The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

VICE-CHAIR (Manning): Good morning, everybody.

I would like to welcome the minister and her staff, and members of the Committee. For our first order of business, we are going to ask for a motion to adopt the minutes of the Social Services Committee of Thursday, April 18, 2002.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

VICE-CHAIR: The first thing I am going to do is ask the minister to introduce her staff and introduce the members of the Committee before we start, for the record, please.

MS THISTLE: Good morning, Mr. Vice-Chair and staff.

For the record, do you want them to speak directly into the microphone themselves?

VICE-CHAIR: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Okay, we will start probably in the back row with Kathy.

MS DICKS-PEYTON: Kathy Dicks-Peyton, Director of Communications.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and Safety.

MR. CAKE: Gary Cake, Executive Director of Policy and Planning.

MR. JOYCE: George Joyce, Assistant Deputy Minister of Labour.

MR. BLUNDON: Mac Blundon, Manager of Financial Operations.

MR. O'NEILL: Joe O'Neill, Deputy Minister.

VICE-CHAIR: Okay, and the members of the Committee.

MS HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA, Burin-Placentia West.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA, Port de Grave.

MR. MERCER: Bob Mercer, MHA, District of Humber East.

MR. FRENCH: Bob French, MHA, Conception Bay South.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Ross Wiseman, MHA, Trinity North.

VICE-CHAIR: My name is Fabian Manning. I am the MHA for the District of Placentia & St. Mary's and the Vice-Chair of the Committee. Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, is the Chair, and she is delayed. As soon as she gets here, I will be moving.

I am going to call the first subhead but we are going to basically talk about any of the subheads. We will just call the first and that will open the floor to any of the subheads. I am going to call subhead 1.1.01.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Vice-Chair, I wonder if I could have a few moments just to give a few opening remarks?

VICE-CHAIR: Yes, you can. Minister, I am sorry about that. I should have known that but I was mad to get to the questions.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair.

Good morning, everybody, and thank you for getting here on time. I know it has been a rough morning for most people. The people you met around me are my executive in charge of the day-to-day operations of the Department of Labour. I will just give you, briefly, a review of last year.

We just celebrated our first anniversary, in February, of the new Department of Labour. I must say, it has been a busy and successful year. We dedicated our efforts to renewing our relationship and working effectively with business and labour. As members present may be aware, 2001 was a banner year in terms of legislative accomplishments. In 2001, the House of Assembly approved several bills, the first one being the Occupational Health and Safety Act, which will help to prevent accidents in the workplace; amendments to the Workplace, Health, Safety and Compensation Act, to improve the financial viability of the workers' compensation program by placing significant emphasis on the prevention of workplace accidents and facilitating early and safe return to work; amendments to the Labour Relations Act to improve the framework for stable labour relations in the offshore oil and gas fabrication sector; substantial changes to the Labour Standards Act. These changes are designed to modernize the legislation, ensure employers and employees enjoy improved balance between work and family responsibilities, and include the designation of Remembrance Day as a sixth paid public holiday. Of course, that will be coming into effective this year on Remembrance Day.

As Minister of Labour, I am also very pleased to announce in December, 2001, that government has approved increases in the minimum wage. The first increase will take place on May 1 of this year, bringing our minimum wage from $5.50 to $5.75. Again, on November 1, that will then increase to $6.00, which will bring our minimum wage on par with the rest of Atlantic Canada.

I am also pleased to advise that in 2001 the department was successful in obtaining government approval to establish the chairperson of the Labour Relations Board as full-time position. This measure was designed and has had the effect of improving service to employers and employees who have had matters before the Labour Relations Board.

The mandate of the Department of Labour is to foster a positive labour management climate which is conducive to economic growth, competitiveness and prosperity, and to promote and ensure safe and healthy workplaces. The branch has three departments or three branches. With your indulgence, I will briefly describe the key activities of these branches.

The Labour Branch provides mediation services to employers and employees engaged in collective bargaining. There are approximately 500 collective agreements that my department looks after in the run of a year and it covers about 75,000 workers in the Province. Through its Labour Standards Division, the branch also works with non-union employees and employers to ensure adherence to minimum standards of employment as defined under the Labour Standards Act. This includes such areas as vacation pay, termination of employment, and minimum wage, et cetera.

The Labour Relations Board is an independent quasi-judicial board comprised of representatives of employers and employees with an independent chairperson. You might all know Morgan Cooper, who is the chairperson.

The board deals with certification of trade unions, revocation of certification applications, unfair labour practice and requests for imposition of first collective agreements. The Occupational Health and Safety Branch is responsible for the enforcement of the Occupational Health and Safety Act and ensuring that workers and employers are exercising their responsibility to maintain safe and healthy workplaces in the Province. Inspectors with my department routinely visit workplaces to assess the level of compliance with legislation. You might recall that in the budget recently we have gotten approval for just over $1 million to hire new inspectors throughout the Province for this particular branch.

The Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Review Division is a quasi-judicial board responsible for hearing appeals of decisions of the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission. The review division hears applications for appeals on issues such as wage loss benefits, rehabilitation services and benefits, and employers' assessment ratings. In 2001, the review division case load increased by 48 per cent with a total of 646 new applications for review, and held almost 500 hearings throughout our Province.

The Policy and Planning Branch provides policy and planning support and advice to the executives in all branches of the department. This branch supports the development and review of legislation regulations and new approaches to departmental programs and services. This branch is also responsible for co-ordinating our departmental business planning and accountability responsibilities.

As a department, we believe that the outlook for 2002 is very positive. The department has been working very hard to get its message out, of the need for business, labour and government to work constructively together to address workplace issues. We intend to continue to work hard with all of our stakeholders to see that this Province offers a positive environment for investment, economic growth, and safe and rewarding workplaces for families to prosper.

