The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

MADAM CHAIR (Kelly): Order, please!

For the record, my name is Sandra Kelly and this is the Estimates Committee for the Department of Human Resources and Employment.

We will get started for the evening, because I know these meetings tend to go on sometimes a little overtime, so if we get started maybe we will get through everything some time between now and 9 o'clock tomorrow morning before the other Committee meeting starts.

Seeing that this morning, as I chaired this session, they had to send up a note letting us know that we need to be asking to speak through the Chair because downstairs in the recording studio they are not able to tell sometimes who is speaking, to get the mike turned on in time to hear the person introduced themselves, I would appreciate if you would do your remarks through the Chair. That will give the person downstairs time to get your microphone on, and, when you start to speak, say your name first.

I will start by asking the Committee to introduce themselves. As I have said, my name is Sandra Kelly and I am the Chair. Vice-Chair?

MR. MANNING: Fabian Manning, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's, Vice-Chair.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, MHA for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Ross Wiseman, MHA for Trinity North.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Kevin Alyward, MHA for St. George's-Stephenville East.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, very much.

Without any further ado we will pass it over to the minister and ask him to introduce his officials and to move right on into his remarks.

Mr. Wiseman.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My name is Ralph Wiseman, MHA for Topsail district, Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

With me tonight are: my Deputy Minister, Vivian Randell; my Assistant Deputy Minister, David Roberts, who is with Corporate Services in the department; Wayne Penney, Assistant Deputy Minister of Policy and Planning; Jennifer Jeans, Assistant Deputy Minister of Program Delivery; and Simon Lono, Director of Public Relations.

I just want to make a few comments this evening. I want to begin by saying that it is certainly a pleasure to be here, to have this opportunity to appear before the Committee of the House and provide my colleagues with an overview of the programs and services of my department as outlined in the proposed expenditures for the fiscal year 2003-2004.

I recently marked my first anniversary as Minister of Human Resources and Employment, and I would like to say that this year has been a very exciting and productive one. I would like to take a few moments to share some of our major accomplishments of the past year and the important role these initiatives will play in the year to come.

The Department of Human Resources and Employment was established in 1997 to place greater emphasis on assisting people to prepare for, find and maintain employment, in addition to ensuring dignified income support for those in need.

This past year the department took major steps forward in fulfilling this mandate as we continue to work collaboratively with our partners to provide people with income and employment supports.

The most important milestone in the department was the passage of the Income and Employment Support Act by the House of Assembly this past December. This new act replaces the outdated Social Assistance Act, which has not been reviewed in its entirety since 1977.

For the first half of 2002, my department led a consultation process which guided the department as we worked to draft the new legislation. In August, 2002, we released the findings of these consultations with the document, the Report of a Consultation on Social Assistance Act. These findings proved to be a great resource in drafting the new legislation. This act reflects my department's commitment to empowering our clients by outlining formally the rights and responsibilities of clients as well as the accountability of government in providing services.

Components such as preamble and service principle provision for income support rate review and regular reviews of the legislation itself ensures that our income support and employment programs remain consistent with the changing needs and priorities of the people we serve. A provision for appeal of eligibility for employment services for individuals has been added, along with the appropriate timelines for the hearing of internal reviews and appeals.

With the Appeals Division now incorporated into the act, clients will now have to refer to one legislative source when there is a disagreement over a departmental decision. This is just a small sampling of some of the major components of the act. The regulations and policies to support this act are currently being developed and the act is expected to be proclaimed in the fall of 2003.

Along with the new Income and Employment Support Act, other initiatives in the past year demonstrate our priority of providing dignified and accessible supports to those in need. We continue to address the needs and concerns of individuals who identify themselves as victims of violence. We have made significant progress in implementing the recommendations of the working group for victims of violence which were brought to the department in February of 2002. These measures help the income support program be more responsive to their unique and sometimes urgent need.

Our commitment to those people living with a disability continues: the supported employment programs, the community-based employment assistance program that provides the supports necessary to allow adults with developmental disabilities to participate in employment. The 2002-2003 budget for this program was $3.12 million. To respond to increasing demand on the program last year, we transferred additional monies in the amount of $300,000. We will maintain this program's budget at the new funding level for the next fiscal year.

Emphasis on the well-being of our Province's children and families remain our commitment, and our partnership with the federal government in the National Child Benefit program continues to improve incomes for low-income families. Introduced in 1999, the Newfoundland and Labrador Child Benefit is a provincial child benefit which is combined with the Canada Child Tax Benefit provided to low-income families. For the past two years this government has reinvested savings resulted from demographic changes in this program back into the Newfoundland and Labrador Child Benefits. For the coming year, $215,000 was available and this has been reinvested into a small increase in the rate structure. When combined with the increase in the federal child benefits, families in the Province will receive a combined a child benefit of approximately $2,848 annually for the first child effective July 1, 2003. For example, a low-income family with two children received a total of $2,040 annually in 1997 in child benefits. By July of 2003, this family will now be entitled to $5,583 on an annual basis.

This budget also provides for an allocation of $500,000 to the Kids Eat Smart Foundation. This funding will assist in starting the sustaining breakfast, lunch and snack programs in schools and community centres throughout our Province. Children need nutritious food to be healthy, in order to grow and learn. I hope this investment in our children will encourage communities and private corporations to continue to work together to help ensure that every child in our Province attends school well nourished and ready to learn.

We have also made a commitment for this coming fiscal year to add five social worker positions to the current fifteen social workers in the Province delivering the support application program. This will help ensure the required social work supports are available to parents in their effort to secure spousal or child support. Clients receiving child support orders are ultimately less reliant on income support and are in a better position to exit the income support program for employment.

In the past few years, Human Resources and Employment has been redesigning both its income support and employment and career services to help people find and maintain employment. In 2002-2003 over 5,000 clients accessed the employment and career services. In addition, 2,500 income support clients eligible for HRDC programs were referred for services. These services have helped many clients move towards their goal of greater self-reliance.

As we move further into 2003, we are very excited about the first release of the department's new computerized pay system. This system is nearing completion and will be piloted this summer on the West Coast of the Province. Implementation in other parts of the Province will occur after evaluation of the pilot. The new system will enable the department to implement new service delivery models that will result in more efficient ways of delivering services, more consistency in services across the Province, and better integration of employment services to assess our clients.

This past year our social assistance caseload continued to decline, although at a slower rate. As members no doubt recall, the budget for last fiscal year was exceeded due to the slow decline. However, looking ahead to the next fiscal year, I am confident this downward trend will continue. Consequently, the lower caseload allotted for 2003-2004 which remains budgeted at the level originally established for 2002-2003 will be achieved.

This past year has been one filled with progressive initiatives that will help us accomplish our goals of ensuring that economic and social needs of low-income families and individuals in Newfoundland and Labrador are met.

I believe that this department is on a productive path and that 2002-2003 will see more work that will have a positive impact on the people of our Province.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much.

We can start on the Estimates now.

Mr. Vice-Chair, do you want to lead off?

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the minister for his Ministerial Statement. I am going to go through some on-line figures first just to get some clarification on some things. I am sure my colleagues will want some questions later.

In the Minister's Office under 1.1.01., page 193 of the Estimates, we have Salaries budgeted last year $254,900, revised last year is $242,600 and estimated this year at $268,100. I will combine two questions here. Last year, we had Transportation and Communications, $50,000 budgeted, utilized $31,500, again at a $50,000 budget for this year. Can you elaborate on that somewhat, the changes there?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Last year, as you know, I was a very prudent minister. I did not spend my money in Transportation and Communications that was allotted. In some cases there were meetings on the mainland with Social Services Ministers that, due to the House being open or one thing or another, we just did not use it. The salary part, you will see that $254,900 was budgeted and $242,000 was the revised. There was a position in the minister's office that was not filled. The fact of the matter is that some of the monies were used to hire students actually.

MR. MANNING: Okay, hire students in the minister's office?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, for summer employment.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We did not fill the position that was there to be filled.

MR. MANNING: Is there anybody at the present time on contract in your office in the department there?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Anybody on contract to me?

MR. MANNING: Well, within your office.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Not on contract to me, not that I am aware of.

MR. MANNING: Within your office or within your executive support office.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Only my executive assistant, my constituency secretary and my communications director.

MR. MANNING: Under salary details there is a temporary employee, Minister's Office, $40,500. Who would that be?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I do not know. What are you talking about, last year? Just let me know what you are talking about because last year there was a position in the minister's office that was not filled. That position still exists this year.

