November 28, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 37


The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Today I have the pleasant task of formerly introducing a member who was elected in the by-election held on November 12. He is Mr. Terry French, in the District of Conception Bay South. I have been advised by the Clerk of the House of Assembly that Mr. French has taken the Oath of Allegiance to the Crown as required by the constitution and has signed the Members Roll.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to you the Member for Conception Bay South, Mr. Terry French. I request the right for him to claim his seat in this House of Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: Let the member take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On Tuesday, November 26, following the statement of the hon. the Minister of Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs announcing the round table discussions in Happy Valley-Goose Bay on the proposed Gull Island hydro development, the hon. the Opposition House Leader raised a point of privilege stating that in being denied an invitation to the meeting the privileges of the members of the Official Opposition were being breached.

Parliamentary privilege, as often been stated in this House, is "the sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by Members of (the) House... without which they could not discharge their functions." Beauchesne's 6th Edition, paragraph §24. To constitute privilege there must be some improper obstruction to the member in performing his or her parliamentary work. Beauchesne's 6th Edition, paragraph §92.

In this instance the minister had invited a number of persons to attend a meeting which was closed to others.

Members of governments and ministers convene meetings and briefings, all the time, and on various matters, which are not open to Members of the House. There have been a number of attempts to invoke privilege in connection with the disclosure of information to some other groups before disclosing it to Members of the House.

In a ruling made on March 19, 2001, Mr. Speaker Milliken of the House of Commons ruled that the disclosure of information on a bill to the media before it was introduced into the House did not constitute a breach of privilege. Similarly, in a ruling of Speaker Fraser on June 18, 1987 - page 7315 of Debates - concerning giving access to a number of individuals who are not Members of the House of Assembly to the text of a White Paper before it was tabled in the House did not found a question of privilege.

In paragraph §31(10) of Beauchesne the same point is made quoting from Speaker Lamoureux, of the House of Commons Debates, October 30,1969, pages 269 and 270. "The question has often been raised whether parliamentary privilege imposes on ministers an obligation to deliver ministerial statements and to make announcements and communications to the public through the House of Commons or to make these announcements or statements in the House rather than outside the chamber. The question has been asked whether Hon. members are entitled, as part of their parliamentary privilege, to receive such information ahead of the general public. I can find no precedent to justify this suggestion."

While members may think they are inconvenienced or that their work is made more difficult if they are not included in such meetings or briefings it is the opinion of the Chair that there is no parliamentary requirement that they be included. In this instance the Chair finds that there is no prima facie case of breach of privilege.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader on November 26 rose on a point of order. The Chair would like to reiterate for all hon. members the ruling of November 21, in which the Chair referred to the importance of conducting the proceedings of the House in such a way as to respect the integrity of all members. As I said at the time, without such respect the proceedings descend into disorder and the work of the House becomes secondary to wrangling and disputes. To quote Marleau and Montpetit at page 525, "... the use of offensive, (or) provocative... language in the House is strictly forbidden." "Personal attacks, insults... are not in order."

On Tuesday, the hon. the Opposition House Leader raised a point of order concerning comments of the hon. the Premier. In answering a question from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. the Premier said, "I am glad that he has probably had an opportunity now to have a fuller briefing with the former Chair of the Hydro board, whom I have great respect for, Mr. Speaker. In fact, I guess the Leader of the Opposition is showing quite clearly that his principles, his morals, are such that it does not really matter what questions you ask, where you get the information base, or what you do, as long as it furthers his political agenda."

The Chair is of the opinion that the hon. the Premier's words, which the Chair has just quoted, impute to the Leader of the Opposition an unworthy motive. As the Chair stated in a ruling on Monday, November 25, it is not acceptable to impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by a member.

I refer members to Beauchesne 6th Edition, §481. In the opinion of the Chair, the Premier's language does fall within the prohibition, and I would ask him to withdraw it.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I withdraw the remarks.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise today on a point of personal privilege. I rise reluctantly, but I rise out of a heavy sense of duty to the members of this House and to myself in the first instance, as a member of caucus, as a member of Cabinet, and as a member and minister of the department who is currently leading on the file, the development of the Lower Churchill.

I want to bring to the attention of the Speaker, comments and assertions, I guess, that were made by the Leader of the Opposition on November 27 on behalf of himself, I guess, and his caucus, as he indicated here. The assertion was this: that he and his members had been provided with information with respect to the Lower Churchill development project by members of Cabinet and by members of caucus.

To me, Mr. Speaker, that is a very serious circumstance for myself because it immediately brings into question whether or not I, as a member of the government of the day, as a minister of the Crown, as the minister leading on this file, and as a member of the caucus on this side of the House, it brings into question whether or not I have, in fact, been derelict - worse than derelict - that I have broken my oath, in probably having it alleged that I may have been one who was sharing information outside of the norm on this file, and that is information that I would share with caucus, Cabinet, or other officials and other agencies that would be appropriately involved in this file.

I ask the hon. Speaker today to take into consideration the issue that I raise, because I believe my personal privileges have been breached, at minimum my integrity as a member of government has been questioned, and I want to affirm to this House and to the Speaker of the House that I have not been derelict, nor have I been irresponsible, nor have I been inappropriately sharing information with anybody that would be inappropriate, including members of the Opposition, on this particular issue.

The assertion that I refer to, obviously, Mr. Speaker, is not lightly considered by myself. I would think it would not lightly be considered by any member of the House who would be, by way of extension of comment, brought under such suspicion, and I would ask the hon. Speaker to rule on this. I am sure that all members on this side of the House maybe feel like I do, that their privileges have been breached and that their integrity has been questioned.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I have been faithful in the oath that I have taken to the Queen of our Commonwealth with respect to my responsibilities on matters of confidentially, on matters of privacy, and on matters of guarding against anything that would injuriously be inflicted upon this government or upon this issue that has brought this comment forth.

I would ask you to rule, Mr. Speaker, on this issue of breach of my privileges. I again attest and affirm that I, as one member of government, have not being sharing inappropriately information with anybody on any file, on any issue, at any time, on any account, and I would ask the public of the Province and the people of this House to understand that I, as one member, as far as I know, I have been faithful and I have not been one who has been sharing inappropriate information, or sharing information inappropriately, with anybody, at any time, for any purpose, on any issue.

I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, inasmuch as I feel that my privileges on this issue have been breached - maybe I am not the only one - I would suggest all of my colleagues on this side of the House might be of a similar feeling in this context.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. WILLIAMS: If he's clean, what about everybody else?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pardon me?

A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair will hear the point of privilege raised by the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy first.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to speak to the point of privilege of the Minister of Mines and Energy. Before I do, I want to say that whatever documents he has in his hand, he is obligated to table those - those references - and I look forward to seeing them.

If my memory serves me correctly, for a point of privilege to be raised, privileges of the Minister or members of this House are not breached according to Marleau, according to Beauchesne, and according to Maingot, if the minister - and I believe he is - referring to statements made outside this Chamber. If, in fact -

AN HON. MEMBER: Will he (inaudible)?

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, that is -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, to the point of privilege, while I appreciate the Minister of Mines and Energy's, I suppose, motivation for standing up and saying it wasn't me or that I did not breach my duties as a minister or relate or give any information to anybody about the issue at hand, the fact of the matter remains that, when it comes to his privileges as a member of this House and his privileges as a minister of the Crown, they were not, in fact, breached; because the statements that the minister refers to were made outside this House in a media scrum and therefore have no basis for a point of privilege in this House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of privilege that was raised, the Chair will certainly review the comments that have been made by the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, take the point raised under advisement and rule on it.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

As my colleague stood and spoke to defend his integrity, the Leader of the Opposition was laughing. He looked up and he said: He spoke, what about the rest of you? That is what he said. I take personal offence to that and I would say, I have never, directly or indirectly, given information out. I would still say, Mr Speaker, when comments are made outside this House about members inside this House, the people of the Province do not often make the differentiation. I feel personally affronted, as I am sure everyone of my colleagues do, and I would ask them how they feel about this too, Mr. Speaker, because I think it speaks to a level that I would prefer never enter this House.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, there was no allegation yesterday outside this House leveled on any member. The record of the House will show clearly that what the Minister of Finance has just said was not said. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that what we are seeing today are points of frustration and not points or order and not points of privilege.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: The matter is easily resolved. All the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has to do is to stand in his place and say that he didn't make the statement or that he withdraws the statement. With respect to the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, everybody stood on this side of the House in affirmation, that they divulge no information to the Leader of the Opposition or to anybody on that side of the House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Again, to the point raised by the hon. the minister, the Chair certainly didn't hear the comment that the hon. member made, but I am sure if the hon. member made any comment that was unparliamentary he will withdraw it.

Statements by Members

 

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Saturday, November 16, I had the opportunity, on behalf of Loyola Hearn, MP for St. John's West, to present to Mrs. Elizabeth Lee of Riverhead, St. Mary's Bay, the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal for her years of dedication to her community, to her Province and, indeed, her country.

Mrs. Elizabeth Lee has been a tower of strength in ensuring that the Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 62 of Riverhead, St. Mary's Bay, has prospered and grown through some very difficult economic times in the past number of years.

I was always aware of Mrs. Lee's involvement but since being elected to this House I have witnessed first-hand the true commitment and dedication of this woman.

She has been an advocate for the perseveration of the Legion Building in Riverhead, but much more than that, she has been a strong advocate for the perseveration of remembering those who fought and died for the freedom we all enjoy today. The Queen's Jubilee Medal is being awarded to those persons who have made a significant contribution to Canada, their community and to their fellow Canadians.

In my words, Mr. Speaker, this medal is being awarded to those among us who have made a difference.

There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure in the minds and hearts of all those who know and have witnessed the actions of Mrs. Elizabeth Lee, that she has indeed made a difference and is very deserving of this prestigious award.

I ask all Members of this House to join with me today in congratulating Mrs. Elizabeth Lee of Riverhead, St. Mary's Bay, on receiving the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal and wish her all the best in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Her, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to congratulate two members from my district who have participated in the Youth Ventures Program. Kirk and Kris Bussey won two awards for their achievement this summer as owner-operators of ‘Burger Boys', a mobile hot dog and snack vendor headquartered in Port de Grave. Kirk and Kris tied for the High Achievement in Marketing award and won the Venture of the Year award.

They both began this enterprise three years ago as a water stand. During this time they have grown to be able to employ not only themselves but seventeen other students. They purchased an RV, created logos and a brand name, and provided uniforms to their staff. The ‘Burger Boys' have been present at the Regatta, the Klondike Festival, the Salmon Festival and won exclusive contracts to sell their products at the Shaggy concert held this past summer.

There were a number of other students that were presented with awards for their participation in this program. Although they are not from my district, I would like to recognize Andrew Cross, Robert Gear, Donovan Parsons, Roland Reid, Amy Pollard, Christopher Mitchelmore, Kristian Wiseman, and Hilary Oram.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to acknowledge the importance of the Youth Ventures Program for Newfoundland and Labrador. The program teaches business skills, builds confidence and strengthens the entrepreneurial spirit of the youth of our Province; it instills an appreciation of the contributions of the small business sector to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think it is fitting that we extend congratulations to the Youth Ventures Program, Kris and Kirk Bussey and to all the youth who have participated in the program.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the tremendous efforts of SmartLabrador, an organization that was chosen as the Smart Communities Demonstration Project for Newfoundland and Labrador. SmartLabrador is one of twelve smart communities from across Canada that uses innovative technology to enhance services for people in the Northern and remote communities so that they may enable a traditional way of life, yet access the global market.

The SmartLabrador Initiative named ‘Technology on Top of the World' is an initiative of the geographic, social, cultural and economic community of Labrador. Earlier this month, I had the pleasure of attending the first-ever Northern Solutions Conference that was held at Happy Valley-Goose Bay. The three-day conference gave the public the opportunity to witness first-hand some of the new technologies at work in Labrador.

It was amazing to see the Smart Services technology that the project has implemented and the number of communities that this organization has reached across Labrador. We were able to use the technology to allow participation from other provinces such as Ontario, Saskatchewan and Nunavut in the conference itself.

Labrador is certainly a smart community that is clearly representative of a community with a vision for the future and is using the information and communication technologies in new and innovate ways to empower its residents and its institutions within the region.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask all members to join me in extending our congratulations to SmartLabrador for it truly is an innovative organization that makes the most of the opportunities that new technologies afford to improve the health care system, the education system, and provide training and new business opportunities for people in our northern communities.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I recently attended the Newfoundland and Labrador Soccer Association and the Burin Peninsula Soccer Hall of Fame induction ceremonies as nine new members were elected to the Burin Peninsula Hall of Fame and seven new members were inducted to the Provincial Soccer Hall of Fame. All who attended agreed that these inductees have made a significant impact to the growth of soccer in this Province.

I want to send a special congratulations to Joanne Mallay-Jones of Marystown, one of the nine new Burin Peninsula Hall of Fame inductees. She won five soccer scoring titles in the Burin Peninsula Soccer League between 1985 and 1994, and was also part of university teams at Memorial and the University of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, I would like also to congratulate the rest of the Burin Peninsula Soccer Hall of Fame Nominees this year: Albert Anstey and Bill Grandy from the Burin Area; Luke Edwards of Lawn; Yvonne Edwards, Keith Farrell, Murdock Hiscock and Howard Lake of St. Lawrence; and Eli Lee of Grand Bank, who have all played an integral role in development of soccer on the Burin Peninsula, and I, along with my hon. colleague from Grand Bank, believe they should be recognized.

I would also like to congratulate Mr. Don Turpin of St. Lawrence, a familiar voice to soccer fans on the Burin Peninsula, who was inducted into the Provincial Soccer Hall of Fame, along with Keith Farrell of St. Lawrence; Eli Lee and John Russell of Grand Bank; Ken Hunt of Deer Lake; Adrian Miller of St. John's; and Jean (Lake) Thompson of Paradise.

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate all of these inductees for their accomplishments and it is just further proof that soccer will continue to have a strong link in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

 

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, today the report from the Royal Commission on the Future of Health Care in Canada was tabled in the House of Commons. For the past eighteen months, the Commission, led by Mr. Roy Romanow, has been working to develop policies and measures to ensure the long-term sustainability of a universally accessible, publicly-funded health system for the country.

Mr. Romanow has made a number of recommendations to improve the health system in this country. We will immediately review these recommendations as they relate to health services in our Province.

Premiers have for some time being calling upon the federal government to assume its fair share of responsibility by joining with provinces and territories in a new funding partnership that will allow us to make the adjustments necessary to sustain health care.

There are a number of positive forward-looking recommendations, such as the reference made to taking a needs-based approach to the allocation of the Canada Health Transfer. This gives us some hope that our needs may be partially addressed in the longer term. We are somewhat concerned, Mr. Speaker, by the lack of a recommendation for immediate new funding to stabilize our current health and community services system.

We are also pleased that Mr. Romanow recognizes reform of the equalization program is critical to the sustainability of health care programming in smaller, less-wealthy provinces such as Newfoundland and Labrador.

The health care budget in our Province is $1.5 billion. Since1996-1997, government has consistently invested new money into health and community services. It has meant a 46 per cent increase in funding in this Province over that period of time. The health budget in our Province now makes up 45 per cent of the total program spending of the government. For every $1 billion put into health care in the country, a per capita transfer would mean about $17 million in Newfoundland and Labrador.

While some of the suggested funding allocations contained in the report may seem like large investments in health care nationally, we are concerned about the portion we would receive. For example, our budget for the Prescription Drug Program alone increased 30 per cent from 1998-1999 to this current year. The cost for us to pay for our doctors, nurses and other health care professionals is hundreds of millions of dollars.

Mr. Speaker, provincial and territorial governments are already working diligently to manage our health care systems effectively both to sustain and improve the quality, efficiency and effectiveness of core health services. The provision of any new federal funding will assist us in fulfilling our plans. However, I must point out that provinces and territories are in the best position to know how and where to allocate any funding.

I have directed the Minister of Health and Community Services to review the Commissioner's recommendations in light of our own priorities and advise on how we can support our own plans through these recommendations. As we are all aware, Newfoundland and Labrador has recently released its own provincial Strategic Health Plan, Healthier Together, which lays out a broad, innovative approach to health and community services for this Province.

