Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie Verte – Springdale, substitutes for Tony Cornect, MHA for Port au Port, for a portion of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North, substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Welcome, everybody, to the Social Services Committee.

This morning we will hear from the Department of Education. Just prior to beginning, I am going to ask each Committee member to introduce themselves, starting with myself. My name is Glenn Littlejohn, the MHA for Port de Grave.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo – La Poile.

MR. KIRBY: Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North. I am subbing for Gerry Rogers.

MR. CRUMMELL: Dan Crummell, MHA for St. John's West.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA for Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, the beautiful district of Port au Port.

CHAIR: Just a couple of points before we begin, Mr. Minister. When speaking, could all Committee members and staff be reminded that they should identify themselves prior to speaking? Wait to see your red light come on first; it is for the purposes of Hansard. When your red light is on, you are on the air, as they say. Thank you for that.

Minister, we will allow you fifteen minutes for an opening comment, if you so desire, sir. Before starting, Minister, would you like to introduce your staff?

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you very much.

Clyde Jackman, the Minister of Education, and MHA for the District of Burin – Placentia West.

I will ask my staff to introduce themselves.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Janet Vivian-Walsh, Assistant Deputy Minister for Primary, Elementary, and Secondary Education.

MR. PIKE: Darrin Pike, Deputy Minister.

MS CLARKE: Ingrid Clarke, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure.

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Departmental Comptroller.

MS MAY: Heather May, Director of Communications.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, ADM, Corporate Services.

MR. COLE: Jason Cole, Manager of Budgeting.

CHAIR: Clerk, can we call the first heading, please.

CLERK: Heading 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Heading 1.1.01.

Minister, if you may.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you very much.

The staff has all introduced themselves, but I want to make a special mention – right down on the end is Ingrid Clarke and as she indicated she is the ADM for Infrastructure. We know all the work that is going on in infrastructure these days, but Ingrid is here under special circumstances. She does not normally use a wheelchair, but there is wheelchair in front down there. Ingrid had a really bad fall recently. As a matter of fact, she fractured her femur and she has been off for a while. I think Ingrid is typical of many of the people who are in the public service. Even though she has been off on sick leave, she is available through all technologies and the telephone. So even though she is off, she is on. She is to be commended for that.

Mr. Chair, it is a pleasure for me to be here. Most people would know that in my former life I was an educator. So getting out of fisheries is a task in itself, surviving it is the second task, and going into education is certainly the return of a love for me. Education, as far as I am concerned, and I know a number of people on both sides of government have spent some time in education, there is not a more valuable field that you can be in. I know yourself, Mr. Chair, you have worked with a lot of young people in your role in recreation. I do not think there is anything that people can take more pride in than in working with children.

I also do not think that anyone can question government's commitment to education. Put all politics aside and if you look at what has been invested in education over the past number of years, if you look at where the budget has gone, the budget for education now has increased by 44 per cent. Even this year, when we are operating under fiscal restraint, there is an additional $18 million that has gone into education.

If we take a look at where our investment per student has gone, it has gone from $7,400 to $13,200 per student. I have said on several occasions in the House when I have spoken that I have taken it with real pride to be part of the time when we provided free textbooks and we eliminated fees for students. Just this past Friday, I spoke at the Federation of School Councils, and the MHA for St. John's North was there. One of the people who spoke had been president of that association for a number of years and she said it was something that they had been lobbying for the longest time, and it has been implemented.

Again, I say to everybody, just put the politics aside of it. I know that when I was in the school system, every September it was a chore for many parents to have to come up with money for textbooks and fees, and that is a burden that is lifted off of them. Our student-teacher ratio is strong. It is one of the best in the country. Our student assistant provision is there. I believe it was in 2010 that we increased the number of hours, some 25,000 hours of additional student assistant time.

We have invested in our K-3, our Early Learning Strategy, and one of the challenges that we face right now is having the space to put bums in seats. It is a simple as that. In particular, this particular area in St. John's, the Avalon area – Gander is another one – we face the challenges of having enough space to put these students. Also, then if you look at the infrastructure projects that are on the go in Carbonear, in St. Anthony and across the Province, we continue with our infrastructure engagement.

Also, I have set, as a matter of course for myself in this portfolio, a couple of things that I want us to tackle, and we have been having meetings and so on and so forth around these particular issues. One that I certainly want to address is bullying. I want to address the drug problem that exists in our school. I will tell you, where I came from on that, as an MHA, I am getting more calls from parents looking to get their kids into treatment centres. Now, they are not school-age children. They are twenty-ones, twenty-twos, twenty-threes, but their problem did not start within the last couple of years. Oftentimes, it may be related to the age that when they are of school age. I am not saying that drugs are that prevalent in school, but it starts at that particular age. So we have had some discussions with the RCMP and RNC around that.

Inclusion is another one. The latest announcement that we have made, which I am extremely proud of, and that you will get some e-mails counter to that is the introduction of the My Gay-Straight Alliance resource that has gone into the schools in Grade 7 to Grade 12, acknowledging that many students struggle with their sexual orientation. We know that the potential suicide rate amongst this population is extremely higher than the norm.

It is like someone said to me that they thought it was a matter of choice. I said to them: I have five children, and I can tell you one thing, if one of my children comes to me and they say that they are gay, I am certainly not going to be the one turning my back on them.

It is a reality in our schools. When we say we have safe, caring schools, this is an indication we are not only paying lip service to it. We are in actuality supporting these kids as we should support all kids in our education system.

I will end with that. It is a pleasure to be in this department. I am looking forward to the discussions as we go through the estimates.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Thank you for your comments.

How we did it yesterday, gentlemen; Andrew, you have fifteen minutes as well, if you want, to begin. Then, Dale, you have ten minutes. We will go back and forth after that until there are no further questions.

Is that acceptable to you?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Okay, good.

Andrew, you have fifteen.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the record, it is Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo – La Poile. I would like to firstly thank the minister and his staff for being here and giving us this opportunity. This is my first Estimates Committee, so bear with me if I am a little disjointed at times. My plan was, I have made notes, I am going to probably start at the first page of the Budget book and go down. Hopefully, that will be okay.

The first question I would ask is in terms of salaries for the Minister's Office, section 1.1.01. There is $27,000 less in Salaries for the Minister's Office this year. How is that accounted for? Is there a reduction in staff?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Last year the revised one, starting there, is because there was no Parliamentary Secretary hired. Second, for this year the CAs that used to be paid through the office now are paid through the Legislature, therefore the reduction.

MR. A. PARSONS: One of the questions brought up yesterday was when it comes to the salary book itself, which was not released this year for whatever reason.

Can we ask for a document or an undertaking that all the salaries for the department will be provided?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Minister Marshall indicated that yesterday during Question Period, so we will provide that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to clarify, what is the timeline on being able to obtain that information?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I have learnt in politics never to give you a definitive timeline, but I will tell you that we will provide it as soon as we possibly can. This will not be lingered on for months or something.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

My next question in relation to the department as a whole would be: How many employees are currently within the Department of Education?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, that one – you go ahead.

MR. PIKE: There are 110 permanent employees and sixty-three temporary. This includes our eight interpreters for ASL.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Are there any other employees, like contractual, or does this 173 cover off…

MR. PIKE: This should cover off everyone.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are you able to give an undertaking to provide a list of all the employees and their positions within the department?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not see any problem with it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Are any of the forty-five temporary positions referenced in the Budget as being, I guess, eliminated fall within your department?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there does.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many?

MR. JACKMAN: Let me see now, I have them broken down here. I believe in temporary and – we have four positions, three which are seconded from education that will be going back. We have one temporary position and we have two training specialists with CDLI. Two of them, the training specialists are at present vacant and will not be replaced, and there is one management analyst in teachers' payroll.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, being new to this, I do not understand a lot of what these certain roles do. Can an explanation be provided as to what a training specialist in CDLI does?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we can provide you with that. You know what CDLI is?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Distance education, so we will provide you with that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are they related to certain areas of the Province?

MR. PIKE: We currently have four that cover the Province. We have four positions and we will move down to two. We have been managing with two training specialists to cover off the Province. It is supports for CDLI teachers and students. Those two people that we still have, two positions, will do the remaining training and still cover off the Province.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess an obvious follow-up to that is: Has there been any reduction in service because of the cut off from the four positions to two? Has there been any reduction in hours or services provided to these rural areas?

MR. JACKMAN: No, as the deputy indicated, these two positions have been vacant and we have been moving along. I think if you speak to anybody who is in CDLI, the thing has been progressing well and we expect that it will continue to progress well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving on to Corporate Services, on page 15.4 of the Budget Estimates document that I have here. It appears that there was, in relation to Salaries under Administrative Support, just under a $200,000 increase in what was budgeted last year and what the revised was?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the reasoning?

MR. JACKMAN: There was overtime payout; there were some additional summer students. Also, there was turnover in teacher payroll, and because of that there was some overtime that occurred. It was around – I can get Ramona to speak further to it if you wish – it seemed to be at T4 time. There was more time required, and as such, that was it.

Also, there was a managerial split once the two departments – we had the development of two departments, and so there were some additional costs that were incurred at that particular point.

MR. A. PARSONS: In Purchased Services under the same section, I noticed last year there was about $40,000 less spent than was budgeted. What was the reason for this?

MR. JACKMAN: There were some cost savings that were used to cover workers' comp. expenses, but if you look at Employee Benefits in the same section under 02, it went up by the same amount. That was taken from there, but to cover off the expense. So, the Employee Benefits in 02.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just further down there, when it mentions Grants and Subsidies under Assistance to Educational Agencies: Can you explain to me, being new to this, what these are, how they are used? Just a bit of –

MR. JACKMAN: In item 10?

MR. A. PARSONS: Item 10, yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, Grants and Subsidies.

Ramona, do you want to speak to that?

MS COLE: That covers some grants to some external agencies. Some of those would be the Council of Ministers of Education Canada, CMEC; the Federation of School Councils; a fair chunk of money under the Cultural Connections Strategy, which would be for arts programs in the schools, fine arts equipment, and that sort of stuff. So, it covers a group of agencies that we provide some operating grants to.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

There has been a reduction in the amount budgeted from last year to this year. Is there any reason?

MR. JACKMAN: Reduction in number ten?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: It is $55,000. It was the same last year.

MR. A. PARSONS: I think last year it was $2,269,000, this year it is $2,192,000. Is that less of a grant to an agency or?

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, you are down in 2.1.02.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

The Community Education Network that operates out of Stephenville, we have reduced their grant by $60,000. They do duplicate type of work. Now they still have a large pot of money that they operate from. So that is the reduction right there.

MR. A. PARSONS: That $60,000, is that related to an employee?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: It is not a job?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there any more specifics I could get on what is not going to happen with the $60,000 that was normally there? Because that would serve – I guess Stephenville covers off a large area, including my district. What is not going to happen this year because of that $60,000?

MR. JACKMAN: Our assessment of the situation, because of the program support they get from other agencies within government and the federal government, we do not think their program will be impacted but we can take a look at that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Further down under Policy and Planning, section 01. Salaries, there was roughly $100,000 less spent than was budgeted last year. Was there a position not filled?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there were two vacant positions for a portion of the year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would it be fair to say, given that the amount under the estimates this year is the same as was spent last year, those positions are not going to be filled or they have been eliminated?

MR. JACKMAN: No, they are not going to be filled.

MR. A. PARSONS: What were these two positions?

MR. PIKE: The vacant positions that will not be filled this year were two program analyst positions that we had. Actually, we had them when we had a project a couple of years ago. They stayed on the books but we have not used those positions. They have not been around in a while.

They were temporary positions that we brought in for – I cannot even remember the project that we were using them for but there was a demand and we brought them in temporarily to do a project. Then when the project ended, the temporary positions still existed but we were not doing that work anymore.

