Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lloyd Matthews, MHA for St. John's North, replaces Sandra Kelly, MHA for Gander.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR( Matthews): Order, please!

Welcome back, Minister.

I understand this is a continuation of the Estimates Committee examining the Department of Education's Estimates for the year that did not get completed within the three hour time frame that they had the other day, so there is an extra hour allocated this morning. It could be longer, if you need it, and it could be less if you do not need it. I hope the latter reigns. Having said that, we will ask the Committee to introduce themselves first, for the record. You have to turn on your mike for recording purposes, now and each time you speak thereafter. Then the minister will pick it up from there, with his reintroductions, and we will carry on.

Deputy Chair?

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Fabian Manning, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, MHA for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Kevin Aylward, MHA for St. George's-Stephenville East.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave.

CHAIR: Minister, do you want to reintroduce your staff?

MR. REID: I am Gerry Reid, Minister of Education.

With me, I have Harold Press, Deputy Minister; Gerald Galway, Assistant Deputy Minister; and Jack Thompson, Director of Financial Operations. On my right is Elizabeth Matthews, who is the Director of Communications.

I welcome you all here this morning, on such a beautiful and glorious day.

CHAIR: I am assuming that we will -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: The truth will set you free.

CHAIR: I am assuming that we will just pick up with the Committee with queries for the minister and his staff as opposed to going through the fifteen minute introductory remarks which you had, I guess, at the original meeting. We will dispense of that for you and we will carry on with the questioning, starting with -

MR. REID: I could give a little speech, if you want me to.

CHAIR: Carry on, Tom. We will go with the ten minute allocation and work with that. We will be liberal in our time allocation providing that you are conservative in your questions.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am always conservative, I might add.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to pick up where we left off, I have a few things that I want to clue up on, some of the areas that I did not get a chance to ask some questions on. Just to go to Teaching Services, if we would -

MR. REID: Give us the numbers on those when you are asking questions, will you?

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess 2.1.01.

Minister, we are looking at 160 teachers out of the system. We still have, obviously, more money budgeted. I assume the increase would be as a result of the increase in the benefits and the contract and that sort of thing.

Just in a general sense, 160 teachers, how much of a saving would that be?

MR. REID: I think around $8 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: About $8 million.

MR. REID: We do an average of $50,000, I think.

MR. HEDDERSON: So, there is $8 million being saved and yet, I guess, more has been budgeted. How much more budgeted?

MR. REID: For Teaching Services?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. REID: Around $30 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: About $30 million.

Just to go down to the 2.1.05., School Supplies, Minister, where do we see that the books and the cost of books under this would be? That is back in the other section, is it?

MR. REID: Right here, $6.21 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so there is a decrease in the cost in textbooks, which is what I am looking at?

MR. PRESS: Yes, Tom, there is a slight decrease. Typically, we get allocated approximately $4.5 million for textbooks, and following the Sparkes-Williams report they recommended an additional $5.1 million over three years be spent additionally to implement new curriculum that was on the books that had not had an opportunity to be - so the additional, from the $4.5 million to $6.2 million, is the third and final year of the additional increase for the implementation of new curriculum.

MR. REID: You talked about a decrease?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am just looking under School Supplies, which is 2.1.05.

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think it is something to the effect of $200,000, Minister.

MR. REID: The other thing too, Tom, is that when you bring in a new textbook your biggest outlay of capital is in the first year. Obviously, all you do then is buy the replacement books in following years, so the biggest outlay of capital would be in the first year of the implementation of the new textbooks.

MR. HEDDERSON: As it goes on, because 10 per cent or 20 per cent replacement as we go on.

MR. REID: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, with regard to the supplies - obviously there is the purchase and distribution of textbooks and instructional materials - we have had a lot of, I guess, concerns raised about the cost, not only of textbooks but of the curriculum associated materials.

Just in a general way, what is going to textbooks and what is going to - in particular, I am looking at Harold there. I get a lot of feedback, that they are taking off a lot of materials on copiers and so on. Is that showing up here, or is that showing up in the operating budgets of the school board or whatever?

