The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Sweeney): Order, please!

On motion of Mr. Hedderson, seconded by Mr. Smith, Ms Osborne was elected Vice-Chair.

CHAIR: I guess we are twenty-two minutes past our deadline starting so we will get along as expeditiously as we can. The records show 7:00 p.m. All in agreement? Good. Shall we set a time to adjourn?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Let's look at 8:30 p.m. and check ourselves after that.

I guess the first thing we should do is this. Minister, if you would like to introduce your officials, and then once we get our component back we will have the Committee introduce themselves.

MS FOOTE: Good evening, I am Judy Foote, Minister of Education. It is a pleasure to be here at the Estimates Committee. Joining me this evening are, to my immediate left, Florence Delaney, who is the Deputy Minister in the department; sitting next to Florence is David Lewis, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Support Services; and next to David is Dr. Harold Press, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for the K-XII system.

Thank you for the privilege of being here to answer your questions tonight with respect to what is happening in the Department of Education. We have come through a challenging time, as most of you would be aware, with education reform. I think as we go through the Estimates you will see a reflection of that, certainly when you look at where we have come from, having started off with twenty-seven school boards and now down to ten plus one, if you consider the Francophone School Board. We have seen our enrolment peak at a point in time in 1971-1972 at 163,000, in 1995-1996 it was 110,000 and next year we are looking at 90,000 students in our system. As you can see, there are some challenges posed for us in dealing with a dramatic decline in student enrollment. If we look at ten years' out we are looking at about 60,000 students in our school system.

There are a number of issues raised with that that we all have to think about in terms of the number of school boards we have in the Province, whether or not we should be trying to exist with that many school boards, bearing in mind, again, the issue we have with respect to geographic location in the Province and how best to respond there in terms of further consolidation. As you know, the boards have the autonomy when it comes to the organization of the schools within their districts. We have given them that responsibility and they are doing a good job with that.

There are some questions, but you know when we talk about change in the system there are always bound to be questions. Change is never easy. We are seeing the results of some of that with some of the protests that are happening now, particularly down in St. Alban's and Milltown, the issue there, and we are looking at the Avalon West School Board as well, and of course with the Avalon East School Board there have been some issues there.

I think by and large it has been handled very well. The boards have done yeoman's service to this in terms of education reform, in trying to ensure that we have an efficient system and a quality system where we are offering a first-class education to our students. The government has done a fair bit since the reform. Approximately $8 million in savings were achieved in administration when we went from twenty-seven school boards down to eleven school boards. We have been reinvesting the money back into the school system. In fact, we put back $125 million when we looked at building some new schools and a lot of renovations that were required, and redevelopments and repairs throughout the system.

We have taken the money that has been saved as a result of the consolidation and the savings in administration and put it back into the system. We have also ensured that savings from school closures return to the board for three years. No school board grant has seen any reductions as a result of enrolment declines or fewer buildings.

I think if you look at what we have done with the money that has accrued to government as a result of reform, that, in fact, we have put it back into the system. There are still some questions out there to be answered. We have, as you know, the Ministerial Panel which will be reporting back to us by the end of March. We know that they will in fact be reporting on time. The additional month that it took was as a result of certain extensive consultations and a lot of people wanting to have an input into the consultation process. They will be coming in with their report. We have had some preliminary recommendations from them with respect to budgetary implications. Apart from that, I expect there will be a number of significant recommendations along the lines of the requested history course and whether or not that should be high school versus junior high. A number of questions have to be addressed in terms of the allocations of the teachers, recognizing that they have recommended - I guess we will be putting back more than 300 teachers into the system when we really could have removed over 400 teachers.

I think by and large it will be a good report, one that when we have a chance to go through it we will be releasing it publicly. It will be dealt with by Cabinet and then it will become a public report. We will have to look at what recommendations we can enforce for this coming September versus things that we will have to take under consideration.

By and large the school system is evolving as it should. A lot of work and money has gone into it, and certainly there has been a lot of challenges there, but challenges that we look forward to.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

We are still short one Committee member, but I would ask right now, for the record, each Committee member to introduce themselves, beginning with Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, Labrador West.

MR. SMITH: Gerald Smith, Port au Port.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. WALSH: Jim Walsh, Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

CHAIR: Somewhere in the building is Sheila Osborne.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

Before we proceed and start our debate, I would ask each person as they speak to identify themselves for the matter of recording. Just identify who you are before you start speaking.

Elizabeth, shall we call the first head?

CLERK: 1.l.01.

CHAIR: 1.1.01.

We start with the budget on the department and go through the subheads. We will go to the first one.

WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, we are ready for the vote.

CHAIR: You are ready for the vote? I do not think, hey, Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, (inaudible).

CHAIR: Under 1.1.01, do you have any discussion?

WITNESS: No, that is okay for me.

CHAIR: All the discussion is carried under that subhead. The floor is open for questions.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, this is just a suggestion. It might be better that if anybody who wants to just move around, let them just go through it item by item. Take ten minutes each around and (inaudible).

CHAIR: Call their subheads at the end for total. Okay. Who is first? Tom, do you have some questions?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Under General Administration 1.2.02, Administrative Support, was there a position added there, minister?

MS FOOTE: In .01, Salaries, there?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: Actually there was a time lag in filling some vacant positions. That is why you see the difference in the 1999-2000 budget versus revised - for example, the Manager of Financial Operations and Systems Analysis - so that is the difference there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Information Technology, that increased as well. With the Information Technology, is that equipment or services - the purchase of new equipment or services?

MS FOOTE: Additional systems and development for the testings and evaluation unit, and for student support services, so it is more computerization of existing systems.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 1.2.03., Assistance To Educational Agencies And Advisory Committees, under 10., Grants and Subsidies, what is the breakdown of that? What is included under that particular section?

MS FOOTE: There are a variety of different organizations that receive support. We have a whole listing: the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institute; the Council of Ministers of Education. That is an annual amount that is paid; that is our contribution to that Council, which is $34,500. We have the Canadian Education Association, and that would be $25,800; the Federation of School Councils, $30,000; the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association, Industrial Relations Officer, one position, $59,600, and that is a position that resides over with the NLSBA; provincial membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, and that is $143,900; the Brother TI Murphy Centre, $276,000; the Nurses Studies Program, which is the Nurse Practitioner Program that we support, $267,300, and the Children's Food Foundation, which was $500,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: There was a jump in what was allotted, and it was revised and is maintained. Was that a -

MS FOOTE: Remember we announced an additional million dollars? That is what that was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

CHAIR: Gerry.

MR. SMITH: Not at this time.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. WALSH: Not at this time.

CHAIR: Tom, back to you again.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Youth Services, 1.2.04., Tutoring for Tuition Program, the $295,000 there, is that what that is, that there is still some outstanding money that needs to be paid?

MS FOOTE: That is the lag time between when we would issue the vouchers and when they would be redeemed by the students.

We had budgeted $495,000; they took up $295,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: So, there is still outstanding (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 1.2.05., Corporate Planning and Research, the research itself, and the evaluation, is that in the field or internal?

DR. PRESS: That is both, actually. There are a number of ongoing research activities on the go now, particularly a teacher supply and demand study that was announced earlier. We have an educational staff record which looks at teachers, the age, what they teach and so on. It gives us some good information about who is in a field, what they are doing, and what they are teaching and so on. There is also the high school graduation follow-up survey which we do, and some other small things that take place.

MR. HEDDERSON: With regard to the teaching force, there are some concerns being expressed about - I know, for example, there is a bubble in chemistry, math, and that sort of thing, that started teaching in the early 1970s, that will soon be on their way out. Is that part of the research, to identify what type of teachers we are going to be looking for in five years time?

