Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mr. Lane, MHA for Mount Pearl South, substitutes for Mr. Crummell, MHA for St. John's West, and for Mr. Little, MHA for Bonavista South, for a portion of the meeting.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): I call for a nomination for Chair.

MR. LITTLE: (Inaudible).

CLERK: Okay. It is moved by Mr. Little, and we do not need a seconder, so Mr. Littlejohn is elected by acclamation.

Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you doing it by nomination?

CLERK: Yes.

MR. LITTLE: I nominate the hon. Member for Port de Grave.

CLERK: Are there any other nominations? Any other nominations? Any other nominations?

Mr. Littlejohn is acclaimed Chairman.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Before we begin and turn it over to the minister for comments, just some procedural items.

I read the last Estimates Report, and in the last Estimates Report the minister is given fifteen minutes, if he wishes, to comment and bring opening remarks. Minister, before you start your remarks I am going to ask you to introduce your staff at that time. If you would do that, sir, or they can introduce themselves.

Just some procedural items for the Committee; in the last report, basically what happened was that the first respondent, being the Opposition Party – and I guess Mr. Joyce, Eddie, you will do that this morning – was given fifteen minutes to respond, and then we rotated ten and ten.

Is that okay with the Committee?

AN. HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay, we are good. If we are good with that, I will give leave to the minister –

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just as a point of procedure, I would like to get something straightened away as regards to the process that we will be going through this morning, and I guess for the other committees that are going to be meeting over the next couple of weeks.

It is my understanding from the hon. Member for Grand Bank in consultations that we had, what we will be doing is that even though, for example, the Social Services Committee is meeting now and Gerry Rogers is our appointment to the Social Services Committee, that we would be doing the question asking as per our critic areas. So, we will still be sticking to that process, yes?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: You are welcome. Thank you, George.

Just before I go to the minister; Minister, I will let our MHAs introduce themselves. I will start on my far right.

Mr. Little.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA, Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, MHA, District of Port au Port.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MS ROGERS: Gerry Rogers, MHA, St. John's Centre.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East.

MR. LANE: Paul Lane, MHA for Mount Pearl South.

CHAIR: We need to elect a Vice-Chair, the Clerk informs me.

Can we have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

MR. JOYCE: What, no nominator?

CHAIR: No. I am assuming that it comes from the Opposition, traditionally, Eddie. I would assume that someone needs to nominate somebody from the Opposition to be Vice-Chair.

That is the normal procedure, Elizabeth?

CLERK: Yes.

CHAIR: Yes.

Can I have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

Gerry.

MS ROGERS: I nominate Eddie.

CHAIR: Eddie Joyce is nominated as Vice-Chair.

Do we have any other nominations for Vice-Chair – going once? Are there any other nominations for Vice-Chair – twice? Are there any other nominations for Vice-Chair, for the third and final time?

Hearing no further nominations, Mr. Eddie Joyce is the Vice-Chair of the Social Services Committee. Congratulations Eddie.

Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Good morning, everyone.

It is a pleasure to be here. I am sorry for the delay in regard to the start, but before I have my opening remarks I would like for my staff to introduce themselves, just in case somebody does not who is who.

Starting to my immediate left.

MS BARNES: Good morning, I am Sandra Barnes. I am the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs.

MR. SAMSON: Good morning, I am Mike Samson. I am the Chief Executive Officer and Deputy Minister responsible for Fire and Emergency Services.

MR. MERCER: Good morning. Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Engineering and Land Use Planning, and Waste Management.

MR. JONES: Good morning. Scott Jones, Departmental Comptroller.

MS MCCORMACK: Good morning, I am Marilyn McCormack. I am the Assistant Deputy Minister of Fire and Emergency Services.

MR. SMITH: Good morning, Paul Smith, Assistant Deputy Minister, Municipal Support.

MR. HEALEY: Good morning, Rick Healey, ADM, Employment Support.

MS MUNDON: Good morning, I am Tansy Mundon, Director of Communications.

MS GULLAGE: Good morning, Cheryl Gullage, Public Relations, Fire and Emergency Services.

MR. O'BRIEN: Again, good morning everyone. I am happy to be here. I will just make a few opening remarks. Hopefully, I will not take up fifteen minutes, but I have been known to get entrenched and go beyond the allotted time and have to be called by the Chair.

I firmly believe over the last number of years that we have developed a very strong relationship between government and municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. At various times that has been demonstrated in public by mayors stating that very fact. I take great pride in that, in regard to our relationship, because I see that we have to have a strong relationship and a partnership between the two levels of government in our Province.

We have clearly demonstrated to municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador over the last number of years our commitment in regard to their viability and sustainability with our infrastructure commitments. We have demonstrated that over the past number of years, certainly in our surplus years. Our level of funding remains relatively strong, even though we find ourselves in a deficit position in this particular year. In saying that, even though we demonstrated it in our surplus years, we are demonstrating it once again in our deficit years, and these are real deficits.

We always encourage collaboration, sharing of services and regionalization, if at all possible, with the municipalities because we have to have economies of scale. We have to get the bang for our dollar. There is only one taxpayer in Newfoundland and Labrador. There are only a number of revenue streams in the Consolidated Revenue Fund. We have to maximize our investments in each and every department, especially when we have a department such as Municipal Affairs that has the sole responsibility of supporting our municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We find ourselves in a deficit position this year, and it is a real deficit. I would like to say we have predicted deficits in the past that are based on the volatile market, the market of oil and oil pricing. This time around we have two real things that contribute to that deficit, and those are the ending of the Atlantic Accord, which takes about $503 million or $500-and-something million out of revenue stream; and the other is we have two FPSOs off the wellheads, which will decrease our production rates. Thus, we have less oil to sell. Even though we have a volatile pricing regime in regard to oil prices globally, these two things will contribute significantly to the deficit position we are predicting this year.

I would also like to say all levels of government have the responsibility to budget and to create revenue streams to provide the services they want to provide to the people who elected them in their municipalities, the provincial government, or the federal, for whatever level of government you are. They have that responsibility, no different than us, because the bottom of line of it is there is only one taxpayer, and that is the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Whoever taxes them, it is just out of one source. We all have to keep that in mind.

For the past year, we have been working through a complex process of developing a new MOG. We have, and I have as the minister responsible, committed to consult with MNL and municipalities in general in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to be on record, too, and at various times I have mentioned this in regard to my speaking engagements and any interaction that I have had with municipalities, mayors, councils, or MNL itself, that I am not interested in developing something that is not affordable, not interested in something that is not sustainable to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have to have something that is transparent, that people can understand, and that is the process that we will go through over the next little while, and hopefully we will come to a conclusion with the MOG formula sometime in this fiscal year.

That is my commitment to MNL and that is my challenge and my need that I have expressed to MNL that we need to get this done. With that, last year you see that we invested $4.6 million in the MOGs – my base funding is $17.8 million, so we invested $4.6 million on top of the $17.8 million. I am happy to say that we are going to maintain that until we get the MOG formula redeveloped and a new one in place that is affordable and sustainable to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

As well, I mentioned that even though we find ourselves in a deficit position that we are investing heavily in infrastructure, which we found ourselves in 2003 in a huge deficit when it came to infrastructure investments across all our municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. We are investing $130 million over two years, which will see significant improvement in the lives of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, through such investments in water, sewage treatment, whatever it may be.

I must also mention that at various times now over the last couple of years we have had $700 million worth of ask in regard to my commitment authority. So with $130 million, we have to be very strategic in regard to our investments, and we have to have our core mandate as water and waste water. So, we will continue the process in supporting our municipalities, our municipalities are working in partnership with ourselves, and we see that we have made significant investments over the last number of years.

I would also like to mention at this particular time that since 2008, Municipal Affairs has invested over $500 million in municipalities across Newfoundland and Labrador in various projects, be it small, or be it large. So, that is a significant amount of dollars. In regard to the past history of government and past governments, that is a huge investment. We will continue that and we will continue to strive towards making our municipalities sustainable in the future.

Provincial waste management: We have made significant progress over the last number of years. At the end of the fiscal year 2012-2013, we would have invested $147.2 million into solid waste management. We have seen significant strides on the Eastern waste management. We have seen significant strides with the opening of our new facility in Norris Arm. Out of that $147.2 million, $84.7 million of that is provincial dollars, and $62.5 million of that is from the gas tax.

You will see, at the end of that fiscal year, two-thirds of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, the population of Newfoundland and Labrador, being able to dispose of their waste in lined landfills, which is the only acceptable disposal process now in our environment. At the end of that particular fiscal year 2012-2013, about 50 per cent of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will be able to recycle. I think that is very significant when it comes to protecting our environment, which is incumbent on each and every one of us as the citizens of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

From the perspective of our Community Enhancement Program, we have invested heavily. I believe it was a little over $9 million last year, which provides short-term employment to people who are just short, in regard to their hours, for EI eligibility. As well, we invest wisely from the provincial point of view in projects that would have lasting effects on the particular communities and the particular groups that apply for those types of programs.