I have also directed the Finance Minister to analyze the funding proposals recommended by Mr. Romanow and provide advice over the next few weeks leading up to a First Ministers' meeting early in the new year.

Next week, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health and Community Services will be meeting with his provincial and territorial colleagues on the Romanow Report. On December 17 and 18, the Minister of Finance will be meeting with her colleagues on the same issue. I am encouraged that these key ministers will meet quickly to discuss the recommendations of this report.

I join with other premiers across the country in that I am pleased to see that many of the recommendations we have been making have been echoed by Mr. Romanow, and others, recently. What is important now is that we turn these recommendations into action and reality. We have continuously increased our health care budgets and we feel it is now time that the federal government do its part by restoring its fair share of health care funding in the country.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are extremely pleased with the recommendations in the Romanow Report. I think there is a real lesson in the Romanow process because he truly demonstrated what it is truly like to have full public open consultation in developing a vision and a future for our health services.

Mr. Speaker, we are particularly pleased with the notion that there is going to be an expansion of the Canada Health Act to include such things as home care and pharmacare in the future. These are futurist - very important issues facing Canada's health system. For a Province like Newfoundland and Labrador, it continuously references focus on rural Canada and that is important for us.

We, too, Mr. Speaker, share the Premier's comments with respect to ensuring that these bold new initiatives have adequate federal funding attached to them, so I am extremely pleased to see that.

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that he continued to echo in his release today, and in his public press comment, was that he was calling on all of the premiers in all of the provinces in Canada to come together in a spirit of co-operation. I trust one of the comments that the Premier made about pointing out that it is, in fact, the provinces who know best what to do with their health care, that comment is not indicative of the spirit in which he is going enter into discussions with the federal government with respect to having a much more cooperative arrangement for health care in this country.

One of the other things that is extremely pleasing, Mr. Speaker, is Romanow's suggestion that he is going to add a sixth principle to the Canada Health Act, and that is the principle of accountability. If there is anything that this country needs and this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador desperately needs is a provision, a mandatory provision, in legislation holding governments accountable for the scarce health care money that we are spending. So, we are extremely pleased and overwhelmingly endorse that particular principle. I think, with that principle in place, it will give the people of Newfoundland and Labrador some level of comfort, that someone will now be finally held accountable for the $1.5 billion that we are spending on health care.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are very pleased with the report of Roy Romanow today which we hope will bring to an end the debate about health care in this country and make a turning point towards improving our system, rather than trying to take it apart by dissecting it and replacing it with a private for-profit system.

Mr. Romanow has affirmed the principles of the Canada Health Act and their value to this country, suggested adding accountability as a feature which I believe is necessary, and also has outlined proposed directions for change to add coverage for home care services to the Canada Health Act, to add support for home mental health case management and other support for mental illnesses to the Canada Health Act, expand the Canada Health Act to cover home care for post-acute care and medication management and rehabilitation services, and also palliative care services.

This is the beginning, Mr. Speaker, of a national drug program and also a national home care strategy, one which I hope will be now turned into implementation and firm support by this government and governments across the country.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise today to inform this hon. House that the Premier's round table discussion on the proposed Gull Island project in Happy Valley-Goose Bay on Wednesday was a resounding success.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: More than thirty business, Aboriginal and community leaders from all over Labrador came together, Mr. Speaker, to discuss this very important proposed development, and we all walked away with a sense of accomplishment. My colleague from Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair and the Member for Torngat Mountains, along with the Member for Labrador West, all participated in the discussion, as did the MP for Labrador.

In all my years of public life, Mr. Speaker, I can honestly say that this was one of the more productive meetings I have had the pleasure to attend.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: What we have managed to accomplish, Mr. Speaker, was a consensus to move forward with discussions to develop the Gull Island project. People made it very clear that specific benefits must be provided to Labrador, and I would suggest you listen to these.

These include, Mr. Speaker: A plan to address the high cost of electricity on the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, just to repeat. It is very clear that specific benefits must be provided to Labrador, and these include: A plan to address the high cost of electricity on the Labrador coast; the ability to recall electricity from Gull Island for industrial development in Labrador; and a Labrador economic development fund, to be administered by and for the people of Labrador and for the communities in which they live.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, more than anyone else in the Province, the people of Labrador, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, have felt the injustices of the past when it comes to resource development. This injustice has been compounded by false starts, heightened expectations and lack of consultation by past governments.

I have been involved in public life for nearly thirty years and yesterday was a turning point - a point in our history when the people of Labrador said the decision to develop in Labrador must begin in Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to again thank the Premier for his continued commitment to listening to the concerns of the people of Labrador.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, there must have been two meetings in Labrador yesterday. Today's media quotes the Mayor of Labrador City as saying, "Maybe it is my own fault. I came here with false expectations. I'm not getting the information that I thought I would get today so I'm in no better position than I was this morning to make a decision on whether it is a good deal or not."

The Mayor of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Mr. Hickey, is also quoted as saying, "I'm not comfortable with the idea of having our banker for a partner." He continues to say, "We said ‘here are out demands, Mr. Premier. Now you put our demands in your framework with Quebec.'"

Mr. Speaker, the frustration of the people of Labrador is shared by all of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador feel shut out and dismayed, primarily for two reasons on this issue, because of the little amount of information that they are aware of and because of the vast amount of information that they are not aware of.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know one thing that did not happen at the meeting in Labrador yesterday, the people who were there did not even get the power point presentation that was supposed to be presented to the board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The meeting was not about the Premier's deal. What was made clear at the meeting yesterday was: no major development in Labrador for Gull Island or anything else - whether it be by this government, by a Tory government or by an NDP government - is going to take place without proper consultation with the people of Labrador, without them having a say, without them putting their demands and preconditions on the table.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: What they have done is put preconditions on the table for any deal. They did not approve any deal. They did not comply with any deal. They did not see any deal, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: They made preconditions for any deal that should take place, and that is a good thing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to update the hon. House on a resolution which was passed unanimously here on Thursday past.

Mr. Speaker, the resolution read in part, BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this House unanimously request that all Newfoundland and Labrador Members of Parliament and Senators meet with the Premier, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and the leaders of the Official Opposition and New Democratic Party to ensure we are working collectively and cooperatively for the best interests of the people and communities of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that a meeting has been arranged and an invitation has been extended to all the aforementioned individuals. The meeting will be held in Ottawa on Monday, December 2, 2002.

Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of the meeting will be to discuss a common and cooperative approach to identifying and addressing potential impacts of possible cod fishery closures in this Province, including the need for Ottawa to develop a comprehensive compensation package for affected Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

While in Ottawa on Monday, Mr. Speaker, I will also be attending a meeting of the Atlantic Fisheries Ministers along with the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. Mr. Speaker, the potential cod fisheries closures and the state of the Atlantic cod stocks will be the main agenda item at this meeting, and I will once, again, bring forward the concerns of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians regarding this issue.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, would like to say that we are happy that the meeting is arranged on this very important issue, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to bring up a very important thing. In the debate that we had on Thursday past, a fine debate in non-partisan politics, we talked about working collectively and cooperatively for the best interests of the people in the communities in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture was informed at 1:00 o'clock yesterday that the Leader of the Opposition was unable to attend any meeting on Monday coming, that he was available for any other day in the next two weeks.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TAYLOR: Any other day in the next two weeks, and it matters not why. He was informed of that. What happened to the non-partisan politics? What happened to working collectively?

The minister also knows that the Leader of the Opposition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TAYLOR: - could have attended any meeting here in Newfoundland on Monday. So, Mr. Speaker, the cooperation, where is it and why has he left it out of this important meeting?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to say that we certainly welcome the opportunity to have the meeting that we agreed upon last week. As it happens, I am available on Monday. I was asked yesterday about my availability and I was available. I do not know whether or not - and I am sure the minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition was as well, and I hope it could be arranged for a time that all people involved in this proposal can be available for the meeting.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I would like to inform members that last night I, along with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development, the Minster of Human Resources and Employment, and the Minister of Government Services and Lands, attended the 10th anniversary celebration of the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association and the 1st Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Awards.

We would like to congratulate the winners of the following awards announced last night: Capacity Building in the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Sector - Newfound Disposal Systems of St. Johns; Environmental Performance in Newfoundland and Labrador Industry Sector- Corner Brook Pulp and Paper; Community - Evergreen Recycling; Outstanding Individual Contribution to the Environmental Industry in Newfoundland and Labrador - Mr. Bevin LeDrew and also Mr. Paul Antle, owner and CEO of Island Waste Management.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank NEIA for its co-operation and partnering to assist our Province in dealing with waste management issues and providing expertise and advice in developing environmental policy and legislation.

Newfoundland and Labrador's environmental industry has grown steadily during the past ten years. Today, there are more than 200 companies operating in the environmental sector, employing more than 2,000 people. The sector brings an estimated $120 million in economic value to the Province annually. Our environmental industry is diverse and dynamic today and, according to industry sources, is expected to grow at a rate of 8 per cent annually for the next ten years.

The work of the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association will continue to play an extremely important role in the implementation of the Province's Waste Management Strategy and providing partnerships in environmental initiatives in our Province.

Government recognizes that the environmental sector is an emerging force in our economy and that a strong industry association is a key ingredient to achieving the full potential of the sector.

Again, Mr. Speaker, congratulations to the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association on its 10th Anniversary and the significant accomplishments it has achieved to date.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, was at the dinner last night, along with the ministers, Mr. Speaker, and I wish to congratulate Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, Newfound Disposal Systems, Evergreen Recycling, Bevin LeDrew and Paul Antle.

The recycling and waste management industry in this Province has a long way to go before we catch up to what Nova Scotia has been doing for the past ten years. It is groups like the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association that have been the driving force in this Province to force government and the Department of Environment to take on some of the initiatives in this Province that are long overdue, that have been taking place in other provinces for years.

I would like to recognize and congratulate the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association for the work that they have been doing throughout the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join in congratulating the Newfoundland and Labrador Environmental Industry Association on its 10th Anniversary as an industry organization in the Province, and to say that an industry organization like this creates a sense of professionalism amongst the members and creates higher standards for the work they do in helping to clean up our environment and making our environment more responsive to recycling and other needs. Waste management is very important, but also environmental management and environmental sustainability.

I would also like to join also in congratulating the winners of the awards-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - who have demonstrated excellence in this area.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions this afternoon are for the Premier.

If I could, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out and welcome, first of all, Terry French's wife Denise, and his mom, Betty French, in the gallery, and his daughter Abbey, who obviously is not too impressed with the Ministerial Statements because she is asleep.

I would certainly like to welcome them to the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, on Monday of this week, the Premier said, and I quote, "...this Government of Canada of today has made a conscious policy decision to not be involved in funding and building new megaprojects...".

Mr. Speaker, could the Premier please table the most recent request he has made to the federal government, and/or federal Minister Gerry Byrne, to help finance the Lower Churchill project for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to have the Leader of the Opposition chase after another red herring today. It has already been exposed twice in the last little while, Mr. Speaker, here in the House today most definitively, in terms of dealing with this very serious issue by innuendo, suggesting that he has information in his possession that is confidential, that he should not have, he sees nothing wrong with that. The sources, he said, were the caucus and the Cabinet, and every single member on this side of the House today denied that in person in this Legislature and he laughed at it. That is how seriously he takes this, because he spreads these rumours by innuendo.

Now he is asking about a report in the media yesterday -

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind hon. members that we should keep points of orders until the end of Question Period.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to stand here and allow the Premier to get on with innuendo, imputing motives. You have made him withdraw statements today, imputing motives -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: You have made him withdraw statements today, and I ask you to make the Premier, to advise him that what he just insinuated is imputing motives again to the Leader of the Opposition, and ask him to withdraw those statements inside this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, the Chair will just review Hansard to see the context in which the hon. Premier has used the words that the hon. member has referred to.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So his tactic of suggesting that it is people on this side of the House who have been giving him information, therefore trying to cast doubt amongst the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, has been fully and totally exposed.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: He has also insulted the bureaucrats of Newfoundland and Labrador by suggesting they have been giving information as well, Mr. Speaker. Now he is trying to deal with a story in the press from yesterday -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

- a story in the press that suggested a transmission line between Manitoba and Ontario was discussed between the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario, and I have asked to have information with respect to that collected right away.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, it was with great interest that I read yesterday's National Post article entitled: PM touts Manitoba hydro dam to Eves.

According to that article, which the Premier just referred to, the Prime Minister raised the issue of the Manitoba dam with the Ontario Premier because Ontario - poor Ontario - could not afford the cost of transmission lines from Manitoba without federal assistance.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to now get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: The Premier of Manitoba said he was even encouraged by the Prime Minister's intervention.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question now.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is: Why can't the Premier of our Province convinced the Prime Minister that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are also Canadians, and that we deserve federal assistance to develop our power project just as much as Manitoba and Ontario?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: And why is it that the Premiers of Ontario and Manitoba can progress their energy plan with Ottawa when our Premier simply cannot?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That was a classic example of the tactic and approach of the Leader of the Opposition. I do not jump to conclusions, Mr. Speaker, I get the facts.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this: As soon as I read the story yesterday, I instructed officials and others to find out the background of it.

The Leader of the Opposition stands up today and would suggest to members of this House and the people of the Province that there is already a deal struck between Manitoba, Ontario, and the federal government. That is the approach that the Leader of the Opposition takes. We are having it checked out because that is the way we do business - cautiously, prudently - because we want to do it in the best interest of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, not to grandstand and to play politics with it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this Premier stood in this House on Monday and said that the Government of Canada is not prepared to consider funding for megaprojects. Now, I can only read the paper. I am only the Leader of the Opposition. This man is Premier of the Province; he should know that the Prime Minister is prepared to consider this under the Kyoto Plan.

Mr. Speaker, for some reason, we, as a Province, as not leveraging our bargaining power with Quebec as a result of their shortage of power in the next decade. As well, we now know that the Prime Minister of Canada is determined to ratify the Kyoto Accord in order to address climatic issues and change -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: - and you know, Premier, that he is now prepared to consider funding on that basis.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier not agree that our cheap and our clean energy in Labrador puts us in a favourable position to solicit federal support for developing the Lower Churchill when the Prime Minister is now considering supporting the Conawapa power project to reduce emissions in Manitoba and Ontario?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We do know two things. There have been no agreements reached between Manitoba and Ontario and the federal government with respect to any development. That is a fact today. We do know, at least we thought until a few days ago, that the Opposition shared with us the concerns about Kyoto because nobody knows what the plan is. I thought we shared a view on that in a private member's motion here a week ago Wednesday, where everybody voted together and said -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER GRIMES: Well, the Leader of the NDP did not - because there was no certainty about what the plans are for the federal government, but we are dealing with issues that are in our own control.

Mr. Speaker, we do know something else: that, if the Opposition has its way, and this is the stated view on the public record of Newfoundland and Labrador, it does not matter about the Government of Canada, whether they pay or not, because his position, stated on Open Line and again reaffirmed in this House, is that unless and until Quebec agrees to renegotiate the Upper Churchill contract, the Lower Churchill will never be developed anyway supposing the Government of Canada is willing to pay for all of it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Because his position is, it will never be done unless the Upper Churchill contract is opened.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, it seems that everyone is interested, including the Prime Minister, in helping Ontario and Manitoba, and certainly including this government who is prepared to let billions of dollars worth of our nickel, our cobalt and our copper go to Ontario and Manitoba as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, to a related subject on the Lower Churchill, I ask -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank heavens for the media. The Quebec newspaper, La Presse - silence - reported on Tuesday -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question, quickly.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Premier know that the Quebec newspaper, La Presse, reported on Tuesday that most of the design and engineering work for the Lower Churchill will be done in Quebec? Mr. Speaker, can the Premier please confirm that, in fact, most of the design and engineering work on the Lower Churchill will be done in Quebec?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can confirm the exact opposite. The Leader of the Opposition suggested he has documentation in his hands that he got from sources within this Cabinet and within this caucus, which was found out today to be not true. Which is not true now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: Which is not true. So, he has the information and if he is looking at the information that he has and he is not supposed to have, because he wants us one minute to believe that he has it and that he got it from a Cabinet Minister. He wants one minute -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: - to believe that he has it and he got it from a caucus member. He wants us to believe that he has it and he got it from some bureaucrats. He wants us to believe that he has and he got it through some e-mails. He wants us to believe that he has the information and got it from some brown envelopes. Well, read the information that you have or admit that you do not have it, because you will find out that there is not only that statement in the story in the press which is dead wrong, but several others in the same story. I can confirm that for you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, if this project is subject to a fixed amount of financing -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: - and if this project is subject to a fixed cost or a fixed completion date, then the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is going to have to do whatever it takes to meet those terms and avoid overruns or otherwise lose ownership of the project.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier agree -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier agree that employment benefits to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador could be compromised and, in fact, reduced dramatically if it becomes necessary to employ Quebeckers to meet those deadlines, which would be set by the people who are, in fact, loaning us the money in the first place?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, now maybe we can use this question to get back to the crux of the matter.

