The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Hutchings): Good morning, everybody; we will get started.

I welcome everybody to the Estimates Committee, the Social Services Committee.  This morning we will be hearing the Estimates from the Department of Education. 

What I would like to do now is if the Committee could introduce themselves starting at my far right. 

MR. YOUNG: Wallace Young, St. Barbe. 

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, MHA, St. John's North.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, Port au Port. 

MR. KEVIN PARSONS: Kevin Parsons, Cape St. Francis. 

MR. DEAN: Marshall Dean, The Straits & White Bay North. 

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi. 

CHAIR: Thank you. 

Keith Hutchings, MHA for Ferryland. 

What we have been doing, when I call the first heading, Minister, I will go to you.  You are free to go right to questions or to give any statements you would like to give.  When I do that, before you start, I would like for the members of your department to introduce themselves.  I remind you that when you are speaking each time to identify yourself for the benefit of Hansard so they can pick up who is speaking at the particular time. 

With that, I will ask the Clerk to call the first heading. 

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

With that, Minister, I will go to you for any comments and to introduce your staff. 

MS BURKE: I will ask my staff to introduce themselves, but I do not have any opening comments. 

CHAIR: Okay, so we will hear the introduction of staff and then we will go right to the Committee. 

MR. PIKE: Darrin Pike, Deputy Minister.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services. 

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell, Assistant Deputy Minister of Primary, Elementary and Secondary programs. 

MR. BELBIN: Bruce Belbin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Advanced Studies.

MS CLARKE: Ingrid Clarke, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure. 

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Departmental Comptroller. 

MS STAMP: Tracy Stamp, Manager of Budgeting. 

MS NOSEWORTHY: Bernadette Noseworthy, Executive Assistant. 

MS MAY: Heather May, Director of Communications. 

CHAIR: Okay.  We will go to our Committee. 

Mr. Dean.

MR. DEAN: Thank you.

Good morning, everyone.  We will start with some questions around line items.  Our first one would be in section 1.2.01 and I have one question from there on line item 03. Transportation and Communications.  We are carrying forward the same budget as last year but we spent, in this particular year, 80 per cent over or whatever the case might be - $54,300 was budgeted and $92,000 is the actual revised.  Could we have some explanation detailing that, please? 

MS BURKE: That relates to relocation when we hired an assistant deputy minister who relocated from Alberta.  The costs for the relocation are covered there. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.

In 2.1.03, line item 01., there is an increase in salaries.  I would assume that is an additional staff member or whatever, but you can give us some detail on that - 2.1.03, line 01. 

MS BURKE: In that case there were two temporary positions to support the policy functions - two new temporary positions. 

MR. DEAN: Okay, so was there one added in this year as well?  We budgeted $352,000 and we are at $386,000, and we are going forward to $497,000.

MS COLE: Yes, they were added part way through the last fiscal year, so there is a portion of the year for their salaries. 

MR. DEAN: What were they for again, sorry? 

MS COLE: Pardon?

MR. DEAN: What were they for again?  What is the –

MS BURKE: They were there to support the policy functions.

MR. DEAN: Okay. 

Line 05., Professional Services, did not get used this year, or not very much of that budget, but we are carrying the same budget forward again. 

MS BURKE: That is used for external consultant reports.  It was just that the requirements or the demand was not the same last year as it normally has been or what we anticipate. 

MR. DEAN: So that number normally is what is used or thereabouts?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

In 2.2.01, again, we have a variance in the salaries.  You have basically gone back to last year's number more or less.  In this particular year, we are $220,000 approximately over budget.

MS BURKE: What that represents there is that Industry Canada provided a one-time contribution of $218,000 that was meant and used to hire some additional youth under a CAP Youth Initiative.  There were twenty-five new placements for up to three months, and there are extensions to thirty placements.  If you look at federal revenue down at the end of that, that goes up there and that is what that was used for.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Line 07., is this a one-time expenditure for some extra property, furnishings, and whatever?

MS COLE: There is $750,000 there provided for grants to our CAP sites across the Province.  That is used to help support some temporary part-time people, equipment, and any requirement they have.  This year, instead of each site purchasing their own equipment in order to avail of both purchasing discounts, the department bought tender for them, bought the computers for them, and then just transferred the money to Property, Furnishings and Equipment to pay for them all.

MR. DEAN: So we see that line 07. and line 10. kind of go together.

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay, great.  Thank you.

In 3.1.01, Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students was half of our budget last year, and we have decreased it 20 per cent or so for the coming year.  Can you tell us where that is now in terms of the change that was made in the school last year, the School for the Deaf, to where it is now?

MS BURKE: One thing I want to bring to your attention as you bring up 3.1.01 is if you look under 10. Grants and Subsidies, and then under that Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, in the second column, the revised is $519,000.  That should actually be $900,900.  That is an error there, so when you see those numbers -

MR. DEAN: What was it again, sorry?

MS BURKE: It is $900,900 as opposed to $519,500.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  So that is just a typo?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Does the total change? 

MS BURKE: I am not hearing what you are saying.

MR. DEAN: Does the total change? 

MS BURKE: No.

MR. DEAN: Okay. 

3.1.02. School Board Operations; kind of comparing some of the numbers over the past three, four, five years to see where – because obviously education is one of the larger pieces of our Budget and one of the ones that has increased substantially.  The School Board Operations in particular was of interest to me, the fact that we have gone from about $138 million for total School Board Operations four or five years ago, and this year we are going to $191 million.  Our revised is $186 million.  Now I know that is layered over certain pieces of the Budget, particularly item 10.  I am assuming that the school boards, the restructuring was all done and this kind of thing.  I am just wondering why the School Board Operations budget would be increasing that much, by $50 million over about four or five years. 

MS COLE: I do not have the details on the previous years and what specific increases would have been.  That covers salaries for board and district personnel and it covers all the operations of the school including the head and light, utilities and all those sorts of things.  Those things are increasing, as you know.  Also, a couple of years back we removed the requirement for parents to pay school fees, and so we had to cover that off in it. 

Marian, I do not know if you know of anything else that would be –

MS FUSHELL: School busing.

MS COLE: Yes, school busing is also in there.  The increased cost in fuel over the past few years has been a significant increase there also.

MR. DEAN: Yes, I would look at the busing.  The busing is going to $47 million this year and it was $45 million last year, and if you go back four or five years ago that was $34 million.  I understand that piece of it.  You are going back after a new contract, for the most part.

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: The Regular Operating Grant, what items are in there that you just mentioned, because that one is gone from about $78 million to $103 million?  Was that a $25 million increase or a 30 per cent increase in that particular line or that piece of the line, the Regular Operating Grants?

MS COLE: Yes.  That includes school operations, all the utilities, snow clearing, janitorial maintenance and secretarial.  Salary increases are in there for the school boards and it is just the regular general operating.  I can certainly have a look back through the past few years to see if there is anything unusual in those years that would have resulted in a big increase and get back to you.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  Probably the thing that would be most interesting is the salaries, because things like snow clearing and other things, we do not have control.  They are considered controllable expenses but in reality they are not really, you have to go and get those services.  I would be interested in seeing how the salaries have changed in the school board operations over the past four or five years.

MS COLE: Okay.  They would have gotten the same salary increases as the general service.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS COLE: So, that would have been 8, 4, 4, and 4.

MR. DEAN: Yes, I guess the question would be the numbers.  Are there more staff than – right?

MS COLE: Okay, I can certainly get that information for you.

MR. DEAN: All right, that would be good.

We can go to 3.1.05. School Services.  We had budgeted $301,000 for Salaries, line 01, and the actual was $381,000 and our new budget is $664,000.

MS BURKE: The revised indicates there was severance and annual leave paid out for a long-time employee who retired.  The salary increase this year shows that School Services is now responsible for school development and the school board liaison.  That used to be under student testing in the budget.  It has shifted from one division to another, and that would be the difference.  There are four positions that have moved from one division to another.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Ms Michael might want to –

CHAIR: Okay, we will switch.

MR. DEAN: Sure.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I would like to back up a bit.  If we could go back to 3.1.01, the Grants and Subsidies; the explanation was fine, I had the same question.  It is not significant I know but the revised column, all those numbers would become different, by the way, with the $900,900, but it is not significant.  It does not affect anything but all the numbers do change with that new number put in.  The $519,500 was the number that was used, but that is not what I want to ask you about.

Under this section Teaching Services, you have the Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, I am curious as to why that is not in section 3.3.03, which is Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students.

