Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mr. Wallace Young, MHA for the District of St. Barbe, replaces Mr. Clyde Jackman, MHA for the District of Burin-Placentia West, and Mr. Dave Denine, MHA for the District of Mount Pearl, replaces Mr. Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I want to welcome everybody to the first meeting of the Estimates Committee for this year. This morning we are dealing with the Department of Education. As I understand it, this Committee is a Standing Committee of the House so we do not need to go through the process of electing a Chair and a Vice-Chair again.

I am Ross Wiseman, Chair of the Committee. To my immediate left is Mr. Kelvin Parsons. To his left is Mr. Roland Butler, who is Vice-Chair of the Committee. To my right is Mr. Wallace Young, who is sitting in for Mr. Clyde Jackman, and Mr. Dave Denine is sitting in for Mr. Terry French.

Minister, I would ask if you would introduce your staff.

MR. HEDDERSON: To my immediate left is Mr. Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister. To my far left is Rick Hayward, Assistant Deputy Minister of Corporate Services. To my far right is Gerald Galway, Assistant Deputy Minister of Primary, Elementary, Secondary. To my immediate right is Rachelle Cochrane, Assistant Deputy Minister of Post-Secondary.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Just by way of a couple of housekeeping things, it is now just 9:05 a.m. and, as we proceed, if we feel that we are going to go, whether it will be a scheduled 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. period, we should probably take a fifteen or twenty minute break at about maybe 10:15 a.m. or 10:30 a.m. without interrupting anybody, I would say, give us that range, and then we will come back and wrap it up before then.

Both the minister and I have made the mistake of not turning on our microphones. This technology is not automated, so when you want to speak I would ask you to, if you would, just push the button in front of you. Obviously, when the light comes on it is activated. I would ask, to help with the recording of it, if you would identify yourself as you speak. Out of necessity, you need to do that each time you speak if you start a new conversation. Those are the technical pieces of it.

First of all, I would like to ask the minister if he would like to open with some introductory comments. I think probably what we might do, just to facilitate a more natural flow, if it is okay with the members of the Committee, rather than deal with each heading at a time, and then talk about it and vote on it after, maybe what we can do is just kind of throw it open and we will deal with all of the issues around the Estimates and then we will vote on each of the heads at the end. Is that okay?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: All right then.

Minister, the floor is yours.

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, good morning to all. I am certainly pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the 2005-2006 Budget Estimates for the Department of Education.

I have introduced my senior departmental officials, and they are here to assist me in providing any clarification you may require as we go through this submission. This process is in accordance with our interest in being open and accountable, not only to you but certainly to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Just as a way of introduction, because of the government's improving fiscal situation, this department has received a modest increase in its operational capital budget for 2005-2006 to help maintain quality education services, to enhance strategic education initiatives, and to meet government commitments. Some of these strategic investments total something to the effect of $7.75 million. They do include MUN, CONA, $5 million; public library boards, $250,000, and those were for computer system upgrades; curriculum materials, $2.5 million. The department received funding for new, yet essential initiatives. Our physical education, $1 million; class size, $1.8 million; the Newfoundland fine arts, $3 million, that is $9 million over three years; our Innu initiative, $500,000; school board operations, $900,000 for regional offices; $3 million for school busing; $900,000 for utilities, hours of work.

Under school construction and renovation, $16 million for maintenance of school buildings, an increase of $8 million over 2004-2005, including a carry-over of $4 million from 2004-2005; $9.5 million to complete previously approved projects and to commence some new projects, in this case, Herdman and Mobile. We have some projects still under review, and we have $250,000 for a long-term facilities plan.

With regard to Memorial University, currently, funding of $16.9 million in excess of the 2004-2005 allocation. That is including the tuition freeze as well as notational funding for the White Paper. Under capital for MUN, deferred maintenance of $4 million; opportunity funds of $500,000; furniture and equipment, $1 million. The College of the North Atlantic, current, funding of $4.7 million in excess of the 2004-2005 allocation for capital; furniture and equipment something like $500,000.

Under the school board operating, $6 million savings from the school board consolidation is on target; $900,000 included to maintain the regional offices for 2005-2006 pending facilities review.

I am sure all of the hon. members are aware of the percentage of the provincial budget that is spent on education. It is second only to health. Together, education and health account for the majority of the Province's budget. The Province's considerable investments in education are justified to enable us to capitalize on the limitless opportunities our natural resources and other assets provide.

We spend about two-thirds of the entire K to 12 budget on teaching services. Certainly, there is an enormous demand on the one-third of the budget that is set aside for school construction, repairs, maintenance, busing, programming, school supplies and the like.

Given the demographics in the Province, the government will face continual challenges to realign its educational expenditures to meet the needs of learners. We know, since education reform in 1997, which was just a short eight years ago, student enrolment has gone from almost 103,000 to just over 79,000, close to a 25 per cent decline. In the next eight years we expect enrolment to drop to 60,000 students; again, a further decline of 25 per cent, close to 25 per cent.

Notwithstanding the challenge to continually realign services, there is every reason to believe that our investments in a quality learning environment are resulting in the desired outcomes. We saw the PISA results assessment which show significant advances in Newfoundland and Labrador standing, both nationally and internationally. Our students are now preforming at the Canadian average in reading and science, and our math scores have improved significantly. The investments now that are announced in the 2005-2006 Budget will enable this department to maintain quality education services and to enhance services in a number of key areas that I have outlined.

Our efforts to maintain the quality of education services in the Province will be enhanced through the election of new school boards this fall under the streamlined board structure now in place. The new boards will serve to provide the energy, commitment and drive needed to make the new initiatives and plan for education in the Province a reality.

The White Paper on Post-Secondary Education will announce a wide range of initiatives under the notional allocation of $14.7 million in this budget. These initiatives will position the post-secondary system in the Province to permit our youth workers and employers to meet the challenges and avail of opportunities in the years to come.

At this time I am very pleased to be a part of this Estimates procedure, and I will entertain any questions that you may want to put towards myself or indeed my officials.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

To help us start the discussion this morning, I will call the first head.

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Mr. Parsons, Mr. Butler, who wants to start first?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, it is all yours.

Just push the button and introduce yourself.

MR. BUTLER: I am Roland Butler, the Member for Port de Grave District.

I just wanted to ask, is there a time frame when we will switch back and forth? I do not want to hog the issue.

CHAIR: What we will probably do is, at the end of about twenty or twenty-five minutes or so, if you want to take a break and hand it off to someone else, we will be pretty accommodating in the process.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The only thing is, I think our critic will be here - he is at a meeting now - so I might stop then and let him take over.

CHAIR: By all means, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Rather than go with any general questions, first of all, I would like to welcome the minister and your staff.

I will just go into some of the different headings in the Estimates and leave the general questions to him, when he arrives. If he is not here in time, I will go into some that I have but I do not want to conflict with him.

The first one that I just want to touch base on is 2.1.01., under Administrative Support. There is an additional $185,600 in salaries. I was wondering, is this for new positions? Are there new hirings under that heading, where it says $185,000, or is it listed under some other subheading?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is under salaries. Basically, it was revised up by $75,700. This is additional temporary staff and overtime as a result of the school board reorganization as well as summer and co-op students.

MR. BUTLER: Also, under the heading 2.1.01., Professional Services, there is a cut there of $250,000. I was just wondering what services are being cut there. Is there a service that is no longer in existence by this reduction of $250,000? What was purchased under that -

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the White Paper.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the White Paper, so that is a one-shot deal.

MR. BUTLER: Good enough.

Under heading 2.2.01. there is an increase of, I think, $10,400 in Purchased Services for Community Access Program. I was wondering, is this purchasing services from outside agencies when possibly internal employees could utilize this task? If that is the case, I was wondering who received that extra $10,400 that is under Community Access Program?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a reallocation of funding within the activity based on 2005-2006.

Bruce, could you just give the specifics of that?

MR. HOLLETT: Purchased Services in that particular account are for marketing, advertising and that for Community Access Program sites, those types of expenditures, a very small increase in a relative sense. There is nothing of any significance there. The money is spent over a fairly broad range, anything from newspaper ads to magazine ads, The Herald, RB papers, et cetera.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.01., if my figures are correct, I think there is a decrease of approximately $19,865,000 in funding for Teaching Services. I was wondering, the money, this approximate $20 million dollars in teacher salaries, is any of this gone back, reinvested, in the education system, or is it just gone in - and I hate to use this, I suppose - for the bottom line purposes, or is it reinvested back into the education system?

MR. HEDDERSON: With regard to the teaching services, of course, there are a lot of factors that come in there. We have a pay period less, a change in the mix of teachers on grade and point scale and so on, but I am going to defer to my deputy minister. I want him to just go down through it, in a sense, so that you can get a good sense of where the actual dollars are going.

Bruce, if you will?

MR. HOLLETT: A whole bunch of things factor into the change from $349 million last year to $333 million this year. There is a reduction in the number of teaching units overall this year; a net reduction of 145 teachers, that is with the ones that come out under the Sparkes-Williams' formula, plus the reinvestment of teachers. So there is seven-twelfths of that reduction of 145 teaching units in this fiscal year. There would also be five-twelfths of the 256 teaching units that came out last year. There are twenty-six pay periods in this fiscal year. There were twenty-seven pay periods in the last fiscal year. So that is an adjustment in those numbers as well.

As the minister indicated, every year where there are a number of teachers who retire, as well as the number of teaching units coming out of the system, new teachers coming in. The teachers who are on our payroll over the course of the year may have a somewhat different level on whether or not they are - anywhere between Grade 1 and Grade 7 teachers, and where they would sit then on the salary scale for each of those grades. So there are a whole combination of factors with this particular number, but the biggest single influence on that would suggest there is one less pay period.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 3.1.01. Teaching Services; $94,800 has been cut for the Newfoundland School for the Deaf. I was wondering, why is government cutting this resource to a school, which I understand, needs further investment? If people are - how many people are being laid off, I guess, and if it is through attrition, why not hire new staff for that facility?

MR. HEDDERSON: What it is, a reduction of $94,800, the one less pay period and the one less teaching unit.

MR. BUTLER: So, in actual fact, there is no reduction of staff there? That is where it comes into.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is a reduction of one less teaching unit.

