Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North, substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 8:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Good morning, everybody, and I want to say a special thank you to everybody this morning. I know everybody tried to make this happen and I thank everybody so much for accommodating the Committee members and myself.

Minister and your staff, I certainly appreciate you being here at this hour of the morning and also to all our Committee members. Thank you.

My notes, in consultation with the Clerk, tell me that we at 3.4.01, page 15.11. So we will pick it up from 3.4.01. I ask Committee members to be mindful of being to the point this morning and our answers to the point, as we all have some commitments that we would like to make in about an hour or so.

I thank you once again.

Andrew, I believe we left with you, so we will start with you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to say thank you to the department for making this happen this morning. We very, very much appreciate it.

I am just going to go back, just for a quick second, because I have some questions on 3.3.02, Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering, this year there is an extra $119,000 given to the APSEA.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What does that, I guess, account for?

MR. JACKMAN: We can speak to it specifically. There is a funding formula that exists between all Atlantic Provinces. I will get Ramona to speak to that.

MS COLE: In the past few years, we had actually built up a credit in our account with APSEA. They provide programming for us – and Janet could certainly speak to that better than I can. We had built up a credit balance, so the figure for last year and the year before at $559,000 was actually lower than our provincial share. We used up that credit now, so this year we have had to budget for the full provincial share of the formula.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

It is my understanding that the majority of services offered by APSEA are provided to students and their communities by itinerant teachers. Are they funded under this or would they be funded under the teachers' line budget under Salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The teachers at APSEA that are part of the formula and the money that is used for APSEA – but our teachers are paid from here. The services from APSEA that we avail of, their salaries would be included. Is that correct, Darrin?

MR. PIKE: The service is actually provided in Halifax. As an example, for students who are blind or have a visual impairment, they would actually fly to Halifax for short-term programming and mobility exercises, if their sight is going. It is actually a direct service that the students would go to Halifax and stay there for short-term programming – the same with any students who are deaf or hard of hearing in the services that they provide. Most of our itinerant service is provided within the Province through funding that we provide to school districts. The itinerant service would come out of salaries that would be in teaching services, not in this.

MR. JACKMAN: Regular teacher allocations.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am going to move forward now – we left off on 3.4.01, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under that section, under line 03, Transportation and Communications, there has been a decrease in what is budgeted for this year. Is there less travel or communications expected?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there is. As I have said from the beginning, a lot of the travel expenses are going to be down and this is one of the areas that we are tightening our belt upon.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under line 05, Professional Services, there is an extra $100,000 budgeted from last year. What is the additional budget covering?

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to get Ramona to explain that one because I think we (inaudible) –

MS COLE: That professional services account covers the cost of our marking boards, the teachers that come into a centre for marking. In the past couple of years, they have been outside St. John's and it is more expensive to operate them outside of St. John's because the pool is here – most of the pool is here. This year they will be held in St. John's, which results in a lower requirement for travel costs and for professional services for those.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the question may have been asked last time: Is that going to be a trend? No, it is not. We will alternate and it has been alternated between Central Newfoundland here and Corner Brook.

MR. A. PARSONS: Line 06, Purchased Services, there is an extra $100,000 budgeted there. Is that going to the same thing?

MR. JACKMAN: No, those are related to some surveys that we will be doing throughout all the schools – quality of life surveys. There are new surveys at eight different grade levels. So it is to deal with the printing, the delivery, and the analysis of those results.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are the surveys done in-house?

MR. JACKMAN: You mean developed in-house?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, they are.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Quality of life surveys to do with the school climate and to deal with bullying and all the issues in Safe and Caring Schools, those kinds of items.

MR. A. PARSONS: When are the surveys going to be performed?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The end of May and early June. The grade levels for the quality of life surveys would be Grades 2 and Grade 5, and Grade 7 through Grade 12.