MS BURKE: In order to look at that in total, what we are doing there, you need to look at 3.1.01 plus the 3.3.03.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS BURKE: When you look at that first one, the 3.1.01, that is teachers' salaries only.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: The other section on page 198 represents the services other than the teaching salaries.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Is there any rationale for separating the teaching salaries out from them?  I am just curious because you do have these services, such as the ASL interpretation, et cetera, in 3.3.03.  I guess just because you do have an overall term, Teaching Services, in general?

MS BURKE: We do, and we have a teachers' payroll division that would administer that money.

MS MICHAEL: Sure, okay.

In that section, I probably should know this, but I do not think I have asked before, what are the institutional schools now?

MS BURKE: Whitbourne.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, just the Whitbourne school.  Okay, good enough, thank you.

MS BURKE: I ask that every year, too.  What institutional schools do we have?

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so just Whitbourne.

This really does not fit under here but I am not sure where else to ask it.  I became aware this year, more than before, with regard to home schooling and that there actually is an association of people who do home schooling, et cetera.  What is the relationship between parents who are doing home schooling and the Department of Education?

MS BURKE: The parents who do home schooling are actually associated with the board where they reside.  It would not be a direct relationship with the department but it would be under the board that the child would normally go to school under.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: Their relationship would be with the board for books, curriculum, testing.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so the services from the board would be making sure that everything like that, that they need to have at home –

MS BURKE: Would go directly through the – and they would be on the board's count.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, very good.  Thank you.

Do you know how many - you probably do not because it would be under each of the boards – home schooling situations we have in the Province?

MS BURKE: We do not know.  We do not have that number.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: I do not think it is high, though.

MS MICHAEL: No, I would not imagine.  Is that easily found out?  Would you be able to get that for us?  I am curious, just because I had this experience where a student who was home schooled and in meeting with her and her mother, it was just – she probably interviewed you too, I do not know.  She interviewed a number of us in the House of Assembly, she was doing a project.  I just became interested because of that interaction.  I said, well how many are being home schooled and where do they fit, et cetera.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

If we could back up once more, I think I have a question under another section that Marshall did not ask – 2.1.02, I think.  Yes, 2.1.02. Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees - that is just a grants and subsidies line - could we have a list of who gets those grants and subsidies?

MS BURKE: Yes, I can give you the list.  The list is: the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institute; the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada - CMEC; the Federation of School Councils; the Community Education Network; provincial membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation; Cultural Connection Strategy; TI Murphy; Encounters with Canada; the Licensed Practical Nursing Program at the Centre for Nursing Studies; the Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium; Learning Disabilities Association; and the Canadian Education Association which is the annual sustaining contribution.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  So some of those are sort of like fees or money that supports your participation in some of these bodies?

MS BURKE: Right, like CMEC; we would be a member of CMEC, so we would have a portion that we would pay for that operation.

MS MICHAEL: Others are money that goes directly to a group for its own -

MS BURKE: Community groups or whatever.

MS MICHAEL: That is right.  Okay, thank you very much.

Now we can move forward a bit.  I think that is straightforward – 3.1.07.  Capital, 3.1.07. School Facilities - New Construction and Alterations to Existing Facilities, you know what is coming of course.  I noticed last year that under Professional Services there was $1 million less than what had been budgeted; the revision is $1 million down.  Of course my concern is a school in my district, Virginia Park Elementary.

In the Budget for 2010, the Budget said that capital under K-12 infrastructure would include “funding to support a commitment to build a new school to replace Virginia Park Elementary in St. John's”.  It always bothered me that it just said “funding” and there was no money allocated.  In Estimates, I did ask the minister of the day and the indication was that Virginia Park Elementary could be one of the schools included.  Obviously, no money has been put forward to Virginia Park yet, even though we have what I consider to be a strong commitment from you, made with all parties, about Virginia Park school.  There is no mention of Virginia Park school in this year's Budget, so I obviously have a major concern.  What is happening?

MS BURKE: I will comment and then I will ask the deputy to comment as well.  The Virginia Park school is announced and is proceeding.  I understand that we had some delays and some issues probably that needed to be sorted out with regard to the site.  There was a debate that was happening regarding were we going to replace Holy Heart or refurbish Holy Heart.  If we replace Holy Heart, I think the sites were lining up to be the same place for Virginia Park and Holy Heart. 

We had a bump that we had to work through, and we have worked through that.  Holy Heart will be refurbished versus replaced; we are going out to look for a new site.  I will ask the deputy to comment further but I think some of the site issues that were holding us up have been relieved for us.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: Do you want to comment further on that?

MR. PIKE: There is not much to add to that comment.  We did not re-announce the announcement because it has already been announced, so that is typical of the process.  Yes, we did have a site.  Not until mid-March did the board write us to say that now Virginia Park, the site that they had selected is still one they prefer but it was tied up in the Holy Heart situation that the minister referred to.

MS BURKE: There needed to be a final decision on Holy Heart.

MS MICHAEL: Can we expect in this fiscal year we are now in that the actual – because obviously now money has to go into the planning.  Is that going to happen?  Is there going to be a call for – obviously it is going to have to be a tender called with regard to planning.

MR. PIKE: We are on the final stages of the site selection process, the final details, i's dotted and t's crossed on that piece, and then planning will proceed.  Everything should proceed as normal without any unforeseen circumstances arising.

MS MICHAEL: Is the decision made that it is the Janeway site?

MS BURKE: We are in the final stages of that.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: Once that is finalized, we will announce that.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Is the school council involved in this discussion at the moment or is this just an internal discussion?

MR. PIKE: The school council is not involved.  Obviously, the school council has been vocal in making their opinion of the site, so I guess there is no reason to discuss anything with them at this point in time since there is not an alternative site in play.  We are just proceeding, getting the final site selection and then communicate that with the announcement that the minister was mentioning.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so there is not an alternative site in play?

MR. PIKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much, that helps me.

MS BURKE: The alternative site would have set us farther behind had we decided to build a new high school because then we would have had to determine a place for both schools. 

MS MICHAEL: Right, yes.

MS BURKE: One school would have gone on that site; which one, I guess, would have been the debate.  Anyway, we do not have to have that discussion. 

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is great.  Thank you very much.  That is all very helpful.

I can put all of this away now and hope that very soon we are going to have a decision.  If not, you will be hearing from me, but I will take your word on this one.  That, obviously, was my big one for 3.1.07.  I will just do one more and then turn it back to the Chair.  I want to be even here in how we use the time. 

In 3.2.01, the one here for me is under Grants and Subsidies.  This is the appropriations for the development and evaluation of curriculum and instructional materials.  Where does that money get spent, the grants and subsidies, and why has it gone down $20,000 this year? 

MS BURKE: You are looking at line 10?

MS MICHAEL: Line 10., yes. 

MS BURKE: The grants and subsidies go to the skilled trades and technology and the interprovincial travel program.  The skilled trades and technology budget is what went down by the 20 per cent and that was because of the approved amounts we had over time to start implementing the program and how many schools we wanted to bring in.  That is going to start decreasing as more schools come on. 

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Can we have an update on that, Minister, where things are in terms of the movement in increasing the number of schools? 

MS BURKE: Yes.

Marian, do you want to speak to that for me? 

MS FUSHELL: Sure. 

We have 132 schools that offer high school programming.  Of that number, 100 currently have skilled trades courses provided to the students.  Of the remaining, with the use of the budget that we just talked about, there are plans then to bring on twenty more schools.  The schools that remain, for the most part, are schools with very small high school populations; some of them will not have skilled trades.  For example, there would be three or four high school students in the school and it would not be feasible for government to invest building a suite or doing renovations for those students. 

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS FUSHELL: Some of them are availing of some of the courses through the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation where the numbers are very small.

MS MICHAEL: Has there been any assessment yet, or maybe it is too early, of numbers of students coming out of high school who are choosing to go into skilled trades who might have been affected by having this initiative in place, or is it too early for that assessment?

MS FUSHELL: It would be too early to determine that because this is the first year of full implementation from Grades 10, 11 and 12.  The phase-in took that long because of the number of courses at each grade level.  So those who are coming through would be this year's graduates and onward.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I will take a break.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Marshall.

MR. DEAN: Thank you.

Minister, you mentioned Holy Heart of Mary school and the renovations and so on.  Can you give us some detail around when you expect that to start, whether you are going to do it with students in the school or will you be displacing the students while it is on the go? 

