The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

I assume your other officials will show up in due course but there are a few things we need to do at the beginning and I will give them a few more minutes to get here.

Perhaps before we get started we could attend to a small piece of business, the minutes of the last meeting of the Social Services Committee when we met to discuss and consider the Estimates of the Department of Human Resources and Employment. You have the minutes before you. Can I have a motion to accept the minutes as presented?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: That being done, we will now move into the Estimates for the Department of Education. Madam Minister, we welcome you and your officials this evening.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

CHAIR: The procedure is not unlike that of previous years. We will ask you to introduce the members of your staff and make some introductory remarks. Following that I will ask the Vice-Chair to lead off the debate, the discussion, the questioning. Then we will alternate amongst the members.

Before I start perhaps we could introduce the members of the Committee, starting at my far right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: John Ottenheimer.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons.

CHAIR: I am Bob Mercer, Chair of the Committee.

If you would, Madam Minister, when your officials speak if they could identify themselves for the purposes of record by Hansard. I think the gentleman probably knows this group here by voice but perhaps he is not familiar with your members. So, if you would, the floor is yours.

MS FOOTE: Thank you. We have the Deputy Minister, Florence Delaney here to my immediate left. On Florence's left is Pamela Walsh. Pamela is the ADM for post-secondary. On my immediate right is David Lewis. David, what is your title other than that you do the books?

MR. LEWIS: ADM for Finance and Administration.

MS FOOTE: There you go. To David's right we have Harold Press, who is the ADM for K-XII, and in the back of the room is Gerald Galway, and Gerald is with the department as well.

I have to start out by telling you that four of us are new, "new" being that I have been in the position for about five months now and Harold has been with us for about a month, I suppose.

MR. PRESS: Under a month.

MS FOOTE: Under a month. Florence the same, and David the same. We are going to do our best with the Estimates here tonight. This is why we have Pam and Gerald with us, and Gerald is the fount of all knowledge. We will certainly be here and that is why there are so many of us here this evening.

I will start out, I guess, by talking a little bit about education, and what we are trying to accomplish with the budget that we have, a budget of approximately $700 million which - I'm sure a lot of you have heard me say - accounts for 20 per cent of the total provincial budget. In fact, it is the second largest item of expenditure for the government next to Health and Community Services which accounts for 50.2 per cent.

As we go through the Estimates I'm sure you will have some questions about some one-time payments and we will be able to respond to those as well. I suppose if you look at our expenditure as a province, based on our GDP, we spend more on education in this Province than any other province in Canada. If you look at what we spend on students themselves, if you look at the percentage of increase, in the last six years we have seen a larger percentage of increase in student expenditures than any other province in this country, with the exception of Saskatchewan. I guess Saskatchewan is the one that is very similar to this Province in terms of its geographic makeup and the rural nature of that province. When you look at the Province itself and our geography you can understand why our expenditures are so great.

We have seen a tremendous decline in student enrolment in this Province which really is a cause for concern, I think, in terms of how we administer our education system. We peaked at one time in the early 1970s at 162,000 students and today we are at 97,000. If you look ten years out to 2010, we are looking at less than 60,000 students. I think there is a real serious issue for us in terms of our student enrolment and how we plan to deliver education in this Province. I think there is a very real concern out there in terms of our ability to deliver, given the resources that we have. How do we maximize our resources and still at the same time deliver a quality education program?

If you look at the nature of our Province, again, where we have rural communities and where we have gone with the designation of necessarily existent schools, we have ninety-three of those. Of the 350 schools in the Province ninety-three have that particular status. What we are finding is while that took care of some of the more rural schools in the past couple of years, now we are finding that through the consolidation that has taken place through education reform there are other schools that are finding themselves in similar situations that the small necessarily existent schools found themselves in, or the smaller of all the schools found themselves in, just a couple of years ago.

Now that we have come together with the consolidation part of the exercise of education reform, we really now have to focus on how we are delivering education in the Province, particularly to rural Newfoundland. We clearly have to now look at curriculum development, we have to look at professional development, we have to look at any number of issues around the quality of education, about how we are delivering that education in the Province.

One of the issues of course for us again is the declining student enrolment. I have to say that while we have seen our students decline by about 34 per cent, in the last ten years we have really seen the teacher allocation decline by about 21 per cent.

We are trying to recognize the importance of making sure we have enough teachers in the system, but at the same time there is a fiscal reality here and that is trying to deliver education with the resources available to us, and bearing in mind that when you are having the kind of decline that we are having, at a rate of 4 per cent a year - which translates into about 8200 students a year - that there is a serious issue there for us.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would turn it over to you, recognizing that you have a lot of questions, I'm sure.

CHAIR: Thank you, Madam Minister.

It has been our practice that we would have most of our questioning under the one head, 1.1.01. Is that the consensus that we would do that again this evening?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Very well. Then I would ask the Clerk to call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: I would ask the Vice-Chairman if he would commence his questioning, after which I will go to Ms Hodder.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under the first heading, 1.1.01.01, the Minister's Office, Salaries, there is a jump of about $25,000 this year, taking into account the fact that there was an extra pay period for 1998-1999. What would account for the increase?

MS FOOTE: In the Minister's Office?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: That was the public relations specialist position. In addition to the Director of Public Relations that we have, there is a public relations specialist that was hired.

MR. T. OSBORNE: In addition to...?

MS FOOTE: The Director of Public Relations and Communications.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, that is why I'm (inaudible). There are two public relations positions then?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.2.02.12, General Administration, under Information Technology, the amount that was budgeted last year, there was an increase of approximately $150,000, and there is a substantial increase in the budgeted amount again for this year. I wonder if you could give some clarification on where that expenditure is going, the reason for the additional expenditure.

MS FOOTE: The revised would have been $698,200, now we are projecting $812,500. Those increases are related to hardware and software development and system support for the teachers' payroll. We have also added the payroll for the student assistants in there as well, so that is to have a more comprehensive system and a more consistent one throughout.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The payroll for the student assistants is under Information Technology?

MS FOOTE: This is for the system itself, the hardware and everything that is required to revamp it and bring it up to a level where we have the same type of approach for teachers' payroll. It is an enhancement of the system, essentially.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just for clarification, I'm understanding student assistants to be the actual people that go into the classroom with special needs students.

MS FOOTE: Yes, but this is for their payroll, this is how we -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, it is not for them.

MS FOOTE: No, this is for the payroll.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, I'm sorry. I thought that was what you were saying. I was going to say, under Information Technology?

Under Youth Services, 1.2.04.01, Salaries, the revised amount for 1998-1999 was up $21,800. Can you give some explanation as to that?

MS FOOTE: The department in its wisdom choose to hire additional summer students last summer.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same subheading, .09, Allowances and Assistance, there was only half the amount spent last year that was budgeted, and now it is up to approximately the same amount.

MS FOOTE: Yes. Do you remember the programs where students would get tuition vouchers and tutoring for tuition programs? Well, that was last year the take-up, even though we had budgeted more.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is under the SWASP program?

MS FOOTE: Is that the SWASP?

WITNESS: Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Tutoring for Tuition, that is right. The take-up, even though the students had worked and they were entitled to it, this is how much they redeemed.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Is the SWASP program budgeted though Education as well, or is that through Human Resources and Employment?

MS FOOTE: Human Resources and Employment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same heading, .10, Grants and Subsidies, there was $150,000 more spent than was budgeted last year.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We choose to provide additional grants to some youth organizations. We get an awful lot of requests under that particular heading for student leadership conferences, encounters with Canada, and all of those different types of requests. The department chose to, in fact, accommodate more than had actually been budgeted for. I can tell you that the requests that are in this year are triple what we have in the budget to actually cover.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Corporate Planning and Research, 1.2.05.01, Salaries, there is what would amount to about a 40 per cent decrease in salaries this year over what was budgeted last year. I wonder if you could give some clarification as to whether there was staff cut there or something else.

MS FOOTE: No, these were three positions that were cost-shared on projects, right? David, do you want to speak to that?

MR. LEWIS: There were three positions last year under cost-shared projects and those projects have ended, so there is a decline in the amount of salaries. As you can see there is a decline in .02, Revenue-Provincial, on the bottom there, because they were being cost-shared and that particular program is over.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. Under Professional Services, .05, there is a substantial decrease in the actual amount spent over what was budgeted. You are up again to $117,100 this year. I'm wondering why that amount had gone down to $30,000 from $197,500?

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible) necessity with cost-shared projects and we had anticipated more than actually materialized. We actually only spent $30,000. For this coming year we are looking at needing additional revenue because we are looking at a number of reports that need to be done, some that were last done - for instance, the K-XII indicator survey, the analysis and report was last done in 1996. (Inaudible) follow-up survey, for instance, that was done is done on an annual basis. We have the teacher survey workloads, et cetera, done every four to five years, so the increase is in anticipation of additional work that we will have to do.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01, Teaching Services, the amount that is budgeted this year is approximately the same as the amount that was budgeted last year. I'm just wondering, based on the pay increase - there was a 2 per cent increase last year and again this year under the collective bargaining - is that a result of teaching positions cut? What would amount for the allocations there being the same?

MS FOOTE: That is as a result of the decision to take 182 teachers out of the system.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So that would amount to roughly 2 per cent? Is that 2 per cent (inaudible)?

MS FOOTE: It would have been 11.4 - is that the 2 per cent?

MR. LEWIS: Yes, it would amount to 182 out of about 6,000, so that sounds like around 3 per cent.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.02.06, School Board Operations, Purchased Services, there is an increase there this year up from what was spent last year, $768,400 up to $1,318,900. What would the allocations be under Purchased Services?

MS FOOTE: I think that was for the insurance premiums for school property and that is the outcome of - that is the service (inaudible) total (inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Regular Operating Grant, under Grants and Subsidies there, .10, there is less money being spent this year than was actually spent last year. Am I to understand that that would be for the upkeep, renovations and maintenance on the schools we have within the system?

MS FOOTE: No, this would be where we took care of the debt relief. Remember the boards had incurred some debt as a result of coming together, and we would have put in the $1.2 million to take care of that? So when all the boards came together there was -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the Regular Operating Grant?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess to clarify my question I will rephrase it. The operation of the schools, that is what would come under the Regular Operating Grant?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. Would the renovations that are required with some of the rezoning and restructuring come under that subheading as well?

MS FOOTE: Does that come out of (inaudible)?

MS DELANEY: Some of it would come out of that, some of it would come out of EIC funding for which we have a total of $125 million. For example, the $15 million allocated for St. John's is not out of this, it is out of the $125 million for school construction and renovations.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So how much of the renovations that are going to be required this year would come under this subheading?

MS DELANEY: Very little. Most of this money is for regular maintenance, day-to-day maintenance of the schools.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just regular operations?

