March 20, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 2


The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I raise a point of order arising out of a couple of incidents in the House on Thursday, and I am raising the point of order for future guidance and direction of hon. members.

The point of order, Mr. Speaker, raises a couple of concerns in respect to points of order or privilege that may be raised re interjections made from a non-operating mike, particularly on the day after when one awaits the arrival of Hansard to check out further what was said and discovers that the remarks made are not in the written edition of Hansard.

To be more specific, I refer to the couple of instances that were raised. One was a point of order made by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General re some serious remarks which were made by the Leader of the Opposition re three Crown prosecutors had become judges. Since the remarks were not withdrawn, they have become problematic. In reading Hansard, we find that the remarks are not there.

Now, similarly, the Minister of Transportation made unparliamentary remarks. I think he said "he lied" and the remarks were withdrawn, so that is not problematic. It becomes problematic when the offending remarks are not withdrawn.

In the copy of Hansard, the written copy of Hansard, we find that the remarks made by the Minister of Transportation were included but the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition were not.

Mr. Speaker, the question, the concern that needs to be addressed, is: what criteria is used for including interjections from non-operating mikes, so that hon. members can know this in the future.

I have observed many times, in reading Hansard, that all kinds of remarks are entered into Hansard. Sometimes it says the name of the member, sometimes it just simply says: An Hon. Member. So, it would be instructive for all hon. members if they knew what criteria was used in exclusion or inclusion of remarks by Hansard so that we can all know.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing which is very important is, when looking at the Hansard the next day, in terms of whether a point of privilege ought to be raised, or a point of order, and we see that the remarks are not in the Hansard and, on playing the video - because we do have two records of the House: the written copy of Hansard and the video. The question that arises is: What is authority used by the House in those matters ? Is it the written copy of Hansard, or is it the video? More appropriately, I guess, the question that ought to be asked is: Occupants of the Chair - because it is not only Your Honour - who are making these decisions, what authority do they use in doing that? Is it the written copy of Hansard or is it the other medium?

Mr. Speaker, that should direct hon. members in the future in terms of raising points of order or points of privilege, and should offer guidance and direction for members in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What is next? Do we go to the Internal Economy Commission and ask for a goal judge to sit in the gallery so that we can second-guess the rulings of the Speaker? Essentially, that is what the Government House Leader is talking about.

A point or order was raised and dealt with by the Chair. What needs to be understood here, clearly, is: What is it the Government House Leader is after? Is he, after the Speaker's ruling, to challenge the Speaker's ruling through the back door in terms of further clarification? The Speaker, in his role, clearly rules on points of order. He has made his ruling on this particular point of order. If you want to challenge it, there is an opportunity under substantive motions under the rules of the House to do exactly that. If you want to challenge it, stand up and challenge it.

Mr. Speaker, I submit to you that what is really going on here is just a further political prank that we have become accustomed to since this House opened, by the government, particularly since the House of Assembly has been televised, and more particularly, Mr. Speaker, and to the point, since the Member for Humber West has taken his seat in this chair, because that is what this government is up to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: Foolish points of order, points of privilege that really are points of order, all designed, Mr. Speaker, by a desperate group, unsolicited, unwarranted, unjustified, and I submit to you, Your Honour, unacceptable in this Chamber.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will recognize the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi to the point of order and then come back to the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Without getting into the kind of debate that we just heard from the Opposition House Leader, I will say that if the Government House Leader wants to rely on Hansard then he has to stand or fall by what is recorded in Hansard.

If there was a complaint about something that was said by a member opposite, then I think that the proper method to complain is - if it was not recorded - to repeat what someone heard another hon. member say, and if the member denies it then the Chair has to rule. I think in this case, the Government House Leader said: We will see what is in Hansard. We will rely on Hansard. If it is not recorded in Hansard, well then I think that is the end of the matter. So I would suggest that if, in future, people want to complain about what another hon. member has said as being unparliamentary and ask to withdraw, they are going to have to say what they heard the member say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: And then if the member denies it - an hon. member would not deny having said something that they said and would apologize. I think that will solve the problem that the hon. Government House Leader has gotten into by saying he is going to rely on Hansard; and if it is not recorded in Hansard there is very little we can do about it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of direction I was looking for, was given by the Leader of the NDP, and looking for information that was valuable to all hon. members. I thought all hon. members like to know the rules of the House and whether the written copy of Hansard is the supreme authority or whether the video is.

Let me assure you, Mr. Speaker, that this hon. member has too much respect for the Chair to ever challenge its ruling or ever to try and influence its ruling in any way. Mr. Speaker, I have never challenged the Speaker, never in my lifetime, and it will never happen. I respect the Chair and the rules of the House too much for that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order raised by the hon. Government House Leader. In the past the Chair has used the written recorded verbatim transcript to rule, but there have been occasions when - before the print was made - the Chair has used tapes as well to listen to what has transpired in the House and to rule based on what I heard on the tapes. The Chair has never used the video tape, of course, because we are just into televising House and we have never considered that at this point, but it might be something that the Chair will consider and take under advisement.

To the other point that the hon. member raised, how Hansard records interjections. That is something that I will certainly take under advisement and discuss with perhaps the hon. House Leaders as to why certain interjections are recorded and others are not.

Before we begin our proceedings, I would like to welcome to the gallery today, twenty Level II students from Canon Richards High School in Flower's Cove, in the District of The Straits & White Bay North. They are accompanied by teachers: Ms Dorthy White-Dredge and Mr. Genge, along with chaperones: Ms Jackie Moores and Mr. Mylan Moores.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before a capacity crowd of almost 4,000 fans, the Corner Brook Royals recently defeated the Deer Lake Red Wings by a score of 4-3 to win the West Coast Senior Hockey League championship. A championship which they lost to Deer Lake last year in the seventh game of a seven-game series.

Deer Lake, defending Herder Memorial Trophy champions, put up a spirited defence of their title and left the arena with their heads held high in the certain knowledge that they had given it their best shot and that they would be back again next year.

Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, in St. John's, the Flatrock Flyers, last year's Herder Trophy finalists, defeated Outer Cove to win their tenth Avalon East Senior Hockey title in the last eleven years.

This now sets the stage for a best of five series between Corner Brook and Flatrock to determine the 2002 winner of the Herder Memorial Trophy which is emblematic of senior hockey supremacy in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Game one and two of this series is scheduled for this weekend in the Corner Brook Canada Games Centre.

Mr. Speaker, while I wish Flatrock well in the upcoming series, I wish even greater success to the Corner Brook Royals led by Coach Eddie Kearsey, and such seasoned veterans as Todd Gillingham and Darren Colbourne.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to acknowledge the achievement of Andrew Critch of Hillview. Andrew recently placed first in a provincial cadet public speaking contest. He is a member of 567 Air Cadet Squadron in Clarenville.

Mr. Speaker, eighty cadets represented fifty cadet units from across the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Andrew won first place in the junior competition for ages twelve to fifteen.

Mr. Speaker, this is the third year in a row that Andrew has represented his squadron in this provincial competition. This is one in a series of prizes and achievements that Andrew has accomplished in the area of public speaking.

Mr. Speaker, Andrew exemplifies the tremendous talent that we have in this Province in our young people, and I ask this House to join with me in congratulating Andrew on his most recent achievement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this hon. House today to congratulate a local student who is a credit to her community and to her former school of Berney High in Burin. Melanie Adams, the daughter of Kurt and Marion Adams of Marystown, has been named a recipient of the Natural Science and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) Post Graduate Scholarship for 2002.

This highly competitive scholarship is valued at $34,600 over twenty-four months and is based on academic excellence, research potential, communication skills, and interpersonal and leadership abilities.

Melanie is currently completing her first year of a Doctorate Program in Biochemistry Research at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, and has excelled in her academic achievements, receiving the Ontario Government scholarship and the Beaumont scholarship.

When Melanie graduated from Berney High School in Burin, she had over $85,000 in scholarship offers from other universities, proof of her academic excellence, and I am pleased that she has continued to excel in her studies. As well, Mr. Speaker, Melanie has also excelled in the study of music and voice and, knowing her personally as a relative and friend, I know her to be a beautiful, talented young woman in every aspect.

I congratulate Melanie on her accomplishments and wish her well in all of her future academic endeavours.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday morning, I was pleased to attend the press conference at the Mount Pearl Glacier where the Canadian Hockey Association's Atlantic Centre of Excellence, together with Hockey Newfoundland & Labrador and the Mount Pearl Minor Hockey Association, announced that Mount Pearl will be hosting the 11th annual Irving Oil Challenge Cup, Atlantic Canada's Bantam Hockey Championships, at the Glacier from April 11 to April 14.

Each hockey season, 1,600 bantam hockey players throughout Atlantic Canada compete for the Irving Oil Challenge Cup. While the teams from Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick have not all been determined to date, we do wish the Newfoundland bantam champions, the St. John's Celtics, all the best. And, of course, I would be remiss if I did not wish the host team, the Mount Pearl Blades, good luck as well.

The only Newfoundland team to win the Irving Oil Challenge Cup was the St. John's Capitals who claimed the 1994 title in Grand Falls-Windsor. This year, Mount Pearl becomes the third Newfoundland community to host this prestigious tournament; the other communities being Grand Falls-Windsor in 1994 and Port aux Basques in 1998.

Congratulations to the host committee, especially to the co-chairs, Mayor David Denine and Gerard Curtis, and to all the sponsors and volunteers who have worked so diligently to make this event a tremendous success.

The host committee wishes to invite all hon. members of this House, and all hockey fans in Newfoundland and Labrador, to visit the Glacier during the tournament and give our fourteen- and fifteen-year-old players good fan support while witnessing the finest bantam hockey players in Atlantic Canada give their best to a game they all love.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise in this hon. House today to congratulate the Labrador Métis Nation on the leadership role that they have taken in hosting a symposium on tourism in Port Hope Simpson to promote and identify economic development opportunities on the South Coast of Labrador.

Entitled "A Métis Tour: Appraising the Past, Embracing The Future", this symposium, which starts today and will also take place tomorrow, will explore the possibilities for development in tourism in the area as well as promote local artists with displays by various Métis artists and feature local entertainment.

Mr. Speaker, the symposium will also feature workshops and plenary sessions that explore the links between the Métis culture and tourism.

I congratulate the Labrador Métis Nation and their president, Mr. Todd Russell, on conducting this symposium. As this Province celebrates Access North-Labrador 2002, I am sure this will increase tourism awareness and promote the development of this industry on the southeast coast of Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

Tomorrow, March 21, marks the 42nd anniversary of the day in 1960 when more than seventy peaceful demonstrators against apartheid were killed and over 180 were injured in South Africa.

The General Assembly of the United Nations has designated March 21, 2002, as the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador joins with others who will be celebrating this day.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is committed to the belief that equal opportunity and treatment should exist for all people. Every resident of our Province has a right to realize his or her full potential, regardless of race, colour, national or ethnic origin, and live at all times in conditions of dignity, respect and peace.

The elimination of racial discrimination and racism can be accomplished if we allow ourselves to live with understanding and respect for those around us. This is a social and moral responsibility of us all.

Mr. Speaker, I would take this opportunity to commend the work of the Newfoundland and Labrador Human Rights Association in this area. Their message, and the Province's message, is that discrimination is a serious social problem experienced by people worldwide. It is important that we stand up for those who have been discriminated against, and work together so we can live in a society where all of us are seen as equals.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly, on behalf of all members on this side of the House, we join with the minister and I am sure all members present, in recognizing International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

It is imperative, Mr. Speaker, that, as all members of society, we consider important at all times the issue of discrimination. We must also keep in mind that Canada is one of the leading nations worldwide in the acceptance and the receiving of convention refugees. Therefore, many of our citizens, permanent residents and landed immigrants are those individuals who come from a variety of races and various ethnic origins. It is an important issue, and we, too, want to join with the minister in recognizing the good work of the Newfoundland and Labrador Human Rights Association as they deal with this very important issue. It is imperative, as I have mentioned, that we always remember the importance of the issue of discrimination in our society.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We rise in support of the ministerial statement as well. I think, as the minister pointed out in the statement, there is a responsibility, both socially and morally, for all of us. As we tune in to watch the evening news or read the papers we can see that much of the suffering in the world today is caused by discrimination and racism. Sadly, it is not just in other parts of the world either, Mr. Speaker, it is not foreign. We have racism and discrimination in our backyards as well.

I have in my office in Labrador, for many years now -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I have in my office, in Labrador, a poster that I think very well describes a bunch of children playing in a sandbox, and they are all of different origins. The caption says: They can play together, but can they work together?

I think that says a lot, Mr. Speaker, because discrimination and racism are not things that we are born with. They are things that we learn as we grow, and it is up to all of us in society to help stamp that out whenever we encounter it.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance. The Auditor General, a very competent chartered accountant hired by this hon. House to provide an independent assessment of our Province's finances, has expressed concern that government is, in fact, misleading the people of our Province. In her annual report the Auditor General also states that the Budget information published by government focuses on an incomplete picture.