MS BURKE: It is far too early to say how we are going to do it.  We are starting the planning and we announced it this year.  The first phase, obviously, is the planning.  We will have to determine the extent of work and the time frames and what needs to be done and what can be done with the students in the school.  There may be times - we went through Corner Brook Regional High where we had to relocate the students on a temporary basis.  Whether or not we would have to do that with Holy Heart right now, I cannot say.  If we do, it has to be part of our planning process.  So, I cannot say right now.

What logically may happen here in the city is that as we build a west end high school and we continue the planning, we may have some empty buildings that we may be able to avail of or we may have to seek out alternate sites, or they may stay.  I really cannot give an answer to that, but I do know it is quite a tangly piece of work for all involved to work through a construction site and provide education all the one time.

MR. DEAN: Obviously, some students would have to be, I guess, displaced -

MS BURKE: I assume, but until we see the plan - I know a significant amount of work that has to go into it and it going to take a lot of co-operation from students, parents, teachers, staff, school board, department, everyone has to work together once this starts because safety is the big issue.  Getting the work done and having a safe environment is what it is all about.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MS BURKE: The other thing is we have to also proceed that the student's education is not interrupted.  It is a balancing act and we have to do it.

MR. DEAN: Okay, so we really do not know when that is going to start, whether it will start this year or next year or –

MS BURKE: The construction will not start this year.  This is just announced and the planning has to take place; that is our first phase.  So, there will be no construction this year. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Well, the fact that everyone is on side with the school I guess they are all willing to endure the pain that it takes to bring it through the process.  We should not have too many worries about that.

MS BURKE: I hope so, but I know it is disruptive.  I know it is not easy, but it is a process we have to go through.  I guess it is the short-term pain for the long-term gain in this case.

MR. DEAN: Yes, okay.

Another question on buildings, seeing we are kind of talking about that, the new school in Paradise and the congestion on the parking lot concern and so on, has that been looked at or is anything done with that? 

MR. PIKE: We have met with the school council and there are some alternative plans to help increase the parking availability on the site.  The traffic flow has improved.  I guess some of it is the new school phenomena and, of course, any of these elementary schools would have congestion in the morning and in the evening.

MR. DEAN: Sure.

MR. PIKE: We are looking at some plans to help the school with extra parking.

MR. DEAN: Tim Hortons has some ideas for that, hey? 

MS BURKE: They are putting a drive-through in the school.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

[Laughter]

MR. DEAN: The one that interests me the most, of course, is St. Anthony.  I know the tender was called -

MS BURKE: We cancelled that one, didn't we?

MR. DEAN: What is that?

MS BURKE: I said I think we cancelled that one.

MR. DEAN: Did you really?

[Laughter]

MR. DEAN: I know the tender is called, so just help me understand the timeline for that.  Does that construction actually start this year?

OFFICIAL: Ingrid would be best to answer that.

MS CLARKE: Construction will continue this year –

CHAIR: If I could remind you to introduce yourself before you speak.

MS CLARKE: Oh sorry, Ingrid Clarke.

Construction will continue this year and into next year.  We expect that the school should be open in the fall of 2013. 

MR. DEAN: Okay, 2013.  At that point will the school in St. Lunaire-Griquet close?

MS CLARKE: That is the board's plan.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Under section 3.2.02. Language Programs, can you give us some idea of what line 10., Grants and Subsidies, would amount to?

MS BURKE: The Grants and Subsidies under this heading go to the school boards for teacher professional learning.  There is funding there for the French program implementation specialists.  It is the implementation for the intensive core French program.  There are resources and teachers aid for ten new classes for French immersion implementation.  There is funding for the winter and spring camps for the Grade 6 intensive core French students in Nova Central.  There is funding for teacher aids for French immersion in the primary and elementary classes – nineteen classes.  There is funding there for the adult literacy for FFL and FSL at CNA and Grenfell, which is French first language and second language training.  There is funding for summer programs for students.  There are immersion kits for the kindergarten students – funding for that.  There is funding for the Saturday French schools offered by the Francophone Association of St. John's.

There is funding there for seven teachers seconded from District 1 and District 4.  There is support for the recruitment of French teachers at MUN – funds provided to the Faculty of Education.  There are grants to the Francophone school district for projects such as additional teacher units for distance education, preschools, and cultural programs, and there are grants to the Anglophone school districts for resources and projects promoting French second language.  So that is the Grants and Subsidies.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

I believe you missed number five, did you?  I am only kidding; I am writing them down.

In the same section, your revenue from the federal government, it seems like we are going to get less next year.  Is that correct?  We are down from $7 million to $3.9 million.

MS BURKE: Do you want to comment on that, Ramona?

MS COLE: Last year's budget provided for a receipt of two years' revenues from the federal government.  The federal government pays a significant amount of money toward that program, and because the agreement was a little bit late getting signed the previous year, we did not receive the money until last year.  So this year it is back to just the one year's worth of revenue.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

In the next section, 3.3.01. Student Support Services, can you comment on line 05. Professional Services?  We have increased our budget this year by $220,000, and last year we did not spend it all, of course.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to the pilot we started last year to deal with at-risk youth.  The pilot was later starting than what we had anticipated or budgeted for, and this year, of course, the pilot has started now and we will continue with that.  There is also funding to increase the budget relating to the positive actions for student success, for that initiative as well.  So that was approved under our Poverty Reduction Strategy: working with youth at risk.  That is reflected there in that line.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Section 3.4.01. Student Testing and Evaluation, again one of those areas in kind of seeing where our numbers have gone over the few years.  This one seemed to be a fairly large discrepancy.  In 2004-2005, I think we were around $128,000.  I am looking at line 01. Salaries.  I know there is also another section which is not there now.  I forget the name of it, but there was about $600,000 worth of salaries there as well.  So I kind of assumed they may go together which would have given us around $700,000.  Right now we are at $1.5 million.  What would demand the increase in salaries in that particular piece of the education program?

MS BURKE: What line are you referring to?

MR. DEAN: I am in section 3.4.01 and I am looking at line 01. Salaries.

MS BURKE: Okay, line 01. Salaries.  When you look at what we had budgeted last year and then into the revised, that reduction is a reflection of a manager position that had remained vacant.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: Then when you look further into this year and you look at the reduced budget again, that goes back to the fact that School Services is now responsible for the school development and the school board liaison position.  That used to fall under Student Testing and Evaluation.  It is a reduction here, but it is an add-on.  The positions were moved – four positions.

MR. DEAN: My point was - and I may not have been clear in what I was saying - if we go back in 2005 I think it was of looking at the budget for that year on that line was $128,000.  This year it is at $1.5 million.  There was another piece in section 3.4.02 that had some salaries in there as well.  So the lineup in terms of the Estimates has changed somewhat, but on that particular line there was $600,000.  I kind of assumed perhaps those two belonged together but, still, if they did, it was $700,000 compared to $1.5 million this year.  I was just wondering, if I was reading it correctly, why Student Testing and Evaluation salaries would have increased like that.

MS FUSHELL: A number of years ago there were actually two activities for Student Testing and Evaluation: one was High School Certification and one was Student Testing and Evaluation.  Both of these sections, line objects, would have had a salary line.  There were two separate salary lines; there is now one.  So that is one factor contributing to the increase.

The other is that a number of years ago, the department received budget approval to increase the number of positions in that particular division to do program evaluations and increased accountability measures as it relates to evaluating programs.  So there are actually additional positions there over and above what would have been there in 2005.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

In section 3.4.03. Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation, I am interested in line 07., if you can give us some detail on that.

MS BURKE: What line 07. reflects is what we have announced in our Budget this year to assist with what we refer to as twenty-first century learning for our students and that will allow us to be able to purchase computers for the schools - new computers.  We should be able to purchase over 5,000 computers for the schools this year and the interactive whiteboards.  Is that the right word for them?

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MS BURKE: Yes.  You are not allowed to call them SMART Boards; that is a brand name.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: The interactive whiteboards, we should be able to purchase, I think, over 2,000.  Once we do the bulk purchasing, we know we will get over 5,000 computers and over 2,000 interactive whiteboards for our schools.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

I will not ask any more line items, I will leave them.  I will ask a couple of questions.  One question is: High-speed Internet, does every school in the Province have that now?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  That is an easy answer.  That is good.

There have not been many issues in education this year, which is good, in terms of the House of Assembly and so on, but one of the issues earlier in the year was this issue of retired teachers.  Can you tell us how many retired teachers are teaching at this point in time?

MS BURKE: Do you mean over sixty-five days or under sixty-five days?

MR. DEAN: Well, retired in terms of being retired, then I guess the number of those who are over sixty-five and who might be under sixty-five.

