The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin the routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome, on behalf of all members, fifty Grade V students from St. Peter's Elementary in the district of Port de Grave, accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Winston Lynch, David White, Ms. Debbie Williams, and Ms. Marguerite Mercer, Vice-Principal.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the House today Mr. Clayton Ledrew, the Mayor of Summerford.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform hon. members that government has reached an agreement with the Salvation Army for the purchase of the Grace Hospital properties. The purchase price for the acquisition of properties is $4.765 million, payable over the next six years at an interest rate of 9.38 per cent.

This agreement was negotiated over the past year and reflects principles similar to the agreement signed between government and the sisters of Mercy for the purchase of the St. Clare's properties. Under the agreement, government will reimburse the Salvation Army for buildings and lands as well as cash contributions to the Grace Hospital.

The presence of the Salvation Army will continue while the Grace Hospital remains in operation. In addition, two board members nominated by the Salvation Army will continue to serve on the board of the Health Care Corporation of St. John's. The Salvation Army will play a key role in ethical issues through the Health Council, which will continue to advise the Health Care Corporation Board on such matters.

While services at the Grace Hospital will be transferred to other sites, the Health Care Corporation plans to operate ambulatory clinics at the existing nurses' residence.

The acquisition of both the Grace and St. Clare's properties was necessary in view of the new board structure. Now that ownership of all properties rests with government, restructuring in the St. John's area can move forward.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the service provided by the Salvation Army to the people of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: The Salvation Army's commitment to the provision of quality health care is greatly appreciated by government and by all of the citizens of the Province. As Minister of Health, I look forward to the continued presence of the Salvation Army in the context of the overall health and social sectors.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad today to rise in response to the minister's statement. It is certainly good news to see that finally this part of the Grace Hospital has come to conclusion. I guess over the next while we will certainly be looking to the minister to find out exactly what we are now going to do with this building and, of course, we are very, very anxiously awaiting the minister's plan for the overall health care of the people in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and especially now as it relates to the closure of the Grace Hospital.

As well, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House would like to join with the minister in congratulating and thanking the Salvation Army in Newfoundland and Labrador for not only their work in the hospital industry for years, and years, and years, but for their involvement in all phases of community life in our Province. We certainly join with the minister today in congratulating and thanking the Salvation Army and we look forward to their continued good work in our Province for many years to come.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

Does he have leave?

By leave.

MR. HARRIS: I would like to just briefly respond to the statement by joining in thanking the Salvation Army for its work over many years in providing medical services in the Province through the Grace Hospital. Obviously, this is part of a large plan which we hope will improve health care in the Province and not see it deteriorate, and we will be watching carefully to see what further plans the minister has.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation who is on her way with the Premier opening up another project, and who expects to be here shortly, I would like to give the following Ministerial Statement.

I rise today to advise the hon. members that the three outstanding projects from the federal-provincial agreement on Gros Morne National Park will be actioned. The projects, totalling more than $5 million, include: cross-country ski trails; Trout River campground upgrade; and (most significantly) the construction of a Discovery Centre for Gros Morne National Park.

Mr. Speaker, Gros Morne National Park is a key tourism generator for the Province and a cornerstone of the Viking Trail and Labrador Straits tourism initiatives. The Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation has been working closely with Canadian Heritage on the Discovery Centre project, a project which will improve the region's overall tourism potential. The proposed facility will have interpretative, educational and scientific capabilities, and outreach potential that will have both national and international appeal.

Mr. Speaker, the federal and provincial governments have made significant individual and collaborative investments in developing the West Coast into a quality tourism destination. This project is indicative of a highly successful partnership between Parks Canada, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Memorial University, Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, West Viking College, the Centre for Forest and Environmental Studies, Gros Morne Co-operating Association, Joint Council of Bonne Bay South, and five West Coast/Northern Peninsula school boards.

Mr. Speaker, Gros Morne National Park became Canada's tenth World Heritage Site in 1987, and the nomination was based on the park's geological wealth, its spectacular glacier-carved scenery, its Arctic and boreal fauna, its amazing floristic diversity, and its 4,500-year history of human habitation. The aforementioned projects are being funded by the Government of Canada with non-financial support being provided by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, we received today good news on behalf of the tourism department. It is good to see that the present Provincial Government are putting such effort into developing tourism within our Province as this will be a key industry in the Province over the next number of years and, I am sure, into the new millennium.

The development of the cross-country ski trails, Trout River campground upgrade and the construction of the Discovery Centre announced for Gros Morne Park is indeed good news and I applaud the government on behalf of their efforts.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi. Does he have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a very welcome announcement, the improvements to Gros Morne Park, and the new Discovery Centre really assists in making Gros Morne Park more of a great tourist site than it has been before. It is, Mr. Speaker, I think, one of the great wonders of Canada and perhaps one of the biggest, best kept secrets, as it were, throughout the Province. When I visited there a couple of years ago, people from across Canada who were there, were amazed at what they saw and amazed how little people in the rest of Canada knew about it. One hopes that the improvement of facilities there will make it better known and an even more attractive destination for travellers from both inside and outside of Newfoundland.

MR. SPEAKER: Before we get to Oral Questions, I would like to acknowledge the presence of a former member of the House of Assembly, the former Member for Torngat Mountains in the person of Mr. William Andersen III.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health.

Will the minister confirm that because of a shortage of rooms and beds in our hospitals, people admitted to hospital for treatment are forced to spend long periods of time on stretchers in Emergency or in hospital corridors waiting for a room or a bed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

No, I cannot confirm that that is in fact happening in any and/or all of our facilities. I do know, however, that from time to time on a temporary basis, when people come in on an emergency basis or while they are waiting for patients to move in and out of rooms, that situation might occur, but it has not been brought to my attention by any of the health care boards, by any physicians or by anybody else, including the general public, that this is a problem in any of our institutions. To the contrary, I would suggest it is not.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: What does the minister say to the family of a man who was rushed to St. Clare's Emergency at six o'clock on Friday evening with a serious condition, was admitted to hospital for treatment by the doctor who saw him, was forced to wait on a stretcher in Emergency from Friday night until early Sunday morning before being moved to the surgical day care unit to wait until Sunday afternoon, when he was finally able to get a bed, later on Sunday?