My question for the Minister of Finance: Will she commit today to follow recommendation 2.2 of the Auditor General's Report and present a budget tomorrow that is prepared on the accrual basis and includes all government entities?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think, for the record, it is important to note, in contradiction to what the Leader of the Opposition said, that the Auditor General has said that Newfoundland and Labrador has some of the best financial statements in the country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, again, as was mentioned just last week, not only do we have some of the best financial statements but we have been asked to present at a conference on accountability measures, quality assurance and best practices in the country, and Newfoundland and Labrador are actually presenting some of their policies and procedures.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows, as do the people of the Province, that all of our affairs are tabled in the House under the Public Accounts. There is nothing hidden. As much as they want to portray that there is something hidden, there is nothing hidden. It is all tabled before the people of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, in contradiction to what the Minister of Finance said, I must remind her that the Auditor General said that we were the most, least accountable government in the entire country.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General, in her last report, said that four Crown agencies had unlawfully borrowed $7.1 million, contrary to the Financial Administration Act. She also stated that there is an increase during the past two years of significant breaches of this act, which is one of our most important pieces of legislation.

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Finance confirm that she and her government will no longer continue to break the law and carry on with their uncontrollable spending spree?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, all of our transactions, we believe and have stood by them, and we appreciate and acknowledge the role of the Auditor General. I will say again, to contradict what the Leader of the Opposition says - and you can ask the Auditor General this herself or anybody can ask her - she states that we have some of the best financial statements in the country, Mr. Speaker. She also has acknowledged, Mr. Speaker, that we have a plan in place with respect to our accountability, our financial statements, our tabling of strategic plans, all of that, and she is well aware of it. She has known it. She has also acknowledged, over the past number of years, the measures that this government has taken to address such significant problems as our unfunded pension liabilities. All of this, in fact, is headed in the right direction, and we are confident that this is good financial management.

We also say again, very clearly, and we have been consistent, that we have not, as the Member Opposite says, broken the law. We have followed the law, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to accept recommendations. We have made some of the suggestions and recommendations that she has offered in the past and we will continue to do that. But, Mr. Speaker, let's be clear: we have not broken the law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador read the Auditor General's report. It is there in black and white. They have, in fact, broken the law, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province, and in particular the people of Labrador, are extremely concerned that tomorrow, in her Budget, the Minister of Finance will read the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund to the tune of $100 million, to fix her government's mismanagement of our finances.

Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Finance commit to us today that she will not take a cash grab from a fund which is set up under the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund Act, solely for transportation purposes, and break a sacred trust with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador - particularly the people of Labrador - and use it for unauthorized purposes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would invite the member opposite to ask the members on this side of the House from Labrador what this government's commitment is and has been to the people of Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: They don't have any members.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Because again, Mr. Speaker, they do not have any members from Labrador. We do have members and we respond to their needs, and will continue to do so.

Mr. Speaker, I will also say to the Leader of the Opposition, with all of the very important issues facing our Province today, knowing that the Budget Speech is tomorrow, is that the best you can do, I say to the Leader of the Opposition?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, his Finance critic asked the same question three days last week, for the four days we were open in the House of Assembly. I will say, Mr. Speaker, to the members opposite and to the people of the Province, I invite them all to listen tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. to the Budget Speech. I will be happy to read out and explain and answer any questions associated with any of the budgetary initiatives we announce tomorrow.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I must remind the Minister of Finance that I did, in fact, attempt to ask one of the members from Labrador - actually, the Minister for Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs - last week. The Premier would not let him speak, if I remember correctly.

Mr. Speaker, given this government's track record of poor accountability, fiscal mismanagement, and repeatedly breaking the laws of this Province, I ask the Minister of Finance: How does she expect the people of our Province to believe the smoke and mirrors Budget that she will present tomorrow?

Minister, if in fact you say $30 million, will it really be $350 million, as the Auditor General says? Or, if you say $50 million, will it really be $500 million? All I ask you, Minister, is: Just tell people the truth.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am interested in the line of questioning by the very hon. Leader of the Opposition, who has consistently, again today, shown the ability to use language in here, and attribute it to someone else, that has never been used.

I challenge the Leader of the Opposition to find, in writing, anywhere where the Auditor General has ever said that the government has misled the people of the Province. That is what he says in here, and uses the office of an officer of this House, an hon. officer of this House, appointed by all of us, and he uses his language and attributes it to her.

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that it is consistent in how he is abusing the privileges of this House and abusing all of us as members. It is consistent with the point of order raised at the beginning of the session today. The hon. member knows, because it is quite audible on the tapes, that he slandered three current judges in Newfoundland and Labrador, and anyone who wants to listen to the tapes can hear it loud and clear.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

And when asked, when brought to his attention by the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General, rather than stand like the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, and apologize, he refuses to even acknowledge that he said it, even though the tapes have it loud and clear what he said, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

To conclude the point, I challenge again the Leader of the Opposition to find anywhere in writing from the Auditor General a phrase that says that government broke the law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I accept the challenge of the hon. Premier and I refer him to the CBC Morning Show on February 4, wherein the Auditor General, in her response said, "People should know that it's misleading...."

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member now is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: The Premier wanted the evidence. He is about to give it to him.

 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: The Auditor General has said, in writing, that it is misleading.

Thank you, Premier, in writing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier is on a point of order?

PREMIER GRIMES: No, Mr. Speaker, I was going to respond. The Leader of the Opposition made -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I want to remind hon. members that Question Period is not a period for debate, but a period to ask questions. Of course, I did not detect a question in the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's - he made a statement, but it certainly was not a question.

If members have questions, they ought to ask the question and certainly not make statements because it is not a period for debate. That is why we have always had a rule in this House where preambles are not permitted on supplementary questions.

The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance. I say to the minister: For the very first time, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will be paying provincial income tax, even though they will not have to pay federal income tax. I ask the minister, why is this happening?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that last year, 2001, the federal government de-linked from the provincial government and now, instead of having a tax on tax, we have tax on income. The member knows this.

The member also knows that we have announced a three-year tax reduction plan. The first year we implemented the plan there was a $45 million reduction; the second year $18 million, or approximately, altogether, about a $60 million reduction. Mr. Speaker, the member also knows that the third year of the taxation plan we have deferred because of our fiscal situation, and we have committed to the Province that we will carry on with that program.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that we have de-linked from the federal government taxation system and that now we have our own taxation system based on our own reductions. The member opposite knows that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister must not understand the question I asked. Credits, Mr. Speaker, could wipe out the federal income tax but it is not wiping out the provincial income tax in all cases.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: For example, I say to the minister, the federal spousal maximum is $6,243; provincially it is $6,055. The disability is $6,000 federally; it is $4,233 provincially. Students have $400 a month attending post-secondary federally; provincial it is $200 a month.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get his question. He is on a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Why is the minister forcing this extra burden on the families of non-working and low income spouses, on students, and on the disabled?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I just got through explaining to the member opposite. I could not quite hear what he was saying. I have to ask him to speak louder the next time so I can hear it all.

Mr. Speaker, what I will say is that the member opposite knows, as do all of the people of the Province, that we now are de-linked from the federal government taxation and there are different thresholds. I am not acknowledging that ours is the same as theirs. We both know that there are different thresholds.

Mr. Speaker, again, as I would say, any individual and many individuals have called the Department of Finance asking about the changes in taxation. We will offer the same today in the House as we do individually. If you need to be shown, or if you need some guidance in how the two formulas have de-linked, we would be happy to do that with you through our officials in the department.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, I have prepared thousands and thousands of tax returns over the years. I am very familiar, I might add.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Nothing. I spoke to accountants and I spoke to individuals. I say to the minster, I know of people who are filing their income tax this year with less income than last year and they are paying more provincial income tax than last year on less income, I say to the minister.

An eighty-six-year-old man, whose son I spoke with today -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I suggest he get to his question quickly.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am having difficulty hearing myself with the noise they are making on the other side of the House. I am having difficulty hearing myself.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I am not sure if the minister does not hear me or does not understand what I am saying. I am not convinced.

An eighty-six-year-old man who is filing his income tax this year will pay more provincial income tax this year on taking the same exact income and applying to last year's form. I want to say to the minister, if the taxes that she is proposing is a tax break, she is giving on one hand, and for many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, she is clawing back on the other hand. I want to ask her: Will she correct those inequities in her Budget tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President to Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know about the volume, but I got the question.

I can say that over the last three years, the provincial tax savings have actually - it is clear that we have made improvements so that people are actually keeping more money. We have actually not only put more money back into the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians -

AN HON. MEMBER: Over $100 million.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It will be over $100 million when it is fully implemented, but at the moment, in phase three, it is approximately $60 million. The percentage of savings is about 12.9 per cent up from 8.5 per cent in 1999.

Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite would love to leave the impression that it is not working and it is a dismal failure, but there have been actual savings put forward and achieved through the changes -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to now conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - that we have made from de-linking from the federal government versus the old tax-on-tax system.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services. Last year the Department of Health was advised by the health boards in this Province that the budgets they were given last year were inadequate. The minister ignored those comments and in September told this House that health boards were in financial trouble.

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow the Budget is coming down, but over the last couple of days the minister's office has been telling health boards that the budgets that they have submitted this year will not be approved as they are submitted. So will the minister tell this House today what additional cuts she is expecting health boards to make next year?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, my office is in very frequent communication with the health boards around this Province because we recognize the difficult challenge that they face in trying to deliver health services throughout the Province within the context of the finances that they have available.

Starting from the Budget time last year - this time last year the boards were given an additional $50 million to run their operations. The member opposite is accurate in saying that they did indicate they would have difficulty meeting that challenge, and that they felt they required more funding; but, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to recognize that they have been very successful in their efforts this year to contain their expenditures. We see evidence of that, of course, in the announcement just this Friday past when the Health Care Corporation of this Province, the largest health board in this Province, has indicated that they were able to deliver a balanced budget.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: I think that speaks to their ability to be able to deliver high quality services and also to live within their fiscal capacity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, it is no trouble to balance the Budget if you are going to cut services and eliminate services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, in yesterday's Speech from the Throne we heard the government say that they were going to introduce, in the coming months, a new strategic plan. We have been waiting on this side of the House to understand what the existing plan is. We did not know there was one.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Budget Speech indicates that the new strategic plan was going to talk about the priorities for action. It was going to talk about the strategic objectives, and it was going to talk about some very specific performance objectives. I ask the minister: Would she not agree that it would be more realistic, more reasonable, and a normal, logical, business practice to lay out the plan before you ask boards to develop a budget? Before tomorrow's Budget comes down, wouldn't she acknowledge that it would be more appropriate to have the plan in advance of the Budget?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I just get a little bit confused when I hear very conflicting information from the same source. When I look to the comments from the Member for Trinity North, which were spoken publicly in April of last year when he indicated that he was looking forward to regional health forums, that he felt that government would be able to build a vision for health and community services for the future, that he felt that a lot could come from this process, that it was going to help work with our community partners. Mr. Speaker, which is it the member really believes, that the strategic process we have gone through to develop a health plan for this Province is a necessary and a beneficial one, or is it one that, as he is suggesting now, maybe shouldn't have been done and we should be concentrating on other things? Which is it, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services and involves the 6,000 home support workers in the Province, Mr. Speaker, mostly women, who provide services in hundreds of communities throughout the Province. Now that the Supreme Court of Newfoundland has upheld the Human Rights Commission ruling that the government, through the minister's department, is the prime author, supporter and funder of home care services and therefore the employer of home support workers. Will the minister confirm that the government will acknowledge that, repeal the legislation declaring the person in receipt of the service as being employer, and allow for free, collective bargaining in this sector and allow these workers to bargain collectively with their true employer, the government, as do other public servants?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite fully appreciates, the decision that was made under the Human Rights Code and the Human Rights legislation is one that is much, much broader than the interpretations that would be made under the Labour Relations Code.

Mr. Speaker, we are currently, as a government, looking at the decision that has been reached with respect to this one specific case under the Human Rights Code and we have not made any decision at this time what we should do in response to that. Of course, one avenue that is open to us is to appeal the decision; but, as I say, Mr. Speaker, at this time we are still reviewing this decision and it will be some time before we will indicate what we are going to do in response to it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am shocked, Mr. Speaker, that the minister would take this approach to the 6,000 people involved. Five years ago, in the 1997 Budget, the government committed to providing workers' compensation benefits for home care workers in the Province. That has yet to be done, Mr. Speaker.

Can the home care workers in this Province expect, in tomorrow's Budget, a statement from this government that there will indeed be workers' compensation benefits for this group of workers who expose themselves to injury in the workplace, just as every other worker does in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, this government places very high value on the contribution that home support workers make throughout this Province. In the Budget of last year - because I really should not speak of what is in the Budget this year. That is the job of the Minister of Finance, and we in this House, as well as people throughout the Province, will hear tomorrow what the plans are for our Budget for next year. Mr. Speaker, in the Budget of 2001, this government actually increased the amount of funding to home support workers by the sum of $7.4 million. That was a tremendous increase in the benefits for home support workers, and that was provided to workers themselves to bring their level of benefits and compensation to a level of approximately $7 an hour.