MS DELANEY: That is right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So what subheading would I find the - where would that come under?

MS DELANEY: You would find that under school construction when you go to 2.1.08, where it says Capital. That is where the major renovations are funded.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation?

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So I see no allocations of funding under that this year, under 2.1.08.

MS DELANEY: That is because from a cash flow perspective we have advanced the Corporation the full $50 million. You will see that we have paid out $29.9 million in the past fiscal year. We have advanced the Corporation now the full $50 million. They have more than enough cash to meet their cash flow requirements for the upcoming fiscal year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So that was allocated under last year's budget?

MS DELANEY: Right, in 1998-1999.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess what you are saying is there is enough allocated to them under last year's budget to fulfil any requirements under rezoning and restructuring this year?

MS DELANEY: To meet the capital requirements, that is correct.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, there is an increase this year of almost $400,000 over what was actually spent last year. It is basically the same as what was budgeted last year. We are to understand that there is a decline in the pupil population. Why would we need the same amount for textbooks and school supplies this year as we did last year?

MS FOOTE: I expect, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that some of this would have to do with the needs of the special education students, under the Canning report, making sure that we have the resources available to those students in the system. That requires audio cassettes of different programs and different curriculum materials than you would normally find in the system. Is that accurate?

MR. T. OSBORNE: That requirement was not there last year?

MS FOOTE: Not to the degree that it is this year because we are adding additional units for special needs. Is there another component to it?

MS DELANEY: There is another component. The other component is that we allow for new textbooks. As you know, we are changing our curriculum in a number of areas and basically what this was allowed for was not only for replacement texts but for new textbooks. When we purchase new textbooks, naturally we would have to acquire them for all students that would be in a particular grade or particular subject area.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same subsection, under .02, Revenue-Provincial, is that as a result of the sale of textbooks to students?

MS DELANEY: Grades IX to XII.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under section, 2.2.02, the Revenue-Federal there, .02, there is a decrease of almost $400,000 from the federal government. Is there any explanation as to why? Is that as a result of out-migration, with the Canada Health and Social Transfers? Did that factor into that amount? Why would there be a smaller allocation from the federal government this year?

MS FOOTE: Do you know that one?

MR. LEWIS: I would think that it would just be planned cash flows. It is a cost-shared agreement that provides funding here and cash flows for cost-shared agreements tend to vary from year to year. So (inaudible) planned the cash flow.

MR. PRESS: I suspect these are the result of negotiated agreements and there are fewer students in the language programs, and as a result there is a decline in revenue from federal sources.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.01.01, School Services, Salaries, we see what was budgeted last year was $199,100 and there is $172,700 budgeted this year. When you take into account an extra pay period last year and the difference of the 2 per cent this year, I'm wondering is there a decrease in salary or was there a change in staff there? What would account for the change in the allocations?

MS DELANEY: Yes, there is a slight reduction in the level of staffing in the School Services area. As well, one of the positions in this area is also funded through the Education Investment Corporation. That person does a lot of the clerical work for the Education Investment Corporation as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02, Student Testing and Evaluation, there is a difference in salary allocations. Was there a reduction in the number of staff (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Yes. One of the consulting projects has been completed, so that consultant will now return to the school where they came from. That person was here on secondment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am going to shift some focus away from the Estimates now and leave something for my colleagues to ask. I have a couple of other questions.

Would you elaborate on the change in the number of teaching positions this year and give some indication as to the percentage for urban and rural differences under the (inaudible)?

MS FOOTE: I do not know if you would know the breakdown on that, Florence, but what we have seen is a reduction of 182 positions overall. I don't know if there has been a breakdown in terms of how many of those come from the rural versus the urban areas.

What we did was we looked at the student enrolments and looked at the number of teachers that could - if you were to apply the teacher allocation formula, you would have seen over 400 come out of the system, and that was not what we wanted to do.

We went back and looked again at the student enrolment and looked at programming. In discussions with the boards, we looked at the number of schools in each of the districts, and so we looked at the SNES schools in the first instance to determine how many of those there are. That would be done in consultation with the boards. Of course, all of those are in rural Newfoundland, the whole ninety-three. None of those are in any of the urban areas.

If you want to look at the allocations there in the SNES schools, there are enhanced allocations in the SNES schools to ensure that they have the full program that they can offer. There are ninety-three of those. Depending on the enrolment, that will determine the number of teachers that go in there. I cannot give you a figure without knowing how many went into each school.

Again, when we looked at the add backs, we went fair and across the board. Where you would normally, I suppose, if you had to look at student enrolment, you would have seen thirty teachers coming out, but we chose to put fifteen back in. The way it was done was across the board, but I do not have a breakdown - I don't know if anybody else does - on the numbers that are in rural areas of the Province versus the numbers that are in the urban centres.

MR. PRESS: I could take a stab at it. On the student side first, in 1998 there were about 56,000 students in urban schools and about 41,000 students in rural schools. That is about a 60-40 split. In terms of teachers, there are about 3,350 teachers in urban schools and about 2,980 in rural schools. The decline over three years -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you have a percentage on that?

MR. PRESS: That was what I was going to just do now. The decline in the three-year period prior to this was about a 1 per cent decline in the total number of teachers in urban schools and about a 16.7 per cent decline in the number of teachers in rural schools.

That is equivalent to about the same in terms of enrolment. There is about a less than 1 per cent in decline in enrolment in urban schools, and that is just not the St. John's area. There are urban schools in just about every district, with the exception of the Northern Peninsula, and about an 18 per cent, almost a 20 per cent, decline in the number of students in rural schools throughout the Province.

WITNESS: That is over what time frame?

MR. PRESS: That is over the last three-period.

WITNESS: Three years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Factored into the pupil-teacher ratios, does that include non-teaching positions?

MS FOOTE: That includes librarians, administrators, counsellors, all of them.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Does it factor in the SNES?

MS FOOTE: In the pupil-teacher ratio? Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have a question on student assistants. In my opinion there is a problem with the number of student assistants in the Province. I know in my own district, as an example, I've received calls. One comes to mind. Earlier this year there was a student that was actually told that he could not attend school for a period of time because he did not have a student assistant. What is being done to rectify or clear up the problem with the shortage of student assistants?

MS FOOTE: I am not sure we would agree there is a shortage. In fact, I suppose if you look at the budget, we are over the budget in terms of what had been budgeted for student assistants. In fact, I guess we went over last year by about $600,000 so there is an issue there for us as well.

What has been happening is that the schools have been requesting of the boards and the boards have been putting forward to us what they require in the way of student assistants. One of the issues we are grappling with now is how to determine the need. That is something we have to look very closely at.

At this point in time I think it is safe to say that there has been no monitoring done of the student assistants. It has been left to the boards and to the schools. What we are seeing at the end of the day is an increased demand without us having actually budgeted for that increased demand. This is something that we have to have a serious look at. That is, the need that exists out there. That is something we are in the process of doing now.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate there will be more student assistants allocated under next year's budget?

MS FOOTE: What we are looking at now, and having discussions around, is what need is out there. I would think it is safe to say that you will always find that boards or schools will come forward requesting additional student assistants for the students in their systems. Whether or not we will be able to meet all of the requests we do not know at this point, but we are certainly trying to get a handle on the number of requests that are there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate there will be an increase?

MS FOOTE: I do not anticipate there will be an increase. There might be, once we have gone through the system and had discussion with the boards. There might be a different way of how those that are presently in the system are allocated. Again, we do not know, because those are still discussions that are ongoing with the boards. We haven't budgeted for an increase, I can put it that way.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you. Alright, that is it for now. I may ask some more questions later but I will allow some other members of the Committee to ask questions at this time.

CHAIR: Thank you, Tom. Mary, and then we will come back to Tom Hedderson.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, I do not have any questions for the minister at this time.

CHAIR: Then we will go right back to Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was quick.

CHAIR: You are prepared; you have done your homework.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am always prepared, right?

We will turn back to 1.1.01.06, the Minister's Office, Purchased Services. Madam Minister, there is a bubble there, with $13,500 for last year and $7,300 this year. What are those services that we are talking about?

MS FOOTE: That was probably some of the meetings that the minister was required to attend, a number of regional and national forums.

MR. HEDDERSON: So you are going to have less meetings this year, obviously.

MS FOOTE: We will see. We are not budgeting for as much, looking at what was budgeted for and what was revised last year. Again, we will try to live within what is there.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is a cutback, more or less.

Under 1.2.01.03, Executive Support, Transportation and Communications, again, it went from $63,000 to $86,500 to $48,400. What is the breakdown between Transportation and Communications money-wise?

WITNESS: I do not know the breakdown.

MR. LEWIS: For the $48,400 that is in for this year there is about $38,000 for travel and about $10,000 for telephone. If you looked at last year's funding you would assume the telephone account would be relatively stable, so the remainder would be travel.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, this is not anticipated to have the same amount of travel?

MS FOOTE: No. A lot of that had to do with travel required because of the school board consolidations and the staff getting out and meeting with the various school boards, and school closures, all of the issues surrounding that. So there was a fair bit of travel done because of that. Of course, there were site visits as well for capital works whenever anything is happening out there with an extension or a new school.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 1.2.04, Youth Services, I'm just looking at .09 and .10, Allowances and Assistance and Grants and Subsidies, respectively. The special projects under this are usually the grant to youth organizations, the Duke of Edinburgh awards, the travel and exchange, and the Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I'm just looking for a breakdown first of all. Where would they fall?

MS FOOTE: Where would what fall?

MR. HEDDERSON: For example, grants to youth organizations, would that be under Grants and Subsidies?

MS FOOTE: That would be under .10, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. The Duke of Edinburgh?

MS FOOTE: Under .10.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. Travel and exchange?

MS FOOTE: .10.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tutoring for Tuition?

MS FOOTE: That would be .09, Allowances and Assistance.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is there anything else that I am missing here? That would be the programs?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The travel and exchange, what would that break down to? How much is used for travel and exchange?

MS FOOTE: Sorry, where are you now?

MR. HEDDERSON: These would be the special projects. So they would be under Grants and Subsidies?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the travel and exchange, again, I just want to see how much is spent and the nature of the travel and exchange. Is that interprovincial?

MS FOOTE: There was $27,600 on travel and exchange and it was an interchange on Canadian studies, interprovincial travel.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, who is that offered to?

MS FOOTE: You have a number of groups that benefit here from this. You have Scouts Canada, the Provincial Boys and Girls Club, Girl Guides, all of them.

MR. HEDDERSON: I was just thinking about sport teams. That would not fall under that, would it, Minister?

MS FOOTE: No, that is different. Where do sport teams come in?