DR. PRESS: Absolutely. There is always the challenge in education, the balance between the kind of demands that are out in the field and what qualifications and so on they would require and what the supply is producing at the university. That is a challenge to do that. There are always problems in certain areas such as math and science, in all areas. There are also problems in certain regions of the Province in attracting people to go to small, rural communities versus urban centres and so on.

Yes, we actually have two studies underway now to provide us good, current, up-to-date information on two things: One is on the demand side, where the jobs are, where the jobs are likely to be, and what areas they are likely to be in. On the other side, it is in terms of what the supply is producing, where the students are going, what they are trained in and what they are likely to produce at the university over the next three to five years.

MR. HEDDERSON: You are doing this in conjunction with MUN.

DR. PRESS: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: What about substitute teachers?

DR. PRESS: I am sorry?

MR. HEDDERSON: The substitute teachers themselves, are you surveying them as well?

DR. PRESS: Yes, absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: So they are all included; it is not only the teachers who are in the system.

DR. PRESS: No, it is actually the total supply which incorporates those who are teaching, those who have teaching certificates and are not teaching, and those who have teaching certificates and might be teaching part-time as part of the substitute group.

MS FOOTE: I think one of the issues there, too, that we are looking at is this whole issue around multi-level and multi-age teaching, and whether or not our teachers are actually prepared to teach in that environment. That is part of the discussion that is taking place with Memorial.

MR. HEDDERSON: Do you want to take care of that section now?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Do them all the one time? Okay, here comes my compadre.

Under Financial Assistance, the first section there, 2.1.01,, Teaching Services, the 108 positions that are going to be let go, is there any indication which type of positions or is it just from the general allocation? Is it going to be classroom teachers, special ed teachers, guidance, or is it just right across the board?

MS FOOTE: Well, we will wait on the ministerial panel for that. What we asked them for was to give us some indication, in terms of numbers, for budgetary implications. It will not be 108 teachers going; because, if you read the press release that we put out, actually it will be probably eighty or less. We are retaining more than 300 in the system. In discussions with the panel what we asked for was in fact some indication of the number, but we will wait for their report to tell us how that will pan out across the system.

MR. HEDDERSON: Of course my curiosity is, of those teachers - I know, for example, remedial teachers, reading teachers, are a must. Has there been some consideration given for particular types of teachers to be kept out of those 108?

MS FOOTE: That was part of the discussion that the panel had in the consultation process, and I expect they will be making some recommendations in terms of additional resources at the school board level to deal with the issue of reading.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

Distance Education, that is just salaries there, right, and that is pretty well standard across?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: School Board Operations, 2.1.02., with regard to the Grants and Subsidies, Regular Operating Grant and Administration Grant, Minister, could you just tell me the difference between the two of them or what is covered under each?

MS FOOTE: Under the -

MR. HEDDERSON: The Regular Operating Grant - we will start there - what does that cover?

MS FOOTE: That would be all of their regular costs, their school utilities, the lights, maintenance. All of that would fall under Regular Operating Grant.

MR. HEDDERSON: And the Administrative Grant?

MS DELANEY: That covers the directors, the assistant directors and the administrative staff in each of the boards, the total administrative cost for the eleven school boards - or ten school boards, I should say.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

With regard to the Operating Grant, does maintenance come out of that, the maintenance of the schools?

MS DELANEY: Yes, maintenance of school buildings does come out of that amount of money.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

What about something like air quality testing and such, or follow-ups? Does that come out of that as well?

MS DELANEY: Yes, it would come out of the maintenance grant. Sometimes, if the costs are substantial, we may fund it out of the capital account.

MS FOOTE: For instance, we have spent $10 million on air quality problems in the schools.

MR. HEDDERSON: In 1998?

MS FOOTE: That is right, and we have also now put in our maintenance budget, $4 million for the next - there will be $12 million in the next three years, and that will deal with issues of air quality as well as repairing roofs and windows and general maintenance.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is included in the operating -?

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: The one thing that I was very curious about was the repairs, because I know that in years gone by it came out of the capital - like leaky roofs and that sort of thing - so now it is coming out of the Operating Grants?

MS DELANEY: The minor repairs would come out of the operating grants. The boards get about fifty-five cents - it varies, but fifty-five cents on average - per square foot for what we call regular maintenance. For a leaky roof, if it was a major job, that would come out of the capital and it would come out of the new $4 million that we have provided for that purpose.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

Under Student Assistants, there is an increase there. What is that going to transfer into with regard to hours? Is the student assistant going to go under review with regard to moving the student assistants to the students, or remain assigned to the schools?

MS FOOTE: What that reflects there would be the cost of recent reclassifications. The student assistants have recently been reclassified.

MR. HEDDERSON: So it doesn't cover additional hours, minister?

MS FOOTE: No, but you will see the increase there in terms of the budget and the revised that was, again, responding to the demand.

MR. HEDDERSON: The three-year deal that you offer, is that reflected here as well? It is reflected, the three-year deal that you have given the severely disabled, that they wouldn't be attached, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: The decision on that, is it done now as we speak or it is going to come up for review in the spring? Where does it go from there?

DR. PRESS: We have a system in place now where this will roll out in September 2000. The districts have already provided profiles in January and February. The profiles are completed by schools and revised in February. The district consultations with our divisional staff will go on through March, and most of that is already completed now. The division allocations will go out in early May, we hope, with the deadline around May 5. The districts will notify schools which students meet the criteria for support around May 19 and then the parents will be notified by districts in early June, probably the first week of June.

MS FOOTE: By the way, our student assistant budget is up 21 per cent over the past three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is what I was asking, I was hoping that it would transfer into hours because there still seems to be an awful crunch out there. There are not big differences, a child needing an extra half hour or an hour or one and one-half hours.

MS FOOTE: I guess it depends on how you look at student assistants and what the intent of the program was. Certainly the intent was to have children become more independent instead of dependent. I am afraid what is happening with the system is that children are becoming much more independent and I think that is something we have to revisit.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is true in some cases, minister, but obviously, by putting a student assistant with the severely disabled for three years, it is an indication that the need is there for full-time.

MS FOOTE: Yes, absolutely. That was the intent of the program initially. If you were severely physically disabled or severely mentally challenged that was why the program was put in place, but we are finding today that they are looking for student assistants if they have behavior problems. We have seen an enormous increase in the request in that particular category.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a real need, believe me.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, but we should look at -

MR. HEDDERSON: There are some cases where a student assistant with a child with a behavioral problem can be very productive.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

CHAIR: Do you have any questions?

MR. COLLINS: On 2.1.01, Teaching Services, it says: "The 1999/00 Revised reflects funding for 26 pay periods; 25 pay periods are budgeted in 2000/01." What does that mean, really?

MS FOOTE: That is the number of pay periods in the year.

MR. COLLINS: That is just the way it works out for that year.

MS FOOTE: Yes, there will be one less pay period.

MR. COLLINS: Under 2.1.02.10, School Board Operations, Grants and Subsidies, is there a breakdown on what per cent of that is spent, for example, to the different school boards?

MS FOOTE: It would vary from board to board.

MR. COLLINS: Yes. I am just wondering -

MS FOOTE: They are given the block funding to cover their operating costs. Of course, the various costs of utilities and so on would vary from board to board.

MR. COLLINS: I am thinking in terms of, particularly with the Labrador board, the cost of travel, for example. It must be a huge chunk of their budget.

MS FOOTE: Yes, there is a significant amount of their budget that would go into travel, but that would be reflected in the grant that they would receive as well. Maybe not to the degree that they would like.

MR. COLLINS: I am aware of that.

CHAIR: Sheila, do you have any questions?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I have a couple. On 2.1.02.10, in Regular Operating Grant, there is a difference from what was budgeted, $69,938,600 and what was actually spent, $69,311,000. Was there anything lost there or is that just the way it came in?