Mr. Speaker, that was a very significant increase and a big investment in home support workers in this Province. We have demonstrated with our action, our commitment to this industry.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Government Services and Lands. Minister, the trade practices and licensing division of your department have set the minimum required returns for gross gaming related proceeds of 10 per cent for the six-month period of July to December of last year, and 15 per cent from January to June of this year. I ask the minister if this is a regulation that applies to all gaming operations, without exception.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is a regulation that applies to all Bingo operations.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister: Minister, what works in St. John's or Mount Pearl certainly may not work in rural communities such as Little Catalina, Charleston, or Lethbridge.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: I think the latest census report will verify that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, does the minister realize that the enactment of those regulations will mean the closure of Royal Canadian Legions, Lions Clubs and, most importantly, Volunteer Fire Departments in some rural communities? Minister, where do you suggest the Volunteer Fire Department of Little Catalina get monies for gas and equipment to provide for a service that you demand when you take $11,000 from the only source of revenue on the -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: - fifteenth of next month when you intend to revoke their Bingo licence?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, we have a real problem with Bingo operations in our Province and we are trying to do something about it. Bingos bring in revenues of about $50 million a year. It is big business for some people, and it is only returning about $5 million a year for charities, and many operations do not manage to return that. We have Bingo operations in the City of St. John's that are bringing in total revenues of close to $2 million a year and returning only about a couple of hundred -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. NOEL: - returning less than a couple of hundred thousand a year for charity. We are trying to do something about that, but we do not want to hurt these small Bingo operations throughout many communities in the Province that are doing a good job of raising money for charities in their area and they are not paying out excessive amounts in rental fees, in wages and that sort of thing. We are trying to find a way to deal with those kind of operations differently from the kind of operations that are generating tremendous revenues but not enough return for charities. It is a difficult job. We did a poll recently, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now conclude his answer.

MR. NOEL: The poll indicated that the people of our Province, some 86 per cent of respondents, indicated that they felt that we were either requesting enough or not enough, but not too much as a return to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege that I would like to take a few minutes to explain to Your Honour and to the House.

Mr. Speaker, I think here in our Legislature we are bound by a code that suggests that, because we are not to be challenged, that we are hon. members, that we operate on an honour system, and what we say in here is accurate and truthful.

Mr. Speaker, in the realm of political debate we can suggest certain things from our own point of view, and that is fair in political debate; but, Mr. Speaker, what we have witnessed here repeatedly, and again today on a couple of occasions, particularly by the Leader of the Opposition, is an abuse of the Office of the Auditor General. That is extremely important, and I would like to take a minute to lay out the case.

Mr. Speaker, the point is this: The Auditor General has written and acknowledged that, with respect to the deficit of the Province, that the Province has reported a cash deficit of $30 million last year and an actual total deficit of $350 million through the public accounts; and, she has acknowledged that the accounting of that was accurate, done in accordance with all proper accounting practices, and signed her name to it. Signed her name to it!

One other thing that she did very instructively for all of us last year, Mr. Speaker, was to point out that on three or four occasions, maybe five or six occasions, out of hundreds of thousands of transactions done in a year, that several of them were done in contravention of what is referred to as the Financial Administration Act. That was pointed out to the officials. They accepted the interpretation, changed their practices, and thanked the Auditor General for pointing out a mistake. Pointing out a mistake, Mr. Speaker.

Those are the facts. The Leader of the Opposition today, to give credibility, to try to give credibility, to a political argument that he wants to make about mismanagement and misleading the Province and breaking the law, used that kind of language, Mr. Speaker, which is nowhere to be found in any Report of the Auditor General.

The Auditor General has never, ever, signed her name to a report that in it anywhere suggests that anyone in the government misled the people of the Province about the financial state of affairs in Newfoundland and Labrador. She has never, ever, signed her name to a document that has that comment in it. It is not there to be found.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) CBC Radio.

PREMIER GRIMES: And CBC Radio, making some commentary and interview, is not signing her name to an Auditor General's report with the comment in it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: This leads to the whole reason for a very serious point of privilege.

The other thing is this: Let me say it again for clarity, and you will be the judge, as will the people of the Province be the judge, as to who is being serious and who is playing politics. The Leader of the Opposition today said: Stand up, Minister of Finance; admit that you are breaking the law, that you have broken the law.

Mr. Speaker, what I have described again is the Auditor General, a respected, hon. officer of this House, who has reported to the government that there were some transactions that were in violation of the Financial Administration Act. The same report suggests that, upon those officials being informed that they were in contravention of the Financial Administration Act, they changed their practice, made the adjustments, because they did not intentionally do it, and nobody was trying to mislead anybody and nobody was breaking the law. There were a few errors made, Mr. Speaker, that were corrected upon being pointed out to the government.

To take that kind of a serious report from an Officer of the House and to then try to suggest, and to use inflammatory language and politically charged language, and attribute it, not to himself -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: This is the whole point, and they want to make fun and make light of it, Mr. Speaker, because obviously they do not recognize the seriousness and severity of it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the point is this, quite fair for the Leader of the Opposition to get up and say: I interpret that as meaning you broke the law. But, he stands up and says: the Auditor General has stated that you have broken the law. The Auditor General has said no such thing. I believe it is a very severe affront to the Officer of the House, and to all of us, and it is an abuse of our privileges if we are to sit here, Mr. Speaker, day after day and hear that kind of political rhetoric and have it attributed it to an Officer of House as if that officer spoke those words.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to look very closely and seriously at this issue because it is one thing to understand that someone does not know the rules of the House, is having a hard time learning the rules of the House, or does not respect the rules of the House, but we should not be expected to sit here day after day after day and have our privileges abused and the privileges of an Officer of the House, like the Auditor General, taken into total abuse and totally misrepresented for the purposes of making political arguments. We will gladly debate the politics of it at any point in time, but we should not bring into it the reputation of an Officer of the House like the Auditor General.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to look into it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with two issues raised by the Premier. First of all -

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No, sir. The Opposition House Leader is about to embarrass your Premier. That is what I say to the Minister of Fisheries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: First of all, the Premier -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am on a point of privilege, Tom. This takes precedence.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is aware that it is 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday. Normally we would get into the private member's resolution but I do not see a private member's resolution on the Order Paper, but I understand that there is an agreement that we will do it.

However, we are now on a point of privilege and I would like to hear what the other members say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I would also like to point out too, that when a matter of privilege comes before this House, whether it is on Private Members' Day or any other parliamentary day, it takes precedence over the Order Paper.

Mr. Speaker, two issues I would like to deal with, first of all, raised by the Premier. The first deals with the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition and the Premier trying to interpret what the Leader of the Opposition said. The Leader of Opposition quoted correctly, and let me quote for him on the first issue when he talks about what the Auditor General did or did not say.

First of all, and I will quote, this is the former Auditor General, herself: When it goes back to the issue of accountability people should know that it is misleading to tell people that we have a $30 million deficit, because it is really $350 million. She used the word misleading, Premier, nobody else. The Leader of the Opposition, in doing his duty in asking you and your ministers questions, correctly, and I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, correctly put in context her words. Secondly, talks about breaking the law. The Premier says misuse of words.

Could he please explain to me, and to the members of this House, to the people in the gallery, to the people in the public, and to the people in the press gallery, what is the difference, or is there a difference, that if you contravene the Financial Administration Act, which the Auditor General said: Our review of the four special warrants which were issued on March 28 and March 30 of 2001, indicated that they were issued in contravention of the Financial Administration Act.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: Is there a difference in breaking the law and contravening the law? That is what I want to know.

Thirdly, the Premier alluded again to the Leader of the Opposition's question. I will quote directly for him: This act is one of the most significant pieces of legislation and it deals with non-compliance. So we have contravention of the act, as outlined by the Auditor General, and non-compliance. What does that mean? That the act was not followed and therefore it was broken.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: The Premier has alluded to the fact about the Leader of the Opposition's non-understanding of the rules of the House. Let me point out a couple to him. In the practice of privilege, for example, in the House, I guess the most senior person in Canada in terms of the Canadian parliament experience on breaches of privilege comes in this book called Parliamentary Privilege in Canada by Joseph Maingot, Q.C. Here is what he says - here is what privilege is, first of all, Premier, for your information. A prima facie case of privilege, in the parliamentary sense, is one where evidence on its face as outlined by a member is sufficiently strong for the House to be asked to send it to a committee to investigate whether the privileges of the House have been breached or contempt has concurred and report to the House. That has not happened, and there is no sufficient case provided by the Premier, flying by the backseat of his pants on this issue, to support the prima facie case for privilege.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to privilege in Canada - and this is extremely important - under the heading Maingot talks about debate on the question of privilege and the Canadian experience. He says: In the Canadian House of Commons questions of privilege are frequently raised but extremely few are found to be prima facie cases. Furthermore - I suggest to you that this is where the Premier falls into this category. He goes on to say: Furthermore, members have a tendency to use the rubric privilege to raise what is really a matter of order, not a matter of privilege, or in the words of the Speaker of the House of Commons, a grievance against the government.

What is normally questions of privilege, the Premier has not outlined whatsoever, in any way, shape or form establish a prima facie case whatsoever. Let me just say this, for the record, this is extremely important, Mr. Speaker. When you rule on this I would like you to take it under advisement or take under consideration, reminding all members what privilege is, but for the record: The second Question Period, when the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Humber West, stood in this House the Deputy Premier stood on a point of privilege, which you later ruled out of order, to what purpose? Trying to create an impression that the member does not understand the rules of the House. Since that time we have seen three or four other occasions where the Government House Leader has stood, even today, to try to create the same thing. Then the Premier, again, stands today wasting the time of this House with nonsense motions of privilege which are really points of order, grievances, or disputes between two members.

Mr. Speaker, let me ask you to do this if you will. In considering this motion of privilege, when you do, could you please advise the government that their parliamentary, political stunts are just not working?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will take the point raised by the hon. Premier under advisement and rule on it at a later date.

Private Members' Day

 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is Wednesday and this is Private Member's Day. I know that we do not have a motion on the Order Paper, but I understand that there is an agreement that the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis has a resolution that we will be debating this afternoon.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to read into the House a private member's resolution that was presented in this House before Christmas. For the record, I will read into the House the resolution now:

WHEREAS the residents of dozens of communities in Newfoundland and Labrador rely on ferries for transportation; and

WHEREAS seven of the twelve government-owned vessels in the ferry fleet are older than twenty-five years of age; and

WHEREAS the normal life expectancy of a ferry vessel is about twenty-five years, as reported by the Auditor General in her 2000 Annual Report; and

WHEREAS there has not been a significant upgrade of the Province's fleet of marine vessels since 1993, with the exception of the Captain Earl Winsor and the Ahelaid; and

WHEREAS the Captain Earl Winsor, purchased from the Government of Canada for $300,000 in October of 1997 when it was twenty-five years old, required refit to meet Canadian standards and departmental requirements at a total cost of $3.6 million; and

WHEREAS the Ahelaid, purchased from Estonia for $764,000 plus $166,000 in custom duties in May of 1999 when it was thirteen years old, also required refit, which is not yet complete and which will cost in excess of $4.1 million - which I understand now, Mr. Speaker, is up to over $6.1 million; and

WHEREAS many in this Province who rely on ferries are often deprived of acceptable ferry service, or any ferry service at all, because the vessels are broken down or unable to operate; and

WHEREAS the provincial government in the 1980s, while following a policy of constructing ferries at the Marystown Shipyard, built the Gallipoli, the Beaumont Hamel and the Flanders, and planned to build a sister ship to the Flanders, though that project was cancelled after the Liberal government was elected in 1989; and

WHEREAS constructing modern ferries at the Marystown Shipyard instead of purchasing old and derelict vessels would ensure the Province has a reliable fleet while also revitalizing the struggling local shipbuilding industry, stimulating spinoff economic activity, increasing employment and boosting provincial government revenues.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House call upon the provincial government to implement a vessel replacement policy of constructing new ferries at shipyards in Newfoundland and Labrador instead of purchasing vessels from outside the Province.

That is the private member's resolution which I expect will have a fair amount of debate here in this House of Assembly today. I expect the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation may speak to it. I hope he does, actually, Mr. Speaker.

With respect to this private member's resolution, Mr. Speaker, when this was presented in this House before Christmas, I received some letters of support from various towns within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; one from Marystown, copied to me, and one from Wabana on Bell Island. There is a lot of interest in this private member's resolution because, of course, Bell Island and the problems they have had over the past with respect to a continuous service. They had many breakdowns over there this past fall, the minister would agree. Two of the vessels were off on dry dock. They had to bring in a replacement boat which was not suitable, which could not take the high winds. Any time there was any amount of wind at all, basically, she had to close down and the people on Bell Island could not get back and forth for hospital appointments, for work commitments and what have you, Mr. Speaker. The people on Bell Island are very interested in this private member's resolution.

