April 28, 1994                                                  SOCIAL SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE


Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Jack Byrne, M.H.A. (St. John's East Extern) substitutes for Lynn Verge, M.H.A. (Humber East).

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Legislative Chamber of Colonial Building.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Gilbert): Order, please!

There are a couple of housekeeping things that the Committee has to do. The first thing I suppose is pass the minutes of the last meeting.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There was an issue raised yesterday which I think that we as a committee should address now so that we won't get involved in it. It hadn't occurred before. As I understand it, these committees are sort of creatures of their own. They can create their own rules sort of thing as to how they operate. I've talked to some of the members about this, and it was raised in another committee yesterday: the replacing of people during a meeting.

Generally, my feeling on it is that - what I was thinking was that we should possibly talk about how this Committee should operate. My feeling was, and it hadn't been raised, was that if a person was going to replace one of the members of the Committee that the person would have completed a form, passed it to the Clerk previous to the meeting, and then he or she was there for the duration of the meeting, because otherwise you could get into a situation that people could be rushing in and handing in their form and changing every five minutes. I leave it open to the Committee now, and I would like their direction as to how we feel we should operate in this.

MR. HARRIS: This is a very good Committee and it is useful to have these kinds of rules. I suppose they should be a little bit precise. You say having the letter. Is this a letter from the caucus Whip?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it is one from the House Leader, you see.

MR. HARRIS: From the House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Indicating that so-and-so is -

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Government House Leader, indicating that someone is replacing someone else on the Committee.

MR. HARRIS: On the Committee. If that is the case, the suggestion is that that person would then be able to vote in the place of the other member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: If they don't have that letter then they can come but they can't vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And they can only speak by leave.

MR. HARRIS: And they can only speak by leave.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Okay. So you are suggesting that perhaps if we are going to have a firm rule on that that the rule should be that the letter should be -

MR. CHAIRMAN: In the hands of the Clerk before the meeting. If someone has to go at 11:00, well alright, if they know that they can then go at 11:00 but they are going to be replaced by someone else.

MR. HARRIS: That is not an 11:00 letter, that is a 9:00 letter -

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is a 9:00 letter.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: If that is the situation and it avoids the kind of rackets which we get into, it would avoid a racket at that point. The rule is there, it is all agreed on. If someone messes up, well then, they take the consequences.

MR. CHAIRMAN: For someone to sit on this Committee, that notice must be given before the meeting comes to order. Then, if someone has to leave at 11:00, you have the 9:00 letter for the 11:00 replacement.

CLERK: And it has to be an original.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It has to be an original, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's call the question.

MR. HARRIS: No fax? Can you have a fax from your House Leader from Naskaupi or something? I don't have that problem, but....

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, that is right. You, Jack, you are (inaudible).

CLERK: (Inaudible) the Government House Leader, not your House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it is the Government House Leader you see that this all (inaudible) each party has to have this one from the Government House Leader.

MR. HARRIS: The Government House Leader?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Oh, not from your own House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Oh, I see.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, will there be a time limit on that? Like, a certain period of time before the meeting, or can you just walk in two minutes before?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the meeting starts, you know at 9:00 o'clock or whenever it is. It's got to be in the hands of the Clerk before it starts.

MR. J. BYRNE: And before the member - is that motion -

MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favour?

AN HON. MEMBER: Aye.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, carried.

Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: First of all I'd like to introduce an individual who is spending the morning with me in a program, I think it's called, Take Your Daughter To Work and since I don't have a daughter or certainly not a daughter of the right age, I have been very kindly accompanied today by a young woman named Sherry Stevenson from St. Theresa's School who's travelling with me this morning. I know the minister also has a daughter and I'm sure she'll introduce her as well.

I have to say as well that I wasn't aware until yesterday afternoon of this meeting scheduled for this morning and had made a commitment to the CBC to do a radio interview along with a couple of other MHAs or a minister and MHA at 9:30 o'clock. So I think it'll probably make sense, even though I was speaking the last time when we broke, that instead of me starting the proceedings today I would suggest that perhaps - I would be asked leave to do this interview - and perhaps you could start with someone else and I would take my turn in the rounds when I came back from the CBC probably around 10 o'clock.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: No, I have to do an interview at 9:30 o'clock at CBC. It's 9:15 now and I have to get there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Well that's up to the Committee. If the Committee wants to go then I'll make my points wherever I have to make them but if you want to cancel the meeting - I understand Mr. Byrne has a few questions and he -

MR. J. BYRNE: I have no problem if it's 10:30 o'clock when you get back, if the committee is still here is all I'm saying but I'm not going to stay and wait for anybody.

MR. HARRIS: What I was suggesting to the Chair was that even though I have the floor I'm prepared to give it over to someone else because I had made a commitment to another organization. I wasn't consulted on this meeting this morning, I don't know if you were. I was advised of it yesterday afternoon and I've made myself available thus far. I have to meet this other commitment and if you want to bully the committee into closing down before I come back (inaudible).

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) the gentleman either.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk, I think that we'll leave it to the Chair and certainly we're not going to keep the meeting open for Mr. Harris. I don't think he intended it that way. He was assuming that it would be and if it was still here when he came back that he would be given the right to speak and I, as Chairman, will guarantee him his right to speak (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: I'll defend his right to speak.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, so we'll now formally open this meeting to get on with the hearings that were adjourned on the twenty-fifth. For the sake of history I suppose, we should introduce ourselves in the committee and you introduce yourself minister and your officials. So I'm David Gilbert the MHA for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, St. John's East Extern.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And I understand that Mr. Harris is the other member of the committee who will be joining us later.

MS. COWAN: Okay, thank you. Pat Cowan, Member for Conception Bay South, Minister of Environment and Lands. I have with me, here on my right, Dave Jeans who's the assistant deputy minister on the environment side of the department; Barbara Wakeham who is the Assistant Deputy Minister on the Lands side and Frank Harris who works in the financial department. Is it appropriate now for me to introduce my daughter or do you want me to wait?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MS. COWAN: I think it is a nice idea because it means that once Adella has been introduced to this particular meeting, I have already introduced her to everybody ahead of time. Adella has accompanied me today as my pretend daughter or substitute daughter - just having one son - and I am really pleased to have her along and apparently, one time in Grade III, when they had to dress up as what they wanted to be when they grew up, she dressed up as the Prime Minister, so it would be a good experience for her to be here today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Great ambition.

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a number of questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have ten minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have been looking at the Estimates of course and I have a number of questions, some more general questions for the minister and last year, the minister may remember, I got right in to the facts and figures, which I will do again this year. Under section 1.1.01 which is the minister's office, under Salaries, there is an increase there this year of $4,000 approximately; is there any particular reason for that, because I thought we were in the process of cutbacks and freezes and that type of thing?

MS. COWAN: Okay. Well for one thing, at this point before I turn it over to Frank, my Transportation and Communications costs have been cut as they have been every year, because I have never used my full allotment, I think it was $55,000 that's there for my travel when I first became minister, so I believe there is a significant cut in that; it has been lowered according to my travel each year. I think my travel is adequate to keep me informed but it is certainly not excessive.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Quite parsimonious. Other than that, I will ask Frank if he can to explain - is it the $4,000 difference you mentioned Jack?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, approximately.

MS. COWAN: Yes, okay Frank.

MR. HARRIS: The increase this year is the result of the re-instatement of a $2,000 general salary cut that was applied against the minister's office during the Budget process last year, and also, there are dollars there this year for step progressions for staff in the division under salary scales.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: We don't know what's there. You know, depending on what decisions are made.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. The next one, you mentioned Transportation and Communications and that you have taken a cut in that but according to what was budgeted which was $33,100, you spent $42,100 and $33,100 is budgeted again this year, I mean, if you spent $42,100 and that's down from $55,000 as you mentioned, why -

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes. No, well I am trying to remember. What happened probably is that I had a couple of trips at a great distance.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Okay. Well we will let Frank tell you.

MR. HARRIS: The increase in the 93-94, the current fiscal year just ending, is a relocation expenditure for the former minister, the hon. James Kelland. That was approved by Cabinet and paid in 93-94. It is a one shot expenditure, directly related to relocation.

MR. J. BYRNE: You said it was for Jim Kelland, the previous minister?

MR. HARRIS: The previous minister of the department. There was a Minute of Council issued authorizing a relocation payment to him on his relocation back to Labrador. I believe it was roughly around $10,000.

MS. COWAN: Ten thousand dollars?

MR. F. HARRIS: I believe so, yes.

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is something provided for (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You've been minister for how many years now?

MS. COWAN: Four and a half now, I think.

MR. F. HARRIS: That took a while to process. That item was before Justice for clarification and so on. It took quite a while to get to the payment stage.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Thank you. The next section, under General Administration, you have Transportation and Communication. Again, you budgeted $43,900 and you spent $53,000.

AN HON. MEMBER: Ten thousand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Ten thousand. I don't suppose that is the same $10,000.

MR. F. HARRIS: What head is that again, sorry?

MR. J. BYRNE: Under section 1.2.01.03, Transportation and Communications. You budgeted $43,900, spent $53,900, and you have $43,900 budgeted again.

MR. F. HARRIS: That increase there of approximately $10,000 was increased travel cost incurred by departmental executive. There was a transfer of funds approved through the budgetary process partway through the year to cover those costs. Travel of the Deputy Minister and the ADMs.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The point I'm trying to get to is that if you budget say $44,000 and you spend $54,000 for round figures, you have $44,000 budgeted again this year, I mean, it is a $10,000 increase.... If you spent that much last year why wouldn't you spend the same this year? Obviously you went over.

MS. COWAN: That is more of a policy question, I gather. As minister I have to approve all travel. It comes to my desk. I feel it is extremely important in the environmental area to keep people up to date and also - well, up to date I guess is the best thing. We are just talking about executive at this point. Plus a lot of my executive work with other provinces and at a national level in order to develop the joint policies and that kind of thing. You can't always predict what it will be right down to the last cent, you know.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was going to say, but this is a 25 per cent difference. That is a substantial amount.

MS. COWAN: Well, that is the reason.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Next. Section 1.2.02, under General Administration, Administrative Support. You have under .12 there, Information Technology. You have $82,500. Can you follow me?

MS. COWAN: Yes, we are doing okay. What is the page number?

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, page 82. Administrative Support, Information Technology, which is 1.2.02.12, under that. You budgeted $82,500, you spent $50,000, you have $99,000 budgeted this year. I fully support information technology. I think it is the way to go in the future and that type of thing, but if you only spent $50,000 then why are you doubling it this year? Are you getting new equipment? What is the story?

MS. COWAN: Yes, Frank, to you, sorry.

MR. F. HARRIS: The initial budget figure for 1993-1994 of $82,500, and the revised of $50,000, was the result of approximately $32,000 or $33,000 being transferred from General Administration out to the various line divisions. There was block funding provided for the purchase of computer equipment and printers and to keep systems upgraded and so on. As we go through the year and identify the needs in the other divisions, funds are transferred from General Administration out to the line divisions. Consequently you will find down through the estimates other areas there where the initial budget for these line divisions was down and the revised is up. It is a trade-off.

There is an increase this year. We've allocated in the budget process an additional approximately $17,000 to finish the work on a local area network. The installation is in the West Block. That will be finalized this current fiscal year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Employment and Labour Relations, they are spending a fair dollar too on information technology. So is that going to be a policy throughout government now, to coordinate each department?

MS. COWAN: It is extremely important within our department because as you know, having worked in lands, that we need an awful lot of information on clients, you know, who come in, and it just makes their job, the client of the government and Lands officer, whatever, just gives them a real advantage over what we used to have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, I look forward to the day that it will be completely computerized.

