Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North, substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre, for a portion of the meeting.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning, Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Good morning.

CHAIR: Pinch-hitting for the pinch-hitter, I think.

MS SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I would like to welcome everybody from Child, Youth and Family Services and Women's Policy. Good morning to all our Committee members and staffers.

Welcome to the last session after seven sessions of the Social Services Committee, I hope. It has been a trying two weeks trying to get it all in, but we have succeeded and we are here.

I want to thank you, Minister Sullivan, for being here this morning, in particular, as I said, pinch-hitting for the pinch-hitter. I am sure you are more than capable of it.

As we do in all situations, Minister, I am going to ask you and your staff to introduce yourselves, just so we get it for Hansard. I remind everybody that prior to speaking, wait for your red light to come on and please state your name. That will help immensely.

With the Committee's indulgence, we will start with Women's Policy this morning, 2.1.01. We will do Women's Policy first and then we will move into Child, Youth and Family Services. Without any further ado, Minister, if you want to lead off and we will go from there.

MS SULLIVAN: Good morning. I am Susan Sullivan, minister of something.

MS TRICKETT: Wanda Trickett, Departmental Controller for Executive Council.

MS COCHRANE: I am Rachelle Cochrane. I am DM for Women's Policy Office.

MS GULLAGE: Cheryl Gullage, Program, Policy, and Communications Analyst with WPO.

MS HUNT: Michelle Hunt, Director of Communications, CYFS and WPO.

MS O'BRIEN: Donna O'Brien, ADM for Programs and Policy, CYFS.

MS CULL: Barbara Cull, ADM, Service Operations with Child, Youth and Family Services.

MR. MOORES: Wayne Moores, Manager of Budgeting for CYFS.

MS MAIDMENT: Donna Maidment, Executive Assistant, CYFS.

MR. GRANDY: Paul Grandy, Departmental Controller, Department of Child, Youth and Family Services.

MS COMPANION: Lori Anne Companion, Child, Youth and Family Services, Deputy Minister.

MS MOORE: Julie Moore, ADM, Corporate Services, Child, Youth and Family Services.

CHAIR: I am Glenn Littlejohn, MHA for Port de Grave, and the Chair of the Social Services Committee.

MR. A. PARSONS: Andrew Parsons, MHA, Burgeo – La Poile.

MS BUCKLE: Joy Buckle, Researcher.

MS ROGERS: Gerry Rogers, MHA, St. John's Centre.

MS WILLIAMS: Susan Williams, Researcher.

MR. CORNECT: Good morning, Minister, and staff. Welcome to Social Services Committee Estimates meeting this morning. Tony Cornect, MHA for the great and cultural District of Port au Port.

MR. CRUMMELL: Dan Crummell, MHA, St. John's West.

MR. LITTLE: Good morning. I am Glen Little, MHA for the beautiful District of Bonavista South.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, MHA, Baie Verte – Springdale.

CHAIR: With that, Minister, you have fifteen minutes for opening remarks if you so choose.

CLERK (Ms Hammond): (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Oh, I have to call the subhead first. Thank you, Kimberley.

We will call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 2.7.01.

Minister, if you please.

MS SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am certainly happy to be here this morning to discuss the Budget proposals for Women's Policy and, of course, the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women. It is some work I was involved with a long time ago, actually. Well, it seems like a long time ago; a few years back, anyways. It was very exciting work then and, according to the briefings we did last night, it continues to be very exciting work that is happening in Women's Policy.

I am particularly happy that some of what we will be looking at this morning has to do with the eight women's centres that are located across the Province as well and some of the fabulous work that I know on the front lines. From the work I do with my own women's centre at home, we are still seeing some very exciting work that is happening there.

We know this government has certainly committed to social and economic enhancement and advancement of all women, and of course other vulnerable populations as well. I believe we have remained steadfast in our view that participation by women in all occupations is critical to the future of the workforce of this Province. We will see some of that evidenced by some of what is found here in the Estimates this morning.

I want to move through some of the different headings but I think before we do that, I think it is incumbent upon us, as well, to point out that in Budget 2013 women continue to have access to services and programs related to their social and economic well-being through commitment and support to a number of women's organizations. I refer particularly to the Multicultural Women's Organization of Newfoundland and Labrador, to the ten violence prevention regional co-ordinating committees against violence. I have seen some phenomenal work that has resulted from some of those particular committees.

NAWN, we refer to it as, the Newfoundland Aboriginal Women's Network, Transition House Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Sexual Crisis and Prevention Centre. Again, we are going to see, through these Estimates, some of the allocations that are made to those groups.

I can tell you that since 2004 we have more than doubled the funding for the Status of Women Councils in Newfoundland and Labrador. This year we are happy to report that the funding for the eight women's centres has been maintained. They will continue to receive that $127,625 annually, which is up from $55,000 when we first looked at this in 2004.

So without going into too many of the other sort of generic details, what I will do is simply turn it over. We will have opportunity to talk about the VPI II, the next six-year initiative, and things that are there as we move through the different headings.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister.

I picked up this, I guess we will say department, upon the resignation of the former Member for Cartwright – L'Anse au Clair. I am very happy to be here and very happy that we have good researchers and staff to guide me.

I am going to start off just going through the lines here. Line 01, Salaries, it is down to $741,200 for Estimates. How many positions was this?

MS SULLIVAN: It reflects a savings of $162,600. In terms of exactly how that works itself through, we are looking at about $51,000, $52,000 permanent savings related to the removal of a vacant position. It was a vacant permanent Administrative Officer position there, and that was through attrition. There is a savings of $54,500 which is a temporary savings related to the six months delayed recruitment of two positions; one was a Policy Analyst, and the second was a Training Officer. Both have now been hired and, in fact, they are here with us. There is a $65,000 permanent savings related to the decision to not hire a vacant temporary Social Marketing Specialist.

MR. A. PARSONS: The vacant permanent administrative position that was cut, where was that located?

MS SULLIVAN: You have to wait for your light.

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: I am sorry. It was in the St. John's office.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, thank you.

Under Grants and Subsidies, line 10, can you just give me a background or explanation on how this money is distributed?

MS SULLIVAN: The funding is provided here for the ten regional anti-violence groups, for the eight women's centres, the Transition House Association, the Sexual Assault Crisis and Prevention Centre, the violence prevention for Aboriginal women, supporting social infrastructure for Aboriginal women in Central and Western Newfoundland, Multicultural Women's Organization of Newfoundland and Labrador. That was through the Immigration Strategy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would it be possible for us to get a list of all the groups that received money and how much money?

MS SULLIVAN: Sure.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know this is a small amount but I am just curious, under Revenue – Provincial last year it was $9,700. Where did the revenue come from?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: I am going to have to turn this over to Wanda. If you could, Wanda?

CHAIR: Wanda.

MS TRICKETT: This revenue is in relation to a recovery from the Newfoundland Aboriginal Women's Network for unexpected grant funds that was advanced in 2011-2012 for the Aboriginal Women and Men; Building a Bridge to Wellness project.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just moving on to some more general questions, the Violence Prevention Initiative's action plan for 2006-2012 was just completed. Is this report being published?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: We have just concluded the evaluation of the VPI Phase I and we are in the process of preparing a submission to Cabinet. Once we get the submission through our organization, then we will make a decision on release of the document.

MR. A. PARSONS: What kind of timeline is on that?

MS COCHRANE: We are anticipating having this done within the next several months, so certainly within 2013.

MR. A. PARSONS: Whether this gets released or not is still subject to a Cabinet decision?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, certainly it is a decision of Cabinet. We have met with the ministers several times to do the debriefing; it is a process that we have to go through. We will be will through that process very shortly.

MR. A. PARSONS: While we are on that, were there measures in this evaluation to determine whether the Violence Prevention Initiative is actually reducing the incidents of violence?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: With any of our initiatives there is always an evaluation that is part of the framework that we put in place in the first place, so there has been ongoing evaluation.

MR. A. PARSONS: Regional Co-ordinating Committees, RCCs: How many of these are there?

MS SULLIVAN: Ten.

MR. A. PARSONS: Ten.

How much do they receive?

MS SULLIVAN: They receive $80,000 each.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Where are they located? What are the regions?

MS SULLIVAN: We have the Burin Peninsula; the Central West Committee Against Violence, which is Avalon East; Communities Against Violence, Eastern Region; Northern Committee Against Violence; the Roads to End Violence, which I believe is on the Avalon; Southwestern Coalition to End Violence, which is the Southwestern portion of the Island; Violence Prevention Labrador; and then the Western Regional Coalition to End Violence. I am not sure exactly where that is located.

OFFICIAL: Lab City, I think

MS SULLIVAN: Lab City, we think.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Are these being looked at for reorganization following this evaluation?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: These groups were consulted as part of the evaluation. Round tables were held with these ten groups, as well as five other organizations throughout the Province and the advice that those committees have given us will be brought forward to Cabinet when the minister's submission is concluded.