MR. A. PARSONS: When would you expect the results?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Well, the results will be fairly quick over the summer, and we will have them for the beginning of the school year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am going to move to 3.4.02 Professional Development, under Grants and Subsidies there has been a decrease there. What accounts for this?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, there is curriculum implementation and – you are looking at line 10, right?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Some of the curriculum that we roll out, we do not expect it will be rolled out this year; therefore, instead of a year or two to roll out a new curriculum it may take an additional year. So we see a reduction in that.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have asked some questions in the House about the whiteboards that the government has purchased. I actually did receive some –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I do not disbelieve you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there going to be anything done to aid in this? There are some teachers saying they are not getting the PD needed to help incorporate the new technology into their curriculum.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Well, I will tell you what I would like to – just as I am being as honest with you that I believe what you are saying, I will tell you that we are getting the opposite side of it as well, that many people are finding this exceptional. If there is a particular circumstance I would like to know where it is, if you would not mind, and then – just let me investigate it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: All right, if we could take it that route.

MR. A. PARSONS: That sounds good.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, good enough.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to continue moving on here, 3.4.03 Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation. I cannot recall, I do not think we hit this heading the last time did we?

MR. JACKMAN: No, I do not think so.

CHAIR: We only got to 3.4.02.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

There is less money being spent in Salaries, or budgeted this year than the year previous. What accounts for this?

MR. JACKMAN: We had two positions there; they are training positions that have been vacant. Those will not be filled.

MR. A. PARSONS: Where would those positions be based?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Right now the two that were not filled, that will be determined, but there will be no areas not covered. We have provincial coverage for the two vacant positions that were not filled. I will be able to tell you exactly, provide you with that at the next or at a future time, but all areas of the Province will be covered by the training specialists.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is what it was, training specialists was it?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes.

MR. PIKE: Yes. There were four positions and now there will be two, and the two will have to cover off the Province that was the four. We had these vacant for most of last year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Did you notice any decrease in service with using half the complement?

MR. JACKMAN: We have not received any issues raised with this. I have been over to the centre and it has not been raised as a concern. Teachers are in place, programming is increased, so we do not see it impacting.

MR. A. PARSONS: If the two positions were filled, would it perhaps add to what was able to be done? I know firsthand CDLI is a great thing because I have a number of schools that use it. I am just wondering if the two positions had been filled, would that mean even better things.

MR. JACKMAN: Like I said, we have not received any issues of complaint with it. The gentleman who heads it up is just a couple of offices down from both of us. We are engaging with him on a regular basis and engaging with the people at – what is the name of the school it operates in?

MR. PIKE: Brother Rice.

MR. JACKMAN: Operating out of Brother Rice, so we do not see it impacting.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving to line 04 Supplies, $50,000 has been budgeted this year and last year. Last year there was an overage of $126,000. What accounted for this?

MR. JACKMAN: These are software upgrades and additional supplies and equipment. As you can appreciate, as we get more and more technological there is need for upgrades and whatnot. So, quite simply, that is what it is.

MR. A. PARSONS: You are not anticipating anything this year?

MR. JACKMAN: I think we budgeted the same. There will be requests from time to time but we have maintained what we have now and we will see where that goes, but we are not anticipating anything.

MR. A. PARSONS: Line 05, Professional Services, there has been a reduction in the budget from $93,900 to $53,900. What makes this up?

MR. JACKMAN: We are doing more in-house work.

MR. A. PARSONS: The $73,900 that you spent last year, who would this have gone to if it was gone outside?

MR. JACKMAN: Are you still under Purchased Services?

MR. A. PARSONS: Professional Services.

MR. JACKMAN: Professional Services. Can anybody speak to that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It would be for professional work for the E-Learning components. That would be what is happening there, now we are going to be doing more in-house.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Just move down to line 07. I am sure there is probably some kind of obvious answer here for the big difference in numbers, $11.6 million budgeted, this year it is $529,000. What would that be?

MR. JACKMAN: That was the one-time funding for the interactive whiteboards. They have been purchased.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: I will let you finish with that section, Andrew. I have kind of let you go through your time. Are you finished that section?

MR. A. PARSONS: I will finish this section very quickly.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Grants and Subsidies for this section, what does the Grants and Subsidies cover off? It is $3.7 million.

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at $3.7 million and then $3.8 million?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: There is an increased requirement for teaching services for Distance Education for this year. Specifically, there is a greater need for French language programming.

You are looking to specifically find out what this dollar figure would entail overall?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, under this heading, what does Grants and Subsidies cover? Are you paying for teachers?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is the account where we pay for all the CDLI teachers.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many teachers would $3.7 million cover off? Is it all teaching salary or is there something else?