The signals during the first quarter of 2002 have been very positive. Work stoppages are at their lowest level in five years. Fifteen collective agreements covering nearly 8,000 employees have been reached. Collective agreements for eleven fish species have also been successfully negotiated. Lost time claims are down approximately 25 per cent from the first quarter of 2001, and 30 per cent from the same period in 2000, despite an increase in employment.

Many of you will recall that we have had the largest number of people employed in the Province since Confederation but yet, for all that, we have the lowest number of lost time claims. Lost time claims are showing decreases in all major industries, including mining, forestry, construction and fishing. The departmental budget for 2002-2003 is largely consistent with our 2001-2002 budget. On a positive note, as I mentioned before, we will be allotting $1.3 million for additional inspectors in our Occupational Health and Safety Branch. This expansion in staff resources was recommended by the Task Force on the Workers' Compensation System and accepted by government. It will significantly enhance our enforcement and inspection activities. It will contribute to safer workplaces and better protection throughout our Province, and in particular improve our ability to work with employer and employee stakeholders in specific industry sectors. I might add that even this expansion will be cost-recoverable from the Workplace, Health Safety and Compensation Commission. This is why the department's net budget is virtually unchanged from last year.

In a nutshell, that is the mandate of the Department of Labour and, of course, at this time I would welcome any questions that you might have.

Thank you, Mr. Vice -Chair.

VICE-CHAIR: Thank you, Madam Minister.

With that, I will open the floor for questions. Who is on first?

Mr. Wiseman, go ahead.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair.

Minister, just a couple of comments, if I could, on head 1.2.01., in the areas of Transportation and Communications. Last year, the budget was $36,800. The revised budget was $52,800. Could you provide some comment why that increase in the Executive Support area?

MS THISTLE: That is just basically increased travel costs. We took part in a lot of things last year with government business and labour. There was a study mission to Iceland and Ireland and, as a result of that, you might have noticed in the past couple of months we have had a forum where we involved government, business and labour, working together, working on common issues that would enhance the economic activity in this Province.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Under subhead 1.2.02., Administration and Planning, 12. Information Technology, we are looking at a pretty significant increase in the budget this coming year bringing it up to $93,600 over the $24,000 and $27,000 from last year. Can you comment on any new initiatives you might be undertaking with that increase?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

I am going to turn that question over to Gary. He is in Policy and Planning. We are going to be bringing in a new initiative on our Web site, but Gary can tell you about that.

MR. CAKE: Thank you, Minister, and Mr. Wiseman.

For your information, there are two significant initiatives which the department is planning for the coming fiscal year. They both involve putting sources of information, which we currently store in-house, on the department's Web site so the information will be more accessible to our clients.

One is the decisions and orders of the Labour Relations Board, and the second is - we, in the department, have a registry of collective agreements. That also, the intention is to put that information, make that available to clients, on the Web this year.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Speaking of the Labour Relations Board, Minister, I wonder, could we get a couple of comments on head 2.1.02., on page 223. The Transportation and Communications area had a significant increase last year in Budget, $37,200. The revised figure is $78,900.

MS THISTLE: What is happening there, that is pretty unpredictable. It all depends on the number, Mr. Wiseman. That all depends on the number of hearings we receive. Last year we had an enormous amount of hearings that, of course, are never scheduled. You could never determine at the beginning of the year how many hearings you are going to need. That would account for higher board travel to attend these hearings.

VICE-CHAIR: Excuse me just a moment. The Chair has now arrived, so I would just like to vacate the chair.

MADAM CHAIR (Ms Jones): Mr. Wiseman.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Minister, in that same category, 2.1.02., the Professional Services category, that was budgeted last year at $199,200, the actual being $265,000.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

That is related to additional hearings, as well, because that would be per diems paid to the board members who travel to do the hearings, and, of course, that cost would be case driven. We never know how many hearings we are going to have when we start out at the beginning of the year.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: So, Professional Services is the board members' honorariums.

MS THISTLE: That is right. They are the per diems.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: One final question: In the Workplace, Health, Safety and Compensation Review Commission, I was quite pleased with the statistics, minister, suggesting that the number of lost time injuries is certainly down this year. That is encouraging and nice to see. Obviously, we are moving in the right direction.

I just compare Salaries in the Estimates here of $252,000, but in the Departmental Salary Details document that we have, it shows a figure of $165,000. There are five positions there. Can you reconcile the difference between the two figures?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Wiseman, I am going to hand that over to Mr. Blundon. He is the Manager of Financial Operations.

MR. BLUNDON: The difference between the salary details, you said?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Yes, I am looking at a document here, Departmental Salary Details, and it itemizes the positions with each department. I am looking on page 179 of the document and I am comparing it to the information on page 226 of the Estimates document. There is a difference in the figures and I am just wondering why.

MR. BLUNDON: The Salary Details only looks after the permanent cost listing of the department, and the salary that is approved right here would be the permanent cost listing plus the temporary costs, as well as any negotiated increases.

MADAM CHAIR (Jones): Excuse me. If I may, I would like to ask all people to identify themselves before they speak for the record, please.

Thank you.

MR. BLUNDON: Sorry.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: If I understood your answer: The $165,000 in the Salary Details is the permanent staff who are working at the division, and the $252,000 here includes all temporary costs and any other - because there is a $90,000 difference for temporary. For five people on staff, would you have $90,000 of temporary kind of employment activity?

MR. BLUNDON: That could be quite normal.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay. I thought that might have been a fairly, you know, stable environment, the numbers of reviews would have been somewhat stable over the last couple years, using temporary employees verus permanent employees.

MR. BLUNDON: Again, the Salary Detail, as you saw, is just a permanent cost listing. The additional temporary dollars would be required. With a higher caseload, there have to be more additional costs here. What you are seeing is just the difference between the two.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.

