Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Felix Collins, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's, replaces Keith Hutchings, MHA for Ferryland.

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Executive Dining Room.

CHAIR (Collins): The meeting of the Social Services Committee will now come to order.

The first housekeeping item of business to get out of the way is the minutes of the meeting this morning which is being circulated. Do we have a mover?

MR. KING: So moved.

CHAIR: A seconder that the minutes be adopted.

MS SULLIVAN: So moved.

CHAIR: Darin King and Susan Sullivan.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the minister and her officials. We are here today to debate the Estimates of the Department of Education and the Women's Policy Office.

First of all, I would ask the Committee to introduce themselves. I am Felix Collins, the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, and I am subbing this afternoon for Keith Hutchings, who is the Chair of this Committee.

MR. RIDGLEY: Keith Hutchings must be a fine man because Bob Ridgley, St. John's North, is substituting for Keith Hutchings.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, District of Port au Port.

Good evening, minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Susan Sullivan, Grand Falls-Windsor-Buchans.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, the District of Port de Grave.

I want to welcome you minister and your staff.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. REID: Scott Reid, I am researcher with the Liberal Opposition Office.

CHAIR: Thank you.

I will have the minister introduce her staff in a moment. Before we do, with respect to speaking time, we generally are pretty lenient with respect to the changeover of time. We usually try to keep it to ten minutes or so. The minister has fifteen minutes to start off with. Members can refer to each other by names as opposed to districts, if they wish. As well, I would ask every member when they are speaking, the minister's staff especially, to identify yourself to the mike before you answer a question.

Having said that, I would like to call on the minister - welcome, first of all, to the minister and your staff - would you introduce your officials, please?

MS HOWARD: Jacqueline Howard, Director of Communications with Education.

MS ROOME: Rebecca Roome, Deputy Minister of Education.

MS MACLELLAN: Heather MacLellan, ADM, Women's Policy.

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Director of Finance, Education.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell, ADM for Primary, Elementary and Secondary Programming with Education.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, ADM for Post-Secondary Education with the Department of Education.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, ADM Corporate Services, Education.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, ADM, Education.

CHAIR: Thank you.

The first item this evening we are debating, I understand, is the items on the Estimates in Women's Policy on page 20 of your book, and if the Clerk could call the first clause.

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01. Women's Policy Office.

CHAIR: Subhead 2.7.01.

I give the floor now to the minister for her opening remarks.

MS BURKE: I am ready for whatever questions you may have. That is my opening remarks, I am ready.

CHAIR: Okay, very good.

I see this is going to be an expedited proceeding. Having gotten that far, then we will entertain debate. I assume we will have some comments from the other side.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I was going to go with Ms Michael. I think she has some one-liners. I did not have any here, just a few questions. I will let her go with the one-liners first.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Looking at head 2.7.01., which, of course, is the Women's Policy Office. They are pretty straightforward questions. It is just to get the information on some variance, et cetera.

With regard to 01., which is the Salaries, I note that in the 2007-2008 Budget it was under spent and then this year, in the 2008-2009 Budget, the estimate is bringing it back up to the level of what was the budgeted level last year.

I just want an explanation of why there was under spending last year? I am assuming that there must have been a vacancy, vacant positions.

MS BURKE: Yes, that is correct. There was a delay in recruitment and therefore the budget would be reflected back up to the same level this year with just some adjustment for the salary increases.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Was it a particular program, minister, or just general administration?

MS BURKE: You can answer that.

MS MACLELLAN: It was primarily administration, on the financial and administration side.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

In subhead 0.3., Transportation and Communications, 2007-2008 Budget was under spent but this year the 2008-2009 estimate is much higher, about $90,000 higher than last year's estimate. What is the explanation for that?

MS BURKE: Well, some of our contracts came in under budget last year. So that accounts for some of it. Then last year what we did, which is going to be a removal now of one-time funding, was $10,000 for the linking of victims of violence. What the increased funding represents this year is the additional cost to prevent elder abuse and the provincial Healthy Aging Policy Framework, that is about $100,000.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

The elder abuse program, that began under last year's budget, or – because you had a special elder abuse program, I think, didn't you?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: How old is that program now?

MS BURKE: Do you want to speak to that, Heather?

MS MACLELLAN: The -

CHAIR: Could you identify yourself, please?

MS MACLELLAN: Yes, Heather MacLellan.

We allocated approximately $30,000, $40,000 in last year's budget to begin the development of a social marketing campaign on elder abuse, and that work is completed. Then we have additional money in the budget this year to actually launch it through radio ads and posters around the Province. We hope to launch that on World Elder Abuse Day, coming up in June. So that is on target and as planned.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much.

Subhead 05., Professional Services. Last year in the 2007-2008 Budget there was under spending, and even this year the estimate is still not up as high as last years estimate. So if I could just have a little explanation of what happens under Purchased Services?

MS BURKE: Under Professional Services?

MS MICHAEL: No, Purchased - was I correct?

No, no, 05., Professional. I am sorry, yes.

MS BURKE: Under the Professional Services, again, that is where we hire consultants to do the research projects - the evaluations and the surveys - and some of the policy and program development.

A lot of our contracts, again, came in lower than what we had anticipated. Then there has been a delay in two of our programs, the access project and the DVD courtroom, but there is $45,000 taken out because of the reduction that is needed for the linking victims of violence, as I had mentioned, and the one-time funding required under the Poverty Reduction Initiative. That is $30,000 for the first one, the linking funds, the victim, and the fifteen under the Poverty Reduction to $45,000 reduction.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Under 06., Purchased Services; again, there is an increase in the purchased services vote from last year's budget as well as last year's expenditure. The budget is about $260,000 more. What are you anticipating for that?

MS BURKE: The $260,000 additional is $160,000 additional funding for the social marketing to prevent violence and $100,000 for the additional funding for initiatives to prevent elder abuse.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Minister, would it be possible - I have asked this in other cases, too, and I will ask it for Grants and Subsidies also. Would it be possible for us to get a breakdown under both Professional Services and Purchased Services? I know that you have it, if we could get copies as a committee, if we could get copies of the breakdown? Is that possible?

MS BURKE: What do you mean, for next year? For what -

MS MICHAEL: For 2008, yes. I know that I have it for 2007. For example, I have here that in 2007 there was $40,000 into social marketing; $20,000 translation services for Justice; $10,000 for Safe and Caring Schools, education materials. Do you have a similar estimated breakdown for 2008, if we could have that because we do have the breakdown for 2007?

MS BURKE: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: I did not go through them, but the same way with the Professional Services. I have the listing for that. If you have an estimate for this year, please, that would be great.

Then my only other, not so much a question, it is subhead 10. Grants and Subsidies; slightly more this year, about $100,000 more in 2008-2009 over last year, and last year it was all spent.

Do you have more groups getting the subsidies or is the money going up to the current groups? Is the money increasing?

MS BURKE: The money has increased for $5,000 for each of the ten regional coordinating committees and $5,000 each for the eight women's centres. So, the funding goes to the ten regional antiviolence groups, the eight regional women's centres. Then there is an additional $20,000 to the Labrador group to cover some of their additional travel costs; $75,000 goes to the Transition House Association; $100,000 to the Sexual Assault Crisis Prevention Centre, and $200,000 for the Violence Prevention for Aboriginal Women, which leaves us with basically $10,000 that is unallocated.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay.

If we could then also have the breakdown for the Grants and Subsidies. For 05., 06. and 10., those three subheads, if we could have the breakdown that would be great.

I think that is all. I have a question, and I understand - it looks like you are sort of equally giving groups the increases, but with regard to the women's centres in particular, has there ever been an assessment done of actually sitting and deciding what a core staff would look like for a women's centre? If it should be two staff or one-and-a-half staff, actually look at the programming and decide what actually the staff should be for a women's centre? Has that been done?

MS MACLELLAN: Certainly, with the doubling of the money since 2004, from $50,000 now to $105,000, it has given women's centres capacity to do more. This dialogue has taken place with the boards of some of the women's centres internally to look at the fact that they want to have an assistant. At friends of Labrador West, I believe they have an assistant, whereas it is not seen as being so necessary in Gander. Each one of them, I guess, in terms of how they want to set their work plan with their board has that opportunity to have that discussion.

MS MICHAEL: Is it taken for granted that the money to the women's centres is to go to staffing or is it supposed to cover other expenses as well?

MS BURKE: That will cover their expenses. That is not just staff dollars.

MS MICHAEL: It is not a lot in that sense then because you are talking about staffing plus other expenses.

I guess all I am asking is, has there been an assessment of - and you are saying it has happened one on one in some cases - what a core staff should be? Should it be two, for example, and then if it were, how much money would you need for that along with other expenses? Has that kind of assessment been done?

MS BURKE: It has not been done by the Women's Policy Office.

MS MICHAEL: It has not. I mean for the women's centres?

MS BURKE: No, we have not done - we do not have that type of study that you are asking about.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

I would just like to suggest it might be a good one to do. I will just throw it out as a thought.

I think that is all of my questions.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

You will have to forgive me with those questions (inaudible) because I only inherited those when I was leaving the building.

MS MICHAEL: Roland, your mike.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, I am sorry. You heard what I said, didn't you?

MS BURKE: Indeed I did.

MR. BUTLER: I want to make is very clear to all those, I know you did not have an opening statement but I am not here tonight to prolong this any more then just get the questions answered that I have and not to stay here all night.

One of the questions I have here is pertaining to housing, and I am just reviewing this as I go through it. Apparently the Labrador City Status of Women and I believe also, it was mentioned, the Bay St. George Status of Women have echoed the same concerns about how they are finding it difficult to find places to live and so on.

My question is: I am wondering if the $1.4 million will address the growing concerns that have been expressed?

MS BURKE: I am not sure what $1.4 million you are referring to.

MR. BUTLER: I cannot be of any help to you. That is only what I -

MS BURKE: We do not administer housing through the Women's Policy Office. We would work with our funding arm of government which would be Newfoundland and Labrador Housing through the Department of HRLE. We would work with them certainly if there are policies being developed or anything or if they needed a gender analysis or they needed us to look at it, but specifically as Women's Policy Office we would not deliver any housing.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe the way it is meant to be, if someone else were here to ask you this question to get it across - probably from your perspective the women's policy would be involved knowing the issues that are out there, wondering if the funding that is being put forward by another division would take care of the issues out around. I do not know, maybe that is (inaudible).

MS BURKE: I know we have certainly invested in - I do not want to speak for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing here – invested in the affordable housing. I understand, when they do a call for affordable housing, we have certainly seen significant uptake in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly in Bay St. George, for that type of housing initiative.

MR. BUTLER: We all hear, I guess, about the public sector pensioners and the question here is: I was wondering if your officer was involved in putting recommendations forward to government, where this has been a concern of the women just as well as anybody else when it comes to the public sector pensions and the indexing?

MS BURKE: We have not been approached as the Women's Policy Office to assist or to review any gender analysis that would come through Treasury Board or the Department of Finance in relation to that matter.

MR. BUTLER: I have another one here. The government has been approached to provide legislation for mid-wives and what is says here is that government has rejected that. I am just wondering if the women's policy or your department has done any lobbying with government to have this reconsidered.

MS BURKE: Well, we certainly would work with Health and Community Services on that particular policy. That would be determined through that department as to whether or not that is a road that they want to go down, but certainly as the Women's Policy Office we would be very much engaged and interested in having that dialogue.

MR. BUTLER: I am going to leave that now, and review the others later. We are finished with this until then, aren't we?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: There was another one here with regards to the representation that was put forward by the Office of the Citizen's Representative, about the penitentiary for Labrador. The funding that is being allocated, do you think it would look after the needs of the women who would frequent those detention centres, and has there been any involvement with the Women's Policy Office along that line?

MS BURKE: We have been involved not so much with the funding and where it would go and how it would be set up, but certainly last year when the report came out we looked at it and we did our own analysis of that report, and certainly acknowledged that aboriginal women who are sentenced have unique needs. I guess my concern is, not so much whether physically the location is in Labrador and how we set it up and how we service it, as much as if we have women who are incarcerated, whether it is at the Newfoundland and Labrador Correctional Centre for Women in Clarenville or in a particular lockup in any RCMP detachment, that I would like to make sure that the recommendations that came from the Louis Arbour report, back probably in the early to mid-1990's on the situation and the policies that were advanced based on the issues at P for W in Kingston, I would like to make sure that as we move ahead, whether it is in our provincial institutions or our lockups, that the basic premise of that report is certainly upheld and we base any policies on a go-forward basis on that. My concern is primarily not on location, as much as on the due process and the procedures that are followed once somebody is incarcerated, like I said, whether it is in a lockup facility or in an institution.

MR. BUTLER: That is all, Sir, I have with regard to the Women's Policy, unless Ms Michael has any others?

CHAIR: Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL: Well, it is for the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women. I think it is on the same page, and I think both are probably being done together.

CHAIR: Yes, both items on that page.

MS MICHAEL: We are talking about 2.7.02, the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

I note that the grant to the council is going up approximately $100,000 over last year's expenditures, and could we just have an explanation of that. I am glad to see it, but where it is mainly going.

MS BURKE: Last year, basically, it looked like they lost money because of the sale of the building and so they had money that we did not have to provide last year, but we did increase it by $94,000 last year for the policy analyst position. Although it looks like an increase and there was a slight increase, technically it is status quo because we are only putting back the money that we did not have to put in last year based on the sale of the building.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

I do not know, I did not have time to check and I do not think my researcher did either, but is their annual report out yet for 2007? Because I know the report is where I find all the details on their expenditures.

MS BURKE: That should be out and tabled.

MS MICHAEL: It should be out?

MS BURKE: I would have said it very confidently until you asked - shake your confidence. It is my understanding it is.

MS MICHAEL: The last one I remember seeing is 2006. I do not remember seeing 2007 but I will check and see. If it is not we will check in with you or check online. I do remember 2006

That is it, Mr. Chair, thank you.

CHAIR: Any further questions on Women's Policy?

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01, Women's Policy Office.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 2.7.01 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion subhead 2.7.01 carried.

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.02.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 2.7.02 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subhead 2.7.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the totals carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Women's Policy Office, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates on Women's Policy Office carried without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Women's Policy Office Estimates carried without amendment.

CHAIR: We now proceed to the Department of Education, Page 179.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01, Minister's Office.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Roland.

CHAIR: Roland.

MR. BUTLER: Just some questions, Minister.

