The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Wiseman): (Inaudible) 9:05 a.m. We were scheduled to start at 9:00 a.m. and now that we have a forum we will proceed.

Members of the Committee, you have before you there - before we start the Estimates - the minutes of the committee meeting last night dealing with the Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment. Could I have a motion to accept those minutes?

MR. PARSONS: So moved.

CHAIR: Is there a seconder for that motion?

MR. JACKMAN: Seconded.

CHAIR: Seconded.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: We have accepted the minutes of last night's committee meeting dealing with Human Resources, Labour and Employment.

Welcome, minister, to you and your staff. This morning we are dealing with the Budget Estimates for the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Just by way of procedural things, minister, what we have done historically is provide an opportunity for you to have some opening comments and to introduce your staff and then we open the floor for some questions and discussion. From a procedural pont of view, what we have done to accommodate everybody's interest in participating, we have generally started with the person who is the critic for this particular department and it is the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune. He will be sitting in today for the Member for Port de Grave and he will start the questions. What we have done is rotated through the members of the committee, providing about fifteen minutes for each person and then we rotate through. So, with that said, I will now start the proceedings.

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

I will carry it to you, minister, for your opening comments.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and committee members.

I am certainly pleased to be here this morning with the staff to answer any questions you might have; any that we cannot answer, we will certainly get the information for you in due course.

I would like to introduce the staff here this morning: Ramona Cole to my right, Assistant Deputy Minister of Municipal Support services; Baxter Rose, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Policy and Planning. I have to apologize for Wayne Churchill, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Engineering Services, he has been off ill the past few days, so we will have to make do. Ken Curtis behind me, Manager of Financial Operations; and Vanessa Coleman-Sadd to my left, Communications.

I just have a few comments I would like to read first and then we can get into it. Since I became Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs six months ago, I have met with over 100 municipalities and organizations. I have heard concerns regarding a wide range of issues, many of which I am familiar with. I feel that my background as a mayor of a small town is incredibly beneficial to me, now that I am in this new position. Everyone knows that Budget 2004 made some very tough decisions. At the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs we also had to make some tough decisions, most notably a reduction in the Municipal Operating Grants for fourteen municipalities. We have reduced these unconditional grants by $5 million over three years, with the first reduction of $2.1 million to come effective in January 2005.

Fourteen municipalities will be affected. They are: St. John's, Mount Pearl, Conception Bay South, Paradise, Grand Falls-Windsor, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's, Gander, Torbay, Corner Brook, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Bay Roberts, Labrador City, Clarenville and Carbonear. In making this decision we had to take into account several factors. First of all, all municipalities in this Province are not on an equal footing in terms of fiscal capacity and financial stability. An increased assessed value of these municipalities, which when used in connection with an assumed ten mil rate, show that they generated more than $100,000 in new tax revenue. The MOGs for the affected municipalities presently total $10.8 million. The total annual budget of these municipalities is $272.5 million. The $2.1 million grant adjustment represents a budget reduction for them of less than 1 per cent, on average.

Many small, rural towns are challenged by declining populations and shrinking tax bases while some larger centres are experiencing significant tax growth. I have been paying attention to what many municipalities have been saying about this reduction since the Budget was brought down and, for that matter, concerns which were raised before the Budget.

The criticism that the Province is clawing back either the GST rebate or the proposed fuel tax is just not true. In fact, revenue growth plus GST is substantially more than a municipal operating grant reduction. The department started looking for reductions before either were announced. However, there were some very positive moves for the municipalities in our Budget. The department is pleased to continue the Municipal Debt Relief Program. An additional $9 million has been allocated to substantially relieve the capital debt burden on those municipalities which qualify.

For 2004-05, the program will help some twenty-five rural towns substantially relieve their capital debt burden. This commitment to the Municipal Debt Relief Program recognizes the financial position that many of our rural municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador find themselves in. This is one step government can take to strengthen our rural communities so they can take charge of their futures once again.

Also, municipal infrastructure improvements will continue with total expenditures to be maintained at around $80 million in 2004-2005. The department manages the Multi-Year Capital Works, the Municipal Capital Works and the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Programs to cost share various projects with municipal and federal governments. Many of these projects include water and sewer upgrades, as well as improvements to municipal buildings, recreational facilities, firefighting equipment and roads. Often municipalities would not be able to afford these projects without the help of these cost-shared programs. Reliable infrastructure is key for many municipalities, especially in rural areas, to become vibrant and strong. Infrastructure promotes job creation, which in turn will strengthen our economy.

Government is pleased with this funding commitment. However, the status of certain projects which were previously announced but had not been undertaken will be subject to review and there may be some reallocation of funding among projects. Just last week I announced that the tenders for municipal capital works projects are projected to exceed $100 million in 2004.

Approximately 260 capital works projects across Newfoundland and Labrador, at a total cost of $100 million, will create up to 60,000 personal weeks of direct and indirect employment. These projects are providing residents of our Province with important employment and it will help strengthen the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The provincial government will contribute approximately $52 million towards completion of these projects. Municipal governments will contribute about $38 million, with the balance of $10 million to be funded by the federal government.

The aim of the department is to help municipalities become more independent. One of the greatest challenges they face is providing the best possible service for the best possible price for their residents.

I am very pleased that to help in this goal I officially proclaimed the Regional Service Boards Act in February. This was a piece of legislation which had been on the books and not proclaimed for twelve years. The act allows government to formally establish regional authorities in municipalities which desire to work together to provide improved municipal services. The legislative framework now exists, for example, to establish the governance model which is essential to the delivery of waste management - a significant issue in many parts of our Province.

We need to change our thinking about the structure and organization of government services. By consolidating many municipal services, including sewage disposal systems, firefighting, water supplies and solid waste disposal sites, many municipalities, as well as the provincial government, can achieve significant savings.