MR. BUTLER: One less one. Okay.

Under 3.1.02. School Board Operations; $431,800 has been cut from the budget for teaching assistants. I was just wondering, were there any layoffs, or how many would have been involved in that area?

MR. HEDDERSON: Revised down by $700,000. Strike savings realized in 2004-2005 and one less pay period in 2005-2006.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. I just forget now how it was worded in the Blue Book. I was going to get a copy of it earlier.

The next heading there, 3.1.02. - the same heading, I guess - under Transportation of School Children. I was just wondering if you could - like I said, I just forget how it was worded at that time. Was there someone to be put in place to overview the full busing system in the Province? If so, was that done? Or, who did it if that was the case?

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess the commitment would be to begin to get the age of the buses down and to look at bus safety and so on. What we have done as part of that commitment to provide $1.5 million to commence the initiative to lower the age of the bus, $1.575 to cover the increase in debt servicing for the new bus acquisition and to look at the enhanced safety training as well. I am not sure of that position, but I could check for you.

MR. HOLLETT: We are doing a review of the busing this year, but we have a supervisor of school transportation within the department and it is run within our administration branch.

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I did not know if you were talking about a new position or a consultant or whatever. I was not sure where you were coming from.

MR. BUTLER: I did not know if there was someone on the outside or as versus (inaudible) in the department.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, there is one. There has always been someone in the department who has been allocated for that.

MR. BUTLER: The other thing, Minister, you mentioned about the, I don't know, $1.5 million or $1.7 million set for the new busing system. How does that work? Does that just go to the school boards who operate their own buses, or how does it filtrate down through individuals who go and purchase their own buses, that type of thing?

MR. HOLLETT: There are two answers to that. For the board owned buses, there will be fifty-three new buses purchased this year by the boards and we will be providing the boards with money to cover the debt servicing charges on those.

We have also included in the Estimates, for this year, for the contracted busing, an increased amount. As we renew the contracts for school busing with contracted services around the Province, we will be requiring them to decrease the age of the fleet. Because of that, we are expecting that some of the bus costs here for the contracting costs will increase, so we have provided an amount here. As the new contracts come up, to provide for an increase in those contracts to account for the higher costs, obviously, of them acquiring newer buses.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, that is how the money would filtrate -

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: - the contracts would be on a higher value?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

3.4.01. under the Educational Programs, Student Evaluation and Scholarships. There is an increase in Salaries there of $30,000 over last year's Budget. I was just wondering, is that a new position that was hired?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is, I guess, our department salary plan and this expenditure is in accordance with that. Specifically, Bruce, that would be -

MR. HOLLETT: What we have done, we have lived within our expenditure budget for salaries last year within the department. At the beginning of the year, that required that we allocate a certain amount around the department for potential savings in salaries throughout the year. Then, of course, depending on where - you know, people went on maternity leave or if people resigned, we would move that money around within the department. So, we met our salary budget overall but we allocated the potential savings across the entire department. But that did not necessarily, over the course of the year, reflect the actual practice. So we would simply do a transfer between divisions then to reflect - that is, in essence, what we have done.

MR. BUTLER: 3.4.03. Professional Development. There is a decrease there, I think, of $200,000 in this year's budget. Is this a downgrading of, I guess, the training or whatever they use to - is that the programs, I am trying to say, where they keep updated, I guess, on the curriculum and so on? Do you think this will have any effect, if that is what that $200,000 decrease is, if that is where it is involved?

MR. HEDDERSON: It does involve professional development. Of course, what this does affect is the net effect of a reduction of $500,000 in the allocation to school boards for discretionary leave for teachers and a $300 increase in funding for the Newfoundland Fine Arts program. Of course, decisions like that are made in relation to the number of teachers, and so on and so forth, who are in the system and the need that is out there.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 3.4.04. Centre for Distance Learning and education. There is an increase there of $87,000. I was wondering, is that new positions that have created, and I am wondering where they are located?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is under Salaries?

MR. BUTLER: 3.4.04 is the heading.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is, I guess, a reallocation of the approved budget within the CDLI funding for 2005-2006. It is an increase of $87,100. Specifics, Bruce, would be?

MR. HOLLETT: Again, this is - as per the rest of the salary plan for the department - the moving around of monies within the department to reflect our total salary budget. But at CDLI, because we are increasing the number of courses that are available online to students and increasing our effort throughout the Province, there is an increase in both the professional staff at CDLI, which you see in 3.4.04.01., and also in the Grants and Subsidies which, in fact, reflect many of the teaching units in that area as well. So, the increasing effort we are putting into CDLI is reflected in both accounts, but there is also some salary adjustment as well, as part of the departmental salary plan.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Hitting 4.1.05. Adult Learning and Literacy. It shows a cut of $80,000. I was just wondering if you could explain -

MR. HEDDERSON: That is in what section, Grants and Subsidies?

MR. BUTLER: Section 4.1.05, Adult Learning and Literacy.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under what area? What subsection?

MR. BUTLER: Under 4.1.05.

CLERK (Murphy): Number 10.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, I am sorry, I should have given you that number.

MR. HEDDERSON: What happened last year was that the Literacy Development Council was dissolved, and we have a group going forward now, the LNAG Group, who are looking at creating a network for community literacy throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. Basically then, the reduction in the administration grant is due to the dissolution of that Literacy Development Council that would have been there operating.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. I am jumping all over the place here.

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead. Just give us time to catch up with you, that is all.

MR. BUTLER: Under 4.4.01, Administration, Grants and Subsidies, it shows a decrease, a fair-sized decrease, of $600,000. I was just wondering if you could explain.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is down $400,000. That is basically a reduction in funding for deferred bursaries and interest relief. I will just refer to Rachelle, if you could just give us the specifics of that.

MS. COCHRANE: Yes, I could. We have a certain number of student loans, about $48 million to $50 million, that are still being operated by CIBC. They were the previous banker for the program. They are CIBC loans. We, as a government, have committed to providing them with interest payments on those loans for students who go into default. There are a whole bunch of services associated with those loans still being operated by CIBC. Those loans are falling off every year, they are getting smaller and smaller, as we have taken over the Student Loan Program through financing. What you see here is the estimate of what we will have to pay less to CIBC for those old loans.

MR. BUTLER: I was just talking to my colleague here. I will ask another couple and then I will turn it over to him for a while.

Minister, with regard to just a general question, I guess: We heard in the media recently, through the various forms of media, about inspections being done on schools for occupational health and safety. I was just wondering: How extensive was this and what reports have you been receiving back, if any - I am sure you have - from Occupational Health and Safety? I was just wondering: Is it a major concern, as we are hearing in the media, throughout the Province, and I guess more so in rural Newfoundland than in the larger centres?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, a couple of things here. One is, of course, the inspectors going into the schools is no different, I suppose, than any other workplace or public building, that they are called in as per need and they carry out their inspections as they would and report back. According to what we receive from those inspections, we act upon it immediately, and depending upon the severity of it, of course, it may involve different strategies to deal with it.

Overall, there is no doubt, Roland, we have some very serious challenges out there with our infrastructure, and we feel we are meeting those. If you notice, the one big thrust of the department, of this government, was the allocation of funds now to deal with the envelopes. The carryover from last year and the additional funds of $12 million this year will give us $16 million. We are moving very quicky on those now, with getting the consultants to go in and see exactly what the need is, calling the tenders, and moving forward on it. I must say, to date we are ahead of where I thought we would be in addressing - I am talking about the envelopes because I think that is what you are referring to, the state of the buildings. Again, we take direction from our inspectors, we react as quickly as we can, and in the long term we feel very confident that certainly over the next - it may not all be addressed in one year, but over the course of time we are hoping to get a good handle on our buildings.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

I had the opportunity to meet with the staff at a couple of schools in my district recently. I guess this was prior to the Budget coming down, and we know now that there will be teachers coming out of the system again this year. They expressed major concerns with the problems that they were encountering with their students with learning disabilities. They felt that with additional staff coming out of the system, even though I know we are saying we are going to keep some there versus what should have come out of the system for different areas, they had major concerns with regard to the reading programs. They felt that with additional staff, half a unit or whatever, coming out of their school, this would increase the problems that they have. They felt that some of those children were going to suffer for that.

I was just wondering if you could give me an update, if you have had any such correspondence or calls from not only that area but anywhere around the Province. I just reference that because that is the one I was dealing with. Do you think that the teachers who are coming out of the system this year will create more problems for those schools?

MR. HEDDERSON: Two areas that you are looking at there with regard to teaching services, one is for the special needs, and one of those special needs categories, of course, would be the learning disabled. When we look at those special needs, those are on needs; so, when we look at allocations that go toward responding to those special needs, like student assistants, categorical teachers, these are allocated according to need. I do not see, basically, a dramatic change in that except as indicated by the number of students that would be involved in that area.

When we talk about teaching positions, that is more in the mainstream. Of course, reductions in teachers may have some effect with regard to that particular area but that is hard to predict, Roland.

Gerald, did you want to add anything to that?

MR. GALWAY: Just following on the minister's remarks, last year's reduction, or the reduction coming up for September, 2005, 145 units, that would represent about ten special education teachers, based on an allocation of seven per thousand; but, Mr. Butler, as the minister indicates, all of the criteria teachers, or the so-called categorical teachers, are allocated on a needs basis, so, in the case of students with learning disabilities, half of a teacher is assigned for every one or two students, three-quarters of a teacher is assigned for every three students, and a teacher is assigned for every four to six students with learning disabilities.

As the minister indicated, in terms of the overall reduction, yes, there may be some effect, but, in terms of those categorical teachers, they continue to be allocated on a needs basis. In fact, we have seen, really, no change. Even though the enrolment has declined by 50 per cent since 1972, and it declined approximately 2 per cent to 3 per cent a year, we still have maintained approximately the same number of categorical teachers year after year.

