Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands, substitutes for Bob Mercer, MHA for Humber East, during part of the meeting.

The Committee met at 8:40 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Sweeney): Order, please!

Good morning. I will begin by introducing myself. I am George Sweeney, the Chair. We also have Fabian Manning, Bob Mercer, Mary Hodder, and we have some other Committee members who may drop in later. In any case, Minister, if you would like to start.

MS KELLY: I will just start by introducing myself.

CHAIR: Just a reminder to your officials, after we call the heads, when you answer a question, please identify yourself for Hansard.

Go ahead, Minister.

MS KELLY: Okay, I will just start by introducing myself. Then, my staff will introduce themselves and I will just give a brief opening statement.

I am Sandra Kelly, Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, and also the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women; but, we will just be looking at the Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education piece of it this morning.

MR. HOLLETT: Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister.

MS RUBY: Carol Ruby, Assistant Deputy Minister with the Youth Services and Career Development Branch.

MR. GALWAY: Gerald Galway, Assistant Deputy Minister of Post-Secondary Education.

MR. YOUNG: Bob Young, Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance and Administration.

MR. THOMPSON: Jack Thompson, Director of Financial Services.

MS KELLY: I just want to give a brief preamble this morning. I thought it was kind of important, being that our department is new. We are still in the beginning process, so I wanted to give you a brief background on the new department and talk a little bit about the department's responsibilities and the reason, actually, that we were set up. I think most people would realize that government felt that we needed a more focused role on youth and higher education in particular, and I would like to outline very briefly the kind of vision that I have for the department.

I think it is fair to say that many people in the Province, over the last few years, know that the focus has primarily in this Province been on the K-12 system, because we have gone through a massive education reform. When the Premier looked at setting up this department, and asked me to take on this challenge, I can tell you I was very excited about it. I have long believed that the youth of this Province are really the key to our future, and I am excited about having the opportunity in particular to set up new programs and initiatives that will enable us to help our young people really achieve their full potential, especially in regards to academic and social development. There is a particular challenge here, in particular in rural areas.

We all know, actually, that an educated population is critical to the development of the Province's economic and social well-being. This new department underscores government's commitment to investing in our young people and our post-secondary education system so that they can help us create new opportunities for all the people of our Province. All the indicators clearly tell us - we know that countries like Ireland, and other well-developed countries, especially new economies that have been developed, have all been based on education and skills training. It is not only for the sake of the individuals who get the education but, we know, for the whole country that benefits when our young people have a good education.

I was looking at the employment statistics as we were setting up this department. When you look at the high unemployment rate for young people, you realize that the unemployment rate for those with a post-secondary diploma in this country is less than 6 per cent. For those with a university degree, it is less than 5 per cent. So, that is really the motivation behind our department and moving forward with trying to achieve academic excellence for our young people. By academic excellence, I do not just mean that everybody has to go to university. I think we need to be looking at new programs in all of the new industries, but also to not forget that right now we have a huge shortage of skilled trades people right across this country. As a matter of fact, it is getting to be global.

We have been meeting with success in this Province in enabling learners to reach a better quality of life through education. Over the past twenty years, I think if you listen to all of the rhetoric that is out there, you often do not realize just what we have already accomplished. Over the past twenty years, high school completion rates for young adults have risen from 58 per cent to 85 per cent in this Province. Post-secondary completion rates have gone from 27 per cent to 58 per cent, and post- secondary education participation right now is at an all-time high. We have over 80 per cent of high school graduates enrolling in post-secondary programs.

As we indicated in the householder that was just sent out after the budget, that I hope all of you received, we have mostly been basing this new department, and the context in which it was set up, on a series of consultations that government have done over the last few years. I think the two in particular for my new department are Jobs and Growth consultation and, of course, the Ministerial Panel on Educational Delivery; of which both spoke to the K-12 system and the post-secondary.

In those consultations, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have pointed out, I think, five or six very important things. They want us to build on a high quality education system with educational achievement and literacy as very, very important. Opportunities for students in rural schools was pointed out in both sets of consultations as being lacking, and that we need to focus more on it. They also talked about the difficulty with the transition from school to work.. I think there is also a difficulty with transition from high school to post-secondary, and that is something we are putting programs in to address. Of course, one of the most important that we heard from students and their parents was the high level of student debt.

In responding to some of these concerns, over the next year the new department will be putting in place several initiatives to react and to address these concerns. One of the first things we will be doing, and we are putting all of it together now, is putting a Youth Advisory Committee in place. This will be a forum for youth in our Province to talk to government. It will also be a forum for us to communicate with youth, to ask their advice and maybe initiate some research around how we will be addressing some of the difficulties. We will be setting up that Youth Advisory Committee in the next month or so, and that will be done through a public process.

We also want to bring in place a Youth Apprenticeship Program, and I think that maybe we will need to even look at: is the name appropriate there for what we want to do? The whole purpose of it is to develop better linkages between youth and the labour force; but, also, it will enable students to save for their post-secondary education, to get some pre-credits before they go into their post-secondary education. I think it will be a huge factor in helping young people decide on career opportunities, what they would like to do with their future, so that when they go into post-secondary they will have better, solid decision-making behind their thinking process in that direction.