MS DELANEY: That is just our projected expenditures for this year. In fact, it will probably be slightly more than that at the end of the day. It will be closer to the $69,900,000 mark.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also, in terms of student assistants, is it now a policy that, for the most part, they will be in place before the close of the school year in June so that parents will know whether they have an assistant or not?

MS DELANEY: That is clearly our intention.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is all for now. I will come back again.

CHAIR: Tom, back to you again.

MR. HEDDERSON: 2.1.04, the Community Access Program or sites, have we covered all areas, minister? Are there any more proposed sites coming on stream for this particular year?

MS FOOTE: We have 119 sites in 108 communities. Fifteen were added in 1999-2000. Let's look at the tab here to see if it identifies it. Tom, I don't know. Do either of you know whether or not there are additional sites that have been identified to be added?

MR. HEDDERSON: I was just wondering. There is more money to be spent this year, Florence? Under Grants and Subsidies, we had $2.6 million and $1.5 million, basically -

MS FOOTE: Yes, in 2000-2001.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just wondered, are all the sites actioned?

MS FOOTE: My notes do not indicate whether or not there are additional sites but I would assume that there would be because the agreement is continuing.

CHAIR: We could probably forward clarification on that at a later date.

MS FOOTE: Sure. We can find out -

CHAIR: Is it okay with you?

MR. HEDDERSON: Sure, yes. I am just curious as to whether or not they were all actioned and -

MS FOOTE: Additional sites, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, are the graphic calculators included under that, minister?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is, it would be, yes. That is the little bubble.

MS FOOTE: That is right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Further with regard to School Supplies, I had some questions from some of my constituents regarding the grade II language and the elementary science, I think, grade IV. With the language arts, in a class of twenty you might have gotten six readers, six readers, six readers. Is there a reason for that? There were no class sets as such.

MS FOOTE: Harold.

DR. PRESS: No, there were basically estimates based upon what is a reasonable level of support for the language arts program in each of the levels, and it is always a challenge balancing those two. The language arts program is very expensive and by the time you get up to high school and so on the language arts program learning resources are in excess of $800,000 or $900,000. We have to judge what is a reasonable level of support to provide students so that they have adequate learning resources to meet the required curriculum outcomes in that area.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Harold, the reason I ask is that they asked me to find out the cost of them. The school council has raised some money and gone ahead and put class sets in the grade II class I know, both in Whitbourne and All Hallows in North River. I just thought it strange that - it was a good program, well laid-out, good objectives and that, and I thought that for the sake of another few books it would have made a difference. Again, it is just -

DR. PRESS: It is a case where, you know, all children are not reading the same materials at the same time, so there is a question of (inaudible) supply class sets so they can share them, so that some students go on at a higher level than other students and so on. That is the challenge, to ensure that they have the kinds of materials there that they can reach the required curriculum outcomes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It was a more difficult transition, I guess, for the parents because as the children moved ahead in the grades that reader became theirs. They shared it with the whole class, and I guess the parents were a little bit disappointed that that was not happening, but I guess the program itself takes care of -

DR. PRESS: These are not textbooks. These are readers that you will read one time and then go on to another reader at another time. We believe that the children don't need a reader for themselves to keep for eternity, that you keep it, read it, you achieve the learning outcomes you require with that, and then you move on to another one and pass that along to another child.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other one was the Grade IV science, I believe. Some of the teachers were talking about - again, it is a good program but the resources simply were not there.

I had one teacher talking about going out and getting night crawlers off her front lawn to bring in to do an experiment, and bringing in recipes, things from homes, and so on and so forth. The common complaint was that it was a great program but the materials simply were not there that they could easily go through. They had to go out, or go around the school, and get the things. Do you have any comment on that, Harold?

DR. PRESS: What you described, I think, is a great scenario. Going out in the garden, getting night crawlers and making it adaptable to science curriculum, I think, is fabulous. Whether or not they have the level of (inaudible) in the science program certainly is a challenge. What we encourage is for people to use the science of the surrounding environment. What you are describing actually is some good teaching.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, the graphic calculators, it has been a struggle in the schools to have those. Obviously the graphic calculators now are put into the schools because they are a necessary resource for the math course that has been developed for - is it the one that was developed for September past or the one coming up?

DR. PRESS: Currently.

MR. HEDDERSON: The current one that is right now.

DR. PRESS: And all future.

MR. HEDDERSON: I might add that we have had a struggle in the schools, in most case, just to provide the instructor with the graphic calculator. To see it put throughout the schools is certainly a step forward, there is no doubt.

MS FOOTE: Actually, it is a credit to one of the teachers who e-mailed me, Dennis Ivany, to ask if we would consider doing this because the cost was something like $125 per calculator. What we will do is have a set in the class for the teacher, as well as one for every two students.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is going to be allotted out to the schools or to the boards? I know a principal who unfortunately, two weeks before your announcement - or fortunately - went out and bought a class set. He held on to the bill, he said.

MS FOOTE: We will go to tender.

MR. HEDDERSON: So you are going to provide them. It is just going to be a supply that goes out.

MS FOOTE: We may have to do it through the boards, because obviously they deal with all the schools, apart from the department mailing it out to the schools.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is this going to be available for every child or just for the class set?

MS FOOTE: There will be a set for every two children.

DR. PRESS: These will be essentially school sets. It will be up to the school to monitor them, to ensure there is no loss and so on, and to arrange for this in supplementary courses they do. If I might point out, it is not just the calculator. It also includes overhead projectors by which you can use the calculator and actually put it up on the white board behind you and actually do demonstrations for children and so on, which is critical to this whole process.

MS FOOTE: The cost is such is that we have to try to ensure they are returned to the school when the children are finished with them.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is going to be the problem, because all the break-ins that I ever had, guess what was the first thing that went? The graphic calculators.

MS FOOTE: We have checked with the other provinces who in fact have been providing these, and they found the loss to be very minimal.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, if it is in the hands of the school it should be quite alright.

Does anybody else want to pitch in? Sheila?

MS S. OSBORNE: On page 183, under Language Programs, 2.2.02., all costs are recovered from the federal government. The $406,100, that is not going to be recoverable, is it?

MS FOOTE: Where are you, Sheila?

MS S. OSBORNE: Page 183, under 2.2.02., on the very last line there. It looks like the federal government - the anticipated revenue is $2,001,500 and it looks like there is going to be an expenditure from the Province of $406,100.

MS DELANEY: No, at the end of the day there will not be a net expenditure to the Province. That is more the timing of when we get the cash from the federal government. We will get the $400,000, but probably the following fiscal year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

CHAIR: Mr. Hedderson.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.1.08., Capital, there are blanks there. Again, I know there is money allotted.

MS FOOTE: I am sorry. Where are you?

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 2.1.08., Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The $125 million sticks out in my mind. Is that covered somewhere else?

MS FOOTE: The money would flow through the EIC and this would be the installment, $5,550,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is this year's?

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS DELANEY: If I may, government has already put $50 million of the $125 million into the EIC. The remaining $75 million, in fact, will actually be borrowed money and provided to the EIC depending on the cash flows. This is an additional $5.5 million over and above the $125 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Has that money already been earmarked, Minister, or is there a possibility of new schools yet to come out of that? That is all earmarked, is it?

MS FOOTE: All of the $125 million has been earmarked.

MR. HEDDERSON: In whatever.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 2.2.01., Curriculum Development. In the high school, I know three years ago the reorganized high school was put together. As a matter of fact my child was under those regulations but a lot of the courses never materialized. Are there any pilots coming up this year? What I am asking, Harold, or Minister, is: What is planned?

DR. PRESS: For implementation this year we have Grade I mathematics. We did kindergarten last year. We are doing Grade I this year, and we will do Grade II next year. We doing Grades III, VI, and Grade IX of language arts, which are fairly expensive to do because there is a lot of original materials that have to be a part of that. Once we finish that, then we will have the complete language arts - brand new - right across Grades K-IX. We will also begin the development phase of language arts 1201 and 1202, which is the first new language/literature programs in high school. We will implement that fully beginning next year.