It is a very worthwhile program. Most of the dollars go out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador where employment is not as achievable as it is in St. John's, Gander, or Clarenville. We invest there regardless of where it is to, just as long as it is a good project that will have two effects: It will employ people and will have a significant lasting effect on the particular community that it is in.

Fire and Emergency Services: We have invested heavily over the last couple of years. I believe that last year we invested $3.9 million in regard to vehicle purchases; the year previous to that, we had $2.5 million. We have a $1.7 million base. This year, we are going back to the $1.7 million base. That is duly because of the deficit position that we find ourselves in. Plus, we have to do a fair bit of work there too. We have over 300 fire departments in Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a challenge in regard to the human resource side, in regard to volunteers, smaller communities not having enough people to really provide a good service.

When it comes to the fire departments we want to see regionalization, collaboration and partnership between them as well. This will give us time, a break to have a good look in that regard and work with our fire departments to enable them to be able to provide the much-needed critical service they provide to the people they have volunteered to provide that service to.

With that, those are my opening remarks. I just wanted to say a couple of things. I will be open for any questions in regard to the estimates of my budget for this fiscal year.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: The first subhead is 1.1.01.

Do I have a motion to have that carried, please?

Moved by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

Just one second, George. We need to get through this procedure. Were you contra-minded, George, or not?

MR. MURPHY: No, I was going to ask a question about the line items.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: We can open debate, and I turn the floor over to Mr. Joyce. You have your fifteen minutes, sir.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister.

Thank you to all of the staff for showing up today and answering some of the questions.

There is one thing, Minister, in the Budget documents that was left out this year. It is the first time, I think, in about forty years. It is the number of employees.

Do you have the number of employees that are in your department? In the Budget it is the first year that it was not. Can someone undertake –

MS BARNES: In Municipal Affairs, we have typically in the area of 116, sometimes ranging to 130 employees that are in the department proper.

One thing you should be aware of there, we house the shared service unit for financial management for five departments and two agencies. Approximately eighteen employees are in that unit. The rest are working in Engineering and Land Use Planning, Municipal Support, or Employment Support.

Mike can speak to Fire and Emergency Services.

CHAIR: Just one second. I want to remind all members if you could identify yourself for Hansard prior to speaking, that would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

MR. SAMSON: In Fire and Emergency Services Newfoundland and Labrador, we have a permanent staff complement of twenty-three. That will on occasion rise, particularly when we get into situations where we are responding to disaster events. For example, Hurricane Igor, which would cause us to bring in a number of short-term temporary people to work through the recovery process on that; but, our permanent staff complement is twenty-three people.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Of those employees, how many are permanent and how many are temporary? Are you aware of that? You can undertake to get it to us in the next day or so.

MS BARNES: How many are permanent? Our engineers in our regional offices work as a percentage of our Capital Works budget. So, they are considered temporary but as long as the funding is there every year we maintain them on a permanent basis. I think we have about 115 permanent positions and the rest would be of a temporary nature.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you.

Minister, you mentioned the MNL and you are trying to get a fiscal arrangement, hopefully, done this year. I am just asking for clarification because it was brought to my attention, and I seen it myself.

The Minister of Finance was out yesterday saying there will be no discussions until they get into a surplus position, which is 2014 before they start discussions. There is a bit of confusion there and I will give you an opportunity to clarify it.

MR. O'BRIEN: (Inaudible) fiscal arrangement, one of them is a municipal operating grant formula. That is one component of a new fiscal arrangement. What I have committed to, number one, is developing that municipal operating grant formula in consultations with MNL and municipalities in general, hopefully by the end of this fiscal year or late this fall. That is a commitment I have made, and I made it previous even to this budget, that we have to get this done. We have to have something affordable, something that is transparent, and something that we can sustain long into the future.

The other piece of the fiscal arrangement, which some of it lies within finance, such as things mentioned in the Wade Locke report or the rebate on HST, whatever it is. We find ourselves in a real deficit position this year and we predict that we will be in a deficit position for a number of reasons next year. It is a bigger piece. As a matter of fact, I was listening to the President of MNL this morning, it was on Night Line last night, and they do not expect anything in that regard for at least a year-and-a-half or so. That is a process that we will start.

The Minister of Finance was saying we cannot entertain anything like that until we get ourselves out of a deficit position. We are open for discussions and talks in regard to Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador. The main focus right now is going to be on the development of the new MOG formula, which is a component of a new fiscal arrangement.

MR. JOYCE: The other portion of it, the HST is through Finance more so than through Municipal Affairs?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other question is, and this may go along with the Department of Environment also. How many boil orders are there in Newfoundland and Labrador right now? I know it is a fair number.

MR. MERCER: The number of boil water advisories can fluctuate significantly because any time there is a water main break and you have to do a repair, there is a temporary boil water advisory that gets posted. They can fluctuate. Typically it is in the range of 200 to 230 at any given time. There are about 150 of those that we would consider to be long-term boil water advisories.

MR. JOYCE: I know it is a difficult scenario to be in with the boil orders. What is the department doing? I understand the money is going into Municipal Affairs, but is there anything that can be done?

I understand it is the surface water, and we have all been through it and it is tough. Are there any long-term solutions that the department can look at, because it is a big thing out on the West Coast? People ask me to bring it up. I know it has been ongoing for a long while and I understand the complications of the boil orders.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the reason why we have invested heavily in municipalities and infrastructure, particularly since 2008, and over $500 million has gone into water and waste water mainly in the water projects across Newfoundland and Labrador. That is one thing.

The other piece is that we have invested in what we call PWDU systems. If we cannot address the issue in an equitable and affordable manner in regard to water, we have invested in those types of systems which we have a number of them up and running in Newfoundland and Labrador now. We have twelve more. We have a number of requests in the department and we are seeking requests in regard to investing in that regard. That gives these people clean water that they can have for all the citizens in regard to the particular community in question.

There are a number of issues in regard to boil orders. It is sometimes not necessarily just the quality of the water either. We have communities – and I have to say here – that have chlorination systems in their communities but do not have them turned on because, I have been told, they just do not like the taste of chlorine. That is a decision the municipality will make on their own.

It is a significant concern of government and me, as the minister, that we endeavour to have clean water to all of our municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. We will continue to invest as we have in the past in regard to infrastructure investments.

MR. JOYCE: Just a follow-up to that: Since all of this money has been invested, how many boil orders – has there been a decrease or an increase? I remember in 2004 there were 180 or 190 boil orders.

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not think we can actually give you the data here because that lies within the Department of Environment and Conservation. It is a better question for them. As my Assistant Deputy Minister mentioned, that number can fluctuate at any given time due to a number of variables and reasons. It is hard to put a real number onto it.

It was only recently we had a system commissioned in regard to a project. I just cannot remember the name of the community.

OFFICIAL: Belleoram.

MR. O'BRIEN: Belleoram came off the boil order. We are making it. I cannot keep an eye on each and every one of them, but if you want, I can endeavour to get you some information once the Estimates are over. I have no problem with sharing that kind of information.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I am just going to ask a few questions. I am going through it line by line.

MR. O'BRIEN: Sure.

MR. JOYCE: In 1.1.01, Transportation and Communications, last year there was a revised budget; 2012 rose to $92,000 from $44,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: You did not check on-line, did you?

MR. JOYCE: What?

MR. O'BRIEN: Everything is posted on-line in regard to transportation.

MR. JOYCE: No, I do not check on-line.

MR. O'BRIEN: Anyway, that is mainly due to the price of flights between St. John's and Gander.

MR. JOYCE: Pardon me?

MR. O'BRIEN: The flight from St. John's to Gander, and Gander to St. John's – I am paying probably about $1,200 on average for a round trip between Gander and St. John's. That is the reason and that is all dictated by Air Canada.

MR. JOYCE: Actually, I checked on-line to see –

MR. O'BRIEN: You can check on-line.

MR. JOYCE: No, no. I thought it was more for the communications.

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: I thought it was some communication –

MR. O'BRIEN: No, all in transportation. It is all me.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I was not aware of that. I did not check on-line.

In 1.2.01, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was an increase of $4,600 also.

MR. O'BRIEN: Which line is that again, Eddie?

MR. JOYCE: Line 1.2.01.07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

That is to purchase an iPad for myself –

OFFICIAL: No, that is the Executive Support one, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Where?

OFFICIAL: In 1.2.

MR. O'BRIEN: In 1.2 – I did not catch it.