MS. COWAN: You were there when it started?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the groundwork, the (inaudible).

MS. COWAN: We have a good system. It has been found, I think, one of the best ones in government, actually.

MR. J. BYRNE: Still a lot of work can be done.

MS. COWAN: A lot of work.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Page 82 also. Policy Development and Planning, under Salaries. You had budgeted $156,500 and you spent $122,000, and budgeted $121,100 for this year. Did you have a layoff there in that section or what, you are down $34,000.

MR. F. HARRIS: There is a reduction in the 1994-1995 estimates due to the fact that because of our budgetary constraints on our salary plan it was decided that the position of Public Information Officer would not be filled in the upcoming fiscal year. As a result the estimates are reduced by the salary for that position. It is frozen, in fact.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. F. HARRIS: There are some adjustments, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many people are we talking about being -

MR. F. HARRIS: Frozen?

MR. J. BYRNE: - eliminated from Environment and Lands? How many positions?

MR. F. HARRIS: Five.

MR. J. BYRNE: Five.

MR. F. HARRIS: That is throughout the whole department.

MS. COWAN: Yes. We will see too as you go through that are going to be putting some new positions in some critical areas as well. You probably made a note of that. If you wish to speak on it, fine, or question it.

MR. J. BYRNE: I see, okay. We might as well get into that right now. What new positions?

MS. COWAN: Alright. We have four new positions that are going to go into Waste Management, developing a provincial waste management strategy. We have three going into the Industrial division, and we have four new Lands officers that will show up as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Next page, page 83. Pollution Clean-Up. Yes, under Amount to be Voted you spent last year $42,400, this year you have $58,600, and you have $40,000 for next year. Basically you are budgeting less than you budgeted last year and you spent 30 per cent more. Why would that be?

MS. COWAN: Frank.

MR. F. HARRIS: The reduction in the upcoming 1994-1995 fiscal year is a result - I'm sorry. What was the head again? Was it Professional Services?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Amount to be Voted, on the bottom there, the Amount to be Voted, the total.

MR. F. HARRIS: In the 1993-1994 fiscal year there was a one-shot study funded to identify fumes in the Rutledge Crescent area. This had to be funded part-way through the year, and as a result they are revised for 1993-1994 up. That is reflected then when we go into the next year, it is reduced.

MR. J. BYRNE: Speaking of Rutledge Crescent, I've had a number of calls myself on that. I was planning on bringing it up. You are well aware of it anyway. Mr. Efford, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, had some input over there too. That problem is not solved yet. What is the story on that?

MS. COWAN: Dave sits on a committee that meets with the citizens in that area. It is a bit of a headache, that particular problem, because we are having a lot of trouble identifying just what the smell is. We've brought in a number of experts. I will let Dave tell you what is happening there at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, I lived on that street for a year or so.

MS. COWAN: Did you? Did you find the same problem?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, that is a long while ago.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It wasn't there then.

MR. JEANS: Yes, we've been working both with the City and with a committee of the residents to try and find out what the exact cause is. We've had quite a sampling of the sewer and the laterals going to people's homes. To make a long story short at this point, traps have been installed so that most of the odours have been at least stopped from entering their homes. We are still trying to trace the source within the sewer itself? There's some ongoing work scheduled for the spring now to try and pin point that more accurately?

MR. J. BYRNE: Some of the people believe that it's coming from the White Hills depot.

MR. JEANS: Yes, there's various ideas put forth by the residents. We've discounted most of those based on the direction of ground water flow and so on by the consultant. I don't think we've convinced all of them but in our minds, based on the studies done so far, the source is not up to the White Hills or any of the gas stations that are around the area. We've dug trenches, we've sunk ground water wells and sampled both the air above the water and the water, analyzed them and there's no trace of any hydrocarbons.

MR. J. BYRNE: I guess I'll talk to that. I remember before Virginia Park went down there, I'm not saying it's built on a marsh because a lot of marshland and bog land in that area were taken out. I mean is it from natural gases from the ground I wonder? Has that been looked at?

MR. JEANS: Well again, the bore holes that were sunk were all by the side of the sewer pipe and they didn't turn up any traces of hydrocarbons that would account for the smell within the sewer itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: There's no solutions in sight yet?

MR. JEANS: No, except to the extent that we have at least eliminated the smell going into most of the homes by the virtue of the city putting on traps that were going to each of the draining systems around the homes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do you know if any of the smells or the smell itself is affecting the health of any people in the area?

MR. JEANS: Well we don't believe so. We did have a couple of consultants down from the Ontario Ministry of the Environment, a toxicologist, that advised on these kind of smells and levels were detected and it was her view that there was no long term health threat to the levels that were found there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I now recognize Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Just a point of clarification for me to bring me up to date on what's going on. A few years ago a federal minister of the environment or some institution in this country proposed a Round Table on the environment for the country. What's the status of that now? Is there a Round Table and just what's happening?

MS. COWAN: Okay, every province in Canada, Mr. Chair, has a Round Table and we do as well. We have just recently made new appointments, some were from resignations. It was time to re-examine it anyway and we've made new appointments and I expect that a meeting is imminent there - developing at the request of the Premier and the Department of Development, it is the Premier's committee actually on sustainable development. The Round Table on the environment and economy is what it is. So we have people on the committee -

MR. TULK: It was just called the environment at one time?

MS. COWAN: Yes, what it is is to try to get business, people with environmental backgrounds, government backgrounds and so on to come together to sort of bring a consensus approach to sustainable development issues. At the moment the committee or the Round Table is preparing a report for the Premier as to how they see that we could best develop a sustainable policy for government or at least for each department of government.

MR. TULK: Now that's a provincial level?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that's a provincial level. We try to have good representation from across the Province as well as a male/female balance and the business, environment side and so on represented equally. Actually Kay Young, the Member for Terra Nova, was a member of that Round Table.

MR. TULK: Is there also a Canadian Round Table on the environment? Where do we fit into that?

MS. COWAN: Yes, there's a National Round Table. We have representation on that Round Table and they are sort of the, I guess, the group that take - they have an office and a lot of money put into it and they kind of take a lead role in setting the pace for Round Tables across Canada.

MR. TULK: I'm asking for my own reasons because I want to do something as a member of the House but who does that Round Table, at the Canadian level, answer to? Do they answer to a federal minister?

MS. COWAN: I'm not sure because in each case, to get the highest level of impact that they have been designated as in the provinces anyway, as the Premiers Round Tables, so I would assume that at the national level it is the Prime Minister.

MR. TULK: They advise the Prime Minister?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. TULK: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 84, Environmental Investigations continued. Under Environmental Pollution Clean-up, Purchased Services, you budgeted $4,926,000 and spent $215,000 and have budgeted $5,017,300; what kind of explanation can you give me for that?

MS. COWAN: Okay. For the last couple of years we have been hoping, Mr. Chair, that we would get the clean-up underway at Mackinson's, the site in Labrador -

MR. HARRIS. Gander and Come by Chance.

MS. COWAN: Gander and Come by Chance, not Labrador, sorry, cleaned up, under the national program on orphan sites and we have found that it just didn't move as quickly as we expected so we have had to put money aside and it wasn't spent. Now in actual fact, it will be going ahead this summer. Last summer there was exploratory work done at the sites, so they now know what they are going to encounter as best they can and work where, we have, under the Public Tender Act, awarded contracts now to a variety of different people who are in the clean-up business, and the work will be progressing now I guess, as soon as the weather is appropriate.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned Come by Chance clean-up. The company that owns that now, will they be putting any money into that clean-up?

MS. COWAN: It's outside the grounds actually of the plant itself, I believe, so the company that's there now does not have responsibility - it is considered an orphan site, and there is no one whom we can find who can take responsibility at this time to clean it up.

MR. J. BYRNE: I had a note made here when I looked at this section; are there any dollars for Baie Verte site to clean up that? I mean, I have been up there and I had a look at that and that is pathetic up there.

MS. COWAN: No money is set aside at this time. We feel that really, I mean that site, you have seen it and such a massive clean-up is going to be required there, that there is really no way we can handle that clean-up; the finances of it are just absolutely horrendous and so we are looking for something that will be compatible with the environment in the Province that will also lead to a clean-up of that particular site. Now whether we are ever able to find a group that will pass the environmental assessment and so on and be appropriate, remains to be seen, but we do have people from the department monitoring it.

MR. J. BYRNE: While we are on Baie Verte, what is the status now?

MS. COWAN: Status?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: We are waiting. I assume that the proponent had to go back and do some more work for us particularly relating to monitoring of the inflow of the asbestos, if indeed the project goes ahead. I had expected actually to hear from them around this time. The proponent as you know, is not under any particular time frame but they were under pressure because of the markets so I would assume that I am going to hear from them soon but the ball is in their court at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are still actively, seriously considering that project?

MS. COWAN: Well we are not actively considering it unless they get back to us, like we are not doing any work on it now but if they come back to us obviously with the information we requested, we will certainly have to have a look at that and weigh it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you. Page 85, under Municipal, Community and Civil Services. We have a situation in Flatrock and dealt with the Minister of Health and the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs; we have fourteen wells polluted in the Town of Flatrock, and I am trying to work a deal with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Is there any monies available through your department to correct a problem like that?

MS. COWAN: We sort of do the advising and the planning. Municipal Affairs is given our knowledge if it could be of help to them, but the actual monies is in Municipal Affairs, but if we can be of any assistance to you in providing information that would help Municipal Affairs, that we haven't to date, some of our technicians, we are certainly willing to help. I would assume we have been advised.

MR. J. BYRNE: We have had the inspectors down from health, the same people who would inspect if you were going to build a house or a well or a septic system, that type of thing.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it's a serious condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) Sharon Williams, I believe her name is, and they came up with the problem that there are fourteen houses, and people down there, it's just pathetic, and it's been ongoing for fourteen months.

MS. COWAN: They have to truck their water in?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MS. COWAN: They have to truck their water in?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes, some people do. Then there are definitely no bucks available, anyway?

Industrial Environmental Engineering, page 85, salaries, you have $515,900 budgeted, $487,000 spent, and $652,100 budgeted. I think you kind of alluded to that earlier when you said that -

MS. COWAN: Yes, new positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: New positions.

Page 86, administration, under Water Resources Management, purchased services there, subsection 06, you had $2,200 budgeted and spent $10,200 and you have $2,200 budgeted again this year. What's the reasoning behind that?

MS. COWAN: Under administration?

MR. J. BYRNE: Administration, subsection 06, purchased services. You had budgeted $2,200 and spent $10,200.

MS. COWAN: Is that in connection with the federal\provincial agreement?

MR. F. HARRIS: The increased expenditures in 1993-'94 were a result of divisional printing costs. There were printing jobs the division incurred that were not originally budgeted for, and the money to cover those increased expenditures was actually transferred from block funding under general administration. As additional items are identified that the department has to cover, block funding is transferred to the line divisions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Nine under the same section, allowances and assistance, you had budgeted $30,000, spent $35,000 and you are budgeted $42,000. What is the allowance assistance for, and why the increase?

MR. F. HARRIS: The original budget of $30,000, the revised $35,000, and $42,000 for 1994-'95, these are funds that are provided for a bursary program that the department is administering to train three graduate engineers in the Masters program.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. F. HARRIS: We have approval, due to increased semester costs at the university, we have increased the semester fees that we pay these students, the costs that the mainland universities have (inaudible). We currently have three students enrolled in that, and those costs became effect part way through 1993-'94, so we have had to budget an increase in 1993-'94 and then also for the next full year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 88, under Water Rights and Investigations, subsection 03, transportation and communications, you budgeted $17,400; you spent $8,400 and have $17,400 budgeted again this year. Now why would that be?