MR. A. PARSONS: Transition houses: How much are they receiving this year?

MS SULLIVAN: That one is $105,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: The Status of Women Councils, they fall under 2.7.01?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes, and now I have the $127,625 allocations.

MR. A. PARSONS: Did you say there were eight?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I guess going back for a second, under Professional Services, what is covered under Professional Services?

CHAIR: Is that 2.7.01.05, Andrew, just for clarification?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

CHAIR: It is 2.7.01.05, Professional Services.

MS SULLIVAN: Are you looking at the Estimates portion of that, or do you just want to know generically what is covered under Professional Services? We are talking about the hiring of consultants to complete research projects involving the evaluation in the surveys as well as policy, programs, and training development.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering now, and this is a general question, you mentioned in your preamble, Minister, one of the big goals of the Women's Policy Office comes to the labour market as well. I hear a lot about the non-traditional sectors and money going to the women's councils. Was there any consultation? The Gateway Status of Women out in Port aux Basques actually lost their person who was tasked with Employment Assistance Services. That was cut from them. I am wondering if there was any consultation done because that seems to be completely against what the intention of the government is.

MS SULLIVAN: Again, I do not want to get very far into policy because, as you know, this is not my area; this is not my department. What I can tell you about what you are asking is that appears to be more of an AES department. That is more involved with Advanced Education and Skills.

MR. A. PARSONS: I just put it out because I liked your preamble and you talked about what Women's Policy is trying to do. That would seem to have a link to what the Status of Women Council are doing, who are taking great advantage of EAS. I did not know if there was a consultative process put in place. One of the goals I putting women in jobs, especially in the non-traditional sector, and then we cut this person out. It seemed to be counterproductive.

MS SULLIVAN: Again, you are asking me to go and take a look at another department, which I really have not had a briefing on. What I can tell you about the Gateway Status of Women Council is that we have not cut their funding whatsoever. They are still receiving the $127,625.

MR. A. PARSONS: Those are my questions for right now. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS: Thank you very much.

I want to say thank you very much for all the work you do, CYFS. I know you are dealing with some of the most difficult and complex situations that we need to deal with as a public service. I want to thank you for your dedication and your commitment, your innovation and creativity. I know it can be very, very tough. I know it also can be very rewarding, but it is very complex. For Women's Policy as well, thank you so much for your dedication to this area. Welcome aboard, for those of you who are new.

I am not the critic for Child, Youth and Family Services, so I am only here for Women's Policy. Then my colleague Dale Kirby will be replacing me after we are finished with Women's Policy. Thank you for your time this morning as well.

I just have a few line items I would like to get to before I have some questions. If we could go back to 01, Salaries, the removal of the vacant administrative position, I think, Minister, you said that there was a $52,000 reduction there for the removal of a vacant position for the administration position. How long was that vacant?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: It has been vacant for a while now. The duties assigned to that position are being picked up by other staff within the office. We have other admin positions; we are not short on our staffing model. I have myself a permanent admin assistant. We have a lady on the front desk who is also available and helps us with our admin duties. We also have a full-time, permanent Admin Officer who is responsible for all our contracts.

MS ROGERS: Okay, thank you very much.

There was a delay in filling a training and communications position, was there? There was a $54,000 shortfall?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: Yes, there was a six-month delay in filling two positions. We, like most departments these days, struggled with recruitment and the number of applications we had. Those positions are now filled. We were six months getting the positions filled and now we are fully staffed.

MS ROGERS: There were two separate positions, was it? One for training –

MS COCHRANE: Yes.

MS ROGERS: What was that position, training?

MS COCHRANE: We have a lady with us now; she is a GS-40. She is a Training Officer who does our violence prevention training.

MS ROGERS: Who does she train? That is what I am wondering.

MS COCHRANE: Oh, she is out into the communities.

MS ROGERS: Okay.

MS COCHRANE: She also helps provide some training to the education system. We do one-day and two-day sessions out into the community throughout the Province in our schools, and also for our NGOs.

MS ROGERS: Okay, great. Thank you very much.

Both of those positions now are filled?

MS COCHRANE: Yes.

MS ROGERS: Great. The marketing position that you are not filling; what was the role of that position?

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: As you know in our office we have quite a number of publications, fact sheets, information circulars we send out to again NGOs and schools right throughout the Province. That position was going to be a dedicated resource to help us with the design of that.

With technology as we have now on some of the software we are using and also the support from other departments, we have not identified the need for that position any longer. We still have been able to do our publications without the need for this Social Marketing Specialist.

MS ROGERS: Have there been as many publications and has the reach been as far?

MS SULLIVAN: It is farther.

MS COCHRANE: Farther, absolutely.

Technology has helped us quite a bit. Actually, this coming year – when I was briefing the minister last night – we are also looking at other ways. Some of our computers now, we are able to link so much faster and get information out so much quicker than we were ten years ago. We do not use the mail any more, so the actual hands-on, physical volume of work can be actually increased through the use of technology. We are taking advantage of that. We are going to try that again in the new year to try to get more face-to-face contact using our computers and things like that.

MS ROGERS: Was that position also tasked with writing materials, creating materials?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, that position would have done some of those resources, but we also now have a Manager for Social and Economic Policy, two positions, two new permanent positions, and those positions help with that as well.

Collectively, we use the communications branch, we use existing staff who have expertise in the individual areas that we are focusing on and they bring that expertise, with our communications folks, and we are able to produce materials without this dedicated resource.

MS ROGERS: Those two positions that you said are new, the permanent positions, are they new positions or just newly filled?

MS COCHRANE: No, they were created about two years ago as new permanent positions, and as we have matured with those positions they are able to provide their professional expertise in helping us with our marketing materials.

MS ROGERS: Thank you very much.

We see in 2.7.01.03, Transportation and Communications, that we have a reduction. First of all, $170,000 was not spent last year. Can you tell me about that?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: That had to do with the VPIs stakeholders' provincial professional development conference and also the Provincial Aboriginal Women's conferences. For the Violence Prevention Initiative conference, the decision was made to essentially try a different means of reaching out as opposed to just the traditional let's have a conference, let's get together.

So rather than hold the conference, instead stakeholder groups and individuals who normally attend the conference were consulted directly, in a myriad of ways really, to obtain some critical information. So instead of a conference, there were fifteen round-table consolations that were held, all ten of the Regional Co-ordinating Committees Against Violence were involved, for example. There was a round-table consultation with shelters. There was a round-table consultation with women's centres, one with Aboriginal partners, and community organizations.

There was another round table with partner organizations of the VPI, and that would include groups like the Transition House Association, the Newfoundland and Labrador Sexual Assault Crisis and Prevention Centre, Citizens' Crime Prevention Association, Seniors' Resource Centre, and the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women. As well, there was some online discussion that was generated.

It was a look at, is there another way to do things? Can we find a better way to reach into community and have more meaningful discussion? By doing this particular initiative as opposed to the one conference, there was a significant savings. Similarly, with the provincial Aboriginal Women's Conference, there was a conflict in terms of trying to get that particular conference organized as there was another conference in Labrador as well. The reach out and the consultation process still happened.

MS ROGERS: So the round tables then would consist of just organizations within a particular region, would they?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes.

MS ROGERS: So we did not have a coming together of different women's groups from across the Province, together in one place?

MS SULLIVAN: There are often times during the year when these groups do meet and do consult. It is my understanding from the time I worked there, in fact, that there are often daily conversations among these groups in any case. That continues to happen. In this case, these were focused round-table discussions.

MS ROGERS: Thank you.

We see a reduction of $84,000 in this coming year.

MS SULLIVAN: In the Estimates this year, close to $54,000 is the reversal of a one-time savings initiative. That is offset then by a $96,000 reduction to the VPI stakeholders' provincial development conference that we just talked about, and then $40,000 for the Aboriginal Women's Conference; $1,600 reduction to the minister's travel budget; and then there was another smaller savings related to the core mandate proposal of about $500.

MS ROGERS: Could we have that, maybe if we could just have someone jot a note and give us that? It was just way too fast for us to write down and it will be a while before we get our Hansard.

MS SULLIVAN: It will be in Hansard, but that is fine, yes.

MS ROGERS: Yes, it will be a while for that. Thank you very much.

I would assume that any list or written information I ask for or that Andrew asks for, that we would both like. Thank you very much.

In Professional Services, we see a drop in what was spent, the revised in 2012-2013 in 05. Can you tell me a bit about that? I know that you had mentioned it.

MS SULLIVAN: The revised reflects savings of $191,500 due to the deferral of services required for the provincial violence prevention conference and the Aboriginal Women's Conference as well. Those are the two sums that we just explained; and the delay in program delivery under the Inuit Women Capacity Building Program for this year of about $20,000; and, the deferral and design requirements for the VPI campaign of about $101,000.

MS ROGERS: What campaign was deferred?

MS SULLIVAN: That was the VPI campaign, the Violence Prevention Initiative.