MR. LEWIS: There are provincial bodies that receive funding under here. There are local organizations such as, for example, the Wabana Boys and Girls Club, and the Boys and Girls Club in Buchans. There are a variety of local organizations as well that receive funding. Then there are groups like the Duke of Edinburgh awards. That is funded here as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: How much would be spent on those?

MR. LEWIS: The Duke of Edinburgh?

MS FOOTE: Twenty-five thousand dollars, the Duke of Edinburgh?

MR. LEWIS: I believe it is $25,000, yes. It was $12,000 last year. There was also some money that was paid in advance towards this year as well.

MS FOOTE: That is an excellent program.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes it is. I am just curious to see how they have been accessed because I know they are good programs and I'm delighted to see that the groups are a good selection of groups. Of course, I would love to see more.

Youth organizations are the other one, of course. What organizations? Are they the ones that you already went through with me?

MR. LEWIS: I touched on some but there is a wide variety here.

MR. HEDDERSON: The travel and exchange (inaudible).

MR. LEWIS: It runs about seven or eight pages actually of what organizations. The funding ranges from $500 to $20,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, but they are being accessed and the money has been used. I would think there are a lot more groups that are applying that perhaps cannot get it as well.

MS FOOTE: I guess they have to report back, don't they? Whenever they go and take a trip they have to report back on their expenditures.

MR. LEWIS: Yes.

MS FOOTE: So there is a report filed.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Tutoring for Tuition program, I'm very interested in looking at the numbers there as well and how successful that has been. The money that was spent on it, obviously all that money is allotted in .09 for Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, what is the explanation for the $250,000 there?

MS FOOTE: The take-up was not there even though they were eligible, based on the criteria. The take-up just was not there for whatever reason (inaudible).

MR. LEWIS: The $500,000 was actually all committed but this is the high school students, so the actual take-up happens when they actually move in with post-secondary. So you get a time lag between when the voucher is actually committed and when they actually claim it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Sure. You have Level IIs now that are doing the tutoring and -

MR. LEWIS: Exactly. The $500,000 was all committed at some point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, my question is this. It has been accessed, it has been used, and the money is there to be -

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, that is very positive, because it is an excellent program and one that should certainly be -

MR. PRESS: There is one other explanation for the rise. There was a program evaluation done last year. (Inaudible) expenditure (inaudible) to try and identify the benefit that was coming back (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Harold, what was the result of that? You were very encouraged by it and the feedback from the students?

MR. PRESS: Yes, absolutely. One of the problems with it is the demands it places on the local teachers and so on to do this, and that is part of the problem that they will not take on. It is usually driven by very enthusiastic, energized teachers and so on who (inaudible) and the benefits have been outstanding.

MR. HEDDERSON: Now, the tuition vouchers as well, can they be used outside the Province?

MS DELANEY: I am pretty sure. I cannot say for certain, but I am pretty sure that they can be used outside the Province.

The other thing, as well, that we should remember is that at some point in time we will have an expenditure in some year substantially greater than $500,000, because all of those commitments will catch up to us at some point in time, and we will probably have $800,000, $900,000 or $1 million we will have to pay in any one year to honour the outstanding commitments.

MR. HEDDERSON: My colleague has stolen some questions on me so I am just going down. If we could look at the School Board Operations, 2.1.02, there are some questions that my colleague asked about the insurance. Are insurance rates going up? In Purchased Services, .06, the only thing that you are purchasing is insurance? Is that on buildings or on the personal liability?

MS FOOTE: School property. The outcome of the tender, which was not known at budget time, actually came in at $888,000 so it is less than the $l.3 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: So it is less than that?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: You had budgeted for the -

MS FOOTE: Yes, because we did not know when we went to budget what the tender would come in for.

MR. HEDDERSON: What happens in that case?

MS FOOTE: Do you want to speak to that?

MS DELANEY: In 1998-1999 the tender came in significantly lower than what it has in the past few years. When we go out to tender for insurance for school buildings we never know what the price is going to be. Since it has now come in for 1999-2000 at about $800,000, that gives us a little bit of flexibility in our budget for School Board Operations.

MR. HEDDERSON: That will be transferred to somewhere else, is that what you are saying?

MS DELANEY: That is right. Before the end of the year, for sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, is it lower because of less buildings or were you anticipating -

MS DELANEY: No. What we are doing is we are sharing the premium now with Works, Services and Transportation on all government buildings. There is one policy for all schools and for all government buildings, so we get a better price.

MS FOOTE: Bulk purchase.

MS DELANEY: Bulk purchase.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under .10, Grants and Subsidies, in particular the regular operating grant, it is my understanding - and I stand to be corrected - that the operating grants have stayed the same for the school boards.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the first one. Also, that if buildings were closed the operating grants for those buildings would remain with the boards.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Now I understand as well that there was a three-year time frame?

MS FOOTE: That is right, where they could in fact keep their savings, any savings that they realized from consolidation. The first two years, where they have fewer students, their grants would have been impacted to the degree of the number of students that they lost, but in terms of the number of buildings that were closed, they got to keep that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. As the buildings closed (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Now this past year, of course, in our budget we announced that their operating grants would be the same as they were last year even though they still have fewer students and fewer buildings.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so (inaudible). Minister, is that going to continue? The St. John's board, for example, have restructured now, whereas Avalon West has really gone through restructuring. They are saving, for three years, those operating grants. What applies now to the St. John's board? Is it three years still?

MS FOOTE: That is a matter for discussion with the boards at this point in time. They would obviously like to see it continue further, even those who have had it for three years and would like to see it continue further. That is a matter for discussion with the boards.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but the St. John's board, where they have just really done a major restructuring, do they get the three-year's grace?

MS FOOTE: I will not say no, but when we looked at the three years - this is the third year, and all the discussions we have had with the boards were centred around those three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: All the boards were aware that they had a three year grace, right -

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: - and it was up to them if they wanted to restructure early, middle or late. St. John's is into the third year now, so next year their operating grants could be cut, increased or whatever you are going to do with it.

MS FOOTE: That is right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the negotiations will be for the upcoming school year.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Everything is covered for this, 1999-2000, but for the next one (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Where we go from here on is still a matter of discussion with the boards. I would say most of them have come forward with the request that they would like to continue to receive the savings.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under that as well, student assistants has been a problem in September. I understand that in your budget you are leaving more student assistants in, plus the request will go in now in the spring. As a matter of fact, the requests are coming in now, and they are going to be allotted now in June for September. That is the way it is.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The form for the allocation of student assistants is causing problems in a sense that it is just a straight form. There are some areas that are grey in it. Have you received any complaints about that form, and are you prepared to address it if indeed it needs to be addressed?

MS FOOTE: Would that be the same form that we use for the special category teachers and everything? Is it all one and the same? Because I know there are some issues there with some of the teachers in terms of the length of time it takes to fill out the form so I guess it is a different form.

MR. HEDDERSON: This one for the student assistants really was one sheet.

MS FOOTE: Oh, a checklist.

MR. HEDDERSON: A checklist. Personally, I found it inadequate in trying to get into some of these different categories of students that needed the student assistants. I was just curious as to whether or not you are aware that there are some problems and if you were considering addressing them.

MS FOOTE: It has certainly been mentioned to us and I think, again, where we have not been monitoring what has been happening out there very closely we are finding that the student assistant is being used in a number of areas that probably would not be if you had applied the criteria. One of those areas would be in behavioural areas where you are finding that student assistants are in fact being utilized for that reason, for that purpose. We have to look closely at that. We have to see that those with the greatest need actually get to avail of the service.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the form is what usually - it is not (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Yes, there is no room there for any elaboration.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, and the (inaudible) part of it was not there. It was frustrating to try and, like you said, get a case across because it was not going to the school board, it was going into the department, and that was a difficult thing to try and get across.

MS FOOTE: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Also with the student assistants, we always find it very difficult when it comes to substitute time for student assistants. Oftentimes if the student assistant is not in the student is not in, because it is difficult to get substitute time, especially. What is the leeway for boards with regard to substitute time for student assistants? Is that in that right there? How do you allot substitute time or hours for the board with regard to student assistants?

MS DELANEY: The substitute time would be included in the budget amount that is there. To be perfectly honest, there is not a lot of flexibility there for substitute time. That is an issue some boards do have.

MR. HEDDERSON: For example, in that particular school board operation you are over on the insurance. Is it possible that the department has the flexibility to help boards out in these situations? Is there anything there for that?

MS DELANEY: I think we would have to look at our total priorities in the department, if we have some flexibility under the insurance. We would have to look at all areas of the department and determine where the greatest need was.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues, I think, with substitute teachers, as well, was the unusually high sick leave.

MR. HEDDERSON: You just stole my question. Good job, minister.

MS DELANEY: With respect to the student assistants, if I may, even though I do not have the numbers in front of me, it is fair to say that the amount of money that has been put into student assistants over the past four to five years has increased significantly. Government has increased the allocation for student assistants almost every year for the past three to four years for sure, because it is an area of a significant demand.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under substitute teachers, and again this seems to be a difficulty, there is the number of sick days. Minister, you just referenced it there. I am particularly concerned about the professional days. Because to convince the school board to give teachers professional time is very difficult. Oftentimes, for three days at a stretch - because if you have been in-serviced in anything, it is very difficult to go in one day. Teachers in most boards are allotted probably one or two days of professional development and they have to choose, and it is very difficult.

Like I said, the amounts there for the substitute teachers are the same, so I suspect the problem is going to be there again in the upcoming year. Is there any flexibility there to ensure that the teachers get the professional time they need to be in-serviced in their particular areas?

MS DELANEY: The amount we have built in there for 1999-2000 is $10 million. Which in fact, except for last year, 1998-1999, was a little bit of an abnormal year, I guess, to some extent. Prior to that the amount that was spent for substitute teachers has been about $9.5 million on an annual basis. Therefore if you compare previous years to the amount that we have available in 1999-2000 then we do have some flexibility there. The problem that we have, however, is that in the past fiscal year, 1998-1999, there was a significant overrun of about $1 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: So I see it as a problem. Just addressing it with the $10 million you have there - I do not know if it is going to address it. Because with the decline in the number of teachers you would think that there would be a decline in the number of substitute days, but I guess it is an ongoing problem.

MS FOOTE: It is something we are going to have to watch very closely, obviously.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, do you have any idea why last year would have been abnormal? Has the abnormal become the normal now for this year?

MS FOOTE: No. I think again it was the unusually high sick leave that happened last year. We are working with the NLSBA to look at that and to see what the issues are here and how best to address them.

MR. HEDDERSON: Primarily, is it sick leave? Is that the big bulk of what it is?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Of course, that points to a problem. Like you said, it needs to be looked at.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would like to see a lot more of it being for professional development days and travel with teams and so on and so forth.