MR. F. HARRIS: The decrease in 1993-'94 was just generally due to reduced travel costs incurred by divisional staff. I don't have specific reasons for that, unless Mr. Dave Jeans would have any additional information.

MS. COWAN: (inaudible) transportation and communications was not what had been budgeted for. It was due to less travel, I believe, by the director. Do you have any further information on that? That is Page 88.

MR. JEANS: I think it was just a matter of less travel than anticipated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired now and I recognize Mr. Tulk again.

MR. TULK: I have a very quick question. With regards to the Round Table on the Environment at the federal level or the provincial level, not now, but I would like if I could get the terms of reference of both committees. I wonder if it is possible? Mr. Jeans are you in charge of that?

MR. JEANS: No, Mr. Tulk, but we can probably get it for you.

MS. COWAN: Tom Graham is the person.

MR. TULK: The terms of reference, I would like to have them in the next day or so if that is possible because there is something I want to do. I do not expect you to get into them now, but I would like to know who the federal chairperson is and who the provincial chairperson is, and I would like also to ask the minister if those two round tables are at arm's length from both governments?

MS. COWAN: It varies from province to province. Some of them have their own office and their own secretariat. The national - is it arm's length?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. TULK: The national, that is what I'm interested in.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it is at an arm's length. Some have the minister sitting on them, some don't, but that one is at arm's length.

MR. TULK: Okay. That is all I wanted to know, Mr. Chairman.

MS. COWAN: We will get that for you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: Getting back to the master's students who are on the mainland doing master's degrees, what are they doing their master's in? Is it environmental engineering or...?

MR. JEANS: They are graduate civil engineers who are getting their master's degree in water resources engineering.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

MS. COWAN: Individuals who are difficult for us to find.

MR. JEANS: Yes, we don't have that expertise in the Province. The University of Waterloo provides them with the ability to get their master's in that degree of specialization.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. JEANS: They assist in design parameters for water control structures, like bridges, culverts. They are aware of the physical characteristics of ground water, surface water, hydraulics, the whole area dealing with flood issues, to bridges, streams. It is pretty extensive, especially (inaudible).

MR. TULK: Are we going to be able to keep them in the Province once they graduate?

MR. JEANS: That is part of the contract. They have to stay for a certain period. They are native Newfoundlanders now who graduated from Memorial. This just enables them to advance their education and get their master's. Then they will have to come back to the Province and work for a period of time.

MR. LANGDON: How many years?

MR. JEANS: I think it is three years.

AN HON. MEMBER: We are paying the tuition for it.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is great.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I think it is a good program.

MR. TULK: The kind of thing we should be doing, actually.

MR. LANGDON: Okay, thank you.

MR. TULK: Congratulations to the minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, under Water Rights, 2.4.05, .07 there. Property, Furnishings and Equipment. You had budgeted $1,400, you have $16,400.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I think the wrong figure was shown there. I will ask Frank. I think there is a mistake there. Is it, Frank?

MR. F. HARRIS: That is head 2.4.05.07, is it? Is that the one?

MR. J. BYRNE: 2.4.05.07, yes, Property, Furnishings and Equipment. Yes, go for it.

MR. F. HARRIS: The increase in 1993-1994 up to $16,400 was due to the additional purchase of specialized scientific equipment for use under the hydrometric operations of the division. It is just some specialized equipment that it was identified that the division required and funding was provided from other accounts within the department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Water Quality Agreement, 2.4.06, number .07 again. Property, Furnishings and Equipment. You had budgeted $58,500, spent $52,400, and now you have for 1994-1995, $33,500. You spent $52,000 last year on Property, Furnishings and Equipment and the budget is $33,500 this year. With the cutbacks that are ongoing and everything being frozen, this seems to be a lot of money.

MR. JEANS: This relates to a program which started last year. There was a lot of up-front cost with respect to purchase of computer equipment and so on that is not required once you have that equipment. It is not required the second year, of course.

MR. J. BYRNE: That $33,500, would that be for purchasing more computer equipment for, say, the information technology that you are planning on putting in the department?

MR. JEANS: Yes, but some of the large expenditures were the year before, which accounts for the difference.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. On to page 89, Water Resources Management, 2.4.07. It says: "Appropriations provide for projects under the cost-shared Canada-Newfoundland Water Resources Management Agreement." Can you give me some kind of an explanation on that, what that is all about?

MS. COWAN: We entered into an agreement with the federal government to do some studies here in the Province that need to be done. We have a major flooding problem here in the Province as compared to other provinces so that is one of the areas where we will be doing a lot of work and finishing up studies that began earlier in areas of the Province which are particularly prone to flooding, and trying to establish why and what we can do in the future to deal with it, and to prevent homes being built there.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this is comparably new for the department?

MS. COWAN: It is not completely new but it is certainly a real boost of what we are able to do in that particular area. We have been doing a bit of work.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, it is probably the wrong word, but it is completely new funding for that particular type of thing because there is nothing there for last year.

MS. COWAN: That is right, there is nothing there for last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 90, 2.5.02, Environmental Assessment, Salaries Section 1 there. There was $282,000 budgeted, $346,000 spent, and $373,000 estimated. That is quite an increase. That is new staff, I suppose?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is the simple answer, new staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many?

MS. COWAN: Two temporary biologists, and in 1994-95 we will be having three new positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Full-time permanent positions?

MS. COWAN: Of that I am not sure. Are they full time?

MR. JEANS: Full-time temporary.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you can let them go whenever you want to?

Page 90, Section 2.5.04, Environmental Impact Management. Now, I have a note made here, Come By Chance monitoring, no money. What I am referring to here, of course, Madam Minister is that you stated before that the monitoring going on at Come By Chance is done by the company itself. Do you still feel that is working properly because there certainly has been no improvement in it?

MS. COWAN: There is not much improvement I have to say. When it started off I was pleased, as I mentioned to the committee the other night, but it has fallen back quite dreadfully over the last little while. I am actually now requesting a meeting with Mr. Mifflin. The fire has thrown everything out of whack at the moment but we are doing a little bit of increased monitoring, some that has been done before, and a little more in-depth type of monitoring is going to go on out there.

We hope we will put some of the issues to rest, or if we do find there are some concerns, that they can be addressed. Dave, do you have the technical information there that you could pass on?

MR. JEANS: This is largely related to some studies we had done with respect to vegetation impacts and we will be really sitting on the shoulders of the company more. We will be spending more time reviewing their reports, assessing their monitoring efforts to ensure they are accurate, and their own monitoring as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: As I mentioned earlier this has been going on for awhile and it is not getting any better. Is there going to be any time frame put on it, or limits put on it, to say: listen here, it has to be solved within a certain period, or are we going to take some drastic action, whatever that may be? If you drive by Come By Chance on the Trans-Canada Highway which is a fair distance away it is pathetic. I am amazed that the people living in that area who have been putting up with that stench as long as it has been ongoing have not been more vocal.

MS. COWAN: Well, there have been some minor improvements but they fall back. For every step it goes ahead there would be a fire, a breakdown in something they just installed, or whatever. The sulphur recovery unit was going okay, then they did not have to use it because they were burning a lower sulphur crude and that was all very positive. Then later there was a breakdown in the sulphur recovery unit when they started burning a sour crude, so it has been a difficult one. The smell problem is not one that I anticipated would be dealt with before this summer. It required a cover for an API separator which separates oil and water and then they can reuse the oil. That required a fair amount of engineering advice. Then of course the construction of a cover for it that was particular to that separator. That I did not expect to be done as quickly as the lowering of the sulphur, SO2.

That is proceeding again not like I want it to, so that is the reason I've asked Mr. Mifflin to come in again. We are going to have to assess all of this now in terms of the fire. It is closed at the moment and I have no idea what is going to happen, but certainly there is going to have to be more cooperation out there or something drastic is going to have to occur. They are just going along on a wing and a prayer at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many positions are at Come By Chance, how many jobs out there?

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: At the moment approximately 600, 700 positions. The number of positions that are there right now I'm not quite sure, because you have both the direct and the subcontracted at work, right?

MR. J. BYRNE: Say approximately 600 jobs out there.

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible) keep saying a couple of hundred, but it is a lot more than that.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought it was around 300.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Four hundred? Four hundred, (inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: It depends on who is doing the counting. About 20 per cent of the direct employee with Come By Chance is subcontracted. So if you include the subcontracted work as opposed to the direct employees you might be talking 350 to 400 direct in there, you know, and another 200, still direct jobs, yes.

MS. COWAN: I asked Barbara that. Actually it is Dave's area, but I asked Barbara because when she was in ITT she was around when they set up, this particular gang set up.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: Come By Chance has the highest industrial wage average of any employed jobs in Newfoundland.

MR. J. BYRNE: Run that by me again, please.

MS. WAKEHAM: They have the highest industrial wage average for jobs in Newfoundland, Come By Chance employees.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure you know when you are talking about jobs, I mean, one impacts upon the other, I know. But it is pretty drastic to have to close them down or something, you know (inaudible).

MS. COWAN: What we would like to see, and if we don't see this, then we are going to have to just consider where we are going to go with them. It is difficult in an economy that we have such as ours, and they filed under the bankruptcy act.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes, protection under the bankruptcy act.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) they have done that?

MS. COWAN: Oh yes. What we hope to see is a continual change in (inaudible) and we have limited, asked them to keep their emissions at a certain tonnage per year. Really, the only hope out there is that a new owner will take over. That way the new owner will be in a position to do the upgrading that needs to be done and to (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Are they making money?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne, your time has expired.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Following up on what Mr. Byrne said, that is a question that I've been wanting to ask you, Patt, somewhere else. I drive by out there too, and I don't think there is anybody in Newfoundland who won't agree, not even the owners, that the stench is sometimes practically unbearable. What would be the cost? What has to be done out there in order to stop that? What kind of cost are we talking about?

MS. COWAN: Millions and millions.

MR. TULK: You just can't walk out there and say: Alright, we are going to shut this place down. You have 600, 700 jobs that are directly related to Come By Chance, and God knows, we might have 1,000 or 1,200 that are indirectly related.

MS. COWAN: Tell him what it puts into the economy. I will ask Barbara again, (inaudible) -

MR. TULK: Here is my question. I've never been made aware of this, to be quite frank with you. What is the solution to the problem, and how much would it cost anybody who had to (Inaudible)?

MS. COWAN: It is a -

MR. TULK: Now I know too there is not much point in going out and spending money if the damn place is going to go bankrupt. Right?

MS. COWAN: Well, that is it. The new refinery is what we need. I question the sense of ever having re-opened it. If the thing had never closed down then the maintenance would have been done, the environmental improvements that are appropriate for this day and age would have been gradually done. But the refinery lay there idle for such a long time that when the new company came in and started up, I mean, they started from scratch. I think that heavier requirements should have been put on them in the beginning. If a new company does come in and purchases Come By Chance there will be an agreement worked out with them through the Department of the Environment and Lands that is going to put a fair amount of weight on them to get cracking and get the SO2 levels down and get some of these other problems -

MR. TULK: The SO2 level?

MS. COWAN: Yes, but there are other problems out there too.

MR. TULK: What is that?

MS. WAKEHAM: Sulphur dioxide.

MS. COWAN: The smell. Sulphur dioxide, acid rain. Then of course there are these smell problems. There is just a multitude of items. You can't isolate what has to be done out there. There is not one single thing that can be done and transform the whole place. So it is in millions. I don't know how many millions. Do you?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. JEANS: It is 1960s technology, the refinery. It really needs to be replaced. You are talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

MS. COWAN: I think they put $40 million into it to date.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What kind of crude are they using?