MR. A. PARSONS: I noticed under the same section, Policy and Planning, Transportation and Communications, only 10 per cent of the budgeted amount was spent last year.

MR. JACKMAN: Is that 03?

CHAIR: 2.1.03.

MR. A. PARSONS: In 2.1.03.03. Transportation and Communications, $24,000 was budgeted, $2,400 was spent. What would be the reasoning on that?

MS COLE: That is travel money that is there for the department to assist the agencies, the school districts, and whoever with their strategic and annual reports. During that last fiscal year, there just was not as much need to travel out to those areas to assist with it.

MR. JACKMAN: You are going to find, if you look through the Estimates for 2012-2013, a lot of our travel has been reduced. That is one of the areas we are looking at as a cost-saving measure.

CHAIR: The last question for this section, Andrew; the last question for these fifteen minutes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Fifteen minutes is gone already?

CHAIR: Yes, sir.

MR. JACKMAN: Now you know why we stay here sometimes for seven hours.

MR. A. PARSONS: Pack a lunch.

My last question, while we are on this section. It is still under 2.1.03. Policy and Planning, Professional Services, $111,100 was budgeted but only $15,000 spent. What would be the reasoning here?

MR. JACKMAN: These are allocations for external consultants that are needed from time to time. Take up on it this year was low, but we did have some take up. One of the things we have mentioned is we are doing a review of our Safe and Caring Schools. I believe it was $26,000 that was used for that. We budget for it. It is not always used, but we need to have it there if there are times that it is required.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale, you have ten minutes.

MR. KIRBY: Again, it is Dale Kirby, MHA, St. John's North.

I just want to go back. Mr. Parsons was asking questions about 2.1.02.10 Grants and Subsidies, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees. Does that line still include funds for the Federation of School Councils?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: The T.I. Murphy Centre is included in there as well?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: The Learning Disabilities Association of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. If you want, we can give you a list of the ones we fund.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

So the funding has been reduced. The minister noted $60,000. Just sort of eyeballing the difference there, it does not appear to take into account – the entire amount is closer to about $77,000 I believe, the reduction in funding from the $2,269,300.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There is $17,000 as well in reduction to the Canadian Education Association, which is a national body that assists with research in education. That is an area where we have other ways of doing research. So, that is another reduction.

MR. KIRBY: What would be the other ways then that we would be doing research rather than having the Canadian Education Association doing it?

MR. JACKMAN: The demand changes from time to time and we felt that if we are looking at some cost-saving measures, we can carry out research within our own department and do some things within house. We have other things in here that we carry out in-house and this is one of the examples here, another example.

MR. KIRBY: Would I be correct to say that the funding has not changed for the Federation of School Councils and the other two organizations?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it has not changed.

MR. KIRBY: It has not changed at all. Would we be able to get an itemized list then of –

MR. JACKMAN: Of the groups?

MR. KIRBY: - the groups and the funding for each of those.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

Thank you.

I just want to jump ahead a bit because you did talk about, in response to Mr. Parsons's question on reduction in staff, that there were these training specialists in the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation whose positions were unfilled and now they are going to be eliminated.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I guess that would explain in – like I said, to jump ahead to 3.4.03. Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation. Does that account for the $100,000 or so drop in Salaries there?

MR. JACKMAN: You are at what?

MR. KIRBY: Line 3.4.03. That is the line –

CHAIR: Page 15.12, Minister.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 15.12, that is the head that deals specifically with CDLI.

MR. JACKMAN: In Salaries?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 3.4.03.01. Salaries.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

MR. KIRBY: It is about $100,000 reduction.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: That is where that – it takes that into account.

I am just wondering, more generally, are there plans for the development of courses in new course areas that currently do not exist or are not offered by the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation in the near future?

MR. JACKMAN: It is funny you mention that, because myself and my communication person were talking about it when we were coming across this morning.

CDLI is always evolving. As some of our schools get smaller, the demand is there. They are always looking at opportunities as to how you can offer more courses. Specific plans, yes. Delivery of in-servicing and that type of thing is happening more through CDLI. We can offer it now.

What is the school over there we went to and made the announcement, over on Bonaventure Avenue?

OFFICIAL: Brother Rice.

MR. JACKMAN: Brother Rice. It is interesting to take a trek over there sometime to see what is happening in CDLI, and to see that there will be more courses offered.

Music, for example, is being offered now to more and more schools. To see that from Brother Rice you can have someone like an Alan Doyle who will come in and put a session off for someone who is in Croque on the Northern Peninsula, just shows you where CDLI is going. There are always reviews being done as to how we can offer more of these courses. I expect as technology evolves more and more we are going to see changing how education is delivered.

MR. KIRBY: By and large, the mandate of CDLI has been to offer these courses to rural and remote areas of the Province where there have been a variety of problems. Whether they are extremely small class size, problems with teacher recruitment and so on, to sort of fill in where the education system is, for various structural reasons, unable to fill the need for students who need certain courses in order to graduate.

I am just wondering, in the past there has been interest from students, and certainly I have spoken to educators who have expressed a similar interest, in there being some provision or at least investigation of the provision of the delivery or availability of CDLI courses in urban areas of the Province. Has the department been mulling that over recently, whether students in St. John's or other more urbanized areas of the Province might be able to prevail of these courses? I am just thinking about students, in particular students who are unable to fit into the current education system in urban areas, for whatever reason that may be.

MR. PIKE: Over the last number of years, certainly the mandate of CDLI is still primarily focused on access for rural education but two trends have been occurring. One is the resources at CDLI have been developed with a theme of being accessible by all students in the Province, regardless of whether you are in a small school or not.

A couple of other points on that; CDLI, and I do not know the last count, but about 100 schools out of 140 high schools were accessing CDLI to varying degrees – obviously the small schools to a large degree and the mid-sized schools to a lesser degree – around specialized courses for the larger schools. If you look at CDLI's impact or footprint, it is pretty broad if you look at the number of schools with high school students in it.

The other component you are talking about, we do have students in urban areas accessing for special medical reasons. That has not been a growing trend but certainly a trend that CDLI has reached out to. Any time there is a student, for medically-documented reasons, who has challenges attending school, the resource has been provided in a number of our large schools. We would have students in St. John's right now, which is our largest centre, be offering courses through distance education.

Back to the minister's point, the evolution of CDLI is one that we see – and not only the evolution of CDLI, the evolution of technology assisting students in the general population is certainly a trend that we are going to see on the increase.

MR. KIRBY: I was personally involved in this, so I have some personal knowledge of the community-university research alliance that existed between CDLI, Distance Education at the university, the NLTA, the Department of Education, and other partners.

There was a multi-year research alliance that existed where we did research in this Province that is recognized internationally, really groundbreaking stuff around the impacts of the delivery of distance education, whether that is by CDLI, by the College of the North Atlantic, or by Memorial University. Unfortunately, with all grants that are limited by time, that money has now run out as of 2011, I believe. If there is anything going on with the Killick Project for E-Learning Research now it is just cluing up.

I am just wondering if the department has plans or if there are initiatives planned to continue to do that sort of research in distance education that we have become internationally known for in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. PIKE: There have not been any requests for research funding to continue some of that research you were involved in and other researchers at Memorial. There have not been any requests that I am aware of, that have come into us looking to extend that research, but I am sure it would be something that the department would look seriously at.

MR. JACKMAN: I know personally, thinking of where technology has gone. Just the other night I was watching Star Trek, and I keep thinking of Star Trek because back in the 1960s when Kirk would open up his thing and talk to Spock people did not ever realize that it was going to be here. I was reading an article yesterday on Marconi's daughter who said her mother used to keep telling her that one of these days everybody is going to have one of these boxes that they can speak in to.

Your point is well taken, and any advances we can make in that particular area I would certainly more than support.

Back to the deputy's point; there has not been a formal application, but I can assure you, if it were to come to the department it would certainly get my support.

MR. KIRBY: I do not want to go over time here. I would just like to say that we should absolutely commend the staff and the Department of Education for the work that has been done with CDLI. I know it is difficult work and it is often uncertain territory, like Star Trek, where you are going where no person has really gone before; but I think we are going places where people in the rest of the world would like to go. I think that is really important. I am very proud of the work that we have all managed to accomplish.

Maybe I will just ask one more question, and then we can go back to my colleague. There has been a lot of discussion in the House of Assembly, especially around petitions about broadband access, Internet access, cellphone access and this sort of thing. I am just wondering, if we find ourselves limited on occasions in the provision of distance education through the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation in regions around the Province, are there limitations that we are encountering as a result of the limitations in broadband and Internet access in rural and remote areas of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN: I was in a school where distance education was ongoing, and my take on it is that anywhere in the Province where there has been a demand for distance education the provision has been there. I am not aware, and I have not had any presentation that would say there have been obstacles to additional courses because of access through broadband.

Now, there are limitations because of a course that somebody may want to put in and having the technology to administer that, but I think that will evolve. Certainly, I have not encountered it.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just so I am fully educated here - pardon the pun - what falls under Employee Benefits? Is that normal – just to make sure I understand what Employee Benefits is comprised of. It is section 02 Employee Benefits, and there was $83,000 spent. What does that make up?

MR. JACKMAN: That is for a workers' compensation cost.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Nothing else falls under –

MR. JACKMAN: Severance?

MS COLE: There would be some small amounts in there for training for employees in the division. Employee benefits throughout the department would include training costs, conference fees, or educational sessions for employees. So there is a small amount in there for that, but the bulk of that activity in Corporate Services would be workers' compensation payments. All workers' compensation payments for the entire department fall under that one account.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I guess the question I have is sort of a broader question. Last year we went over budget by about $100,000. What steps can we take to make sure that we stick close to the budget, especially in times of trying to constrain spending?

MR. JACKMAN: Which one?

MR. A. PARSONS: Administrative Support.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Last year it was budgeted just over $2 million and it went roughly just over $100,000 over.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know this year the budget has been increased. What steps can be taken to ensure that we do not go over?

MR. JACKMAN: I suppose you do as much as you possibly can, but if there are worker compensation issues that arise over our – if there is additional training that is required, well those are things that we have to make provision for, and thus you budget for it.

I think under the fiscal situation we have right now we are all being asked, as ministers and departments, to fine tune as much as we possibly can, and that we will do. As I said to you, all staff are being asked and we certainly will review – like transportation. If there are areas that we can tighten up on, we will tighten up on them.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to move over to the next section in Corporate Services, which is the Information Management and Community Access Program, 2.2.01. This is the CAP program that has been discussed; you are seeing it a lot in the news. Is this the same one the federal government has chosen not to fund?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there any changes on a provincial level to address this?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, right now one of the things I have directed staff to do is to stay engaged with the federal government to see if there is an appetite to review and revisit that. What we will do as a provincial government, I am not certain at this particular point, but we have to continue ongoing negotiations.

Our stake in this on an annual basis is how much, deputy?

MR. PIKE: Ramona would be able to answer the question with a better breakdown. The amount in this budget section includes not only the CAP funding but also our funding to run the Division of Information Management program. So it is not just pure Community Access Program.

The breakdown – and I do not want to say a number and be wrong, so I will let Ramona say it.

MR. JACKMAN: Your question is specific to CAP?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Ramona?

MS. COLE: The federal revenue number that is there is comprised of two amounts. One for CAP and one for what they call CAP Youth Initiatives. They are going to continue to fund the CAP Youth Initiatives at 100 per cent. That provides salaries for youth to be placed in CAP sites around the Province, to provide training for the people who come in to use the site, and to assist them in using it. That piece is not being changed.

There is $550,000 of that revenue figure is the piece that relates directly to CAP, which is the piece that they are saying they are not going to continue. There is about $300,000 in that activity in total – on the bottom line, the $749,000 – that relates to our Information Management, which is a departmental and entirely provincial piece.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to make sure, I want to continue on because this is a subject obviously that has a lot of people in my district concerned. We do still take advantage of CAP sites.