This new department will take the lead on the Federal-Provincial Labour Market Development Agreement, and that will provide us in the upcoming year with $127 million for training and other employment initiatives. We will be establishing, as we announced in the Budget, a new Student Investment and Opportunity Corporation. That will be put in place to coordinate what student programs we already have but to also build on some new youth employment programs. The total investment there will over $8 million in the upcoming year. Approximately half of this is programs that are already in place, like SWASP, and there will be a new $4 million in this Student Investment and Opportunity Corporation. A lot of the focus for the $4 million will be directed in particular towards rural areas.

Other things that we have done this year - in the past few years, actually - tuition has been frozen for the last several years at all our public institutions. It is interesting to note, because not a lot of people know it: university tuition fees in this Province are the lowest in Atlantic Canada, and one of the lowest in the country. The College of the North Atlantic fees are the second lowest in Atlantic Canada. This year, of course, tuition fees at Memorial will be cut by 10 per cent for almost all of the university, except for international students, med students and the Marine Institute. The Marine Institute, since they became part of the university, have continued to pay the same tuition as the College of the North Atlantic, which they were before they went with Memorial, but the College of the North Atlantic tuition and med students have also been frozen for this year.

Government, through its loans remission program, spends about $6.1 million annually to reduce the provincial student loan for high need students who complete their programs in a timely manner; in other words, they complete within a year of when they were supposed to.

We have just had a Student Aid Review Advisory Committee in place that will shortly be presenting recommendations on how we can further ease debt reduction and bring in debt reduction measures this year. We hope to have these in place before September, before the university and colleges reopen for their new sessions.

I should say that, in spite of reduced federal transfers for post-secondary education, this government has increased, since 1997-1998, post-secondary institutions', public institutions', budget by 21.3 per cent. Of course, I should just close by mentioning the Opportunity Fund, that government has matched the university and put $29 million into. We have been spending over $8 million that has been allocated this year on renovations and equipment for the College of the North Atlantic, and there is a further $3 million installment in this year's budget being paid to the MUN Opportunity Fund.

Another small part of the budget, but one that I am very encouraged we were able to put some money into this year, is that we have put half a million dollars there that the university and the College of the North Atlantic can use to lever additional federal research funding. They were telling us that in many instances they could be getting new research money for their institutions but they did not have a base budget to put their share in, so we have put this half a million dollars there for them to be able to use in that way. I think most of it will probably go towards funding that can be accessed from the Canada Foundation for Innovation.

I would like to say thank you for the opportunity to make the opening statement, and I welcome any questions that you have on our Budget Estimates, keeping in mind that this is a new department so I do not think there is a lot from last year to comment on, but I am sure you have questions on the upcoming year.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before we proceed, I would like to have a motion to adopt the minutes of the Monday, April 3, meeting of the Department of Labour.

WITNESS: With a minor amendment.

CHAIR: With a minor amendment, yes.

WITNESS: Line one.

CHAIR: Line one, p.m., yes, absolutely.

WITNESS: I don't know about you, but I wasn't here at 6:30 a.m.

CHAIR: No, I wasn't either.

Since we are doing a correction there, George Joyce is ADM, Assistant Deputy Minister, for identification purposes.

On motion, minutes, as amended, adopted.

CHAIR: Elizabeth, I guess we should call the subhead.

CLERK: Head 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Head 1.1.01.

Who is the first questioner? Fabian, you are on.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the minister for her opening remarks. I, too, am very pleased to see a department that is more focused on the youth of the Province. While I understand it is a new department, there are a lot of old problems that need to be worked on over the next little while, and I certainly look forward, as a member of the House, to watching the department grow.

I would like to make a few financial comments first on some of the numbers here. As you touched on, we do not have some amounts to compare it to, but there are a few here that I would just like to ask a few questions on, if I could. Then I have some other issues that I want to touch on. I will not be keeping you here all morning; you need not worry about that.

On 2.1.02., Student Investment Corporation -

MS KELLY: Student Investment Corporation?

MR. MANNING: Yes.

We had a budget last year of $4.8 million - I am just going to round these off - and we had an increase up to $6.5 million, and we are back to $4.8 million again this year. I am just wondering about the increased amount; if it is needed, why are we back to $4.8 million again this year?

MS KELLY: Actually, I will ask my officials to address it, but I know that the actual budgeted amount, once the budget came out, with decisions that were made just before the budget, that this is, in fact, not correct, and I meant to point that out. I think this is the only incorrect one that is in our Budget Estimates this morning, that it is $8.5 million. When I did my preamble, I should have pointed out to you, when I said there is over $8 million, that money was put back into this. I think there is now $8.5 million; $4.5 million is from last year's SWASP programs and what is listed here, and then there is a new approximately $4 million that is gone in for the set-up of the new programs that we hope to do this summer that will focus on rural students. Maybe, Bruce, you could address this in a more detailed way.