There were also a number of Francophone, French first language, courses that will be implemented again this year.

Certainly one of the challenges for us has been implementing curriculum. Our priorities have been - from the minister's point of view - language, arts and mathematics. Let's get that through and focus on the APEF language and mathematics basic skills, get that in place before we move on to the other kinds of courses that we have.

MR. HEDDERSON: As I said, Minister, under curriculum, it is something that is near and dear to me because I feel that the curriculum is not moving ahead. I believe that you have it developed but I am kind of disappointed that in this area there are not more funds. It is not that I am looking for more money or anything but I would like to see the curriculum jump a little bit quicker.

DR. PRESS: Well, there is an additional $1 million which allowed us to do Grade IX language arts, which accounted for a fair bit of that, and allowed us to do mathematics for this year and allowed us to do another number of other smaller courses. In fact, the implementation has moved a lot more aggressively this year than it has in the last three to four years.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am certainly glad to hear it. The social studies -

DR. PRESS: Update?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

DR. PRESS: We are embarking on the development of social studies through APEF but we recognize that we do not want to do - APEF is moved in K through IX and we are very concerned that we don't develop very rapidly K through IX and have to deal with implementing that all in one swoop. I don't think that the schools could deal with that level of implementation. We are moving fully with K through III in social studies, which should be ready in about a year and a half. Then we are partnering with them - not fully implementing - the elementary and intermediate, so if we are in a position to implement the other areas at that time then we can move forward with that.

We should have the complete social studies - primary, elementary and intermediate - in a good position to implement in the next three to four years.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues we have is an $8 million price tag in terms of curriculum development by trying to implement it. I think that is something you will see addressed by the Ministerial Panel as well in terms of the time frame for implementation. Instead of developing additional new curricula, to in fact work at implementing what we have developed already.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know there has been a fair number of pilots.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: There was a lot of talk in the mid-1990s into where we are right now with semesterization, scheduling and very novel approaches to implementing curriculum, but like I said, I just feel that there has been a stalling that hopefully we can get beyond and move forward with.

MS FOOTE: That is why we put in an additional $1 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Which is very good to see.

At the high school level again, I heard in your opening statement minister about the introduction of the Newfoundland history course into the intermediate or into the high school. When would you know that, or how are you going to go about it?

MS FOOTE: That has been part of the discussion that the Ministerial Panel has had as they talked about curriculum in the school system and they will, I expect, come in with a recommendation on where it should rest. We will wait until we get the report to find out whether or not they are going to recommend that it is junior high versus high, and if there will be any other recommendation in conjunction with that with respect to an aggressive program in the high school.

The objective is obviously to ensure that our students have a better understanding of their history, and to do that you would almost think that you would need to have a compulsory course. As you know, if it is high school it is not compulsory, so I guess they will weigh the options based on what they have heard in their consultations.

MR. HEDDERSON: Newfoundland culture was a compulsory course at one time, so I guess you could put that kind of a handle on it, but naturally in the intermediate it would be compulsory just by the fact that it is part of the curriculum.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I am encouraged. I wish it was tomorrow but I guess we have to wait. I think you are looking at it over two years and the money is there for it?

MS FOOTE: It would take that long by the time you developed a text.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other thing about curriculum development, I guess, is it is all right to develop it, but there is the implementation. I think I picked up in the budget that there is an increase in professional development. Is that curriculum directed?

MS DELANEY: Definitely.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely. We have an additional $900,000 there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Because again the question is it is no good to put new curriculum in if the teachers certainly have not been in-serviced, and that has been a challenge, there is no doubt about that.

MS FOOTE: That is right. We recognize that and we have heard that.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other thing about curriculum is that I am reading a lot about the spelling programs. Excuse me, I don't mean to bring up spelling again or pronunciation or phonics.

MS FOOTE: Is that goose or Gosse?

MR. HEDDERSON: I know there are lots of programs out there and I understand that you are probably under a bit of pressure to pick this one or that one or whatever. Have you considered anything with regard - because reading especially with remedial kids is an area that needs to be addressed - to developing your own program in reading or taking on a program or anything of that nature?

MS FOOTE: You have hit on something very near and dear to me in terms of the literacy level in our Province. I get really concerned when I hear of children in school and graduating who cannot read. One of the things we are focusing on certainly is to ensure that our teachers get more in the way of professional development in terms of knowing how to teach reading, and teachers will readily acknowledge that that is a difficult area for them. That again goes back to Memorial and the training they get when they are going through the Faculty of Education. We have had discussions with Memorial on that.

One of the issues we are faced with, of course, is that there are always these wonderful reading programs, whether it is Bridges, Reading Recovery or Spell Read Canada, and different boards have opted to introduce different programs. I brought this up at a meeting with my Atlantic counterparts because I saw it as an issue not just for Newfoundland and Labrador but for the Atlantic Provinces and for the country as a whole. I am pleased to say that, certainly in the Atlantic Provinces, we have undertaken to now look at all of these different programs that are offered in the schools, to look at what our other Atlantic Provinces are doing, and see if we cannot come up with some kind of consistent approach to dealing with a problem of reading, whether or not it is to identify a particular program that is offered or to find the best out of the lot. It is part of an ongoing research project we have asked and undertaken. As far as I know, Harold, that is under way?

DR. PRESS: Yes. We have hired a researcher now, Suzanne Ziegler, and that study is underway and should be completed by this fall. In fact, that is a concern of all four Atlantic Provinces and so on, because you see these different emphasis, Reading Recovery, First Steps, Bridges and so on. The question is what works, what does not work - maybe they all do - and if they all work in some way, trying to define what it is they are doing right, and trying to sort of bridge that, add value to that and integrate it in some way into the school activities.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know that MUN had a successful reading institute, I guess, at one time. Has there been any consideration given to support MUN in research? Because I used to refer children to MUN at one time. They would go in and register for Saturdays or something. It was a good program and a good place to help children who were reading. The research is going to be done, but is MUN going to be dragged into it as well so that they are able to be part of it?

DR. PRESS: Yes, all the universities are surveyed and are part of this particular research. Many universities are doing some of their own research on top of that. MUN is involved in a number of different projects and so on through its professors who are involved in teaching reading and so on. Also a big part of this - one that has been recognized in this budget - has been the professional development of teachers in this, and be able to provide them with the skills and abilities to be able to teach reading and so on. The significant focus of that professional development will be on reading, and focusing specifically on primary to have the biggest impact you can on the one part where you can really significantly make a difference on reading; and that is in primary, prior to age eight.

MS FOOTE: In conjunction with that Tom, if I may, of course there is the whole strategic literacy plan that we are working on as well and recognizing that we really need to get to children even before they start school. If you listen to what Dr. Fraser Mustard says, between the ages of three and five is when children have the greatest ability to absorb. The objective being that every child should know how to read before they graduate from grade III. That is not the case today, and I think that is certainly a focus for us, and that is where we are focusing our attention.

MR. HEDDERSON: Reading recovery in the intermediate grades, in the high school grades, is very difficult, as you pointed out.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The professional development obviously is the key, and I would much prefer to see our teachers with a lot of different strategies rather than being tied into a phonics program or whatever the case is.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: As a matter of fact, I am quite wary of these cure-all programs.

MS FOOTE: Yes, because of course it takes a certain controlled environment for them to be successful and that is not always the case.

CHAIR: Randy, do you have any -

MR. COLLINS: No, I am just (inaudible).

CHAIR: Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: I just want to ask a general question. Can a policy be implemented whereby Memorial University could furnish to high school principals the results of how the students from that high school did, which would enable the principal and the high school teachers to know the success or failure of certain programs that they have in the high school?