He talks about overruns and suggests now that he knows something, based on information that he is supposed to have. He has now said to the media: I have this information. Now he is denying that he has it. Either he has it or he does not have it; because, Mr. Speaker, it cannot be both ways. You cannot stand up and suggest that you asking questions on the basis of information because otherwise he would have known the answer to the last question was that it was dead wrong what was in La Presse. Absolutely dead wrong!

Maybe now we can suggest: Do you have information that you should not have? Are you asking real questions or are you just grasping at straws to try to create a negative attitude towards this project in Newfoundland and Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My next question is for the Minister of Justice.

Minister, could you please confirm for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that nowhere, anywhere in this deal or anywhere in any of these contracts, have we waived or postponed our right to sue anywhere in this deal with Quebec Hydro?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe the people of the Province are finally, maybe seeing through the tactic used by the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Speaker, let me restate again. Our position clearly is this: When we are finished the negotiations - because we are trying to do something for the benefits of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - we have already committed to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that we will disclose all of the detail, all of the information, have a full debate, have a full debate in here, have a standing vote and a free vote. That is the democratic process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: I understand now that the Leader of the Opposition, outside of the House, wants to talk quite openly and brag about the fact that he has information from sources and maybe he is calling a rally to talk about the details next Monday.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Whereas in here, if he really has the details he would know that the question he asked about the La Presse was dead wrong.

Mr. Speaker, he has to make up his mind whether he wants the people of the Province to believe that he has information and that he should tell us where he got it because it did not get it from this crowd.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I ask the hon. the Premier to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: He did not get it from this crowd, Mr. Speaker, which is what he was saying last week, and then we will deal with the facts.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Another question for the Minister of Justice, the lawyer in Cabinet, the Attorney General for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Justice - the same question that I asked the Minister of Energy yesterday - please confirm for this House and the people of our Province that he has seen, and he has read, all documentation submitted to the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and that he supports each and every condition contained therein, therefore he supports the deal as presented to the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in its entirety?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What I would say and advise the hon. Leader of the Opposition, same as I did in the Voisey debate, I will have the benefit of seeing all documentation, I am sure, if and when a deal is struck. Similar to my comments on Voisey's, I look forward to any loopholes that might exist, as he suggested in Voisey's and we are still waiting to hear from.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, rather than operate in a fearmongering or create the bogeyman scenario, as the Leader of the Opposition would like to do, rest assured, that when there is a deal this minister will have his view of it and his opinions of it.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture has a small capital grants program that fishermen's committees throughout the Province can access to do work on community fisheries infrastructures. The grants are usually small in nature and in the order of $3,000 to $5,000.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm how much of the budget for this program has been spent to date, and on what types of initiatives it has been spent?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is a program in the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture and it is worth in the area of $300,000 to $350,000. The purpose of this program is to help fisheries committees around the Province replace a few planks on their wharves or to do something to their stages or whatnot. It is a very good program, and I think all the members in the House who have availed of it will tell you it is probably one of the best ones that we have in the Province.

I do not know exactly how much I have spent in that program right now, Mr. Speaker, but I can certainly have that information for the member in the next couple of days.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, he is right, it is a good program and a lot of committees do avail of it.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier's good news ad campaign has cost approximately $250,000 and the Premier says that it has come from existing departmental communications budgets. I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture this: Did any, and if so how much, of the money from the department's grant program went to cover the cost of the Premier's ad campaign?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't know where the hon. member is coming from but I am not aware that one cent from that program has been spent on any ads.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits &White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, Mr. Speaker, that is different from the information that I have. I have been given information that the grant budget has been, effectively, exhausted, that in excess of $50,000 has been taken from this program to cover the Premier's ad campaign.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm that the program money from the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture has been taken to cover the Premier's ad campaign?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I think that the information the hon. member has is much like the information his leader is always talking about, he is floating around here all the time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Put the information forward.

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that one cent of that capital grant program, Sir, has been spent on anything other than wharfs and slipways around this Province for the benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador fishermen and fisherwomen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Finance.

I want to ask the minister, why she is allowing a company such as Archean Resources to pay 20 per cent on a net smelter royalty and an overall tax burden of 57.34 per cent, when a multi-billion dollar company such as Inco only has to pay a tax rate of 46 per cent?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I think the question will be more telling than the answer, and I will say that, that piece of legislation has been in place since 1975. I think it might have even been brought in during the Tories time in government, when they were the actual government. I would say, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that every corporation in the Province pays a corporate income tax. The member also knows, I would imagine, that when they pay their federal portion, they pay out the dividends, they get a 5 per cent rebate. Still, Mr. Speaker, the bottom line is, even with this 20 per cent tax that we are imposing - and we make no apologies for imposing a royalty tax for non-renewable resources that everyone in this Province owns. The members opposite are always standing on their feet saying we are not getting enough royalties. What way is it, Mr. Speaker?

I can say that the money we get, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this royalty tax is going into our health care system, and I would still say that the 3 per cent royalty regime -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - that Archean Resources negotiated and the millions and millions and millions they have, we are happy they are getting it, but we are also quite happy that we are getting our royalties to put into the health care services for the people of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This was brought in on the conclusion of the Goundrey Commission in 1976, the levy of taxes on companies or individuals who could contractually transfer the right to mine. There is no other province in this country collecting it, and this Province never collected it on Nugget Pond until Archean initiated some legal action and then they collected from them so they would be able to cover their backs on this particular issue here.

I say to the minister, you should be aware, as minister, of the impact that exportation companies are going to have, because they go to areas to avoid high taxation, to areas of lower taxation, and we are not competitive.

I want to ask the minister: Has she considered the impact that this is having on exploration in our Province, and for many years to come?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that future exploration expenses can be deducted, so that is the answer to the first question, but a bigger question is: Am I ascertaining - because I would not create innuendo, but I will ask the question. Does it mean, if that member formed a part of a government, that they would allow millionaires to keep the millions and not put it in to the people of the Province for our health care programs and services? Is that the agenda over there? Because this side, this government, we make no apology for collecting the due royalty regime that is due for the people of our Province for the delivery of health care services. It has been in the legislation and, Mr. Speaker, more importantly, has been omitted. It has gone to the courts twice.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer quickly.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Once, to the Trial Division, which they lost; secondly, to the Court of Appeal, and the Court of Appeal unanimously upheld government's decision. So, Mr. Speaker, we are on the side of the people here and that is where we are staying.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Every single group in this Province - Newfoundland and Labrador Chamber of Mineral Resources, the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada, Newfoundland and Labrador prospectors, have all indicated it is going to (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister one simple question: Are you saying that Archean are wealthier than Inco?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, only Archean can answer that question, but I can say unequivocally, this government makes no apology for collecting a 20 per cent royalty on a non-renewable resource that every single person in Newfoundland and Labrador owns. We are proud of Archean Resources. We wish them all the best with their good fortune.

Mr. Speaker, with the money we collect, we have no problem putting it into health care for the people of our Province, and we make no apology. We do not know what they are doing with their money, but we wish them well with it and we are happy for them. We know what we are doing with our money, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Premier.

About ten days ago, the Premier said that negotiations were all but concluded and that we could expect an announcement on the Lower Churchill some time last week. He had concluded with the Innu, he had concluded with Hydro-Quebec. Will the Premier confirm to this House that the only people that the Premier was negotiating by mid to last week were his own caucus?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have known the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi for a long time and I did not know he had that much of a sense of humor. It was actually pretty good.

Mr. Speaker, the fact of matter is this: I wanted to send a signal to all the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that we, this government, have worked hard at a negotiation with respect to the development of the Lower Churchill at Gull Island, and that we are trying to get to the very final stages of negotiation, and that if things go well we could do it fairly quickly. I wanted to send that message very clearly so we could start focusing on a debate and be ready for it when we do conclude and present information to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Any issue that is outstanding, because I did indicate that we were not finished but we could be by the end of the week - and I did indicate that we were not finished with the Innu, and we still are not, Mr. Speaker, and those two pieces have to come together, but it has been useful for two weeks because what we found is that we have a Leader of the NDP who I understand is willing to wait to get the information and cast judgement at the time, which is what we found that the people of Labrador were willing to do yesterday, Mr. Speaker. They would like to get the information and then make a judgement. They do not want to prejudge, like the Leader of the Opposition has already done.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: The Leader of the Opposition has already prejudged that this is bad, this is no good, he will never sign it -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - and unless the Upper Churchill is renegotiated, they will never do it, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Premier not confirm that the full tentative deal that he had last week was presented to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board, the financial terms, the benefits to this Province, the full parameters of the recall rights and the rates of return to this Province? Will he not confirm that they were presented to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board last week for their consideration?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Board was presented with a framework agreement and some pre-release agreements that were very close to their final form, and ready to be signed if we could conclude the agreement on them. They were also, because they needed to have it, Mr. Speaker, provided with some, I guess what are called term sheets or working text in terms of negotiating documents that were not yet negotiated but were being negotiated for things. There were also some dates in there of things that will happen next year, the year after, the year after, and will be concluded at certain points in time, because they needed to have that information. They were asked to make a serious decision about having their president and CEO sign on to going to the next steps and start spending some money, and asked to make a serious decision about creating a subsidiary of Hydro which could build the project for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. So they were provided in confidence - in confidence - the Leader of the Opposition takes great glee in suggesting that he has the information - so they could do their work and report back to us, because they take their task -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - very seriously on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and so do we.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. LUSH: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, as all hon. members would know, a number of our rules come from precedent, and I respectfully ask Your Honour to comment on the circumstance with respect to points of order during Question Period.

I know that it has been a precedent in the last number of years to try to discourage points of order during Question Period because that interrupts the flow, and I know that I had tried to observe this rule. I do not believe that I have ever transgressed that particular rule. Mr. Speaker, I have noticed that the hon. the Opposition House Leader has, on a couple of occasions, stood up during the Question Period. Now, both sides can play that game. I do not want to do it because I like to see Question Period flow in its natural flow and with its fluidity. Maybe if hon. members know the rules, know what we do, then they would not continuously abuse the rules.

MR. E. BYRNE: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make three points. First of all, the hon. Government House Leader either knows or ought to know, that while it is not recommended to rise on a point of order in Question Period, it is not against the rules to do so.

Secondly, I want to let the Government House Leader also know that any time that the Leader of the Opposition and the leader on this side of the House, where allegations are going to be made against him or motives are going to be impugned to him, then we will rise immediately at any point.

The third point I would like to make, Mr. Speaker, is this: I propose to the Government House Leader, when you have your next caucus meeting, have a chat with the Premier and if he is willing to fall within the parliamentary language, I guarantee you I will not rise on a point of order during Question Period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on who used unparliamentary language. That is a known fact in this House. I am not going to get down to that level, but I just want to say to the hon. the Opposition House Leader, if he is going to insist that he is not going to abide by the rules - and I quite understand; I do not need any pontification from him what the rules of the House are. I clearly pointed out that it is a precedent in this House, that it is established by precedent, our Standing Orders do allow it but over the last number of years we have been devout in a precedent that it not be done and I simply ask for the Speaker's interpretation, for his clarification, without getting into any wrangle as the Opposition House Leader feels that he is obligated to do every time somebody raises a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will take the point raised by the Government House Leader under advisement.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have been asked to present a petition on behalf of over 450 residents of Newfoundland and Labrador, spanning all across the Province, and indeed several from my own district. The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in legislative session convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador;

WHEREAS the government has requested the Board of Regents to consider a name change of our University; and

WHEREAS Memorial University of Newfoundland is excluded under the Newfoundland & Labrador Act; and

WHEREAS publicly funding universities can be named for a region of a province; and

WHEREAS when other political entities changed, the name of the university within it did not; and

WHEREAS our educational mandate is not limited to this Province; and

WHEREAS the University is on the Island of Newfoundland; and

WHEREAS the first university in other provinces did not reflect the entire name of the province; and

WHEREAS there will be enormous costs to undergo this name change; and

WHEREAS there are enormous disadvantages to not having a geographic identity attached to the University; and

WHEREAS another proposed university in this Province is more suitable to have Labrador added to its name;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to retain the current name, Memorial University of Newfoundland, as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

As I said, Mr. Speaker, this petition has been forwarded to me from over 450 residents of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They find a problem with, I guess, the political correctness of bringing forward a situation where Memorial University of Newfoundland would be changed to Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, there are many reasons that have been heard right across the Province over the past number of months, since this became an issue with the people and the people have put forward this issue and signed their names to the petition because they believe that there is no need for this. The people here, as I said, over 450 of those people believe that there is no need to change the name of Memorial University of Newfoundland to Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to present this petition on behalf of these people today, as we have done with petitions that have come forward here in the House on numerous occasions. It is important that the government take into consideration the views and opinions of all people in the Province as they make any decisions. These 450 people just wanted to make sure that their views are heard here in this hon. House, and I am pleased to present this petition on behalf of these people today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Motion 6, Mr. Speaker. I move first reading of Bill 25, An Act to Amend The Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy Act.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy Act." (Bill 25)

On motion, Bill 25 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. LUSH: Motion 7, Mr. Speaker. I move first reading of Bill 27, An Act to Amend The Forestry Act.

Motion, the hon. the Minister Forest Resources and Agrifoods to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Forestry Act." (Bill 27)

On motion, Bill 27 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 17, Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act. (Bill 26)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act." (Bill 26)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table in the House today amendments to the Teachers' Association Act. These amendments have been requested by the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association is established as a legal entity under the Teachers' Association Act. The act establishes the Association, describes its objectives and functions, provides for an annual meeting and provides for a president, vice-president and the number of members to be elected to the executive committee.

The NLTA, by resolution of its convention, has decided to hold biennial rather than annual meetings. Subsequently, the NLTA has requested that the Teachers' Association Act be amended to give effect to this change. The proposed amendments to the Teachers' Association Act change the requirement to hold annual meetings to a requirement to hold a biennial meeting, provide that the number of members constituting the executive committee will be determined by the bylaws of the Association and provide that the executive elected at the last election should hold office until the next election.

I look forward to this amendment being approved by the House in support of the NLTA.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to offer full support to Bill 26, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act. It is a bill which has been requested by the Association, an Association that I am very proud to say that I have been a part of for something onwards of a quarter of a century. Not only myself, but a number of members in this House also were part of that Teachers' Association.

These changes, again, requested by the Teachers' Association and changes that have been brought about by, I guess, progression with regard to the Association. This Association, I do not know if it is the oldest labour association in the Province, but certainly it is one of the oldest. I think it was only five or six years ago that they celebrated their 100 years as an association. That Association was groundbreaking with regard to - I would say leaders, Mr. Speaker, would be a better word, right through the full century and some years - looking after the welfare of teachers, their spouses and survivors. Of course, not only did they look after the welfare of their members and families of those members, but the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association - a big part of their mission is not only the welfare of their members but the welfare of the children of this Province. They have been given the, I guess, responsibility of delivering education to them.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association, again, they have a very, very long and proud history. Just to take some time to bring up to the present day the reason for these changes. As an association - going back well over 100 years - there were many, many milestones associated with this group. In particular, of course, in the early 1970s, Mr. Speaker, the collective bargaining that they were able to negotiate and bring about a tremendous change in, I guess, the way that teachers were looked upon and dealt with, with regard to, not only pay, but working conditions and so forth.

