April 18, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 10


The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise, by leave, agreed to with the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the New Democratic Party.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. SPEAKER: Agreed.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador today, by leave, I rise and pay tribute to the four Canadian soldiers serving with the Third Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, who were killed in a training accident near Kandahar, Afghanistan, last evening.

At this time I would also like to send prayers on our behalf to the individuals who sustained injuries in that most unfortunate accident. I express deep sympathy to the families of all those affected in this terrible event.

Over the years, Mr. Speaker, thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and indeed many Canadians, have answered the call to serve their country and seek peace around the world. However, one can never be prepared for the kind of reality they faced in Afghanistan yesterday and last night.

Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to put into words the feelings of the people of our Province and the country on this tragic occasion. We offer comfort to all those in need at this time. The valiant efforts of our military do not go unnoticed, especially in times like this.

For those who remain in Afghanistan today, we reaffirm our support for you in your duty to protect justice in the world. Your ambition, talent, and will to build a world of freedom and peace is admired by us all. Our thoughts, I am sure, Mr. Speaker, are with every one of them.

I understand that the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the NDP would also like to speak and then, on behalf of all of us, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that maybe you would ask the members of this Legislature, and those gathered in the galleries today, to stand in a minute of silence for those four who lost their lives last evening protecting justice in the world on behalf of Canada in this case.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I share the sentiments and the comments of the Premier. Myself and my family, this morning, were deeply saddened as we turned on the radio, as all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians do in the morning to get the early morning news, to hear of this tremendous tragedy. Of course, our immediate fear is for people whom we know. We all know people in the military, not only in the Province but throughout the country, and to know that they have lost their lives in the cause of freedom, especially in a friendly fire situation, which is a very, very unfortunate situation.

On behalf of myself, and all the members of the caucus, we certainly want to express our deepest condolences and our sympathy to the families involved, even though I understand the names of all those who died in that terrible incident are not known at this particular point in time. We certainly send our condolences and, if it is any comfort to them, we are thinking of them, we appreciate what their families have done, and what their sons and daughters have done in the cause of freedom and in the war against terrorism. It is a great sacrifice. It is the ultimate sacrifice. We certainly sympathize with them. It is a tough moment, I think, for all of us when this happens, but we certainly express our sympathy.

That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was with great horror and regret that I heard, and I am sure we all heard, this morning of the death of four Canadians in Afghanistan. The sad reality of war has really been brought home to all Canadians and all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians today, and we can reflect on the reality of war and also the great significance, I guess, of the decisions that are made and have to be made to actually send troops to engage in battle.

The Princess Patricia's are in the forefront of most Canadian activity overseas. My own brother served at one time in the Princess Patricia's, and I know a lot of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians do as well.

We join with the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition in expressing our great regret with what has happened, and our sincere and profound condolences to the families of those young Canadians who are serving overseas on behalf of their country. We are all very proud of their willingness to take on that very important role, knowing that this is a possibility, but never imagining for a moment that they would have to endure the supreme sacrifice that was made by these four young Canadians yesterday.

I would want to join with all Members of the House of Assembly in offering condolences and sharing in a moment of silence of behalf of their lives and their sacrifice.

MR. SPEAKER: All rise, please.

[Members rise and observe a moment of silence]

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.

Before we begin our routine proceedings today, I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge in the Speaker's gallery today the presence of Louise and Bert Dacquay. Louise is currently an MLA in the Manitoba Legislature and she is a former Speaker in that Legislative Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the gallery twelve members of the Women's Institute of Newfoundland, the Clarke Branch, accompanied by their Tour Organizer, Mrs. Doreen Coady.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, we have fifty-six Grade 9 students from St. Kevin's High School in the Goulds. These students are from the districts of Kilbride and Ferryland and they are accompanied by teachers Dan Lavallee, Tina Rowe and Tracey Saunders.

Could you welcome them, please?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the gallery today, Mayor Robert Elliot of the community of Point Leamington, accompanied by councillors, Clarence Warford and Frazer Stuckless.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to one of this Province's and Canada's pioneering journalists, an individual who I have had an opportunity over the years to share a microphone with but not to have worked with during my time at CBC, Mr. Harold Andrew Brown, known to us all as Harry.

Harry Brown passed away at the age of seventy-two on March 30, 2002, leaving a legacy of five decades of broadcasting to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as well as to Canadians.

He began work at VOCM in 1951, and also worked at CJON in that time until 1957, when he joined the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

He made his mark here in local television with such programs as The Doyle Bulletin, Kitchen Corner, Come All Ye Round, All Around The Circle, and of course Here and Now before moving to Toronto in 1968, where his influence became part of Canada's everyday lives. He was the original co-host of As It Happens with Barbara Frum and hosted and co-hosted such programs as Morningside, Marketplace, Take 30, CBC Toronto's Metro Morning show where he won an ACTRA award in 1978 for excellence in broadcasting and TV Ontario's program Speaking Out.

He is also recognized for Where Once They Stood, a program that is still fondly remembered by many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as well as his tireless efforts in fundraising, in particular for the Janeway Hospital.

I offer condolences on behalf of all members of the House of Assembly to his wife Mary, daughter Robin, and sons Harold, Murray, Keith, and Chris.

Harry will be remembered for his pride in this Province, his wit and warm personality, and will be sadly missed by all of us who had the pleasure of knowing him.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform the House of the Twin Cities Boxing Club in conjunction with the Mount Pearl Sport Alliance, will be hosting the National Boxing Championships, the Commonwealth Games Trials for Senior Men and the World Championship Trials for Senior Women at the Glacier in Mount Pearl from April 25 to April 28.

The hosting of these three tournaments in our Province is a first time occurrence and a highlight for amateur boxing enthusiasts in our region. As a matter of fact, this is the largest Boxing Championships ever held in Canada at one time. Approximately 130 boxers, coaches, officials, trainers, Boxing Canada Executives and medical personnel will be here for the championships.

Congratulations are due, Mr. Speaker, to the fifteen-member hosting committee that have worked so diligently and successfully to bring these championships to Newfoundland and Labrador.

The championships will get under way next Thursday afternoon, April 25 and will continue until Sunday, April 28. On Friday evening, April 26, there will be a Vegas style evening with a greet and meet between 4:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. followed by a Boxing Dinner Show.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I commend the Twin Cities Boxing Club for bringing this special event to our Province and for offering our boxing enthusiasts an opportunity to see some of the very best boxing in the world today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) boxer now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: You better remember it too.

MR. JOYCE: To the Member from Bonavista South, 0 and 23 is not a bad record.

Mr. Speaker, this past weekend I had the honour to attend the Cox's Cove Volunteer Fire Department Annual Firemen's Ball.

At this event, several people received recognition for their valuable service to the community. A special honour was bestowed to retiring firefighter Elwin Park who was a founding member of the brigade in 1982. He received his twenty-year service pin. Deputy Fire Chief, Wayne Payne, was chosen by his compatriots as the town's Firefighter of the Year.

Nine other members were honoured. Chief Alex Park, Captain Derek Lovell and medical technician Hughie Noseworthy received fifteen-year service pins. Ten-year service pins were awarded to Deputy Chief Payne, Training Captain Cyril Wheeler, Ron Payne, Paul Gillingham and Harvey Payne. Firefighter Darren Park, received a pin for five years of service.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to make special mention of another group that attended last weekend's event; the forty-seven women who make up the Firettes. This group has raised tens of thousands of dollars to ensure that necessary firefighting equipment is available. Their role in ensuring that the Cox's Cove Volunteer Fire Department continues to serve should be recognized.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join me in commending all the people across this Province who, like the people in Cox's Cove, make volunteer fire departments the fine services they are.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to congratulate Dr. Trent Keough, a native of Harbour Grace, who has been appointed President of the College of the North Atlantic's new campus in Qatar. Dr. Keough has worked at the College of the North Atlantic for the past eight years. He served at the college's Carbonear campus before moving to the Stephenville campus where he served as Director of Programs; a position he held since his recent promotion as President of the Qatar campus.

The College of the North Atlantic signed a ten-year contract for $500 million with the Middle East country in June of 2001. This is the largest contract signed by a Canadian post-secondary educational institution. The contract calls for the college to develop a technical training institute using Canadian curriculum and Canadian standards. The programs at the Qatar campus will be identical to the programs offered throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The campus will bring the very best of Canadian technical education to Qatar and will employ approximately forty Newfoundlanders and Labradorians by the time it opens in September.

Dr. Keough received his Ph.D. at Queens University and his appointment as the first President of the Qatar campus shows that people from this Province can lead the world in the field of education. Other appoints include Enid Strickland, who will serve as Vice-President, Rick Penney will serve as Director of Finance and Administration, and Brenda Newhook will serve as Director of Student Services.

I ask the Members of the House of Assembly to join me in congratulating these individuals and wish them success in Qatar.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

 

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased in the House today to recognize a tremendous accomplishment by some talented residents of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Last night, the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir, conducted by Susan Knight, won the grand prize at the 14th CBC Choral Competition for Amateur Choirs. This award, the Canada Council for the Arts Healey Willan Grand Prize, includes a $5,000 monetary prize. The Grand Prize also includes a special broadcast of the winning performance by CBC Radio Two and La Chaine Culturelle de Radio-Canada.

This is a great honour for the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir at this national competition and they should be commended for their talent and hard work.

The Choral Competition is a national event which awards prizes for first- and second-place winners in ten different categories. The Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir competed in the Youth Choirs (Equal Voice) category. As a national semi-finalist in this category, the choir competed against another youth choir from Ontario to win and claim the $3,000 top prize.

I also acknowledge the Quintessential Vocal Ensemble who, under the direction of Susan Quinn, was the second-place winner in the Mixed Choirs category and was awarded a prize of $2,000. The core group of this choir consists of graduate members of the Holy Heart Chamber Choir. This choir has also won numerous awards in its ten-year history, including winning first place in the Adult Category of the Canadian Federation of Music Festivals in 2001.

Mr. Speaker, at this competition, the international jury picks one choir from all who have competed to receive the Healey Willan Grand Prize. The award is presented to the choir which gives the most convincing performance in musicianship, technique and program, and we are very proud the jury unanimously selected the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir from among other youth choirs as well as adult, chamber and church choirs from all across Canada who competed in the ten different categories.

Mr. Speaker, this is yet another honour for the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir which has received numerous awards and acclamations since it was founded in 1992. That includes an East Coast Music Association award. They are wonderful ambassadors for this Province. They have traveled nationally and internationally, singing our songs and sharing our culture. As Susan Knight herself said, this award is a great affirmation of our place.

I congratulate both choirs and their conductors for this tremendous accomplishment and I wish them all the best in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, on this side, would like to join in passing congratulations to those two musical groups. Mr. Speaker, normally it is customary for a minister, if she has a Ministerial Statement to make, to share it with the critic on the opposite side so they would have a chance to read it and respond to it. This is the first that I have heard about this particular Ministerial Statement, but we too join in offering our congratulations and thanks to the people who go forward and represent this Province. It is no surprise that we have Newfoundlanders, whether they be musical groups or whether they be groups taking part in other events such as hockey and badminton, to go forward, represent the Province, and make us proud. We have shown many times that we can compete not only with our own but with Canada and the world.

I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation that maybe she should have a chat with the Minister of Education as well, to inform her of the importance of music in this Province, because it seems as though every time we get -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: It seems as though every time there is a cutback in programs or a cutback in positions in our school system, one of the first departments to go is music. So, I suggest that you talk to your counterpart, the Minister of Education, and maybe we can enlighten her into the importance of music in this Province and in our country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join in congratulating Susan Knight and the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Orchestra as well as the Quintessential Vocal Ensemble for their great success on the national level in demonstrating the standard of excellence that they are known for. In fact, in this Province there is quite a following and interest in vocal music and choral music. We hosted the Festival 500 Voices a couple of years ago and it has become a real event internationally as well. We do know, of course, this is built on a history of musical education in this Province going back many decades and, as the Member for Bonavista South had mentioned, it is very important that this be continued in our schools.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: I just want to make a personal comment. These young singers sing for the joy of singing. They are all amateurs and I just want to say: Christmastime I was in the hospital visiting someone who did not want to be in hospital over Christmas. Along the corridor we heard these voices, singing voices, and pretty soon in came seven young women dressed off in their costume that they wear in their choir, and they were like vocal angels. They sang two or three Christmas carols for the shear joy of doing it and giving pleasure to the patients in the hospital. It is a real testament to their dedication to music, to giving joy, enjoying singing and offering their talent to those to listen to. This is a good example of how that has been recognized on the national level. They are due sincere congratulations on behalf of all of us here today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions this afternoon are for the hon. the Premier. Yesterday, less than twenty-four hours after the Liberal fundraiser in Toronto, Scott Hand, the CEO of Inco said in a statement basically, and addressed to the shareholders on the 100th Anniversary of Inco said: There has been significant progress in negotiations with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. There are only a few outstanding items to be resolved. Premier Grimes and he had agreed to sit down shortly to hammer out the details.

When asked to comment on Inco's statement yesterday the Premier said he was suggesting that the CEO of Inco was getting ahead of himself.

Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is, I will ask the Premier: Is he suggesting that the CEO of Inco is misleading his shareholders contrary to Canadian securities, an offence under Canadian Securities regulations, or will he come clean? Will he talk about the significant progress in negotiations, the few outstanding items to be resolved and, in fact, whether they have agreed to sit down shortly and hammer out the details? Can you answer those three questions for me, Premier?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can report this to the Legislature that I do know that Mr. Hand was very proud to be speaking to his shareholders at their annual meeting on the occasion of the 100th Anniversary of Inco in Canada, because that is significant. It is significant for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and for this Legislature because we have been working since 1996, trying to find a way with Inco to develop a nickel deposit in Labrador for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We have been working very hard through the Minister of Mines and Energy since last June to try to find a way to develop a nickel deposit in Labrador for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased - and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition read The Telegram today - and I would welcome that sense of optimism, and I hope that Mr. Hand is right. All I can tell people of Newfoundland and Labrador, as I have said before, is that it is well known in this Province the general nature of the arrangement that we are trying to come to with Inco so that we can have this development occur. The people of the Province know that we support making the development happen for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. The difficulty is they do not know if the Opposition is for or against the development, and on what particular basis; and whether or not they see a reasonable accommodation and negotiations being the right way to go.

