Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Gerald Smith, MHA for Port au Port substitutes for Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I now call this meeting to order. For recording purposes my name is Ralph Wiseman. I am Chair of the Government Services Committee. With me this evening is the Vice-Chair, Mr. Jack Byrne; Mr. John Ottenheimer; Mr. Bob French; Mr. Wally Andersen, filling in for Mr. Gerald Smith; Mr. Anthony Sparrow; and Mr. Doug Oldford should be along shortly.

The purpose of our meeting tonight is to review the estimates of the Department of Government Services and Lands. We also have with us the Clerk and the recorder who is here to record the proceedings. The procedure has been that the minister would have fifteen minutes to introduce himself and the department, and to make his opening comments. The Vice-Chair will respond this evening for fifteen minutes. We will interchange at ten minute intervals. I would ask that the officials identify themselves before they speak for recording purposes. The recorder is a little bit unfamiliar with who is speaking unless you identify yourself.

If you are ready, Mr. Minister, you may proceed with your opening statements.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you. What I will do initially is introduce our officials that we have here. Then I will just go into a brief opening remark and then we will get right into the questions.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I am pleased to be here tonight to present my department's estimates and answer any questions that the committee might have. I will begin by introducing senior staff of the department. To my immediate left is Barb Knight, the Deputy Minister; to her left is Winston Morris, the ADM of Commercial and Corporate Affairs; next to Wins is Wilson Barfoot, Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands. Mike Dwyer is supposed to be here. but he is not here yet. He is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Government Services. We also have Ken Curtis, a budget officer from the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, which is a twinning department for administrative purposes.

I will provide just an overview of the department. Although Government Services and Lands is a relatively new department, it is significant in both size and scope. The GSL is a service orientated arm of government with responsibility for implementation of government's legislative and policy directions with respect to public trust and consumer protection.

The key goals of the department are to provide an efficient and cost effective service to clients, reduce red tape, balance public protection and trust with economic development, and manage our Crown land resources to maximize benefits for the people of our Province. The department has approximately 450 permanent employees who provide a wide range of services throughout the Province. The department's three branches and twelve divisions administer more than eighty-five acts. I have a copy of a number of acts if anybody is interested in looking at those.

I would like briefly to highlight the responsibilities of the three branches of the department. I think perhaps before I do that I should also indicate that my Executive Assistant, Mark Duggan, is here as an observer. I asked if he could be here and it is okay for him to be here.

First of all we will deal with the Government Services branch. The GSL's Government Services branch provides one-stop service to the public and the business community. The branch processes permits, licenses and approvals, and carries out inspections and investigations on behalf of various departments. Through its Motor Vehicle Registration division the branch administers the Highway Traffic Act, provides motor registration services, and enforces regulations relating to the motor carrier industry. The Vital Statistics division of the branch registers vital events such as births, marriages and deaths.

The major objective of the Government Services branch is to decentralize decision making in services out to the regions. At present the branch provides various levels of services from thirteen different locations throughout the Province. In addition to St. John's and Mount Pearl, Grand Falls-Windsor and Corner Brook, where the full government service centre and motor vehicle division services are provided, full MRD services are now available in Clarenville, Labrador City and Conception Bay North, and full GSC services are available in Gander and Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

The Commercial and Corporate Affairs branch promotes economic development by assisting businesses and protecting consumers. It regulates the insurance industry, the trust and loan industry, the credit union industry, the real estate industry, the securities industry, collection agencies, mortgage brokers, automobile dealers, provincial lotteries, and private investigation agencies. The branch also maintains a Registry of Deeds, companies, cooperatives and bill of sales, administers the residential tenancies act, provides assistance to tenants and landlords, regulates employee-sponsored pension plans, and administers the federal government's firearms program.

The branch, in conjunction with the Departments of Mines and Energy, Environment and Labour, and Finance and Treasury Board, is conducting a review of the consumer advocate's gasoline price study. The department is also reviewing the report on the Select Committee of the House on property and casualty insurance. Both these reports propose significant policy and regulatory changes, and it is anticipated that government will act on these reports in the very near future.

The Lands branch helps create a competitive economy by developing programs to ensure that we use wisely the 95 million acres of Crown land that we have in the Province. This branch is comprised of three divisions. The Crown Lands division is responsible for guaranteeing land titles, processing of applications for Crown Lands, enforcing regulations, maintaining a Crown Lands registry, and helping resolve conflicts in use and ownership.

The Surveying and Mapping division is responsible for adopting and promoting geomatic standards and products, undertaking geodetic surveys on which mapping routine land surveys are based and for the production of topographic mapping, and for the registry of place names. The Land Management division is responsible for coordinating the development and implementation of land use management plans, planning and developing cottage lot recreational areas, and other land developments.

In the 1998-99 overall budget, the departments gross expenditure for this fiscal year is $25.5 million, some $2.3 million more than in the previous year. The increase in gross expenditures for the current fiscal year is primarily due to three functions: the additional pay period and the 2 per cent increase in salaries, and the increase in federal funding for the firearms and security service program, which is offset by federal funding of an equivalent amount, and of course government's decision not to proceed to privatize the driver examination program.

If you will recall, government announced plans to privatize driver examinations in the 1997-98 Budget. After the announcement the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees asked government to consider the establishment of a union management committee to identify cost-saving measures which would enable its staff to continue to provide these services, and government agreed with this proposal.

The union management committee was successful in identifying significant savings, and Government Services and Lands was also able to find addition ways to maximize savings within its overall budget. Because of these combined efforts we were able to come up with the solution that was acceptable to both parties, and on this basis we decided not to proceed with privatization.

Revenues for the current fiscal year are estimated to be $5.94 million, which is 2.34 more than in the fiscal year 1997-1998, and the estimated costs in the departmental related revenues is a result of two factors. There was increased land development sales. A major initiative for the department this year and the next two years will be the development and sale of cottage lots as well as other residential and commercial land development. The department expects to raise $1.3 million annually over the next three years in these initiatives - an increase of $1.29 million in federal related revenues associated with the implementation and administration of a new federal firearms act.

While gross expenditures and revenues have increased, it should be noted that the net expenditures for the department for 1998-1999 are on par with last year and are only $45,500 over the 1997-1998 budget.

Just in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, our goals are to provide efficient and cost-effective services to our clients, to reduce red tape, to efficiently and effectively manage our Crown lands, and to balance public protection and trust with economic development. We do not expect any significant impacts on human resources over the next two years, except that which would normally happen through attrition and retirement.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. I am certainly here, along with my officials, to answer questions.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

I will now ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Noel): Subhead 1.1.01, the Minister's Officer.

CHAIR: Okay, I will go to the Vice-Chair now for his opening response. You have fifteen minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have an opening response as such. I will just jump right into the questions, as I normally do.

CHAIR: That's our Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the privatization of the drivers' licence testing - I had a note here to ask you a question on that - you talked about savings. This is a complete about-face. I remember asking questions in the House on this before, just after we became aware that you were considering doing that, and it was a complete about-face not to go ahead with it. You mentioned savings in your opening remarks. Could you elaborate on where the savings were, and were there any extra charges put in place to keep the staff in place?

MR. McLEAN: When we initially, in last year's budget, determined that we would privatize to save some $160,000 last year, and I think it was approximately $246,000 over the next year that we would save - I have to check with my officials on the figures - what we did was, we met with the union - Alan Carter, to be exact, much prior to his illness - and decided to set up a committee, because the union came to us and said: Look, we can show you where you can save.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am asking. What did they show you could save, and were there any extra charges?

MR. McLEAN: That is what I will get to now.

When we set up the committee, the officials had a number of meetings. Mike Dwyer, who was actually on the committee, is not here. They decided they would sit down and work on the figures we had provided as to the number of people we had to provide, the type of service that we were providing for the examinations, the salaries we were paying, and the number of offices we had available in the Province where these examinations were being done. Through all of those different areas there were a few dollars taken out here and a few dollars taken out there, and we have whittled the budget down to a point where the overruns resulted in, I think, upwards of $64,000 rather than the full $160,000. So we were able to mesh that together in a new program that was combined with other programs through Motor Registration. We arrived at a conclusion that it was just as reasonable to do it in-house as to privatize it.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have had a number of complaints personally from individuals, younger people, who have to go in and take their drivers' test. If they fail, they go back and take it again and it is $50. I know one individual who went back six times, and had to pay $50 each time, to past that test. Was that the normal procedure before you decided to keep that program?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that was not really part of the testing part. That was when they went and did their test. They still had to go to the department to do their test. The privatization project was to privatize the testing itself -

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is what I am talking about.

MR. McLEAN: - taking people out and teaching them how to drive.

I think what happened was that we increased the fee to $50 from whatever it was. I cannot remember now. What was the original fee, Barb? Thirty-five dollars? What was it two years ago?

MR. J. BYRNE: Whatever, I don't know.