Mr. Speaker, this is something that this party has been promoting for some time. The Member for Baie Verte, in December of 2000, promoted a policy whereby the government would implement a policy for a replacement of ferries within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. In November of 2000, I, as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and looking at the Auditor General's report at that point in time, wanted a vessel replacement policy put in place by this Administration, or the government, similar to the one that was there in place in the 1980s, that this Administration, this government, the Liberal government decided to cancel in 1989 when the former Premier, Clyde Wells - and many of the ministers there now were there at that point in time - they cancelled it. Again, that affected the ferry system in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I find it a bit ironic, Mr. Speaker, that in the Speech from the Throne yesterday, when the government knew full well that this was going to be discussed in this House of Assembly today, that the government announced a policy of sorts. We really do not know what it is, there are no details, but I want to just refer to it here and read into the record what was said here in the House of Assembly yesterday from the Throne Speech. It said, "My Government will also be initiating a new vessel replacement and refurbishment program on a cost-effective basis to address the needs of our ferry operations."

Mr. Speaker, what does that mean? I really don't know at this point in time. I expect we will have to wait for the Budget to come down to see exactly what the minister says. It is interesting to note that there are a number of programs that can be tapped into from the federal government, basically, Mr. Speaker, that can help with respect to putting a policy of this nature in place in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Other provinces have done it; Nova Scotia for one, Mr. Speaker.

It is interesting to note that last fall in the House of Assembly, when I was asking the minister questions with respect to the Public Tender Act, and when I was speaking on the changes to the Public Tender Act, that the present minister brought in last fall, to basically purchase ferries or services, if there was a breakdown or emergency situations, without having to go to public tender, basically to circumvent the Public Tender Act, which I opposed at the time and still do, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to note, at that time - and I don't understand if this would be one of the programs that the minister would tap into, because he was so opposed last fall. Basically, the program back in the 1980s, if I understood it, was that the government associated with a private industry for the private industry to build these three vessels, the Flanders, the Gallipoli, and the Beaumont Hamel, and they would lease them back for extended periods of time, which put new vessels in the system.

Now, the minister seemed to have a great opposition to that. He seemed to be very opposed to it at that point in time. So, I would expect that won't be one of the programs that he would use, that he would partner with private industry to do this. Now, unless he does a flip-flop, of course, which could very well be. It is not unusual for this government to flip-flop, Mr. Speaker. So, maybe they will look at that program.

Mr. Speaker, again I wanted to mention that this policy has been a policy of the Opposition for some years now. We have promoted it many, many times. As I said, the Member for Baie Verte promoted it when he was the critic for Works, Services and Transportation. I have done it. I have asked questions in the House many times, put out many releases on it, Mr. Speaker. So we have promoted this.

I am glad, Mr. Speaker, to be able to stand in this House today and say, again, that the Administration, the government, are finally starting to listen to this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, they have adopted another policy of ours.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Now, I have to say, too, Mr. Speaker, while I am on that, with respect to our policies. I saw the Premier stand in this House of Assembly - as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I went to Hansard, so I have a copy of Hansard. The Premier has said in this House of Assembly that oftentimes we have no policies. Then, on the other hand, he will come out and say, you do have policies. We will use all of your policies before the next election and then you won't have anything to campaign on, Mr. Speaker. So again, here we go; it is a flip-flop.

Just for information purposes, Mr. Speaker, some of the policies that have been adopted by this Administration that they were vehemently opposed to during the last election - I will just name six or seven. There are a lot more than that, Mr. Speaker, but some of the ones that are probably more interesting.

The provincial income tax: We proposed a provincial income tax cut in the last election, and, of course, the Administration at the time, all the group on the other side, most of them, Mr. Speaker, and the present ministers, opposed it. They said: How can we afford this? Well, Mr. Speaker, a couple of months after the election, what do we have? A provincial income tax cut. They saw the light in that, and basically bring in more revenue to the Province by reducing the tax.

MR. SULLIVAN: They don't need (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

Mr. Speaker, a very interesting one: We said in the last election we would cut and eliminate the payroll tax. Again, opposition from the government side of the House. Cannot do it. Where will we get the money? Mr. Speaker, it should be remembered that this government are the people that brought in the payroll tax in the first place; a tax on jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador. Shortly after the election, Mr. Speaker, what did they do? They proposed and tried to cut the payroll tax.

Increase the minimum wage; we proposed that in the last election. Again, this government vehemently opposed it. What did they do last fall, last year? Increased it.

Mr. Speaker, we are pleased and proud that they have been listening to us and taking our policies, but please do not get your ministers on the Open Line shows and in the media and in this House of Assembly saying that we do not have policies when, what do they do? They adopt ours, every second day, whenever they can, Mr. Speaker, because, of course, they are void of ideas themselves. They have been there too long, Mr. Speaker. They are too complacent. That is what the problem is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: They established a Child Advocate. What did we propose in the last election? We proposed that very thing, but it could not be done. Now government has listened to us again. I do not know what they are doing on that side of the House, coming up with ideas themselves, Mr. Speaker.

Now, others: no forced amalgamation. We put that in our policy manual last election and now the government has come out and said no forced amalgamation. I do not need to elaborate on it. I am sure others will, Mr. Speaker.

Also, the ban of bulk water exports, Mr. Speaker. We were opposed to that, still are opposed to it. The present Premier, who is opposed to it, was not opposed to it, is opposed to it - flip-flopping all over the place, Mr. Speaker. Again, they finally came down and adopted our policies.

The new Freedom of Information Act which we just passed in the House of Assembly, in our last policy manual, Mr. Speaker; what this Administration basically had nothing to do with; did not want to have anything to do with it. The list goes on, Mr. Speaker, but we will not go there too much further.

Back to the policy itself, with respect to adopting a vessel replacement policy, Mr. Speaker. People in the Province should know that there are basically twenty ferries here in this Province to provide service to sixteen interprovincial ferry services. They service some forty isolated communities and/or islands in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. These ferries also service some 30,000 people in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is also interesting to note that the ferries themselves carry over 800,000 people each year.

AN HON. MEMBER: Eight hundred thousand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eight hundred thousand, that is the figure, and some 400,000 vehicles in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have vessels here, Mr. Speaker, that are in pretty poor condition, really, in the Province. We have twelve government-owned vessels; eight privately-owned, from my understanding; and, according to the Auditor General, fifteen of the twenty vessels that are in the system are twenty-five to forty-three years old. Mr. Speaker, I am making the case for why we need a vessel replacement policy.

It is good to see that the government has agreed that we need a vessel replacement policy, but they have not given us the details. Really, it is hard to comment on something from that side of the House when they put it out there in a very vague way, what they are proposing. I will refer to the comments that I was going to make with respect to this issue.

As I said, fifteen of the twenty vessels are twenty-five to forty-three years old, and are very often breaking down, Mr. Speaker. Now the minister, as I said, last year, pushed through the House of Assembly changes to the Public Tender Act that could allow the government to circumvent the Public Tender Act to allow them to buy services and basically, in my mind, to purchase a vessel, if they really wanted to, without going to the Public Tender Act. I have a problem with that. Again, he will probably get up and try to say that we do not want to support the people in the various communities I was speaking about; that we do not want to give them any service, and whatever the case may be. That is his usual response to my questions and statements in the House of Assembly, which is not the case, Mr. Speaker. We have been fighting for this for years and finally, we might see something. Hopefully, it is acceptable. Hopefully, it is something that we can accept.

AN HON. MEMBER: We will wait and see the details.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, we will wait to see the details.

Now, the Auditor General has said that -

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will go on for - does anyone oppose it, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member got twenty minutes after and he has taken his time. I would not want to deprive him of his regular time, but we gave him twenty minutes after to clue up. He is going to -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will clue up in my closing remarks at the end of debate, and I will make some of the comments that I had proposed to make at this point in time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me today to rise and to speak to the resolution that has been put forward by the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis. I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute and to compliment the many people who are involved in the ferry operations within this Province. Our crews and the people involved in the day-to-day administration of the ferry services in this Province do a tremendous job.

As a matter of fact, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Member for Terra Nova and I, last summer, went across to St. Brendan's Island. As a matter of fact, we went across on that old vessel, the old relic that the Opposition continuously refers to. If we listened to them, our ferries in Newfoundland are falling apart and they are not fit to be on, and all that sort of stuff, but that is the Opposition and I guess that is your role, to paint a bleak picture of what is happening in Newfoundland and Labrador, which is not very, very accurate.

The minister and I traveled across on the ferry to St. Brendan's Island, the Greenbay Transport, which is one of the older vessels in our fleet that provides services to the people of St. Brendan's. As a matter of fact, I was really, really impressed with the service that was provided to this island by this older vessel and I made a comment to the crew and the captain how impressed I was with the service, and how impressed I was with how it was maintained. As a matter of fact, the vessel was so well kept and so clean that you could actually eat off the floor. It was an older vessel but it was well run, well equipped. As a matter of fact, we sailed across in the nighttime. When we landed back on the mainland I said to the captain: I would like to go on this vessel for another fifteen or twenty hours because it was such a pleasant trip.

When we hear the Opposition talking about the old relics that we have, these vessels are well maintained. The system of our ferries within this Province go through very rigorous inspections by CSI and they have to go in for their annual refits. Only when they meet the strict guidelines that are set out by Transport Canada are they in operation. The picture is not nearly as bad as painted my critic and by the Opposition members.

When we talk about the major breakdowns, and all the breakdowns on the ferries in Newfoundland and Labrador, up to the present time there have been only five breakdowns on the ferries in this Province, in this twelve month period. There have been only five breakdowns on the ferries. As a matter of fact, for the information of members, I think only one of our older vessels had a breakdown and that is the one that goes to Little Bay Islands. There was one breakdown on that particular ferry this year, and that was it. But in terms of a mechanical breakdown, there were only five mechanical breakdowns. Believe it or not, when we hear this great story about our old vessels and they are always broken down, the ones that we had the mechanical difficulties on this year were not our older vessels but were the ones that were built. We had two mechanical breakdowns on the Flanders, and we had mechanical breakdowns on the Beaumont Hamel, which are the newer vessels within our fleet. There have been interruptions in service to Bell Island. A lot of those interruptions had nothing to do with the vessels themselves but had to do with weather conditions.

The hon. Member for Cape St. Francis can introduce this resolution, and I consider it to be a very important resolution. I consider it to be a very important resolution for the people from the forty communities in Newfoundland and Labrador that depend on our ferry service. If he wants to make a joke out of it and laugh about it then that is entirely up to him, but the minister takes the service that we provide to the people of Little Bay Islands, St. Brendan's and all the other communities in Newfoundland, as a very serious business. We have a very dedicated staff and very dedicated people trying to provide the service. As a matter of fact, this government has bent over backwards.

I want you to believe that some of these communities that we operate those ferry services into are people that are the lifeblood of Newfoundland and Labrador. They are the primary industries. They service communities that have fish plants; Little Bay Islands, Gaultois, and these communities. Not only that, but they are providing new dollars into the economy. They are very economically viable communities and we are very interested in providing them a service. As a matter of fact, last spring I met with the managers and the people in Little Bay Islands. The fish plant is very important to that community. The department put on extra runs and we also put on extra shifts to make sure that the workers were able to get back and forth to Little Bay Islands to work in that very viable industry and in the fish plants. So this service is a very important service and the government is well aware that some of our fleet are older. If you want to do a comparison with other jurisdictions, the average age of vessels - the B.C. ferries, for example, the average age of their vessels is between thirty and thirty-five years. In the U.S., including the Washington State ferry system, most of their ferries are within thirty to thirty-five years of age. So the age of the vessel does not necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the vessel, but we have strict guidelines in terms of inspections and that sort of thing, that these vessels need to go through.

I want to remind hon. members that this government did have a vessel replacement program. Now the previous government had a vessel replacement program, and back in the 1980s they built the Beaumond Hamel and the Gallipoli. They financed them through Xerox and Canada Trust. The criticism I made in a speech to the House was that at the time the government gave the impression that these boats were built in Marystown, financed by the government, and paid for outright. They also announced the construction of the Bell Island Flanders at the end of their term, but that particular ferry was built during the Liberal Government, when we came in power in 1989. The actual boat itself was built during that time. The Liberal Government at the time did not finance that particular boat but paid cash for it, at that particular time, and did not go through the financial arrangements with Xerox and Canada Trust as the previous government had done.

What I was saying at the time was that the people of the Province should have been informed about what was happening. I was not against the way it was financed, but at the time they created the impression that these vessels were built in Marystown, paid for, and were not financed in any way. That is the criticism I had of it, that the government of the day was saying that they were building these boats. As a matter of fact, some of these boats built at that particular time - the Beaumont Hamel, for example, was built without any consultation from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, and when we put it on the Fogo Island run it was not compatible for that particular run.