So, Mr. Speaker, we are continuing on. There are no meetings scheduled between myself and Mr. Hand.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: We have agreed some time ago that we do know that in the final analysis there will need to be some final meeting between the two of us, but it is certainly not scheduled yet. I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As always when we come to this issue the Premier refuses to answer any of the questions. He makes allegations outside the House that the CEO of Inco is running ahead of himself, but refuses to answer. It is the mark of an open, accountable and transparent government. The only thing transparent in this House is that man over there because we can see right through him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Let's talk a little more about what Mr. Hand has said. Mr. Hand also said that during earlier negotiations: the Province wanted an ironclad guarantee that we will proceed with a commercial hydromet plant. He said: I could not give it.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: Can he confirm, for the people of Argentia, for the people of Placentia, and indeed for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, if he will, in fact, secure that ironclad guarantee from Inco for a commercial hydromet plant as part of a proposed deal with Inco?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted any time the Leader of the Opposition asks about hydromet technology because, Mr. Speaker, I think that is also well-known to the media and the people of the Province that it is a technology that requires some further research and development. Mr. Speaker, nobody right now today is in a position - nobody is an a position - to give an ironclad guarantee that hydromet technology, which is the point that was raised, that hydromet technology will work and will be the kind of plant that is built in Argentia.

Mr. Speaker, it relates back to the issue not of trusting anyone, but that the Government of Canada apparently is willing to invest many tens of thousands or tens of millions of dollars in doing research and development which the Blue Book from the Official Opposition says: a PC government will aggressively invest in research and development to aid in the development of new business opportunities in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, but on this matter where the Government of Canada is expressing a willingness to spend federal dollars on research and development in Newfoundland and Labrador so that somebody might be able to give an ironclad guarantee that hydromet technology will work, the Leader of the Opposition, on ten or fifteen or twenty different occasions in the Province, has changed his reason each time, Mr. Speaker, but every time has found a reason to say: I am -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - against it. I think the money should be used for something else. I do not agree with the federal government spending research and development dollars in Newfoundland and Labrador -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: - to prove up a brand new technology that will see us leading the world.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: The answer quite simply is: No, there is no guarantee of a commercial facility for the people of Argentia and Placentia. That is the answer time and time again.

More importantly again, Mr. Speaker, another very important issue. Yesterday, Inco disclosed their plans for the use of iron ore in Voisey's Bay - what they were going to do with it. I am sorry, nickel. Their CEO said that the nickel mine in Thompson - and my apologies to my friends in the gallery - their CEO said that the nickel mine in Thompson, Manitoba, has nearly run out. It is actually, in fact, nearly depleted, as well as their operations in Sudbury. They are going to use our ore from Voisey's Bay as an external feed for those mines. That is the term. We are now feed for the mines in Manitoba and in Ontario.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is, and I ask: Why has our world-class nickel find, our world-class project, been reduced to feed for the veracious appetites of smelters in Manitoba and Ontario? Why we have no guarantee, we have no guarantee - hon. members might laugh - this is a very serious matter. You are all laughing! This is the future of our Province we are talking about here!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I believe the hon. member has asked his question.

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand and recognize that the Leader of the Opposition was getting a little exercised and a little agitated in asking the question, and made a couple of mistakes. He did, at the end, talk about: you do not feed a mine. He did say we were going to feed a mine. We do need feed, is the language used in the industry for smelters and refiners, which he did talk about at the end.

Mr. Speaker, the issue is this: the Leader of the Opposition again, trying to be a little bit cute about it and not wanting to tell the people of Newfoundland and Labrador why he really won't support research and development so we can have leading-edge technology here, moved quickly from hydromet technology, which is what Mr. Hand talked about. Mr. Hand, rightfully so, because he is an honest, straightforward person who is leading a very reputable company with a 100-year history in the country, did say that nobody today can give a guarantee on a hydromet facility.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: The Leader of the Opposition turned around then and said: Why is that there is no guarantee that there will be a commercial processing facility? Which is a different language, a different word and a different concept, because those who have studied the industry and the sector a bit know that there are several different types of processing capabilities -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: - and technologies. The one we are trying to get to work for Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, is hydromet technology -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: - but some (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the point is that this Premier and this government are going to give away a $50 billion-plus asset without any guarantees for the people of our Province. That is the problem here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr .Speaker, at the shareholders meeting yesterday, Mr. Hand also said: The external feed - that is what we are, an external feed. That is the term he used - from Voisey's Bay will keep operations in Thompson and Ontario productive and competitive for a long, long time. We are going to keep them going with our ore for a long time.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

He also said that they were going to relentlessly cut costs and hope to create 300 new jobs in Sudbury this year. Three hundred new jobs with our ore.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the member now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: If Inco hopes to use our Voisey's Bay ore to keep Manitoba and Ontario productive and competitive for a long period of time, what about our ore? What about our project? What about our families? What about our jobs? What about our future? Shouldn't this project be for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Charity begins at home, Premier!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do, despite the vicious and angry looking attack, take comfort - he is angry, Mr. Speaker. He does acknowledge that, for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I do take great comfort in this because the same Leader of the Opposition, who is admitting that he is angry today, has stated for the public record - unless it changes, because they has been known to happen, too - that has been known to happen - he has stated, for the public record, that if, in fact, in his reasoned moments, and his non-angry moments, Mr. Speaker, he has stated that he will support the government if they can deliver a project and deliver, in this particular case, an agreement, an arrangement, whereby any raw material that leaves comes back. I believe he has been on the public record as saying that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER GRIMES: Oh, he is not on the public record; so that is a change, Mr. Speaker. That has now changed. I guess, again, we do not know what his position is. Maybe he will stand up afterwards and in a guise of question tell us what it is.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, that if we reach our objective, which has always been to have nickel ore turned into a finished nickel product in Newfoundland and Labrador, all of it, Mr. Speaker, over the life of the project, all of it over the life of the project turned into a finished nickel product, right here in Newfoundland and Labrador, he has been on the record as saying -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - he will support and endorse that if we can accomplish it. So, to use the language of Mr. Hand, from yesterday, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: - stay tuned.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: You had better believe I will stay tuned, because I am not going to let you sell us out.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: You can take that to the bank!

Mr. Speaker, we have heard the Premier talk about equivalent ore, that is the weasel words, equivalent ore. We are going to get equivalent ore back. Two premises for equivalent ore. First of all, it will only come back, Mr. Speaker, if there is a reason for bringing it back.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary and we need no preambles. The hon. member should get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: If there is no guarantee that there will be a commercial hydromet facility, there is nothing for it to come back to, premise one. Secondly, if the Thompson ore is depleted and Sudbury has been on the go for 100 years, where is this magic ore going to come from that you are going to return to this Province? Do you know, Premier? Because there is no guarantee from Inco that we are ever going to get anything back. Do you know why you don't care? Because you will not be around to see it. That is why.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, again let me say this. I do take great comfort in the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has stated for the public record that, when those kinds of questions are answer to the affirmative and to the satisfaction of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, that he will support this deal. I look forward to that day being sooner rather than later.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my position and the position of the caucus has always been that we will definitely support the right deal for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, no question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, without guarantees, this Province could find itself in the position in five to seven years whereby there is no hydromet facility, there is no ore coming back to the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: - and another 55,000 people have left this Province, probably gone to Manitoba and probably gone to Ontario.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary now; I ask him to get to his question quickly.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: Will you please reconsider your reckless and foolhardy position on Inco -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: - and safeguard the interests and the jobs and the families and the future of this Province? Please, Premier!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

Mr. Speaker, we understand that as of March 31, 2002, just a couple of months ago, the health boards in this Province had an accumulated deficit of roughly $120 million. Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm today that there are some chartered banks in this Province who are expressing concern about the rapid rate of increase of the debts of these health boards, the rapid increase in the size of the overdrafts and the increase in the lines of credit of these boards; so much so that they are not going to renew their lines of credit this year without having significant preconditions attached to them? Can the minister confirm that for the House today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is she gone into bankruptcy, Premier?

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the hon. Member for Bonavista South: No, indeed, she is not gone into bankruptcy.

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it sounds (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has recognized the hon. minister.

MR. SMITH: I would say to the hon. member, when he gets referred to as the Minister for Health and Community Services then he can rise and speak to the - and I think that is sometime down the road.

Mr. Speaker, to the issue -

AN HON. MEMBER: With the competition between Ross and Sheila over there, Roger, you are not going to get in.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a serious issue that the hon. member raises. We are all aware of the difficulties that we have been confronted with in this Province in the last number of years in trying to meet the challenges that are out there. Indeed, the hospital boards have been working diligently, as have the officials of my department working with them, in coming up with a plan to deal with the long-term debt. This is no surprise to the people in this Province, and surely to anyone in this House, the challenges that we have faced in trying to meet the increasing demands in health care.

I just made a presentation to the Romanow Commission on Monday which outlined the fact that the costs of delivering health care in this Province have been increasing significantly in recent years, and this has been coupled with the fact that during that same period of time we have seen a decline in the amount of support that has been coming from the federal government. The math is fairly simple, and it is fairly easy to understand the challenges that we have had and the difficulties that we have had.

Mr. Speaker, we are working closely with the Health Care Corporations in dealing with their deficit problems. The budgets for this year have not yet been finalized. I do say to the hon. member that this minister is -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. SMITH: - confident that working with the very capable people we have working for the Health Care Corporations we will be able to come to a satisfactory resolution.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm for the House today that he has advised the health boards to only pay the interest on that debt and to make no effort in debt reduction at all in this year? Will the minister confirm he has told the boards that, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing what a change in view, what a change in perspective can make with a person's outlook. It is amazing. This is the same individual who, a little over a year ago from this vantage point over here, had a completely different perspective on the state of health care in this Province. Also, it is amazing that just by walking this distance to that distance what a change has been made inside the head of that individual.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: I am at a loss to understand how things could have changed so significantly in that simple walk.

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province are well aware of the commitment of this government. Last year some 44 per cent of our budget was expended on health care. In this present year, forty-five cents of every dollar will be spent on health care. That is our commitment to health care. That is a commitment of this government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the minister, that was a very enlightening walk, a walk that was a path well lit -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: - and a walk that was well directed and well-intended, and there are 120 million other reasons why the walk took place.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, will the minister today acknowledge that the real reason that he told the boards not to do anything with their $120 million debt, the reason he told boards not to borrow it, because it would require government guarantee and it would show as an expense on this year's books and he was trying to hide a $120 million deficit from this year's budget? Will he confirm today that is what he did?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, again, it is absolutely amazing. To begin with, certainly the hon. member, as I mentioned earlier, is referencing a very serious issue. There is no question. We are all aware of that. This is nothing enlightening that he is bringing to the floor of the House today. The thing that is really enlightening to me, and certainly to the people on this side of the House and, indeed, to the people of his own district and the people of this Province, is how he can rationalize in a radio provincial affairs which he did back in April, 2001, in which he says: In the last five years there has been a 40 per cent increase in the annual contribution to operating health care services. It has increased from $1 billion in 1996 to about $1.4 billion in 2001-2002, and such an unprecedented commitment of funds cannot go unnoticed, but it is clear that this government has proven and continues to demonstrate it -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. SMITH: - and is committed to providing good health care for the people of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say it any better.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the abuses of foreign nations outside our 200-mile limit have been widely reported in recent months. The latest event was highlighted in the manifest of the Russian trawler, Tynda that landed in Bay Roberts. It reported one ton of cod liver on-board, yet only reported 7.6 tons of cod in its catch. It had thirty-four tons of fish meal with no indication of what species the fish meal came from and left port with eighty tons of fish remaining on-board with no disclosure of the species.

My question for the provincial minister is this: How is the provincial Fisheries Minister informed of the activities in the NAFO regulatory area? Is there a timely flow of information from his federal counterpart, or does he find out about it like everybody else in the Province when it is reported in the media?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government, since 1989, is well aware of the problem that we face with foreign overfishing on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks as well as the Flemish Cap. We have been fighting that battle since 1989 with the Tory government in Ottawa at the time, from 1989 to 1993, along with the previous government in Ottawa. We put aside $100,000 two weeks ago in the Budget for a foreign overfishing campaign to enlighten our neighbours in Canada as to the need to do something to prevent what is happening to our fish stocks on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks. Again, I ask the hon. members opposite, along with FANL and the union, who are already onside, to help us fight that battle, not only in Canada but as well as in the EU.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Once again, as he has done so many times in recent days, the minister speaks about working together on this issue. Well, I will borrow the minister's own words on this at this time, Mr. Speaker. I will ask him: Will he stop, as he said in the last couple of days, playing cheap politics with this? Will he denounce the federal minister, the federal inaction? Will he take a stand, announce his strategy, join the fight that he has been silent on and absent from on foreign overfishing off the coast of this Province? We will then stand with him on this issue, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

He talks about joining him and the Opposition in Ottawa - the Tory Party in Ottawa I guess he is talking about - in fighting the foreign overfishing campaign. I can remember sitting in the Fisheries Minister's office in Ottawa, one Mr. John Crosbie, who was the Federal Fisheries Minister at the time, and he told us that there was no way that he could get his government to go along with sending out the Armed Forces on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks because he would never be able to convince the then minister of External Affairs, Joe Clark, to take action. Now, that is the people that he wants us to join sides with in Ottawa.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not concerned about what happened -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has recognized the hon. Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

As the minister knows, this years targeted tourism initiative for Labrador is called Access North-Labrador 2002. We thought: Finally, Labrador is going to get the attention it deserves as a great destination for tourism. Imagine the disappointment, I say to the minister, when I, and others, were looking through the latest issue of Canadian Maclean's magazine and saw a three full-page ad for tourism related to this Province and not one of them mentioning Labrador. The same ads, I say to the minister, ran in Time magazine on the March 25 issue.

When the Access North program was launched the previous minister stated that as of 2002 everything was ready for the launching of Labrador as a tourism destination. I ask the minister: Given the fact that there is an emphasis on Labrador tourism this year, why are full-page ads running in national magazines that do not include one mention of Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, this very excellent marketing campaign that all of us have seen in the magazines that the member has mentioned is just one facet of our marketing program for the Province as a whole, and in this case it is a generic piece of marketing which is intended to attract people generally to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is every intention of also doing very specific marketing around Access North - Labrador 2002 celebrations. In fact, Destination Labrador has prepared a marketing plan which will lay out a strategy which positions Labrador in the key markets across the country and internationally.

The member can expect to see some very high quality targeted marketing on Labrador in the days and weeks to come that will certainly focus on the unspoiled environment that we have there on the Moravian Celebrations and on the excellent outdoor, very unique, sport-type opportunities that exist. So there will be followup to this marketing. It is just one piece of our overall campaign for the year.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, that may be all well and fine, but it may be a little too late. Most people do not want until June to decide what they are going to do for their vacation that year.

I ask the minister: Given the fact that this is a year that is designated to tourism in Labrador, will the minister guarantee that in future ads, whether it be for this year or years to come, that when there is mass advertising in national magazines, will there be some area of that ad dedicated to Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should provide a few more details, then, on some of the ads that will be provided here. We are talking about running a full colour-print ad in Ontario and in the Maritimes that will feature Labrador. We are talking about a four-page insert in the Maritime newspapers, in the Toronto Star, that are featuring Newfoundland and Labrador, and Labrador specifically. We are talking about direct mail of a CD to 70,0000 households across the country, that includes the wonderful video that has been developed on Labrador, Spirit in the Stone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: So, there is a lot more that will be happening in Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition today to be presented here in the House. The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland, in legislative session convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland:

WHEREAS Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista has not been upgraded since it was paved approximately twenty-five year ago; and

WHEREAS this section of Route 235 is in such a terrible condition that vehicles are being damaged, including the school buses serving schools in the area, and school children are finding their daily trips over the road very difficult;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to upgrade and pave the approximately four kilometers of Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, this particular part of Route 235 is on the lower end of the peninsula from Birchy Cove leading into Bonavista. Approximately six kilometers of roadway there has been in deplorable condition. People from outside the area have written letters. I have received petitions with names on them from pretty well all across the country, because it is a popular place in the summertime. Tourists congregate to this area to see the beauty and to see the nature of the Bonavista Peninsula.