MR. MANNING: Summary of 2003-04 Salary Funding by Activity. Page 149 of the Salary Details. Temporary & Other Employees. There is an allotment there for $40,500. I was just wondering - under Temporary & Other Employees.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The only answer I can give you is there was a position there last year that was not filled.

MR. MANNING: Why would you have an allotment there for this year?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Why? The position is still there. I have not made any decision at this particular point whether I am going to fill it or not.

MR. MANNING: I do not know if you are following me. The permanent employees for your department, for this year, is $222,183 and there is a temporary position of $40,500.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: In the Minister's Office?

MR. MANNING: Yes.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Well that is what I am saying. I have an executive assistant, a constituency secretary, and the Director of Public Relations is charged to my office, and there is another position that has not been filled.

MR. MANNING: What is that position? You have your executive assistant, you have your public relations, you have your departmental secretary, you have your own district secretary, so what position would that be for? What would that allotment of $40,500 be for?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: It could be ministerial assistant.

MR. MANNING: You just listed off what you are entitled to as a minister.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, I just listed off what I have and what was budgeted for last year.

MR. MANNING: That is what you are entitled to as a minister. You are entitled to four positions in your office as a minister.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is what I keep saying. We have a vacant position.

MR. MANNING: Yes, I want to know what the position is. As a minister you have four positions.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, I only have three.

There was a position assigned because of the workload in the minister's office last year. It would be a special assistant because of the workload that the minister's office had been experiencing previously to my going in. The workload still exists by the way, that is why the position has not been filled.

MR. MANNING: If the workload still exists, and you are saying the position was not filled - it was not filled last year and the workload still exists, you must be anticipating -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Maybe. I have not decided whether I am or not.

MR. MANNING: So you have a $40,500 allotment here for a temporary employee, for an assistant, but you do not know what the assistant is going to do.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Oh, I know what he will do if I hire one. He will relieve some of the workload in the minister's office.

I guess you do not understand me being prudent.

MR. HEDDERSON: That's what I keep saying.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you, Tom.

MR. MANNING: What I do not understand is the allotment of funding for a temporary employee when you have the permanent employees in place.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: If it makes you feel better, Mr. Vice-Chair, I will fill it tomorrow. I do not have anybody in mind, but I am reluctant to do it. As I said, we got by last year, but if you are insisting that I fill it then I would revisit. I have not visited yet this year.

MR. MANNING: No, we will keep an eye on it, if you fill it.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I will make a note to inform you.

MR. MANNING: I appreciate that. Then when I ask a question maybe I am going to be answered before I ask, then I will not have to bother.

Follow on down to 1.2.01., Executive Support. The Budget estimate last year of $496,700, to Revised of $474,800, but this year looking for an increase of $523,200.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, that is an increase in the salary increase.

MR. MANNING: How come last year we went from $496,000 down to $474,000, $25,000 give or take?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: There was a vacant secretarial position there that wasn't filled. Again, very prudent.

MR. MANNING: Boy, I am telling you, you are going to shape this place up.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We have been.

MR. MANNING: Too bad you don't rub off on some of your colleagues.

Anyway, 1.2.02, Administrative Support: Last year's budget was $2.2 million - I will just round these off - increased by, give or take, $500,000, half a million dollars last year, back down this year, I shouldn't say back down over the budgeted, but this year's estimate is $2,390,600.

Could you elaborate on that one somewhat, please?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: There is a transitional fund, I think, when the two departments were divided that exists there.

WITNESS: A computer pay system.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, for a computer pay system. There was a discrepancy, I guess, in the amount that was funded.

MR. MANNING: Would that be the same situation in 1.2.03, Program Development and Planning?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, it falls under the same line.

MR. MANNING: Over on page 195, 2.1.01, Client Services: You are anticipating around a $700,000 increase for this year. Over last year it was even more than that, it was up around $1 million extra on salaries for Client Services.

Could you explain that, please?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is five new positions.

MR. MANNING: What are those positions, Mr. Minister?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I think I outlined it in my remarks where -

MR. MANNING: Okay, they are added on to the fifteen.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Support enforcement and salary increases in the department.

MR. MANNING: So, five of these positions are support enforcement, are they?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. MANNING: Under Information Technology, I realized last year when we did the estimates there was a fair amount of computer technology being installed in the department. Last year it was $2.8 million, give or take. This year it is down to less than $2 million.

Is that because most of this work has been done?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, most of the work has been completed. We are getting less work being done now, because it is nearly completion.

MR. MANNING: On page 196, under 3.1.03., Mother/Baby Nutrition Supplement, there was $400,000 budgeted, $250,00 used and $400,000 budgeted again this year - $150,000 less. Could you explain that a little bit for me? I have another follow-up question after that.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is -

MR. MANNING: That is 3.1.03.09. Allowances and Assistance.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: You want to know the $150,000 discrepancy.

MR. MANNING: Yes.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: There was less take-up last year.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

How are people made aware? Is there an advertising campaign? How are people made aware of that program through the department? How do you promote the program, I should say?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I will get Deputy Minister Randell to answer that for you.

MADAM CHAIR: Ms Randell.

MS RANDELL: The program is advertised in a number of ways. We have done public advertisements through the press. We also make information available through the public health nurses who have contact with newborns, and we do operate a 1-800 number that individuals can access for information on the program. So we have taken a variety of steps to ensure that individuals are aware that the program exists and that they can apply and receive this benefit. In actual fact, those routes have resulted in - we have currently about 1,800 individuals monthly receiving that benefit. That would include pregnant mothers, as well as individuals who have children under one year of age.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Ms Randell.

On the take-up of the program, percentage wise with the newborns and with pregnant mothers, across the board, how do you - I am just trying to get a hold on how well it has been taken up by people out there. Have you got a percentage on that, a ballpark figure?

MADAM CHAIR: Ms Randell.

MS RANDELL: Currently, I would not be able to give you a percentage take-up, but I would say two things: one, that the program is for low-income families up to $22,300 worth of income annually. Given that constraint on the program, and if we take it, I think there is in the vicinity of 3,500 or 4,000 births annually now, approximately, 1,800 would represent, I would suggest, a reasonable take-up on the program. But we are certainly going to monitor our efforts at communication to ensure that program is publicized, as I say, through the public health nursing program, through physicians. We do place information pamphlets in physicians' offices and that sort of thing as well.

MR. MANNING: Yes, I know. Personally, I believe it is an excellent program. I am just wondering about the people, because I had a call a few weeks ago that I passed on to your department.

On page 197, under 4.1.02. Labour Market Adjustment Program, I realize that this a federal-provincial agreement. My first question, I guess, Mr. Minister, is: Does that expire on March 31, that particular program?

MADAM CHAIR: Minister Wiseman.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, I think it is extended to 2004. The Northern Cod Early Retirement Program is March 2003. In the Northern Cod Early Retirement Program, there was nothing for this year. In the Atlantic Fishers Early Retirement Program, there is $450,000; the fish plant Older Worker Adjustment Program, there is $1.1 million. The program for Older Work Adjustment is finished. The Fishers Early Retirement Agreement is $2,650,000. In the Older Worker Pilot Project Agreement there is $240,000, for a total of $4,440,000.

MR. MANNING: The $2,650,000, you said was for the -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The Fishers Early Retirement Agreement.

MR. MANNING: Is that an ongoing program?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: This one was signed in 1998. The retirement benefits for fishers and TAGS program came to an end. The project cost - the program, based on 1,400 participants - approximately $92 million, of which the provincial share would be about $27.6 million, 30 per cent of the total cost (inaudible) Province's share normally paid over a five-year period. So basically it is continuing for 2003-2004, the provincial share.

MR. MANNING: Is the provincial share for 2003-2004, $2.6 million?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. MANNING: Under that same heading, we have revenue from federal, $240,000. Then we are responsible, as a Province, for the remainder of $4.2 million. What would that $240,000 be allotted for under the federal?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is the Older Worker Pilot Project Agreement, which has now been extended to March 2003-2004, next year.

MR. MANNING: That is for the Older Worker Adjustment Program.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The Older Worker Pilot Project Agreement, yes.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That was new monies that we were given and we are waiting for them to -

WITNESS: (Inaudible) three applications.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, three applications are before the federal government.

MR. MANNING: For a federal-provincial agreement?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. MANNING: These three applications that are before the federal government at the present time, how long have they been put forward?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: They are new applications that are currently under consideration at the federal level.

MR. MANNING: Are they follow-ups to these programs or is there a new program?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: These are new applications, new money that is available through the federal government.

MR. MANNING: Would it follow the same programs that we have in place now or is there a new program coming?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I will let the deputy explain that one to you.

MADAM CHAIR: Ms Randell.