I guess the first one is with regards to student achievement. Can the minister give an update on achievement levels? I know from time to time we hear good news about different aspects of it, of our students at both the provincial and the national level, for example, the Pan-Canadian test that was reported on recently. I am wondering if, through your department, do we as a Province help to cover the costs of those tests with other provinces?

MS BURKE: Well the PCAP that you mentioned, it was done by CMEC and, of course, we are a partner in CMEC so there is funding in CMEC for that type of work to be done.

With regard to assessment and student achievement, one thing that I think is necessary that we do in the department is certainly look at how our students do. We have intervals in which we test and we get that information back, and they are fairly common intervals. As people would know, we do the CRTs at grades three, six and nine, and we do the public exams as well. We use that student achievement data for a lot of different reasons. It all goes basically back to the whole issue of accountability and what are we accountable for. If we do not have student achievement as our number one goal in the education system, well what is it we are actually trying to do here?

We use the student achievement data for curriculum development. We use it to help us look at the basic needs when we do up our teacher allocation formula. We look at it to determine how we are doing in high school and how our students are performing at the post-secondary level, how they transition from one level to the other. We have used it in our Excellence in Mathematics Strategy that we use and we also participate in a number of – which is the PCAP now and PISA which gives us some understand of where we sit as a Province, as well where Canada sits as a country and where we sit in that level as well.

We certainly use student achievement at different intervals that feeds the whole accountability of what we are trying to accomplish.

MR. BUTLER: I know, Minister, I wrote you a letter about this one time and you did respond to me, but I just wanted to question on it again now. That situation was, I think this young fellow had a problem with reading and different aspects in the school. There was very little done all the way up through even though they knew there was a problem there. Every year he kept passing and finally his mother was crying out, I guess, to the system. This year I think he is in Grade nine, and there was a new gentleman - I cannot think of his name – who moved to the school board office in Spaniard's Bay, and he said: look, seeing as you are crying out, I know you are sincere and I want to have a look at this.

When he looked at it, even though he thought by what he saw on paper there was nothing wrong, even though she seemed sincere - as a matter of fact, I went down and met with him on behalf of the family and he showed me the test results that came back. He was utterly shocked and could not understand why this young gentleman reached the level of grade nine when he did and now he is going into high school. There are supports put there now for him, thank God, to help him. He went all this distance, and I was just wondering – and I know there is money, Minister, announced, good money for everything in Education this year and last year. I am wondering: is there anything there to help those at the lower levels probably to be detected more? I am not saying the teachers fell down on the job or who fell down on the job, but this young fellow went to grade 9 and I was just wondering: is there more there now, because it seems like there are quite a few issues with regards to younger people having problems with reading and so on?

MS BURKE: One thing that that hits on - and when we did up the new method of allocation for teachers one thing we did not change was the allocation for guidance counsellors. That hits on how I am going to lead into what you are talking about. In my opinion right now and in the direction that we are moving is, I see the system right now really lacks accountability. If somebody needs a referral for an assessment there is no system in place that the teacher enters that referral, that a supervisor takes that referral and assigns it to a person, that they have content guidelines that they have to follow and timelines to get that report back into the system, co-signed for quality control and shared back with the teacher and the family. That is exactly what we are trying to develop.

Now, whether this is true or not I hear it anecdotally, that assessments are required but never done. I am thinking, well, who is supervising that assessment to say, okay, this was requested on October 1 and you had until December 1 to get it done? Who picks up the phone on December 1 and phones the person who is supposed to do that assessment and says, where is it? The other thing is, it has to be done to certain content guidelines and using certain assessment tools. That is not that a guidance counsellor or an educational psychologist at one board can pick and choose what they want to do versus somebody in another board. We certainly need consistency that is absolutely lacking in the system. It became very apparent through the ISSP review and we actually have somebody hired right now who is moving us in that direction.

What I think is missing is the referral for the assessment and the supervisor to assign it. The content guidelines need to be developed and the assessment tools need to be consistent across the Province. It needs to be co-signed for quality control and it needs to be made sure that it goes back to the parents and the teachers in a timely manner. I think once we get that structure in place – now, I will also go so far as to say that I think maybe there could be assessments that are required that are not necessary. In a case like that, I also feel it is incumbent for that report to be assigned and for the professional who feels that that report is not necessary to put their professional opinion back, enter it into the system, have it co-signed, and it goes back to the parent and the teacher as to why it is not done. That should break away some of this anecdotal information that we are hearing. It should also catch cases like that. If there is a teacher throughout the years or a parent who has concerns and wants testing done, we should at least have a record of what years that has been required and the results will have to go back to the parents in a timely manner.

I hear what you are saying on that. When I got into the system I tried to switch from, you know, being very much structured in a case management way of thinking into a system that did not have it. The ISSP certainly brought that back to light, that we have to get that developed. If it was based on that I did not think we were able to move ahead with any changes in the ratio of guidance counsellors to students until we get that piece of work done to make sure that our guidance counsellors or other professionals who do assessments are basically being able to focus on the work that needs to be done as opposed to sometimes probably being a dumping ground for everything. They are there for a reason and this is the core of what we are going to do because if we cannot get our students assessed and get the needs done, student achievement is not going to happen anyway. So we have to bring it right back to what we are there for in the first place and that is to serve the student.

At the Janeway, they do it there, but are three audiologists short - or there were, I should say, at that time. The gentleman over there said there are other people in the Province if they were trained but it had nothing to do with - this is another case which is in the education system, everyone is supporting it and saying this has to be done. This family was told this young girl would not get this testing done, as it goes now, until she was in Grade 8, and here she is in Grade 5; three years before they thought that she could get there. I am not blaming it on anybody, like the education, but it just goes to show that is another situation that is in the system, and because in conjunction with someone else.

Why I asked you this question, this guy said to me, maybe the Department of Education, if the audiologist was not at the School for the Deaf on a full-time basis but probably not busy all the time, could they take some of those people from the schools if they thought the guidance counsellors and everyone else was saying this is a serious situation, it should be dealt with earlier. You have not had anything along those lines, or could that be considered?

MS BURKE: Well, I have not had that but it absolutely could be considered.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I guess the provincial wide priority list of infrastructure, like needs for schools and things, is there such a list that exists? I know it is out there but can that be provided, what the list would be for the Province? I know money is not there to do it all the one time. I am not asking for that reason, but I am just wondering, is there a list of what infrastructure needs has to be done?

MS BURKE: There is a list that is generated, that is an exhaustive list, that was created a few years back and I guess it gets added to as things are identified. What the boards do is from that list they put in their priorities. So based on, I guess, the year, the student enrollment, the condition of the building, whatever. Although there is a list and there are priorities, it is somewhat fluid because it would depend on whether or not you need extra classrooms, or whether or not you are going to close a building, or whether or not the building is deteriorating. We do have a list of all the work that is required but we still depend on the boards. Like Central would have had that in a public motion as to what their priorities were that they bring forward. So as much as it is there it is not ranked, and we depend a lot on working with the boards to do that particular ranking.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The air quality issue that was ongoing last year - and I know I asked questions about this in the House, and you did mention to me that they would be dealt with as the need came up. I believe, I can be corrected, that this year there was $2.6 million approved for eighty-seven air quality projects in the Province. I was wondering, did all those projects come forward about that time when that issue was ongoing? Are they the only schools, or is it possible there may be other schools that might fall into the same category?

MS BURKE: Well, we had a number of projects that would have been in the queue that we would have been doing. We would have also had a number of projects that would have advanced based on an emergency level, and that would be particularly, for example, Upper Island Cove, Western Bay, Swift Current. Then last year we had Presentation, Humber Elementary. As much as we have work identified and we are doing a lot of work in the roofing, windows, that type of work to improve the air quality, we also have the enhanced inspections that are being done through co-operation with Government Services. So, we also have that other mechanism there in place to not just do the work that is necessarily in the queue, but to go in and identify other work that may need to be done. Those eighty-seven would not have come as a result - some of them would have been, like the roofing projects that would have been on our list to be done.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Fire inspections; and we have heard a lot about that, I am sure, recently in different areas. We have heard the stories about the local fire departments go in, do the inspections and so on. I was just wondering - and I heard you explain in the House how officials within the school, whoever they are, compile a report, I do not know if it is on a daily or weekly basis or what have you. I was wondering, once that is done and that is compiled, does all that from the schools go to a school board, or does it come into the Department of Education once they compile that report?

MS BURKE: On a daily basis there is a checklist to ensure that regular fire safety practices are followed. That report is completed on a daily basis, signed by the principal, who then in turn sends it into the school board on a monthly basis. Then the school board - there would be a regional manager of operations who would be able to identify schools who, A, are not doing the checklists and say it needs to be done, or B, to be able to identify what work from these checklists would need to be actioned and carried out.

I think that the board could do a better job in their accountability of how they take in that information and record it on a monthly basis. The process is all in place but it comes back to a lot of the issues I have around accountability, and to me it is a very simple process. These reports come in, you enter them into an Excel spreadsheet, you identify where works needs to be done, you identify schools that do not have it in and you send out and ask for the reports. So it is coming in, but I think there needs to be more accountability at the board level to follow up with that type of work.

MR. BUTLER: School bus safety; I know the inspections are done through another department, but where the issue has risen recently in P.E.I. and they have identified some major problems up there. I was just wondering, through your department, has anything transpired in conjunction with the other departments to see that there may be additional inspections done at this time with regards to school bus safety?

MR. HAYWARD: P.E.I. did not have an age limit and they found that a lot of the deficiencies in the buses up there were for buses greater than fourteen years old.

Secondly, we have two mandatory inspections a year on our buses and there could be a third one. We think there is a rigorous inspection program. We have invested almost $8 million in the last three, four years to reduce the average age of a school bus. So we believe that the inspection processes out there are working. We have asked Government Services to follow up and be engaged in the P.E.I. process to make that there are no issues with our particular buses. The issue up there was with the old buses, fifteen to twenty years old.

MR. BUTLER: I guess anything you do here would be in conjunction with the buses that are owned by, I will say the department or the boards, whoever, and the private operators as well, wouldn't it?

MS BURKE: Both.

MR. HAYWARD: Both, yes.

MR. BUTLER: With regards to the consolidation of the school boards. I was just wondering, are they achieving the objectives government had set out at the time when they were consolidated? No doubt, there was savings in money. I am just wondering, all of that was reinvested in some phase of the education system?

MS BURKE: Do you mean did we get the efficiencies that we were looking for at the board level?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, once they consolidated.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, there were administrative savings realized in the initial years, but as you stated earlier, government continues to invest in school boards, through technicians last year, through the repairs and maintenance block and through additional staffing units. So we have also reinvested where there were deficiencies identified by school boards and brought forward to government to have another look at.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, the Learning Disabilities Association - I know back sometime ago they were trying to get a meeting with you. I was wondering, have you had the opportunity to meet with this group?

MS BURKE: We have not been able to schedule a meeting. We will, because the person who wanted to meet with me was going on a six-week vacation. I assume if she is back in the Province I will hear, but that was the reason why they did not get the meeting.

MR. BUTLER: A couple of questions, I guess, in relation to the ISSP Pathway model. I know there were seventy-some-odd recommendations, I think, that were to go on a forward basis. I just want to touch on the other ones. I suppose you can use the word rejected or put aside for the time being or whatever. Like number, I think it was number forty-eight, development of a parent support network for parents of children with exceptionalities. I was wondering, what was the reason that one was not included with the others? More or less just an explanation.

MS BURKE: The reason why that was not included was based on the fact that we have a lot of support groups that are available for parents now, whether it is with regards to say Down's syndrome or Autism or learning disabilities. There are various groups out there now and we thought it would be important, not that we rejected the concept because the concept of having parents being able to access information and support is certainly something that I would support. What we thought would be more important is to try to make sure that parents and schools had information as to where they could find the support and this existing research and have that support network available. So we did not reject it on the basis that we did not think it was appropriate. We just felt that there are a number of groups in the Province, or nationally, where parents could access information and support.

MR. BUTLER: The other one, I think it was recommendation fifty-one, which outlines and publicizes the appeals process for parents. I think I heard it explained before. I just want you to clarify it. I think it was, more or less, that there was already an appeal process in place. Could you just elaborate on that a little?

MS BURKE: Yes. Under the School's Act there is an appeals process in place. Up to this point it has not been used a lot. However, it is there. It is in legislation and we should encourage parents or individuals to use it. I have also asked the boards to make sure that the appeals process is known to parents and it is outlined to parents. When they are given a decision, that it is also noted that this is a decision that can be appealed and this is the process to appeal. What I have been finding is that the word appeal itself has been used in very different terms, and I have found this in some of the discussion I have had around this. If somebody phones the minister's office or phones the Director of Education or phones someone, they consider that an appeal. I have appealed to the minister. Well, we have to try to separate that; that is not what I am talking about here. I want it to be - just like if it is Workers' Compensation or HRLE, there is an appeal process in legislation. It is in place and you should use it. It would give you then an opportunity to be able to lay out your case in a professional environment that the decision makers can hear both sides and make a decision on it.

I have asked the boards to look over their policy to make sure that if they need to redevelop or add on to some of their by-laws to make it more user friendly because it has not been used, that is fair enough. I am not opposed to helping it grow but we have to start somewhere with it and it is there in the legislation. We really did not need to set up a second appeal process because you would wonder what the first one was in legislation for in the first place. I think one thing that I am going to be very much adamant to try to do myself, as minister, is I often get stuff coming to me as minister, wanting me to go out and solve the issues. I am going to be very clear that I go back to the people who come to me, explain the appeal process and outline where they need to go, as I would if it was an HRLE issue or a Workers' Compensation issue, but I think that parents do have that right. If they disagree with a decision, they have a right to present their side and have a fair hearing where somebody who is unbiased can listen to both sides and make a ruling on it. I think that is fundamental.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, and I am glad you mentioned the others, like Workers' Compensation. If somebody gets rejected at Workers' Compensation, the first thing they have is what they call an internal review, which is the same - not the same person, I guess. The case manager does not look after it, but someone in the system there looks at it. Then if that fails, they go out to their regular appeal.

MS BURKE: Yes, and HRLE is the very same thing. The first process is an internal appeal and if that - because sometimes, in all fairness, there can be an error; an error in judgement, it could be an error in a case, it could be a piece of missing information or something like that. That is not to say that your first process, to have someone review it, cannot resolve it. I think that is where it always needs to go, but when there is a fundamental disagreement over a decision, that is when your appeal process needs to be developed.