At this time there are already several different arrangements and collaborations that are taking place across the Province to deliver joint municipal services, including solid waste management. One of the best examples is the commitment from the City of St. John's, the City of Mount Pearl, and the Town of Paradise to clean up the St. John's Harbour. However, there are also arrangements across the Province which are uneven. It has been rather selective with some municipalities opting to collaborate, while others choosing not to participate in collective municipal efforts.

Every region of the Province has different issues with regards to regionalization of services. However, there are a couple of things which I cannot stress enough when it comes to the regionalization of services. Government is not interested in forcing municipalities to enter into arrangements which they do not want. These authorities will only work in regions where they are wanted and where they will work effectively. Also, this is no way amalgamation. In fact, regionalization is a realistic alternative to amalgamation.

In conclusion, the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs supports our Province's municipalities. We want to make our communities more self-reliant. We believe that our municipalities are the backbone of this great Province, Newfoundland and Labrador.

The department provides substantial financial support; infrastructure development; legislative tools for municipalities; training for elected and appointed officials to ensure greater professionalism at the local government level; partnering with stakeholders, such as the Federation of Municipalities, Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Municipal Administrators, the Association of Fire Chiefs and Firefighters and the Combined Councils of Labrador.

I hope this introduction gives you a broad overview of the direction that Municipal and Provincial Affairs is taking. I welcome your questions and comments.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We will open it to the Committee members.

The Opposition critic for Municipal Affairs, the Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am sitting in for one of the other members this morning. Mr. Butler is not going to be here. He has an appointment. I am glad to be here and to sit across from people that I worked with over the last number of years. They displayed professionalism then and I am sure you will do the same today.

I will not get into the nitty-gritty of the department at the beginning. I just want to get some overall views of where they are. We have, of course, the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program that is on the last phase of it now, the last one that we had.

The Capital Works Program this year, how much new money, in 2004-2005, did the provincial government put into the program? I know you were saying in your statement, you made in the House, that $52 million of the106 was by the Province, thirty-eight by the municipalities and ten by the federal government. I know some of the agreements in the Multi-Year Capital Works Program are all tied in, but how much new money for capital works is in 2004-2005?

MR. J. BYRNE: Really, there is not any at this point in time because, of course, as you would know, the previous Administration allocated all the funds for the three-year program under the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program, the Multi-Year Program and Capital Works. All the money has been allocated in the first sixteen months of the previous Administration for the three years. So what I am doing now, what the department is looking at, is some of the projects that were committed to, have a look at them and possibly either defer or cancel, based upon if they can get it done this year and try to free up some money to reallocate.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

I know - like in my own situation, I will not go into any detail with it, but I know there were two projects that the municipalities had heard from which were cancelled on. Like I said, I will not get into individual projects here now but I will have an opportunity to come and visit with you over the next little while to talk about these individual ones.

On the water improvement, the chlorination and things like that, how many communities have we been able to assess in that particular program and how much money has been done over the past number of years?

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you talking about the Disinfection Assistance Program?

MR. LANGDON: Yes, the Disinfection Program.

MR. J. BYRNE: From memory, on that one - let me think. I think approximately seventy-something. I would have to check to confirm that figure, but from reading the briefing notes in the department - Wayne is not here to answer that specifically, but we can get you that answer, that is not a problem.

MR. LANGDON: Okay. And that program is still continuing?

MR. J. BYRNE: There has been no money allocated for it this year, but, again, in situations whereby an emergency arises we will certainly deal with it on that type of a basis at this point in time, again, because of course the money has been all previously allocated.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I understand that.

The seventy-seven communities that have been done, I think there are more than that, though, if you look at what is completed and what is about to be done, because what I am looking at is that only recently there was a release by, I guess it is the Department of Environment who looks after water quality and so on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: They were saying that they still had 280 boil orders, I think it was.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MR. LANGDON: That struck me as a lot of boil orders. I know that it is only a small percentage of the population, probably less than 10 per cent, but I thought that by having these communities with the water quality program that we put in place, there would not have been as many as these.

MR. J. BYRNE: As you know, many of those boil orders are based on the fact that there is no chlorination for those sites. It is something that we do not want to have in place with respect to that many boil orders, but at this point in time that is the situation in the Province.

MR. LANGDON: I remember last year - some of the officials would know that - we were working I think it was with the Department of Environment and Conservation now, because many of those 280 - that is what struck me - could very well be private wells, and because they are not chlorinated then they would be counted, but I thought we were going to work out some kind of arrangement with that. I wonder if that is done or is it still continuing, or if is it not done?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is ongoing, from my understanding, at this point in time, ongoing with the Department of Environment.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

On the other thing, it was good to see the continuation of the (inaudible) debt, I guess, restructuring for the small municipalities. I think up to last year we had spent something like $50 million and there was $9 million that you continued with to have in the Budget. Will that take care of all of the communities that are left now?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think it was, again from memory, somewhere around $47 million that had been previously spent, and the $9 million included this year is looking at twenty-five more municipalities. Again, there is probably more out there that could use some help but we are looking at the municipalities now that are in the most desperate situation and try to assist those in varying degrees.

As you know, some municipalities would get more funding than others, depending on their financial situation.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I understand that.

One of the other things that I am wondering where it is, if it probably fell through, or did not fall through or whatever, Port Union-Catalina and Melrose, was it?

MR. J. BYRNE: Melrose, that is right. Catalina was involved in the beginning.