MR. JACKMAN: If you want, we can we can certainly get you a breakdown on that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. PIKE: There are thirty-six teachers paid out of that. There is also the grant for the Distance Education Learning technology out of Memorial. They do the backhand service for CDLI and provide the servers and the technology connection. We have a grant to Memorial University that provides that service and there are thirty-six teacher's salaries in that budget as well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I wanted to ask, how many students on an annual basis receive services from APSEA? How many students are we talking about, a small number or a large number?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I am sure I can get that for you, but we avail of the services of APSEA, also our professional staff, for professional development and avail of that. The services that APSEA give us are both student based as well as professional services to the district staff and to us here at the department.

MR. JACKMAN: We can give you a number.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I would be interested to know how many students and if there are staff, then how many individuals are we talking about who are receiving those services every year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I just wanted to go back – in fact, I believe we talked about some CDLI issues last time.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I thought we talked a little bit about it.

MR. KIRBY: What is the total number of schools in the Province now?

MR. JACKMAN: The total number of schools entirely?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, in the Province.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Two hundred and sixty-eight.

MR. KIRBY: Two hundred and sixty-eight; of that 268, the department has a definition of – there are schools that are necessarily existent right? How many schools do we have that are necessarily existent right now?

MR. PIKE: That is an old definition that we do not use.

MR. KIRBY: You do not use it anymore?

MR. PIKE: We do not use it.

MR. JACKMAN: No, I did not think so.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

What about in rural, remote outport communities, how many schools do we have right now that do not have a broadband access? Do you know what the number is, that do not have access to broadband Internet?

MR. PIKE: It is going to be a challenging question to answer. The definition of broadband becomes – it is how you define broadband. All of our schools have connectivity.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Some of our schools have CAP sites on them; therefore, they access Internet through that. In terms of students being able to access high-speed connectivity, it is in all of our schools.

MR. KIRBY: I guess there is a difference when –

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking to ask a question in broadband in the House this evening.

MR. KIRBY: I am just thinking of the impact of when – as CDLI sort of predecessor organizations moved along, it seemed as though there was a certain impetuous in government to place in the Department of Education, to introduce broadband access to communities. Maybe it was a concerted effort across government rather than just the Department of Education, but it would seem to me that if broadband arrives in a community then their impacts for post-secondary education, for health and for business et cetera. That is why I am interested in the number of schools that do not have what we would call broadband access. Pardon my sort of ignorance on the technicalities, but I just –

MR. JACKMAN: I will repeat again, there will be no school that would not have access to –

MR. KIRBY: They would have some degree of connectivity?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and it would be high speed.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I have some other questions. You have been hearing the same things I have been hearing, perhaps. I am just wondering, with respect to the teacher allocation formula this year, does the department expect there will be a reduction in the number of teachers or an adjustment in the number of teachers?

MR. JACKMAN: We expect that there will. The finalized number we have not had yet but it is a trend that if we have a decrease in student population, well the teacher allocation method, as I have said in this House on several occasions, has changed. It has gone to a needs-based approach right now. We expect there will be some teachers lost, but it will be because of declining enrolment.

MR. KIRBY: Those declining enrolments are occurring in rural, outport regions?

MR. JACKMAN: The majority of them would be in rural. Anybody who knows the Northeast Avalon here, certainly it is not declining, but it will be across the Province.

MR. KIRBY: Do you know if those are localized in particular regions?

MR. JACKMAN: No, they are not.

MR. KIRBY: How about grade levels? Do they impact particular grade levels more than others or are they –

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is a different scenario from across the entire Province.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I want to move to 3.5.01. Provincial Information and Library Resources.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: There is a reduction of, somewhere in the ballpark of $100,000. Maybe if we could have an explanation.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. That was a one-time funding that we had provided for R & M, Repair and Maintenance. That is not there.

MR. KIRBY: These are repair and maintenance funds.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: We will not anticipate then that there will be any reduction in hours for library services?

MR. JACKMAN: No. In fact, I may stand to be corrected, but our investment has seen increased hours at forty-seven of our libraries. We have made major upgrades and repairs in, I think it is like five or six of our libraries. We have invested in our libraries.