MR. BUTLER: Recommendation fifty-seven is the one with Memorial University, amend the requirements for the undergraduate Education degree program, and there were two courses there. I was just wondering, before that one - minister, you will have to forgive me. I am using rejected again, even though that is not the right word. I am wondering if you discussed this with Memorial University before it was decided that you would not proceed with that one at this time?

MS BURKE: We are going to proceed in discussions with Memorial University as to the fact that we feel these courses are necessary but we could not adopt them as government policy because we do not have that level of jurisdiction to tell the Faculty of Education what courses they have to offer. That would certainly go through their academic counsel and their senate. We rejected it, for lack of better words, because it was not a decision that we could make, but it is certainly one that we support and we want to work with the university to make sure that that is offered.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering: what processes are in place to monitor the implementation of the recommendations that the department has agreed to proceed with?

MS BURKE: Actually, I was supposed to have done an update on this last week. Last Monday I was going to do a press conference but had health issues and could not do it. We wanted to provide an update on that, but that is certainly something that we are monitoring within the department and the progress. There are action plans. Based on all of the recommendations that we have accepted we have developed action plans with time lines and we will be reviewing that on a regular basis. We will provide updates on a regular basis as well.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, how am I doing for time? I do not want to hog the issue, because there is a time limit.

CHAIR: You can carry on if you wish, Mr. Butler, if you have another question in the same vein of questions.

MR. BUTLER: I have one other one before I go to another topic. It is in the same vein for me, it is probably in a different vein for the minister.

CHAIR: Complete that one and then we will switch to Ms Michael.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, from time to time we hear and we see articles from professionals out in the field relating to where they see a lot of young people entering the justice system, unfortunately, to people who have problems in the schools, whether it is through disabilities or probably some of the issues like the young fellow I mentioned earlier.

I am just wondering: do you see that as an issue and is there much of that happening that you know of?

MS BURKE: Do you mean entering the criminal justice system?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I do not know what their titles are but a correctional officer at the Whitbourne Centre in there made a comment on that back in the media some time ago, that he felt the ones who were coming through their system were people who were falling through the cracks, if you want, with the educational system, for whatever reasons. He was tying the two of it together. I was just wondering what your comments were on that.

MS BURKE: My comment on that is the fact that I do not necessarily feel the educational system would lead somebody into criminal behaviour. I would think that by the time a young person ends up in Whitbourne - and we had thirteen, on the average, in our school out there last year - that there are probably other issues at play. I would think, if we looked at them it could be anything from family issues, there could be victims of violence, there could be children who witness violence within their homes or have been victims themselves. There are also issues related to addictions, whether the young person is using or whether the young person is exposed to those issues. There are issues around parenting. Regardless of the age, if you are a parent you have to parent. There are issues a lot of times with regard to parenting, for not providing adequate supervision, certainly not providing supervision for homework, for appropriate budgeting within the home and meeting the needs of the young person.

There are a number of things sometimes at play and I would think if we took any particular young person who went through Whitbourne and we examined different areas of their life, I would be very, very surprised if the only factor that seemed to have a negative slant to it all was their education. I am not saying that the education system and the frustrations they feel within it do not necessarily add to all of the issues that bring them into the criminal justice system, but I would be very surprised if we could break it down and find out it is the only factor that led to criminal activity.

MR. BUTLER: Let me assure you, I did not mean to say that the educational system was what brought them to the Whitbourne Centre. I will just go back to the young fellow I mentioned earlier who had this problem going up through school. Only for the strict parents that he had, he would have went the wayward way, if I can use that terminology, because he was so let down with what he could accomplish in school because his peers were at a certain level and he could not get there. Only for his parents he would have probably gone out and gotten into the other issues you are referring to, whether it be the drugs or whatever, and ended up there that way. That is where I was coming from.

MS BURKE: I guess there are a lot of social issues. You just cannot isolate it to one area.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Minister, I am going to sort of revert to the Estimates and work from the Estimates, and then if I have any general questions that will come up for the most part under that.

Beginning with head 1.2.01, Executive Support and looking at subhead 01, Salaries: in Budget 2007-2008, the budget was revised up by approximately $120,000 over the revision and then it looks like it is being maintained at that level with a bit more added on in this year's Budget. Could we just have an explanation of that revision that occurred? It looks like there were new staff added.

MS BURKE: Yes, we added an additional ADM position, Ramona Cole, who is doing the Grenfell review for us, and a Policy Analyst as well to assist us with the Grenfell review. There was also a severance payout there to an employee. That was a substantial payout. Then the estimates are up for this year. Again it is reclassification and some step increments and the ADM position for the Grenfell review.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Moving over to head 2.1.01, Administrative Support: there is not a lot there, actually. That is actually pretty straightforward.

Head 2.1.02, Assistance to Education Agencies and Advisory Committees, because the amounts in the other one are fairly minor – I am sorry, I will go back, 2.1.01, Administrative Support, subhead 10, the Grants and Subsidies. You obviously maintain a certain amount of money under Grants and Subsidies, and last year in 2007-2008 only spent $15,000 of the $55,000. What would the grants and subsidies under this head be going towards?

MS BURKE: A lot of times there are requests that come into the department that do not necessarily fit with some of our programs that are there, but certainly very noble requests that come in that we are able to spend money to assist with. It could be like the robotics team going to San Diego. It could be something along those lines, some travel for a school. Recently an author visited to do a workshop with students, and we will pay for that.

It went down last year because there is discretion used around that money, and it was an election year. It is just a personal concern I had, that it could be misconstrued as doing favours there, so I was really cautious. I put the brakes on it, basically.

MS MICHAEL: Probably very wisely, I would suggest.

But ultimately the decision is in your hands, is it, about how that money gets spent?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: Now, the other thing I will comment on is, for September I want to have some guidelines and policy around it, that it keeps in fitting with the Green Report as well.

MS MICHAEL: That is a really good idea. Thanks for telling me that. By December?

MS BURKE: September, for the new school year.

MS MICHAEL: September – oh right, okay.

MS BURKE: I felt that at this point you cannot really change gears on stuff that was being funded all of a sudden, but come September I want to make sure that I have guidelines developed as to what comes in, which would be suitable and what would not, and to make sure that we do not overstep what Green is trying to accomplish on one side, that we do not do it on another side.

MS MICHAEL: So, if you start getting some MHAs supporting requests going in that would be in the Green spirit too?

MS BURKE: Well, what I have always done is it had to come through a school. If it was not supported as something that was there – so I used to try to work with that as much as I could, in the meantime.

MS MICHAEL: I actually mean that quite seriously, because I think there have been some requests sometimes that have come to MHAs. I know in my district that came from the school, and the request was met and they were very legitimate requests. If I know that there is at least this little pot of money, I could say, look, go to the minister and maybe you might get the money there. Now, I will make my own personal donation but it is not what they would have gotten before. That is how I meant it, because I have always had that wonder, well, there must be some money around somewhere. They are small requests but for the school it is a significant request sometimes.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Could we have what the expenditure was for 2007-2008 under the Grants and Subsidies?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

MS BURKE: Do want what we paid out or what we rejected?

MS MICHAEL: What you paid out.

Now I will come to 2.1.02, which is the Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees. It says, "Appropriations provide for assistance to a number of educational support groups and advisory committees."

Is it going up by $500,000 this year over last year's budget and expenditure, so I guess I would like an explanation of that.

Then number two, this would be something else I would like to have and I think the Committee, not just for me, if we could have a copy of who received Grants and Subsidies last year, I guess, and what the expectations are for this year?

MS BURKE: It went up by $505,000 because the T.I. Murphy Centre, there is an additional $60,000 in there, $150,000 was for the literacy forum and then there was $750,000 for the upgrading of some of our school fabrications suites.

What was removed from that was $130,000 for the Interchange on Canadian Studies conference. That was just a one time thing last year, $130,000. The Healthy Students Healthy Schools has a decrease of $325,000 because, of the $800,000 that was put in obviously some has been used but we did not use as much.

What is covered in it is the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institutes, CMEC, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Schools Councils, Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association, some funding for them, provincial membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, Newfoundland fine arts program, T.I. Murphy Centre, Encounters with Canada, the Licensed Practical Nursing program, the Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium, Learning Disabilities Association, Canadian Education Association, the Pan-Canadian Assessment - I said the T.I. Murphy Centre - skilled trades, upgrading of the school fabrication suites and the Healthy Students Healthy Schools.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. A copy of that will be great, because it just helps us to see, too, the kinds of groups that you are able to give assistance to, and then you hear about some group sometime and say, you might get funding under Department of Education, if you saw it. You never know. Then it is up to you to make a decision.

2.1.03, again starting with Salaries, 01: the budget for this year, the estimate, is about $100,000 over the estimate for last year.

MS BURKE: There was some reallocation of funding for two administrative support positions there and it was down last year because of some vacancy and recruitment issues. It went down because of recruitment issues but it went up because we reallocated funding for two positions of administrative support.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I think that one was alright. Under Supplies, I guess you just keep a basic amount there. That is 04. That was $7400, as sort of your basic, but last year you only spent $2000 of the $7400. I guess that is a usual thing that you are going to be up and down every year with regard to supplies.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: The same with Purchased Services. Under Professional Services, what would be the professional services that are covered? That is subhead 05.

MR. HAYWARD: I can provide you the list of that. I had it up on my desk but I do not think I brought it down here. It covered things like some of the reviews from last year, the ISSP review and the teacher allocation review. There were some things carried over from that and some miscellaneous professional services that we bought. If you want a list, that is –

MS MICHAEL: If you could supply that that would be great. Thank you very much.

This is pure curiosity because it is such a small amount of money, but the head 2.1.04, Administrative Support, subhead 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $1000, it just seems so small.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. Government's accounting practices require that we have a capital account if we buy a large photocopier or something like that. So that is really an activity that keeps an appropriation there, just in case we need to buy a piece of capital equipment. That qualifies as a capital asset.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under 2.2.01., starting with subhead 01. - this is the Community Access Program, and of course this is for the establishment of the public Internet access sites.

Under 01., I note that the estimate has gone up by $90,000 over the estimate from last year's budget. It is down to $649,300, and the estimate last year was $559,700.

MR. HAYWARD: Ms Michael, when we did the budget we thought we were going to do some of this project through the Grants and Subsidies account, but as we went through the program we decided to put the youth interns - it is a component of the program, that we will talk about later if you want. We decided to put the individuals on the departmental salary instead of just grant the volunteer groups that we deal with, give them responsibility or download responsibility to keep payroll records and that kind of stuff. So we delivered it through the department.

If you look at the bottom line, amount to be voted, there is a small reduction there, but overall, our level of support is maintained. That is a 50-50 cost-shared program with the federal government.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Yes, I noticed that.

Okay, thank you.

Subhead 10., Grants and Subsidies, which was budgeted last year at $1,077,900 and was revised down to $860,000. Was that because of getting less money from the federal government than expected, or was there another reason for that?

MR. HAYWARD: There is a combination of things. We transferred some money up into Salaries, as we just discussed; A and B, the federal government. It is a 50-50 cost-sharing arrangement with the federal government. We budgeted $650,000 and the federal government came in at $549,000. So the federal government has been decreasing its commitment to this initiative.

MS MICHAEL: You may as well stay there on the mike because it is related.

Is that why in this budget it is estimated $800,000, for the same reason?

MR. HAYWARD: That is correct.

MS MICHAEL: Could we have a list again of those grants and subsidies for this?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Now we move into head 3.1.01., which is Teaching Services. It is interesting; I note that the grants to the school boards in 2007-2008 were about $4.3 million less than what had been estimated. Well, I will ask that question first. I wonder why that was.

MS BURKE: That was because some of the pay periods were lower than was estimated and it could be some recruitment issues, but on that level of budgeting that was probably fairly close with what we did. If you had a new teacher coming on versus a more senior teacher, there would have been variances in the salary. That is all that would have accounted for.

MS MICHAEL: Right, salary variance and recruitment.

Thank you.

Then, this year it is up $16 million more than in 2007-2008, over the expenditure of 2007-2008.

MS BURKE: We anticipate that with our new allocation formula that there will actually be more teachers in the Province.

MS MICHAEL: Right, that is what I figured.

For my information, Employee Benefits, in almost every department and sometimes within departments, there are different meanings for Employee Benefits. What does Employee Benefits mean here?

MR. HAYWARD: In this particular case, this relates to CPP, EI, Group Medical, Group Life, et cetera.

MS MICHAEL: Salary related benefits. I think this is the first time that actually has been the reason for it, out of all the times I have asked.

MR. HAYWARD: In the rest of government, for salaries for us people here, it is budgeted in the Department of Finance, the EI, CPP, et cetera. When you do the estimates you might see it in the Department of Finance.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

The Newfoundland School for the Deaf under spent by $151,000 in 2007-2008 but I note you are still estimating the same budget as last year. What would have been the reason for the under expenditure?

MS BURKE: That would have been some vacant positions tied to recruiting.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, some teachers who are teaching at Gonzaga to deal with the students who come in from the School for the Deaf, are they classified under Gonzaga or under the School for the Deaf?

MS BURKE: No, the School for the Deaf. That is an actual teacher from the School for the Deaf who goes up. The teacher who actually teaches the course is the same teacher who is in Gonzaga, so that is under the board, but there is the additional support of the teacher from the School for the Deaf who goes into the school with the students.

MS MICHAEL: Right. It is just one teacher, isn't it?

MS BURKE: It is two teachers and an interpreter.

MS MICHAEL: Two teachers and an interpreter. Okay.

Thank you.

All right, 3.1.02., School Board Operations; I notice under subhead 06., Purchased Services, that it is up by $200,000 in the estimates for this year.

MS BURKE: That was based on their insurance premiums, an increase in their insurance premiums.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you.

Then under subhead 09., Allowances and Assistance, you have $132,000 estimated in both last year and this year but only $43,000 was spent, and I am presuming that is the allowance and assistance for students who are required to live away from home, but only $43,000 last year.

MS BURKE: Yes, the base budget is $132,000 and $43,000 was - that was we provided some increases in that actual amount last year. That is strictly due to the lack of take up on that.

I will give an example, Grand Bruit, there are two students there now receiving a bursary who have gone on to high school, but when they finish high school there will be no further bursaries going to the students because there are no students left in the school.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: So, that could fluctuate, depending on the school and where it feeds into, but at this point in time it is really based on some of these very small schools that are basically phasing out.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Now, when we get to it later - because I cannot remember exactly which head it is - I think that the Distance Learning is going up though, that budget is going up. Are those two things related in anyway?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: They are not? Okay. So you do not have people who are not going out to school because of Distance Learning? There is not a direct correlation?

