The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

Perhaps we could get started and do these Estimates dealing with the Department of Human Resources and Employment.

Before we start, I would like to welcome the minister and her officials here this evening. I'm sure you know the drill by now. We generally permit the minister to make some introductory remarks. We usually say to try to keep that to fifteen minutes but we are not terribly strict on that point.

The procedure that we have followed is that we will call the first head and all the discussions will occur around that. In other words, we will not be calling each individual head. That has been the practice in the past and unless my co-chair says something differently I think that is the procedure we will continue to follow in this sitting this evening.

I would just remind the officials that when they do respond to a question if they would state their names for the purposes of the gentleman standing up there and looking down at us.

Having said that, I don't think there are any other introductory remarks I need to say at this time. So now to you, Madam Minister.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm joined this evening here by my Deputy Minister, Wayne Green, who I think some of you know, and my ADM, Dave Roberts, who I think attended last year's Estimates Committee meeting as well.

I thought what I would do, just with my opening comments, would be to kind of give you a picture of the department and what our goals are, and the priority areas that we have been focusing on for the past year that will be evident to you as we go through some of the budget numbers. Because the direction we have taken and the priorities we have established certainly underpin the way we have allocated resources in the department.

Members will realize we have undergone a complete reorganization as a department. As of last April, we became in fact the Department of Human Resources and Employment not only in name but also in structure. Because at that time of course the functions associated with child protection and welfare, family and rehabilitative services, and youth corrections, were transferred to the Department of Health and Community Services. This department became, in fact, focused on the two areas which I describe as our line of business, as being that of income support and employment and career services.

The key goals and directions that we have as a department are trying to address what we consider to be some of the systemic issues that are associated with social assistance and with some of the social issues related to poverty in the Province. So we have as our key goals in the department right now to try and reduce the level of reliance on income support that exists in the Province, while at the same time providing support for those who are unable to work. I think we have recognized that there has to be a balance, that we have to do everything we can to help those who are able to work be able to find and maintain that employment, but also provide good and respectful support to people who are unable to work.

We recognize that child poverty and the issue of children and families who require financial support is a major one, and of course our aim, not only as a department but as a government, is to try and reduce child poverty as it exists within the Province today. I would say, again, that pertains to children and families, whether they receive social assistance or whether they don't receive social assistance.

A major goal for the department is to try and help people find and keep employment. I guess another one would be to try and address, in a particular way, groups and individuals who have unique needs, unique barriers. They face special barriers to employment. I refer to, specifically, people with disabilities, youth, women and others who may have very unique circumstances that cause them to face special barriers more so than the rest of the population.

Those are the main things that we are trying to achieve as a department. It is a long-term plan, a long-term goal in all of these areas, because as with any kind of social action and social development the results you achieve are incremental and take a long time to really produce the kind of results that we are looking for. Hence in our Strategic Social Plan we have set five years out as being the kind of time frame when we would be able to report back to people on progress in the areas of social development.

Some of the priority areas we are working on this year that, again, are reflected in our budget picture are in the area of income support redesign. This is a major thrust for the department. We have been working on it for a year now. In this year's budget we introduced a number of smaller measures which are all intended to move the system of financial support from where it was, as something that we considered to be very passive, something that creates dependency, that is difficult for people to be self-reliant on, to something that is much more active. So we have introduced a number of programs and measures - earning exemptions for people on social assistance, allowing people to keep RESPs, for example the Registered Education Savings Plan and so on - that we consider to be small moves to try and change the system, and change the underpinnings of the system.

Another key area that we have focused on is the development of our employment and career services side. We have started to make the shift with our human resources from one which primarily supports the function of providing people with cheques, with financial assistance, to one which helps them with counselling, with employment services, and with guidance towards the kind of steps they can take to get themselves into the workforce and to try and maintain that kind of work.

Last year when I spoke to you I said that 90 per cent of the staff that we have in the department is dedicated towards the income support side in the context of really making sure that people get the right amount of money they are entitled to under social assistance, making sure that it is done properly, and trying to fix the natural things that happen with a very complicated and outdated program.