The turning point for the Association regarding collective bargaining was in the late 1960s, early 1970s. What happened back in those times, certainly it followed through right up until this present day, because many of the teachers, who are still in the system almost thirty years later, began their teaching career in the early 1970s and were very strong in making the life of a teacher and the lives of students better in this Province. Not only collective bargaining and, again, the welfare of the teachers, Mr. Speaker, but teachers down through the hundred-and-some years, that this Association has been into effect, have seen such tremendous changes.

I look at the 1960s and the Warren Commission, I believe in 1967, and again, teachers were a big part of lobbying for changes that were to come about at that particular time. Fast forward up into the 1990s with regard to the Williams Report and, once again, teachers were front and centre in putting forth what they thought were the best interests of the students of this Province. So, they have been involved in making the learning environments, I guess, of this Province better learning environments, the collective bargaining.

Also, I might add, Mr. Speaker, that they have not forgotten their social responsibility either. When we talk about social responsibility, what comes to mind is one of their, I guess, efforts to make the lives of children a little bit easier in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Every year in our schools throughout the Province, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association sponsor a Janeway Day where there is a collection made from the members for different events. All of this money is brought together and given to the Janeway. Again, in support of some of their particular programs.

This Association, Mr. Speaker, has always had the ability to deal with changing times. I guess there is not enough time for me to go back over the 120-some odd years that this Association has been into effect, to highlight how the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association have been able to gauge the times, and not only react to the times, but have the vision to react before changes are necessary. The membership is a strong membership, and the work that they carry out on behalf of the education system in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is astonishing, and I am sure I join with all members of this House in congratulating this Association for their long and proud history.

Of course the Association, I would say, is no stronger than the membership, and throughout this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, the Island and the Labrador portion, there have been branches of this Association is in every nook and cranny of this particular Province. We all know that schools played an important role, not only in education but in the social fabric of this Province, and schools played a key role, especially in many of the rural districts, as a community focal point, as a community centre, as a place where the communities surrounding that school certainly took great pride in the school itself. So the branch network throughout this Province involves - and again just in a general sense - we are looking at something like 6,000 teachers and perhaps as many as 2,000 supply teachers, so somewhere in the vicinity of about 8,000 teachers make up the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association. These are highly-skilled, highly-educated professional who not only give to - as I pointed out, Mr. Speaker - the education system. You only have to look throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and look at the volunteer organizations, and there are many - church related, community related: the Lions, the different groups that are out there - and I would be very much surprised if you did not find teachers involved in these organizations. Teachers not only give during the working hours that schools are open, but in many, many cases you will find that teachers have a leadership role in community life as well, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association support those efforts of teachers over and beyond, I guess, their professional lives.

With that in mind too, Mr. Speaker, I certainly would like to again talk about the members of this Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association who are involved in volunteer activities outside the regular school hours in extracurricular. The extracurricular of the membership of the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association - if you were to look at the hours that teachers spend beyond the classroom, beyond the school, in dealing with students, taking them on outings, coaching them on various sports teams, their drama clubs, their public speaking clubs, I tell you, you could almost match up the number of hours they spend in the classroom with the number of hours that they devote to extracurricular.

There is great pride amongst our teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador, great pride in what they do and how they do it. It is very, very important that, when we are given the opportunity, as we are given right now, when teachers come - in this case, I guess, it is housekeeping to some degree, but it is important that we continue to support our teachers in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we support them in any way possible. They are front line when it comes to opportunity for the children of Newfoundland and Labrador. We must, I say, Mr. Speaker, stand up and do everything we can as legislators, do everything we can as a government, to give these teachers the opportunity not only to do their work within the classroom but also to encourage them to use their skills in extracurricular activities and volunteer activities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

To get back to the bill, Mr. Speaker, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act, I referenced a little earlier, in my comments, that the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association certainly have, in my mind - I may be a little bit biased - but in my mind they seem to have been always on the leading edge of, I guess, social change, labour change. They were involved in, certainly, the fight for collective bargaining in this Province. They have lobbied hard for better working conditions in our schools, because better working conditions for teachers, Mr. Speaker, certainly mean better learning conditions for our students.

Over the last number of years, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association has certainly gone ahead with regard to a change, I guess, Mr. Speaker, in how they do business as an association. This bill reflects the changes that have come about because of changes they have put into their Association. We know their Association is governed by an act of the Legislature, and that is great support for this particular Association, but it wasn't so long ago, Mr. Speaker, that the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association were simply the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. They were one of the first associations that I am aware of that, certainly, changed their name to include the Labrador portion of our Province in their title.

MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) big audience.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know, and I hope that is not indicative, I say to the Government House Leader, of the support that I see on that side for the teachers of our Province.

I see people are starting to trickle back in. I would imagine that, as they continue to listen -

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I know. I certainly would say to the Minister of Education, that any time, Minister, I get a chance to talk about the wonderful teachers in Newfoundland and Labrador, I am going to talk about them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I would say to you that Mr. Speaker is going to have to sit me down, because I have so many good things that I can say about the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador that it would take me more than the twenty minutes that has been given to me.

MS FOOTE: You are not allowed to ask me any questions. Go for it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. Maybe I will incorporate some questions that I am sure the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association may want you to answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I think we will leave it at that, Minister, and I will go back to talking about, once again, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

What I was talking about, before the Government House Leader indicated that the audience on that side is not very much, but I must say the audience on this side of the House are very attentive and certainly, not necessarily sitting on the edge of their seats, but they are listening.

To get back to it, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association was one of the first associations that I know of that certainly - and the resolution at one of their annual general meetings clearly stated that they wanted to make a statement to show that their Association dealt not only with the Island part of it but certainly the whole Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They put, I would imagine it was a unanimous resolution, forward that certainly changed the name of that Association from Newfoundland Teachers' Association to Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

The reason that I would bring up that particular point is, once again, to indicate to the House here how they have, as an association, dealt with changing times and reacted to changing times and have been visionary in many different ways in dealing with what is going on in the world around us. As we all know, change is so prevalent. Of course, without change we are never going to move forward, but reacting to change - because we know change is there, it is inevitable - getting ahead of change and getting out front of change so that there would be a smooth transition, this is where the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association certainly have proven over their history that they have the vision, the capability, of jumping out ahead of things.

With that in mind, again I bring to the attention of the House that it was a couple of years ago that this same Association saw that annual conventions were costly, that annual conventions certainly could be turned from annual to biannual, that by looking at an annual general meeting - I guess every two years - that they could save money but not at the expense, of course, of their Association. These annual general meetings were very, very important to bring the delegates from all around the Province in to a centre, usually St. John's, to discuss the business of that particular Association - the finances of it and the changes that were required. It worked very, very successfully. Again, the Association saw that they could, and many other associations throughout, I guess, North America, were looking at the same thing, but the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association certainly got out front and did that.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the 1990s - and it is the 1990s that I am referring to because, once again, even though, as I pointed out, the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association have been there well over 100 years. We know, when we look at the 1990s, how much change came within a relatively short period of time. The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association did not shirk their responsibility in the 1990s to lobby, to make their opinions known. They did not shirk from their responsibility of standing up and complimenting changes on government's part or, on the other hand, condemning some of the practices that were taking away from the delivery of education to our children.

The 1990s were a difficult period of time for the Association because during the 1990s, especially during the 1990s, not only did we see a decrease in the number of students but naturally what was to follow would be a decrease in the number of teachers as well. The number of teachers during the 1990s have dropped dramatically and this has affected the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' ability, I suppose, to provide the services that are necessary to run an association and to protect the welfare of not only the teachers, which they serve, but certainly the children.

When we look at the 1990s, once again, as I pointed out to you, I guess to try and help the situation of declining number of teachers, to try and help the finances of the Association, that they reacted and reacted in a positive way, and set up their Association so that annual general meetings would be every two years. Not only did they take care of their own particular business but they also, during the 1990s, had to contend with a situation where there were tremendous changes being placed upon their membership to carry the load of bringing about restructuring of the physical plants, the schools, because schools were being closed down and school boards were being shut down - I guess, from twenty-seven of the school boards to the eleven. The Association certainly were left, and sometimes scrambling, to try to maintain - when I say the Association, the members of that Association were left scrambling - and trying to make sure that the level of education, that the quality, Mr. Speaker, of education was as good, if not better, than when we entered the 1990s.

I tell you, Mr. Speaker, it was a struggle; a struggle that still goes on as the Association, once again, tries to put before the government of the day proposals to make sure that our quality of education is one that we can be proud of. I am certainly proud of the work that the teachers are doing and the Association. The Association, in the 1990s, responded, Mr. Speaker, to the Williams Report. They responded, and whether their recommendations were looked at or not is another question but they did respond. They did put forward what they thought was the position of their teachers, to make sure that the quality of education remained at a high.

When the Canning Report came out in 1996, it was the NLTA, again, that certainly supported that report. Not only supported it, because the Canning Report basically dealt with special needs within our particular system. One of the areas which the government put forth as a response to the special needs of children in our system is they came up with a Pathways Program; a Pathways Program that, on paper, is certainly as solid as any program that I know but, Mr. Speaker, the NLTA were front and foremost in indicating that even if you have a program on paper, and that you can do the diagnosis, that you can sit down and say what is best for any individual child in the system, what the NLTA and what teachers and other groups in this Province said is: you must have the resources to make sure that the teachers can do the work, so that they can put forth a program for any child, that is in the best interest of the child.

Through the 1990s the resourcing of the special needs have been put front and foremost for the teachers of this Province, for the NLTA, in making sure that the government realizes, that the Minister of Education realizes, that resourcing properly - it is not enough to say that something should done. It must follow through with a statement that it will be done.

The Pathways, even to this day, there are still difficulties with regard to the implementation of the special needs program. I would be the first to admit that the teachers of this Province have taken that Pathways Program and taken it from a point where it was a difficulty to where many of the children in our Province are getting the best possible programming, but there are still gaps. I am sure that the government and the NLTA will, hopefully, continue to work to bring about - but, Mr. Speaker, it is the NLTA that I compliment for making themselves present, making themselves vocal, and pushing to get the very best; not only for the teachers, because oftentimes we hear the NLTA: You know, that is only for teachers. The NLTA, and I stand firm in saying, that they, too, are not only looking after the welfare of the teachers of this Province but they look after the welfare of the students of this Province and, certainly, that is where it is.

Again, with the Association, Mr. Speaker, I pointed out they have been on the leading edge of making sure that their name was inclusive of every region of this Province; the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association. In difficult times they have tightened up their belts, cancelled their AGMs, and looked at every second year. Also, one of the latest developments - and I assume that is probably why this amendment has come in - was with regard to the selection of their president and vice-president - I do not know but it is the whole executive. They have decided - and it was decided two years ago at the last convention - that they would go to direct democracy in the election of their president and vice-president. I am not sure about the others. I am looking at my colleague there. I am not sure if it is president, vice-president province-wide. The direction is that the NLTA have decided that they are going to go to direct democracy so that every teacher in the Province will be given a vote as to who will lead their Association for two years.

It is an interesting concept that has been floated, not only in labour associations, but also in political parties and indeed, in elections in the various provinces or territories, you hear it come up every so often. I certainly would take my hat off to the NLTA for them moving to this point where they have now really a situation -

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you still active in the NLTA.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would love to be active in the NLTA, but as a teacher on leave my membership is not recognized. Certainly, the NLTA has been very good to me, I say to the minister.

AN HON. MEMBER: It has been good to lots of people.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, exactly. It has been good to lots of people and I see in its future nothing but positive things as they continue to grapple with the demands that have been placed upon them.

To get back to the direct democracy model that they have approached to decide who will be the leaders in their particular Association for two years. I might add, Mr. Speaker, it was not just a: let's do this. This is an issue that has been debated in that Association now for many years. It has been brought to the floor, it has been duly debated and the resolution passed, and it is a situation now where every teacher in this Province can now say that they do have a say in how their Association is being run. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, what a model for the students of our Province when they look to their teachers - that is an aspect that I have not even touched upon yet, is the respect that the teachers garner, not only in the larger society, but with regard to the students. Here you have now an Association, the NLTA, who can literally, when they talk democracy in their classrooms, when they talk about how the young people of this Province should be involved in civics, in elections or understanding the democracy of our country, they can say to the children of this Province that they, in fact, practice the most direct of all democracies, which is, one vote for every member of that particular Association.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association, Mr. Speaker, can be very, very proud of not only where they have come from but where they are going. The challenges for this Association never cease. They never cease because once again there is a spectre - a head of this Association - as we see the out-migration of this Province. It may have slowed but it continues; and not only the out-migration but they have to contend with the decrease in the birth rate as well. They are factors that they have to take into account, and they have to scramble to address these challenges, and the challenges that are forward for them are many and varied.

The thing about it, Mr. Speaker, is that the challenges are almost like coming full circle. I mentioned to you earlier, or I mentioned to the House earlier, that this Association is well over 100 years of age. They are the original pioneers of education in our Province. They came into very, very small communities with small numbers and had to teach, in many cases, in one-room schools on a K to12 - it wasn't K to 12 at the time, it would have been I to XI - and they had to be very, very creative in delivering to these small numbers, in small communities, a broad education.

I would suspect, and I do not know for sure because I do not know the history of the members who are in this House today, that some of the members in this House today were educated in one-room schools in small communities. When they reflect back on those times, because I can guarantee you that even though they might have been in a school of five, ten, fifteen or twenty children, they were given the best education that they could get at that particular time - a broad education. I would suspect there might even be some members in this House who actually taught in those sorts of situations.

Mr. Speaker, to get back, because I am looking at the challenges that the NLTA have on their plate for the future, and I mentioned that it seems like what goes around perhaps comes around because, with the out-migration, with the decrease in the birth rate, with the declining number of students, we are now going from the schools of 200 and 300 to smaller schools of less than twenty children in some of the more isolated, not necessarily isolated but I guess some of the more rural areas, and now we have certainly specialized, or the NLTA have certainly encouraged their teachers to specialize, in the different disciplines of science, social studies, history, language arts, or math. Most of the schools could have at least a staff that reflected the different disciplines, but now we find that the challenge is - and the NLTA are part of this challenge - how can we now offer an education in some of these smaller schools whereby the equality of education will be as good as anything in the Province, and a quality of education that I feel would be in the best interest of the children. Now the NLTA has the challenge of having in their membership, teachers who can go out in those situations and be, what I might consider, an all-purpose teacher, a teacher who can take twenty children and not only look at bringing them through probably thirteen grades but also to be able to use the technology that is available today to bring into that small school a quality of instruction - through them, I guess - that is again comparable to any school in the Province.

These are the challenges not only, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, of the NLTA, but the teachers who make up that organization, and it is most important that we continue to encourage the quality of education that is necessary.

The NLTA have always been part of making sure that they are there to move with the times, to change with the times, to adjust to the times, to be able to do what is best or what is in the best interest of the children. We know that the NLTA have done an exceptional job, and continues to do an exceptional job, and that we certainly can support them in every way that we can in order to bring out the very, very best in our children.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I just heard from my colleague here -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, down at the end - that maybe I am hogging too much time. Again - and I certainly apologize to the House - once I get on my feet and I am talking about teachers, I tell you, it is very difficult to sit me down. My House Leader is probably saying that maybe it is time for me to sit down.

I would like to end off by saying that this bill draws to our attention the history of this great Association. It brings to our attention the changes that have come about in that Association. It certainly should conjure up in our mind the challenges that the teachers of the Twenty-First Century have in delivering a quality education to the children of this Province.

I certainly support not only this bill but I say I support the NLTA to the fullest and I wish them well as they continue on, to take care of our most valuable, valuable, valuable resource, the children of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to rise this afternoon to support this bill and to compliment my friend, the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne, on such a lengthy but interesting presentation; a presentation that emanates from his many years as a primary and elementary principal and also, of course, from his twenty-something years of involvement with the NLTA.