MR. LANGDON: Right, and Little Catalina did not want to be a part of it. Is there anything being done to bring them together?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is in the process, actually. Hopefully, that is going to happen in the very near future. Some of the $9 million that we have for debt relief will go towards paying down their debt to bring them together, the three communities that you mentioned.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is actively being pursued and that should be happening in the not-too-distant future. They have agreed to do it; they want to do it. I was talking to the member out there, and that is looking pretty positive for happening in the near future.

MR. LANGDON: Little Catalina is still not -

MR. J. BYRNE: They are still not on side but we are hoping, of course, once the three communities come together - of course, Little Catalina is a bit further away; they are not clumped together - that they would see the benefits of coming together with the three and have one town, but at this point in time it is just the three.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

The other thing - we were doing some work also, preliminary work, I might add, on the Fogo situation. Is that continuing? Is that report being done, or is nothing going to happen there?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Fogo situation - what is his name, Best?

MR. LANGDON: Fred.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fred. We have asked him to give us a final report on the situation in Fogo. It seems to me that is a pretty tangly situation. We are waiting on his report. I requested not too long ago if he could give us a final report; go meet, once again, with the communities involved and give us a report and some recommendations. I am hoping to have that in the not-too-distant future also.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

In the budget itself, Services to Municipalities, on page 238, I guess, subheads 2.2.01 and 2.2.02, I see there has been a substantial reduction, I guess, in Salaries in Policy and Planning and Urban and Rural Planning. Have there been people who have retired or moved out of the department in that? If so, who? For example, I am thinking about when Stan Clinton was there. Are these people still there now?

MR. J. BYRNE: Stan is still there, and others. There are some in the department, as far as I understand, who have been around for quite some time. Of course, it is up to those people to decide when they are going to retire. That difference in reduction is based upon the assumption that there will be some retiring within the department.

MR. LANGDON: But there are no numbers yet?

MR. J. BYRNE: Not concrete ones, until someone puts in their resignation or they decide to retire. That is anticipating some retirements.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

Can you give me an approximate number that you are looking at?

MR. J. BYRNE: Retiring?

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who would know that one?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Two people there.

MR. LANGDON: Two people?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, one in Policy and Planning and one in Urban and Rural Planning.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

I will leave that for now, Mr. Chair. Probably somebody else would want to -

CHAIR: Thank you.

The hon. the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just out of curiosity, before I get going, were the members introduced on the other side of the Committee? I am just curious.

CHAIR: That is twice I have done that, actually. I apologize for that.

The Member for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune (inaudible) the other members of the Committee if they would introduce themselves before we go any further.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You are quite right, Minister. He thinks, because he sees us every day, that everybody knows us.

I am Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for Labrador West.

MR. LANGDON: Oliver Langdon, MHA for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.

MR. LEWIS: Andy Lewis, Opposition Research.

MR. JACKMAN: Clyde Jackman, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for Conception Bay South and Holyrood.

CHAIR: Kevin O'Brien will be sitting in for Kathy Goudie, the Member for Humber Valley, and will be joining us shortly.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. I just wanted to make sure that everybody knew everyone, that is all.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Good morning, Minister and staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good day.

MR. PARSONS: Just a couple of general questions from myself, to start off.

On page 240 of the Estimates, I notice we have a reference there in subhead 3.1.01. The total for Debt Servicing is about $31 million there, and if we go to page 241 I note we also have about $35 million that is being used for Municipal Infrastructure. That is towards principal owing on Municipal Infrastructure projects relating to water and sewer systems, road construction, et cetera. One is for the Debt Servicing and the other one is for the principal payments, it looks like, totalling about $66 million for this year for those charges.

We are also dealing in the House with Bill 15, the Local Authority Guarantee Act, which deals with funding that has been provided, or I should say funding and loans by municipalities themselves.

MR. J. BYRNE: Since 2001, I believe. That is it there, isn't it?

MR. PARSONS: That is correct.

There are dozens and dozens of communities in our Province listed in Bill 15 who have received loans from their financial institutions which the government has guaranteed under the Local Authority Guarantee Act.

What I am trying to do here by referencing these two items of Debt Servicing and principal payments as well as Bill 15 is to get an idea as to the total involvement of your department, or the government at least, pursuant to such things as Bill 15 of the debt owing.

We know it is $66,000 annually, or this year at least, for Debt Servicing and principal payments. O of all the towns referenced in Bill 15, what is the total amount of all the loans that all of these communities have had? What do they total, that the government is guaranteeing?

MR. J. BYRNE: I believe it is $275 million.

MS COLE: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

We guarantee it during the actual construction phase, from what Ramona says, but the figure I have in my mind is $275 million. What is in that one there, the total on that? I do not have it in front of me.

MR. PARSONS: That is what I am saying. There are millions and millions of dollars referenced here. I do not know if this was at the time it was initially taken out, I do not know if it was only during the construction phase, I do not know if these figures vary. I would assume the guarantee varies as the communities pay down their debt.

MR. J. BYRNE: Ramona?

MS COLE: I would just like to make a comment there.

Basically, during the construction phase of any capital works project, we provide a government guarantee for the town's share and our own share. The town goes to the bank and takes out the whole amount as they are doing the work. Once that is capitalized, we put our share back into NMFC, which is what the debt charges are here in the Estimates. Municipalities then refinance at the completion stage. We do not provide a guarantee then, so most of the loans that they would have out with the banks would not even be guaranteed by government. They are taking those on, on their own initiative.

MR. PARSONS: My question is: What is the total of all of these that the government is currently guaranteed for all of these municipalities?

MS COLE: We can get that, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The figure that I first used, which was $275 million, I think that is the answer. I am pretty sure of that, but we can confirm it for you.

MR. PARSONS: As Ms Cole says, it is only during the construction phase and I guess that would vary from year to year depending on what is constructed or not constructed, and new initiatives undertaken from year to year. I am just trying to understand how it works. It so happens that what you are paying Debt Servicing on for this fiscal year is the amount referenced in subhead 3.1.01.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS COLE: That is government's share.