Mr. Speaker, I have had the minister down over that section of roadway twice in this last year, to his credit. He has made two trips down over that section of roadway. Last year we were fortunate enough to get 1.9 kilometers of that stretch of roadway upgraded and paved. We are still looking for approximately three-and-a-half to four kilometers.

Mr. Speaker, a few years ago there were many meetings that took place. The former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, now the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, made the trip down with me and knows full well the deplorable condition of this stretch of roadway. In the past two years, I have had two ministers and the deputy minister down looking at this particular stretch of roadway and they have all agreed that something needs to be done with it. The problem is, it never seems to get done. This section of roadway, this five kilometers, has now been attempted to be repaired and upgraded for a five-year period. We have gone down there and done ditching one year, and put in culverts. The next year we have gone down there and we have done 400 meters. Another year we went down there and did a small section of roadway which I would say was about 150 meters. Last year we did 1.9 kilometers and we are still asking and begging and pleading with the government of the day to come and upgrade and repave this section of roadway, one of the main highways leading into the Town of Bonavista.

Approximately three years ago, the residents in the area there wanted to highlight the concern and the need to have this road upgraded and repaved.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, just a minute to conclude, if I may.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, being responsible, they did not want to go out and block the roadway. They did not want to stop people from going to work. They did not want to stop seniors from accessing health care. They did not want to stop school children from going to school. What they did is, they stood on this section of highway, I say to you, Premier, and they handed out pamphlets to ask people for their support. That is how understanding those people have been.

The plea, Mr. Speaker, is simple. The plea is to have this section of roadway considered in this year's capital budget to go and upgrade and pave the approximately three kilometers of the main roadway leading from the end of Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Barbe.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, have a petition on the roads in the District of St. Barbe, which are in deplorable condition, and I will read the prayer now.

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador in legislative session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador;

WHEREAS the District of St Barbe is in a desperate need of road improvements; and

WHEREAS the District of St. Barbe supports large amounts of traffic especially during tourist season; and

WHEREAS many roads in the District of St. Barbe have deteriorated to the point where they are a safety risk;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to invest in the necessary restoration and improvements so that persons using the roads in the District of St. Barbe may do so without compromising their safety, as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, as I have just read, much of the District of St. Barbe is in a deplorable condition. As the minister who toured the district, just a few weeks ago, can attest to himself. The roads have continuously deteriorated and last year we did not see any improvements whatsoever, and there were no sections of the road done. One of the things that we have done on the Northern Peninsula is turn to tourism since the cod moratorium, hoping that this would supply jobs for the much needed shortage of work.

One of the areas I would think that the minister should be looking at is down in Gros Morne where the park will be doing so much of their road upgrading this year, and out of that is the Sally's Cove enclave which the Province is responsible for. If the park is going to do the 6.4 kilometres maybe the minister should look at the 4.2 kilometres in the Sally's Cove enclave.

As well, Mr. Speaker, maybe the minister would consider up in the Anchor Point area. I think he had taken the time to go and see the mayor there and look at the conditions of the road. Anchor Point is one of the more fortune communities on the Northern Peninsula with a shrimp plant and the heavy traffic, because of that plant, has made living in that community unbearable in the summertime. So, I think it would be a suggestion maybe if the minister would consider that as well. The thing that the minister must remember is that road is twenty-five years old or older and much of it needs to be resurfaced.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of residents of Labrador West, and indeed all Labrador in some cases. I will read the petition:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents, humbly sheweth;

WHEREAS the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund was set up with $347.6 million from the federal government for transportation in Labrador; and

WHEREAS this fund requires that money in the fund - the act requires that money in this fund be used for the maintenance of marine and ferry services to Labrador, construction of the Trans-Labrador Highway, and other initiatives related to transportation in Labrador; and

WHEREAS the Liberal Government announced in the 2002 Budget that $97 million would be taken out of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund and added to the general revenues of the Province to be used for purposes outside this act.

We the undersigned petitioners believe that the raiding of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund is a gross violation of the purposes of this fund and a breach of trust with the people of Labrador and hereby petition the House of Assembly to direct the government to immediately put this $97 million back into the fund to be spent on transportation initiatives in Labrador.

I can say, Mr. Speaker, that $97 million could be easily spent on transportation initiatives in Labrador. When we look at the vast amount of road network that is already established, that will require constant upgrading because it is a gravel road that in the spring of the year certainly encounters major transportation problems with washouts and with softening of the road. Maintenance is always something that will be required to be done throughout different periods of the year in order to make it fit for the travelling public.

In addition to that, the number of businesses that use that highway to transport their goods are increasing each year. So, it is a priority for a lot of people who live in Labrador and who do business in Labrador, that this road be maintained in a good condition. We have a fear, Mr. Speaker, that will not be able to be done, given the fact that now roadwork in Labrador will have to compete with roadwork on the Island portion of the Province for the same few dollars that is available throughout all of the regions; whereas prior to this, we had a pool of money that we could draw on - even the interest - that would improve road conditions. What we got for this $97 million was a promise, and people keep referring to ‘over the next six years'. Well that is not really true because it is six years from the time the environmental impact study is done and that is not completed yet, and may not be for some time to come. We got a promise that six years following that we will have a link between Cartwright and Goose Bay.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. COLLINS: Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

We do not believe, the people in Labrador - many of the people I speak to and talk to - do not believe that this will happen as the government says it will because the money will just not be there to do it. We had the money and now the government intends to take that, and we feel that the section of highway to hook up the Labrador Highway complete is in jeopardy by this move.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present yet another petition from my district, Mr. Speaker. Today it is from the people in Jackson's Cove, Langdon's Cove, Harry's Harbour, that area of the Province. In the Green Bay section of my district, and I will make note of that in a minute. I want to read the petition first:

We, the undersigned residents of the district, do hereby petition the House of Assembly to upgrade and pave our roads. The deplorable and unfit conditions of the roads in our area make travelling to and from school unsafe for our children, as well as jeopardize the safety of the travelling public; but also hurt economic growth opportunities and betray a lack of commitment to rural areas of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, this is a another petition, as I said, I am presenting to this House today when we talk about roads; but the people who always sign these petitions say the same thing. They do not want to be going door-to-door getting petitions signed because they have a gravel road that they have to go over every single day.

The people in Green Bay, Mr. Speaker - as a matter of fact I will make this statement, that many people over the past have said that Mr. Peckford, former Premier of this Province, that was part of his district - he believed that every single road was done in Green Bay. Well, I am here to tell you that it is not. This particular road is probably one of the most deplorable gravel roads that I have ever seen. As a matter of fact, there are even people in the depot - the minister's own people who work in the department - when a request for a grader is given to at least do that, they turn around and say it is not even worth grading anymore. There is nothing left there to grade. They have been grading it for so long that it has gone down to bedrock. That is the problem we have now, besides the fact we have these gravel roads; then you turn around and you have 1,500, 1,600 kilometres of old paved road. They are starting to crack and pop up. So now we have a double problem of gravel roads in the Province and old pavement in this Province.

As my colleague from St. Barbe talked about earlier today on the Northern Peninsula, up in The Straits & White Bay North, in Bonavista South, and throughout the Province; in Twillingate, where I was a couple of weekends ago. It is all over the Province. We have a major problem that has been accumulating and escalating in this Province that has never really been addressed.

Over the last ten or twelve years, Mr. Speaker, it is simple mathematics when you look at $18 million to $20 million again this year. The minister knows, and everybody in this House knows, that he has at least a demand for $300 million worth of work that needs to be done; that is urgent. Mr. Speaker, how is it going to work? It cannot work. That is not a plan. All that is, is every year a one-stop gap where we try to calm people down in the spring of the year by putting out a couple of kilometres here, a couple of kilometees there, settling everybody down. It is not a plan. The truth is, the problem has gotten so large now that the only real solution is for this government to go with their cousins in Ottawa to come up with a new program, a federal-provincial program. It is the only way to attack the magnitude of this problem now.

Here are people in this part of Green Bay, Mr. Speaker, with over fifteen kilometres of gravel roads, school children every morning getting on a bus, beating up and down that road. It is hard enough to encourage your children sometimes to keep in school, but if you have to do that every morning that is another obstacle in their way. That is something else you have to convince them that you have to do what you have to do.

Mr. Speaker, there are times when people call me from this district and say: I feel like I am going over a scrub board. There are other times they tell me they are going down in potholes and their cars are being damaged and so on. It is just simply that people are sick and tired that in the year 2002, in Newfoundland and Labrador, we have gravel roads. It is unimaginable if you stop to think about it. What they are asking is: Where is the priority in spending going? On things that are necessary like roads, water and sewer and so on, that is where they think the money should be spent.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people in Green Bay, Harry's Harbour, Jacksons Cove, Langdon's Cove, Silverdale, these people believe they deserve a sensible transportation route from their community, just like anybody else in this Province. They do not want double-lane highways, just a simple bit of upgrading and some pavement for these people.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SHELLEY: I support this petition, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 2, Mr. Speaker, and I move that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of Supply

 

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Today I understand under the Orders of the Day we will be dealing with the Consolidated Fund services for the Province. For the people of the Province listening, this is a very technical issue, but I think it is obviously a very important one. It speaks to the expenditures made which represent the interest costs to the Province and the management expenses associated with servicing the public debt of our Province, and also the funding of our pension plans. So, as the day goes through, I will be happy to answer the questions. Again, I will provide the best detail I can. If there is further information required, I will be happy to provide that information to the member opposite.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Could I ask the Clerk, perhaps, to call the first Head.

CLERK: 1.1.01

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have questions on the first item, 1.1.01., Temporary Borrowings. Appropriations provide for interest expenses on temporary borrowings. Last year it was $400,000 spent on that item, and forecasted this year is $500,000. What was the total amount at any one particular time? I would assume it must have been in the $10 million range. Would that be accurate? If not, could the minister give me the specifics on that particular one?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are varying amount, but I think that is about accurate, approximately $10 million.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am just judging. The reason I asked that amount is because I am just assuming, at ongoing interest rates, I am just taking a shot at what the interest would be. If there is a variation there, I guess it will be picked up in due course in answers to the questions.

Mr. Chairman, will I move on to 1.1.02., or do you wish to call each one?

CHAIR: No, it is my understanding that we will debate the entire (inaudible) of the bill.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

I will make reference to 1.1.02., Treasury Bills. That is the interest expense on Treasury bills borrowings. When you look at that amount of $17.5 million, I would assume we are probably talking about what? In the $400 million range? Would that be inaccurate? Could the minister give me a rough figure that we had out, in total, to garner that amount of interest?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, the exact amount is $494 million dollars.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The next one is Debentures. That is an actual amount paid there on debentures. It provides for interest expenses on debenture debt and other borrowings. That amount in total there was $453 million. I guess, when we look at Appendix II, it would show what our debt is. In the next one, too, I will just make reference to both the Canada Pension Plan of $62.5 million. I think if we reference Appendix II, I think that one is spelled out pretty clear there. I think Appendix II shows that our Canada Pension Plan totals $62,565,500. If we total all that up, I think we are talking about maybe in the vicinity of $600 million, I would assume, borrowings on the Canada Pension Plan. Would that be correct? I guess the total of each of those there is in that ballpark anyway. That would be the only expense under this item. I cannot see anything else. Would that be accurate, I ask the minister?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: What number is that?

MR. SULLIVAN: Under 1.1.04. That is strictly our borrowing, I am assuming, under the Canada Pension Plan, which are listed in Appendix II at the back of the Budget document there. It shows the different - I think there are fourteen different borrowing terms. There is a twenty-year term on the Canada Pension borrowings, I understand. Each of these are listed and, of course, the interest applied to this year is listed as 62-something, so that would be the only ones, I might add, that would be there? Would that be correct?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You can see under the vote, the vote is Canada Pension Plans, so it only refers to the Canada Pension Plan.

MR. SULLIVAN: Exactly the same?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Exactly the same, and they are all listed out in Appendix II of the text book.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In 1.1.05, it shows some revenue there that is revenue of available cash that you would have at any one time in the money markets or bank balances and so on. That is showing $1.5 million. If there is any big variation, maybe the minister can comment; but I am assuming we are talking in the range of $30 million usually at any given time borrowing to bring around that amount of interest.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, and the reason you can see the change is because obviously this is a very fluid piece associated with the investments, because it could be anything from overnight to a day to a week and it depends, obviously, based on the length of time and the rates at that point in time. It is very hard to predict, but obviously you are very dependent on the rates.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: I just wanted to ask the minister: What was the average rate that was received, we will say, last year? What would be the approximate amount that you would receive to receive that amount of interest?

I guess also, while I am asking that question, what would be the amount that we might have had to pay out, I guess, in 1.1.01.? What roughly was the rate that we paid on interest, and what they would receive on cash that we may have had in the money market or cash sitting in an account. If you could just give us the two ballpark figures for each one.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Right now our Treasury bills are ranging between about 2.3 per cent and 2.4 per cent. Our ninety-one day Treasury bill interest rate, which is what we do most frequently, as you know, is about 2.34 per cent. The bond ratings is about 5.5 per cent. Ten-year bonds, 6.15 per cent, and the thirty-year bonds, 6.5 per cent.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In 1.1.06: Appropriations provide for interest paid to the Province on loans to various public and private entities, as well as interest collected on loans by the Province's various lending agencies. What would be some areas, various public and private entities, that would be covered under this particular one? Could the minister mention some of those?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

This account represents the interest on a number, as you pointed out, of public and private entities, and they include some of the commercial entities and municipalities. It also includes the return of interest from collections we have made from the Fisheries Loan Board as well as the Farm Development Loan Board and ENL.

MR. SULLIVAN: I missed the last one.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: ENL. We have Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which was one of those.

MR. SULLIVAN: What would that amount be?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, there is nothing estimated for this year because it is actually paid off, but it was $243,000.

MR. SULLIVAN: The expense for last year was $243,000?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is right.

The St. John's Regional Sewer System was a 1983 account.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is a declining amount, obviously, because the principal is being reduced, so the payments now are being reduced.

MR. SULLIVAN: What is left on that now?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is predicted now, the payment for - the total amount owing over the life of it I would have to get for you, but in terms of this year's Budget and what is due is $89,100.