Now, several others were in Emergency awaiting beds at the same time. I ask the minister: What does he have to say about a patient with a serious condition demanding treatment, having to wait for two days after being admitted to hospital before being able to get a bed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, if there is one person in the Province who sees a doctor, goes to a hospital or otherwise seeks health care services and he, for some reason, is not or cannot be attended to in the most expeditious manner, government regrets that. It is not government's intention to see anybody to be unduly or negatively impacted upon in terms of health care services by any circumstance in any part of our health care system.

If the hon. member is prepared and wishes me to specifically investigate or check out a specific situation which, heretofore, I have not been made aware of, I will be most pleased to do that in the interest of his particular concern, but more importantly, in the interest of the health care concerns of all of the people of the Province.

We intend, we are committed to and we have every intention of delivering the highest quality of health care in the most expeditious manner at the most appropriate point of delivery and in the most cost-effective manner and I think, the decisions of this year's Budget clearly indicates the commitment of this government to health care on the highest priority basis, and in the most quality-conscious and safest health-care-conscious manner.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I inform the minister that the patient to whom I referred finally had his diagnostic surgery on Monday, was given the drug Valium prior to surgery, was returned to his room on Monday afternoon.

What would the minister say to this man's daughter who was driving down LeMarchant Road last night on the way to the hospital with a friend, when she spotted her father in pyjamas and slippers walking down the sidewalk by Caul's Funeral Home, I say to the minister.

Now, how dare the minister tell people like that, and this man's daughter, that government cutbacks are not having any effect or minimal impact on staffing levels and patient care and attention at our hospitals.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, health care, illnesses, sickness, all of these sorts of things do cause stress on individuals. It is not the intention of this government, and I don't think it is the intention of the hon. member, to highlight a situation or a circumstance that might be inappropriate.

The member indicated that the man apparently received good health care on Monday, had procedures administered to him, was appropriately being administered to, and then in the same statement says that the man was seen walking down LeMarchant Road in his pyjamas. I'm not sure what the connection is, the one between the other. I would suggest this: That the health care services of the Province are not responsible for people doing inappropriate things on an unauthorized basis. If, for some reason, somebody leaves the facility on an unauthorized basis - that does unfortunately happen from time to time.

Again, if there is any suggestion, if there is any allegation, if there is any thought, the mere thought, that deficient health care services were responsible for a person being outside of the institution when he should be otherwise inside, I would ask the hon. member to bring it to my attention immediately. I will in the most expeditious manner ensure that his concerns are addressed. If there is anything untoward happening we will ensure that it is corrected post-haste.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If spending two days on a stretcher is appropriate standards, it is time to change the standards, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: When this woman and a security guard got her father in a wheelchair after taking him back to the hospital, it was there that the daughter discovered, to her shock, when they brought him back to the sixth floor, that the staff hadn't even been aware her father had gone missing. This isn't the first case, Minister, and recently, too, of patients wandering from a hospital without being noticed or missed. How can a minister keep telling us that staffing levels at our hospitals are adequate when there are patients in serious condition, some of them tranquillized after surgery and very vulnerable, who can just wander off and leave hospital without anyone realizing they are gone?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member tries to create a circumstance that gives the impression that there are either insufficient numbers of staffing levels on at the hospitals, or that the staff at our hospitals are inattentive, or uncaring, or otherwise not doing their job properly.

I take the greatest of issue with that type of suggestion by the hon. member. I want to tell the hon. member that the people I have met who work in the health care system in this Province give us, in terms of value for dollar spent, probably the best service of any public servants in the Province. We have health care workers in this Province in all our institutions every moment of every day who give 110 per cent to ensure that patient care is of the highest level.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Having said that, let me say to the hon. member that I will undertake today to check with Sister Elizabeth Davis, the CEO of the Health Care Corporation, to see, not if, in fact, there is validity to the hon. member's statement about where people may have been seen at an inappropriate time - I don't doubt the facts of some of the things he is putting forward - but I do take great exception, on behalf of the health care workers of the Province, that they are not doing their job. I would challenge the hon. member to compare his record and his employment with that of the health care workers of this Province, and I think I know who would come out on top, or at least equal to or as good as.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, the minister is trying to put his own twist on it to try to get away from his responsibility.

A former representative and head of the nurse's union, said they are understaffed and overworked - a member of your own Cabinet - and the minister is trying to deny that. Does the minister realize that hospital - that even after that person was brought back, he was not even put on around-the-clock observation in hospital even after this incident happened last night. Can't the minister see that his government's cuts have gone so deep that families can no longer trust government to properly observe their loved ones and protect them from bringing harm upon themselves while they are under the government's care?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. member that innuendo or overt suggestions with respect to health care, and how it is delivered, and the competency of the people in the system, serves no purpose in terms of bringing in improvement to the system or care specific to any person who might be in the hospital at the moment.

Let the hon. member put forward to me, as Minister of Health, anything that he believes is happening in the health care system with respect to one individual, with respect to many individuals, with respect to one institution or any part of our health care delivery system. Let him put forward to me anything that he feels needs to be addressed because it is either inappropriate, inefficient, or not doing the job otherwise as it should, and I will undertake to investigate fully and take appropriate action if I find that action needs to be taken.

Unless and until that type of information comes forward to me, I am not about to participate in an exercise that brings suspicion, that brings reproach possibly on our health care system and among the workers in the system who are doing yeomen service under sometimes difficult circumstances, day-in-and-day-out, providing health care in this Province that, by virtue of the review of an independent body like the Fraser Forum in July of 1995, told us that we have, on balance, the best health care system of any province in Canada, the shortest on average waiting list of any province in Canada for procedure, and if the hon. member wishes to debate that let him rise on another supplementary and we will talk about really where we are in terms of health care, and the quality of health care in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is spending too much time listening to people outside of our Province, and not the real people in this Province who are being hurt by the system.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: That is the problem, I say to the minister.

He keeps telling us that funding for health care has not suffered when, in fact, in real terms, that is not the case. Government, this year alone, cut 125 positions directly in this year's Budget, not counting the hundreds more who are going to be laid off by health care boards in hospitals around this Province, and virtually every day we are hearing stories about overworked nurses, understaffed hospitals, deteriorating health care, when hundreds of highly-qualified nurses cannot find work in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister: When is this minister going to stop denying that there is a health care crisis here in this Province, and start doing something to address the serious problems that he is pretending are not even there?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not sure if the hon. member is living in the real world. This year the government of this Province prioritized as its number one single public service priority, health care in the Province. We put our money where our mouth was. We committed $903.3 million to the operational side of health care, an increase of $2.3 million. And we made a further commitment that that funding level would be maintained, allowing that the system would have predictable and sustainable funding for the next three years so that into 1998-'99 the system knows where it is going.