MS FOOTE: Do you mean students that go on into the faculty?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, students that go on to MUN. I have heard some principals talk about that and they say: We do certain programs and we are not really sure how successful they are in the big picture, once the high school students go on to MUN. They have said to me that they would like to get feedback. I don't know if policy could be implement at the provincial level or if there could be suggestions made or whatever, but I think it would be very useful for high school teachers and the principal to know the success rate of programs they had in the school: for instance, a math program or a language arts program or whatever.

MS FOOTE: It is probably pretty obvious in some instances, certainly in terms of the math program, that we are facing some difficult problems there. The principals would certainly be aware that there is an issue there. I think, Sheila, there are a lot of things around this that we have to look at, and certainly one is whether or not we go back to public exams again. That would give any principal an indication of how well the students have done in terms of their acceptance into Memorial. That is part of the problem we are facing now, that without that assessment process -

MS S. OSBORNE: There is no barometer. There is nothing to measure and they don't all necessarily go in on a level playing field. Even in St. John's some high schools - and we hear it on open line every day now with each of the high schools lobbying to get the students and stuff that some of them - obviously the programs are more successful, or they figure that they are more successful than others. It would be nice if there was a continuum to know, or we could go back to public exams and then everybody would be alike going in.

MS FOOTE: Of course, the other thing is whether or not there is actually a core program being offered, a consistent program, throughout the Province that will offer the same - students would have some idea when they are taking the program that then you could compare how well they do, do a school by school comparison in terms of how well the students do.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes. It would be nice, I think, to have them on a level playing field going in.

MS FOOTE: I think it is important for us to be able to offer that core, that balanced program, no matter where you live in the Province.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, and it would probably cut out the competition in high schools. We could close one then without them saying mine is better than yours, that type of thing.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS S. OSBORNE: We could rule out that particular argument as to what one offers and what one -

MS FOOTE: No, there is an issue there.

DR. PRESS: We don't have a policy per se but there is a lot of information communicated from the university back to high schools. In fact, the university will often provide information back to boards on a high school basis, and supply that information about how the students did generally.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

DR. PRESS: So they get pass rates -

MS S. OSBORNE: From a certain high school and so on?

DR. PRESS: Oh yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: The breakdown, yes.

DR. PRESS: Yes. I don't know if that information is supplied universally so I hesitate to answer from that point of view, but a lot of information is supplied back. Some boards request how their graduates did on a school by school basis so that the information is supplied then back to the schools as part of an accountability those boards have. I think that really works. I think the answer lies in what the minister talked about, in eventually moving toward some kind of provincial examination.

MS S. OSBORNE: Universal.

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. I was, actually, at a school council seminar and I heard some of the principals there talk about when once they offer certain courses or certain programs in the school they are not sure how successful they actually have been because they don't get the feedback. I suppose maybe they haven't requested it from the right places. I don't know.

DR. PRESS: I think some of these have been from the initiative of particular school boards which have requested it, on behalf of all their schools, and supplied it to the schools. I think some schools probably may not even wish it if they had it.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is right.

DR. PRESS: Nevertheless, that information is very good. Plus, they also do the skills inventory now which supplies good information about how the schools did in mathematics when they got there. This is for academic students only, but that provides good information back to schools as well.

MS S. OSBORNE: It would be a barometer of what to do. There is not much point of doing it if it isn't working, and we are exhilarated if it is, you know.

MS FOOTE: That is why we are looking at school level reporting, so we could report back to the schools how well the students have done. In fact, then they could look at how well other schools have done and they could do some comparison to see where their shortcomings are and where their strengths are.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also an argument when they are closing the school.

MS FOOTE: It will show their strengths and their weaknesses. I think if you look at the number of programs that are offered, we have an awful lot of local programs that are offered and I think what we have done - the department is at fault here to some extent too - is that we have been approving so many programs that at the end of the day, whether or not you are getting that core academic program and then a variety of other courses, but it tends to be that - and you know if you get students at Level III they will tend to take what are called the easy courses. I think we have a job to do there to try and ensure that when they are coming out of high school they are coming out well equipped to deal with the university environment.

One of the issues that I know the panel heard in the consultation process was that there are so many courses offered and the variety is such that students are able to take that third year and it is a pretty soft year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I think that has to be dealt with.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also human nature when you are there.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: I think we may be wandering off from our Estimates a little tiny bit so -

MS FOOTE: However, it is good.

CHAIR: - we will get back on to this. The conservation was great.

WITNESS: I thought we were moving them all together.

CHAIR: That is what he was attempting.

MS FOOTE: He just moved them all together on you, Tom.

WITNESS: I thought you were finished. I am sorry. I apologize.

MS FOOTE: We were having a discussion.

CHAIR: We got sidetracked there a little tiny bit.

Nice try, Mr. Walsh.

Okay, who is next? Tom? Randy?

MR. COLLINS: Under 2.2.02., in the French Immersion Programs, I know in Labrador West we had early and the late immersion. Do you have early and late immersion programs on the Island?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: Have there been any studies done to show if there is a difference between students who enrolled in the early immersion versus the late immersion, and what the success rates are at the competition of the immersion programs?

MS FOOTE: Randy, that has been a matter of debate. If you had followed the debate with the Avalon East School Board, and whether or not they should be offering early French Immersion versus late, I am not sure if there are any studies that would show that there is any comparable difference in terms of the programming itself and the final outcomes. Do you want to speak to that, Harold?

DR. PRESS: Certainly the earlier you start, as with the English language arts or whether you are talking about the French programs, the student will learn much quicker. The question is, will they would catch up? If you start late immersion, certainly you can be fairly articulate in French language if you start late and go through that program, as long as you have opportunities to keep it up and keep current with your conversational French and so on.

While, if you start early, you will likely have a greater achievement at an earlier age, there is no reason why the late immersion program cannot work equally as well.

MR. COLLINS: I just mentioned that because my daughter did the late immersion program. Where it has been in Labrador West for quite some time now, one of the comments that I have heard quite often is that students who entered the early immersion program really did not have a good grasp of the English language.

DR. PRESS: Right.

MS FOOTE: That is part of the debate.

MR. COLLINS: Whereas students who entered the last immersion sort of had, for the most part, the English language conquered before they entered into a second language type thing.

MS FOOTE: It is part of the debate. My own daughter did early French Immersion, and I think her grasp of the English language is fine. Again, it is a matter of debate. It depends on the student, I think, like in anything else.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

CHAIR: Gerald, do you have any questions?

MR. REID: Not at this point. When we are ready to (inaudible), I would like to have a comment before we close.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Sheila? Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.03., Distance Education, is there any development of sites coming up, or any need for additional sites?

DR. PRESS: Not this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: What about the courses that are offered, Harold? Are there any changes since last year, or just the basic?

DR. PRESS: No, not this year. What we have been doing is looking at the Distance Education program generally to get some sense over the kind of model that we are using, which is a synchronous model. What that means is a real-time model. In other words, you have a teacher there who has to be there and therefore your scheduling for the schools, particularly small schools, has been a real problem for that.

What our challenge has been is to look at what other kinds of models might exist. As the technology grows and Web-based technologies come in the forefront and communication technologies become quicker, become better for us, then we could look at new models. Our challenge in future will be to look at how we expand this and use different types of technologies and use different models in order to deliver a wider spectrum of courses to a larger number of children.

MS FOOTE: It cannot be the avenue of last resort. If we are going to offer it, it has to be in a good environment, instead of children stuck behind the school stage somewhere in a room that is not ventilated. It has to be something that is attractive to the student and the teacher as well, who will be able to supervise.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Evaluation and Scholarships, this student evaluation here is just certification, is it? This is not testing?

MS FOOTE: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is just a certification on the scholarships.