The other obvious one is the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, or the Department of Industry Trade and Rural Development right now. The amount there again has decreased because, in fact, we have, as you know, the policy of this government - we have delivered fewer loans. One of our policies is that we are into fewer loans. Most of those are already in place. Also, a number of our larger accounts have been settled out.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Therefore, obviously, we are collecting less because they have been settled.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Would that be the only private one, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper? I guess, if you look outside the immediate (inaudible), the St. John's Sewer one, are there any other private companies that are included in this particular section?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will repeat again, the three are: Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, St. John's Regional Sewer System, and the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, for a total of $1.53 million.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: As the number reflects in the Estimates.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you.

I guess the Department of Development and Rural Renewal is not really private, but I guess the loans are out to private people. I guess that is why.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is correct. It is an encapsulated amount of the loans that are outstanding, and many of these would be obviously to private sector companies and other arrangements associated with that department.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under 1.1.07., that is, I think, fairly explanatory. Under 1.108., Interest Subsidy - CMHC, Appropriations provide for a subsidy from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation relative to interest on debt issued for the extension and renovations completed during 1987 at the Harbour Lodge, Carbonear.

Basically, that amount here of $151,400, how long more, basically, are the subsidies going to continue? It was the same amount last year and again this year. What is the lifetime of that? Over how many years would that be before we stop receiving it? I guess we would stop receiving a subsidy, I would assume, once the debt is retired. Would that be accurate? Could the minister just give me the specifics there on how long it is projected to continue?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is to be paid over a thirty-five-year period. It started back in 1986-1987. The amounts right here, obviously, are $151,400; but, again, as the principal reduces the amount will change. But for last year and this year.... I think the amounts change every five years and they will decline appropriately. So it is a thirty-five-year arrangement. I guess there is always an option of doing a refinancing at some point in time, but right now it is a thirty-five-year arrangement that would be retired and the amounts will decline over that period of time.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I guess the reason it is the same last year and this year is because, like you said, it is a five-year term so there wouldn't be a change in the amount in that five-year period. On renewal, I guess, we would expect in the next term that it would be lower than that and it will be decreasing unless, for some reason, there had to be a refinancing which would create a different set of payment schedule and a different requirement.

Under Investment Recoveries, Capital, 1.2.01., here it says: Appropriations provide for principal recovery from various loans, advances and investments.

Could the minister tell us which loans, advances and investments, and the amount that is appropriated to each?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The schedule of the loans include Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which I just identified a moment ago now has been paid off, and I think that is very good news; Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, $900,000; Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, $10 million; St. John's Regional Sewer System - this is again more on the principal - $62,900; and the windup of the Gull Island Power Company or GIPCo, more commonly called, at $3 million. That is the total, and that adds up to the $13.9 million at the beginning of the vote.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Why would, in the last fiscal year - there was $17.687 million budgeted, but actually the revised amount is $4.7 million. Why would the difference there be $13 million less than was budgeted there in that area? Could the minister give me an explanation for that?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again this reflects, as was read in the Budget, the deferral -

MR. SULLIVAN: Deferred income.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - of $10 million, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, and also the $3 million from GIPCo, which was also deferred.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I understand the previous year, too, there were deferrals -

MS J.M. AYLWARD: There was. That is right.

MR. SULLIVAN: - from the previous year, and they have been going on now for three years, I think. This is the third year of deferrals, I understand, under the hydro one, but I think the GIPCo one, it is probably the first time for GIPCo, is it? In my understanding, that was budgeted for last but this year it was deferred revenue into this year.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: But it is not the first year for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

MR. SULLIVAN: No, it is not. I am aware of that.

The next page, 1.3.01., Various Facilities: Appropriations here provide for payments into sinking funds established for the purchase of various leased facilities at the expiration of the respective lease terms.

Could the minister provide to me, that $89,500, which leased facilities, and the amounts that are appropriated to each of these facilities?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a thirty-year lease period that will expire in 2023. It includes the facilities of Burgeo, Port Saunders and St. Lawrence, and to the best of my knowledge these are annual contributions to a special fund lump sum payment. It is not broken out individually. That is the total cost of the three of them put into that one fund. It covers those three facilities only: St. Lawrence, Burgeo and Port Saunders health care facilities.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am quite familiar with that one now, I might say to the minister, as the three Trans City ones and the particular ones that went to the highest bidder as opposed to the lowest bidder, that is normally done in a public tendering process. I think that is being adjudicated, ruled on, and the courts have rendered their judgment on that one.

What the minister is indicating, I gather, is that this is the money initially now that, at the expiration of that lease, we are going to have to pay out a certain value to buy back those facilities, where they are leased.

Initially, I didn't think there was going to be any money paid on buy back, initially. Only about a dollar. My understanding now, and I do not have a copy of those cases there but I do remember reading them back a few years ago, that we are going to have to pay back probably 60 per cent, I understand, 60 per cent of the value of those even after paying for them to have them built. That is why we are setting this aside so that government can, over that period, set aside so much a year so they can pay that to buy back those facilities now that we really do not own, that we are really only leasing now. Would the minister confirm that?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under the lease arrangements, these annual contributions, together with the earnings and the amounts, provide about $16 million towards the purchase of the facilities which will be completed at the end of a thirty-year lease period which expires in 2023, so that is correct.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: The minister is saying about $16 million we will have accumulated in that fund at the end of the period? Is that what I am hearing? I think the cost of putting them there was in the vicinity of about $28 million; $27 million or $28 million. That would be 60 per cent. Sixty percent of $28 million would be 16.8. So I would assume the facilities that we paid for out of public funds, basically, we are going to buy back. Because I think at the time, one of the companies involved in that, one major insurance company, I think, went into receivership and it had to be changed after that. I do not know all the specifics. Really what the minister is saying now is, at the end of the day when these leases are up, and I guess the lease should be up, the minister said thirty years, I think, that thirty years should be up roughly, I would assume, around 2022?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: 2023.

MR. SULLIVAN: 2023, close. So, in 2022 we are going to have to pay out roughly $16 million and we are building up so much money per year for that eventuality, I think the minister is saying.

I could talk about that one for a long time, Trans City. I am not sure whether I will do it here. I will probably leave that for Budget debate there.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I am here, whatever you want to do.

MR. SULLIVAN: I will stick to specific questions and answers in this period and I will leave that for another day.

Under Loan Guarantees-Statutory (Except Where Specified), 1.4.01.,Guarantee Fees-Non Statutory. Appropriations provide for fees charged private companies and certain Crown Corporations which have debt guaranteed by the Province. It says here; 05., Professional Services, $50,000, amount to be voted. Okay. That is Revenue - Provincial $14,059,500, Guarantee Fees - Non-Statutory.

We are looking at, I guess in that $14,059,500 that is really revenue we are getting for guaranteeing fees. Out of that fourteen I am assuming that a big chunk of that, probably in the ten to twelve range, is coming from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. I don't know the exact figure. The minister can give me that, I am sure, the big percentage of that. Maybe what I will do to make it easier, the minister can just get up and give me the amounts that we are guaranteeing for which companies, which Crown corporations or entities, and amounts for each one.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: You have moved over to Professional Fees and you are into 1.4.02. Is that correct?

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, 1.4.01 and then underneath that, 1.4.02 really because - well you can comment on the Professional Fees too. I would not mind knowing the nature of them.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Okay, I will just answer the first one first. You asked for a listing of the $14 million.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, the names and how much of each.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That includes hydro, the normal allocation, the normal loan guaranteed fees of $14 million.

MR. SULLIVAN: Fourteen for hydro?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Then there is a grouping of other corporate guarantees of $59,500.

MR. SULLIVAN: What are some of them from?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I would have to get you the list of those ones. I think there is a group of smaller ones, but I would have to get them for you. I know the bigger one, the $14 million, is Newfoundland Hydro.

MR. SULLIVAN: Are the smaller ones private companies?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will get you the information, if you want -

MR. SULLIVAN: If you could, I would appreciate it.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - and then you can have the accurate information rather than give you anything other than the facts.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: With respect to the $50,000 fees on the previous page, the Guarantee Fees; again, this is an activity for, I guess, safeguarding the Province's security for various loans and guarantees and often includes availing of the services of a certain group, or groups, to hold assets or to do the legal fees around securing -

MR. SULLIVAN: Investment dealers?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, some investment dealers. For example, this year we actually hired Ernest and Young to seek their advice on some transitional work on the CN Dockyard. So it is that kind of thing associated with professional fees and the guarantees outstanding.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Of course, hydro, I think is pretty public knowledge. We guaranteed the debt there and we are getting - that is right, $14 million, if I remember, is the fee in the Budget. I think forty-four is in deferred revenues from hydro. I think fourteen of that fifty-eight that we took, or fifty-eight point one this year that is deferred with hydro. Fourteen was guaranteed fees and, I think, forty-four was - or point one was in deferred revenue, I think.

I am certainly interested, and the minister did say she would provide that. When she does get them, which private companies - I would be interested in - that we were guaranteeing debt and collecting on there, in that case.

While I am on that I want to ask the minister: In the ones that we are paying a fee to guarantee the debt - I guess we certainly have a contingent liability on those - has there been any defaults or any problems with any of these private entities that may have cost us money to have to pay a fee?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, the minister says no. I will accept that.

The next one is Issues Under Guarantee. I guess that is on Capital, the other one was Current. Basically, this one here, "...honouring loan guarantees extended by the Province to certain private companies," if the minister could just - I guess it would be the same case. Would the minister have these or is that on the Capital side of these other ones that she would not have at the moment? If she has these, I would like to know which private companies and amounts here that are appropriate for each one.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I can provide that information. I think the main one there is the Fisheries Loan Board. We haven't actually made any further payouts at all. So, the only one was an issue under the Fisheries Loan Board. This amount really is an allocation, inasmuch as we are able to collect.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The next one, Debt Management Expenses - Statutory, under Discounts and Commissions. It says, "Appropriations provide for underwriting commissions and management fees on new capital market borrowings by the Province. Discounts and premiums on such borrowing are also reflected under this activity." Could the minister indicate - I know last year we estimated $2.8 million for Professional Services, we spent only $1,250,000, but this year we are budgeting $3,675,000. Could the minister first explain why the difference in last year? I would assume it is because the same amount of activity wasn't required. That would be the logical - if there is something other than that, I would like you to elaborate on it. This year, who are availing? I know at this point in time it is possible that all the professional services may not have been identified, because of certain transactions, but if they have, I would like to know which ones and what amounts is it anticipated these fees will be.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to sort of give you a bit of background for last year. There was an amount of $200 million Canadian borrowed. That was through a ten-year debenture. We also refinancing a maturing $100 million loan for another four years, which also, of course, allowed us to increase Treasury Board borrowings. This was all done in place of a long-term $400 million borrowing, because we had better rates on the lower ones, obviously. We are still paying the same commission for that service which is seven-tenths of 1 per cent, .7 per cent. Again, this year we will be paying .7 per cent on the principal and we expect to complete two issues, and both of these issues will total $525 million, with the commission being on that, the .7 per cent. That is why you see the increase in that.

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. Who does the Province normally deal with; or a variety?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A variety.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under General Expenses, 1.5.02, it says, "Appropriations provide for the printing, legal, paying agency and various other fees associated with the issuance, servicing and redemption of the Province's debt."

Rather than ask a whole series of separate questions, I think I will just ask the minister if, when she is on her feet, she could elaborate on each of these, 03, 04, 05 and 06. I know budgeted last year and actual paid was the same, so I guess the budget and the revised came out the same. This year we can see the budget again is projecting much the same, just a little higher on Professional Services. Could the minister elaborate on the nature of these in this Budget?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I just have apologize. I am not quite sure of the numbers to which you are referring but it is 1.5.02., and you wanted me to run through 03. and 04.?

MR. SULLIVAN: That is correct.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think the important point here to identify is that this section of the Consolidated Fund is statutory so we are obliged to pay out these amounts, as opposed to a non-statutory amount.

MR. SULLIVAN: To whom, for example?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Transportation and Communications, which is 03., relates to visiting, for example, when I go to visit Standard and Poors or Moody's about our ratings and to make presentations to those groups.

Supplies, which is a $6,000 allocation here, refers to subscriptions to the rating agency journals, which obviously we need. Also, printing, legal and registration fees, and also routine office supplies and subscriptions, as I have pointed out. Again, this is an statutory amount. I asked the same question myself, why that amount would be the same, but it is statutory and we are bound from a very long time ago, when the act was put in place, to make these; as is the next allocation of the Debt Management Expenses in another statutory expense associated with Professional Services. Did you come to that or do want me speak to it?

MR. SULLIVAN: That is your total you are doing there, right?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I am doing the total. I am doing 1.5.02.05., Professional Services.

MR. SULLIVAN: When you said Debt Management, the next line, that is the total for the previous sections, right?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. SULLIVAN: The Professional Services fee of $390,900, what would be the breakdown, paid to whom? Who would be the major ones, for example, the top two or three?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: What this includes is paying for the agency and the banking commissions, and the expenses of the maturing bonds. We called, as I pointed out earlier, some bonds and coupons. Also our rating agency fees, our Treasury and risk management opportunities and expenses relating to the transfer agencies.

This year in 2002-2003 we have Swiss Franc Bond Issue which matures and we have to pay the agency commission here. That is why it is a bit higher, because obviously the commission on the Swiss Franc Bond would be higher. We did not have one that came to maturity in 2001-2002, but because of it being due this year there is a commission that is going to be required to be paid because it comes due. That explains for the increase from $336,500 to $390,900.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

When that one become due, Swiss S-8 Series, and there is an S-7 Series due next year, basically is it the government's intention then not to - a goal to avoid international market? I know we have moved our percentage of foreign debt from about 50 per cent down to less than 30 per cent now, I think. It is gone down considerably, which gives a little bit of stability certainly in terms of exchange. Is it our intent to avoid borrowing, for instance, Swiss Francs? I will use that one now because that is the one that is coming due. We have been going to, I guess, the Canadian market and less so to the U.S. market. Is that the intent now, or is the government open to looking at the market, because internationally you might get a lot lower rate percentage wise but a lot of times the currency devaluation has really hit us hard. What is the government's outlook on these? Are they sort of turning their back on it internationally? Are they still keeping it open as an option, depending on what the rates are? Because we cannot predict, really, in ten years or twenty years time the volatility and so on, and where the Canadian dollar is going to sit on the world scheme.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Right now, we have 68.6 per cent of our direct debt payable in Canadian dollars. The answer to your question is that obviously you would look at the markets; you would look where you would get the best rate. If we were getting a better rate in dealing with the Swiss Franc than we are getting in a Canadian market or in a U.S. market, we would be hard-pressed not to go and avail of that, because our objective is to get the best rate of return so that we are able to service our debt with as little as possible and to put that money elsewhere. So, yes, the answer is we keep our options open but we have been clearly going in a direction with 68.6 per cent of our borrowings out of the Canadian markets as opposed to the U.S. and foreign markets. Obviously, that is the direction we are going in, and the reason is not because we are committed to the Canadian markets inasmuch as we are getting a better rate there and it just makes good financial sense to do that.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sometimes, too, if the rates - and I am sure if experts within the department and so on make decisions on that, if there is not a huge amount to choose it is probably a lot better going out to a more stable situation of going to our own markets rather than Swiss. I know the Swiss one on this one was, I think, only 3.75 per cent at the time of the S-8 Series. The S-7 Series now, a year later, in 1991 it was 7 per cent. We can see the one now due was a five-year, 1997 term, so we can see recently, I guess, there are certainly more competitive rates out there but there is no guarantee. If the rates are down, sometimes it is advantageous, too, to look at the term in a more favourable sense. If you can get a good term on a foreign, it might, in the long haul, be much cheaper for our Province, although I am a believer in having as little risk as possible out there. The less risk there, the more we are into our own markets. We have the less risk out on the market. At least we know where we are going from year to year.

