The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Mr. Sweeney): Order, please!

Good morning, folks. I would like to bring the meeting to order. I have just a couple of housekeeping duties first. I need a motion to approve the minutes of the Social Services Committee meetings on Monday, March 26, and on April 2.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Normally, we begin with the minister speaking for up to fifteen minutes, a preamble - her opening remarks - but, before I do that, I would like to introduce the Committee. I am pretty sure everybody here knows everybody: Sheila Osborne, Bob Mercer, Ross Wiseman, Mary Hodder, and myself, George Sweeney.

I guess, Minister, if you are ready, we are ready.

MS FOOTE: I am ready.

CHAIR: One thing - and I am rushing things a little bit this morning - when your officials speak, just introduce yourselves before you speak so we will know who is who for the minutes.

MS FOOTE: Normally, I would start by saying good morning. It is probably not such a good idea this morning, so I will say hi.

Joining me this morning is my deputy minister to my immediate left. Next to Harold Press, we have Bob Young, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance. Immediately behind me, Gary Hatcher, Director of Student Support Services. Next to Gary is Jack Thompson, who also works in our finance department.

Thank you for this opportunity. I think you have all heard by now that we have a new focus - a refocus, I guess - in the Department of Education. With the split from the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, our focus is that much more strongly on the K-12 system, which I think is a good thing. In addition to the K-12 system, of course, we also have an enhanced focus now on literacy initiatives in the Province. That comes under the mandate of the department, as well as early childhood education.

The early childhood education bit is still a component of the department that we are working on, working with Human Resources and Employment and with Health and Community Services; because, obviously when you talk about early childhood development, it impacts on the child in any number of ways, so the three departments are involved in that. We will be looking at the early childhood education component of the early childhood development.

We think that, as a government, we certainly have our priorities straight when it comes to education in this Province. If you look at this most recent budget, and what we have been able to accomplish, I think it was no stretch to say that it was in fact an education budget. We will always have to put money in health, and I think we all recognize that, but when you make decisions to put money in education, those are conscious decisions. You can put in as much as you want and still deliver an education, but the more you put in, of course, the more resources you have and the better the quality of education.

I am very proud of the budget that we brought down, and I am very proud of this government and its commitment to improving on an ongoing basis the quality of education in Newfoundland and Labrador, which I think is second to none in the country.

Certainly we have shown our commitment if you look at the fact that we have not removed any teachers from the system, even though we have had a significant decline in student enrollment out there, and a decline in student population that will go on for some time. We could easily have taken teachers out of the system and been justified in doing so. Having said that, I think the sense of where this government is coming from is that we have gone through enough in the educational system in terms of the restructuring and the reform of education that it was time to have that stabilizing year. We have done that, having consulted all of our stakeholders, and come to the conclusion that we need to do that to get ourselves back on an even keel, and certainly on a go-forward basis. Whether or not we will be able to continue to do that is another story. Is there a need to do that? That is what we will have to look at as well.

If you look at the amount of money we have invested in education, there is no comparison in the history of this Province. We have put $160 million up front in terms of capital cost, capital construction, and we are very proud about that. We have also, last year, as all of you would know, when we looked at education in the Province, we put in place a ministerial committee which is chaired by Dr. Len Williams and Dr. Ron Sparkes. They came up with any number of recommendations which the government accepted; some of which, of course, cannot be implemented by this department but would have implications in other departments. When you look at the recommendations that are the responsibility of Department of Education, we have gone forward to say that we agree with the recommendations, and the costs associated with that, of course, was seen in this budget as well. We are very pleased again that government saw fit to respond favorably to the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel Report.

As you know, we also have responsibility for the public library system. We saw fit this year to put another $1 million in for new books. Again, this goes back to our focus on enhancing literacy in the Province and doing everything we can to try and ensure that people have access to the resources that they require to see our level of literacy in the Province improve, because I think that is important for us if we are going to move forward as a Province with an educated population and a Province that can take advantage of employment opportunities.

I won't go on any more because I am sure that a lot of the information that I have in my head will come out in terms of the questions that you put to us. Rather than take up time, Mr. Chair, on a preamble, I will just turn it back to you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess to start the day, Elizabeth, would you like to call the first subhead?

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: I am going to pass 1.1.01. for now and go to 1.2.01., Executive Support. Under 01. there is a difference from $641,000 down to $456,500. What positions have been dropped?