MS BURKE: I will just explain the difference because it is easier for us to give a number on the ones who are working in excess of sixty-five days.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: When a school has to call in a substitute teacher there is a policy they need to follow, which is obviously to give the new graduates or people who are not on a pension the first opportunity; however, as they have their list of substitutes who are available, although they are expected to go through the list, they can call in retired teachers.  A retired teacher can work up to sixty-five days and continue to collect their pensions.  So, on any given day, we probably would not be able to give you a snapshot, say today, how many are in the schools because legally that is the way it is done and they can call them in. 

There are cases where there may be a young teacher in the system as a substitute who does not get called in, but it could be in the case of a physics teacher being off for a week or two and they are preparing for their public exams and you have a retired physics teacher in the community who can come on versus bringing on somebody who probably has never studied physics before.  Sometimes there is a justified case why they would call in a retired teacher when there would be somebody available who did not get called in, but it could be a speciality area.

What happens is once a retired teacher works their sixty-five days or they are going to get hired for a period that exceeds the sixty-five days, that needs to be approved.  For that, we have an approval process to give them permission, I guess, to work beyond the sixty-five days.  Marian, do you have the number of how many teachers we would have in the system now over the sixty-five days?  There are eighteen in the system now and that is out of 5,100 teachers.

MR. DEAN: Eighteen who are over sixty-five.

MS BURKE: Sixty-five days.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MS BURKE: In fairness to saying that as well, I was looking at a lot of the information because, obviously, it is an issue that we need to address.  Do we cut it off and say no one works over sixty-five days regardless, meaning that we will make a conscious decision that the students may not have access to the speciality they need, or do we say that we will extend it somehow?  So, we have to make that call.

When we look at the teachers who are working in excess of the sixty-five days and receiving a pension, in every case basically, it is either a guidance or a specialized type of position.  So, you will not find somebody who is doing primary-elementary education in any of our boards.  We do have a number of educational psychologists, guidance counsellors, I think there is a math teacher in Coastal Labrador.  They are the less than twenty positions that we struggle with and have to make that call.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  So it is being monitored, so to speak, and I guess the department is satisfied with those who are there, need to be there.  They are legit, so to speak.

MS BURKE: Yes, it is a call we could take the hard line and say no one does it and then we are making the call to say, okay, we know that the students in Coastal Labrador who are preparing for their math public exams do not have access to a math specialist or a math teacher, and that is the call that we have to make.

MR. DEAN: Yes, sure.

MS BURKE: Or they do not have access to guidance in our rural communities.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

I know in St. Anthony it is similar.  I think that French, for example, might be a difficult thing to find a substitute for.

MS BURKE: It is, and then you make the call.  Do you say, well somebody goes in and teaches French who has never studied French before in their lives, is that providing an adequate service to our students?

MR. DEAN: Yes.  The other piece of that, I guess minister, is the point the AG made in the report, the fact that the applications were approved by the Department of Education, not by the Minister of Finance.  Do you have any comment on that?

MS BURKE: My only comment on that is if there is a legal process or a policy that we have to follow, we will follow it, as simple as that.

The policy we were following came in either 2001 or 2002, in the Department of Education that basically had been followed since that time.  Once it was pointed out to us that it was not the appropriate policy, I have no problem following whatever is appropriate.  It is what it is, and no one is meaning to do anything we should not be doing.  If it needs to be routed through Finance, it will be routed through Finance.

MR. DEAN: Okay. 

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

3.3.03. Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, subhead 01, Salaries.  Could I have an explanation of the whole salary line there, the changes and what those salaries are related to, et cetera?

MS BURKE: Those salaries there would be related to the staff who ran the residence as opposed to teaching.  There would have been a number of staff in the residence.  There would have been two managers, four residential staff, and a nurse half-time, a school secretary, kitchen staff.  It would have been related to the running of the residence.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Why then in the revision in 2010-2011 did that line go up so much?

MS BURKE: Because at that point we had to pay severance.

MS MICHAEL: Right, of course.

MS BURKE: Right.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Thank you very much.

I am interested in knowing - I am sure you can provide this now, if you cannot I will be happy to take it after the fact.  Where are the schools where there are students who are deaf or hard of hearing?  I would like to know the services in each case.  How many people are offering the ASL interpretation?  Are students getting one on –

MS BURKE: I guess there are two ways to answer that.  One is we have had many students over the years who received services –

MS MICHAEL: I mean currently.

MS BURKE: We do, but they have never gone through the School for the Deaf.

MS MICHAEL: No.

MS BURKE: Are you talking about the ones who came out of the School for the Deaf or are you talking about all of our deaf and hard of hearing students in the Province?

MS MICHAEL: No, I would be interested in those who came out of the School for the Deaf.

MS BURKE: Okay.  There were ten students at the School for the Deaf, and we had four in residence.  The four in residence were high school students, three remained in Gonzaga.  They would come in from other communities and board in St. John's and go to Gonzaga.  One student stayed in Stephenville and is attending Stephenville high.  I know he has an ASL teacher with him.

Marian, you can probably comment on Gonzaga and the services.

MS FUSHELL: Gonzaga, the students from the deaf have a teacher from the deaf who supports their learning and provides the ASL instruction.  They have interpreters in the classroom with them, as the regular classroom teacher is providing the instruction in math or science or whichever subject they are doing.  The same process has been established, as the minister has said, in Stephenville High School.  These would be our students who were in residence. 

Some of the other students who were day students at the School for the Deaf were younger than high school; they would be junior high students.  They are attending MacDonald Drive Junior High and they also have a teacher of the deaf.  The teachers from the School for the Deaf are actually part of the staff now at Gonzaga and/or MacDonald Drive.  The one boy who was at the School for the Deaf, who was the youngest, is actually in Paradise.  He also has a teacher for the deaf.

MS MICHAEL: The students who require the ASL interpretation in the classroom, do they have ASL interpretation at other times during the school day, besides when they are in the classroom?

MS FUSHELL: They do.

MS MICHAEL: So at their lunch breaks, at all times?

MS FUSHELL: There are sufficient interpretation services throughout the school day.  We have also offered courses to many of the teachers, and the students have also availed of doing ASL instruction themselves to better enable them to communicate with the students who require ASL.

MS MICHAEL: Could we have an idea in numbers of the teachers who are dealing with them, and the students also, who have availed of the opportunity to learn ASL?

MS FUSHELL: I can provide you the specific number.  I know in the fall forty teachers did a course at the MUN Continuing Studies in ASL.  I can get the specific numbers of students who took the courses, and as well as teachers.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS BURKE: I would like to comment as well on a local level in Stephenville.  This is the first year the ASL teacher was in the high school, and that a course is being offered next year because of the interest.  It did not start off being offered this year, but because of the interest it is going to be offered next year to the students who want to learn.

MS MICHAEL: I have concerns, but I am not going to raise the concerns here.  I probably will meet with you, minister, ask for a meeting just to talk about some concerns that have been brought to me but I am not going to raise them in this context.

3.4.04. Early Childhood Learning, subhead 06, Purchased Services; the amount is going up by over $200,000.  Could we just have an explanation of that, please?

MS BURKE: Yes.  If you look at lines 05, 06 and 10, you will see there are increases in each of them.  I think we got lost with the child care initiative when we had our early learning initiatives as well.  When you look at those three lines in totality, what that represents is our early learning strategy for birth to three.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: What that represents there is the fact that we are going to initiate early learning strategies for families.  It will be family based as opposed to in a centre based because a lot of families at that age level have the children at home, or the fact that we feel families are the primary source to assist children in learning that early in life.  What that is about is we will be having early learning resources and supports available to all parents.  It will be basically resources available, like curriculum; there will be a curriculum developed, there will be resources available, there will be a list at different milestones for parents, that they should know what their child should be able to do, how they should be able to stimulate learning.  So, it is basically all about the family and about early learning and recognizing the milestones and what you should be doing with your child at different ages. 

That whole area there is going to be about training our staff, promoting early learning, doing data collection.  We are going to be evaluating the program to see how we are doing with it.  We will be developing the curriculum.  There will be on-line parent resources being developed as well.  We will be having parent resource kits done up for all the parents.  There will also be training for our own staff as we move this program forward.  We will be doing an assessment of our resource kits to make sure that we keep them updated and what we have there is current.  There will also be some early literacy programming that will be offered in the libraries in the Province, so it will be home-based but still there will be that community base as well.  There is also funding there for supports for inclusion to ensure that all children will be able to avail of these programs and these resources that we have available here.