Are there any CAP sites closing that you are aware of?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

The federal funding has been reduced by $550,000. What are we doing to make up for that loss in revenue? Is the Province going to top up to match that?

MR. JACKMAN: At this particular point, we have not fully accepted that they can rid themselves of the responsibilities. Our inquiries back to the federal government are to see if there is appetite to revisit this. I will await discussions and see what the outcome of those things are, then from that we will make some further decisions.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would it be fair to say the CAP sites will not close until we at least hear back on what the federal government is going to do?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just looking at the Property, Furnishings and Equipment under the same section, this is section 07 under Information Management and Community Access. I notice last year we budgeted $2,600 but spent $70,000. What would the additional purchases have been under that heading?

MR. JACKMAN: There was a reduced grant. If you look at item 10, I believe it was, you will see a reduction there but then if you look at 07 you will see it was an increase. That was a bulk purchase of computers that went in there.

Again, if I could just indicate to you; Grants and Subsidies reduced by the same amount that number 07 went up, therefore it was a bulk purchase of computers.

MR. A. PARSONS: Basically, what was supposed to have been spent in section 10 was spent in section 07.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, I am very far from an accountant. Why would it be classified in 07 as opposed to 10?

MR. PIKE: Grants and Subsidies are Grants and Subsidies to the sites, so what we did is proceed on that bulk buying power. Rather than the individual sites buy the computers, we bought them and then shipped them out. We got a better deal on the computers, so it is just a smart finance decision.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Yes, it makes sense.

CHAIR: Just for the record, Mr. Pollard replaced Mr. Cornect?

MR. POLLARD: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am moving over to Primary, Elementary and Secondary Education.

MR. JACKMAN: What section is that?

MR. A. PARSONS: That is section 3.1.01, the first one there.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just some general questions I have starting at the top. In the revised budget for last year, 2011, we spent just over $300,000 less than was budgeted. Why would that be?

MS COLE: That is the result of various increases and decreases throughout the system, like more vacant positions, more substitutes or replacements. It is actually only 0.1 per cent of the total budget. So, it is kind of hard to provide a budget that comes any closer than that in terms of your actual expenditures, your revised.

MR. A. PARSONS: Basically, there were fewer teachers or substitutes.

MS COLE: No, there would have been some reduction in teaching units due to decreasing enrolment. There would be annualization of that because there would have been some teaching units came out of the system last year. There would also have been any salary increases offsetting that. There are various ups and downs.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under section 3.1.01.10 Grants and Subsidies, there is a section there for School Boards. Last year we budgeted and spent around $421 million. This year it has been upped to $432 million, which is roughly say a $10 million increase. What is the increase taking care of?

MR. JACKMAN: One, it is because of the 4 per cent salary increase. That will consume a major part of that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there anything else other than the 4 per cent increase?

MR. JACKMAN: Ramona, you can speak to this.

MS COLE: Yes. Some of the teachers who are in the system are actually at a higher point and grade, higher step levels and higher grade levels than had been expected.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

On the next section, still under Grants and Subsidies, Supports to Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, last year $124,000 less was spent than budgeted.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. A. PARSONS: Section 3.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess there is no section, just under Grants and Subsidies there is a list there. In the budget for Supports to Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, last year $871,000 was budgeted, roughly $747,000 was spent. This year it has been estimated at $711,000.

I would ask, why was there a reduction in what was spent last year as opposed to budgeted, and why is it lower this year?

MR. JACKMAN: With the closure of the School for the Deaf, that is the phasing out of teachers' positions that were there.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many positions would that make up?

MR. JACKMAN: How many came out of the School for the Deaf?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: From last year to this year it is just a reduction of one.

MR. A. PARSONS: One less teacher?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: One less teacher and they are absorbed through the school boards.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Institutional Schools, in the same section, there has been an increase in roughly $100,000. What is this for?

MR. JACKMAN: Again, one of them – and Ramona can speak if there are other ones – would be the 4 per cent. Plus, at the youth centre there was a sick leave payout. There was an extra unit required because of sick leave.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew. We will come back to you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I am going to move down now to 3.1.02 School Board Operations. Before I get into specifics, I remember that when we moved to the current configuration of the school districts, we did that for reasons of efficiency, I believe. I am just wondering if the department has done analysis to determine whether or not indeed there have been administrative, executive-level, or staffing efficiencies achieved overall across administration of schools across the Province since we moved from the previous configuration of school districts, school management if you will, to what we have now.

Do we know if we have saved money by going to four boards, I will call them?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, in terms of a formalized assessment, unless I am mistaken, there has not been one. In terms of ongoing assessments, the department and I, myself, meet regularly with the CEOs of school districts. Since coming into this position, I have met with all of the school boards, except for Labrador, which I intend to get to and have a meeting with.

We are not only talking to the CEOs in this particular case, we are talking to our school board trustees and chairpersons of those boards. We take some of our direction from them. I think efficiencies have been made, but in regard to your question: Has there been a specific assessment done? No, there has not.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Now, if we look at the same item there, 3.1.02 School Board Operations, and we go down under 10. Grants and Subsidies, the third item, Student Assistants, we are budgeting less now than we did last year for the provision of student assistants. Is there –

MR. JACKMAN: There is a reason for that. It is where student assistants get laid off during the Easter break. That is when Easter break falls. As a result of the layoffs, that is a savings that is realized there.

MR. KIRBY: I do not fully understand that. Can you elaborate on that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I will get Ramona to explain it further.

MS COLE: It is just basically the timing of the Easter break, because student assistants do not get paid for those days during Easter. Easter was in early April this year. Next year it is in late March, but payroll for that period gets processed prior to the Easter break. So we have two Easter breaks being processed in the same fiscal year. It is just timing. There is no reduction in the level of student assistants, absolutely none.

MR. KIRBY: Perhaps we should get the minister to enter into negotiations with the Holy See to see if we could get that to happen all the time. We could save a bunch of money – maybe not.

Moving down to the next one, Transportation of School Children, which the minister is aware I have an acute interest in.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, too much interest.

MR. KIRBY: Again, we are budgeting more for transportation. Is that because the minister is actually going to follow my petition and change the 1.6 kilometre regulation?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is not.

No, what has happened is we have some contracts that are up for renewal. We have two types of operations. We have private contractors and we have school board owned. What happened is we have some of these contracts that are up for renewal, so we have budgeted money in for that. Plus, in some of our school board operations of busing, there are some demands there, therefore the increase.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down again to 3.1.03 Learning Resources Distribution Centre: Can you explain the function a little more clearly of the Learning Resources Distribution Centre?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, it operates out of Pleasantville.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Everything that is sent out to schools, from our new skills trade program that is in the school, to textbooks, to interactive white boards, all get distributed from that centre.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

If we look at what was budgeted last year versus what was spent, it was less. Was there a reason for the under expenditure last year?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. For part of the year there was a vacant position there, just for part of the year.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, that is what is going on there.

Over to the next page at the top, 3.1.04 School Supplies, we are anticipating a savings of somewhere in the order of $500,000 – well, not quite, but there are significant savings anticipated there in any case.

Is that because we purchased textbooks last year that we will not have to this year?

MR. JACKMAN: That is part of it. The Skills program that we have as well, some of that equipment has been purchased therefore you will see a reduction in it. You are right there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Then last year under 3.1.05 School Services, there was over-expenditure when it came to salaries for that.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there was one employee, there was some sick leave paid out, plus there was some severance paid out.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down there, there was an under-expenditure again on Transportation and Communications but we are budgeting up again.

MR. JACKMAN: We have meetings both in St. John's and outside of St. John's. When you hold them outside of St. John's, there is more expenditure. This was the particular case here, that some meetings that had been planned to be held outside of St. John's were held within; therefore the reason for the savings.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

The next two heads here, 3.1.06 School Facilities, the first one is Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities. The subsequent item, which is closely related, is also School Facilities and that is New Construction and Alterations to Existing Facilities. On the surface, it would seem they both involve obviously alterations to existing facilities, but obviously new construction is there.

I am just wondering, generally speaking, how does the department prioritize what alterations are made to which facilities, and how we are going to move forward the various requests for new school constructions? How does that advice come into the department? How is that advice acted upon? Is it in the end a ministerial or Cabinet-level decision that determines whether Portugal Cove – St. Phillips is going to get the new school?

MR. JACKMAN: The important thing in all of these situations, you remove politics from it. Politics has no place in determining what needs to be done in schools. We have school board trustees who work jointly with the CEO and the board. They develop their list of priorities. They come to the department and then we go through the process.

In terms of large constructions, it does go through a budgetary process. There is no doubt about that, but as indicated, and I indicated in my opening remarks, boards came to us this year with priorities around what is happening right in this particular area. The simple fact of it is if we do not start to move on those types of things, in three, four, or five years we are going to find that we are out of space.

We are putting modules on schools that were built just a year or two ago. Really, I suppose, now what we have done is we have gone with the Finance Department statistics branch. So our numbers are pretty well accurate as on now and projections. Based on the numbers that are given to us through the Stats agency, and the recommendations that come from school boards, then we take it forward but priorities are determined and brought to us by board officials.

MR. KIRBY: One of the most significant lines here, certainly in the minds of a lot of parents, would be on page 15.8, 3.1.07 School Facilities – New Construction and Alterations to Existing Facilities.

Purchased Services, last year we budgeted over $51 million. We spent $29 million, and this year we are estimating $74.5 million. Could we have an explanation of the under spending of that line last year, which schools were impacted, the communities, whichever were impacted by that under spending and then now?

I know the language in the Budget Speech at least, was potential new school construction. So, maybe if you could provide clarity around that.

MR. JACKMAN: I will tell you, the reason being that, and I suppose if you look at any major infrastructure piece. What was often happening was, you came out and all of a sudden you said: yes, there is a new school here, it is $25 million. When, really, the preliminary planning work had not been done.

Now what is happening, there is a step process that says: okay, potential – because we do not know yet where the site is going to be in Paradise for the next school. We do not know what the configuration will be. There has been no planning work. So when we say potential, now we are going out to do all of that groundwork. Once all of that groundwork is done, the eventual – when you are going to be guaranteeing the school is when the tender goes out. All of the preliminary work will be done prior to that because things can change, and as such.

One thing is certain; the population indicates that there has to be schools constructed in these particular areas. It is just that there is preliminary work that has to be done, site selection. The consultants have to develop the plans, and go from there.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. JACKMAN: I will say, you mentioned the difference – if I could?

CHAIR: Yes, continue.

MR. JACKMAN: I will give you an example. Regina, for example, in Corner Brook was supposed to be opening in September of 2013, but they have been informed now that is 2014, because there are some deed standards they have to meet. So as you are constructing these schools things change. The money that was committed to Regina this year now will not be required until the following year; therefore, the deviations in numbers that you see here from time to time.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back, but before I do I am going to dig a little further into this one.

If there was $8.9 million budgeted but $4.9 million spent, what was planned but actually did not happen last year?

MR. JACKMAN: There are changes in the cash flow. If you want to speak to specific projects – do you want to do that Ramona, or Ingrid? There you go.

MS CLARKE: Yes, some of the projects did not move along as quickly as we had anticipated. The West End High School, we did not spend as much money on that as we had anticipated; St. Teresa's, Exploits Valley High in Grand Falls-Windsor, St. Anthony, Davis Elementary, just to give you a few examples. That money now has been moved out to 2012-13. So, it is just a cash flow issue.

MR. JACKMAN: The projects that Ingrid mentioned, I am just looking at it here. You are looking at some $15 million or $16 million that would have been pushed out because of the delays that she has mentioned, but the projects are ongoing and they will be completed.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just going to the school you mentioned, Regina High School, which is in Corner Brook, where does that project currently stand? What was the plan, and where is it?

MR. JACKMAN: I was saying it was slated to reopen in 2013. Now that has moved to 2014 because of some deed standards they are looking to meet.