MS BURKE: No. I would think that some of the students who go out to other schools probably go to the other schools and still do courses on Distance Learning.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: These are very remote communities where we probably would not be able to set up the services; despite the fact we can reach so many places with Distance Learning.

MS MICHAEL: That's right, yes.

Grand Bruit, I would imagine you cannot, can you?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: No.

Okay, thank you.

I think the rest of that is pretty straightforward. I just want to check and make sure.

Under 3.1.02.10., Grants and Subsidies; I notice that the grants and subsidies for Student Assistants is up by $508,000 over last year's budget.

MS BURKE: That was an increase based on the new method to allocate to the districts. We added the additional 4 per cent to that, and despite the declining enrolment, we have not cut back on that particular budget.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so just 4 per cent across the board?

MS BURKE: It was 4 per cent that they needed in their funding - wasn't it, Rick? - like how they funded the student assistants.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay, thank you.

Now the transportation of school children, it was budgeted – no, it is the same. It went up over what you anticipated, because $40 million was anticipated, but it was $42,359,000 that was spent.

MS BURKE: Yes, that is basically the increased cost in transportation.

MS MICHAEL: Would that include the cost of fuel? It would not, would it?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: It would? So that would explain that. That is going to go up again this year. I think you have underestimated the budget for this year; not your fault.

Subhead 3.1.03., the Learning Resources Distribution Centre; last year in 2007-2008 it was $47,000 over spent over the estimate. What would have been the cause for that?

MS BURKE: That was the additional salary that was required to get the textbooks out to all the high schools.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Looking at 3.1.04., School Supplies; I am assuming that under Supplies the reason why it is coming down so much this year is because you had a big expenditure in last year's budget since a lot of books were being bought for the first time. Would that be correct?

MS BURKE: That is correct, and there are a couple of other things. That was almost twelve-nine, eleven point six for that.

MS MICHAEL: For the books?

MS BURKE: Yes. In addition to that, there was some money, $1.6 million for the laboratory safety initiative and that has ended because we had so many years to get that project completed. There was also funding for physical education equipment, there was $800,000. We got that out and that is completed as well.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay, great.

Thank you very much.

Under Revenue, under that same head, the Provincial Revenue, what would be the source of the revenue?

MR. HAYWARD: That would be revenue from the purchase of textbooks. It was lower than anticipated.

MS MICHAEL: Oh yes, you bought textbooks back. That is right, yes. That is interesting. I had heard that it was lower than you had thought it would be.

Okay. I will just one more. Then I think my voice can use a break and you could probably use a break from my voice.

Under 3.1.05.01., Salaries; again, the budget in 2007-2008 was $235,900 but you actually spent $335,800 and this year you are coming back down considerably. What is all of that fluctuation about there?

MS BURKE: That is basically tied to the retirement of somebody, the severance and the annual leave that we had to pay out. It was substantial.

MS MICHAEL: Mr. Chair, I will take a break.

I am not finished but I do not want to go all the way through lines.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Minister, under Teacher Allocations, I know we have heard recently that there were some schools saying they are going to have less units this year and more people saying they are going to gain a few units. I know you stated in the House that this was not finalized. Many small schools are now being forced into multi-grading and that is not a bad thing, I guess, a lot of us around this table, or I did anyway, came from multi-grading for sure. Are there any provisions for extra prep time for teachers who would be in such a school with multi-grading?

MS FUSHELL: The allocations to the school board would not have built in the prep time, but the boards, in planning their assignments to schools, would have factored in the amount of time that teachers would require to prepare for the classes in multi-grade situations. What the department does versus what the school board does, as you probably know, is very different in that we allocate a block of teaching units to school boards and then they make the deployment to the schools.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, over recent years we have heard so much about the fibre optic savings. Has anything kicked in where you can see savings within your department, and if not when do you anticipate there may be something?

MR. HAYWARD: We are in the last year of investing I think it is around $30 million to bring high speed fibre to 100 schools in sixty-six communities, I believe. We have not fully implemented that yet, so we have not seen any savings from that, Mr. Butler. I think you are talking about the big project that Innovation, Trade and Rural Development are probably talking about this evening. That funding is going through Innovation, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. BUTLER: I understand there are changes to course management software from WebCT to the new package Desire 2 Learn, and I was wondering what the rationale was with regard to that changeover.

MS BURKE: That was to provide a platform so that there would be a consistent approach in the computer systems from the K to 12 system into the post-secondary system. We also had to renew licensing for software so we decided that we would go with one program as opposed to different programs. I think we are probably the only jurisdiction in Canada so far that has brought the two levels of education together under the one system.

Rachelle, do you need to add anything there?

MS COCHRANE: It supports the movement from the increase in distance learning from K to 12 into post-secondary, so when the student is now transferring they are using the same platform so they do not have to learn a new technology twice.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, we have heard a lot about whistler blower legislation and I know it has not come forward yet, but when it does will that legislation also apply to teachers?

MS BURKE: I do not know, because I would have to see it and see how it falls out and that. So, I really do not know at this point in time how that is going to look or how it is going to read or what that would actually mean.

MR. BUTLER: Why I ask you that question, and I know this to be a fact - hopefully they will be, in some sense anyway. I know for a fact there are a couple of issues out my way with regards to things that are happening within the schools. I know it to be a fact because I have spoken with the individuals. I will give you an example. Whether it is bullying or whether it was drugs that were caught on somebody in the school, they are very fearful of speaking out about it. Some of the teachers - and I guess you understand, probably I would too if I were there – are concerned that, well, look this happened in the school, how come I did not do this or do that to prevent it from coming into the school? Then the other side of it, and I really noticed this more so with the administration levels of the school, they are very concerned that it would get out in the public and the reputation of the school and those people would be effected. It is a major problem all the way around and I was hoping that once that came in - like you said, maybe it will because you are not sure yet either - that that would alleviate the concerns of those people and probably deal with those issues more than they are right now.

MS BURKE: We will have to see how it is developed but I would think the whistler blower legislation would be to enable somebody who saw something happening in the system that was corrupt, basically, that they could report. I am just trying to think. When I worked in the prison system I would not be able to phone open line and talk about what drugs came into the prison that day or who assaulted whom or whatever. I am not going to be the one leading the legislation. I will certainly have my opportunity to review it. But, I would think it is going to be based more on being able to identify practices that are inappropriate, dealing with someone's job or duties as opposed to talking about the day to day activities.

Now, I could be completely off base because I am not developing the legislation, but based on this conversation I am thinking it might be a bit more geared towards – if somebody felt that services that were being provided, say if we were putting money in to provide student assistants and the money was going somewhere else and the student was doing without that assistant, to me, that is the kind of activity that would come under that type of legislation.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Issues like I just raised here, how do you think they should be dealt with?

MS BURKE: I think they need to be dealt with through the administration and through the board. If there is an issue of bullying, we have itinerant teachers at the board level, we have a Safe and Caring Schools policy and we have a manager here at the department. So, there are resources there. They should not be fearful of phoning the itinerant teacher, who is there specifically to deal with it, and say, listen, we have an issue here in the school and we need some support around it.

MR. BUTLER: I do not know where the fear comes from, but my colleague here knows what I am going to mention now, a meeting that was held out in Coley's Point about where they moved the Grade 4s to Amalgamated and they had to have new classrooms built on. They invited me there to show me where this was going to happen, when the funding became available and so on. This individual said to me, I suppose you have heard the rumour about the drugs in our school. I just stopped cold turkey, to be honest with you, as if to say: a rumor! Because I know for a fact, children who came home and told me, in Grade 8 it was, that their classrooms were locked down for so many hours until the investigation was done. That is where I am coming from with that.

It is sad to know that there is an administrator trying to tell me – the way I look at it, she was afraid that I was going to come and blow it wide open or something, which I would not do in that sense. The fear was there, that she did not want to let me know that this happened: did you hear the rumor? Well, I knew about it for three or four days before that.

MS BURKE: I would not even take that as a rumor. If you do a lockdown and a search of a school, and you have, I will say, 100 kids or 200 kids, well that is 200 families that know; all those kids. To me, that would be whether or not the board or the police want to issue a press release on it, but I would not consider any of that confidential.

MR. BUTLER: But that is the way she put it to me.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: That is where I was coming from with the first question anyway.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Student transportation: I know the issue of 1.6 kilometres has been on the books for many, many years. I was just wondering: are there any issues now pertaining to transportation that has surfaced recently in any areas of the Province? I know it was being looked at by the boards and so on. I was just wondering: is that an issue that has been put to bed, and everything is fine out there in regards to that?

MS BURKE: The policy has not changed, and there may be some circumstances where we have to provide it in less than the 1.6 kilometres, and then we can offer it if there is courtesy seating. That continues to happen, but, no, that policy has not changed and we are not looking at changing it either.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, are there any problems recruiting teachers – and I guess probably I am going to answer the question before I ask it – in certain areas of the Province? It is like everything, I guess, in the more rural areas. Also, is there any problem filling positions such as speech and language pathologists in the department?

MS BURKE: Marion, you can speak to this as well, because Marion would know this issue quite well.

The recruitment issues are sometimes more with specialist positions as opposed to classroom positions. For example, in Coastal Labrador it was very difficult to recruit guidance counsellors. What the board did was, they hired two guidance counsellors who work as a team, who service all the schools as opposed to being assigned to one particular school. So there has been some creativity around how do we – because we have to look at it. It is not about how many teachers live in the community. It is all about what services are available to the student in an appropriate manner. The specialist positions are the ones that there has been some difficulty filling.

Marion, you can speak to this. I do not know if we have actually had any vacancies that we could not fill. Speech pathologists was an issue for Lower Cove, last year. Someone is in that position this year. There are some that provide more challenges than others but I am finding it more in the specialized positions. Marion?

MS FUSHELL: The minister is correct in that it is a specialist. With speech language pathologists, there are no vacant positions this year, which is a new era. There have been for many years vacancies in speech language pathologists. Some of our more remote communities do experience challenges from time to time. It is not as systemic as we sometimes think. The minister has the authority to approve retired teachers in situations where boards have been unable to recruit, and this school year there are 74 retired teachers working in the system. If you look at that as an indicator of the challenge, that is 74 teachers in a system of 5,600. While the recruitment is a challenge from time to time, it is not at an alarming rate. There is not a shortage of teachers per se but a shortage of some speciality areas.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, one of the things which the NLTA asked for in the pre-budget consultation process was a professional development plan for the Province. I know that through the department, Memorial, school districts and so on, the model for professional development was the envy of the country apparently five years ago. I was just wondering: does the department still consider this to be workable model, and if it is not already implemented when do you think something like that would be considered to be implemented?

MS BURKE: I think right now, as Minister of Education, I would like to see and continue emphasis on professional development in ways that enable the teachers to provide the curriculum and be well versed in the curriculum that we provide.

My focus and my concern right now is on student achievement. It is based on the curriculum and it is based on making sure that teachers are familiar with that curriculum, in particular as we switch the new math program and the new textbooks. There may be a cadillac model out there of development that we may need to look at, but my primary concern right now is to ensure that the teachers have access to professional development that addresses the curriculum and therefore student achievement.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, with regard to healthy and safe schools, I know there is funding gone into that. We used to hear so much about junk food in the schools and so on. That coupled with the funding to purchase physical education equipment under the wellness agenda, I was just wondering if you could elaborate on how that is working out throughout the Province.

MS BURKE: What we have done is we have certainly provided funding to do upgrades to the cafeterias because they need different equipment where they are not going to be using deep fryers as much. The caterers have certainly been working with the school boards to develop menus that meet the food guidelines. We have provided physical education equipment that supports individual workout plans as opposed to making the hockey team or the basketball team. Anyone can use a rower, a treadmill or the dance mats for the younger kids. We have been doing a lot of that.

One thing we have not been good on is doing an evaluation. That is something that, again, goes right back to, whatever we do we have to be accountable for. Sometimes, and I think historically, it has probably been more difficult to do evaluations for more social programs as opposed to physical, but that does not let us off the hook. One thing we will be doing is making sure we are more aggressive with evaluations. This is one particular area that I am really interested in seeing. If we have it out there and we have staff assigned to it and we are putting money into equipment, show me the results.

MR. BUTLER: I know last year, Minister, there were, I think - I could be wrong - twenty-two requests for libraries throughout the Province. I was just wondering: what is the status of that now and is there new money allocated this year to help with that situation?

MR. HAYWARD: There is no new funding allocated to establish new libraries.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under the International Student Education program, I was just wondering if you could explain to me how this program works. I know there is a heading there, I saw some -

MS BURKE: This program - and Rick, correct me at any point. This is a program where the school boards have developed separate associations with a separate board of directors. However, the board of directors are primarily made up of school board officials. They recruit students from other countries, who come into Canada, who pay a fee to go to school. So that should cover their cost of education. Say if it costs $15,000 to attend a school in Newfoundland and Labrador, well, the family would then pay the money to this association - there is an ISEP here on the east coast - and for that funding they would have access to the school and the programs in the school. Probably ESL, that is not always required, but it could be. That school board then, through people they hire, would actually go out and find homes and supervise the homes. It would basically take custody of these children, although it was not a formal custody agreement, for that year.

MR. BUTLER: I know of families in my own area who have taken part in the program and had the opportunity to meet students from Mexico, Korea, or wherever they all came from, and it seems to be working well. I was just wondering, are there any complaints? Have you heard any complaints back? It would probably be through the school board and not through you anyway, wouldn't it, if you heard complaints back from the parents on either side, or their adoptive parents, I call them, here on this side of the ocean?

MS BURKE: I have not heard complaints from parents who are involved in the program. I have obviously, as we all know, heard the complaints from an agent. I also have felt that there is certainly room for improvement in that program and the structures that are set up.

MR. BUTLER: So, in other words, if someone had a complaint, whether it is with regards to the program itself or, say for instance if a student recruiter wanted to place students, that would be all through the board. There would not be anything through the department itself?

MS BURKE: No. It would be through the board, through the organizations that they have set up.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. How are we doing for time?

CHAIR: (Inaudible) further questioning in that line?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay. Well, I will give you another five minutes.

MR. BUTLER: Did you want to go now?

MS MICHAEL: Sure, if you want me to.

CHAIR: We will give you another five minutes or so, and then we will switch over.

MR. BUTLER: All right, sir. My God, you might finish me off.

The School for the Deaf, minister. Have there been any recent layoffs at the school?

MS BURKE: Marian? I want to add to that after.