MR. JEANS: Around December they were down to around 1.1 per cent sulphur crude.

MR. TULK: What does that mean?

MR. JEANS: That is the per cent sulphur which is (inaudible).

MR. TULK: But is it that good or bad?

MS. COWAN: That is sweet, that is good.

MR. JEANS: That is fairly sweet crude.

MS. COWAN: You see, they did make improvements for a while and it looked really positive. Because they did start purchasing sweeter crude, which make a tremendous difference, but then it frittered away again. Partly it was due to the sulphur recovery unit breaking down. They can burn a more sour crude if that unit is working because it takes the sulphur and converts it into sort of a pebbly kind of material. It is bagged and stored. They have problems with it, see, because it was lying idle for fifteen years, twenty years, how long?

MR. TULK: I don't recall that being like that when it was opened originally.

MS. COWAN: In the 1960s?

MR. TULK: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it may well be that because we are more conscious of these things now.

MR. TULK: I never smelled the like of it.

AN HON. MEMBER: They used a much sweeter crude too. Only half a per cent of sulphur.

MR. TULK: Did they? Okay. Tremendous problem.

MS. COWAN: Yes. As Barbara just said, it didn't operate long enough for us to ever really get a handle on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You talk about new owners. Is that being actively pursued, and by whom if it is?

MS. COWAN: Yes. I think that it has been made public in the newspapers and so on. Vitol is looking at it. Vitol are world-traders in oil and they are looking for a refinery to purchase. They are showing some active interest in Come By Chance, but your guess is as good as mine whether they will be able to carry it through. It is a business decision for them, obviously.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Page 92, 3.1.01, Administration, for Supplies. One hundred and twenty-four thousand one hundred dollars budgeted, $75,000 spent, $124,100 budgeted.

MS. WAKEHAM: For Supplies?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Alright. I will ask Barbara to elaborate on that.

MS. WAKEHAM: That is the purchase of less maps from the federal government for resale.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are planning on buying the same amount as planned last year.

MS. WAKEHAM: Basically what has happened is we've had less purchases there and therefore you are showing the same thing on the revenue stream when you go down further. We've been doing a lot of digitizing and so we are looking at a different mix of product coming in. So yes, we are looking at more.

MR. J. BYRNE: The topographical maps that are there now, I mean, They have gone up in price. Is that why the purchases are down? Because the price of maps has gone up so much. Topographical maps. I mean, we are talking about the 1:50000.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes, but I don't think it is the actual increase in the cost of the maps themselves. It is just that we've had less activity because of the economy and less requirement for maps themselves, so there are less people purchasing maps at this point in time, but we are going into new digital products next year that we are hoping to be able to use in place, some of the federal government departments have requested additional information that were for capital works projects next year so we will be purchasing more maps.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Now you say you are going into digital, are those 1:50000 maps, which hunters use and trouters and all these types of people, ATV users and all these types of people, 1:50,000, will you have them digitized in the building there?

MS. WAKEHAM: No, we just finished digitizing the 1:250000 and we have some of the NTS ones at the 1:50,000 level now; we don't have all of them completed.

MR. J. BYRNE: So the person who goes in when you have it done and completed, and wants 1:50000 map -

MS. WAKEHAM: What are we going to charge for it?

MR. J. BYRNE: The price of it is going to be a fortune. But this is the plan that you would actually have a printout off the machine than having them stored rather than having them in their cabinets there and be in the computer and just give them a printout or what? Is that the plan?

MS. WAKEHAM: If in fact we can get the printing actually done, okay, on the digitized maps that we are printing off now but our printer is really slow, we need to have an optic oscillator to do that and that costs $25,000. We have asked Treasury Board, Treasury Board said no, we can't have it.

MR. J. BYRNE: You must be able to find $25,000 in here somewhere. Anyway, thank you. Next one, 3.1.02, Salaries. How much more time do I have now because -

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have four minutes now, sir, then I will recognize Mr. Harris.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. 3.1.03, page 93, subsection 12, Information and Technology. You had budgeted $60,000 you spent $83,000 and you only budgeted $23,500 this year, hardware again?

MS.WAKEHAM: Yes hardware, and basically, the reason that we are down is that we have completed the most purchases that we need.

MR. J. BYRNE: Cottage Land Development, 3.2.02, No.6, Purchased Services, $200,000 budgeted, $85,000 spent, $245,000 budgeted; that's what?

MS. WAKEHAM: The same problem with not having enough planners to be able to go out and do the work or not enough planners to be able to monitor the work of contractors. Basically, we have the same problem that we have every year. We have five, ten, fifteen different areas that we have in the various areas of planning and you only have so many bodies to do so much work.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this money there -

MS.WAKEHAM: $245,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that for, say, surveys or putting in roads or what is it -

MS. WAKEHAM: It is all the design and routing, the whole works that need to be done. The reason that we have the $245,000 budgeted again for this year is that we have made a decision that we are going to try and contract out to the private sector a bunch of the work and basically put the two planners themselves to do monitoring in terms of reference and scaling as opposed to trying to do the individual stuff itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Topographic Mapping, Page 95, 3.3.03.

MS. COWAN: That hasn't completely fallen apart since you left, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I don't know if there is anything wrong; hopefully you got there, I imagine you did.

MS. WAKEHAM: It takes a year when a new person goes in to be able to make some changes.

MR. J. BYRNE: To what?

MS. WAKEHAM: It takes a year to get used to the new department before you can make some changes; you have to learn

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh yes. Good, glad to hear it. Topographic Mapping, I was looking at Professional Services there, $27,000 and you spent $67,000 and you are down to $20,000 this year. What are those for?

MS. WAKEHAM: That was a cost-shared project with Newfoundland Telephone for the production of topographic maps; we decided that if we haven't got enough money to do all this stuff ourselves that we will start doing something with the private sector where they are needed.

MR. J. BYRNE: That has been ongoing for a while. I know Newfoundland Telephone has been after the department for quite a while to get into this geographic information system and so are you starting to work on that?

MS. WAKEHAM: We did it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good, glad to hear it. I have more questions here so -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize Mr. Harris, Mr. Byrne you pretty well have had a free run for about an hour now; Mr. Harris has some questions, so with the interjections we get from the other side from time to time for the quick questions like we had with yours, will we go on with the ten and ten or would you give Mr. Harris initially a period to catch up?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I was just going to ask you a question. Have you Jack, have you covered it?

MR. HARRIS: I haven't covered it; I haven't seen this document which no doubt is printed on recyclable paper. I haven't discussed the program.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will recognize Mr. Harris. We'll go ten and ten and then we'll see what you've got. That's the easiest way to do it to be fair to everybody, and anyone else who wants to cut in, of course.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the last day I was just getting into questions on the forest industry and expressing the concern that was also expressed by Dr. Hulan, that is shared by many people in the Province, and that is that there are forest practices, timber cutting practices, some sanctioned by governments, others happening on their own, whether they be individuals going and cutting logs they are not supposed to cut, cutting more logs than they have permits for, clear-cutting when there is a tremendous debate within ecological and forest management circles about the costs and benefits of such in the long run, damages to waterways resulting from that, damage to the ecosystem. Now there was a general statement made the other day that the forest management plans are subjected to an environmental review. Can the minister tell us how many plans have been presented? For what areas? When the reviews were done? What the process was? And who was involved in it?

MS. COWAN: Since 1981 there have been seven different projects registered. Now, it was found out that the Environmental Assessment Act, as it stood, did not really meet the requirements of timber operations - it just wasn't working - so our department, with the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, has been working on preparing a generic set of guidelines for timber management, and that came about when I felt it couldn't go on any further, when the Roddickton - not Roddickton; where was it in Labrador?

AN HON. MEMBER: Cartwright.

MS. COWAN: Cartwright project was registered, I felt that we had to come to grips with the problem, so I would not give permission for that to go ahead until we had a generic set of operational guidelines. Now that is coming along nicely. They have come back to the department. Forestry has presented what they felt was an adequate program. We still don't feel it's quite adequate.

There was contained, within the information that they gave us, an adaptive management strategy, or an approach, which we thought was worth pursuing and we've asked them to look into it more and to provide us with more information on it.

It's very difficult, I guess, to know, when you set out to harvest a particular forest just what you're going to run into as you go along, so this will be an adaptive system whereby as different problems are encountered, say you suddenly run into a Pine Marten nest, what would take place at that particular time then to deal with the Pine Marten situation, or if you run into a particular other situation that's difficult.

The whole area, Jack, of harvesting, clear-cutting, that type of thing, is, as you say, a highly debatable issue. It's one that the minister is concerned about. We would certainly like to see other types of equipment used, and I don't want to speak too much for him because that actually is his area, but Mr. Flight and I quite frequently talk about it and try to think of ways it could eventually be dealt with, but the questions, actually, on the clear-cutting are best directed at him. It's just like fisheries is responsible for its area; each department is responsible for sustainable development activities in its area. So it's a forestry issue largely but our department is always there to provide input and will work with - each new project that is registered will then be subject to the generic guidelines and will be possessed and so on by our department.

MR. HARRIS: You didn't quite answer my question but I'll get back to that. Let me say then that it seems that what you're saying is that the departments view that the department - or is it your view that the Department of Environment and Lands is not satisfied with the way that the Department of Forestry and Agriculture has been handling environmental aspects of forest management?

MS. COWAN: Oh, I couldn't just make a sweeping statement like that, no.

MR. HARRIS: You said that since 1981 this has been in the hands of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture and it's only when the Cartwright Project was put forth did you finally put your foot down and say that we're not meeting the requirements.

MS. COWAN: I'd say, if anything, that the Department of Environment and Lands might have been dragging its heels in not putting it's foot down long ago.

MR. HARRIS: Can you tell me how many people in your department are involved in overseeing or evaluating the development of these - I think you called it a generic set of operational requirements? I'm not sure what the term is.

MS. COWAN: But we've had no dedicated staff. It would be environmental assessment people who would have that as part of their workload. Three is it? About three.

MR. HARRIS: So there's three people in the department who are involved in the environmental assessment.

MS. COWAN: - with forestry.

MR. HARRIS: With forestry. The environmental assessment, are we looking at Page 89 here? There's several different heads here; administration, environmental assessment, pesticide control and monitoring, environmental assessments agreement. Where would these people be that you're talking about, the three people who are involved in the forestry?

MR. JEANS: Mr. Harris, they'd be the director, which is in the administrative section, they'd be people in the assessment branch itself under 2.5:02 and they'd also be somebody in impact management.

MR. HARRIS: So there would be a person in 2.5:02 and someone in impact management?

MR. JEANS: That's correct, they would have responsibilities in this area as well as other areas.

MR. HARRIS: I understood from the minister they weren't exclusively - obviously the director wouldn't be exclusively devoted to that but would certainly have responsibilities. If someone in impact management and someone in environmental assessment has responsibilities for this as well as other duties - is there anything that the department has ever put in writing, as departmental policy or views, with respect to how forest management ought to be determined?

MR. JEANS: Well not as such I guess, because the minister has indicated, been involved with forestry in the development of these generic operating guidelines.

MR. HARRIS: Has the department adopted a model for generic operating guidelines?

MR. JEANS: The guidelines that have been produced in conjunction, not only with this department but with other resource agencies, which is wildlife, are the ones that - have now had public involvement and input on as well - are the ones that the minister referred to that have been used for the Cartwright, management district twenty, assessment for review. The intention is to use - the generic guidelines for most projects may be looked at on an individual basis and for any impacts outside that covered by the generic guidelines, there may be additional requirements put to the component, in this case the Department of Forestry and Agriculture.