MR. PARSONS: That is government's share.

MS COLE: Once the projects are completed, we bring our share back to NMFC and borrow it through NMFC.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

(Inaudible) government's share of paying the Debt Servicing on your share of the initiative, but when it gets to this point there is no guarantee because, by the time it gets into you Debt Servicing it here, it would have come out of the guarantee stage because the construction would have been complete, so the municipalities are paying for their loans on their own at that time.

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Once you get to that point.

MR. PARSONS: Can you explain to me again, educate me, as to how the Municipal Financing Corporation - that is what you referenced here - when community X, for example, gets a loan of $1 million, say there is a project worth $1 million and it was done on a 70/30 basis, for example, 70 per cent community and 30 per cent province, it goes through the construction phase, you have guaranteed the whole part when it started, during the construction phase, took a year to do it, and at the end of the year the town has gone off and gotten their 70 per cent financed with their bank now and they are on their own, you have 30 per cent and you have to pay the Debt Servicing on that, so you do not keep it in the department, I take it. You take all of that liability, then, that you have and put it off to a separate financing corporation called the Municipal Financing Corporation. That is how it works?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MR. PARSONS: What is the purpose of having it separate, as a Municipal Financing Corporation, rather than being a division of the department?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question.

That is the way it was set up years ago, and it has followed through on that. The Municipal Financing Corporation takes responsibility for it, and the government, indirectly, is responsible for the total debt.

Even for the municipalities, I suppose, if you have a municipality out there that has a $1 million debt on water and sewer and they go bankrupt, the Province could be actually on the hook for it, I would think.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No legal commitment, no. This can get complicated. It has the effect, then -

MR. PARSONS: That comment, again, that is my concern then, because that would be different than what Ms Cole is saying. If the project is completed -

MR. J. BYRNE: Not legally responsible, but, from my perspective, if you have a town out there that is going to owe $1 million and they go bankrupt and the government decides to handle it, then we are in a no win situation here because if we handle it then other towns may decide to do the - do you know what I mean?

MR. PARSONS: Yes, but what I am saying is that, according to what I understand, if the project was done, if it was completed and the town owed $700,000 on that $1 million project and they go bankrupt, there is no obligation to government because you have not guaranteed that $700,000. Is that right?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: You are only on the hook for your 30 per cent, in that example.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MR. PARSONS: I cannot understand, what is the legal, logical reason for having the Municipal Financing Corporation separate from the department?

MR. J. BYRNE: It is a good question that has not been addressed. I do not think I ever asked that question myself when I was over there, but I think you really want to direct that question to the Minister of Finance. There has to be a legitimate reason for that.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good point, a good question.

MR. PARSONS: I would think if it was all in one clearing house, instead of having ten different government agencies going off to negotiate loans, we would have it all in one clearing house and you would be negotiating -

OFFICIAL: Finance would handle it.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Department of Finance, again, the same people within the Department of Finance would handle this. That bill you are talking about there, the Loan Guarantee Act, that is under the Department of Finance. The former minister might have an answer for that, but to me it is a good question.

MR. PARSONS: Maybe Ms Cole could check it out and give us -

MR. J. BYRNE: We will check on it and get an answer for you.

MS COLE: I have no idea why there is a separate corporation. It has been in effect for a long time, long before I ever came with the department. I have questioned it myself, actually, over the years. The money is actually invested and borrowed using the same people in the Department of Finance who do the government's total borrowing. There are not actually two separate groups of people. It is just that the money for the municipalities goes through the separate corporation but it is actually administered by the same division in Finance, the same group of people in the Department of Finance, so they could probably answer your question.

MR. PARSONS: The reason I am wondering if you would ask is because we are gone past the Estimates for Finance.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, we can find out for you. That is not a problem.

MR. PARSONS: I just wanted an assurance that I would get an answer. I would not want the Minister of Finance saying: Sorry, you never asked that question of Finance. I was not at Finance. I will probably get an opportunity in the Concurrence Debate to ask the Minister anyway.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good point, though, that you just mentioned. Years ago, when the municipalities wanted to borrow, they would borrow through the Municipal Financing Corporation and not the private banks. When the previous Administration brought in the Debt Relief Program to pay down some of the debt of the municipalities, and tried to get them to refinance through the banks, really it was taking the responsibility and the total debt from the Province and basically distributing it to the municipalities. That is one of the reasons for that.

MR. PARSONS: That would make sense. It was originally set up to be a lending body.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, it was, but it never changed.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

Under your Estimates, and in fact under all departments' Estimates - and I have asked this question of all the departments; it saves a lot of time getting into the nitty-gritty details - you notice, for example, on page 235, the Minister's Office, subhead 1.1.01, it makes a reference in the heading 01. to Salaries, $191,000, and that is the same throughout. Down further under Executive Support there is another Salaries heading, and as we go on over to Administrative Support there is a Salaries heading. The same thing on page 237, under Support to Municipalities, there is a Salaries heading. That is all the way through.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: To save time and the detail we have asked, and I will ask again, in conjunction with this as well, there is a departmental salaries manual which takes that salary component referenced in the Estimates book and breaks it out and gives a listing of every position. Could you provide us with a copy, based upon the departmental salaries list, and could you tell us exactly which positions in here for your department, under all of these different headings, are permanent, are temporary, are filled at the current time, are vacant?

MR. J. BYRNE: We can supply that information to you. That is not a problem.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, but we specifically want to make - not only do we have the list here. Mostly, we requested that the list be told: who is permanent, who is temporary, are there any vacancies at the present time. In some cases, for example, there are vacancies that you have there in case you have to fill them but, being prudent, obviously if you do not need them you will not be filling them.