We are starting to make a change because where we want to get to is to have 75 per cent of our people working with our clients on employment and career services and only 25 per cent really consumed with making sure people get the right financial assistance. That will require us to change the program immensely and simplify it, because right now we have over ninety-nine codes that our staff have to try and work with to determine what you are eligible for, and it is fraught with the potential for error. So that is an area that we are really working hard on.

We have a number of employment programs of course that are aimed at students, at young people and also at the public at large. We have some very good success rates with these employment programs. We are trying to build on that and develop a range of services that will best suit our clients and people who are looking for these kinds of supports in order to be able to get into the workforce.

The third priority area that I would focus on - and then I will pass it over and just respond to your questions - is in the area of partnerships. One of the things we are trying to do is to develop strong partnerships with community based organizations in order to really work with people who can best deliver services to different facets of our client base.

I will give you the example of SPAN, the Single Parents Association of Newfoundland pilot project. In that case we have entered into a partnership with this Association to deliver employment and career services to single parents and to try and provide the kind of supports that they need in order to make the transition into the workforce. The preliminary results are really positive. The pilot program has been working since last July. They are running at over 50 per cent in terms of finding and keeping employment for the single parents who have come through the program. By all accounts, from the single parents I have talked to from the Association itself, it is working well. This is the type of partnership I think we need to expand on in a lot of other areas.

We are working with women's groups, with Women In Successful Employment, we are working in partnership with places like the T.I. Murphy Centre. We feel it is this kind of community based groups which know best what the needs are of their clientele, which can best provide the kind of atmosphere that they can respond to and operate in. Where possible, we will be building these kinds of partnerships in delivering our services and we will become more facilitators of these partnerships than direct delivers.

So that is where we are going as a department. There are probably any number of other key areas that we are working on, but that gives you a little bit of a snapshot of the things we are primarily focused on, the direction we are going in and the goals we are trying to achieve. With that I will conclude.

CHAIR: Thank you, Madame Minister.

I did omit, in my introductory remarks, to ask the members of the Committee to introduce themselves. So starting at my far right, could you identify yourself and your constituency?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne, St. John's South.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, Burin-Placentia West.

MR. LUSH: Tom Lush, Terra Nova.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons, Burgeo & LaPoile.

CHAIR: As I say, I apologize for that, ladies and gentlemen.

One other item of business, and perhaps we should dispense with that first, is the minutes of the previous meeting, at which we considered the Estimates of the Department of Justice.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would now ask the Vice-Chair to begin his questioning. Since you are kind of alone this evening Tom, if you feel like you want to take a break we can pass it to someone else and then we can come back to you. That's not a problem.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. We will leave that open.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess part of the reason I am here myself this evening is my other Committee members are on the road, as you know. Your critic is not well today so she is not in, but barring that I don't think we will keep you too long. I understand you have a caucus function tonight. We will leave some of the questions for the critic to ask in the House.

MS BETTNEY: There you go.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have just a couple of questions pertaining to the Estimates themselves. I notice that there was a decrease this year. The amount budgeted last year and the revised, the amount spent for the Minister's Office, Salaries, 1.1.01.01, had remained consistent and there is a decrease this year. I'm just wondering if there has been a change in staff and somebody brought in at a lower amount.

MS BETTNEY: No, there has not been any decrease or change in our numbers or in their pay levels, to my knowledge. I think the decrease you are seeing here refers to the number of pay periods. This year there is one less. There are twenty-six pay periods and you will see, reflected throughout the salaries component, a decrease in the actual amount for salaries. It will float into next year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Administrative Support, 1.2.02.05, Professional Services, there was a budgeted amount last year of $160,000. That amount was revised to $100,000, and it is back to $160,000 again for this year. I wonder if you could just give a clarification on that. While I am not complaining that you spent $60,000 less than you had budgeted, I'm just wondering why that amount was there.

MS BETTNEY: The Professional Services caption covers the Social Services Appeal Board. That is one of the areas that is included with it. Our actual experience that is reflected in the revised budget last year was a decrease in the cost for the Social Services Appeal Board.