MR. KIRBY: The CNIB has been talking about the need for more accessible library materials. I do not know if they have made representation to the department on this or not, but are you aware of this request?

MR. JACKMAN: I know the CNIB have made some comments around that, but I have not specifically seen it. I do not know if they presented –

MR. PIKE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: They have presented to the deputy, yes.

MR. KIRBY: So they have, yes? Are we going to go in that direction in providing more accessible reading materials for public libraries?

MR. PIKE: We have had a couple of meetings with them and discussions on their concept of redoing their work plan and actually reorganizing themselves. They have had discussions on their draft budget. We basically have had meetings with them to sort of firm up their numbers and their plan. We asked for additional information on what – they are trying to create a new entity, break off from the CNIB to form a brand new entity.

They have been working through what that looks like and we have just been asking to get the details on what that project plan looks like. We met with them recently, I think in the last two or three weeks, on their concept to see if they have the necessary funding partners in place. This is funded by the federal government. They are looking at private partnership, as well as provincial partnership funding. They do not have all of their details worked out yet but they are working through a perspective new way to do business.

MR. KIRBY: I have been doing a lot of research on access to and availability of, and impacts of all-day kindergarten in the education system. Has the department been doing similar research on all-day kindergarten and its impacts?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We are always doing assessments of programs and whatnot, and full-day kindergarten is no different. We will continue to explore all options.

MR. KIRBY: Has there been research done on what the cost would be to shift from the partial-day model to the full-day model?

MR. JACKMAN: We are still in the process of doing that.

MR. KIRBY: So there has been some research done on the costing of it?

MR. JACKMAN: We have done some preliminary work and we are still looking at it, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is there a figure available then about what it would cost to move to the full day?

MR. JACKMAN: No, not at this particular point. I have asked that we do the research and to gather up the information. That is still in the process of being compiled.

MR. KIRBY: Do you have any sense of when that figure might be available?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, you know I am a politician, and you are too. I am not going to give you a specific time frame but the work is continuing and then once we gather it, we will make further decisions at that particular point.

MR. KIRBY: In due course, at the end of the day, on a go-forward basis.

MR. JACKMAN: In due course, at the end of the day, on a go-forward basis. There you are. I must mark that one down.

MR. KIRBY: Another thing I am interested in is the combination of child care and early learning. My party's philosophy is that they are one and they should be co-located. I am just wondering if the department has done any research on what the internal cost to government would be to co-locate –

MR. JACKMAN: Under one –

MR. KIRBY: In one department.

MR. JACKMAN: Minister Johnson can speak to it from her end, but the Department of Education and Child, Youth and Family Services, right now, are working glove in hand together. We think that the other model that we have before us now is working well.

MR. KIRBY: Mr. Chair, do I still have time here?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: This is going to sound like an odd question but it is comes from my friend, the gasman. We were having an interesting conversation about – of course, I have been talking about busing. Just with respect to the cost of busing. I am not sure how this works, so I guess I will just ask: In terms of gassing up, when a bus driver gases up a bus, does that happen at commercial gas stations? Are there incidents where, say, the Department of Education or the school districts are paying for gasoline that is purchased at the commercial gas stations rather than –

MR. JACKMAN: We have two systems. We have the school board system and we have the private contractors. So, the private contractors would gas up –

MR. PIKE: I think some of them make arrangements with the local gas stations, where they purchase a large quantity of gasoline. I guess it is according to how big an operation they are running, but certainly some of the contracted bus companies would have arrangements. We would not know what their arrangement is, but they would have arrangements with some local service stations, wherever they purchase their gas – especially if you are a large organization, you come with that volume of purchase to a local gas station.

MR. KIRBY: What about when it comes to the district level of the busing that is provided directly by the district? Are there policies on gas purchase? I am thinking if you pull up and you avail of full service versus self-service, for example, it is going to be more expensive.

MR. PIKE: They have to follow government-purchasing requirements. So, any tendering for gas purchases, they have to follow the government rules.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

CHAIR: Dale, do you want to stop there and I will just move back to Andrew, then we will come back to you?