MR. JOYCE: In 1.2.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, 1.2.01.

That is in regard to new equipment, a couple of BlackBerrys, a BlackBerry car charger, iPad for an ADM, furniture, and a printer and scanner for an ADM secretary.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I go back to that first one, 1.1.01. That is transportation from Gander to St. John's?

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about the Minister's Office, 1.1.01.04?

MR. JOYCE: Line 03.

MR. O'BRIEN: Line 03, sorry.

Yes, that is me.

MR. JOYCE: That is under ministerial travel?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the only thing I get. Other than that, I walk.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. I was not aware. Going back and forth to your district, you usually use your –

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not for a minister – only when the House is sitting. When the House is sitting, it is charged to my constituency allowance and when the House is not sitting, it is charged to the department.

MR. JOYCE: We have it different. We have it where we can travel when the House is not sitting –

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: – and when it is sitting, it is two different budgets for the MHAs.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, but it is the reverse. When the House is sitting I have to go to the House, submit all bills to the House, and when the House is not sitting –

MR. JOYCE: Something should be looked into because that should not be charged off, that should be more as the MHAs' duties when they are going back and forth.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, Administrative Support, 01, Salaries, there is an increase there of $112,000. Was there a position added or positions added?

MR. O'BRIEN: You are talking about up to the $112,000, correct?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: The increase is summer student salaries, as well as there is a severance there for a Clerk II position – retired.

MR. JOYCE: Severance?

MR. O'BRIEN: She retired.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Subhead 2.1.01, Regional Support, Professional Services –

MR. O'BRIEN: In 2.1.01?

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.1.01.05, Professional Services, of the unbudgeted expenditures, there is about $8,300 there.

CHAIR: For clarification, Eddie, where are you?

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 2.1 –

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, I have it, 2.1.01.05 – correct?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all due to the hiring of a commissioner in regard to the relocation of Round Harbour. We had unanticipated consultant-type fees, so that fluctuates from year to year, depending.

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.2.01.05, Professional Services again, $107,000 revised expenditure of 2011 and the $120,000 for the 2012-2013.

MR. O'BRIEN: Just a second, Eddie. You are going to have to clarify that number.

MR. JOYCE: Under 2.2.01.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, 2.2.01.

MR. JOYCE: Under 05, Professional Services.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

That is money in regard to the regional office supplies and also some money that we have to use for economics and stats in some work that we need done in the MOG formula. So we have to pay economics and stats for that service.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

CHAIR: Eddie, your fifteen minutes – can we move on and we will come back to you if you have further questions?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, not a problem.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Gerry?

MS ROGERS: No, I am fine – on to George.

CHAIR: Okay.

George (inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Minister, along with your staff. I know you are facing some particular challenges. I would also like to say good morning to Mr. Mitchelmore and Mr. Crummell who have joined us now.

Mr. Minister, just to come back first off to that line item 2.2.01 –

MR. O'BRIEN: Line 2.2.01.

MR. MURPHY: In Professional Services, you said some money was gone into a study for Municipal Operating Grants, I believe was your answer.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is not a study in Municipal Operating Grants; it is actually the collection of data that would inform the process of developing a new formula.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: You have to have stats in regard to the number of roads, that kind of thing, that might be developed since the old formula in 1992 was developed, and these kinds of things.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. That would be a private company that is out there doing the…

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is a division of government, Economics and Statistics, which is a part of Finance. They do not have the money to do that work for us. We actually pay them to get that done. So it is a transfer of money in that regard.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay. I just had to have a further question on that one.

I do have some questions here as regards to the various branches of your department here before I get on with some line items. As regards to the funding efforts for water, I think there is a direct concern here as regards to water sampling and boil orders. That much we know about, and Mr. Joyce has asked those questions already. I am a bit curious in regard to any federal impacts we might have seen from the last federal budget.

Is there anything lost here that we may have lost through any federal funding initiatives, for example? Has the department faced any cutbacks when it comes to any monies that might have been directed to water?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, none whatsoever.

MR. MURPHY: None whatsoever. Okay.

As regards to a further issue when it comes to water, last year in Estimates there was an issue in regard to the recoup of money from OCI. I believe you had an issue that you were working out there.

Can you give us an update as regards to what was happening there?

MR. O'BRIEN: You are talking about the industrial water supply –

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: – in regard to a number of communities in Newfoundland and Labrador. One is Port Union. The other one is Comfort Cove, Dildo, and this kind of thing. There are industrial water rights systems in place and then there is a charge that is levied to a particular community.

Right now, our invoices are gone out to the particular proponents, the owners of the plants. We hope we would have collection of that particular revenue source within this fiscal year. That is the normal process.

MR. MURPHY: How much do they owe the government right now for water?

MR. O'BRIEN: I would say they probably owe us about $700,000 approximately – $715,000, maybe – if I can remember my numbers right. That is just OCI.

Now, we have an anomaly there in Port Union, as well. We have a plant that was severely damaged during Igor that will never open again. That has been announced by the company. That is something we have to take into consideration in regard to those particular fees.

MR. MURPHY: It is a little bit disturbing to know a company like that would have that much of a debt load that it owes to the government. You say OCI owes about $700,000 to government right now, but are there any other companies that owe money to government in regard to that dollar level? Can we get a list of those companies?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is it. That is the only one who owes us. There might be a couple of other companies, I think out – I am trying to remember one of them. It is a very small company, but it is very insignificant amounts. The major portion of the $700,000 is OCI because they happen to own those plants in those particular communities that have industrial water systems in them.

There are six communities, so the major portion of it comes from OCI. They just happen to own the plant and that is the reason, but it is a normal process for municipal affairs to send out invoices and then collect them in the next fiscal year. It is just the timing of the thing.

MR. MURPHY: How long has that been on the books now?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is a continuous process from year to year to year.

MR. MURPHY: It just rolls over.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it rolls, absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: They have not been keeping up with it.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. I think there is probably a process here that – I just keep thinking we are owed $700,000 and somebody should account for it. We are talking layoffs in the department, we are talking about –

MR. O'BRIEN: That is not a long-term debt. That is a continuous process. In the meantime, we do – like I just said, there is an issue out in Port Union that we have to address, along with the community and OCI, in regard to that particular facility that will not open. It was severally damaged by Igor.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Thank you very much for that one.

A little bit of a question on your debt servicing program too because I know that you have been having some progress as regards to the debt servicing costs to municipal affairs. Maybe you can give us an update on that.

That would be section 3.1.01. I think that was one of the topics, as well, that came up last year. Perhaps you can give us an update on how those debt servicing moves have been going.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. We continue to endeavour to pay that down. As you probably know, we moved from a loan-type process in regard to urban-municipal Capital Works to a cash base in 2008. We continue to pay down on that debt. As a matter of fact, it is down now to about $133.7 million.

We paid down about $9.2 million this year past and we will continue to do that. You will see that in a declining position because we do not make loans to Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador since 2008, and we will continue to pay that down. As long as you are the critic on this particular committee, next year you will see a decline on the principal side and on the debt servicing side as well. That is a continuous process. We have to have that paid out, and paid out completely, by 2020.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. Well, it looks like you have been making some pretty good progress on it. The difference in the amount, for example, from last year, if I am looking at these amounts correctly, $26,320,000 down to $23,4230400 in section 3.1.02 Municipal Debt Servicing – Principal.

Is the difference rolled back into the department again so that the department can do more spending, for example? Does that give you any kind of a buffer to pour money back into it?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it does not work that way. That is a debt that is held in the Department of Finance for Municipal Affairs. We pay it down but it does not free up any more money in regard to investing in municipal infrastructure. That is a budgetary process that we have to go through to determine our commitment authority for this particular year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just a couple of more questions; progress for the Northeast Avalon Regional Plan and the Humber Valley Regional Plan, I wonder if the minister can give us an update on that one as well?

MR. O'BRIEN: That was a question, too, last year. In regard to the number of communities that is affected by the NEAR Plan, we had a request from those particular members to do a significant rewrite of the consultative process. We had to revise the schedule. We had to revise the cost as well. Now we figure we will have that rewrite done probably by the end of May and start moving it forward, hopefully, in a significant way.

MR. MURPHY: We will see those plans shortly?

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We are endeavouring to do so. It is just that we got bogged down in regard to that rewrite. In the meantime, we make every endeavour to make sure that that actual plan is in place as quickly as we can get it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect.

I wanted to get over to unincorporated communities. I know they have been having difficulties on their own but there is a problem in regard to a moratorium when it comes to getting any work done. They want to go ahead and get incorporated just to be able to avail of more services and everything. Do you have any comment on that?