We are trying to get some idea on which of those vacant positions you anticipate might remain vacant and which ones do you know, for example, we are definitely going to need to fill that one but we will not need to do it until fall or whatever; if you could give us that type of information.

Furthermore, if you could tell us, when you compare last year's departmental salary detail sheet with all of those bodies and positions, could you tell us what is different this year from last year? What positions no longer exist in your department?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think there are 119 positions in the department, are there not? One hundred and nineteen or 114. I think there are 119, but positions. Now, there may be some -

MS COLE: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. There may be some vacancies there.

MR. PARSONS: Most departments have a situation where they have said, we do not have this any more. There are three or four positions in the department that we just do not have. If you compare last year's budget to this one, we just do not have them.

We are just trying to get an idea of how many of those it is, so we get some accuracy. That way we will know what has changed since last year because they are laid off or whatever, retired, or attrition has taken effect, and vice versa. Also, we will know who is there this year and what ones are vacant or not vacant.

MR. J. BYRNE: In this department I will tell you, though, that there were no layoffs when they did the most recent announcement of the 217. There were none in the department, except one that was basically seconded from Government Services, so technically it would have been from Government Services and not the department. There are some temporary positions that are probably coming due; their contract is going to be up in the near future.

OFFICIAL: Well, they will probably be extended now for another six months because they are related to the flood damage. That is (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, yes. They are related to the flood damage and may be extended for another six months. Other than that, those are the changes in staff within that department.

MR. PARSONS: That is the kind of detail we would like to have, if they are temporary and they are contractual, going to be terminating in June, July, September or whatever.

Also, Minister, as you know, this is all part of the budget process that we are going through here. The Estimates that we are doing here today is only one part of the whole process that goes on in the House and goes on in these committees and, at the end of the day, we come back in the House for what they call a Concurrence Debate. So, in order for us, as the Opposition, to have all of the detail that we need to conclude the Budget Debate, we would need this information before we conclude the debate.

The other departments have undertaken to give us this information before we get to that point and, based upon my conversations with the Government House Leader, it looks like the House is going to be open at least during the week of, I believe, May 31, June 1, 2 and 3. We know we are open at least for that period of time, because we only have next week, and the week after takes us to there. We were hoping to have the information before that week started. I anticipate we will be into Concurrence Debate that week.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you would like to have it next week sometime?

MR. PARSONS: If we could.

MR. J. BYRNE: It should not be a problem.

MR. PARSONS: Some departments have a major problem with it because they have 1,200 or 1,400 employees and so on. Yours should be a bit easier. I appreciate that.

I turn it over, at this point, to Mr. Collins.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I do not have a lot of questions on this. I have two municipalities in my district and, for the most part, they do their own thing and take care of their own affairs, but just a couple of questions for you, Minister.

The Labrador Combined Councils, the funding comes from your department for them.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MR. COLLINS: Is the funding going to be the same this year as it was in previous years?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: It will be the same level?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. As a matter of fact, the funding for that is in the process of being done as we speak.

MR. COLLINS: Heading 3.2.03.

MR. J. BYRNE: What page is that?

MR. COLLINS: Page 242, dealing with Coastal Labrador, heading 05. Professional Services, what would that amount be for? I know last year under the Revised figure - it was budgeted and revised, but this year under the Estimates it is up. What would be entailed in that?

MR. J. BYRNE: The reduction, you mean? Due to the short season, isn't it?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The difference, $719,000 compared to what was allocated, had to do with the short working season, I think. The 05. Professional Services, would be the engineering consultants and these types of things.

MR. COLLINS: Under 06. Purchased Services.

MR. J. BYRNE: The same thing.

MR. COLLINS: The same thing?

MR. J. BYRNE: The contracts that are put out to tender, awarded.

MR. COLLINS: That is all I have.

MR. LANGDON: I have a couple of other things.

Going back to what Kelvin was saying earlier, talking about the debt, is there any chance when you are getting the answers to his questions that you might be able to give us how much is owed to the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation by the different municipalities? That should not be difficult to get. That should be pretty easy.

The other one is: Can you give us the amount that the municipalities now owe to the banks? Because a lot of the municipalities have gone from the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation to the bank.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

MR. LANGDON: Just to give some idea of what these particular figures are. It should not be difficult.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not to cut you off, but, as you know, some of the debt out there of some of these municipalities, I am just astounded. When you look at the debt ratio of some of these municipalities, it is 30 per cent, 40 per cent, 50 per cent, 60 per cent, 70 per cent, 80 per cent, 90 per cent. Every dollar they take in, someone has to pay out ninety cents on the dollar. I do not know how they operate. I mean, it just blows me away, some of the debt that these municipalities have. That is why the Debt Relief Program is so important.

MR. LANGDON: Absolutely, and I think that for many of the large municipalities - I know, because I have been associated with municipalities since 1971 - many of the larger municipalities think that the smaller municipalities are not paying their share, which is not correct. In many instances - I can think of one municipality that, for water and sewer last year, they were paying more than $500. There are a lot of municipalities that are paying $400 plus. All of the municipalities, when they have their debt restructured, sign an agreement where they charge a minimum of $1 a day, which is $360 a year; plus, they are looking at a minimum of $300 property tax with it. They are paying it, but the problem that many of them run into, and that is why we, last year and a number of years, looked at, when we do capital works, the provincial government picked up 70 per cent, 75 per cent, 80 per cent, 85 per cent, even 90 per cent of their capital works, because they had no commercial base whereby they could raise taxes, like in and around the St. John's area and some of the larger municipalities.