Anything that I have heard from the system, Mr. Speaker, since then, has been nothing but positive and complimentary toward the commitment of this government to quality health care services in the Province. If the hon. member can specifically identify areas where there are gaps in the service, as I am sure there are in certain areas gaps in certain types of service, we do not deny that, but I would say that we are committed to do yeoman service in terms of ensuring they are addressed, met, filled, and that the people of the Province will continue to have high-quality health care services as they have at the moment, on balance.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Social Services. More than three years ago, on March 4, 1993, the Liberal Administration of Premier Wells promised a consultation process on a new Strategic Social Plan. We have had two general elections since then, and in February of this year the present administration promised they would unveil their Social Plan within sixty days. On May 28 in the Legislature the minister said that the printing process was holding it up.

It is now 117 days and we have had two elections since then, and twenty-one since the minister promised it. When, Madam Minister, will you be unveiling your Strategic Social Plan?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: I am happy to say that on day 118 we will be announcing the Strategic Social Plan consultation process. There will be a press conference held tomorrow when we will be outlining the details of that, and the printing is finished.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that is, of course, twice as long as the government had committed. We are delighted, but however, would have liked to have seen it when the House was open. I want to ask the minister how long will the consultation process take? Will there be public hearings in all parts of the Province? On tomorrow will she be naming the people who will be participating in the public hearings. When can we expect the process to be complete because in your Red Book you made commitments to have the program ready for implementation by early 1997? Will that target date be filled, or will you again be twice as long as you had promised you would be?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The details of the plan will be announced tomorrow. In fact, it is not a plan, it is a consultation process in order to develop a plan. We will be identifying it very clearly tomorrow. We will be identifying the time lines. We will also be identifying the chairperson, and we expect it will be twice as good because we waited twice as long.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Education. The minister has heard numerous complaints and representations made by professionals, parents, and the public at large with respect to the discontinuation of a highly-acclaimed and preferred Kindergarten program referred to as Literacy 2000. Will the minister reconsider this decision with respect to the implementation of this program for the school year commencing in September 1996?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Unfortunately the answer is, no. In the Department of Education, the government would have preferred not to have delayed implementation of this program for a year, which is what we have announced. There are other programs as well that have been tested in the field. Materials have been made available and we would like to continually make alterations in the curriculum in the schools of the Province so that the students have the best possible materials available.

We understand as well, and it has been debated in this House through petitions and other questions, that the program now in question, the Literacy Program in Kindergarten has been in use for almost twenty years and has been supplemented by materials from teachers themselves and in other areas.

Just one example, Mr. Speaker. While some people protest the decision, as is happening again today, in other areas of the Province - I was in a school last week where the materials were piloted in the last year or so. The parents themselves and the teachers in that school wanted that information and wanted that particular material available so badly that rather than organize a protest they went through a fund-raising campaign and raised the money so that they would provide the materials in the schools themselves.

The point of the matter is that with respect to some of the decisions that are made, there are a number of them in Education that we would have preferred not to have made but we are not in a position to reverse the decision with respect to the curriculum materials any more than we are with other decisions in Education.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Elitist education, that is what my response is to that comment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Despite the recommendations and the wording of a consultation paper on the senior high school program referred to as Directions for Change, and its strong language recommending the need for standardized testing, and in view of student, school and teacher protest from across the Province, will the minister re-institute a public examination system for high school students for the academic year 1996-1997?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: No, Mr. Speaker, that is certainly not the plan at this point in time. We are reviewing information again from other provinces. In areas for example like Manitoba, where it is widely acclaimed that they have a public examination system, the public examination system in Manitoba consists of one examination in one subject each year for purposes of testing. In this Province we have a very good system of checking for standards by doing evaluation and criterion referencing testing in grades III, VI and IX. We did a writing test last year which is now in the process of being corrected. Those in the view of the government are much more instrumental because they identify areas of inconsistency that might exist in program areas in the Province in time for them to be corrected and addressed while the students are still in school, rather than depend upon a school exiting examination as the only standardization criterion in the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Let's continue, Mr. Speaker. School busing has been arbitrarily discontinued for many students around the Province. Parents have voiced their concerns in large numbers. Particularly in recent date representations have been made to the minister by parents of children in and around the City of St. John's. The minister has indicated that he will take a second look at what he refers to as special cases. Does the St. John's region meet his definition of a special case, and will busing be re-instituted for children of areas such as Shea Heights, Brophy Place, just to mention two examples?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If it is identified in the meetings that are still ongoing, and the most recent set of meetings were held again yesterday with respect to school board officials in the capital city region, Metrobus officials and officials from the Department of Education. It is certainly not the intent of the Department of Education to see students to the point where they are unable to attend school,. That won't occur. There are other questions as to whether or not people can afford one system of public transit over another system of transportation, being the yellow school buses. That is a non-related issue with respect to the general principle.

There has been a long-standing policy with respect to St. John's that was introduced by a former administration over fifteen years ago when a Progressive Conservative government led this particular Province that indicated that where there is public transport available there should not be school busing also available. It is that policy that is being implemented now in all neighbourhoods of the city. If there are exceptional cases that are in fact validated they will be dealt with, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health and has to do with the operation of the provincial drug program. Pharmacists are now charging an extra billing fee directly to social assistance recipients using drug cards. Is the minister prepared to outlaw this practice as a form of extra billing, and at the same time reinstate a proper prescription filling fee for pharmacists?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We don't intend to outlaw something that we don't regulate. The question of a dispensing fee is something that is set by market forces. Dispensing fees as charged by pharmaceutical dispensaries, or drug stores if you like, range all the way I understand from $1.98 up to - the latest figure I heard this morning from one caller to open line was $8, $9. We have no intention of interfering in the marketplace in terms of setting what a pharmacist can charge as a dispensing fee. The question of whether or not that will be appropriate is - the answer to that question is that it would not be appropriate for us to interfere with the setting of a dispensary fee.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minister knows that he has total control over who accepts drug cards and what drug cards are used for and can certainly control that. Mr. Speaker, he also would know that from the calls that he has received - I am sure on Open Line and that all members have received - is that there are great hardships being caused by this. One individual called me today, he has ten or eleven prescriptions because of serious health problems for months and is being asked to pay out $30 over a month from their own resources -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I would ask him to get to his question.