MR. BUTLER: The last question I have, Mr. Chair, and then we will pass it over to some other member, is with regard to, I guess, the teaching units in the schools. It is based on, I guess, the reduction - we always talk about the reduction in enrolment. From what I can understand - and, Minister, you would know this better than I would because we live fairly close together in the same area - my understanding is that, in what I will call the Ascension system, that is usually the way they refer to it, I am under the impression that there is an upswing there, like Amalgamated Academy and those schools, the enrolments are starting to rise again. I am just wondering what impact - probably I should not be here asking questions on my own areas, but I guess the same thing is happening around the Province through different school boards. I was just wondering, are there going to be major reductions - I should not say major, but any reductions - out there this year when their enrolment, to my understanding, is increasing? Will they be losing many out there to affect the system that we have in place?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, allocations are geared toward last September's enrolment. Even if there is a decrease this year, it may not show up until next year. Of course, if there is an increased enrolment this September, as you are predicting, that will certainly show up in following years. Hopefully it would maintain at least the status quo.

Of course, you also have to realize that the teachers are allocated to the boards. They get a block of teachers and then they disperse them as they see fit, keeping in mind the allocation formula and what they should be putting in every school.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

CHAIR: Since we have done the introductions at the very beginning, we have been joined by three other MHAs: Ms Kathy Goudie, Mr. Randy Collins and Mr. Gerry Reid.

I think Mr. Collins wanted to ask a few questions.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I only have a couple of short questions.

Section 3.1.06., talking about special measures and appropriations for special projects in the areas of French First Language education and French Second Language instruction, why is there a huge difference in the amount budgeted in 2004-2005 to the revised budget and the estimates for 2005-2006?

MR. HEDDERSON: We are looking at 2004-2005, revised down, and you are talking about $1.4 million? Is that what you are referring to?

MR. COLLINS: The 2005-2006 estimate is $1.4 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: The funding level, of course, that is depending on a federal-provincial contribution agreement. Negotiations were subsequent to the tabling of this budget and funding as per the federal-provincial contribution agreement. Funding levels were increased by $900,000 in language programs.

Specifically, to get into that, I am going to refer to Gerald, if you would, to just clarify that.

MR. GALWAY: Thank you, Minister.

In fact, that $2,500,000 was an original estimate that came forward in the Budget before we had indicated, been advised by the federal government, as to what the investment would be. So that, pure and simply, is an overestimate. We did not have the information available from the federal government at the time. When the agreement finally came down, the amount was $1.1 million.

In terms of the difference, the increase from $1.1 million, the revised from 2004-2005 to the 2005-2006 estimate, that increase represents an increase in the OLEP, Official Languages in Education Program, by the federal government, and we are about to sign a new protocol. All the provinces and territories are about to sign a new protocol agreement. We have been able to negotiate for Newfoundland an overall increase as compared to what we got last year.

MR. COLLINS: The estimate for 2004-2005, the $2.5 million, would that have been based on funding received in prior years?

MR. HEDDERSON: What was the history of that?

MR. GALWAY: In fact, we have been, for the last couple of years, trying to negotiate a five year agreement. For the last two years we have been operating on interim funding. That is because there has been difficulty getting an agreement between the federal government and the thirteen provinces and territories.

That $2.5 million really was an overestimate. It was far more than what we had gotten in previous years, and I do not have those figures here available but I could get them. In terms of where we are going in terms of the $1.4 million this year, that represents an increase over previous years.

MR. COLLINS: What type of special projects would be included in that?

MR. COLLINS: Fifty per cent by 2000?

MR. GALWAY: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: Under this heading, we talk about French First Language and French Second Language. French second language, would that be the Immersion Program?

MR. GALWAY: It could be some parts of the Immersion Program but, in terms of the actual teaching services associated with the Immersion Program, that is a provincial expenditure. So, some items associated with French Immersion, by all means, for example, cultural affairs or taking French Immersion students on cultural exchanges, those kinds of things. The actual delivery of the program, Mr. Collins, is covered under provincial teacher allocation.

MR. COLLINS: Okay. Under 3.2.02, Language Programs, there is an increase in what was budgeted for 2004-2005 and what was revised. What would that increase be going towards?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is mostly the Grants and Subsidies, is it? That goes back to our agreement, I guess, in how we negotiated. Go ahead.

MR. GALWAY: The overall increase, Mr. Collins, from $1.246 million to $1.5 million?

MR. COLLINS: Yes.

MR. GALWAY: Again, that represents our estimate based on what we anticipate the new OLEP agreement will provide to the Province.

MR. COLLINS: If there is an increase provided to the Province, would that impact upon the delivery of French Immersion Programs in the Province?

MR. HEDDERSON: As we have already outlined for those areas, like subsidies to go on trips and so on, but the teaching services, again, are outside of that particular funding, largely because of the federal-provincial, I guess, way of dealing with education. They are very reluctant, up to this point in time, to actually fund teaching positions.

MR. COLLINS: Does the Province have any flexibility in allocating monies received from the federal government for second language provisions to use that money, not necessarily as they see fit but do they have any flexibility? For example, the monies received under 3.1.06. for special projects, would any of that money be allowed to be used for other purposes?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but it depends on what the purposes are. One of these areas that we are having great difficulty in is that teaching services one.

MR. COLLINS: I will get to the bottom line. Is French Immersion going ahead in Labrador?

MR. HEDDERSON: I have been skirting around that.

MR. COLLINS: Stop beating around the bush.

MR. HEDDERSON: I have a note here: Heading for French Immersion.

Randy, we have had a discussion on it, as you know. Even over the last couple of days, we have herded along with out discussion with the school board, and I am still not in a position to absolutely guarantee that it will occur. I can tell you that I am very, very optimistic, but unfortunately I cannot say with certainty.

Gerald, if you have anything to add to that, that might give Mr. Collins a little bit more of a level of comfort.

MR. GALWAY: Yes. We have been in contact with the school board as late as yesterday afternoon, and I understand they are going to be discussing the matter at the next school board meeting. There are some indications that they are in a position to have another look at that decision they made last year. Again, the school board has not met yet and I understand they are going to be meeting within the next week.

MR. HEDDERSON: Decision is pending. Obviously we need to know before May 7, as I told you. The deadline is getting closer.

MR. COLLINS: Just one final question on 3.1.10., Native People's Education. It says, "Appropriations provided for teachers' housing in Inuit communities." There was $250,000 budgeted in 2004-2005, it was not revised, and there isn't any budgeted for this year. I am wondering why.

MR. HEDDERSON: Funding for this initiative ended subsequent to the tabling of the 2004-2005 Budget. I will get Bruce to give you the specifics.

MR. HOLLETT: This funding comes under an agreement with the federal government. The dollars are no longer in the Department of Education. The dollars now are actually voted between Municipal Affairs and Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs. There is still funding from the federal government to subsidize teacher housing, it just does not come to our department any more; a simple answer.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you. That is all the questions I have, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Collins. Now you know how to get a direct answer to a direct question. It saved a lot of time. I thank you.

Mr. Reid, before you start, we had said before you came in, in all fairness to you, that we would see how it was going, and probably around 10:15 we would take a fifteen or twenty minute break. We (inaudible) half an hour and we will take a break then. If not, we can come back and finish it up. Is that okay with you?

MR. REID: I do not want a break, though. We only have three hours.

CHAIR: Rather than let you know half way through -

MR. REID: I am only going to ask one question now, or a couple, and then I am passing it over to my colleague. I am going to come back with mine later, if that is all right with you.

CHAIR: By all means, we will do that.

MR. REID: Further to the question that my colleague from Labrador just asked about French Immersion in Labrador West, how many teachers are they losing in Labrador West?

MR. GALWAY: I am not sure, Mr. Reid, the split between Labrador West and Labrador East. I understand, from talking to the director, the number is four, but I believe the allocation reduction was probably five. It is somewhere in the range of four to five for the entire district.

MR. REID: Are you making a special deal with the board to give them - if you are saying the outlook for French Immersion is rather positive, at least, that is what the minister indicated just then, you must be going to give an additional teacher or a couple of units to Labrador West. I do know how you are going to lose four teachers and implement a new program. Can you tell me how you plan to do that?

MR. HEDDERSON: When you are looking at teacher allocations, as I say, we allocate teachers as a block to the boards and they then look at the needs they have in that particular school year and make choices and decisions as to how they are going to allocate those teachers. There is no difference in our allocations, we are just trying some creative ways to make sure that the board can offer this particular program.

To get back to my conversation with Mr. Collins, again it is the teaching services that is the difficulty, as you realize, and we cannot allocate over and beyond that. However, there are still some strategies and innovations that you can put in place, in consultation with the school board and with the parents, and make some decisions, even at the school level, to accommodate the French Immersion Program.

MR. REID: You can allocate over and above that, and it has been done in the past, I know. It happened in the past with other ministers. When you say you cannot, it is not like it is written in stone, if you want to you can do it. It is my understanding in talking with the representatives of the board in Labrador, the reason French Emersion was cut is because they did not have enough teachers to do the rest of the curriculum. So I do not understand how, with four fewer bodies in Labrador this year, you would think positively about French Emersion being reintroduced, unless you are going to pull rabbits out of the hat that we do not know about. Because I have had discussions with that board and I am not sure if they said it was going to be Labrador West or Happy Valley-Goose Bay that was going to take the largest hit in teacher reductions this year. Gerald, maybe you know. I thought it was Labrador West that were going to lose the most teachers because of declining enrollment. If you drop a course like French Emersion because you do not have enough teachers, if you lose four additional teachers, I do not know how you are going to pick it up. The logic defies me. Maybe you would like to comment on that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is a situation that you are looking at the new picture now. Of course there were some additional teachers placed into the system, especially at the primary level, that I feel will alleviate some of the pressure that you are referring to. Of course, we do have a decline in student population on an ongoing basis.

So, again, I cannot get ahead of the board and say it is not going to happen or it is going to happen, but we are working as closely as we can with the school board and trying every which way we can to ensure that program goes forward.

MR. REID: I guess words are important. When you say there were additional teachers put in the system, that is not entirely true. A few were taken out.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, what I am saying is that over and beyond the allocation formula there are additional teachers put in to address the class size. We are on the allocation formula, but over and beyond the allocation formula there are seventy-five teachers that are going back into the system. That is going to help with regard to this particular program, or at least I hope it will. It does give the board more flexibility than they had before when they made a decision to cancel this program.