In fact, one of the things we have been doing is trying to bring down the number of appeals that get registered throughout the Province. We have had some real success in that area and a number of regions have been very successful in dealing with issues at the regional office and the local office level. That has reflected a certain decrease last year. We have kept it, I presume, at the basic level until we ensure it is a trend that is going to be sustained, but primarily that is the cost that is included in it. Is there any other aspect to it, Dave? The audit?

MR. ROBERTS: Audit of cost-shared claims, yes. That is down.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, we also have the audit of any cost-shared claims that is included in that budget item.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Program Development and Planning, 1.2.03.03, Transportation and Communications, there is a significantly higher amount budgeted this year than last year.

MS BETTNEY: In that particular area, we have assumed a new function this year for the year coming. We are going to be the lead province for the Forum of Labour Market Ministers. So we have included in the budget an amount for support functions to the federal-provincial labour market ministers. That is fully recoverable from the federal government.

The other function that we have assumed is support to the Churchill Falls hydro project. There is policy and planning implications for employment that we provide some resources for, and these would be the Transportation and Communications costs associated with that particular function.

MR. T. OSBORNE: If I can revert back to the previous heading for just a moment? Under .02, Revenue-Provincial, where would that $20,000 sum come from?

MS BETTNEY: Dave, why don't you respond to that particular one?

MR. ROBERTS: That is purely for travel imprest over payments and so on. Some of our employees, because of all of the offices we have, have standing imprests and from time to time they give them back, when they resign or whatever. They come back to the department and they are recorded here as provincial revenue.

MR. T. OSBORNE: How can you determine that is going to remain at a constant $20,000?

MR. ROBERTS: It is an estimate but it has been fairly constant the last few years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.2.03.06 again, Purchased Services, there is an increase in that amount this year. (Inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: Again, we have budgeted, under the FLMM, the Forum of Labour Market Ministers, an amount of $245,000 to support providing the lead on that for the ministers across the country. That should explain the increase in this area as well. I think it is split between Purchased Services and Transportation and Communications, with $245,000 or so being included here. Does that work out?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, that is right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same heading, the revenues both federal and provincial -

MS BETTNEY: The Revenue-Federal, .01, that you see there is the recovery for the costs of our support function on the Forum of Labour Market Ministers. Dave, again, on the Revenue-Provincial, .02, is that support to the hydro project?

MR. ROBERTS: The hydro costs that we mentioned a few minutes ago, the expenditures, this is the provincial revenue. It is 100 per cent recoverable for our department, so it really nets out to zero.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That comes from Newfoundland Hydro?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 3.1.01.09, Allowances and Assistance, there is a decrease in what was budgeted and spent last year.

MR. ROBERTS: I'm sorry, is that Social Assistance, 3.1.01?

MS BETTNEY: Are we on 3.1.01 or 2.1.01?

MR. T. OSBORNE: No, 3.1.01.

MS BETTNEY: Alright. Could you repeat that for me, please? Because I was looking at the wrong section.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There is a difference in the amount of Allowances and Assistance that you are expected to pay this year.

MS BETTNEY: This is really associated with our decline in our caseloads throughout the year. You will probably recall that we have commented occasionally on the fact that we have had a decrease in the number of cases on social assistance. In fact, we have, in this budget, changed the base that we are using to project our costs in this area and we have adjusted it downwards because of our experience over the past year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 3.2.01, National Child Benefit Reinvestment Fund, the amount budgeted and spent last year was considerably different, to the tune of $979,500.

MS BETTNEY: Our experience with our initiatives under the National Child Benefit - there were three, I believe, that were primarily in our department and the remainder of them, the majority of them, were in the Department of Health and Community Services.

We did find in one of the major initiatives that we had, which was the drug card extension, that we did not have the degree of take-up we had anticipated. When my officials costed what we expected to spend in this area we based it on the number of people who would be eligible, took a percentage, and said this is what we estimate it will cost to provide this extended drug card to anyone when they leave social assistance to go to work.