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Heading 3.4.04, Early Childhood Learning, would this be the section – you had a Ministerial Statement yesterday?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: This is the section that the pilot project falls under?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would that be under Professional or Purchased Services, or Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JACKMAN: That would be under both.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under both?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: How much was budgeted? I think three years is the strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we have had $4.8 million over three years. We are in year two right now, so you would see, under Grants and Subsidies, likewise, you will see an increase and that is where it is gone into.

MR. A. PARSONS: I was reading the statement yesterday and I can see what the plan is. You have the package we are putting out.

How do you assess how it works when it is all done? How do you figure out whether it was successful or not successful and should we change it?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is an important part of it. Do you want to speak to it or do you want me to –

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: (Inaudible) early learning strategy. For example, there are many different parts of the early learning strategy and one of them is the parent resource kits that you have probably heard about for two months, four months, and six months. They are being piloted in twenty sites now.

They would be evaluated at the site, with the public health nurse, as they are coming back for their next visits, as well as phone calls home. There would be other pieces that would be evaluated. There will be a promotional campaign about play that is coming very shortly and that will be evaluated. There is also the partnership we have with the libraries board. There are many different parts; all pieces will be evaluated of the early learning strategy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: The promotional campaign that Janet mentioned, we will be doing some posters. There will be some radio ads. There will be some TV ads. Because as simple as people might attribute that play is just a simple thing, there is a lot that goes on during play. It is important that people recognize what it is. You do not want to plan too much for play but, I suppose, just learn how to let them play.

MR. A. PARSONS: As the father of an eighteen-month-old, I have seen that on a daily basis.

MR. JACKMAN: There you go. That is it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the plan, if it is successful, to expand to more – right now there are twenty sites. Would it be Province-wide?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. The second part of it would be the expansion of the program up to thirty-six months.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am just going to move on. I have some general questions here if I could.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I believe I covered off the line by line. I am just looking here. You have made mention before of My Gay-Straight Alliance that has been started. Where is the cost of that listed?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The funding for that is coming from the Student Support Services. Some of the training as well was helped paid through the Women's Policy Office, for the training of that, to help the school districts and the school leaders be able to take that resource and be able to deliver it better throughout the school system.

MR. A. PARSONS: Will there be any steps taken to make it a mandatory resource?

MR. JACKMAN: I think our philosophy – to get the understanding and acceptance of it, I think it is a resource to support people in school. I have handed out a lot of these bands. This is the one from Egale Canada – the people who promote that.

The reason I wear this is for the other things around autism, epilepsy and this kind of stuff, it is more direct. This is to accept and understand. It is easy to say it, but get out and preach it. This resource is about having something in school that students can use to develop gay-straight alliances within schools. We are seeing it happen. Students are often ahead of us; therefore, this is a resource to support them. We are finding that teachers are getting in there and using it. I had been to two or three sessions where teachers have been in, they are talking about it, they are moving on it, and I have no doubt at all that it will be well used in the schools.

[Applause from gallery]

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not know if I have heard "Hear, hear!" from the peanut gallery in an Estimates Committee before.

I am just going to move on here for a second. You mentioned ninety-five pilot schools with regard to inclusive education.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Could I get a list of the schools, and a list of all of that information?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What was the number of schools?

MR. JACKMAN: It is 268.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the plan to increase that?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, inclusive education comes about on a defined need. There are school teams that get together and develop a plan. The overarching thing is that we would have inclusion for all students who require it. Every student is individual, needs a plan, work to develop that plan.

There will always be challenges, there is no doubt about it, but I think we are not as much of an education system but we are as a society now that inclusion is the model that we need to do, and not inclusion just for the sake of including someone. It has to be meaningful and purposeful.

If I have a child, I do not want them stuck in there because yes, we are going to have inclusion. It has to be meaningful. Schools are working towards that.

MR. A. PARSONS: That was one of the areas I think we covered last time, that the budget for special services has been reduced somewhat. I have been hearing from some schools that they are hearing now they might lose 0.55 of a position for special services. We are moving forward with inclusion but some of what I am hearing is that in order to obtain this we are not getting the same supports that they need.

I read the numbers on autism. It is pretty scary to see that the number is going up drastically.