MR. O'BRIEN: The total focus – and I want to use the word total, okay – of Municipal Affairs, and me, as the minister, is on our municipalities. They are number one. We have a severe deficit in regard to infrastructure that we encountered in 2003. We have had the fortunate aspect of being able to invest heavily in Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador, and will continue to do so.

I personally believe that each and every household and homeowner in Newfoundland and Labrador have a responsibility to pay taxes and pay the right level of tax for the services they would require. If a person chooses to live in an unincorporated area, well then that particular service is for them to provide themselves, because they are not a part of a municipality, they are not a part of an LSD. They probably chose to live there for a reason.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

I just want to get back to the industrial waste services for a minute, Minister. You mentioned Port Union, or OCI because of Port Union, do they owe government money because of that?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all. We have sent the invoices out in regard to that particular community. We have had no interaction with OCI, but from my point of view as the minister responsible for municipalities, and Trinity in particular, they have a system now that is not a normal system to provide water to their particular households.

It is an expensive system to run. It is way beyond the spec requirement in regard to a water system. We have to address that somehow or other. So, we will continue in the process in regard to that particular community and see where we come out of the woods on it in regard to a solution.

MR. JOYCE: Do OCI, from another plant, owe the government funding through this here – owe money?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, all the invoices for the six communities in question have gone out. Each one of them is outstanding at this particular time, and we would normally collect them in this fiscal year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Minister, 2.3.03.01 Salaries –

MR. O'BRIEN: 2.3.03?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sir, 2.3.03.01 –

MR. O'BRIEN: Salaries 01?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. It is under Rural Planning. There were positions added there?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there were. There were two Planner III positions added and a filling of a Clerk III position as well.

We have had a lot of requests in regard to our Urban and Rural Planning division and that is all because of economic development. People are trying to grow their communities and they have a good chance to do so. We have good times and are fortunate to be able to weather the global downturn. They are trying to grow themselves, so we have a lot of requests in regard to that division.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Transportation and Communications, there is an increase there, a revised increase for 2011-2012.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is all reflected because of the number of appeals that have been heard by the Eastern Appeal Board. That is the major portion of that in regard to their travel costs, accommodations, et cetera.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Just on appeals, I wrote you a letter a few weeks back, and I got a response – thank you – about the Western Appeal Board. Is there any movement on that yet?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. We should soon have that rectified.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, because there were two or three appeals that people mentioned to me that there were no members on the board.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we will have that rectified soon. We have to get good people who can sit on those appeal boards. They have to be suited for that particular board. We will have that done in pretty short order.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect. Thank you.

Professional Services, again in 05 of the same subhead, there was a revised increase.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is consultant costs in regard to Phase III of the Trans-Labrador Highway in regard to protected road zoning plan.

MR. JOYCE: The Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is a normal part of the process as we move through the different phases.

MR. JOYCE: In 3.1.03 Municipal Operating Grants, subsection 10; part of the 2012-2013 MOG is showing in the 2011-2012 revised part.

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about 3.1.03.10?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: What is the question again?

MR. JOYCE: Part of the 2012-2013 MOG is showing in 2011-2012 revised.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. As you know, municipalities operate on a calendar year. We operate on a fiscal year, and we paid it out before the end of this past fiscal year, March 31.

MR. JOYCE: So it is just accounting?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all. It is an accounting procedure.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Community Enhancement grants. Again, you can see the details there, it was $ 9 million and it was revised. This year I can see in the Estimates that it is down to $5 million or $6 million.

Is that normal to have a certain amount put in or is it better to have the amount that is going to be used to have it in?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a normal procedure. The simple reason is that there is no scientific data that you can apply to the Community Enhancement program in regard to the number of people who might be shy in regard to hours for eligibility on EI.

What we do is use our base and we apply that base to the different districts and municipalities, and sponsoring committees. Then, in turn, that generates a fair bit of information coming back from you, as the MHA, that would identify a need. Once we accumulate the particular data that comes back from the districts and from the MHAs in particular, well then I would consider another amount, a second round per se in regard to the Community Enhancement program. That is really the only way it can work because it is a very volatile type of program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Just on that, Minister, I know a few of the projects that were out in the Bay of Islands were very beneficial. The one I mentioned in the House was the – one in particular was the fire hall in York Harbour where they did the roof and the siding, and they did inside. It is almost like a brand new hall. That is a great program, and I know the work the staff does to ensure getting it out in time and all of that. I just wanted to add that.

There are other projects that were done where work is going to be going on to help the community. I know the one in the community hall, and the brush cutting was also another one that came up.

I am just passing it on to the staff who administers that, that it was timely. I know you have forty-eight of us calling and nagging but just pass it on that it was worthwhile projects for that, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do not mind being nagged.

MR. JOYCE: Thank them for having the patience with us.

MR. O'BRIEN: I might want to add as well, we had 289 projects last year that employed roundabout 2,000 people in Newfoundland and Labrador. This program is really worthwhile.

As you mentioned, I appreciate your words, it does have and supports significant projects in various communities. It is just not people standing on shovels or anything like that. People do good work in regard to these programs. It is a very worthwhile program, especially in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Under 3.2.01.10, Grants and Subsidies, there is $97 million. I am going to ask a question, and I do not know if this is done right or not: Is there any breakdown of the grants and subsidies and where they are going?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the capital works funding.

MR. JOYCE: When will that be out and ready to go?

MR. O'BRIEN: As soon as you let me out of here, I might be able to finish it off and frame it up.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, as you know, as you go past it each year, especially wintertime, it is not good work being done and things like that.

MR. O'BRIEN: I believe after probably this weekend – I shall work on it this weekend – hopefully we will have things rolling by the end of next week. The multi-year is quite easy because that is just identifying the number in regard to the multi-year municipalities. Then they control their own destiny, other than they have to submit whatever projects they want to do with that money. That is a quicker process.

In regard to all the municipalities across Newfoundland and Labrador, you have a certain amount that you have at your disposal in regard to commitment authority. I am pretty near now, too – I will have a discussion with yourselves in the next little while, probably this week, or you will probably get a phone call from me, whatever it may be. Then we will discuss some projects.

MR. JOYCE: The reason why is a lot of municipalities like to get their work done early. When you get into October and November, especially out our way, it gets muddy and you do not get as much value for your work.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely, and the reason why it was a little late last year is because, as you know, we suspended the multi-year just where I could have a look at the different programs within Municipal Affairs. I needed to do that. I could not do it if I did not suspend it.

This year, in regard to the budget and the investment of $130 million, now my number is set for next year as well. I will be able to get that out probably in the middle of January or early February next year. I know the number now. I do not have to wait for it so then we can take advantage of the construction industry and get good dollar value in regard to the project. We will endeavour to get this out over the next couple of weeks.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

One more question: When can we sit down and have a discussion on Bay of Islands?

MR. O'BRIEN: If you are not speaking to the private members' bill, we can talk today. How is that? I am always available.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

CHAIR: George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was just saying, I was thinking there for a second as regards what he was saying, but anyway, I digress.

Mr. Minister, just a couple more questions on the overall issues that are pertaining to various branches of your department. One of them that come to mind is Fire and Emergency Services. I know some people were probably thinking that Igor was a prime example of global warming.

I would like to know, probably from your people in your department as well: Fire and Emergency Services – are we ready for it? Are we ready for probably an increased cost to that particular branch of your department when it comes to global warming concerns?

For example, this year already we have dealt with a number of brush fires and everything in the immediate St. John's area. This summer it is probably going to be one of the warmest on record. Are you anticipating anything?

MR. O'BRIEN: You never know what a year is going to bring. You do not know what tomorrow is going to bring. We started tracking Igor about two or three weeks prior to it ever hitting Newfoundland and Labrador, and then you have to deal with it. You cannot put a figure onto it and you cannot put a number on it in regard to the effect it may have on municipalities right across a bandwidth that stretched, in this particular case, from Burin to the tip of the Bonavista Peninsula. So we deal with that.

As well, in regard to global warming and the piece you are talking about in regard to being ready, there are two pieces of that. There is a piece of being prepared, which is part of our plan and a part of putting emergency plans in place by May 2012 for all municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. They are mandated to do that. We have 95 per cent or plus of those plans already submitted. We are working with the others to have them in place and hopefully get them in place prior to that deadline date. That is number one. We have our own provincial plan in place, as well. That is that piece of it.

Then in regard to the funding aspect of it, we work with our federal partners under the DFAA program, and work with them in determining, number one, if we are dealing with a disaster; number two, if it is eligible; and number three, we try to put a figure to it, which is a volatile, moving number, especially in the front end of it. If it is not deemed a disaster and we do not avail of the DFAA program, then we consider all results or issues we have to deal with in regard to any damage under our Municipal Capital Works Program.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

When it comes to emergency preparedness and everything, I would like to ask a couple of questions on Province-wide 911 and what progress Municipal Affairs has been making in this regard.