MR. REID: That would be showing up in the operating for the school -

MR. HEDDERSON: So it is not showing up here, Minister, is what I am saying.

MR. REID: With regard to the cost of textbooks, we subsidize 60 per cent, is it?

MR. PRESS: We subsidize 100 per cent of the cost of textbooks up until Grade 8, and 40 per cent after Grade 8. This $6.1 million is almost entirely for textbooks but there are teacher resources to go along with textbooks in most, if not all, cases, so that money is incorporated here but it a small amount because there are single items for individual teachers.

MR. HEDDERSON: Having said that too, Minister, looking at the textbooks, I know our early intervention program, the KinderStart, that is not going to show up here. I am looking at Harold or the minister. Where would that show up? I know there are materials being purchased, not textbooks but materials.

MR. REID: We supply a kit for each of the children who start the KinderStart Program. We have a little bag that it goes in. We give them some books, some crayons, a pair of scissors and so on, for each individual KinderStart student. It is my understanding that is going over quite well, especially with poorer families. We give them (inaudible).

It is under Literacy. It is under 4.1.01., I think. I think the cost of that was somewhere in the area of $75,000 or $85,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, under Literacy.

MR. REID: I am not sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know there is fed money involved in this too, Minister. Could you just give me a breakdown of.... When I say fed money, I think it is some sort of fund.

MR. REID: KinderStart? One hundred per cent.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is all fed funds, right?

On that too, Minister, obviously these are the materials, I would assume, the kit. I certainly agree with you that this kit is a very valuable tool, but the spinoff of it as well is the implementation of that program. Have you made any provision this year to look at any increase, especially with regard to, I guess, the human resources? Have you looked at it, or any direction that you might be taking there?

MR. REID: Obviously we have looked at it but, if you stop to think about it, the KinderStart program ranges somewhere between eight and ten hours a year. If you look at Avalon East, for example, I don't know how many elementary schools they have. Maybe ten or fifteen.

WITNESS: Avalon East?

MR. REID: Yes.

WITNESS: About forty.

MR. REID: About forty. So if you looked at the KinderStart program alone, it is only 400 hours, maximum, for a year. So if you are talking about - and I know you hear it in the meetings - going out and allocating additional teachers to the KinderStart program, the question you have to ask yourselves is, how many do you need? To put in a teacher in a particular school for the KinderStart program, I think, would not be the best way to allocate a unit or spending in that regard, when you consider it is only in a particular school eight hours a year.

MR. HEDDERSON: I can see your point there. That is not the direction that I was looking at. I know my experience in dealing with the early intervention programs was that it is a time factor. You are displacing the kindergarten students by leaving them home. Not only that, but you are putting some extra responsibilities on the kindergarten - not necessarily the kindergarten, a primary teacher, because someone takes responsibility.

I was thinking, Minister, more in the lines of the allocation of substitute time. Is that a consideration or is there any provision there? Because in working this program, if the kindergarten teacher could be released - I should not say the kindergarten teacher - if a primary teacher or one of the teachers could be released through substitute time, that would certainly alleviate a lot of the extra time or the extra work that particular teacher would have to take into account, and maybe even run the possibility of even keeping your kindergartens. I know it is not a lot of time, but still there is a little disruption.

I am just wondering, are you exploring any of those or is there any provision there now, perhaps, that principals could use where they could avail of some substitute time to free up that primary teacher to even get everything - because I can tell you, it is a good program, Minister, and it works very, very well, but it takes a good deal of work, especially beforehand, in preparing for it. It is not only the ten hours or so during the school time, but in getting ready for that.

MR. REID: I will let the deputy answer your question but, before I do, before the KinderStart program was brought in, a number of schools still did a similar program. I know that my sons went to Brinton and they both had an introduction to kindergarten the year before they went there.

I guess the other thing, when you are talking about having to send kindergarten classes home, that is not the case in all schools, because in some schools they only have one kindergarten class and they are there for half a day so the other half is freed up.

I will let the deputy continue with the explanation of that.