MR. J. BYRNE: Further to that, when we looked this year at the Municipal Operating Grants, and the department had to cut - every department had to cut - that is the reason why we did it that way. We looked at the fourteen municipalities. We did not pick fourteen out; we worked on a formula and we said - from my perspective, this came through me - that I thought that rural Newfoundland and the smaller municipalities, at this point in time, could not take a cut because a $1,000 cut to some of these municipalities is like a million to St. John's. The attitude I had is that rural Newfoundland kept this Province going for 400 or 500 years. When I decided to go that route, I compared it to Newfoundland and Ottawa, that we want to get our fair share and Ottawa should assist us. We cannot preach one thing and do another. I felt it was time now that maybe the more solid urban areas of the Province would assist rural Newfoundland, whereas for hundreds of years rural Newfoundland assisted the urban parts of the Province. It is just an attitude, I suppose, and I thought it was the right way to go.

MR. LANGDON: That is why we were arguing the same, like, on the ferry increases for the smaller isolated communities.

MR. J. BYRNE: We can only do what we -

MR. LANGDON: I understand that.

The other thing is that you are saying you proclaimed the regional services legislation that gives you the ability to do joint services and so on. I recognize that in this area, the St. John's regional area: St. John's, Mount Pearl, Paradise and so on. Have there been any talks at all initiated by the department or by the municipalities where they would look at one administration for the Northeast Avalon?

MR. J. BYRNE: As you know, that is something that has been on the go for the past twenty-five or thirty-years. There are certain groups within that area that would like to amalgamate or whatever - the words you would like to use - come together. There are others out there. At this point in time, the policy of the present Administration is that there will be no forced amalgamation. That does not mean the cities and the towns cannot come together and approach government to join up, as we just mentioned with respect to Melrose and Port Union and Catalina. I do not know if it will ever come.

It does make sense, I suppose, from a certain perspective, that the sharing of costs would reduce costs, but, to be quite honest with you, at this point in time, the policy of government is no forced amalgamation. That does not mean, as I said, that they cannot come together and start sharing more services, as they have in the past, with respect to the harbour cleanup, firefighting, water, and these types of things. It is probably a natural evolution.

MR. LANGDON: The thing about it is, like you said, it is an ongoing process. When you think of the region here, you have the same firefighting facilities and share arrangements, harbour cleanup, the Bay Bulls Big Pond water system, so you have a lot of services and the only thing you are not, in a sense, sharing, is administration.

If, on the Northeast Avalon, you were to talk about helping the rural parts of the Province, if you were to have St. John's and Mount Pearl and these areas, and give the City of St. John's Donovans Industrial Park and the City of Mount Pearl, and the City of Mount Pearl, as you would know, is primarily all being done by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, costing the municipality nothing. I heard one of the councillors say that come 2005, Mount Pearl, as a city, will be debt free, and there is no wonder. As I said, it has all been done by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. You take Wal-Mart and all the things that are being done there now, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing does it and passes the keys to the city and they collect the taxes.

If you were to, say, have that happen in the Northeast Avalon, the $6 million, or $5 million now that the City of St. John's got, and the $1 million that Mount Pearl has, could be very well be distributed to the rural part of the Province and the City of St. John's be no worse off than they are now. I mean, that is a reality of it.

Like you said, you are looking at numbers crunching and so on. Down the road, it might very well have to mean that some, I guess, meetings will have to be initiated, or whatever the case might be, because you have those duplication of services, you have those dollars that are not needed here, that could be put elsewhere, in Clarenville or Shoal Harbour or whatever the municipality is. You are looking at large sums of money. If you can share water, if you can share fire, if you can share all of the other things, the only thing left is administration. Why do you want a council here and a council in Mount Pearl and so on?

When you look at Donovans Industrial Park, it was done before I got in government. I think it was probably done even before the Wells' Administration came here. Donovans Industrial Park was done by the provincial government and given to the City of Mount Pearl as a gift. All of its revenue comes into the municipality. I will give you an idea of the thing.

One time last year when I was minister they put the new Wal-Mart and the new Canadian Tire store in Mount Pearl, because I live in that area and I was looking at all of the new pine trees that were planted, and all of the other things. One day I was going along there and I said to myself: Mount Pearl must have lots of money to be able to afford putting all of those trees and things in. Out of a conversation with the CEO of the Housing Corporation, I mentioned that and he said: Sure, that contract was let by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. We paid for putting those trees there because the city wanted to be beautified. I think the contract was $100,000 to put trees in around the Wal-Mart area and the banks in and around the surrounding areas in Mount Pearl.

MR. J. BYRNE: When was that, you said?

MR. LANGDON: That was done when the new Wal-Mart was put there and the new Canadian Tire, last year or the year before.

These are the types of things that I think, regardless of government or stripe, need to be looked at if we are going to -

MR. J. BYRNE: What you are saying here obviously makes sense; but, as we saw just recently, the Town of Torbay and the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove have made an agreement with St. John's Regional Firefighting for backup, and paying a fair buck for it.

The other night, I met with some communities in my district with respect to firefighting, trying to get the people to start coming together a bit more and sharing services. I think it is something that you have to walk before you can run.

MR. LANGDON: I understand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eventually, to me, it probably will happen somewhere down the road but not in the near future.

MR. LANGDON: No, I can see the point, but when you have municipalities out there in a rural part of the Province that are really struggling -

MR. J. BYRNE: We have to find ways to help.

MR. LANGDON: If you have a $6 million or $7 million cushion that you could use by bringing some people together, it would make sense (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: As a matter of fact, I have been speaking with the Federation of Municipalities. We are after having about six meetings with them since I became minister, and I am trying to see if we can come up with - I would certainly appreciate anybody's input, yours included, being a former minister - new ways or new approaches to help finance some of these rural communities. It is going to take a lot of minds to pull it together, I think.