MR. HARRIS: - is the minister not prepared to take this question seriously and do something about this problem? He knows he has the power. He can control the use of these drug cards and what filling fees pharmacist are charging for these. Why doesn't he do something about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question of setting a dispensing fee and the question of issuing drug cards are two totally different issues. The government does, for the Department of Social Services, determine who is eligible for a drug card. There are two basic populations, the seniors of the Province, who pay their own dispensing fee, have always paid their own dispensing fee, so there is no issue or question involved there. The other population that gets a drug card are social services recipients and we do control and we know who gets those cards.

The situation is this, that last year out of a drug budget of $54 million we spent $31 million servicing clients of the Department of Social Services. Of that $31 million that we spent for social service client prescription drugs last year, a full $8 million plus was spent on a dispensing fee only. Our proposition and our interest, Mr. Speaker, is to ensure that we put the maximum amount of that $31 million into ingredient costs so that people will have access to pharmaceutical products on a basis that is appropriate for their usage and put the minimum amount of money into the cost of providing it which is the $8 million or 33 per cent or 34 per cent. At the moment, Mr. Speaker, we have made provision for our hospitals through our clinics to provide pharmaceutical products to anybody who is on a drug card and there will not be any co-pay or any up-charge or any additional costs to them. In addition to that, there are all sorts of opportunities in the market place for people to access products -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would ask the minister to complete his answer.

MR. MATTHEWS: - at dispensing fees less than $3.50 thereby not attracting any additional costs.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is for the Minister of Environment and Labour.

Mr. Minister, summer is upon us and we see now a particular summer tradition taking place and commonly referred to as gravel pit camping. I have received a number of calls from people concerned that they may lose another Newfoundland tradition. Does the minister see this as a serious environmental issue? Is he seriously considering closing down these areas?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this is one minister and this is a government that recognizes Newfoundland and Labrador tradition but at the end of the day we are looking at all policies in the Province. We are looking at policies in tourism and the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is evaluating and in environment we are evaluating policies in environment. We have had concerns expressed to us from the parks in the Province, private park owners and so on and we have also had concerns expressed to us from communities that are near sites where we have campers on the side of the highways and so on. They have asked us to look at and evaluate the different options. We are looking at different options. We are evaluating what are the possibilities. We are looking at the different regulations that maybe we can look at to make sure that we protect rivers where campers go near rivers and so on. There is this whole situation that we are looking at but we have made no conclusions on it. We are still looking at it and still evaluating.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I say to the minister, I am not a gravel pit camper but I know a number of people who are and they take great pride in their areas and locations and they keep them very, very clean. If there is a demonstrated need to clean up certain areas within the Province, with respect to gravel pit camping, does the minister believe that it is necessary to penalize all for the sake of a few?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this minister does not believe in penalizing anybody or this government as a matter of fact. What we are hoping to do, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Concerns have been expressed, Mr. Speaker, to our department and to a number of departments. We are evaluating the concerns and then in due course the government will decide whether or not we need a policy, we will also decide whether or not we need further regulation and, Mr. Speaker, no one wants to attack anybody or do anything else. We are just looking at a policy potentially, and it will be certainly discussed with the public.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker,

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, on a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My final supplementary is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

In 1995, we saw the 1995 Budget increase provincial park rates; we saw a number of parks, provincial parks, being privatized. Isn't government using the environmental issue to force people to utilize provincial and private parks and will she see that this smoke and mirror excuse is parked where it belongs, in the garbage.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to address that issue by saying that there are many concerns as the Minister of Environment and Labour pointed out about gravel pit parking.

One of the concerns I had this year actually, in addressing the issue of rates in the parks, was that, while we were raising rates in previous years for weekly and overnight campers that there were no day-use fee, and it was getting to be a very common practice that people were parking in gravel pits in the night time to camp but coming into the parks to use the facilities of the park during the day so that only overnight campers, weekly and monthly campers were paying for that privilege, so there are many issues to be addressed here.

MR. J. BYRNE: A back-door approach.

MS KELLY: It is certainly not a back-door approach and one that we have put considerable thought into. We want our parks to be available to everyone, we want people to be able to enjoy them.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS KELLY: That's right.

Just today for instance, two park facilities in Gros Morne, Lomond and Trout River, are being considerably upgraded to be state-of-the-art campers' parks in this Province. We wish that for all of our parks but if our people don't stay in the parks and stay in the gravel pits, what is the point of having wonderful parks developed for just tourists outside of the Province? We have parks and we truly believe in our parks system, and want people to use them and really respect the environment.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table two reports today: The Annual Report of the Labour Relations Board for 1995 and also, the Workers' Compensation Review Division and the Report.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I also would like to table two reports today. A report on Administration and Expenditures related to the Income Support Program of the Department of Social Services for the fiscal year, 1995-96; and a report on the Administration and Expenditures related to the Family and Rehabilitative Services of the Department of Social Services for the fiscal year 1995-96.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table the report of the Public Tender Act Exemptions for the months of April and May.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would like to table the Annual Report of the Commissioner of Members Interests for the year 1995-96.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response to a question that was posed some time ago by the hon. the Member for Conception Bay with respect to the number of permanent and other employees at the Health Care Corporation on a year-over-year basis since restructuring, I apologize as I did to him the other day for taking a little long to get the information, but I am now pleased to provide it to him today: April 1, 1995, there were 4,672 permanent employees with the Health Care Corporation of St. John's; April 1, 1996, one year later, there were 4,538 permanent employees, for a reduction of 134 permanent employees. In addition to that, there are approximately, on an ongoing basis, 2,000 casual employees working for the Health Care Corporation of St. John's, which makes up a labour force of approximately 6,672. And, for the information of the hon. member, most of the positions have come about as a result of attrition, retirements, and/or a consolidation of services.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I rise to present the following petition: To the hon. House of Assembly in legislative session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador, that:

WHEREAS the Food and Livestock Show contributed to heightening the awareness of the agricultural industry in our region; and

WHEREAS the Food and Livestock Show contributed directly to the increase of sales in the agricultural industry; and

WHEREAS the Food and Livestock Show contributed greatly to the local economy;

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that your hon. House may be pleased to request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to reinstate the Food and Livestock Show immediately for the fall of 1996, and as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, during the recent Budget as announced by the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board, there is a small section under the section of Forestry Resources and Agrifoods that shows an allocation dealing with agricultural shows and exhibitions. Now, the Member for Windsor - Springdale, being the former Minister of Agriculture, certainly would know the importance of the agricultural industry to this Province. It is a huge industry; it employs thousands of people each and every year. However, I think this year the Minister of Forestry and Agrifoods, in attempting to balance a budget, in attempting to achieve cost savings of 10 or 12 per cent, went a little far when he looked at the Food and Livestock Show for St. John's.