MS ROGERS: Yes, but was it a specific campaign within the Violence Prevention Initiative?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, it was. It is going to be captured in our VPI II. It is part of our Cabinet discussion on it as we go forward in the new fiscal.

MS ROGERS: What is that?

MS COCHRANE: That will be unveiled as we move forward. There is a suite of programs that are being proposed for VPI II. This will come out as we move forward in the new fiscal.

MS ROGERS: If we see that money was not spent last year, and then we see a decrease in this year, that is a significant chunk that has not been allocated for the Violence Prevention Initiative.

MS COCHRANE: If I could provide some clarity. The minister indicated that we held these round table discussions with our VPI stakeholders. During those discussions, prior to getting into the design of a new campaign, we thought it was prudent to seek input and make sure that our resources are being spent where the experts in the area think we are best to get a return on that.

Rather than start a design of a program in the last fiscal year, we are holding that. We are using the input we got from our stakeholder consultations to inform and better ensure that our campaign reaches the target audience who are most in need of this campaign.

CHAIR: Okay, Gerry, I am going to hold you on that one.

MS ROGERS: Okay.

CHAIR: Do you have one follow-up question?

MS ROGERS: Yes, I do. I have a follow-up question on this.

Thank you very much for that. You are saying we did not spend $100,000 last year, yet we also see a reduction by $189,000 this year. You are saying that you are holding the $100,000 for this coming year? It still seems like quite a reduction to me.

MS COCHRANE: Understood. Certainly, the perception is perhaps there. However, in the new VPI II there will be some design and delivery of a campaign focused on where our stakeholders have indicated that is necessary. Once we unveil that, you will see the importance of our campaigns.

CHAIR: Okay. I am going to hold you there, Gerry, and I am going to go back to Andrew.

Are you done Andrew?

MR. A. PARSONS: I am done on Women's Policy, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are done on Women's Policy.

Gerry.

MS ROGERS: Okay. Thank you very much.

Again, the $100,000 was not spent and we see a reduction of $189,000 in 2013-2014. What is that reduction? What will we not be able to do in this year?

MS SULLIVAN: Twelve thousand dollars of that is savings related to the core mandate proposal; $20,000 is the reduction to the administration budget cost overall; $60,000 is a reduction related to the Aboriginal conference facilitator per cost savings initiative. I have a note here with regard to Rural Secretariat, around that. Do I have the note in the right place here or not?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS SULLIVAN: I think we decided we would use the Rural Secretariat to help us do that work as opposed to having to outsource that to a facilitator.

MS ROGERS: They do such a great job. They do a fabulous job.

MS SULLIVAN: They have done fabulous work on a number of different initiatives. So there is a $60,000 savings there that we can put to better use, we think. Then there is a $128,000 reduction to the VPI conference co-ordinator and facilitator. Again, we believe we can use the Rural Secretariat more effectively here.

MS ROGERS: Okay.

In effect, last year then we did not have the new campaign for the Violence Prevention Initiative as had originally been planned. I do not understand why that is. I know that consultation had to be done but it was part of the plan of the Violence Prevention Initiative.

MS SULLIVAN: I think there were simply delays in design of the program itself.

MS ROGERS: In design of materials or design in the program? Because it was all part of a six-year initiative, or a five year –

CHAIR: Rachelle.

MS COCHRANE: We still have four campaigns that are in operation today. It is the Respect Women Campaign, the OutrageNL campaign, prevention of violence against older persons, and the duty to report child abuse. Those campaigns are still out there.

I should not pre-empt the discussions, Minister, but we had asked for money last year to be prepared to do something in addition to those four campaigns. In times of fiscal restraint, we wanted to design a program that is most appropriate to the needs of our stakeholders; hence, why we want to defer the design of that now, pending the outcome of our stakeholder consultations. That will occur, it is just we will get the work done now with the advice of our stakeholders.

MS ROGERS: I guess it seems we have lost that money and it is reduced again this year.

MS COCHRANE: Right, but as –

MS ROGERS: For a topic that is so very important.

MS COCHRANE: Understood, but I think – not to take away from the work that is currently out there, we do have four campaigns that are very active. You alluded to that at the beginning of our session.

We are getting the message. Our stakeholders are getting the message about violence prevention. In our survey work that we did on these campaigns, we have had some pre and post survey work. The data indicates that we are actually changing attitudes.

When we release VPI II, the data will be very supportive of the work that we have done. We want to make sure that when we design a program, we hit the right target audience.

MS ROGERS: Thank you very much for that.

Grants and Subsidies, we have looked at that. Purchased Services has a reduction of $30,000 for 2013-2014. Where might we feel that reduction?

CHAIR: Are you referring, Gerry, to 2.7.01.06?

MS ROGERS: I am. Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, just for clarification.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay. The revised reflects an – did you ask about the revised or the Estimates? I am sorry.

MS ROGERS: Let's do both.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay. The revised reflects an overrun of $34,000 due to printing costs and social marketing ads on TV, social media costs for various programs such as the anti-violence program, behavioural supports program, the Inuit Women's Capacity Building Programs, security and monitoring system, and other miscellaneous costs. There was overrun on all of that.

In the Estimates, that reflects a reduction of $29,000; $27,000 would be in cost-saving initiatives, $300 would be savings related to the core mandate proposal, and $1,900 is our proportionate share of the spend analysis.

MS ROGERS: Thank you very much.

If we could move on to the line item there on the Provincial Advisory Council, we see a reduction of $28,000.

CLERK: In 2.7.02.10 Grants and Subsidies?

MS ROGERS: That is right. Thank you.

MS SULLIVAN: Under Grants and Subsidies, 10, okay. It is the next page, isn't it? It is not this page at all. There, now I have it, sorry.

It is the Provincial Advisory Council, which is mandated to advise the minister. There is a $30,000 reduction there and they feel very strongly they can easily accommodate that reduction in conversations that were had with them, particularly around the use of more technology and teleconferencing for meetings. There have been a number of face-to-face meetings that were held throughout the year that the council feels strongly they can now accommodate through teleconferencing, video conferencing, and things of that nature.

MS ROGERS: Thank you very much.

MS SULLIVAN: You are welcome.

MS ROGERS: I just have a few general questions.

MS SULLIVAN: I will do my best, but really it is not my area.

MS ROGERS: Let us see what we can do here. The Violence Prevention Initiative evaluation has been done, so we can expect that in several months. Has there been much gender-based analysis and research done? Was there any gender analysis done on Budget decisions in this Budget? I do not mean just for the budget here, but for the overall Budget.

MS SULLIVAN: Again, you are asking very generic questions, and that is a question that was asked in the House of Assembly as well that the Premier more than adequately answered. I can tell you only from my department that yes, there was.

MS ROGERS: Are there reports, then, of the gender-based analysis done in the different departments?

MS SULLIVAN: Not that I am aware of. There would not have been reports. As we sat around to make these decisions, when it comes time to do cost cutting within government, it is pretty tedious. It is pretty difficult work to be doing at the best of times; however, whenever we sat around my tables, I can tell you those questions were asked and discussed.

MS ROGERS: Doing a gender-based analysis is a very specific approach to decision making that requires certain steps and an analysis. I would think in order to be able to do a gender-based analysis, it would be to apply that whole procedure to a decision-making process, which would then identify potential outcomes and also then monitor the outcomes as stated in the evaluation and the analysis. Has that been done?

MS SULLIVAN: This has absolutely nothing to do with these Estimates. This is a very generic question, Mr. Chair. It was asked in the House of Assembly; it was answered by the Premier in the House of Assembly.

I do not think anybody can question this Premier's commitment to women's issues, Women's Policy, gender issues, or anything of that nature. We have more senior positions, particularly in terms of ADMs and DMs, appointed in the last eighteen months that would have seen women nominated and appointed to these positions than ever before.

CHAIR: In fairness to the minister, Gerry, I have to say we need to stick to the Estimates. For general questions today the minister is pinch-hitting, if I can use that, for a lack of a better word.

MS ROGERS: Yes.

CHAIR: Some of these questions, I do not think she is in the position to answer because she is not in that department.

MS ROGERS: Okay, so perhaps what I could do is I could rephrase that again. I think that the gender-based analysis is one of the very specific roles and mandates of the Women's Policy Office. Government has made a commitment as well to look at gender-based analysis in decision making within the government.

I, as a matter of fact, stood up and asked the question about gender-based analysis, but I asked it specifically about the closure of the Family Violence Intervention Court. I did not, in fact, get an answer about whether or not this specific and very concrete gender-based analysis model was applied to any of the decision making. It affects the Budget; it affects other budgetary items both within – well right across the board in government.

I guess what I would like to know then – I understand that the minister is not intimately involved in the workings of the Women's Policy Office. Perhaps this question then can be brought forward to the Minister Responsible for the Women's Policy Office, and if I could get a written response to that question.

CHAIR: We will leave it in Hansard and the minister will get back to you.