Mr. Speaker, the principle of this bill is supported, I believe, by all members of this House. It is a self-governance issue for the NLTA, but we on this side cannot miss this opportunity to raise a few issues that are of some concern to the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador. We certainly want to say up front that we agree with the change. It is an issue that the NLTA executive and members have requested. We have no interest in deciding whether or not they have their annual conventions every year or every second year. Let them be the group that will make that decision.

However, because we are talking about an education matter it lets us, in this House, address some issues that affect the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador and affect the deliverance of education programs in our schools. Certainly, my colleague just mentioned the need to put more resources in our classrooms. We have identified many needs, many special needs in our schools, but this government has not put the resources in the classrooms that let the teachers be able to do as effective a job as they would like to do in maximizing the learning opportunities for those children who have those special needs.

Mr. Speaker, we know that there are always going to be more needs in the school system than we can address on a daily basis, but certainly we call upon this government to look at what it is doing, to look at what progresses we have really made after the Williams Royal Commission Report.

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Listening to hon. members, Mr. Speaker, this bill is about the governance of the body of the NLTA. It has nothing to do with instruction in the school, Mr. Speaker, nothing in the world. That is so far away from this topic. This is dealing with the governance of the NLTA. It talks about allowing them to have biannual meetings. It has to do with the structure of their Association, nothing to do with the workload of teachers, absolutely nothing. I ask the teachers of this Province, who are observing this, why it is that the Opposition is not giving quick passage to this bill so that we can allow the teachers to carry out the governance of their organization the way that they want to.

I stress, Mr. Speaker, that this is about - I bring to Your Honour's attention the order concerning relevancy. This is not relevant to the bill. It is so remote that it is not even close. We are talking about the governance of the NLTA, of structure. Not about instruction. Not about workload. Nothing associated with that kind of thing and I ask hon. members to get on with speaking to what the bill is all about; what the purpose of this bill is, Mr. Speaker, to structure the governance of the NLTA.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader is trying to leave the impression, I believe - I do not know if he is or not - but it seems to me that we are holding up passage. This is the second speaker on Bill 26. There are nineteen members in the Opposition, all of which have a right to speak to every bill if they so wish to.

Now, the second point that the Government House Leader has brought to the attention of the Chair is the notion of relevance. Second reading of any bill, in terms of dealing with An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act, when we get into a clause-by-clause debate in Committee stage, Mr. Speaker, we will deal with the details clause-by-clause of the bill.

With respect to the points that my hon. colleague from Waterford Valley was making, he is a past member of the NLTA. He is a past teacher. He is a past principal. The changes that are -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: The changes that are reflected in this bill deal exactly with - and I will read it: "The Bill would amend the Teachers' Association Act to make a number of changes to the governance provisions that have been requested by the association."

Mr. Speaker, that gives some latitude, I would say to you, for members to talk about the NLTA, the governance of the NLTA, things that will occur to biennial convention, the welfare of teachers and the -

AN HON. MEMBER: Sure it does.

MR. E. BYRNE: Absolutely, it does. Second reading provides that latitude.

The member was not up speaking about Gull Island. The member was not speaking about the Adoption Act. The member was not speaking about a wharf that was put in Reefs Harbour. The member was speaking strictly about Bill 26, the welfare of teachers, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act. Mr. Speaker, our point of view is that he has every right and he was within the rules and was relevant.

MR. LUSH: A further point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the Government House Leader.

This will be the final interjection.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, on second reading members are to talk about the principle of the bill, and the principle of this bill is dealing with the governance provisions requested by the NLTA. Nothing to do, as I have said before, with instruction. Nothing to do with workload. Why don't hon. members get on with the job? I ask Your Honour to please have hon. members observe the relevancy rule in this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, could I just make one further point to the point of order?

MR. SPEAKER: It will be the final point to the point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

One section of the act - you talk about relevance, and the Government House Leader says we are not relevant. Section 1.(i) part of the act strictly says, "promoting the welfare of the teachers in the province by setting up and administering those subsidiary services that the biennial meeting or convention may decide."

Mr. Speaker, when you are talking about the welfare of teachers, I don't see it in this act where it says the welfare of teachers - this bill talks about a, b, c, d or e. It talks about the welfare of teachers that maybe is ascribed at a biennial convention. I say, Mr. Speaker, that gives the latitude to speak about the welfare of teachers in general principle.

The fact of the matter is, Mr Speaker, this is only the second speaker to Bill 26. The Government House Leader - and finally, let me say this - talk about holding up passage: Is he saying today that this act will be proclaimed today? No. The traditional practice is that when bills go through all of the stages, First Reading, Second Reading, Committee Stage, Third Reading, the Lieutenant-Governor at the closing of the fall session walks in here signs the bills and then sometime after Christmas Cabinet proclaims them. Don't be so silly. Let the member get on and speak to the bill and to the welfare of teachers in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Prior to the Government House Leader making his interjection dealing with relevancy, the Speaker was, in fact, reading Section 48 dealing with the point, dealing with relevancy.

MR. NOEL: You had the section (inaudible) in your own mind.

MR. SPEAKER: If you wish to become the Speaker, Sir.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask members of this hon. House to respect the section dealing with relevancy and to confine their comments to the matters contained in the legislation. Any and all members can speak, of course, to the bill and they will be given their full twenty minutes if they so wish to take them.

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, what we have just witnessed is an attempt by the Government House Leader to try to express to this House his frustration, and, in doing so, he is trying to deny members on this side an opportunity to compliment the teachers of this Province, an opportunity to bring out the points relative to the governance of education in this Province. In clause 2 it says that this bill is about promoting the welfare of teachers in the Province. When we talk about promoting the welfare of teachers, we can't do that without talking about promoting the welfare of our children.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Therefore, when I talk about children, I talk about education, I talk about the fact that many of them go to school hungry and we talk about all the issues surrounding curriculum, because that is talking about the welfare of the children of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, for that member to stand up and say that what I was talking about was irrelevant, what he is saying is that clause 2 of this particular bill means nothing to him. He is saying that this bill is not about promoting the welfare of teachers and promoting our educational system. I suggest to the member, when he stands next time he should make sure he reads clause 2 before he gets on with that drivel that he was getting on with when he was trying to raise a point of order.

Mr. Speaker, I stood here last year and I stand here now, as a member who has participated in education for thirty years. I stand here, as well, as a former administration. I have seen the frustration of teachers when they haven't got the means to do the job that they are required to do. I have seen the frustration of parents when they come to their principal and say: When can my child have the resources that are needed to promote that child's education? I have seen the frustration of a whole community. In fact, just yesterday I stood in this House and complimented the Father John B. Kent Council of the Knights of Columbus at Mary Queen of the World, who are forming a group to get together to help out with literacy in their school. We compliment them.

All that we are talking about here is all about promoting the welfare of teachers, promoting the welfare of our children, promoting what is good for our communities. For that member to stand and say that what I was saying was irrelevant is an insult to the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - is an insult to the parents of Newfoundland and Labrador, and, most of all, is an insult to the young children of this Province. I say to the member, he should be standing on his feet and apologizing to the people of this Province for having wasted ten to twelve minutes of this House's time needlessly this afternoon, to be getting on with such nonsense and such drivel. We can only say to him, perhaps the next time he should read the act before he says what I am saying is irrelevant.

Mr. Speaker, I stood here last year and talked about child poverty, and that is irrelevant to this particular topic. I asked this House last year if they would pass a motion that said we should have standards in this Province whereby we will have a program. I said: We want this Province to adopt social and economic strategies that would reduce child poverty in this Province to a national level, or below, by the year 2005. What did the people over on the other side do? They amended it to what - they said something about reasonable standard. Well, we see where their commitment is on child poverty. We see what they have done, because the report that came out several days ago said: Not only has child poverty not improved in this Province, in fact, child poverty in this Province now is 26.2 per cent. What a shame on this government for the tremendous bad job that they have done. They can find money to go out and spend money $200,000 on ad campaigns to promote the image of the Premier, but they cannot find money to put into our school system. They cannot find money to support our curriculum. They cannot find money to go and do something about poverty. Children go to school hungry everyday, who sit in the school system, and their biggest concern is whether or they are going to have any lunch today.

So, Mr. Speaker, this particular piece of legislation is all about children. This is an opportunity for us on this side of the House to bring to the floor of this House the concerns of parents, concerns of communities, concerns of schools, concerns of teachers, and we want this government to do a better job of listening to these concerns and doing something about it.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side support this bill, but we also want to say that when you have a report issued two days ago which talks about child poverty - let me read what this report says about child poverty. It is entitled: Child poverty drops but not enough. The comments here says: Poverty admits prosperity. Building a Canada for all children. The experts, the people who study this, say now that there are more children living in low-income households than there were in 1989. For example, in Newfoundland, what is the child poverty rate? Twenty-six point two percent. We should be ashamed of ourselves. The highest child poverty rate in all of Canada, and these children go to school everyday and they cannot learn because they have hungry stomachs, they have headaches, and they have all the signs we all get as adults when we are hungry. You expect a child to concentrate on math, English, you expect them to concentrate on being able to learn to read, when their biggest concern is the fact that they did not have much for supper last evening and perhaps did not have any breakfast this morning, and perhaps will not have any lunch today at all. Mr. Speaker, that is what we are talking about here. When this bill talks about putting the welfare of teachers - I remind the Government House Leader that when we talk about teachers we are talking about children, because if the children are not happy in their school setting, the teachers are not happy.

I resent the fact. I have made my comments to the effect of you saying that what I am saying here is irrelevant. Again, it is a wrong. What the children of Newfoundland and Labrador want are not more promises from this government. They want some action. They want to look and say: Why is it that in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador 30,000 children are hungry? Why do 30,000 children live in poverty? For example, why it is that Prince Edward Island has a poverty rate of 13.3 per cent? Little Prince Edward Island, they have a poverty rate of 13.3 per cent. In Prince Edward Island, 13.3 per cent of their children are living in poverty, but in Newfoundland and Labrador 26.2 per cent.

AN HON. MEMBER: Double.

MR. H. HODDER: Double.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite was really interested in what this government has done for low income families in this Province, and people who are considered to be in poverty, he should ask the question directly.

Mr. Speaker, from my position as Minister of Human Resources and Employment, we have actually had a reduction of the number of people on income support from 32,800 children down to 23,000 - a reduction of 30 per cent - but he has never asked.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister to get to his point.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The fact of the matter is that in 1999 we had 31,000 children who were considered to be in poverty. We have had a reduction from 1999 to 2000, of 1,000 children less in poverty.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order, but I would ask the Member for Waterford Valley to confine his comments a little bit more closely to the bill.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, let me read from the release which is only several days old, which says: Provincially, children of Newfoundland and Labrador are worse off with more than one-quarter living below the poverty line. Manitoba was not far behind with 22.1 per cent of the children living in poverty, but Prince Edward Island has a poverty rate of 13.3 per cent.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: I say to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment that he will have an opportunity. If he wants to speak to this matter, he has every opportunity, like anybody else, to stand in his place, but a few moments ago he was more interesting in raising points of order that were not points of order at all. I do not know why he would do that, but his point of order was totally irrelevant.

We, on this side of the House, certainly want to support the intent of this particular piece of legislation, but again we say to this government that when you are talking about improving teachers welfare issues - and I have been to many conventions of the NLTA, many of them over the years. I have been there when all kinds of resolutions get passed, resolutions dealing with children, resolutions dealing with curriculum, resolutions dealing with the welfare of teachers and their salaries. I have attended many, many conventions over thirty years and I know the kinds of resolutions that happen to get passed. I helped write many of them, and I have certainly participated in many of the discussions.

When we talk about the NLTA, we are talking about more than teachers' salaries; we are talking about a comprehensive approach. Certainly, when we discuss the NLTA in this Chamber, I, for one member, would like to have my opportunity to say my part on all of the other issues. This is a bill about the principle of the act and my comments are very, very relevant to part of the discussion.

MR. BARRETT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out for the hon. member that in Question Period today we had the Official Opposition on their feet fighting for a tax reduction for millionaires, and we have the hon. Member for Waterford Valley up talking about children going to school hungry. We want to know where the priorities of the PC Party are in terms of where they want money to be spent. They want tax cuts for millionaires, but we want to put more money to the children in our school system. You are up now talking about child poverty; the Member for Ferryland was up talking about giving a tax cut to millionaires.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation just stood in his place and indicated that I am talking about tax cuts for millionaires. It is not accurate at all. What the minister fails to understand, if he understood the intent of it, is that I am looking for breaks for the thousands of people who spend year after year out in exploration and so on, who are depending on money to invest here in the exploration that can wield a return and drive up investment in our Province. That is positive for the economy of our Province and it is wrong for the minister to give the impression that is the purpose of my question today, because he has completely missed the point. If he wants me to explain it to him, I will certainly do that outside this House and take the necessary time to explain it to him.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before recognizing the Member for Baie Verte, I just want to remind and call members' attention to the bill which we are discussing, which is Bill 26, An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association Act, to make a number of changes to the governance provisions that have been requested by the Association.

The question of relevancy has been raised several times. While the Chair is loath to rule on the issue of relevancy, because if everything that was said in this Chamber was relevant to the issue on the debate you perhaps would not have a lot to say on occasion, I would ask the members to try to confine their comments as closely as possible to the intent and purpose of the bill.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, obviously we will do our best to confine ourselves within the rules and the governance of Parliament. I just want to be clear, and I wonder if you can give me some direction on it. In terms of people speaking on second reading, we have always operated under the assumption and the direction of some of the Standing Orders of the House and also Beauchesne. In Beauchesne, for example, on page 195 it says, Stages of A Bill, and it defines second reading. It says "(2) Second Reading - The stage of second reading is primarily concerned with the principle of a measure. At this stage, debate is not strictly limited to the contents of a bill as other methods of attaining its proposed objective may be considered. This stage is coupled with an Order to commit the bill."

I think it is important for all members. We will try to confine it in terms of what is in the bill, but Committee stage is where we actually have to speak to the very point and to the very clause. I just want to be sure on that, if I may.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Point understood.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly will stay as relevant as I can, but I know, from a number of years in this House on second reading, there is some leeway. I certainly will be talking about teachers and in particular this particular bill, Bill 26, Mr. Speaker, and refer to it time and time again.

I do not plan to take up a lot of time to speak on this. This is something that the NLTA has requested and, simply put, Mr. Speaker, anything that the Association is suggesting for changes in legislation, changes to this act that will help improve their ability to perform their duties, Mr. Speaker, we agree with.

We are certainly going to hold this up. We are certainly not going to vote against it. Mr. Speaker, I do say to all members of the House on both sides, as a former teacher, that any time - and in this particular session, by the way, there will be only two bills referring to teachers in this House, and I am certainly going to take my opportunity and my time in this House, as I have the right, to stand to talk about teachers and how it is related to this bill specifically, and otherwise to expound on some of the ideas and some of the thoughts that I have referring to teachers.

In Bill 26 specifically it talks about the Teachers' Association Act, to make a number of changes to the governance provisions, which the House Leader has referred to, but also, Mr. Speaker, if you want to get specific and look into the bill, we can simply see in subparagraph 4(b)(i), "(i) promoting the welfare of teachers in the province by setting up and administering those subsidiary services that the biennial meeting or convention may decide."

In that section alone, Mr. Speaker, if we can talk about that section alone - or, as a matter of fact, just one line of it - "promoting the welfare of teachers in the province..." Mr. Speaker, that certainly gives us leeway to talk about the profession of teaching, a profession that I am sorry to say in some ways that I never had a long time in because I had just started teaching for some six years before I started this profession of politics. Mr. Speaker, in that short time of a teaching profession I went from a primary school teacher, an elementary school teacher, a high school teacher, and also some substituting when I first began the teaching profession, and before I started this particular profession I had a short time with adult education. So, in my short five or five-and-a-half years with the teaching profession I had a little taste of many aspects of teaching right from primary to adult education. At least it gives you some idea of the different problems involved with the teaching profession and some of the problems they face as a teaching profession.