MS FOOTE: I also have some ministerial discretion within the department in terms of - and I think about 400 days were used last year, allocated last year for that. So teachers who wanted to travel with teams or teachers who wanted to go away on some exchange program, I think it was about 400 days last year we utilized for that. This year I think I'm up to about 150 days already.

MR. PRESS: Minister, if I could just add something. There is a ten-year profile of substitutes. Actually, it has declined almost regularly each year for the last ten years, with the exception of last year where it went up slightly. It has gone, in terms of full-time equivalent units, from about 460 days steadily down to about 324 days. Last year it went up for some reason to about 370 days, so it went up by about thirty days.

I think that sort of underscores the need for things like wellness awareness courses and things like that just to try to get a handle on what was the root cause of this. Is this an anomaly just last year, or is this something that we might have to be very alert to in the coming year?

MR. HEDDERSON: The bus transportation in this is covered. That is all the transportation needs in the system, so to speak. Again, there is a slight increase and I question it. Is that anticipating cost? Because I would say the numbers are down.

MS FOOTE: Is that the 2 per cent wage increase?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, so that is the...

Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, I was very curious about the response with regard to instructional materials. I understand there is an increase in that area right now. Again, could you give me the breakdown of what materials you are referring to?

MS DELANEY: We should have a split for school supplies. I am just trying to find it now. Because of the $4,519,100, normally something over $2 million of that is for replacement texts in the K-VIII system. The remaining portion is for new text books. I am just trying to find in our notes the actual split for you. Do you know what page it is on, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: No, I don't.

MR. HEDDERSON: The reason I asked the question, Madam Minister, is that getting those instructional supplies, especially for exceptional children, has been a difficult task. I will be very interested to find out what initiatives you have taken. Because a lot of the text books were not put on tape, you know what I mean, and it was difficult to teach the different subject areas to the children. I'm hoping that you are going to be able to tell me that you added more subject areas to it.

MS FOOTE: Again, in implementing the Canning report, $244,000 was used for alternate formatting of materials, like Braille for instance, books on tape and that.

MR. HEDDERSON: What areas? Language text books? Which books have you - I know the supply that was there last year. Has that increased?

MR. PRESS: I cannot answer it, but it would cut across all areas. Mostly language arts, particularly the primary grades. That is where the greatest need is right now. There would be a fair bit in social studies but I could not give you (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: However, you have increased (inaudible) from last year.

MR. PRESS: Oh yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the main thing question, that you are moving forward.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: Also on text books, one of the more difficult things to do in the schools is to recover the textbooks that are given out to social assistance recipients. I am not sure how successful it has been. Is this part of your department or another department?

MS DELANEY: When the program was implemented to require students of social assistance recipients to return the textbooks to the schools, I think that was in fact in response to many letters that we got from principals, teachers and from other groups with respect to the desire to ensure that the textbooks were returned and were available for other students. We have had that program in place now for about three years. I am new to the department, as the minister said earlier - three of us in fact are new - so I do not know if there has been an evaluation done on how successful that program is. There is no doubt that we need to look at it and determine as to whether it has been successful, and if not, what changes do we need to make to the program to ensure that it is administratively efficient and it is achieving the original objective.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that reflected in the revenue here as to how much was recovered? Do you have any breakdown?

MS DELANEY: It does not show in the revenue. How it shows is in the amount of textbooks we would have to buy. What would happen is that if the child returns his or her textbooks, then that basically means that there would be less textbooks that the Province would have to buy. It is not shown in the actual revenue. The revenue is from students in grades IX-XII where they pay a portion of the cost for the textbooks.

MR. HEDDERSON: My understanding is that in the schools and that, that is part of their budget. When they bring out the books and these slips come in and they are all tabulated, then they are sent in. Where does the money go? The principals will send it in to School Supplies, and they will send it down to another department, I assume. So you are not paid for the books.

MS DELANEY: For the social assistance recipients?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS DELANEY: My understanding as to how the system works is that we are not paid for the books per se. It just means that we purchase. In our subhead here, .04, Supplies, we would purchase fewer books because of the social assistance recipients returning the textbooks.

MR. HEDDERSON: I mean the new books that are given now -

MS DELANEY: That comes in under revenue under Revenue-Provincial, .02.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is my mistake.

MS FOOTE: The $1 million.

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: I'm sorry, Florence. I had you on the wrong page there, right? Initially. Because like I said, the program, from what I have seen from it, is not a successful program and that is what is causing me some concern. That it is set up and the department is taking the time to set it up, and I tell you the recovery rate in my past school was very low.

MS FOOTE: That is interesting. Do you have a percentage, or do you know?

MR. HEDDERSON: I will tell you, I will not talk about figures. Out of ten, let's say, if we just use the number ten, I would say one.

MS FOOTE: Alright.

MR. HEDDERSON: It could be above or whatever, but that is why I was curious to find if indeed the same experience has been in other schools. I know there was a lot of backlash about having to collect it and that. It is very difficult, because once your exams are over, especially in the high school, the students will bring the books home and your collection possibilities are more limited, plus the fact that they have to bring the books in and almost put them on your doorstep, which perhaps is not a dignified way to do it. There were different factors involved, but I was curious on a provincial level as to how successful that program actually is.

Under 2.1.07, the French school board, I am just curious about the setting up of the French school board because there appears to be a federal-provincial agreement here. I just wonder what was that agreement and how is it playing out. Because it seems as if the federal funds are getting less and less. Again, Minister, what would have been the agreement and what stage are we at right now?

MS DELANEY: I do not know all the details of the agreement. I forget the time frame but I do know that the amount of funding from the federal government is declining on an annual basis. I thought the agreement was a seven- or ten-year agreement, so it has a fairly long time frame. The provincial contribution will undoubtedly increase to some extent if the federal contribution starts to decline.

WITNESS: Florence, I can probably speak to that a little because I met with the board this morning actually and talked about this particular issue.

There were actually two different federal agreements that came into play here. The first one was for the past two fiscal years and the other one is for six years, which goes out for another four. The agreements front-loaded the funding that went to the francophone board in the early years on the federal side and if the federal revenues drop off over the six years then the provincial revenues increase. The reason why there was a lot of front-loading at the very beginning was the one-time cost in actually getting the board up and running.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the Province has kicked in extra dollars as you can see, but the question is this. Is it enough to make sure that this board keeps up and running, so to speak?

MS FOOTE: The last meeting I had with them certainly indicated that it was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.01.01, Curriculum Development, there is fluctuation in the salaries there. Have we lost anyone or changed it around?

MS FOOTE: There was an entrepreneurship education project and that has been completed, so the individual who was responsible for that -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but all the other areas apparently have been filled right down through.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Curriculum Development, the reorganized high school is one of the main areas that needs to be looked at with regard to - and I am looking at what stage it is right now, as to how many courses, total, you are going to develop and replace the ones that are now in the system. If you could give me a total of the courses I would appreciate that. At what stage are we at right now?

MS FOOTE: Do you mean the prescribed curriculum right now in the department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Now I know the math is probably coming on stream in September. There are courses coming on stream in September of 1999, 2000 or even 2001. I think two years ago the Level Is would have been under these new certifications. Again, this is with regard to course development and the actual courses that are going in. Because we are taking out some of the courses now, the textbooks are running out, you are not replacing them, but the new courses are coming on stream. Again, could you just give me a total of the courses that will be available? When is it going to end? How many courses are there, and where are we right now?

MS FOOTE: Do you have a breakdown, Harold?

MR. PRESS: Yes. For example, this year we are looking at mathematics, English language arts in senior high school, APEF, social studies, re in elementary and senior high, art and design, Phys. ed., science, career preparation and technology (inaudible).

There are a number of pilots that are scheduled. For example, English language arts in Grade IX and 1201, writing, Canadian Literature, primary mathematics, grades I to III, Mathematics 1204, Science 1206, Healthy Living 1200, Integrated Systems 1205. Technology is in grades VII and VIII, and World Geography 3000. Also, New Language Arts 2201, and Mathematics 2204, World Studies 3206, Science 2200. Biology 2201 has been developed, Chemistry 2202 has been developed, Physics 2204, and Phys. Ed K-VI. That is the plan in curriculum development this year.

(Inaudible) quite (inaudible). We have ten consultants across the span from science and language arts to primary, kindergarten, technology, fine arts, enterprise ed., mathematics, community and economic development and social studies.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the question is this. When will the first true graduates of this reorganized high school - because you mentioned some of the primary and elementary ones - come out with the courses that are supposed to be in place for the reorganized high school? 2001?

MR. PRESS: I'm not sure if I understand the question. Our curriculum has been under development for the last number of years and we have graduates every year, so I am sort of missing the point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Two years ago the reorganized high schools were brought on the table and courses are being developed as we speak. Last year I think it was six courses, this year you have mentioned probably another six. Right? What I'm saying is that you mentioned you are piloting these particular ones, but what I'm saying is that we are still on the old and the new. So my question -

MR. PRESS: I don't think you will ever have anybody who was actually going to be a new graduate from everything new.

MR. HEDDERSON: It has to happen sometime and that is what I am asking. When will the graduates truly go through the reorganized high school?

MS FOOTE: That will take a number of years, I would expect, by the time all of the new courses are introduced in the system. This is going from thirty-six to forty-two credits.

MR. HEDDERSON: Forty-two credits now. They do forty-two credits over three years. As a matter of fact, the reorganized high school is talking about forty-six or probably forty-eight credits, giving students the opportunity to do courses not only in the classroom but outside. When the reorganized high school came in, we assumed that it came in for a short period of time, but obviously the pilot courses must be dragging.

MR. PRESS: It is a long time, and it takes time to develop a curriculum. It takes time as the teachers' committees get established, as they go through the development process, as we go through the pilot process. We will be highlighting I think it is eleven courses this year. Then it will take a strategy to do the implementation, to Train the Trainer, and then to actually implement the course to be going and actually to assess them as that course is implemented. Then we have graduates coming. It does take time to fully develop a curriculum.

For APEF, social studies for example, we have for the high school program now about a four-year projected time frame by which to fully implement that new social studies curriculum. It takes time.

MR. HEDDERSON: The money that has been spent on this, where would that show up in the budget?

MS FOOTE: In Curriculum Development?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: Would that be under Purchased Services? Well, Salaries certainly in terms of (inaudible).

MR. PRESS: Certainly Transportation and Communications, Salaries, would be most of it. A lot of the curriculum development is in travel and so on for teachers to come together as committees and so on.

The actual consultants themselves, while they are there, and they are highly qualified and very specialized and so on, the old paradigm was that they sat down and developed curriculum. In the new paradigm is that they do not. They basically coordinate committee work where they bring together art teachers and science teachers and so on who actually, themselves, develop the materials and so on.