MR. HARRIS: These guidelines, are these in the form of a response from the minister to a proposal saying: here are the guidelines we want you to follow. Can I get a copy of them for example? Is it a form that I can have a copy of?

MR. JEANS: I would think so, they've had public input and consultation. They are Forestry guidelines put out by that department.

MR. HARRIS: They are not put out by the Department of Environment and Lands.

MR. JEANS: No, but with our endorsement or input in there.

MR. HARRIS: You are saying that you are now satisfied that the Forestry guidelines are satisfactory from an environmental point of view.

MS. COWAN: Well, certainly now, I would never make that kind of a statement. I think it would be foolhardy. We have a set of guidelines now which we feel are the best we can develop to this stage. As they operate over the next few years we may find that they have inadequacies, and I would suspect from time to time we will have a plan of revisiting them and seeing if they are still appropriate. Because there is obviously always room for improvement in anything. But with the knowledge we have at this time we are satisfied.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has expired. I would recognize Mr. Tulk now.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister might like to elaborate on just what it is the department is doing to make people of the Province more aware of the importance of the environment and so on in the Province; she might also want to tell me as part of her mandate, what's happening with car wrecks? They have been an unsightly mess around the Province where they were, what's happening with car wrecks?

MS. COWAN: To answer your first question, we don't have the monies to put into public education that I would like to see available but none of the other provinces have it either. It's a constant battle between what we need in a technology area say to deal with places like Come by Chance, whether to put a public education director or something like that into the department, it's just the decision is always made that while we need the technologist or whatever. I think that a number of the initiatives that we have undertaken do give rise to public awareness. ATV legislation for example, has suddenly made people look at bogs and their significance and that kind of thing.

Now your other question was to do with -

MR. TULK: Car wrecks.

MS. COWAN: Car wrecks. That is proceeding nicely. I think it is going to take three to five years before we see the Province really tidied up because, obviously you just can't wave a magic wand and get every wreck right off the bat. We have three companies that are dealing with car wrecks so we have given employment as a result of our derelict vehicle legislation so I am pleased with that. We have a car shredder in Placentia, or Argentia?

AN HON. MEMBER: Placentia.

MS. COWAN: Placentia. A Labrador crusher and a crusher in the St. John's area and the market right now is very, very good for scrap metal so it's proven to be beneficial not only from the environmental point of view but from an economical point of view as well.

MR. TULK: I would like the minister, if she could, to tell us what is being done by government generally, since she is responsible for environment through the school curriculum, because if we are going to make any lasting change to the environment, obviously one of the things we have to do is to educate our young people as to the importance of the environment. Just what is being done in that area?

MS. COWAN: We have, in conjunction with the Department of Education, developed a text which is quite comprehensive. It's good reading actually for anybody if you want a quick introduction to all the environmental problems in the Province, an interesting text. We don't have any programs that sort of plug in at Kindergarten and carry on throughout the curriculum into Grade XII which I would like to see eventually, but at the moment, studies show that the people, when it comes to litter, are the most problematic in those high school years, but I think that there are a lot of teachers who are so conscious of environment issues that they are finding ways to get it into the curriculum. We spent a lot of time in our department going out to schools. I go out and a public relations person goes out with information to schools quite frequently; I get lots of letters from kids asking me questions and so on so it shows that there is an interest out there by the children and by the teachers in the Province and you are right, it is only through educating these kids. Actually we need, you and I need more education than probably the youngsters because they see so much on t.v.

We have put money for example, into the Small Wonder Program and the under thirteen, an Already Green Program and so on that been highly successful television programs and awareness awakening among that under thirteen age group and we will continue to look for opportunities where we can provide a small amount of funding such as those television programs towards the cause.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Young.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you.

I want to congratulate the minister on all the initiatives that she has undertaken in her term of office. I did serve on the Premier's Round Table on the Environment and Economy and it was a very interesting time when we looked at how we could best accommodate business and in the meantime protect the environment. I am pleased to say though that I am not sitting on the Round Table any longer because it was very demanding with my duties as an MHA, it would have taken up a considerable amount of my time.

I am looking here at page 90, 2.5.03, Pesticides Control and Monitoring. I understand that there is some work going on with agriculture in that area, and I am very pleased that we have two departments working cooperatively because pesticides were used indiscriminately over the years and I am sure that if we could check back over some of the health records of the farmers that certainly the implications of improper use of insecticides, pesticides, probably contributed to some of the health problems. As well, they were damaging to the environment; people were washing out their equipment in brooks and rivers.

This is just wonderful to see, that you have now taken it upon yourselves to educate the farmers as to how to use this properly. I understand there are regulations providing for at least one person on a farm to be educated in that area, and there are restrictions on who can buy insecticides and pesticides. How much cooperation does go on between the different departments?

MS. COWAN: It's good, and I think it's getting better and better because every department is realizing that they have their own responsibilities when it comes to environmental issues, not only sustainable development but of some of these other health\safety issues that you mention. So it's progressing. I think you will find the environment department is probably - no, I'm not even going to say that because I've met some pretty committed forestry people, for example, but we sort of like to think would be in the forefront of encouraging this kind of interaction, and I think there has been a major change over the last four or five years, and partly it's due to questions that have been asked by people on the Round Table and that kind of thing that has been helping that.

MS. YOUNG: Again, probably I should go back to the Round Table. I haven't had a chance to look over the people who have been appointed. I just briefly glanced to look at where these people come from geographically. It's important to have a good mix there, rural people as well as urban people, and I am sure the minister has looked into that.

The other thing, too, I sat on the Discovery Trail Tourism Association and there we were pleased to learn that there is a sustainable tourism brochure, or a report.

MS. COWAN: That was developed and produced, set out last year around this time, I believe.

MS. YOUNG: In cooperation with your department, no doubt.

MS. COWAN: Yes, both the then minister and myself went to the press conference.

MS. YOUNG: Your position is probably one of - of course they are all demanding, but yours is such a controversial area because you have the people who get on their hobby-horse and they're going to protect everything that's out there, and then you also have to deal with the people who are trying to make a living from the land.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. YOUNG: Yes. You're caught between the rock and the hard place because you have a certain group here saying: No we can't do anything at all, and then we have to look at the economy, and it's a very, very difficult position to be in. How do you balance all this? I know that's a loaded question.

MS. COWAN: How do I deal with stress? Well, it is a very difficult question. What we have been doing, I like to be able to take the environment side, so when we get into a situation where we have to balance it with outside environmental assessment, let's say, because environmental assessment is a different kettle of fish here, but say where we're looking at -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Okay, what we do - for example, when it came to what we would do about bottle legislation, whether we would have refund deposit registration, it was decided in Cabinet that the best thing to do, rather than leave it entirely in my hands, because I wanted to be able to look at it as an environmental issue, that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology would become involved so he could look at the impact on business, and then Tourism was there as well, so then we could all put our heads together at the end - I chaired the committee - and come up with something that we felt was satisfactory to present to government that would balance everybody's needs.

It's a constant weighing of demands, but I try to see that our department takes a totally environmental view, and if we want to bring in other views then they come from other departments with maybe a different mandate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister.

It is now 10:30 a.m. so I think we will have a formal break and let everybody stand around and be sociable for a few minutes. I will call the meeting back in about ten minutes time and then we will get on. I will be recognizing Mr. Byrne and then Mr. Harris when we come back. Now we'll have a little break.

 

Recess

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It says here under Environment and Lands, three points. Funding of $150,000 has been provided for the development of a Waste Management Strategic Plan for the Province.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like for you to expand on that and give some details. Is that linked with the plan or the study that is being done now in the northeast Avalon with respect to Robin Hood Bay and the waste disposal on the northeast Avalon?

MS. COWAN: That has been in put in place and been ongoing for a while. I imagine the waste management strategy is going to look at that as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: When do you expect a complete and full report from the northeast Avalon study that is being done, the recommendations or whatever?

MS. COWAN: The end of this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: The preliminary hearings are supposed to be advertised. Are you having them now?

MS. COWAN: Yes. Where are we with the public hearings? I know they are on. Are they finished?

MR. JEANS: Public hearings? Which public hearings?

MR. J. BYRNE: Northeast Avalon. A study being done for the waste disposal in northeast Avalon. I thought it was done.

MR. JEANS: No, there haven't been public hearings organized in connection with this initiative.

MS. COWAN: But no, the regional one.

MR. JEANS: The regional one. I'm sorry, I can't tell you the status of that. It is not our department's initiative.

MS. COWAN: I can check that for you, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Next point. Staff increases have been approved for industrial monitoring and compliance with environmental assessments and for the enforcement of the regulations respecting the use of all-terrain vehicles: $366,000. Can you tell me the number of extra staff that has been employed to enforce the regulations with respect to ATV regulations?

MS. COWAN: We are employing four people, for enforcement. They are to help people design trails, okay, and to provide input in that particular area. Check the trails, see if they are appropriate, and that kind of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Barb. With respect to job loss. There is one company I know here in St. John's that had something like thirty people employed, and since these regulations were announced last fall they are down to nine. That is a fair cut in staff, you know what I mean?

I agree that there should be regulations from Day 1. I had problems with certain regulations and the way it was implemented, right? Did you give any consideration to that, about the job loss in the industry?

MS. COWAN: Certainly. That is one of the reasons why we just chose the most sensitive areas in the Province and we didn't bring in a total ban. Also, we've gone out of our way to make sure that there are opportunities for people to still have access to the wilderness but to do it in a responsible manner. We certainly did take that into account.

You can't just say that the person has lost employees due to the ATV regulations. There could be other things operating in a recessionary climate. I also know that that particular individual sold his quota as the manufacturer set for him and was given a trip as a result of it. I don't think that he suffered tremendously. I'm sorry that three people lost their jobs but I wouldn't say it was ATV -

MR. J. BYRNE: Three?

MS. COWAN: What did you say? From twelve to nine, was it?

MR. J. BYRNE: From thirty-odd people down to nine or something.

MS. COWAN: That sounds drastic. I can't imagine it.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is one company, but I know of another also.

MS. COWAN: But anyway, you know, the thing is that the potential cost to the Province and to employment and everything down the road could be horrendous if we don't put a stop to it. I certainly would not want to see anybody impacted. I hope the ATV hasn't had that kind of impact. It may have some, who knows. We will see as the time goes down the road. I'm hoping that it won't, that we will have a nice network of trails around the Province. People will still buy ATVs and enjoy the wilderness, but do it in a responsible manner.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes, it could be a blip. It may have been. There are all sorts of reasons I suppose it could be, but we will see what happens as time passes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's say it had a major impact anyway on job losses.

MS. COWAN: Something did, anyway.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, with respect to the education program that was announced two days before the regulations came into effect, how much money was allotted or set aside for that? What was the budget?

MS. COWAN: Fifty-six thousand dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty-six thousand dollars. Not a lot of money when you consider the cost of TV ads, is it?

MS. COWAN: It's not a lot. It's certainly a lot more then we normally have to put into programs. I think we'll evaluate it, obviously we'll evaluate it at the end, it's part of every program and if we feel there's need for more educational programs I will try to get the money for it. Of course I can't guarantee I'll get it but I'll try and put the case forward. Of course it was going to be a length of time anyway for it was winter and not having the education program quite ready by the first of March - you know it would have been better ready for the first of March but it wasn't. There's still time for people to be educated before the real use of ATVs will come on this summer.