MS RANDELL: The Older Worker Pilot Project Program was intended to end at the end of this fiscal year. We have two projects that were funded in the past. St. Lawrence was one, and a forestry project on the West Coast was another. Those two projects have come to a conclusion and are currently under evaluation. When the B.C. Softwood Lumber Adjustment Programs were announced last fall, under that program the federal government allotted additional monies to the provinces for older worker pilots. As a consequence of that, we were given an additional $240,000 that we had not anticipated that came forward to the Province. We did invite applications. We received three, and those three are currently under consideration.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will come back later.

MADAM CHAIR: The next speaker will be Mr. Hedderson.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, just as an overview I guess, in looking at the allocations of funds for this particular department, because on the heels of the new legislation I kind of expected a little bit more in balance between the income support and the employment. Just looking at it - and again, just as an overview. Income Support we are talking over $200 million allocated, and Employment, $15 million. Now I know the new legislation has come in and I know we were going to look at hiring, or retraining and so on, and we are going to be boldly stepping forward with employment initiatives, but to be honest with you, I do not see anything different from really what was allocated last year and this year. I just want your general take on it. When can we expect to see more of a balance - not a balance, I am sure you will never get a balance. Will that be the way it will be, $200 million for Income Support and $15 million for Employment?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, we have been - I think since 1998 actually - making changes within the department of how we do and deliver our programs. One of the first things we had to do was work up the new pay system and a new computerized program that would enable us to deliver a better program in terms of client services. So the objective here is to have the client service officer out working directly with clients; do an assessment of their skill levels - if they are employable and able to work - and helping them to increase their skills. We have a program called NewfoundJobs, which pays for some transportation and some tuition, depending on what they are doing and that kind of a thing. The whole objective here is to work with people who are able to work, to get them back into the workforce.

The other advantage we have too is that the economy in Newfoundland and Labrador has improved tremendously in terms of employment. Last year we had a record number of people employed in the Province, some 213,900 people. All of us know that the key to people on income support, who are able to work, are jobs. Our statistics show us that people - I think it is some 68 per cent or 70 per cent - who are leaving income support are leaving it for employment. Plus we are running other pilot projects, like the single mother employment project, that has been very successful. So we are continuing on with that this year. The whole objective here is to work with people to help them make that transition from income support to jobs. The difficulty understanding, I guess, the balance between what we pay out in income support and the amount we are putting into employment programs is really not something that you can compare.

We know that jobs in construction, for instance, someone could be working on construction for six months and bang, the job is finished. He is out of a job. He could find himself in a circumstance where he could come to us for help. He might be only there for two months and he is gone again. So we have people in and out of the system all the time, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. The good news is that the cases are declining. As long as we keep on working with the programs that we do have, evaluating the programs we are putting forth, I believe that people will leave income support.

I mean employability assistance for people with disabilities, I personally said we should put more money into it. We did last year. We put $300,000 more into helping these people to be gainfully employed with support work. I can tell you, beyond any doubt, these people are more dependable then healthy people in terms of being to work on time and the production level that they do. It is a great investment for us because these people are now out being gainfully employed in industry where their skills allow them to do so. In some cases, support with them; in a lot of cases no support. What is interesting, I think some fifty or sixty of these people are self-employed.

I guess the bottom line is that we are trying to move in all directions in terms of our financial capabilities. I believe that we are moving in the right direction. Things are working, and we now have the flexible income support where we can move some monies around. We have had some instances where people want to move from one job to another, or need some help with transportation; we have helped. So, we are more flexible than we used to be under the new legislation.

Back to the employability assistance for people with disabilities, we have extended the agreement with the federal government now for another few months. We still believe that the federal government should be investing more. I think we are investing some $11 million to people with disabilities while the federal government puts in $4.1 million - I think, Vivian? So, as a Province, and in terms of our fiscal capacity to do so, I think we are doing a lot more than sometimes we get credit for. We are moving in the right direction, the $206 million or so that it is costing us for income support, keeping in mind that some of these cases are long-term cases that will always be with us.

As I said, according as the economic employment opportunities continue to get better in Newfoundland and Labrador, in fact, I am very optimistic about the next five or six years here in terms of employment, with the increase in employment with Voisey's Bay starting this spring, and the increase in employment in White Rose. There are lots of opportunities here, and I can tell you - I know you read the newspapers - if you look at the newspaper today in the Ads section it is full of jobs; people are looking for people to work. Five years ago that was not so, but today there are a lot of advertisements looking for skilled people to go to work.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, that is the overview.

Minister, I think what you are saying is that really the legislation caught up with the department organization, and much of what was intended in that legislation was already in place so I would not see any dramatic changes in structure or funding in this particular budget because I think you referenced 1998 or 1999.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Well, in 1998 we began the reorganization, I guess, and another vision of how we should do things. As you know, in government, things take a while to get through all of the hoops to make sure. We are doing a labour market strategy for the Province, and my department is the lead on it. We are hoping to have it completed over the next couple of months, by early summer anyway. The legislation took a lot of work for the people in the department . They have been doing a great job, actually, because we do have a vision of what we want to do, and I think the legislation that we put in place is certainly going to help us. We are now doing the regulations, looking at the regulations to see where we are going to go with that.

There is a tremendous amount of work being done on all fronts. The pilot project out in Bay St. George should go live in the next couple of months, to make sure that all of the glitches are out of it, that everything is going to be working at the push of a button. There is a tremendous amount of - I guess, when we get there, you are going to see the results after. It is just all the work that needs to be done to get up to where you want to be.

MR. HEDDERSON: With that in mind then, obviously you are targeting and tracking. What, in the next couple of years, can I - you know what I am looking for. I am just seeing where we are going, because really income support should be decreasing as employment increases. You basically have gotten things in order, organizing, structuring . What type of targets have you set, in a general sense, too, Minister? Obviously, you are not going to go through every -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I can tell you basically because I have looked out the program a couple of times in terms of where we want to go. It is a pretty detailed program in terms of us getting back from the program what we need to know in terms of the individual client so that we know what the complete status of that individual client is: skill, age, so on and so forth. There is another group, of course, that is on long-term employment, that is not employable or is unable, through illness, to be employed, so these are just files that would have to be maintained.

On the other part with the employment, we are also working closely with HRDC to try and find some ways there too. They are being co-operative, I guess, to a point. I guess the best way to describe it is, it is getting there. The pilot project that we are doing in Bay St. George will be the actual - over the next six months to see how that begins to unfold while people out there are operating the new system. People are being registered through the new system. The client services officers do not have to sit down all day long filling out papers. It can be done right from the system now, so that will free everybody up to work directly with the clients. We have gone from some 36,660 cases in 1997 down to some 28,000 cases now today.

We are going to reach a point where we are not going to get any lower because of the makeup of the cases and the conditions of the clients who are involved, so we will probably get down to somewhere below 18,000 cases.

In terms of getting everybody, no, that is not going to happen. That is not the way the world is.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, just looking for some changes, any time you go through Estimates, of course, you are looking for where there is an infusion. From what I hear, Minister, you are a lot into the development and the planning stages.

I just refer to 1.2.03.10. Grants and Subsidies. There is a dramatic jump there of $500,000. I am assuming that it is research or analysis. Could you comment on that? Because again it will give me some clue as to perhaps the direction the department is going in. Page 194.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Grants and Subsidies?

MR. HEDDERSON: The $500,000 in section .10.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I am glad you asked that. That is the Kids Eat Smart program. We want to support that program because it reaches out to a lot of children in a different way. You probably noticed my picture on the bus all year going around St. John's; one as minister and one when I was ten years old. Anyway, I did not do it for that. I am a great believer in trying to do as much as we can to help children.

You are an educator and you know full well that if children are well fed, they learn well. We have to try as much as we possibly can to practice what we preach. That is why we are making a tremendous investment into education.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so that is an outright grant?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not research or anything. So, under that particular program development and planning, that Kids Eat Smart, that is for the planning part of it? Obviously, it is not for food or anything.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, that goes to the Kids Eat Smart program and they take it and implement the programs in schools around the Province. I think, if memory serves me correct, we have probably invested some $2.5 million since probably 1995, the government has.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: It is 1998, is it?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Since 1998 in providing funding for those particular programs.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under the Client Services, again, just looking for directions that you are going, I know I am just looking at it from some of my own experience from own district, and in particular offices in the Whitbourne area, the Bay Roberts area, and in Manuels. These are the offices that serve my district. There was a situation where it did not seem like offices were important as to whether they were placed next to the client because, you know, a lot of it was not face to face or the client coming in, in many of the situations.

