inc., to provide an adequate replacement for the Atlantic Freighter that will, in addition to the M.V. Caribou and the M.V. Joseph & Clara Smallwood, adequately meet the demands of the travelling public, including tourists and commercial carriers.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, that is the resolution that we will be debating on Wednesday.

I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 2:00 p.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 2:00 p.m.