The next one I will touch on is 2.1.01., and that is Contributions to Pension Fund. It says: Appropriations provide for government matching pension contributions and other payments under those pension plans which form part of the Pensions Funding Act.

That is basically government's contribution to that particular plan; a share of contributions. I guess that is pretty straightforward, isn't it? If there is anything other than that, I would like to hear it. If not, I will just move on. That basically, I think, seems to be pretty straightforward.

The next one, 2.1.02., Ex-Gratia and Other Payments-Non-Statutory. It says: Appropriations provide for special retirement and other payments as approved by Treasury Board. As required, funding will be transferred to departments during the year.

There is $8 million there. I am assuming that we are looking at NCERP, Northern Cod Early Retirement Program, I would think would fit in this category. Would that be correct? This is in a separate area?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. Any older workers' programs or any of these? Could the minister just tell me which ones happen to come under this specific heading here which amounted to around $8 million? It is going down, I guess that is because the programs have been on the go for some time, and as people reach retirement age of sixty-five they are starting to drop off there and our commitment is getting lessened. I assume that is the reason for the decrease this year.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The attrition rate, I think, it is clear that some of our employees are passing on, they are older, because of some of the programs that are covered under this Ex-Gratia payment. The pensions that we are talking about, there is an ex-gratia payment of $561,000 and really, this was a plan that was put in place, basically, to cover anybody who literally fell between the cracks of all the other pension plans over the years. Again, that number has been decreasing for the same reason through attrition.

There is the Hartt Pension Plan and I think everybody -

MR. SULLIVAN: Pardon, which one?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The Hartt Pension Plan, which is a pension plan specifically for the Waterford Hospital; and NAPE members in fact, if I am not mistaken. This was done a number of years ago in the 1980s as part of a strike settlement. Again, you can see that -

MR. SULLIVAN: What is the amount paid under that one?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: $1.3 million.

There is a widow's pension as well, which again is declining in amount, $245,300. There is a workers' compensation commission and this was a pension plan that was originally put in place before the new regulations were put there. I think there is only one person, in fact, left receiving that pension plan. There is an amount of, I think, $26,000 associated with this amount. There is also a redundancy pension which is under this category, and that amounts for $1.8 million. Again, that is down from last year.

MR. SULLIVAN: Would that be included for payments for somebody to go out early to make up the difference during those early years?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is part of it. I think it has been there quite awhile. It has not been accessed for quite awhile.

MR. SULLIVAN: If they went, for example, three years earlier, that amount would be appropriated for those years until they kicked in at the regular?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Out of that fund, yes, that is my understanding.

MR. SULLIVAN: More like bridging the gap for that period.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is a bridging, yes, and you can see again that it is declining because our pension plans are more specific now in terms of being able to collect, and your age and years.

The last category under it is: Severance Pay Equity and Other. That amounts for $4.1 million, and that adds up to your total of $8.1 million. Again, overall, the total as well as many of the subcategories have declined. Mostly for attrition reasons.

MR. SULLIVAN: So, the severance of $4.1 million would apply to severance for whom?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pay equity and others. From restructuring government agencies mostly. It is a catchall area.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Is that last amount you referenced under the $4.1 million category, is that amount less this year than last year? Is that going down also?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, that is the same amount that has been budgeted last year.

MR. SULLIVAN: The next item, Mr. Chairman, Railway Pensions; I think that is pretty self-explanatory there. That has been dropping off too, as people reach retirement age. So I will not ask a question on that one.

Special and Other Acts: Appropriations provide for pension and other payments under all statutory arrangements which do not form part of the Pensions Funding Act.

Could the minister just relate which ones they are, for example, and any amounts that could be appropriated to each?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The pension payments are for the following groups: Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation employees; Gander Airport employees; Memorial University transferred employees, and public officers; and all of these plans were all closed out prior to 1967. So, this is again, an amount that has been in this budget for a long time. All of these apply to the plans that were closed out prior to 1967. Again, you can see there are declining amounts; less this year than last year for that reason.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The next questions are on the final page of Consolidated Fund Services: Government of Canada Pensions. Appropriations provide for payments to cover the Province's pension liability associated with former employees of the Province who transferred to the Federal Government in 1949.

Now that is strictly, that item only - and there is nothing else under that and as we can see, that amount has been declining significantly. How many would be left now - if the minister could give me a figure. How many would still be left under this particular one?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, to the best of my knowledge, it is $20,000. I would think it is a handful at most, maybe even one or two. I am not quite sure. I think these are, if I am not mistaken, post office workers who are availing of this portion of this now. I am not exactly sure how many, but with a pension of $20,000 -

MR. SULLIVAN: Not very many. Well in 1949 terms, probably a handful.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Not very many, it might be handful.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That is basically my direct questions under the Consolidated Fund Services at this time. I am not sure if any of my colleagues want to speak under this particular one. I think we could probably, Mr. Chairman, move along under this one here unless some speakers from the other side of the House, or the third and partial party in the House here might want to have some comments.

CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 2.1.05 inclusive, carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.1.05 carried.

On motion, Consolidated Fund Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: We are calling Executive Council which is -

MR. SULLIVAN: You told me the Legislature.

MR. LUSH: I told you what?

MR. SULLIVAN: Consolidated Funds, Legislature, Executive Council; in that order.

MR. LUSH: No, it is Executive Council. Do you want to do the -

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) we do not care, but I mean, that is what I told the guys.

MR. LUSH: You did? We meant it in the other order, but it is okay. We will do it. We said legislation?

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. LUSH: Okay. Alright, we can go to the Legislative expenditures. They are beginning on page 56, I believe.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, 56; 57 anyhow.

MR. LUSH: Okay.

CHAIR: Head 1.1.01.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words with respect to the Legislature and the Estimates under the Budget this year for the Legislature. Of course, there are a number of subheadings under the Estimates for the Legislature. I want to say a few words, I say to the Government House Leader, first, and then probably have a few specific questions as time goes on.

Under the Legislature there is the Office of the Auditor General itself. We have had many instances over the past number of years, Mr. Chairman, where the Auditor General has brought this Administration to task. Basically, one of my pet peeves, of course, is the circumventing and not following the Public Tender Act. That is one office that falls under the Legislature.

Also, of course, the newly appointed Office of the Citizens' Representative, which we have been calling for, for years and years. The Ombudsman, I suppose, he could be referred to as. I remember back in the early 1990s when the former Premier, Clyde Wells, cut out the Ombudsman. I think it has been a wise move that this Administration listened to our calls for the past number of years for the Citizens' Representative. Of course, the estimates for that position and that office are here within our Estimates under the Legislature.

The Office of the Chief Electoral Officer and its staff are covered under the Legislature. I expect - I am not sure if the Minister of Finance or the Government House Leader will be answering questions. The Government House Leader. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Also, the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate falls under this heading, under the Estimates. These Estimates, of course, Mr. Chairman, give us what was budgeted last year, the revised budget, what was spent and the estimate for the upcoming year.

I was in Estimates Committee meetings this morning with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs was there, him and his staff. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that he did a good job in answering the questions. Some of the answers I probably didn't agree with, but at least we got some answers, more so than we normally get from the Members in the House of Assembly or the ministers in the House of Assembly when we ask them questions, and particularly, of course, the Premier who very seldom answers questions, who is very good at skating around issues.

The Legislature itself, Madam Chair, covers the heading, Administrative Support, House Operations, Standing and Select Committees, Hansard and the Legislative Library. Of course, all of these sections are very important to the efficient running of the Legislature, the House of Assembly as we refer to it in Newfoundland and Labrador. I do have some questions - and I will get to those in a little while - to the Government House Leader. I am sure he will be able to answer them.

Madam Chair, we have forty-eight districts in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and there has been some question over the years as to how many seats should be there, to represent the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The former, former, former Premier, Clyde Wells, had a commission put in place some ten years ago, and I think the present Premier was talking about putting a commission in place to have a look at the number of seats in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I probably did not know myself, before I got into politics, what an MHA does. We are all different. We all have different seats. We have rural seats, we some urban/rural seat combinations, and we have urban seats. Every district is different. I can account for the Member for Baie Verte and the Member for Bonavista South and the calls that they get on all-ranging issues. I have many, many issues in my district. It seems to me that sometimes the further from the urban districts you go, from the urban centers, to rural Newfoundland, you get more and more calls. I can apply that in my very own district. Some of the stuff that we do for the people out there, they probably don't know, and sometimes we are questioned. We all get tarred with the same brush, I suppose, that we are paying the politicians the big dollars and they do nothing. That is not quite accurate, I can say. Every politician is different. Some apply themselves more than others. It is like in any profession; you have good and bad. Like any profession, you have good and bad. You have good and bad lawyers, you have good and bad doctors, you have good and bad teachers, you have good and bad police officers, I suppose, and what have you.

On the whole, most people in this House of Assembly, I will say right here now, and I don't mind saying it, are - what would be the right word? - dedicated to their districts and they do their best. I think most MHAs do their best.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I think the people on the other side are agreeing with me. Of course, I don't see why they wouldn't on that issue. They do their best. We get many, many calls. Some of the stuff that we do - I do a number of UI appeals.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: EI now, but we used to call them UI then. EI appeals, Canada Pension appeals, workers' compensation appeals, social services appeals, land issues, all these various issues that we deal with.

Personally, some politicians and people think that these big issues that you get, you might get a new school in your district or get some road work done, but I think, in my personal view, the most satisfaction I get is when I do something for an individual. If I do an EI appeal and win it for someone and we find out a short time after, or we do a Canada Pension appeal. These things directly impact upon people's lives, and the people out there appreciate that.

All of us, I am sure we all do it, on this side and on that side of the House, do these things for the individuals in our district. I think they appreciate it and we all get personal satisfaction out of that.

As I said, there are some forty-eight seats in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The seat of the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, down on the South Coast, geographically, I would say, is a nightmare. The Member for Baie Verte, his district, thirty-six communities, I think.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-three.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thirty-three communities in his district. Bonavista South and others across the Province, just to visit those communities alone can take days, and we hear stories about them. In my district alone, I have five towns and a part of the City of St. John's. Volunteer Fire Departments, different organizations, we all attend those functions all the time.

I just wanted to say that up front, so some people would understand the workings of the House of Assembly and what we do for our money. Plus the fact that the work of the House of Assembly itself - there are some people, I am sure, out there and they look at the House of Assembly. Question Period can be very robust, I suppose. It can be very loud and we can all get a bit aggressive on this side of the House and that side of the House when we are answering questions or asking questions; but the workings of the House of Assembly, the stuff like the critic for Finance was up the past two days, the day before yesterday and the day before that, responding to the Budget, two hours or two-and-a-half hours responding to the Budget, is very tedious work. No doubt about that, it is very tedious, but he is doing a good job. He takes his job very seriously, to ask the questions, to respond and to point out what needs to be pointed out to government where we feel, on this side of the House, they are not doing properly.

One of the things, of course, that we said the past number of years, when I was the Finance critic, of course, one of my main issues was the abuse of the special warrants and trying to manipulate special warrants to affect the bottom line of the Budget to show we had a deficit or a balanced Budget, whatever the case maybe. It has been abused. The Auditor General has said that, no question about that, and that has been confirmed. We hope that this Administration will finally learn that it is not the thing to be doing.

We talked about the deficit. The Auditor General has confirmed, over the past three years, we have it there, each year - one year it was $22 million that the government was saying in the Budget that it was a deficit of $22 million. In actual fact it was over $200 million. The next year they said it was $33 million. We said the deficit was over $300 million and, of course, it was confirmed by the Auditor General and confirmed by the government's own auditors in the fall of the year. This year, the Minister of Finance has put a Budget forward and said that the deficit this year is going to be some $93 million. In reality it is going to be over $400 million. The Auditor General will - I do not know if there is a new Auditor General appointed yet - the Auditor General will confirm that. I am sure it will be over $400 million, and the government's own auditors will confirm that, in the fall of the year I would say to you, Madam Chair.

Now, with respect to certain specifics in the subheads, under 1.1.01 Administrative Support, I say to the Government House Leader, on page 57, we have 05. Professional Services. You had $100,000 budgeted, $45,000 spent last year, and it is back up to $160,000 this year. Does the Government House Leader want to comment on that, why the difference?

MR. LUSH: That is 05. Professional Services.

Madam Chair, the $100,000 that was budgeted in 2001-2002 and only $45,000 spent and then this year with a budget of $160,000, that was for furnishing for the Library, the Legislative Library, and it was not done. It was scheduled to be done in 2001-2002 but it was not done, so the savings were taken from there and put into 2002 so we now have an expenditure of $160,000. It is for shelving, furniture, in the Legislative Library.

MADAM CHAIR (Ms Hodder): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

In the next subhead 06. Purchased Services, you had $400,000 budgeted, you spent $400,000, and this year you have $300,000 budgeted. Would you want to address that $100,000 difference?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Madam Chair, that is a result of decreases in that area to accommodate the government's decreases for departments, so there is a decrease in that particular department in Purchased Services to try and meet the Budget requirements.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Government House Leader, would he be able to respond at this point in time? It is only this past year, I think it was in January, that we started televising the House.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: February?

AN HON. MEMBER: Last fall.

MR. J. BYRNE: Last fall.

Could the minister now tell us, at this point in time, the actual cost of the renovations to be able to televise the House, the cost of the cameras, the total cost, and also the cost of - actually, the satellite cost, I suppose. Is there a cost there for satellite hookups? And, are there any plans to - I do not know if people out there want to know this or see this. When we sit late in the evenings, of course, sometimes it is televised and sometimes it is not. I think you have to book the satellite time, to look at when the House closes, say, 5:00 p.m. or 5:30 p.m., whatever the case may be. I have heard this from some people, believe it or not: Why is it that we do not replay it in the evenings, or whatever the case may be? Can you address the cost involved so far, the satellite time, and that issue?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: I will get to the simple question first, on the cost. The total cost for getting ready for televising, getting the furniture, the entire equipment, comes to about $2 million. That is the figure that we have been given for the cost of providing television feed.