Student Testing and Evaluation, subhead 2.3.02., the scholarship exam is there and the chemistry, I believe. Were those the only two that -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: They are through the Atlantic?

DR. PRESS: Not the scholarship, just the chemistry.

MR. HEDDERSON: The chemistry, I am sorry.

What is in the works coming up? Is that the only one that has been developed to this point in time?

DR. PRESS: Yes. We are cooperating with the other Atlantic Provinces for up to ten different tests in science, biology, chemistry, geology, earth science, I think it is, two mathematics courses - we are the lead Province in the development of provincial mathematic exams - two language arts courses and two social studies courses. They are in the developmental process and as they unfold it will likely be several years in the works before they are fully developed and in a position for us to implement. The other part of this is that we cannot implement the test until we implement the curriculum.

MR. HEDDERSON: Some of the boards have - I know Avalon West has - common board exams.

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that across the Province? And what kind of support do you give to that?

DR. PRESS: It is not universal, and we provide support as we do in terms of our regular operation and teacher allocations. A lot of them have the flexibility then, within their own organizations and school boards, to design district-wide examinations or testing and so on.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is up to them?

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is no concerted effort, like you said, from the department to coordinate it or anything like that.

DR. PRESS: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: The student information database, where is that at right now? Is that complete? What system has been used? How is it working?

MS FOOTE: The student information database?

MR. HEDDERSON: Does it exist? There is a database, I know, because marks and that are electronically transferred now from school to school.

DR. PRESS: I am sorry.

We have set up a new database this past year. We are hoping to pilot test it over the next month and do some training with principals. This is simply a way to input marks electronically and send them in. We can then turn over the final marks probably two to three weeks earlier than we have in the past. We hope to have this implemented partially this coming year and implemented fully in the following year. Why it won't be implemented fully this year is because not all schools are in a position to send their files electronically and so on. It will require training, but it is well under way. We are very pleased with how this is unfolding for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, like I said, five years ago or so they started. What system is being used now, Harold? Is it the same system that you have built on?

DR. PRESS: Oh, yes. It has been in place now for about four or five years.

MS DELANEY: By the way, we are trying to move in a number of fronts in that particular area to try to reduce the amount of paperwork between the schools, school boards and the department so that we can do more of this electronically, including in the area of special needs as well for the upcoming year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Student Support Services, special needs - you are ahead of me, Florence.

MS FOOTE: She answered the question before you asked.

MR. HEDDERSON: The ISSP inter-agency, of course, is a big database that has been drawn up, I know. Where is that across the Province with regard to the special needs children? There is an inter-agency one that has been developed. Is that Province-wide? I am dealing with Mary Tucker down in Avalon West. She has done a fair bit of work on it. Is that Province-wide?

MS FOOTE: Is that the ISSP?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the interagency one.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is Province-wide.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is Province-wide, right. The database, as I know, most of ours from that area go to Whitbourne. Are there databases through the Province?

MS FOOTE: This is done in conjunction with all of the school boards, so all the school boards would have centres where the information would be collected and stored. That would be done in liaison with the department.

MR. HEDDERSON: The pathways in the schools have been a challenge. Are there any new initiatives this year with regard to any new infusion of funds or any direction you are going to take or professional development?

DR. PRESS: We have done three significant initiatives. One is comprehensive professional development. We have done that throughout the Province. We have also created an advisory committee where it consists of most of the major agencies and groups that are involved in special needs which come together three or four times a year to provide advice, to flesh out ideas, to provide a commentary on the programs: on how well they are working, and where they are not working, and provide guidance in that area and so on. We have also created what we call a problem solving or working committee with the NLTA. We have brought together teachers, program specialists in the field, NLTA representatives, plus our own staff to really look at how this is working, where we can provide additional support in this process and so on, and where we can troubleshoot and so on. That is working quite well as well.

We are actually having our fourth meeting in April, and we have done a number of things, including reducing significantly, I might add, the documentation that is required, making it consistent across boards, developing some parent brochures and so on. I think we have made some significant gains with NLTA's work on this.

CHAIR: It is now 8:30 p.m. Would the Committee like to break for five minutes?

MS S. OSBORNE: I do not think we have too much more.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, it is just the - I have to get a few questions for Dave over there. I can't have you go home without asking you a few questions.

CHAIR: Okay, so you wish (inaudible) few more minutes?

MS FOOTE: He is quite happy without the questions.

WITNESS: Time goes when you are just getting all this information.

MR. COLLINS: He is getting information for Question Period.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I am giving away all my Question Periods.

MS FOOTE: Yes, but you know what I am going to do to you in Question Period.

MR. COLLINS: I am not asking a question in this House for another month.

CHAIR: Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: Under 2.4.03, on page 187, the Newfoundland School for the Deaf, how may teachers are employed at the School for the Deaf?

MS FOOTE: How many teachers?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

DR. PRESS: There are twenty-seven teachers, plus a number of other specialists like an audiologist, a guidance counselor and so on. I think the total is thirty-one.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

DR. PRESS: It has a student population of 103. It is up since last year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Where are they accommodated? The appropriations provide for the accommodation as well. Are they accommodated in private houses throughout, or are they accommodated on site out there?

MS FOOTE: They have a residence on site.

MS S. OSBORNE: They have a residence on site.

MS DELANEY: The funding for the teachers' salaries for the School for the Deaf is back over under 2.1.01, Teaching Services. The amount of money that is under the subhead 2.4.03.01 is actually for the support staff. That does not include the teaching staff.

MS S. OSBORNE: Is that 2.4.03.01?

MS DELANEY: 2.4.03.01 is the support staff for the school.

MS S. OSBORNE: I was not questioning about that because I noticed that there, that the salaries for the facility were reflected under Teaching Services. I just wanted to know for information.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) comment. I know of a couple of parents whose children are attending the school, and I would just like to say that they have nothing but (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, it is a good facility.

CHAIR: Who is next, please? Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: Post-secondary.

MR. COLLINS: Before we get to post-secondary -

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, go ahead.

MR. COLLINS: - on the (inaudible). What is the current demand for students for attending the veterinary school in P.E.I.?

MS FOOTE: I don't know the demand but, in fact, our contribution enables us to see two students enrolled per year, eight in total. It is a four year program. The contribution that we would make would enable us to have eight students over the four year program. I don't know if we get more. Can you answer that, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: In terms of the college, they take sixty students a year. There are forty from Atlantic Canada and twenty international students. In Newfoundland, generally, there are about ten applicants for every student who gets accepted into the program. That number is pretty consistent across all of the provinces, actually. We actually end up, generally, with more than two. We pay for two and two Newfoundland students go from here. A lot of students have residency, Newfoundland students have residency in another Atlantic Province, and they are accepted as a student from that province as opposed to Newfoundland.

MR. COLLINS: So if they are going to -

MR. LEWIS: They may, if they are undergraduate (inaudible) diploma, for example, in New Brunswick, and they would apply from there and be considered a New Brunswick student rather than a Newfoundland student.

MR. COLLINS: How many seats do New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have, do you know?

MR. LEWIS: I can't remember off the top of my head. I believe Nova Scotia is somewhere around sixteen or seventeen. New Brunswick and P.E.I. are somewhat lower than that.

MS S. OSBORNE: (Inaudible) Grants and Subsides figure there that the students who attend would pay their own tuition and costs.

MS FOOTE: That just insures us at least.

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just a couple of questions. The transfer from the Topsail Road campus to the main campus, what is the time frame on that, and are we losing any courses in the transfer?

MS FOOTE: No. In fact that is one of our most successful offerings by CONA and the demand for the graduates out of that program. In fact, I would say close to 100 per cent of the students in all of the programs are employed full-time upon graduation. In fact, I think in some cases you have 30 per cent of them who get employment before they even graduate. It is a very successful program, and the only course offerings in the Province would be through CONA for those particular programs. We are moving on that immediately.