MR. REID: Yes, you can talk about the allocation formula but there are still fewer teachers in that particular area, as it is throughout the Province, this year. You can say you are placing more teachers in, that is just semantics, what you are actually doing is taking 145 out. There are no new teachers going back - you cannot say there are more teachers anywhere in this Province than there were last year.

MR. HEDDERSON: What I am saying is that there are more teachers over and beyond the allocations that are given through the allocation formula.

MR. REID: Exactly.

MR. HEDDERSON: I have made no bones about that, that we putting - in the allocation formula last March it was indicated that we would follow the allocation formula, which we have. The numbers are down to certainly reflect that allocation formula but we have two new initiatives that have gone in over and beyond the allocation formula, and that is with the class size in primary and the cultural strategy. That class size in primary, I am saying, will help this situation.

MR. REID: When we were in government, I think from 1999 on - Gerald, maybe you can correct me of the exact figure. We left 228, I think -

MR. HEDDERSON: Two hundred and eighteen.

MR. REID: Two hundred and eighteen over and above the allocation formula every year. Yet, when you were Education critic, you basically were saying that to take one teacher out of the system was one too many. What has happened in the last few years, that you can live with the allocation formula when leaving 218 above the allocation formula was not enough?

MR. HEDDERSON: Most of my moves, if we want to go back to that time, in 1999 was asking that the allocation formula be adjusted, which did happen. Sparkes-Williams did adjust the formula in 2000, going into 2001. It was accepted on a go forward basis. A decision was made by the government at the time to ignore that allocation formula, despite the fact that it was put on the table that the allocation formula should be followed. That is all I am doing, as a government, and we are following the formula.

MR. REID: I have to respond to that. You are saying that the government of the day did not live by the allocation formula.

MR. HEDDERSON: They did not, no.

MR. REID: No, we did not because we left 218 teachers more than the allocation formula said we should leave in the system. Even leaving the 218 in at that time you still, right up until 2003, said that any teachers coming out were teachers too many. To say today that we made a mistake by leaving more teachers in the system than the formula said we should, that is what you are saying.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. REID: Yes, but it goes back to the question I asked you.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are five years down the road and we have less students, we have less schools, we have different circumstances. You know, that is what we are living with right now.

MR. REID: But it goes back to the question that I asked. What has happened in the last couple of years since you went in government to have changed your mind so dramatically? What you are saying today is that I, as a Minister of Education two short years ago, should have taken out the entire 218, but that is not what you were saying in the House of Assembly.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we are dealing with the here and now, I say to you.

MR. REID: I know the here and now, but nothing has changed.

MR. HEDDERSON: And here and now is what is important at this particular point in time.

MR. REID: Yes, there is no doubt about it.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am prepared to live with it, you are not. So, that is a difference of opinion.

MR. REID: Anyway, we will get back to that. I am going to pass it over to my colleague but I had to make that comment.

CHAIR: Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

Minister, was there any money spent in your department last year on polling of any kind?

MR. HEDDERSON: Polling?

MR. PARSONS: Polling of any kind?

MR. HEDDERSON: I would have to refer to my deputy minister because I was not here for the full -

MR. HOLLETT: No, we do not do polling in the department. We do the evaluation of students like the CRTs (inaudible) and that type of thing, but we do no polling within the department.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Was there any money spent in your department on media training?

MR. HEDDERSON: For me?

MR. PARSONS: Anyone.

MR. HEDDERSON: For me there was, but that is through the Cabinet Secretariat.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I was not there for the full year. So, I would rather refer to the deputy minister just to clarify that, Mr. Parsons.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, we do training within the department of various types, small amounts of media training. Certainly, the minister did media training but that would have been - yes, that would have been in the last fiscal year.

MR. PARSONS: Who else did it in addition to the minister and what did it cost the department?

MR. HOLLETT: I would have to check to see the total amount for the department. I am not aware of anyone who did media training last year in addition to the minister. Of course, we had two ministers during the fiscal year last year, so there may well have been two amounts there for ministerial training. We do have a total budget for training within the department, which is a fairly modest budget, but I can get that figure for you. I do not have it right here.

MR. PARSONS: You will provide us with that information?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

Treasury Board, also, does offer media training for staff, the bureaucrats in the department as well, but we would have had limited use of that last year.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, I am wondering if you might undertake to provide us as well with a breakdown of all entertainment, meal and travel expenses for your office and your executive in the past year?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am not sure of the process, but, Rick, you would -

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we can get a copy of what was charged to the minister's office, if that is appropriate.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

I will just move on, rather than slow things down. We will not get a chance to look at that right now. Perhaps we might get some copies for everybody.

Minister, how many contractual positions were hired in your department last year?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I am referring to my deputy.

MR. PARSONS: And, if you might elaborate as to what each of those contractual positions were hired for.

MR. HOLLETT: We have thirty-two seconded employees in the department. Those are all seconded teachers from the school system. So they would not show up on our permanent staff listing. They would be curriculum consultants in various parts of the department. We also had ten to twenty temporary employees during the course of the year. They would have been virtually all unionized positions within the department on for various purposes, and they did come out of our regular salary base.

In terms of contractual employees over and above, we had a Commissioner hired for the White Paper, Dr. Wayne Ludlow. He was there for a period of about six months. We also had an advisor to the Commissioner on the White Paper, Cyril Farrell. He was advising on college issues throughout the White Paper process, and we had one additional contractual researcher working on the White Paper with us as well during the last fiscal year. All of those contractual employees are now - they have finished their contracts.

MR. PARSONS: How many employees were laid off in the department last year?

MR. HOLLETT: We can provide you with that.

MR. PARSONS: Okay. I would appreciate that if you would. Are there any planned layoffs within the department for this year?

MR. HOLLETT: No, there are none.

MR. PARSONS: Can you also provide us with a detailed listing of all positions terminated within the department since November of 2003, including any severance costs and termination costs that you have incurred in your department as a result of that?

MR. HOLLETT: You are referring to departmental employees?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, we can do that.

MR. PARSONS: Any employees, contractual, the whole shooting match, that was relative to the Department of Education.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: You are not referring to school boards and that as well are you?

MR. PARSONS: No, just within the department. All positions.

MR. HOLLETT: For the merger of the two departments into one and -

MR. PARSONS: Yes. How it ended up at the end of the day.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Going back for a second to the public sector strike last year. How much did that cost the department in terms of - well, the impact overall I guess? I guess you people had some overtime and such as a counterbalance to that. What were the savings -

MR. HEDDERSON: Are you looking for what we -

MR. PARSONS: What were the savings versus what it cost you? I guess that netted out somewhere plus or minus.

MR. HAYWARD: We had savings of $3.6 million. We had overtime and other costs of $900,000. The gross savings were $4.5 million, less the total cost of $900,000 gets you around $3.6 million.

MR. HOLLETT: That would be not just in the department but that would have been in all the school districts as well; School for the Deaf, student assistants, et cetera.

MR. PARSONS: I would like to go back for a second, if I could, to the school bus issue. The fifty-three new school buses you alluded to for school boards. I take it, that is just funding for the debt servicing. Obviously, you are not going to buy fifty-three new buses for the figure that I saw there.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I wish we could.

MR. PARSONS: What is the setup anticipated to be in terms of how many years are you going to be servicing to buy fifty-three new buses?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, Rick, you can -

MR. PARSONS: Was the figure of $5 million, I saw in the Budget, for the debt servicing?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. It costs around eighty, eighty-five thousand for a new bus and we will amortize that over ten years.

MR. PARSONS: Over a ten year period. Okay.

I have been asked by several school bus contractors - in my area, for example, there are no school boards who have buses, it is all done by private contracting. There seems to be a lot of worry as to what they are going to do. You mentioned this morning the first time, I think - which would give any level of comfort to some of these guys - government moves back the years, for example, from fourteen to ten, I believe it is.

MR. HEDDERSON: Over a course of time.

MR. PARSONS: So that is over the course of time?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Because even as of two days ago, a school bus contractor in the Holyrood area asked me about it, and said: What are the rules? They don't seem to have a good appreciation yet of what is going to happen come September. Are they gone from fourteen back to ten immediately? If not, what are the implementation rules going to be? Some of these people have a great fear that, if the ten-year rule comes into place today, they are not going to be ready for September. Given the money they are getting on their current contracts they just said: Basically, we are out of business.

MR. HEDDERSON: What we are doing there, Kelvin, is we are looking at it on a go-forward basis. When the contracts go out now, we are going to try to facilitate, to make sure that the contractor can put a bus in service, a five-year old bus that in five years time, when the contract is finished, they would have gotten good use of that particular bus. If we just said arbitrarily now, we will go to ten years and everything else is out, it would not be - we have contracts out there even as we speak. It would be on a go-forward basis and we are trying to facilitate so that the contractors can purchase relatively newer buses, and that contract then would reflect that newer bus. We know what the cost of fuel is doing and insurance and so on and so forth.

Over the next couple of years, we are going to encourage contractors to come forward with newer buses but the contracts naturally would have to reflect that. I will anticipate that the contracts will have to be let for higher amounts. When I say that, contractors are going to have to look at it and obviously they cannot underbid. If there are expectations that they have a younger bus, the cost of that should be reflected in the tender. We are just hoping that people won't come in and start underbidding or something, because then that gets into a problem.

MR. PARSONS: That raises an issue that is also floating around. I am not sure if you are aware of it, but apparently DRL, which is a major public transit operator in the Province, have 100 buses in Nova Scotia that are not going to be of use to them come September. Has that been made known to your department and is there any anticipation that a lot of these operators in the Province right now, if we have 100 buses that are no longer, for whatever the reason, usable by DRL in Nova Scotia - apparently the plan is to come here and rather than have their buses sitting on the shelf, they can underbid any school bus operator in this Province. I am wondering if any thought has been given to that or if has been made known to your department that that might happen.

MR. HEDDERSON: Certainly, there is great apprehension because of what you are talking about there. It is the Public Tender Act and you know that once you put out a public tender it is very difficult to put serious restrictions on it, to stop the industry from bidding, or indeed underbidding. We are looking at it right now, to try to come up with ways in which we can ensure that there is some degree of robust competition out in the industry, to give everyone a chance to be able to, I suppose, put a good bid in and not underbid one another. If a company were to do that, we would have to look at something to try and guard against that. Again, it is a dilemma because we are dealing with the Public Tender Act.