Once that happens, then they look at what kinds of resource materials are required. In some cases, new resource materials may have to be developed or contracted out, and you have printing costs and so on. Contracts have to be done to get the materials available so that we can actually distribute these materials. Then you have to go into a training professional development scheme where we do Train the Trainer now which is a different paradigm, where we go into the school boards and train people who can go out to schools and basically do in-service and so on on that curriculum.

MS FOOTE: Harold, do you want to speak to what we are doing with the other Atlantic Provinces in terms of curriculum development as well?

MR. PRESS: We have a major strategy on APEF that was committed some years ago. The curriculum, for example social studies, now we are looking at the full K through XII, Level III social studies which will be done through the Atlantic Provinces. That takes time because now not only are we coordinating provincial committees of teachers and so on who actually develop curriculum, but now we are trying to coordinate that on an interprovincial level and so on. Part of our commitment is coordinated with the other three Atlantic Provinces in a number of curriculum areas such as social studies, science and chemistry now. That has been in effect for a number of years and is probably our one true public exam that we have right now for the last, I guess, three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: What area are we taking the lead in with regard to the Atlantic?

MR. PRESS: We take the lead in a number of areas. For example, in part of, I think, the intermediate social studies we are they lead, and part of the religious ed we are the lead, and a number of others. I cannot recall (inaudible).

WITNESS: Math.

MR. PRESS: Mathematics, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.02, Language Programs, under the First Language and the French Immersion programs, the federal government is involved. Obviously, the First Language is with the school board, I would assume, and the French Immersion is with all the other school boards.

MS FOOTE: You mean the francophone board?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. I would assume the First Language - would that be correct?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The French Immersion then would be dispersed amongst the other ten boards?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is the criteria for the French Immersion Programs with regard to the boards? Is it divvied up, how would I say, equally? Like, if someone wanted a French Immersion program out in `no-name' cove, could they possibly apply and get it? How is it done?

MR. PRESS: It is usually determined by the board based upon the demand. For example, if there is a program down in Torbay - and it is basically driven by demand - if there are enough parents down there the board will try and put the resources together to offer a French Immersion program. If there are three parents there it is unlikely they would. I do not think the economics would be there. It is usually driven by need and where the economics are such that they can offer the program. It is up to the board to really determine where it will offer those.

MS FOOTE: I guess the question would be: Are the resources available to us if all ten boards wanted to offer French Immersion?

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, is there a cap on French Immersion? In the sense that the board has to apply to - you are the keepers of the fund. Even though it is federally funded, you are the keepers. Therefore if a board has a need, as Harold has pointed out, they would address it to you. Do you just look at the need or do you say: So much goes to this board, so much goes to that board, or whatever?

MS FOOTE: We respond to the boards, essentially, until we run out of the money that we have.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.03, Distance Education, how many sites do we have now?

MS FOOTE: Eighty sites, Province-wide.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that the same as last year? Have we added any new sites this year or do you anticipate any new ones?

MS FOOTE: We have nine district networks now and that is the eighty sites. Is that an increase?

MR. PRESS: It is a very marginal increase. (Inaudible) it was in the high seventies last year so it is not a significant increase.

MR. HEDDERSON: The courses offered in Distance Education, do you have the number and the nature?

MS FOOTE: Senior high course enrolment for courses offered through Distance Education are as follows. We have six in French: French 2100, French 2101, French 2200, French 3200, French 3201 and French 4225. We also offer Psychology 4220. In math you have three advanced math courses. You have Business Math 3202, Calculus Readiness 3105 and you have Math 1300, Math 2200, Math 3200, Math 4225, and Statistics 3104. Under science you have Biology 4221, then you have three chemistry courses and three physics courses.

There is social studies, European history 4225, then tech ed.: Communications Technology 2104, Design Technology 2109, Keyboarding/Wordprocessing 1101, Design Technology 2109, Flexible Manufacturing System 3220, Home Maintenance 3108, Integrated Technology 1215, Microcomputer Systems 1100, Manufacturing Technology 1220. There is also Marine Technology 2128, Power Mechanics 2103, Robotics 3221, Technical Applications 2146, and two woodworking courses. All these through Distance Education.

WITNESS: I am asking that because that is a lot of courses. I think I may do woodworking myself.

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible) do it. Holy heavens. I was prepared to rhyme off the math, science and the French.

MR. HEDDERSON: Anyway, my point would be, Minister, that what drives the courses, and if indeed what you have read off there is in fact the accessibility, obviously someone is looking at the full range of it. The only question is: Are they available through all the sites and can the schools access to them?

MS FOOTE: I do not know. I expect there would be different subjects available through different sites, again, I guess, depending on the wishes of the board as well in what they have indicated they would like to have available.

MR. LEWIS: A lot of the additional expenditures that were in Distance Education last year were involved in establishing district networks as opposed to one provincial network, which allows the districts more flexibility in timing and the programs that they offer.

MR. HEDDERSON: That would be the Purchased Services there, Dave -

MR. LEWIS: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: - that jumped up, I do not know, (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is a one-shot deal, so to speak, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will go on to the next one down, 2.3.02, Student Testing and Evaluation. Again, my colleague has been there before me. Under Student Testing and Evaluation, would this be where the CRTs would be located? I am just curious about them because it does take a lot of time and effort. What is the cost associated with the CRTs?

MR. PRESS: The cost runs about an average of between $5,000 and $10,000 each so these are significant.

MR. HEDDERSON: As in each grade level, the III-VI to IX-XII?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Under the -

WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Hedderson. Just for the edification of us non-teachers, what is a CRT?

MR. HEDDERSON: Criterion Reference Test. I'm sorry about that.

This particular program you are going to continue.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What have you found are the benefits of this? I will tell you why I ask. At the grade III level I find it difficult to understand why you would administer tests to a grade III and take the time and effort to do it. I think it is Harold I would address it to. Have you had anything in the way of negative feedback from -

MR. PRESS: A lot of the negative feedback tends to deal with the time it takes to do it and whether or not it is an appropriate time in a school year (inaudible) be testing, whether or not as a classroom teacher you have covered the material that has been tested on. Many teachers might feel uncomfortable, for example, that we are doing the CRT during a particular month in the year and we have not covered some of the material there and are uncomfortable with the test at that point in time.

It does take time to do the test and so on. It is not without its downside, but at the same time it gives us a good indication of whether or not the material is being covered in the curriculum, and gives us an indication of how we are throughout the Province in terms of testing in various particular areas, such as mathematics and language arts and so on.

MS FOOTE: Are those the only two areas that we do?

MR. PRESS: No, we do CRTs in language arts, mathematics, French Immersion, social studies. We don't do them all for the same grades in the same year. We do different grades, different years.

MR. HEDDERSON: Do they end up doing the same ones in VI, IX and XII?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: If you start off with language arts, and you are going to do language arts in VI, you are going to do it in IX and you are going to do it in XII. So your control group would be there.

MR. PRESS: You do not want to do it in every year. You want to do it in a group of years by which you get some sense of how students do at the end of primary, how they do generally at the end of elementary, and how they do generally at the end of intermediate school, or what we used to know as junior high.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Support Services, 2.4.01, I have to ask the question under .04, Supplies. There is a little bit of a difference there.

MS FOOTE: Under where?

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Supplies.

MS FOOTE: Yes. That is the one that I guess the other Tom asked the question about, with respect to implementing the Canning report.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will follow through. Could you indicate why so much, and what aspects of the report?

MS FOOTE: This would have to do with the learning resources. Again, taking the material and getting it translated into Braille, putting books on tape, and anything that would be required to assist the special category teachers in carrying out their functions.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, we looked under School Supplies and you were doing the same thing there.

MS FOOTE: No, that is the $244,000. That is where that one is coming from specifically.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Support Services, right there, the extra money that was used last year was used to action the Canning report. The Canning report said that you had to put together this instructional material. (Inaudible). Back in School Supplies you also said you were doing that as well. Is this a duplication?

MS FOOTE: Maybe that may have been my mistake.

MR. HEDDERSON: Because there was a hundred and something dollars back there too, right?

MS DELANEY: We talked about it when we referenced what was spent on the School Supplies, but the money for supplies, for the Canning report, was all spent under Student Support Services Supplies. The full $244,000 was all spent under Student Support Services Supplies. No money for Supplies for the Canning report was spent under the School Supplies subhead.

MS FOOTE: That would be the textbooks?

MS DELANEY: Textbooks.

MS FOOTE: Then that would have been my mistake because I made the assumption that it was all covered under that one.

MS DELANEY: But it is not.

MS FOOTE: It is not. Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was a one-shot deal too, wasn't it? We won't expect the same thing this year.

The Pathways Document has been implemented. Where does that show up with regard to cost or in-service? Does that show up under this or is that Curriculum Development?

MS FOOTE: What aspect of it?

MR. HEDDERSON: The Pathways Document is a document that has been, I suppose, slowly implemented into the schools starting with the high school and now moving down through the grades. It is a document that calls for a lot of in-service. I was interested in finding out how much is going into it, not only last year, but what is going into it this year?

MR. PRESS: The Pathways framework is a framework by how we, essentially, look at (inaudible) allocations. The PD is an interesting one. We were using sort of a cascade model by which we do a lot of train the trainer. We go out and work with the school board staff. I think we have done the train the trainer sessions and so on in eight out of ten school boards now. Those trainers will go out and meet with different schools and in-service the issues related to the Pathways framework.

MR. HEDDERSON: With 6,000 plus teachers what stage are you at now?

MR. PRESS: In terms of what we have done with the train the trainer, we have done eight out of ten boards. For example - I do not have the data on all the boards - I believe the Burin Peninsula has almost implemented fully throughout their board in terms of professional development throughout, and the trainers have been trained and so on. I think there are only two boards left where we have done, actually, some initial work but we plan to go do a more comprehensive train the trainer, I think, three-day session with the other two boards, probably within the next several weeks.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the Pathways Document is now being used in the school, is it not?

MR. PRESS: The Pathways framework is a three-year phased-in process of which this is only the first year. It is not something that we will in September 1, 1999 have fully implemented. It is one that we will phase in over the next three years. Hopefully the documentation that is required to really identify all the children (inaudible) exceptionalities who need modified programming and so on, we will achieve that within the next three-year period.

MS FOOTE: I think some boards were under the impression - or wanted to do it all in the first year. That was causing some difficulty out in the system because of the pressures being put on the teachers to get this done and get it done the first year. That certainly was not the directive from the department. It certainly clearly was a three-year process.