MR. LANGDON: There are no two ways about that.

Just one more question from me, here on this part. The grant to the municipalities, the Federation of Municipalities, I guess that remains the same as it was last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, it does.

MR. LANGDON: The grant to the Firefighters Association is probably the same as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: I guess we also committed to another term to: Learn Not To Burn. Did we do that one as well?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, we have done that.

When you look at the volunteers, especially with the volunteer fire departments, and even in the municipalities, most of the people out there are doing it on a volunteer basis. It is a pittance what they get. Some of them pay themselves, but mostly it is volunteer. In these organizations, from my perspective, we have to try to assist as much as we can, where we can. That is why there have been no changes to them.

MR. LANGDON: I will just ask one more question.

On the Fire Commissioner's Office and so on, I know when I was minister, and the officials would know, we met numerous times - the officials more than myself - with the Fire Commissioner's Office and then with the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Fire Chiefs. They were looking for more staff in the Fire Commissioner's Office. I guess the way that I looked at it - I am just getting your opinion, to see where you are - they were looking for new positions. We pretty much said that we were not going to put in new positions, or we did not put them in at that time.

MR. J. BYRNE: New positions?

MR. LANGDON: New positions for the Fire Commissioner's Office.

We pretty much maintained the status quo and thought that the services that were provided by the Fire Commissioner's Office - a lot of the training that they were talking about could be done in the region because a lot of these people are volunteers, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Fire Chiefs did not want to take responsibility for the training.

They agreed to do this, by the way, that many of the training sessions that they set up for firefighters in certain regions, when they went there, practically nobody came to the training and so on. I am just wondering where that is, because Mr. Murphy - I think it was Mr. Murphy - with the CBS -

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, Richard.

MR. LANGDON: Richard was pretty much saying that they look forward to the new positions, so are you going to create them or not?

MR. J. BYRNE: There are two or three things on the go there. One, of course, is those HAZMAT vehicles, ten of those. There has been training done on those in March and they are in the process of being placed. They are in operation this summer, so that is done. There is equipment that we need for the Fire Commissioner's Office itself, with respect to some of the vehicles and training, and a couple of other training vehicles that I am trying to pursue on that issue. I would like to get it for them, if I could, in the near future.

With respect to the two positions, I would like to get those two positions for them but I am not clear yet, in my own mind, if they should be at the Fire Commissioner's Office or where they should be, but obviously they do need two more positions for training, from speaking to the fire chiefs and firefighters.

I recently contacted the fire chiefs and firefighters and the Federation of Municipalities and told them - I had discussions with them, and basically we are going to start having quarterly meetings with both groups; separately, but the one we have with the Department of Municipal Affairs to keep communications flowing.

Those two positions, I am still up in the air on those but we are working towards it. Where they should be is not decided. I do not know if that answers your question or not.

MR. LANGDON: That is quite adequate.

Thank you.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, has the final capital works program for the year been finalized in terms of specifics yet, like -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question.

MR. PARSONS: - which communities are going to get what?

MR. J. BYRNE: Last week, I announced this $100 million, and Oliver knows that most of that money was allocated from the previous Administration so we are just flowing through with that.

As I mentioned earlier in my opening remarks, there are some projects that we are looking at, to reconsider, because we have no new dollars to allocate this year under the various capital works programs. So, some ones that could not probably get started this year because of environmental reasons with federal government environmental approvals or some municipalities might have had a million dollars or half a million sitting aside for a year or two years that they cannot get going this year, type of thing, we are trying to free up some money that way to reallocate some new dollars - new, I suppose, from a certain perspective - to different communities. That has not been decided how much and where it is going to be spent. So, it will not be a significant amount.

In the meantime, I am trying to prepare a Cabinet paper to go ahead, again, with a program that was there previously - where you had the Multi-Year Program, the Capital Works Program and the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program - where you could allocate it over three years. I am in the process of having that done now and getting support for that. I want to do that again because it gives the municipalities and the construction industry some idea of what is coming down next year and the year after type of thing. This year there is not going to be a lot of new dollars, but, hopefully, next year it will start flowing.

MR. PARSONS: What kind of time lines are you seeing in terms of - even not knowing is important to the municipalities who are trying to do their planning.

MR. J. BYRNE: We have to know - I am hoping to have something within the next couple of weeks.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

On page 242 of the Estimates, subhead 3.2.03.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Community Development-Costal Labrador, under the Purchased Services heading I noticed - both in years prior and in this year again - very substantial amounts for Purchased Services. Maybe someone could explain where that comes from, what that is all about; $7,276,000 for Purchased Services, what would that include?

MR. J. BYRNE: Just for the infrastructure projects within the Province, in that area. It is infrastructure for water and sewer. It could be any number of projects within the area. You will notice that there is a difference of - in that line you have $8 million, almost $9 million, down to $3.7 million and up to $7 million this year. The money for this is approved on a project basis, rather than a yearly basis. That is why you see the difference there on what work gets done, type of thing.

MR. PARSONS: Why did we breakout the Labrador initiatives?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. PARSONS: Why is there a separate heading for water and sewer infrastructure?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is federal monies. That is federal agreements. That is completely separate from the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure. That is just an agreement with the feds on that. That is all federal money.

MR. PARSONS: For accounting purposes it makes it easier to keep it all separate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Through the (inaudible) people.

MR. PARSONS: Again, looking to be educated here. I will give you an example, a municipality decides they would like to have some kind of health care facility - say, for example, Clarenville wants a long-term health care facility, how does the process work? The community wants the facility, they obviously go, I would think, to Health and Community Services in the first instance, to say we want to have a project. Government makes a decision as to whether it is or is not going to proceed and then you have to get into the pre-design, the design, and all that kind of thing, the architectural work. How does the process work? Does the Department of Municipal Affairs engineering crew get involved in that? Does it come under tendering under Works and Transportation, or does it come under - does the Department of Health go out and do the tender themselves? Explain to me how this system works?