MR. McLEAN: Thirty-five dollars and we increased it to $50. I think that is where we came into the problem. If somebody failed their test, they went back and had to pay another $50 because they failed. The requirement is $50 a test. That wasn't any different than it was before, only it was $35 before so it wasn't as much.

MR. J. BYRNE: So are you saying now that the program that was in place actually taught people how to drive? Are you saying that the program you are talking about now actually taught people how to drive? Because I was under the impression it was road testing -

MR. McLEAN: No, it was to take people actually out on the road test.

MR. J. BYRNE: Exactly, yes.

MR. McLEAN: On the road test itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, alright.

MR. McLEAN: The proposal we had was to allow people to take it on as a private industry, a part-time job, or whatever they wanted to do, in the different areas of the Province in which we were not offering the service.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

This is a different topic; it deals with the septic tank inspections or what have you. You have made some changes there, of course. You talk about engineers being permitted to do the inspections. You have people in the construction industry, building houses or what have you, take a test and write an exam, or whatever they have there, to become eligible to be able to do the inspections. Do you charge these people for permits for having that authority to do that for the department?

MR. McLEAN: First of all, there are two categories of people the department has set up who are eligible to do septic tank design; not necessarily putting it in the ground, but designing it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know. That is what I am talking about.

MR. McLEAN: Category one is the people who are already eligible without having to do an exam.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Category two is people anywhere at all, any kind of a contractor - or not even a contractor - an individual who feels he can do that, can write an exam and then is eligible to do that.

The second part of issuing a permit to put in a septic tank - was that the question?

MR. J. BYRNE: What I am asking is this: Those people who will now be permitted to do the inspections, will they get a permit from the department to do work? If so, will they have to pay for that permit?

MR. McLEAN: No, they will do the design. Somebody will go out and ask probably two or three people who are eligible to do this design. They will get the design done, it will be approved by the department, and then they will contract - either they themselves will go and do the septic system or (inaudible) contract somebody else.

MR. J. BYRNE: If we had an individual who could do the design - I am thinking about a contractor, now - if he is approved to do the design, and obviously if he is going to build a house for someone in rural Newfoundland he is going to do the installation, more than likely, then he will be able to do the inspection on his own work?

MR. McLEAN: No, our health inspectors will -

MR. J. BYRNE: They do the extremely fine -

MR. McLEAN: The environmental inspectors will do the inspection on the design itself prior to the design being put into the actual septic system going in. Then, he also inspects it before it is covered.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where is the government saving the money here?

MR. McLEAN: We eliminated a whole design division of the Health Inspection branch. We eliminated a division which was strictly doing designs of septic systems. This is only below 1,000 gallons.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know.

With respect to the monies, I remember bringing it up in the House of Assembly, basically I said at the time that it could easily end up costing individuals anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000 to have this work done, and it was pretty well scoffed at. Do you know any of the rates that are being charged by these individuals today to do this work?

MR. McLEAN: I don't know any firm... Barb may know some.

MS KNIGHT: I think the average cost at the moment is around $500. It is anticipated, as more and more people become qualified to do this work, there will be increased competition and that should probably be reduced.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is I think probably good in theory, but I do not think in reality that is the way it is going to be, personally. I think it is going to increase substantially.

MR. McLEAN: You say it is good in theory, but not in practice. Why wouldn't it be?

MR. J. BYRNE: Because, as I said before, especially in rural Newfoundland the cost depending on the system that has to be designed and the type of soil and what have you, that if we have certain people having to go back to do that three or four times, whatever the case maybe, it is going to end up costing them. If you have to have geo-technical people go in to do testing it is going to cost. It is going to average out. Time will tell.

MR. McLEAN: There will be different costs in different area, there is no doubt about that.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the Crown Land, and you referred to that in your opening remarks too, that is another one I have a bit of a pet peeve with, and the policy with respect to converting from leases to grants, any -

MR. McLEAN: New Crown Lands pricing policy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. What are the stats with respect to the revenues that has brought in over the past two years? Because I remember at the time when it was first brought in the figures that were being thrown around were extremely low. I said it at the time. Last year it substantially increased and I am just curious as to what the figures are.

MR. BARFOOT: We processed about 5,500 grant pursuant applications and it has brought in about $11 million over the last two years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eleven million dollars. It was anticipated when it first started it would be $3 million, was it?

MR. BARFOOT: No, that was basically on target.

MR. J. BYRNE: That isn't the figure that was thrown around here.

MR. McLEAN: Six point four million dollars was anticipated the first year, and I think it is around $6.4 million or $6.2 million in the second year. That was based, I think, on a 50 per cent take up on the actual grant pursuant.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, it depends on what the original figure was on take up, but the program proved very successful.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you talking about gross or net now?

MR. BARFOOT: I think we were probably about $1.5 million over the targeted amount.

MR. McLEAN: More people took up on it, Jack, than we anticipated, especially in the first year.

MR. J. BYRNE: They had no choice but to, did they?

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible) a choice. Sure they had a choice.

MR. J. BYRNE: Come on, we know the difference why it was designed that way. Anyway, I am going to move on to departmental salaries.

MR. McLEAN: You are going to start at which one, the very first?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes on page 25. It says Executive and Support Services. Do you have this book? On page 25, there is only one page with respect to -

MR. McLEAN: Alright, go ahead Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just some general questions. The Executive and Support Services, you have $681,000 in Permanent Salary Costs, Other Salary Costs are $82,700. I would like to know what that is for. The number of permanent positions, you have thirteen there. How does that compare to the year before? In Commercial and Corporate Affairs you have seventy-two positions. How does that compare to the year before? Government Services is at 282. How does that compare? Provincial Land Management is at seventy-eight positions. How does that compare to the years before? Are they up or down?

MR. McLEAN: To the year before, to 1997?

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure.

MR. McLEAN: In Executive and Support Services, if you look at the total salaries, $764,000 -

MR. J. BYRNE: Just the numbers of people. Forget the salaries.

MR. McLEAN: I do not think we lost any people at all. I think the numbers are pretty much the same. There may be one or two here and there, up or down, but nothing substantial.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am just curious. On page 43 of the Estimates themselves, under the Minister's Office, section 1.1.01.03. Transportation and Communications went from $88,900 up to $116,900. Why the difference?

MR. McLEAN: The reason for that was the fact that I was a member of the Rural Revitalization Committee which had me travelling a lot more to all the different parts of the Province - we met with all the zonal boards -, and also the fact that I am the minister responsible for Labrador, so it took me to Labrador more often than I would normally have gone.

MR. J. BYRNE: Were you a member of that board before this budget was put together?

MR. McLEAN: No, that only started in... I am not sure when we were put on the board, it may have been part of last year, but not all of last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, because I was wondering why wouldn't it have been budgeted for, but if it is something that came after -

MR. McLEAN: No, it was started throughout the year last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, thank you. On the same page, 1.2.01, Executive Support. You have Transportation and Communications there. It went from $77,600 down to $42,600 and back up to $77,600 for this year. If you only spent $42,600 last year why do you need to go up to $77,600 this year?

MR. McLEAN: The very simple reason for that was my travel out of the Province last year was very limited and very low. I only had I think it was three trips out of the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: This is Executive Support.

MR. McLEAN: Sorry about that. That is the ADMs also. We did not travel out of the Province as much. That is basically (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If you did not travel as much last year, why are you planning on travelling more this year?

MR. McLEAN: We have a number of initiatives on this year that will take us out of the Province, the support staff, more than we did last year. We anticipate about three more trips.

MR. J. BYRNE: In the same section, .05, Professional Services. You had $40,000 in down to $12,600, and up to $40,000 again this year. Could you say why the difference and what professional services we are talking about?

MR. McLEAN: You are asking why it went down. and why it is going up again.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why it is down, why it is back up, and what service are we talking about.

MR. McLEAN: Basically it is outside consultants that we hire at different times for different things.

MR. J. BYRNE: What outside consultants?

MR. McLEAN: What we would have for doing studies, in the review of the department divisions. Also, we had an outside consultant do the study on - I cannot remember what the name of it is now, the professionalization occupations. The study on the -

MR. J. BYRNE: Who were they? I mean, like, I'm not getting (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: It was two ladies, I think, wasn't it? That was one of those.

MR. J. BYRNE: To do what, though?

MR. McLEAN: Christine Hollett was one.

MR. J. BYRNE: To do what?

MR. McLEAN: What was the name of the study?

MR. MORRIS: She was doing a study on the regulation of occupations. Government had initiated a White Paper on that a couple of years ago to determine how we should regulate occupations. We hired a consultant to do a survey of other provinces to see what they would do. She did extensive consultations with various occupations in the Province. I think there was something like fifteen or sixteen focus group sessions she had and consulted with every occupation that either is regulated or wants to be regulated. We had her for about six months, I guess, doing this work and that is where the $12,600 was spent last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: This individual you are speaking about, what would be her background?