MR. J. BYRNE: I won't belabour that, time is going by. I believe that those regulations are going to cause problems that we haven't seen yet and will come to light this summer and this fall. In the meantime Barb, I asked you maybe three or four weeks ago a question with respect to the Highway Traffic Act and you were going to -

MS. WAKEHAM: Which?

MR. J. BYRNE: A question with respect to the Highway Traffic Act?

MS. WAKEHAM: Oh yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: You were going to get a letter to me so I - people are phoning me and asking me which is in effect, the Highway Traffic Act or these regulations - I want something to say -

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes and I asked the Department of Justice to provide me with an opinion on whether or not one statute over-rode another set of regulations and I have yet to see an opinion in writing from Justice which I have asked for five times.

MS. COWAN: Maybe I better go to the Minister.

MS. WAKEHAM: My understanding right now, based on my own discussions with Justice, with the Legislative Council and this is why it's complicated, the RCMP and the RNC are the only two groups that are allowed to enforce a Highway Traffic Act. ATVs are not licensed under the Highway Traffic Act, only motor vehicles are licensed under the Highway Traffic Act. My understanding is, both from my discussions with some RCMP and RNC officers, that they are trained to interpret the situation and decide which piece of legislation is most appropriate in the situation. The enforcement officers, the peace officers as are defined within the ATV regulations, with the exception of RNC and the RCMP, are not qualified to enforce the Highway Traffic Act. They only qualify to enforce the ATV regulations. The difficulty is - and you mentioned it to me on the phone - is with respect to (inaudible). I have been told that a specific provision under the ATV regulation supersedes a general provision under a statute. So I am still waiting for something in writing before I get back to you because I had promised you to do that.

MS. COWAN: That's something we need to know to.

MR. J. BYRNE: But from my perspective I thought this was something that would have been and should have been worked out before the regulations came into effect and is one of the problems inherent in those regulations.

MS. WAKEHAM: In all due respect to Justice, I am not a lawyer and therefore I don't make these decisions. My understanding from Justice at the time these regulations were put in place was that the highways act would be enforced by the RCMP and the RNC in that it was a case of - those people were trained to enforce those regulations, to decide what the situation is and to determine which piece of legislation was appropriate in that particular case. We were told at the time that what we had in place, with respect to civic regulations under the resource act, was appropriate. I mean lawyers will tell you that there are many interpretations of the legislation.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to that though, when I do get something from you, from Justice or whoever, I would like for it to be quite definitive, not maybe this and maybe that and the story you people just gave.

MS. COWAN: Jack don't speak to Barbara like that please, speak to me like that. She's my employee if you want to (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I didn't think I was abusive or anything like that, I apologize for it. That's just my personality but what I'm asking for is something quite clear and definitive on that issue.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes, and that's what we're hoping to give you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll now recognize Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Chair. The Member for Terra Nova was asking questions about the Environmental Round Table, I guess it's the Round Table on the Environment and Economy, can the minister tell us how often that Round Table group has met in the last year?

MS. COWAN: No, I can't tell you. Sorry, I don't have the information right with me, I don't know. In this current calendar year?

MR. HARRIS: In the last twelve months, I guess.

MS. COWAN: I don't recall if it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Three or four times?

MR. HARRIS: It has met three or four times, has it?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is why it is a little difficult, because I just heard the Member for Terra Nova saying, there have been sub-committee meetings going on outside the formal committee meetings. Once the sustainable development issue was organized and planned by the Round Table they provided then the opportunity for a lot of other groups outside of the Round Table which aren't represented on it to come and make presentations to areas that they had a particular interest in. If they were looking at sustainable development in forestry then different groups with an interest were invited to come and make a presentation.

MR. HARRIS: Have there been any reports prepared or adopted by the Round Table?

MS. COWAN: A yearly report goes to the Premier - it is his committee - on the activities of the Round Table. Their function is strictly an advisory one to the Premier. It is not anything else.

MR. HARRIS: Have these reports gone anywhere else? Have they been made public?

MS. COWAN: They have not been made public, have they?

AN HON. MEMBER: I don't believe so.

MS. COWAN: As far as I know they haven't been made public. That decision would rest with the Premier.

MR. HARRIS: How many employees are related to that? I see under 1.2.03 $121,000 for Salaries, down from a budget of last year of $156,000. How many employees would be -

MS. COWAN: We have two giving half-time, Jack.

MR. HARRIS: Two half-time employees for a total of $121,000?

MS. COWAN: They have a secretary as well.

MR. HARRIS: This is page 82. I don't know where it is in the other....

MS. COWAN: Anyway, the two half-time and a secretary. Is there any money built in there for any consultation services, Frank?

MR. F. HARRIS: No.

MS. COWAN: No. Okay. We do, Jack, contract out as well from time to time to get information that we need. The University has done some work for us.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. There is $21,000 there for Purchased Services. This is for reports that are not made public, to date.

MS. COWAN: There hasn't been a great hue and cry for it, I must say.

MR. HARRIS: Pardon?

MS. COWAN: As far as I'm aware there haven't been people lining up to get it, you know.

MR. HARRIS: We are spending $189,000 or proposing to spend $189,000 on it. I'm in the line-up to see whether that $189,000 is being well spent. I want to ask the minister whether she can tell us what the results of this Round Table on the Environment and the Economy have been. It has been in the budget now for several years.

MS. COWAN: They are developing now a report on sustainable development. I don't think you measure these things in results right off the bat. It takes a while for a group like that to get itself settled in. I mean, like concrete results. I think the actual dialogue that has gone on has been extremely valuable. We've got some key people from around the Province on this board. This study on sustainable development is a two-, three- perhaps even a four-year project.

MR. HARRIS: When did it start?

MS. COWAN: About a year and a half ago.

MR. HARRIS: The aim of this group is to produce a definitive report on sustainable development, is that the idea?

MS. COWAN: I don't know what you mean by definitive.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I -

MS. COWAN: Is it going to be the be-all and the end-all for the -

MR. HARRIS: - suppose -

MS. COWAN: - sustainable development problems in the world? I don't think so.

MR. HARRIS: There have been models for sustainable development. The Bruntlind commission did a very comprehensive world view of the notion of sustainable development. It seems to me that I don't think we are going to be competing with that for producing a report. That might have taken two or three years to develop but I am just trying to get a handle here on why we are spending this money and whether or not this information is going to be accessible to the public because we are being asked to vote $189,000 for this environmental Round Table so can the minister say when this report will be available.

MS. COWAN: No, I can't say when it will be ready for presentation to the Premier. It is a framework Jack, that they are setting up for sustainable development within the Province so the very nature of the package as a framework should limit the amount of time has to go into it.

MR. HARRIS: Who is in charge of this Round Table? You said they send reports to the Premier, but who calls the meetings?

MS. COWAN: The meetings are called by the Chair.

MR. HARRIS: And who is the Chair?

MS. COWAN: Judy Raoul. Judy Raoul works with the LIA and is situated in Nain. She has quite an extensive background in environmental work.

MR. HARRIS: Okay.

MS. COWAN: She is the new Chair now.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, and who are the half-time positions who are there now?

MS. COWAN: You want the names or the people?

MR. HARRIS: Well I presume that there are particular positions in your department who are assigned responsibility for the Environmental Round Table.

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Who are they?

MS. COWAN: Director of Policy and Planning is the one individual and the other individual, I don't know what his title is, he works as a sort of assistant.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: He works as an analyst; okay, a policy analyst.

MR. HARRIS: So there is a Director of Policy and Planning and there is a policy analyst as well?

AN HON. MEMBER: And a secretary.

MR. HARRIS: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: And a secretary.

MR. HARRIS: And a secretary; so the secretary is a full time position and the Director of Policy and Planning and the policy analyst are half-time positions, so half of their time is devoted to this particular activity. Do these people report to Judy Raoul or do they report to you as minister, with respect to their duties?

MS. COWAN: Oh no, they don't report to me. I am a member of the committee without any particular status as the minister, I am just there.

MR. HARRIS: You are a member of the Round Table?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: So then, you could tell us what the deadline, what the time frame is for -

MS. COWAN: No, I can't.

MR. HARRIS: You can't?

MS. COWAN: I can't, no. If it's there I have forgotten but, you know, I will double check it for you, Jack.

MR. HARRIS: So the whole committee has met three or four times in the last year and produces an annual report to the Premier which is not made public?

MS. COWAN: To date it hasn't been made public, no.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a reason why it is not made public, is it a secret -

MS. COWAN: Well I mean, it is looked at as an internal document you know, I don't think it is a matter of great secrecy; I could certainly look into the fact of whether or not we could make it available publicly. To date, as I said, people haven't requested it so it is not an issue that we have had to deal with, and it is advice to the Premier and advice to the Premier is not normally made public, but I can certainly check with him to see if he (inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Well, please consider this as a formal request for a copy of the annual reports of the Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. Some of these things have a way of surfacing down the road and sometimes we sit in on debates and people quoting lines from various things, so it is nice to have them in advance so you know what you are talking about.

A question for the Member for Terra Nova. Again, there seems to be inherent in her questions some sort of total dichotomy between making a living off the land and having a sustainable environment. Is that the way the minister sees it, as a competition between people who want to do nothing to anything and people who are just trying to make a living? Is that the way the minister views the questions that arise in environment - or does the minister believe that it is important that when we do make a living off the land that the land remains intact for future generations?

MS. COWAN: I think you are putting words in her mouth. I am going to try and remain gracious because I do not think there is any need for that. I do not want to get into a fight with you about it but I certainly did not hear the Member for Terra Nova saying that. She is extremely conscious of environmental issues and would not dream of saying such a thing.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I did get my ears tested the other day but that was for the level of hearing and not for when I did hear something that I heard it correctly. I heard the member say that there were those who wanted to do nothing and those who were trying to make a living from the land, and the minister was moved to reply that you came down on the side of the environment, so I am not going to rehash the case.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has expired and I now recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a few questions on the anti-litter campaign, the Canadian Soft Drink Association. You may have covered this earlier, yesterday or whenever, but I have a note here, why is the overall program by the CSDA not just soft drink bottles because I am associating this with the legislation that was never brought in in term of the bottles type of thing. Why would the Canadian Soft Drink Association be funding the whole program for materials other than related to just soft drinks?

MS. COWAN: They are not. There are two prongs to the program, a two-prong program. The Canadian Soft Drink Association is working with the Canadian Packaging and Stewardship Initiative and they are going to be putting money into it as well, but at this point the Canadian Soft Drink Association sees it in their best interest to put money into the education program.

MR. J. BYRNE: To put $2 million into the education program.

MS. COWAN: Is it $2 million?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: They are hoping that the idea will catch on. It seemed to do this very successfully in the state of Texas where they found other people clamouring to come on board because they wanted their corporate stamp on it as well so they could be associated with it. We are looking forward that perhaps other groups around the Province will get involved with it as well, not necessarily packaging people. I do not mean that because they are involved with the CIPSI program, but some of the other people with money in business.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think when this was announced in the media, when you made your address, whatever, the public got the idea that the Canadian Soft Drink Association were paying the $2 million for the education program but in actual fact they were putting one cent a can on the product so the public in actual fact are paying for this program?

MS. COWAN: Well, obviously it is business, you know, so they are, but if we had put a deposit refund on it, it probably would have been a good deal more than one cent, so it still not a lot to ask. It will be applied to a good cause and when studies are done of people they do not mind putting a modest amount of money into programs that are going to work.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that people do not mind, and I personally would not mind myself paying extra for a Province clean-up type of thing, but basically what I am saying is that it is a bit misleading when people think that the Canadian Soft Drink Association is paying for this out of their own pockets when they are not.