MR. A. PARSONS: The junior high is planned to open in September, 2014?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

When we look at extra money in the Budget for this year, it is really money from last year that was not spent because of delays of whatever nature, it is just pushed over.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and carried over.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: And for the new projects that we announced.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is the same logic or reasoning that is for Purchased Services as well?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is the same thing.

MR. A. PARSONS: Explain to me again – and this is a real question – Professional versus Purchased Services. What would the difference be there, because I do not really know?

MS CLARKE: Professional Services is the hiring of consultants to design these projects. Purchased Services is to actually hire contractors to carry out the work.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

I am going to go back again to where I left off last time, which was section 3.1.01 Teaching Services. Where I had left off, I believe I am at the section called Substitute Teachers. I notice we see an increase of between $350,000 and $400,000 for this year for substitute teachers.

What is the rationale for that, given we have heard the terms declining enrolment? Why more money allotted for substitute teachers?

MR. JACKMAN: It would be the same thing as teachers. You have the 4 per cent increase. Also, you have substitute teachers who have gone for retraining. Their pay scale has gone up.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering right now if you have a number on how many retired teachers are currently teaching in the school system.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not have a number. Do you know offhand, deputy?

MR. PIKE: Not very many.

MR. A. PARSONS: Can I get an undertaking to provide that number?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. It is very few. I recall signing off on one, for example, in the northern part of Labrador because after repeated attempts to get someone there, they just could not. It is in very extreme situations.

MR. A. PARSONS: These are all signed off by you? In your authority as the minister, you have to authorize that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: In this year's Budget it was mentioned there is $70 million in initiatives like class-size caps and needs-based teacher allocations. Is this $70 million included under the $537.8 million in Salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: Where are you now?

MR. A. PARSONS: It is more of a general, I guess. In this year's Budget there was $70 million announced for different initiatives under the Department of Education, like class-size capping. Where would that be? Where is that found under?

MR. PIKE: If I understand the question correctly, you are talking about paying the extra teachers in the system versus the change in the formula or the allocation approach. Most of that would be found under School Boards as part of the teacher salaries. Extra teachers would show up under our teacher salaries piece.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the $9 million that was announced in Professional Development found under the same heading?

MR. PIKE: Professional Development is found in a couple of places. We do it under page 15.11. You will see two sections there: 09 and 10. The first one is the school districts. We allocate per teacher to school districts to deploy teachers. Section 10 is what the Department of Education would allocate. There would be a variety of other little things in there that we would do for new curriculum implementation, as well as a variety of other things under 10.

The school district allotment is 09 and the department would be for new curriculum implementation and some other programming initiatives under 10. There is where you will see the bulk of what we would call professional development allocation for teachers, which was changed a few years ago but has not changed. There is no decline under 09.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under the same section while we are there, Professional Development, I noticed there is a fairly sizeable decrease from what was spent last year – actually, what was budgeted as well – to this year. Where are these savings found?

MR. JACKMAN: There have been some programs that have been concluded, say, around cultural connections. There are some other programs we have some implementation of, say, for example, a new religion program or a new health program. Those will take a bit more time to roll out. As a result, there are savings there.

MR. A. PARSONS: Going back to section 3.1.02 School Board Operations, I am looking specifically at section 09 Allowances and Assistance. There was just under $58,000 less spent than was allotted for in the Budget for 2011. What would normally fall under this?

MR. JACKMAN: This is usually bursaries. This is one that I can speak to from my own district's perspective. At one point in some of our remote communities you have people who would apply for bursaries. In one of my communities this year the family, rather than sending the child out, they moved with the child. People were availing of these types of bursaries less.

MR. A. PARSONS: These are the bursaries for children who have to move to –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, larger schools. You would probably have some from some of your remote communities.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have some, yes.

So there are basically fewer children last year moved than you had anticipated?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not know, between myself and Mr. Kirby, I might have missed a question here.

The Regular Operating Grant under School Board Operations is almost $1.3 million than what was in Budget 2011. Where are these savings coming from? Are they salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: No, in the department we have had traditionally a contingency fund of $1 million or so that might be special projects that someone might apply for. This is one of our cost-saving measures. What we will do now would be that if a school board, for example, has a special project they want to do then they apply through the regular channels.

Basically, what we are doing here is providing more accountability around project application. We will go through the regular process of budget and Treasury Board type of things if there is a special project that you want to go through.

MR. A. PARSONS: Before, the money was sitting there.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Now, it is not sitting there. They can still get access to that money.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they would make application as would be any other type of project. I believe one example you used was there was an application to do some signage work or whatnot. That would have been taken from that contingency fund there. Now, they would make an application to the department and we would go through the regular channels to get monies approved.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just so I get the number right, was it $1 million in the contingency fund, roughly?

MR. JACKMAN: I believe there was.

MR. A. PARSONS: How much of that was used last year?

MR. JACKMAN: That one I am not certain of. I do not know if you have it, Ramona?

MS COLE: I would not have that right here with me, but we can certainly go back and see, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Once I get that number, I guess the follow-up to that is: Depending on if there was $1 million there and we used X number of dollars of that million, has that amount been allotted anywhere else to cover off the possibility that it is going to happen again, that we are going to spend that money again?

MR. JACKMAN: That would depend on, I suppose –

MR. A. PARSONS: What department, or what section would it move to now?

MR. PIKE: The minister referred to it, a large chunk of that was part of our cost- savings initiatives. So the money was not moved to a new – you are asking if it was moved over to another section. It was not moved over to another section.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, savings.

MR. PIKE: Savings.

MR. A. PARSONS: We will need to find out how much was spent last year to anticipate it?

MR. PIKE: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Following up to that Regular Operating Grant, just under that is the Administration Grant which is $564,000-and-change less than budgeted last year, the same thing. Is this savings?

MR. JACKMAN: What we are doing is, part of our overall thing, we are asking school boards to commit to some of the savings as well. We have asked they report back to us as to what those things would be because, again, we are going to stick to our commitment that we are not affecting frontline services.

Part of our cost-saving measures is that we would ask school boards to come forward with some savings, and this is what we have asked them.

MR. A. PARSONS: What have they come back with in terms of savings? Has it included salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: They haven't yet.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: This is something that we have asked them to do over this fiscal year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

We need to find out what they are going to cut or where they are going to save to make up this amount.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: If I might, just one last question, if Mr. Kirby would not mind.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has there been any indication whether this is going to include jobs? Have they been told that you can include jobs or to find it elsewhere?

MR. JACKMAN: All I am saying to them is you indicate to us where you can make these savings and then –

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I just want to go back to a couple of items; under 2.2.01 Information Management and Community Access Program, page 15.5.

Conceivably, the federal government may decide to continue on with its determination that it is going to cut $550,000 from the Community Access Program. We hear the federal government, in particular, saying they do not need to deliver some frontline services any further because, for example, young kids are always on the Internet anyway, that is how they can fine and apply for a summer job.

My fear would be that there are low-income people, of whatever age in the Province, who are unable to access the Internet at home due to personal expense or affordability issues. Does the department see itself, or are there discussions ongoing about finding the $550,000 to fill the hole that the federal government is digging? Perhaps we could have a couple of examples of the sorts of sites that we are talking about where public Internet access is provided across the Province, particularly outside the Overpass.

MR. JACKMAN: You want a list of them?

MR. KIRBY: No, just provide some sorts – we are talking about public libraries, are we –

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking about public libraries, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Other places that would have this would be?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, there are schools that have them because in some communities – and I know schools saw this as an opportunity, that you could have a library in your school plus the technology at the particular time and point. Generally, though, they are in libraries and school libraries that would be accessible to the public.

MR. KIRBY: So, you are actively entertaining the notion that we would find this money provincially –

MR. JACKMAN: The two steps that we are taking is, one that you previously asked: Are there discussing ongoing within the department, as to what we can do if? That is ongoing.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: The second one is that I have directed officials to speak with our federal counterparts to make them aware of our situation and see if they are willing to revisit the situation. Then after that we will make a final determination.

MR. KIRBY: To decide whether the flags are going to stay up or not?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I do not predict anything about the flags, but we will see where it goes from there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thank you.

I just want to go back; I had jumped ahead to School Facilities 3.1.07. I am just wondering if it is possible for us to get a list, a comprehensive list of which –

MR. JACKMAN: Projects in schools?

MR. KIRBY: Which schools from last year were represented in the under spending in the line here from the $51,000 to the $29,000 roughly, and which amounts? Also, when it comes to the $74.5 million that has been budgeted for this current budget, if we could have a comprehensive list of the schools and the amounts, the coinciding or corresponding amounts?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: Only for things that are tendered. We would not reveal the amount we budgeted for a project that is not yet tendered.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. PIKE: You would be revealing the amount before you go out to competition. You want to get the best value for your dollar, but we can do a list of all the projects we have already done. We can do a list of the projects even though we would not have a cash amount to be able to put next to it.

MR. KIRBY: You would not want to be making those estimates public, specifically, because so-and-so may be wanting to get the –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: They know the amount you have in.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I can see the rationale.

MR. PIKE: After it is done, we make it all public. So it is not an issue.

MR. KIRBY: Now, mind you, the various school districts have already sort of tipped their hand by saying we need $20 million for X construction in any case, right? So, one might assume that the department uses –

MR. JACKMAN: Well, that is the exact reason, because tipping our hand when we do not have all of the groundwork and things done is what has gotten us into projects, schools or otherwise, that have started here and ended up, up here. So, thus the reason for potential; we are going to do all the groundwork before things are finally announced. When it goes to tender, that is when people will know the actual amount.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Is there any documentation available that shows an average percentage or shows comprehensively what percentage we have seen in terms of overruns?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, one thing they will say within government is the Department of Education is one department that really comes in close on what they actually predicted.

MR. KIRBY: In the lingo of the department, what is an acceptable level of cost overrun for major capital infrastructure investments for new school constructions?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I know that ours would be around 10 per cent. Ours is 10 per cent.

MR. KIRBY: Ten per cent?

MR. PIKE: No, no, just to qualify that. A Department of Education project would not be at 10 per cent. Our projects come out a lot closer than that. Our projected estimate on a project and our real estimate, typically – we had a couple of anomalies occur over the last eight years, but typically we have been pretty close to it. I do not know if we have an actual number where we have been on, but we have been less than 10 per cent on our projected versus our actuals.

MR. KIRBY: So you build a contingency into this estimate for overruns?

MR. PIKE: Yes.

You could have a late stage modification of a project that you would have to modify, a classroom or, so you have to build in an unforeseen circumstance or something you did not see in your design floor plan.

As you build the school you identify an issue where you go: Well, that does not quite work for the operation of the school, even though on the plans it looked good. Once you are building it you need to be able to make those modifications before you open the school. So there is contingency built in for those adjustments that we would make on – on any project there are always some adjustments that would occur.

MR. JACKMAN: Material costs, all these types of things. There is contingency built in.

MR. KIRBY: The 3.1.02 that Mr. Parsons was just – we were talking about this $1 million contingency fund. In the past year there were special projects or projects that were funded through this contingency. Could we get some examples of what sorts of projects would be funded from that allocation?

MR. PIKE: I might have to defer to Ramona on what it would be.

The project the minister referred to was signage for handicap spaces. A number of our schools did not have proper signage, so we funded 100 per cent and asked school districts to go out and make sure there was clear signage around handicap spaces. That would be an example of a project that would have came to us where we would have said yes. We did a provincial-wide roll out of ensuring that all the signs – in some cases it was painting of the parking lot; both with the sign, because you need the sign and the spot.

Some of our schools in the rural areas, it would just be the sign. That would be an example of a project that would have come forward. We want to do a provincial-wide implementation, even though it was a one-school district that came forward. That is the kind of example.