What we found, after working with it for three months, was that the utilization was well below what we had projected and consequently we extended the drug card coverage from three months to six months. Part of the reason you are seeing the considerable reduction in the revised budget is simply that the money did not get spent because the take-up was not there.

We also saw less than projected take-up on our daycare subsidy. We provide a daycare subsidy for families who obtain private daycare assistance if they go to work, in terms of single parents or both parents if it is in the case of a family. We had increased the subsidy that we provide considerably, I believe from $260 to $325 for the first child. Again, the actual take-up by clients was less than we had projected so we did not spend as much in this area as we had anticipated.

We are finding now though that it is increasing. It seems to be heading in the direction that we would have expected when we started this.

MR. T. OSBORNE: You have budgeted $200,000 more this year than last year. Do you anticipate that you are actually going to -

MS BETTNEY: Last year it part year when we introduced it. I believe the first one was to be implemented in September. The extended drug card came in in September or October. This year, of course, it will be a full year of utilization. That is really the increase that we are seeing and expecting.

MR. ROBERTS: The same way with daycare.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, the same with the daycare.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I apologize for reverting back to the 3.1.01 again for just a moment.

MS BETTNEY: That is okay.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under .02, Revenue-Provincial, where would that allotment -

MS BETTNEY: I would assume that would be overpayments that are recovered. Dave, is that correct?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, that is 90 per cent of it.

MS BETTNEY: In many cases what we find is that people may receive more than they are entitled to. It is picked up under the early detection and prevention, the investigator piece. Then it is accounted for and people have to pay it back through an overpayment mechanism. That, I think, amounts to about 5 per cent per month, and that would be entered as revenue then in the department when it is returned.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 4.1.02, the Labour Market Development Agreement Projects, there is nothing in regards to the amounts budgeted. I just have a question on what exactly that entails and what initiatives are provided through that program.

MS BETTNEY: The Labour Market Development Agreement is an agreement that we entered into with the federal government in 1997. I believe that was the first year that it started. It is a three year agreement comprising a total of $308 million. It is money that is from the Employment Insurance account and it is being used by both governments to support active employment benefits and measures. We have a co-management agreement with the federal government for using this amount of money. In 1997 there was $86 million allocated in this area, last year there was $106 million. This is the third year and it will be $116 million this year.

We have regional committees in place that are federal-provincial committees. Typically, you will see applications that will come perhaps from businesses for economic development that have employment related outcomes associated with it. They go through a process of examining whether they fit with the economic development plans under the regional zonal boards and then the funding gets provided. It is intended to increase employment opportunities for people who are receiving employment insurance. It is one of those active measures.

One of the unique features of it in this Province is that we do have a co-management arrangement around how the federal government uses those funds in the Province. I believe there are other uses that this fund also has for sometimes doing research, and maybe for providing training supports and so on, but typically they are active measures designed to try and help people who are EI eligible become fully employed.

MR. T. OSBORNE: What programs or initiatives, in the line of grants and other initiatives, are going to be available this year through your department for employment creation?

MS BETTNEY: Are you talking about under the Labour Market Development Agreement or generally?

MR. T. OSBORNE: No, just generally.

MS BETTNEY: Generally speaking? We have a range of employment programs in the department. I will give you, I guess, the examples, and some of my officials can fill in the blanks if I miss any.

We provide employment programming through the graduate employment program which is targeted at people who have just left university or post-secondary. We provide a subsidy in the order of 60 per cent of their first year's salary. The private sector, the business which would be providing the job, provides the remainder of it.

That is a very successful employment program in that our experience is that we have I think something like 56 per cent of the graduates who come into the program have actually retained their jobs a year after their subsidy has ended. Of course, what we thought in designing the program was that if we could them a foot in the door and they could prove themselves valuable to their employers, then in fact the employers would find a way to be able to keep them on.