MS MICHAEL: Will there be any involvement of the schools boards in this program?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: None at all?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: We do have some models of early childhood learning that are going on that come from community organizations like the program that has been housed in Macpherson school, for example, where school facilities are used and you have both the parent-child – Daybreak does the parent-child interaction.  Was any consideration given to any placement of programming in that kind of way?

MS BURKE: There is going to be some involvement and some engagement with our family resource centres.  Some are located in schools and some are not.  We will be working with public health, with our healthy baby clinics, family resource centres and our libraries, getting the information out.  We will be working with them.  It will not be directly through the school board, it will be directly through the community-based agencies because they are not all based in schools either.

MS MICHAEL: Is there any interaction with the school boards at all in terms of the curriculum et cetera, or is it all totally with the Department of Education?

MS BURKE: In the Department of Education.

MS MICHAEL: Is there any consultation going on with community groups such as Daybreak that have been doing this kind of work?

MS BURKE: We did a consultation across the Province before we developed the strategy, so we have consulted with all the agencies.  We went across the Province and met with any agencies, heard their ideas, their views, met with parents.  So we have done an extensive consultation.  They were all part of the process that fed into the system.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  All three lines there, the changes, all have to do with this new program?

MS BURKE: In totality, what I kind of explained there as opposed to breaking it down line by line is the new initiative.

MS MICHAEL: Right.  When is this initiative going to be fully in place?

MS BURKE: It will roll out over the year.  I am sure it will develop year by year until we have it where we need it to be, but we have done extensive consultation and research into this and have the funding, and we want to get it started.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Section 3.5.01, the Grants and Subsidies to Provincial Information and Library Resources, there is a big increase here.  What is that money needed for?  Is it repairs and maintenance?

MS BURKE: Under 10?

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS BURKE: That is accounted for by the salary increases and the step increases.  There were some adjustments in prior years for the salary and employee benefits that were not applied, so that is also applied there as well.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

So, all the money under Grants and Subsidies is not salaries, though?  I mean, that has to do with the whole (inaudible) -

MS BURKE: Oh yes, that is everything, but that –

MS MICHAEL: The increase –

MS BURKE: - is the increase, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great.  Thank you.

Section 4.1.01, there is a big jump here.  This is the Apprenticeship and Trades Certification, subhead 10. Grants and Subsidies, a major increase in the Grants and Subsidies here, what is this related to?

MS BURKE: That is related to the Apprentice Employment Rebate Program that we announced in the Budget as well.  We do not have the details to speak to that yet, but we do have the funding in place.  It is primarily to do a rebate program to get apprentices hired.

MS MICHAEL: Right.  I was glad to see that in the Budget.

How will that relate to the attempt to also increase the number of women apprentices, or will it?

MS BURKE: As we develop the parameters around the program, we will have to make sure that under-represented groups are able to avail of this program, and we are able to advance the groups that do not normally be able to compete.  So, that will be part of the program and, obviously, that is something I feel strongly about and would like to see advanced.

MS MICHAEL: Right. 

So, no idea yet how you are going to be able to make that happen, though?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: So, it will be something that you will be looking at?  Because there will have to be some proactive decisions taken there to make it happen.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Under 4.1.02.01. Salaries, there seems to be a significant increase there which, I think, would be more than just the annual increase and steps, or maybe I am wrong.

MS BURKE: There were three positions that were vacant for some time during the last fiscal year that relates to the revised and it is up because, obviously, the positions are filled now.  There was also a temporary position that was transferred from the apprenticeship division over there and there is also another temporary position related to the foreign qualifications recognition initiative.  There is federal funding attached to that.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, and that is indicated down below.

How are we doing with adult literacy in the Province?  Are there any significant statistical changes in adult literacy?

MR. BELBIN: We are in the process now of tracking and evaluating some of the programs that we have in place.  We hope that within the next little while to have a comprehensive document that shows us where the progress is occurring.

MS MICHAEL: So you are in the process of looking at that?

MR. BELBIN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.  Because, as we all know, it continues to be a major problem.  Just to give an idea of something very, very simple, which I think indicates literacy levels - now this also is a statement about the phone book itself – even for people to look up their MHA in the phone book, a lot of people cannot use the phone book to do that.  We assume or a lot of us assume, those of us who have had secondary, post-secondary and graduate education, oh yes, no logic, you go to the government pages, you look up the blue pages, you find your subheading, you go under it and you find it; but for someone who is not literate, they cannot do that.  They can read, at a certain level, but their literacy level does not allow them to even use a phone book.  So, we were trying to figure out the other day how much information, how many places in the phone book can we put my constituency phone number so that people can find the constituency phone number.

It was a really practical thing that just pointed out the issues around literacy levels: that even that is something that an awful lot of my constituents cannot do, easily find.  You say: Well, did you look for the phone number?  Well, I could not find it.  They could not find it because they do not know how to read a phone book. 

I am just putting that out as really practical ways in which people are not literate.  That is what literacy as we know it is all about, is being able to function in society, and an awful lot of people cannot.  It is just really interesting, the level at which we have to judge literacy.  I will be really interested in seeing what it is that you come up with as you continue doing the study of this status in the Province right now.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms Michael, change up?

MS MICHAEL: Turn it over, sure.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. DEAN: Okay, thank you.

I would like to go back to section 3.4.04. Early Childhood Learning.  Just a couple of questions, nothing specific on a line item, but certainly an interesting strategy, one that is good to see and see it developing across the Province.  I have a question, how will you connect to the family?  How do you make that work in the home?

MS BURKE: We will make the connection with the family the same way we would for the immunizations, through Public Health.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: All the families will be identified, and that will be the first contact of information, to be able to follow through.  There is a way the families are tracked, through the immunization.  We are going to use the same type of – and probably attached to those resources as well, as opposed to duplicating everything, setting up a separate system, but it will be along those lines.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  How will you track that in terms of a success rate or participation, to prevent kids coming to kindergarten who have not been involved?

MS BURKE: Basically, when someone goes into kindergarten there is an evaluation done for readiness in school.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MS BURKE: As we roll out this program and as it advances, eventually as they become school age we should be able to compare the results on that evaluation for the years prior to the implementation, and following the implementation we should also be able to track families who choose not to participate, because no one is going to mandate you to participate in this program.  It is going to be long-term assessment, because if we do it next year it has no impact.  The biggest impact we should see would be the ones who will come on from birth into the program.  That should have the biggest impact as opposed to a two-year old who comes into the program.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  So, if you want to participate you do, if you do not, you do not, kind of thing?

MS BURKE: Basically.

MR. DEAN: Yes, okay.

You mentioned the consultations.  What is the outcome of that?  Can you give us some idea about what you did on that program last year?  Was it the early childhood consultation process?

OFFICIAL: I am not quite sure what it is.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  I am a little off; that is not the one I was talking about. 

Actually, the full-day kindergarten one, sorry; give us an update on where we are with full-day kindergarten.

MS BURKE: We looked at full-day kindergarten as part of this process, and the implementation of full-day kindergarten at this time was excessive, based on the fact that we would have to hire around 120 new teachers.  We did not have the capacity in our schools to do it, so there would be a capital cost as well.  When we looked at how we could best address early learning we started with the zero to three, and we will advance it from there.  We are hoping to eventually bring on a program for the four-year olds and then at some point look at whether or not full-day kindergarten is feasible. 

We are at a point right now where we deal with declining student enrolment, but in essence we have many, many schools in our Province where we do not have enough capacity.  It would be quite an undertaking to double all the kindergarten classrooms in many of our schools.  We did not want to announce something that we were not able to deliver.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Go back to the line items again, 4.1.01.  It is another one of those, again in my analysis of the numbers and so on, crunching some of the budget numbers.  This is one of the departments or one of the – I call it departments – sections where we see substantial increases in salaries from four or five years ago.  I know you do not have those numbers in front of you and that is fine, but probably if you could give me some detail I would appreciate it. 

Line 4.1.01.01, we are $2 million.  The revised budget, we are going to $2.2 million in the Estimates.  If we go back a few short years ago that is around $700,000 or so.  I just wonder what would be taking place that would cause our Salaries to need to increase by that much, outside of the normal adjustments, obviously.

MS BURKE: A few years back we increased the number of people in this particular division.  We opened a new office in Clarenville that is staffed and in Grand Falls-Windsor as well.  We did build on this division, and we built on it because we felt we needed to do more work in this area.  We had an emphasis on the skilled trades.  We know there are some large scale developments coming in the Province, and we just felt we needed to do more work in this area.  That would account for the extra staff, and the offices in Clarenville and Grand Falls-Windsor.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  Can you give us an idea of what you are seeing in response to that, in terms of in the schools?