I can assure you that any vessel replacement that this government has will have the full support, the full consultation, and will work with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to make sure that when we do have a vessel replacement program that it will fit the criteria of the vessels that are in our particular fleet.

There is no doubt about it, and I would be the first to admit, and I am sure that over the next period of time, as things unfold, we need a replacement for the Inch Arran, which is the ferry down in Little Bay Islands. We need a replacement for that particular vessel, and hopefully within the next year or so, and probably less than the next year or so, there probably will be a new replacement for the Inch Arran in Little Bay Islands, which is very, very important to the people of that particular part of the Province.

The other one that we need a replacement for, and the one that I sailed on - and it was a great vessel; I had a great ride on it, it was a beautiful vessel and it was a very clean and tidy vessel - is the Greenbay Transport, which is an older wooden vessel and needs to be replaced. Hopefully, over the next period of time, as we unveil our vessel replacement program, they are probably two of the vessels that we will need to replace in the system.

When the Opposition and our critics say that the vessels are run down and they not operating, we have a very, very good record. We transported roughly 750,000 passengers and 360,000 vehicles last year, and some of these vessels are operating continuously. I go to Portugal Cove quite frequently and observe what is happening on the Bell Island-Portugal Cove run. These ferries do not stop at all. The engines never stop. They load up, go to Bell Island, come back, and they never stop going; continuously going.

Those of us who grew up in rural Newfoundland, and those of us who grew up on the islands in rural Newfoundland, know that when you operate a boat so frequently, they have engines and there are bound to be mechanical problems.

In addition to the vessels that are on the regular run, we have two swing vessels which can be put into operation at any time when one of the other vessels break down. We have them strategically located around the Province to make sure that, if one of the vessels break down, the Inch Arran or one of the other vessels happen to break down, within a short period of time one of the other vessels are on the move to replace the vessel that just broke down.

One of the problems that we had last year, for example, on the Bell Island run was that we had the Flanders into Marystown for its annual refit and then one of our swing vessels developed mechanical problems and left us with just one vessel with one thruster to operate out of Bell Island and Portugal Cove, and then we had high wind conditions and tides which prevented the ferry from operating on schedule.

I recently met the hon. Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. Only last week we met with the Ferry Users Committee on Bell Island and we had a very, very productive meeting. Since I have been the minister, I have had a number of meetings with the Bell Island Ferry Users Committee. We sit down from time to time and we try to make the service much more efficient, much more effective, and much more accountable for the people on Bell Island. I must say that the relationship that we have with the Ferry Users Committee on Bell Island is tremendous. As a matter of fact, I am sure that when we hear it from the Budget, when we hear what the vessel replacement program is going to be over the next period of time, that the people on Little Bay Island, St. Brendan's, Gaultois - as a matter of fact, we have a problem in Gaultois. We have a fish plant in Gaultois that is employing some 120-odd people. We have one of the private vessels operating now to Gaultois, but we need a roll-on roll-off service. Last year we were able to provide the Sound of Islay there on a needs basis, to be able to let that fish plant operate and provide the much-needed jobs that are needed in Gaultois.

This department works very, very well with the users groups in these various communities. As a matter of fact, the number of calls that we receive to the office about the ferry services, and to the minister's office, is very few. We have to realize that since 1993, since the shutdown of the cod fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador, this government has gone through a difficult time. To be able to provide the basic services to people of Newfoundland in terms of health care and in terms of education. We are probably a few years behind in terms of our vessel replacement program but I think, as a government, we have made the right decisions in terms of being able to provide more money for health care, more money for education, and now, as you will see in the next period of time, the time to improve our transportation infrastructure in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has arrived, and I am sure over the next period of time you will see our plans as we look at our vessel replacement program.

We will be in Happy Valley-Goose Bay on Friday to announce a new marine service, more effective. We will be providing the best service ever coming up in the next year or so to the people of Labrador. As a matter of fact, I am very, very proud to be going to Labrador next Friday to announce a new marine service for the people of Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: It will be the best service. As a matter of fact, over the last year or so, working with the members in Labrador, we had two committees set up, one on the south coast of Labrador and one on the north coast of Labrador. I visit these communities. I have sat down with these committees. As a matter of fact, what we will be announcing in Labrador on Friday is a service that will be made in Labrador, for the people of Labrador. The people of Nain and those communities will have a better marine service than they have ever had in their history; second to none. This government will be very proud to announce the main transportation initiatives that we have come up with, in consultation with the people of Labrador, that will serve them for a long time to come.

Mr. Speaker, I have a problem with the resolution as it is worded. I sat in Question Period today and listened to the Opposition, and I have sat here for the last number of days, and the Opposition were up talking about this government as being fiscally irresponsible. Well, if we pass this resolution today I think that this House would be fiscally irresponsible. So I am proposing an amendment to this resolution.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Actually, most of the WHEREASs does not mean anything anyway. The resolution is what is at the end. Those of us who have been in the House for awhile know that the WHEREASs are more of a nuisance rather than any substance to a resolution.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Honourable House call upon the provincial government to implement a vessel replacement policy of constructing new ferries at shipyards in Newfoundland and Labrador instead of purchasing vessels from outside the Province "provided that it is fiscally competitive to do so".

I think as the government, and the person responsible for the taxpayers money in this Province, we have to put in this resolution.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not any more.

MR. BARRETT: This government is fiscally responsible, despite what the Leader of the Opposition and all those members on the opposite side may be saying over the last period of time. We want to put in this resolution to make sure that - we have to be competitive. Under the Public Tender Act, we have to make sure that it is fiscally competitive.

Mr. Speaker, I propose an amendment to this resolution by adding the words "provided that it is fiscally competitive to do so". I submit to Your Honour the amendment.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) analysis shows that it is (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will consult with the House Officers to see if the amendment is in order.

MR. BARRETT: Sure.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to give support to the resolution by my colleague from Cape St. Francis. Mr. Speaker, some of us in this Legislature have ferries in our district. I am one of those MHAs who has to deal with a ferry service pretty well on a regular basis. I see, from time to time, how important it is to have something that is very reliable and on schedule so that the people in those communities, serviced by the ferries, can plan their lives; can make it to appointments on time; to give their children the opportunity to compete and to avail of services outside of the island that they live on.

Mr. Speaker, sometimes we forget how good it is to have the services that we have until we see and talk to people that are serviced by a ferry, who have to make other arrangements and do without services for their children and for their seniors to get to appointments and to get the necessities of life outside the communities and islands that live on. The island that I am talking about is Long Island, which has three communities, basically, Beaumont, Beaumont North and Lushes Bight. Even though it is a small population it is still important that we deliver the same service to them that we would to any other island with a bigger population. Even though the population is small on that island there is still a great deal of cost to deliver that service. From information that I have gathered over the past two years dealing with this situation it costs approximately $1 million a year to operate that service and do the necessary retrofits and repairs to keep that service going.

Two years ago, Mr. Speaker, I was told by a committee on that island that this government supported to have that ferry taken out of service and a causeway built to the island. Since then there was a lot of lip service done, a lot of support from different MPs, premiers and ministers saying that they were going to do this project, but up to date this project is not in sight, as far as I know. Last year the government committed $2 million in the Budget to put towards this project, which is roughly a 20 per cent amount to the project, with agreement that the federal government would pay the other 80 per cent. At the time the MP for that riding guaranteed people in that district that the federal government would provide 80 per cent of the money for that project if the provincial government would come onside with their 20 per cent. Since then, after many meetings with different ministers and the Premier, the provincial government has decided to support it. I believe they committed to support it because they knew that they could not get the money from the federal government on the 80 per cent that the MP at the time promised.

Since that time, Mr. Speaker, there has been a leadership race in that party. Different leader contenders went to that island and made a commitment to the people of Long Island that they would support and do everything in their power to have that causeway done in the very near future. Even the former Premier was out there and said to the people of Long Island that if he was in a position in the federal government then that project would be done; absolutely nothing standing in the way to stop that project from going ahead. Since that time, Mr. Speaker, the former Premier was in a position in the federal government to do something about it. He decided that he did not want to get involved. He was not going to get involved and the project is still not done. The commitment is still not there.

I spoke to the minister many times about this project and he met with the committee many times. A commitment was made by the minister and I congratulate him for being involved and meeting with the committee and myself, but I think it is time now that the provincial government took this project on itself, to do the full project even though it may cost close to $14 million. By doing that, it would eliminate one ferry for this Province. The money that could be saved over the long term could be used for other ferry replacements and the ferry replacement program.

If we take this seriously enough, and we look at it in the long term, then the jobs that we could create from building ferries in this Province is unbelievable, the amount of spinoff and the amount of jobs that could come out of this replacement program for this Province.

Mr. Speaker, by replacing this ferry on Long Island with a causeway, then that causeway would give opportunities to the people of Long Island to avail of school outings, and benefits for the children on Long Island to get involved in sports off the island, because the island is not big enough to have all the facilities that other parts of the Province have, and it is very costly. It is $4 per person to get off the island to attend even a stadium, to be involved in minor hockey or any other sports off the island.

We have to look at the aspects of the benefits of not only replacing ferries that are old and dilapidated, but the benefits of increasing tourism in the Province, making life a lot easier for our seniors and our children, making this Province more acceptable to our own people to go from one place to another, even though it has to avail of a ferry service. The people of Bell Island could certainly be more happy with a service that is on a more constant basis, and a scheduled basis, as other islands in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

The Green Bay area already has so many causeways. In the past years, there have been causeways built to Pilley's Island, Port Anson, Miles Cove, Triton Island, to Brighton and Triton. To complete that link in the Green Bay area, we need one more causeway, the causeway to Long Island, that would complete the link of all the towns and communities in the Green Bay South area. This would certainly enhance tourism for the Green Bay South area. The millions of dollars that this government can save in the long run can certainly be spent even on roads or other vessels, and the people of Long Island will not have to put up with different problems that ferry services give to island people.

In the past year we have seen many problems, even though the minister says it was not a lot of problems, but there are some problems and interruptions in services. Last year there were two ferries tied up because of a chain break to an anchor. The ferry from Little Bay Island and the ferry from Long Island were tied up for a day or so and the people on both islands were very nervous because of the problem that they would have in getting off the island in emergency situations. Even some people had to miss appointments with specialists, so this is a very important issue for people who live on islands serviced by ferries.

I know, even though paint covers up a lot of the bad looking parts of a ferry - because I have worked on some of our ferries on this Island for a number of years in my business, particularly the ones in the central Green Bay area and Change Islands, Fogo Island. I worked on all those ferries over the years. I have been from top to bottom and front to back, and I have seen a lot of problems on the ferries. They are kept running alright, but it is time that we get a ferry replacement policy, something that is going to replace the older vessels even though some people believe that they are in good shape and they perform well. Most of the time they do, but we cannot afford to have a time when the ferry is not in service, and not supplying the service to our people in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, the jobs that are created, even though it might be a bit more expensive to build these ferries in the Province, it is important that we support our own industries in this Province. It is important that we take the money that we do have for any vessel replacement services in this Province and spend it in our own Province, because the taxes that we get back and the spinoffs and the money returning to government, after a period of time, is a lot greater than what we are going to get by giving some other province or other country millions of dollars to build ferries for our people.

The reason the minister gave to support the amendment to the resolution is not a good reason, in my point of view. I believe, even though it may cost more, we should avail of the expertise that we have in this Province, the expert facilities that we have. We have good facilities in Marystown, and the expertise; we can do this job here in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I think this resolution is fine just the way it is. Let's use our people to build our ferries.

Mr. Speaker, the causeway committee of Long Island have done their own projected feasibility and design. After government said that it was not feasible, the causeway committee in Long Island proved to this government that it is feasible to build that causeway to Long Island. It is a pretty good in-depth study, professionally done. It cost a lot of money to do this study, and I think that now this government should take it seriously enough; not only commit $2 million in the Budget, but commit the full capital cost of doing this project. Let's get it out of the way. Let's get it done, provide that service. One ferry gone out of the system where, over the long term, millions of dollars could be saved to spend on other members' roads, other members' ferries. When that is done, down the road, in many years, probably it could be used in health care and education.

This government should be fiscally responsible in long-term planning, not just for today -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: - but long-term planning where we can see where we can get the best bang for the buck on projects like this one in Long Island.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to sit down and give my colleagues a few minutes to have something to say on it, but I do encourage the government and the minister to get more involved in the Long Island causeway project and see this project done as soon as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly thank the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis for bringing this resolution forward, especially since this is something that I have lobbied aggressively for; and I thank the minister for acting on my request.