MS. COWAN: Well, it could well be, and we as a society have been trained to think that everybody else will look after us.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the criteria in place for the effect, now how long will you let this go on before you say, okay, we see some positive results here or we are not getting positive results therefore we will bring in legislation?

MS. COWAN: In two years and four years. We will examine this CSDA and hire an individual to do a benchmark type study in the Province so we know the state of litter in the Province today, and in two years they will hire a third party to do the same study based on the same scientific methodology and see if there is a reduction, report it to us, and then we will decide if it is satisfactory or not. Then at the end of the four year period there will be a total evaluation again when we want to meet certain levels.

I think they said they can bring it down by 70 per cent in the four years.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much?

MS. COWAN: By 70 per cent. That is general litter.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, if they do not bring it down by 70 per cent, say if they bring it down by 35 per cent?

MS. COWAN: Well, obviously it has not worked. Then we will have to reach into our hip pocket and find something else.

MR. J. BYRNE: The awards program will be sponsored by the city or town to recognize outstanding organization by the people who will get involved in this type of thing. Is there going to be anything put in place that will actually recognize the cities or the municipalities, whatever, that promote this?

MS. COWAN: Certainly they are working closely with the municipalities. The program is largely left up to CSDA and CIPSI, the packaging people, to work out. My department's input into the actual program is somewhat limited. We've just said: It looks like a good idea. They've shown enough of it to us to impress us that they can do something. I haven't examined every facet of their program but I do know that they are very anxious to get municipalities involved. Because they realize that - see, one of the parts of the program is aimed at waste reduction. We really want municipalities involved. They have been out already meeting with municipalities as you may be aware across the Province and trying to get them involved.

I think I'm going to have them come in and speak to our caucus. I'm sure they would be available to talk to your caucus. That would be the best place to ask that particular question.

MR. J. BYRNE: In reading this report, or this presentation, the general perception out there is that Newfoundlanders have garbage going everywhere type of thing, but in the clear-cut areas we are one of the cleaner provinces.

MS. COWAN: Yes, that was sort of pleasing to hear, because we tend to have a sort of bad feeling about ourselves in everything. But we still have a long way to go. They must be really bad in other parts of Canada.

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm clued up with my questions. I would just like to make a comment that I've asked a fair number of questions and I like getting good, direct, complete answers. I think Frank has done a good job on that, and I appreciate the answers from the minister. I'm sure I will be asking lots more in the House next session.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Jack, for coming along. I appreciate it, and certainly your questions have given some rise to some thoughts for me for the future.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Byrne. Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you. I wanted to raise the issue of this program in the context of the Waste Management Strategic Plan that is now being funded to the tune of $150,000. I know that this organization that the Canadian Soft Drink Manufacturers Association has created is talking about waste reduction. I'm wondering: What about the 15 per cent of our landfill material that comes from beverage containers? Does the minister expect that will be reduced or eliminated? Does the minister plan to have the Waste Management Strategic Plan deal with that issue in terms of the -

MS. COWAN: Of reduction?

MR. HARRIS: - possibilities of getting rid of the majority of that 15 per cent of the garbage that now ends up in landfills?

MS. COWAN: We are going to have to make a study and just see exactly - this is why we want to do this base study and $150,000 has been given to us this year. We've got a lot of problems in waste management, Mr. Harris, in this Province, and beverage containers is probably the least of them. I'm talking now in terms not of what appears in our ditches and that kind of thing, but what goes into the actual waste fill sites.

Our major problem I guess would be, in trying to address your question, is how at this moment we deal with waste generally in this Province. Will we move to a regional way of dealing with it; will we allow incinerators to be built; or if we do, what type of incinerators will they be, how many incinerators are we going to have in the Province? We have to leave municipalities to organize their landfills and so on in an appropriate fashion because there are really few municipalities that are now - everything is a jumble; it just gets dumped into a dump. They're really dumps; they're not sanitary landfills.

We've got significant problems in this Province because of our geography. We don't have enough topsoil to have sanitary landfills, so we're going to be addressing a large number of issues, and if that survey shows again that what you're saying is a real problem then I am sure they will make recommendations to us, but there are a lot of other things; like construction materials are a real problem. We should be encouraging composting. Do we want to have municipalities composting? There are just a lot of ways to reduce what goes into our landfills.

MR. HARRIS: I understand the strategic problems, and I recognize that there are a lot of strategic problems in terms of organizing waste management. One of the ways, and it's part of the three r's that the minister occasionally talks about, to reduce the amount of waste that goes into waste sites, whether they be garbage dumps or sanitary landfills or whatever, I find it disconcerting that the minister would suggest the fact that 15 per cent of the landfill refuse is, in fact, soft drink containers, that that's the least of the problems. I find that disconcerting if the minister sees that in a different category, but I do understand the other problems.

I want to get into statistics here because sometimes when you raise this issue of refillable containers, for example, or having a deposit refund system, the first thing you hear about it is, well, it's going to cost jobs. Perhaps the minister could tell us what information was provided to the committee that she sat on in terms of the costs to the economy of jobs that would be lost. Was there any indication given that there would be a certain number of specific jobs, or specific plants that would close, or people who would be gone?

MS. COWAN: Well the Canadian Soft Drink Association will tell you that if you bring in a deposit refund system that they will immediately lose ground from a business point of view and it will lead to lay-offs because people will turn to different types of beverages to drink rather than soft drinks, so they see that as a problem.

MR. HARRIS: This is like jobs in Halifax making Coca Cola?

MS. COWAN: Or jobs in Newfoundland with the local soft drink company. We only have one soft drink place or containerization place or whatever.

MR. HARRIS: Could you tell us how many jobs would be lost at that one place if...?

MS. COWAN: Oh, I don't know how many people work at Browning Harvey - 250 or 300, something like that.

MR. HARRIS: I didn't ask you how many people worked at Browning Harvey, because -

MS. COWAN: Well, they're the only place in the Province that does bottling.

MR. HARRIS: I didn't ask how many worked there. I asked you: Did anyone tell you how many jobs would be lost?

MS. COWAN: No, I don't have an exact figure on that.

MR. HARRIS: Has the government considered that issue as an important one, or is it something that is just another one of the arguments? Was that an important issue?

MS. COWAN: First of all, there is one other thing I want to address because you made an erroneous statement there at first, and I want to clarify it, about landfills.

One of the reasons that we did not totally go with the Canadian Soft Drink Association, we would have not gone on it as a stand-alone way to deal with litter and management of waste disposal sites in the Province. The only way we would go with it was with the cooperation of the packaging group, because that is the reduction aspect of it, and they will be looking for other markets.

MR. HARRIS: But they're not cooperating, are they?

MS. COWAN: Yes, they're cooperating - indeed they are - or we would never have gone ahead with the announcement that we made last week or the week before. They are cooperating. We are expecting a business plan from them in the fall, and they are going to be the ones who are going to start developing with the municipalities recycling programs. They are going to look for markets for us so that the various soft drink containers that are put out, whatever method they use for collecting these, they will be recycled wherever possible. It is not just a method of it all going into landfills. As you know, the recycling industry is driven by the demands of the marketplace, so it depends what is particularly buoyant at the time. Right now there is not a market for plastic, for example.

MR. HARRIS: So there was no study done by the government to determine specifically how many jobs might be lost in that particular industry or in that particular plan.

MS. COWAN: No, but we also looked, Mr. Harris, at the impact on small business. ITT did do a survey of small businesses around the Province to see - we have a lot of small convenience stores and that kind of thing - how this was going to affect them. They felt that it would have a real impact on their ability to be viable. Because they are going to have to enlarge their premises and there are all kinds of problems and things of that nature.

MR. HARRIS: This is if they were required to accept deposits.

MS. COWAN: Pardon?

MR. HARRIS: This is if they were required by government to accept refunds.

MS. COWAN: With the deposit-refund system, yes.

MR. HARRIS: Did the minister have a study done of how many jobs would be created by having a refillable or recyclable deposit-refund system, what that would do to the economy in terms of creating jobs and job opportunities in green jobs, we will call them that.

MS. COWAN: Because again so many of these jobs are dependent on the marketplace. You can't predict that suddenly there is going to be great demand for plastic containers or whatever. We do know that there is a tremendous demand for paper and it was very important for us to bring the newspaper industry aboard in connection with this.

MR. HARRIS: Can we get back to beverage containers? Because this seems to be the area in which throughout the country and in the United States governments, when they've taken action, have been able to get a handle on the waste, with a 98 per cent return on beer bottles, for example, or over 90 per cent on others. It seems that is an area where governments can take some action, setting up a system that eliminates as much as 15 per cent of the waste that goes to landfills, and at the same time, in my view, create jobs in fact, and green jobs, or green employment I think it is called in some places. That incentives are there for people to look after the environment and look after themselves.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, may I make a point of order?

MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Point of order, please. I'm certainly only too happy, I have the patience of a saint, but I have answered all of these questions last night. If you want me to answer them again I'm only too happy to do so, because I feel that what we are doing as a government is very important. But is there any kind of situation here where we have to answer the same questions that were asked the night before and possibly go on for months?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, I will let Mr. Harris speak to the point of order.

MR. HARRIS: To the point of order, I will speak to the point of order. My question is: Did the minister do any studies in terms of job gains and job losses?

MS. COWAN: I was quite happy to address that.

MR. HARRIS: That is what I suggested. Given the fact that there are advantages in terms of green jobs that are on the other end - the industry might talk about potential job losses, and I'm not even sure where that comes in, but -

MS. COWAN: To that -

MR. HARRIS: - that is why I'm asking whether the minister has done any studies. I'm not asking her to defend the soft drink industry. I'm asking her whether her department in making its decision about what approach to take, whether the minister did any studies on the

job gains that would be there, if you had an incentive system for beverage containers, recycling and using refillable deposit refund systems?

MS. COWAN: That was not the last question. Well to continue to the point of order, I was only to happy to answer that question because it wasn't the one asking for new information it was the one regarding other governments actions which I thought I dealt with. I know he doesn't like the answer but -

MR. CHAIRMAN: The only thing minister is, really to the point of order, there's no point of order because I think in committee you can ask questions as much as you like. They might not like the answers but I think they can continue to ask questions and of course some time this committee will come to a conclusion albeit, if we run out of time or if the heads are passed then that's it. As far as asking a question, there's no point of order.

MS. COWAN: Yes fine, Mr. Chair, I'm quite comfortable with that decision.

MR. HARRIS: Now I guess I'll have to ask the question again.

MS. COWAN: About other governments?

MR. HARRIS: No, I said we know that where other governments have introduced these plans they've produced tremendous reductions in contributions to landfill waste and they've also generated jobs, green jobs. So I wanted to know whether or not the minister and the government in making this decision did a study that would compare the potential - and I only say potential job losses because I don't know exactly where these jobs are supposed to be lost in Browning Harvey or wherever - as opposed to the benefits in terms of jobs for those who would be involved in collecting, recycling and refilling these containers for those that are refillable, recycling for those that are recyclable because as I say and I have to preface this because there's a lot of study that has been done on this, it seems to be clear that even when there's a recycling program only 20 per cent of beverage containers are actually being collected. So if you have a system that provides incentives and give incentives for refillable containers and provides a system like that, my understanding is that there would be job gains. Now the minister may have a different view and I ask whether or not the department did any studies and whether those studies could be made available comparing the job losses that are suggested versus the job gains that might be available?