MS FOOTE: You will recall, Sheila, when I was off, that we had an acting minister. We also put in place a parliamentary assistant at the time, and a secretarial position to go with that; that was Percy Barrett. Of course, that is no longer necessary.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

I will move right down to 1.2.02., Administrative Support. I will not read out the whole paragraph there, but the appropriations provide for the management, et cetera, within the Departments of Education and Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education. I am assuming that this $1,295,000 is shared between the two departments.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS S. OSBORNE: How proportionately is that? K-12 gets what proportion and Youth and Post-Secondary gets what?

MS FOOTE: Do you want to speak to that, Harold?

MR. PRESS: What that actually means is that our financial services, our human resource services, and our IT services, are all shared, so the divisions responsible for those will have a mandate to serve both departments. In fact, these accounts are actually shown in this single department, so they actually reside functionally in the Department of Education but will have responsibility, will have a mandate, to serve both the Department of Education and the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

MS FOOTE: There is no breakdown as such in terms of what percentage (inaudible).

MR. PRESS: There is no breakdown as such.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 1.2.03., Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees, do you have a list of those committees, or the Advisory Committees there, or is it an extensive list, too long to go into?

MS FOOTE: Yes, it is the Newfoundland and Labrador's Women's Institute; the Council of Ministers of Education, of which the Minister of Education, or both Ministers of Education now would be members; we have the Canadian Education Association; the Federation of School Councils; the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association; the Industrial Relations Officer, which is one position with the School Boards Association; we have the Provincial Membership in Atlantic Provinces Educational Foundation, which I commonly refer to as APF, and those are the organizations that we support.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 1.2.04., Corporate Planning and Research. I assume that the appropriations there, the HRE and IT, will be shared the same.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, it is the same.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS S. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01.10. Professional Development, Substitute Teachers, that has been increased by $2 million. Is there an explanation for that?

MS FOOTE: We had an increase in term substitutes, which accounted for $800,000; and we had an additional pay period there of $500,000.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.1.02., School Board Operations, utilities, does that cover the phones, cable and Internet, or does it just cover the heat?

MS FOOTE: Heat and light? Does it cover everything?

WITNESS: Pretty well, board operation.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: But not telephones, cable and the Internet. Who is responsible for paying the telephone bills and cable for the school?

MS FOOTE: The department provides every board with an operating grant. That would come out of their operating grant.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

I will go right on over to 2.1.06., School Supplies. How many courses have textbooks which are out of print?

MR. PRESS: We have probably half a dozen each year that might go out of print that we have to go and request a reprinting of that. We budget, of that amount that you see, about $3 million for replacement of text. Most of those are in print, and we have a number, maybe about half a dozen, or eight, that are out of print. In those cases, we have to go back at an increased cost of maybe 10 per cent or 15 per cent extra for the company to actually do a reprint of those particular text.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

There are only 10 per cent of the textbooks replaced every year? Is it 10 per cent?

MS FOOTE: That is the number, yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Back in December, I do not think you were in the House then, Minister, I asked a question of Mr. Lloyd Matthews at the time, and I had a couple of textbooks with me that were absolutely atrocious. Is anything being done to look into this? This was not just an anomaly. I think that is persistent. I get a lot of calls from parents whose textbooks are really in bad shape.

MS FOOTE: In fact, I have asked to have that looked into, to find out the condition of the textbooks in the schools, to find out if 10 per cent is adequate. Obviously, there is a significant cost to replacing textbooks so we have to be responsible from the other end as well. There are a number of things we can do here.

Certainly, one of the problems again is having some control over the textbooks and the condition in which they come back. We have to have the teachers work with us, and the parents work with us, on that front because of the significant cost of replacing textbooks, but I have asked to have that reviewed.

MS S. OSBORNE: I know that is really difficult to police. How do you get it? If the textbooks are destroyed, how do you get it? I know it is an awful thing to say, but when we bought the textbooks and parents and children were responsible, they seemed to be kept in better condition. I would not suggest that you do that now.

MS FOOTE: I will make note of that.

MR. PRESS: May I make one comment?

What we will see, I think, in the next couple of years, when we saw an extra million dollars plus last year and we will see an extra million and a half dollars this year for new text to introduce, we will take more and more pressure off the older text that are in the system and so on. As this happens, and as we replace more and more with current curriculum, particularly in language arts and mathematics and science now, which should almost be fully implemented in the next couple of years, we are going to have new sort of state-of-the-art text in those areas. It will take some of the stress off the older textbooks that are currently in the system.

MS S. OSBORNE: I know this in another one that is extremely difficult to control, but what is the recovery rate of textbooks that are given, I think, from Grades 9-12, that are issued to people who are receiving social assistance?

MR. PRESS: The recovery rate - I think it is quite low, actually.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is another one that is really difficult to control.

MS FOOTE: What would you recommend there?

MS S. OSBORNE: Don't write it down.