MR. MORRIS: She used to work, my understanding was, with government at one time. She is now doing private consulting work, I understand, and she has an economics background. I think a master's, I'm not sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Under Section 2.1.01, Trade Practices and Licensing. Under Professional Services, .05, we had $1,000 budgeted and the government spent $135,000, and it is back down to $1,000 this year. The same question -

MR. McLEAN: Dennis Browne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Dennis Browne. That's for the light and power.

MR. McLEAN: The gas price advocate that we had to do the study. I mentioned in my opening remarks that these studies are being considered now, the recommendations are being considered, and very soon we will have the results of those.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have more.

CHAIR: I will go to Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: (Inaudible) will pass.

CHAIR: Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Minister, we went through a session this morning with the Department of Finance, and something really intriguing struck me and it strikes me again tonight. We have taken the time to run through your budget, and in 1997-1998 your department spent $2,238,700 on information technology. In 1998-1999 - this is the total budget for the department, by the way - we are going to spend another $1,733,500. I would like to know what we spent all the money on in 1997-1998, why are we spending so much money in 1998-1999, and who did we spend the money with?

MR. McLEAN: That is on information technology.

MR. FRENCH: Yes. I went through all of them and added them all up. There is $92,100 in one, $74,400 in another, $102,700, $1,275,900, $92,300, $490,100 and $6,000. That is in 1998-1999. In 1997-1998 they go $124,000, $37,200, $201,700, $1,347,700, $103,600, $343,500 and $81,000.

MR. McLEAN: I won't give you all of them but I will give you the general thrust of it. Number one is the geomatics in our Lands branch. We are trying to bring all the mapping up to date in the Province, get it all digitized, so that we have an accurate account of what land is dealt with in the Province. That is a continuing program. We have a long ways to go with that. We have about 50 per cent done, I believe, so there is a long ways to go with that. We are spending a large amount of money on that.

In Vital Statistics, for example, we are using pre-Confederation processes to do that kind of thing. We have to computerize all that in order to bring it up so that it is a reasonable service provided to the people. What we are trying to do is to get all of these services out into the government service centres, and the only way we are going to be able to do it in a reasonable way is to computerize that, put it on programs and push it out. Of course in order to do that we have to have the staff who are able to put all of this on the computers. We have our deeds and registry. We have all of these banking things that we have to have records of, and what we are trying to do is bring all that into the modern age.

I mean, we are in the 1990s now. We should not be dealing with little flip cards all over the place. We should have all this on a computer program. All of these programs have to have backup programs, and that is where we are spending a lot of money on the IT sector. It is to improve the service that we are offering, basically. There are more specific things that these fellows can probably respond to where they are dealing with it.

MS KNIGHT: One of the major initiatives in the department in IT this current year is in a new system that we are putting in, what is called a tracking information system. The department has a lot of applications, particularly in Motor Vehicle Registration and in the Government Service centres. We are putting in a whole new computerized system that will keep track of applications from the first time they are received by the department and throughout the whole process, so that at any one time we know exactly where a particular application is and there is a continual record of that application throughout all the system.

That requires a major new computer software program. We are hoping we are going to be able to incorporate our lottery system into the same program as well. That is a major increase in one of the initiatives for our IT budget for the year. Actually, our IT budget for this year is pretty much, in terms of total dollars, the same as it was last year, but the kind of initiatives we are undertaking are in some cases new. Because for each year we undertake new projects, they are completed, and then a different project is undertaken. A large part of the IT budget is also just for continuation of current systems that are running, our Crown Lands systems and whatever, our licenses, (inaudible) licenses to buy and use the software that we use.

The major new initiative in IT for the department is this application tracking mechanism which will allow us, hopefully, to also devolve a lot of the decision-making, or more decision-making, to our regional offices; that they would have the same systems on their system as we have here in St. John's, which would allow for quicker decision-making and more effective decision-making.

MR. FRENCH: Who are we spending this money with?

MS KNIGHT: It is either being done in-house through the Information Technology people within the departments, or some of it is contracted through NIS, Newfoundland Information Systems.

MR. FRENCH: So we would not go to public tender on this, am I correct?

MS KNIGHT: Maybe Mr. Dwyer can answer the question in terms of the major (inaudible).

MR. DWYER: A little in excess of $1 million is just for the ongoing day-to-day operations upkeep of the MRD system, with respect to contracts that are held with NIS and have been with NIS over a number of years because they have the database for the system. In excess of that, it is about $1.2 million.

I believe the other three that the deputy just referred to is for -$320,000 is for an application management system which will also allow a lotteries licensing system to be gotten for another $70,000 in corporate commercial affairs, whereas it would have cost in excess of $250,000.

The Application Management System has gone out for a Request for Proposals. That will just be coordinated through NIS, and we are looking for a package to be gotten outside from private industry.

MR. FRENCH: Do I understand you correctly, that we are going or have gone to public tender for that? We are going to do it through what used to be Newfoundland Computer Services?

MR. DWYER: NIS is coordinating the Request for Proposals on our behalf, so they will be providing a coordination role but not a development role.

MR. FRENCH: So we would pay them for that?

MR. DWYER: Yes, and I believe it ties into ongoing financial commitments that have been made to NIS.

MR. FRENCH: That is the one we sold to Newtel, am I correct?

MR. DWYER: I believe so.

MR. FRENCH: On page 51, we went over budget $46,900 in 1997-1998, from $454,700 to $501,600. Was that a new position, Mr. Minister, that would have been created in your department?

MR. McLEAN: From $454,000 to $501,000?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, it is 4.1.03.01, Salaries.

MR. McLEAN: Those positions were temporary staff who were on for part of the year, and some overtime costs.

MR. FRENCH: Can I just ask you what they would have been doing, the temporary staff?

MR. McLEAN: That probably would have been surveyors.

MR. BARFOOT: It was a temporary position in our map and air photo production library. We received a lot of demands for new photographs and things for next year, and we had to hire a temporary person.

As far as overtime is concerned, the overtime is basically an ongoing seasonal thing that happens every year when surveyors are out in the field in the summertime. They have to put in as many hours in a day as they possibly can because it is a limited field season. That is where the overtime comes in.

MR. FRENCH: As well on page 51, under 02, Revenue - Provincial, we budgeted, in 1997-1998, $105,000. It was revised to $85,000, and this year we have gone up again to $114,000. What is the source of that revenue?

MR. McLEAN: Provincial revenue?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. BARFOOT: The bulk of that is from the sale of map products and aerial photographs and things.

MR. FRENCH: That would be to companies, businesses, that type of thing?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, or private individuals going in and looking for (inaudible) and things.

MR. FRENCH: Like the provincial map, the provincial roads map?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Your department, Minister, would not do that would they?

MR. McLEAN: Not road maps, I don't think.

MR. BARFOOT: Not the road maps. We don't do the road maps. That is done through the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. McLEAN: These are basic topographical maps that are over in the Howley Building or in other GSC centres. People come in and they want to look at a map so they can go somewhere and pinpoint a place on the map, that sort of thing. It is just general sales.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: It is not cost-recovery yet. That was when you were with the department. You did not charge enough then. Now we have to get it back. Did you hear that?

WITNESS: What was that?

MR. McLEAN: I said we didn't charge enough for them when you were with the department. Now we have to make up for all of that. That is why we had to increase it.

WITNESS: That is true, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will address that when I get to my next question.

CHAIR: Anyway -

MR. FRENCH: Is my time up?

CHAIR: Yes, unless you have one more question.

MR. FRENCH: I have one more.

On page 48, Support Services, the Salaries were over-budgeted in 1997-1998 by $90,900. That is 3.2.01.01, Salaries. We are over by $90,900. I would just like to know why.

MR. McLEAN: That is 01?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. We went from $908,300 to -

MR. McLEAN: One of the things that happened there was we charged some of the staff off to this particular section when we should have been charging them to another subhead, and we had to make the adjustment. That is why it went up to $999,000 and down to $950,000.

MR. FRENCH: So it would not have been new people hired, or new positions?

MR. McLEAN: No.

MR. FRENCH: I guess, then, the $951,400 is to reflect what it really should be for 1998-1999?

MR. McLEAN: That is it, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. French.

Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: I have just a couple of quick questions.

Under 3.1.01 -

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. ANDERSEN: That would be on page 47, Motor Vehicle Registration. I am just wondering, Minister, the part of charging vehicle registration... I guess the question being asked regarding rural, and in this case Labrador, in my riding, where they only operate their vehicles at -

MR. McLEAN: That is in isolated areas where there is no snow clearing?

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: And people only use their vehicles half the year?

MR. ANDERSEN: Well, less than half the year.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. So you are asking a question of whether or not that is going to be considered?