Go ahead, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: At the School for the Deaf for September 2008, there will be two fewer teachers and this will be based on continued decreased enrolment as well as increased integration into other schools in the communities. It is an option that more and more parents are choosing so that the children can stay home in their communities and stay home with their families. There have been no decisions made yet about the level of staffing for the residence staff but there will be fewer students staying in residence next year. So there is a real possibility that there will be fewer residence counsellors required as well, but these discussions are still ongoing.

MR. BUTLER: So the residence will remain open next year?

MS BURKE: There will be five, as far as I know, in the residence. Just for a matter of statistics, it costs us $120,456 to educate one student at the School for the Deaf per year, over $120,000 for each student.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, issues come up about this - I am after forgetting your name now.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell.

MR. BUTLER: Marian, when you mentioned about parents want their children to come to the schools in their community, and I know what it is like because back - I think we were probably, I was an executive assistant then with somebody else, but there was a constituent of ours who had a young lady who attended the School for the Deaf and they wanted her to come to the community. Naturally so, who would not want their child home? Anyway, they tried to - at that time now, I am not saying things have not changed now. This was at Ascension Collegiate but the supports were not there at that time.

Minister, from time to time we ask you questions, and I know where you are coming from with the full situation, but we get correspondence from students and from parents. Some of the parents are saying, and I just want clarification if you could. Some of the parents are saying: Yes, we understand. We would love to have them home. A lot of them said we want them to come home and they take them home, but then we get letters and correspondence from the students saying it was the right thing probably for mom to take me home but I do not think I got what I would have received if I stayed at the school with my own peers. I just cannot pick up everything out in the regular schools, even though - I mean that is a wonderful thing and I am not against that, but I was just wondering if you could elaborate on that because the ones who are writing us seem to be saying: Look, I am not getting the supports. The technology is there but apparently lots of times they lose out on a lot of it, what they would obtain at the School for the Deaf. I was wondering if someone could just touch on that.

MS BURKE: I want to speak to that. It was just last night I spoke with a mother who has a student at the School for the Deaf. She commented, with tears in her eyes, that had things been the way they were ten years ago as to what they are today, that she would never have let him go. She had let him go when he was five. He had no language skills. She had to relinquish basically being a parent. If he had to go to a dentist or had to have a sick day, or see a doctor, or was not feeling well, he had to stay with paid staff, and that is how he was raised. It is only this year he gets to go home every single weekend.

At the same time, for the first time in the history of the Province - and there is a big difference between people who can hear with cochlear implants versus people who absolutely need to sign. The number of students who need to sign in this Province is getting lower and lower, but until we have the appropriate services in the schools for signing, we need the School for the Deaf. Otherwise, you can give all the FM systems you want but it is not going to happen in the communities.

For the first time we actually have a student whose guardians have refused to say that he has to leave the home. As a result of that, one of the teachers from the School for the Deaf is now working with - is she still with the School for the Deaf or Western School Board? - and doing sign language development in one of the schools in Stephenville. That is basically because the parents said no; the guardians said no, they will not send him in. They would not let somebody else take of him. They felt he should be at home with them every night. That is where it needs to go.

The mother also commented to me last night, she said that it is too late now, that basically he has been in the school for ten years and he should finish in the school. The other comment she made to me, whether fair or unfair, was she felt that the staff created an awful lot of anxiety for the kids; always talked about layoffs, always talked about closures. She said that she has given me letters in the past that she was asked by staff to give to me because her son would not be able to get educated anymore, would not be able to live in the residence. Whether or not they create tension, I do not know, but I can guarantee you one thing, those kids down there have enough stress having to have a disability, have to leave their homes to be educated. I certainly would hope that the staff do not encourage more anxiety and more stress for them about the closing of the school.

That was her comment to me last night about the stress that is created a lot of times. Maybe that might be some of what is behind some of the letter writing campaigns that happen, I do not know. I certainly cannot verify that and I would not want to make that assumption. I do know that we have to, as government, find ways and means to make sure that the needs of every single student is there, and we also have to respect the fact that the families are the best option for children. That is who provides the guidance, that is who provides and cares for the child and that is really, in the long run, who needs to be able to meet their needs in the community as opposed to paying staff to do it.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to possible skill shortages and I know we hear a lot about that. I have heard you mention in the House about the construction trades, there are going to be other avenues open to people for training. I know probably nobody has control over this but to me it seems to be a major concern that - and yes, we have to train people. No one is saying not to train them, to keep them home, but we are losing them as fast as they do get trained. I know that is a trend.

It is unbelievable in my area, and I mean the Port de Grave area, as well as Carbonear, is a very lucrative area. We are close to the Avalon. I cannot believe the numbers of people who are giving up the jobs they had, skilled-trades people. As a matter of fact, I visited a lady yesterday and I said: Where is your husband? As a matter of fact, she is related to my wife. She said he is in Alberta. I said what? I mean he was home here working all his life as a carpenter, making half decent money in around the city, and just packs it up and goes away. She said: Do you know something? We are going to see more of each other now than we did when he lived here because I guess he was trying to get every dollar he could and worked long hours and weekends. Now he is up there on this turnaround bit, whatever they got, if that lasts. A lot of our young people are doing the same thing.

Is there any plan in place? I do not know how we do it? I agree with you, there are major projects hopefully coming on stream but the numbers that are gone, even if they did not leave, we have to create some work to just get back the people who were there before this trend started, and it is a trend. People who have retired are leaving just to be a part of it, because it is almost like you are going to Disney World or something. There is something there just drawing them. It is sad.

MS BURKE: What I think, as much as we have people leaving - and there are people going to leave regardless of what projects we have on the go here in the Province, but one thing that we have to be mindful of is that when we start moving into these projects, if we do not have our people ready and educated to take on the responsibilities we will have to bring in workers, which is what we do not want to happen.

In saying that, we have doubled the capacity in skilled trades at the College of the North Atlantic, and a lot of people go away. One thing that we have done, which has been very important for the Province, is we have an agreement with the Government of Alberta. Prior to this agreement, if somebody went to Alberta they had to register as an apprentice in Alberta. They would have to do their training and go through the various stages of an apprenticeship and become a journeyperson in Alberta. We have an agreement now where Newfoundlanders and Labradorians can register here as apprentices, log their hours, bring them back here, get credit, do their block training back here. So we have kept that attachment to the Province, which we had not had before. I think that despite the fact they are going out and they are working in Alberta and we are losing workers here, as we move into the mega projects and as we begin to mirror some of the work and have a similar type of work available and similar salary available, then it is going to become the choice of whether you want to get on the plane and go to Alberta or you are going to commute within your own Province, because not everyone is necessarily going to live around these projects either.

I think that as we know what skill shortages we are facing and what skills we are going to need for these projects, I think that as long as we continue to educate in that area and as long as people can be registered here, come back here and do their training, they are maintaining their families here, I still think we have a strong base that we can build on down the road. I think the difference would be is if they did not have the opportunity to commute, they had to pack up, sell their homes, go to Alberta, register as an apprentice up there and follow through with the process of continuing on to journeyperson. I think the dynamic - as much as no one can say for certain what is going to happen. I think the dynamic, as it is set up now, is providing an attachment to this Province.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, unless you have another follow up to that one there.

MR. BUTLER: I want to speak on that, just briefly.

Minister, one of the issues that you mentioned, and you covered a lot of good points at that point in time, but the key one I think is the salary. We can get the projects but we have to get the wages up close to it. It is going to be difficult. You have people up there being paid $45 and $50 an hour. It is amazing! I think that is what they are going for. We can have the jobs here - I know some of them are coming back, sure, and some of them want to come back.

Okay, Ms Michael.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Head 3.1.06., School Facilities; I am going to use my common sense on a lot of the lines and pick up on ones that are the major differences. Subhead 05., Professional Services, in the budget for 2008 the Professional Services are $682,000 less than in 2007-2008. What is the reason for the drop?

MR. HAYWARD: Ms Michael, our Professional Services basically covers the hiring of consultants. When we need a roof design or a window project design, we use consultants. At the current time this is our best estimate of the consultants that we will need this year on maintenance projects.

MS MICHAEL: On maintenance?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. The activities are broken up between alteration and improvement to existing facilities, which is basically current account maintenance. The next one, 3.1.07, is new school construction. On our maintenance projects that is what we estimate now. That might change as we go through the year and Treasury Board lets us reallocate the money, so that is the best estimate.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Then, with regard to 06, the Purchased Services, that is going up quite a bit, $6.4 million more in this budget. I am presuming that must have to do with the renovations that are going to take place, is it?

MS BURKE: That is the maintenance and the work that we buy, the tenders that we –

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under head 3.1.07, the New Construction: all I am wondering here, because obviously everything is logical based on what this head is, but could we have a list? I can look up the Eastern School Board, for example. That one I probably know. Could we have a list of what the plans are for this year, for the whole Province, in terms of the renovations and extensions?

MS BURKE: We do and sometimes it is fluid, because sometimes decisions are made throughout the year, so we probably would not have a full list.

MS MICHAEL: What you have at this moment.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: That would be great. Thank you.

Is there any new – yes, there is $35.9 million new money for new construction this year, is there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Anyway, all of that, what is new and what is renovation. Thank you.

Head 3.2.01, the Curriculum Development, subhead 01, there is quite a difference in the salaries estimated for this year and the salaries that were estimated for last year. It is even less than what was spent last year as well. Can we have an explanation of that?

MS BURKE: There was some vacancy, some delay in the recruitment, and also there was a transfer of one position from one activity within the department to another. It should show up, then, that the position was transferred. It should show up somewhere else as an increase.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is why it is gone down. Of one position, is it?

MS BURKE: Marion, do you want to explain that?

MS FUSHELL: It would be one position, and in that one million it would also have included some one-time funding for an intermediate review that we had done.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon? I am sorry; I have a difficulty hearing.

MS FUSHELL: Part of the decrease would be a salaried position that was transferred from this division to another, but there was also included in the budget for last year one time funding to have a review of intermediate programs.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, because it is about $120,000 difference between what was spent last year and this year. Thank you.

Under Transportation and Communications, 03, again it is down in this year's estimate by about $130,000 from last year. What would have been the difference between last year and this year? That is subhead 03.

MS BURKE: Marian, you can take that one as well.

MS FUSHELL: The decrease is also related to the one-time funding for the intermediate review, and there were also recruitment challenges with hiring a consultant to do the database that Minister Burke referenced earlier for the assessments and the wait-list. That has now been filled, but there was a ten-month delay in the recruitment process.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Coming down to subhead 05, Professional Services, here we have a major increase of $543,000. What is that for?

MS BURKE: Marian, do you want to speak to that one too? I think it is regarding the Social Studies program.

MS FUSHELL: Government announced several years ago the development of a Newfoundland and Labrador Social Studies course for high school students. The resources are still under development, the manuscript has been prepared but it now has to go to publication. So there will be an RFP issued to get the publication work done, and that would account for that difference there.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Purchased Services, subhead 06, again a drop of about $100,000 this year: so is the amount estimated for this year more what the normal is and you had something extra last year? Because last year it was estimated at $204,000, this year at $106,000.

MS BURKE: There were two things included in that last year that were one-time, so we took away some of the funding that would have been associated with the database, and, as well, for the review of the intermediate program.

MS MICHAEL: So the same, relating back to other places. Thank you.

Under subhead 10 there was $100,000 budgeted under Grants and Subsidies for last year, but nothing got spent. What was the anticipation of that $100,000 and why is it now gone?

MS BURKE: Marian.

MS FUSHELL: Again that is related to the data base, and while we started the project, some of the preliminary work, the cost associated with it was taken up by OCIO and so therefore we were able to remove it.

MS MICHAEL: Great.

Under head 3.2.02, Language Programs, once again beginning with 01, Salaries, here we are looking at the Language Programs. I notice that the estimate for last year was $495,400 but only $335,000 was spent, but then this year the estimate is up to $567,600. So, just a bit of explanation of all of that.

MS BURKE: Marian, you can speak to that program.

MS FUSHELL: This is a federal-provincial agreement, so therefore there is variance from one year to the next because it is based on, in part, proposals that are submitted by school boards, both French first language and French second language. There would be variation as we go through the calendar year, the school year as well as the fiscal year.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, and I see the federal change down there.

Under 03, Transportation and Communication, last year it was overspent by $70,000. Was something not anticipated that came up?

MS BURKE: Marian you can speak to that one again.

MS FUSHELL: Again, this would relate to French first language, French second language programs. I do not have an exact answer as to why that is decreased but I can certainly follow up with you.

MS MICHAEL: Please, just to have an idea. Since you do not have it, it would be good to know for your own sake too

Then coming down to 09, Allowances and Assistance: in this case I am not sure what the allowance and assistance is for. That is my first question: what are the allowances and assistance for in this head? Then 02 was under spent by a fair bit, by $300,000 actually, I think, is it? No, $245,000 last year but back up this year. Number one, what does that cover and why was it under spent by $245,000 last year?

MS BURKE: Marian, you can speak to that too.

MS FUSHELL: This would have been part of the fluctuation for the proposals and projects submitted by school boards for French first language and French second language in that there would have been fewer submitted and/or approved than anticipated. There is no reason to think that would be sustained. It is likely to increase again this year.

MS MICHAEL: It is allowances and assistance for the schools to offer the programs, is it?

MS FUSHELL: That is right, offer programs and provide funding for students to have an exchange with students in Quebec, for example, or to go to St. Pierre for an exchange program. All of these would be covered under that line.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Subhead 10, the Grants and Subsidies, it was over budget last year by about $300,000 and you are estimating it at about $100,000 more this year than it was last year. Again here, I guess, I would like a list of the grants and subsidies, who gets the grants and subsidies here. You could give me an idea but I would also like a list.

MS FUSHELL: These would include things like the Intensive Core French program, the evaluation of the French Immersion and the implementation of French Immersion. There is a lengthy list, so that can be provided to you.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I notice the federal contribution is going up this year. Is that confirmed or are you hoping that is what it is going to be? Under revenue.

MS FUSHELL: Negotiations for a new agreement are ongoing as we speak.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Subhead 3.3.01.01, Salaries: it is not normal to see salaries go down. It is not gone done a lot, it is gone down by about $63,000. What would that be?

MS BURKE: The $63,100 is a position that would have been federally funded through the Drug Prevention and Awareness Program. That federal funding, if you come down, is not there. So that is no longer there.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under subhead 03, Transportation and Communications, that is down a fair bit also, down by $45,000 from last year.

MS BURKE: Again, that would have been a result, probably, of not spending as much as we thought we would, but then there would be an appropriation because the physician who is no longer would have been a provincial physician.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

MS BURKE: That would have entailed provincial travel.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, it relates to the physician.