It could be unforeseen circumstances a district finds itself in. It could be a renovation project they were doing that came into unforeseen costs. If they come looking then saying: Well, the project is bigger than we thought it was can you help us out? It is more of the unforeseen stuff and then these other projects, like the signage for handicap spots.

MR. KIRBY: Would you include, say air quality and mould issues? Would you have paid for that? You would not have paid for that out of this fund.

MR. PIKE: Not out of this fund, no.

MR. KIRBY: Temporary facilities for students in the event that – no, you would not include that. So that is not what we are talking about.

MR. JACKMAN: My point to this one is there will always be ‘unforeseens' and if there is emergency funding, then we have generally found it. For some other things, rather than here is a contingency fund of $1 million, maybe in your prior planning some of these things can be worked out. I think this is, from my perspective, more a measure of accountability, if I could put it that way.

MR. KIRBY: Would travel by various schools to other provinces or –

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Nothing like that would be included in there?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

We go back to 3.1.06 School Facilities - Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities. We are budgeting up for Salaries this year over the previous one. Is there a reason why the expenditure is expected to increase there?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the challenges that are faced in – I suppose I can relate the full line. Occupational health and safety officers and engineers are difficult to find. They come and they go, as quickly as they come some of them, because they are being taken up by the private sector. In this particular case, we are looking at filling engineering positions and occupational health and safety.

I do not know, Ramona, if there is anything else you want to add to it.

MS COLE: In terms of the numbers themselves, there is an amount in there for an Occupational Health and Safety Consultant. We transferred the money from School Board Operations because we needed to have that position in place. That was the spot where we had enough money that we could do that. So there is an actual increase in there related to a position that was not funded in past years.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under 05 Professional Services, there was $2 million under-expenditure last year. Could someone elaborate on that?

MR. JACKMAN: In what, 05?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 3.1.06. School Facilities - Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities, line 05 Professional Services. You can see in the Budget last year is was $5.9 million and then we actually spent $3.9 million.

MR. PIKE: Just to draw your attention, 05 and 06, that split that Andrew asked about earlier –

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: – one being, in my language, consultants' fees, engineering fees, one being the contract fees. They will both link together as you see the decrease in both of those.

That is part of our challenge in the industry now of getting repair and maintenance projects out the door and being completed in a very competitive market, that consultants and engineering companies are under a heavy workload and the construction companies. This year in particular, we found it extremely challenging. You can see that both those numbers are significantly down from what we have allocated to what we are able to spend this year. We think we have that conquered for next year, and we should be in better shape to move it along in a better form next year.

You need to look at both of them together, right?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: The Professional Services and the Purchased Services. It is the same as Andrew's question earlier on.

Ingrid, do you have anything to add?

MS CLARKE: Those projects that we could not proceed with in the last fiscal year, we will carry them forward and that work will be done this year.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

MR. KIRBY: If I could ask one, just to cap that off?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: So, for this one, maybe instead of tipping our hand to the public tendering process, is it possible for this particular head and the following one that is on new construction, is it possible for us to get a list of the schools that were implicated in last year's budgeting – no figures – and the list of the schools that we are talking about for the upcoming year?

In other words, which schools were planned to have alterations or new constructions, which new schools or school alterations did we plan last year? Which ones did we not get to, if indeed that happened? Then, which schools are we looking at in the upcoming year, either building new or doing significant alterations on? Can we get a comprehensive list of at least those schools? The numbers, I can understand why they would be kept confidential.

MS CLARKE: I just wanted to clarify something. We might have proceeded with a part of the project; we probably just did not finish it.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MS CLARKE: If I give you a list, it is going to be a – the work might have been 50 per cent complete, or 90 per cent complete, or 5 per cent complete. So, it would be difficult, when you look at that list, to know how far the project proceeded, but we can certainly provide a list of projects that we were anticipating to be completed, or that amount of money that was allocated spent.

For instance, I will give you an example, on a major capital project we might have anticipated we were going to spend $9 million and at the end of the day we probably only spent $7 million.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

MR. JACKMAN: The projects that we are talking about here are known. The only thing is we do not want to compromise the financial stuff, but we will provide you with some information and then based on what you receive, if you need to speak to me on something further, no problem.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess this might be a silly question. I am just trying to figure out between 3.1.06 and 3.1.07 – both are School Facilities. The first one says Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities and I know the second one says New Construction, but it also says Alterations to Existing Facilities. What is the difference there?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I suppose one you could look at would be upgrades. Another one, I suppose if we wanted to, if you are talking about Alterations to Existing Facilities – Roncalli, for example, we were out there last week. They are taking off the whole front face of it. So one would be more or less for upgrades; the other one is really going to be, I will say, more extensive.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, obviously 3.1.07 is for your new facilities that you are building.

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, and larger projects, as well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under 3.1.06, School Facilities, that is the first one, just under section 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, we spent a fair bit more, even though in the grand scheme of this department it is not a lot, but there is a lot more spent than what was –

MR. JACKMAN: Photocopier: $15,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: What school?

MR. JACKMAN: That was in my district. No, I am only joking. I do not know.

MR. A. PARSONS: Mr. Chair, is that on the record?

MR. PIKE: It was within the department.

MR. JACKMAN: It was within the department. I am covered off by my deputy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, I noticed we went back to the normal expenditure this year, in this year's budget, so it is anticipated that we are not going to need any more equipment like that.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am quickly going to go back, just to cover off one question, under section 3.1.03, Learning Resources Distribution Centre. My friend has already asked some questions that I was going to ask about where it is located and its purpose. I believe there is just under $30,000 less for this year's budget than was budgeted for 2011 and I would ask: Where is that coming in? Sorry, that is under Salaries. So is that one less salary for this year?

MS COLE: The actual reduction in Salaries is just $8,000 from budget to budget and that is because the position that had been vacant has now been filled at a lower step.

MR. A. PARSONS: Perfect, thank you.

Under section 3.1.04, School Supplies, under that it states Revenue-Provincial, so I am assuming that is the amount that the government is putting into the department? Budgeted was $10,000 for last year, but is actually just about $90,000 received. What was the extra money –

MR. JACKMAN: Private schools use our resources, so this was payment for the textbooks that they purchased through our learning development centre.

MR. A. PARSONS: So that was not anticipated obviously that this money would be coming in?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they paid their outstanding bill; that is it. They owed money for textbooks and they paid it. It is as simple as that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there any other outstanding bills that we are anticipating coming in this year?

MR. JACKMAN: Not that I know.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just going to move down one section into 3.1.05, School Services. Under this section I note last year, under Salaries, there was about $66,000 more spent than was budgeted. Was that an extra position added?

MR. JACKMAN: No, that was for one employee. There was sick leave paid out, plus severance.

MR. A. PARSONS: So we are back to roughly around the same –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Transportation and Communications –

MR. JACKMAN: In the same –

MR. A. PARSONS: Same section –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Section 03 of School Services, there was about $30,000 exactly less spent than was budgeted for?

MR. JACKMAN: I explained that earlier. What that is, is the cost of holding meetings outside of St. John's is more. In this particular case here, some of the meetings that were scheduled to be held outside of St. John's were held in St. John's, so that was a cost saving – that is where it came in.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is that trend going to be used across the board?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

I know it is a bit more expensive, but it is only right that we should be holding meetings in professional development across the Province.

MR. PIKE: We actually had some weather problems on a couple of those meetings. They were not cancelled on purpose.

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not believe that weather issues have any issue in this Province. I dispute that.

Under the same heading, School Services, Supplies, again, there was a bigger allotment spent for Supplies than budgeted. What was that amount for?

MR. JACKMAN: That was for toner and there was a scanner purchased for digitalizing teacher certification records.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just looking at the revenues again, where there is a list of Revenue – Provincial. It is $59,800, so that is just a set amount that is transferred from the government, I guess, to each special section here.

MS COLE: That is revenue from teachers for teacher certification fees, appeals or whatever else, any fees that we have to collect in relation to the work of that division.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under School Facilities, just a general question, there has been some talk about Catalina Elementary possibly closing and this 37 per cent drop in enrolment. Was there a study commissioned for this?

MR. JACKMAN: What happens in this particular case, there are procedures and protocols that have to be followed by the school boards. The school boards take a look at enrolments and whatnot, then they go and meet with the communities, and then in a process they arrive at whether the school will close or not.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has there been any movement on a decision for the fall of 2012 in terms of Catalina Elementary?

MR. JACKMAN: No, there has not been.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there any anticipated decisions –

MR. JACKMAN: All I can say there is that the school board is continuing to do their piece. This is why the Department of Education would not get actively involved in the middle of that. That is something that you have elected boards, trustees, CEOs, parent communities, school councils, they disseminate information and then a collective decision will be made. It may be a decision sometimes that not everyone agrees with, but there is a process that has to be gone through.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Budget 2012, it was discussed or announced the allocation of funds for the feasibility of a new school in Gander. Does that fall under the $6.9 million that was announced in the Budget?

MR. JACKMAN: Where would that be?

MR. A. PARSONS: In the Budget, under highlights, $6.9 million for major infrastructure projects.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess that $6.9 million –

MR. JACKMAN: That money was previously allocated because the school board had previously come in. What they were looking for was some work that was going to be done on Gander Academy. A further investigation indicated that the population of that area is growing. It is the largest elementary school in the Province with some 950-plus students in it. As a result, they asked us to reconsider. So the money that was allocated is being, I will say, repositioned. We are talking money from what was there, now doing an assessment of the entire situation, and then a determination will be made from that.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, under that $6.9 –

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is not in that.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is not there.

MR. JACKMAN: No, no.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has that feasibility study been commenced?

MR. JACKMAN: We have just made the announcement the other day, so it has not started yet.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Budget 2011 talked about the extension and renovation of Gander Academy. Are you looking at extension and renovation or a new school altogether?

MR. JACKMAN: That is going to be the determination that comes out of this.

MR. A. PARSONS: Of the feasibility?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Budget 2011 talked about the refurbishment of Holy Heart, but it is not mentioned in Budget 2012. Where is that process?

MR. JACKMAN: I will have Ingrid speak to that.

MS CLARKE: Work will proceed this year for Holy Heart. We will be using our repairs and maintenance funding to proceed with the refurbishment of Holy Heart.

CHAIR: Last question, Andrew, for this round.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are welcome, sir.

MR. A. PARSONS: Budget 2011 committed $892,000 to complete the construction of schools in Port Hope Simpson and L'Anse au Loup. Again, it is not in 2012. Has this been done? Has this started?

MR. JACKMAN: Ingrid can speak further to it, but I think the work on those two schools is pretty well done.

MS CLARKE: Port Hope Simpson, that work is just about complete.

MR. A. PARSONS: Excellent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are welcome.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Continuing on then regarding new school construction, we have certainly heard a lot over the years about Virginia Park Elementary. I am just wondering what is going on there. The Janeway site has been rejected now and I am just wondering what is going on. What is the progress with Virginia Park Elementary? Because I know this must be ringing in your ears all the time. There is this quote that is always circulating about consultants saying that they had worse than or something approximating Third World conditions over there. I am not sure it is quite that bad, but it is certainly in dire need of replacement.

Could we have an update on where that is and when we might see some movement on the new construction?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot give you a date when we might see something, but I will tell you where it is right now is that a consultant has been hired. The school board has been keeping in constant contact with the school council there. The consultant has been asked to explore three possibilities. One is the existing site; second, there is a site in the White Hills that we want to take a look at; and thirdly, within, I believe, a kilometre of Virginia Park is Vanier. Is there something that we can do, to do some extensions to Vanier?

This has been ongoing for a long period of time. I can say to you that the Premier is very committed to getting this project moving and going. I have had discussions with her and her direction to me is: Look, get this work done and get it done as quickly as you can so you can get on with moving this project.