MADAM CHAIR: Joe O' Neill. He is sitting in the Premier's seat. If we could have his microphone on, please.

MR. O'NEILL: Mr. Wiseman, I know that at the Worker's Comp. Review Division last year, because of the influx in cases, the number of increasing cases, and the reduction in the amount of time to turn around a decision - because as you recall, in the legislation the turnaround time went from ninety days to sixty days. I know at the review division there was a real push on to clear up, obviously, the backlog that we had and also to try to get their records in order so that they could meet the sixty days. That may have accounted for what would probably be an unusual amount of temporary employees, to get through that backlog. Of course, as the minister indicated in her opening statement, there has been an increase in cases before the review division and that sometimes necessitates that type of temporary staff.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: You have no further questions, Mr. Wiseman?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: No, that will be fine. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. French?

MR. FRENCH: Minister, I would just like to ask a few questions in general before I get into some of the things that I have here. You told us all that there was a number of new inspectors hired. What have they been hired for? What are their jobs? What are they going to do?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. French.

Inspectors: We have roughly eighteen inspectors now that look after 14,500 business establishments throughout the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Does that include government businesses as well?

MS THISTLE: All businesses.

MR. FRENCH: Can I suggest that we have somebody go to the Birch Hills Works Services Depot in Bay Roberts and do a very, very thorough inspection?

MS THISTLE: I would like to report to you this morning, that thorough inspection has already been done. We have a situation there on-

MR. FRENCH: A very dangerous situation.

MS THISTLE: - on air quality. The same thing actually happened in White Hills two or three years ago. It involves work being carried out with improper ventilation.

MR. FRENCH: Has there been corrective action taken in Bay Roberts?

MS THISTLE: Yes. What is happening now: We have actually had people in there from Occupational and Safety. There is a study being done on how to put in the proper system to correct that. I have spoken to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation and funding has been allocated to rectify that problem. We have been in touch with the worker who has been off on Workers Comp. and has made the complaint. Yes, the situation is well in hand and will be rectified.

MR. FRENCH: I am not so sure that the worker is off on Workers' Comp., Minister. I am not so sure if that worker has received any benefits. If he has, it has been in the past thirty days because he was not getting any all along; I can assure you of that.

MS THISTLE: In that situation, was there a complaint initially?

MR. FRENCH: There was a complaint initially from the worker and then that complaint was followed up between, I think, Kim and I. I appreciated Kim's promptness, by the way. I said that to you this morning. I appreciate your promptness in getting back to me with some answers, and I just trust that people in our Province no longer have to go to work under such conditions as these fellows did in Bay Roberts.

Another question I would like to ask, Minister: Do we also send our inspectors into schools to test the quality of air?

MS THISTLE: Yes, we do. We normally do it on sort of an ad hoc basic, I guess. We naturally act on a complaint. Whenever there is a complaint given to our department, we act on it immediately. In the case that you just recently referenced, that was acted upon as soon as we had the complaint. It generally takes a complaint - you know, we have eighteen inspectors for the entire Province and it is a bit hectic. When we had a task force review of all stakeholders, they recognized the shortfall in our inspectors and that is the reason why more money was designated, and within the next few coming months, we will have those extra inspectors in place.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, when can we expect the conclusion to the Birch Hills Depot in Bay Roberts?

MS THISTLE: Well, it is already in hand. Number one, they would have to look and see what kind of a system they are going to install. The funding is allocated and the work will be carried out this summer.

MR. FRENCH: What department will do the work; Works, Services or your department?

MS THISTLE: We are working with Works, Services, but Works, Services will carry out the work.

MR. FRENCH: When the work is finished you will then have your inspectors go back to make sure that the problem that was there has been rectified?

MS THISTLE: Indeed. We are working in constant with Works, Services and Transportation and we have looked at the problem, we know there is a problem. We are working with Works, Services to come up with the proper system to address the problem. Funding has been allocated and the work will be carried out.

MR. FRENCH: Hopefully that will come to a very satisfactory conclusion in a very short period of time.

MS THISTLE: That is our aim.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, I notice that there are some boards that your department appoints or has. There is a Labour Relations Board and on it goes. What other boards would come under your department, whereby the minister would appoint people to them? I know there is Labour Relations. What other boards might there be?

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, we have a few boards. One is the Workplace, Health Safety and Compensation Commission.

MR. FRENCH: Which is headed by?

MS THISTLE: Which is headed by a CEO. Mr. Wayne Trask is the Chairman of the Board.

MR. FRENCH: Is he paid?

MS THISTLE: Is he paid? What is his salary?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Yes, he is. He has a per diem.

MR. FRENCH: Could you tell me what the per diem is?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. O'Neill.

MR. O'NEILL: The Workers' Comp. members, Mr. French, are paid on Level I. I seem to recall - and Kim might be able to help me with that because he sits on the board - it is about $145 a day, for each day they sit. The Level I Board, of course, is the lowest paid board going up to a Level III where the Labour Relations Board members would be paid. I seem to think it is around $145 a day. Whatever the Chair for a Level I board would be paid that would be his rate. I have a list of the boards.

MS THISTLE: There are a couple of other boards too. The other one is the Labour Relations Board Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council and the Radiation Health and Safety Committee. Many of the board members that currently sit on those committees are recommended by their organizations.

MR. FRENCH: Who is chairman of the Labour - did you say the Labour Relations Board?

MS THISTLE: The Labour Relations Board is Morgan Cooper.

MR. FRENCH: That is a paid position?

MS THISTLE: That is a paid position and he was hired April 1, 2001.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Now, what other boards were there?

MS THISTLE: There is the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council.

MR. FRENCH: Who is the chairman of that board?

MS THISTLE: The chairman is Tom Murphy.

MR. FRENCH: Is he paid?

MS THISTLE: Yes, he is paid.

MR. FRENCH: How much is he paid?