I just caught something that you said, Minister, and the fact of reaching out or going out, or dealing with the clients themselves. Now, is this from the employment part of it or the income support part of it or a combination?

I have an ulterior motive because I am certainly a little bit nervous about the office in the Whitbourne area, for example, in the Bay Roberts area and the Harbour Grace area. Is everything staying the same or have things change? Will the offices become more important or less important? Can you have your workers, really, in a central office looking at a large area, or the closer they would be to the client the better? Is there any change in your direction there?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We have not contemplated doing any changes right now. That program on the West Coast should be up and running in the next couple of months. We will follow that through to see how it is unfolding and how it is working out, do an assessment of what is actually happening out there before we implement the program around the Province, the Island portion of the Province, and into Labrador.

The whole idea of the program is to have clients access the help that they need with the greatest amount of dignity, so they can do it by telephone. They would have to make only one visit, I think, to the office to verify who they are, with identification and so on and so forth. It could be done by phone, mail-in or computer, I guess, if they are fortunate enough to have a computer.

You are probably referring to some of the issues that came up a few months ago in Whitbourne, in your particular case, and Bay Roberts and Carbonear. The main focus of the department is client service. There are times when some people may be off sick, or there may be a situation where you had to move some people around. That is on the go on a continuous basis actually. The managers and supervisors are always in that position. I guess you have to be working in the job to really appreciate the challenges of the job. It can be very challenging. You are dealing with people who are in a tremendous amount of need in a lot of cases. If you do that on a daily basis, eight hours a day, I probably would say then you can draw your own conclusion. So we do, from time to time, have to move some people around, but never with the intent of closing anything.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just have one more question and one more point before I go on.

Before I go on, Minister, I would like to say, with the deputy minister and the officials there, that perhaps your department is one of the ones I have most contact with. I have to say, for the record, that the workers out in the field go over and beyond. I certainly compliment them and your department because I get into some pretty dicey situations, as do your workers, as do you people. I tell you, it some good to pick up the phone and get a very positive response. To the person, if it can be done, it is done. For that I certainly compliment and congratulate the department.

Just one thing - and I will just pass along, I guess it may come back to me. I hope it does; I have a few more questions. The minister indicated that I have been an educator for my lifetime and one of the areas that I find is the ABE program, the Adult Basic Education. It is certainly, I guess, a ticket for some of the individuals who find themselves in need of income support and whatever. They are having some difficulties with getting them into - especially the private colleges. Now it is my understanding, and correct me if you would, that with the public colleges there is some funding from your department but when it comes to the private ones it becomes increasingly more difficult, if not impossible. Minister, if you could just comment on that. Again, I am not exactly sure what your policy is. So if you could just relay the policy.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We do have a program, as I mentioned earlier, called NewfoundJOBS, which supports tuition. A few years ago the department did some reorganization and we now support sending these people to the College of the North Atlantic as opposed to -

MR. HEDDERSON: I have gotten some feedback, I should say. There are often situations where you may sponsor someone to go into public colleges, but in actual fact, in their home community they might have a private college that is offering the same. Adult Basic Education is what it is. It is the common - wherever it is done it is under whatever. The client has to pass the private institution to travel, almost on a boarding situation, outside the community. Is there any provision to prevent that from happening? If someone could present a case to you obviously it would be more financially feasible for that person to go to the private institution as opposed to going to the community college.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I have not been faced with that question in terms of - I have not had a case come to me saying that I just cannot get this done. In fact, this is the first time I have been aware that there may be an issue. Our direction has been to send them to the College of the North Atlantic. My deputy here is dying to comment because she has been involved -

MR. HEDDERSON: I have been waiting, and your other officials too, we are trying to - I am going to direct some questions -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I will let my deputy give you a good answer for it.

MS RANDELL: The changes that we made to Adult Basic Education - this goes back now three or four years - was intended, Mr. Hedderson, to try and ensure that we had a consistent program of Adult Basic Education for these students so that they could get a recognizable completion at the end of the program.

Adult Basic Education, Level II, we reorganized and went into a partnership with CONA in order to ensure that we had Province-wide accessability for ABE II. Having said that, we do know there are always cases where we do not necessarily have sufficient resources to meet all the needs. One of the areas that we are trying to address with Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education and with the Department of Education is access, particularly to ABE, Level I. That is where we find the needs are greatest and we have less consistency in the programs available.

As you are aware, there have been announcements with regard to pilot projects for AB Level I, coming September, which we hope will begin to address some of those needs. We have been working actively with our partners in education and with the federal government to try and improve the funding available for Adult Basic Education. So there are some concerns there. We are aware of those concerns and we are working to try and address the concerns.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Vivian.

Like a good deputy minister you cut off my second question because it was on Level I. That was the second concern that I was going to bring to your attention. Accessibility, obviously, is the key factor right here. We do not always have that easy access to the public colleges, and I just though that looking at the alternate.

Vivian, just as a followup too, obviously the distance education is becoming necessary in the K-12 system and the post-secondary as well. Do you envision any possibility of moving in that direction and making - like we have (inaudible) sites around, you know what I mean, and there are libraries and that sort of thing. Is that a direction that has been looked at or considered?

MS RANDELL: Quite honestly, from my perspective, it is certainly something that, yes, we would be interested in. I am not aware at this point. The responsibility for the delivery of ABE rests with the other departments. I am not aware if that is under active consideration but I can certainly pursue that. I agree with you, it is an alternative and allows accessibility to be improved.

One other point I would make, I guess, with regard to ABE Level II and our relationship with CONA, it has been a very positive relationship because we have been advised that clients, in fact, who go into the regular program at CONA, ABE Level II, are, in fact, making the transition to other training opportunities within the college. While they are simultaneous as they improve in ABE Level II, if they have a career plan that moves them into other college programs, we have been assisting clients to make that transition. So that has been one of the advantages, as well, of working within the CONA structure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Vivian, we are doing the Estimates for the Youth Services and Post-Secondary. Be assured, I will bring this up and maybe we can convince that minister to help out.

Again, there are alternatives. The outreaches from the college, and the distance education. I agree totally with you, that the accessibility is a difficulty. The Level I entry point would be the one that a lot of the clients in your department would be looking to. In close proximity to the college, they could jump off into post-secondary.

I have gone a little longer than I anticipated. So if you have any questions, I will just wait and move along.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Wiseman.

Mr. Ross Wiseman this time. We have two Wisemans here tonight.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Let's not get that confused, Madam Chair. The last time I saw that confusion I was accused of spending $6,000 on entertainment but I did not spend any. I do not know if that was the other Mr. Wiseman, but it was not my money.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Everybody's got a dream.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I do want to, if I could, Madam Chair - there are a couple of questions that are directly in the Estimates themselves that I would like to refer to and ask for some clarification. This is an issue around programs and services that I would like to talk a little bit about.

In each of the categories, or most of the categories, there is a category called Purchased Services. I wonder, minister, could we start at the beginning, in 1.1.01, and just walk through that particular category of Purchased Services in each of the heads? Can you tell me what that represents? When you get Purchased Services in the Minister's Office, for example, what would you be talking about there?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is for photography, entertainment, general purchase services and other miscellaneous expenses.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: It is a miscellaneous type of account, is it?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Pretty well, yes.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: When we get over into Administrative Support it is a little bit different, it is $1.5 million. So I assume that is not miscellaneous.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: You are at 1.2.02.06.?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Office rentals, the cost of the new pay system, printing, microfilming, other services: advertising, promotions, copier rentals, et cetera.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Advertising and promotions. How much was in that category?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Fourteen thousand. Office rentals were $1.24 million.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Office rentals?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, that is client services offices around the Province. I think we have forty-eight of them.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay.

Then down in Program Development and Planning, it is $84,000. Maybe you can comment about the increase from last year. There was a Budget of $84,600 and there was a Revised budget of $204,900, in that category under 1.2.03.06.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The $84,600?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: It was being provided for routine requirements for each division for redesign; the department sharing the model for coordinated Services for Children and Youth at Risk, as identified through the education system.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Are you referring to the - well, there are two parts -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The $84,600 that is budgeted this year.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I guess the other part of my question was the $204,000 spent last year versus the $84,000 that was budgeted. Can you comment on the increase and what that was used for?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: My Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Roberts, should have the -

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Roberts.