MS BURKE: Do you mean in the schools, or how many registered apprentices we have in the Province?

MR. DEAN: I guess numbers would be one thing, but outcomes of doing these expansions would be another thing.

MS BURKE: Bruce, do you have the statistics on our journeypersons Red Seal on how many people are registered?

MR. BELBIN: I do not think so.  We can get them, though.

MR. DEAN: Okay, all right.  Again, if you can give me some information on it, it is fine.

MS BURKE: We do have that information here.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. PIKE: We could get the numbers, but there has been a significant increase in the number of registered apprenticeship and the number of journeyperson completion rates.  I apologize for not having that number right in front of me or off the top of my head, because I have a number in my head but I do not want to repeat it and miscommunicate the wrong number.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. PIKE: Over the last number of years we have seen a dramatic increase in the registered apprentice and the completion rate.  So, we are above the national average in those two benchmarks in our increase rate.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  I would like to see those numbers if you could get them for me at some point.  Just e-mail them or whatever, that is fine.  I would just be curious to see what the outcome has been.  We have made the investment, it would be nice to see where it is.

The other one in 4.1.02 is kind of a similar analysis of my own.  If I go back to a few years ago, I know the amount to be voted was around $43,000 I believe, if I am not mistaken.  Obviously, it was not much on the radar at that point in time.  This year it is $2.3 million, and the salary piece again, there was no salary piece.  I am not sure where it came on stream exactly, but I am sure you would know.  It is a million dollar piece in this budget going forward.

MS BURKE: That would have been a result of that division being developed within the department.  There may have been some new positions but it would have been putting more emphasis on that and reprofiling staff into that particular division.  That would account for the salary differences.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  I am not sure if Lorraine spoke to that or not, I think you might have commented around something there.  Again, give us a feel for what the payback on having that is.  How are we measuring it in terms of – are our literacy rates improving?

MR. PIKE: Every few years they will do an assessment.  We are part of a national study that does assess literacy in Newfoundland and Labrador.  The councils and ministers in the Atlantic Provinces recognize the challenge around literacy rates in the Atlantic regions.  If you follow it, there has been a considerable emphasis on recognizing the challenges around that.  We will get an update as the new study gets implemented again.  We will get a new figure on where we are.  I am not sure when the next year is that this study will be implemented.

MS BURKE: I do not even agree with the study, but anyway.  I just feel that sometimes the skills that they test in urban centres may not necessarily be a reflection.  I will give a good example. 

The last time it came out from the 2003 report it said people in our Province did not know how to read maps.  Well people in our Province do not read maps because there is one road in and out usually and we do not call it by the route number.  They will ask: How do you get from the Southern Shore up to St. John's?  No one calls that route whatever number it is.  They say here is the road and you go that way, but if you are in Toronto and you have to get from one place to another on a subway you need to be able to read a map.  Some of the skills I thought were not necessarily reflective of our own skills within the Province.  We will participate in this test but I do not know if it is a true examination of our own literacy skills.  There are other examples as well, but I just found it was not necessarily geared to what would be appropriate for us.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

In terms of the post-secondary piece, are there plans to have all of our schools provincially and nationally accredited?

MS BURKE: Our post-secondary schools?

MR. DEAN: Yes.  Our trade schools basically, our colleges.

MS BURKE: Yes, our colleges would be accredited.

MR. DEAN: Are they all nationally accredited?

MS BURKE: Well, if you did a trade, say if you did plumbing or electrical or pipefitting, they would come out of our schools, start the apprenticeship program and get the Red Seal, which is a national recognition, yes. 

MR. DEAN: Yes, okay.  All the trades offer the Red Seal, is that correct?

MS BURKE: Yes.

OFFICIAL: Red Seal trades.

MS BURKE: Yes.  Not every trade –

MR. DEAN: No, I understand that.

MS BURKE: - becomes a journeyperson into a Red Seal.

MR. DEAN: Okay, but any trade that is Red Seal categorized we have it in the Province, I guess, is what I am saying.

MS BURKE: None of our programs in the skilled trades that would require a Red Seal to say you are a qualified journeyperson – instead of putting it in the negative, put it in the positive.  All of our programs that would otherwise follow the Red Seal program do.  We do not have any electricians or pipefitters or steamfitters who come out with a diploma but cannot carry on and get their national recognition at the end of the program.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  Yes, I guess that is what I was asking.

MS BURKE: Yes.  We do that, yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

We saw the tuition freeze again this year, which is good.  Do you see that staying around?  I know we are budgeting year to year, so it might be a bit of a difficult question to answer.

MS BURKE: Yes, you are going to have to read the Blue Book on that one.  That is not for me to say here today.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  Do you have a copy available yet?

MS BURKE: Not yet, no.  It is not written yet.

MR. DEAN: All right, okay.

Have we done any studies?  Have we seen the impact of the tuition freezes?

MS BURKE: We have.  One thing that is significant in Newfoundland and Labrador in our public post-secondary institutions is the fact that we have a declining student enrolment.  We have less and less students every year to go into our post-secondary institutions, but we have not seen a declining enrolment.  That says a couple of things.  One is that we probably have students who did not just graduate from university who are returning to school, and we also have a significant increase in the number of students from other provinces.  In particular Nova Scotia, but it is starting to spread out to other provinces as well. 

Now, I think a lot of it is probably people who are connected to the Province who see this as a very viable alternative for education, and accessible and affordable, and come back.  We also have people who have no connection to the Province who come here.  We are picking up students from other provinces, as well as international students, and that is really keeping our student population where it needs to be at the university, which is fabulous.  When you look at the number of students we have year over year, there is a decrease coming out of high school, and the fact that that has not then been reflected in our post-secondary institutions is obviously quite indicative of the quality of the education as well.  I do not think people are coming here just because it costs less.  I think part of it has to be that they walk out of our institutions with a very high-quality education, because I do not think anybody is going to let their education suffer because of that.  I think Memorial competes quite well on an international level with their degrees, as does the college.

MR. DEAN: Sure, no doubt.  I certainly would feel the same way, but I guess if low tuition is the drawing card - because obviously if university A and MUN is compatible in terms of offerings, then the tuition is the one that brings them.  Are they staying?

MS BURKE: Do we have stats on that?

MR. DEAN: In the Province, I mean.

MS BURKE: Some are.  A lot of it right now that I am going to speak about is anecdotal versus, but we can - is there a statistic on how many stay in the Province?  It is fairly high.

MR. PIKE: You mean after graduation?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: I am not sure we have stats on that.

MS BURKE: There is a number, though, of how many graduates from our post-secondary stay in the Province and it is probably close to 80 per cent I think. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: Is that stat available? 

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible) 78 per cent.

MS BURKE: Seventy-eight percent stay in the Province. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MS BURKE: I have had the opportunity, as Minister of Education - I met with a group of students from Nova Scotia because I just wanted to say: Well, why are you here?  I do not want to hear from the administration of the university.  Tell me, why are you here?  How is your experience and where do we go from here? 

Most of them came to Memorial because they knew somebody who was here, who spoke very positively of it back in their high schools or in their community.  They were all very satisfied with their experience of being here, and a high number just wanted to live here, just enjoy being here.  I think that may be reflective in many cities.  People who go to school at the University of Toronto or McGill or Dalhousie, they get established and get connections within the city because they are living there for four or five years and want to stay.  I do not think that was any different from what I saw from the students from Nova Scotia.  That was a number of years ago I did that and they are still around.  You see them and they are working now, they are graduated. 

The other thing that is interesting is that most of the student leaders right now - I just did a round table and I know some of the students are changing - are not from Newfoundland and Labrador.  That is a real endorsement, too.  Not just are they here, but they are taking on leadership positions.  They are obviously very well respected to be able to move into those positions.  There is a real integration happening as well, that it is not just here is our Nova Scotia group and here is our group from Newfoundland and Labrador.  There were others there from Ontario, student leaders as well.  I thought that was very reassuring, that we do not have an environment set up where everybody comes into their little group.  It just showed me that they are here and we are just becoming one big integrated university student population which is great. 

MR. DEAN: Good.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you.

Ms Michael. 

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Section 4.1.03. Institutional Services, “Appropriations provide for direct support to Memorial University and College of the North Atlantic and responsibility for monitoring private training institutions.”  I think my question is more some explanation of what that is all about and what that means.

MS BURKE: Obviously, we provide support to the university and the college because of the relationship we have with them.  We work together, whether it is through funding or capital initiatives or whatever.  That one is I think pretty straightforward. 