The other question with respect to replay, replaying what you are now seeing playing in the evenings to a larger audience, to the people who work and cannot view this very important and interesting activity, we would like to do it in the evening, but I can only say to the hon. member that it is not being contemplated yet. We have not made any provision in the Budget for it, but maybe with requests coming from him and other people we will have to look at it to see what we will do in the future. The short answer is, we haven't made any decision at the moment. We have not contemplated doing it.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Government House Leader made a statement that it is very important and interesting, the stuff that is happening in the House of Assembly. I don't know about the interesting part but it is very important, I agree.

He didn't answer the question with respect to - I am not sure if I was clear on it - the satellite cost budgeted this year to cover the cost of the House of Assembly to be on TV . Is it a per hour cost, a contract, or whatever the case may be?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: If the hon. member is asking what it costs to televise the House, it costs $300 an hour. That is via the satellite, yes. I am assuming that people understand that is how we are televised. Sending the signal to satellite and sending it right throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador costs us $300 an hour.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Three hundred dollar per hour for satellite time is what you are saying, I say to the Government House Leader. Some people out there may question that figure. If we are worth that much, I do not know. That remains to be seen.

With respect to the Standing and Select Committees, under section 1.1.03, I say to the Government House Leader.

PREMIER GRIMES: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Premier just made a statement. He don't know if it is worth $300 an hour with me up, but I can guarantee him this, when he is answering a question we are not getting our money's worth because he has not answered a question in this sitting, I can guarantee you.

Madam Chair, under 1.1.03.06, Purchased Services. I say to the Government House Leader, $1,500 was budgeted, no revision, and you have $95,000 budgeted this year. Could you explain that?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: These are for conferences, I believe. The hon. member would be familiar with the fact that the House sponsors certain conferences, Canadian conferences, and it is the Province's turn this year to sponsor a couple of conferences. I do not know exactly what they are - it could be PAC - but a couple of conferences that it is our turn to host. So that is what that exact money is for.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

One of these conferences, I say to the Government House Leader, is the Public Accounts Committee this year. It is being hosted by the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Fisheries, he can get up and answer a few questions, I am sure, in due course if he feels like it. He seems to have all the answers.

AN HON. MEMBER: All the wrong answers.

MR. J. BYRNE: All the wrong answers, I might add.

Under the House of Assembly, 1.1.04. Hansard, Salaries, $294,700 budgeted; spent $244,900; and you are back up to $295,800 this year. Would you like to address that and explain what went on there? Not that I am questioning that it should not be spent, I say to the Government House Leader, because they perform a very important duty.

The Government House Leader is now consulting. I would like to say, while I am on my feet, that Hansard does some very important work, and we appreciate it. They transcribe - for the people who do not understand - all the wording that goes on in the House of Assembly, and they do a very good job. Sometimes I have to wonder how they manage it, because some of the speeches I hear sometimes - we have a tendency in Newfoundland and Labrador, at least I do sometimes, to speak very rapidly. I am taking my time here today, as far as I know, but I really have to say that the people in Hansard do a very good job. We appreciate it in here and we hope they continue the good work. We would just like to know what is going on with the staff there, that's all.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The figure that the hon. member is questioning is the salary for 2002. The revised figure is somewhat $50,000 less than what the budgeted figure was. This year we have basically the same figure 2002-2003. That discrepancy comes from the fact that when the officials of the House of Assembly, determining what the Budget will be, naturally take a certain figure as to what it will cost to get the work done. Because the House is open a certain number of days -

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) opened the House enough, that's why it is down.

MR. LUSH: That is exactly what happened, we had some money to spare. We were not open the number of days that the figures were projected for. The House was not open those many days. That is why we are down to the - it was projected that we will be open again - I do not know what figure they used, they probably used a figure that the House will be open 100 days. When we are below that, then that figure is going to be reduced.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I read the figures, and I just heard the critic for Finance saying that the number of days that the House of Assembly used to be open was somewhere around ninety-five days per year when former Premier Clyde Wells was here. It was cut down to sixty-something days with former Premier Tobin. I would not doubt, Madam Chair, that it is going to be cut even less if this Administration has anything to do with it, from what I can gather.

Under Legislative Library, I say to the Government House Leader, section 1.1.05.01. Salaries. Again, $194,000 budgeted; $177,000 spent; $207,000 budgeted this year, which is $30,000 more than was actually spent last year. Are there more staff coming on, I say to the Government House Leader?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: I say to the hon. member, again, this figure has to do with hiring extra staff. The person was not hired until midway through the year; hence, there was money saved on the revised budget but then the extra money is to take care of the salary for the full year. I think the hon. member would agree that we certainly need these people in the library, people again, who render to us a tremendous service. People who are there to help MHAs and other people who work in the service of government. I do not know whether all hon. members go to the library, it is not required. Some people probably do not use it, but those who have gone in the last little while must have recognized tremendous changes; and overall, a better place for members to study. I hope that we make it better still, more comfortable, so that we can do our research that is so necessary. That is the reason, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would agree with the Government House Leader with respect to the Legislative Library and the work they do. The staff do a very good job up there. I have been there on a number of occasions. Actually, they have the history and volumes and volumes of information there which we can utilize at any given time, and if you request anything from them they are very efficient in getting that information to us, I say to you, Madam Chair.

With respect to the Auditor General's Office; I want to say a few words with respect to the Auditor General's Office. I was Chair of the PAC for two or three years until the Member for Bay of Islands got a bit upset with me last year or the year before last and refused to meet with me, I say to you, Madam Chair. We had a very good relationship with the Auditor General, and rightly so. The Auditor General's Office did some very good work, very important work, and pointed out a lot of concerns that the Auditor General's Office had at the time. Ms Marshall, I thought, was a very, very professional person; still is. I believe that her position is finished now as the Auditor General. I am just curious, I will ask a question to the Government House Leader: Has that position been filled yet, the Auditor General's position for the next five or ten years' contract?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The answer to the question raised by the hon. member is that the position is not filled yet, but it should be filled in the near future. I hate to say a time, but I think we are talking about, probably in the next month that the position will be filled.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

I would also like to remind the member that his time is now up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave?

MADAM CHAIR: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, it is back and forth (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Just on a point of clarification with respect to this time. I was under the impression that we were ten minutes, ten minutes type of think back and forth -

MADAM CHAIR: That is right.

MR. J. BYRNE: - and once I sit down, if I used five or six minutes, and a member on the other side gets up and sits down - if he only takes one or two minutes - and I get up, my ten minutes start again. Is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: Absolutely.

MR. J. BYRNE: So it really back and forth, up and down, unless somebody on that side gets up. Some people might think that is very unfortunate but that is life, I would say.

I was going to say with respect to the Auditor General's Office and the new appointment, would there be any emphasis in filling that position internally or would it go externally and it would be advertised?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: It was done, Madam Chair, by a public competition. I suppose people from both in and outside were permitted to apply. I guess to answer the question, it wasn't solely for people on the inside. It was a public competition for people from the inside, naturally were entitled to apply, as were people from outside.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Madam Chair, I want to move on now to the Office of The Chief Electoral Officer, 3.1.01. I have a few questions on that.

MR. SULLIVAN: He will soon be busy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, he will soon be busy, I expect, I say to the Government House Leader.

Salaries again, $342,900 budgeted, $374,400 spent, and now $396,000. Has new staff been hired there in that department? Why would that be there? I will continue on.

Under Transportation and Communications - because I see the minister is doing some research on that question. Under Transportation and Communications; $49,500 budgeted, $22,000 spent last year, and $44,500 budgeted for this year. Can you address those two concerns?

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: I will go to the second part first, Madam Chair. That is the, I think, Transportation and Communications for $22,000 up to the $44,500. I think at this particular time the Chief Electoral Officer is doing some extra work for obvious reasons. I think that extra money, that extra $22,500, the $22,000 to the $44,500 - that is the figure - that is the kind of work he would normally be doing now in preparation for an election, that shouldn't be any more than two years down the road, I suppose.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

With respect to an election two years down the road, I expect the Government House Leader has had some wishful thinking there. I expect it will be a lot sooner than that, and rightfully so, I say, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: His first question as well, looking at Salaries, 01: The answer is the same really, that in preparation for the general election the Chief Electoral Officer has hired some extra people to have in readiness for that event. Nothing unusual. At about this time that happens.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question that is not in the Estimates as such, and that is my concern with the interpretation that the Chief Electoral Officer has on a certain issue. That is to do with the voters list. In the act it says that the voters list is to be used for political purposes, I suppose, for elections and what have you. I think the intent of that was, if I had a copy of the voters list as such that I couldn't give it out for general purposes for anybody to use, type of thing.

Now, I requested a copy of the voters list some time ago, and the response was that he couldn't give it to me, because it had to be used for political purposes, or for an election, whatever the case may be. But if any member in this House of Assembly requests the voters list I would think it would be to bring it up-to-date and bring it up-to-scratch, have an up-to-date list with the names and what have you. It probably would be even better than what the Chief Electoral Officer has himself.

So, I am wondering: Is there anything we can do about that in the very near future? Because a year or two years down the road, as you say before an election comes - which I doubt - would be a long time to wait for it.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: I say to the hon. member, that sometimes people are very protective of their lists. I don't know why. I will just used an analogy: Even within the Liberal Party where they have a voters list, it is difficult, as hon. members on this side would know, just to go and get a list. When you do, you have to pay for it, and there are people not to pleased about that. I know there is a problem with it. I can only say to the hon. member, I will undertake to look into it and see just what the problem is and why, particularly as this is the business we are in, as the hon. member says, and we would like to have the list.

I am just trying to think - I don't think I have ever requested one. I think when I wanted it, as hon. members do from time to time, I have always used the previous one, the one from the prior election. That is the one I have always used. There is no reason why, it seems to me, that those of us who are in the business, who are professional people, shouldn't be able to get the latest list there is. I will undertake to check it out and to see just what the reasons are, why it is not accessible, and report back to the hon. member.

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

With respect to that, I think either one of two things can happen, either the legislation needs to be changed, which I don't think it has to, personally, the interpretation of the legislation could be changed, reviewed, or whatever the case may be, or the three parties, the government, the Opposition and the NDP, could agree to the interpretation. When I read it, I really thought that it was being interpreted in the strictest sense of the words, I would say to the Government House Leader.

We have left, under the Legislature, basically, from my perspective, the Office of the Citizens' Representative and the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate. I do not think I need to get into that, but there are others on this side of the House who may be interested in asking a few questions on that.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Under Office of the Child and Youth Advocate, 5.1.01.01, Salaries: How many people are anticipated to be on the staff of the Children's Advocate Office?

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: If the hon. member will proceed to another question - I am sure she has others - we will attempt to get that. I think we are talking about four to six people in that area, but we will try and get the number for her and she can proceed to other questions.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes. I am pleased to see that the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate soon will be open. I know we have been asking for the appointment of a Child and Youth Advocate at least since I have been here, and I know that my hon. colleagues have been asking for that since before I got here.

That was passed in the fall of 2001, the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate. I noticed that the position was advertised for recently. I am wondering when we can expect the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate to be up and running? When will that person be appointed?

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: I think the process is being fine-tuned, being refined now. Again, I think we can look forward to that certainly, I am thinking, within the next six to eight weeks; that person will be hired and ready to go. That is my thinking on it.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I stand today to say a few words and ask a few questions. First, I am going to make some comments and I will ask a few questions to the Government House Leader after.

Madam Speaker, I will use my time today to talk about the tools that a Member of the House of Assembly needs in order to carry out his duties to represent his constituents.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely, I say to the Finance Minister. The Finance Minister knows full well what I am going to speak about, because I have written two letters already to the IEC, and they were two letters that were brought forward. I feel that they were letters not only expressing my need to have tools to represent my constituents, but other members in this Legislature as well. While some people on the IEC decided that maybe it was an expense that we could not afford to incur at this particular time, Madam Chair, I tend to differ. What I am talking about is cellular telephones. I feel today that a cellular telephone, Madam Chair, is just as important as a hard line telephone, it is just as important as a computer and it is just as important as a mode of transportation, in order to represent your constituents in this Province today.

When I leave this House of Assembly and go to my district, and if I return to the House of Assembly again that same day, the next day or whenever, it takes me six hours; three hours to go and three hours to come back to my office here at Confederation Building. That is not a long time compared to the Member for The Straits & White Bay North, the Member for Baie Verte, the Member for St. Barbe, Madam Chair, and the Members for Labrador on the other side.

I put forward two requests and I pointed out the fact that - and I am going to talk about me - this member doesn't cost the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador or the taxpayers of this Province one penny after 6:00 o'clock at night or on holidays or on weekends. I would imagine other members here as well have taken advantage of the telephone-

AN HON. MEMBER: Package.

MR. FITZGERALD: - package that is being provided - I say thank you to the member - have taken advantage of the telephone package where you pay, I do not know what it is, but it is less than $30 a month, and it is free calling. Every call that I make that is a long distance call from my home out in my constituency does not cost the taxpayers of this Province one penny, Madam Chair.

When I leave here to go to my district, I am six hours before I get back again. That is straight driving, that is not stopping here or there to go in somewhere to get a bite to eat or whatever, stop for gas.

I have put forward two requests to have cellular telephone services provided to the members of this House of Assembly to come out of the House of Assembly budget, and both times it has been refused. My understanding is, as well, that there was a survey done that a member of the Legislature, staff of the Legislature, the Finance Committee, Madam Chair, was asked to do a survey. I do not know what the gentleman's title is, the proper title, but Mr. Bill Murray was asked to do a survey and come back to IEC, on what other jurisdictions do as it relates to providing cell phone services to members of the Legislature. I understand that there were five other jurisdictions that were surveyed and I understand, Mr. Government House Leader, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the five jurisdictions that were surveyed all provided the cost of cellular telephone services to legislators of that particular assembly.

The request was, from the very beginning, not to provide members- I do not think you should have to provide members here with cell phones, to go out and buy the actual hardware, if you would. Everybody here has a cell phone, I am certain of that. I do not think that we should have to get into repairs to cellular telephones. I firmly believe that in order for me to represent the District of Bonavista South and my 9,277 electors, I do not think for one moment that what I get as a constituency allowance, that I should have to pay for contact by using a telephone in order to attend to needs and attend to people who sent me here and elected me to represent them in the House of Assembly. I am firm believer in that. I plead to the Government House Leader and to the Speaker as well to have another look at that request.

The last letter, and I say this not to separate members of the Legislature, not to separate rural members from urban members, but if the cost of providing cellular telephone services are too expensive, if it is too expensive for the Legislature to absorb, maybe we should look at the rural members of this Legislature and look at the cost of providing cellular telephone services to the people who are provided 1-800 numbers. There is a vast difference, and I am sure that the debate can be long about the time that it takes me to leave the office and go to my constituency home and to go to my district compared to our urban members, somebody living in Virginia Waters, somebody living in Mount Pearl, somebody living within the city.

MR. NOEL: Do you use a cell phone while you are driving?