I was certainly elated, Mr. Speaker, to hear in the Speech from the Throne yesterday, that government will be initiating a new vessel replacement and refurbishment program, on a cost-effective basis, to address the needs of our ferry operations.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, my interest, as a member representing a district so greatly dependant on the shipbuilding industry, is more closely related to the construction of vessels. I feel certain that my hon. colleague for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair shares my delight, for this is something that we have both lobbied for, each, of course, with a different agenda, but each complementing the other. The hon. member needs the service for her district, and I, of course, have the facilities and the workforce to supply these vessels in Marystown.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak on this resolution without relating it to one of my main industries, the shipyard in Marystown. As most hon. members are aware, my district is dependant on two main industries, the Marystown Shipyard and the two FPI plants, the facility in Marystown and the FPI secondary processing plant in Burin. All other businesses in the area, Mr. Speaker, are dependant on the survival of those two industries. If the Burin Peninsula is to grow and prosper, Mr. Speaker, it is necessary to have both operating for the greater part of the calendar year.

Mr. Speaker, we all know that the history of shipbuilding in our Province, indeed in our country, has been one of peaks and valleys, one of bust and boom. Unfortunately, the last year has been another rock bottom for my area, and we have sadly witnessed a major decline in our population, as people left their homes to find employment in other parts of Canada and the United States. It is easy to be critical, Mr. Speaker, but the actual fact is, no matter which political party governed, despite everyone's best efforts, there always has been those lows and highs.

When the yard was owned and operated by government, Mr. Speaker, there were continuous complaints from the rest of the Province. Government were continuously reminded that they had lacked the expertise to run such an industry. The taxpayers in our Province were continuously complaining about the continuous infusion of funds into the shipyard. The solution seemed to be a strong entrepreneurial operation with marketing expertise to seek out work on a variety of borders; locally, nationally and internationally, on a commercial basis.

To reflect for just a moment, Mr. Speaker, on the history of the yard in Marystown. That shipyard was built in the late 1960s to complement the need for the building of trawlers for FPI or Atlantic Fish, as it was called at that time. However, the moratorium in the early 1990s brought with it the need to diversify. As a result, Mr. Speaker, the federal and provincial governments invested over $40 million to establish the Cow Head Offshore Fabrication Centre that continues to allow the yard to pursue new business opportunities in the offshore oil and gas industry.

The result, Mr. Speaker, was a state-of-the-art facility with a multi-trade workforce second to none in the entire world. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, any entrepreneur's dream. When Friede Goldman came on the scene in 1997, it appeared to everyone to be the ultimate solution. Everyone, Mr. Speaker, the media, the unions, government, did a fair amount of investigating into the company and everyone believed that the company was in there for the long term. After all, this was one of the biggest companies of its kind in the world at that time. Its shares were something in the area of $47 a share and were expected to rise to even in the $70s per share.

In the first year of operation some 1,150 workers were employed at the yard in Marystown, the most ever in the yard's history. But, Mr. Speaker, as it has been proven many times in our history even the best of companies can take a fall. As we know, the parent company of FGN, Friede Goldman Halter took a downturn eventually going into bankruptcy protection. Mr. Speaker, this situation has caused untold grief to the workforce in Marystown, to the Local 20 union that represent them, to the local management of FGN, to the entire business community, to the Chamber of Commerce, the municipal councils on the Burin Peninsula, as well, to our government and indeed, to me personally as the MHA representing that district.

These past few months have been frustrating for us all as we worked with the company on a number of restructuring options, with the executive of Local 20, meeting with other companies that expressed an interest in securing the facility and trying to find ways and means of helping our workers through this downturn. Despite our best efforts, Mr. Speaker, employment opportunities remained very limited, with the major project for last year being the environmental cleanup of the yard. That project employed about 200 workers for a four month period. That, Mr. Speaker, combined with a little refit on a couple of vessels kept the gates opened, but just barely.

Just recently, Mr. Speaker, the yard was awarded a contract for the annual refit of the Captain Earl W. Winsor at a price of something like $273, 000 and this work is expected to be completed some time around mid-April.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that most people are aware by now that there is a very reputable company genuinely interested in securing the FGN facility. If all goes as planned this will hopefully bring much needed employment to Marystown later this year but we will need something to tie us over for the next five or six months. Our major refurbishment at this time would certainly be welcomed.

Mr. Speaker, I met with Wayne Butler and other executive members of Local 20 as late as this past weekend. I have to highly commend them for their untiring efforts on behalf of the yard workers that they represent. The truth is, negotiations have been of such a highly sensitive nature that these people could not get on the airways for free of jeopardizing the future of that facility. I certainly commend them for holding in there and dealing with these issues in such a very professional manner. There is one thing though, Mr. Speaker, that I can assure the shipyard workers in my district, I have worked closely with your executive and they have represented you well.

Again, Mr. Speaker, hopefully we will soon have something positive to report. Right now, every passing day is a lifetime for those who wait and for those who represent them. Mr. Speaker, never in the history of the shipyard facility in Marystown has there been a greater need for employment. The construction of a new ferry or certainly some major refurbishing at this time would certainly enhance the opportunities for our many skilled work force who have been deliberating which move to make next. We need employment in Marystown, Mr. Speaker, and we need it now. Many have left the area and others are about to leave. These people have held on as long as possible but their EI funds are running out and it is a matter of survival.

There is always one person, I guess, that needs a special word of mention and in this case I would like to speak about a person who has done a tremendous role through all of this. This gentleman, Heber Pike in Marystown, is a really good friend of mine and a former colleague during my years on council. He was also a former manager of the shipyard in Marystown and is now employed with a company called (inaudible) in the United States. Heber has known the workforce in Marystown for a long time through working with them. His company has been providing employment for several of our skilled workforce over the years, the last couple of years in places like Trinidad and various US states. These workers have been employed on various contracts, have made good money, and as a result allowed their families to maintain their homes in the Marystown area. Since these people have worked away from the area rather than move away, it ensures a local workforce will also be available once the services are required at the yard once again.

Back again to the issue of building ferries, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is, had government been in a position to build a ferry or ferries, up to this point, it certainly would have been done. Construction certainly has not been put on hold due to any lack of lobbying or any good intent. There is no argument against building ferries in this Province. Everyone agrees there was a real need to replace our ferries and an attempt to do so just as soon as such funding can be made available. To this point in time the funding just has not been available.

The member stated in his resolution the life of a ferry, according to the Auditor General's Report - and I might add from other reliable sources that I have spoken with - is approximately twenty-five years. In fact, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador manages a fleet of twenty-one ferry vessels, which operate sixteen routes throughout the Province. Last year we transported 725,000 passengers, 360,000 vehicles, and made 20,000 round trips. Our fleet is the second largest ferry fleet in the entire country. The provincial government owns twelve of the twenty-one vessels providing ferry service to the people of this Province, and the average age of government owned vessels is actually 24.4 years. As the minister stated earlier, this compares to thirty to thirty-five years being the average age of ferry vessels in B.C. and the US, including the Washington state system.

In this Province provincial ferries are the primary mode of transportation for many communities and it is our responsibility to ensure that those dependent on this service are provided with the most effective service possible. Our government is doing everything that they can possibly do to ensure that this service meets those standards and is not interrupted. However, from time to time there are situations beyond anyone's control. Last year I guess we were fortunate in experiencing only four unexpected breakdowns.

Mr. Speaker, we do have regulations and policies in place concerning our ferries. In conjunction with two regulatory bodies, Lloyds of London, a vessel classification association with CAI, a division of Transport Canada, all ferries undergo an annual refit. Every two years or sooner, all vessels are removed from the water and placed on dry dock to inspect the hull, shafts and propellers, and conduct any necessary repairs as well. No vessel sails, Mr. Speaker, unless they hold an operating certificate from CIS. Mr. Speaker, every fifteen to twenty years, a vessel will undergo a mid-life refit. Some major work at this point includes ultrasound testing of the hull, and necessary repairs, as well as the vessel's superstructure.

Mr. Speaker, the Flanders, one of the three vessels built in Marystown in 1990, had necessary repairs totaling $300,000 to $400,000 done in Marystown last year. It is notable, as the minister already stated, Mr. Speaker, that the Flanders is the only one of the three vessels that was financed and owned by government. The other two vessels: the Beaumont Hamel was built in 1985 for Canada Trust Company and is leased by the government with a twenty-year buyback agreement; and the Gallipoli, constructed in 1986, continues to be owned by Xerox; again, a twenty-year lease/buyback agreement.

Mr. Speaker, I have checked the cost of building ferries several times, and it is expected to be somewhere in the area of $20 million. That would be for a vessel somewhat similar to the Captain Earl Winsor. That particular vessel was purchased from the federal government for $300,000 and was completely refurbished.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It has been brought to the Chair's attention that people are having difficulty hearing the speaker. There seems to be much too much chatter in the Chamber. If members would, while the member is speaking....

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, that particular vessel was purchased from the federal government for $300,000 and was completely refurbished for $3 million in Marystown. We are all very much aware that the cost of purchasing overseas is substantially less than the cost involved in building at home; yet, Mr. Speaker, that should never be an option. Whether or not we decide to build or lease, we have to ensure that the vessels we operate are built in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I am certain my colleagues on this side of the House are very aware of the return benefits to our economy derived from building at home: return benefits and revenues through income tax, payroll tax, HST, and secondary industry created as a result of the operation of this major industry. I realize that, as a government, we have had to balance many priorities. Mr. Speaker, marine services needs have to be balanced with the needs for health care, education and other social and economic programs in our Province.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is a chance and we are hopeful that we are going to be in a position to do something about the ferry fleet in our Province. Mr. Speaker, we have assessed our fleet and know what work needs to be done on each and every vessel. We have established our priorities and know what needs to be addressed first.

Mr. Speaker, I realize that government has to look at a policy that is flexible, and allow us to keep our options open, but I maintain that to construct or refurbish outside of this Province would not be an option. I agree with a cost-benefit analysis to show that we are fiscally responsible, but the real benefit to this Province is to retain our workforce and have our work done here at home.

Again, I thank the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis for bringing this resolution forward.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the Member for Baie Verte, the Chair would just like to inform the House that the amendment as brought forward by the Minister of Works, Service and Transportation is in order, and that the resolution is therefore amended by adding immediately after the word Province, provided that it is fiscally competitive to do so.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am certainly delighted today, to stand and support this motion put forward by my colleague for Cape St. Francis. Mr. Speaker, in this House of Assembly for a number of years, this side of the House, our party, has espoused what they thought should be done a long time ago. As a matter of fact, we think it is long overdue. So, we are delighted that the government has at least hinted to a policy that will finally address something that is long overdue.

I have to make some reference to a few points that the minister made when he was on his feet. First off the bat, I can tell him that I, too, travel the ferry system in this Province. In my district, of course, Little Bay Islands has become famous when it comes to the ferry system, and the history of that particular island and what it has contributed to this Province. I think, if I am not mistaken - and the Minister of Fisheries or maybe our critic for Fisheries can tell me - I believe that the Little Bay Islands plant had the second crab licence ever in this Province, so the history of that community goes back a long way where it has contributed to the economy of this Province and had some very prosperous years. That particular ferry system to that island, like so many other parts of this Province, is critical and crucial to survival and, of course, any economic development that may happen on the island portion.

When you look at the statistics on inter-ferry service in this Province and see, as the member before me has spoken of, over forty islands and isolated communities in this Province. Forty communities have over 30,000 in population and the numbers, Mr. Speaker - the Bell Island ferry service, which is over 50 per cent of all the provincial traffic in this Province.

It goes back in history. As you look at the coast of our Province, and where our communities are spread along the coast, we also see the geography and how it has affected so many people in this Province. It is their lifeline. I agree with the minister when he says, when you go on one of these runs and you talk to the crew - I always do, talk to the captain. I know many of my colleagues who travel on these ferries go and talk to the crew to see what it feels like, to get a flavor, really, of what their day-to-day jobs are like.

It is true, when you look at a particular boat, paint can do a lot, as the Member for Windsor-Springdale said earlier. The real truth behind a good ferry, a good boat, is to see if the motor is running properly. That is what most people tell me is most important, that it is going to be reliable.

Mr. Speaker, I look back at some press releases over the last few years. Go back to 1999, when the community of Harbour Deep was in my district. It is now in the district of the Member for Humber Valley. I have traveled there on the ferry service many times. Just a year or so ago, maybe two years ago - I cannot remember the exact date - when they had a very close call with that ferry service, when there was a full load of students on the boat, it went adrift for hours. There were some very tense moments for the people in that community.

Then again last year, Mr. Speaker, the community of Little Bay Islands, a situation with the plant and so on. It also was their civic holiday when we had a breakdown of the Inch Arran. The minister spoke of the Inch Arran. I am glad to hear it is certainly being one of the priorities when your look at the lifespan of the Inch Arran: thirty-nine years old. Another little statistic on the Inch Arran, Mr. Speaker, seven times the motor has been rebuilt.