MR. PRESS: One thing about this program, this is a program that came from the bottom up. It was not one that derived its infancy from the department. It is one that came from school boards. Avalon West, the school board with which you are familiar, in fact, has had this program, or a similar program to it, for about ten years, so it is very much within their culture right now to do this. We work in our programs divisions, through our assistant directors of programs for each of the districts. They are the ones who really brought this forward, saw the need for this and actively worked with us to pursue federal funding to make this happen.

Having said that, all we do is provide the tools and resources there for this. It is completely voluntary and it is up to the individual school boards whether or not they want to move forward with this. The feedback that we are getting, other than some that tend to be more publicly focused, has been nothing short of phenomenal. This is extremely useful and working very, very well.

The question about the substitutes is a very good one. It has never been brought forward through our assistant directors. You would not have a substitute during the time when the kindergartens are out and the students are there. The question is: Would we have substitutes for prep time to get ready for this? That would be a huge precedent for us. It has never been asked to us through that group. I will go back and check whether or not it actually was even discussed and so on, but it is certainly an interesting concept. It would set a huge precedent for all other things that we do, whether or not we are going to provide substitutes for prep time for individual teachers.

MR. HEDDERSON: Absolutely. Harold, as a primary principal, I was involved in the early intervention and, I tell you, I do not have to sing the praises of the program. Different school boards and different schools have different ways, and it works very, very well. I think it is not an end. The KinderStart is not an end but a beginning of the program. Like I said, I am just looking for ways to enhance it. One of the ways that I can see is if you could get your primary teacher, sometime - and I do not know if it is precedent setting because if you just look at it in the context of a workshop or whatever, professional development or whatever you want to call it - there is provision there, as you know, to allow that sort of a thing. That is the point I just wanted to make because the materials are good, the kid is good, but the time factor is a big factor as well.

Under Literacy Services - and I did not realize I was jumping over that way. Minister, just to look at the Read and Succeed program. I know in last year's Estimates we had a look at that program, as it was, but I understand - because obviously I am hearing it on the radio - there must be some sort of an extension that has been placed on it. Now, the last count I had was somewhere in the range of $460,000 that was earmarked for the initial program. Again, I stand corrected on that. That is just a ballpark figure for me. You can correct me on that if you like. I know since that time it has been extended. A couple of questions: To what extent funding-wise? Who has the contract? Is it just an extension? Was it a new contract or an extension to the contract and if indeed, I suppose, there are federal funds or is it provincial funds? What is the ratio there?

MR. THOMPSON: With respect to the issue, there was funding that was made available from the federal government. I cannot quantify the specific amount at this point, but I will get that. The money is with the Literacy Council. They are working jointly with the Division of Literacy Service to continue on with this particular campaign.

MR. HEDDERSON: Jack, it was a decision of the Literacy Council as opposed to -

MR. THOMPSON: That may not be exclusively. I am not directly involved in that particular aspect, but it is working with the executive director responsible in the department, as well as the appropriate officials at the Literacy Council. It is a joint effort.

MR. REID: I think, Tom, the amount that is going into that campaign is less than $100,000. It might even be less than $80,000. It was an extension of the existing program and the funds had to be used on that program.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, that is federal money?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is no provincial money going into that, right?

MR. REID: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just out of curiosity again, because -

MR. REID: Further to that, to go out and develop another campaign would have chewed up all the money because it was a relatively small amount.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it was a PR program and obviously an extension indicates that there was success?

MR. REID: Definitely.

MR. HEDDERSON: How was that success quantified, I would ask, and who quantified it?

MR. REID: I will let the officials comment on how that was quantified, but I want to relate to you a question that I had from a person in the media last week concerning literacy in the Province. She said that we have - according to Canadians - the worst literacy rate in the country or the most illiterate students in the country, and it really, really ticked me off. I said: Where did you get this information? On what basis do you make that judgement? She said: Well, you have a Read and Succeed program, why would you have it?

MR. HEDDERSON: The literacy issues, Gerry -

MR. REID: She said: If you do not have the worst literacy rate in the country, why do you have a Read and Succeed Program?

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not think we need to get into the mainland attitudes towards this Province, but your point is certainly well taken.