MR. ANDERSEN: Has your department ever taken into consideration the part of -

MR. McLEAN: Actually, Mike is looking at that right now to get it implemented before the next season. We had hoped to have it in this year but there were some things that had to be worked out in terms of the technical issues that we had to look at. We are certainly looking at that in a very serious way.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

The other question -

MR. FRENCH: Excuse me, could I just interrupt for a moment? Are we talking a reduced fee here, Mr. Minister?

MR. McLEAN: Well, a half-year fee, or whatever you want to call it. The reason it is there is because parts of Coastal Labrador and parts - I think there are three places on the Island where people can only use their cars or trucks for part of the year because snow clearing is not done. So we have been looking at reducing the motor vehicle registration that they pay for their vehicles because of that circumstance. It would be a reduced rate.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay, so it is being considered?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I am quite interested in getting it done, actually.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

The other question, too, is concerning the people from the inspections branch. Quite often there are no people in these communities qualified - don't go shaking your head there, Chairman, - to carry out that inspection. In the past it has been know that the RCMP do check these vehicles. Quite often they need an inspection and there is no one in these communities to do it. As you know yourself - well, for people who do not know it - it costs about $250 to ship a vehicle from any community in my riding to Goose Bay to have it inspected, and $250 to ship it back. I was just wondering if your department has ever considered a -

MR. McLEAN: We actually ran into that problem this past year. The reason we ran into that problem was that the RCMP said they were not going to do the inspections any more, because they normally did it.

MR. J. BYRNE: What inspections?

MR. McLEAN: You inspect a vehicle before it is licensed, after -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: No, when it is sold or relicensed or anything like that, after it reaches a certain age. A lot of the vehicles on the coast are not new vehicles, and when the registration runs out, or they are sold, they require an inspection. The RCMP always did those inspections. They said this year they were not going to do it any more, but we have resolved that issue an a temporary basis. It is not resolved permanently, but we are still working on it.

MR. ANDERSEN: Just one more quick question, 3.2.02. I was looking for inspection services.

Minister, the building codes do come under this department, right?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. ANDERSEN: I had a question under the -

MR. McLEAN: We are responsible for accessibility and -

MR. ANDERSEN: 3.2.01, Permitting and Inspection Services.

CHAIR: Support Services?

MR. ANDERSEN: Page 48.

MR. McLEAN: Okay.

MR. ANDERSEN: Again, requirements - quite often, certain people want to do extensions to buildings. Under the Permitting and Inspection Services, quite often when they go to do an extension, the existing rooms they use quite often have to be completely renovated. I was just wonder if your department, under Permitting and Inspections, had ever considered -

MR. McLEAN: Is that for nursing homes or just general homes?

MR. ANDERSEN: The particular situation I am talking about is in the community of Postville, where there was a lodging house. They had five rooms, and in each room they had two single beds. They have used the building for the past twelve years. They are now putting an extension onto the building and they want to use the old rooms for home care. They were only going to use one bed to a room, but they were told they have to put an extension onto the rooms even though that were taking one bed out. The fact is that they were able to use this as a boarding house for twelve years. I was just wondering if there was anything that could be done that you could put into Permitting and Inspection Services to try and alleviate some of the handicaps.

MR. McLEAN: I will let Mike answer that, but I think, just as a general remark, I guess there is a requirement - is there, Mike? - for certain size rooms for home care. It's more specific than if it's just a boarding home.

MR. DWYER: I can get in touch with you tomorrow and discuss the details of this specific one. In general, anything to do with building accessibility prior to 1981, in which it was built, is exempt from the building accessibility legislation, with the exception of renovations which would be over 50 per cent, or if indeed there is an extension added on where you have changed the principal entrance, in which case the principal entrance has to be accessible up to the existing building.

Now in personal care homes there are requirements by the community health boards and the Department of Health and Community Services. We administer the legislation on their behalf. There are certain requirements with respect to size of rooms, whether or not they are accessible, and whether or not they can be registered as a personal care home. I can get you some general information on that probably tomorrow or the next day and address your specific concerns of this one tomorrow.

MR. ANDERSEN: Sure.

CHAIR: Is that it for you, Mr. Andersen?

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes, Chair.

CHAIR: I was going to ask you are you ready for the question. I thought you were actually lobbying the minister. Okay, no, maybe you were not.

MR. ANDERSEN: Well, you can take it whatever way you want to look at it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen. Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few questions, Mr. Minister. I would like to return to Commercial and Corporate Affairs under Trade Practices and Licensing.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that on, John?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Page 44 in the Estimates. Just to get back to the role of the consumer advocate for a second, in response to Mr. Byrne's question you indicated that the revised amount for 1997-1998 of $135,000 reflected, I think, the costs with respect to the consumer advocate.

MR. McLEAN: The study, yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: His work is ongoing.

MR. McLEAN: No, his work is finished.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: This was with respect to what? Specifically, what was his role exactly in 1997-1998?

MR. McLEAN: He did the gas price study.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Pardon me?

MR. McLEAN: He did the gas price study for the government.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So his work has terminated with your department?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. He came back with a study that I think provided eight recommendations that government could act on. The consumer advocate was appointed based on the representation we were getting from consumers throughout the Province, but mainly in Central Newfoundland. The study focused very much on Central Newfoundland, although Dennis went all over the Province. He even went up to Labrador to get the gas prices and do the assessments of that. This $135,000 was basically the price of that particular study. The support he had, by the way, was that we provided the support staff for him.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Okay, so the officials from your department assisted him in -

MR. McLEAN: One from my department, also one from I think it was Executive Council. Was it Robert? The Department of Mines and Energy was also involved in this with providing certain information to him. This $135,000 was basically for Dennis who was hired outside of the - an independent -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So other work of the consumer advocate is appropriated in other departments?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I think he is doing something with the PUB now, and that is through the Department of Justice, it is not through us. This was particularly to do the gas study.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: That particular role has terminated.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, it has terminated. He was finished as of December 31.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: With respect to trade practices, firstly, I am just curious as to the approximate number of complaints that have been, I guess, put in place by individuals against corporations or businesses. Secondly, what has been the success rate of attempts at mediating these disputes? Maybe Mr. Morris may be the better person, or Ms Knight, who can just give me some overview of the success rate of, I guess, firstly the numbers and then the attempts at pursuing resolutions to the disputes.

MR. MORRIS: We do not have those numbers as to how many complaints we have had. At least, I don't have them here tonight. We do keep statistics but I don't have them.

The success rate, I'm sure we probably don't have an accurate number as to what complaints we get in. How do you define success? A lot of people complain about something. They may not be satisfied in their own mind but the complaint may not have been legitimate in the first place. When I say legitimate, in their own minds it is, but the person they are complaining against may be doing something which is entirely okay. So there is nothing that can be done to satisfy the complainant.

As far as specific numbers go, I could not tell you what they are but I can endeavour to find out and get back to you as to the numbers of complaints which, say, we get in the run of a year and the types of complaints.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is a mandate, I think, of this particular office to attempt to resolve and mediate disputes. Is that correct?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, on a wide variety of areas. If consumers have complaints about anything such as telephone scams, telemarketing calls that they are getting at home that they are not happy about, someone buys a product, say from a door-to-door salesperson, they are not happy with it, they buy an automobile and they are not pleased, a used car and they are not satisfied, people buy a house through real estate and they are not happy - we get all sorts, many types of complaints in the trade practices area. We do then contact the business involved and try to resolve it if we can. Sometimes the consumer is satisfied and sometimes the company does do something and, say, give a refund -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is there a follow up?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, we follow up until we close the file, until we are satisfied and we say to the consumer: I am sorry, there is nothing further we can do. Sometimes there is no other choice but to take the other party to court, small claims or something like that. Sometimes that is our advice: Look, this is as far as we can go from a mediation point of view. If you are still not satisfied, there is a court option. Like I say, it is pretty difficult to say how successful we are in resolving these disputes, but I can certainly get numbers as to how many we have in the run of a year.

MR. McLEAN: We get lots of those, John. I even got one there a while back. A person called me from a coastal community complaining because ducks were running across his lawn. He asked me if there is anything I can do about it.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You referred it to Mr. Morris.

MR. McLEAN: No, I did not, I actually referred it to Carol (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I can imagine there would be a variety of complaints. I don't recall the act that well, but from my recollection of the act there is a provision in the act whereby a business or a corporation can be prosecuted, I believe, pursuant to a section of the act. Is that correct?

MR. MORRIS: Which act?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Trade Practices.

MR. MORRIS: The Trade Practices Act, yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is that role carried out by your office or is that then transferred to the Department of Justice?

MR. MORRIS: We do prosecute people from time to time in conjunction with the Department of Justice. Once we reach that stage we do get a lawyer from the Department of Justice to assist us, for sure. We do prosecutions, maybe a couple a year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would like for somebody to perhaps help me with the Firearms and Securities Services. It appears, in looking at the Estimates, that it is relatively new. We are dealing with the Firearms Control Program. I have to admit I'm not familiar with this, and I wonder if somebody could just educate me. Because obviously we are talking about a significant increase in terms of budgetary costs. It is relatively new and maybe if -

MR. McLEAN: Okay, I will generalize. We have a division that has taken on the responsibility of administering the new Canadian Gun Control Act. With all of the expenditures that are incurred under this particular division there is an in-and-out cost. The federal government is providing us with all of the funds (inaudible) here.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: One hundred per cent?