The minister got up to say how the Opposition over the years have complained about the condition of some of the ferries throughout the Province and so on. In this very House I spoke of the Inch Arran, and how a motor could be rebuilt seven times, and he is wondering why they are breaking down. No, there may not be a lot of breakdowns, I say to the minister, but one may be too many. When you have close calls like what happened in Harbour Deep or Little Bay Islands, when a boat is gone adrift with people onboard, with no backup motor, Mr. Speaker, there is a problem.

That is why you can rebuild them and you can paint them as much as you want, but we all know, Mr. Speaker, if you look at an antique car it looks good, too, but to take it on a highway and drive for miles and miles, then you have second thoughts about it. Yes, as we look at the ferry system in this Province, this is long overdue.

I also recall, Mr. Speaker, in this House when we talked about the consultation that was going on, on a provincial ferry service from North Sydney to Port aux Basques, and how consultations went on right across this Province. I hope the Member for Humber Valley remembers this. When the consultations were going on across the Province, there was a major press conference by the government talking about the On Deck and Below, which finally came as a report on the provincial ferry service. There were people in this Province, mayors and community leaders and so on, calling for a more in-depth consultation on the interprovincial ferry service. That was missing. There were people, mayors and communities leaders, finding out that there were consultations going on that they knew nothing about, so they could get the opportunity to address some of the concerns, the litany of concerns, Mr. Speaker, of our own provincial ferry service. It is great to make demands on our provincial ferry service, but people within the Province were wondering why they were not consulted on our own provincial ferry service.

Mr. Speaker, we have to remember that these communities, from Bell Island to Little Bay Islands, Long Island, Fogo Island, even those names themselves talk about the whole history of Newfoundland and Labrador; and all along the Labrador Coast. For years, as we look back at a list here of Hansard from the House of Assembly - 1999 is the last one I have here, but it was even before that when my colleague from Cape St. Francis, my colleague from Windsor-Springdale, on a number of occasions talked about it. As the government says, we complained. Rightfully so, I would say. I am sure the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island knows all about that as we listened to people from Bell Island a few nights ago.

This is not a revelation, Mr. Speaker. This is not something that was dropped in their lap last night. This is a long litany, a long history of complaints about the ferry service in this Province, our own system that has been falling down and dilapidating. Yes, I am one of the ones who talked about the derelicts that are being used now in our own system, but when you look at an example in my own district of the Inch Arran, thirty-nine years old, seven rebuilt motors, how many times would you rebuild a motor in your own car before you finally decide it is an investment to go get a new one? How long would you do that, Mr. Speaker?

Logic has finally caught up with the government and the government has really - the truth is, Mr. Speaker, they have gotten to a point where they have to do something about it. We have been calling for it for the last three or four or five years. It is just a matter of having some foresight.

As my colleague from Windsor-Springdale said - a good point - we made statements on this from our party three, four, or five years ago. We do not look at it as a cost to this Province. We look at it as an investment to this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: As an investment that is well spent.

Another key ingredient to that, Mr. Speaker, is a plan, a long- term plan, as mentioned earlier. If you are going to have some vision, some foresight, you have to have a plan. I do not mean a plan that you go from budget to budget and decide weeks before the budget comes out with a scramble in the back room to see where you are going to take money from. We are talking about a plan that not just reflects one year. We do not want a plan that takes one fiscal year from January 1 to January 1, Mr. Speaker. We would like to see a plan were you take four years, five years, ten years, and that is what kind of investment we need in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: We need somebody with some foresight and vision, not to finally make a decision when we are against the wall, when it is too late and you know you have to do something.

As my colleague from Cape St. Francis said earlier, we are delighted. There are times we have stood in this House, over the last number of months especially. In the last number of months especially, Mr. Speaker, when time after time the hypocrisy of it all. When you see somebody from the opposite side get up and say the Tories have no positions and then, as the day - I cannot name them again because the list is just too long. This is another one. This is one that we stated here as early as 1999. We stated again, bring in a policy that we are going to see long-term investment and rebuild our ferry fleet in this Province. We said it then, Mr. Speaker, and we are delighted that you are taking it again.

I was just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if you are ever going to get a chance to implement it, because you do not have a lot of time. Time is running out, Mr. Speaker. The question is, when the minister delivers this policy statement, I am looking for the how and the when. The how and the when.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, it probably will be by the time you deliver and implement the plan, I say to the minister.

Mr. Speaker, that is what we have to watch for. That is what I am very interested in. Yes, I am delighted to hear the minister allude to the Inch Arran, and how old it was, and it should be a priority of one of them, but I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, what is the plan? I have not seen a long-term plan. I want to see a plan of three and four and five years, because we are not going to build all of these next month. It is going to be a plan. It is going to be a plan for investment in this Province, Mr. Speaker, when our backs are against the wall and we have to finally do something about it.

Mr. Speaker, as I look at the ferry service in this Province, it is not just the fact that we have to rebuild the vessels, but when we look at it as an investment as opposed to looking at it as a cost. When we look to Little Bay Islands, Mr. Speaker, and some years ago in 1997 when we had our Caboto year, a fleet of sail boats that came into Green Bay, Long Island, Little Bay Islands, in my opinion one of the most beautiful parts of the Coast of Newfoundland, I guess, in my bias ways, but I do say, Mr. Speaker, each one of those sailboats were from all over the states and throughout Canada and a large yacht came into Little Bay Islands, and they came back a year after because they were amazed with the scenery and the beauty. That is why I look at this as an investment. We are talking about tourists who, at the end of the day, are going to return for the beauty of Newfoundland and Labrador, and they are not going to go on a dilapidated, dragged-down ferry system. They are looking to enjoy it. Like the minister said earlier, I have enjoyed my trips to Little Bay Islands; but, I have to tell you, I have had some rough days going over there, too. I have been over there many times, but every summer Little Bay Islands is an attraction for tourists and we have to allow that to grow and to prosper.

Mr. Speaker, on top of that, when we talk about investment again, the crab plant in Little Bay Islands, as of last year, got a whole new lease on life and this year they are planning on expanding. So, the ferry system is the lifeblood of that community. Just two years ago, we didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel. The bottom line is, that ferry system is the lifeblood of such a place as Little Bay Islands, or Fogo Island, or Long Island, or Bell Island, or Gaultois, like somebody just mentioned earlier. If that is not there, they just do not exist, and they have proven it over the years. We owe it to them in this Province. We owe it to these communities who live on islands. We owe it to them to have a chance to prosper and to grow. That is why a place like Little Bay Islands and the company that is there now operating the plant, they should not have to be worried and concerned - as I spoke to the company awhile ago - they should not have to be concerned that the ferry is going to be operating or that they can handle the trucks because they will increase their capacity. They should be worried about the markets, and about employing people on the island, putting people to work. They should not be worried about something that is essential and critical to that particular island.

Mr. Speaker, on that note, that is the point we want to make today. This is the policy that we have adopted some time ago and glad to see the government grasp onto it. It is a good one, but I have to see the details. I want to see how it is going to be implemented, how long it is going to take, and we will reserve the right to look at those details. Maybe we will have to make some changes to it, if it is not good enough. We may have to make some changes; I will caution the government on that right now. We may have to make some changes, but at least you started on the right track.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we have to continue on and look to a future that sees five and ten years down the road, so places like Little Bay Islands can have their dignity again. We visited there a few nights ago, talking about the history of Bell Island, and the potential for tourism there and so on. There is so much potential. So, I say to government, the message is: you have taken a little while to get there, but get there. Continue on with it and look at it as an investment to this Province, not as a cost, but something that is essential to the well-being of these communities. If they are going to have a chance, we have to give it to them by giving them at least not a luxury but an essential service that is needed so that island parts of this Island of Newfoundland and Labrador can survive.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER (Hodder): The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I would like to have a few words to say on this particular resolution as well. I guess for all of us here to fully appreciate the situation that people find themselves in many of those isolated communities, you have to live the experience. You have to know what it is all about. I grew up on the South Coast and know very much what it is to be isolated. In fact, all of my life, even until the time I went to university back in the 1960s, we had to take the old coastal boat, the Baccalieu or the Bar Haven or Bonavista or the Nonia and go from Hermitage, either to Terrenceville or to Burin, or sometimes to St. John's, in order to find outside activity other than what is in the communities themselves.

 

I can well remember, Madam Speaker, a couple of instances that I want to relate before I get into the resolution. I remember, as a young boy, going to supper one night in my own town of Seal Cove. There was a lady there who was pregnant and about to deliver her child. There were no roads, boats or ferries around. There was a small motor boat about fifteen, sixteen or probably twenty feet long with probably a 5 horsepower Atlantic into it. It took the lady from Seal Cove down to Harbour Breton for her to deliver. What was very unfortunate about that was, as the boat left the community and went towards Harbour Breton, which was about twelve to fourteen miles, the boat was about six miles offshore when it turned around and came back. Everybody in that community knew why the boat had turned back. The lady had died aboard the boat and, of course, as a result, the child did as well. That is one of the things about isolation.

I remember also very vividly when I, as a student myself, went to school in Seal Cove, Fortune Bay, and on one particular afternoon in the spring we were playing soccer and I had the misfortune to break my arm. There was no snowplough around; we were isolated. In order to get to Hermitage, my dad at the time took me in a motor dory from Seal Cove to Sandyville, from Sandyville to Hermitage by horse and sleigh, and when we got to Hermitage to see Dr. Prim, I think, or Dr.(inaudible), I am not sure which of the particular guys - it might have been Dr. (inaudible) - there was no doctor there. He had gone somewhere else. There were no phones. So, the next morning, my dad took me back to Sandyville again and from there we went from Sandyville down to Landing Cove by motor boat, and then we had to walk from Landing Cove down to Harbour Breton and over (inaudible) which is another two or three miles. I was in Harbour Breton, again an isolated community at that particular time, for eleven days in hospital. As a result of that, by the time I had gotten to St. John's, my arm had grown together and I had to get it broken again and reset. As a result of it, I have not so good use of the arm as I normally would have. That was then.

What do we have now? As a result of the improvement in transportation, we have a number of these communities that are now linked up by road from Poole's Cove, Belleoram, English Harbour, Red Cove, Coomb's Cove, Boxey, Mose Ambrose, all of these communities, Hermitage, Seal Cove, Sandyville, and even the Bay d'Espoir communities themselves are now hooked up to a highway system whereby we can get to Central Newfoundland for many of the medical emergencies that we have. Of course, we also have the Harbour Breton hospital, a new building that was put there only a few years ago, and that really meets the needs more so than the old cottage hospital that was there. We use a regional hospital in Grand Falls and Gander, which is about three hours away.

For some of the communities that I represent, they do not have that opportunity. They have to depend on the ferry boat. To be honest with you, I think that the area of the coast that I represent, the South Coast, is the most difficult coast in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Because, even on the northern part of Labrador you do have an opportunity to have fixed-wing aircraft to get into the communities. On the South Coast, you have chopper or by boat. There are times when you cannot get in with either one of them, when there is too much wind. In François, or Grey River, when the wind comes in off the mountains, the downdraft, the chopper just cannot operate. There are times, of course, by living by the sea, out on the ocean like these people are, you cannot use the boat either. They are in a dilemma in many of these situations.

Today it is different than it was, as I said a few moments ago, when I grew up on the coast. When we grew up we seen the coastal boat about once a week. Later on CN provided a different service from Terrenceville up to Port aux Basques, and we had pretty much a daily service up and down the coast. What is different now for many of these communities is that these boats tie up in the communities at night. They tie up at Ramea, at François - Grey River doesn't and neither does McCallum, but for Gaultois and Rencontre East they do. It is their lifeline, and they had to have a ferry system that can, when the weather permits, afford them of the opportunity to go to the outside world. As I said, it is only the people who live there who really understand and have an appreciation for what it means to have good ferries and good schedules and so on.

Even when I think about the situation in Gaultois, the minister referred to it earlier, there is a plant - and as the Member for Bonavista South thought, everybody thought it was gone, it would never reopen again, but that is not the case. Through the Cooperative in Gaultois and people, themselves, who have become the initiators of making this happen, the plant is now open; open today as we speak. They are looking for a new roll-on roll-off ferry service because with the fresh pack that they have coming out of that particular plant you cannot put it on the deck of a boat and then make four or five trips, come back to Hermitage and over a day or two fill the tractor-trailer truck. It just does not work. With the roll-on roll-off service you can have the container right to the plant door and when it goes across to Hermitage, hook on the tractor-trailer and go to market. We are very hopeful that we can improve that particular system for that community. We are hoping that over the next few days that can happen.

When you think of Rencontre East; Rencontre East has the opportunity, unlike many of the other people along the coast, they have connections to Bay L'Argent and Pools Cove. In the summer it is a different schedule than in wintertime. In the summer you can go from both Pools Cove to Bay L'Argent every day. The boat stays at the community overnight. One of the things that I found to be very interesting and found the way that we should do things, we collaborated with the people in the community through the ferries committees and transportation committees, and they said to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation: this is a schedule that we would like to have. We have been able to accommodate for them. We have been able to do it for other communities as well. So, there is the need for it. There are times when you have mechanical made machines, like in the ferries, when you are going to have some problems with motors, regardless of the age of it. I must say that for the majority of times along the coast, things are pretty well. It is never, in a sense, good enough. That is why I agree with my colleague, the Member for Bellevue and the Member for Cape St. Francis in putting forth this here. The status quo is not good enough. We need something better.