MR. JACKMAN: It certainly is going up.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is something going to happen in the future to make sure the supports are there? If we are going to have inclusion, which is great, it is a great thing,, but we need to make sure the supports are there. I am just wondering what the plan is.

MR. JACKMAN: I said in the House here the other day – let's take autism and the ABA program. Up until a couple of years ago that was not even offered to school grade children. It was implemented in Grade 1, Grade 2, and this coming September it will be implemented in Grade 3. As with any program, there will always be needs. There will always be never-ending demands.

Our class size in a regular classroom is, as I have said in this House, the best in all of the provinces in Canada. There will always be people who will say we need more, we need more. What we do is look for money. We do the best we can with our money. We truly, and I truly believe that we are providing a quality service in this Province.

Will we always be looking to offer more? Certainly, we will. Then what dollars we can put towards it, we will.

MR. A. PARSONS: My colleague brought up the school bus issue. Is that an issue for the department or the school boards themselves when you contract with private contractors to provide the service?

MR. JACKMAN: The money is there. School boards are the ones that work to develop contracts with –

MR. A. PARSONS: The last section I am going to cover off here, you mentioned the fact you have so much money, you have to spread it around. I was looking at the AG's report that came out. There is some concerning stuff in there. Especially, I was just looking at the Western School District and a lot of money wasted or misused.

Have there been any steps internally to address this? I am looking at overpayments, cellphone use and liquor being bought. I am just wondering, have there been steps taken to –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We have been in contact with the school board. We have indicated to them that there are guidelines that you have to operate within. I think Dr. Elliott has been in the media on several occasions to address some of the particular issues. We have offered our supports to the Western School District to look further into the issues.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, because it is the same issues being brought up in two straight reports. I am just hoping when the next one comes out that –

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: When you are talking about personal cellphone costs being paid for employees, purchases for gift certificates, furniture and equipment being lost in times like this where we have to squeeze every dollar. This is one area I am hoping, like I say, has been addressed.

Those are all of my questions. I thank you very much for the opportunity.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: I just have a small number of additional questions.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you.

MR. KIRBY: I was at a school council meeting at Beach Cove Elementary a couple of evenings ago.

MR. JACKMAN: I heard.

MR. KIRBY: Representatives of the, I guess, staff of the Eastern School District were there and they noted that $6.9 million was allocated for land acquisition and planning in this budget as part of the new school construction.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I do not recall, and I am imperfect. I am just wondering, did we talk about that figure under 3.1.07? Did you folks actually say that part of that was $6.9 million for land acquisition and planning?

MR. JACKMAN: It is page 15.8, 3.1.07.

MR. KIRBY: Does it come under 06 Purchased Services, or is that Professional Services, or is it spread over both?

MR. PIKE: It is over both.

MR. KIRBY: So it is not broken out then. You have another –

MR. JACKMAN: I can tell you, the case you are looking at specifically there is $1.5 million to do that first step in planning for that school.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, because that number sort of surprised me. It is just that I had not really heard it before.

Now, the other thing that has been in the news is the Charlottetown school. There are no funds in here for that. That was not something that was –

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is one of the priorities that the Western School Board had identified. I believe it was number six on their list. We have these projects that come up from time to time. I can tell you that in my own district they went back in school in September, found mould, had to relocate them, but there is no choice. We have to come up with the money somewhere to do it.

MR. KIRBY: So we need a whole new school there?

MR. JACKMAN: In Charlottetown?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: No, we are not saying that. The report is back. The Western School District is doing some planning around that now. Again, I cannot give you a specific time frame but we cannot be too much longer until we inform these parents. We have kids who are going to be soon out of the school and have to be back into something in September. We have to arrive at a decision on that rather quickly.

MR. KIRBY: When you were just speaking, you were talking about the ABA program and it was going to be extended to Grade 3. You are talking about Applied Behaviour Analysis, right?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: How is that delivered? I have been trying to get some clarity from the Eastern School District on how ABA is provided in schools and I have not really been able to get the answer that is suitable to me. If a child with autism requires –

MR. JACKMAN: Maybe Janet will speak to that.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The majority of that is outside through Health Services, the ABA, but also our teaching staff in the schools. Many teachers are trained in ABA so that they can incorporate that in their work as well, but the one-on-one service is through Health.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you looking to a particular case or something?