MR. FITZGERALD: The ministers asks if I use a cellular telephone while I am driving. He is a witness to the way I use cellular telephones. He is a witness to it. In fact, he was visiting my district one day and he stopped because he recognized my car down in King's Cove, pulled off on the side of road there, using a cellular telephone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Chair, if I used the cellular telephone service and he saw me parked, I was not driving. He should know different from that. It bothers me that here is a fellow who is talking about renewing auto insurance, and he does not know if somebody is parked or driving.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: On a point of order, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. NOEL: I want to tell the hon. member that I realize he was using the cell phone while he was parked when I saw him, but my question is: Does he use the cell phone while he is driving?

MADAM CHAIR: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Chair, you can use the cellular telephone service while you are driving if you have a hands-free operation, I say to the member. I understand that is allowed.

Madam Chair, I do not want the minister to make light of this, because I am serious. I am very serious. Whether you use the cellular telephone service while you are driving, or whether you use it when you are parked, is not the topic that I am raising here today. I am raising the issue of providing members of this House with the tools to do their job. I do not think I am asking for too much. If it is a cost that cannot be incurred - because I do not know how many members here do not have cellular telephone service provided, when you look at - ministers already have it. Ministers of the Crown, each member, each Liberal Cabinet minister has a cellular telephone. Guess who pays for the service?

AN HON. MEMBER: The taxpayers.

MR. FITZGERALD: The taxpayers.

The Government House Leader has a cellular telephone. Guess who pays for the service? The Speaker has a cellular telephone. Guess who pays for the service?

AN HON. MEMBER: The taxpayers.

MR. FITZGERALD: The taxpayers.

Guess who made the decision that Members of the House of Assembly could not have them?

Madam Chair, all I am asking for, and I do not want to change it into a political thing or to place blame, I am asking the IEC to reconsider providing the cost of providing cellular telephones to members of this Legislature so they can provide that particular service to their constituents.

I have a couple of questions, and the first thing I want to do is ask the Government House Leader if he would provide us with some information on the operation of the Premier's Office? Are we into Executive Council?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, we are into the Legislature. I am sorry, I thought that we were moving around.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I understand that there are other people here who want to talk about the Legislature before we move into Executive Council and we will leave it there for the present time.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, we are not. There are other people here who want to ask questions about the Legislature.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, we are not ready.

Madam Chair, that is my biggest concern. I have raised the issue here before. We talk about reducing the numbers of seats in the House of Assembly. That is something that the Premier has been putting forward. My understanding is, that whole process is supposed to happen every ten years anyway, so that is nothing new. That process will be allowed to unfold. Hopefully, the decisions will be made as they should be made, and we will not see the gerrymandering from the present Government House Leader like we saw from the former House Leader nine short years ago when we had a similar situation when we went out and asked the people to step up and step forward in order to put forward their views and opinions as to the way they would like to see this Legislature unfold, and the numbers that they would have here, and the number of seats that would be represented here in this House.

The minister knows full well what I am talking about, when the former Minister of Justice went out and interfered with Judge Mahoney's panel who were travelling around this Province. He went out to Clarenville, I say to the minister - I know it very well, and he knows it very well - and insisted on having a different report brought back than Judge Mahoney at the time was willing to submit. In fact, the judge resigned. The judge would not take part in it. Then they had to go judge shopping to get another judge to put forward in order to bring back a report that government wanted brought back here. In fact, I think the first report that Judge Mahoney and his panel submitted to this House was the proper report. I think at that particular time, in the report that was brought back, you could see the number in this Legislature reduced to forty seats.

AN HON. MEMBER: A minimum of forty seats.

MR. FITZGERALD: A minimum of forty seats was brought back, the first report. There were two reports.

AN HON. MEMBER: Obviously, Roger, anyone representing the bay never done much about that, did they, boy?

MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely, I say to members opposite. If people think that there is no difference, that we should be all judged and people's districts should be only deemed on the number of people that live there, then that is certainly not the way to go and put the reconfiguration of this Legislature in place, plus or minus 10 per cent.

Madam Chair, let's compare my District of Bonavista South. The last census that was taken prior to the last election, and I would think that there is a vast difference now, but the District of Bonavista South was the largest district population-wise, voter-wise in this Legislature; 9,277 electors. The largest district, thirty-six communities. Let's look at St. John's North to show the difference, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Let's look at St. John's North. St. John's North comprised of a little district nestled away in the northern part of St. John's.

MR. REID: Walk around it in an afternoon.

MR. FITZGERALD: Walk around it in the afternoon. You could go home for dinner every day, go home for lunch, and you can go home for supper; drive through it on your way home within minutes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Certainly, it is wonderful. If you want to say that somebody representing that district with those numbers, that is a wonderful thing, but it is not wonderful when you look at the numbers that were put in rural areas and the communities that were left there for people to put forward and be able to support, and expect to do it with the tools that the Legislature have been provided with.

Up in St. John's North, I say to the Government House Leader, and he knows it very well: 6,800 electors in St. John's North. Six thousand and eight-hundred electors compared to 9,277 with thirty-five communities in the District of Bonavista South. I ask the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, is that fair? Is that fair representation? Is that fair representation, Premier? Is that the way that the reconfiguration of this Legislature should look like? Is that the right way to represent rural Newfoundland and Labrador? Is that the right way to represent this Province? I say not, Madam Chair. I say not. I do not know about cutting back the seats in the city. That is an argument that people will put forward and it will be an argument that people will debate from one side to the other, but we should certainly look at something greater than plus or minus 10 per cent. Urban versus rural.

I remember the member - and I am not saying anything about the member for Mount Pearl.

MR. H. HODDER: Waterford Valley.

MR. FITZGERALD: Waterford Valley or the member for Mount Pearl. I remember the former member for Mount Pearl, Neil Winsor, when they were talking reconfiguration and changing the electoral boundaries. At that particular time, and I stand to be corrected on this but I know the statement very well, I think there was something like 17,000 people living in his district. I remember the member saying to me that they can give me another 1,700 and I still would not be busy. Madam Chair, there is a vast difference in the problems, the travel, the expectations of a rural member than an urban member.

That is why I say it to you, Premier, that if you, in your wisdom - and the time is going to come around. The time is going to come when you will have to appoint somebody, according to the legislation as it exists today, in the rules and the regulations, to look at the number of seats and the reconfiguration of the districts in this Province. When the time comes I think the mandate should be clear. It should not be plus or minus 10 per cent. Urban and rural should be looked at in completely different ways. The Government House Leader represents a rural district. He knows what I am talking about. I live in his district and I know very well the commitments that he has to make. They are no different than mine. He knows very well that there is a vast difference in what rural members have to do and the expectations of rural members than what we have to do as urban members.

Madam Chair, I stood in this Legislature before and asked that if we are not willing to look and separate rural districts from urban districts then maybe we should look at providing extra staff to the members who represent rural areas. Maybe we should look at providing the rural member with some extra staff in order to carry out their duties, and in order to respond to the needs and the wishes of their constituents.

I remember standing here last year asking and begging for another telephone line. Each member of the House of Assembly were provided with two telephone lines. I did get another telephone line, I say to members opposite, with the permission of the Clerk, and I thank him for that. I did get an extra telephone line. It was certainly needed in my office.

Maybe if we are not going to look at changing the districts maybe it is time to look at providing rural members with some extra help in order to look after their districts, I say to the Premier.

Madam Chair, we go out and offer ourselves for election. People put their trust in us. We come in here and I do not think we are provided with enough tools to the job the people expect and that we need in order to do that.

I raise the issue of our offices and the space that we have. I say to the Premier - I do not know when he served in the backbenches, it was a long time ago but I am certain he visits his backbench staff here on the second floor - come up in our offices and look around, see the offices that we have. It's not bad compared to what it was. Go and look at the deputy minister's office of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Go and look at the deputy minister's office and the assistant deputy minister's office of the Minister of Finance. Go and look at the deputy minister's office and the assistant deputy minister's office of every minister here in this Legislature and do a comparison. Do a comparison and see who is being provided with the provisions of doing a days work and those who have to struggle in order to make things happen and represent their districts. I am not so sure, Premier, that is the way that it should be. That is all I am asking for. I am not asking for any special privileges. I am asking and I think I am echoing the concerns of most people in this Legislature today. I have talked to many -

MR. WALSH: (Inaudible) 1985.

MR. FITZGERALD: We are not living back in 1985, I say to the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. We are not living in 1985. When you go over to Bell Island -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I wasn't here then. I know nothing about the roof leaking. I know nothing about the roof leaking, but I say to the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, if he goes over to Bell Island and they talk about the ferry service, does he remind them of what it was like twenty years ago or thirty years ago? It is not even worth commenting on, Premier, not even worth commenting on. It has been serious up until now.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Those are just a few points that I want to bring forward. I notice that the Premier is paying attention, making some notes, and I am sure he can relate to it because he represents a rural area of this Province as well. I am not saying that the people who represent urban areas in this Province have it wonderful and great and they do not have to answer their phone. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is, there is a vast difference in the number of calls and what is expected of rural members verses urban members in this Province, when you have ten or twelve fire departments and you have fifteen or sixteen town councils, and you have two or three or four development associations, and you have - weekends for me, and I am not complaining; it is my choice to be a member.

MADAM CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Just a minute to clue up, if I could.

It is my choice. It is a job that we all obviously want to do or we would not be here, and it is a job that I think we can all do much better if we were provided with the tools to that job, and I think that we should receive and expect nothing less.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate an opportunity, Madam Chair, to add a few comments with respect to this particular discussion on the vote for the operations of the House of Assembly. I listened with some interest in terms of the commentary made by the Member for Bonavista South, as did a number of members of the Legislature.

The fact of the matter is, I think, we do all understand this. What we really vote in terms of the budget which we are discussing in the headings that provide for this group of forty-eight to perform our duties and do our jobs is really entirely up to ourselves. It is a question, I think, that would have to be answered in the affirmative. Through our Internal Economies Commission, which many people of the Province might not be aware of, which is the group that all our parties here - there is no official representation from the NDP because of the rules of recognition of party status, I guess. The Leader of the NDP might speak to that briefly afterwards as well, because I think there are opportunities, in the meantime, to at least share some views and seek some input as to whether or not they agree or disagree with the direction in which we are going.

The collective view, I would suggest here in the Legislature, is that the wherewithal that we have today in 2002 and that is budgeted for this year, is probably, I think it is fair to say, at a higher level and a higher standard than it has been. We have continued to make some improvements. There is, I think, a better capability to do the job this year than there probably was last year and the year before. Certainly, if you go back six or seven years there is an improvement. There is more staff available, even if it is not to an individual member and to a group of members anyway. There is Internet access, there is the ability to have some access in your home, additional phone lines, and those kinds of things. Some people have found ways to run offices out in their constituency by accessing some constituency allowances. There is more discretion given, a whole lot more discretion given, to members to use the money that is allocated for them to do their job, because I think we are using much more of a version of the federal Ottawa model than the Newfoundland and Labrador model that I came into some thirteen years ago that was very prescriptive and said you are allowed so many trips a year to your district that would be paid for, and after that no more money.

I think members recognize that through that dialogue, which has been a joint dialogue, we are in a position - and I do recognize and I believe that most members share the view that everybody here would probably like to have a greater capability, more staff, to deal with their constituents who, in my view, having seen it across the country as well, I think have a greater level of contact. They use us, and their level of expectations for being able to access us is greater, I think, in Newfoundland and Labrador than anywhere in the country.

I think we have members from all three parties that have been on parliamentary conventions and so on where you discuss these things with other parliamentarians in Canada, parliamentarians in the United States, parliamentarians in Europe, in the U.K. and so on, who would say, when they hear about how many calls we get in a week and how many people deal with us personally, that they are surprised by it because it is not the same kind of job that they do; but it is the nature of the beast here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We are hopefully going to approve, again, an allocation for the running of the House of Assembly, including our own capabilities to do our jobs here this year, that will see us make some strides forward.

I take the point quite seriously that it is different. It is different than a deputy minister in particular, because the deputy ministers are the permanents heads of departments who have responsibility for 300, 400, 500 and, in some cases, 800, 900 or 1,000 staff, that they are the head of it on a permanent basis no matter which minister is there.

We saw a week or ten days ago, four ministers change their responsibilities to go on to different duties. The deputy ministers are still there, because their job is different. They provide the services on behalf of the government for all the people of the Province and they have responsibility for all these staff that the ministers do not have. The ministers are responsible for policy, seeing that the budget is provided, but they are not responsible for the day-to-day direction, work and duties of those individuals who are the hired public servants and glad to be the public servants of the Province.

There is a difference and a distinction made again not only here in Newfoundland and Labrador but throughout the parliamentary democracies of North America, Europe and so on, that we relate to, and know and understand.

I appreciate the vote of confidence that the Member for Bonavista South gave to myself and the government about the fact that it is this government, it is me, it is the Liberal Administration, that will decide and set the parameters and the guidelines for the configuration of this House in 2005. That will be two years after the next election. We will be here doing it. There is no doubt about that. I appreciate the vote of confidence -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: - because it is true. It happens every ten years. It was done last in1995, and the new configuration was first, I guess, for election in 1996, the forty-eight members that are here, because prior to that there were fifty-two.

There were some parameters that are given to - I think again the normal routine is to establish a committee or commission of some sort that goes out and deals with making some recommendations at least back to the government and then into the Legislature for a vote as to first and foremost how many seats would we have. When we decided to go from fifty-two to forty-eight, just historically the last time it happened, the then Leader of the Opposition, that the Member for Bonavista South held the hand of the man that stuck the knife in her back, he was there with the Member for Kilbride when they got rid of Lynn Verge. Everybody in this Legislature remembers that. It was very skillfully done. It was almost painless, actually. It happened very quickly. It was very sudden and quick, but she did -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER GRIMES: I am just recounting factual history, absolute factual history. Actually, he was quite proud of it at the time, and so was the Member for Baie Verte who, I understand, was holding the hand of the hand that did the job. He was one of the ones contributing to the public debate.

Madam Chair, the issue is this: The Opposition at that point in time was proposing a Legislature of forty-two seats. That was in the Blue Book of the time. The Blue Book of that time said: If we were elected we would suggest that this Legislature should be forty-two instead of fifty-two.

The determination was that it be forty-eight. Now, Madam Chair, as well, I know that the Progressive Conservative District Association from Exploits District - I know these individuals personally. Some of them had voted for me in the past from time to time, had voted for George Baker in the past, from time to time. They vote for different people at different times. I guess their preference would be to be Progressive Conservatives, given all else. They came to the Progressive Conservative pep rally of last year and brought a motion that never ever got debated. Their motion was that this Legislature should be thirty seats.

There will be a debate after the next election in 2005 and one of the parameters will be: what number are we looking at? Are we comfortable with forty-eight? Do we think it should go back to fifty-two? Should it go down to forty-two? Should it be thirty, which has actually been proposed by some Progressive Conservatives? Not by me, but proposed by some Progressive Conservatives. They didn't want to talk about it, so it was deferred. We will all talk about it, as the Member for Bonavista South knows, in a couple of years time or so. We will not talk about that. That is one of the fundamentals that all of us will be challenged with. Then we will see, depending on how many we have here, again, what the appropriate approbation of funds and resources is so that the number of members that we decide in this Legislature to have represent the people of Newfoundland and Labrador must have available to them in order to fulfill their duties; because that is the issue that was raised, and it is a serious and important one.