As I say, in at least 56 per cent of the cases that we have looked at over the past few years, that has proven to be a fact. We have the employment generation program as well which also is a wage subsidy. That works on a full year employment, sixty weeks. We provide funding for twenty of those weeks while the private sector provides the funding for the first twenty weeks and the last twenty weeks, if I am not mistaken. Again, it tends to be a fairly successful program and one that has similar results in that it tends to have a significant number of people stay after we have provided the subsidy.

We have, in terms of other employment programs, a major one that we announced, I think it was in February, is the Newfound Jobs Program. Part of that is being funded under the LMDA, the Labour Market Development Agreement, for clients who have that reach back through EI, but this is an innovative program where it is targeted again at youth, as defined as people up to twenty-nine years old.

That sort of is, I think, the major category of our clients where we are seeing an increase in people in this age group coming on the system. We know that if they end up on the system for very long it is difficult for them to get off, so we have really targeted this group. We are going to try and work with 500 of our social assistance clients in a case-management approach where we can tailor a range of supports to them to help them move into employment.

You know, it is really aligned with the new way of doing business as a department, and we think that it will really make a difference in terms of the employment outcomes for these people. The difference and the benefit is that we are not locked into any one program. It is not a question of people having to fit into programs. With Newfound Jobs we will give a pool of resources a certain amount of money that will be at the disposal of our career development people to work with the individual and provide whatever supports are necessary. So that if in some cases it is a bit of training, they can provide that; if it is a wage subsidy, they can provide that. If it is perhaps an extended drug card, transportation or something else that would make the difference that will enable them to take a job and get to work, we will be able to tailor a range of supports around the individual rather than trying to fit individuals in the programs. So we are pretty excited about that particular program. I think it is going to provide us some good information for the future.

There are a number of youth programs. We have the SWASP, the work and service program for young people, which again is a national award winning program that provides summer employment for young people. We are also working SWASP in cooperation with the university and with the College of the North Atlantic where they manage the program and have been very successful in providing employment, particularly for single parents and our clients who are attending those post-secondary institutions.

The only other general employment program that I haven't mentioned is the seasonal employment program. This program is one which is designed to provide a subsidy to businesses which operate in a seasonal manner, for them to create new jobs and provide employment for people that they would not otherwise probably be able to afford.

All of our other programs tend to be year-long kind of things. What the business community was telling us, particularly in rural Newfoundland, was that it did not really fit with the nature of their business. If they were seasonal in nature they could not provide sixty weeks of work or fifty-two weeks of work. They could only operate in a seasonal climate. So this program is designed to provide subsidy for people in this area to try and create a bit of employment there. It is a 50 per cent subsidy again, to a maximum of $3.00 an hour.

Those are the major employment programs that we have. We do some other things like with Linkages with young people to try and increase the employability of young people who are more at risk and really have a lot more work to do to try and figure out what they want to do with themselves, what kinds of directions they want to go in and how they will get themselves there. That is offered usually in partnership with community based agencies. You will see the Linkages program sponsored by WISE, Boys and Girls Clubs, recreation departments and communities and so on. Are there any others, Dave? Is that pretty well covered? Yes, I think that is the range of programming that we have.

Our youth employment initiatives that are dedicated ones - like SWASP, the co-op program and Linkages - are about $3.5 million in total, but if you look at all of the employment programming we do for young people it is in the order of about $7.5 million.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

On 4.1.03.10, Labour Market Adjustment Programs, Grants and Subsidies, there is a difference there. Almost $21 million was spent while there was only $6 million budgeted. Now this year there is over $9 million budgeted.

MS BETTNEY: The high number that you see in the revised budget is related to the post-TAGS early retirement agreement. We are a partner in that with the federal government. There have been, I think, two instalments of the early retirement program that have currently been funded and I believe there is at least one more that has to come. The majority of the funds that we need to contribute will have been spent in the previous year's budget, up to April of this year. There is a smaller amount now that we know we will have to contribute in the next wave.

MR. ROBERTS: Last year we paid a total (inaudible) probably over five years.

MS BETTNEY: Why don't you go ahead?