MR. ROBERTS: That relates to some expenditures we had last year for the implementation of our new pay system in redesign. We had a transition fund developed during the year and most of the expenditures came out of this activity in this main object. We transferred some funds from other areas in the department into this, and that is why it was so high.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: You will notice that we had budgeted $8,409,600. The Revised Budget was $8,329,900. We spent less.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Also in that same category, we might as well deal with it while we are on 1.2.03., Grants and Subsidies are jumping up by $500,000 in this coming year. Is that a particular project?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, that was the question that I just answered for your colleague there. That was the $500,000 in the Kids Eat Smart Program.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay.

I will continue on with that. Under Client Services, we have Purchased Services again, 2.1.01.06., $179,000.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We had budgeted $169,100, we spent $155,800 and now we have budgeted $179,100.

That is for photocopier rentals, printing costs, advertising promotions, other miscellaneous rentals for the department network of district offices throughout the Province. That includes funding of $10,000 to support income assisted initiatives such as additional workers for support application.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay, thank you.

If I could just talk a little bit about some program areas, if you do not mind, I would like to use as the reference the recently released Social Audit, if I could. Maybe as we talk about this, you could tie it back to the budget in terms of your expenditures, if that would be okay with yourselves, Minister?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, go ahead.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I guess we will walk through this in the manner in which it is talked about here in the audit.

The first category that jumps out at me talks about, "The gap between high and low income levels has increased". It says, "In 1999 the gap between people with high incomes and people with low incomes was larger than in 1990".

I guess that reflects a concern that has been expressed numerous times with respect to the disparities that exist not only within various parts of the Province, various regions of the Province, when you have the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. That has been the common phrase being used to describe that.

I guess, Minister, as that starts to happen, you run into no doubt many challenges within your department. You just alluded a moment ago to having to put $500,000 into the Kids Eat Smart program. I think that is probably just one of the products that we see in the Province. Having to put $500,000 into that program is probably a product of this kind of statistics that we are looking at here. Can you identify some of the strategies in your program where you plan to address that issue? Can you tie it back into the Budget Estimates and show us where you are budgeting to do that?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: First of all, I want to say that you had said the disparity continues to widen. It is always difficult, I guess, for my department to try and control what is happening in terms of the bigger picture. As a government, we have raised the minimum wage. We have no control over inflation as such. We can only do or put in place policies that would benefit people, I guess, to the point where - if you had thought along the lines of increasing the minimum wage, if you do that, the cost goes up, so how do you make it beneficial to those who are making the minimum wage? That is a challenge that every government has across the country, actually.

We have done some things in my department, like, we have reinvested the money from the Child Tax Benefit back into the program coupled with, as I had said earlier in my opening remarks, people with children will do well in terms of, on July 1, I think it is something like $188 for the first child per year, coupled with the Newfoundland and Labrador Child Benefit. We help them with drug cards, transportation, property tax. That includes people on social assistance, and also low income people. That has been an ongoing practice, actually, in the department.

We are concerned, of course, with the child. We are concerned about the child poverty. We are not alone. We say, if one child is in poverty, it is one child too many. When you look at child poverty across the country and realize that $1.1 million children in the great county of Canada live in poverty, then you look at us, we have 30,000. In fact, we have dropped 1,000 since 1999. In 1999, there were 31,000 children living below the poverty line in Newfoundland and Labrador. Today - well, the last known statistics - there are 30,000. It is nothing to boast about. The poverty still exists. I do not know if there is any government ever to be that is going to eliminate poverty. It is not a simple thing to deal with, but in terms of us in our fiscal capacity we are, I guess, on average with the rest of the country in terms of how much people get on social services through my department. They are probably better off. The cost of living may be somewhat different here. If you look further along those statistics, I think you will find that we have the most home ownership in the country. The lifestyle here is different, so you have to take into consideration all of the aspects when you talk about the challenges that people have.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Minister, do you think there is a correlation between that statement and a statement that is in your budget document Economy 2003 that says about 80 per cent of the employment gains since 1996 have been in the service industries, a sector that probably pays close to or about the minimum wage?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I cannot tell you exactly what they pay, but we do know that people who are leaving income support are leaving it for employment - I think some 68 per cent to 70 per cent of the people that leave. In fact, the pilot project we ran with single mothers, I think, was a very successful program. I think there are ninety of these single mothers who are not on the program any more and not on our books any more either. So, we are constantly working with clients to try and improve, where we can, their status; keeping in mind, Mr. Wiseman, that this is a very big challenge when you deal with individual persons' capabilities, capacities and will. It is a complex issue, very complex.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I guess, Minister, I was not suggesting by any means that it was in any way simple or easy. I just wanted to get some sense of the initiatives that your department had been involved with (inaudible).

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Well, when you look at the overall approach that the department has taken in terms of the program, the computerized programing, the pay system that we are putting forward and is very well along now in terms of the pilot project being done, the division of having the client service officer working directly with clients in the field, face to face, these things will happen. It will happen as soon as the pilot project, the computerized system, is running out on the West Coast. These are all the things that we have all put in together to deliver in terms of making things better for people who are on income support. As I said, we are investing for people with disabilities some $11 million out of the Province while the great federal government invests $4.1 million. We are actually moving ahead of some of the provinces in terms of what we are doing.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you.

As I said, Mr. Minister, I just moved forward in the audit. As I move through the document - I guess this is probably one of the most startling and troublesome comments that - there is some interesting data in this audit. The one that I am about to refer to now is probably the most troublesome and, obviously, should create a great deal of concern for all of us. I think it is a sad commentary to have to read this in the year 2003. It talks about children living in poverty.

I just want to read the first two parts, and I would like to have some discussion with the minister. "Although the number of children under age of 18 living in the province has declined by about 30% since 1991, the number of children living in poverty has not declined at the same rate. Based on before-tax income, 26% of children were living in poverty in 2002 - up from 21% in 1991."

The interesting thing about that is in the next sentence, it talks about the proportion of children living in Canada in 1991 was 19 per cent and the same period in 2000 had dropped to17 per cent, while the rest of the country is dropping in that nine-year period from 1991 to 2000. In this Province we seen the rate go up by 9 per cent. I think, Mr. Minister, that is a pretty startling piece of information.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Right, you could put it in that light but -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Quite easily, I think.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Well, I would not be too hasty to try and - I am not defending it in anyway, but what I can tell you is that the percentages have gone up because the numbers of children have dropped.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I could say the same thing about your employment statistics a moment ago -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: There is no argument here.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: - because the population has gone down so therefore (inaudible).

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Do you want me to -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Go ahead.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: You know full well that we have one of the lowest birthrates in the country now. As the number of children we have drop, the percentage of children in poverty gets higher. Anybody who knows math understands that.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Before you go any further, look at the first paragraph in the next section.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No, let me finish, to explain to you. The fact of the matter is, in 1999, according to the report, there were 31,000 children in poverty. The latest report that you have is in 2000. The number of children in Newfoundland and Labrador in poverty, by that same report, was 30,000, which means we have 1,000 children less in 2000 than we had in 1999. Because the number of children - if we have less children the percentages go higher.

Now, it is great stuff to hang onto and latch onto if you want to try and make it any worse, but we have always said that if you have one child in poverty it is one too many. But when you look at our fiscal capacity as a government, and you look at the fiscal capacity of a country and you realize that 1.1 million children are living in poverty in this great country of ours - 390,000 children in Quebec are below the poverty line.

We, here in Newfoundland and Labrador, face many, many challenges. I guess that is a debate that is further away from a department issue when we look at the kind of commitment the federal government makes to us. That is a different debate for a different time, but just so that we can keep things in perspective, we have the lowest birthrate in the country. Our population of children are declining very fast. The fact of the matter is, the last report that was done, in terms of actual children - not percentages of children, real people - we had 1,000 children less than we did when the report was done in 1999.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I don't want to debate that particular statistic with you, minister. As I said, I was going to go through this report. I preference my comment by saying how I would like to do it in terms of - have you then described the initiatives your department has undertaken to deal with some of these issues and then tie it back into the budget allocation? That was my question. It is not so much to debate the issue, but just to make a comment before I rephrase my question.

I am sure you weren't trying to defend the statistic, but I guess -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: No. Excuse me! Look, I am not defending anything. I just want, for the record, for people to understand that when you are playing a percentage game, the reality is different. When you are talking about actual numbers, the fact of the matter is, in Newfoundland and Labrador, the last report that we have, there were 1,000 less children in poverty than there were in 1999.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: It ties directly back, I suspect, to the comment you made earlier about the birth rates having dropped, so there are fewer children to become impoverished. That is probably contributing to -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: If you had went on in that report, you would have seen that the number of children in households receiving social assistance at some point during the year dropped by 36 per cent, between 1991 and 2001, from 35,700 to 23,000. During the same period, the number of children in the Province dropped by 30 per cent. I am surprised you didn't go to that. That is just a point I would like to make.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Back to my question - and I said I was going to touch on each of those areas. I want you to share with us the initiatives your department has undertaken to deal with - because that is the purpose of the audit, I assume, to demonstrate or to profile some of those things that we have to deal with as a Province - to deal with this particular finding in the audit and tie it back for us to the Budget and how you have allocated the funding to fund that program.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We have reinvested the savings from the Newfoundland and Labrador Child Benefit. We have continued with the Mother Baby Nutritional Supplement. We took into consideration the impact, on July 1, that the national Child Benefits will have for children. By the way, as I said, we also have the same extended drug card and transportation. We still have to carry on with these supports for people.