Professional Services, subhead 05, nothing was budgeted last year, but this year you have $120,000 in there. What do you anticipate that to be?

MS BURKE: That is money to the department under the Poverty Reduction Strategy, and it is a project we are going to look at, kind of reconnecting disengaging at risk youth. So, we will be doing some study in that area.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Again, this is more of a curiosity. Under the Revenue–Federal, I noticed last year there was some money from the federal government. Was that just a one-time agreement or – $90,000 last year.

MS BURKE: That was for the Drug Prevention and Awareness Program. That funding has now ended.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, okay.

MS BURKE: That was specifically for that.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, it relates to the same thing. Thank you.

Head 3.3.02 speaks for itself. I think the School for the Deaf, that has been covered, the information that came out there. Let me get my notes straight here now.

Head 3.4.01, Student Evaluation and Scholarships: again, I am not going to go through every line here, but subhead 09, what would the Allowances and Assistance be for here in this category?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: This line would be for scholarships for high school students. This would be the Junior Jubilee, the Electoral District Scholarships, the Centenary Scholarships, and also the Pearson College International Baccalaureate that we award each year.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Grants and Subsidies, it is not a lot, but what would these grants and subsidies be? That is subhead 10.

MS BURKE: You can speak to that too, Marion.

MS FUSHELL: This would be a travel program that allows students from within the Province to visit post-secondary campuses throughout their graduating year, to get exposure to the university, Grenfell College and the college system.

MS MICHAEL: Are they awarded to schools or to individuals?

MS FUSHELL: To schools, upon application.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. What would the provincial revenue be? The revenue for last year was estimated at $8,400 and estimated again at $8,400, although last year it was $11,000. Where would that revenue be coming from?

MS FUSHELL: That would come from re-read of public examinations.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon? I am sorry, I did not hear.

MS FUSHELL: The public exams. Sometimes students would ask for a re-read of those and there is a cost associated with those.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under 3.4.02, 03, Transportation and Communications, the estimate has gone up slightly by $30,000. Would that be related to transportation itself, greater transportation costs or some other reason?

MS BURKE: We are anticipating some additional costs in this, primarily because we will probably have staff travel a bit more where we are going to be doing the public exams outside St. John's.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

MS BURKE: There will be some increased cost reflected here in that.

MS MICHAEL: That would be related there, okay.

Under Professional Services, which is subhead 05, it is up by $148,000.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to – Marion, correct me if I am wrong on this one – that we would provide the pay for the teachers who do the correction on the CRTs and the public exams and the increase in their salaries?

MS FUSHELL: That is correct. That would be to reflect an increase in numbers of teachers and salaries for the teachers on the marking boards.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under Professional Development, which is head 3.4.03, what is the difference between the Allowance and Assistance and the Grants and Subsidies? Those are the two subheads. What is the difference between the two subheads?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that too, Marian.

MS FUSHELL: The allowances and assistance would be the funding provided for substitute teacher leave under the discretionary leave. Within the teacher's collective agreement there is a non-discretionary leave which would cover off sick leave primarily and then there is discretionary leave which covers off, among other things, professional development. So that would be the pay for the substitute teachers.

MS MICHAEL: While the teachers are getting their training?

MS FUSHELL: That is right.

Under the grants and subsidies, that would be money provided to support that professional development, and through the teacher allocation model there was a budget line for that as well as the ISSP allocations.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I notice that subhead 10, Grants and Subsidies, is going up significantly by approximately three million and consequently of course the allowances and assistance is going up. There must be a correlation there. Are you deliberating putting this up or is it that the expenses for the teachers to do professional development are increasing? Are you doing it as an incentive or is it that the expenses are increasing?

MS FUSHELL: There would be an increased level of activity for professional development. Under the teacher allocation model the commissioner has identified for us the need for professional development for principals. There will be enhanced training and professional development for principals. While it is more expensive for travel and other associated costs to bring teachers together, there will also be an enhanced professional development plan.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

MS BURKE: There is $2.4 million for ISSP training.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon?

MS BURKE: There is also in that $2.4 million (inaudible) professional development as result of the ISSP report.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Ms Michael: if you want to switch over for a while.

MS MICHAEL: Sure, that would be great.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Minister, it is like Reach for the Top now, a few snappers.

College of the North Atlantic, the wait-list there, could you elaborate on the wait-list? I do not know of anything in particular, but what I am getting at, I guess: I think it was in the paper this weekend or maybe it was today about the medical technologist program. There was a two-year wait-list due to limited capacity. I was just wondering: is there anything being done that probably can help this particular program, when we hear the word medical for sure, right?

MS BURKE: This is one area where we have been looking at how we can potentially expand the program. Obviously, it is a program that historically has been offered in St. John's and St. John's only. What limits the program is the fact that in order to be able to offer it you need to be able to offer clinical placements as well. You only have so many machines and staff that can do that type of development for the students.

We are looking at the possibility of expanding the program onto the West Coast. Again, that meets its challenges too, because we know the Health Sciences provides that tertiary care. There is certain equipment that people would need to be trained on that may not be available throughout the Province. That is one of the challenges with expanding that particular program, is being able to offer the clinical placements. We acknowledge that there are only so many placements you are going to get in St. John's, because there are only so many facilities and so many staff to supervise them.

We see it as an issue, and we would like to be able to develop some plans to have it on the West Coast.

MR. BUTLER: How are things going in Qatar?

MS BURKE: Good, I guess; lots of money rolling in over there.

I met with some of their Joint Oversight Board members when they were here in October-November. I think it might even have been the same day of the swearing in probably. It is being managed by that joint board.

In the next couple of years the contract will be up for renewal. We would like to renew the contract, so we will enter into negotiations to continue it there, knowing it is a highly competitive process. Certainly, they will receive their direction as to whether or not they want to continue on with the College of the North Atlantic or branch out on their own or invite others in. Right now we are satisfied with the arrangement and we would like to continue it, if we get that opportunity through negotiations.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Are there any considerations to reorganize the College of the North Atlantic, because you hear some people say that it should become known as a university type setting?

MS BURKE: One thing that we did say in our Blue Book, one of our commitments is looking at applied degrees. It is not something that we have budgeted for this year, but something that we feel that as we move this Province ahead with some of our mega-projects that are on the horizon and the level of skill that is needed, and the fact that other community colleges have moved in that direction, as we grow the college and try to meet the labour market demands, that that is certainly going to be something very important for us to do.

It is a commitment. I am assuming I will be Minister of Education throughout this mandate, although there is no guarantee of that, and that is something that I think is going to be a really positive move for the college system. I think, as we do that, the other piece we have to look at is, if we are going to be having applied degrees at the College, how do they fit into the university? If you go to MUN, do you have to start as if you were a brand-new student and have to start at square one or what kind of recognition can we get from one program to the other?

MR. BUTLER: We mentioned earlier about the program to get students coming here to our local high schools and so on. Is there any program to get the foreign students to come to our colleges as well? Is there such a program?

MS BURKE: There is international recruitment within the university and within the college system, although when we look at their funding here it is not detailed. They each have international recruitment offices where they participate in different fairs and do recruitment to try to bring students from other countries here. That is also part of the immigration strategy. The post-secondary system certainly builds on our immigration strategy as well.

MR. BUTLER: Grenfell College: what new investments does government plan to make to enhance the college, what is the future of the college and do we see it becoming an independent degree-granting institution?

MS BURKE: What we are doing, I guess, from an infrastructure point of view, is the new academic building. We are also going to be putting new residences on the West Coast. How we see Grenfell growing is that we see it as an institution that will fall under the one Board of Regents as we have now, but it will become independent in the sense that it will have its own academic council, its own senate, its own budget and its own president. Therefore it will have the freedom to be able to determine their budget and how they would like to allocate their funding and be able to make academic decisions as well without having to have that vetted through St. John's for approval. It will give them more autonomy to deal with decisions regarding their finances and their academics.

MR. BUTLER: Has there been any review or an assessment done with regards to establishing a university in central Newfoundland?

MS BURKE: No. We have had discussions with a committee in Grand Falls and I have asked, as they develop plans, that it has to meet with the strategic plan of the university. We cannot go out and compete with ourselves, and I did not want to get into a situation where there is a one-off program. The university has a focus, has a strategic plan and knows where it is going. On a one-off, if you give us extra funding, we will do this, but they never take ownership of it, never grow it and never make it part of the bigger picture.

One thing: if we expand into central Newfoundland, I want to make sure that it is part of that larger strategic picture. Do I think there is a role outside St. John's for Grenfell, for post-secondary? Yes, I do, but it has to be part of the bigger picture, not ad hoc plans that we are going to do. They need to embrace this and make it grow.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I am wondering what has been done to address the issues, and probably they have all been addressed. We know the Auditor General's report - and I heard you make a comment about that before in the House. With regard to private training institutions and the programs and how they were being monitored by government, I am just wondering how that has resolved itself. Is it an ongoing thing to, I guess, live up to what the Auditor General thought should have been done?

MS BURKE: The Auditor General felt that we should follow the national de-designation framework for private institutions which means that if there is a certain percentage of student loans that are defaulted that we should no longer provide student loans to that particular institution. Therefore, it would be de-designated from the student loan framework. The problem with that, if we take it as a blunt tool that has been put out there by the federal government and we apply it - I do not have my stats here with me but it is interesting. You could look at one particular college and see that 50 per cent of the students on student loans do not pay back their student loans. Then you can further look and see it is probably six students who have a student loan. So, it is only based on the number of students that have student loans.

In our College of the North Atlantic or private institutions we have a very high percentage of people who go through under funding from HRSDC or Services Canada where they get their EI extended. When we look at the blunt numbers - somebody said, well, 70 per cent of the students did not pay back their student loan and you look at only five or six received a student loan, there is probably a particular program that has an issue. Or if we looked at those individuals, you know there is probably some valid explanation as opposed to going in and shutting down the school, or no longer having them eligible for Canada Student Loans. As a blunt instrument itself I did not think it was a satisfactory tool that we would use at our private institutions.

MR. BUTLER: Is there any funding in the budget? I guess, if you are not going to proceed with this, there would not be any funding in there. It has been an issue, that service, with regard to the non-teaching personnel to carry out I guess supervision that cannot be done by the teachers themselves. Has that even been considered?

MS BURKE: We have a working group on that working with the NLTA, and there are a number of issues. It is not as straightforward as we think, that teachers have to supervise over the lunch period, because when you look at the schools it all becomes very different. Some schools in central Newfoundland, most actually, bus the kids home for lunch and there is an hour and half lunch break, so there is no supervision. Other schools have an hour lunch break and other schools have scaled it back to forty minutes so that they can get out earlier in the afternoons. It is not a consistent approach. If all lunch breaks were an hour or an hour and fifteen everyone would get a break, but schools have actually chosen to scale back to forty minutes knowing that time is limited and knowing that breaks are going to be based around it.

We will continue to look at it, because it is an issue. I certainly do not like the idea that people may work all day without that break. I think that is important, but we also have to remember that there is no consistency. Some teachers who work straight through are probably teachers who have the forty minute lunch break, when others get an hour-and-a-half off everyday. So it is not as straightforward as bringing in one policy that is going to fit all.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. When I brought that question up I was also referencing not only the lunchtime break for teachers to get a break, but even throughout the day probably when all the teachers are in the classrooms and all the students are in the classrooms, some of the activities that are happening around some of our schools. Someone coming in and pushing drugs on our parking lots and so on, that type of thing as well. I know some of the schools said they are going to put in the closed circuit cameras and things like that, but I was just wondering - I was looking at a bigger picture overall.

MS BURKE: You mean supervising the grounds while the classes are in?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. The grounds or even within the schools, I guess, because it is a job for the teachers to pick it up when they are going from one class to the other. I know probably one person cannot pick it up in the schools anyway, but that was more or less - like a custodian or someone beyond the teacher. Then in between that, the janitorial people who may be in the vicinity as well.

MS BURKE: Yes. We are not looking at providing enhanced security, like during school hours per se like that, but what we have done is we have increased the budget (inaudible) so that every school will have a secretary while the school is open, during the work hours, which has not always been the case.

I do not want to put that out there now, the secretaries are going to be out doing security functions, but they will be a live body at that main entrance at the general office while school is on. So if there are strangers coming into the school, or I would think activity outside the school - I do not want to overestimate what they are going to be doing because they are going to be the school secretaries, but it will have that added person there as well, to help identify issues if they are identifiable.

MR. BUTLER: The $11.3 million for the new math curriculum, the Excellence in Mathematics. I was just wondering if you could touch on that, and how that is progressing.

MS BURKE: There have been a number of initiatives that we have started so far – Marian, you can add to this when I am finished, as well. We reviewed the curriculum for this year, made some changes, and we have also provided some additional supports for teachers, the twenty-five numeracy specialists, to assist with the teachers who are delivering the program. We also committed to an independent review of our program, and Dr. Bob Crocker did that review. We released that report - I have no idea when, a time frame is just eluding me here now. This winter I guess, was it?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS BURKE: Yes. It was suggested that in our review of the program, some of the criticisms that had been brought forward, and basically it is two. There was not enough emphasis on the basic skills in the early grades and that there were too many curriculum outcomes to be covered in any given year.

When Dr. Crocker did the research he confirmed a number of things. One is basically that, that we need to put more attention to the basic skills. We need to scale back some of the curriculum outcomes. He also reconfirmed for us that the philosophy on which we are working in the math program, the problem solving process of doing mathematics is certainly one that is embraced in North America and worldwide. In doing that, there is also - as a Province, we have worked with the Atlantic Provinces. We have a common curriculum across the Atlantic Provinces.

What Dr. Crocker did in his review was identified that the western and northern protocol, which would be the western provinces and the territories, have already initiated a very similar review, if not the same thing that we are doing. They have theirs completed. They have very similar findings. They have upgraded or chosen new books that they felt would be more appropriate textbooks. There has been a big problem with the textbooks as well. So, Dr. Crocker more or less said in his report that we do not need to reinvent the wheel, that they have done this piece of work, they have the research, these are the decisions.

The other thing that gave me some level of confidence in being able to adopt what they have been doing on the west coast of the country is the fact that in almost all the results that we look at, whether it is PISA or the PCAP results, that Alberta, as a province, usually does the best in Canada, always does the best in Canada. When they rank the provinces, sometimes countries, they are the top in the world as well. Certainly, there was some knowledge and some skill there that gave me some level of confidence as well. They saw the same issues we did. They did the review. Their results were very similar to what Dr. Crocker had recommended. He looked at how they were moving ahead and certainly recommended that we follow suit. Since then, I understand that the other Atlantic Provinces, and probably with the exception of Prince Edward Island, will also be following suit.