Back over to 2.2.01., Curriculum Development. There has been an increase in 01., Salaries, of a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Who is involved there? There is an extra pay period. Is there anything else involved there?

MS FOOTE: This is the one, I think, where we are hiring a music consultant for the department. Remember, one of the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel was to hire a music consultant, music specialist, and that is what we will be doing there.

MS S. OSBORNE: So does that account for all the difference? Is that combined with the extra pay period?

MR. PRESS: If I may, what happened is, the added value is only from the $777,700. What happened was, in this past year we had some difficulty backfilling some positions. For example, we had the manager of curriculum development who had gone to Intergovernmental Affairs, and we had a bit of turnover there. It is really hard, for example, if somebody leaves in April, to get a teacher to come in for two months. So, we had a little bit of slippage in salaries. That explains somewhat the drop and then the difference, the added value, is the music specialist. That is also accounted in Transportation and Communications on the next line.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 2.2.03. What is the status now of the construction of the Distance Learning Centre? Is there going to be new construction? Has a site been designated, or will it be put in an already existing building?

MS FOOTE: We are not looking at new construction for this; but, of course, we are still doing an analysis of where this should be located. We have hired - I don't know if it is called a director?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MS FOOTE: - who has been hired certainly to get things moving. In terms of location, we are still having a discussion about that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 2.3.01., School Services. There is a big drop in salaries from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We had funding for temporary employment that has not been provided for 2001-2002. We had a gentleman there who was on special assignment for part of the year in 2000-2001.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Will funding be provided?

MS FOOTE: No, what you see there is what we have.

MS S. OSBORNE: What you will get, okay.

Down to 2.3.02., Student Testing and Evaluation, the difference from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002.

MS FOOTE: Are you looking at salaries?

MS S. OSBORNE: No. Actually, I am looking at 2.3.02.05., Professional Services. I am sorry. Do you have an explanation for that? Has somebody been hired? Is that for public exams?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. PRESS: That is public exams, CRTs, and the school level reporting. Some of that might come out of salaries; some of it may, in fact, be contractual. If it is contractual, it will come out of professional services rather than salaries.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Who will be conducting the public exams? Has somebody been hired to conduct that?

MR. PRESS: We have seconded a number of teachers who will come in. They will not actually do the writing; they will use committees, comprised of teachers and so on, who will basically generate the tests. Then, they will be marked through a marking board of teachers after the school year is over.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

In Professional Development, 2.3.03., Allowances and Assistance is the same right across the board there. How much of that was actually used?

MS FOOTE: The figure that is there, the $3,515,000, is that what you are questioning?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: That was used. What we have done is, Professional Development has been brought together under the one heading, because in the past it was in different headings all over the place. This will show you just how much money we actually spend in Professional Development.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Was there loss of time in Professional Development? Was any Professional Development cancelled?

MR. PRESS: No, there wasn't much, if any, to my knowledge.

MS S. OSBORNE: Because of the loss of school time?

MR. PRESS: No, but most of what you see here is substitute time. What that means is that there will be a teacher in place of the teacher who is off having the Professional Development.

MS S. OSBORNE: There will be no loss of school time?

MR. PRESS: No, there shouldn't be. There will be in some instances, but it would not show up here as a line item. What this is will cover the cost of substitute time for teacher Professional Development and also for educational leave. For example, if a teacher has paid leave for one term, then there will be a term substitute who will go in and replace, and that cost is indicated here under Grants and Subsidies.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.4.01.04., what supplies are involved there under that $189,000?

MS FOOTE: We have had an increase in funding allocation to cover costs associated with new autism related initiatives within government. A salary unit was provided within Supplies for this initiative, but the unit has been reallocated to Salaries from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002, so our salaries go up and our supplies go down.

MS S. OSBORNE: In 2000, there was $215,300 budgeted, but only $147,300 used. Why did that cutback occur?

MR. PRESS: That is a revised figure, and that is likely to revise up because a lot of this is alternate format materials. These are special computers that are done for children, alternate books on tape, all kinds of materials that would be required for learning for students who might have a visual impairment or hearing impairment and needs some materials in order to fit into the regular school stream.

A lot of orders will be coming out in the next few months, so the revised figure is likely to be closer to the budget figure.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 3.1.01.10., Grants and Subsidies, what happened between 2000 and 2001, from $431,000 up to $931,000?

MS FOOTE: This was the $500,000 that was put in for literacy initiatives.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, that is all I have.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Would any of the other Committee members have any questions?

Minister, you and your officials have done a great job this morning.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

CHAIR: I will ask Elizabeth now to call the heads, inclusive.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 3.2.02. carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you all very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.