MR. KIRBY: Well, it just seems to me – because ABA and IBI are so intensive and it requires such person-to-person contact, it seems to me unless a teacher is dealing with a really small number of students it would be difficult to successfully deliver the therapy because it does require that level of repetition.

MR. PIKE: As Janet mentioned, the ABA therapy that you are talking about that was expanded is through health services. That is one-on-one services outside of the regular school day.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: The ABA – and Janet referred to it. What our teachers do is imbed in within their normal – it could be done one on one, but it is tried to be an integrated model into your regular teaching practices. It is not done as a separate piece. Although, some students, according to their need, could receive direct ABA therapy within the school setting, but the program that we are referring to, we are talking about, is the expansion of the health services program. They would get pre-kindergarten, then kindergarten and move on to Grade 1, Grade 2, and then Grade 3.

MR. KIRBY: Other problems I am encountering is that folks have ABA services that are provided outside of school hours, but they cannot access it during or they do not feel like it is the same level, and it probably is not the same level of service in terms of the intensiveness of it. They would prefer to have more, and I think Ontario has moved in that direction as well in the last ten years.

In any case, just a couple of more – actually, I really only have one more question. We are talking about the Gay-Straight Alliance business. I mean, in a post-denominational educational system, of course the vestiges of faith are everywhere to be seen and written on the sides of our schools. As a Unitarian, it does not affect my faith at all, but I am curious about the level of resistance that the department has encountered in its efforts to encourage schools throughout the Province – I am just wondering about how successful it has been and how widely spread the efforts have been.

MR. JACKMAN: We have had some e-mails opposing the move, but they have not been overwhelming. I am sure there are people out there who still have some problem with it, but I tell you one thing, religion or no religion, I take my stand on it at any point. I want no child to suffer, to feel humiliated or to feel alienated because of their sexual orientation in the schools. We know it is there. It has always been there, and the simple fact of it, let us deal with it. It is as simple as that.

I was down to Bishops College, and the Member for St. John's Centre was down there with me. This was a presentation on inclusion and the kids from My Gay-Straight Alliance in that school were there; they took part in the ceremony. There was no alienation or anything. I thought that these kids are way ahead of us. I am certain that fifteen years ago if these kids had gotten up, there would be eyebrows down, snickers and everything else. That is not there now. So, I think the kids are in a much more understanding society. I would say it at any point in the media that I respect people's right to religion, but first and foremost there has to be respect for individuals. It is as simple as that.

MR. KIRBY: I ask because there is a fairly intense debate going on in Ontario right now over Bill 13 and Bill 14 about legislating anti-bullying. I guess your department is aware of that.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, yes.

MR. KIRBY: I cannot imagine that Newfoundland and Labrador society is so significantly different in our –

MR. JACKMAN: I hope that we are more understanding than the folks in Ontario, and I think we are. I really think we are.

MR. KIRBY: That is the end of my questioning, Mr. Chair.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have one quick question that I forgot.

One last question: We know that Mr. Rice has recently indicated he is leaving. In the new process to find a new CEO, will the department be actively involved or have a say in it?

MR. JACKMAN: We have elected school boards and whatnot, so I really have not given it much thought because he has only recently tendered his resignation. Yes, we have elected school boards that will carry those things out.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale, are you done?

MR. KIRBY: I am done.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister –

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you.

CHAIR: – and thank you to all of your staff.

I just have a couple of housekeeping items and we will let you get out of here.

MR. KIRBY: Do all of the lines have to be passed?

CHAIR: Yes. We are going to do that right now, Dale.

First off, we need to approve the minutes of the Social Services Committee for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation on May 9, 2012.

Can I have a mover for the approval of the minutes of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation?

MR. LITTLE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Little.

Do I have a seconder?

MR. CRUMMELL: Seconded.

CHAIR: Mr. Crummell, thank you.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Clerk, can we call the subheads, please, inclusive?

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to 3.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: We will call 1.1.01 through 3.5.01 inclusive.

Moved by Mr. Crummell; seconded by Mr. Parsons.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 3.5.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Motion to adjourn?

MR. A. PARSONS: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Parsons.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.