Rick, just some thoughts on that, if you wouldn't mind sharing them with Mr. Parsons.

MR. HAYWARD: We gave 133 contracts coming up for renewal in 2005-2006. We will be going out with a tendering package that will try to address the age of the buses in a phase period, Mr. Parsons. Until we go out there with our public tender package we cannot anticipate what the industry is going to do. We will go out and DRL will bid in accordance with the Public Tender Act.

MR. PARSONS: With all due respect, and notwithstanding the Public Tender Act, I would think that part of your job would be to anticipate what the impact might be. If we have 133 school bus contractors and people who make their livelihoods, not only the operators but the drivers in this Province, and we face the possibility of someone like DRL's magnitude coming into this Province with 100 buses and saying, we are prepared to operate, knowing full well that once they put these guys out of business they are gone, I would think it is something you ought to anticipate might happen. I would think that is a very crucial, significant problem, and I am sure these bus contractors out there would like to know that the department, rather than saying we cannot anticipate it, has indeed anticipated it and is going to put some plan in place to try to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong; I am not against the Public Tender Act and I am not against competition, but there are circumstances, if that were to occur, whereby you would have to question whether that is fair competition: because somebody has 100 buses sitting on the shelf, they can possibly take advantage of a situation. That is what concerns me. Rather than be reactionary, I think you have to be proactive and have a plan in place to deal with that eventuality.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the plan in place is to look at the contracts that we are putting out and, within the Public Tender Act, try to ensure that what you are describing is not going to happen. Again, you know the limitations that we have with regard to the Public Tender Act.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, correct me again. I am trying to get factual here. I understand there was $500,000 in this year's budget on this issue of the busing, to deal with the school boards that do not have their own buses - the privates, we will call them, as opposed to the school boards.

Again, it is confusing because I heard this Mr. Callahan, who is apparently the president of these operators out of St. George's -

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) some operators.

MR. PARSONS: Some operators - make a comment on a CBC interview, saying: Oh, yes, the government is going to be there for the fourteen to ten year reduction. Government have put a plan in place to help with the financing.

That was the comment. I understand, based on your comments, this $500,000 is not, in fact, a pool to which a contractor would go and seek a loan. This is indeed money that you have set aside tying in with your possibility of having to increase -

MR. HEDDERSON: We fully anticipate the cost of those 133 contracts. If we are going to ask for the bus reductions to go in age from fourteen to ten, that is going to be reflected, as I just pointed out, in it, and we are anticipating that some of that money is going to have to be used towards that.

MR. PARSONS: So, the money that we are seeing is, if at all, for the possibility of increased contracts, to allow them to go get their own loans if they succeed in the contract, not a funding tool.

MR. HOLLETT: There is more than an additional $500,000 here as well. If you go to 3.1.02.10. and look at the Transportation of School Children, there is an increase there of about $3.5 million. What we have anticipated there, because when it comes to contract of busing we can only anticipate what those cost increases might be through the public tender process. We have anticipated that through normal increases the contractors would bid, that there would be about $850,000 this year because of increased fuel costs, insurance costs, et cetera.

As well, there is an extra $500,000 in there to pay for the debt servicing on new board-owned buses and there is an extra $1.5 million voted there as well to help decrease the average age of the fleet, because we are expecting that, in addition to all the fuel and insurance cost increases the contracted bus operators would be bidding this year, that if we put a requirement in there for them to reduce the age of their fleet on average then that is also going to increase their costs when they go out and finance those buses. So, there is $1.5 million in there, which is our estimate of how much we would have to add to the contracts in order to meet that objective of reducing the age of the fleet. So, overall, there is more than $500,000; it is more like $3 million in total for increased busing costs this year. It is not intended for loans or anything. That is the point that we wanted to make.

MR. PARSONS: On the White Paper issue, can you bring me up to snuff here? It is finished? Is the research done? Is the report filed? Has it been submitted? What is the status of the White Paper report now? Is it going to be released? Is it being studied? What is the score?

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, yes, the release is pending, but pending a final submission to the Cabinet. We are working through that Cabinet process and fully anticipate, if not the end of this month then the very beginning of May it will be released.

MR. PARSONS: Any prognosis, Mr. Minister - there is a lot of fear out there about these smaller campuses in places like St. Anthony, Stephenville Crossing, Port aux Basques, and places like that. Any fear that some of those campuses, which are very relevant to these rural areas, might in fact be closed?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I am not getting ahead of Cabinet decisions. As you know, I cannot. We are looking at the restructuring of the colleges. At this particular point in time, all I can say is that we are looking and that is an issue. It is a restructuring, so in restructuring there are possibly changes. With regard to campus closures, I will just reserve that until we release the paper.

MR. PARSONS: As opposed to your optimistic comments to the Member for Bellevue, we can take that as a pretty affirmative statement, that there will -

MR. HEDDERSON: My body language should read that I am optimistic, Kelvin, I will say that much to you, that there is some degree of optimism; because, like you said, we are working through it and making sure that what we are going to present is what is needed at this particular time.

I don't know, Rachelle, if you want to - Rachelle has been very much involved in the White Paper and if there are any specifics, certainly, she could respond to you. On that, obviously you know that I have to wait. There were two big areas. One was the tuition, and other was how we were going to restructure the College of the North Atlantic. I think the tuition, obviously, was tied very directly into the budget and that decision was made, but hopefully within the next couple of weeks when the report comes out you will see first-hand what directions we are taking with the college.

MR. PARSONS: The word on the street, Mr. Minister, is that there were, indeed, recommendations in the White Paper to close some small campuses - particularly St. Anthony and Baie Verte might be in jeopardy - but there was some political scramble from a certain two ministers and changes were made.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think you had better be careful about word on the street.

MR. PARSONS: Well, I like to tell it like it is, and that is, indeed, the word on the street -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, exactly, I know where you are coming from.

MR. PARSONS: - that certain representations were made once that was made known. I just like to think, at the end of the day, that process was done fairly and, once the report was submitted, there was no political tampering done with the report itself. If you do it, you do it on the basis of legitimacy rather than political input. That word is out there, indeed, that -

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, that word will not be put to rest until, of course, the paper is released.

I can assure you that we are plodding through it, if you want to say plodding, Kelvin, because, again, it is a very important document and the decisions coming out of this document have ramifications not only for the next year but certainly for the next five to ten years, and especially as it involves the presence of the College of the North Atlantic and indeed Memorial University, not only in the major areas of this Province but in every nook and cranny.

We are hoping - I am hoping, anyway - that, with the release of this paper, we can very quickly put to bed some of those fears and rumours that are going on out there and start to work to make sure that our public post-secondary is as strong if not stronger as we go forward.

CHAIR: Thank you.

We will just take a fifteen minute break and then we will come back.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I think we are all ready to start again. The minister is ready, and his staff.

Thank you for being prompt and returning right at fifteen minutes. That is nice.

I think, as we were wrapping up, Mr. Reid was anxious to start some questions. I turn the floor over to you, sir.

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To get back to a quick question on the busing, you said you put $500,000 in it this year, into the budget for -

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) busing.

MR. REID: Okay, but you also talked about putting money into the budget for the independent operators so that they could go out and purchase new buses, and, because of that, their tendering costs would go up and you had the $500,000 there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Not the $500,000. The $500,000 is for the debt servicing for the board buses. It is $1. 5 million that we are putting aside for the other initiatives. One is the driver safety, as well.

MR. REID: To talk about what my colleague from Burgeo was talking about, the possibility of one bus company ending up in the Province. I think the last year that I was the minister there were a group of bus companies on the North East Avalon, and the allegation was made that they colluded to drive up the prices. I think, at that time, we were talking about taking court action on that. Has that proceeded?

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to go back in that time, no we have not.

MR. REID: We just dropped it, is that right?

MR. HAYWARD: We are still trying to work through that, Mr. Reid, and I have no answer for you today.

MR. REID: That year the tenders came in relatively high and we went back out to tender only to find out that they came in even higher, because the companies got together and bid even higher. I mean, if you are going to put money in for new busing, whether it $500,000 or $100,000 or whatever, how are you going to distinguish between whether or not this is for the acquisition of new buses or if it is just someone driving the price up on a tender?

MR. HEDDERSON: There is always a danger, I say to you, in looking at the Public Tender Act and trying to stay within the bounds of that. Once you put a tender out there, Gerry, as you know, you do not necessarily have to accept it, but the reasons why you do not accept it you have to very, very careful and you have to stay within the law. I understand what you are saying, because the last thing I want to see is what you have described as a monopoly, if you want to put it that way, throughout the Province, or even in a specific area of the Province. As we go forward again, we are looking for ways in which we can, I suppose, address that, perhaps staggering contracts, different strategies that you can use in releasing them, or some of the conditions that you probably can put on within the Public Tender Act, realizing again that you are somewhat limited in what you can do. Once the tenders come in, if indeed there is evidence of collusion or other actions that may contravene that act, then I think we can act.

Again, I refer to the Deputy Minister. I think he wanted to have something to say there. Bruce.

MR. HOLLETT: There will be some cost increases we are expecting in contracted busing this year, that would not be related to the lowering of the fleet age. When we go out to tender we will require that the average age of the buses is coming down, and we do have an extra $1.5 million earmarked in our pupil transportation budget to account for the fact that is going to increase, the bids that are going to come in strictly from that, because they are going to have to go out and buy newer buses in order to meet that, some newer buses to put in with the fleet that they have, to bring the average age down.

MR. REID: To get off busing now: The seventy-five teachers that you are not taking out of the system this year - last year Treasury Board notified me that you were going to take out 220.

MR. HEDDERSON: Two hundred and twenty this year, and last year it was 256, was it?

MR. REID: Yes.

The seventy-five that you are not taking out of the system this year, you say is going to be to decrease the number of students in primary and elementary?

MR. HEDDERSON: Primary, we are geared towards the primary.

MR. REID: So, you are going to ensure that these seventy-five remaining teachers go into the primary system where they are required?