Mr. Speaker, it is a huge event, one that is looked forward to by the agricultural industry each year, one that is looked forward to by food producers in this Province each year, and one that contributes greatly not only to the success of the industry but to increased sales for the industry, and heightens the awareness of people within our community and within our Province about agriculture in our region, and the importance it plays - the vital role it plays - to the local economy.

Mr. Speaker, on page 156 dealing with agricultural shows and exhibitions in the Budget, when we look at what government really saved, or what they axed the Food and Livestock Show for, they did it, and what they achieved was a $44,000 saving. For the sake of $44,000 the Food and Livestock Show, which was a huge event, participated in by many people throughout the Province, not only stakeholders within the industry from dairy farmers to agricultural farmers, but the people who produce sods, what they did, in attempting just to save $44,000, I think they did not look at other alternatives. I am sure that the minister could have looked at the impact, and how they could have realized another $44,000 to revenue without eliminating the Food and Livestock show.

What could government have done? Maybe government could have looked at an overall fee per person coming in. Maybe government could have looked at upping the fees for booth space, but $44,000 is not a huge sum of money when you look at the type of show, how long it has been in existence, and the impact, the terrific impact, that it made to agriculture not only in our region but totally in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, we have heard other ministers in this House over the past several weeks stand and announce initiatives that we have called into question from this side. We have seen government decisions go - on the one hand made one day and changed the other, particularly, I say to the Minister of Agriculture, when it comes to the Department of Education.

Now, I think the minister has an opportunity, and I pledge to him today that if he is willing to commit, and if we can realize or find that $44,000 saving elsewhere, that I commit to help him try to find it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: He can laugh all he wants. I would commit - not within government. I'm talking about within the private sector, I say to the minister. Forty-four thousand dollars is not a lot of money to raise. I believe it can be raised. I believe that the food and livestock show can go ahead. I believe that the continuous contribution this show made to the agricultural industry in this Province, and in particular in this region, can be realized again this year if and only if the political will is there to address it. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to support the petition offered by my colleague for Kilbride, and to say to the government, in echoing his words, sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes these choices send out messages that I'm sure the minister wouldn't want to send to the people in this Province who pursue the business of agriculture. Some of whom are sitting in the public galleries this afternoon.

I endorse the petition. Forty-four thousand dollars may seem to be an insignificant amount of money to some people but I can assure you that that amount of money has put forward one of Atlantic Canada's first-rate agricultural shows in the great numbers of years now. It is regrettable that we are sending that kind of a message to the farmers of this region and in fact throughout the entire Province.

I endorse the petition. I've been associated for many years with many of the people who are in the agricultural business in this region, particularly some of my friends in the District of Kilbride, and the Goulds area. On their behalf and on behalf of the entire region I say to the minister that he should reconsider, that this shows government's commitment, and that the show has encouraged the agriculture in this area. Also it has been a great learning experience for many of the students who have gone to that particular show year after year. It lets them know a little bit about the industry. It has been a great marketing exposition.

I say to those people involved in tourism, people have come from all parts of the Province to visit that particular show, and all parts of Canada. We talk about bringing people in for the great show we are going to put on in 1997. Yet we won't spend $44,000 to continue a project that has been here in this region for a long time. It seems as if it is fine if you are coming from Bristol or New York or somewhere like that. We haven't any money to spend on our own right here in this Province. I ask the minister to reconsider. Maybe he can find the money to have this exposition put back where it should be which is in this region, and a chance to show all of us what is happening in the agriculture business and to show commitment by the government to those who pursue agricultural endeavours in our Province. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. Member for St. John's East I would like to welcome to the public galleries today the Mayor of Burin, Mr. Jerry Appleby and councillor Barry Keating, along with town manager Lou Bailey.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. the Government House Leader would like to speak to the petition presented by the Member for Kilbride.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, just very briefly to that petition. The Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods takes everything into consideration. I think the hon. gentleman has already heard me say in this House, and a good many times, that we would take a look at the - see if we could - we recognize that there is a value in this show, in this exposition. We have committed ourselves to trying to get some people in the private sector to do this. We may not even get it done this year, I don't know. But we will certainly be taking a look at it. In the spirit of cooperation, sweetness and light we will take everybody's advice into consideration.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand to present a petition to the House this afternoon with respect to an issue that was raised earlier in proceedings this afternoon, and that is on concern with respect to the discontinuation of a kindergarten program referred to as Literacy 2000.

I have just spoken with my colleague on this side of the House, the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, and together we have in our possession some names in excess of 4,000 representing parents, educators and members of the public at large who are concerned about the fact that this very important and preferred - and as I indicated earlier - a claimed program known as Literacy 2000 has just been arbitrarily withdrawn from the proposed curriculum for September 1996, with respect to the kindergarten classroom. This particular program has been scrutinized by primary school teachers and by the primary teachers council of the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association. It has received overwhelming support and preference by teachers who are in the classroom on a day to day basis and see the need, Mr. Speaker, for this type of program as part of the primary school curriculum. As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, jointly there are some 4,000 names and when you have a petition of this size dealing with a kindergarten program, that in and of itself says something. Obviously it is hoped, as part of bringing this petition, that members on the Opposite side view the importance of it and take seriously the spirit of what this petition is all about.

Last week, Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to attend the public meeting and there was some symbolism which I think is important to relate to the House at this time. At that public meeting which was attended by parents, teachers and school principals, who are obviously concerned about the fact that this program has been withdrawn, there were three chairs at the front of the gymnasium. One had what has been in existence for the past sixteen or seventeen years, namely a program which for all intents and purposes, Mr. Speaker, is ineffective. In fact, teachers have refused to use it and in fact, primary school teachers today, kindergarten teachers, they devised their own programming. They bring their own programs and materials to the school. That whole archaic program was on one chair.