Do you have any proposals back? I think you had some calls for RFPs on that. Maybe you can give us an update on the progress of 911.

MR. O'BRIEN: We called an RFP. We had a successful company. I believe the company's name is Pomax. They have done their work and they have submitted their report to Fire and Emergency Services. It is currently under review. They met their deadlines that they had in regard to that piece of work we needed to get done. That is within my department now and it is being evaluated. Then we will have a look at it – a real, cold look at it – and start moving it forward.

I must say as well, in regard to 911 it is not just simply implementing it. There are a number of challenges in regard to implementing 911. We have 911 in certain areas of Newfoundland and Labrador right now, such as the Northeast Avalon. We will keep it moving forward, but there are challenges in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a unique Province in this great country of Canada, but it is an important thing we have to look at because we have to have a system in place that people feel safe and can rely on.

That piece of work done by Pomax is significant and it is very worthwhile. We will start moving it forward now as we evaluate the actual report.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Minister, I was just wondering: Is this report going to be made available to our party as well as the Official Opposition?

MR. O'BRIEN: Sure. When we are finished with our piece of work, which will be not too long from now, then we will release the report.

MR. MURPHY: It will be a pleasure to read it.

Another question in regard to the thermal imaging cameras that were funded through the Department of Justice – and I know the cameras were, in the meantime, funded through the Department of Justice but were designated out to certain areas by Municipal Affairs. Why was that?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it was not designated by Municipal Affairs. We worked with the provincial association, the Search and Rescue Association.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: They had done a lot of work in regard to thermal imaging cameras over the past number of years. They have lobbied government, particularly Fire and Emergency Services, over the last number of years. We funded other pieces of equipment for those particular search and rescue units. I think there are twenty-six of them in Newfoundland and Labrador in various areas.

All we did in regard to that piece of work, we provided the association a grant. They bought the equipment and then they provided them to each and every search and rescue organization in the particular communities or the particular regions they are located in.

MR. MURPHY: On that aspect, Municipal Affairs is happy right now with the land-use coverage and the availability of these cameras in different areas of the Province?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I cannot remember where I even saw the map, but one area of concern directly was on the Northern Peninsula. I think there was only one camera up on the Northern Peninsula. Is that right?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, and that is because there is only one search and rescue group there. You must remember that search and rescue groups are very mobile. They have equipment and that kind of stuff. They move very quickly. They are very organized. They are very well trained. Just because it is a huge geographic area does not mean that the particular camera would not be available to a far-reaching part of that region. You must remember, again, they are very mobile and very well trained.

As well, it is not just placing a thermal imaging camera in a particular area. You have to have people who are trained, and well trained, to use those pieces of equipment. Now, when it comes to the association and the formation of another group, at some particular time when there is a group over and above the twenty-six we have in Newfoundland and Labrador now, we will consider another camera or another piece of equipment, at some point in time.

Right now, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is well served by the various search and rescue groups that are in existence. We are well covered as compared to other jurisdictions in Canada.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thank you very much.

I have just one more question as regards the Solid Waste Management Strategy. In the news, particularly over the last little while, it has become a direct concern with people dumping in areas outside of jurisdictions in some cases. One particular news report the other day of note involved an area of dumping up around the back of Paddy's Pond, which is one of our pristine areas of the Province.

Mr. Minister, I would like to ask: When it comes to the cost some of these municipalities are facing when it comes to the shipping off of garbage to the central collection areas, I know this is a direct human concern and that we should all be concerned with the proper dumping of our garbage and everything, but is the department looking at possibly heavier convictions in the event of catching some of these people?

At the same time, in saying that, maybe you can give us an overview on the challenges that some smaller municipalities are going to be facing as regards to paying for the cost of garbage removal. It is a direct concern with me, and I think with a lot of municipalities out there. So maybe you can give us an update as regards to that and possibly some of the challenges that your department is going to be facing as regards to that, because illegal dumping is sickening, to say the least.

MR. O'BRIEN: George, the first thing I will say is that it is the responsibility of each and every one of us, as citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador, to protect our environment, and that is what I endeavour to do in regard to my communication on the Solid Waste Management Strategy in Newfoundland and Labrador. Each and every opportunity I get, I express that to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and I believe that most of it is all in the education piece.

I grew up on the Southern Shore many, many moons ago. When I grew up it was acceptable to go in, what we called, the track and dump whatever you wanted to dump in on the side of that track; everything from old cars to washers and dryers, to whatever you wanted to dispose of. That was an acceptable thing in Newfoundland and Labrador back then when I grew up. Nobody even blinked an eye at it, but that is not acceptable to today's society. It is not acceptable to us, it is not acceptable to our children, and it is certainly not going to be acceptable to our children's children.

In regard to the piece that you are talking about now, what I am trying to get at is that this has been going on for a long, long time in regard to dumping garbage outside of an acceptable disposal site. It is just that now there is media attention to it, so now it seems to be more pronounced than it was years ago, but it is not, it is exactly the same.

In saying that, I firmly believe that we can have resources out there in regard to human resources but you will never, ever completely irradiate the dumping of waste in areas such as you just said, Paddy's Pond or wherever it may be – that is not acceptable. You never would. You would have to have someone standing behind every tree in Newfoundland and Labrador watching everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador.

What I am getting at is we will start a communications strategy and will be totally focused – I should not say totally focused, but mainly focused in regard to educating the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that this is not acceptable. That is the answer, actually. Over a period of time, which is seen in other jurisdictions in Canada and North America, I think it will become less and less of a problem. The main focus will have to be on the educational piece.

Boy, I tell you, it never ceases to amaze me. I remember being told about an incident out in Central Newfoundland and Labrador where there was a drop-off site provided by the particular community for the weekends. The dump was open on Saturday and the particular person who dumped illegally bypassed from their home the drop-off site within the community itself. It was just a left turn. They could have dropped it off and went on up in their cabin or wherever they went. They bypassed the open dump on the same road to where they were going to, and then they dumped after they went by them all.

There is no way on this earth you can counterbalance that. You would never have enough resources to do so, and human resources in regard to enforcement officers. The only way you can do that is to educate the person to the point that it is unacceptable and they are ashamed to do so. I firmly believe that. That is a process we are going to have to go through.

I would like to also reiterate that this is not a new problem. This is an old problem that has been going on in Newfoundland and Labrador for a long, long time.

MR. MURPHY: We just keep beating up on ourselves. I do not know why we are doing it.

CHAIR: George, do you have any further questions?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, just a couple of line items.

In Fire and Emergency Services Agency, 4.1.03, Salaries I noticed have gone from budgeted $581,700 for last year, the actual is $504,000, and down to a drop of $403,600 in the 2012-2013 Estimates. I am curious. Fire and Emergency Services, as far as I am concerned, is one department that should not be facing a cut. Are we dealing with a loss of personnel here in this department?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all. It is just a re-profiling of three positions. There is no loss of jobs, just three positions that needed to be re-profiled: the Clerk III position, executive support program co-ordinator to Fire and Emergency Services, and administrative officer to disaster assistance. It is just identifying areas that they are needed in and re-profiling those numbers.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just further down in 4.1.03.05, Professional Services shows $19,400. It went unspent last year but that budget has been topped up again for this year's Estimates.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is there in regard to needing consulting services. Last year we did not need it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: At various times we may need it.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Further over to Fire and Emergency Services Agency, 4.1.05 Disaster Assistance. Salaries there have dropped as well from $426,700 down to a projected $350,000 this year. Are there job positions lost there as well?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is not. It just reflects the salary and overtime in regard to Hurricane Igor.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

That is hopefully going to be back to normal and no hurricanes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Hopefully, no disasters.

MR. MURPHY: We will keep the fingers crossed on that one.

As regards to Disaster Assistance, the $25 million figure just further down, just below Revenue – Federal. That would be a federal contribution they gave to us.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Finally in that section, in Grants and Subsidies, $6 million; do you have a list of those grants that were given out for that particular year?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all the claims, Igor claims.

MR. MURPHY: That is all claims there is it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

MR. JOYCE: I just have a few more (inaudible). Do you need a break or do you have to make a call or anything? Are you all right?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I am good.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. I did not know if you had to make a call or something.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not at all.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 3.2.02. Federal/Provincial Infrastructure Programs, 10. Grants and Subsidies, the money was budgeted in 2011. Was all the money spent in 2011-2012 that was budgeted under this program?

MR. O'BRIEN: Are you talking about 3.2.02.10?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, 3.2.02.10.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is due to the reduction in the federal contributions in regard to the MRF and the Canada Building Fund projects. That is all being subscribed in regard to our portion of the Build in Canada Fund and all the components there. That will decrease over the next number of years until we get a new program in place.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have a few more questions, Minister, on 3.2.03.10 Grants and Subsidies gas tax. Was all the gas tax money expended in 2011-2012? It seems like it was not.