MR. McLEAN: It is 100 per cent cost recovery. What we have is a division that the director - I think Buck is the director - is going throughout the Province now to hire individuals who will deal with the administration of this particular act in gun registration, gun training and firearms acquisition (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So it is 100 per cent funded by the federal government but 100 per cent administered by the provincial government.

MR. McLEAN: That is right, yes. I think this is a two-year program of transition to get all of this done before this division loses any of this funding. I think it is a two-year funding program, started October 1, 1998, and it will be completed in the year 2003 when all guns must be registered. It is a four-year transition instead of a two year. All of this will be paid for by the federal government, an in-and-out cost. We are totally responsible for the administration.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is an unusual situation, I find, when we talk about Residential Tenancies and the rights of landlords and tenants. I recall from my own days of private practice when landlords would say: There is no sense going to the Residential Tenancies Board because they are all for the tenants, and tenants would say: Forget the Residential Tenancies Board because they favour the landlords. There was always that sort of notion that one got in terms of, I suppose, the satisfaction level of individuals before Residential Tenancies Boards.

I am wondering within the Estimates, the membership of these boards, are they reflected here in the breakdown of the Estimates under Residential Tenancies?

MR. McLEAN: No. As of November 1, 1997 we wiped out all the boards.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Completely.

MR. McLEAN: Completely.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: What would have happened, for example, with matters that had not been concluded? Was there a provision allowing a continuation to continue to at least its conclusion in the outstanding matters?

MR. McLEAN: I would suspect there were. Winston is nodding his head, so yes there were and there are.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I wonder if you could just explain that to me somewhat.

MR. MORRIS: We changed the administration of the Residential Tenancies Act and handling disputes as the minister said as of November 1, 1997. Obviously, part of that time there were a number of cases which had started before that date with the boards, and the boards did clue up those cases to within - normally they do not take that long to finish, they are not lengthy court cases type of thing. Within a few weeks usually the decision is made, a report written up and it is submitted to the court. The boards are no longer involved at all at this stage of the game.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There are no outstanding matters now.

MR. MORRIS: No. Because under the old system tenants had to pay $60 to go down to court and file a complaint, as you probably know. That created a lot of concern amongst tenants in particular. If they were only going after a small security deposit, say of $200, they had to go down and pay $60 and so on. When they became aware that we were changing the system, because we let them know when they did come in, a lot of them deferred making a complaint until after November 1, so they did not have to pay a fee. Because as of November 1 a fee no longer has to be paid for amounts up to the security deposit. Any larger amounts, the fee is only $20 as opposed to $60, what it used to be. I guess for the period September to November 1 there were not a lot of complaints registered anyway. Those that were there were clued up shortly after November 1.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is the role of the office, I guess, essentially now advisory?

MR. MORRIS: No, it is both. We have in fact divided our staff into two groups. One would be what you would call advisory, if someone comes in and has an inquiry because they have some problem with the landlord or the landlord had a problem with their tenant. Then we had to separate two more staff who actually handled the hearings. We actually do the hearings now, and they are arbitrators if you like. They still try to resolve it without a formal hearing, but if a formal hearing is required our staff actually conducts the hearing. It is less intimidating, it is in a smaller room, there is only one person who does the hearing instead of three and it has more consistency with the application too. We found with the boards, where there were so many board members and rotating and that, there was some inconsistency in decisions and what not. It is working out quite well. There are a lot more complaints we are finding than there used to be being registered because of the fees.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is there a right of appeal then from that decision?

MR. MORRIS: The right of appeal is to the court.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: To the Trial Division I (inaudible).

MR. MORRIS: The Trail Division of the court, yes, that is correct.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Ottenheimer. Mr. Sparrow.

MR. SPARROW: No questions at this time.

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to get back to the Information Technology. There was a comment made - I am not sure who made the comment - with respect to the geomatics: 50 per cent of the money in Information Technology is spent on geomatics. I know the department is pretty far reaching and it covers a lot of different areas.

If you are talking geomatics, the deputy minister, Ms Knight, mentioned putting a system in place for tracking motor vehicle registration and what have you, and I can understand that, but with respect to the geographic information systems that are being put in place at the Howley Building on Higgins Line with respect to the digitizing of the mapping, what is actually being done at this point in time with respect to the mapping? Are only the maps being digitized? Because if you look at a true geographic information system, the information that could be available under such a system - you have to have the maps done first, of course, and then you have the various layouts of different information; you have the roads, you have the topographic trees, you have hydrants, you could have pole lines, all different layers type of thing - how far are you planning on going with that, and how long is it going to take before you get a true geographic information system in place?

MR. BARFOOT: The process will be a comprehensive process. We have virtually completed the entire land use atlas at this point in time. We probably have another 5 per cent to be digitized. We are in the process of converting all the maps that municipal affairs have into a digitized format, so we are working on getting 100 per cent coverage of the Province in a digitized format. We then plan to set up our regional offices with proper computerized systems so that all the information is put out into each of our regional offices and the information in Corner Brook will be the same information that is available over at the Howley Building. That would permit our staff to make pretty well instantaneous decisions for a client who is coming in to visit the counter out in Corner Brook, and whether there is a possibility that an application may run into problems because of land use conflicts and all that sort of stuff. All that will be on a computerized network.

MR. J. BYRNE: All this work is being done in-house, is it not?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: There is none of it being put out to private industry at all, the digitizing?

MR. BARFOOT: We did at the end of the year, at the beginning of March, enter into a small contract through NIS for $40,000 for a company to digitize the maps that municipal affairs have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the maps at municipal affairs and the maps at the Howley Building are two different things, because the maps at municipal affairs deal with zoning, mostly, of all the municipalities.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, but we are doing all of that as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

You said you entered into a small contract with NIS. There was a comment made also that the database for the system is being handled by NIS. I would imagine the database for the tracking of the motor registration, that type of thing, with respect to the geomatics for that, is what you are referring to; but if I am not mistaken, NIS, Newfoundland Information Systems Limited I think it is called, is owned largely by Newtel, Sigma and Andersen, and a number of the local companies in and around St. John's that will be involved with computers, this type of work, are large in part owned by Newtel. My concern here is, the work that would be put out by NIS would be put out to their own companies. They are charging government to manage the system, putting work out to their own companies to do the system. Any comments on that?

MR. BARFOOT: Well, I think in this particular case it is not a Newtel company that did this digitization for us.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it a local company?

MR. BARFOOT: It is a local company, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Which one?

MR. BARFOOT: I don't recall the name now. It is a local company that has done mapping for the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Digitizing. It would not be Geodata?

MR. BARFOOT: I am not sure. I can get the answer to that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARFOOT: But on the whole issue of Information Technology, if you look at the Information Technology budget, about 60 per cent of that Information Technology budget is wrapped up in the Motor Vehicle Registration Branch, the (inaudible). It was not 50 per cent for geomatics.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is not?

MR. BARFOOT: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because that was the comment that was made. That is interesting.

I will go back to the Estimates now.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the outside work too, Jack, like aerial photography, that we had to get done, was all contracted. It was not done in-house.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you get into aerial photography, which is used to make the maps, the maps that are existing over there now, the 1:2500 base maps and the 1:5000 and what have you, the topographic maps, a lot of those are available to be digitized and I know there are companies around that do that type of work both in and outside the Province.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the mapping we had was 1972 photography. We needed to upgrade to present times, so we did some more flying.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much money was in the budget for aerial photography for the Province for this year?

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible) doing any this year. We had a lot of it done last year, in the last few years. We had Labrador done in two seasons, that sort of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: The whole of Labrador?

MR. McLEAN: I think it was two seasons, the majority of that was flown, especially Costal Labrador, but those were the oldest maps. They were the old 1972 photography. The interior has been flown relatively recently because of the hype in the exploration.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much money did that cost, to do Labrador in two seasons?

MR. McLEAN: We did that with the Labrador Agreement funding. I think it cost around close to $250,000.

MR. BARFOOT: I think the minister is just referring to the costal communities, (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: It was around $250,000 to do that, I know, because in those days I was administering the Labrador Agreement.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you are having the Province done, and new aerial photography done to produce new maps, what kind of money are you putting in place and what scale of maps are we talking about doing? Because the larger the scale the more photography you need. How much money are we talking about here?

MR. McLEAN: Generally, when you are going to do aerial photography, you will take a grid and get a contract to do a certain amount of aerial photography. Then you bring all those back and do the mapping.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much?

MR. McLEAN: I am not sure what grids we used, but there were a fair amount.