MR. HOLLETT: When you look at this here, what you see is $4.8 million in 2001-2002. Those are for the employment programs that have been in place for some time. These are -

MR. MANNING: SWASP and -

MR. HOLLETT: Exactly: SWASP, the graduate employment program, et cetera. What also happened was, at the end of March there was a $4 million investment made into the Student Investment and Opportunity Corporation; so that money, before March 31, was put into a bank account and this corporation was set up. So that corporation now has a bank account of $4 million cash, plus the $4.8 million in the student employment programs, to spend.

The revised number that you see there is $6.5 million. At the time that the Estimates were printed, the plan was to put $2 million into this bank account for the corporation; but, between the printing of the Estimates and when the Budget came down, it became clear that there were going to be more savings in other areas in the department, so government put an extra $2 million in there. So you have the $4 million sitting in the bank, plus the $4.8 million in the -

MR. MANNING: Plus the allocation under programs last year.

MR. HOLLETT: Right.

MR. MANNING: Maybe if the Budget had to be a couple of weeks off, you would have come up with another couple of million. Who knows?

MS KELLY: Actually, we were very pleased to get that $4 million. We were a bit worried about how we were going to meet all the objectives with just $2 million.

MR. MANNING: On head 3.1.04., Offshore Training Initiatives - Offshore Fund.

MS KELLY: Which one was it, offshore? Okay.

MR. MANNING: Offshore Training Initiatives - Offshore Fund, Grants and Subsidies, budgeted $1.2 million, revised to $190,000, and this year estimated $540,000. Could you explain the difference in the figures there?

MS KELLY: Well, it is more, I think, that the offshore fund is coming to an end, as was agreed under the Atlantic Accord when our offshore started. For the details, Bruce, maybe you could show specifically the details around that, but I think that is mainly what it is.

MR. HOLLETT: What happens with this, this is basically money under federal/provincial programs, and what happens is that prior to the beginning of the fiscal year a number of outside groups will identify projects that they want funded. In this particular case, they are all skills training projects that they would like to have funded under this particular program, and then the federal/provincial management committee will approve those projects; but quite often when people actually go to roll the projects out, the timing of the projects does not turn out to be what everybody thought it would be, and that is what happened here. So, in fact, the total amount of money that is available from the federal government, and provincial money that matches the federal money going into these projects, is the same; it is just a difference in the timing of the cash flows.

MR. MANNING: Thank you.

Line 10, under 3.2.02., Physical Plant and Equipment, they had budgeted $3.1 million, revised it to $4.2 million, and we are back to an estimate for this year of $3 million. Could you explain that?

MS KELLY: Yes, I think that is mostly the MUN Opportunity Fund, to start fulfilling our obligation there. I think it is also cash flows for Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, for the renovations to the brick work that had to be done there. I am not sure if my memory is absolutely correct there, but am I close?

MR. HOLLETT: Just going through, starting with the budget for 2000-2001, I can just sort of break those numbers down for you and make it clear what happened.

The $3.1 million - there is $1 million in each of these numbers, actually, right across, for a regular payment to MUN for capital works within the university. In addition, last year there was $2.1 million budgeted to do some brick work at Sir Wilfred Grenfell College in Corner Brook, and to do some repairs out there that were necessary.

What actually happened during the year was, the money to pay for the brick work has not actually flowed because the work has not yet started, so there was actually $0.2 million spent on that project at Sir Wilfred Grenfell College last year, plus the $1 million in the regular capital - that is $1.2 million - plus $3 million that was put in at the end of the year for the Opportunity Fund. That is where the $4.2 million came from.

If you go over to 2001-2002, there is $2 million in there now for the brick work at Grenfell, plus the $1 million for regular capital. So, the brick work at Grenfell should actually take place now this year as planned.

MS KELLY: If winter ever ends.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. MANNING: The $3 million out of the $4.2 million was for the Opportunity Fund?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

On 3.3.01., Operations of the College of the North Atlantic, a budget of $54,934,400, revised up to $57,634,400, and again this year we are back to an estimate of $55,428,200. Can you give me some -

MS KELLY: I think that relates more to federal contribution agreements for training; because, at the College of the North Atlantic, they have been entering into many partnerships besides the funding that the provincial government puts in place. I don't know if the staff have any other comments to make.

MR. HOLLETT: That is exactly it. There was an extra $2.7 million identified by HRDC that they could flow to the Province directly for training, and that is what happened. That is the increase.

MR. MANNING: On 3.4.01., Administration, we had a budget of $813,600, revised up to $884,100, and this year we have a budget of $1,013,100. Does that have to do with the new department set-up?

MS KELLY: Some of it relates to student aid, I believe. Bruce, could you give us any more detail there?

MR. HOLLETT: In August of 2000, the Province entered into a new student aid agreement with the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, which actually changed the nature of the responsibilities, so there were extra positions added for - there is money there for extra positions for support and auditing, basically, of the new student aid agreement. It is for two extra positions, because of the new student aid agreement with the bank.