MS ROGERS: Okay.

There has been a commitment that the women's centres would be getting a 5 per cent increase, which helps them attempt to give increases to their staff. There is a real attempt to try to professionalize the salaries of the staff in the women's centres that are doing such vital and important work. We all know that, and I know that the Women's Policy Office and the minister is very aware of that and supports that work.

There has not been an increase in that. Is there going to be the follow-through on the commitment of that? Traditionally they have been receiving that.

CHAIR: Can you just repeat the question again?

MS SULLIVAN: No, that is fine.

CHAIR: Okay, Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: In every other area you would have seen cuts. For our women's centres there were no cuts whatsoever. For all of our women's centres there were no cuts. We have maintained their funding.

MS ROGERS: Okay.

What kinds of assessments or recommendations were made from the Women's Policy Office for government in the past year? Anything in particular –

MS SULLIVAN: Again, Mr. Chair, I do not know what this has to do with the Estimates. If you can tell me what line we are on, I can go back and look at the Estimates for you, but really and truly, that is all I can do for this morning.

CHAIR: Gerry, I have to be fair. That is just outside the scope of what can be answered here this morning.

MS ROGERS: Okay. Thank you.

Just give me a minute here. I just have a few more questions.

There was a commitment of $125,000 per year for two years for the Inuit capacity building initiative. Are we seeing that in this Budget?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes, we are.

MS ROGERS: Okay. Thank you.

Was there any kind of gender-based analysis done on the effects on women of the $10 million cut to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation?

CHAIR: Again, Gerry, that is a Newfoundland and Labrador Housing question.

MS ROGERS: Okay. The closure of the Family Violence Intervention Court –

MS SULLIVAN: That would be a Justice question. I am really sorry.

MS ROGERS: – has meant there is a $10,000 loss of money to Marguerite's Place and to Kirby House because they receive $10,000 to do empowerment groups for women. This is a cut directly to programming within these two organizations. Has the Women's Policy Office made any statement on that?

MS SULLIVAN: Mr. Chair, I did not have a briefing from Justice. I have no capacity to be able to answer questions that are questions that ought to be directed to the Department of Justice.

MS ROGERS: I will raise the question again in terms of the role of the Women's Policy Office in being an expert resource for government in gender-based analysis. When we look at the situation of the cuts to EAS, was there any gender-based analysis done to that in how it was affecting women's centres and women's programs across the Province?

CHAIR: Again, that is a question that could be –

MS SULLIVAN: I would like to have a second just to respond to that. Any paper that comes to Cabinet comes with a gender-based analysis attached to it.

MS ROGERS: There was a gender-based analysis on the cuts or the Budget decisions?

MS SULLIVAN: I am talking about papers that go to Cabinet; they all have a gender-based analysis attached.

MS ROGERS: Could we have a copy of those gender-based analyses?

MS SULLIVAN: No, those are Cabinet papers.

MS ROGERS: Okay. So we will not be able to see any of the gender-based analysis that has been done on Budget decisions.

CHAIR: Those are Cabinet documents, and Cabinet documents, Gerry, I do not think can be released.

MS ROGERS: Cabinet is not prepared to release any of the gender-based analysis that has been done.

CHAIR: The minister cannot speak to that, Gerry.

MS ROGERS: Okay. Thank you very much.

I want to thank you very much for your time. Thank you once again for your work and your dedication to improving the status of women and the work you are doing to improve that status of women and the work that women's groups and organizations are doing across the Province.

Thank you very, very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Gerry.

Can I ask the Clerk to call the subheads, please?

CLERK: Subhead 2.7.01 to 2.7.02 inclusive.

CHAIR: Will the subheads 2.7.01 to 2.7.02 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Those against?

Carried.

On motion, subheads 2.7.01 through 2.7.02 carried.

CHAIR: Will the total heads carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Those against?

Carried

On motion, Women's Policy Office, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Thank you.

That concludes the Women's Policy section of this morning's Social Services Committee meeting. We now move forward to Child, Youth and Family Services which can be found in our Estimates document at 14.3, starting with Executive –

MS SULLIVAN: Mr. Chair, if we could have just a minute to rearrange our seating here, so that we can have the right people –

CHAIR: Sure, yes. I am just trying to get everybody up to speed here, Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: All right. Thank you.

CHAIR: We will go to 14.3, and we will do the rearrangement.

Gerry, Mr. Kirby is attending. So we will take five, folks, and we will get it reorganized, and Mr. Kirby will be available.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, we are ready to resume. Andrew, you are on the clock.

Minister, do you want a few opening remarks as we move into Child, Youth and Family Services, or can we just pick it up and continue?

Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: I have had a briefing around Child, Youth and Family Services. This has not been a department in which I have ever worked. The briefing last night was very informative for me and I see some fabulous work. Of course we have all heard, through a number of announcements, of the work that is happening.

This of course is a department that has been newly created. From what I can tell, 2012-2013 was about working towards the transition of this new department, with Labrador just recently transferring or about a year now in March of 2012, from the regional health authority over to the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services.

The department I think throughout this year, even though it was still a year of transition, has done some remarkable work. Particularly around the Continuum of Care Strategy around the block funding formula for foster parents, which I have heard on a number of occasions has resulted in some very positive feedback from communities for sure.

The RFP for contracted services and promotion of fostering through the Foster a Future campaign is certainly receiving all kinds of accolades as well. We are seeing such huge increases in numbers of children who have now been able to be placed in homes. Forty-seven children being placed in homes with thirty-one new homes approved as a result, or it appears to be as a result of that particular campaign. So again, some pretty impressive work happening around that.

The 10-Year Child Care Strategy, which has to do with staffing particularly, was addressed through the ELCC supplement program and some other initiatives within that strategy, the implementation of the Family Child Care Initiative project to increase the number of family child care homes and spaces.

The staff ratio as well, particularly as it pertains to the number of social workers, the goal was to have a one-to-twenty caseload on a provincial basis. I am happy to have learned last night that the ratio is currently at one to twenty-one, down from twenty-seven, twenty-eight. That is certainly significant progress in a very short period of time.

Also, the caseload around supervisors to social workers aimed for one to six. That has been realized. I believe that is the result of some very significant work having happened in the reorganization of the department, and in the vigilance I think that was given to these particular cares and concerns.

Student placement positions speak, I believe, to the department's real commitment to being able to ensure that there are adequate social workers in the field who are available to come to work. Throughout the year they are able to provide placements for seventy student social workers, thirty-five each term. I believe that will pay off. It is a very progressive approach to recruitment and retention.

I know from my own department, the work that we do around recruitment and retention shows that through placements, particularly in rural parts of the Province, we often achieve much better recruitment results. The Estimates will work through I am sure, line by line to look at areas within the documents where we have done some belt tightening and so on within Child, Youth and Family Services.

Other than that, I think I will just leave it and we will work through the line by line items. I beg your indulgence; I have not been involved in Child, Youth and Family Services. I will do my best to take you through the Estimates. The policy decisions around Child, Youth and Family Services are not a place I can go.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

I will turn it over to you, Andrew.

MS SULLIVAN: Do you want more than six?

CHAIR: Just give Kimberley a chance.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.

I am going to ask a question about the department as a whole. On Budget day there was a backgrounder that came out. It said the number of employees in CYFS is 734, but the budget numbers say 779. I am just wondering what the difference between the two is?

MS SULLIVAN: Seven hundred and seventy-nine is the correct number, but maybe I can ask Julie to explain it.

MS MOORE: Yes. I do not have the specific difference, but I can tell you I figure that the chances are those are the temporary employees who may have been converted to permanent over the period of time. A timing difference would be my guesstimate.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MS COMPANION: I could add to that.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: We did a full reconciliation of all of our staff, all of our permanent employees and all of our temporary employees. Now we have a full list and we know exactly where our staff is. Those numbers may have been before we did our reconciliation as well, but our numbers are showing us that we have 779 staff.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, so there are 779. Is there a breakdown available to show which ones are permanent, temporary, and casual?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: We can get that for you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

It was expected that there were going to be two layoffs and three vacant positions eliminated. Can you confirm this, and what the positions were?

MS SULLIVAN: What line are we talking here, Andrew?

MR. A. PARSONS: Actually, I am looking at the –

MS SULLIVAN: Are we in the Minister's Office?

MR. A. PARSONS: No, we are in the Budget backgrounder for CYFS. I am just looking at the department as a whole.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay. Lori Anne can speak to that for you.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: We had five positions that were affected. Three were vacant, and they were not a part of our model when we did our review. One was a clerical position that was outside of our model, and the other was a temporary person who was appointed for a transition of the department from the regional health authorities. That position was actually finished anyhow because we had completed transition over the last year. We would not be focusing on transition now, we are on to transformation.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. I am going to move past the Minister's Office to Executive Support, 1.2.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.2.01, Executive Support, page 14.3.