MR. ROBERTS: I was just saying to the minister that there were two instalments in the old fiscal year, the previous fiscal year, and government paid our portion in total. That is why it is up $14.9 million.

As the minister said, there will be two or three more instalments in this fiscal year, and the indication during the budget process that government would amortize them over a five year period. Therefore, there is $3.4 million in there for early retirement in this fiscal year which will represent the balance of the commitment by the provincial government, and it will be the first year of five. There will be four succeeding years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is all I have for now, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Osborne.

Ms Hodder.

MS M. HODDER: I do not have much in questions, but I was just wondering, minister, about something under Professional Services. I understand that the social service review is included under Professional Services. How much of it? Is the travel involved there too, where the appeals board have those people go out into the different areas of the Province?

MS BETTNEY: I'm going to defer that to Mr. Roberts to indicate whether the travel and the per diems are all in the same line of them.

MR. ROBERTS: In Professional Services it is just the per diems for the appeal board. The appeal board members get paid per diems in accordance with the government's approved rates for these. Their travel is covered under the travel item in that under Administrative Support.

MS BETTNEY: The line item that you see there for Professional Services would also include the staff support to the Social Services Appeal Board. There is a full-time executive secretary to support the board so that salary is included in that amount.

MS M. HODDER: Okay, because the trend was for the people on the board to go out into the different areas of the Province. Right now it is through teleconferencing more than going out to meet with the clients in different areas.

MS BETTNEY: As much as possible.

MS M. HODDER: Is for cost savings or is it for other reasons?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, it is for two reasons. There is a definite cost saving to it. We have also found that it does cut down on the waiting period. We had a lengthy waiting period at one point and managed to bring it down to something that was more reasonable over the last couple of years. We find that by being able to do it by teleconference we can keep a really acceptable waiting period. What I find is that when clients are going through the system, when they are dissatisfied with the outcome of a decision, they need to have that appeal handled really expeditiously because they are waiting on that to see if they are going to get any different outcome from what they have been told. We find that if we can keep that moving - I think we have that down to a two week -

MR. ROBERTS: Two to three weeks.

MS BETTNEY: - two to three week waiting period now, which is pretty reasonable in terms of the system.

The other thing, I think, an observation that was made to me, was that clients themselves find it less intimidating to be in a distance kind of environment through a teleconference rather than having to go face-to-face. I am sure there are probably others who would find it intimidating to use the technology, but for people who often feel disadvantaged and threatened by the system, and by people who they perceive to have power over them, sometimes it is a little bit easier to make the case when they are not looking at people face-to-face. That is an element of it.

Is there anything else? Dave, you go ahead if there is.

MR. ROBERTS: I just wanted to add that the client is always given the option of whether they would prefer it by teleconference or in person. We try to explain to them what the implications are. The big one is, as the minister has said, that the waiting period from the time you ask for an appeal to when it can be heard can effectively be cut in half from about six weeks to two to three weeks. In nearly all cases since we have offered this option clients have opted for the teleconference to get the earlier decision.

MS M. HODDER: Thank you. Those are all the questions I have at this time.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hodder.

Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Since the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair just took her seat, I will give her a few seconds while I speak to think of what she might want to inquire of, because she will be the next questioner.

Ms Jones.

MS JONES: I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIR: Any further questions, Mr. Osborne?

MR. T. OSBORNE: No, that is fine, thank you.

CHAIR: There being no further questions, I will ask the Clerk to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05, carried.

On motion, Department of Human Resources and Employment, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: That appears to conclude the Estimates for your department this evening, Madam Minister.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you.

CHAIR: I thank you and your officials for being here and I thank the members for being here, even though some were here ever so briefly.

I inform the Committee that the next meeting is in the Committee room for the Department of Education on Tuesday, May 18 in the morning. Subject to confirmation there, it appears that we may be rescheduling the Estimates for the Department of Health and Community Services to that evening as well. I need to confirm that with the minister but we will have two on that day. It will be a long day. I will confirm that with the Clerk and with the minister, but it now appears that we will be moving Health and Community Services from Thursday, May 20 to Tuesday, May 18.