MS FUSHELL: New Brunswick and P.E.I. are following suit. Nova Scotia is doing its own review and will likely find itself in the same, if not similar position to the other three provinces.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I have heard people I guess in the teaching profession and some people who have been involved - and not my colleague here, I want to clarify that - at the board levels in different boards throughout the Province. Has the department ever considered Kindergarten, full day Kindergarten?

MS BURKE: Yes and no. We have considered it and we are not going there. It is not something that we are not inclined to do but right now one of the major basic fundamental issues we have, if we did that, would be classroom space. I do not think full day Kindergarten is something that you offer to some students and not all students. I think it has to be universal if it comes in. I think down the road it is probably something you will see but with the cap on classroom sizes now that we have expanded up to Grade 9, we just really physically do not have the classrooms because we would have to double the number of classroom spaces we need, because if it a half day now, make that a double. So it is not practical from that perspective.

The other thing that I think we need to do as part of that broader discussion is not just go out and say we want full day Kindergarten but to really look at what we are doing in early learning and making sure that the children are ready for Kindergarten. That is as an important step as having the full day Kindergarten, I think. I really want to get more emphasis on that whole early learning component. Are we ready to move ahead with full day Kindergarten? I am not satisfied that we move ahead unless it is universal.

CHAIR: Excuse me ladies and gentlemen, I need some direction here. Would people be in favour of a five minute break? The minister has been going flat out for two hours. Are we going to take a break for -

MS BURKE: Do not take a break on my account, but if someone else wants one.

CHAIR: A lot of people have been sitting; do you want to get up to stretch your legs for five minutes? Would that be in order?

Okay, we will take a five minute break.

CHAIR (Collins): Okay, can we resume?

We will turn the floor back to Mr. Butler to finish up his questions.

Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I only have two other questions at the present time, unless there are some one-liners. Ms Michael wants a break.

Recently – I just forget the gentleman's name, and I am terrible on names - there was some gentleman came to the Province, and I think he was speaking to some of the educators here, and he made a comment with regard to K-6, I think it was, with regard to homework and the stress it was putting on young people.

I was just wondering if you could just touch on that. Do you see it as being a problem, or have you heard anything through the boards or the educators that it is a problem?

MS BURKE: No, it is not, and I did not mean it to sound like that. In meetings I have had with the school boards or the School Boards Association that has not been brought forward as an issue, with the exception of with relation to math. That is what I have been hearing here locally. That is something that we want to address as we bring in the new curriculum and the new books in math, some guidelines around homework and the parents role in homework as well.

If you read Dr. Crocker's report, it is not necessarily what you would feel he would be saying about parental involvement and homework in math. We need to make sure that if that is an issue we address it. Generally, the homework issue is not something that, when I meet with the Federation of School Councils or the school boards or the NLTA, has come up as an issue there.

MR. BUTLER: Head 4.1.02, the Atlantic Veterinary College: I noticed there last year that the budget was $973,900 and revised to $723,000. I was just wondering: what created that difference? I was wondering: how many seats do we have now in PEI? I believe in the budget it said that the seats were increasing this year, for that particular –

MS BURKE: We have three seats. Has that changed, Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, in 2007-2008 we had projected an increase in the number of seats through the Atlantic Vet College, through an Atlantic partnership with the other provinces in Atlantic Canada. We are still waiting on Nova Scotia to get Cabinet approval so we can move forward with that.

MR. BUTLER: So, there are three seats?

MS COCHRANE: We have a total of eight seats, eight students who are at the AVC today. We add two new seats every year and for our department we are adding one extra, so it will be three new seats every year from Newfoundland.

MR. BUTLER: So there will be three new –

MS COCHRANE: New students added each year.

MR. BUTLER: Just from Newfoundland alone?

MS COCHRANE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: Is that right?

MS COCHRANE: One extra; our two plus the new one that we are adding.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MS COCHRANE: As soon as we hear from Nova Scotia we will move to signing that agreement. They are not through their Cabinet process yet.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Cochrane.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thanks you.

I will try to get us out by nine o'clock, by rolling some things in together.

Head 3.4.04: I know that the budget had an increase in the Distance Learning category of $1.6 million, which was announced, and I can tell from the salaries and the grants and subsidies that that is the case. Rather than go through every line, Minister, I was just wondering if you could give us an idea of the growth in this program – you know, the growth in the centre and what the plans are for this year with the increase of $1.6 million.

MS BURKE: This will provide for more teachers in this particular category but it will also provide for the expansion to be able to add more courses to the CDLI suite of programs that we offer. Basically, that is what we are doing. We are expanding the program, the offices.

MS MICHAEL: So that is the expansion, more teachers and more courses?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Where are the teachers mainly located, who deliver?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that, Marian, although I know we have one of our former CDLI teachers here with us this evening.

MS FUSHELL: The teachers who deliver are located throughout the Province. They are in St. John's at the university and there are also locations in central Newfoundland, in Gander, at Stephenville and in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MS MICHAEL: Do they use the services of the university and the college in doing the program and delivering the program?

MS FUSHELL: Not for the delivery of the program, but they work with the people at the university in terms of using the same platform. If you recall, earlier this evening we talked about desire to learn.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS FUSHELL: They work with each other and they work through program staff, which is housed in the Gander office, which is in the school board office, actually. The partnerships involve in-kind contributions for space that we occupy, primarily.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

If we could move on then to 3.4.05, which is the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund: here under Grants and Subsidies, which is subhead 10, in the budget last year it was $4.9 million approximately but spent $2.7 million approximately, and this year the estimate is $2,096,200. Was the change in expenditure a factor of federal funding?

MS BURKE: Some of it was on the timing of the cash flow. This is the partnership we have with Persona and the federal government, and this is now the final year of that agreement. That was why the funding has been decreasing.

MS MICHAEL: Could you just give me a bit more detail on that agreement, Minister, please?

MS BURKE: You can speak to that, Rick.

MR. HAYWARD: That was a partnership arrangement between us and the federal government. We each put in $5 million and went out with a request for proposals for bidders, to hook up our distance communities. I think the partner is putting in $26 million to our collective $10 million. They encountered some delays with respect to the environmental assessment process and those kinds of things.

It is a fixed amount, in excess of $30 million. The Province is putting in $5 million, the feds are putting in $5 million and the partner is putting in $26 million, I believe, or certainly greater than $20 million anyway, to hook up sixty-six communities and 100 schools or the other way around. I cannot remember now. This is really just cash flow. It will be finished by September 2008

MS MICHAEL: 2008?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: When did it begin?

MR. HAYWARD: It began at least five years ago.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

So, back in 2003, over the past five years?.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes (inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: How many communities again? You said 100 schools and sixty-six communities, was it?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. HAYWARD: If not, I will email you tomorrow and correct it.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much.

Under head 3.4.06, Early Childhood Learning, I am not really sure about this. Is this something that is elective? In other words, some schools have early childhood programs and then apply for subsidies to subsidize those programs, or is it school boards? How exactly does it operate?

MS BURKE: This is more or less community groups that apply for funding and have projects that meet certain criteria under this program. In saying that, what I really want to do - and if you look at it you can see there is a budget increase in the salary because earlier I said there was one position that came out of one part of the department and went into another. Well, this is where we see where it comes in. It also ties into some of your questions on the full day Kindergarten.

What I want to do with this particular division of the department is to have a plan as to how we move forward, because I do not think it is acceptable that we give community groups money so if you are in community A this is what is available but you know you have to go 100 miles before you are going to get another community that offers a program. Not that I see anything wrong with the programs, but we need to look at something that is going to be universal in early childhood learning as well. I do not want to give the impression this means setting up teachers in classrooms because that is not what I am talking about. It means being able to make sure that children and parents have access to know what they should be doing at different developmental stages and have access to the resources to provide that. That is why I want another staff person here.

The other thing is, even though we are providing this money to the community groups and anecdotally they will send us in a wonderful report of everything they do, what do they really do and how is it measurable? The children who go through these programs, how do they measure that they are better prepared for Kindergarten as opposed to a child who has gone through none of the programs?

This whole area, to me, is there, we have resources and community groups are providing the service, but it is not formalized, it is not where I think needs to be right now. That is something that we have had discussions on within the department, but over the next year or so I really want to see a plan develop as to how we can move this ahead.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, I think you do have a vision and you use two of the words that I love using, and you have heard me use them, universal and plan. Within your vision - I am being very serious here - would you also include some of the experiences that are going on that I think are very successful, for example the Family Resource Centre at McPherson where you have community and school working together?

MS BURKE: Absolutely! Because the point of the matter is, you know, we can develop a program that does not take into account any of the resources that we have out there. Then you kind of question, well, why do we have these other resources out there? They are there, I just do not think we have the level of evaluation and accountability that we need.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: Who is to say when we develop a program or a plan, or how this is going to fall out, that we will not need resources in the community to help implement it. Now, if we have resources in the community that can assist and can help, that is what we have to start looking at.

I do not see this as setting up classrooms for preschoolers, but I do see it as being able to, as I said, help parents understand the developmental level of preschoolers and what resources are needed. If the resources and the materials are located within a family resource centre or another type of program or your public library or, in some communities, your school - I do not know how that is going to fall out but I think we have to build on what we have. It goes back to things like the Healthy Baby Club, immunization plans and public health nurses. There are all kinds of models out there, how we provide services in a universal fashion.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

I wonder would it be possible to get a list of the grants and subsidies that you gave in 2007 and what you anticipate for 2008?

MS BURKE: Yes. I do not think there is going to be much change, because I guess the basic premise is, until we are evaluating and there is some accountability, we really would not have any reason to kind of change right now.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Head 3.5.01, Provincial Information and Library Resources, just straight forward: In 2007-2008 the revised budget was basically $400,000 more than the estimated budget for 2007-2008, but in this year you are sort of estimating in the middle. The estimate for this year is $200,000 above the estimate for last year but it is not up to what you expended last year. I am just wondering why you did not put it up to what you actually expended last year.

MS BURKE: Last year the $400,000 increase: $350,000 went to address some of the structural issues at the library in Labrador City, and there was $50,000 for a marketing campaign. So they were kind of one-time - so you take the $400,000 out and why did we increase it? There is some increase in rental, $82,000. There is going to be development of the electronic library resources. That is $150,000, and some small salary adjustments. That is why the budget went up. It had nothing to do with why it went up last year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Coming over then to the Advanced Studies and this will probably go fairly quickly, I would imagine. Program Analysis and Evaluations is the title, 4.1.01. Last year the estimate was $1,068,500 in Salaries but only $480,300 was spent and this year the estimate is back up to just over $1 million. What happened last year that you did not spend what had been anticipated?

MS BURKE: There are ten new positions based in the budget from last year and it deals with the time it takes to do the recruitment issues and fill in these positions. The positions were over three places in the Province as well. Four, if you include the position in St. John's. It took time to do the recruitment. We acknowledged the positions last year and, of course, some of the year lapsed without doing the hiring. So that is why the budget would be back up this year, with the exception - there is $66,300 out of it. Again, that was a position that was reallocated to another part of the budget somewhere.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Is this a permanent thing, having program analysis and evaluation? It is not just here for a couple of years but is a permanent head?

MS BURKE: Yes. In post-secondary education, this is a permanent head within that division.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Moving down to subhead 06., Purchased Services; last year the budget was $486,000, only $70,000 was spent, and this year it is up to $506,000. What are you anticipating in putting the budget up as high as that this year?

MS BURKE: That was in 2006?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, 2006, subhead.

MS BURKE: In Purchased Services?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, Purchased Services.

MS BURKE: There were some delays in some of the initiatives that we wanted to carry forward last year. One was the curriculum review to power engineering, and there was some money for the under-represented groups and the apprenticeship training. There were some initiatives that, again, we wanted to get started last year, that we did not. So we are going to carry them through for this year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Under 09., there is a new expenditure this year that was not there last year. That is $25,000 under Allowances and Assistance. What would that be going towards?

MS BURKE: That is going towards scholarships for high school graduates who go into apprenticeship programs.

MS MICHAEL: Oh good, right. I remember that being in the Budget.

Under subhead 10, that is a significant amount of money under Grants and Subsidies, $995,000. Where do those grants and subsidies go?

MS BURKE: Do you want to address that one, Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE: Yes. Sure, minister.

I will itemize them for you. We are working on an initiative to support Aboriginals in the apprenticeship program; $200,000 is new to that initiative.

We are also providing another $200,000 - it was in the paper last weekend - for women in apprenticeship to try to get more women in the workplace.

We are doing an evaluation of the industry coordinating committee under the Skills Taskforce Report; that is $100,000.

We are looking at delivering apprenticeship training by distance, another $95,000, and we are expanding employer supports, a number of apprentices on the workplace, that is $200,000.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much. That is really helpful.

Where would the revenue in this head come from, the Provincial Revenue? I notice that last year it was $171,000, approximately.

MS BURKE: The bulk of that was $162,000 that was transferred to general revenue that was in the unexpended balance from the Career Academy train-out fund. There were no claims in against that, so it went into General Revenue.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

I do not need to do the Veterinary College.

Under 4.1.03., the Offshore Training Initiatives; you have Grants and Subsidies of $226,000. Are these grants and subsidies to individuals or are they grants and subsidies to companies?

MS BURKE: They are the Career Awards. Do you want to explain that a bit, Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE: Career Awards was a federal-provincial program that existed for nearly ten or more years. This is the residual impact. This is the provincial commitment, which we have continued when the federal government withdrew from the program. The money goes to students, grants of up to $5,000, vis-à-vis the College of the North Atlantic, Memorial University and Marine Institute.

MS MICHAEL: So to post-secondary students? Well, this is all post-secondary, yes.

MS COCHRANE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great. Thank you very much.

Under 4.1.04., Adult Learning and Literacy: Providing for research and evaluation of adult access and participation in education, enhancement policies and approaches to increase their undertaking of learning activities and coordinated and integrated literacy efforts in the Province.

There is a fair jump there in Salaries. Can you tell me what the new positions are? I presume they are new positions, and what the expectations of those positions are?

MS BURKE: Well, the decrease from last year was certainly in the delay in the staffing for a staff person, a consultant for the strategic literacy plan. So, that remains in for this year. Then, on top of that, we also have a consultant for the Aboriginal literacy plan and a program officer for the literacy development strategic plan, $130,000. There are actual positions here to help us with some of the planning around the adult - the strategic plan, plus the Aboriginal issues as well.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Professional Services, 05.; it is a curious amount of money just in this year, there was no money under Professional Services last year, $17,800. It looks very specific.