MR. A. PARSONS: There is something there in Salaries which has been unusual, which is actually an increase. I am just wondering, can you explain the increase? How many positions and what they were?

MS SULLIVAN: Salaries are estimated to be higher with the addition of an Inquiries Co-ordinator's position and then there is some re-profiling of previously included positions that were in Corporate Services. There is also the anticipated retirement of three staff that would require increased funding within that department.

Again, when we talk about moving funding from one heading to another, Corporate Services, for example, over here to Executive Support, realizing again that this has been a department in transition and sometimes the right envelope of money has been applied, but it may have been in a division that it ought not to have been.

So as the department, I think, gets more fully operational – not that it is not operational - it certainly is operational, but as it gets into the fully transformed department, I think we will start to see the envelopes moved into the right divisions.

MR. A. PARSONS: This Inquiries Co-ordinator position is a new position? Is that based in St. John's and what is the pay range?

MS SULLIVAN: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: The Inquiries Co-ordinators were with us last year. They were not new positions for this year, but they were under Corporate Services. So you will see there will be a decrease in the Salaries under Corporate Services. We just had to put it in the right envelope. The Inquiries Co-ordinators are GS-40 positions.

CHAIR: Julie.

MS MOORE: Social work level, about $85,000 or $86,000 a piece.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving forward to 1.2.02, Corporate Services. Last year you spent about $2.3 million less than budgeted, so I am assuming some of this was with the transition, and you used the term different envelopes. Can you just break it down so we have an understanding?

MS SULLIVAN: Salaries are $2.3 million lower due to delays in filling some of the positions. For example, a finance corporate position, human resources training unit, policy leadership positions, information management positions, and quality positions. That unit was not fully staffed in the 2012-2013. The total savings of all of that would be $2.3 million.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know that the salaries estimated for this year are lower than what was budgeted the year before, now I know some of these are moving – are there any that are being cut but not moved; there are not cuts in that section?

MS SULLIVAN: What I am seeing here is the transfer of those two Inquiries Co-ordinators again. That again is just moving the envelope of money around between executive services and corporate. Also, I am seeing the elimination of temporary funding for three vacant positions. That again was related to the transition itself.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under line 06 of that, Purchased Services, you are spending about $85,000 more than you spent last year. What are the new types of services being purchased?

MS SULLIVAN: That is the accommodations lease for the new quality division of Child, Youth and Family Services. That new division has been created this year and it is in Grand Falls-Windsor. That is the lease itself.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is a nice district I hear.

MS SULLIVAN: That is a great district. They are doing great quality work out there, too.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under 1.2.03, Professional Services, last year there was just over $100,000 more spent than budgeted. What were the professional services?

MS SULLIVAN: Professional Services.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.2.03.05, Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay, I think I am almost there. That would have been the Supplies?

OFFICIAL: Professional Services.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay, Professional Services, the $350,000. Mainly due to a $250,000 promotional campaign to attract foster parents under the Continuum of Care project. There is also a reinstatement of $100,000 as part of the 3 per cent Budget reduction exercise or the rightsizing.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, so these are the ads we are seeing in newspapers about fostering and everything else?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

If I might add, I think that it is working and it is doing what it is supposed to do. I think it is a good investment. I just put that out there.

You actually covered off – I was asking about last year but I was going to ask about next year. That increase is going towards the same?

MS SULLIVAN: That is right.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Subhead 1.2.04, Administrative Support, under Property, Furnishings and Equipment we are spending about $180,000 more than was spent last year. What is it for and where?

MS SULLIVAN: What you would have seen there is that 2012-2013 had a budget of $560,000 that was budgeted to allow for the purchase of capital equipment which was actually for housing and accommodations; they were mini homes.

There were to have been two of those, one for Hopedale and one for Nain. The house was purchased for Nain. The one for Hopedale was not, but will be carried over for this year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Subhead 2.1.01, Regional Services, under the 06, Purchased Services, there is a plan to spend an additional just under $500,000. What is this for?

CHAIR: Subhead 2.1.01.06.

MS SULLIVAN: There was a $61,200 reallocation within the new department to ensure funds are captured again in the proper budget envelope. Then $231,500 is annualization relating to the completion of the regional operations model which will support – it is additional staff in operations as the department moved to the 1 to 20 ratio that we talked about earlier.

MR. A. PARSONS: So it is additional staff?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is that normally under Purchased Services?

MS SULLIVAN: Julie.

MS MOORE: Just to let you know, we did have additional staff last year and those staff created an ongoing requirement for things like extra office space and things like that. So Purchased Services is where your lease cost and things like that would be. That is why it is wrapping up in the operating line.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Good morning.

I just want to go back to a question that was asked on the number of employees; 779 was the figure, was it? Are any of those positions vacant at present?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes, there are some vacancies within the 779.

MR. KIRBY: How many positions are vacant?

MS SULLIVAN: Julie.

MS MOORE: Fifty-one vacancies.

MR. KIRBY: Fifty-one vacant positions. How many of those vacant positions are supervisory positions?

MS MOORE: I will have to look that up.

MR. KIRBY: Do we know how many of those positions are Social Workers?

MS MOORE: I can give you the total for front-line operations; about twenty-seven of those fifty-one would be front-line.

MR. KIRBY: Twenty-seven of those are Social Workers?

MS MOORE: It would be a Social Worker, a Social Work Supervisor, and a Social Work Assistant, what we would call part of that team.

MR. KIRBY: Do you have a breakdown of how many are which, because I am just interested to know – in March 2011, this announcement about the new organizational structure, I am curious to know the extent to which that has or has not been implemented.

MS MOORE: I will read them out to you. We have one Zone Manager, seven supervisors – no Zone Manager, sorry – three supervisors, two social work assistants, three community service workers, five clerical, and the remainder would be social workers.

MR. KIRBY: I am just going to read that back, three supervisors?

MS MOORE: I have three supervisors, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Two social work assistants?

MS MOORE: Two social work assistants.

MR. KIRBY: Three community service workers?

MS MOORE: Three community service workers, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Five clerical, and the remainder of the fifty-one –

MS MOORE: Of the twenty-seven.

MR. KIRBY: Oh, sorry. The remainder of the twenty-seven are social workers.

MS MOORE: Fourteen.

CHAIR: Fourteen, did you say, Julie?

MS MOORE: Yes, that is what I am counting.

MR. KIRBY: Where is the balance of that then if there are fifty-one vacancies?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Dale, I am wondering if we just might be able to take the time to get that adequately prepared for you, as opposed to trying to do it on the fly here this morning, and perhaps send it to you?

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay.

MR. KIRBY: There are only two social work assistant vacancies? Does the current complement of those positions that are supposed to be on these standard service delivery teams, does the current complement of staff work out to one supervisor, six social workers, one social work assistant, and one clerical support person?

If I was to look at all of the filled and vacant positions, would the ratio of those employees in the department work out to that or are there still deficiencies in the numbers of people who are working? Are there enough people to complete all of these teams or are some people doing double duty?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: No, we are not fully completed our model yet. So we are at one to twenty-one for the number of cases per social worker on average throughout the Province. There may be some social workers who have one to thirty because their caseloads may be different. Some may have one to fifteen.

We have on average one to six social workers; one supervisor to six social workers. That means we may have some areas where there is one to seven social workers. We may have some areas where there is one to five.

In order for us to complete our model – which we will complete hopefully next year with our four new positions that we had this year and with some of the positions we have that we can re-profile which were vacant – hopefully by next year we will be seeing ourselves down a road where we will have fully staffed one to six and one to twenty for our model.

You will find if you look through our model today, that we have vacancies in social workers and we have some vacancies in supervisors. That does not mean they are not under recruitment and are not in the process. If we have a position that has been approved and is on our books, then it is under recruitment. It is not left vacant.

You will find of our 779 permanent staff, what is remaining to be added to our model will be identified once we do a reassessment of where we are next year. Then we will identify to government how many more we need. We do not believe we are far away now from our one to twenty.

MR. KIRBY: How many additional clerical support personnel will we need to have hired in order to complete these teams in the way that this is configured in the March, 2011 release?

MS COMPANION: To complete the one to twenty-one, which is where we are, we will be at a one to twenty when we add more positions to get down to that level.

For the clerical positions, we would not need to add to the clerical positions right now to be at one to twenty. We would just need to make sure we fill our vacant positions, which is what we are doing.

MR. KIRBY: The one to twenty refers to social workers, specifically.

MS COMPANION: It does.

MR. KIRBY: I am wondering about the support personnel who round out those teams, the social work assistants and the clerical support personnel. Are there an adequate number of those individuals now to fully fill out all of these teams?

MS COMPANION: All the teams have been identified. A team consists of a supervisor, six social workers, a clerical position, and a social work assistant position. All those teams have been identified. Whether we have enough social work positions, once we get our case closures completed and once we get our quality data on those files really rolling, then we will know if we are at the one to twenty or not with our caseload.