MR. PRESS: Just on quantification of the results of the success of the PR campaign. There was no form of evaluation done, but we have received countless letters. We have incorporated this within Professional Development. We do it with teachers and so on. We have a stack of correspondence from teachers as a result of this - which is quite literally over an inch high in terms of kudos - in terms of what the results of this has been.

We have a Web site set up where people can go into the Web site and actually ask questions and talk about their experiences in literacy through the campaign and so on. The Web site has been flourishing with activity for the last six to eight months and so on. Our results in literacy have been staggering in terms of improvement in achievement results. In Grade 3 it has been to the magnitude of 200 and 300 per cent - most of that in rural Newfoundland. The most recent results of SAIP - and I do not even know if the minister knows this yet, but the SAIP results for sixteen year olds, which is embargoed data now, shows that our sixteen year olds in writing are achieving at par with the rest of Canada, which is a huge gain for us as a Province.

MR. REID: In addition to that, Tom, I have been out around the Province and everywhere you go you see evidence of this Read and Succeed campaign. In fact, besides the actual ads that you see on TV there have been a number of challenges issued around the Province to children to read books. I had the opportunity about a month ago, or a month-and-a-half ago, to go out to King's Cove in Bonavista Bay where we presented a number of cheques to classes in schools that partook in these campaigns and did very well, even here in St. John's. Where I visited a number of schools - that is the reason I went, to give out prizes and stuff for the number of books that the children have read in a particular school. It is just amazing how many books that these children have read since the campaign came in.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well taken. When it comes to literacy, minister, I do not disagree with you on anything that can encourage people to read as a positive step.

Having said that, I just want to go into one of my other pet peeves, which is -

CHAIR: Tom, before you do that, if you do not mind, could I check with the other members to see how many -

MR. HEDDERSON: Certainly. I will just reserve the right, if I could, to come back.

CHAIR: Mary? No questions.

Kevin?

MR. K. AYLWARD: No. I am learning a lot just from the questions that are being asked by the Opposition here this morning and the answers being given by the officials.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Yes, I agree. They are asking every question that I would have asked. They are doing very good.

That being said, then Tom - Fabian, you do have some questions? Let me allow you the latitude of using the time between yourselves.

MR. HEDDERSON: As you can see, Mr. Chair, how important it was to come back here.

CHAIR: Very important, and we will give you whatever time you need but be gracious to your colleague and defer to him long enough to take your breath and get a drink of water. I will leave it to your two selves to divide up the questioning and the time as you see fit.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will not get another word in edgewise, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Good enough. If you do not get a question in, Fabian, do not look at me.

MR. MANNING: Being gracious, Mr. Chair, is your Tory side coming through.

Mr. Chair, thank you for the -

CHAIR: No, it is just that you are on my right. Just because you are a right winger - you are on my right and I'm a right winger (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Just a couple of questions for clarification, Mr. Chair. I would just like to ask: What is the total number of students in the system today and what is the projected enrollment for September, 2003?

MR. REID: I think right now it is somewhere in the area of 84,000, but next year 80,000. We are losing somewhere between, I guess, 2,500 and 4,000 a year.

MR. MANNING: You are losing around 2,500 or 3,000 a year you said?

MR. REID: Yes, and contrary to what you might think, we are losing them everywhere. Even though we talk about St. John's, in this area, the Northeast Avalon as being a growth area, even here they have lost a considerable number of students this year.

MR. PRESS: Specifically, it is 84,268 for the current year. We are projecting another 3,000-plus to go down. What is interesting, we fully project - and we have been reasonably accurate with our projections up until now - that the numbers will drop below 60,000 in the next seven years. In fact, below 50,000 in five years after that. Even (inaudible), as the minister just said, was currently about 32,000 a year or so ago. That is projected to go down to about 20,000 in the next twelve to thirteen years.

MR. REID: The other thing, when we talk about teacher allocations, the actual teacher allocation formula that Sparkes and Williams came up with, if we were to follow it - and to some degree we did this year - it is based on last September's enrollment and not this September's enrollment. In actual fact, if we had used the formula and based it on what we projected to be in the classroom next September, instead of 378 teachers coming out of the system we would have had more than 500.