The other chair, Mr. Speaker, was the very program that I am referring to, a program which has received overwhelming support by educators and parents in the Province. The third chair, Mr. Speaker, was what in fact this government provides for primary school teachers, particularly in the kindergarten area, as a means to help in curriculum development and in the providing of what is essential for young children at this time. Mr. Speaker, what in fact was located on that chair and situated on that chair was absolutely nothing and that is the state that we find ourselves in at the present time. This government does not provide an adequate curriculum for the kindergarten program and not only do they not provide it but they had the opportunity to in fact commence a program which has received widespread support throughout those in the know.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present this petition on behalf of those who are concerned about the curriculum which is being offered for young five year olds throughout our Province. I am pleased to join in part with my colleague to my right, who has also a number of petitions as well on the same topic. I can only endorse what these petitioners are saying and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to do so. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of the petition presented by the Member for St. John's East and to present an additional number of petitions including some 4,000 names of citizens of this Province who are concerned about the government's decision to stall implementation of the new kindergarten program.

The petitioners, Mr. Speaker, are concerned about the quality of education in this Province and are concerned literacy development being an important goal from which all of society derives benefits. They are concerned that the existing program, existing for kindergarten children in the Province, is outdated and antiquated in terms of philosophy and methodology. It states that the lack of action by the provincial government of Newfoundland and Labrador in implementing the recommendations of the Department of Educations kindergarten advisory committee will impact on the quality of education experience. What the petitioners want, Mr. Speaker, is to reverse the budgetary decision pertaining to the purchase of program resources for kindergarten students and re-instate the program recommendations of the Department of Education.

Mr. Speaker, this is an issue which strikes deep in the hearts of people in this Province who are very concerned about the quality of preparation that their children get in school. It is so important, Mr. Speaker, that, for example, in the community of Change Islands, where there are, I am told, some only 200 people above the age of eighteen, 197 people signed this petition, Mr. Speaker, indicating how concerned people are in this Province that their children and the children of their communities have access to the best quality education.

We have been told, and the minister himself admits that the program materials in use are up to twenty years old. I saw materials today that were published in 1977. Mr. Speaker, these materials are seriously, seriously outdated. One book that I was shown today was to teach the children about colours. Well if you open the book, Mr. Speaker, it was all in black and white, there were no colours in the book at all except for the cover on the outside.

Mr. Speaker, I am told that some of those books are so outdated and so useless for the modern curriculum, that some of them have not even been ordered in as many as ten years or more. It is fifteen years, the Member for Waterford Valley says, as a man with experience in Education he would know better than I, this is a serious defect in our education for young children in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and the government, by delaying the implementation of this, for how long, we don't know, is impairing the ability of our children to overcome the educational difficulties that we know our children face in this Province.

We are going through a great turmoil in this Province in the hopes of improving our education system with respect to educational reform and streamlining administrative costs, but, Mr. Speaker, here is a reform at the program level, at the school level, at the child level that is necessary and long overdue and government, instead of proceeding with this plan to put in place the new curriculum is delaying it and putting our children at risk.

Mr. Speaker, the petitioners are adamant in their concerns about what is going on in the education system; they want to see program change; they want to see reform but they don't want to see this government sitting on its hands when the needs of the children of this Province are at stake. I think it is time, Mr. Speaker, that the government listen to the concerns of the people when they are dealing with issues such as this, and go ahead and forge on implementing new programs so that our children will not suffer from the lack of decent programs that will allow them to develop the literary skills that they need to do well in school.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of residents all across this Province I say, Mr. Speaker, from just about every district. I think it is a total of something like 400 names and the petition reads:

We, the undersigned oppose the establishment of private fishing zones on the rivers of Newfoundland. It is our inherent right as Newfoundlanders to use these waters in a respectful manner -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I wonder if the hon. member could just let me interrupt him for a minute. I want to welcome to the galleries today members of the P.T.A. of the St. Agnes School in Pouch Cove, accompanied by the Principal of that school, Mr. Ed. Waite.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is not the right of a few (inaudible). Regarding the waters of Terra Nova, there is no part of that water system remote. Beware, Newfoundlanders, our rights are once again, about to be trampled on, this time by our worst enemies, ourselves. If it happens on this river, it happens all across Newfoundland. Newfoundlanders object.

The fee structure proposed by these associations or outfitters will effectively discourage the average Newfoundlander from enjoying one of its favourite pastimes and drive them from these waterways thus giving the outfitter complete control, something for which these associations have always lobbied for. If changes are coming to Newfoundland waters, the provincial government must be the sole proprietor, those who are duly elected by the vast majority, not by special interest groups.

Mr. Speaker, this is a petition that has been circulated by some people who are very concerned over the possibility that the federal government might be in the process of passing responsibility for Newfoundland rivers down to the Province, and the Province in turn, not having the financial resources to control these particular waterways might pass them along - the great fear is that it might pass them along to some special interest groups in particular areas.

Mr. Speaker, the area I think those people are particularly concerned about is the Freshwater Bay-Alexander Bay ecosystem area. It is, I suppose, the headwaters of the Terra Nova River which probably my colleague for Terra Nova knows much more about than I do. It is a situation where this particular interest group, the Freshwater-Alexander Bay Ecosystem Association put forward a form to be filled out, a questionnaire getting people's advice, and getting people's info and input into the possibility of their association being responsible for this inland waterway and also some particular waterways in that area.

They have also suggested the amount of money they may be able to charge those people who enjoy the act of going salmon fishing. Right now, from what I understand, in order to purchase a salmon license, a sportsman salmon license, it will cost you $20 a year, but those particular people are looking at charging, in addition to the $20 a year, a fee of $10 per person per day, and $15 per day for family. Naturally, anybody who enjoys the sport of salmon fishing for the most part will not be able to - a lot of them, especially our local residents, will not be able to afford to put out that $10 a day for themselves or $15 as it relates to a family if they enjoy that particular sport fishing.

Mr. Speaker, all too often we have seen the rights of Newfoundlanders taken away from them, things that we hold dear, being able to go out and jig a cod fish. We cannot do that anymore, and now it is a situation where the fear of those salmon fishermen is that they will not be able to afford to be able to go on their favourite salmon river and fish for salmon. Or, if they can afford it, Mr. Speaker, it will be a situation where they will probably have to go to somebody else to seek advice or to seek permission, if you would, to be able to go in the woods and go on that particular river in order to fish.