MS. COWAN: I don't have a study -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: If you have reports from other provinces, if you could substantiate that, if you have material you could provide to me on it, I'd certainly be interested in looking at it. We all know that there is definitely an opportunity for green industries. They could come from all different sources. Consulting, for example, in the environmental atmosphere now has become a very lucrative area to be in. I couldn't and I don't know whether there are studies in fact that would show just exactly what happens because every province has such a different way of going about it that it would be very difficult to compare and see what program would produce more jobs in the green, how that would balance out against what they lost in non-green and that kind of thing. So I think it would be very, very difficult information to gather together but certainly if you have any Jack, I'd be delighted to -

MR. HARRIS: Well let me say to you, minister, that when I brought up this issue to another minister I heard a response which was; we would lose 100 jobs. So I'm wondering whether that figure is a figure that you're department has generated, whether it's based on a study or whether it's just based on anecdotal comments by the owner of Browning Harvey?

MS. COWAN: My department doesn't generate statistics on unemployment. We try to look at things from the environmental viewpoint at all times and that's why Industry, Trade and Technology were invited to come on board to provide that particular information. I have never heard the figure of 100 jobs. I don't know who you've talked to or anything. I can't comment on that.

MR. HARRIS: What you are saying basically then is that the department or the government has done no studies on the employment positives or negatives that would come out of a deposit-refund system.

MS. COWAN: Well, no, we haven't done any actual studies. I think it is only good sense to realize that there would be immediate job loss. We have felt there would be modest employment, but again it is all market driven. I can't, nor can anyone else, predict what is going to happen in the marketplaces.

MR. HARRIS: So the minister is making an assumption that if you fill up a container more than once there will be immediate job losses.

MS. COWAN: No, I'm not making that assumption.

MR. HARRIS: That is what I'm hearing you say. That it only makes sense that if you have a refillable deposit-refund system there would be a job loss. I'm just wondering what the minister bases that on, because that is not immediately obvious to me.

MS. COWAN: I didn't say that. That is all I have to say on that, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HARRIS: Okay. I think we have the answers though as to whether or not there were studies.

The minister I'm sure must be aware of some of the activities of organizations such as FLOW, I think is one, Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford River. There is another group in St. John's that is involved in the Virginia River clean up. Obviously the Quidi Vidi-Rennies River foundation has been very active as well. I want to say to the minister firstly that I think these projects are tremendously important, both inherently because they actually do clean up these rivers and re-divert sewage that is not supposed to be going into them into the proper sewers and various other things, but they also have a tremendous synergistic effect on residents, certainly of St. John's in this particular instance, or visitors to the City, in recognizing that the environment is part of the City as well as part of the countryside. It does encourage a lot of people to get involved and care about how we treat the environment and therefore ourselves, because we have to live in it.

To what level of involvement is the minister's department in some of these activities? Is there a program that assists them in any way?

MS. COWAN: We provided a tremendous amount of money. How much was it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Two hundred and fifty thousand to Quidi Vidi.

MS. COWAN: Two hundred and fifty thousand to the Quidi Vidi group, because it was the first one sort of off the ground. We gave that money out to them over a period of four or five years. That funding has now ended. At this point we are only too happy to give any in-kind services we can to any of these groups, but happy to report the excellent work that has been done by these groups in St. John's that is being now emulated by people across the Province. I'm familiar with the Manuels River because it is in my constituency. They've been finding it relatively easy to raise funds, because these things seem to capture the imagination of people in the community. Funding, while it always remains an issue, and no one ever has enough money to meet the plans that they have, and their reach always exceeds their grasp, which is great, but in the particular financial, fiscal situation we find ourselves now, we are not in a position any more to give seed monies or anything to these groups.

Perhaps the day will come when we can. We do give guidance to groups as to where they will find monies. If you are working with rivers you can sometimes get money through the Salmonoid Council, you can get it through the Department of Fisheries, federal and provincial. There are quite a few other government agencies where you can find some monies. Certainly some of the money that goes to employment generation programs out of the employment program, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations program, a lot of it goes into those types of activities as well. So there is some.

MR. HARRIS: I am not one of those who believes that government should find monies to do everything, and be the cause of everything, and this is one area, I think, where citizen initiative and participation is perhaps more important than government taking the initiative, because it's become so that the people of a community get ownership of the project and that sort of thing. I recognize that, and I think it's one area where the department can be of great assistance by being available in terms of providing expertise, and I am delighted to hear the minister say that she is encouraging that type of activity across the Province because I think sometimes not everything that happens in St. John's is bad -

MS. COWAN: Oh, definitely in that case it has been terrific.

MR. HARRIS: - although some people might like to think so, but what is being done, and I echo the words of the Member for Fogo, what is being done in those rivers is a credit to the people who are involved in it. You just go and walk along the Waterford River now and there is a hell of a lot of be done still, but I remember as a child swimming in Bowring Park - when it was fit to swim in, and I am not even sure it was fit to swim in then, but we certainly swam in it and the public swam in it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Then there was a time when they had to close that down. They closed off the dam, and it has never been used again, as a river goes, for swimming, and I think it's a shame that has happened, but I think it's a great credit to the people who are involved in it.

MS. COWAN: And maybe we'll swim in it again some day.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, and Quidi Vidi has been changed tremendously over the last ten years as a result of their activity and others, and I think that example can travel well throughout the Province and provide an example, so I take it that the minister is committed to having her officials and departmental staff available for technical advice to groups who need assistance in that. I know that there are a number of programs, environmental partners and other things, done on a federal level that are involved. Is there someone in the minister's department who is designated to - maybe the word is community liaison, or somebody who is advising these groups, or is there to make sure these groups are not looked after but at least know what's available from government, because the government can coordinate, I suppose, and make information available. Is there a particular person in your department who is assigned to coordinate and be a liaison and be a governmental assistant\friend to those organizations?

MS. COWAN: Not exactly, but our water resources division, the director there is available to give any of this advice. That individual isn't designated as a community liaison person, but is in the position to give that advice as is needed.

MR. HARRIS: Would the minister consider asking someone in the department to prepare perhaps a brochure or some sort of guideline or guide to make available to communities who might want to get involved in projects for reclaiming the environment, reclaiming these rivers.

MS. COWAN: I have certainly been wanting to do that kind of thing. It's just a matter largely of time and funding to do it. It's something that I think we can look to do as time passes. Just how quickly it will be, like the waste management study, it is really important to get that under way right now and so on. We will always have these competing priorities, but it's something - I would like to have a community liaison person for the department. No other environment department in Canada has one. In fact, most of them are even losing their policy developers, which is most unfortunate. It hasn't happened here yet as far as policy developers go.

One of my goals, which I may never reach, is to get a community liaison person, but I will have a look, see if we have the time and the money to, perhaps through our public relations budget or something, start developing, even if we can't get a brochure out, perhaps some sort of file or whatever -

MR. HARRIS: It seems to me that there are enough examples -

MS. COWAN: Oh, definately.

MR. HARRIS: - in our own communities to draw on and give help - because we could, through a very small project like that, inspire a number of groups across the Province to become active.

MS. COWAN: The other thing we do that I found very effective is that new groups starting up often call on the Manuels River people or the Quidi Vidi people or whatever, and they are very willing to say: This is how we started, these are the groups we turned to for advice, and so on. They provide that role too and seem to be very gracious about doing it.

MR. HARRIS: My last area that I would like to talk about this morning is the area of management of government's own waste. We've discussed this a couple of times before. I think through questioning over various estimates committees I think we finally got - I think the most we got out of it so far was garbage cans in the House of Assembly under our desks.

AN HON. MEMBER: To put candy wrappers in.

MR. HARRIS: That is where we can put our candy wrappers or other important government documents that -

MS. COWAN: That you are lurking around waiting for.

MR. HARRIS: I know that the government - at least Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has invested heavily in shredders in the last several months. I don't know whether the shredded product went to any recycling project or whether it was carted off by the shredders as part of their contract. What I want to ask about is government's own programs within government buildings. I know that there seems to be a voluntary effort by some employees within the government to raise money. I think there are thermometers around a few cafeterias indicating how much this project has managed to gather in terms of papers in pounds and dollars for - I'm not sure what charities. I believe it might be the Janeway or some other organization.

MS. COWAN: It varies, I guess, from department to department.

MR. HARRIS: Aside from that, which I recognize obviously government has to tolerate at least in order for it to go on, what has your department done to establish the government itself in its operations, particularly at Confederation Building, where there is a large amount of products being used, what efforts has your department made to formulate and create a model for -

MS. COWAN: You want to know what we've done ourselves?

MR. HARRIS: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Just let me get my book. We are doing great things. There is one thing I would like to clarify. The Department of Works, Services and Transportation is the key department in this for the whole of government. We have worked with them to develop the initiatives that are now taking place as far as paper is concerned. Not only will you see the monies that we may have made, which are really not very large, but they go to good causes, but that so many trees were saved in the past quarter or whatever. That type of information is put in place.

Every department in government is now participating in the program to look at paper recycling. Nova Recycling comes in and picks up the paper in a routine manner. It is the job of every minister to make sure that these activities regarding the reduction or the recycling of paper are carried out. Mr. Efford is really committed to it and gives reports at Cabinet, lectures those departments that are falling behind, and that kind of thing.

In my department we do feel keenly that we have to set an example for the whole Province, plus the whole government offices. Plus the fact that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: The WRAP committee. Within our department we not only recycle paper, we recycle all kinds of other containers. We've done experimenting with compost, with what lunches are left. People tried composting, that kind of thing. We have a WRAP committee, which stands for the Waste Reduction Action Plan. You will now find that instead of going out and buying little yellow pads to write your telephone notes on you may look on the back of it and see that it was a paper that was used for some letter that didn't quite turn out, that we didn't like the wording of or whatever, and it has been sliced up and staples have been put in and you are using that now to write your little notes on.

We've made a commitment, and I don't know what it is - Frank, if you know - to reduce the amount of paper we use in our offices by a certain amount at a certain time. We take all our pay envelopes for example that come in. They are recycled. They go back to Frank's office and will be used again, time and time again, for our pay cheques. We have little periodic visits by the - what do they call themselves? - the green police who check out offices to see what they're doing and give awards to individuals who are doing a good job.

MR. HARRIS: Who are the green police now?

MS. COWAN: Just some people in the department who belong to this WRAP group, the committee that sort of has overall responsibility. Paper is really significant of course in government as you well know and they'll go on to other areas as well. Have I missed anything that we do?

MS. WAKEHAM: Well we're recycling aluminium cans.

MS. COWAN: Yes, all that stuff is recycled as well, yes.

MR. JEANS: And cardboard.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Yes, those are all my questions, Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister and her officials for answering the questions that they answered.

MS. COWAN: And thank you, Jack. I think I should be congratulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait until we get the heads called will you, minister? ll give you time to make your statement after that.

MS. COWAN: No, I was going to compliment him but I can do that in private.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright, if no one else wants to ask any questions of the minister I'm going to ask the Clerk to call the heads from 1.1:01 to 3.3:05 inclusive.

On motion, Department of Environment and Lands, total heads, carried.

We'll adjourn for five minutes until the Member for Terra Nova comes back.

 

Recess

 

MR. CHAIRMAN: So before we clue up I hope that the students who were here this morning enjoyed themselves. I hope that the young lady who expressed some interest in becoming a politician hasn't become disillusioned. I would like to thank the minister for coming and answering the questions that were put by the Committee and I thank the Committee for the great job that they did in asking the minister questions. So Minister I'd like to thank you and your officials again.

MS. COWAN: It's usually education and health that go on for hours and hours and hours. I claim that I have the most important ministry in government. Maybe the length of time it's taken to go over all these issues is a reinforcement of that position, that I like to take, that it is indeed the most important and certainly becoming recognized far and wide as being one of the most important or it ought to be the most important.

The Committee adjourned.