MR. PRESS: We recognize that there is a lot of misinformation about Pathways out there and so on. We need to do a better job in communicating that. One of the things we have done since we have arrived in the last few weeks is begin a meeting with the NLTA and NLSTA and so on and work through some of the issues around Pathways, and see if we can alleviate some of the concerns, change maybe the processes, try and address some of the expectations, and do a better job communicating with and among teachers on this.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is a distinction here too, because the Pathways document, Minister, was introduced in the high schools not this year but a number of years ago. This one is almost, if not fully, implemented.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So all the high schools in the Province now should be in the second or third year in the document, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Whereas you are saying that the primary, elementary and intermediate would be another two or three years.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: On to 2.4.03, Newfoundland School for the Deaf. Just globally there, there is a decrease in the funding for the Newfoundland School for the Deaf, not in every category, but it just seems that the bottom line in some areas, like Transportation and Communications, Supplies, Purchases Services, and in Property, Furnishings and Equipment is lower. I assume that this institution would be under a set budget and if they are given, for example, for Property, Furnishings and Equipment, .07, $34,800, that they will spend $34,800. If they are given $199,300 for Purchased Services, .06, they will (inaudible) and spend it.

I'm correct in assuming that the principal or the administration of that particular institution has a set budget, but in some areas it is down. Is there any reason for that?

MS FOOTE: That was an across the board operational reduction, but we are having another look at that.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is my question exactly. Because, again, I know the great work that has been done in there and I would hate to see that type of an institution get cut, for obvious reasons.

MS FOOTE: Under Purchased Services you are looking at things like the laundry and catering, so we have to be careful there. We are going to go back and have a look at that area.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think I will stop there, but I reserve the right perhaps to ask another couple of questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Hedderson.

Mr. Parsons is next, and then we will come back to Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Press, I guess it is, Mr. Osborne raised the question initially about the decline in the number of teachers, urban versus rural. Did I hear you correctly that there has been a 1 per cent decline of teachers in the urban areas and it is 16.7 per cent in rural areas?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Not withstanding the SNES schools, there is still that much of a discrepancy, 16 per cent? Why would that be?

MR. PRESS: It is probably because there was an 18 per cent drop in enrolment.

MS FOOTE: In rural.

MR. PRESS: During that same period, the enrolment in rural schools dropped from 50,000 students to 40,000 students, just about 20 per cent. The number of teachers in rural schools dropped from 3,500 to 2,900, which is roughly equivalent to about 4 per cent less, (inaudible) about 15 per cent or 16 per cent in the last three years.

MR. PARSONS: Yes. I do not have a question, but I would comment, though. I think your department is to be commended from what I have seen here tonight in the way you people have handled your questions. If this team just got together, you are certainly a Stanley Cup contender or will be very shortly. Given the promptness of your answers, I would think that the Question Period would be substantially reduced after this.

CHAIR: Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a few questions on some of the topics that have been covered by Members of the Committee. On the topic of insurance, I am just curious about something. Madam Minister, you mentioned that, I think, the insurance coverage is done in conjunction with another department.

MS FOOTE: Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: A portion of that is allocated for schools, so I'm assuming all the schools in the Province are insured under a blanket policy. Is that right?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: What is the arrangement in terms, for example, of a deductible? Is there a deductible clause of some significance that would be associated with that insurance, I suppose resulting in the fact that the premiums are now lower? As you have indicated, or I think Ms Delaney mentioned, the rates are now lower. Is there a higher deductible that the Province would pay in the event of a substantial loss?

MS DELANEY: Not to my knowledge. The deductible has normally been about $1.5 million, I believe. Have I got it right, David?

MR. LEWIS: In the last year on the EIC projects it was about $3.5 million, actually.

MS DELANEY: No, that is cash only.

MR. LEWIS: Yes, but there were a large number of projects that were involved there. (Inaudible) two rates.

MS DELANEY: I think where we have been able to benefit is because of the fact that instead of in the past, where we went out for a school property insurance policy and Works, Services and Transportation went out for their government buildings property policy, we have gained because of the fact that we have been able to combine efforts and go out with one tender call.

I would have to double-check, but to my knowledge the deductible has not increased. We have gained because of the fact that we have bulk purchased, as the minister said, and the rates have come down as a result of that.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So is there a deductible for each loss, Mr. Lewis? Is that what you are referring to? Or is there a maximum? How would that work?

MR. LEWIS: My understanding is they accumulate to a maximum. Is that right, Florence?

MS DELANEY: It is an amount in any one year, apparently. The way the policy works, or the way the policy did work - I do not know how this year's policy works, because it may change - was that the government would be responsible for the loss up to $1.5 million in any one year. Any loss in excess of that would be covered by the insurance policy. When Dave refers to a payout of $3.5 million in one year, that may have accumulated over three or four years because we do not pay until such time as we actually rebuild some of the buildings that we would have lost.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: How would that be reflected in the Estimates? Is that done in the allocation to each school board? For example, if a portion were paid under a policy using $1.5 million as an example, where would that be reflected in the Estimates?

MS DELANEY: We pay that through the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation. The monies that we now flow to the Education Investment Corporation, that Corporation is responsible for paying not only for the normal construction, but also for the Province's deductible in the event of a loss under the insurance policy.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Again, I just may not be reading this correctly, but looking at the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation for this year, there is no figure.

MS DELANEY: That is right. Because what we have done is given the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation a total of $50 million over the past three years, so they have more than sufficient funds right now to handle any deductible they would required to pay for an insurance loss, as well as to handle the cash flow required for the projects that are ongoing for the upcoming fiscal year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: On that point then, and looking at the construction board, that figure of $29,900,000, which is revised in the 1998-1999 budget, is that taking into account the total of two years or is that just last year?

MS DELANEY: No, that is taking into account a total of two years, and perhaps a little bit more than two years.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I have a question on school buildings. Where we have had significant consolidation and closure of schools over the past while, we have a lot of vacant buildings in the Province, and a lot of facilities that are essentially closed up. What steps are being taken by the department to either lease, sell, use again as a public facility, or sell privately these facilities?

I am thinking of one example in particular. In the community of Long Harbour a school was closed I think last year, the children all bused to Whitbourne, and there is a beautiful gymnasium facility there that I think was refurbished some two or three years ago to a cost of $250,000. When the school closed in the last academic year so did that particular facility; so did the gymnasium that is attached to the school. What does the department envisage will happen with a facility such as that example in one Newfoundland community?

MS FOOTE: In some cases we have had some expressions of interest but I think those particular - correct me if I am wrong - facilities have been church-owned property. Of course, we have not been able to do anything along those lines because presently the boards are in negotiations with the churches in terms of disposal of those particular facilities.

We really haven't had any expression of interest for other facilities but we certainly would entertain them. We have nothing to stop us from entertaining them to see how they could benefit a community.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Has the department taken any steps to promote that concept in the communities where schools are now closed but are still there and available to the community? Perhaps not as schools, but certainly as a facility that may be of some benefit.

MS FOOTE: Not since I have been there. I do not know if it was done prior to my coming but it is not a bad idea in terms of the community being able to access that type of facility. Someone would have to purchase it because if anyone were to use it we would be liable if we still owned the property, clearly, so we would have to -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible) insurance policy.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now to the textbook policy in schools. I know it was, and I am assuming that it is the same, that for the high school text book the student pays a certain percentage.

MS FOOTE: It is subsidized.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Primary and elementary are fully compensated by the department. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Under 2.l.02, School Board Operations, in the heading there it mentions:

"Appropriations provide for the administrative and operational costs of the Province's schools, insurance of school property and the payment of allowances to those students who are required to live away from home in order to attend high school."

What numbers are we talking about in terms of students who are required to leave their home in order to attend high school?

MS FOOTE: Fifty-four students.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Fifty-four students? Just out of curiosity, what communities would theses students (inaudible).

WITNESS: Southeast Bight, (inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: I had three communities, Petites, LaPoile and Grand Bruit.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: These students would leave them and where (inaudible)?

MR. PARSONS: Port aux Basques.

MS FOOTE: Where they would board.

MR. PARSONS: They would board out in Port aux Basques.

MS FOOTE: Rural Newfoundland.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Fifty-four students is the actual number?

MR. PRESS: Yes, I checked it today.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you.

I have a question on francophone education, under 2.l.07, Francophone Governance. If you compare that with 2.2.02, Language Programs, we see under Language Programs that all costs are recovered from the federal government. However, under Francophone Governance, and even with the francophone school board, you see approximately 50 per cent or 60 per cent of costs are recovered. Do you agree that I am approximately correct? What is it we pay for, as opposed to the federal government paying for, in terms of Francophone Governance as opposed to the Language Programs?

MS FOOTE: Do you know the agreement inside out?

WITNESS: There is a 75-25 cost-shared agreement under Francophone Governance to establish the school boards.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So it is not broken down in any way. It is just a total expenditure and then just a percentage is applied, is it?

WITNESS: Then there is cash flow over so many years.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I see.

MS FOOTE: It is not specific in terms of what they pay for and what we pay for (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: If I may, I am going to go back again to Transportation of School Children. That is under heading 2.1.02.10. I think my colleague alluded to it in his questions. Again, it refers to the, I guess, closure of schools and the amalgamation of others, and yet we see the costs of Transportation of School Children essentially being the same the last school year, or the year 1998-1999, compared with 1999-2000 in the Estimates.

Is there some rationale that may be offered to explain that equality of cost in terms of transportation when in fact we have seen significant closures and the eroding of duplication of services?

MS DELANEY: Part of the reason why the cost has remained relatively the same is the 2 per cent salary increase. Half of the budget probably goes to board owned busing and the other half goes to contracted busing. We have to pay as well for new buses that we purchase and we have to pay the annual lease payments on those buses.

The other thing as well that we have to look at as a department is whether, now that most schools have been reorganized, we can enter into long-term contracts for contracted busing, and then hopefully they will enable us to save some money in that area. That is something we intend to look at over the next year or so as we look at that whole area of busing.

MS FOOTE: We are also anticipating some increased busing costs in the St. John's area because of some of the closures. We are meeting with the board on that to look at that as well.

MS DELANEY: One of the problems with busing normally is that if you enter into just a one-year contract with a private operator then that operator has to try to cover his or her costs for the bus within that one-year period. Whereas once you have your schools re-configured, and if you are able to enter into a five-year contract with a contractor, then that would enable us hopefully to reduce our costs in this particular area. It has been pretty difficult to enter into five-year contracts until such time as you have your school system re-configured.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There was a policy I know in the past in the department that buses could be purchased if they were some thirteen or fourteen years old. I think we had a policy that was - the age of buses was of some concern. I know other provinces had a practise of buying older buses as well, but not to the extent of here in this Province. Has that policy changed, that thirteen or fourteen year old policy?

Basically, a bus contractor in Newfoundland can go to Chatham, Ontario or over to Edmundston, New Brunswick somewhere and buy buses that are thirteen or fourteen years old, take them back to this Province, and put them on our highways. We have our children travelling greater distances because of what is happening in terms of school closures and so on. Has that policy been looked at at all to see as to exactly what sort of limit should be placed on the age of buses before they go on our roads?