We will wait now for the consultant's piece, but the consultant knows the urgency of getting on with this. As soon as we get this back, we will move on it. I know this has been an ongoing issue for a long time and it needs to be taken off the table. So, as soon as we can get something done we will get it moving. There is a commitment there to make sure that those kids have a quality-learning environment.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

With respect to the Janeway site, is that what was found, that this site is not useable?

MR. JACKMAN: Will it be usable? I think it will. The fact that we are going to have primary-elementary students occupying that space – what was indicated was the asbestos in there. What happens in the future if we have kids who are out on the grounds playing around and some health issue arises, someone going to say: I wonder is it related to asbestos? We do not want to take that gamble. We are talking about young children, active, out around where the site was; therefore, rather than take any chances on it, let's move with one of these three options.

MR. KIRBY: Are you aware if government has seen it fit to take any legal action or other actions regarding the damage that was done to that site by –

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware. That would be something that Transportation and Works would have to deal with.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, just curious.

Moving on to page 15.8, Curriculum Development – it is immediately under the New Construction business – 3.2.01. I am not going to ask you the transportation and communications question a third time; I think you have probably answered that sufficiently.

MR. JACKMAN: That is where we are going (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

Under Professional Services there for Curriculum Development, what sorts of professional services are we talking about? Consultants to do what sort of work?

Subhead 3.2.01.05, Professional Services, what does that $17,700 get us?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I would have to get back to you with the specifics on that. It is obviously something that we could not do within house and had to go for professional services, but specifics for you, I can get back to you on that.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Then Purchased Services, under that, that is for human resources?

MR. JACKMAN: No, that one there, in our learning resource development piece that we are talking about, our Distribution Centre, the department has identified the space down there where they provide some in-service. Therefore, because we have that space, we do not need to avail of some other spaces around the city, thus we have had some savings realized there.

MR. PIKE: So part of the curriculum development unit is to bring teachers together to consult on new curriculum design, so you would rent meeting space from time to time. The minister referred to, we have actually just developed a room in the Learning Resource Centre in order to reduce our cost of having to go out and rent space.

MR. JACKMAN: Basically less rental.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under 10, Grants and Subsidies, who are the recipients of the grants and subsidies under this head, the $70,600?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not have that with me right now but we can certainly provide you that.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I am going to move over to Language Programs on the next page, it is 3.2.02 on page 15.9. Look at 06, we had an under expenditure last year there but we are budgeting what we had budgeted last year. What is the –

MR. JACKMAN: That is for the French First Language programs. There was less expenditure for translation, believe it or not.

MR. KIRBY: Oh, really?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, we are slightly over in what was spent compared to what was budgeted last year, but we have gone up by several hundred thousand dollars in the current budget estimates. Why are we increasing our expenditure there this year?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the reasons for the increase was that there was an increase in the number of French Immersion and intensive core French programs.

MR. KIRBY: Oh, really?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is one of them.

MR. KIRBY: Increased enrolment.

MR. JACKMAN: The other one, Ramona, do you want to speak to that piece?

MS COLE: The new agreement which came into effect early in 2011-2012 provided – the federal government changed the cost-sharing ratio. It was 70-30 and now it is 50-50. All other provinces have been under a 50-50 cost-sharing ratio for years.

In the new agreement now, they have said okay, it is 50-50 for you, but they agreed to leave their funding at $3.9 million. The Province put in the additional provincial expenditure to keep the cost-sharing ratio at 50-50.

MR. KIRBY: Is there some reason why we were getting special treatment from the federal government? Is this some way to get us into Confederation perhaps?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Thank you.

We have Student Support Services, 3.3.01. This is funding to support development, implementation and evaluation of programs for children with special needs. We have a reduction in the salary line there from $510,000 to $441,000. Are we missing a specialist?

MR. JACKMAN: We have in that division, I believe it is twenty-two people. Yes. What we have done there is that there were two people working on that, one person has taken on that responsibility now.

MR. KIRBY: Responsibility for?

MR. JACKMAN: It is a Student Support Services position.

Can you give me the specific name on that individual?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: They would be administering and co-ordinating the assistive alternate format materials. That particular job can be handled and absorbed by others in the division.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down to Supplies, we had an under expenditure of $50,000. Did a photocopier fall off a truck?

MR. JACKMAN: This is open to requests by people in the field and quite simply, that is requests here.

MR. KIRBY: Do you endeavour to bulk buy materials to have efficiencies where you can?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: One thing about our support for students with special education is that there are two or three things happening. Supplies funding there is both internal department stuff and things for students outside in the system.

There are a number of things that happen from year to year. One is just individual requests that are individualized around Johnny or Sarah. Then school districts from time to time will say, we would like to invest heavily in A or B.

A couple of years ago we invested a large amount of money. We moved money around to buy purchases for Special Education students. It could be resources for guidance counsellors where we will do that bulk purchase in one given year. There are a number of places where that money comes out of. You will see the money shift from year to year according to, one, the demand. Whether it is special equipment or resources, so they do not come at a different – or those strategic investments, when you decide this year we will invest heavily in that.

So you have the individual requests and the strategic requests that cause the money to switch from one section to another section, based on that individual request, what it is, and the strategic sort of thinking around: What will we invest in this year? We tend to move those dollars from supplies to other places or back up to supplies according to the finance rules on where it should come from based on the purchase.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thanks.

The next one, 05 Professional Services, there was an under expenditure last year. What professional service did we not avail of, or services did we not avail of?

MR. JACKMAN: There was not as much professional development delivered as was predicted.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Second, is that there was not as much travel used as was estimated.

MR. KIRBY: Under the next one, 06. What are the Purchased Services that we would have under this head?

MR. PIKE: Printing of documents. Any of our curriculum documents or resource documents, we would have printing charges. That would be related to publishing a new manual or anything, that kind of thing.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I hear a lot from my constituents about Autism Spectrum Disorder and children and families who are having to content with, I guess, a fall out from what happens when ones child or children are inflicted with Autism Spectrum Disorder. In a way, it seems to me that our model of teacher and student assistant is an artifact of the pre-inclusion era.

In other jurisdictions we have models of more triage in the classroom. You have specialized human resources, specialized individuals, individuals with particular educational qualifications and training that enable them to provide supports. For example, if you look across Canada, community colleges are training individuals to be autism support workers, specifically trained to support children with Autism Spectrum Disorder. In some school districts you will find that intensive behavioural intervention specialists or therapists are on the payroll of either the school district or working within schools in the classroom with children to, as I said, have more of a model where different people are fulfilling different functions.

I am wondering, has the department looked at moving to different or studied a different human resource model in the classroom for the provision of teaching now that we have moved to the inclusive model that we have?

MR. JACKMAN: Certainly, our investment in this particular area – and maybe one the staff will correct me if I do not get this exactly right, but over the last couple of years we have put about a million or so dollars into efforts to address autism in our schools.

Just a month or so ago there were some seventy-plus teachers who attended a seminar here in the Province where we had an internationally renowned expert in the field of autism who spoke to these educators and parents about what it is we can do to improve the lot of autistic children in the school system. We are always exploring whatever options there are, new models.

Our commitment of funds has been there. I do not know, Janet, if you want to speak a little bit further on it. What we can do to support that and if there are changes that will improve the situation, well, we will explore them and see what it is we can do.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: In terms of autism, there has been an incredible amount of intensive training and resources put in since 2009, and as the minister said, about $1 million.

In terms of trying to determine what is needed, there have been people here from the Geneva Centre, there have been those here from the National Autism Centre in the United States, and thus the experts have been consulted. There has been training of the student assistants in terms of – the knowledge has been greatly increased between the teachers and the student assistants. That is an ongoing thing and evaluated as we do it, as to what are the next needs. There certainly has been the consultation of what are the best practices across the nation, internationally, regarding autism.

CHAIR: Dale, can you hold that thought for your next round, please?

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. JACKMAN: If you want to finish your comment on that, there has already – Mr. Parsons?

MR. A. PARSONS: I am fine with that.

CHAIR: Okay.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Really, the frustration is that when I know there are families out there who are getting IBI or Applied Behavioural Analysis is another term to describe a similar therapy, are getting it through Eastern Health or in my district or another agency and then when their child goes to school the next morning, the level of skill expertise is not – student assistants have a certain amount of professional development but they certainly are not trained in the provision of those therapies in the way that somebody who has more of a formal education.

The frustration I am seeing is they can get it at home with homework help but they cannot get it in the classroom. Of course, with autism a lot of the times it is a missed opportunity. That is why you have this intensive intervention in the early years because you really want to help do what you can to facilitate development and so on.

I would encourage the department to look at other things that are being done in other jurisdictions because there is more we can do. As you have acknowledged, it is an emergent area where we are learning new things about the brain and so on, as the minister said, all the time.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: It appears, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to go to 12:00 o'clock. I was just wondering we have sat here now for two hours; does anybody need a break for five minutes?

MR. JACKMAN: I was going to mention it, Mr. Chair. I am not going to tell you why but I do need a break.

CHAIR: Let's break, and we will reconvene at 11:15 if that is acceptable to everyone.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for the break.

We did have some discussion – we are certainly going to go until 12:00 o'clock and probably beyond, as I was consulting, Minister, with our colleagues across the way. Do you wish to go to 12:00 p.m. and we reconvene or do you want to break now?

MR. JACKMAN: We will go to 12:00.

CHAIR: Okay, we will go to 12:00.

Andrew, if you may.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, I am going to go back to a general question, but I guess it falls under School Facilities. I understand Coley's Point has been inquiring about the possibility of a new facility. Is that something that is on government's radar this year?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is always on the government's radar, but in terms of announcements this year, it was not in our announcements. The board has identified it as one of their priorities. It is something that I know and I expect – I know that they will bring it forward and we will have to see where it goes this coming year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just going by again, in learning this process, the first step in that would be a feasibility study is commenced?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

So hopefully in next year's budget, under Professional Services, there is money allotted?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Again, going back to priority repairs and maintenance, what is the current status of the school in Charlottetown which has been a big issue?

MR. JACKMAN: The school board received the consultant's report yesterday. They are going through it right now. I have been speaking to Lisa Dempster and have been getting e-mails from her. As a matter of fact, I am thinking that I might meet with her this afternoon because she is going to be in town and give her the latest.

We have committed, whatever comes out of that consultant's report, that these students would go back into a safe learning environment. I cannot say what that is right now. We will just wait what comes out of the consultant's report and then that will determine the next steps.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

Just another general question – I believe this would fall under Student Support Services, 3.3.01. The CNIB lately has been looking for government's support for their hub – their library of alternative formats. Is this something that has been allotted under the support services for this year?

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware of that one, so I would have to get one of the staff who would speak to it.

MR. PIKE: Not currently. We have had a number of discussions with them on their budget and proposed plan. Basically, we have another commitment to meet with them. I think it is in the next couple of weeks, but I cannot remember when the next date is. We are basically trying to get information on their plan, if they have a good plan, if there is a commitment to federal funding – because they had some federal funding only for two years. Before the consideration from the provincial government, was to make sure we had something we knew we were committing to and we had a long-term plan, as well as the analysis from the provincial level on usage.

We have been talking to them. We have had a number of meetings with them. I am pretty sure there is another one scheduled to come up very soon – Ramona?

MS COLE: Yes, I believe it is early next week.

MR. A. PARSONS: Excellent.

I guess I am all over the place here. I am going to go back for a quick second to Curriculum Development, 3.2.01. My friend said he was not going to talk about transportation and communications, but I am going to ask that question because I want it on the record.

Last year, $20,000 above budget was actually spent, but this year we are cutting it by $20,000 compared to budget 2011. What is the thought process on what is going to happen there, how we are going to achieve these savings –

MR. JACKMAN: What happened is we have had some new programs that have come in. The skills program that we have introduced, the in-service has been done in those particular areas. Therefore, the demand is not there now. It is as simple as that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, fair enough.