MR. MANNING: Questions were raised in the past couple of weeks with regard to the teacher- student ratio based on numbers versus some idea - or get some suggestion that it should be based on some other type of criteria. Has the department given any thought on that?

MR. REID: I have, yes. The thing about it, Fabian, is that there is a misconception out there that we are saving money by taking teachers out of the classroom and putting that money elsewhere, other than education, and that is far from the truth. We calculated - as Tom said earlier - a savings of about $8 million. In actual fact, the $8 million did not come out of education in K to 12. That $8 million, along with probably another $20 million to $30 million, went back into the system.

What I have said - and the Premier said recently - is that if somebody can come forward with a better way of allocating teachers, then lets hear it. Contrary to what my critic said in the paper last week, Mr. Ottenheimer, he talked about it being an archaic formula. Well, the formula was only developed in 1999 or 2000. I always assumed that the word archaic meant old. It is not very old. Prior to that we had the 2 per cent clause, as Tom might remember, and that meant you could only layoff 2 per cent of your teaching population in a given year.

I taught in the old Notre Dame District. We had thirty-three teachers in that system who would have been gone without the 2 per cent clause. Just to give you an example, if you had 100 teachers in a particular school under that system you could only layoff two a year, even if you had no students that year. Even you had lost all your students, you would still end up with ninety-eight teachers in that school. That obviously did not work, and everyone agreed that we needed a new formula, and we hired two prominent educators in the Province, Drs. Sparkes and Williams, and they went out and they came back with a rather complex formula, and we get criticized for using the formula but we haven't used it. Because, had we used the formula, we would have been taking 378 teachers out of the system this year instead of 160.

MR. MANNING: When a school is notified that you have lost one point five units, two point whatever units, whose decision is it - as a matter of fact, yesterday I was asked the question - to determine what positions go, what positions stay, the reconfiguration of the school itself? Is that at the school level or is it at the school board level? I realize that the school board notifies -

MR. REID: Well, it is not at our level. We allocate blocks of teachers to each of the individual boards. The boards then allocate teachers to individual schools. I do not know if that is in consultation with the principals of the schools or the department heads in the schools. I am sure that they do hold discussions with their principals - I would assume that they do - and maybe even the department heads.

MR. MANNING: The reconfiguration of the teachers is what I am concerned about because, you know, you are told that it is -

MR. REID: Yes, but the decision, thought, rests, I guess, ultimately with the board. In the Avalon East, they took most of their units - at least if you listen to the media - from their library resource people. That was a decision they made. They could have taken them from the board office if they so desired, or they could have done other things, as Tom knows, having been a principal himself. I do not know if he taught any classes, but in some schools principals teach some classes themselves, along with the vice-principal, the guidance counsellor and librarians. In other schools, the principals do not teach at all and neither do the vice-principals, guidance counsellors or librarians. So, there is a whole host of ways that you can assign teachers rather than saying that we are pulling them all out here.

MR. MANNING: Is there any emphasis being put on bringing international students to the Province?

MR. REID: Yes. In fact, during Easter, I was supposed to be in Beijing on a trip. By the way, that was going to be paid for entirely by the Chinese government so that would not have made the paper.

The purpose behind that trip would have been that they are introducing in some of the provinces, I think, Newfoundland and Labrador curriculum into some of the schools there, and it was our hope that when these children graduated they would come here to further their education. With regard to other international students, I do not know of any -

MR. PRESS: At the request of a number of boards, we have been asked to have a look at our policy on international students with a view to increasing the tuition; simply that our tuition is quite low now. It is at $5,500 when, in most other provinces now, the international student fees are around $8,000 to $10,000. In fact, in one province they are $11,000. So we have, in consultation with our school boards, agreed to look at the policy and recommend tuition that is more in line with other provinces and enable them, with their local RED boards, look at recruiting students from other places in the world. So there are a number of activities.