MS FOOTE: I am sorry, I am not aware of that.

MS DELANEY: I am not sure whether the policy has been revisited or not. Again, going back to the point I made earlier, if we can enter into five-year contracts with bus operators out there it will give us an opportunity to be able to request buses of, perhaps, less than ten years of age, and still within the same total dollar amount that we would have available. You have to remember that it is Motor Vehicle Registration, in fact, that actually determines the safety regulations with respect to school busing. They are the ones, if I recall properly, which have set the age restriction at fourteen years.

MS FOOTE: It is fourteen, is it?

MS DELANEY: It is fourteen. It used to be fourteen.

WITNESS: It still is.

MS FOOTE: It still is?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Getting back to the point made by Madam Minister, busing in St. John's, just obviously out of an interest in that because it involves my own district, is the department looking at the possibility of busing students even in areas where public transportation is provided?

MS FOOTE: I guess the discussion that we are having with the board to date is in areas where it is not provided, where the public transit does not go at this point in time. That is the first priority, clearly, to make sure that those students are able to avail of school busing. We haven't taken -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible) policy now though, isn't it?

MS FOOTE: If you look at down in Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, for instance, there are children down there now that go to school in other parts of the City. There is no busing available to them but they have to make their own way. We have been looking at that particular area to see what could be done there to try and accommodate those students for sure.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The question on the pupil-teacher formula comes up all the time, (inaudible) sixteen to one, seventeen to one, or whatever. Every time it is mentioned it is always qualified: We have a great pupil-teacher ratio, seventeen to one, or whatever the number is. Then the response to that is: Oh yes, but that includes guidance councillors, librarians, administrators or whatever. Is it possible that some consideration may be given by the department to revise the formula, but a true formula, so that it is not necessary all the time to qualify it when it is expressed? Because everybody now knows anybody dealing with education always says: It makes no different what the point of it is because we are including a whole host of people that have nothing to do with actual classroom instruction.

MS FOOTE: It is the same across the country, by the way. It is not just Newfoundland.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Can we lead the way perhaps and really address the issue and see if we can come up with a true formula so that it is not necessary to always have to qualify?

MS FOOTE: In terms of the pupil-teacher ratio, again, that is how the formula is applied across the country so they include everyone. In terms of being comparable, what we are saying is that our pupil-teacher ratio is, again, compared to what it would be in other provinces given the same number of teachers, whether it is guidance counsellors, librarians or whatever they are.

What we have undertaken to do - and I undertook to do this two months into the portfolio - essentially was to look at teacher allocations and the basis on which they are being allocated, primarily because we have gone through education reform when it comes to the consolidation of schools. I think if you look, particularly in rural Newfoundland, that there is not much left to be done. Some boards still have three or four schools that they will be looking at closing, but I would say I think it is a safe bet to say that the majority of the consolidation has in fact taken place.

We now really have to focus on programming. When I say focus on programming, it is just not to offer a core program but to look at the needs of the special education student, the exceptional student, as well as those in the regular stream, to make sure that we are offering a program in every part of this Province. Equality of programming is what we are looking at and we have agreed to do that working with the stakeholders. What I am trying to do first is get a handle on what is happening in the rest of the country as well, trying to find out what courses are being offered, for instance.

You know, we offer a variety of courses under the prescribed curriculum right now. In the high school, for instance, there are about 162 courses under the prescribed curriculum. There are another 101 courses that are not part of the prescribed curriculum but are courses that have been developed by teachers for those who have a special interest in a particular area, whether it is German, Spanish, interior design, or whether it is a particular calculus course. You have over 270 courses that are out there that can be offered in the high school system.

We really need to look at the programs that hare being offered. This is why we are saying now the second step, now that we have gone the consolidation route, is now to look at curriculum development, professional development, and try and get a handle on the courses that we should be offering, so at the end of the day our students will have the best possible access to those courses that will enable them to go on and compete anywhere in the world.

Some of the courses we are offering now - textiles, woodworking, safety in the workplace, interior design, those types of courses - which there are not a lot of them available in rural Newfoundland, mind you, more so in the urban areas, but I had a principal say the other day: One of the courses we are going to lose because of teacher reduction is woodworking.

While that is a good course and one I am sure students would like to take, we have to start thinking of stakeholders in education and involving the NLTA and involving the Newfoundland School Boards Association, and the parent or the school councils, in looking at the curriculum as well to make sure that what we are offering is a good sound program.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, I notice that we have not really gotten into post-secondary, which is a significant part of the Education Estimates, so what I will do, if I may, is maybe afterwards just be able to come back and ask questions from that area.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: I do not have any questions at this time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIR: I guess it comes back to Tom the elder.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of questions for post-secondary actually, and then I will pass it to my colleague to ask a few others. Under Program Analysis and Evaluation, 3.1.01.01, Salaries, the budget has gone up for this year, from what was actually spent last year, by an additional $86,700. Can the minister give some explanation as to why there is an increase in that allocation?

MS FOOTE: These are the costs associated with the two additional monitors that were hired for the monitoring of the private colleges. Again, a lot of this stems out of the Warren report.

MR. T. OSBORNE: .03, the Transportation and Communications component, as well there is an additional $41,400.

MS FOOTE: It is costs associated with that in travel with monitors.

MR. T. OSBORNE: With those monitors, okay. Under .02, Revenue-Provincial, I have noticed that what is budgeted for the provincial revenue is the same this year as was budgeted last year, but what was received as revenue was considerably less. Can you give us some explanation as to why we did not receive what we had anticipated receiving?

MS WALSH: The revenue comes from the registration fees from private schools. The revenue that was originally allocated was not received because there were not as many schools registering as it had been anticipated there would be. Some of the schools that had been in existence, perhaps just offering one program, did not re-register, discontinued (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: I guess some of them would have been offering programs under the TAGS programs. Of course, once the funding ran out they ceased to exist.

MR. T. OSBORNE: You are anticipating higher registrations this year?

MS WALSH: We are anticipating that because there have been new campuses, in some cases, of existing schools, for registration purposes these will be considered in the schools. So there has been, I guess, an offsetting with respect to additional campuses of existing schools.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Native Peoples' Teacher Education, 3.1.02, there has been an increase in the allotment of revenue from the federal government. Can you explain why - not that we are complaining - the increase in the allotment?

MS WALSH: No, I do not think I can, but it certainly does relate to the teacher education associated with the native teachers' education program. I do not know if Dave can answer that. I think perhaps it is just a recognition that there may be an increase in the number of people, for example, who wish to access that program, and somewhat demand driven in that sense.

MS FOOTE: Would there be a pay increase of any sort? How much is it?

MS WALSH: It would possibly -

MS FOOTE: Twenty-four thousand dollars.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Almost $24,000. It is $400 shy of $24,000.

MS DELANEY: If you look at page 180 of our Estimates, as well, you would see that Native Peoples' Education has two components. One is the K-XII component, the other is post-secondary. We are up in both areas, in fact. The amount that we normally get from Native Peoples' Education is determined through negotiations between our department and the federal government. That is an area, I think, where we have been getting some increased funding over the past couple of years. If you look at K-XII, 2.1.03, it is also up for Native Peoples' Education.

MS WALSH: That would be somewhat demand driven on the post-secondary side. If there are more people wishing to access the teacher education program than we had negotiated, the amount would certainly go up on the post-secondary side.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Provincial College, 3.3.01.10, Operations, Grants and Subsidies, there is an increase there of $4,977,300.

MS FOOTE: That was the contribution of the - remember? - $4.9 million which was provided so that they would freeze tuition for two years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: We notice under .01, Revenue-Federal, that there is no federal revenue this year.

MS FOOTE: Yes. HRDC has ceased the practice of providing funds to the Province for seat purchases. We have been in negotiations with them for some period of time. Pam, I understand there may be a change of heart on that, where they may in fact be looking at getting back into that again. Do you want to elaborate on that?

MS WALSH: Yes. The federal government used to, under a government to government arrangement, purchase seats from the provincial government and (inaudible) the provincial college. For that purchased seat they would give us in the order of $3 million, $4 million or $5 million depending on the number of seats they wanted.

They had a made a decision over a couple of years ago that instead of doing that kind of government to government negotiation in terms of seat purchases they would let the individual student decide where they wanted to go for post-secondary education, and then they would simply give that student however much tuition it cost to go to the institution of their choice.

We have been in negotiations with them because that causes some difficulty with respect to planning, knowing how many students that you are going to get, or how many seat purchases you are going to get as an institution from the federal government, and making sure that you provide that level of programming. We are anticipating now that we will in fact get an allocation from the federal government much like we have in the past.

So we are anticipating that we will get much like a government to government revenue again. Although it is a complicated and convoluted kind of process, and it would probably take me about thirty minutes to explain what it is they intend to do. If you want that I will do it. The bottom line is we will sign off on a contribution agreement which will see the federal government give to the provincial government a sum of money in the order of approximately $11 million that will be for training of EI clients.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Newfoundland Student Loans Program, 3.4.03.09, Allowances and Assistance, there has been a considerable increase there. How would you explain the increase under Allowances and Assistance? Is it due to higher enrolment?

MS FOOTE: Increased demand, and higher loans remission take-up as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The tuitions have been frozen this year, is that correct?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: We still see a huge increase though in the Allowances and Assistance.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We have also seen increased interest subsidy because of the higher rates as well. There is a number thing. We anticipate an increase in the risk premium because the banks now are not looking favourably at continuing on in terms of making student loans. We are anticipating some increase there as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: How much has the student enrolment increased?

MS WALSH: In terms of the student aid or the overall increase in enrolment in post-secondary?

MR. T. OSBORNE: In enrolment.

MS WALSH: Over the last four to five years it has increased significantly (inaudible) 20 per cent. I do not have any figures in front of me so I will qualify that, but there has been an increase. I might have that information in here.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is approximately 20 per cent?

MS WALSH: Over the last four or five years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is mainly through public colleges?

MS WALSH: It would be a combination of public institutions, including the university and the public college, but there has certainly been a significant increase in numbers of students accessing university education. It would include private colleges as well.

MS FOOTE: To that point, Tom, (inaudible) the number of borrowers in 1994-1995 was 13,154, and in 1997-1998 it went up to 22,719, a 73 per cent increase over that period of time.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is interesting in a way, because Memorial is getting $2.7 million less this year then they did in 1996, yet we see a tremendous increase in the number of students that are attending Memorial University.

MS FOOTE: Pardon?

MR. T. OSBORNE: I say Memorial University this year is getting approximately $2.7 million less than it did in 1996, yet we see a huge increase in the number of enrolments at Memorial University, just as an example.

MS FOOTE: Do we have the numbers in terms of the increase at MUN, the percentage (inaudible)?