This is a grave concern to many of those individuals and what they are saying in this petition is, that we would like to be held responsible by the people we duly elected, Mr. Speaker, by the politicians of the day, by the government of the day. Those are the people who should control the inland rivers and the inland waterways, and should be responsible for the ecosystems and not special interest groups that are there today probably to be an association that are totally funded, I suppose, from their own revenue, be nonprofit, but tomorrow it will be a situation that they fear will become profitable, and the profits will be coming from the pockets of individual salmon fishermen.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly support those individuals that have put forward this petition. Their concerns are very real. It was a petition that was circulated right across Newfoundland and Labrador, and many of those people, even though their numbers may not be great, but the people each and every one of them, who have been asked to sign the petition, have taken part and expressed grave concerns.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: I ask the government, realizing that my time is up, in conclusion, I ask the government if they would support this particular group of salmon fishermen and leave the status quo as it exists today so that they might once again be able to go and fish in their favourite fishing holes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: I rise today in support of the petition presented by my hon. colleague. I think we have to be very careful as to what we do with our rivers and lakes around this Province in that we do not make our traditional salmon fishing industry for a lot of our fly fishermen around this Province just for a very select few.

I think that would certainly be a shame. There are many people, not only from around the Province but in my own district who every year like to go to their favourite rivers right from this end of the Island right into Labrador to salmon fish. I think, Mr. Speaker, it would be a crime if we don't do something about this now. It is great now to say: That will never happen. But I guess we have seen lots of things in this House that we said: No, these things are never going to happen. All of a sudden out of the blue they appear. This is probably just another one that will one of these days just automatically appear. Just bango it will be in here, and people will be wondering exactly where it came from.

I support this petition, Mr. Speaker, and hope that it never does come to this in this Province where we are going to have designated parts of rivers and lakes laid aside for a chosen few. Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Order Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

On motion, the following bills read a third time, ordered passed and their titles be as on the Order Paper:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Law To Give Effect To Certain Recommendations Of The Commissioner For Regulatory Reform" (Bill No. 1);

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Portability Of Pensions Act" (Bill No. 13);

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Parks Act" (Bill No. 7);

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act" (Bill No. 12);

A bill, "An Act To Establish The Memorial University Foundation" (Bill No. 16);

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Internal Economy Commission Act" (Bill No. 18); and,

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Packaging Material Act"( Bill No. 17).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: Number 8 (inaudible).

MR. TULK: We will wait until about 4:00 to do that one.

Bill No. 11, Order No. 10, Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act."

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act". (Bill No. 11)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Public Accountancy Act established a licensing board that consisted of seven members appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. Five of those members were members of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Newfoundland. The Chairman is a member of the Law Society and the other member is a public accountant who is not a chartered accountant, thus the Institute of Chartered Accountants effectively controls that board. There are three other professional accounting groups operating in the Province, each with its own active incorporation and these are the Certified General Accountants and the Certified Management Accountants.

Mr. Speaker, in 1994 a Select Committee of the House of Assembly was struck to deal with the review of this particular act. Public hearings were held in February 1994, in which the Select Committee received presentations from the Association of Chartered Accountants, Certified General Accountants and Certified Management Accountants. The witnesses which were represented were thirty-six and these were from these three accounting groups.

The Select Committee completed its report on June 9, 1994, and that report indicated that the committee was not persuaded that the CAs are the only accounting professionals who are capable of engaging in public accounting. The CGAs and the CMAs should be permitted to apply for licenses, that the licensing of qualified CGAs and CMAs as public accountants would enhance competition without compromising the public interest provided the appropriate legislative controls were in place. Mr. Speaker, in British Columbia only CAs and CGAs may practice public accountancy but in Alberta, New Brunswick, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, the Yukon and the North West Territories, CAs, CGAs and CMAs practice public accountancy.

Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 11 basically adopts the recommendations of the Select Committee indicating that the board would be changed and would have representation from the CAs, CGAs, CMAs as well as public representation and the board would set the standards required to be met by members of the three accounting associations. The board will then license members meeting those standards. Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 11 does not attempt to establish these standards rather it is left up to the board to do so. Also the bill deals specifically with licensing. There may be other areas which should be addressed such as the definition of public accountants, structure and forms of public accounting firms, professional liability insurance, levying of fines, et cetera. When the new board is in place it should review all of these matters, adopt policies where it has the authority to do so and to make recommendations to government for legislative changes where considered necessary.

Mr. Speaker, the amendments to Bill No. 11 would change the composition of the Public Accountancy Board. Terminating effective control of that board by the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland and it creates further standards which if met, would permit individuals from the accounting designations of Chartered Accountants, Certified General Accountants and Certified Management accountants to be licensed to practice public accountancy.

Mr. Speaker, subsection 3(2) would be repealed and the board would consist of seven members appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. Of those seven members:

"(a) one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland; (b) one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Certified General Accountants Association; (c) one member shall be nominated and shall be a member of the Society of Management Accountants of Newfoundland; and (d) there shall be 4 other members who are not affiliated with a professional accounting association, including (i) one member from the banking community who is a user of audited financial statements, (ii) one member of the business community who is a user of audited financial statements, (iii) one member of the business academic community, and (iv) a chairperson who shall be a member for the Law Society of Newfoundland and who has completed at least 8 years in practice as a member."

It is further amended in section 3 to indicate that: "6. Four members shall constitute a quorum of the board." It is further amended in section 5 to indicate that:

"(6) Nothing in the section shall diminish or enlarge the powers of the administrative bodies of the professional accounting designations of Chartered Accountants, Certified General Accountants, and Certified Management Accountants to discipline in respect of its own members."

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to have a few comments at the second reading here. Any further detail and comments I will do in Committee

Overall, I guess certainly my concern is to ensure that we do have adequate standards to protect the public interest when we have audits done here in this Province. Whether it is done by chartered accountants, CMAs or CGAs, it needs to be ensured that the mechanisms are in place that people who are entrusted with this position that is a very responsible position, one that is going to ensure that the public interest is served. There has to be every indication that is going to be done.

There was a select committee - I think it was supposed to be Bill No. 42. I don't think it ever got to draft form. I don't recollect at the time. Maybe the minister -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, the minister might be able to indicate this. I think it was tabled in first reading, but it never did come in draft form in second reading as Bill No. 42, if I recall.

It went to Committee and the Committee did recommend - and I would like to hear afterwards when the minister comments too, if it is addressed here in those particular recommendations - that legislation be introduced to admit to the practice of public accounting, in addition to members of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, CGAs and CMAs, basically. It indicated: Those that are found qualified by their respective bodies and approved by a joint standards directorate.

It went on to say: That directorate should comprise one member appointed by each of these three accounting bodies, between five and seven other members appointed by the minister on a pro rated basis from each of the organizations, and three members of the public, also appointed by the minister. I'm not sure - maybe the minister when he has an opportunity to respond - if that recommendation is complied with on the recommendation of the committee that looked at that here, the select committee on the practice of public accountancy that reported on June 9 1994.