One that I wanted to mention today, and we just spoke about it a little earlier, just sitting in our seats here, I remember Jean Charest coming to this Province some time back, before his position now. As a matter of fact, he was the national Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party at the time, and we had some conversations. While he was here, one of the meetings we had was with teachers. Mr. Charest, I will never forget the speech that he gave. In that particular speech he talked about how the morale of teachers and, I guess, how motivated they are in the profession is so important. Because, simply put, teachers have to be motivated, they have to be up to their job, because they are dealing with, as many people said here today, our most important resource and that is the children of the Province. I mean that goes for right across Canada.

As he said: Can you imagine if the morale of the teachers is down? Can you imagine? For anybody who has experienced this - I know there are many teachers in this House of Assembly, including the Premier himself, a former teacher, a former member of the NLTA. He knows first-hand, and any teacher will tell you, to walk into a classroom 9 o'clock Monday morning to sometimes thirty to thirty-five pupils, whether it is in Kindergarten or whether it is Grade 12 students, believe me, you have to be motivated and on your toes and ready to go to work because that is what it takes.

In this particular Province right now, I can tell you that the morale of teachers is not real high, not from the teachers I have talked about. They struggle and they put their best foot forward on many occasions, but I can tell you that there are many concerns with the teaching profession. I can tell you that every day that they go to school they are not exactly motivated to their highest level, which they need to be when you are facing the situation of having to motivate our students as they go through school. There are all kinds of problems associated with that.

The teachers, of course, how they handle the whole idea of education reform, and what they went through. I mean, there are many aspects we could deal with today. You cannot help but look at a bill that relates anywhere to the teaching profession, and not make remarks as some of my colleagues already did in the House today, and some more may. They should take the time to speak on the profession that we are dealing with here today, and that is the teachers of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The effect the teachers have on the students and the importance of them being motivated when they walk into a classroom on a Monday morning, Tuesday morning, whatever morning of the week, and how important that is. In Charest's speech, one particular comment he made I will always remember. He said: Remember, as we talk about teachers - and some people talk about good teachers, not so good teachers - we all know that the truth is that when we bring our little boy or little girl to school for the first time at five years old, and walk up to that school building - which many of us, if not all of us, have experienced - bringing your child to school for the first time at Kindergarten, crying, and you pass the hand of your little boy or little girl to that teacher, that is the beginning. That teacher, Madam Speaker, will probably, because of situations at home these days where both parents, in many cases, are working, have more influence on that child in the twelve years that they are inside those walls than we do, as parents, on many occasions. It is just the way that the family is set up these days, where you have one or two working in the family, that teacher is probably going to influence that child from Kindergarten to Grade 12 more than we do as parents. So, we had better make sure they are motivated. We had better make sure they have the resources available to do the best job, because they are dealing with, as many people said today, the most precious resource that we can ever talk about, and that is the children and the students of our Province. Because, if you want to ever recover fully, if this Province is ever to fully recover, it is in education.

If we educate our children the best that we possibly can within the Province, from high school into post-secondary, then that is the engine that is going to drive the entire economy of this Province, because a good educated group of people are the ones who are going to have the good ideas and hopefully, at the end of the day, when they grow up and graduate and go into the workforce, they are the ones who are really going to make the economy recover in this Province.

So, the effect of teachers, if they have the resources, if they are motivated, if they are content in their profession, then they are going to be good teachers, and that reflects on the students also. They end up having good educations. That is when we will see fewer dropouts, fewer problems within our teenagers as they go through school. That is so very important. As Charest said in that particular speech: When you pass the hand of a five-year-old, a Kindergarten, of a little boy or girl, to that teacher on the first day of school, he will affect that child throughout twelve years.

How many of us in this House can reflect back quickly and think about a teacher? Well, I am sure we do think about teachers we did not like so well, or the teacher that pushed us certain us ways. I am sure every single person here, if they took the time to reflect and think about a teacher that has affected them throughout their entire life since school - somebody who has motivated them, kept them in school when we were all not so anxious to stay in school. Maybe it was a coach. I know in my case, it was coaches that I had - I was very involved in sports - who motived you and kept you going through school, because education is just not the 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. It is the lunch hours, it is recess time, it is after school, it is a weekend trip. That is what education is all about - the complete picture of education. That is why it is so important that the teaching profession of this Province and the teachers that are there now have to be motivated. They have to be up to speed on all of the resources that are available so that they can do the best job they can. Without that, we are putting in jeopardy the future of the Province, simply put. If our teachers are motivated, our students get the best education and we can go on from there.

Without getting into all of the points - because you could on education. As the House Leader pointed out earlier, we could talk about it in second reading and continue to talk about - I have a list of fifteen here and I am not going to touch two of them, just today the effect of teachers and so on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: No, I won't take them all, especially if we only have twenty minutes each. I would suggest that if anybody had the time to stand up and make points on this they should do so.

I just wanted to touch on one other aspect of it, and that is: Don't forget also that teachers don't just teach, but in many rural Newfoundland communities especially - and in urban centers, but especially in rural centres - the teaching profession has become a very important part of the community. They are the people who usually head up different volunteer groups. They are the people there to organize different things throughout the community, so they are a very important part of the community. If I have the opportunity, I never pass up the opportunity to talk about the profession of teaching and give it its just cause, its just deserts, that the teaching profession is a big part of our rural communities. It keeps us going in many parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador when teachers get involved not just inside the school walls but outside in our communities.

Madam Speaker, yes, it give us an opportunity when a bill arises concerning the NLTA, that we can stand up and make some points on it. As a matter of fact, when I do get a chance in Committee, where we do get more specific to the bill, which is the normal process of this House, when we do get a change to speak to the specific changes and the amendments here, I will again speak on this particular piece of legislation and I will take my time to make sure we point out the benefits that any changes in legislation give us so that the teaching profession of this Province has a better chance of doing its job better.

I support this bill. We are not going to prolong it. When you get a chance to stand in this House of Assembly, if you want to, to make your point, you can do that. That is why we should not be interrupted with these foolish accusations today of misleading the House or not being relevant to the bill. We will stand when we have our chance to do that, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the time to stand and have just a short few minutes on one of only two bills coming to this Legislature this session on the teaching profession. I am sure that when the next bill comes concerning the teaching profession, I will stand again.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER (M Hodder): The hon. the Minister of Education.

If the minister speaks now she will close the debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Let me start by thanking the members opposite for their contribution to this piece of legislation. I think they have made some very good points. I commend them on recognizing our teachers. We, in fact, have one of the most highly educated workforces in the Province, in the country, in our teachers. I think it is only right to pay tribute to our teachers and the work that they do on behalf of our students. It is important that all of us recognize that it is not an easy job being a teacher, but they do their best, they do it diligently and they work very hard on behalf of all of us.

I thank the members opposite for participating in this debate. Obviously, it is important to all of us to recognize the contribution that our teachers make.

I want to point to something that the Member for Baie Verte said, and that is the importance for teachers to keep up to speed on developments. I have to say that this government recognizes how important that is, which is why we put in $4.4 million annually for professional development for our teachers. I appreciate the member raising that because I let the people of the Province know how much, as a government, we respect that and how much, as a government, we believe in ensuring that our teachers get the professional development that they need.

In fact, Madam Speaker it is important to note as well, when we talk about the difficult job that our teachers have, how important it is for us as a government to make sure that we have the maximum number of teachers in our educational system that we can possibly have, which is why we agreed to leave in 218 extra teaching positions this past year at a cost of $11 million to the provincial Treasury. We did that because it was the right thing to do. We will continue to support our teachers through professional development initiatives, through everything that we can do to ensure that they have the resources they need to do the job that is required of them in the best interest of our teachers.

I am very pleased with the Department of Education, Madam Speaker, that we work very closely with our teachers. We have a very good working relationship with our teachers, but especially with the NLTA. Of course, we have a great deal of respect for the NLTA and for our teachers. I would say most people in the Province know that our Premier, Premier Grimes, in fact, used to be the President of the NLTA. His respect is certainly carried over to all of his ministers, certainly to his Ministers of Education as they take on the role.

We all appreciate what our teachers do. We know how important they are in the lives of our children. We know that in some cases they are the first teacher that some of our children ever encounter. We must always remember, of course, that the first teacher our children have is the parent. We must never lose site of that, which is why we have done so much to promote literacy in the Province and the importance of reading and making sure that our families take part in that initiative. But, what is important for us is to make sure that we do everything we can to make sure our children are ready when they go to school.

One of the initiatives that the government has done to support our teachers is our KinderStart Program, which is one whereby parents and children, children who are starting school for the first time, pre-kindergarten, actually get an opportunity to go to school with their parents eight sessions in a year so that it does not become a traumatic experience for them, and that the teacher does not have to end up trying to encourage, cajole and help the child settle into the class. Hopefully, the parent, working with the teacher through the KinderStart Program has had an opportunity to do that. Trying to make things a little lighter for our teachers wherever we can because we do recognize they have a difficult job to do. This is why, when the NLTA was looking for amendments to the legislation, we thought it was only right and proper to bring the request to the House and to do what they have asked us to do.

I am pleased to be here to conclude with this particular amendment and to move second reading.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend the Teachers' Association Act," read a second time, ordered referred to the Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill 26)

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 12, Madam Speaker. Second reading of a bill, An Act Respecting Student Financial Assistance, Bill 12.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Student Financial Assistance." (Bill 12)

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, today I rise to speak in support of the changes to the Newfoundland and Labrador Student Financial Assistance legislation. As Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, and as a parent, I know the value and the necessity of a good post-secondary education. However, I also know that students often emerge from university and college with high debt loads that force them into default or inhibit their ability to contribute to both the fiscal and social economies of our Province. For instance, many of our students when they graduate from university, our private colleges or our public college, are often very surprised when they go out to work to find that, not only do they have to pay back their student loans, but they are unable to buy a house and a car, and start the life that they know their education has prepared them for.

Our goal as a government, and my personal goal as minister, is to ensure that post-secondary education participation in Newfoundland and Labrador is the highest in the country and that all learners in this Province achieve credentials that will ensure a bright future for themselves and for our Province. As a government we are keenly aware of the debt students, especially from our rural and remote areas, accumulate as they undertake post-secondary studies.

Many people feel that it is the cost of tuition causing most of the debt for our students. That is not, in fact, so. We have one of the lowest tuition rates at our university and our college of anywhere in the country. But, it is for students who have to move away from home. It is the cost of living away from home and all that entails, that drives the student debt up, especially for our rural students.

After considerable consultation and deliberation, we introduced this past spring many new changes to the Student Loans Program that came into effect on August 1 this year to help ensure that post-secondary education is affordable, accessible and accountable. These measures are helping to address the problem of student debt, particularly for those students with high financial need. The plan that we introduced last spring was a balanced plan and reflected the principle that post-secondary education is a shared responsibility among government, students, parents and institutions. As a government, we are very proud of this work in keeping educational costs affordable through tuition freezes, tuition reductions and through programs like interest relief and loan remission.

Some of the major changes to the Student Loans Program include a new program of debt reduction grants that allows students to receive, in the form of a non-repayable grant, up to the full amount of the provincial portion of the Canada Student Loan. This grant will be earned on a semester by semester basis and, upon graduation, for each semester in which a student successfully completes a full course load, a non-repayable grant will be awarded equal to the full amount of their provincial student loan. That is for high need students who meet all of the criteria. Many of them are able now, with the new rules that we have put in place, to meet the criteria. Memorial University are already telling us that many more students are registering for a four and five-course program and are looking like they are going to be eligible, as they complete their program now this next month, for debt reduction grants in the upcoming semester.

As an example: A student who borrows at the maximum level of $275 per week for the total length of his or her degree program will be eligible for almost $15,000 in debt reduction grants. There is nowhere in this country that has a program that when students do the work that they are supposed to do that we acknowledge that for our high needs students and say, we will write off this amount of debt, so that your maximum amount of debt is somewhere just over $22,000, rather than $35,000 to $40,000. This student would only have to pay back his or her Canada Student Loan of $22,440 instead of $37,440. This amounts to a 40 per cent reduction in the student's debt load, which is very significant, Madam Speaker.

We have also introduced measures that recognize that students often work part-time while they are studying. In the past, students told us that because of the student aid rules there was very little incentive to work part-time. So, we are allowing students to keep more of their study period earnings. We now only assess 50 per cent of their study period earnings rather than the previous 80 per cent that we used to collect. This was one of the problem that the students brought forward to us in the consultations that we were doing in previous years and something that we were very pleased to be able to oblige them on.

For example, if a student earns $1,500 in a semester through a part-time job, under the old program they would have been only able to keep $300. Under the new legislation, they can keep $750 without being penalized under the Student Aid Program.

The other substantive change that we introduced in August, 2002, was enhancements to interest relief. For students with low incomes after graduation, the Province will now pay interest on the loan for up to thirty months if a student is unable financially to pay.

Under the previous program, eighteen months of interest relief was available for the first three years of repayment. Under the new program, students can access up to thirty months of interest relief at any time during the repayment period. As an example a student with an income of approximately $25,000 and a student loan payment of $450 a month would be eligible for interest relief.

Madam Speaker, I should say that this now also makes sure that the confusion that was there before between the Canada Student Loan and the Provincial Student Loan Interest Relief Program is eliminated because now both programs are matching. We match now the federal program. It was one of the few things about the federal program that was better than the provincial program.

I wish actually that the federal government, which we are lobbying them strongly to do, would match all of our new Student Loan Program. It would make a huge significant difference to students in this Province.

I am also very proud of the new non-repayable grant for students completing the Early Childhood Education Program. Students in this field have high debt relative to their earnings. We have introduced grants of up to $10,000 to assist graduates of this program depending on how much they borrow. Approximately fifty graduates each year will qualify for this non-repayable grant.

We have also substantially enhanced access to student loan borrowing for medical students who pay higher tuition and borrow for longer periods because of the nature of their program.

Memorial University medical students accessing student loans now receive $200 per week up from the previous $110 per week. That allows our medical students, when they have finished, to not have a high amount of debt to pay back through charter banks. What are students were having to do because the student loan system was unable to loan them the amounts they needed, they had to be going to the chartered banks while they were in med school and in many instances had to be paying interest while they were in school. The were sometimes using the Provincial and Canada Student Loan to pay the interest to the private charter banks. It was a significant amount of debt that they were incurring, and we know that medical students tend to repay their debts, their Canada Student Loan, their Provincial Student Loan debts, in a timely manner.

We were very pleased after the Medical Students' Society came to talk to us about this, that it was one thing we felt that we could do to help medical students. They said to us, look, if you can help us in this way it may help ensure that more of us will stay in the Province after we graduate. So, we do hope that along with the other enhancements that we have in place for medical students, and grants that we have in this Province, that more of these students will be able to stay and practice especially in our rural areas.

With enhancements to the Student Loan Program, additional counselling to students, tuition freeze and reductions, we have demonstrated our commitment to students in our Province.

As you can see, Madam Speaker, we are diligently pursuing the process of making Post-Secondary Education available and affordable to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Of course, a lot of this will be particularly pertinent now as we are moving into the need for a greater number of skilled workers in our Province. More and more we know that over the next few years it is across the country, but in particular here in our Province with the huge resource projects that are on the go with White Rose and Voisey's Bay, and hopefully coming on stream soon, the Lower Churchill, that we are going to need a lot of skilled tradespeople, and these new programs will ensure more of our students will be able to get the education that they need to be able to take up these important jobs.

Today, Madam Speaker, we are here to introduce changes to the student financial assistance legislation that will facilitate the administration of these program changes. This legislation will enable the Province to implement, regulate and administer the new student financial assistance program.

Madam Speaker, the legislation presented today will give greater legislative authority for the implementation of this new, innovative, and much-longed-for program, actually, by the students and the parents of this Province. I am proud to be a champion of this program, as it will increase access to post-secondary education for all of our students by reducing student debt. All residents of this Province are sharing the responsibility for post-secondary education, including government, students, parents and institutions.