MR. O'NEILL: It would be the same level as the Workers' Comp.

MR. FRENCH: He would be paid $145 a day plus expenses?

MR. O'NEILL: If that is what it is for a Level I board, Mr. French. I stand to be corrected on the exact amount, but I think it is $145. It would be the pay for a chair for a Level I board.

MR. FRENCH: So, Minister, where do those names come from? I notice Mr. Murphy is a former minister of, I believe, the department.

MS THISTLE: Those-

MR. FRENCH: They just might, yes. Some of them really make me believe that, Bob.

MS THISTLE: Those names come from various sectors and, of course, we look at qualifications of the individuals, their previous experience and what they could add to a particular board in the way of knowledge. Mr. Murphy's background is health and safety.

MR. FRENCH: I am well aware of that, Minister.

MS THISTLE: For instance, the Radiation Health and Safety Committee: The chairperson is Dr. Nancy Wadden. We can supply you with a list, if you prefer.

MR. FRENCH: I would appreciate getting a list of all boards under your department and the salaries paid to each member of the board.

MS THISTLE: Certainly. We would be pleased to provide you with that information.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: I am looking for a job, yes. Well, I am coming back after the next election, Bob. I am not sure about everybody here, but I will be back.

MADAM CHAIR: Just as a note, Mr. French, the deputy minister has already submitted to the Chair a list of all the members of the committees. I am having it copied for you at the moment.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I appreciate that.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want the salary details for these people.

MADAM CHAIR: That information is not contained in the list that I have. I think the minister has already committed to provide that.

MR. FRENCH: Joe, do you have any idea of, say, how much Tom Murphy would have been paid last year?

MR. O'NEILL: I will ask Kim to speak to that. Kim sits on the Advisory Council for Occupational Health and Safety, and she would have a better idea of how often the board met publically. Three or four meeting, maybe, a couple of days each time. So, I am guessing maybe about $1,200 or something like that, for the total.

MR. FRENCH: For each member?

MR. O'NEILL: Yes. I think the Chair gets a little more.

MS DUNPHY: We meet a couple times a year for two days, maybe two-and-a-half, depending on the agenda items. I believe last year Mr. Murphy attended one meeting and was absent from another. So, he obviously would not have gotten paid for that one. He also sits as a member of the Health and Safety Research Committee because of his position as Chair of the Advisory Council at the Board of Directors of the Commission. So, it is a subcommittee of the Commission and he would be paid for any involvement during any time that he had spent on those committees, as well. I recall, it may have been two or three meetings last year.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, could I ask that I be given a copy of who sits on each one of these boards, and whether they are sub-boards, and if they are sub-boards who sits on those, and I want to know the salaries that they were paid in the previous year, please.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. French.

In keeping with our open and accountable government, I would be most pleased to supply you with that information.

MR. FRENCH: Good. I could get into some other things about some of these appointments but I will not do that here this morning. It is neither the time nor the place for it.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: I am not giving up my job for that, Bob. I don't know about you, but I am not giving up mine.

Anyway, I am very interested in knowing why former ministers get appointed to positions and so on. There is so much comes from the public purse and I just wonder why we have to keep paying the same people all the time.

MS THISTLE: I think, Mr. French, once you see the list you will find out there is a great cross-section of people. Of course, in appointing, we look at a number of things. Firstly, qualifications, gender, geographic regions of our Province, so we will get a good input from all over the Province, and that makes for a very good board for good discussions.

MR. FRENCH: As well, Minister, the Chair of the Workers' Compensation Commission, how much would that individual be paid?

MS THISTLE: I think you already asked that question and that Chair is Mr. Wayne Trask.

MR. FRENCH: No, I am talking about the actual Chairperson of the Board.

MS THISTLE: Oh, you are talking about the CEO?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Okay, you are talking about Miss Ann Marie Hann. Her salary, I am not sure of. According to my deputy minister, I think it is in the range of one thirty.

MR. FRENCH: That is roughly about the same as deputy ministers. I think they are pretty well lumped into that category, are they not?

MS THISTLE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Now we are getting in a good range, Bob.

Minister, you are going to supply me with that over the next few days and I certainly appreciate that. I look forward to getting it and reading it.

I have some other questions which are under certain subheads. Madam Chair, if is okay, I will now move into that.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes, indeed, you can call what heads you need to.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Under 1.1.01., Minister's Office, Purchased Services, there was $2,700 budgeted, we spent $14,000, and this year we are budgeting $2,500. Why the difference between the $2,700 and the $14,000?

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, that was actually the start-up of a new department. Most of it was advertising, trying to get our message out. Previous to last February, we were lumped in with the Environment Branch. Being a new department, we spent a fair amount of advertising trying to set up the new department and get our message out, of who we were and how to contact us and so on.

MR. FRENCH: In 1.1.01., the amount voted for the Minister's Office was $276,900 in the previous year but we went up to $320,200. Why the difference? As well, Minister, I might as well include this: Even though we spent $320,200, this year we only plan to spent $265,100.

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, usually in the first year of a new department it is really a guesstimate because when you set out to start up a new department you are not really sure what the start-up costs are going to be. There is very small variance there and it is all attributed to setting up a new department. That has all been done now and you will not see that in this year's budget.

MR. FRENCH: Yet, we budgeted for this year $60,000 less than we actually spent last year, so why the difference?

MS THISTLE: Actually, this year we are budgeting for $265,000 which is a considerable amount less than last year.

MR. FRENCH: Is there a reason for that, Minister?

MS THISTLE: A lot of that, too, can be attributed to: We have taken a new approach in the Department of Labour. Almost every issue that turns up now, we are meeting with key stakeholders, which would be Newfoundland and Labrador Employers Council, Federation of Labour, all business and labour groups. We found that over the past year that has been very effective in bringing forward new changes to legislation, and it has been a very positive direction.