I know the West Coast School Board, District # 3, are working with the local Humber alliance and so on. Plus, you have the two boards on the Avalon Peninsula and the Burin Peninsula School Board working together. They are going to work together, which is actually a good thing, rather than having boards going off in different directions. They are working together to look at recruiting students from several parts of the world to come in.

MR. MANNING: How many students are bused in the Province each day?

MR. REID: I will let someone else tell you how many, but I can tell you the cost.

MR. MANNING: That is the next question.

MR. REID: I think it is $31 million.

MR. THOMPSON: Right now, we are transporting approximately, I would say, in the range of 40,000 to 50,000 students and the cost is in the vicinity of $31 million to $33 million.

MR. MANNING: As, I guess, there is amalgamation left in some parts of the Province, do you see an increase percentage wise? I realize the student numbers are going to be down, but do you see an increase percentage wise as to how many students are going to be bused in the future and the cost associated with that versus what it is today?

MR. REID: I do not know. Maybe -

MR. THOMPSON: To answer your question, the trend has been, depending on how the school system is reconfigured within the districts, or among the districts, that, as well as the capacity on the existing vehicles, and as well the associated costs just increased from board owned versus contracted services, there are a number of variables that actually influence the cost and the operations each year.

MR. REID: Further to that, Fabian, I will you an example of where it is not going - even though we are consolidating a number of schools around the Province, there are areas like my own on New World Island where it is not going to have any impact whatsoever on the busing because I would say the vast majority - we are closing four schools and opening one new one on New World Island. All the kids were always bused to school down there because there are nineteen communities on New World Island. In actual fact, it will have no impact on the busing in that area. We will not save any money and we will not pay out any more.

MR. MANNING: The age limit of buses has been a concern, I guess, for a number of years now, certainly as it relates to different parts of Canada. I think the age limit here now is thirteen, thirteen years.

MR. REID: Fourteen, I think it is.

MR. MANNING: Fourteen years? Okay.

Certainly, a few months back now, there was some grave concern about the number of inspections that were carried out and some problems that arose. My understanding is, as an example, in Ontario the age limit is ten years, is it? Ten or eleven, I believe. Has there been any consideration given by the department for decreasing the age or increasing the age, whatever way you want to look at it, in relation to the buses on the roads in our own Province? Certainly it has been a concern that has been raised by parents and, I guess, people within the school system itself.

MR. REID: We hear sometimes about problems with buses, but all of these buses are checked both by board - they are all inspected, I think, maybe three - at least, I think, three - times a year each by certified individuals. I know maybe the bus you are talking about up on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I think that one was checked four or five times this year.

MR. MANNING: The concern that has been raised with me is that you have inspections of buses that are carrying school children, as you said, three or four times a year and sometimes more, but there is - I know it has happened in my own district in a couple of cases and has been brought to my attention, that students are going out on a field trip, we will call it, and they are going to St. John's for the day. They can charter a bus in the area, not necessarily one of the local contractors that is serving the school system but just a person who has a bus parked in the yard. That bus heads in over the Trans-Canada with forty to fifty students in her, and basically it is not up to par in relation to busing the children to the school system. It is just that the person has a bus parked in the yard. It is a major safety issue that has been raised with me on a couple of occasions. When I inquired about it, there did not seem to be any rules or regulations to deal with it. Now, maybe somebody missed the point there but can anyone elaborate on that for me?

MR. REID: First of all, we have roughly 1,000 buses in the fleet; 300 of them are owned by boards. These are all fairly new. The other 700 are contracted out.

With regard to the particular one that you are talking about - if that were to happen - I cannot imagine that there is any bus out there transporting anybody that has not had the bus inspected. If, for example, a particular school or a school board is leasing a bus that has been parked in a yard and it has not been inspected, I cannot imagine any principal allowing his students to go on a bus that was pulled out of someone's backyard and shoved into the system to take them over the highway. If that bus in on the highway, I would assume that bus has to be inspected and be up to standard.