Moving over to Program Development, 3.2.02, the section there was already discussed earlier under federal revenue. I guess you are saying it is part of a cost-shared, 50-50 – is that something that you figure out the amount on a year-by-year basis or is it done as you know what your funding is for a stretch of time?

MR. JACKMAN: This is federal revenue agreements, right?

MS COLE: I believe that is a three-year agreement. Janet, you might be able to confirm that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, that is my understanding.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just further to that – again, we have to be concerned when we are dealing with the federal government. What year of that commitment are we in?

MS COLE: This is the first year of the commitment.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Again, maybe this is a silly question but in terms of the amount of funding, do we put ours there and they match it, or do they put it out and we match it?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Hopefully, in a couple of years' time we will sit down and maintain at a level –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Across all of government, we have numerous of these types of agreements.

MR. A. PARSONS: Hopefully, again, this being the first time, when we sit down and do this process next year many of these questions will –

MR. JACKMAN: Come naturally.

MR. A. PARSONS: We will know what it is all about.

Just under Student Support Services, 3.3.01, I believe Mr. Kirby has already asked some questions on that, so again I am going to hope I do not ask the same ones.

Going down to Purchased Services here – did we touch this section earlier?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, just for further clarification for my purposes.

MR. JACKMAN: If you are looking at going from $132,000 to $153,000, there was a Conners' Rating Scales – it is an educational scale that is used to rate behavioural issues around ADHD and all of that kind of stuff. Thus, the reason for that increase is that was specifically carried out. A specific initiative aimed at a specific need, so that was conducted there.

MR. A. PARSONS: So that explains why the difference between Budget and Revised amount.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: For this year where there is a reduction, what does not have to be done this year that was budgeted for 2011?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I suppose if you want to get fine-tuned details about it, we can get it for you. As an example, the Conners' Rating Scale that I mentioned to you would not be required, and instruments of that nature may not be required. So, through a prediction, this is what we felt, based on what we have itemized that we would need, we figured that this would meet the need in the department for this coming year.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess a general question to this section. The NLTA just put out a press release, I believe, yesterday. I guess it was a response to the Budget where their statement was: No additional teachers, student assistants, training or professional development has been provided for the delivery of student support services and if the new inclusion philosophy is to be implemented as designed, schools would need extra resources in many areas.

What would be the response to that concern that they have expressed?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the things, I believe it is in twenty-five schools we are having a pilot –

OFFICIAL: For inclusion?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. How many schools?

OFFICIAL: For inclusion, it would be up to 132 as of this coming year.

MR. JACKMAN: We now have gone with an inclusion model in our schools. Coming from the educational system, there is no doubt there will always be ongoing changes around curriculum and issues. As research evolves around autism, or other types of learning disabilities and behavioural issues, you will always be adjusting.

Our commitment to education through increased student assistant support, funding through workshops for autism or other spectrum disorders, we have funded that substantially. My response to the NLTA with that is that will remain ongoing. Work with us, and we will come up with the best model that we can collectively in the Province.

We are not at odds with the NLTA on this. I think if the NLTA or anybody else were to go back and look at it – and like I said, put politics aside. Look at the investment in education over the last number of years, it has probably been one of the best that we have had in the Province.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering about the PASS program, Positive Action for Student Success. I believe there has been $1 million over two years committed in 2011. What, to date, has been spent on this program? Is there something that is new or – I am just trying to get a little more understanding of that specific area.

MR. JACKMAN: Do you want to speak to the program? I think it is a wonderful program.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It started in 2010 with monies through the Poverty Reduction Strategy. It was focusing on at-risk students and students who had been out of school, and trying to get them back. You are looking at credit recovery and credit rescue, those who have probably been unsuccessful in a course and then taking them from there, where they were, and making them successful. So you are looking at credit recovery and credit rescue.

In 2010, there were schools throughout the Province that were designated. There are seven formally, and some additional ones that school districts took on. It is a model that was known in student success throughout some other provinces as well in trying to address the needs in more of an individual way in a school setting, not as structured for those students to try to keep them engaged. So far, as the evaluation has gone through, it has been very successful.

MR. JACKMAN: I think there was a time when some of these kids would have just dropped from the system, fare-thee-well, do whatever you can. Now we are reaching out to those who are still within the system, who are struggling for whatever reason, and getting some of them to graduate.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to clarify, so the commitment for this year's budget matches what –

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It is the same match for that as well, yes. As I said, some school districts are also doing some additional units based on that model through their own allocation.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: You mentioned something that time which sort of jogged my memory. Maybe I will ask this question now so I do not forget it.

We are talking about children who are in challenging situations and so on. Of course, many of these children, their families are tenants of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. In the Budget Speech this year, it was noted that a program that is provided through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation which provides stipends to families for school attendance, that this would be continued and it is a successful program, or the implication is that it is a successful program.

I know the funding is provided through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and not the Department of Education, but I am just wondering: Has the Department of Education looked at this program to see whether or not genuinely it has demonstrable impacts on graduation rates for students whose families receive that funding?

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware that we would track that through the Department of Education. It is something I will follow-up on. I will tell you one of the things that I have had some discussions with my deputy about is that we invest money in some of the lower, social economic areas to try and keep kids in school and whatnot. One of the things we have discussed is tracking to see how many kids are graduating, are attending post-secondary schooling.

More specific to your point, it is something I want to follow-up on myself. It is an interest I have in other investments that we make in the Province, to see that we do not just invest and then hope. We invest and see what has actually happened.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

I would like to believe that the investment of those funds does lead to improved graduation rates for children who are tenants (inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but I would still like to see it concrete though.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I would like to see that there are demonstrable impacts on achievement on an annual basis, because a child could attend school and not achieve nor graduate in the end.

Which brings me to another point, because in my work as an academic in the past I have studied the situation of students who – well, in the absence of official status, I guess they do have official status. I mean the students who are labelled by the education system or by individuals in the education system as being in Level IV are really in Level III. They are just back for another bat at Level III. That can be a second bat at Level III or a third bat at Level III, or God help us, further time in Level III. That has been called Level IV and sometimes it is called Level V if a student is back for a third time trying to finish senior high school.

In the work we have done, and certainly it has been communicated across the country, we have seen that oftentimes these are the children who are falling between the cracks. While there are allocations made and funding made for teacher allocations in schools, it would appear in some instances, at least the ones we researched at Memorial, that these students are not getting the same physical space. So those children are meeting in the lunchroom or they are meeting in the library, because the times when they are supposed to meet there is no classroom available to them.

They are relegated to course offerings that are not necessarily their preference because there really isn't a place for them. There are problems with scheduling. There are situations where students have a patchwork, checkerboard sort of schedule of classes. You did not get your math last year, so you have that at 9:00 a.m. Then you have to have a social studies course, so you have geography at 1:30, but there is no classroom for you in the school. There is no space for you in the school. You are not supposed to be loitering in the hall. If the library is not available, where are you supposed to go?

There are questions around the supervision of these students. A lot of these students go for a smoke off school grounds, or they go over to Tim Hortons or McDonald's to hang out. Then, in the end, they just pip off for the rest of the day because it does not seem like there is any point in staying in the general proximity of the school for all that time. I can obviously go on and on and on, there are so many issues with these so-called Level IV students.

Has the department undertaken any new initiatives, or are there any plans for new initiatives to address these students? Because, to me, if we truly have this workforce pressure that is upcoming, with 70,000 new positions coming available and so on, it would seem that these bright, young people whose skill is really underutilized in the current education system, they would be folks that we would need; we need every single Newfoundlander and Labradorian to fill our labour force needs in the future. It pains me to see so many of these young people not succeeding.

I think I had a Freedom of Information Act request from the department that showed the graduation rates were about 20 per cent less for students who went to Level IV versus students who are graduating – making it through in the prescribed amount of time.

Is there any plan afoot to deal with that or has any research been done by the department itself on the status of these Level IV students and what might be done to help them?

MR. PIKE: I wish I had brought the list. We started, obviously, some thinking around what we call alternative pathways to graduation. Actually, our PASS initiative that was referred to earlier on was around supporting these students who have challenges going through the system on a regular time frame, and I wish I had the list of initiatives, but certainly –

MR. JACKMAN: We can certainly provide it.

MR. PIKE: We started, in November, supplementaries to public exams targeting the highest needs areas so students could come back, and we allocated units to capture the most students we possibly could so they did not have to stay for the full year.

So we think our concept – and I am sure we will build on it over the years – is not one sort of solution, here is a Level IV student, because they have a variety of needs, but our approach has been to create what we call multiple pathways to graduation and have multiple solutions to meet the different needs that a child would have who did not successfully graduate Level III on time.

What is the answer to that? Obviously, our support through distance education, we have done extra support to support students who just did not get the right marks to go back, so they could actually write the exam in August through supports through distance education and CDLI resources; and November; and the additional units to have compressed schedules on target core areas.

So those are three initiatives that come right to mind – and the PASS would be the fourth. I am sure I am missing a couple, and I am sure in another year or two we will add to that list and we will five or six what we are calling alternative pathways to graduation. Certainly, the department is aware and working on trying to be creative around addressing as many students as we can around, but there is no one solution, that magic bullet. The students do not represent a homogenous sort of – they are all different and you have to try to get to those needs as particular as you can.

MR. JACKMAN: I think another thing that has happened is that some of these kids who may go to Level IV and then not finish, they go into the workforce and they soon recognize that I need that piece of paper. I think some of them are coming back for the GEDs and these types of activities.

If there is one thing as an educator that I am pleased with in today's environment, is a lot of the students who struggled through academically in a workforce are doing extremely well now. I can list off to you examples of young people who went through my school system who were not university bound, but as the guy in the paper, the ‘streeter', said to reaction to the Budget – one of the guys on the left, I cannot remember his name, he referred to that trades people now are being looked at differently than they were ten, fifteen years ago and a lot of these people who are Level IVs are advancing and going into those and leading very, very productive lives and doing quite well financially in their jobs.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back to Student Support Services, 3.3.02, Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority. I am just wondering: There is an extra $119,000 in Grants and Subsidies for this year, what the rationale for that is?

MR. JACKMAN: Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority, you often hear people refer to it as APSE; it is a school that operates out of Nova Scotia that all the Atlantic Provinces have partnerships in. They deal with students with visual and hearing impairments. Your take up on it, by different provinces, vary from year to year. We had a pot built up because we probably had not used as much; that pot is run out now. So to stay a part of that, we needed that investment.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

I am going to move on – I guess it is on the same page, but on section 3.3.03, Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students. I think we may have referenced this earlier, but under a different section, so I just to ask about this again.

The cut in Salaries is due to – I guess there are less teachers needed with the closing of the school. Is that what it was?

MR. JACKMAN: If we look at the $492,000 and then if we go to what is being estimated this year, there was a salary continuance and a severance package for two employees that was budgeted for. That now is finished. Therefore, we are estimating a requirement of $374,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: The slight difference of just say $17,000 or $18,000 in what was, I guess, in excess last year of what was budgeted, that was due to severance?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and I am expecting that it – do you want to speak to it more specifically?

MS COLE: The slight increase there in 2011-2012, we actually hired an additional interpreter for a portion of the year. This is the budget for the interpreters who are out in the school system as a result of the kids from the School for the Deaf going into the regular system. We identified a requirement during this year for an interpreter for just part of the year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) going from $492,800 up to $510,000; the difference in the Estimates for 2012-2013 is that the severance and salary continuance will not be paid out.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess the difference in Supplies here between what was budgeted and what was spent looks like it was $50,000 even.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, this was a special request for applied materials and whatnot for some students.

MR. A. PARSONS: Can I get a little more specific on that? Again, it works out to such a round number.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

Do you have the specifics?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: (Inaudible) FM systems that the students use.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, so were these at the School for the Deaf?