MR. HEDDERSON: What we are looking at there is that, of course, we are working in consultation with the boards as well. Looking at the commitment that we, as a government, made, by the end of this mandate there will be a class size of less than twenty-five in K to 3. We moved to kindergarten last year and grade 1 this year, but there is some flexibility for boards with their allocations to look at the K to 3 system. What I am hoping is that that flexibility we are allowing them will ensure that at least they can look at class sizes less than thirty as we move, in the next three years, towards to making sure that K to 3 would be less than twenty-five. There is some degree of flexibility there, a great deal.

MR. REID: Where in the Province do we get these classes of thirty in K to 3?

MR. HEDDERSON: You probably will see it in some of the larger areas, I would suspect, where you have dedicated K to 3 schools in excess of a couple hundred students.

Gerald, could you be more specific on that one?

MR. GALWAY: I think Mr. Reid is right in his observation that there would be very few K to 3 schools that would be above thirty. What the department is trying to do is make sure that those classes are around twenty-five or less. These extra fifty-two units out of the seventy-five, we have been working directly with the boards and urging them to apply those units to the primary grades. As the minister indicates, we anticipate that there should be no K and 1 classes above twenty-five. In our discussions with the boards we feel that the class sizes in 2 to 6 should be reasonably low as well. The goal is to try and keep the elementary grades below thirty. There may be one or two cases, Mr. Reid, in the St. John's area where a Grade 5 or 6 class might be thirty or thirty-one, but the goal is to try and keep all K to 6 classes under thirty, and particularly the K to 3 under twenty-five. There may be one or two instances where a Grade 3 class or a Grade 2 class goes over twenty-five.

MR. REID: I doubt very much if there are too many over twenty-three.

MR. GALWAY: There would not be a whole lot. In the larger centres, certainly, there are some situations where we have larger class sizes, particularly, as the minister indicates, in a dedicated primary school, or a dedicated primary/elementary school.

MR. REID: You mentioned the fifty-two number. I thought it was seventy-five.

MR. HEDDERSON: The twenty-three, then, would be the cultural strategy which would extend - that would be the primary/elementary that you referenced earlier.

MR. REID: So, you are going to make sure that twenty-three teachers are put into cultural?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is what they are allocated for.

MR. REID: I just find that a bit strange, when you have schools around the Province where they cannot offer the basic program and you are going to put twenty-three teachers - how many schools do we have in the Province, by the way?

MR. HEDDERSON: Three hundred and three.

MR. REID: Pardon me.

MR. HEDDERSON: Three hundred and three, plus the private schools that are there as well, and our institutional schools which you have to include.

MR. REID: Three hundred and three and you are going to put twenty-three into the culture. I am just thinking, when you say you have left seventy-five in there, if the seventy-five are going in to stay - fifty-two to reduce class size in K to 3 or K to 6 - I am not aware of one of those in my district. I do not think there are any up in yours, I say to the Member from the Northern Peninsula. Then you are going to put twenty-three over 300 and - how many schools?

MR. HEDDERSON: Three hundred and three.

MR. REID: Three hundred and three - to implement a culture program. I am not a betting man, but I would hazard to bet that I will not see one of those in my district.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, on the cultural part of it, Gerry, is this music aspect.

MR. REID: Yes, I know.

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess we are complementing or increasing the presence of music in the system, and this is where it is coming from. You know how many music teachers are dispersed throughout the system.

MR. REID: Yes, but twenty-three out there for culture and music out of 300 schools, when most schools do not have music now. Certainly, if they were given an extra teacher they would not want to put them into culture, because they would rather put them into math, science or English because they do not have enough teachers to teach in the classrooms now.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, that is your observation, and a pretty general observation, because obviously 303 schools are of different configurations and so on and so forth. To say that neither one of them are -

MR. REID: I never said neither one of them, but I would say that most schools in rural areas - I would think that if my colleague from Labrador West were given an opportunity, then he would say: Let's take the culture teacher you are going to put in Labrador West - I doubt if they are going to get one, and I doubt if they have K to 3 classes over twenty-five. They would probably say out there: Give us a French Emersion teacher.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is all about choices.

MR. REID: Yes, but that is not going to be possible when these teachers have to be used in the primary schools, fifty-two of them, and the other twenty-three have to be used for culture.

Anyway, that is an observation.

I noticed this morning that Mr. Gary Hatcher is not here. Is he still working with the department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary is, yes. Gary is on assignment on the road.

MR. REID: Ingrid Sheppard: I do not know if she works for the department or the department of works services. Is she still with your department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. REID: Those two individuals, I would say, probably know the physical structure of the school system more than anybody in the Province. If they were here today, I would just want to prove that to you. If you mention a school, they have probably been into it and they can probably tell you what the physical plan looks like and what needs to be done. I think you would all agree to that, wouldn't you?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: Then, I am going to ask you the question: Why are you spending $250,000 on trying to determine what schools need to be fixed in the Province? Why are you hiring consultants? Are there any consultants out there who have not had an opportunity to pick up a few government dollars? Why are you spending $250,000 when, as long as I can remember, each of the boards have an itemized, prioritized list of schools that they wish to have done? They have their own people on the ground in each board who can tell you the condition of the schools and what needs to be done. Then we have Gary Hatcher and Ingrid Sheppard who can basically tell you which windows need to be replaced in each of the schools around the Province. Why are we spending $250,000 on that study?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the purpose of the $250,000 is to put together the long-term plan, pan-provincial. Right now, as a matter of fact, Nova Central are well on their way to presenting, or have presented to government I suppose, their plan for the next five years. There are four other boards that we will also put it in. This money is to, I guess, help confirm what they are looking at and what they are putting forth. We need that money so that we can put together the comprehensive plan that is needed to give direction to this government for the next five years, as to what the priorities are. Again, when a board does an assessment of a school and says that we have this many savings and that many savings, as you know, we have to go back over that from the department to give an independent assessment as to whether or not the cost of that project is what is projected by the board, and confirm, or deny, or whatever what has come forward. That is where that money is going to be spent.

MR. REID: Yes, but what you just said has always taken part within the Department of Education in the past. Are you eliminating some employees over there who dealt with that?

MR. HEDDERSON: No. Au contraire, because right now we are moving ahead and are very, very much involved. That is why you do not see Mr. Hatchet or Ingrid here today, because basically they are moving forward with it.

MR. REID: Yes, but you gave the impression that this $250,000 would be given to some consultant -

MR. HEDDERSON: That was the impression that people took, yourself included.

MR. REID: As you said, the Central board is already putting together their five-year plan.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. REID: In the past that would be like their itemized list of what they wanted done, which school closures were going to happen, and how much savings were going to be realized through school closures. All of that was being done before. Why the extra $250,000?

MR. HEDDERSON: Because, again, we have to put together the comprehensive plan. Anyone can send in a list, as the Central board now has sent in, of where they want to go, but I have to confirm that, on behalf of the department, to make sure that, as the consulting stage gets underway, as we find out is this building really where it should be with regard to a state - but we cannot go forward, I cannot put forward to the Cabinet for decision making on that long-term provincial plan unless I make sure that we have looked at it and what we see is what, in fact, is actually there. So, it is confirming for, not only Central Nova, but, certainly, all the boards. You can see that it is going to be quite a comprehensive plan. I want to make sure, by asking for that $250,000, that I have the resources to make sure that plan which goes forward has been thoroughly researched, thoroughly planned out and that what is contained in that is, indeed, accurate.

MR. REID: I noticed in your expenses here - I think in June of last year you attended a Literacy Development Council meeting.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was as Parliamentary Secretary.

MR. REID: Yes. What is happening with that organization?

MR. HEDDERSON: The Literacy Development Council has been phased out as of December 31 of last year and there is an interim group referred to as LNAG that are currently working with the stakeholders to put together a community network. They have been mandated to look at and to engage with the literacy community out there. That is a followup, by the way, of a report that was done by the previous Administration in an evaluation report of the LDC which we, when coming into government, actioned, and as a result of that action the LDC were phased out. It was put on the legislative agenda of last session and, unfortunately, it was not gotten to and will be, hopefully, during the spring session. That is a move, I might also add, that was requested, for the most part, from the literacy community. That LDC - there was a feeling that the report authenticated that, basically, it needed to be done. We are just waiting now as that group works through their process.

MR. REID: Pathways, it is not something I know a lot about - I think, Gerald, you know what I am talking about. Apparently, in some schools these children with the different Pathways programs were not, sort of, integrated into the regular classroom. Is there a move to put these people back in now?

MR. HEDDERSON: Any particular group you are referring to, Gerry? Because Pathways, one to five - or is this -

MR. REID: Well, I guess it would be one.

MR. HEDDERSON: Pathway one would be the regular stream, if you want to call it that.

MR. REID: Okay. Well, I am going with Pathway five then.

MR. HEDDERSON: Pathway five would be the alternate.

MR. REID: Is there a move -

MR. HEDDERSON: Is there a particular age group or -

MR. REID: These would be high school students.

MR. HEDDERSON: High school students. Usually, Pathway five would be, perhaps, a school leaving certificate and mostly involving life skills.

Gerald, do you want to elaborate on that, perhaps, to clarify for the member?

MR. GALWAY: Well, certainly, the department's policy on inclusion would include all students who are not challenging needs, and to the extent possible, if it were in the student's interest to, for a time, try and integrate even challenging needs students into the regular classroom. That policy is, I guess, the same policy that has been in development for the last couple of years. The intent would be to formalize that policy this year. I mean, it has been in draft. Everyone has a copy of it. It has not yet been formally, kind of, proclaimed I guess.

MR. REID: So, would it be in effect in September?

MR. GALWAY: The intent is, absolutely, to move to a more inclusive environment. I am trying to get a sense of the group though, Mr. Reid, that you are particularly thinking about.

MR. REID: No, I would rather not tell you at this point.

MR. HEDDERSON: But on that point, Gerry, you know, the highspeed process should be in place dealing with a particular individual or a particular group. What I would be interested to find out is: What kind of a program was put together by that team? If that program was put together and could not be actioned for some reason or was not actioned, I think that is where I would like to have the information -

MR. REID: I am not saying that the program was not actioned. I am just saying that it was not actioned in a regular classroom stream.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, okay.