The one to twenty is what will determine how many teams we need. That is how we did our analysis. We took the number of cases we had and we broke it down by – we would want a social worker to have twenty cases. That determined how many social worker supervisors we needed and how many social workers, how many clerical, and how many SWAs we needed. So our teams have been created.

MR. KIRBY: Would there be instances now where there would be one social work assistant providing support for either more than six social workers or more than one of the standard service delivery teams?

MS COMPANION: There may be, depending on whether we have those positions filled or not, and if they are in the process of recruitment. Under our model, it will provide for one clerical person and one SWA for each team.

MR. KIRBY: How many of those twenty-seven positions are currently under active recruitment? All of them? Because we have just come out of this hiring freeze, I am not really clear on what –

MS COMPANION: They are all under recruitment. Last year we did 167 recruitments in our department, which is a lot of recruitment. We have seventy competitions currently ongoing. We will be moving on some other competitions in the very near future.

We did not stop filling our social worker and social worker assistant positions. We completed right on through. We had some really priority areas, and our social workers and our front line staff were critical. They are all in competition and we do not wait to fill them. We fill them as soon as they become vacant.

Actually, how we do our recruitment most of the time for our front line workers is we do eligibility lists because that enables us. As soon as we have a vacancy, we have a list. We have already had somebody interviewed. We are able to call them right away.

The people who are on our eligibility list, we get them in and get them trained before they are even in a position, so that we do not have a lag in between and that we have positions vacant on the team. So that is some of the recruitment measures we have utilized to try and reduce having vacancies in the region.

CHAIR: A follow-up question, Dale, or are you good for now?

MR. KIRBY: I can wait.

CHAIR: Okay.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go to 3.1.01, Direct Client Services. Under Allowances and Assistance, the amount of money in Estimates is very similar to the amount spent last year. Is there a breakdown on how this money is spent?

CHAIR: Subhead 3.1.01.09, Allowances and Assistance, Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: I do not have a breakdown here in my notes.

Lori Anne, do you have something?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: We can speak generally to that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MS COMPANION: It is a lot of money; it is a lot of individual transactions. The Allowances and Assistance is really what we use to provide our program dollars to our clients. Our Grants and Subsidies is what we provide to our group homes and any organizations who do work with us and for us, like the Family and Child Care Connections. The Allowances and Assistance is where we pay all the supports for our children and our families.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MS COMPANION: It is through Allowances and Assistance is where we really were able to do our continuum of care.

MR. A. PARSONS: When you put it together, is there a breakdown for regions? Do you know what you are paying out per region? I know it is a lot to have a full list, but I am saying if there is sixty-nine, do you have an idea of what is being spent in Eastern-Western, Lab?

MS COMPANION: We have a notional idea, but over the last year we did not know because our regions were different than the regional health authorities. So we did not really know what Central-East would really spend, and we had to try to make sure we had that funding covered to be able to move it where we needed it for the families that we had.

This year, we might be in a better position to be able to do that because we have a year under our belt now, but the big thing that has changed is that our new continuum of care has happened and we will have all new policies and programs on that and really tightening up around what is approved and what is not approved and having a process to roll that up for approval.

So, it is probably going to be another year of us trying to figure it out, but next year, when we have our continuum of care implemented for a year, block funding has been – it has become my second nature, then we should really be able to adequately do our regions by a breakdown.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am just curious, under the revenue section, federal revenue, what is the reason for the funding? I think it is $12.8 million this year.

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: It is through a federal-provincial youth justice agreement; and you can see that there is a loss of funds there this year. It was the unilateral decision by the federal government. In terms of what it is targeted for, I will ask Lori Anne to give the detail.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: The federal revenue, a portion of that is for the youth corrections for the youth who run into trouble with the law and do community service. The other portion of that is for the INAC agreement, the Aboriginal agreement.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: It is significant to notice as well that CYFS has absorbed those cuts. They were cut by the federal government, but CYFS will absorb those funds.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving to – actually, I have run through most of my line by line, if I might just ask some more general questions. I understand the situation the minister is in, but you have very qualified, capable, and confident people around you.

MS SULLIVAN: I do; however, it is not their job to justify policy decisions. That is the job of the ministry itself and of the minister herself. If there are generic questions around some policies, then we are okay with some of that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I will speak as generically as I can and it will be up to the minister whether there is an answer forthcoming.

I have to ask because we all know the report that came out not that long ago by the advocate. The advocate outlines some significant issues here: the last of documentation, communication, assessment, and collaboration. I am just wondering: What is being done by the department to address the issues outlined by the advocate?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: As with the Susan Abell report we have accepted the recommendations, agreed with the recommendations, and we are moving forward. Lori Anne can give you some specifics with regard to the recommendations that were there and actions that have been taken, if you need that information.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

I am just going to move forward here. Under the recommendations there is a number that was common throughout the three reports. One of them was to ensure that child protection reports are properly and totally completed, which must be done at time of intake to include all relevant information. What percentage of these is completed fully and properly right now?

MS SULLIVAN: Lori Anne can provide some detail around that.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: We implemented our quality unit to start to monitor that. We did some baseline data as soon as the regions came on with us. The baseline data was pretty reflective of Susan Abell's report and some of the recommendations in the CYA.

We have implemented quality indicators as the department's regions reports monthly on child protection reports, risk assessments, family-centred action plans. We collect monthly data. We review it monthly, as soon as it comes. We do interventions when we see that it is not rising as quickly as it should, or that we believe it should.

We are not at 100 per cent because it is going to take a while and it takes a while to get there, but we have seen some pretty significant increases. Western was our first region to transition. We have seen increases of 50 per cent in their FCAPs, family planning, and child protection reports done. We have seen huge increases in making sure that things happen immediately when referrals are made.

We have seen significant increases in Central. Metro has just started reporting because they just got their model running. We monitor regularly. We do regular interventions and we are definitely seeing progress – amazing progress.

MR. A. PARSONS: Was there any staff hired who are tasked with doing this, or is it sort of laid on the people already within the system?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: Minister, are you okay?

MS SULLIVAN: No, that is fine.

MS COMPANION: Every social worker has a responsibility to report on their files. We are at a 1 to 21 and when get to 1 to 20, 20 cases should be fairly reasonable, at this point, to be able to report and report accurately on your work. It is part of proper case management, proper management from an operational perspective.

Supervisors are also engaged and supervisors review those reports and they do audits. They are required to do a minimum of two audits on each social worker's file every month to make sure that the work is being done and checking the quality of the work. It helps in the clinical decision making, too, because if a social worker starts to go down a path probably where they might want to rethink, then the supervisor is engaged and it provides a significant means to be able to keep things from going too far off the rails.

MR. A. PARSONS: Two per month; so the goal is basically one out of every ten for each social worker, when it all put in place, will be looked at each month. That is the goal?

MS COMPANION: It is and we have a quality unit which also does audits.

MR. A. PARSONS: It says here: The department much ensure that children are physically and critically observed during a referral and always observed during every home visit. Has this policy been implemented or was it already in place?

MS COMPANION: It is in place. It was through the new act. The new legislation provides the social worker with the ability and the authority to be able to observe and interview everyone who is in the home.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I have one topic. I am going to start it now, but I will probably have to come back. I guess I will just move off now and I will get it when I come back.

CHAIR: Okay, fine. Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks.

In addition to getting a list of those vacant positions, I am wondering if it is possible to also get a list of the current personnel who would form these service delivery teams. How many supervisors, how many social workers in total, how many social work assistants, and how many clerical support personnel would be working with those teams? Is it possible for me to get a list of how many of those positions are filled at present?

MS SULLIVAN: Sure. Again, you are not looking for the names of personnel, you are simply looking for the numbers of positions and how many are filled. Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I am also interested to know about the extent of personnel turnover in the department as a result of layoffs and bumping throughout the department. In particular, I am thinking about the Whitbourne situation. There would be a number of child and youth workers who are working out there for extended periods of time who would be bumping through the system. What is the extent of turnover personnel that is resulting from that and other –

MS SULLIVAN: We will get those numbers for you as well.

MR. KIRBY: You will be able to provide a breakdown of how many people – I am interested to know how many staff has been bumped out of the department to basically provide a place for those who, by virtue of their collective agreement, are entitled to bump in somewhere.

MS SULLIVAN: I am going to ask Lori Anne to speak to that for a second because I think we can offer some clarification around that this morning.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: That process has not fully worked through yet. There are some people in Whitbourne who would be considering bumping into some of our positions. That process has not worked through, so we have not yet seen the end result of that. We can provide that once we see the end result, if that is okay with you.

MR. KIRBY: When will that process be complete?

CHAIR: Julie.

MS MOORE: We have, I am thinking, in the range of thirty to forty-five days for that bumping to take effect. It would have started; my estimate is early in May. We probably have thirty more days before it is all worked through the system because that is a different bargaining unit than say GS. People have to identify and consider their options. Then they may cause multiple bumps, et cetera, and things like that.