I do think, again, that there is a greater capability today than there has been for some time, and I look forward to making continued improvements in the capability of the members to do their jobs with the agreement of all parties, I would hope; and we can vote on those kinds of things right here in the Legislature.

The other thing, as well, this time around, the interesting part, was the 10 per cent or so in terms of, instead of having every district the same size, there should be some leeway. There was a component of that in the current makeup of the Legislature, because that is how we accommodated four seats in Labrador where there are only 30,000 people altogether - not voters, but people - just over 30,000 people because the geography was seen to be so remote and the land is so huge that, regardless of the sparse population, it was felt that there should be a different criterion applied in Labrador than on the main part of the Island. There was also, I think, special consideration given for the Southwest Coast of the Province because of especially isolated communities and so on. Those were put into the mix and then the rest were sort of decided to be divided up evenly on some kind of a population split.

MADAM CHAIR: Order, please!

I remind the Premier that his time is up.

PREMIER GRIMES: I thank you, and I can finish with these comments: We will have a full debate of this in a period of time and I look forward to more participation in terms of how we fund ourselves here in the Legislature. It is an important issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I was reluctant to give leave to the Premier to speak that time and I knew I shouldn't, but I guess I learned the hard way.

When it comes to seats, Madam Chair, I do not know about the configuration in years to come. I can only say that there will be a great deal of subtraction in seats in the next election as we move forward.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Subtraction I said, not multiplication, addition or certainly division. It is going to be subtraction.

Madam Chair, I would just like to speak on the Legislature, the House of Assembly. I just want to go through the Estimates, just to look at certain aspects of it. I wouldn't, if I were the Premier, count too much in regard to seats for the next election.

The area that I just want to make note of, Madam Chair, deals with the Legislative Library. I just want to make note that originally - I look at the Government House Leader. I am not sure if you have answered it. I was a little bit concerned, initially, when I saw that last year there was estimated something like $194,100, $177,000 spent, and we have $207,700 in the upcoming year. So I assume that the staff has been maintained and perhaps some extra staff has been added.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that would be.

I see the House Leader nodding in agreement. I say to the Government House Leader, that this Legislative Library certainly adds a lot. I know myself, that not only have I used it but I have been encouraged to use it. I must say, I guess, in the House, with regard to the staff who run the Legislative Library, not only do they take care of their business but they encourage the Members in this House, certainly, to use that particular service. Using that particular service, Madam Chair, is most important because we need that type.

Now, when it comes to the library and our use of the library, I must say it is great, it is open and available to us. I say, Madam Chair, that is not necessarily true of the libraries throughout our Province. Even though we have adequate resources in the libraries throughout our Province, I must say that we do not have the hours of operation that are necessary to give the people, who use those libraries throughout this Province, access to them as they need them. So, even though I am pleased, in the job that I am in and in the building that I am in, that I have a great library, access to it just about any time of the day, I cannot say that for other areas of the Province or other people who certainly use these.

In looking at the Office of the Auditor General, certainly, once again I am pleased to see that the current level of funding, Madam Chair, has been put there to make sure that the Auditor General can proceed in carrying out his or her duties in the manner in which they should be taken care of. The Office of the Auditor General, we know, is an important, important office. I have to say, Madam Chair, in looking at the Office of the Auditor General, and the latest Auditor General's Report, it is good that the funding is there to take care of that particular office.

Referring to the Auditor General, of course, I have to again commend her - I think this is her last report - for the job that she has done, and also the way that she brought forth some of the things that are near and dear to my heart, especially with regard to the education system here in this particular Province. It was, I guess, through her efforts that not only was I, but many were alarmed to see the problems that the educators, the trustees in this Province, are having in putting together what I call a quality system of education throughout this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is important that we have the Office of the Auditor General to keep reminding us that we have to continue to strive to move forward, to be able to, I suppose, deliver to our children what is absolutely necessary for them in the way of skills and education that they need in order for them to move forward in life.

I draw attention to one instance - I mention the school boards, Madam Chair. The Auditor General was the one who brought out the fact that funding for the school boards has continued to, I guess, decline since 1996. As I said, we know that we have gone from perhaps - what? - about 450 schools in 1996 down to a little over 300 now in 2002. We know that the enrolment has gone from 110,000, I think, in the mid-1990s down to perhaps about 90,000 as we speak. Unfortunately, with regard to taking care of the school boards, not only have we seen a decline since 1996 in student population and in the number of boards but we have also seen a decline in the money or the percentage that has been put into the operating grants. I just refer to the last time the twenty-seven school boards, Madam Chair, were operating. School board provincial revenues have declined by $18.4 million including $5.9 million in teaching service grants, $9 million in operating grants, and $3 million in other revenues.

Now, when the minister refers to, I guess, the revenue per pupil, we have to take into account, of course, that our pupil numbers are certainly declining, as have been the funds that have been allocated to the different operating grants, the capital grants, the teacher grants and so on and so forth.

I just want to again say, that when it comes to the Auditor General it is so, so important that we take care of that particular office to make sure we get a good accountability. Now, the Auditor General can give good accountability but we cannot always ensure that the government will be as accountable, certainly, as the Office of the Auditor General.

The particular offices that I am, again, very pleased to see, and I refer to the Citizen's Representative, but more importantly the Child and Youth Advocate. When we look at the Child and Youth Advocate Office, certainly it is a bit early to be talking about how much in the way of finances is put toward that office, but I am sure that this government has given a commitment. I think my colleague was up a little bit earlier on her feet asking about the number of salary units and that. Madam Chair, I have to say to you that this is an area that was badly needed, that the policy of this party was to get it in place now for many, many years. To see it in place is indeed very, very good, not only, I suppose, as an office that is there for youth and children but it is an office that certainly gives parents, educators, and the general citizenry of Newfoundland and Labrador the security that our young people, that our children, that our youth, are being looked after in this particular way. I am pleased to see that office, I am pleased to see it financed and I am very, very comfortable that the concerns and the needs of the youth of this Province certainly would be taken care of.

Just in cluing up, Madam Chair, I will go back to what my colleague from Bonavista South mentioned earlier. I certainly represent a rural district and am very familiar with some of the things that he has talked about in how difficult it is sometimes to get the work that you want done, done. I certainly would support him in looking for ways in which to better serve the people who have elected us. I look forward to further debate on that particular area.

I will just leave it at that and, again, thank the Government House Leader for his response by nodding and whatever; but be assured, I will probably talk a little bit later on other parts of this particular budget.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just wanted to say a few words about the Legislature vote in the Estimates. If I may particularly refer for a moment to one budget item which I find to be rather low; in fact very low. That is the head called Standing and Select Committees. There is a section of the budget - in last year's budget there was $53,500 budgeted for Standing and Select Committees; $8,100 was spent and we have a budget for $132,500 for the coming year. I do not know what the explanation for that is. There is a Purchased Services of $95,000 that was $1,500 last year. I do not know what is planned to be purchased.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: I hear from the aside, the Member for Ferryland say that the Public Accounts Committee plans to spend all that money.

MR. SULLIVAN: No, they are hosting a conference, Jack, this year.

MR. HARRIS: They are hosting a conference, okay. That is the explanation for the increase. That really only reinforces my point, Madam Chair, is that this House does not use committees the way it should. This House does not make use of the members of this House to play a role in influencing public policy, in hearing the views of people around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, in formulating or criticizing legislation, taking legislative reviews so that the people have a chance to have some input into the legislation before it comes to the House. Because once it gets here, for the most part, we have the government already committed to the legislation through the Cabinet of the minister, and we have people on this side of the House who will oppose the legislation, sometimes just because they want to oppose anything the government says, sometimes for very good positive reasons. In fact, the committee process, when it works on legislation, has ended up - in my experience in this House, which is a lot more than many members here. I am not the most senior, but a lot more than many here. When the committee system on legislation has been in operation, the legislation has invariably been improved. We have heard from bodies who might be directly affected by the legislation. We have heard from bodies who have an interest in the legislation. We have heard from individuals who have particular concerns about legislation, and legislation has been improved.

We had a most recent experience, Madam Chair. It wasn't the legislative committee. This one was - I am sure we spent more than $8,000 on the FPI committee travelling around the Province for our meetings in nine different locations, but I would have to say it was not a legislative committee. It wasn't a committee of his House, directly speaking. It was a committee of members of this House, chaired by the Minister of Fisheries. I would say that the members who sat on that committee would, to a person, agree - and, Madam Chair, you shared the duties on that committee. I think you would agree that it was a very positive experience in terms of being in touch with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, of them having their say, them having an influence on decisions that were made in this House, having influence on the committee because we went around the Province and we heard, firsthand, what people had to say; their concerns, what was affecting them, what they feared about the FPI circumstances, their experience with FPI as an organization, their interest in the legislation, the importance of the fishery to their communities, for example, and all of that that went with it. It resulted in an unanimous report which came from members on the government side of the House, with one minister involved, members of the Official Opposition, and myself, as a representative of the New Democratic Party caucus.

That committee experience was most instructive in terms of how this Legislature can be more representative of the people that we serve by using committees. We now have Mr. Chair in the chair. It is a shame, Mr. Chair - maybe I should just say Chair. No Mr. Chair and no Madam Chair, just Chair.

It is a shame, Chair, that we have for an appropriation of an amount that is only enlarged to cover the fact that the Public Accounts Committee is hosting, I assume, a national conference of Public Accounts Committee members or chairs and vice-chairs to talk about public accounts, and the money is allocated for that. I think that is a reasonable expenditure. I suppose it is our turn across the country, different provinces would host such a meeting. This allocation is not allocated for the purposes of having committees of this House, whether they be select committees of this House or standing committees of this House. We have a Resource Policy Committee. We have a Social Services Committee and we have a Government Services Committee. Why, for example, could not the Resource Policy Committee engage in a series of hearings in this Province on our resource policy? Why could we not examine, through a committee of this House, the royalty regimes that we have for offshore oil and gas? The royalty regimes we have for minerals in this Province? Why could we not engage in serious public debate and receive input from people around the Province, from people who have an interest in these policy issues, who may have facts and figures and information to provide to a committee that could influence legislative policy and could influence government policy on matters of such great importance as that?

We have a Social Services Committee whose only function, for the most part, is to sit on the Estimates for five departments in meetings that take place during the next ten days. That is it, all over. They do not meet when the House is not in session. They do not examine legislation of a social nature that comes before the House from the Department of Education, the Department of Human Resources and Employment, and the Department of Health. These are not examined by these committees. They should be, but they are not.

Will we have a consultation, for example? The Minister of Human Resources and Employment is now having a consultation on certain aspects of social services. Where is the committee's role in all of this? What we have seen is people, ministerial staff and the minister himself, holding consultations out at various points, but not members of this House. You do not get the variety of experience of members of this House who, every day in their offices - as previous members have said - are hearing from people who are complaining about how they are being treated or what service they are getting from the Department of Human Resources and Employment about issues of income support, about issues of the kind of support they are getting. You do not have a committee of this House with members from all sides of the House sitting and hearing how people are dealing with issues that are under the leadership of the Department of Human Resources and Employment, particularly issues of social services.

I was at a consultation recently here in St. John's where you had the minister, the deputy minister, and three or four other people from the department, all there with one aim and one voice, and other people of the department are all departmental people, and members of the public were speaking to the minister. I happened to be there watching, sitting in the back of the room, with no opportunity to participate or to ask questions or have an influence on a report that might go back -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: By leave, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: I was there as a Member of the House of Assembly, as a person who is interested in the issues, who wanted to see and hear what people had to say. How much better, I say, if we had Members of the House of Assembly, such as the Member for Bonavista South, the members opposite, backbench members opposite, sitting, who have to deal every day with questions from constituents, with people trying to deal with government departments, and have our experience as part of what might be able to interpret and reflect on what is being said by the people who appear before a committee, to ask questions, and then to present a report to this House to say: We like this about the proposal from the bureaucracy, but that we do not like. There are other ideas that should be considered.

That is what I see, Mr. Chair, as a role that committees could and should play in the House of Assembly. We are not using the talents of all the members. It may be that there is a majority on this side of the House this year, but there are twenty-two people on this side of the House that have something to offer to government policy, not just to be opposed for opposing sake, not just to say you should be out and someone else should be in - that is part of the political process - but to offer constructive, positive suggestions to improve government policy, to improve legislation, and to improve the way that we serve the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have a real deficiency here. We have a real deficiency here in our support for committees under the financial head. There should be monies for committees to travel. There should be monies for people, for committees to have staff to advise and to write reports. There should be money - I know we have the Legislative Clerk of Committees who plays that role in certain committees, but maybe there should be more. The House of Commons, for example, Standing Committees of the House of Commons have enormous and powerful roles to play in the formation of government policy, and we should here.

The Premier mentioned that we have moved more towards the federal system in how we allocate resources to Members of the House of Assembly. That is true, but why should we not do that at the committee level? Why should we not do that in the form of standing and select committees to help do the work of government? There is not enough consultation, Mr. Chair. When the consultation goes on, it is a minister going out and having meetings, inviting people to come, or the health forums which are by invitation. They are always talked about as a public consultation, but they are by invitation of the Minister of Health. There should all-party representation on numerous committees to look at issues that come before this House, that need consideration.

There is lots of time between sittings of the House. This House does not sit very many weeks during the year. There is plenty of time for members of this House to serve on committees, to provide valuable advice to government and to the Legislature, and to hear from the people. I think that is something that we really should change. I would like to see a much higher budget for committees, to allow them to do that work.

I see the time is getting late, Mr. Chair, and I know I have gone over my time. I have a number of other things I would like to say but I will end at this point and raise these issues at another time.

CHAIR (Mercer): Shall subheads 1.1.01. to 5.1.01. inclusive carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 5.1.01., carried.

On motion, Department of the House of Assembly, total heads, carried.

On motion, Estimates for the House of Assembly approved, without amendment.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I move the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and have asked me to report passage of the Consolidated Fund Services and the Legislature Heads, and ask leave to sit again.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole on Supply reports that it has considered the matters to it referred, and has directed him to report the Estimates for the Legislature and the Consolidated Fund carried, and asks leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, before making the motion to adjourn the House, I would just like to make an announcement regarding the Estimates. The Resource Committee will meet on Tuesday, April 23 at 9:00 a.m. to review the Estimates of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. The Government Services Committee will meet on Tuesday, April 23 at 7:00 p.m. to review the Estimates of the Department of Environment. Both committees will meet in the Assembly Chamber.

Mr. Speaker, I move that the House do now adjourn and wish all members a very pleasant weekend.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. LUSH: That is what I am told. Monday is a holiday, isn't it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Absolutely.

MR. LUSH: That is why I wished all members a pleasant weekend.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 1:30 p.m.