With the private institutions, we have a role where we have to accredit their programs.  We have a monitoring or an evaluation system in place for any new programs that may come on or any of the existing programs, that they meet certain standards.  So there is a very close relationship between the department and the private institutions for that monitoring.  You just cannot open a college and say you are going to offer certain programs, there is a process you have to go through and that becomes an ongoing process. 

MS MICHAEL: Right.  The direct support to Memorial and the College of the North Atlantic, what does that mean?  Where is the direct support?  Are those salaries all the salaries for people inside the department?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: They are.  Okay, so this is just your interaction with the university and the college and the private institutions?

MS BURKE: A lot of that would be the people in the field with the private institutions.

MS MICHAEL: Right, okay.  I think the heading – it is just not clear in the explanation of what exactly it means, so I wanted to get some clarity.  It just was not clear to me.  Thank you so much. 

The rest of it is pretty straightforward for me.  Under 4.3.02. Physical Plant and Equipment for the College of the North Atlantic, under subhead 10. Grants and Subsidies, the money has gone down significantly.  I am guessing there was a lot of work being done on the main campus here externally, et cetera.  Is that the reason why? 

MS BURKE: No, Lab West is completed -

MS MICHAEL: Oh, Lab West is completed.

MS BURKE:  - or in the final stages.  That accounts for the big difference there.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great; I was wondering about that.  It has been good to see, though, the work that is being done on the physical plant here.

MS BURKE: Yes, that is a significant amount of work as well but the bulk of that money there was Lab West.

MS MICHAEL: Was the Labrador West; okay, thank you.

Under 4.4.01. Administration, “Appropriations provide for the administration of the needs-based Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Student Loans Program…”  Subhead 10., Grants and Subsidies, have gone down significantly from what the budget was in 2010-2011.  It was revised downwards and is staying down, so what was that about?

MS COLE: The funding that was in there in the 2010-2011 budget was for transition grants.  The Canada Millennium Scholarships were ending and the federal government is providing funding for three years for transition grants for people who were in post-secondary institutions on those scholarships and had not completed their program.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS COLE: The $1 million was for the people who were still in the system in 2010-2011.  We found that the actual requirement was down considerably because a lot of those students are graduating or getting close to the end.  In 2011-2012, it is expected to be a little bit again.  The federal revenue ties in with that also.  It is 100 per cent federal funded. 

MS MICHAEL: I can see the $1 million there in the revenue from the 2010-2011 budget to now.  Thank you very much. 

Finally, under heading 4.4.03 - and this is subhead 10; of course, this is all Grants and Subsidies - this is the administration of the student loan portfolio.  In 2010-2011, you budgeted $17.5 million, almost $8.9 million was spent, and this year back up to $30.6 million, just some explanation of all of that variance, please. 

MS BURKE: When we look at the revised in 2010, that is in relation to the fact that there has been a higher than anticipated repayment of student loans.  That accounts for that but when you get to the budget for this year there is an increase in the budget because we want to increase the principle debt repayment so we want to be able to put some money back down.  The debt agreement is renegotiated in September, so we have $19 million set aside for that.  When we go to negotiate that, we will put that down on the principle. 

Then there are some areas there as well.  There is a decrease in the loan disbursements because there has been a lower uptake in the student loan program as well.  Basically, the increase is there so when we do the renegotiation, we put the money down on the principle. 

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that makes sense. 

I think they are basically all of the questions I have, except just a general question under Training Programs.  I am sure you do have the latest statistics on the number of women, especially in the skilled trades that have been traditionally male dominated.  Also, has the apprentice number gone up this year?

MS BURKE: We will have some numbers on that, some stats, but we are not where we need to be with it yet.  The other thing - and this is just a general comment as well - I have asked at the schools that offer skilled trades have to have 50-50 enrolment in the program.  I asked for that a number of years back, not just when I came into the department this year.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: It is incumbent upon the principals and our boards to have some way to encourage our female students to do it, whether they close it off and just have it for females so there is a comfort level within that shop, that they do not feel uncomfortable there, they do not feel that they are unwelcome.

If we are going to have skilled trades in the schools and we fit that into our bigger picture in the Province for under-represented groups and having females go into the college system, be able to have apprenticeship positions, become our journeypersons, and participate in our labour force, everything has to stack together.  There is no benefit for us to have skilled trades in the K-12 system for the boys and then expect that something is going to happen at the college level, the apprenticeship level, or something other than that, that is all of a sudden going to introduce the females into the system.

So the numbers are not where they need to be.  I am quite okay saying that.  In order for us to have a true impact, we have to back this right up to when they start the option to do a skilled trade course in Grade 10.  If we do not have every piece of the puzzle fitted together, it is not going to happen.  We are not going to get a magic number at the end of the day.

I have publicly said and I have said within the department that it is incumbent upon the schools.  As far as I am concerned, if they want to keep the skilled trades, it has to fit the bigger picture of the Province.  Otherwise, for us to advance that in the K-12 system to attract only boys, they are attracted anyway.  We do not need to spend millions and millions to introduce skilled trades in K-12.  We had those numbers before we brought it in.

There is an emphasis going on the schools and they will be monitored.  If they want to keep the programs and have the resources there, they have to fit into the bigger picture of the Province as well.

MS MICHAEL: What measures are the school boards putting in place or what are your ideas about how you can make that happen though?

MS BURKE: I requested that when I was there before.  I have come back to the department.  I have asked for that as well.  I anticipate they will come back.  September is coming on and they are getting ready to attract people into the skilled trades.  I have given direction on it.  I anticipate I will see the results, and they will come back with their programs or their plans.

Like I said, I would not even be adverse if they shut it down to boys for a year or two and say that it is only females, to get that comfort level that they are there, the other students see it, and it develops.  I have not seen that plan.

My emphasis is it has to be 50-50.  If you want this program and you want to fit into the bigger picture, you have to come on board and you have to understand what we are trying to accomplish.

MS MICHAEL: Right.  There has to be a way of doing it.  I am like you, I do not know which way one should say you go with it, but you would almost like to say that every, single student should do at least one course; male or female, everybody do one course.

MS BURKE: I do not disagree with that, but what I am concerned about is the comfort level of the female students in that particular classroom.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MS BURKE: I want to make sure we just do not talk the talk, that when they walk through those doors and they have to learn how to operate the machinery, that they are not left feeling vulnerable or uncomfortable or unable to do anything because their male counterpart snickers or laughs or has more experience.  I want to make sure the schools and the teachers are very aware of that dynamic, and the day that female student walks into that classroom she feels empowered and she feels that she is there to learn.

I am really concerned that we can advance the concept but if the principals and the school boards do not have a good hands on as to that environment and how welcoming that is, all the promotion we do will yield no results.  There is a whole combination that has to happen, but the principals of these schools have to make sure that is a welcoming environment for the female students.

MS MICHAEL: Right.  We do have examples of where we do separate boys and girls.  In high school in particular, not so much in elementary or primary, but in sports we have boy's teams and girl's teams.  Now I know in primer school the kids all run together and do that, but once you start moving up the scale that is not the case.

I am totally with you, with my background as well, the awareness that it has to be a comfortable place for the girls is really, really – it is urgent that that be so.

MS BURKE: I also look at it, if status quo is not working, I am not defending it.

MS MICHAEL: No, that is right.

MS BURKE: If we set up something and it is not yielding results, I am not going to try to defend it.  I am going to say let's change it until we get the results we need.

MS MICHAEL: Right, yes.  It even happens in college, the thing of women not feeling comfortable because guys can act like idiots because there is a woman in the class.  I have had that shared with me; so all the more so in high school.

MS BURKE: Well, a number of years ago when I first went into education I visited a particular college campus.  They had a very successful program in the skilled trades, and there were no females in the class.  I asked, what were your results with females?  Basically, they had not had a lot of success and had a few females who joined but quit in recent years, but no one was finishing the program.  As I went through the instructor's office, it was in the back of the workshop, there was a calendar there that was not very welcoming to women.  I thought, there you go. 

MS MICHAEL: That's right.

MS BURKE: You come down and you are treated as this object and you are going to talk to the instructor about how you may feel uncomfortable or how you are being treated by your male counterparts and look for that leadership.  It was a big lesson as to sometimes we take a lot for granted, that we have advanced in many areas but again, it goes back to my comment.  We can talk the talk but if it is not embraced right at ground level and initiatives put in place to ensure that that environment is indeed welcoming, not just the talk at the upper levels but that the people who offer the programs and who are in the shop and who supervise these shops understand it and embrace that concept, we are not going to move ahead.  That is why I will go back to the K to 12 systems.  That has to be embraced at the school level, at the teacher level, at the principal level and at the board level.  They have to be able to go in and when they see there is something happening that is not welcoming or why they have zero females in their programs, they have to address it.