MR. O'BRIEN: The gas tax is driven totally by the municipalities in regard to the projects they submit. There are a number of communities out there that have not availed of their gas tax this year but we carry that forward for them until the end of the program.

We have been working with them to identify appropriate type projects that would fall within the federal guidelines, and we will continue to so. We do not anticipate – it is just that it is an up and down number as well, depending on the projects that are submitted by the municipalities.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, Environment Canada is coming out with these new regulations for waste water. I am sure you know the concerns of municipalities. Has the Province signed on to that yet? I know back years ago they said they would not sign on to it. Is there anything new on that, because it is a big concern for a lot of municipalities, as you know?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

The particular guidelines are not clear yet in regard to that federal program, federal initiative. So, we will be working and collaborating with our federal counterparts. We do have concerns in regard to the cost but it is a process that we have to go through. It is not a negotiated process I suppose, but a consultative process with our federal counterparts.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Do you have any timeline on that? Has the federal government given the Province any timeline?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, not really. They have not yet. We do not think there is going to be any new programming dollars until probably 2014, 2015.

MS BARNES: It is waste water. They have not gone through their second gazetting yet, so we do not know what they look like.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, we do not even know what they look like because they have not gone through their second gazetting yet at all. We do not even know. We have just been collaborating with them, discussions, that kind of thing. So there is really no clarity in regard to those guidelines.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

As you know, the federal government has been saying they want everything in place by 2020.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: That does not seem realistic right now, does it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, we will have to see exactly – when they do the second gazetting we are going to have a look at it and see how much federal money is going to be available to address the issues and what is going to be the responsibility of the provinces in question. That is something I would not be able to speculate on.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have just a few district things here. The 2012 Budget, is there anything in the plans to replace the municipal buildings in Charlottetown, in St. Lewis, Labrador?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is something that we have to work out. Like I said, we have a commitment authority of $130 million over a two-year period, and that works out between multi-year and municipal capital works. That is something I will take into consideration, but just remember in my opening remarks that we have over $700 million worth of ask.

Our priority is in safe water for the people of the Province and municipalities. So, I would not be able to venture a guess in regard to those particular two projects that you have mentioned.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, just a few things out on the West Coast; waste management, as you know that has been a big topic out our way. The commitments were made, and I have a letter here from the Great Humber Joint Council asking for a site to be on the West Coast.

Is there any timeline when the waste management is going to be up and running out on the West Coast?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, we are at a decision point in regard to Western Newfoundland and Labrador, and the decision point is that they are going to pull to the Central waste facility that is now open. It opened about a month-and-a-half, two months or so ago. The numbers are looking that this is the favourable-type solution to Western.

I firmly believe we have made significant progress in Western over the last year, and will continue to do so. There is a fair bit of work to do over there, but once we come to that decision in regard to whether we are going to pull into Central or not, it will move more quickly than it has in the past because we will have that decision made.

MR. JOYCE: Is there a time frame when there is going to be a decision made? I will explain why, because there was a letter sent to you – and I know there is a lot of correspondence – April 5, from the Great Humber Joint Council asking that there be a permanent site in the Western Region. They were asking me to see when the decision is going to be made, a time frame, because this has been ongoing for a long, long, while.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, we will make a decision in the not-too-distant future in regard to what we are going to do. As I just said, the numbers and the consultant report are very favourable to pulling to Central. We have to have a system in place that is affordable and sustainable to the people that we serve, and we will endeavour to do so.

The solution to Western is not establishing a facility there, because this facility – in my mind anyway, this whole strategy is all about protecting the environment of the Province that we live in. So, that is the main focus to me, but it has to be affordable to the householder and it has to be sustainable to the householder and the municipalities. Once we make that decision what we are going to do in Western, well then it will start to move in this fiscal year.

Now, I must caution you, it takes time. You just do not build these things overnight in regard to transfer stations and that kind of stuff. Robin Hood Bay, or Eastern, is doing really, really well. Just about every community east of the Avalon, the isthmus, is trucking into Robin Hood Bay now. Norris Arm is working quite well. We will be going into the material recovery facility this year, moving that forward – that is funded. We are making great progress.

Again, when it comes to Western, yes, they are lagging behind in regard to the other two regions, but it will move quite quickly once we make that decision.

MR. JOYCE: What would you call the near future? I know I am not going to pin you down. I do not want to pin you down but –

MR. O'BRIEN: It will be this fiscal year.

MR. JOYCE: This fiscal year?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: In the letter, they mentioned they would like to have a discussion with you or someone. I do not know if that is possible. I will just bring that to your attention. They want to sit down with you – the Great Humber Joint Council which encompasses all the municipalities in the Humber region. I just bring that to your attention, if it is possible.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, no problem.

MR. JOYCE: The other thing is –and it has been a little (inaudible) for me for years – the land use advisory committee; I brought that up earlier. Can you tell me when there is going to be a final report or when there is going to be something finalized with this?

MS BARNES: We have to go back, redrafting needs to be done and then it has to go through another consultation round.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, there is a process that we are going through. Sandra, my deputy minister, just reminded me that there is redrafting in progress and then there is another consulting round that has to happen as well. That is process that we have to go through. We do not want to do something unless we do it right. Sometimes it takes a bit of time and you have to be patient with it.

MR. JOYCE: What is the purpose of this land use advisory committee right now? Because it is almost like an issue that is not even in the realm out on the West Coast, yet –

MR. O'BRIEN: When it comes to land use, we have to have controlled development. We cannot have everything going each and every which way, which happened in the past. We have to have a controlled development process and maximize and be conscious of our land use. Because as we develop and expand, there are pressure points come on infrastructure and infrastructure financing. We have to be very careful with that –

MR. JOYCE: Who does the land use advisory in St. John's? Is it your department?

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Why is the only one set up is the one in Corner Brook?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is done by the city.

MS BARNES: Do you want me to speak to that?

MR. O'BRIEN: You can go ahead, yes.

MS BARNES: In the development of the regional plans, there have been committees set up to oversee – it is usually the members of municipalities – the development process of the plan. Once the plan is finalized, then it becomes a document like the municipal plan. That committee will not be there forever and a day because the plan is a living document then. Everybody takes their municipal plan and looks at it in terms of the regional plan to see if there are any amendments.

For example, there was a regional plan developed for the Northeast Avalon back in the late 1970s. That still remains the document we refer and match all the municipal plans against. The members of municipalities on the Northeast Avalon now are working on a replacement plan for that.

MR. JOYCE: The municipalities themselves?

MS BARNES: Yes, because they are the stakeholders.

MR. JOYCE: Is it under the department –

MS BARNES: It falls under the Urban and Rural Planning Act. The regional plan is the master plan, and then all of the municipal plans fit within that.

MR. JOYCE: This is something – I got some of it under freedom of information. Can I get the expenses for the land advisory committee from conception to date –

MS BARNES: From when?

MR. JOYCE: From when it was started to date – expenses, travel expenses, the cost, and also expenses for the waste management, the cost since it started up.

I will explain why. It is because – and I got this under the freedom of information from the department – the person on the advisory committee got paid, I think, $49,000 a year for meetings. It is a volunteer thing, but $49,000. I would like to have the office expenses. There is an office set up now. It is just started up. Okay, we will do the advisory committee and three years later we have an office and we have part-time staff set up. It is almost like getting blown out in trips – as I mentioned to the minister, a trip to Niagara Falls for seven days for sustainable development. In my opinion, it is blown right out of proportion.

If I can get the expenses for the land advisory committee and the expenses for the waste management since conception to date for the chairperson – I know Gil Smart was there and he resigned. It is the same person now, Don Downer, doing both, as the minister knows. It is getting pretty expensive and there are not a lot of results being seen out on the West Coast. I do not know what is going on behind the scenes, but I can tell you out on the West Coast there is a lot of frustration about both. So, if you can undertake to get me all the –

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Also, from my understanding – and again, I do not know who can answer this – some of the expenses are paid through the Town of Pasadena. The expenses are actually going through the Town of Pasadena –

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, (inaudible) – go ahead.

MS BARNES: (Inaudible) do you want to speak to this one.

OFFICIAL: You go ahead.

MS BARNES: Because it is run through the municipality; that is how we set it up. I think it was set up about 2006 like that.

OFFICIAL: In 2009.

MS BARNES: In 2009, sorry. What we do is the expense reports come in but they are managed through one of the member of municipalities. The same thing happens with the NEAR Plan. Money is paid through St. John's, and St. John's administers the account.

MR. JOYCE: For both – for the land advisory committee and the waste management?