MR. PIKE: A number of students in the system are deaf or hard of hearing. Hard of hearing students use FM systems. We updated the FM systems into newer technology.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. PIKE: It would not just be students with hearing impairments. When the closure of the School for the Deaf occurred, there were very few students left remaining. This would be beyond those students. Some of those students would not be using – FM systems would be communicating through American Sign Language, which is the roving interpreter.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Just a question, does the department anticipate any added costs given the inclusion strategy that has been announced?

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of?

MR. A. PARSONS: Are you anticipating extra costs associated with the strategy, like the implementation of the strategy? Like with the sign language –

MR. JACKMAN: Well, yes.

Janet can speak to the specifics of it, but go back to the basic concept of having students work with their peers. That is an individual student's needs and then school boards will look after those accordingly. Will there be costs? Yes, there will be additional costs, but with the closure of the School for the Deaf, I expect that would be balanced out.

MR. PIKE: Andrew, are you talking about Minister Burke's announcement? That would not be ours.

MR. A. PARSONS: Oh, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Not ours, no, no. I thought you were talking about specifics around the School for the Deaf and students with hard of hearing.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to move forward to Educational Programs, section 3.4.01. Student Testing and Evaluation. It seems to be my favourite section of every part, Transportation and Communications. There is a big cut there. How is that going to be obtained, or I guess realized?

MR. JACKMAN: It is just simply that. We are going to see if we can reach that. This is our estimate and this is what we intend to do, to see if we can cut overall travel costs by that much.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would that involve less testing or just making everybody come to the metro area?

MR. JACKMAN: That certainly will be – for this year, we are going to be carrying out CRTs and the public exam testing in this particular area. That will save us about $100,000.

Also, what we have committed to having realized that – that will be a savings this year, but we also realize we are going to be having these sessions carried out across the Province and the three selected sites have been Gander and Corner Brook. While it is in St. John's this year, in all likelihood it will be in one of the other sites for following years.

MR. A. PARSONS: This is something – again, I have said it all along, this is my first time at this. Has that been the standard before, it was always in St. John's or was it?

MR. JACKMAN: No, no it has been – where was it held last year?

MR. PIKE: Corner Brook.

MR. JACKMAN: Corner Brook last year.

MR. A. PARSONS: It was done in Corner Brook. So last year students had to travel to –

MR. JACKMAN: Teachers.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just teachers.

MR. JACKMAN: These are teachers who do correcting of our criteria, reference tests, and public exams.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, and this year you are expanding to three sites?

MR. JACKMAN: No, no. This year teachers will come to St. John's, last year they went to Corner Brook.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, and next year to Gander.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

The increase in Professional Services from $690,000 to $790,000 in section 05, what falls under this specific increase that is budgeted this year?

MR. JACKMAN: I will get Ramona to speak to that one, or Janet, one of you.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH: The increase there in 2011-2012 is related to the public exam marking boards and the CRT marking boards. It was higher than anticipated, so that would account for that particular piece.

We are anticipating an increase of about $100,000 to bring our budget more in line with the spending that we have had over the years. It has cost us more than anticipated and thus what we have now put in for 2012-2013 is more in line with what we will need for those services.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to get down to the nitty-gritty, when you look at there was an increase of say $65,000 last year, what are these costs made up of when they are unanticipated? Is it due to travel? Is it due to accommodations?

MS COLE: No. The Professional Services line actually pays the costs for the teachers. When we bring the teachers in for the marking boards we pay them a certain amount per day because it is over and above their normal duties. That is the cost for the teachers in there.

The travel is in 03, which we have just discussed. The cost of the teachers – and we actually bring in some students to do the data entry and that sort of thing – has been higher than $690,000 in past years so we have just put it up in order to meet what we actually need for it.

MR. A. PARSONS: When it gets higher, what is it just more people needed or it takes longer to correct? Is that it?

MS COLE: Teachers are being paid more, obviously, with the salary increases. Also, travel costs are increasing with fuel and whatever.

MR. A. PARSONS: Travel would be under Transportation, though?

MS COLE: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, that is fine. I am just trying to get down to its most basic –

MR. JACKMAN: I can tell you one thing, if you speak to teachers who have served on these marking boards, they will tell you it is probably the best in-service they have received while they are in the education system.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know a lot of teachers from my district who have had that opportunity and they like to avail of it.

CHAIR: Andrew, while you are looking I will go to Dale because we are getting nigh to the hour.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Just to go back to that very briefly, under 3.4.01 Student Testing and Evaluation. Ms Cole referenced that students would be employed in the input of data. Are we talking about high school students or post-secondary students?

MS COLE: No. We generally try to use post-secondary students for that because it would not be appropriate to have high school students, obviously, keying in data related to high school marks.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, I see.

What would be the recruitment process for recruiting those students?

MS COLE: Those are the same recruitment process as any summer student. Basically, we take in resumes and we match them up for it. It is a very short period. It is only an eight-day period because it is concentrated on the eight days of public exam marking, so we just use our regular summer student recruitment.

MR. KIRBY: There is a requirement for that to be publicly advertised, is there?

MS COLE: Not for summer students, no.

MR. KIRBY: Those positions are not publicly advertised?

MS COLE: No.

MR. KIRBY: You would basically take what you have on file or something to that effect, would it?

MR. JACKMAN: And people will submit resumes. Just last night I had a student who sent in a resume to me and said they are looking for summer work.

MR. KIRBY: If there are any students who are looking for work they should e-mail you, is that what you are saying?

MR. JACKMAN: No, they e-mail their MHA first.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, I will make a note of that. I will call Open Line about that tomorrow morning.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, thankfully, not many of our students listen to Open Line.

MR. KIRBY: I want to go back quickly to where I was speaking at length about the situation of disadvantaged and underprivileged school kids. In fact, a lot of times it is not necessarily impoverished children or children who come from lower social, economic strata and so on, or children who come from families who are challenged in various ways, but, in fact, a lot of times we have young people, at least I have seen this in the school system, where particularly gifted and overly rebellious in some instances, children who are very bored with the school system and it does not suit them. A lot of times, you will find that these young people will far excel their sort of contemporaries.

I bring this up because during the provincial election campaign I had the privilege of participating in a debate that was held by an organization that you folks should have some familiarity with: the somewhat oddly named CEO, a Coalition for Educational Opportunities. For perhaps the best part of the last decade, they have been advocating for – and their interest is the Northeast Avalon, the St. John's area – having an alternative arrangement for schooling. I know that they have made representation to government over the years.

MR. JACKMAN: I met with them.

MR. KIRBY: You have met with them.

At this debate, all three of us there representing the major political parties indicated our interest in pursuing their plan and trying to work something out. There are lots that have been done in other jurisdictions – very innovative things going on in Alberta in particular. I am just wondering if the department – first of all, if there are any funds allocated in here anywhere to move that along, or would you think that would be specifically funded through the Eastern School District here in the St. John's area.

MR. JACKMAN: My intent, meeting with them, first and foremost is that you have an interest in that particular area. If there are things that we can move along and improve the education system, that is what all of these folks are here about. We listen to them and see if there are ways we can co-operate with the Eastern School District, to put in place some of the initiatives that they are talking about. The District School Board office site down there, there are alternate settings for alternative students.

Specifically, beyond the meeting, we have not moved on anything that they have brought forward, but certainly we are reviewing it and seeing if there are ways that we can implement some of what they are talking about.

MR. KIRBY: These Level IV students that I was referring to earlier, a lot of those students are those students, and a lot of those students are not succeeding. There are other issues around this issue of scheduling. If you think about young mothers, for example, that arrangement is not working well for them. Then, young people with sort of interests that are divergent from the standard curriculum, those sorts of things.

MR. JACKMAN: I think as well, for some of these kids, there are other complications that are happening in their lives beyond academics. Through the process of ISSPs and whatnot, you try to map out the best possible plan you can for these kids.

MR. KIRBY: So you are continuing to review what it is that they have –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, you always review things, whether it is autism or inclusion, or whatever; you are always exploring and looking to find better ways to implement programs for students.

You can appreciate that you get an array.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: I can remember when I was in the school board there was a program that came on, and everybody figured this was the solution that was going to have everyone reading. Then there was the push to pour money at it, and there is no one solution that is going to find a cure for all kids. As applications and presentations come forward, you make the best decisions that you can, based on research and everything else, but always exploring to see ways to improve the lives of all these students.

MR. KIRBY: As you have said, you obviously agree that everyone deserves a second chance.

MR. JACKMAN: Sure.

MR. KIRBY: It is good to do that for this particular group of young people, but I think what really happens whether there are age restrictions when it comes to getting a seat in a program that enables one to complete their high school diploma through an alternate pathway, whether there are limitations in space, so the College of the North Atlantic or one of the private training institutions may not have space for that person for whatever reason, or there may not be space at the T.I. Murphy Centre, a lot of times they are sort of in a bit of limbo; there is no place for them to be.

So, the place they end up being, in a lot of instances, is Alberta. That is a loss to us. If they are in Saskatchewan and Alberta rather than here getting that bridge, getting that little bit of education they need to finish up their Level III and then get into a skilled trade or a technology program or university or whatever it is they are interested in doing, I think is a real human resource loss to us if we cannot provide – and I do not think we are talking about a whole lot of money. By and large, on a per student cost, it may cost more for those young people than it would for the average student, whoever that is, who is just going through and is going to be able to do the senior high school.

MR. JACKMAN: I have seen close hand, an example of a very bright student who did not finish the system, went into the workforce and worked for $22 an hour, who soon realized that if I had my ticket I would go from $22 up to $42; went back to school, finished and now is making $42.

Many of these kids are bright enough to do that and unfortunately, some of them will have to go through that bit of rough road before they get back, but they are generally bright enough that in the end they make the right decision. So, whether they make it as a Level IV or not, some of them will come back and do their upgrading and their GED. Some others, if there are additional supports that we can put in place, we are always exploring those types of options.

I will tell you too, some of the challenges some of these kids faced I am very, very familiar with. For about ten years we fostered, so I know the complications that come with more than the academics and workings for these kids through the system.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Dale.

Mr. Parsons says he has one question.

MR. A. PARSONS: I can hold off until –

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Why don't we meet on Saturday night?

Sorry, Mr. Chair, that look says it all.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Obviously, we are going to need extra time. It is now 12:01, normally we would break at 12:00 o'clock. We need to set a new date.

I was looking at the open calendar here, Minister, and I was wondering if you and your staff and my fellow colleagues – I was looking at maybe a morning, Wednesday, May 16, or we can do an evening session, either Thursday, May 3 or Monday, May 7. We cannot do Thursday because members are trying to go back to their districts, so maybe Monday, May 7?

MR. JACKMAN: Is that a morning?

CHAIR: That would be an evening, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Evening. Is there a morning open?

CHAIR: The morning of May 16.

MR. JACKMAN: The morning of May 16?

MR. A. PARSONS: That works for me, Mr. Chair.

MR. JACKMAN: All right.

CHAIR: A morning, Wednesday, May 16, at 9:00 a.m. here in the –

MR. JACKMAN: We are a long ways off yet. Now boys remember what you talked about, do not come back here asking the same questions.

CHAIR: Ladies and gentlemen, we should pick it up – as I follow along here, we are basically at 3.4.01, from 15.11 on. I think we probably even might be a little further ahead than that, but from 15.11 on, just for reference for staff.

Minister, I want to thank you and your staff this morning for taking the time. It is has been a very informative morning. I thank everybody for their participation. To my colleagues –

Mr. Parsons?

MR. A. PARSONS: (Inaudible) in regard to the undertaking, some information that was not here today, can we have that for May 16?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we will see what we can do.

MR. A. PARSONS: All right, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are welcome.

Before we adjourn, I need a motion to approve the minutes of the Department of Municipal Affairs meeting of yesterday, April 25.

Do I have a motion?

MR. CRUMMELL: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Crummell.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: A motion to adjourn?

MR. A. PARSONS: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Parsons.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: We are out of here.

On motion, Committee adjourned until May 16, 2012.