MR. KIRBY: The department will be able to provide me with some accounting of that process then once it is – if I follow up in June, the end of next month, to see what has happened?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Another thing I wanted to ask about was the – this press release is dated February 11, 2013.

MS SULLIVAN: What line are we on? I am sorry.

MR. KIRBY: Well, I do not know. That is a good question, maybe you can tell me.

This is the Request For Proposals – let me see if I have it noted here where I think it is. This is the long-term Continuum of Care Strategy, and this Request For Proposals, the deadline for submissions was noon, Friday, March 22.

Perhaps this falls under Direct Client Services, 3.1.01. I am just wondering about the status of that RFP because we have not heard anything about it since.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay. Go ahead.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: That is the RFP for our out-of-home placement for residential care. That closed in March. That is a significant piece of work. It is for every group, group home, and individual living arrangements throughout the Province. It is currently being reviewed by our internal staff. We expect to see those awards in the coming months for sure.

MR. KIRBY: In the coming months?

MS COMPANION: Yes, it is a big process.

MR. KIRBY: Yes. So, by the end of this summer?

MS COMPANION: Yes, we would expect to see that by the end of this summer.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Is there some plan to have a quality framework incorporated into that somehow, that there can be some assessment of quality and accountability for quality provided through those contracts?

MS COMPANION: Absolutely. There will be a very significant contract put in place with the award of the RFP and it will absolutely provide quality of care, regular reporting and monitoring, review of contracts, regular updates, and regular process, as we would with all other contracts.

MR. KIRBY: What is the extent to which that information will be available to me, the framework and the quality, the reporting mechanisms, and so on?

MS COMPANION: They are under regular access. They will be individual contracts with organizations and no different than any other contract. It will be a contract for service.

MR. KIRBY: Yes. Is that something I would be able to access then? I can request it, but I request information and I get back black pieces of paper.

MS SULLIVAN: Does anybody here know about contracts? Do we release individual contracts that we have with outside agencies?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: Yes, we do.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay.

MS COMPANION: We release contracts all the time. If we have a contract with Choices for Youth and somebody asks for that contract, it is public money with an organization and that is the contract. There would be no reason, from my estimation, why they would not be subject to those kinds of –

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Is there any particular plan at present for how these arrangements will be monitored, or is that to be determined? I often hear complaints or hear from people who have concerns about the extent to which companies that are providing those services at present are being monitored, or at least the perception. There is a perception that the monitoring is not sufficient.

MS COMPANION: That was the whole purpose of our RFP, to see who can provide those services, to be able to get the best care, and at a reasonable and contracted price. The other purpose is to make sure we have contracts in place that are monitored, regular process, follow up, and know about the care of our children and what is being provided.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. You may have it there; you may not. I am interested in the current number of children and the ages of those children, at least the age groups, a breakdown of the ages of the children who are in ALAs and ILAs by region.

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: We do have that information here. It might be easier just to put it together in a package and send it over to you.

MR. KIRBY: Sure. Do you want me to follow up to request this information? It is just that last year I –

MS SULLIVAN: No, we are taking notes here. That is fine.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, because I had not heard from either of the other departments last year by November. Then I decided to write to them at that point so that we could have the information at least by this Budget year.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay.

MR. KIRBY: I can write sooner than later to follow up on these, yes.

MS SULLIVAN: Sure, if you will. Okay, you can give us a specific list then.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MS SULLIVAN: It is here.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, I will stop there.

CHAIR: Okay.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am just going to go back to the recommendations. The ones I am talking about are the ones that were found in each of the reports, all three.

CRMS, the Client Referral Management System, the recommendation was that information must be entered as per prescribed standards. I am just wondering: how is CRMS working these days? Is the recommendation being followed?

MS SULLIVAN: Are you asking some general questions around the reports, or are we going to go through all of these recommendations?

MR. A. PARSONS: Actually, I was probably going to end with this one.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay, that is fine. I needed to have some direction as to where it was that you were going.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MS SULLIVAN: It is just one more of them.

Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: Yes, we have implemented that recommendation as well. We have significant documentation standards in place that were released in July of 2012. As of this day forward documentation shall be entered into CRMS and the file shall be completed. It is a part of the quality monitoring process then for documentation and for CRMS.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there a new system that was going to be implemented? If that is the case, when is that coming in?

MS COMPANION: The new system, the RFP closed in March.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MS COMPANION: I think it was March, or in February. The assessment is being completed. We should see that being awarded in the coming weeks and months. We will definitely be down the road of a new system which is going to make the difference.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there anticipated cost to the system, any internal?

MS COMPANION: We do not really know what the full cost will be because we have not awarded the project yet. So, I would not be able to –

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. No, that is what I said, anticipated. Is there any ballpark?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: We would not put that out there when we are in the process of doing the RFP, Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. I am just going to move forward to some other general stuff.

We received a couple of briefing notes from the department on Friday, and it says there were two internal reviews completed on the house fire case that we all know resulted in tragedy. I am just wondering, who did the reviews? Was it someone external or someone internal to the department?

MS SULLIVAN: It was internal.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Were there any changes implemented as a result of the investigations?

MS COMPANION: What our process is is we do the internal review. We identify if there was an act of omission or commission and if there was something that we need to follow up on from a policy perspective. We then meet with the region, we meet with staff, we make any necessary policy changes, and we make sure that those issues are identified.

MR. A. PARSONS: When I look at the briefing notes and it says internal investigation, so that is someone obviously within the department. It is not someone brought in, it is within. Okay. So the department investigates the department?

MS COMPANION: Actually, they should probably be called file reviews. We review our file, we check to make sure that we did what was required.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are internal reviews treated differently than the Advocate reviews in terms of recommendations? Is there a difference, or are they all looked at and sort of handled the same?

MS COMPANION: Our reviews look at the same kind of thing that the Advocate would look at. We look at: Was policy followed? Were things done in accordance with our legislation and with our policies and procedures? We look at if there was an action that should have happened or did not happen, and we follow up from that perspective.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there any internal recommendations that are not followed or implemented at this point?

MS COMPANION: No, not that – no. Any reviews that we do of a file we follow up and the changes happen. Our policy people do the review.

MR. A. PARSONS: According to these notes, CYFS is engaging an external consultant to finalize an operating grant program, and the deadline to apply for this was in February. Can you provide us an update on what the goal of the RFP is and where we stand?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: The RFP, the minister would have mentioned that last year when we announced it, when the 10-Year Child Care Strategy was announced, and when we developed the operating grant program we did an internal notional program that we would have believed would have been appropriate but we really need to do a check and balance with an outside organization to make sure before we roll out an operating grant program that it is going to be something that will really work for people. That it will be something that is going to be successful.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has it been awarded?

MS COMPANION: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Who was it awarded to?

MS COMPANION: It was awarded to Ernest and Young.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. The terms of the RFP, when do you expect a report back or some kind of –

MS SULLIVAN: Go ahead, Donna.

MS O'BRIEN: We are expecting no later than early fall.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

This is another general question. It is something that has come up in the House though, and that is the issue up in Natuasish with the gas sniffing, which is troubling and it is long term and does not seem to be getting any better. What is the department doing in terms of concrete measures to address it? Because we just saw it in the last couple of weeks. Are we trying something new?

Again, this is something that has been around for so long, yet we are still facing. I do not know if the department – obviously it has been discussed, I know that, but what are we going to do to address it?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: There certainly has been an inordinate amount of attention paid to this issue because, as you indicated, this is a very serious issue. There have been conversations held with the two chiefs. I think there has been some agreement come to. In terms of sitting down and having conversations, the chiefs are very insistent that we needed to understand from their perspective the kinds of initiatives that needed to be put in place.

We have had one round table discussion. The acting minister was involved in conversation with both chiefs; I think early last week, if I am not mistaken. Donna and some of her people are scheduled to go up and meet early next week, I believe, Donna?

MS O'BRIEN: Yes, the middle of next week.

MS SULLIVAN: The middle of next week. As well, the acting minister has committed to also go into Labrador to sit down and have those important conversations on the ground, not just with the chiefs but with other people who are there. That in terms of the dialogue is where we have come to this point in time and we will continue to follow up with that.

We have a complement of staff as well who are working there. We have seven staff who we have working. I do not recall all of the details in terms of who is where, I used to know that.

We have staff from Western who are going in as well. They are all looking at creative ways to keep children in their own communities. That is essentially the issue, finding a way to keep children with their families and keep children in their communities.

It is at this stage, still in the stage of ongoing consultation. The chiefs have been very supportive of the actions that we are taking at this point in time.

MR. A. PARSONS: The department signed I think it is three MOUs with Aboriginal communities in Labrador. Are we able to get a copy of these memorandums?

MS SULLIVAN: Yes, they are on-line.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

The last question I will get in, going back to the issue in Sheshatshiu where the office was boarded up. Can you give us an update on it? How many children are there in care in our Province?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: There are 775 children in care.