MS BARNES: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, so can I have a copy of what was paid also to the municipalities, a breakdown?

MS BARNES: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

Because it will save me a lot of time having to go through the freedom of information, because it is a frustrating issue out there.

Minister, can I go back – and again, I will respond to a letter saying that in this fiscal year there will be a decision, there is no time frame, but within this fiscal year there will be a decision made. So that would be fair? Because they are asking me to try to find out when there is going to be a decision made on the waste management out on the West Coast. So that is what I will say, that I spoke in Estimates and within this fiscal year, maybe sooner.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. JOYCE: Another issue that was brought to my attention, Minister, was municipalities – and I am not too familiar on it. Engineering for different municipalities – they have an engineer, almost like somewhere there is a consultant and they do the projects, but it is going to be changed now to a fee-based project. Is anybody aware of that?

MR. O'BRIEN: Could you repeat that again?

MR. JOYCE: For example, if an engineer is for a town now, they take care of the projects that –

MR. O'BRIEN: Engineering firm of records, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. They do the projects, and then if a project comes up, that is the engineering for the town. During the year, if there is a little call or something, they can call an engineer and they would give them free advice or come down and look at something. A few municipalities mentioned to me that Municipal Affairs is going to change that, to have it like each project will go out on tender to get the project, whichever engineering firm gets it. I do not even know if this is happening. This was just brought to my attention. I told them I would bring it up.

What they are scared of is that if each project is a stand-alone project – and as you know, some of the municipalities may ask questions and they will not have an engineering firm to call because it is not, as they call it, the town's engineers. Is there anything to that?

MR. O'BRIEN: First, I would like to say that when we are spending the people's money we have to get the best bang for our dollar. There is a cost to the provincial government, whatever the cost-share ratio is, and there is a cost to the municipality.

We have to endeavour to get the best work that we can possibly get at the best dollar value. I will say too, coming from past business, we do not mind Newfoundland and Labrador companies or any companies making a profit, not at all, but we have to get a net worth in regard to that investment. That is number one.

Number two, is that the engineering consulting process in regard to engineering consultants of record will remain the same. It is just that Municipal Affairs, and me as the minister, has the option to go to an RFP process in regard to choosing an engineering consulting firm to manage a project of a certain size and of a certain complexity. Those types of projects, such as water treatment or sewerage treatment facilities, that is the piece you are hearing out there, that we are going to that process.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a worthwhile process to go through, in that we get a better value in regard to the RFP process. Instead of going to a straight tender in regard to one technology, it actually forces the consulting firm to look at all technologies as well as life-cycle costs and overheads, which is not a normal part and does not have to be a normal part of the normal tendering process. That is the reason behind that, because we are spending big dollars in regard to $20 million, $30 million and $40 million projects. We have to make sure –

MR. JOYCE: This is not the smaller municipalities with the –

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. They were quite concerned –

MR. O'BRIEN: If you are putting straight pipe in the ground or whatever it may be and there is no complexity to the actual project itself, it will remain the same. Other than if we see excessive fees or whatever it may be, I, as the minister, will be questioning those excessive fees.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

So I can go back to municipalities and say this is mainly geared to the bigger $30 million, $40 million, or $50 million projects in RFPs?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Thank you for that.

CHAIR: One more question, Eddie, before I go back to George. George has a couple of more questions.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, sure.

CHAIR: Do you have one more?

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

I will go back to George then, seeing you have lots more.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to come back to two line items. Then I have about two more questions for your department and that will be it, on this end anyway. If I have any other questions after that I will ask you in the House.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is no problem. I am always ready for them.

MR. MURPHY: You are, Sir. What a minister you are, too.

Section 4.1.01 under Executive Support, line 05 Professional Services. I had down here $180,900 and projected this year to be $150,000. The projected for last year was $250,000. I wonder if I could get a bit of an explainer on that line.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is actually to do with POMAX and the 911.

MR. MURPHY: That is POMAX, is it? There you go, that is not bad.

MR. O'BRIEN: We got the contract for less than what we anticipated.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. It sounds good, then. At least the taxpayers will save some money anyway.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is prudent fiscal management.

MR. MURPHY: We can all go for that, I guess.

The last item I have is regard to the line items. In 4.1.02.10 Grants and Subsidies, I noticed a huge drop there by just about half, down from $1.126 million to $626,500.

I wonder if I could get an explanation as regards to the grants and subsidies that might have been there and probably get a list of these grants and subsidies that were issued.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is actually, George, in regard to equipment that we fund for various fire departments in Newfoundland and Labrador. We invested $1 million or so in last year's Budget and I think it was upwards around $1 million the year previous to that as well. This reflects back to the base Budget because of the deficit. This funds such things as bunker suits and that kind of thing.

MR. MURPHY: Right. It is a probably a great segue to my final question as regards to loans and interest rates that Municipal Affairs would be giving to municipalities.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do not.

MR. MURPHY: You do not do that now?

MR. O'BRIEN: We do everything on a cash basis since 2008.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, okay.

What I am wondering about is the actual debt servicing that some of the municipalities are going through. I do not know if your department actually gives municipalities a hand when it comes to the possibility of renegotiating loans, that sort of thing. Some municipalities of course are carrying a heavy debt loan as regards to, for example, interest rates were a particular burden some years back.

I was just wondering if you can address that as regards to the efforts that Municipal Affairs is giving to municipalities in that regard.

MR. O'BRIEN: We do. We go in and we try to restructure their debt if it is over the acceptable debt-service ratio. We have had municipalities up in the 40 per cent and 60 per cent range. Most of our municipalities now are down around 20 per cent and 21 per cent, and below 21 per cent.

We have a large percentage of our municipalities in good position right now over the last number of years. If that is required, we will send a team in to sit with the municipality in question and try to restructure their debt so that it is manageable by the particular community and hopefully work towards an outcome that they will have an acceptable debt-service ratio in the future.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

I think it was the Town of Bonavista that did a little bit of restructuring and that saved themselves a huge amount of money.

Mr. Minister, I want to thank you and your staff this morning. I cannot think of anything else right now that I would like to ask. I think most of my questions in regard to the line items have been answered here this morning.

I would like to thank your staff for coming in. You have a heck of a department and you are doing a heck of a job. The responsibility of course on this end is to work with government to help the minister be the best that he can be. We will continue the work on that end. You are still a work in progress, but I acknowledge the work that he has been doing.

Thank you very much for all your efforts and you can thank the people under you as well.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is always a work in progress, George. They are continually, for probably about fourteen hours a day, trying to stuff information into my brain.

MR. MURPHY: I would keep more heat on you but heating oil is real expensive.

CHAIR: Thank you, George. Thank you, Minister.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Minister, I have a few more questions here about specific things in the Bay of Islands mainly. This one here is about the new fire trucks, how they were selected, and I explained why.

I mentioned in one of the few words I had in the House is that the Town of Cox's Cove were notified at a time – not by your department now, this is political, not by an official in your department – that they had a new fire truck. Then by the time it came out they never had one.

They have a 1983 truck that they have to try to keep going. Now they have to go and get a new clutch and it takes two weeks to get brought in from the US. They do not even have parts in Canada. At the time, going back, it was political, someone stood up and said – I told them I would ask them how the selection is made, so if the minister can explain.

MR. O'BRIEN: We evaluate all of the equipment across Newfoundland and Labrador at various times. It is a continuous process and we have an aging fleet. We have invested heavily, as you just referenced, over the last couple of years with regard to vehicle requirements.

I would not be able to speak to the political side because we actually assign vehicles according to need because it is all about life and safety issues in the Province. I caution people that – in regard to my remarks to the association last year when I spoke, I said we are going to soon be announcing approximately twenty or twenty-two trucks this year. I said that means that there is going to be about fifty of you that are going to be disappointed, and that is the way it is.

I would not be able to comment on the political side, but I want to assure you, whatever fire department you are talking about in regard to the assignment of the fire truck it was made for the right reasons.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We keep in mind regionalization too, where we are really going to get a bang – the number of communities that a fire hall services, we keep that in mind when we are investing because it is good to invest and provide a truck that is going to provide a service to several communities than just one. Then, keep in mind that we have some isolated communities as well where that is not achievable.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and Cox's Cove is one of those isolated communities – 1983, I think it is; they are desperate.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you for that.

The last thing I was going to bring up – well, I have two more small issues. This is something I need clarification of, just for myself. There was a big project, over $5 million, in Frenchman's Cove in the Bay of Islands. It is in the Town of Humber Arm South but it is the community of Frenchman's Cove. I do not know if Cluney is aware of it.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is in water?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, water and sewer. It is a big project.