MR. MANNING: It just seems to me that there does not seem to be a control on that from a school board level. When the issue was raised with me, it seemed like there were no rules or regulations to deal with it within the school system. It seemed like it -

MR. REID: I would assume that any bus that operates in this Province has to be regularly inspected. I just cannot imagine pulling any bus out of a yard and being able to take anyone, whether it be students or senior citizens. I cannot imagine that those vehicles are allowed to be on the highway unless they are inspected regularly.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

MR. HEDDERSON: Jut to talk about busing for a minute, because we are fresh off the heels of my colleague speaking about it, the busing certainly is changing, as the minister has indicated and as Jack has indicated as well. I am not so much interested in the contracts but the distances. Is anyone tracking the increase or decrease in distances that school buses are travelling?

MR. THOMPSON: To answer your question, yes. We do get information from the school boards on an annual basis in regard to the kilometres that are driven on each vehicle annually. Yes, there obviously is an increase as consolidations do take place, and it does vary from district to district.

MR. HEDDERSON: The special transportation is always a big area because it is certainly catering to a very special group of students. One of the areas that is coming through is that I know I hear from contractors that they have to put a great outlay in money towards those special buses, but I also know that there have been private individuals who are contracting out for these same services. What is the trade-off? Is there any breakdown of that? How many situations do we have where private individuals are transporting students in the Province?

MR. REID: I do not know the exact number, Tom. Maybe one of the officials can comment when I am finished, but in some areas you have to.

MR. HEDDERSON: You have to, yes, I know that.

MR. REID: In my own district again - and the only reason I mention my own district is, obviously I am more familiar with that than I am any other area of the Province - we have two, that I am aware of, special needs children: one on New World Island and one on Twillingate Island, and private vehicles are being used, but these vehicles have to meet certain standards because the school board actually goes out and asks for a proposal, or they tender it. Therefore, I guess in rural and remote areas of the Province it would be individual rather than company owned.

MR. HEDDERSON: On that matter as well. With regard to the tendering, responsibility of the school board, responsibility of the department. What I say is that if there is a tender put out for wheelchair transportation, for an example, because obviously that is where you have to be able to roll on and roll off, strap downs and all these sorts of things.

With regard to putting out that tender, is it tendered by the department? Is it tendered by a board?

MR. THOMPSON: In answer to your question, it is tendered by the board. It is based on the needs that are required for the student for the transportation that needs to be provided, and in compliance with government purchasing guidelines, as well as on special need transportation, the Canadian safety standards, D-450. So they are prescribed by the board in consultation with the public tender regulations and then an awarded based on the assessment of the bids.

MR. HEDDERSON: Jack, is there anything in the way of - let's say if I were to put in a tender to transport a child in a wheelchair. Is anyone going to inspect my vehicle, look at the vehicle, or is it just going to be a paper thing in the hopes that everything will be fine?

MR. THOMPSON: In answer to your question, the specifics that are placed in the advertisements clearly indicate the type of vehicle that is required to provide this service and the requirement to meet specific standards, licencing, inspections and what have you.

With respect to the inspection of that vehicle, that is done on a fairly frequent basis by the motor vehicle inspectors from Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the tender would be let. Would there be a specific inspection or would that just be left to the regular routine?

MR. THOMPSON: The specific contract, once it is signed with the operator of the vehicle, it clearly stipulates that the vehicle has to meet the specific specifications as outlined. As far as the inspections are concerned, it has to be done obviously by a person who is confident to ensure that it complies with the specific standards, and this is where we rely heavily on the people from Motor Vehicle.

MR. REID: I cannot imagine, Tom, any board letting a contract to someone unless they had proof that the vehicle had been inspected properly - proof of inspection.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, minister, I just had a case where I thought there was some manipulation that it was put out. Again, this is not a place to bring it up. I already brought it up with your department. I just wanted to get a sense as to whether or not anything has changed.