MR. A. PARSONS: Seven hundred and seventy-five?

MS COMPANION: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many of these children are Aboriginal?

MS COMPANION: Aboriginal children in care, 262.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Of these children, how many children are kept in the community and how many are sent down to the Province?

MS COMPANION: We do have that number; I just do not have it with me. We do know, just one second.

Donna, do you remember that number from yesterday?

MS O'BRIEN: Pardon me?

CHAIR: Donna.

MS COMPANION: Do you remember the number from yesterday? How many children are in (inaudible) and how many of them are (inaudible)?

MS O'BRIEN: I can get that information for you, but unfortunately I cannot recall that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. I am just wondering, how many are sent to the Island versus how many are sent outside of the Province as well? Are we able to get that?

MS O'BRIEN: All the children of those communities who are not in the Province?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MS O'BRIEN: I can certainly get those for you, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Excellent.

CHAIR: Okay. Are you good, Andrew?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I just want to go back to the RFP on the Continuum of Care Strategy. I do not know if I am missing something, but what is the plan going forward for infant care, where they will be placed?

MS SULLIVAN: Sorry, I did not hear the question, but go ahead.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: The plan for infant care is for us to increase our foster homes.

MR. KIRBY: Increase foster homes.

MS COMPANION: Increase the number of foster homes. That is exactly where we believe infants should be. Our promotional campaign is showing some significant signs of increasing foster homes, and that is what our plan is for infants.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

On page 14.7, Child Care Services, 4.1.01; the total amount budgeted for 2013-2014 is $26.3 million but the backgrounder for the Budget that was released on March 26 talks about an investment of $31.1 million in 2013-2014 for child care. Where is the balance of that? Child Care Services is $26.8 million, where is the remainder to make up to $31.1 million?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: There was funding when we transferred the staff from the regional health authorities. There was some funding that was for child care that was deferred. That $3-point-some-odd million is being utilized from our deferred revenues. It is one-time funding, and the government will pick up that one-time funding thereafter.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. The backgrounder for the Budget breaks that funding down into different categories, Child Care Services subsidy, Early Learning and Child Care Supplement, et cetera. Is that funding you are referencing, the $3.5 million or whatever it is, is that spread across these programs and initiatives or is it –

MS COMPANION: Yes, it is. It is the one pot of money for these programs and initiatives, as you can see in Estimates.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. There was a two-year regulated family care pilot project. Do we have any sense of the results of that or the number of new family daycares that the Province now has as a result of that?

MS SULLIVAN: Go ahead.

MS COMPANION: We have over 700 spaces in family child care homes. Our Family Child Care Initiative, the pilot, produced over 400 spaces over the last two years. It was an initiative that was a pilot and it will be continuing, as noted in the release for this year.

MR. KIRBY: I just want to throw this out there because I am personally affected by this. In the case of family child care centres, I would be hesitant to say always the case, but it is close to always the case, that there is just one care provider on site. I am not aware of any contingency plan for when that person is ill or that person is bereaved or what have you. It would seem to me that families would be, occasionally, fairly inconvenienced. We are talking up to four children – families would be fairly inconvenienced when that child care is not available during the flu season.

It is not like a regulated child care centre where there are multiple staff on site who can kick in or they can call somebody in on an on-call basis to provide child care. Is this something that is considered at all? I am not sure what the solution is but it is certainly a problem, I think.

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: I understand, and we are evaluating the family child care pilot. That is why it was a pilot, so we can have a look now and see how we need to tweak it, what we need to do. It is certainly something that we will be identifying as an issue, whether we have a solution at this point, but we will certainly be identifying it as an issue to assess under our family child care program.

MR. KIRBY: Yes. I think workplace productivity is a really important metric to consider when it comes to the provision of child care because if mom and dad, or mom or dad, are unable to work than obviously that has some economic impact and something we want to try and avoid.

Under 10, Grants and Subsidies, there is slightly more budgeted this year. It is $134,000 thereabouts additional. Do you have records that show the number of families and then the number of children who are in receipt of the subsidies? Do you have that data?

CHAIR: Minister.

MS SULLIVAN: Yes, we can get that to you. The $134,000 or $133,900 that you are referring to is for out-year funding. It is the escalator clause. That accounts for that funding as part of the 10-Year Child Care Strategy, but we can certainly get you the other information that you are looking for as well.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I am interested in what we were getting for what we were spending and then now what is it we are getting extra as a result of this specifically, the numbers of families who are benefitting and numbers of kids. Obviously, sometimes there are multiple children.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay.

MR. KIRBY: I am also wondering if we can get a breakdown of the number of regulated centres, the number of family daycares, and the number of spaces by region, because I am interested. Obviously, this situation on the Northeast Avalon would be different than the Burin Peninsula, Central, Western, or Labrador.

MS SULLIVAN: Okay. That is no problem.

MR. KIRBY: I do not think I have any other questions here.

Under 09, Allowances and Assistance, what does that provide for specifically under that line?

CHAIR: Subhead 4.1.01.09, is that what we are referring to, Dale?

MR. KIRBY: Correct, yes.

MS SULLIVAN: Allowances paid to individuals, I do not have any detail with regard to that.

Lori Anne, do you have detail with regard to what is paid under those allowances to individuals?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

It is 4.1.01.09, Allowances and Assistance, Lori Anne.

MR. KIRBY: It is $17.4 million.

MS COMPANION: Yes. The Allowances and Assistance would be our inclusion programs where we pay inclusion benefits. It would include our ECE supplements, which we provide through that program. It is the funding through all of our child care programs.

MR. KIRBY: The inclusion grants are included in here for children with –

MS COMPANION: With special needs.

MR. KIRBY: With special needs?

MS COMPANION: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: There are other things obviously included in that as well?

MS COMPANION: Yes, it is inclusion, and it is all of our programs. It is our Inclusion Program, our subsidy program, our Early Learning Child Care Supplement program.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. I would also like to know then how many daycares and how many early childhood educators are receiving some form of subsidy through there.

MS COMPANION: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Then the other thing – sorry, not to go on but…

CHAIR: Yes, I will let you (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: The other thing I am interested in is the administrative processing period for the inclusion grants. You hear things anecdotally. I do not know if things are correct or not, that sometimes it takes an inordinate amount of time for that to be processed. I do not know if that is a fact or not, but it is something I have heard.

When it is your kids and they have special education needs, and I guess people are very vigilant about making sure their kids have the quality of care they need, but I am not sure if it is that or if it is – I would just like to know, what is the average time period for processing these applications?

CHAIR: Lori Anne.

MS COMPANION: We have our Inclusion Program. The Inclusion Program has not yet been – have the intense review that we have done with some other programs, like the Continuum of Care and the 10-Year Strategy, but you will see the Inclusion Program being reviewed very soon. It is on our immediate to-do list. That will look at the wait times, how long it takes, what needs to be done to make sure it works well and properly.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

Thanks.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a number of questions left but I think many of them can be answered via correspondence. I am going to be asking about out-of-province placements, just updates on numbers for regions, alternative and independent living arrangements, and things like that. Can I get confirmation that if I put these in letter format I will get the numbers that you have? That is not an issue?

MS SULLIVAN: That is not a problem at all.

MR. A. PARSONS: The other one is foster families and foster homes, just the breakdowns per region. I guess that will go with some of the other questions we have. It is probably easier for you to sit back and look at your numbers and put them all in the one and send it off.

Mr. Chair, those are all the questions I have. I would just like to thank the minister for pinch-hitting and doing such a good job. I would also like to thank the department and the officials for taking the time to be with us here today and answering the questions.

Thank you very much.

MS SULLIVAN: Mr. Chair, if I could, to one of the questions that Andrew asked earlier around the total number of Aboriginal children in care.

CHAIR: Sure.

MS SULLIVAN: I think we misspoke. We said 262, it is 282 – old eyes over here, Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: No comment, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Fair, Andrew.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: I have no further questions.

Thank you.

CHAIR: There being no further questions, I want to once again, Minister, thank you for pinch-hitting. You did a great job. I want to thank all the staff who came and answered all the questions, and provided all of us with some great information this morning. It has been great being here.

Just before we leave, there are a couple of small things. First, I am going to ask the Clerk to call the subheads, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01

CHAIR: 1.1.01.

Shall the first subhead carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: 1.2.01 to 4.1.02, inclusive.

CHAIR: 1.2.01 to 4.1.02, inclusive.

Shall those subheads carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 4.1.02 carried.

CLERK: Total.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services and Women's Policy approved?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services and Women's Policy carried without amendment.

CHAIR: One last short piece of business and, seeing the Page is not here, I will do it. We need to approve the minutes of our last meeting.

Can I have a motion to approve the May 2 minutes of the Social Services Committee for the Department of Health and Community Services?

MR. A. PARSONS: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Parsons; seconded by Mr. Crummell.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those opposed?

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for your time this morning. It has been a wonderful meeting. Have a nice afternoon.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.