MS WALSH: No, I do not have (inaudible) numbers in front of me, but over the last, as I said, four or five years there has been an increase in the students attending post-secondary. Memorial University's enrolment levels in the last couple of years have not increased significantly because you are getting a declining enrolment from the declining number of graduates from the K-XII system.

So while, if you go back four or five years you will see that there has been an increase in access to post-secondary education, in the last couple of years Memorial University's enrolment levels have levelled out.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, but there is an almost 20 per cent increase in the enrolment this year from last?

MS WALSH: Overall. No, not in Memorial University. I said there is approximately a 20 per cent increase in students accessing post-secondary education over the last four or five years, including Memorial University.

MS FOOTE: The private colleges and (inaudible).

MS WALSH: The private colleges and the College of the North Atlantic.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So is there an increase or decrease in the enrolment at MUN?

MS WALSH: In the last couple of years there has not been a significant increase in enrolment at Memorial.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There has not been an increase?

MS WALSH: From last year to this year I think there has been virtually no significant change in their enrolment, which is interesting. Because you do have a declining student population but they are still maintaining status quo in the last couple of years, despite the fact that there is a declining enrolment in the (inaudible) processing.

MR. GALWAY: In fact, Memorial University's enrolment peaked in about 1993, undergraduate and graduate enrolment. We have seen a decline since 1993 which, of course, (inaudible) to the decline in the number of graduates coming out of the K to XII sector. Memorial takes a large percentage of its undergraduates directly from the K to XII sector. In fact, 61 per cent of our graduates go on to Memorial University and they are experiencing some enrolment decline.

CHAIR: Mr. Galway, could you come closer to the mike, please?

MR. GALWAY: (Inaudible). (Inaudible) if I can.

MS WALSH: Just if I can clarify that? Memorial does take a broad view, too, of its enrolment. They are saying that this past year their enrolment has not significantly declined. They have indicated that it has maintained status quo. They have included in their stats students who are attending the College of the North Atlantic in the college transfer program who are, although they are college students, in fact intending to go to Memorial University in their second year. They included those students in their stats and they said, for example this past year, that they have not seen a significant, if any, decline in their enrolment, but we see it as a decline. As you said, Gerald, they peaked two or three years ago in enrolment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Newfoundland Student Loans Program, 3.4.03.02, Revenue-Provincial, what was budgeted last year and what was actually collected. We had a budget of $50,000 that dissipated under provincial revenue. We only collected $7,500, and this year the budget is $20,000. Can you give some clarification on why the discrepancy in what we anticipated and what we actually collected, and why we are anticipating only $20,000 this year, roughly 40 per cent of what we anticipated last year?

MS WALSH: (Inaudible). What we are anticipating is that we will be able to recover student-paid overpayments in a more effective way than we have in the past. We have realized that we have not been as efficient as we could have been in collecting these overpayments and we intend to put a process in place. In fact, we are putting one in place now to collect on overarrears.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So you collected far less than you had hoped last year. Where did the system go wrong?

MS WALSH: Our system is in terms of the tracking and following-up on students who are in overpayment. We were not as efficient as we could have been so we have improved upon the process.

MS FOOTE: Good point. (Inaudible) we made less overpayments.

MS WALSH: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have one other question and that is under Provincial Information and Library Resources, 4.2.01.10, Grants and Subsidies. We are giving them this year $91,100 less than we gave them last year. Why would we give our provincial public libraries less money?

MS FOOTE: Would that have been an across the board cutback?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: We don't have an answer, Tom. You have finally stumped us.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Alright, I will let you go home. If you had told me that in the first few minutes we would have been out of here.

Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions from this side?

MS JONES: Mr. Chairman, I think the members opposite have covered all aspects of it quite adequately.

CHAIR: Probably then some.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just have one more, Mr. Chairman.

MS JONES: Mr. Chairman, if I could I would like to say that the responses were also covered very adequately.

AN HON. MEMBER: Except for one. Put that in the record.

MS FOOTE: I have to get that answer (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: I hate not having an answer.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, the thing that is near and dear to my heart is the literacy. I just want to draw attention to it.

MS FOOTE: Yes, and mine.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think there was $500,000 set aside. Is this the money there, the $431,000?

MS FOOTE: The $931,000?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It is a one-shot deal, the $500,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so that is the shot. Again, the emphasis, Madam Minister, is of concern. I know at both ends there are real needs, but I'm making a plug for the early intervention. I think it is most important, and I think in the long run these special needs children that we are addressing, sometimes not very well, because of the nature of their exceptionality -

MS FOOTE: That is a very valid point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I would encourage the department to look at ways, almost from the womb, because the more money or the more attention you put in at that end, the better. I will end off on that note.

MS FOOTE: Let me just say that I think it is a very serious issue. We are working with Human Resources and Employment and Health and Community Services to look at the education of the child below kindergarten, seeing if we cannot have a continuum there. So, take a child from, maybe, age two, pre-school, and then on through the school years. It is a very valid point.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I have one question, Mr. Chairman. It has to do with the public libraries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Again, the issue of the university enrolment is (inaudible), and in due course may even go down somewhat. There seems to be an increase in the trend of our graduates leaving Newfoundland for post-secondary studies at other universities and other colleges. Has there been a study undertaken, maybe even a very cursory sort of informal assessment done, on the kinds of numbers we are looking at of our Grade XII graduates who opt to leave the Province as opposed to staying, compared with the practise of maybe five or ten years ago?

MR PRESS: I think that is a really valid point and probably a really (inaudible) one to talk about. The whole issue of demographics is probably one of the most serious issues facing us as a province, not just in education, but in all parts of what we do.

The K-XII system has seen this for twenty-seven years. It has been in decline for twenty-seven years with one exception, and that was the year we introduced grade XII (inaudible) up.

The biggest affect it is going to have in the next decade will be at the university level, at the college level, where even if participation and graduation rates top - participation can only reach 100 per cent, it cannot go any higher - then what it means, in fact, is that there are going to be declines at the post-secondary level, both at the college level and at the university level, in the coming decade and so on.

That will certainly be a huge challenge for us as we look at how we deliver post-secondary programs. Not just maybe through our university, but through distance delivery mechanisms and so on. We are going to have to look at the K-XII system as well as to how we deliver programs, how broad and expansive that program should be, and how we can best approach this in an effective manner and so on. That certainly will be a huge challenge for us in terms of looking at that at the post-secondary level.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues is, again, we are (inaudible) Province (inaudible) look at Central Newfoundland. There is a tendency to go to Nova Scotia, and certainly the same is true on the West Coast of the Province. This is a discussion that I had with Memorial even when I worked at Memorial. Are we, in fact, marketing ourselves, marketing the institution enough throughout the Province, and even offering distance education throughout the Province for first-year university, to build that kind of allegiance as well? That is an ongoing discussion now at Memorial. I think with the new president coming on, Dr. Axel Meisen, (inaudible), I'm not sure (inaudible) which, but in discussions that I have had with him to date he clearly sees the institution as a provincial institution and has every intention of getting out around the Province and talking up Memorial. Instead of having students looking more favourably at St. Francis, Acadia or Dalhousie, in fact they would be inclined to come to St. John's or at least do their first year or offer more in the way of distance education in Central - we have (inaudible) for Grenfell - but again, trying to build the student population for Memorial.

MR PRESS: Just to get back to your initial plan, of the graduates, in the (inaudible) survey that we have, 53 per cent went on to Memorial and 8 per cent went on to universities elsewhere. Another 20 per cent went to the public college and 17 per cent went to the private colleges.

That number leaving the Province is going up very marginally but the number also going to university is going up at a more significant rate. Both of those indicators, I think, are real positive indicators of how far we have come in the last decade or two. I would think if we were here ten years ago the issue we would have talked about would have been dropouts. It is an issue which we have come to terms with as a province, significantly greater in the last decade or so. Now we talk about other issues in terms of accessibility, the breadth and depth of program delivery, and some of these other things.

One of the real outcomes, a great indicator, has been the numbers who are going on to post-secondary, who realize that high school completion is only a milestone of many that you must move onto and keep going to, either on-the-job training or other college and university training.

MS FOOTE: In fact, follow-up studies from the grade XII level show that 80 per cent of graduates now enrol in some form of post-secondary education with nearly two-thirds enrolling in university. So we have come a long way.

MS DELANEY: Can I answer the question on the libraries board (inaudible)?

There was an extra pay period in 1998-1999, plus the salary increases were retroactive to January 1, 1998. Therefore, there was retro salary included in there for 1998-1999 plus an extra pay period. That is how come it would come down in 1999-2000.

WITNESS: It is not the resources, it is the extra pay.

MS DELANEY: Right. It is the extra pay period and the retro. I remember it from my former position.

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Florence.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That would come under Grants and Subsidies?

MS DELANEY: Yes, it would. Most of that money is for Salaries, in fact, for staff (inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: The pay increase last year would be offset by the pay increase this year because it has gone up 2 per cent for this year.

MS DELANEY: No. The pay increase last year - the amount we had to fund funded agencies - was about 3 per cent and some odd, because they went retroactive to January 1, 1998. It was not paid out until sometime in the latter part of 1998-1999. So the actual cost of salary increases in fiscal 1998-1999 for the government funded agencies was something over 3 per cent and some odd because it went retroactive to January 1, and there is an extra pay period. I remember it because of my former position.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions?

MR. PARSONS: I just wanted to make one comment of the issue of kids leaving the Province. St. James Regional High in Port aux Basques (inaudible) personal knowledge. I would say that not only are you losing a lot of kids from Western Newfoundland to the mainland for geographical reasons or whatever, but you are losing the best kids, the brightest kids. I would say 80 per cent of your honour students from that school have gone to the mainland. I don't think it has to do with just geography. I think it has to do with scholarships and things that are being offered as well.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is another issue. Which is why we introduced the $4 million bridging program as well, as a government, to try and take up that slack there, trying to make sure we offer as much in the way of scholarships as we can.

MR. PARSONS: It is a real brain drain.

WITNESS: You know, 85 per cent of the people who are leaving are under the age of 35.

CHAIR: Any further questions?

There being no further questions, I shall ask the Clerk to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02, carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Very well. Before calling for a motion to adjourn, I would just remind Committee Members that we meet again tomorrow morning at 9:00 to go over the Department of Health and Community Services in the same room, I believe, Elizabeth.

Minister, thank you very much for being here this evening, and for putting up with all of the questions from the members to my right. You notice that the members to my left were a little more gentle.

MS FOOTE: I have not passed my flu bug along, I hope. (Inaudible) my colleague tomorrow. She is home with it today.

CHAIR: I thank you very much for being here. Yes, on that point, the Minister of Health is at home today. We hope and expect her to be here at 9:00 in the morning. As far we know, right now she will. However, time will tell.

The Committee adjourned.