This legislation will provide many positive changes to assist students while ensuring the integrity of the program is maintained. Bill 12 establishes the legislative framework for the student financial assistance program as it exists today. It defines the educational institutions for which students can receive student loans. It provides government with the authority to enter into agreements such as the Canada Student Loans Program. It defines the financial institutions that are lenders with the program. It defines students' eligibility to access funding under this program to complete their education. It provides a framework for appealing decisions of the Student Aid Division, and this is very important. We have one of the best appeal systems anywhere in Canada but we also, this year, as a part of our program, even brought in, to make sure that students are not penalized by our new program, a set of extenuating circumstances so that students, particularly students who are single parents, or students who have disabilities, are able to have the same advantages as students who do a full course load even though they are only able to do sometimes two and three courses a term. We have put in provisions for that.

It also contains provisions for penalties for those who give misleading information to obtain a student loan. It gives the Province the authority to collect loans provided to students, and it gives the legislative authority to make regulations governing the program changes I previously highlighted, including enhanced Interest Relief, new Debt Reduction Grants and new targeted grant programs.

We must assure, Madam Speaker, the people of our Province, that government has the appropriate legislative authority to manage this critical program, and that is exactly what this bill is intended to do, and I am proud to stand and support it so that, as we move forward with the implementation of all these new and innovative features in our student financial assistance package, that we will able to give students in this Province the help that they need with the hope that, in the years to come, we will be able to do more as a Province to bring the thresholds down. Right now we are able to help students with very high levels of debt, but as the financial situation improves in this Province we hope we will be able to do a lot more, along with continuing to have the lowest tuition rates at our university, to continue the freeze at the College of the North Atlantic, and to be able, in general, to do all that we can do to help students in our Province.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I certainly welcome the opportunity today to make a few comments on Bill 12, An Act Respecting Student Financial Assistance. Madam Speaker, there is no doubt about it, it is a very important piece of legislation.

How often have we heard, many, many times from all members of the House and in the public domain, concerning student financial assistance. I know at my office, Madam Speaker, since I became involved in politics, one of the biggest issues that we deal with, especially in the fall of the year and early after Christmas, in the winter months, is student financial assistance. We, on this side of the House, are no strangers to having issues brought to us, as an opposition, to raise here in the House or to bring forward in whatever way we can to address the situation with student financial assistance.

Madam Speaker, any way that is found to improve, to assist, to make life easier for students in this Province, we, on this side of the House, certainly agree with it. We have no problem with that, and we certainly agree that with the new act we have before us today there are improvements that will come forward. The minister has touched on a few. We certainly echo the comments in regard to making life easier, as I said, Madam Speaker, for students within the Province. There are always concerns, and different concerns, and, Madam Speaker, we are no strangers on this side of the House to dealing with this.

Certainly one of the major things that we are facing in the Province, and I guess in many places, Madam Speaker, is the fact that we have a high student debt load by many students who find it, as the minister touched on earlier in her remarks - she touched on the fact that people, when they finish their post-secondary education and go forward, trying to get involved in the workplace, to start a home, buy a vehicle, the one thing that hangs around their necks like a noose is the fact of a large student loan. Again, any way to address the problems that come with that noose that is around students' necks, Madam Speaker, we agree with also.

We have seen, over the past couple of years, Madam Speaker, and certainly in the past number of years, a major problem. One of the major problems we find is that, in order for students to pay their debts, in order for students to address that large debt that they have after having a post-secondary education, we find that they have to leave the Province to address those concerns. Madam Speaker, that is unfortunate, that students have to leave our Province because then we lose the people who we have educated, we lose them to different parts of Canada, to different parts of North America and to different parts of the world. It is a sad commentary, Madam Speaker, when many of these students cannot find the employment opportunities within Newfoundland and Labrador, their home in most cases, they cannot find the opportunities here to go to work and to find ways to address their loan and to pay off their debts.

Madam Speaker, we believe things like tuition cuts at Memorial University and post-secondary education institutions is something that is positive. We believe that tuition cuts are positive. We have agreed here over the past couple of years when tuition cuts were brought forward by the government, but we do not agree with taking the dollars that are saved by tuition cuts and then applying them to different services that are at the university, to different things that are available at the different post-secondary institutions, and then causes students to take the dollars they have put in one pocket on a tuition freeze or a tuition cut and then turn around and make them pay it out it out of the other pocket for some other service that is available at the university. We have heard of the situation with the recreation fees at the university. We have heard the situation with other things that have been involved at the university level and the concerns that have been brought forward by students. We ask ourselves: Are all the things that are brought forward by government addressing the concerns that are out there? There is no doubt about it, that some of the new ideas and some of the things that have come forward have addressed some of these concerns.

I received information the other day which concerns me. It concerns a situation where many of our students have to go to food banks. In Newfoundland and Labrador many of our students have to go to food banks. That is a shame. It is a shame on everybody involved that we have students here in Memorial University, in The College of the North Atlantic, in private colleges here in this city and throughout this Province, in other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador, that have to resort to food banks. It is unbelievable, in the year 2002, that we have people in here who are trying to step forward, trying to gain a post-secondary education and are hungry. That is unbelievable. It is hard to believe.

I listened with interest today as my colleague from Waterford Valley put forward that we have a poverty rate in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador of 26.2 per cent. That affects everybody. Now these numbers have to do with children, but, at the same time, I would like to know the numbers. I would like to know the statistics that address students who are in post-secondary education in this Province and have to resort to food banks because they are hungry. We all know if you are hungry you cannot concentrate on your work, you cannot concentrate on your studies. Therefore, you have no choice but to fall down on your grades; and the quality of life is important here. The quality of life for our post-secondary students is very important. For those who have to resort to food banks, it is a very serious matter.

There is no doubt, as I said before, there are some things that have been brought forward in the legislation to address some of - career counselling, as an example. I think anything that, again, helps with career counselling which gives students, at whatever age they are at, to try to decide or try to think about what careers are available to them and to be able to assist them, I think is a positive move. I agree with it wholeheartedly. I think anything that can do that, we agree with. My concern is that I do not think we go far enough. I think we should go one step further. By saying that, I think career counselling should certainly start in high school.

Maybe the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education could confer with the Minister of Education and look at ways of bringing career counselling - well I know there are some cases where we have career fairs in schools. I think it should be part of the curriculum. I think it should be part of the curriculum in our high schools, Madam Speaker. Even further than that, right up through the grades we should have some way of addressing and giving an opportunity for people to look at different opportunities that are out there to seek information, whatever information that is available. We all know in today's technology we have a wealth of information available to us at our fingertips. Thanks be to God, our students at our high school levels will certainly be able to avail of that, through the technology that is there, to be able to avail of the opportunities. I think if we had people to come forward into our schools on a regular basis, whether it is from the school boards, whether it is from the Department of Education themselves, whether it is from private institutions that are out there, come in and do a more thorough career counselling, Madam Speaker, than what I believe is being done today. This is a situation that needs to be addressed, and while it is certainly being looked at and stepped up in the legislation, I think we need to look at it more thoroughly.

I had a case in my own district a few years ago where we had a situation - a young girl was in a private college here in town and had gone through two or three courses. She decided after her third course that she could not continue with the course, and it had to do with veterinarian assistant. We had a situation where the young girl owed over $40,000 in student debt and did not have one - I repeat, Madam Speaker - did not have one employable skill. I had discussed that before with people opposite. Here we have a situation where somebody owes $40,000, who does not have one employable skill for the reason that she could not complete the courses that were involved. Then she finds herself out working in a job, receiving the minimum wage, to try to address a $40,000 debt. She does not have the educational background to step up to the plate to make money than the minimum wage, Madam Speaker. It was impossible for her to address her student debt. Then we got into a situation where that lady was being chased down at her place of work, as I say, working at the minimum wage. She was being chased down at her place of work by a collection agency; calling her at her place of work and really giving her a very difficult time, Madam Speaker, and involving other people in her workplace in the situation where she owed money, trying to address that, trying to work, and trying to deal with a collection agency on the phone.

I believe the department needs to address in some way, shape or form these collection agencies. I find they are calling people at their homes and they are dealing with parents. They are calling people at their place of work, and is certainly causing some major problems. How do you address a $40,000-plus debt making the minimum wage? It certainly needs to be looked at, Madam Speaker.

To do a follow-up on career counselling, we certainly need to look at employment counselling for people who are in post-secondary institutions; to do more than what is being done at the present time, and give opportunities to people and say to people when they come in to do a course - when they come in to sign up to a private college or to sign up to Memorial University, or the College of the North Atlantic - sit down with them and do some type of means test to figure out what those people's capabilities are, because some people sometimes would like to be certain things, and that is understandable, everybody likes to dream. I am sure there are students who are leaving our high schools today, right across this Province, who like to dream and would like to be something. Maybe in some cases they are not capable of doing that. I think we need to step in and step up to the plate once again and say to people, in some cases, that we do not think, for whatever reason, you may not be capable of doing that and therefore, through the employment counselling method - again, employment counselling could start at our high school levels.

As the minister touched on earlier, she talked about the trades that are needed in our Province today. I think we are all aware that for many, many years, over the past decade, the emphasis has been put towards the IT sector. Certainly, over the past couple of years we have seen a shortage of carpenters, we have seen a shortage of plumbers, we have seen a shortage of electricians, we have seen a shortage of all the trades, and I think that the minister and the government need to step up to the plate once again on employment counselling to try to address some of the concerns that are out there. To have students going through post-secondary education - passing and doing quite well in whatever courses they have taken - and to find out that, in some cases, the jobs are not out there, that they are not available, Mr. Speaker, and they have to go back and try some other course, try to get some other trade or whatever the case may be.

We have numerous students who are into our offices and on the phones to us, Mr. Speaker, who say: if I had to know the job opportunities, if I had to know the employment opportunities for this course that are not available, then we should have said to ourselves: maybe I would have taken another course; maybe I would have taken another trade. I think that is important, Mr. Speaker, that we look at this.

Mr. Speaker, the minister touched on debt reduction grants. Again, I think that is a positive move, I say to the minister. Anyway to look at reducing the amount of loans to students and certainly the debt reduction grant is something that is a positive aspect of this piece of legislation and it is something that addresses some of the concerns. It is through the whole program. It is not at the first or middle or the beginning. It carries right through the whole student program and I think it is something that is of a positive nature and certainly something that we agree with on this side.

Mr. Speaker, as we have dealt with before, I think one of the biggest problems that I find, in my district, being from a rural district, is the situation where we have fixed rates of loans in some cases. We have rural students verses urban students. The cost of a student leaving rural Newfoundland and travelling into St. John's or some other part - Corner Brook or whatever the case may be, Mr. Speaker. I think that the cost related to the rural student verses the urban student are so much more, and I think any way that we can address that, Mr. Speaker, being fair to everybody across the board but at the same time addressing that concern, I think, once again, it is a positive thing.

As an idea, Mr. Speaker, if you are in the city or somewhere close to the city or Corner Brook, whatever the case may be or wherever you are, attending a post-secondary institution in the Province and you can go home to your own house each night, in a lot of cases, go home to lunch, go home to supper and go back to the libraries or whatever the case may be, all these things, Mr. Speaker, save a lot of dollars for people who are close to a post-secondary institution. But, if you are from rural Newfoundland and you have to pack up your bags and move to the centres where the institutions are, you will find that the costs go up. You have costs such as groceries; transportation costs, that can be enormous for some students, especially students attending from Labrador and different parts of the Northern Peninsula and across the Province. You have costs of accommodations that are a high cost here in this area, in St. John's, and around the area, and these costs are costs that an urban student does not have to have, for the simple reasons that he has - you know, I am saying not in regard to groceries. We all have to eat. The bottom line is that accommodations and transportation are two major savings for urban students. I think if there is some way of addressing that, if there is some way of certainly looking at the rural student versus the urban student, again, as I said, being fair to everybody, if there is some way of doing that, I think it would be a positive move on behalf of government and for the rural students of this Province.

We look just a Memorial University alone, and I believe the numbers are up around 17,000 attending that institution there, and there are fair amount of those students who travel from rural Newfoundland. There are many people from my own District of Placentia & St. Mary's, who are in post-secondary institutions here in St. John's and throughout the Province. You know, it is a large cost. It is a large cost on people from rural Newfoundland. As most people know, we have seasonal industries in our districts. Certainly in mine it is no different. Seasonal industries such as the fishery or tourism, or whatever the case may be, that their parents are involved in, and trying to assist financially the students when they come in here to school is a major difficulty for many parents in my district. I talk to parents on a continuous basis, and I believe in many cases that parents need to be made more aware of what is happening and what is available: the careers that are available, the employment that is available. I think parents need to be made more aware because, in most cases, parents are the bank and parents are the people who are paying for this, and I think they need to be made more aware. If anything under the new act or any part of the new act addresses those concerns, I think it would be a positive thing, but I think we need to step up once again to the plate. The minister needs to step up to the plate and address some of the concerns that are facing our rural students, because I have stories, Mr. Speaker. I have many, many situations in my own district, of people who are finding it very, very difficult to find enough finances to address their concerns.

I think, once again, we get back to a situation where in Bill 12 we are putting forward an appeal process. Once again, I think that the appeal process brought forward in Bill 12 is an improvement. I think it is something that is positive for the simple reason that, you know, many, many students find very frustrating the situation that exists today, and hopefully the new appeal process - the improvements, I should say, to the appeal process - is something that will be addressed and something that will make life, once again, easier for students who are trying to avail of financial assistance.

Many students find it very difficult. I have a situation in my own district numerous times where they find it very difficult in dealing with student aid in regard to finding someone to talk to. You know, they get bombarded in September and October with loan applications and everything gets - and that is understandable. There are so many staff to deal with so many applications, but it is very difficult for students in that case. I think that any way we can address those concerns, once again, through the appeals process, whether we put a board in place as was mentioned here, or we deal with the Student Aid Office itself, but I think in some way students need to know that they don't have to be held for ransom, in some cases, when they are waiting for a student loan. In some cases is is only because you didn't tick off something on an application or didn't fill in one line of an application. The whole thing is put on the back burner and it takes an immense amount of time to get it dealt with, in some cases through the appeals process. We find people in here, as I said before, especially cases of rural students who have rent commitments, who have transportation commitments, and trying to deal with these is always a concern.

I think parents need to be involved, Madam Speaker, as part of the program at the high school level, maybe, as part of the program at the post-secondary level. Parents need to be involved. I think it would be money well used, Madam Speaker, if we could see something put together, whether it is a brochure or whether it is a campaign. I think it would be a lot better to use $30,000 a week to promote career counselling and employment counselling, and especially involve the parents, than it would be to spent it on, as we have seen over the past seven or eight weeks, the ads about the good things that are happening in Newfoundland and promoting the Premier. Madam Speaker, I think it would be better spent if we could promote what is available under the Student Financial Act, and let people know exactly what is going on.

Madam Speaker, what happens in a lot of cases is that we have students in our Province who find themselves stepping up to the plate and they find, in many, many cases, that they get in over their heads and are forced, in a lot of cases, to social assistance.

I listened today to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment as he talked about the reduction in numbers - and he has it at his fingertips I am sure - the reduction in numbers of people who have found themselves on social assistance over the past years. He stood up and he was so willing to jump to his feet and say: You know, we had this many people as a reduction in social assistance. Madam Speaker, I find it ironic, I say to the minister and to the Minister of Post-Secondary Education, that in 2001, 51 per cent of first-time applicants to social assistance in Newfoundland and Labrador were youth; 51 per cent. That is a sad commentary, I say, 51 per cent of first-time applicants in 2001 for social assistance were youth, Madam Speaker, from age eighteen to age twenty-nine. I mean, is that something that the government is putting out in good things happening in Newfoundland and Labrador ads? I say not, Mr. Speaker, because I think it is a shame that we have 51 per cent of new applicants - I do not see the Minister of Human Resources so quick to jump to his feet and tell us that 51 per cent of new applicants in 2001 for social assistance in this Province were youth between the age of eighteen and twenty-nine. Yes, you should stay in your seat, I say to the minister, and stay put, because he is not jumping up and telling that, Mr. Speaker.

When we look at the students traveling throughout this Province now, from age eighteen to twenty-nine, in most cases I am willing to bet - and I would like to see stats from the Department of Human Resources and Employment. I would like to see stats that tell us, those students between eighteen and twenty-nine who are part of that 51 per cent of people who are on social assistance in 2001, how many of those are on social assistance because of the high student debt load that they are carrying. How many of those 51 per cent are on social assistance because of the high debt load that they are carrying from trying to get a post-secondary education, from trying to improve on their way of life, from trying to push forward and trying to once again improve their situation? The youth caseload was 67,086 people, 24.5 per cent, youth from age eighteen to twenty-nine.