MR. FRENCH: It is not budgeted for new employees going into the -

MS THISTLE: No, it is not.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you.

Minister, in 1.2.02., Salaries were budgeted at $495,600 the previous year and yet we only spent $488,200, and this year they have gone down again to $433,800. Why the difference?

MS THISTLE: Well, we looked at the fact that we would be having lower temporary costs. We had a couple of positions there that were not filled. There were positions on the book and we never did fill them, so we actually abolished those positions.

MR. FRENCH: Were those positions you would not need, Minister?

MS THISTLE: We did not need them.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you.

Under 1.2.02.03., Transportation and Communications, we budgeted $123,500, we spent $134,700, and this year we have gone back down to $113,900. Why the difference?

MS THISTLE: Well, that would be from last year, postage and shipping and communications costs, but all of us throughout every department in government this year were looking at an enforced savings between 5 per cent and 8 per cent. That is the reason why we figure we can do it this year for a smaller budget.

MR. FRENCH: In 1.2.02.06., Purchased Services, we budgeted $256,700, we spent $247,700, and this year we are budgeting $246,700. Again, why the difference?

MS THISTLE: That would be, we feel, lower printing costs and copier charges. Again, we have been asked to reduce our budgets by 5 per cent and 8 per cent.

MR. FRENCH: Under 1.2.02.07., Property, Furnishings and Equipment, we budgeted $13,000 last year but we spent $46,800, and this year we have gone back to $11,000. Again, why the difference?

MS THISTLE: That was really a department set-up for new costs. We had no provision for any department staff on their own, so that is department set-up cost. It is a one-time expense.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Under 2.1.01.05., Professional Services, $95,000, could you explain to me what the professional services are that we are going to spend this $95,000 on, please?

MS THISTLE: Yes, you might recall that last year we had a great deal of activity with negotiations for fish species. Now most of these have already been negotiated successfully to date this year. We always leave that in there in case we run into difficulty, but I guess it is just a buffer. Last year we had lower fish price negotiations costs.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

Under 2.1.02.01., Salaries, last year we budgeted $270,900, we spent $349,600, and this year we are going to spend $384,500. Would this be where the new inspectors are? Would that be the reason for the increase in salaries here?

MS THISTLE: That, Mr. French, was our first time hiring a full-time Chair of the Labour Relations Board, Mr. Morgan Cooper.

MR. FRENCH: So his salary is in that $384,500?

MS THISTLE: His salary is in there, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Under 3.1.01., Occupational Health and Safety Inspections, Salaries in the previous year were $1,785,400. This year we have gone to $2,825,600. Why the difference, and who have we hired new in this particular category?

MS THISTLE: I guess these are going to be the new inspectors that we are talking about. There have been some vacant positions and these will be the new inspectors that I just alluded to in the $1.3 million, that we will be hiring throughout this year.

MR. FRENCH: Could you tell me, Minister, roughly what types of salaries these new inspectors will be paid; and, exactly, they are inspectors for what? Is it just occupational health and safety or is it air quality, you know? What type of work will these individuals do?

MS THISTLE: These inspectors will be inspectors for all kinds of inspections - air quality - anything that, in fact, affects the workplace, but I am going to turn your question over now to Kim Dunphy and she can tell you what the salary ranges would be for these people.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MS DUNPHY: The positions that we have requested are a combination of officer positions, senior officer type positions, and I am not exactly sure of the salary range, but they are an Officer III position which would probably be in the high forties. We have asked for six Officer III positions. These officers will be aligned by industry sector, so it would be an Officer III, a senior officer for forestry, fishing, manufacturing, mining, and those types of things.

MR. FRENCH: Kim, could you tell me, please - I don't mean to interrupt you - what type qualifications would these people have to have?

MS DUNPHY: For the senior positions, we will be looking for some very highly-qualified people. Normally what we would look for in an advertisement type scenario would be: some sort of diploma, training specifically in health and safety. There are certificate programs that are available as well in safety engineering technology. So, we would be looking for, in a senior type position, a combination of the actual education plus experience, work experience, in the field of health and safety or in a particular industry.

MR. FRENCH: Did I understand you correctly to say these salaries would be in the $40,000 to $50,000 range?

MS DUNPHY: The senior positions would be around $47,000 or $48,000.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

In the same category, Minister, it says Transportation and Communication. Last year we budgeted $389,600, and this year we are going to spend $561,800. Can you tell me what that is for?

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, I guess that follows on the heels of the question you just asked. With eighteen inspectors, our budget would have been lower last year but hiring on thirteen more full-time and two part-time, naturally, it will involve more travel and that is the reason why that cost will go up. Because they do not sit in their offices; they actually go out to the workplaces and do the inspections.

In fact, if you look in our department you will hardly see any of these people. They have a workstation and they are gone.

MR. FRENCH: My guess for Supplies, it would be basically the same answer?

MS THISTLE: That is correct.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services, what type services are we talking about here? We budgeted $210,000 last year, we only spent $87,400, and this year we have gone back up to $210,000.

MS THISTLE: The reason we put in $210,000 is that you never know what kind of a study might come up. You may recall that we had to do a study on crab asthma, the Labrador West dust study, just to name a couple. These are the types of studies that come up. We did one on the Marystown Shipyard, diving specialists and so on. You never know what kind of a study is going to be asked of this department to undertake throughout the year so we do put that amount in just to cover off in case we need it.

MR. FRENCH: The study you say you did at Marystown Shipyard, would that have anything to do with the environmental thing that is going to happen down there?

MS THISTLE: The study at the Marystown Shipyard was to determine whether or not the employees who had worked there in the past had any connection to the cancer that was reported to be prevalent in that particular area. They wanted to know if there were any correlation between the work at the shipyard and the actual health of the workers who worked there.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Purchased Services, what does that include, Minister? We budgeted $143,600, we only spent $85,100 and this year we are gone back to $231,500.