MR. MANNING: On 3.4.03., Newfoundland Student Loans Program, we had a budget of $31.5 million, down to $23.5 million revised. Is that in regard to applications for student loans? Why would we see such a reduction in that?

MS KELLY: A lot of it, I think, is due to the changes under the new agreement with CIBC, and the way the differences in cash flows are. Bruce, maybe you could give some more detail there?

MR. HOLLETT: With the new agreement with CIBC, it actually reduced the amount of money that the Province had to spend last year; plus, under the new agreement, the Province has assumed the risk for - we no longer make a risk premium payment to the bank, and we have assumed some of the risk, for which the bank is actually paying us some money to take over that risk, in three installments. So, there was a $4.7 million payment from the bank last year, as well as reduced expenditures. Under the new agreement, it is a little more difficult now to estimate exactly. Because we have had no experience under this new agreement with the Bank of Commerce, it is a little more difficult to estimate exactly what the expenditures are going to be, but last year this agreement only came in place in August. It is negotiated over the first part of the year; so, at the point the budget was done last year, we did not know what the new agreement was going to be.

MR. MANNING: In regard to the level of risk that the Province has today, versus what it had before this agreement, could you elaborate on that a little bit for me?

MS KELLY: I think Gerald could comment on it, but I think it is fair to say that there is an increased level of risk for the Province. The recommendations that have been made by our student aid review committee, we hope, will mitigate some of that. At the same time, the Province has every intention of trying also to put in measures that will alleviate a lot of the student debt load that our students are currently bearing. At least we can, under the provincial part of the Canada-Newfoundland student loan agreements that are in place. So we hope to alleviate a lot of the student debt there, but by taking very proactive measures. Gerald can certainly comment on the rest of your question.

MR. GALWAY: Yes, the former agreement that we had, and that most provinces had, with the various banks who were involved in student lending was in a risk premium arrangement whereby provinces paid banks a risk premium to account for losses that the banks would assume for students who did not pay back their student loans. This risk premium, in our case, was 10 per cent of the value of the portfolio, increasing to 12.5 per cent, depending on the portfolio's performance. The new arrangement that we have with the bank, and that all provinces have with banks - because the banks have served notice that they are no longer willing to engage in agreements that have a risk premium associated with them - the new arrangement is that we will borrow the funds from the bank to pay to students, providing student loans, and the Province assumes the risk for any unpaid student loans.

MR. MANNING: Thank you.

Subhead 3.5.02., Training Programs, we had a budget of $3 million, it went up to $4 million, and the estimate this year is $3.5 million. That is more of a take-up in training. Is that a cost-shared agreement with HRDC?

MS KELLY: That was an extra $1 million from our federal contribution agreements for training last year, so it is actually an extra $1 million from the feds.

MR. MANNING: Subhead 3.6.01., we had a budget of $160,600, revised to $152,900, and we are down to $38,500 this year on salaries. Is that a reconfiguration of people within the department?

MS KELLY: I think it is more based on the Economic Renewal Agreement coming to an end, and that there were projects approved last year. The decreases are just showing the payout of the final projects that were approved last year. They are not all completed yet.

MR. MANNING: Is that agreement up this year?

MS KELLY: Yes, I think so. I think it is up now, really, and all you are doing is cleaning up the back-end pieces.

MR. MANNING: That is on the numbers. Can I continue?

WITNESS: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. MANNING: I don't have a lot more anyway.

I want to touch on subhead 2.1.01., Tutoring for Tuition.

MS KELLY: Subhead 2.?

MR. MANNING: Subhead 2.1.01. I think so, yes, it falls under Youth Services.

MS KELLY: Okay.

MR. MANNING: I am quite familiar with this program, as a matter of fact. I think it is an excellent program. My concern with it - I will get into a couple of district issues here now, just to try to learn some things about a program, I guess. I had a situation in my district where the top student in a Level III class, who had been the top student since Grade 7, applied for Tutoring for Tuition and was not accepted - some run-ins, not run-ins but concerns raised by not only his own parents but several parents. At the present time, he has five parents who are paying him, on the side, to tutor their children, but he was not accepted in his school for Tutoring for Tuition. I know it is not based on marks alone, and there are other things with it, but I found it really strange. I just wonder the criteria, or is that left to the sole decision of the people within that particular school, within the school board?

MS KELLY: I would have to ask the officials to answer that question because, at that detailed level, I would not have been involved.

MS. RUBY: Mr. Manning, that is a really good question. In terms of programs such as this, and you mentioned some of the really good programs for youth, one of the things we try to do, too, is re-evaluate some of the criteria and look at them.

With this particular one, you are right, it is not only the academics. It is looked at in terms of social development, the kinds of volunteer work, and there is a whole host of other things. In that particular case - certainly, I would be happy to have a chat with you and give you some more information and tell you about all of the different programs we have, and that is certainly open to everybody here. We do want to look at: are there ways to improve these programs? Some of them are so good that we have probably seven times the requests, so it could even be something like financial.