Again, without details it is very hard to respond to what you are saying. I know where you are coming from but perhaps if you want to have more of a conversation with me on it, I would welcome it.

MR. REID: On the library books, for the year or two that I was in Education we put $1 million a year into the libraries. Is that in there this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, go ahead. I am sorry, Rick is the library man.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, that $1 million has been added to the base by the library board. So it is there permanently now.

MR. REID: Good.

How many extra courses and how many extra students do you anticipate being taught through Distance Education this year? Additional students or additional courses?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have added a couple of courses.

Go with the specifics, Gerald.

MR. GALWAY: We anticipated an increase in students last year. I believe we had in the range of 2,000 registrations. Now some of those students would be registered for more than one course. Some of those registrations -

MR. REID: Is that over and above? What I mean (inaudible).

MR. GALWAY: Oh, no. I think the increase last year was somewhere in the range of 100 to 200 registrations. We are anticipating, over the next couple of years, to see a kind of leveling off of registrations because, again -

WITNESS: The numbers are going down.

MR. GALWAY: The students who are taking advantage of CDLI courses are mainly the students in the smaller communities and the smaller communities are - as we all know - the ones that have been taking the largest hit in terms of enrollment decline. So, we are anticipating a sort of leveling off over the next couple of years. There was an increase to the CDLI budget to put some additional teachers in last year and that is continuing for this year.

MR. REID: Leary's Brook, when are you going to give them the money? I understand that you are going to give them some this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: There are, I guess, two areas that we are looking at to review. One is Southern Labrador, the L'Anse au Clair to Pinware system. That was a cancellation. So it was just to go back and revisit that with the board to see if, indeed, we are going to move forward on it. The Leary's Brook is coming forward to Cabinet for, I guess, a decision.

MR. REID: But there is nothing in the Budget for it, is there?

MR. HEDDERSON: No. Basically, in that particular one, once we move beyond the Cabinet decision then we will see if there are any funds that we can allocate to carry out the decision of the Cabinet.

MR. REID: That would not be in this year's Budget. So any new money would -

MR. HEDDERSON: There is some flexibility there. Like I said, until it goes through the Cabinet process then we will have to look at - it is a priority in the sense of -

MR. REID: Where is the flexibility coming from?

MR. HEDDERSON: The flexibility - Rick or Bruce?

MR. HOLLETT: Mr. Reid, as you would be aware from your time in Education as well, with a lot of the capital projects like Herdmen, like some of the other ones, predicting the cash flows for the year is a little bit difficult at the beginning of the year. That will be part of the consideration on Leary's Brook as we get a better handle on exactly how much money we are going to flow on all of the projects, both new projects and projects that we are completing and ongoing from previous years. Then that will give us an idea of exactly how much cash flow we have available this year.

MR. REID: How much do you anticipate you are going to spend on Herdman?

MR. HEDDERSON: Three million this year. Are you looking for the total package?

MR. REID: Both.

MR. HEDDERSON: Three million and we are looking at, I guess, $10 million -

MR. HOLLETT: Around $10 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Ten million for the completed project. There might be $10 million and change now, but I am just saying in that vicinity.

MR. REID: Because in the Budget for Capital Expenditures you only announced -

MR. HEDDERSON: Three, Herdman and Mobile -

MR. REID: Mobile, yes, but that is a continuation. The other one -

MR. HEDDERSON: The Mobile system now, of course, is going in there and seeing that second phase because St. Bernard's is pretty much underway and just continuing through. There are some questions, of course, looking at the building up there and any equity left in it.

MR. REID: Where did the board get the extra funding, at the end of day, to do both of those projects?

MR. HEDDERSON: What, the Mobile?

MR. REID: Mobile and the other one out there, St. Bernard's.

MR. HEDDERSON: St. Bernard's was, again, that was actioned - Bruce, do you want to just go back over that one?

MR. REID: The original request from the board was to do Mobile as a K to 12 and close St. Bernard's. I think we put in around $4 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am not exactly sure of the history but - $4.5 million it was, yes.

MR. REID: When the board came back and discussed - because of some flack up in the area and the local MHA, they decided that they were going to do both. We said at the time that you were not getting anymore than the $4.5 million that we had put in the Budget for Mobile and they were going to take that, along with some savings from the board, and be able to complete the two projects. Is that what they did or did we add additional funding to it? Or are we now treating it as two separate projects and funding both projects?

MR. HOLLETT: It is all considered reconfiguration of the one system. There are a number of issues that have been looked at on that particular system since the very first look at it. There have been issues with things, seemingly very simple - with the water supply, for example, on whether or not the water supply in a particular area could handle the certain (inaudible).

MR. REID: That was one of the reasons that we were not going to do -

MR. HOLLETT: And the capacity -

MR. REID: That is the reason we wanted to move St. Bernard's into Mobile?

MR. HOLLETT: The other part is the economic value that is in the existing buildings and whether or not a new building or redevelopment of an existing building, which is the best course of action. What is in the cash flows for the current year is - the cost estimates for all projects have changed fairly significantly over the last couple of years. Steel costs, for example -

MR. REID: All right, Bruce, we are getting off the topic.

How much did you put into St. Bernard's because that is pretty well complete, you were saying?

MR. HOLLETT: Pretty well complete.

MR. REID: How much went into that?

MR. HOLLETT: We have $1.1 million budgeted for this year to complete -

MR. REID: This year, but how much have gone into it so far? What is the total cost of that project?

MR. HOLLETT: One-point-nine million.

MR. REID: That is what has gone into it already?

MR. HOLLETT: That is the total budget.

MR. REID: Total, $1.9 million. How much are you anticipating you are going to spend on Mobile?

MR. HOLLETT: Mobile would depend on looking at the existing building and the alternative of building a new school.

MR. REID: That has been looked at before, by the way, and the engineering consultants said that you should redevelop the old building.

MR. HEDDERSON: There were two done.

MR. REID: Well, there was one done since I left there. There was another one done.

MR. HEDDERSON: There were two done. One said nothing, there is nothing there, and the other said there is something there. So, we are revisiting it with that in mind to see where we are going to proceed.

MR. REID: So you commissioned another study in the last two years?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I don't think we have commissioned another study.

MR. HOLLETT: No, the engineering -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have the engineers. I am sorry, Gerry.

MR. REID: The first engineering study, how much was spent on that one to determine if that should be redeveloped or torn down and a new school built? That would have been back two or three years ago.

MR. HOLLETT: On the Mobile school, so far we have expended $60,060 to be exact. That would include fees and engineers.

MR. REID: What I am talking about now, Bruce, prior to me being there, there was a study conducted by an engineering company that went in - just like they did over in Corner Brook. An engineering company went in there, along with Gary Hatcher and Ingrid Shepard, and it was determined that it would be best, not just from a financial perspective, but all the reasons they give you, that we redevelop it. Obviously, there has been another study conducted since then.

MR. HOLLETT: It is not that, necessarily, a new study on any of these particular schools would have been done. What happens in all of these cases is, when the department hires an engineering consultant they would generally stay with the project until the project actually goes through, but from time to time, between Gary Hatcher and Ingrid Clarke and the engineering consultant that we have hired, as time elapses, either the condition of the existing building or the school demographics or other factors -

MR. REID: Or the people in the area want a new building rather than a redeveloped one.

MR. HOLLETT: In this particular case -

MR. REID: You have the Finance Minister living in your district.

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know if you can go that far. Again, you are making observations that are not based -

MR. REID: Anyway, there is another study ongoing as to - you do not know right now whether you are going to redevelop or build a new building there; is that what you are telling me?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. REID: So, you do not know how much you are going to spend on that.

MR. HEDDERSON: What we are doing is going in there to make sure that where we proceed is where we should be proceeding with regard to the needs of that particular school community.

MR. REID: We did that too.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was three years ago. Again, before we proceed with any project -

MR. REID: How much money is going into that project this year, on a building you do not know if you are going to tear down or redevelop?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we have to have the money there if we are going to proceed with the project, regardless of what we do.

MR. HOLLETT: We have estimated $2 million in cash flow for Mobile this year.

MR. REID: You do not know if you are going to tear it down or redevelop?

MR. HOLLETT: That is part of the assessment.

MR. REID: I guess that is where you are getting the money to do Leary's Brook.

MR. HEDDERSON: We talked about cash flow, right.

MR. REID: I can see how you get your cash flows now, because in actual fact you will not be spending any on Mobile this year unless you are going to take -

MR. HEDDERSON: You are jumping ahead of yourself there.

MR. REID: If you are going to build a new building, that means the money you have set aside this year will be spent, most of it, on demolition of the old one.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are moving forward on the project, and we have to make sure that if we are going to move forward in this particular fiscal year that we are going to have the resources to do so.

MR. REID: That is it for me.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Minister, on page 182 of the Estimates, in particular item 3.4.05., the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, I noticed, last year there were monies budgeted but not spent, and then the money is budgeted again for this year. What happened last year to prevent anything from happening?

MR. HEDDERSON: Re-tendering of that particular project.

MR. PARSONS: That is a federal-provincial project.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it is.

MR. PARSONS: Fifty-fifty, as I understand it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: When you say re-tender, what do you mean? What happens?

MR. HEDDERSON: There is a little bit of history there, so, if you do not mind, I am going to get Gerald just to go through it with you and bring you up to where we are right now.

MR. GALWAY: Mr. Parsons, yes, this is federal-provincial broadband expansion. There was money placed in the Budget last year but, due to a number of reasons, the federal election being one, and the difficulty in reaching a contribution agreement with the federal government, that money was not expended.

In the last fiscal year, the Province went to a Request for Proposals and an evaluation process. Last fall, a successful bidder was identified and we have begun a process of negotiating an agreement with the successful bidder; and, concurrently with that, we have been working towards developing a contribution arrangement with the federal government.

We are very close to finishing that work with the federal government and we are very close to signing an agreement with a service provider to do that broadband expansion, so we do anticipate that expenditure will be made this year.

MR. PARSONS: As of now it is exactly that estimate, the money has not been confirmed by the feds for this year?