MS THISTLE: That would be, last year there was lower advertising, printing, rental and so on. That fluctuates from year to year. It depends on what is required to do in the department. We do put in that budget in case something might turn up.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

As well, on the same line, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, we are going to spend $73,000. What are we going to spend that on?

MS THISTLE: That line there would be for maintenance and so on. In fact, last year we wanted to replace a vehicle in Labrador and we delayed that last year. There is quite a possibility that we will probably do it this year.

MR. FRENCH: In Information Technology, we budgeted $94,300. What are we going to spend that on?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Gary Cake just mentioned that we are hoping to create a new Web site to get a lot of the information to our clients through the Web site. Now, if somebody wants a copy of a collective agreement, what you have to do it manually photocopy and produce that, and now that will be available on the Web site in the coming months.

MR. FRENCH: I do not really have any questions. I am just glad to see that we are still providing assistance to miners who worked at the St. Lawrence mine. You wouldn't have a rough idea, would you, of how many people would still be - I am not saying anything against it. I am just wondering, how many people are we presently assisting under this particular program? I think it is a good program.

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, I believe that number, of course, is reducing all the time but I believe there are probably 120 now on that list and that amount is paid solely by government.

MR. FRENCH: It is paid solely by government?

MS THISTLE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Under 3.2.02., Minister, I am just wondering, Grants and Subsidies, what are they for? Who can apply for these grants? Who gets them?

MS THISTLE: If you would just give me a moment, Mr. French. I have a list. We provide grants and subsidies to a number of associations to get the message on safety out. Some of them are: Newfoundland and Labrador Industrial Health and Safety Association; Canadian Society of Safety Engineering; St. John Ambulance; Newfoundland and Labrador Safety Council; Canadian Standards Association; Newfoundland and Labrador Employers' Council; Lung Association of Newfoundland and Labrador; NAOSH; Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Safety Association; Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour; Safety Net; Centre for Applied Health Research, and a few others. It is basically to get the message of safety out throughout the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Minister.

Under 4.1.01., the amount voted was $544,200 last year, and now we are gone to $791,400. Information Technology is $70,000.

MS THISTLE: Mr. French, that figure there is a higher caseload. As you know, almost everything in workers' compensation is appealable. Whenever we have an appeal, it has to be dealt, and that would be due to a number of extra appeals. Whenever there is an appeal, we act upon it and that is the reason why we put that extra money there in the budget to take care of it.

MR. FRENCH: Could I get a copy, Minister, of exactly what we paid for under these Professional Services? Because, you know, I deal an awful lot with workers' compensation, as you are certainly well aware, as every MHA in this House does. I know the time that I put into doing this, not being an expert in that field, but, I guess, slowly but surely, maybe achieving that particular status - you know, I watched where a lady, who was injured at work last December, won her appeal and went to Workers' Compensation and they sent her a cheque. She already had her bank account closed out. I spoke on this, if you remember, one day in the House of Assembly. They forced her out of her apartment. She had to go on social assistance. She received a cheque for in excess of $7,000. Only, on the day that she got the cheque she did not have a bank account to deposit it in. So, she got a phone call from the worker to return the cheque; of course, which had already happened.

I am wondering sometimes could we maybe not save ourselves money. Every decision that Eric Gullage makes or every time certain MHAs appear at hearings, does an alarm go off and somebody say: That is that son of a gun in here again. We have lost another case or we have won another case. To me, in Workers' Compensation you never win. There is no such thing as you won your case. While you may have helped a worker achieve some more money - and that is great and I take great pride in that - at the end of the day, the suffering that some of these poor souls have to do.

Minister, I have made it a point to attend the last two meetings of the Injured Workers' Association of this Province. I would love, sometime, for some of these people who are making decisions that deal with people's lives to attend a meeting just to see that this is not hogwash and it is not foolishness. I watch young ladies come in and sit down for maybe ten minutes and then the next thing they are over stood up by a heater. When the break comes, I have gone up to these individuals and said: Goodness, I noticed you did not sit for very long. No, Bob boy, I can't. What do you mean you can't? I can't sit for very long because of my back or because of my neck.

I just wondered, if maybe somehow we could get through to Worker's Compensation to say that people have a right to make a living. I am not saying every case is justified, because every case is not justified. I do not always go to Workers' Compensation with every case I get. There are times I have often said to people: Boy listen, you do not have the medical evidence to prove to me what you are saying and without it I am not going in and making a fool of myself. But, I just wish that we could educate people to the fact that we do have injured workers in this Province and some of them suffer a great deal. I wonder how we can convey that message.

I have met with Ann Marie Hann, a very fine lady, and I was very well treated, as a matter of fact, while I was there. I just wonder if there wouldn't be some way of conveying these feelings to some of the people who sit behind a desk and make decisions. You know, there are people out there who are injured. Some of these people, you know, we keep shuffling them off.

I say a lawyer write a letter concerning this lady I spoke about wanting her appeal to be reheard. Reheard for what? I mean, where did the lawyer get her doctor training, which is a letter which I wrote to Worker's Compensation. What gives somebody the right to make an individual - and in this case, God love her, she suffered greatly. She had things bought for family members for Christmas on layaway and when her cheque got cancelled she actually had to call back and say to the department store: Look, I can't afford to buy it, go ahead and sell it. Yet it took until February into this year for this lady to receive any money, which to me is totally wrong. The anguish that this lady went through - when I called her and told her that I finally had an answer and the answer was suitable to her and it was an answer whereby she was going to receive some money, if you could have only heard the lady on the other end of my phone crying with the fact that finally she was going to get some money. Her first words were: Now, Mr. French, I realize I have to take some of this money and pay back social services; which she did. I just wonder, should we really put people through that. I am sure every MHA in this House - there are forty-eight of us - has stories to tell on Worker's Compensation. God knows I have a hundred of them.