MR. J. BYRNE: In my mind, if it was not related to Municipal Affairs that would come under the Department of Health and Community Services, if they were going to put a tender out for a hospital. They may be required to go through certain procedures through Transportation and Works, as do the Department of Education for schools. Unless there was funding coming from this department, we would not be involved at all.

MR. PARSONS: Your engineering department is expressly for advising communities with water and sewer projects and that nature?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is right.

MR. PARSONS: Okay. Not in any capital construction other than your department?

MR. J. BYRNE: They would be advising, probably checking and awarding of contracts, calling tenders, these type of things.

MR. PARSONS: Am I correct in saying that the Fire Commissioner's Office is in Deer Lake? That is still there, is it?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Does the Fire Commissioner live in Deer Lake?

MR. J. BYRNE: He is brought back into St. John's for six months for various projects. The Fire Commissioner's Office and the Emergency Measures Office are looking to come together, officially. For all intents and purposes, they have been brought together under the previous Administration. We need them in here now for a six month time frame, and we will see what happens after that.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, do you have any relocation requests on your desk now from other communities in Newfoundland? There is one on the Northern Peninsula. The name escapes me. MR. J. BYRNE: Big Brook was relocated.

MR. PARSONS: Big Brook.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is done. For all intents and purposes it is done. The people have not been relocated but the money has been approved. They have been notified and that should be done by some time in June.

There was one, Beaches, who are looking to relocate. We had a study done on that and we have notified them that it will not happen. It is not feasible. Other than that, we do not have any requests that I am aware of.

MR. PARSONS: How many families were involved and the cost involved in Big Brook?

MR. J. BYRNE: In Big Brook it was just over $300,000 - $350,000, somewhere around there.

OFFICIAL: It was around $300,000 in total, and three families.

MR. PARSONS: As a philosophy, I guess, Minister, do you agree with that theory, that if communities in rural Newfoundland who, of themselves, decide they want to go, they want to move, if that is their wish and -

MR. J. BYRNE: I would prefer to see the communities survive, all communities, if they could at all, but if you have some of the smaller communities, like three or four families, or twenty people, or fifty or hundred people and they decide, for their own reasons, that they want to relocate - again, looking at the analysis and the cost-benefit analysis and these types of things, I mean, I could support them on that but we are not going to go out and ask people to relocate or insinuate that they should relocate. If they make up their own minds and come forward with that, well, we will have a look at it and if it makes sense financially and for safety reasons, whatever the case may be, well then, we will certainly try and do it. There is no money allocated for that program. If a community comes forward, we will try and come up with the money from within the department in various programs.

MR. PARSONS: That is nice to hear. I do not have any further questions. I would like to say, though, I have only been here five years and of all the departments of government I have had to deal with - we are known for throwing bricks sometimes but there are also bouquets at times. I would like to say that of all the departments I have dealt with, the Department of Municipal Affairs has been the most co-operative and, I think, have a true appreciation - the staff in that department - of rural Newfoundland. It is sad to say, I cannot say the same for all other departments but I think the staff of Municipal Affairs do have an appreciation of what rural Newfoundland is all about and I hand a bouquet to all of your staff for being the way that they have been.

Thank you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you for those comments.

Just further to that, I mean when we formed the government back in October, who knew who were going to become ministers? That is completely at the Premier's discretion. I was hoping that if I did get a minister's job it would be Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I was really hoping for that one; if I got one.

I agree with the comments you made. Any dealings I have had with the Department of Municipal Affairs - long before I got into government, even when I was the mayor of a small town down in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove - in dealing with the staff, I mean they were just exceptional; no problems at all. The former minister - well, he is here now, so I do not want to build him up too much. He was a good fellow to work with, put it that way. There were others prior to him now, on the political side, but I have to give him credit.

CHAIR: By all means, go ahead.

MR. LANGDON: On Big Brook, because the Assistant Deputy Minister, Deputy Minister and myself went to Big Brook to meet with the people there. I think at that time they were looking for more money than what we had given to the communities of Harbour Deep, Petites and so on. Did they finally settle for the same amounts?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. LANGDON: They did?

MR. J. BYRNE: They did.

MR. LANGDON: I just want to echo what Kelvin said. I had just about three years over there and the staff were just superb. I am sure the professionalism that they displayed when I was there is the same professionalism that they displayed for this minister and for subsequent ministers who will come after. It is a great department. It is good people. People oriented - and once you recognize that, in any department, one of the key factors of success is having people skills and being able to work with people. That is what I found when I was there, and I am sure that the present minister finds the same thing.

That will probably did it for me, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you.

It appears that we are wrapping up. I will ask the Clerk if he will call the subheads, please.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to and including 4.2.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.2.01 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. That was very concise and very informative, and I thank you for your answers. Thank you to your staff for attending as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank yourself and the Committee and my staff. I would like to thank the Committee for good, civil questions. Sometimes we have a tendency to get carried away in the House, but this was - I hope the answers were informative and what you had expected. As I said, I appreciate your time, and my staff also appreciates it. They put a lot of work and time into getting this package together. Any information that you requested, we will hopefully get that for you in the time you requested also.

Thanks.

CHAIR: I remind the members of the Committee that we meet again tonight to deal with the Estimates of the Department of Education. We are in the Committee Room tonight, rather than here.

Thank you very much and we will see you tonight.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you again, Minister, and your staff.

On motion, the Committee now stands adjourned.