My concern, that I was asked to raise, is that in part of the establishment of the project itself, and because of the debt ratio, the waterline was decreased from six inches to four inches. There is a four-inch waterline there. Can someone explain to me – because most municipalities now there is always a six-inch waterline, unless it is going somewhere, but it is a four inch.

I will explain the reason why. Because of the four-inch waterline – and it is too late to change it now, but people asked me to bring it up – they cannot hook up a fire hydrant. There is not enough pressure. It is what they call the clean-out valves, the small slimmer valves that you usually see in most places at the end of line to clean out a line. Can you explain to me –

MR. O'BRIEN: Before I pass it to Cluney, when was that project completed?

MR. JOYCE: About a year ago. I think they are looking for a second phase this year.

MR. MERCER: Mr. Joyce, the project was an MRIF project that was approved in 2008. It was approved at $1.7 million. When they got into the detailed design – and you are right, the minimum size of a line to have a normal fire hydrant that we see around the Confederation Building here is a six-inch line. You can put a refilling outlet, if you want to call it that, for a pumper truck on a four-inch line.

When the design for the project was completed, the project was significantly over budget. The work that has been done so far – we have spent $5.4 million. It started at a $1.7 million project. In order to get water services – and water services is what they primarily needed – we have invested significantly more money than we initially started with.

If we had gone to a full six-inch line, it probably would have ended being a $7 million project, and probably a project that the community could not afford. One of the biggest issues we have with small communities like that is that for domestic flows – so household use, in terms of domestic drinking water, requires only very small lines. When we go to fire protection services, it requires a much larger line. Many municipalities do not realize that the larger line, in providing fire services, actually compromises your drinking water quality. That is why we have a lot of boil water advisories that you mentioned earlier. They are as a result of stagnant water in large lines whereby chlorine decays and you get disinfectant by-products formed such as THMs and HAAs and those sorts of things.

Municipalities have to realize that there is a balance between providing fire protection with normal fire hydrants and that sort of thing and good-quality drinking water. You have to weigh that balance and you have to weigh the cost. That is what was done in this particular case.

MR. JOYCE: I will explain why: It is because probably six months ago there was a fire and they could not use the fire hydrant. They had to put the line in the salt water.

MR. MERCER: With a four-inch line, you can put a filler pump on that line so you can actually fill a pumper truck.

MR. JOYCE: What happened was when the fire was up, they had to fill the truck. It takes fifteen or twenty seconds to get the water out of the truck. Then they had to try to fill the truck. By the time they filled the truck, it was fifteen or twenty minutes to fill the truck. A few people asked me to bring it up.

You cannot change it now. The water line is in. What the people are realizing now is that it is not what you call fire protection. You have to fill the truck and then you have to let the water come out of the truck, and fill the truck again. It is not your normal fire hydrant.

MR. MERCER: It is not an issue of pressure. It is an issue of volume within the line. Filling the pumper truck, I would suggest, through a three-inch hose that is going to come out of the salt water and into the truck is probably less than the four-inch line that is running in the community.

MR. JOYCE: Not when you can use the pumper. That is not correct, no, because they actually had to do it. I was there.

MR. MERCER: Unless they are filling the pumper truck with more than a four-inch line out of the ocean, which I suggest is probably not the case –

MR. JOYCE: They are, yes. They are using the regular hose that they would on a six-inch line. I was told to ask that because it is a concern. There is nothing you can do about it now.

The other thing about the project in Frenchman's Cove – and again, you may be aware of it – is that when the project was done, the phase was completed, the road through the town was paved in, probably, November.

MR. MERCER: It was in November, yes.

MR. JOYCE: The road is just about gone. It might be a year. I do not even know if it is a year old. It might be a little over a year old, probably. The road almost has to be replaced already. From my understanding from Transportation and Works, they have not signed off on the project because the road is so bad.

Are you familiar with that? What can be done? That is a big issue now because there are people down there who have new pavement, with the great project in the last year, and now have to drive over roads that is tore up. Last summer, it had to be patched. Within a year, the pavement had to be patched in a lot of places.

MR. MERCER: Yes, I am aware of that. That was a situation whereby there were three kilometres of asphalt removed. The contractor ended up paving that stretch of road in late November under very wet conditions. As a result of that, we think the asphalt has gone through a significant amount of fatigue cracking and deteriorating really rapidly. We have had a number of discussions, and there are a number of letters written to the contractor. It is our view that it is a warranty issue.

When that contract was awarded, it was awarded on the basis of being completed over two construction seasons. The contractor, through his own devise, decided to do it all in one season, put himself into the position of having to pave the road in November as opposed to waiting until the following spring. He did have that amount of time in his contract to do so. However, one of the big issues we are facing is – our officials in Municipal Affairs had suggested that we leave the road gravel over the winter; however, it is a Transportation and Works road, they demanded that the road be paved that fall.

While we can, from one perspective, pin it on the contractor, he did not really have a lot of choice because Transportation and Works were saying we are not satisfied to have that road gravel for the winter. So, they put him in the position of having to pave it.

MR. JOYCE: Is there something going to be done with it? That is what is being asked me.

MR. MERCER: At this point in time, I think the contractor has agreed to go in and cut out and replace some of the worst sections that have deteriorated.

MR. JOYCE: It may not be completely redone, the whole three kilometres?

MR. MERCER: It does not look like that, no.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

A last question, Minister, and you can supply this later. Would you ask the department for the amount of money that was budgeted last year for Capital Works that was not spent, can you get me a breakdown on that? The amount allocated last year but is a carry-over for this year.

MR. O'BRIEN: I can tell you that now.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will be carrying forward from past budgets because there is a mesh. We have some projects that could go back as far as 2008, 2009, but we will be carrying forward about $120-odd million in work this year; probably $125 million, $128 million, somewhere in that vicinity. That is all carried forward but it is not all last year. You cannot break it down that way.

Some of the projects, because of certain issues and complexities, are carried forward over two and three years, some of them four, so it is hard for us to break that down for you, Eddie, to be honest with you.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will be bringing forward around $125 million, not counting whatever – in regard to this year's commitment authority, there is only a percentage of that that will actually be done this year because of the nature of the projects. So, it is always a rolling number because we work on cash flow more so than we do on commitment authority.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, that is it.

I want to thank everybody for attending, ministers, the officials all throughout Newfoundland, especially in Corner Brook that I deal with, just to pass on how grateful – and I hate to say it as the critic, but I do see major improvements in some of the municipal affairs in towns, you can see the drinking water, as you mentioned, and roads and all of that. As you mentioned, every year you can see there are changes and always new requests because that is just the nature.

Thank you very much, and I am sure we can all work together. Sometimes we will have our disagreements and that is fine, too. That is all part of it. We are all fighting for our municipalities, but you guys have to take care of a department and you have rules and regulations. With us, as politicians, we do not really look at that sometimes.

Thank you all for your assistance over time, and thank the officials on the West Coast also on my behalf.

MR. O'BRIEN: I would like to thank both of you for your words as well in regard to my staff. We are always considered to be a big department out in that world of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are a big department when it comes to projects and monies, but we are not a big department when it comes to staff.

I should have been able to answer your first question in regard to the number of staff in Municipal Affairs and Fire and Emergency Services. I knew it approximately, but we have a small staff, a very efficient staff to do great work for municipalities. We are here not to stall projects, not at all. We are here to make sure they get the best value for the people's money for the municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador and something that is affordable to the municipalities.

I would like to, as well, commend my staff. I came in with no background in municipal affairs beforehand. I had never served on a council, but I tell you, I know municipal affairs now because they stuff that information into me each and every day. They have been a great help to me as the minister.

It has been a pleasure to be the Minister of Municipal Affairs for this period of time, however long it is going to last. I would just as soon stay in here forever.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie. Thank you, Minister.

Do we have anything else from our Committee today?

If not, I will ask the Clerk to call the first heading, please.

CLERK: We have passed the first one.

CHAIR: Okay, we have passed the first one.

CLERK: 1.2.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.01 carry?

On motion, subhead 1.2.01 carried.

CLERK: 1.2.02.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.02 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subhead 1.2.02 carried.

CHAIR: Can we agree to do them inclusively?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Inclusively.

MR. JOYCE: We came in one year. We had a discussion and two left. We reduced the minister's salary to zero.

CLERK: 1.2.03 to 4.1.06.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.03 to 4.1.06 inclusive carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.2.03 through 4.1.06 carried.

CLERK: The total.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal Affairs, totals heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs carried without amendment?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff this morning for your time and your briefing. It was very informative. Again, for your participation this morning, and all of your staff, we thank you so much.

I would like to remind our Social Services Committee that we meet again tomorrow morning, Thursday, April 26, with the Department of Education.

I want to thank everybody for their time this morning.

Can I have a motion to adjourn, please?

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.