MR. BARFOOT: We are talking about $5 million to update the maps we presently have, and to complete what we do not have done.

MR. J. BYRNE: To update to what period of time?

MR. BARFOOT: That will give us 100 per cent coverage of the Island and of the Labrador portion. That could take a considerable amount of time because there is not a lot of money put into aerial flying on an annual basis.

We are in the process of working with the private sector in developing a geomatic strategy where we would hope we would be able to develop partnerships between the various government departments and the private sector companies that require maps, to try to accelerate this type of activity.

Just to give you an example, we had a request from the Town of Happy Valley - Goose Bay last summer for new mapping for that town, because of the activity that is going on there. We were able to attract eight different partners to help fund that mapping project.

MR. J. BYRNE: Take, for example, if they were going to put in a geomatic system to cover St. John's, Corner Brook, Gander; people like Newfoundland Power, Newfoundland Telephone, different -

MR. BARFOOT: The RCMP -

MR. McLEAN: All the utilities.

MR. BARFOOT: We are working on that and we are trying to accelerate that.

MR. J. BYRNE: To put a popular system in place, the first thing you have to have is the up-to-date mapping.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes. We have actually done the entire Southern Shore in conjunction and partnership with Newfoundland Telephone and Hydro.

MR. J. BYRNE: While I am on that, because it was a number of years ago - probably five or six years ago - I know Newfoundland Telephone was talking to the director of surveying at the Howley Building, to put something together and it did not work out very well. What happened there?

MR. BARFOOT: I do not know, that was before my time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is there anything ongoing with them now?

MR. McLEAN: Was that back when you were working there?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, just after I left it fell apart.

MR. BARFOOT: We did do a partnership with Newfoundland Telephone the summer before last.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, let's get back to the Estimates here now.

CHAIR: You have a minute.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a minute?

Page 45, Residential Tenancies, section 2.1.03.04, Supplies were $9,500 and it is up to $17,000. Why the difference of almost double this year? What kind of supplies are we talking about?

MR. McLEAN: I think that is basically due to the fact that we had to get new copies of the Residential Tenancies Act because of the changes. Actually, we do them up and we sell them to the clients who want to (inaudible). That is just the cost of doing business with the Queen's Printer.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next line, Professional Services, you put in $42,900. It was not even budgeted and it's not budgeted this year. What would that be for?

MR. McLEAN: We had to cover the residential tenancies boards for six months before we disbanded them in late fall.

MR. J. BYRNE: What do you mean you had to cover them?

MR. McLEAN: They were in existence for the first six months of the year.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you didn't have anything budgeted for it.

MR. McLEAN: We anticipated that they were going to be not necessary, but we had to cover them for the first six months of the year. That is where this expenditure came in, $42,900.

MR. J. BYRNE: So what you are telling me is you thought they would be disbanded -

MR. McLEAN: There are no boards now.

MR. J. BYRNE: - before the beginning of the year?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, from the beginning of the year, from April 1 to September 30, I guess, or thereabouts, is when we disbanded the boards. There are no boards now any more. We use the residential tenancies officer.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, why there was no money budgeted is because they thought it would be disbanded before the beginning of the year.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that's right.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 45, Insurance and Pensions, 2.1.04.05, Professional Services, $86,000 budgeted. It went up to $106,000 and back down to $86,000 this year, so that is $20,000 over and above. Why $20,000 over and above, and what were the professional services?

MR. McLEAN: That is the $106,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: There was $26,000 to cover the Province's share of a study into harmonization of insurance regulations in Atlantic Canada, the Atlantic Canada harmonization process. All the other provinces contributed to this particular study and our contribution to it was $26,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 46, Commercial Registrations, 2.1.05.03, Transportation and Communications. There was $92,600 budgeted, $68,600 spent and $92,600 budgeted again. Do you want to make a comment on that?

MR. McLEAN: That is the reduction?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and back up again. You see I have a problem with this.

MR. McLEAN: There was a reduction in postage costs. Basically, that is where the reduction was.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. McLEAN: In the cost of postage.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? Very good.

MR. McLEAN: It varies from year to year depending on how much correspondence we move around.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section. 06, the same subhead, Purchased Services. It was $16,000, went up to $40,000, and down to $18,000. Why so much, and what services? Why a big difference?

MR. McLEAN: I will let Wins will answer that. This is a little more technical.

MR. MORRIS: The Purchased Services section, that increase from $16,000 to $40,000, that was for renovations to the commercial registries, mainly for a new filing system we have there. The companies' registry was very much overcrowded and we had these old five-drawer filing cabinets which were full. You could not put any more in the room. We had files piled on top of those, so we purchased a new filing system which quadrupled the filing space in the same room. That is what the extra expenditure was for.

MR. J. BYRNE: Number 12 there, Information Technology, $230,000. You spent $201,000, and now it's down to $102,000. We had enough talk on information technology, I think.

MR. McLEAN: This was basically for the personal property security system, which is another responsibility we have in the department.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, I have a few questions to ask on the Government Service centre in Clarenville.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. OLDFORD: It's not listed. It's buried in the Estimates. I am still getting some complaints about the Crown Lands division. We are still just taking applications in Clarenville. We send them in to St. John's, then the referrals are sent back out to Clarenville. Of course you have to wait until they come back in. I am still getting complaints from people who say it takes far too long to get these applications approved. Is there any plan to upgrade that system or to make changes in Clarenville to speed up the process?

MR. McLEAN: You want me to tell you when? I will let Wilson answer that, because we have been working with the Clarenville situation for quite a number of months now trying to bring it up to speed.

MR. BARFOOT: Currently we are in the process of putting a second body out in the Crown Lands office in Clarenville. We are also in the process of reviewing all of our systems within the Lands branch itself. There may be a possibility of redirecting some more of our staff from the eastern region office located here in St. John's out to Clarenville. We hope a lot of the problems will be resolved once we get the GIS system up and running. We do have the technology installed in Clarenville, so now it is a matter of time to get the digitized products on line. I would think by September we would have a better Crown Lands service at the Clarenville office.

MR. OLDFORD: The other question relates to the Motor Vehicle Registration. The complaints I am getting there is that during the lunch time period, and when it is busy at certain times during the month, people have to wait long periods of time. If you only have an half an hour off for lunch and it takes you forty-five minutes to get an application processed - and that is no reflection on the staff because they are good staff, and I know most of them personally. There seems to be a lack of staff, especially with counter service. I am wondering is there going to be any move made to correct that situation?

MR. DWYER: We are reviewing the number of transactions that are taking place and when they take place, not only in that office, but all of our MRD offices. What has been happening is we placed in the MRD service full service, I think it was about a year ago or a little less than a year ago. There is a learning curve with new staff, and you can see the number of transactions that they were taking per staff member when they started out, whereas now they have gone up about 50 per cent.

As we monitor the transactions, the peaks and the valleys, we will address that. What we have done in some other places where we do get peaks and valleys, especially during lunch periods, where it is not a large office like Clarenville, we do have the opportunity to call staff back for part-time days, half days and that. We do something very similar up in Labrador City in that situation. We will monitor the situation. It is an opportunity there if we have to use it, that way.

MR. OLDFORD: Good, thank you. The other question I was -

MR. McLEAN: Doug, what is your perception from your perspective as a customer out there? What do you perceive as the problem? Is it more staff to take care of it or -

MR. OLDFORD: Even as Mr. Dwyer suggested, part-time staff or whatever might be a solution to it. The other aggravation that people have is with this thing where you apply to Crown Land for a cabin lot. Once you have paid your application fee - I do not know what it is, $100 now? - if your application is not approved, you don't get your money back. I don't know if the staff knows that it's eventually going to be turned down anyway, because other applications have been turned down before. People have complained to me: If somebody had told me that was a sensitive calving area for caribou then I would not have applied. I get these complaints from time to time: Somebody in the office should have told me and then I would not have lost my $100.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that is one of the areas where we do have some concern, and that is the cross between the GSC staff and the actual Lands staff themselves. There are some cross-ups there at times. I think, Wilson, we have been dealing with a fair number of those cases where applications are accepted when they should not have been accepted. That is where we get most of the complaints and people want to get their money back and that sort of thing. Those are some of the problems. We have been dealing with that and trying to figure out the most appropriate way to handle that kind of a problem. We will get it worked out eventually, although some people are going to (inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: I know there were some applications accepted for the end of Random Island, and even people in the office did not know that there was some rare form of lichen down there growing on a tree or something. We have to protect it. They were not supposed to be taking applications, and of course it upset a lot of people.

MR. BARFOOT: (Inaudible). Once we get the land use atlas on line that should handle a lot of those problems out there in rural Newfoundland.