MR. MANNING: That one concerned me. It is very close to me, because one of the particular students - I had two - won a $50,000 scholarship from Canada Trust for community leadership and youth involvement. He just came back from a Washington summit of community youth leaders - he spent a week in Washington - and he happens to be my nephew. He has been first in his class since Grade 6, and he was turned down at the local school for Tutoring for Tuition. It really amazed me, to be honest with you. What I am concerned about is that he had a problem with it, it really bothered him, and of all the things that - he was not involved with, say, sports in school, but he was involved in a lot of other things. It didn't really pan out and it bothered him.

MS. RUBY: That is right and, from a personal point of view, the whole self-esteem.

MR. MANNING: That is the part that concerned me very much. If there was a set criteria where he could attain and reach in that particular case, but it is just that it came down to different ways of -

On the Youth Advisory Committee, Minister, you touched on the public process that you are planning on going through to put that Youth Advisory Committee in place. Could you elaborate on that for me?

MS KELLY: I would be pleased to, actually. We are now getting a paper ready, a discussion paper, on how we will approach this. I hope the approach will be that we will put an ad in the paper and, of course, we will fax out to all of our youth serving groups - all of the final eight councils and the youth network groups and Allied Youth and Girl Guides - all of them that are out there, we will fax the information out or mail it out to all of them.

What we will be looking for is a Youth Advisory Council, somewhere between twelve and fifteen youth, I would anticipate, probably between the ages of either twelve or fifteen, we are not sure yet. We are still discussing how young the lower age limit should be and how high the upper one should be, somewhere between twenty-five and twenty-nine. I want to make sure that all regions of the Province have the opportunity to have a student sit on this advisory committee. In particular, we want to make sure there is some gender equity there. We want to make that we have representations of Aboriginal youth, disabled youth, and to make sure there are youth there who are interested in the arts, in sports and recreation. I guess what we want is a very broad-based group with a lot of experience, and not necessarily have a group of all presidents of organizations. First, we looked at just drawing in some of our twelve best groups, and a representative from each of those, but we felt that we wanted all of these students or all of these young people to sit on this committee in a way that was there for the committee. You would leave your other hats at the door. That is why we will be asking for public participation in this. Naturally, we would hope that you would have students accepted to it who already sit on either student councils or some other groups that I have outlined, but they will not be chosen specifically for that. We hope to get a very broad range of youth participation from all over Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. MANNING: I certainly wish you luck with that, because I think it is something that is definitely needed in the Province, and certainly something that is of great advantage to you, as minister, also.

On the youth programs, the Student Investment Corporation, as we touched on earlier in relation to the amount, $8.5 million or whatever, I am just wondering: I find a lot of times, from an MHA's point of view, not only with youth programs but with any programs available from government, is there any thought being given to packaging? If somebody called me up and said: What is available in regard to youth programs in the department? I go over to HRE - and they had, and they are working on another one now, they tell me - and you just pick up a little page with all the different programs in it, a little kind of breakdown of each program. Is there some thought being given to something along that line under your opportunities corporation so if I call over, as an MHA, someone would be kind enough to send me over a package of youth programs?

MS KELLY: Yes, we will be. For this year you will find that it will be mostly building on the programs that we already have there. As we put our youth apprenticeship program and that in place you will see some new programs added to, or some revisions and refinements to SWASP and other programs; but this year, I anticipate right now - and, of course, after the strike is over we will be able to put some more detail around all of this - the plan for this year is to roll it out as quickly as we can, to build on the programs that we have there, and by next year, as we set up new youth apprenticeship programs and that, that we would build them all in together so that you would truly have one-stop shopping for youth employment and career opportunities training.

MR. MANNING: Just a couple of questions on student aid and then I am going to pass it to somebody else.

I get a fair amount of calls on student aid at my office and, I put on the record here, great cooperation from the people we deal with there. While at times the other end of the phone is harder to handle than the student aid side of it, I find that I have a concern, I guess, an issue, that maybe we can address. I don't want to specify private colleges, but certainly in these couple of cases that I have there doesn't seem to be - again, I stand to be corrected - career counseling, I guess, is the proper phrase.

I had a case where I had a young girl in my office who was looking at her third program at a private college here in town. She was up towards $30,000 plus in debt. She was into a program for three or four months and realized she was not able to do the program. The last one they put her in was veterinarian assistant, and she found out two months after that she was allergic to cats and dogs. Here she was, up to $30,000 in debt and not one employable skill. Her parents were not able to afford to assist her in any way, so she was operating basically on a student loan and a part-time job that she had at a local place here in town. I said to her: Do you sit down with anybody and discuss what you are capable of doing? Everybody is not on the same level in this world. She said: Well, I get some help from missus at the school; but missus at the school never had an agenda.

I don't want to pinpoint anybody here for the problem, but there seems to be - and I have had a couple of cases of this - a problem here with regard to taking that student, giving some type of test - and again you have to be careful of how you word some of these things - some type of way of determining what programs at this school, if she wants to attend this school or if she was accepted for this school, she is capable of doing; instead of, what program can you get a loan for? The question should be: What program are you capable of doing? Then, let's work around that.