MS BURKE: Yes. That is a pan-Canadian innovation initiative that we cost-shared with the federal government. It is a three-year plan. So that falls under that. It is 100 per cent federally funded and it is a $1 million program, and it is $350,000 if you come down to Federal Revenue. That is part of that $350,000.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, 07., $192,000. There was no money under that last year but this year $192,000.

MS BURKE: The program itself that we are talking about here is new and it is being able to offer ABE by distance. So it would mean a purchase of equipment to enable the students -

MS MICHAEL: The software.

MS BURKE: Yes, or computers.

MS MICHAEL: Pardon?

MS BURKE: Or computers.

MS MICHAEL: Or computers, right, both software and hardware.

Okay, thank you.

Grants and Subsidies; one, could we have an idea of where these go and then also request a list afterwards?

MS BURKE: Yes. These would be places like the Education Network in Stephenville or Stella Burry here in St. John's, that offer Adult Basic Education, Level I.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

That new program that they are doing now on-line, is that part of this funding?

MS BURKE: No. This would be the ongoing. Like, the in classroom where different community groups offer the ABE, Level I.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, right.

MS BURKE: That is what this is about.

MS MICHAEL: Yes. No, the one I am thinking about is the one with HRLE because it is related to career exploration.

MS BURKE: Okay.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, and then $350,000 from the federal government.

Thank you. We are getting there, folks.

I think the university is straightforward, it is head 4.2.01. I notice it says: Appropriations provide for the operation of Memorial University of Newfoundland, including the Marine Institute. I am assuming it means all the campuses of the university?

MS BURKE: It does, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Does it include the UK as well, or just the –

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: It does, does it?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: So all the campuses, all right.

The federal monies are certainly going down. The estimate for last year was $2,600,000 and then the revised is down to approximately $1.4 million. Why exactly is that happening? Is this negotiated every year? What is their contribution based on?

MS BURKE: Are you talking about the federal revenue?

MS MICHAEL: The federal revenue.

MS BURKE: That federal revenue flowed from Bill C-48. We are in the last year now of this Bill C-48. So the trust ends this year.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: So it was decreasing every year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, and this is the last year?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: So that million is the last.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Again, I think the Physical Plant and Equipment is straightforward. Again, that would be for all the campuses of the university, I guess?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

4.3.01.; again, that is straightforward. It is the grants and subsidies to the college, and you have the plant as well.

One of the things that I thought about, this is - it is probably an unfair thing even to think about because it is probably irrelevant, but I am still going to ask. Do we know how much per capita the subsidies to the university are and the subsidy to the college, per student?

MS BURKE: I do not have the number off the top of my head but - Rachelle, you may, what it costs to go to the college versus the university?

MS COCHRANE: I do. I do not know it in my head but, yes, the numbers do exist. It is a StatsCan publication, and our numbers are higher than the per student cost in other provinces. It goes back to the issue with respect to geography. The university serves the whole Province, the college operates seventeen campuses.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Ms Cochrane, could we have those figures?

MS COCHRANE: Certainly.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Student Financial Services, which is 4.4.01. Salaries, 01., this is: for the administration of the needs-based Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Student Loans Program. Under Salaries it is going up by over $100,000 this year from the estimate last year.

MS BURKE: There will be a new manager position in there, plus three client services representatives as well. Basically, that is in relation to the fact that there were issues with regards to people being able to phone and access information and get to talk to a person.

I cannot remember now offhand the number of calls that were going unanswered because we had that recorded but obviously, every student must have called numerous times to get to the number that we had that were unanswered. So, really we had a demonstrated need that people needed to talk to someone, needed to get information.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Well, I have no objection to that. It is essential for them to get the assistance.

Subhead 03., what would the Transportation and Communications cover because I notice it is going up to $119,000, which is quite a jump from where it was?

MS BURKE: Well, one thing we will be doing, obviously, is getting new IT equipment so that they can respond to the request. There is going to be a 1-800 number as well. There will be other issues with regards to communication equipment because these positions will not be located in St. John's. They are going to be in different areas of the Province, the three positions, where there are quite a number of students who may be trying to access the service. The positions are actually going to Clarenville, Grand Falls-Windsor, and Corner Brook. It will be an increased cost just in setting up that whole 1-800, the IT system that they are going to need and the travel and communications in relation to those positions.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Just for clarification before I do anymore subheads. This is basically to do with new loans and managing loans that exist. Is that what this is about?

MS BURKE: Yes, and like providing information to somebody who has never negotiated a financial transaction before with a bank or a credit card or anything and then they are caught with borrowing thousands of dollars and they have to ask something. They were probably asking them for information. If you go in on the Web site and you read it, it is really straightforward, but for somebody who is new to all of this. That is why we are trying to make it more user friendly and more information provided upfront. We do get a lot of inquiries after the fact, where people just really did not understand what they were getting into, did not understand how much money they were borrowing, what it was going to mean to pay it back and probably got themselves into programs that are not going to give high-paying jobs. It is just really trying to help people in the front end understand what it is that they are getting into here.

MS MICHAEL: That's good.

As we come down then to subhead 10., Grants and Subsidies, is that the actual loans?

MS BURKE: No. The Grants and Subsidies - Rachelle, you can speak to this, too - that is the interest relief program that we have. Are you at Grants and Subsidies, number 10?

MS MICHAEL: Grants and Subsidies under 4.4.01.

MS BURKE: Yes. That is based on the interest relief.

Am I correct, Rachelle?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, correct. We have less students who are using the program and our repayment rates are improving.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great.

I was wondering where that was located. Okay, great. Thank you.

Well, I think 4.4.02. is straightforward and 4.4.03. - of course, this is the Student Loans Program, but I notice that Grants and Subsidies last year was $33,517,300 and this year it is down to $18,440,600.

MS BURKE: That number in no way reflects that there is less money in the Student Loans Program. It just reflects that there is less need for us to put money into the program. One thing that has been significant is the amount of - repayment of student loans is way up. I think that is indicative, probably, of the labour market, not just here in the Province but probably within Canada or worldwide in the global competition in how – and education certainly lends itself to being able to be in a better financial position. We have put more emphasis on collections in the meantime and we certainly have reduced the need here.

MS MICHAEL: The provincial revenue, that is the repayments, I take it, is it? I am sorry, 02. Revenue – Provincial.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

4.5.01., the Salaries in this category, this is the Apprenticeship Training Administration. I noticed last year, maybe you had somebody hired for a year, just for that year because it went up $100,000 over budget, but this year the estimate is back down to what would seem to be parallel to last year.

MS BURKE: The increase last year was a result of having to pay out annual leave and severance to somebody who left. Then the small increase from last year to this year is the fact that the staff were at a higher point on the pay scale.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Okay.

Transportation and Communications; subhead 03. is $175,900 and you are leaving it there in the estimate even though you have spent less than $100,000 last year.

MS BURKE: Yes. There is no reason why we spent less other than that it was less than what we had in the budget. I cannot give an explanation other than we did not use all the money.

MS MICHAEL: Right. You might as well keep it there.

MS BURKE: For now, anyway.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Overall, minister, just since we are on the Apprenticeship; the apprenticeship initiatives, as I do not need to tell you, are close to my heart. I am very glad about them and quite delighted with the concentration on women and on Aboriginal persons. How are things going in terms of people getting in? It is too early to do an evaluation but you must have numbers and stuff and information that we could access?

MS BURKE: Yes, we do. Rachelle, you can speak to this, too.

We do have numbers about the number of people going into the apprentice trades, how many are following throughout the program and the numbers on females. We have certainly been trying to really get the emphasis on the younger student as well. It goes back to the skilled trades in high school and wanting the schools and the boards to have 50 per cent female participation in those programs. Even the centennial scholarships that came down from Alberta, we focus that on the skilled trades and on females. We are really trying to promote it as best we can and make some acknowledgements there. In our contract and what we are doing with the IBEW for female electricians, the numbers are quite modest but they are very real as well. I think it will show some real progress. We do not need to go setting goals that are going to set us all up for failure. We are going to continue, that something that I emphasize constantly over in the department.

Rachelle, I do not know if you have any specific figures you could share.

MS COCHRANE: Yes, I do. It is actually quite startling because I have been in the apprenticeship business as well for over twenty years.

Our registrations in 2005 were 807; our new registrations in the apprenticeship system. This would be new people coming in, joining as apprentices. That was in 2005.

In 2007, we are up to 1,363. So we have seen about a 70 per cent increase in a two-year period in new registrations in the program. All our numbers are up. The number of individuals writing the exams is higher; the number of people coming back from Alberta is higher. We have a lot of statistics.

We do have a ways to go on the females, and as the minister indicated, there is a new initiative that we are hoping to try to make some inroads as well.

MS MICHAEL: If any of that information is consolidated in any kind of way, could we have a copy of that?

MS COCHRANE: Yes. Minister, I have a table I can provide.

MS MICHAEL: That's great.

Thank you very much.

You mentioned that you encouraged the school boards to have fifty-fifty in the high school skilled-trades program. Are you more or less succeeding in that, do you think?

MS BURKE: We are not there yet.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: Even in our promotions of the program, we made sure that we had females front and centre in the posters and everything that we launched. So we are really - I will check the numbers again now come September, but I will not stop until it is there.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Are you using any OTT graduates to act as mentors or anything in any of the communities?

MS BURKE: I am not sure. I know there are different programs, different ways that we are – actually, what we are really doing, the emphasis right now is on the teachers. A lot of the teachers who do some of this, we have had them out in placements so that they can talk about – because they only know the workforce as being a teacher, although they are trying to promote this other sector. So one thing we have been doing is trying to match up some of the teachers with workplaces, and I know that they have – I cannot say specifically about females who have been in, but I know they are trying to bring in people as well to assist with the classroom instruction.

MS MICHAEL: Yes. That will be a way to turn that around, get women connecting up with women.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Final head, 4.5.02. Training Programs. This is in-school training for the registered apprentices which is recoverable from the federal government.

Purchased Services, 06., are those services purchased then from the schools themselves, from the colleges, I guess, are they?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Yes. Okay.

Is that just the public colleges, the College of the North Atlantic, or does it include private colleges?

MS COCHRANE: It includes both, both the College of the North Atlantic and our private institutions that offer apprenticeship.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

That is totally covered by the federal government.

All right, thank you very much for you patience and for your answers to all these questions. That is the end of my questions, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Michael.

Mr. Butler, I believe you have a couple of quick questions.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. On that same line, 4.5.02., where it says all the funds are recovered from the federal government. I wonder, is there a cap on it with the feds, or can that be increased or what have you, or is there a cap that you judge by?

MS BURKE: Back to you, Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: Yes, there is a cap on that funding of $5.8 million. Just historically, that number used to be about $3.5 million. About three years ago we made a request to the federal government and it got increased to $5.8 million. We expect - we have to report on this - that if we are able to indicate additional expenditures, I think we will be successful in putting forward our proposal. Hopefully, our numbers will prove that true and we will move that system.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

When we were on the heading 3.5.01., just a general question. You do not have to go through the heading with any figures or anything. With regards to stats, I was just wondering, our public libraries in the Province, the numbers of people using them, do we keep stats on that? Have they been on an increase or a decrease over the last four or five years?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we do. They issue an annual report, Mr. Butler. They issue an annual report so you can go in on-line and have a look at their annual report and they will tell you how many users they have and what libraries are open and closed. If you need the Web site I will send it to you.

MR. BUTLER: Very good, sir.

4.2.02., Physical Plant and Equipment. I know the budget last year was $22,700,000 and revised to $11,500,000 and I know it is up again this year but that is not the figure. I was just wondering, why was the reduction from the budget to the revised number there?

MS BURKE: That was basically because we were unable to get the amount of work done that we would have hoped to have done last year. That is in relation to the academic building in Corner Brook and, as well, to the residences in both Corner Brook and St. John's.

MR. BUTLER: Just a couple of other questions.

We mentioned earlier there is a decline in the student population in our schools throughout the Province. I was just wondering, are we experiencing the same thing in post-secondary or is that on an increase?

MS BURKE: It depends, because some are on an increase - it is hard to say overall, but we have not been losing students. Some places are up and some are down a bit but there are certainly a lot of post-secondary students in the university from Nova Scotia and other parts of Canada, and international students. So, as much as we are probably losing our base somewhat here in Newfoundland and Labrador, there have also been students who have not traditionally studied here in the Province that are here as well.

MR. BUTLER: My last question, minister. I know after the Budget - and I think I am correct in what I am going to say. The president of the college made a comment after the Budget that she did not think the amount allocated was enough. I was just wondering, why do you think she made her comments and what is your understanding of it?

MS BURKE: Well, Ms Madill came with us in September, so this is her first budget, and I think they do have sufficient funding. When we look at the college and where we have brought it in the last few years, we have certainly doubled the capacity in skilled trades. Over the last two years we have increased the base funding at the college by $18.9 million. So, we have seen increases in the budget.

I think we need to certainly continue to look at the college, but make sure – we have grown it to a certain extent now. We have to have some level of stability there as well. So, I guess Ms Madill has not been around for the last two years to see the significant influx of money into the college. There has been another increase this year into the shop modernization, but in fairness, when you look at the Province and you look at the role of the College of the North Atlantic, and our labour market and where we are going, we have invested heavily, and I do not doubt we will continue to do so.

MR. BUTLER: That is it for me. I want to thank the minister and your officials. I think I said in the beginning, staff – I thought I was in school somewhere, but to the minister and her officials for your responses and your co-operation this evening.

MS BURKE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Butler.

Any further questions?

OFFICIAL: No.

CHAIR: Okay. We will call the subheads for Education.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01. carried.

CLERK: Subheads 1.2.01. to 4.5.02. inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.2.01. to subhead 4.5.02. inclusive carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01. through 4.5.02. carried.

CLERK: Department total $1,092,213,300.

CHAIR: Shall the totals carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates for the Department of Education carried without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates for the Department of Education carried.

CHAIR: Before we adjourn, I, too, would like to thank the minister and your officials for your attendance here this evening and for your patience and for your diligence in asking the questions and thoroughness.

Thank you very much.

I will now entertain a motion to adjourn.

MR. CORNECT: So moved.

CHAIR: Move by Mr. Cornect.

MR. KING: Seconded.

CHAIR: Mr. King.

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded.

The Committee stands adjourned.