I would be more interested in the child poverty report that would come out some time this spring to see what benefits it has actually had, the implementation of the benefits back in 1999. The report 1999-2000 was a little bit early to really tell whether these benefits were having an impact or not. I would be quite anxious, actually, to see the new report that should be done this spring in terms of the impact of what has been put into the fight against child poverty would have in the bigger scheme of things.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Minister, can we talk about, you mentioned earlier about statistics in terms of employment. The report talks about more people working, which is a positive direction, obviously, if we can move people from the unemployment lines to becoming fully employed. Do you have some data on the distribution of that increase by region, not the speculation that the growth has occurred primarily in the Avalon area and that the other parts of the Province have not necessarily enjoyed the same growth in employment?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: You are asking me to pull out some stats on where the actual jobs have taken place.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Maybe I can help you with that. As I am asking the question, I am looking also at the Budget document, Budget 2003, on page 7 on the economy section. It features labour markets and it says employment by region. It is your Budget document, Economy 2003.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Where are we?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: We are on page 7 of the Economy 2003 document that was distributed by the minister with her Budget release.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: What is it you want to know again?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I guess, when we look at a budget document and the Estimates talk about provincial programs, we are looking at a very broad provincial-wide approach to some of the programs for departments of ministers. What I would like for you to do is share with us the initiatives that you are undertaking in some very specific regions, those particularly who have - this grid here would clearly demonstrate - been hardest hit, have not had the same growth and employment that the Avalon has had. In fact, in looking at some of this data here, we look at the Burin South Coast, our colleague from Marystown can probably attest to some of the experiences in her district (inaudible).

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Okay, so what you are actually asking -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Translate your provincial (inaudible) into regions.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Just let me see if I clearly understand what you are saying. You are asking me to translate -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Not translate.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Let me ask the question.

You are asking me to translate the information that is in the Stats Canada reports and correlate it with our own region that we service under Human Resources and Employment.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: No. What I am asking you is to look at that grid there that you used in your own provincial Budget document that shows that we have not had very much employment gains in at least two areas in the Province, and there are four areas of the Province that are significantly lower than the Avalon and St. John's area, and share with us how you are taking your provincial initiatives you have identified in you Budget document here and show how you are zeroing in on those more depressed regions and helping to create more employment in those specific regions.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: That is exactly what I had just said. You are asking me to look at the report from Stats Canada and tell you where we apply our employment programs by region. Now, isn't that what I -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Okay, I misunderstood you. I apologize if I misunderstood your rephrasing the question, but, yes -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I did not rephrase the question. I just restated what I had said earlier. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Now I understand that you want me to tell you where employment programs are targeted.

We can get that information for you. We do not have it here tonight.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I would appreciate that, if you could, because I think that would be important. I think we would all like to have some sense of that, so thank you for that.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, it is budgeted differently for different regions.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: The other issue, too, it is encouraging to see, Minister, the other - I am looking at a pie chart in this audit on page 19 that shows that a significant portion of the recipients of social assistance are there for less than one year. If you look at the periods, and look at the grid here, I do not know if you have that document in front of you, the Social Audit?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I am assuming these people in the six-year category are people who obviously have some kind of - they are going to be a long-term dependant upon you and probably are in the category where they will be - I will not say there is a good chance that they will be there for a long time, but there probably is, statistically. That grouping from the two years up to five years, and I guess as you move from two to five you are more at risk of being on assistance for a longer period, but capturing those people in, I guess, that two- to four-year period becomes a very critical stage.

There is not a large number in that grouping, but have you targeted some of your special employment initiative into those groups in particular?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes, we know that if people are on income support longer than two years it becomes a challenge to move them out of there, so that has been a focus of the department to continue to work with people as soon as they are identified.

Most people who come to us want to work. W e find that if you work with them, if we can help them in any way, that is what it is about. We have done a lot of work in that regard in terms of trying to identify who those people are.

We have a number of programs: the Linkages Employment Program for troubled young people; the Graduate Employment Program; the Seasonal Employment Program; the Employment Generation Program. All of those program are targeted at people who are unemployed, who are not EI eligible. The Linkages Employment Program is specifically for youth, actually. It is a twenty-six week program.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: There is one other program area, and I will just -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Now, we also refer some 2,500 other clients annually to HRDC.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: There is one other program area that I do want to talk a little bit about and that is Persons With Disabilities. I have had some experience with the program to facilitate retraining. I have had some real positive experience, Minister, and it is commendable that you have spent so much money and invested so much money in the retraining end of it. My colleague asked some questions about the Adult Basic Education Level I and II because that is an issue as well.

I want to talk a little bit about Persons With Disabilities. The training piece becomes one part of it, and I guess this is where it goes back to my own personal critic area of health. I think the Assistant Deputy Minister, Ms Jeans, will recall a conversation that we had some time ago. This goes back, Minister, just for your benefit, to a question I posed in the House last year when we were debating some changes to the legislation when we talked about some of the things that occurred when the separation of services occurred between Health and Community Services.

I am still not totally comfortable that I understand, or not totally comfortable that what I understood was going to happen is actually happening. The circumstance that I had a discussion with your department around is the application of the Enriched Needs test guidelines that came about when the changes occurred prior to 1998. I laid out for your department, at that time, a very specific example about an individual who, with his same set of circumstances, had he had - and this is an individual with a disability - the policies that were in place 1998 applied to his circumstance, would have been better off today than he was to the tune of two hundred and some odd dollars, because the enriched needs test guidelines were not being applied in his current circumstance.

I recognize this same issue will apply to people, other than those with disabilities, as well, but this particular one that stood out for me was as an individual with a disability. There has been one other that I have run across since this, which coincidentally is a person with a disability. As recently as last week, on Thursday of last week, my office was dealing with a constituent who lives in the Central area of the Province and is being dealt with by your Grand Falls office. He is not a person with a disability, but if they applied to the enriched needs program and guidelines, then this person would also be better off.

I guess, my question, Minister, is: I understand that this issue and issues like this get referred to a joint committee of Health and Community Services and your department to try to reconcile. It has been some time now since the departments have merged and the services have merged and, as of today, these individuals have still not been totally sorted out and still not actually dealt with, because it involves both your department and Health and Community Services.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I will let the deputy speak to that. My understanding was that it was sorted out. I should say, though, before I defer to the deputy, that when dealing with 50,000 people a year, it wouldn't be unusual to find one or two who had some problems that just didn't work out for their benefit. I can tell you that the staff of my department, wherever and whenever possible make it work. I know the case you are referring to, but I thought that everything had been sorted out. I will defer it to my deputy for her to follow up.

MADAM CHAIR: Ms Randell.

MS RANDELL: Mr. Wiseman, it is an area that we are very cognizant of, are aware of the concerns, and we take the concerns very seriously. I do recollect that you raised this issue last year. While progress may seem slow, I think we are making progress.

In the particular instance concerning the individual in your particular area, as you know, we were able to resolve that. It was a case of how the board in that particular region was interpreting the Enriched Needs policies. We are taking steps to ensure that - while we understand there are concerns at the health board level regarding funding for services, such as home support, that test is also intended to allow clients access to funding through our department; medical transportation, et cetera. So we are taking steps to ensure that this is clearly understood.

Having said that, just prior to the Estimates meeting last year we had reconvened the liaison committee between the two departments because we were becoming aware of issues such as this. In fact, the work that we did on Victims of Violence raised that as an issue.

We did have a major meeting, just prior to Christmas, of senior staff from both departments and we set for ourselves a number of tasks for the year ahead. That includes addressing some of the types of concerns that you have raised.

As recently as this past March the Chair of the boards have come together. Again, to look at issues such as the Enriched Needs and the application of Enriched Need to clients.