I was just wondering, in regard to a department, is it something - I know you have looked at it and I know it is an issue. I am just wondering what -

MS KELLY: I can totally agree with most of what you are saying, and say to you that one of the main reasons this department was set up was to address some of this. When I describe the youth apprenticeship program we are going to put in place, that program will probably start at Grade 9, and the type of testing you are talking about will be done there. Some of it is being done in the schools now, but it is not being followed through the way it needs to be. They need to start looking at this type of testing in Grade 9, and then putting in place job shadowing, mentoring, co-op programs. There are all kinds of programs we can be putting in place through this apprenticeship program, so that when our students finish high school they will have a much better idea - for instance, if this young woman had been able to go out with a vet for a few days and have this type of - well, first of all, she would have known, through having the testing done, what her abilities were in that area, and is it an area she should be looking at? If she was not satisfied, even with the testing, you can go out and help prove it through job shadowing and summer work employment opportunities.

We hope to, in the future, start taking care of that problem long before it occurs; but right now, through HRDC and HRE, there are certainly programs out there, and counselors who can sit down with young women and men like this who are having these difficulties. I agree with you, that they should not necessarily be going to a private sector institution, that it is in their best interest many times to be accepting the student, especially if they need students to fill out a class, or if government funding is available through HRDC, for instance.

I think it is very important that they have some form of independent advice and help before they go into these, in particular in areas when they have tried one program and decided - it could be for many reasons - that it was not for them, and then they are into their second and third programs.

If you look at the students who have a high level of debt, in many instances that is why it is there. The recommendations that are coming back in now through our Student Aid Advisory Committee are giving us some very good recommendations on preventing this. That is why we are putting these new programs in place.

There is help out there right now, through both provincial and federal governments, to get some of this testing and counseling done; but we hope, in the future, that all of that will be well taken care of and money being able to be saved, as I said, while they are in high school, and credits obtained towards post-secondary education so you know what you want to do when you finish. I do not think it will take care of everyone. Many times you will find students, as they mature, will change their minds, but they should not be encountering the high level of debt that they are when switching programs, like the young woman you described.

MR. MANNING: I certainly welcome that news. I think starting it in high school is a positive move for the simple reason, as you touched on in your opening remarks, in regards to people moving on to post-secondary. When I graduated from school in 1980, half who were in my class went fishing, went into the fish plant. Now, in the past four or five years, in my hometown, everybody who graduates goes somewhere. It seems that we have to go somewhere. If we can get in here, as long as I am announcing on the stage that I am heading out somewhere, I am doing the best kind.

There is kind of a push on these people to get in somewhere, and all that evolves into: well, wherever I can accepted, I am in; and, in a lot of cases, private colleges, and it creates some problems that I have some concerns with. I think, if you could get into Grade 9 and start working on it there, that is certainly a step in the right direction.

I also get a fair amount of inquiries from people who are - I will use the word - harassed by collection agencies in regard to their student loans and things like that. I must say, in the past couple of months there hasn't been much of it. I know, when you talk about the new agreement with the bank, and things like that, for some of these people, especially at their workplaces, it causes some problems for them. I know you do not have any control over that in regard to passing it out, but is there any way that can be addressed?

MS KELLY: I think I can speak more to this question from an MHA's perspective than a minister because, while I get some e-mails from students - and you know we do help them address it - in many instances I find that working with students to have them go into either the bank, the collection agency, the government, whoever it is they are working with, whoever their source of loans have come from, and which part of their program they are in, it is to go in and advise them that you need to set up a payment plan and adhere to it; and when you cannot adhere to it, you don't just leave it, you go back in and address it.

Most of these, I think every one of them that I have had coming through my office, I have even gone, in some instances, myself, with the students, or asked parents, or found them someone who would go with them. Most of the time, I found it was because they usually have not been able to keep to the schedule they said they would. They have always felt there wasn't help for them when they went. They have always been very pleasantly surprised to find that when they go in and say, here is my budget, and here is why I cannot meet my obligations, that there is help for them and understanding for meeting their obligations; but it is very difficult for young people. They get very scared sometimes when they get these types of calls. They do not realize that: I can be going in and doing something about this, and that there are programs for write-off for interest and everything. Many times there is a lot more help there for them than they realize. Whenever I get calls like that, that is mostly what I have done, and so far they have been successful.

MR. MANNING: Just to reach back to what I brought up earlier concerning that girl - to a different level - in the industrial training division, that falls under your department now?

MS KELLY: Yes.

MR. MANNING: Are the programs that are offered at publicly owned institutions passed through the industrial training division for accreditation? Are all the programs at that school accredited?

MS KELLY: I don't know what you mean. It is through the industrial training division. I think the apprenticeable trades are all under the red shield program, which is an accreditation form in itself; but both the public and private colleges, and the unions in some instances, carry these training programs themselves.

MR. MANNING: Is there a program today at the College of the North Atlantic, or wherever, that I would go into and receive a student loan for, and go through that process to find that it is not accredited?

MS KELLY: Not in the apprenticeable trades, I do not believe. Gerald, maybe you can answer that question?