Maybe one of the ministers can stand to their feet later and tell us how many of the new applicants for social assistance in 2001, how many of that 51 per cent of new applicants, how many of them had a heavy student debt load that forced them on to social assistance. I think that when we hear about the good things happening in this Province we do not hear, from this government, those kinds of stats. These are what you call in-camera stats.

I think it is a shame that we have a situation where we have that many people who find that they have no recourse whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, only to go on social assistance. For those that are not on social assistance, where do they go? They are packing their bags and going to other parts of Canada, other parts of North America and other parts of the world to find a way to address their student debt, because the opportunities are not here in this Province for all of those people who have come forward. I think that those are the kinds of things we need to address. Those are the kind of things that we have to stop talking about planning and start doing. I think they are the concerns that people have and are bringing forward. I think we have to look at things like that.

The Member for The Straits & White Bay North stood today and talked about the Premier and the government spending almost $250,000-plus on ads, Mr. Speaker, to promote the Premier, to promote the government, to promote the good things that are happening in Newfoundland, but we do not hear about those situations. We do not hear, because these people are forced on social assistance, they are forced to go to food banks, as I touched on earlier, they are forced to be on their hands and knees trying to get through an appeals process, sometimes waiting for weeks on end to try to address some of the concerns that they have. I think, Mr. Speaker, if we need a new act, we need an act from the minister herself to address some of these concerns, and hopefully through addressing those concerns we can alleviate the pain that many of these students- when I say students, Mr. Speaker, many of the parents and the families, because once a student leaves, I will use again rural Newfoundland as an example, once a student leaves rural Newfoundland to travel away to a post-secondary education, whether it is here in St. John's or somewhere else, it becomes a family issue. Everybody in the family has to contribute to that in some way, shape or form. Everybody has to give a little, take something a little less in their own lives at home in order to promote, in order to assist and in order to do whatever is needed, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that the student that is out to post-secondary education has ample opportunity to get that post-secondary Education so that they can, hopefully, contribute to the family income.

If I could, Mr. Speaker, speak for a few moments on the situation that we find ourselves in, in relation to students that are leaving our Province. I think we have to address that concern. Most of the people that we have seen leave this Province - and we understand fully that because of the cod moratorium in 1992 we had many students and many people that have left the Province. As a matter of fact, over a ten-year period we had around 50,000 people. I would like, Mr. Speaker, to have the numbers on how many of those people were between the age of eighteen and twenty-nine that have left this Province because of the opportunities that are not available for them.

I do not hear the Minister of Human Resources and Employment on his feet telling us about that, Mr. Speaker, and that kind of concerns me, that they are not up giving all of the facts and the figures for this open and transparent and accountable government. I think it is important-

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment, on a point of order.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I just want to clarify, for the record, that I had raised a point of order about some information that the Member for Waterford Valley was talking about. What I had said, Mr. Speaker, was that we have experienced a 30 per cent reduction in the number of children who were on income support since 1997, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to point out that he is talking about percentages and, when you look at percentages, the cause for the percentages is the drop in the population. I have said that we have a 30 per cent drop in a number of children -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to his point quickly.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: - on income support since 1997, but at the same time we only had -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, there was a 30 per cent reduction of children who are on income support since 1997, and the minister is so quick on his feet. That is the second time today the minister stood on his feet with those numbers, Mr. Speaker. Now he is telling us - because there are really no numbers at all, because people have left this Province. People have left this Province, that is why it is down 30 per cent. You are not up telling that, I say to the minister. Why isn't the Minister of Human Employment and Resources up telling why 51 per cent -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I have to remind hon. members that, when they are addressing the House, they should be addressing the House through the Chair, not talking to individual members across the House.

MR. MANNING: A good point, Mr. Speaker, thank you.

Mr. Speaker, I ask why the minister is not so quick on his feet to tell us that in 2001, 51 per cent of first-time applicants to the social assistance caseload in this Province were youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine. How come none of the ministers are telling us that, Mr. Speaker? The reason for that, in most cases, is because of high student debt that you failed to address. That is why the minister is not on his feet telling that, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: He is not up giving the numbers on that.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: For the record, Mr. Speaker, I am not jumping up to what the member is saying because I do not have the statistics here in front of me, but I will at the next sitting of the House. Unlike the member, I did not stand up and vote against research and development money coming to this Province -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: - so people could find and keep work!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member of Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I say in all honesty, I am astounded that the minister does not have these, because these are right from his department. These figures are right from the minister's department, and he does not know the stats; you do not know the stats. I say to the minister, you do not know the stats of your own department. Where do you think I got those? They came right from the Department of Human Resources and Employment.

I repeat again, in case somebody did not understand it, I repeat again, that the minister did not have the stats. Therefore, he should go back to his people in his department and tell them to provide him with the proper stats, Mr. Speaker, because the stats speak for themselves - 51 per cent. I do not think we can repeat it often enough in this House, that 51 per cent of first-time applicants in 2001 who went on social assistance in Newfoundland and Labrador, were students; were youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine.

That is the situation, and these are from the Department of Human Resources and Employment. The minister of that department stands on his feet in this House and says: I do not have the stats. I do not have the stats.

I have gotten them from your department. I say, Mr. Speaker, you should go back and do your homework and know the stats, because maybe the reason you do not have them is because you do not know them in the first place and that is why we have the problem that we have in this Province; because if you knew what -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: The first thing you have to do to address the problem, you have to acknowledge that you have it, Mr. Speaker. You have to acknowledge that you have the problem. Now, if the minister stands up and does not acknowledge that there is a problem with 51 per cent of first-time applicants in 2001 going on social assistance caseloads, between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine, if he does not acknowledge that as a problem, how in the name of God, I say, do we ever address it? That is the question that I ask here today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, we can stand up in this House and talk about it, and we can spend $30,000 a week on ads telling about the good things happening in this Province - and there is no doubt about that, there are some good things happening, but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed. I would like to know five years before that, and five years before that, how many students were on social assistance caseloads.

I have talked to some of these students, and they tell me the reason that they have go to social assistance is because of high student debt, that they could not make the payments. They were in jobs, Mr. Speaker - now you wouldn't mind. They were in jobs in this Province, working, and they got so much harassment at their job site from collection agencies that they more or less had to move on. They were being harassed at their job sites, harassed at their homes, and therefore in some cases they just - you know, we are all human - in some cases they just could not handle the harassment.

The minister is so quick to jump to his feet and tell us about the amount of students, the amount of children, Mr. Speaker. Well, these are children too, in some cases young adults, Mr. Speaker, from ages eighteen to twenty-nine, who are trying to get out there, trying to get a post-secondary education, so they can move ahead, so they can make a difference in this country, in this Province or in this city. These people are out there, Mr. Speaker, and they have a noose around their necks in regard to having a high student debt. Sure, I agree that we have addressed some of those concerns, but the fact is I don't think we are doing enough, Mr. Speaker, I don't think the government is doing enough to address those concerns. There are innovative ways of doing this, Mr. Speaker, and I think that we need some innovation from this government. We don't have it, Mr. Speaker, we don't get it and it is sadly lacking, in ways to address some of the student loans in this Province. I think it needs to be addressed.

Like I said, Mr. Speaker, Bill 12 does address - in my opening remarks I said, Bill 12 does address some of the concerns that are there. Again, Mr. Speaker, there are too many concerns out there. When I stand up in the House today and try to make some points, I find that the Minister of Human Resources and Employment doesn't even acknowledge that we have a problem. It is a sad commentary, when the minister does not even acknowledge that we have a problem.

As people in this House have said before, Mr. Speaker, the numbers speak for themselves, and the numbers are staggering. To say the least, the numbers are staggering, when over half the people in 2001 who had to go to social assistance in this Province were youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine. Mr. Speaker, we have a Minister of Human Resources and Employment responsible for creating opportunities in this Province, who doesn't even know that problem exists. I say, Mr. Speaker, shame on him. I say it is time that we took this seriously, it is time that we looked at the situation in this Province and say, we have a problem.

Don't try to camouflage it, don't try to paint it over, don't try to say there is not a problem. Stand up, I say to the minister, stand up, look at the problem, address it and take it seriously. Because, Mr. Speaker, while we are making steps forward, with Bill 12 and with other pieces of legislation to address some of these concerns, I think it is utterly very, very important that all ministers and the government look at a situation like we have here and try to - I would be very, very happy, Mr. Speaker, if I stood here in a few months time or next year, whatever the case may be, and the Minister of Human Resources and Employment, whoever he or she may be, will be able to stand up and say: Well, in 2001, 51 per cent were forced on social assistance but in 2003 or 2004 or 2005 we are down now to 40 per cent, that we are down to 30 per cent. We work at that collectively together, Mr. Speaker.

I think, if we do not look at a situation like this and ask why the youth, ages eighteen to twenty-nine, are in many cases heading off to food banks right here in this city, Mr. Speaker, going to food banks. Here they are, trying to get a post-secondary education, and going out to a food bank to get their supper, and then the minister jumps up on his feet telling us all the good news.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of concerns here that need to be addressed, and I hope that by bringing those concerns forward here in the House today, myself and my colleagues here on this side of the House, that the minister will wake up and listen to these concerns and address some of them over the next little while so students in this Province, students in Newfoundland and Labrador, have a solid footing and a fair playing field for everybody else in this Province and everybody else in this country when it comes to getting a post-secondary education.

We all know the importance of a post-secondary education. The importance of education to address the economic problems in this Province is utterly important and vitally important to everyone in this House, I am sure. I hope by bringing these concerns today that the ministers do not take them personally, but that they take them - we have raised them, Mr. Speaker, because they are serious issues. We hope that they will be addressed over time and very soon be addressed, Mr. Speaker, and that students here will have a better way of life and an easier way of life to get through and not have that noose hanging around their neck, of a student debt, that is really curtailing their opportunities to move ahead in life, curtailing their opportunity to live a good life in this Province.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I wonder, before I recognize the hon. minister, if I could take this opportunity, in accordance with Section 273.(3) of the Elections Act, 1991, to table the Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the Election Finances for January 1, 2001 to December 31, 2001.

The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am standing now to answer some of the questions and to comment on some of the remarks from the member opposite who just spoke, from Placentia& St. Mary's, and to close debate on this issue.

While the member brought up many concerns, I was very glad that he acknowledged a lot of the really good work that is being done from the perspective of helping students in our Province. There are several programs I would like to mention.

While he talked about lower tuition fees, and he was pleased to see them, then he talked about higher fees, so this would not be helpful to students. We agree with that. We know the university are doing their best to keep fees down. We have lower fees in this Province than almost any university in Canada, but I have to point out to the member that the university is autonomous. It is up to them the fees that they can charge and there is very little that I, as minister, or this government, can do about that. I know we work closely with the university and they do their best to keep fees down. I think he was referring to the new Field House fees. Even those are lower at Memorial University than they are at most universities across the country, especially here in Atlantic Canada.

One of the comments I wanted to speak about was the career counselling piece. The member states that, you know, we need to do career counselling in high school. Not only are we doing it in high school, we start at Grade 3. We have some of the best programs in all of Canada. As a matter of fact, at a ministers' meeting last year, I was very pleased, as was the Minister of Education, when the Minister of Education from Manitoba stood up to speak to us about the great program called The Real Game that was put in place here in our Province by a former teacher - a new program that is being used, that was put in place by Bill Barry, an entrepreneur here in our Province. The Real Game is now all over the world. It is fantastic. The feedback that we are getting from students and teachers and school boards is really, really good. This program is being used all over.

We have a program called Choices, that is in our schools, that many teachers are very pleased with; but I should say that, throughout the Province, different districts are doing different work with career counselling. We are endeavouring, through the Department of Education and my own department, through Youth Services, to try and give students a lot more help in both understanding the student loan system so they know what they are getting into, so parents understand it, and guidance counsellors, but we are doing a lot to make sure that students are making the correct choices.

I understand where the member was coming from when he talked about the young student who was doing veterinary assistant and did not finish, and ended up with $40,000 worth of debt. That is what we are doing every day in my department, through organizations such as the Community Youth Network that this government put in place, to try and help students make wise decisions, to make students know they have to be accountable, that when they are going into any post-secondary education they need to know what they are doing.

One of the most successful pieces of research done anywhere in this country, bar none, is a program that we just put out the results of Career Search 2000. Career Search 2000 is research that we have been doing over the last four years, a program that was brought in 1998. It indicates where graduates are one year after they graduate from post-secondary. They are all interviewed. We had more than 60 per cent of graduates interviewed. So if high school students or anyone considering post-secondary wanted to see what career outcomes are, they can look at the career search document. This document will show them how many students who graduated from such and such a program - whether it be nursing, or welding, or auto-mechanic - were able to get jobs, how much they were getting paid, could they get jobs in this Province, or did they have to leave. Very valuable information. But, over and above that, students, after they read this information, can still make up their mind to follow their heart, to do what they most desire to do. If they want to have the pertinent information and the real facts, Career Search 2000 gives them that information.

I would like to close off by saying that what the member said about in-camera stats, and stats that there are not good things happening in Newfoundland and Labrador, this government does not hide the facts. That is the reason this member was able to have those facts. We agree, that having this many young people who are having to go on social assistance at such a young age is not a good thing. That is why we are working so hard in this government to make sure that when our students finish high school, that there are opportunities for them in post-secondary education. That is why the Department of Human Resources and Employment work very hard on a case by case basis. When we come with the new bill to the House now, some time soon in a matter of days, you will see what we are doing through that department to work individually with students who are on social assistance, or in families that are receiving social assistance, to make sure that they get all the help that we can possibly give them so that they have every chance in life, as we want all of our students to have.

I would like to close by moving second reading.

Thank you very much.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Student Financial Assistance," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill 12)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 19, Mr. Speaker.

I think the Opposition House Leader adjourned the debate on Order 19, Bill 29, An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act No 3.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, this is a piece of legislation that is a companion piece of legislation to legislation that we dealt with in second reading with respect to the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

I understand the Minister of Justice, the Member for Lewisporte, and the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi - there was an issue at hand dealing with this specific piece. It is not a big piece of legislation, admittedly. I guess one of the concerns that was raised in Bill 29 was that the regulations associated with the act could not be published. I think it read at the time - it reads here right now. It could, "... be obtained, without charge..." - of course - "... at the council office." Which meant that anybody, wherever they lived, would have to go to the council office to obtain the regulations. If there was any sort of grievance that had occurred and they were challenging the issue at hand with them personally or respectively. From what I understand - maybe I will just allow the Minister of Justice a moment. I will ask the question just to be clear on it for the record of the House - there is an amendment that we have agreed upon that will be made in committee, whereby if somebody has a grievance associated with the act, or the regulations associated with the passage of this bill, that if they wish to obtain the regulations or whatever is associated with it, that it will be sent to them at no cost, whether it be e-mail, mail or whatever the case may be.

I will give the Minister of Justice just a quick moment to indicate if that is the case, and if so, we will move second reading immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I have had discussions with the Member for Lewisporte and the Leader of the NDP concerning subsection 1, and that regards the publication of the regulations. As it currently reads, there was no requirement for publication. They would be published, but they would not have to necessarily put it in the newspaper so that everybody would have it. That was put there specifically at the request of the municipalities who did not want to incur the cost of having to put it in the newspapers. You are quite right, it is necessary to amend it to allow anyone who does want a copy of it, to get it at no cost to them. We have spoken to the legislative draftsmen and an amendment is being prepared, which we will certainly introduce in committee stage.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With that statement by the Minister of Justice I will move that we proceed to conclusion of second reading and thereafter, by agreement, the House will adjourn.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of the bill.

On motion, a bill, "An Act to Amend The Highway Traffic Act No.3," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill 29)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, before adjournment I just want to advise hon. members that under Standing Order 11, I make the same motion, that on Monday the House not adjourn at 5:30 p.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Monday at 1:30 p.m.