MR. McLEAN: The mapping is the big thing (inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: I think that is basically it. The other comment I wanted to make, and I do not know how you would deal with this, but there are large tracts of land around the Province that have been designated as agricultural land, and so they split it up into 45 acre lots, or hectares I think they call it now. Yet every person who applies within that agricultural zone has to go through the same process, same referrals, in order to acquire land. I would have thought that once it was zoned agriculture you would not have to go back to the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods with a referral. That seems to be the process we go through every time about every application.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, I would think that is a requirement from Agrifoods to look at the business plan or whatever plan (inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: This is just for the land approval alone, right?

MR. BARFOOT: Just for land approval alone, yes.

MR. OLDFORD: I would have thought that once it was zoned agriculture then it would be suitable for agriculture and we would not have to go through that.

MR. McLEAN: That is something we can take a look at, Wilson. Perhaps there is a way we can speed up that process.

MR. OLDFORD: In a lot of cases the problem is not your department. It is some other department, but you fellows get the blame because you are providing the counter service.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that's right, exactly.

MR. BARFOOT: We are only a facilitator (inaudible). An application comes in and it is referred out to -

MR. McLEAN: It would be in our interest too to see that the process is (inaudible) more efficient. If we are going to be the front-line, if we are going to take the crap for it anyway, we might as well try to figure out how we can do it better. Have other departments come on line and do it better.

MR. OLDFORD: Sure. Other than that, things are working fairly well in the office in Clarenville, but (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: You don't want us to close it down.

AN HON. MEMBER: Normally what we used to do in the past was close it down a few months before an election. Do you want us to do that?

MR. OLDFORD: Anyway, thanks. Those are all the questions I have.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Oldford. Maybe we should take a ten or fifteen minute break. No? Okay, Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Under Government Services, in particular Permitting and Inspection Services, and then more specifically Support Services, page 48. What is the nature of the $1.2 million expenditure under Purchased Services? That is 3.2.01.06?

MR. McLEAN: You are on page 48?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: 3.2.1.01.08?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Purchased Services, .06.

MR. McLEAN: The savings or the change?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The actual Estimates for 1998-1999.

MR. McLEAN: We handed back funds in this particular section for the use because we did not continue with the privatization of the driver examiners. We also transferred funds back into promotional activities.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I'm sorry, I don't understand, Mr. Minister. Are you looking at the right one under Purchased Services, under Support Services?

MR. McLEAN: Number 6, Purchased Services?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: The note I have here is that we have added money back because we did not continue with the privatization of the driver examiners. We had to add some money back because we did not get the full savings that we anticipated at the beginning of the year by privatizing, because we did not privatize.

MR. DWYER: Last year we took all of the office rentals and leases and put them all in one particular account centre, whether they were for MRD, Government Services, or whether they were with the Lands branch. Last year, with the privatization initiative of the driver examinations, there were x number of dollars associated with the privatization because a lot of the places we were leasing. Therefore, they did not show up in the 1997-1998 budget, so when it went back in this year's Estimates it would have raised that figure back up further.

The other thing that increased that figure was that promotional services, and different things like that, where we would get out to trade shows and basically let people know what we do, where they can obtain services and different things, were scattered through various account centres within the GSC, and that was taken and consolidated all in one place.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Where is the department now generally with respect to privatization of its various registries? Is there any assessment being made at the present time, for example, the registry of deeds or the registry (inaudible)?

MR. McLEAN: To privatize?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no move to privatize.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Has the department undertaken any investigation as to the possibility of privatization of registries as we now know them?

MR. McLEAN: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Any questions? Do you want to go on or will I?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I will appoint myself.

WITNESS: I do not know if you can do that, can you? Can you do that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Just a question in response to a comment made with respect to Crown land applications, $115. Have they gone up recently?

MR. DWYER: As far as I know, no.

MR. J. BYRNE: So it is $100 plus the 15 per cent, which is $115.

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was just wondering if it had gone up again.

MR. McLEAN: No, not yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not yet.

WITNESS: We have not had any fee increases in the department this year yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to a question I asked in the House of Assembly yesterday with resect to truckers, and the carrier plates that were dropped two years ago, I asked if there had been any analysis done on that. The problem I had with it was the fact that the large construction companies - I don't know if it came out yesterday with respect to the question - are bidding on work, citing the old regulations whereby they had to pay independent truckers a certain amount of money, which was something like $57 an hour. Now I have been told by a couple of different individuals that they are bidding on the work, getting it, and paying about 60 per cent of that rate, probably $35 per hour. The problem I have with it is that independent truckers have to pay licences, insurances, fuel and what have you, and they just cannot exist on it.

My question to the minister is: Why was this brought in in the first place? Why was it deregulated? Who benefitted from this? It certainly was not independent truckers. It seems to me that it is just - and these people are being basically forced off the road. Do you want to comment on that?

MR. McLEAN: I think it is a Works, Services and Transportation issue, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked the question to the minister yesterday and he said you should answer it. Now you are telling me he should answer it.

MR. McLEAN: I checked it out afterwards.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought so.

MR. McLEAN: It is a Works, Services and Transportation issue. Actually the whole permitting thing, I think, was done through the PUB back in 1994, or something like that.

MR. J. BYRNE: In 1996.

MR. McLEAN: It was done way back, we found out after I went and checked yesterday.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because when I asked the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, he said you should answer it and I though he was wrong. Okay, we will let that one slide.

Under Support Services 3.2.01 - we are after skipping a line, I will finish it anyway.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 48, section 3.2.01.07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $43,700 up to $63,700 spent, and it is back to $43,700 this year. What were those purchases for, and why did it have to be bumped by $20,000?

MR. McLEAN: We purchased furniture for the new office in Conception Bay North, the Harbour Grace office (inaudible) centre.

MR. J. BYRNE: Wouldn't you think, when you are doing a budget each year, that you would allow for any new offices to be opened up? You would think that would come out of the $43,700, would you not?

MR. McLEAN: Well, I guess from year to year it changes. When we decided to go with the Harbour Grace/Carbonear office, it was part of the way through the year and we were able to get it done quicker than we thought we were going to do it in the first place. That is just fluctuation from year to year. That is an in-and-out, one-time cost for the furniture.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 47, Administration, 3.1.01.03, Transportation and Communications had budgeted $382,300. It went up to $443,300. I do not expect you to have the answers here but I just wanted to put it on the record. Maybe it can be -

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 47, 3.1.01, Transportation and Communications. Your department spent $443,300 last year. I do not expect you to have the answers here now, but if someone would note what I am going to ask and maybe supply the answers.

With respect to that subhead, how much of this appropriation was for travel - Transportation and Communication? How many trips were taken? What was the destination of each trip? Who travelled, and for what purposes? And can the minister provide an itemized list of the expenses incurred on each trip?

CHAIR: Could you submit the list that you have made there?

MR. J. BYRNE: I just asked them; they are making notes. Did you get all of that or did I do it too quickly?

MR. McLEAN: You are looking at Transportation and Communications. You want to know what trips were taken.

MR. J. BYRNE: If there were trips taken - I am not sure - how much of this appropriation was for travel? How many trips were taken? What was the destination of each trip? Who travelled, and for what purposes? And an itemized list of the expenses incurred on each trip.

MR. McLEAN: Mike can answer some of that. I do not know about all of it.

MR. DWYER: We can get whatever detailed information you require, if you need it, but most of that, if not the vast majority of it, is for postage. That is MRD with mail-outs and mailings with motor vehicle registration.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Transportation and Communications.

MR. DWYER: Transportation and Communications. There are not a lot of bodies in administration, as you can see. There are not a lot of bodies and there is not a large amount of travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, forget the question then.

With respect to driver examination and vehicle inspection -

CHAIR: Stricken from the record.

MR. J. BYRNE: Stricken.

Under 3.1.02.01, Salaries had budgeted $1,319,500, spent $1,491,200 up to $1,689,000. Does that have anything to do with retaining the driver examination (inaudible)?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, it does.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, Transportation and Communications: $81,900 up to $113,400. Not stamps again, I hope.

MR. DWYER: The same thing. The decrease and increase is due to the driver examination, the inspectors and the people who would be travelling. It is in proportion to the numbers of people who would not have been there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Property, Furnishings and Equipment: $1,600 up to $65,600. Can you explain that one? That is section 07.

MR. McLEAN: That is the purchase of new vehicles.

MR. J. BYRNE: What? Eight hundred and sixty-nine vehicles and you had to purchase two more? How many more?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, but you have to remember that we purchase vehicles all throughout the Province for the GSC centres and for Crown Lands. Those are new vehicles. I have a list here of the years of the vehicles that we had. If you want, I can start reading them off to you.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, that is fine.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the vehicles are pretty old and we had to replace them after so long a time because they were not safe for the highway, and we look after highway safety.

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation some questions on vehicles the other day. I am laughing at something happening on this side, not over there.

Page 47, Licence and Registration Processing, 3.1.03.04. Supplies: $266,400 down to $159,000 back up to $266,400 this year. What would be the supplies there?