MR. GALWAY: Mr. Manning, the apprenticeship programs in the various colleges, both private and public, are presently undergoing an accreditation process. Some of these programs have been accredited already, others have not been accredited; however, the fact that they are or are not accredited does not impact in any way on the value of the education received in these programs.

The apprentices, in working their way to journey person status, would write the same examinations from an accredited program as for a non-accredited program. We fully expect that all such programs, as this process unfolds - it has only been in place for a year or so now, and I might add that we are one of few provinces that have taken this on to accredit our programs - we fully expect that most, if not all, programs will go through the accreditation process. But all journey persons, or all apprentices who are seeking journey person status, write the Red Seal examinations, and that is common to all programs, whether they are accredited or non-accredited.

MR. MANNING: Would all programs that are offered at the public institutions in this Province be recognized by your department?

MR. GALWAY: Yes, if a program is being offered in a private or a public institution -

MR. MANNING: The public institutions.

MR. GALWAY: In a public institution, certainly it would be recognized by the apprenticeship board, absolutely.

MR. MANNING: If the program is offered in the public institutions?

MR. GALWAY: Correct, yes.

MR. MANNING: What about in regard to the private institutions?

MR. GALWAY: All programs, again, in private institutions, undergo an approval process which is done through the Department of Youth, Services and Post-Secondary Education.

MR. MANNING: Again, I guess it is up to an employer, but I had a situation - this was a private school - where a graduate from a private school sent a letter, well, put in a resume, to a company. The response he got from the company was that the company did not recognize the private school. I found it really strange. He had the letter, but he would not give me the letter. I wanted it. I guess he was afraid. He was out looking for employment. I said: Give me the letter and I will go to somebody in the department and find out for you.

He had a letter there, where the company wrote him back and said they did not recognize the course that was offered from this private college, for employment.

MR. GALWAY: If this was an apprenticeable trade, there is a separate examination and certification process, which is independent from both a public or a private college. That is administered through the Newfoundland and Labrador Apprenticeship Board. These boards are set up across Canada and they administer common certifying examinations which are common across Canada, so all individuals progressing through an apprenticeable trade would write these examinations and be certified nationally. They could be employed in their trade, either in this Province or in any other province, complete labor mobility through this Red Seal process. If that company that you refer to did not recognize this particular individual's course, and it was an apprenticeable trade, I would find that very unusual because that is certified by an independent body.

MR. MANNING: I think it is just that the company seemed to be pushing towards the public institution, which is the employer's right to do. I am just saying, that is the impression that I got.

Thank you for your cooperation in my questions. I will pass on with a reserved right to debate anything that comes up again, to impose another question, but I am finished for now.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Fabian.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: I have some questions, just a few.

Student aid: out in the Corner Brook area we have the Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, student nurses, the largest campus for the College of the North Atlantic, three private institutions, and the students out our way who are trying to get information on student aid almost find it impossible. There is supposed to be a person at the College of the North Atlantic helping out with student aid but, for whatever reason, that person cannot tap into the actual student aid computer banks to get information. There is supposed to be a person at Memorial University, and that person at Memorial University has our number at the office, and they say: Don't call us; call this person.

I just feel sorry for the students who do not know our number. When we get hold of student aid, we have excellent contact with student aid, they are an excellent service; but, is there any way to improve the service that students can get information? I know students who have been on-line, sat in my office for five hours, and all they get is ring, ring, ring. They can't get a soul. It is just so frustrating for them.

MS KELLY: I think some of that has been improved. We have been able to hire more people, and I think there is more money in the budget this year for taking care of that; but one thing I am very interested in is seeing the fact that the student aid officials at the College of the North Atlantic and at the university are not able to help students. I think that is something that we, as a department, will have to speak to the student aid division and these two institutions about, because that is the whole purpose in having them there. If they are not going to be able to help them at the source, there is not much point.

MR. JOYCE: At the College of the North Atlantic, they cannot tap into the student aid data to update a student on where their student loan is. They cannot do it.

MS KELLY: That is interesting because my understanding is, with students in my own district, that they tap in by using their social insurance number. They can tap into their student aid file at any time from a computer. I do not know if there is any new information, Gerald, that you would like to add to that.

MR. GALWAY: With regard to the information on the student aid, there is an individual employed with student aid who is at the College of the North Atlantic in Corner Brook. It was my understanding, that person certainly attempted to look after all of the college inquiries and, where possible, Sir Wilfred Grenfell College and private college inquires as well.

The student aid main frame system is a system that has been specifically designed so that institutional representatives, whether they are - and we would not have others that were employees of student aid - institutional representatives in the student affairs office or in the registrar's office should be able to (inaudible) - here is a mechanism where individuals can tap into the mainframe system and, if they have the social insurance number of the student, look at the status of the student's file and get up-to-the-minute information. Certainly that is something that we will look into, if that is a problem for Sir Wilfred Grenfell College and for the College of the North Atlantic. I assure you, Mr. Joyce, we will look into that and have it rectified.