I just wonder if we could not educate people. Maybe, Kim, at one of your next board meetings you could raise that issue and say, maybe it is time. While something is not in the act, personal feelings should not enter that, but there are personal feelings, there are people who suffer and there are people out there today, injured workers in this Province, who are still suffering. The run around that they get, I do not think it is fair. I would ask you, Minister, to have somebody in your department - maybe Kim because she sits on that board - kind of investigate to see if there could not be some feelings held for people who suffer and suffer a great deal.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. French.

I am an MHA still and proud of it, and I have worked on many Worker's Compensation cases -

MR. FRENCH: Every one of us in here has.

MS THISTLE: - like all of us here in this House of Assembly. It is certainly a very sensitive issue when you deal with an injured worker, the trauma and so on that they are going through.

I think that a lot of the changes that have taken place over the past year will alleviate some of the delays and so on. Worker's Compensation did a survey recently and the client satisfaction was somewhere in the vicinity of 80 per cent. I know that the CEO and the Chairman of the Board and all board members are promoting a service friendly interaction between the staff and the client. They are dealing with, I guess, the most sensitive issues that anyone could. Anyone that is off work and a claim not approved, naturally they are going through a pretty rough time. They are sensitive to the feelings of the injured worker. I myself have met with the Injured Workers Association and the staff, in my opinion, from what I am hearing, do an admirable job in dealing with those situations.

A lot of the changes that are happening this year, like early and safe return to work, there is more of an onus on an employer to work with an employee to actually get them back to work in a cooperative spirit. I think you will see a great improvement in that area. Also now, there is employee and employer safety training happening right throughout the Province to prevent injuries initially. Even last year we were reporting less claims than the previous year. Of course, the Workers' Compensation Commission is basically just an insurance plan to be there for the worker in case of need. Right now they are going through a financial disaster, I suppose. They are in debt about $200 million and they have to recover that. They are recovering that right now by assessing employers higher than they were in the past with the hope that there will be a new safety initiative. Those figures will turn around in the next five years and we will have a sustainable Workers' Compensation for all workers in the Province.

I understand you, as representing your constituents. All of us do that. If there is ever a problem, that you feel that a client is not getting proper attention, please bring it to our attention. There may be some slipping through the cracks but for the most part I am hearing that clients are generally pleased with the Workers' Compensation system. I am hoping that even in the future we will have a system that will be further improved and will be there for workers in the future.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Minister.

That is it for me, Madam Chairperson.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. French.

Mr. Manning, do you have some questions?

MR. MANNING: Just a couple of questions, Minister.

On the inspections at the schools for air quality, or whatever the case may be, are those reports public? If an inspector goes into a school and does an inspection on air quality and other inspections, are those inspection reports public?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Manning.

I am going to turn your question over to Kim Dunphy. She is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Occupational Health and Safety and she will be able to answer that question for you.

MS DUNPHY: When our staff do inspections in any workplace, if there are orders issued, and whether there are orders issued or not, there is an inspection report left at the workplace. So, it is public in a sense that it is with the workplace parties. It would be with the safety committee and the employer, because obviously they are the ones who have to follow through to see that it is complied with. With respect to us providing it to third parties it has not been our policy to release that to third parties.

MR. MANNING:You say the workplace - when you go into a school, when an inspection is done of a school, a copy of that inspection is left with the school?

MS DUNPHY: It is left with the school and if there is a safety committee present - there would be a safety committee - the employer is directed through us to provide a copy to the safety committee or our staff will provide it directly to the safety committee. The safety committee, at any workplace, would be a representative of management and representatives of the workers.

MR. MANNING: That has always been done?

MS DUNPHY: Always. Whenever we do an inspection in any workplace, there is information, documentation, left at the workplace in terms of what we observed, who we met with, what our discussions were, and any orders issued. Whether it was a good situation or something that needed correcting, that type of information is documented, it is printed out at the workplace and is signed off as accepted by a workplace party, generally somebody in management. Also copies are provided to a worker representative, if there is one appointed or the safety committee.

MR. MANNING: If there is an order issued, is there a certain time for your department to follow up on that? Who is the onus on to do the followup, the administration of the school? I am particularly talking about a school here.

MS DUNPHY: Okay.

MR. MANNING: Is the onus on the administration of the school to ensure the followup or is the onus on your department?

MS DUNPHY: I guess it is joint. Our role is to conduct an inspection to determine the level of compliance. If there are things that need to be done, then we would point that out to the operator, owner, school principal, or whoever the person is in charge there, and we will direct them to take whatever actions are necessary within a specified period. That specified period could be one day, ten days or thirty days. It depends on what the issue is.

MR. MANNING: It depends on the level, yes.

MS DUNPHY: The responsibility then is very much on the shoulders of the person who has been directed to comply with that, to follow it through, but our staff also does followups to make sure that it has actually been done. We will direct people, once it has been complied with, to send documentation back to the department that they have done it. Also our staff, as a matter of course, would go out and follow up on the orders that they have issued.

MR. MANNING: I have a particular situation in my own district at the Laval High School in Placentia where a classroom was basically turned down. I call it turned down. I do not know what the proper lingo is. There was some work carried out, but I visited the school about a month ago and that particular classroom is not available to the students and the smell in there is incredible. They came in and did some repairs, but to me - I am not an inspector, and I do not have the qualifications to be one, but I am a human being with a sense of smell, and you know when you walk into this classroom there is a problem.

Who in your department, in relation to the line of command - I am just trying to find out the details, because that has been going on for a couple of years.

MS DUNPHY: Whether it was one of our officers - it could have been someone from the Department of Health, it could have been someone from the school board itself who had gone in, or it could have been someone from Works and Services who had gone in. So, it may not necessarily have been someone from our department. It could have been any number of those people.