MS DELANEY: It should be ready in September 2001.

MS FOOTE: All the renovations and everything should be ready for September 2001.

MR. HEDDERSON: For September 2001.

MS S. OSBORNE: (Inaudible) campus over here.

MS FOOTE: Yes, Prince Philip, on the Parkway here.

MR. HEDDERSON: One of the other biggest areas is the Student Aid. I would just refer you to 3.4.03. The extra $11 million, what is it for? I was hoping I could get a question for Dave there but I can't hit on one, can I, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: The bulk of that is made up by three categories. Approximately $3.5 million is for interest subsidies. That is paying the interest on loans while students are still in their course of study because they don't start repaying until six months after they have graduated. The interest subsidy is $3.5 million. In loans remission there is an increase of $2.5 million. I am talking in terms of increases now, not the absolute amounts. There is an increase of $2.5 million on loans remissions. Those are for students who have graduated on a timely basis. There is a portion of their loans forgiven, so the increase is $2.5 million. There is another $4 million as an increase in risk premiums.

MS FOOTE: The risk premium, that has to deal with the default rate of the banks. In fact, they have increased their premium from 5 per cent to anywhere from 10 per cent to 12.5 per cent. It is an additional cost for us.

MR. HEDDERSON: The interest relief for the provincial and the federal are different, I believe. Are there talks of...?

MS FOOTE: That was the discussion of course, the harmonization, and we thought that we would have - in fact, we signed a one year deal with CIBC thinking that we would go forward with the harmonization. Then, when the banks pulled out of the Canada Student Loan program, it left us high and dry in terms of the harmonization efforts. I doubt if there will be any harmonization now, but we are moving forward in terms of still trying to get a deal with the bank for the provincial loans portion.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

MS DELANEY: We are doing a review of our student aid program. One of the issues we will look at, as part of that review, would be the differences between the interest relief provisions of the federal program and the provincial program. Despite harmonization, that is something we will look at in our own review.

MR. HEDDERSON: Florence, with the remission too, I have gotten a lot of complaints from students regarding the difficulty - I think, David, you said it right there, the timely - in that review were there any thoughts, do you think, of easing up on the requirements there?

MS FOOTE: Do you know what the requirements are, Tom? Do you know what the requirements are?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, ten semesters is it?

MS FOOTE: They have to complete their program. If it is a four year program, they complete it in the four years, plus a year. Part of the problem we are facing is that you have students out there who tend to be floaters so they will do three courses and they will maybe take five or six years to complete their program, but they have ninety days to apply for the loan remission. If their loan is, what, $22,000?

MS DELANEY: If their loan is about $35,000, their debt would be reduced to something over $22,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know (inaudible).

MS DELANEY: So in essence, if they are eligible for loan remission we, in reality, virtually wipe out the provincial debt. They would only be left with their Canada student loan portion for the most part. If you completed the four-year program in four years you would virtually have no provincial student debt. You would only have your Canada Student Loan debt.

MS FOOTE: Tom, we recognize -

MR. HEDDERSON: That part I like, right?

MR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) reimbursement for parents, (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: There is a problem there and I guess it goes back to, again, the information itself. It is available, it is in their material. They do not read the material. I mean, you know and I know, when you were a student how much did you read of the information that was actually given to you? Then, by the time it is brought to their attention by someone else, they are probably late in applying. We are undertaking to do a much more aggressive campaign in terms of making sure students are aware about the loan remissions program, but all of this is part of our overall review of student aid: the interest relief, the loans harmonization, the student loan portion, all of it is under review. When will we have that review finished?

MS DELANEY: We hope to have the review finished by mid- to late summer. That is our current target.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the target. I would like to see it in Levels II and III, you know, before the students get out of high school. You know what I am saying to you, that you are right, and I agree with the closing part of it.

MS FOOTE: Making the information available.

MR. HEDDERSON: My daughter is coming out of grade XII this year and if I mention loan remission to her I think she would look at me like I had two heads. It is just one of those things where I think information and disbursement of information is most important.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: It would go a long way.

MS DELANEY: One of the things that we do hope to do this summer, even though the review is ongoing, is to get out a number of fact sheets, to get some information out in the paper as well, so that students are aware of the program, because in fairness to students, it is a fairly thick book that they get, that is the guide to the student aid program. As the minister indicated, most students probably do not read that so we need to reinforce some of the messages.

MS FOOTE: We are going to put together a fact sheet anyway and I said I will share it with the Liberal caucus. I will make sure that -

MR. HEDDERSON: I would appreciate it.

MS FOOTE: - your caucus gets it as well so you have all of the facts that you can distribute to your own constituents.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would appreciate it. The last - go ahead, Florence.

MS DELANEY: By the way, the only other point on the loan remission program is that in total we are currently spending $5 million per year for this upcoming year, and that amount will escalate significantly over the next four to five years -

MR. HEDDERSON: As they graduate.

MS DELANEY:- as more students graduate and therefore become eligible for loan remission. So -

WITNESS: Last year (inaudible)?

MS DELANEY: Yes, last year our cost was $3 million for that program. This upcoming year it will $5 million, and it will escalate by -

MR. HEDDERSON: We are catching on.

MS DELANEY:- several millions of dollars in the upcoming years, so it is a fairly generous program.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. The last thing on the post-secondary and one, again, that deals almost with my own constituency - because I have a lot of seasonal iron workers, boiler makers and so on - they are looking for welding Alberta B tickets and those sort of things, and they are running into trouble with lineups. Because in their off season, especially probably from November to February or whatever, they come to me and I have made a call over as a matter of fact. It just something that I would bring up. Where would you go with that? Because it is probably only a three- or four-week course but they go in and they find lineups of probably fifty or a hundred people. Do you do it on -

WITNESS: Or the timing is not right. (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the timing is not right. Is there any thought going into this particular group of people to make sure that in what I call the off season, when they are not on a project or something, is it by demand that you offer the course, and however many sign up, and then see if you have the funds? Or is there any coordinated effort with regard to these groups? It is not only welders, but pipe-fitters or anyone who is looking for different tickets.

MS DELANEY: My understanding is that the college is offering that fairly regularly. In fact, a student is free to go in and write the exam without actually doing the training, so therefore if the individual feels that he or she is capable of doing a certain welding test, for argument's sake, they can go in and actually do the test without doing the actual training. I only found out that myself just recently in fact. So I think that is something that we can deal with the college to make sure that they get the information out, that even though there may be some waiting list for the actual training program itself, students can go in and actually do the test without having to wait.

MS FOOTE: Can they do that at any of the campuses of the college?

MS DELANEY: As long as they are offering the welding program at the individual campus.

MR. COLLINS: I think also the apprenticeship board is pretty involved in that as well.

MS DELANEY: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: I know that for a lot of things that Tom mentioned the timing is critical, because if a course is offered, say from September to November, that is part of the peak season for construction, and then they are off for, say, five months, with not much to do and no opportunities to find a job, then the training should be geared during that period of time for certain occupations to -

MS FOOTE: If I am hearing right, they can go in at anytime.

MR. COLLINS: Yes, but the problem is that is okay for the person who can do the exam without doing the training.

MS DELANEY: What I will undertake to do is to contact the college and make sure they advertise as to when the courses are available, when the testing is available, so that way there if anybody is interested in taking the course and/or taking the test alone, he or she would know when it is available and at what sites.

MS FOOTE: I guess Randy's point is that it is not available in the off season.

MR. COLLINS: Yes, there have been problems in the past, I don't know if there are now.

MS DELANEY: They are doing it now.

MR. COLLINS: I know when I was on the apprenticeship board that was a regular complaint from some occupations.

MS FOOTE: We should make a note of it.