I would also add that students can get an update on the status of their student loans by going through our integrated voice response system, and if they have their student SIN number they can get, through the telephone, information on their student loan and they can also inquire on-line through the Internet. We get any number of inquires through the Internet every day, in the order of hundreds, so this may be a specific issue for that particular couple of institutions and we will look in to it.

MR. JOYCE: The situation out in Corner Brook is - I have been dealing with it now for years and I have been bringing this up every year in the last six or seven years - from my understanding, there was no one at the Memorial University campus or Sir Wilfred Grenfell College campus that can actually - there is not a student aid person on staff. There is a student aid officer, but the person does not actually deal with the student aid. We deal with the student aid for Grenfell College. I have been doing it for six, seven or eight years. There may be an officer from your staff on staff at the college, but they do not deal with student aid. They send them to us on a daily basis, five and ten a day, especially come September and again in January.

The problem with it in Corner Brook is, if there is a problem with their student aid, say they missed a bit of information, the College of the North Atlantic can tap in to say, yes, there is a problem, it has been denied, but they cannot find out the reason why it has been denied. What happens then is, that person gets referred back to us, who we call in, and someone personally in student aid in St. John's taps it up and says: Okay, here is the problem. We will have to send out the information.

From my understanding, for the last six or seven years, they cannot tap into it. If there is a problem with student aid - the application or missed information - they just cannot do it. They cannot tap in.-

MS KELLY: In order words, they cannot give advice about where the difficulties are. They can say there is a difficulty, but not say where the difficulty is.

MR. JOYCE: That is all they can tell them, that there is a problem with your student aid.

MS KELLY: We will certainly start looking into that.

MR. JOYCE: This has been ongoing for six, seven or eight years. I know that Judy, out in Corner Brook, deals with the staff from St. John's, and the staff are excellent. It is just that technical glitch. If there is some way you could please look into the student aid problem out in Corner Brook, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Anyone else? Mary.

MS M. HODDER: (Inaudible) on Youth Services, Minister. While I know most of the emphasis is placed on the post-secondary education, I am wondering, under Grants and Subsidies, if there could be an opportunity there for young a person who has not gone on to post-secondary education, shows some promise and had done well in starting off as a young entrepreneur, but now finds himself in financial difficulty. I speak specifically of one case, a young gentleman in my area. To my knowledge, he has completed high school and has not gone further, but he is providing a tremendous service in the area with a youth club, something that the parents have been asking to have in that area.

He has gone through all of the program of talking with crime prevention, the RCMP, and various groups and organizations in town have been a part of it. I have received letters from several parents saying that this is working out quite well. Apparently he was away for a little while, having financial difficulties. This is a young man on his own. His parents are both living, not in my particular area anyway, and I think the family is split up or something. He has been doing really well on his own. It is a good place for the kids to go.

Right now, I am wondering if there is anything under Youth Services, any grants or subsidies, that would be available to him.

MS KELLY: I am not sure about grants or subsidies, but there are certainly programs out there for young entrepreneurs. Through Youth Ventures, I think, there is a program, and there are several others. I believe we had a brief discussion about this case last week, and I asked if you could send me the information.

MS M. HODDER: I sent all of that along, and I am just wondering. You were going to look into it and see if there is anything that would (inaudible).

MS KELLY: I still have not received any information; but as we do, as I have said to you, besides Youth Ventures, we would look and see if there are other programs out there to see what we can do to help. In this instance, I think it is both a community service and a young person who is interested in pursuing an entrepreneurial career, which certainly we are encouraging as much as we can.

MS M. HODDER: We all know, too, of people who never went on to get a higher education but, because they got a little opportunity somewhere along the way, became very successful business people and have provided opportunities for lots of other people along the way. I think this is something -

MS KELLY: That is exactly why the Youth Ventures Program was put in place.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mary.

Minister, I want to thank you and your officials for coming this morning. Officially, I would like to echo Fabian's comments on his statement of how happy he was to see this new department established. I think it is going to be a real benefit to the youth of our Province. I especially congratulate you on your efforts of trying to get some counseling at the high school level. As many of our kids - I guess it is probably the parents' fault, in retrospect - cannot seem to find themselves until much later in life, hopefully this initiative will bring to an earlier revelation of what they want to do, or be in life. It would save a parent a lot of money, for someone who has been through there. I guess we all share that.

MS KELLY: One of the comments that I should have made, I guess, is that I have been meeting with youth groups every weekend now for the past few weeks since the Budget came out. Of course, we have left the 248 teachers in the school system. Students are telling me that they need more guidance counselors in their system, so I have been saying to them: You ought to be going to your school boards now and saying that - even though we have a declining enrolment, we are leaving these extra 250 or so teachers in the system - you ought to be advocating that some of these resources ought to be put towards guidance and career counseling, and I think some of them are actually starting to do that.

CHAIR: Yes, absolutely.

I wish you all well in your upcoming twelve months, for your report back here next year.

MS KELLY: See you next year. Actually, I will see you all this afternoon.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 3.6.01., carried

On motion, Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, total heads, carried.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.