I am confident that we are making progress. We do, from time to time, as the minister indicates - with so many individuals accessing both our systems ensuring consistency of approach is a challenge, and we acknowledge that, but we are working very hard to try and address these issues as quickly as possible.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I appreciate that. I probably monopolized a fair bit of time, and I apologize for that. Some of the questions I may have posed are areas around some real concerns we have as a society, and all of us would have and share. They are not intended to suggest that anybody in your department had not been dealing with these issues aggressively and prudently. It is just that your department happens to be the one that deals with a lot of people in the Province who are disadvantaged and find themselves in a difficult set of circumstances, sometimes very temporary and sometimes very frustrated.

As you talk to many people like ourselves, as MHAs, we become the people that a lot of these people contact. We really appreciate how diligently, particularly people in your departments, deal with us in responding to those. I have had a fair bit of cooperation from people across - I am looking at tonight, on dealing with some individual issues. I have always found that to be very comforting, knowing I can make that call and get it dealt with.

As some of our questions may deal with some very significant issues - as we find as MHAs in dealing with constituents - but also, too, they deal with issues that are important for us as a society. I am not intending to, in anyway, suggest that there is anything short of doing an excellent job in trying to respond to the needs because you people have probably some of the greatest challenges, more than many other government departments. It sometimes gets frustrating for all of us in trying to work through it.

I apologize if some of my questions may have sounded a bit aggressive or suggesting that there is some problem, but I think it reflects the significance of the issues that you have to deal with and the significance of the issues facing many people in our Province who find themselves somewhat disadvantaged on occasion. So I apologize for that if it appeared that way.

Madam Chair, I will not monopolize any more time, but I would like come back to a couple of points later before we wrap up.

MADAM CHAIR: Not a problem.

Mr. Aylward, do you have any questions or comments?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I have just a couple of comments and a couple of questions.

I want to compliment the minister and the department on this report. It is the first one, I believe. Is it the first one this year now, Mr. Minister?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The first one ever by the department.

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is very good because it outlines - it pretty clear and concise. I thought it was a very positive document to have. Also, one of the numbers that struck me this year was the number of employed people this year - 233,000 I think it was.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Two hundred and thirteen thousand, nine hundred.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Two hundred and thirteen is it? Okay.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: A record high.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are at some of the largest numbers or highest numbers of employed people in the Province, I think, in our history at this point, since we have been taking a record. That seems to point to where we have the new Strategic Social Plan. It seems to me that is starting to pay off. I would not mind hearing your comments on it, in the sense of the fact that we really got an emphasis now when it comes to the clients and individuals who are needing our service. Our service is much more integrated. I find it is integrated with the federal programs now. There is more of a cohesive effort to work on the person and the family trying to get people to look at education, look at employment. I see it in my district on the west coast. I will say there is a very big difference in the last seven or eight years.

I really believe that the programs are going in the right direction. You have a new act, which I think has been developed through consultations. It is very good, but I just wondered what your comment was on the fact that - I think it is very evident the programs are working because we are getting - I mean on the economy side, more people are being employed. That solves a lot of problems when people are working, but also I think the programs that have been rejigged that allow, for example, for people to keep some of their services while they are getting employed for the first few months or getting a better cheque or so on; those types of things. Many people argued for this years ago, and I think it is starting to show a benefit to our people who are now moving on to the economy, which I think is very positive.

I just want to hear what your comment was on that and how you see this Strategic Social Plan helping make this happen.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you, colleague.

I guess we have a vision of what we want to do and how we want to do things in the department. We have been focusing on all fronts. From our own information we know that the vast majority of people are leaving Income Support to be gainfully employed. We know that if people are given an opportunity they will work. As the economy of the Province gets better we believe that those who are able and are willing and have the skills to do so, will take advantage of this program because we do not believe that people are on Income Support because they want to be.

The economic outlook for the Province is looking good for the next few years, so we can anticipate a drop in the number of clients we have on Income Support. When we integrate all of the different factors in terms of integrating our social economic well-being together as one, taking into consideration the social aspect that needs to be taken care of and by the same time increasing the economic activity that we have. I think that the report on the department one was a good report, a very factual report in terms of where we want to go. We are not hiding anything. In fact, the questions that we are being asked is the information that we have given out. We want people to know, because in order to fix something you have to know what that problem is first, and people have to understand that there is a problem.

That is why I think the information that we released - my colleague, Gerald Smith, and the Premier the other day - From the Ground Up, is a great piece of work. It tells us exactly where we are in relationship to the rest of the country. It gives us an opportunity to do a self-analysis of ourselves and to say: Well, what do I need to do, or we need to do as an individual and as a community to move the Province forward, to move ourselves forward?

We are doing a lot of work on a lot of fronts that will take some time to come together. As long as we keep the economic activities going that are happening here in the Province with projects like Voisey's Bay, which is going to be a big employer this year, starting the mine and mill concentrator down in Voisey's Bay, and some work will be done at Argentia, and you have White Rose that will be gearing up in a bigger capacity this year, the extra jobs now that are coming from Bull Arm, there is a whole raft of things, of new initiatives, that people will be undertaking in manufacturing and in seeking out new areas to create new jobs and new employment.

Of course, we are in the process now of setting up a registration desk for people who are away, who have skills, who want to come back home. They can bring a lot with them. People are looking for people with skills. We will have them - somewhere in the country or somewhere in the world - registered with us, who want to come back here to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and go to work. The future does look good for us.

As I said, the employment part has increased. I know it is sometimes difficult, depending on where you are, to really see, but when you think about it, in March we had some 202,000 people employed in the Province. That is the highest we have every had, so things are looking better, but we certainly need to continue to work hard and do more.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I have one more question, Madam Chair.

I just want to say the Social Audit - by the way, it took a lot of political guts to do that, as far as I am concerned, as a government to adopt that policy, because it puts it right out front to the people and lets the people see exactly where we are. I think it is excellent. It was well done, and I think it is going to help the people of the Province move forward.

One question I have, one thought for you, actually: When you meet with HRD federally, do you have a meeting with that minister coming up, Mr. Minister, at some point? Your federal-provincial meetings, do you deal with the HRD Minister?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, I have a recommendation for you now. The employment programs that HRD has in this Province now, or across the country, they do not allow them to be EI - you are not able to become EI eligible on their weeks of work, in rural areas of the Province, I know.

I do not know what is on your next agenda but I would appeal to you to see if you could put it back on the agenda, because I wrote the federal minister last year about this, the fact that people can go to work on their programs but they are not EI eligible. Yet every other government of Canada, provincial government in the country, if we put out employment programs or employers do, any other employer in Canada creates work - and this is good work. This is very good work that we have going on in rural Newfoundland. HRD changed the rules and now HRD are not allowing the people to be EI eligible, which is beyond me. I just say to you, I do not where you are with it but I would ask you to think about bringing that forward to the next federal-provincial ministers meeting, because I think it is ridiculous myself. Really, I do. I think it is ridiculous that the federal government policy has changed to that point, because I think it is not helping us in rural areas.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much.

I have already, actually, talked with Minister Stewart about this whole proposal of people being EI eligible, about training programs, and the whole gamut. Because when you stop and think about it - and I had said earlier when we were talking about employability assistance for people with disabilities, here we are in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador investing some $11 million because we care, because we want to help those people get into employment and gain some dignity. The federal government comes up with $4.1 million. Now, just think about this, they are sitting up there with a surplus of over $40 billion. What an insult.

My view is, that money should be used for training programs for people who are under skilled and undertrained because, I tell you, not just here in Newfoundland and Labrador, but right across this country there is a skill shortage and there is going to be a big skill shortage over the next two to three years. It is going to get worse and we are going to have some problems here in the next year or so with skills. That is why, as a government, we are developing labour market strategy for the Province so that we can determine what the skills are that are going to be required for the next twenty to twenty-five years so that our schools and universities and colleges can train in accordance with the need. We can no longer be training people for skills that will not be required here in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We need to have a vision of what we are doing, and that has been my approach to the federal minister, that we need to get on with the business because, as I said, there is forty billion up there. Employment is up around the country. The more people employed. the higher the surplus goes, so why don't they take the money and put it to good use so that we can start training people who do not have the skills to get into the labour force?

MR. K. AYLWARD: My last comment on that, Madam Chair, is that I appreciate your comments, Mr. Minister, and I hope that you will be nice and aggressive around the table, as you can be when you care about something, and you do about this one. That is very good.

It seems to me, HRDC Canada seems to be frowning upon, for example, silviculture work, they are frowning upon seasonal labour that really contributes to the economy of Canada in a major way, and is relied upon in the rural economies to create wealth big time. It seems as if there is no value for that any more ever attributed to silviculture work, and tourism related projects that we used to benefit from this type of work. It is almost like we are trying to push people - not we, but this policy that the federal government has - out of rural areas. I encourage you to go after that loosening of the $40 billion so that our place can benefit from it and our people can benefit from it and can also stay here and contribute to the economy.