MR. MANNING: This may not be a fair question but, if the inspection was done by either other department, is the same process used, as with your department, that there is something left at the school, do you know?

MS DUNPHY: I used to work with the Department of Health, so I know generally how things are done. I do not think it is as necessarily structured as what we would have.

MR. MANNING: The Assistant Deputy Minister, I believe, touched on professional services carried out for a study into the possibility of cancer at the Marystown Shipyard. I understand you go into workplaces. Is it your department, or would it be the Department of Health, that would be responsible for the province-wide study or a particular study into this?

Over the past number of years - and I guess it is in many different parts of the Province - in my district there has been a tremendous amount of cancer. I lost my own sister to breast cancer two years ago. Everybody is trying to find the reason why. Lately I have been receiving correspondence and calls concerning transformers on poles. I am sure you may have heard some of that on the open line shows over the past couple of weeks. I am just wondering: Are there studies being done? Would your department be the department to do that or would it be some other department, and, if so, has any work been done it? Not that particular instance, but the overall - when you mentioned the cancer study in Marystown, I am just wondering to what extent you do that? That is at the workplace. I am just wondering in general terms.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Manning.

The studies that take place through our department are workplace related, but studies like the one you are referring to - in fact, I heard it recently in the media about transformers, in fact, in Norris Arm - I think that was requested through the Department of Health.

MR. MANNING: Okay. But all your inspections or studies are done at workplaces?

MS THISTLE: Yes, they are.

MR. MANNING: Minister, is there anybody on - I do not know, maybe it is covered under Professional Services - contract; individuals or companies on contract to your department?

MS THISTLE: Are you asking are any retained on a regular basis?

MR. MANNING: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Not to my knowledge. Are they?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: To my knowledge, there are none on retainers. When an issue arises, then we go out to look for expertise in different areas.

MR. MANNING: In different areas, okay. That would be covered under Professional Services in the Estimates?

MS THISTLE: Yes, it would be.

MR. MANNING: Say, for example, if you need $50,000 or more to do a specified contract, would they come under Professional Services?

MS THISTLE: Yes. Many times we are investigating a fatality and we need expertise in that particular area.

MR. MANNING: I would understand that.

MS THISTLE: So, that is the reason why we go out and then look for people expert in their field. That would come under Professional Services.

MR. MANNING: That is all for me, Minister.

Thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Manning.

Ms. Hodder.

MS M. HODDER: I was just wondering, Minister: Those health officials or health inspectors, where will they be based? Will they all be based here in St. John's or in different areas of the Province?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Ms Hodder.

Those inspectors will be actually placed throughout the Province and Labrador depending on the sector. It has been identified that we need certain inspectors in different sectors of our Province, and, yes, they will be province-wide.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I think Mr. Wiseman has one final question before we conclude.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Just for information: I noticed one of your committees radiates the Health and Safety Committee. Is there a piece of legislation that comes under the Department of Labour governing and regulating imaging services and X-ray services?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

Yes, there is, in fact, a Radiation Health and Safety Act in legislation.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Does that deal specifically with issues around safety and the technical aspects of equipment, or does that also deal with location and where those units could in fact be located? Like, for example, if I wanted to buy one and went out tomorrow and bought one, does that legislation govern whether or not I can buy one and actually plug it in and use it?

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

I am going to hand that question over to Ms Kim Dunphy.

MS DUNPHY: We have inspectors who would - there is a requirement to license that equipment so there would be a process that you would have to go through in order to operate that piece of equipment. It would have to be licensed and the legislation is where that requirement is located.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: The conditions for that licence would be covered off in the regulations that would flow from that legislation, I assume.

MS DUNPHY: That is correct.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Within those regulations, are there restrictions as to where they may be located and who can actually have one and operate it?

MS DUNPHY: I think the restrictions would be, there would be certain standards or requirements for you. If you had one, there would have to be certain safety requirements for there to be in place in terms of the lining of the walls, and I guess physically how it was set up. There is also, I guess, qualification requirements in terms of who could operate it.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I guess what I am very specifically trying to find out is, within the legislation and the following regulations, if it defines very specifically that those units can only be situated in a hospital setting or if by virtue of the qualifications necessary - I am thinking particularly of having a radiologist - that would in fact help define where it is located.

MS DUNPHY: I do not think the legislation would limit it to where it was located. It would be how it was installed and the protection around it.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay.

MS DUNPHY: For example, veterinary clinics have radiation equipment, dental offices, and, I think, chiropractic, so there is a whole host of scenarios where people would be licensed to be able to operate this type of equipment and there would be standards applied for the installation of that equipment to protect the workers in and around it.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: What was the name of the legislation again? Could you repeat that for me?

MS DUNPHY: The Radiation Health and Safety Act and subordinate legislation.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: And the regulations -

MS DUNPHY: I think it is the same thing, Radiation Health and Safety Regulations.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay.

Thank you very much. That is all, Minister.

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Wiseman.

I would like to thank the minister this morning, and her officials, for the responses you have given here. They have been very factual and very much to the point. We really appreciate that. I would also like to thank the Committee for their participation this morning, and my co-Chair, Mr. Manning, for filling in for me this morning on such short notice. I really do appreciate that.

The next meeting of the Estimates Committee for Social Services will be at 11:00 a.m. on Monday, where we will conclude the Estimates for the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

At this time I would entertain a motion to adjourn, please.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) the subheads.

MADAM CHAIR: Would you like for me to do that?

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01. to 4.1.01., inclusive.

MADAM CHAIR: Excuse me for just a moment. In our haste to depart, I would like to ask for a motion to adopt the Estimates for 1.1.01. through 4.1.01. for the Department of Labour, please.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Labour, total heads, carried.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.