MR. McLEAN: Some of it is for licence plates; some of it is for Information Technology; and some of it is also for furniture and equipment.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned licence plates. Do we still have plates made here?

MR. McLEAN: I do not know. Where were the last ones made?

MR. DWYER: They go to tender. I think the last time they were from B.C.; that was the lowest tender.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do we have anyone in Newfoundland and Labrador who can make those plates?

MR. DWYER: I am not sure.

MR. McLEAN: They have an opportunity to bid on it.

WITNESS: One company in my district.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yours?

WITNESS: In my district.

MR. McLEAN: They do have an opportunity to bid on it. It is not only a bid that is put outside of the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 3.1.03.07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment: $2,000 up to $12,200. Why the difference there? What was it for?

MR. McLEAN: It was to replace two fax machines and also some new furniture and equipment related to the office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. On page 48, Support Services, 3.2.01.07 - I don't know if I hit that already - $43,700 up to $63,700.

MR. McLEAN: You asked that just now.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought I did. That is where I jumped ahead of myself.

The next page, 49, Regional Services, Employee Benefits, 3.2.02.02: $11,800 budgeted, $27,800 spent. Why would that be?

MR. McLEAN: There is an increase in workers' compensation costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: That much? Why?

MR. DWYER: That reflects one person in particular with a repetitive strain injury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. DWYER: It reflects one person who would be off on workers' compensation due to a repetitive strain injury, possibly. The difference of $16,000 would be, for example, a Clerk II.

MR. J. BYRNE: Was that money you had paid to the person injured or to hire someone in his place? What are we talking about?

MR. DWYER: It would have been to pay the person injured, to a certain extent. That is what that would have been, to pay the person injured.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought workers' compensation would pay those people.

MR. DWYER: Government is self-insured. I believe we would have paid that out of that particular subhead for self-insurers.

MR. CURTIS: A lot of these costs are for anybody who needs drugs or needs some other services. Rather than their salaries, it would be charged off to this employee benefits account. If somebody needs drugs or some kind of equipment to relieve their injury or relieve their suffering, it gets charged off against this. So it's in addition to the salaries, the other costs associated with the injury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Supplies, .04, $112,000 down to $81,900, back up to $111,000. What supplies would that be?

MR. McLEAN: I think that was something to do with the idea that we were going to purchase a vehicle and we did not do it, or something like that. Was that the case? We did not have to purchase the vehicles that we anticipated.

MS KNIGHT: It was replacement parts for vehicles less due to the purchase of new vehicles. It is difficult to predict on a yearly basis what those replacement costs would be. They were less that year because we had purchased some new vehicles. Whether that is a continuing trend or not, we will have to see how things go this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Under .06, Purchased Services, $112,300 budgeted and $40,800 spent, back up to $95,500. Can anybody explain that?

MS KNIGHT: The explanation there is much the same as the one I just gave you. Again, the vehicle repair costs were down because we were able to purchase five new vehicles at the end of the previous year. Again, while we have much the same amount in there, it is difficult to predict what our repair costs are going to be.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mostly that $112,000 budgeted would have been for vehicle repair and maintenance.

MS KNIGHT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Property, Furnishings and Equipment, .07, $36,700 up to $74,700, doubled, and back down to $36,900.

MS KNIGHT: We purchased two new replacement vehicles, and the funds were transferred into that vote from savings that we achieved elsewhere within the department.

MR. McLEAN: Those are regional services we are talking about there. All the service centres throughout the Province have vehicles.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because to me it is like you are buying vehicles in two different places here.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, there are. There are probably four or five different places we are buying vehicles (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Why wouldn't it just be all under the one heading?

MR. McLEAN: Some under Lands and some under Government Service Centres.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know. You have vehicles bought under Supplies and you have vehicles bought under Property, Furnishings and Equipment. Why wouldn't you have all the vehicles bought under Property, Furnishings and Equipment?

MR. DWYER: The vehicles are bought out of the .07 seven account centres and the repairs are out of the .04 and the .06. The difference between those two account centres is the .04 account centre is for parts.

If we get the work done through Works, Services and Transportation we do not pay the labour cost, we just pay the parts cost. When we bring it into the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and they are unable to do the repairs because of their own workload, or if we require it, for argument's sake, in a week's time and they can't do it for three weeks, they will actually put it out to a garage somewhere and get it done. Repairs are being done in two places: one is for parts, and the other one is for parts and labour.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good, thank you. Vital Statistics Registry, 3.3.01.06, Purchased Services. You had $10,000 up to $18,600, and down to $10,000.

MR. McLEAN: It is an increase in printing costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Printing. Does that printing go out to tender, by the way, any of this stuff, the printing services for something like that?

MR. McLEAN: Does it go out to tender or is it done at the Queen's Printer?

MR. DWYER: It has to go out to tender, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It would have to, wouldn't it? Information Technology, forget that. We are almost to the end. Does anybody else want to ask any questions?

Under Crown Land, page 50, in Salaries, 4.1.01.01, you have $2,040,800 budgeted, $1,841,200 spent, and it is up to $1,987,100 this year. Can you explain that?

MR. McLEAN: I will get Wilson to explain that.

MR. BARFOOT: During 1997-1998 we had two vacant positions that we did not fill and we had three employees who went off on leave without pay. That is the major reason for the decrease. The increase this year is primarily associated with the 2 per cent wage increase.

MR. J. BYRNE: Subsection .04, Supplies. You had $125,600 budgeted, $84,600 spent, up to $125,600 again this year. What would be the supplies?

MR. BARFOOT: One hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars is a normal purchase price for maps and things from the federal government.

MR. J. BYRNE: From the federal government, yes.

MR. BARFOOT: We did not purchase as many maps this year because of our inventory on hand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Subsection 12, Information Technology. You had $12,000 budgeted, you spent $65,000, and it's down to $21,000. Is that the extra money now we are paying NISL for calculations?

MR. BARFOOT: No, that was an actual increase in our budget to buy the new computers for our regional office set-ups. That was a one-time purchase to bring the regional offices on line to be able to handle the GIS.

MR. J. BYRNE: Land Management, 4.1.02.05, Professional Services, no money budgeted. You spent $100,000 and this year you have budgeted $45,000. What was that for now?

MR. BARFOOT: That was basically for the assessment services. When we went to market a value pricing policy two years ago, we retained the services of the municipal assessment agency to do our property appraisals. So in 1997-1998 there were a fairly significant number of appraisals that had to be done because of market value pricing policy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I just butt in for a second here? I am not sure, when you say you had to do so many assessments for Crown lands?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: You had municipal affairs do assessments for Crown lands?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That was for converting from the leases to the grants?

MR. BARFOOT: To the grants, yes. The reason for the decrease this year is that we -

MR. J. BYRNE: Numbers.

MR. BARFOOT: Just the level of activity. We also have our own appraiser on staff now. That money is not additional money. That money was actually transferred from the Crown Land division down into grant management.

MR. J. BYRNE: You have Information Technology, $30,800 down to $20,800 and this year you have $4,000. Anything on that?

MR. BARFOOT: The expenditure decrease this year was associated with less of a need to buy computer hardware. This year's amount is just enough to cover our (inaudible) licences, so we don't have any -

MR. McLEAN: Some of that was for (inaudible) training.

MR. J. BYRNE: For what?

MR. McLEAN: Training. There was less training (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 52, Land Management, you have nothing budgeted for 4.1.05, sections 03, 04, and 06. Transportation and Communications: nothing budgeted, you put in $15,000. Supplies: nothing budgeted, $2,000. Purchased Services: you had in $267,000, spent $82,000 and $300,000 in this year. Can somebody explain that to me, what is going on?

MR. BARFOOT: Under program review we committed to government to accelerate our land development program and we were authorized to hire a number of new staff on a temporary basis to help us with that program. So this would be the transportation, travel costs, associated with people going out in the field, identifying potential development areas and so on and so forth.

Under Purchased Services, the reason for the decline is that the positions we were approved for, we anticipated we were going to have people in place last April. We were unable to get them in place until actually January of this past year.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, are you saying Purchased Services is for staffing?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, contractual.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's it for me. Thank you.

CHAIR: Any more questions?

Okay, I will ask the Clerk to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05, carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: One other thing, the minutes of the last meeting, moved by Mr. Oldford.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I want to thank you, Minister, and your staff, for appearing. You certainly did a good job and we look forward to probably seeing you again after the election.

Could we have a motion to adjourn?

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chair, just before you make the motion, I want to thank the Committee members for asking these questions. Any time you get questions throughout the coming year, don't hesitate to ask.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Yes, go ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) the problem usually, in the House, but thank you for your time.

CHAIR: Well, the Chair certainly recognizes that the questions were answered. In fact, the list of questions was withdrawn because you were so competent in your answers.

We have had the motion to adjourn.

Thank you very much.

On motion, Committee adjourned.