We should be respectful of six months a year of work, working in silviculture, helping plant trees for the future, which is environmentally responsible and positive for the long term of the economy. It is a renewable resource for the future, instead of having Ottawa wonder about whether or not it is even worth doing.

The priorities have to change there when it comes to that piece of the policy, and I know you are going to do a good effort on it. I just wanted to raise it with you and I hope that you are able to contribute to that debate.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I just want to make one comment in terms of what you had alluded to about the image or the understanding that people in Central Canada have about us, whether in Atlantic Canada or here in Newfoundland and Labrador. I happened to be looking at some statistics the other day and in the Province of Ontario alone there were some 469,000 people unemployed - almost as large as the whole population of Newfoundland and Labrador - and they have the gall to say: Sure, they don't work down there.

That is the attitude but, I tell you, over 52 per cent of us work all year round, here in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is terrible anyway, but that is a topic for another day.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Butler, do you have any questions or comments?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I just have one question and I guess a comment all tied to it, and it goes to page 198 with reference to Employment Assistance Programs for Persons with Disabilities. The estimate that you have there for this year versus last year - and I am only speaking for the Trinity-Conception employment program in my area - I am wondering, do you think the funds are sufficient for this year to carry out the programs that are requested from the various areas throughout the Province? Why I am asking that question, I am wondering, maybe some areas of the Province are going to be in less need this year; because I do know, from my understanding, and I met with those people just this past week, that the requests they have in and the demands they know are coming up are probably only to go halfway for them. I am just wondering - and I hate to do this by pinpointing one particular area - the funds that are there, do you think they are going to be sufficient this year to carry out all the needs and requests that will be coming in?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: To be quite frank with you, there is never enough, but as I said, last year we did take $300,000 from other programs and put into that particular program because there was a need there. We are continuing with the program now, because, as the program works, some people drop off and some people do not require support any more, so we are going to continue with the program to its full capacity. We have some other thoughts around what we may do after the first three or four months or so. We just want to see how the program unfolds with the people who are now waiting to get into the program.

We do have some thoughts. I do not want to say what they are because I want to see exactly where we are going in terms of how it is going to unfold with those who are waiting to get into the program.

MR. BUTLER: Why I brought it up, I know they have a program at Ascension Collegiate. I do not know the exact numbers there, and they go to the program at the school, but once they leave, if additional funding is probably not becoming available, it seems like what they were trained and taught to do there, and if they cannot get their placements out there - I am not complaining because there were a lot of people placed in that area last year. My concern is that there may be some who will not be eligible this year.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: We will review it at that point if it happens that we have reached our capacity again this year. We will take a look and see where we may go. We know it is a good program and we know it has been a successful program. We are talking with the federal government, trying to get them to invest more than what they are. We can say with a clear conscience, with the fact that we are investing $11 million into supportive employment programs and the feds are putting in $4 million. So if they put in at least half of what we are putting in, I think it would be a good move to solving a lot of the problems.

MR. BUTLER: Madam Chair, just one other little point - and I am not belittling the topic when I say a little point - and that is when we hear the word poverty. I just want to ask some of the officials over there, or maybe yourself, Minister: What is the benchmark now that you classify poverty? I know I have seen it listed in some statistics and to me the figure is staggering what it is judged by, when I know many families, not only in my district but in surrounding areas as well, are making far below that, and they would not even consider that they are looked at as living in poverty. I am just wondering what the benchmark is right now.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I tell you, it is a complex issue in terms of a good issue for debate. I will defer to my deputy here who has been at this for some thirty years now. I rely heavily on her judgements.

MADAM CHAIR: Ms Randell.

MS RANDELL: And, I might add, none the wiser.

There are varying definitions of poverty. It is very difficult to explain to the public precisely what is the appropriate definition. Even Statistics Canada, which establishes the low income cut-offs which are generally used as one measure of poverty, do officially state that, that is not a measure of poverty, in their official view. It is simply a statement of low income.

There are a number of measures. Low income cut-offs are one example. Post-tax, pre-tax is another usage of low income. Because of this concern the Ministers of Social Services - in actual fact, Mr. Butler, four years ago, I guess, now, brought forward to the federal government their concern about the inconsistencies in the definition, and the inability to establish a definition that was appropriate for rural communities as well as urban areas of the country. Urban areas have different issues. Rural communities have other kinds of issues.

As a consequence of that, we anticipate, in fact, hearing very soon about another measure of poverty called a market basket measure that has been worked on jointly with federal and provincial ministers to try and come up with a definition of poverty that takes into account the costs of living associated with different areas of the country and different geographical regions. We hope that measure - again, it won't be a definitive answer, but it will provide another way of looking at the issue. It will look at things like cost of foods, nutritious food in a particular region versus another. It will look at housing costs in a rural area versus an urban area.

It is a complex discussion. There is no ready definition. The fact is we use several, and each of those definitions gives us a different kind of information around that. The most commonly used is the low income cut-offs.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Hodder, do you have any questions?

MS M. HODDER: Just a comment, to commend the minister and his staff on the cooperation that I have received from that department in every issue that I have gone to you people with over the last few years.

There is one thing that I have noticed over the last year or so, and that is that there has been a marked reduction in the number of complaints that I am receiving. That tells me that there have to be a lot of issues addressed and taken care of at the local level. I still have the same contact with the low-income and underemployed people that I always did, of course. Most of these people are my very best friends. When we meet, I do not get the complaints when I am talking to them in the streets or anything else, in the same way, which tells me that it is being taken care of, and I have to commend everyone all the way down the line for that.

The issue that Kevin mentioned, the one on the EI, that is a real issue with so many of our people. We have our own make-work projects and they have been doing a fantastic job of addressing the problem for a lot of our low-income people, but for a lot of them being EI eligible is always an issue because we might be lucky enough to get them on a project in the fall; most of the time it is not enough, if somebody needs fourteen weeks or whatever in order to get them to qualify.

With those JCP projects that we get federally, most of the time they conclude just before Christmas and then, of course, there is no income during the Christmas month and that is a problem. You are always trying to find something to help to tie them through. That is an issue, too, that I certainly ask the minister to bring to the table again when he is speaking with HRDC. It is a real issue in my particular area.

Again, I commend and I thank each and every one of you for all of your co-operation and help.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hodder.

Mr. Manning, do you have any further questions?

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Chair.

No, just a closing comment. We realize that the Department of Human Resources and Employment is a department that deals with many of the less fortunate in our Province. Certainly it is a department, I guess, that takes a level of skill and compassion. I know from my own experience in dealing with many people within the department on a regional level in my own district and throughout the minister's office - that was even before you arrived there, Minister, even though you are after -

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I understand where you are coming from.

MR. MANNING: - doing a bang-up job since you got there, according to yourself. It was even before you arrived. We have had great co-operation, my own office, and certainly, as I said, many of the people we are dealing with are the less fortunate in our society.

With that, I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay.

Shall we call the subheads?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Madam Chair, could I just make a closing comment?

I just wanted to say that I am actually proud to work with such a group. I want to say this for the public record, that I have been to many places, I have worked with many groups, with many people, but I have never ever worked with a group such as in HRE. For a large group, they are very, very competent, energetic, compassionate, understanding people. As I said, before I ever came in here as an MHA or as a minister, the office in my district always solved the problem to my satisfaction. It may not have always been to the clients' satisfaction but they did whatever could be done under the rules and regulations and I want to commend the staff of HRE for doing a tremendous job under very challenging circumstances.

Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM CHAIR: I think that certainly is not the majority opinion tonight but the unanimous opinion of everyone here, I would have to say.

MR. MANNING: This will not happen every night, Minister.

WITNESS: Nor might it carry over until tomorrow.

MADAM CHAIR: I think, though, that all of us recognize from our own work as MHAs, when we are in our districts, that the problems that come are usually the most difficult you will ever have to deal with as an MHA, so it is extra-appreciated when the problem is so difficult when you get such timely help.

Madam Clerk, shall we call the subheads for a vote?

MR. MANNING: Do them inclusive, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Pardon me?

MR. MANNING: Do them inclusive, start to finish, instead of naming them all.

MADAM CHAIR: Do them inclusive, start to finish? Okay.

Shall subheads 1.101 to 4.1.03 inclusive carry?

On motion, subheads 1.1.04 through 4.1.03 carried, without amendment.

On motion, Department of Human Resources and Employment, total heads, carried.

On motion the Committee adjourned.