MR. GALWAY: No, we do have an agreement with the federal government for a total investment in the project of $5 million by the federal government, $5 million by the provincial government. We anticipate that will take place over two fiscal years.

What the estimates show is $5 million with $2.5 million in countervailing revenues from the federal government, and in budget 2006-2007 we would anticipate seeing a similar line item with countervailing revenues of $2.5 million from the federal government. Then there will also be, as a part of that project, an investment by the private company that is going to be doing the expansion.

MR. PARSONS: This kind of stuff, broadband, is very relevant to rural Newfoundland in particular. How do you decide which areas get the servicing? Is there a committee, or is it a departmental thing?

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead, Gerald; I understand right where you are coming from.

MR. PARSONS: For someone who wants to be involved, what is the path that they should embark upon to try and get somewhere to be a part of this?

MR. GALWAY: The communities that were identified as being part of the broadband expansion were, in fact, the communities that are receiving CDLI services, the schools that are now receiving E-Learning through the CDLI, so all of those communities went on the list as a first priority.

As a second priority, all of the communities that were receiving satellite services through the satellite arrangements that are going to be coming to a conclusion this year were included as well. The bidders who came forward also, in providing broadband services to the communities that we had identified in the RFP, some of them came forward and said: Well, we are going to be passing by these two or three other communities along the way and we will be doing drops into those communities as well.

It became a process of, first, the schools that were receiving CDLI services; secondly, the schools, and most of these are elementary schools that were on satellite services, and the communities that they could do in between those points along the fibre run.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Minister, I just noticed a brief opportunity to look at your ministerial travel sheet that was handed out here, just in the event that one should always expand one's contact list, I guess, on March 7, 2005, Ottawa for media training. Who actually did the media training?

MR. HEDDERSON: That would be the McLoughlin Group.

MR. PARSONS: The McLoughlin Group.

Could you tell me the functions of the person's name there. You have Darrell Hynes also on that list.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was Minister Ottenheimer's executive assistant. What date was that?

MR. PARSONS: That would be 2004.

MR. HEDDERSON: In 2004, right.

MR. PARSONS: June 3, 2004.

MR. HEDDERSON: June 3, 2004. That was -

MR. PARSONS: Executive Assistant to the Minister.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Brian Ryan?

MR. HEDDERSON: He would be my executive assistant.

MR. PARSONS: Len Salter?

MR. HEDDERSON: My communications person.

MR. PARSONS: I just wonder. I am not sure how long Mr. Hollett has been there as deputy minister; he would probably be the more appropriate one to comment.

I notice from the Darrell Hynes claim of September 16, 2004, it says: Travel to Gander with the minister, and miscellaneous travel, but it does not show any ministerial travel actually having been done on September 16, 2004, by Minister Ottenheimer. I am wondering if there is an explanation for that, why he would say he was travelling with the minister but yet the minister does not show any claim for that day - unless the minister is travelling without making claims. That would be great news, too.

MR. HEDDERSON: I don't know about John's trips to Gander. I can tell you about the last one.

I am not sure. Again, I just defer to my deputy.

MR. HOLLETT: We can check that out for you, to find out what that is. It may well be a case where Darrell drove the minister out to Gander and put in his claim for driving the minister to a meeting in Gander. I do recall they went on a trip where they were supposed to go to the Gander area and basically got out there and had to turn around and come back.

MR. HEDDERSON: What date was that again?

MR. PARSONS: September 16, 2004. It shows travel to Gander with minister, and miscellaneous travel. Now, you are not talking a great deal. The gentleman claimed $35 for meals, and that was it. My question was, if that is the case and he travelled with the minister, the minister is not showing any airfare, any gas fare. There is nothing showing in that scenario that, if he travelled with the minister, the minister did not claim, and if the minister travelled with him, he did not claim it, unless that is the - there is another one beneath that, that says gas, no dates, no times, $509. I am just wondering if maybe there is some tie-in there with that $509 claim for gas. Maybe you could provide us, if you would, with the receipts actually submitted for those days - September 16, 2004.

MR. HEDDERSON: Absolutely.

MR. PARSONS: I have no further questions.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Are there any other members of the Committee who have not had an opportunity yet, who have some questions for the minister?

AN HON. MEMBER: I am saving mine until five to twelve.

CHAIR: Well, there won't be an opportunity at five to twelve, I am sorry.

That being said -

MR. BUTLER: I have another question.

CHAIR: Oh, I am sorry. I did not mean to cut you off. By all means.

MR. BUTLER: I mentioned earlier about Occupational Health and Safety doing inspections for the schools. It is my understanding that there were twenty-seven schools that were inspected last year by Occupational Health and Safety. I was wondering, those reports, when they came back -

CHAIR: Roland, your microphone.

MR. BUTLER: I am sorry. My apologies again for no mike.

I mentioned earlier about the Occupational Health and Safety visits to the various schools throughout the Province. To my understanding, twenty-seven schools were inspected last year by Occupational Health and Safety. I am just wondering what reports came back, and whether they were acted upon. Have all of those, I guess, issues that were sent to - hopefully they were sent to your department, after they visited them, if there were major problems and if they have been taken care of.

MR. HEDDERSON: Bruce will respond to that.

MR. HOLLETT: Occupational Health and Safety, they would go into a school when, for example, we are doing a major renovation, or any sort of a significant renovation, or if there has been a request or a complaint by somebody that they go in. The Occupational Health and Safety report itself would not come to the department; it would go to the board.

What always happens with the Occupational Health and Safety issues is that they will, for example, either put on a stop work order if they find some sort of problem, or will identify something in order for the school to reopen as a workplace, because that is what Occupational Health and Safety is concerned with, that the problem or the issue that they have identified would have to be resolved to their satisfaction before they would provide a clearance for that to go again.

For example, if they went into a school because they knew that there were some repairs going on because of a leak, and there was concern that there was mold on a windowsill, they would identify that as an issue. Through the boards, we would have somebody go in and rectify that issue. Then they would go in and inspect it again to ensure that issue has been taken care of and then give the all clear, so to speak. That happens through the board as opposed to coming into the department.

MR. BUTLER: In order to get the names of the twenty-seven schools, we would have to go to the various boards? The department would not have a listing on that, would they?

MR. HOLLETT: We should have a record of that. There may be cases where they would go directly to the board, and only the board would be aware of it, but, in practice, I believe that we were aware of all of them because we do keep a very close eye on all of the situations.

MR. BUTLER: It is possible, getting the names?

MR. HOLLETT: It is possible.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: I understand we will get it. I am sorry about that.

OFFICIAL: Words are important.

MR. BUTLER: Words are important, he says.

I just want to ask another two or three questions.

How much did government save as a result of the school board restructuring? Is there a figure on that?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have targeted $6 million over the next - I think it was three years at the time. We are certainly on track for that.

Again, Rick, just give us the basic details of it.

MR. HAYWARD: We budgeted $6 million by 2007-2008 to be saved, and we are on track. We are budgeting $5.1 million in savings this year.

MR. BUTLER: Five point one?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Could you inform us if any money has been allocated in the budget to address the issues related to the upcoming negotiations with the NLTA?

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess every year, with that in mind, we put aside money.

Again, Bruce?

MR. HOLLETT: We have no additional money put in our budget estimates for any upcoming negotiations with NLTA. We fund a staff position at the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards' Association, who is a specialist in the area of NLTA negotiations, the contracts with NLTA, but that would be the only item. That is a regular recurring item in the budget.

MR. BUTLER: Just another couple.

Gerry, when he was here, took some of them.

With regard to, I understand, the news media, I guess it is a known fact that there are expectations that there will be five school closures in Central this year. I am just wondering, do you have any knowledge of any other boards looking at the possibility of school closures within the other boards throughout the Province?

MR. HEDDERSON: What I have asked the boards to do, five of them, is to put their strategic plans in place for at least the next five years. Central Nova is the first out of the gates - out of the box, I should say - and the rest will follow. When that will happen, I did not put a time on it, but I would hope that prior to even the beginning of the next school year we will have an indication of where the boards would want to see their systems go within the next five years. Then that gets back to submission to the department, again, for our department to put together the pan provincial one so that we can bring it to Cabinet to look at financing those, I guess, changes over the next five years.

With regard to the number of school closures, if any, that would be pure speculation now on my part. We just have to wait and see, from the board perspective, where they feel they should be going.

MR. BUTLER: Government's 1.6 kilometres policy on busing students, are there any changes anticipated in that?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, that mile, or 1.6 kilometres, has been there since, I guess, time began.

OFFICIAL: It depends which end of the house your bedroom is in, whether you take the bus or not, sometimes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is true enough.

MR. BUTLER: There are no plans to look at it, or revise it, or anything like that?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, we are proceeding with that particular policy into this next year for sure.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

This one, I suppose, does not have all that much to do with your department but, then again, is tied to it. I was just wondering if someone could make a comment on the importance of the Kids Eat Smart Program. I know there are other programs but, when it is in relation to education, I am sure you get feedback from the schools, how it is working out in the system. I was just wondering if you could elaborate on the importance of that. I know it is continuing, but -

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess the breakfast programs, the Kids Eat Smart one, and there are some volunteer ones that go on even within schools, not associated with that, it is certainly a fabulous initiative and one which is very key to feeding, I guess, the children and students to make sure that their learning is optimal. Without a doubt, again, to see the program go forward is a positive thing. I do not know if you want specifics or whatever.

MR. BUTLER: It is a thing that is needed there and should continue. You can see the benefits from it.

MR. HEDDERSON: I certainly can.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

CHAIR: Well, thank you very much.

I will ask again: Is there anyone else who has not had an opportunity yet, who would like to ask some questions of the minister?

If not, I think we are ready for the question.

We agreed at the beginning that, to facilitate the discussion process, we would deal with all of them in a block from 1.1.01. to 4.5.02.

We will ask the Clerk if she would call them, and we will vote on them as a block.

CLERK: 1.1.01. to 4.5.02. inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. to 4.5.02. carry, inclusive?

AN HON. MEMBER: Nay.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Shall I report that they will carry without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.5.02. carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

You all have a copy of the schedule. The next time we meet is for the Department of Justice. Tomorrow night is Justice, it is at 7:00 o'clock, and we meet in the House.

Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.