MR. PRESS: We do not do inspections. We do not have the facilities, the personnel or the skill set to do those inspections in the districts. We rely on the proof of the inspections and so on. As long as they comply with that and get inspections on a regular basis from licensed and qualified mechanics who can do those inspections, then that is all we can do, assume that they do. Sometimes you get inspected and the next day something else happens. That could happen, but it is tightly monitored and they have to work with Work, Services and so on to get these inspected on a regular basis. The documentation that we receive is not the actual inspection itself.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Literacy Endowment Fund, what is the status on that now? I thought I had a copy of the report this morning but I just want to - because that endowment fund, my understanding was, it was going to be matched through some fundraising. I understand that the Chair has changed since that time. The Literacy Endowment Fund, I think it was something to the tune, Harold, of $2 million or something that was supposed to be matched? That was about two years ago. I just want the status of it and the direction that it is going in.

MR. PRESS: They have a committee set up, including a number of private entrepreneurs, who will look at raising funds and so on. The slowness of it has been because it has to have charitable status before it can march on and start fundraising and so on. It is still in the process. I understand it takes about eight months and now it is about eight months. We fully expect charitable status for that funding committee within days, weeks, hopefully no longer than that. Once they have charitable status then they can officially go out and raise monies to match the endowment fund.

MR. HEDDERSON: The they you are talking about is the Literacy Council?

MR. PRESS: No, it is basically a public-private sector group set up to - a number of business leaders throughout the Province and so on who have an interest in and passion for literacy who have been brought together to look at ways and means by which to raise money for literacy.

MR. HEDDERSON: My time is just running out, so I am just jumping a little bit.

A couple of points here, back to the bussing. Minister, it has been about five years and I assume that a lot of the contracts are coming up this year. Am I wrong in assuming that? I just hear that there are a fair number of contracts that are running out. Is any provision made, because what I am looking at is that a lot of the contracts originally were tied in for three, four, five years with the stipulation that you could renew on the same basis and go forward. A lot of these contracts now are five, six years old and I am just wondering with the rising cost of insurance and whatever, can we expect, for example, in this year to see a dramatic increase in contracts, cost of contracts? Is there any provision to put into our budgeting to account for that?

MR. PRESS: You are right, most of them are on a cycle. Most of them are around a three-year cycle but they do not all come to fruition at the same time. So each year you might have any number of contracts which might come up. But you are quite right, with the rising fuel costs and maintenance costs and so on, that the contract you had three years ago may in fact - the lowest bidder may come in competitively higher than three years ago.

All we do is to try and estimate, through the number of contracts that are likely to come in, what is the estimated cost based on present values and projected future values of those contracts. We do not expect a huge blimp here but we do expect moderate increases.

MR. HEDDERSON: So no different, Harold, than any other year is what you are saying, right?

MR. PRESS: It should not be.

MR. HEDDERSON: One of the jewels, I guess, of our system and one that your department is directly responsible for is the School for the Deaf. Now, I know that it looks like the same amount of funding is going towards it this particular year but you always hear rumblings, minister, about direction. We do know that the numbers are decreasing. I do not know what the projection is, I am sure, if you look at it over the next few years. Again, I just want to get a sense, minister, if I could, as to - obviously, you are always monitoring the situation. You are directly responsible, but could you just give us some sense as to where the department is on this and, of course, certainly the government with regard to where you are going with that particular facility?

MR. REID: As you said, it is one of the jewels in our crown and it is a great facility. My understanding is that we have a lot of people employed there. I think we have roughly thirty teachers, am I right?

WITNESS: About twenty-five.

MR. REID: Twenty-five teachers, and we have roughly fifty-five students out there. That does not take into account, as well, the number of people who work there. It is staffed twenty-four hours a day. It is a great facility and we have no intentions of downgrading it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, we are getting on to 11:00 o'clock so I will let it go there. I do not know if any of my colleagues want (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you, Tom.

Fabian, any further questions?

MR. MANNING: No further questions, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Kevin?

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) questions. I will wait to talk to the minister (inaudible)

CHAIR: Roland?

MR. BUTLER: No.

CHAIR: Okay, there being no further questions we are ready to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I have two sets of minutes here that we need to deal with: Minutes for April 9 and April 29 meetings respectively. I will take them separately. Motion to accept the Minutes of April 9 of the Social Services Committee.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Motion to accept the Minutes of April 29.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Committee, and thank you very much, minister. I will ask for a motion of adjournment.

On motion, Committee adjourned.