MR. COLLINS: What they were looking at then, I am not sure if they moved in that direction or not, was to be more flexible in the times that the courses are offered. I know you can work as an automotive mechanic, a millwright or a machinist for five years as long as you work the required number of hours and go and write your inter-provincial without ever being in school in your life. A lot of the training that Tom was referring to is sort of specialty training where you probably do not get the opportunity to work at it until you actually get the training. So it is not something you can write without going through the training program itself.

MS DELANEY: My understanding is that in fact some of that training is currently ongoing even right now at Prince Philip Drive. They have a regular schedule of training and they have a regular schedule of testing as well. So it has been on the go all winter.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to get back to my question, Florence, the coordination of it. Obviously you are saying it is coordinated from the colleges -

MS DELANEY: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: - and they would come probably to you for funding or if they had -

MS DELANEY: No, it would be part of their operating grant or in some cases the students may be sponsored under the Labour Market Development Agreement or may be sponsored by an employer, so they do not come to us for the funding.

MR. COLLINS: A lot of times too now I think some of the construction unions have set up their own training programs.

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. COLLINS: That way they can accommodate their own members, at least.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS DELANEY: We will speak to the college with respect to at least getting the information out as to what programs they do have available, when, and what the testing schedule is, and at what sites as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: I appreciate it.

One last question on the Literacy, Library and Information Services, page 194. I think we have already, minister, had a discussion on literacy. Mine is the early intervention, there is no doubt about it. The funding does not seem to be there for it. It is encouraged and I think all the research points to it. I think I made the same pitch last year. That does not stop me from making it this year.

MS FOOTE: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: With the spaces becoming available in the schools as the decline continues, again, I cannot overemphasize the importance of these programs and tie it in with your libraries as well. I know the money that was allotted, was talked about, has been for books. I am sure it is not only for books because the libraries, where they are in operation, do offer early intervention programs for children who come in for reading circles and so on. The only thing I am saying is that I would like to see a lot more emphasis placed on the early literacy and having the children coming in well prepared and ready to take on the system. I know from our conversations that that is where you are as well.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, and this is why, of course, there was $500,000 put in for the literacy in last year's budget. This year there is an additional $1 million. We are working very closely with the national literacy secretariat so that they will match that $1 million. So we will have an endowment fund there of $2.5 million that we should be able to do a lot more with. That will all be in conjunction with the release of our Strategic Literacy Plan.

MR. COLLINS: I just have one final question. In section 3.1.06, Skills Training Projects-Offshore Fund, concerning the 1999-2000 budget to the revised budget and to the 2000-2001 estimates, there seems to be a big difference in the budget and the revised.

MS FOOTE: Do you mean .06, Purchased Services?

MR. COLLINS: Under Purchased Services, yes. Sorry.

MS FOOTE: The money was allocated, but there was a delay in refurbishing the safety and survival training facility in St. John's, which is on the south side. So you can see that it is back in the budget for 2000-2001.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: There was a dispute over the property title there. That is what caused the delay.

MS S. OSBORNE: I had a couple of calls actually, not a lot, but they did concern me, about single mothers who are out there going to school and getting their courses completed in time to qualify for the loan remission. It seems that it takes them a bit longer. They are not floaters, as you say, but they are people who because they are taking care of a baby, or two children, or whatever, at home that they have to go home and take care of them in the night as well as get their study done. They found that three courses are the maximum that they can do. Is there any thought of giving any extra leniency to them in the time frame?

MS FOOTE: We certainly have not factored them into the program. One of the issues that did come up with respect to single mothers was - Florence, you might want to speak to this - in terms of the double amounts that were being allocated to them and whether or not, in fact, we should be taking back one of those amounts. Was that was for living allowance or accommodations?

MS DELANEY: Living allowance. Even under the Canada-Newfoundland Student Loans Program now, students will not be able to get student aid, in fact, beyond the length of the program plus one year. Therefore, regardless as to whether you are a single parent, or married, or a single student, you will be expected to complete your program in the length of the program plus one year. So not only, will you not be eligible for loan remission, you will not, in fact, be eligible for student aid if it takes longer than five years to complete a four year program. I think there is a real concern on behalf of all parties that you have to make sure that the students get in and get out within a reasonable period of time.

MS S. OSBORNE: From the folks who have called me, they are finding it a bit more difficult than, say, a student who did not have the responsibilities of children at home. They find that it is too hard to do the five courses in the semester, that it is easier for them to do three. I don't know if they came -

MS DELANEY: I guess that is the reason why you have the one year time that would be allowed, because most students, you would expect, would go in and try to get through the program actually in the length of the program, which is what most of us would do. I guess the one year is provided for single parents which would give them that extra year, recognizing that they may have some difficulty in completing the program in the actual length of the program.

MS FOOTE: Actually, an additional two semesters in some cases. It could be three if they go in the summer.

MS S. OSBORNE: The other question I had to ask is this. Students who are attending schools outside the Province - like law schools and things on the mainland - the amount that they can get here, the amount they are eligible for here in a student loan, is quite a lot lower than what the students in New Brunswick, say, could get for going into UNB or Dalhousie in Nova Scotia. The amount of loans that are available to them here does not meet with the amount of expenses that they encounter when they get there.

MS FOOTE: It is based on need, it is based on income, on your parents' income, whether you are dependent or independent, the contribution your parents can make, and whether or not you earned any money yourself. All of that is factored in. I don't know that we are any different from the other provinces in that regard.

MS S. OSBORNE: I think of it in terms of the maximum that you can get. I think -

MS FOOTE: The maximum you can borrow.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I think there is a bit of a discrepancy there.

MS DELANEY: That may be the case, but the Student Aid program right across the country is cost-shared with the federal government, where the federal government provides up to 60 per cent of the students' need, and the maximum that the feds provide is $165 per week. Therefore, if additional money is being provided in other provinces it would be over and above the 40 per cent share. Students are concerned with the high debt load. The concern would be that if you give them more money than what is absolutely necessary then you are encouraging them to incur more debt and they will have even greater difficulty in trying to deal with that debt at the end of the day. There is a balance that you have to try strike.

MS S. OSBORNE: The one that I know is not trying to get more debt load. Actually, it is my son. He is twenty-eight now and he got a student loan for his second year of going to UNB and when he got there he was a lot short. We had to sort of fill in, and when he compared with the other students that were there from New Brunswick -

MS FOOTE: Was he a lot short in terms of the cost that he was incurring?

MS DELANEY: It may be the eligibility.

MS S. OSBORNE: No. The eligibility and stuff, you know, (inaudible).

MS DELANEY: It may be a situation whereby when the student aid people go through the assessment they would look at the cost, they would look at parental resources, they would look at the student's income, and they would take that into consideration in determining how much student aid would be available. Maybe, in your particular situation, the child was not eligible for maximum student aid because maximum student aid in this Province is $275 per week.

MS S. OSBORNE: I will check with him and find out. I didn't know all the logistics, I didn't ask him, and that just occurred to me when I saw the student loan that he had called and said what is provided there. I don't know if he spoke with other students from here who went up as well, but he did say to me that what is provided here is quite short of what they are provided there. Actually, he is a fair bit short.

MS DELANEY: We will do the comparison with other provinces if we haven't already done that as part of our detailed review.

MS S. OSBORNE: I appreciate that.

That is it for me.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much for your attention and diligence tonight. It is a little bit past time.

MR. REID: Minister, I would like to make a comment before we leave. I have been having a fair bit of dealings with your department in the past year on a school we have been building on New World Island, and I would like to thank them for their cooperation and their support. In the past year they have done a good job. Thank you.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

MS S. OSBORNE: That doesn't mean you will be getting a second school.

MR. REID: I don't need a second one.

MS FOOTE: You will get your resource centre.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are not getting one either.

On motion the Committee adjourned.