As the minister said a few moments ago, we will work with that particular system. Providing it is fiscally responsible to do so, we will replace the ferries in the particular Province, those that are run by the Province themselves. I am sure that if you were to talk to the people in these communities, that I have referenced earlier, they would tell you that they would like to have a better system. When you think about the coast of where I am from, the South Coast, compared to where the member is for Windsor-Springdale, he talked about his ferry service on Long Island. It is probably 1,000 feet across. That is about what it is.

AN HON. MEMBER: Six hundred meters.

MR. LANGDON: Six hundred meters. So roughly 1,800 feet or 2,000 feet.

When you talk about from Ramea to Burgeo, out in the ocean it is quite different. When you talk about going across from Fortune Bay and Bay L'Argent up to Rencontre, you are talking about over two hours and out in the ocean like that, not in the bay or in the confines or landlocks, it is much more difficult to be able to operate in these particular systems. I am confident that as we work together with the people in these areas to improve the service, that we will be able to meet the needs and be able to, not only replace the ferry service, as was mentioned here in the other twenty-one, but I am sure along the coast, where we are as well, and improve the quality of life for the people who work there.

When we get here everyday and talk about the things that we have for people who are not depending on the boat system, the transportation system, it is quite different. I think of the guy who worked for me. I mentioned a situation earlier where one of the ladies died on the way to the hospital, and I think of the young fellow who worked for me, Elvis. He was born on the CN coastal boat as well. His mom went from Hermitage to Harbour Breton to the cottage hospital but never made it there, and Elvis was born right off Connaigre Head on the boat to Bonavista. There was a young lady from Gaultois who was born on the sister ship Nonia the same day.

These are some of the perils that we had a few years ago. Obviously, we do not want to go back to that situation. We want to improve on what we have, we want to build on what we have, and we want to listen to the people who are in the area. In Francois, for example, they are completely - we tendered a couple of years ago and, as it worked out, they got a boat other than the one that they wanted. The one that they had before they wanted to keep, and we were able to work with them to make that happen as well. It was Minister of Forestry, who was the Works, Services and Transportation Minister at that time, who worked with the community to get their boat back.

I recognize the need that is there, like all of us. We have to provide the service for these people. It is their lifeline, it is essential, it is the thing that they expect us, as government, to be able to do. I want to assure these people, as my colleague has already today, that we will work with them over the next number of years to find a replacement for some of the boats that are there in the system now, and upgrade others, so that they can have a way of life somewhat similar to what we have; but because of the terrain, because of where they live in many of these isolated communities, it is not practical or possible to do all the things that you and I would do in the communities that have land transportation and road transportation, which they would never be able to achieve in these areas because of the terrain and so on.

Madam Speaker, with these words, I have made my point, that I support these people in that area, and look forward to a time when we can improve the system that we already have.

Thank you very much.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I would like to take a few minutes to offer my comments on the motion before the House regarding the refurbishment of our ferries and the use of our own facilities in the Province to do this work.

Mr. Speaker, clearly we have seen, over the last number of years, problems with individual ferries breaking down, problems with inadequacy of the service and problems with the inadequacy of the equipment. We have seen it in all of the places where we have had ferries operating, Mr. Speaker, and we all know how vital the communication link ferries are. We also know, Mr. Speaker, that our own people have not been used to the greatest possible extent in building our ferries, refurbishing and working to make sure that the ferries that are operating here are, to the greatest extent possible, built here.

We do not have the protection in this country, Mr. Speaker, that the Americans have under the Jones Act. We do not have a requirement that ships and boats, operating in Canada from one port to another, must be built in Canada or in Newfoundland and Labrador and operated by crews from here and owned in this Province, Mr. Speaker, such as the Americans have under the Jones Act, which they have protected under the Free Trade Agreement entered into by the Progressive Conservative Government of Canada, and furthered by the Liberal Government of Canada that protects them but not us. It may be, Mr. Speaker, that we have to be creative in ensuring that whatever work is done in building ferries or new ferries is actually done in this Province, so as not to run afoul of these agreements that the Liberal and Conservative Governments of Canada have entered into for the benefit, Mr. Speaker, not of us but, in fact, of those stronger trading partners that we have, particularly in the area of shipbuilding.

We do know that the workers at Marystown and the workers at Bull Arm are, for the most part, idle, Mr. Speaker, waiting for something to happen, waiting for the benefits of our offshore oil industry to give them back some work that they had before, when the Hibernia project was being developed. That is something that the Marine Worker's Union have been working on in Marystown, the Trades Council has been working on in the case in Bull Arm, and many people for a number of years have been working on, in terms of a shipbuilding policy, trying to support a shipbuilding policy, and get in place a shipbuilding policy for Canada.

The Marine Worker's Union took the lead some ten or twelve years ago, Mr. Speaker. The New Democratic Party supported the importance of a national shipbuilding policy, and here in our Province this is an opportunity for us to have a local policy based on local needs, not only for ferry service that we depend upon and so many of our communities depend upon, but also for the work that needs to be done in our coastal communities, particularly Marystown and Bull Arm that have world-class facilities, state-of-the-art, developed and ready to be operated. Not to forget, of course, the other shipbuilding facilities that we have and shipyard facilities in St. John's and fabrication yards elsewhere in the Province that could be used. We have to do more to protect our own workforce and provide jobs and employment here. That would start with a plan, a defined plan, a definite plan, but it requires a commitment from this government and a commitment that we should hope to see in the Budget tomorrow, when the actual financial plans of the government for the next twelve months will be brought down.

I want to offer the wholehearted support of my colleague from Labrador West and I, for this motion, and thank the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis for bringing it forward for discussion in the House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Before I recognize the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis, I would like to acknowledge in the gallery today a former member of the House of Assembly for Burin-Placentia West, Mr. Glenn Tobin.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In my closing remarks I would like to first thank those individuals who spoke today here in the House of Assembly supporting my private member's resolution with respect to a vessel replacement policy within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Those members were: the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, the Member for Windsor-Springdale, Burin-Placentia West, Baie Verte, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, and of course, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Mr. Speaker, there was some very interesting commentary today in this House of Assembly, and I support most of it. What I found most interesting was the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. When he was on his feet he made some contradicting remarks within his own speech. He talked about us saying that the ferries are falling apart. He said: that's not accurate. Yet, in the very next breath he said they are far behind, years behind in a vessel replacement policy for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Why are they years behind, Mr. Speaker? That is the question that needs to be asked. Why are they so far behind?

He was talking about the Opposition talking about old relics. Yes, and we will talk about them and we will continue to talk about them when we have this government going outside the Province, outside the country, over across to Europe and buying a rust bucket, a relic, which is the Ahelaid, and they spent - this was in1999. I believe it was supposed to be used as a swing vessel. It is still tied up; $6 million spent on the vessel. It is not in use yet and he talks about us criticizing rust buckets.

Another point, Mr. Speaker, when he was up on his feet trying to be smart and cute as he often does, he said about the Member for Cape St. Francis being over there joking and laughing. Yes, I was laughing at his remarks when he said about the Bell Island ferry when we had the Beaumont Hamel and the Flanders, I believe it is - when the two of them were on dock last year he was trying to say that the reason why the service was out was because of the weather. Those vessels could normally take that weather, the wind and the seas at that point in time, but the vessel that they put in place to replace them, that was the problem, Mr. Speaker, not the weather. It was the vessel they put in place. So, this is long, long overdue.

He also talked about comparison. We were talking about the vessel - I think it was seven or eight of the vessels that were twenty-five to forty-three years old, according to the Auditor General, and he went and compared them to some places in the country and down in the United States where they are thirty-five years old. So what? Does that make it right, I say to the minister? Does that make it right? Did he go to the other extreme, where there are probably vessels in the country where the average vessel's life is probably fifteen years?

When I sat down, Mr. Speaker, I was about to get into the cost of this vessel replacement policy. Now, the minister introduced an amendment to our resolution, of course, and he said: provided it is fiscally responsible to do so, to build the vessels in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; replacement vessels. If you want to look at it, the cost to build the vessels in Newfoundland and Labrador, in Newfoundland shipyards, it probably would be higher, but there is a net benefit, I think, if you look at the overall picture. There is probably a net benefit in that if you compare it to the cost savings of going out and buying a piece of junk and spending $6 million or $7 million on it. First of all, we would have employment in a Newfoundland shipyard.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: And I am sure the people in places like Marystown would benefit from it greatly. That is just one aspect of it, the employment. Then you would have the survival of the shipbuilding industry, and the spinoffs from that alone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: That is something that should be looked at. You just cannot look at the extra cost, you have to look at the overall picture. We have the economic and tax benefit spinoffs here. We have the income tax. We have people employed. We have money being spent into the economy again; buying fridges, stoves, and cars, whatever the case may be. We have the HST, and that in itself, right back into the provincial coffers; but this government, it took so long for them to figure that out. It took us pounding them over the head for months and months and years and years. Finally, we have the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, and the Lieutenant-Governor in the Throne Speech yesterday, announcing a vessel replacement program that is very vague. We still do not know the details. Hopefully, when it comes out, we will be able to support it. I sincerely hope we will be able to.

Another point that we need to look at, of course, Mr. Speaker, is purchases from within the local industry itself. Again, to create more jobs, more spinoffs, buying materials, buying services, electricians, plumbers, welders, all these individuals could be employed in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We cannot be that shortsighted, as the minister has proven to be in the past.

Quality workmanship; from my understanding in Marystown, the shipyard in Marystown, second to none in the country, the quality of workmanship of the people and the experts in the workforce in Marystown.

Also, another very important point is warranty services in Newfoundland and Labrador. We could have warranties right here in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador versus, of course, as I said, buying the old vessels in Europe such as the Adelaide. Then we had to deal with the breakdowns. The minister was up trying to say that there were no breakdowns. The Member for Baie Verte said that one of the vessels itself had the motor rebuilt seven times. Now how much money would that be? I would not venture a guess; the motor rebuilt seven times. The Auditor General, herself, talked about the abuse of the Public Tender Act when it comes to the vessels and the refit and repairs. She talked about the millions of dollars that have been spent each year in refit and repairs that could be going into - if you put a proper program into place.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the minister has looked at the federal government programs. There is the structural financing facility program, where you can get 10 per cent back on the cost of building the vessel if you build it inside Canada. That is one program. Of course, you have the Capital Cost Allowance, where you partner with private industry, which the minister was so opposed to last fall when I brought this up in the House of Assembly. The minister was so opposed - he was. He can shake his head over there now and say he wasn't, but he was opposed to it. As a matter of fact, he was trying to ridicule the previous policy back in the 1980s that was in place when we built the three vessels here. I expect that he will now adopt a policy similar to what was back in the 1980s; stuff that this government was so quick to throw out when they came in.

Mr. Speaker, there is another thing that can be looked at: this $350 million for the roads in Labrador. They took the $50 million down on the South Coast, and we have the Minister of Finance looking at taking $100 million out of the federal Labrador fund for the roads up there to help balance the Budget. If they were smart, they could have taken that $350 million and the $400 million, used the interest from that money itself, instead of now going to abuse it; $50 million gone down on the South Coast that they have to come up with each year. Take that money and they could have financed a vessel replacement policy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: No, Mr. Speaker, they have to go for the one-shot deal, the one-shot fix all the time, like Term 29, the South Coast ferry and others - the others.

It is a good sign, I would think, to know that the minister and his government on the other side of the House, the government, is starting to listen to the Opposition and our thoughts. Our policies are being adopted. As I said earlier, it is too bad that the government - maybe they have been there just too long and they are void of any ideas to come up with. That is why they are always trying to put the pressure on us to make our policies known to them, so they can grab on to something, so they can grab on to something and put another policy in place.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Everything in due course. I will say, stay tuned, Mr. Speaker. We will put policies in place that will -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, members on the opposite side - I suppose, when you get right down to the bare knuckles and the truth, it hurts, I suppose - they know themselves that our policies are good policies.

Again, Mr. Speaker, it is getting late in the afternoon. There is much more I can say on this, Mr. Speaker, but I do not know if it is necessary to go any further. I think we will have probably unanimous support for this resolution that is put forward in this House of Assembly today.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the members who spoke in support of this private member's resolution. Hopefully, it will have a result of action being taken by this government, not like many private members' resolutions that are there, purged, spoken to, Mr. Speaker. Time will tell. We will see if what they have put in place is what they have committed to today in this House of Assembly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of the amendment, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against?

On motion, amendment carried.

MR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of the resolution, as amended, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against?

On motion, resolution, as amended, carried.

It being Wednesday afternoon, and the private member's business concluded, this House now stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, at 2:00 p.m.