MS MICHAEL: One of the things that might help (inaudible).  When women in resource development started the whole thing with the OTT and having the program in the colleges et cetera, and I think they still do it, it was recognized in order to get to what you are talking about gender sensitivity training is needed.  I think principals, vice-principals, teachers, and more than that, the students themselves, some gender sensitivity training might be the thing that will help. 

MS BURKE: Yes.  I will just make this final statement, we need to follow the statistics on this and the results year by year and where there are problems we have to dig in and address it.  I am just not into spending millions of dollars on a program that does not yield the results that we need as a Province.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. DEAN: Just a couple of things left for me, Minister.  One, I would like to have a little discussion on the status and negotiations in Qatar, with the college in terms of the new comprehensive agreement. 

MS BURKE: We extended the agreement a year ago for an additional year, and the contract we are under right now expires in 2013.  We have terms and conditions, I guess at this point renegotiated but not yet ratified.  I guess we are still in a process of having - until we sign a contract there is no finality to the situation.  We have moved through a negotiating team and we will look at the terms and conditions and if everything is fine we will renew.  That is not until 2013.  There is no new contract right now.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  Is there is a deadline for negotiations?  When is the point when you say this probably will not renew or will renew?  Is there a date there? 

MS BURKE: I guess at some point we would either make an announcement that we have come to an agreement or not, but we are still two years out from where we need to be and we extended it for one year. 

In the meantime, things are positive.  I do not want to give the impression we are not moving ahead and we are not working well together.  Anything can happen.  We do not have to renew it or we do not have to go into a new contract, but as far as our negotiations and being able to work together and all of that, that is fine.  That is moving ahead. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.  We have had some dialogue about the college, and it has not always been positive to be honest.  It was around the workplace assessment that took place there.  When was that, a year ago or about then?  Obviously, there are some workplace issues there.  The commitment was basically to present an unedited copy of the assessment, which did not happen and the assessment was edited.  That was what people got, and I guess there was a stir internally about that. 

MS BURKE: The management staff did receive a copy of the final report as written. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.  My understanding is that they did not.  When we say management staff, my understanding is whoever took place in the workplace assessment, all of the individuals, were to receive a copy of the unedited report.  That, I was told, did not happen.  So, you are saying it did happen, is that correct? 

MR. PIKE: Just to clarify the question asked; the management staff were the main members who participated in that assessment. 

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: They were presented the final version of the document, as well as an early draft of the document that would have minor redactions for anyone's personal information, but they did receive that version that you are talking about.  It was presented to them, the version that you are talking about, but that would have been a draft version of the document. 

MR. DEAN: Okay.  It was a twenty-four page report that got reduced to twelve, as I understand it to be.  I am not sure what –

MR. PIKE: The draft version of the document, I guess, to reiterate – and I do not know the page count on the documents – was presented to the management staff with just redacted versions that would have revealed personal information.  They would receive the final version of the document and then they received, at a later date, the presentation on the draft version of the document that only removed the redacted version.  It would not have had pages removed; it would have had references to individual people.

MR. DEAN: Statements, okay.

MR. PIKE: That would have been done by the College of the North Atlantic staff in Qatar.

MR. DEAN: Yes, okay.

The other issue, one of the things that the NLTA spoke against or about in this particular budget, was relating to the department's inclusion policy.  How many schools are now a part of the inclusion policy? 

MS BURKE: Yes, I will speak to that, Marian, and you can add to it.  All our schools in Newfoundland and Labrador – inclusion is not a new concept.  Inclusion is where, we feel, the policy is that all students have a right to be with their peer group.  We have been practising inclusion in Newfoundland and Labrador for a long time.  There was obviously a suggestion years ago where if a student had some type of developmental delay or disability, that they should be taken away from their peer group and taught separately.  We feel strongly that all students have a right to be within their peer group and to be within the classroom. 

We have done extensive work on inclusion.  In fairness, when teachers are qualified to teach, I would not think for a second they would come out and feel that they are going to be in a classroom where everyone is the same, there is a cookie-cutter approach that every student learns the same and at the same level and whatever.  So we have looked at the inclusive classroom for quite a while. 

We are presently in a pilot where we are doing more extensive professional development with our teachers.  We have thirty schools in the first year, sixty-five in the second, and we will have another thirty done.  Some schools are moving ahead without being part of the pilot because they feel so strongly about inclusion. 

One thing that I want to note is sometimes we hear so much negativity about inclusion and that the teachers do not feel they can include the students in how they are teaching or whatever.  Based on all this negativity, it was only yesterday I received a letter from a parent here in the Province who said that she has a son who is either in Grade 1 or Grade 2 right now who is autistic; he was diagnosed when he was three.  There was so much negativity around education and what to expect that she talked about when she registered him for school, how upset she was and how she could not make eye contact with other parents, how she had to go in and meet with the principal and she felt that he was doomed because of his diagnosis and the fact that our education system was lacking so much.  She said that once she got involved in the system she realized that the principal was very well qualified and understanding and sensitive to their needs, and teachers understood the concept of inclusive education, being able to work with his needs.  There is a special services teacher as well as the homeroom teacher and the support she got.  She just wrote to say that sometimes it was the negativity where she lost a couple of years of being optimistic about her son's future because she anticipated there would be no supports there available for her but how he has advanced through the system.

When you look at that and look at some of the schools, look at the teachers and look at that fact that they understand the needs of the children and that they do have supports available, whether it is through professional development or special services teachers, that they can work with children who have some form of a developmental delay or disability or whatever.

There is a lot going on in the schools.  I also understand there are a lot of needs.  Parents, right now, and rightly so, demand a very high quality education for their child regardless of their learning abilities or their needs or their level at any particular time, and we need to be able to respond and provide a high quality level of education for every single student in our system.

We do not have inclusion 100 per cent in every school at all times.  We still have scenarios and situations, and probably always will, where some students do have to come out of the regular classroom for special services based on their needs or whatever.  As much as we are moving towards and we are having an inclusive education system, I do acknowledge that there are times when students have to be removed from the classroom, but we will continue to make sure that all of our students are part of their peer groups and part of the classrooms and that we look after their needs, as best we can, from an educational perspective.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

When the parents of children with special needs have to justify the need for having the child pulled out, so to speak, that is one of the issues that we have been debating for some time. What is the process in that happening?

MS BURKE: The process of whether a child stays in the classroom or gets removed?

MR. DEAN: Yes, being a part of the pulled out program, I guess, instead of staying in the classroom.

MS BURKE: There is a comprehensive assessment done and there is an ISSP done that would involve all of the professionals who are involved with the child.  We also have what is known as Pathways to learning so that if the mainstream curriculum needs to be modified, then we go from Pathways 1, 2, 3 and 4, with Pathway1 being very slight modifications and Pathway 4 probably being the most major modifications.  So there would be some emphasis on whether or not there could be accommodations made in the regular classroom to accommodate a child.  If they get to a point where the professionals agree there are no accommodations available that are going to assist a child for this subject in this particular environment, then there would be an analysis done to see if they should come out of the classroom.

MR. DEAN: Is the goal 100 per cent all the time?

MS BURKE: We cannot reach 100 per cent all the time.  That would be laudable, that no student ever has to come away from their peer group for anything, but that cannot be reached.

MR. DEAN: Okay.  I think that is it for me actually.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Anything further from the Committee?

If the Clerk could call the heading?

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 4.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.5.01 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.5.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Before we adjourn, I ask the Committee members if they could reference minutes from the Department of Health and Community Services Estimates for May 10, and ask for a motion to adopt.

MR. RIDGLEY: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Ridgley.

Thank you.

A seconder?

MS MICHAEL: So moved.

CHAIR: Ms Michael. 

Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you to the Committee for your work here this morning.  As well, Minister, to you and your staff, thank you very much for your participation this morning.

I remind the Committee that the next Social Services Estimates Committee is Tuesday, May 17, when we will hear Human Resources, Labour and Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

CHAIR: I am sorry, yes, Justice, Monday, May 16.

MS BURKE: I will mention it in the House anyway.

CHAIR: Thank you.

With that, can I have a motion to adjourn?

MS MICHAEL: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Certainly, yes, sorry, go right ahead.

MS MICHAEL: I just want to thank the minister and staff for this morning's session.  Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Motion to adjourn?

MR. CORNECT: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Cornect.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.