Certainly I can say that my concern is getting appropriate standards to have a board in place to go in to ensure that the appropriate standards are there, and the appropriate training to reflect standards. Because the final result is not who does it, it is that the public interest is going to be protected. Not whether large corporations - banks and numerous institutions have their own mechanisms by which to be able to ensure that they get what they need. The average person on the street may not have access to a particular resource, has to ensure that they are protected and that they are going to be able to know - and that is the key - when they get an audit - I would want to know that I get what I ask for and that there is a consistency and a standard, and I think it is incumbent certainly upon government to ensure that there are sufficient standards established, and mechanisms in place, to be fully certain that is going to happen.

We will have a further opportunity, I am sure, at committee stage of the bill to look at any other specifics there, and I would certainly be interested in hearing what the minister has to say with reference to the recommendations of the select committee, and whether they are addressed here, if there are any variations from that, or what the general intent and thrust, because many times in legislation we know, and we have seen it before - we have seen Term 17; I don't have to tell anybody about what Term 17 states; everybody has a copy of that - and what happens after the specifics get down, and we have seen legislation can be interpreted in different ways, and different regulations can be enacted after the legislation, of course, to be able to deal with those specific things. So we need to know the thrust of where government is going, what their intentions are, rather than going ahead blindly without having any specifics because, like most legislation, it has the generalities but does not have all the specifics that are dealt with by regulations within a Cabinet that we never see here in the House of Assembly.

We know all too well, if you look at Bill 1, how many regulations and so on government has - there are eighty-five clauses here in Bill 1 just to amend the law to give effect to certain recommendations of the Commissioner for Regulatory Reform, and we know that we have been regulated to death in instances, but there are purposes served by regulations, and regulations that don't serve a purpose should be eliminated, are obsolete, duplication in the system, but the regulations are there for purposes, to ensure the best interests of all people in the Province, and our concern, as legislators here, is to ensure that the public interest is served, not any specific interest, whether it is CGAs, CMAs, or the Institute of Chartered Accountants - public protection - and we have an obligation to ensure that is going to get done, and that is incumbent upon the minister to ensure that does happen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to speak on this bill at second reading, although I have to confess I am surprised that it is being called today, because I had been assured, and in turn had assured others who had contacted me, that the bill was not going to be called this session. I received a number of interventions and submissions from people interested in this bill, people who had seen the bill and were surprised at some of the contents it had representations to make. As I say, I am surprised we are seeing it now because I had been informed that the matter was not going to be dealt with, and in turn informed -

AN HON. MEMBER: Who told you that?

MR. HARRIS: I was informed by the Government House Leader that the matter was not going to be dealt with, and I, in turn, informed the people who had made representations to me that the matter was not going to be dealt with, and there was going to be plenty of time for them to -

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader on a point of order.

MR. TULK: The hon. gentleman is standing out there saying that I advised him that we were not going to deal with this bill. I did no such... nonsense.

MR. SPEAKER: I think we have a disagreement between two hon. members.

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On a number of occasions I was informed of that, and passed that information on to people who had made representations to me, so I am surprised to have to speak to it now but I am quite prepared to do so at second reading, and the principle of the bill I have no difficulty with. I, in fact, have from the beginning of this issue being brought forward, had representations made by people interested in the issue and were concerned that the Public Accountancy Act established only a single standard for public accountancy, and that only CAs were being able to be given licences under the Public Accountancy Act. In fact, they were automatically being given licences, and there was provision for non-CAs to get licences but only if they complied with standards that were set by the Institute of Chartered Accountants.

What is interesting is that since 1967 when those who were engaged in public accountancy were given grandfather status, no other person other than a CA has been granted the right to practice public accountancy under the Public Accountancy Act, so this certainly bespeaks of a de facto if not legally a monopoly for Chartered Accountants to practice public accountancy in the Province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we have, you know, gone through a process that is designed to open up the public accountancy to practice from other accountancy designations and I think that is a very good thing. The representations that were made to me by the CGA Association, and I had a number of them, Mr. Speaker, were to the effect that they did not believe that any person with a CGA designation ought to have an automatic licence as a public accountant, any more than a CA should have an automatic licence of a public accountant but that there should be a standard that apply to all, and that if there were a standard that was there, people who had a CGA designation or a CNA designation, if they met that designation then they would be given an opportunity to have a licence to practice public accountancy.

The issue, as the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, is the protection of the public and of those third parties who rely on the audit statements from accountants stating that the financial statements that are presented meet with accepted standards to the accounting profession, and that these are relied on by third parties, by government, by banks, by investors, not only investors within the Province but investors from outside the Province, in establishing a basis for a decision that might be made whether to loan money to a corporation or to an entity or to invest money in an entity; and there has to be an established standard that gives a recognition to the value of an opinion letter issued by an accountant in the circumstances.

Now, Mr. Speaker, since the legislation has been published, there have been, some might say, predictable reactions from the CAs, the CAs are not very pleased with the legislation. I have had a number of conversations, as perhaps other hon. members have as well; they have been under the impression that before the legislation was actually debated in the House, they would have an opportunity to consult on the wording of the legislation and they advised me, that has not happened. They asked me, Mr. Speaker, if I would make representations and they wanted to make representations to me concerning the issues that they see in the legislation and they feel that despite the fact - and I made it very clear to them - that if what they are concerned about is the monopoly position that the CAs have had, then they will have no support from me. But there were a number of issues that they raised in their representations with respect to whether or not there will be a single standard or whether there will be three or more standards for public accountancy in the Province.

It is not apparent from the legislation, Mr. Speaker, but one of the concerns that was raised was: Is it possible that this board could automatically give CAs, CGAs or CMAs a licence, the same way as the CAs were given, automatically, a licence in the past? It is not clear from the legislation, but that, presumably is one outcome. It is not an outcome that would be desired by the CAs, and I don't think it is in the public interest that there be two or three or four more standards; so that is open for debate and, there is not even anything in the legislation that requires - I think the minister, in introducing the bill, indicated the hope that the new board would get together and see what regulations they can make within their powers with respect to the setting of standards.

I don't see any power for them actually to do that in the legislation. Section 11 of the current Public Accountancy Act is repealed and that is the legislation that establishes the standard and establishes the power of the board to set a standard to determine whether or not a licence should be granted. So I have some difficulty with the legislation in that regard. Presumably, there will be time to consider these issues in Committee but there does not seem to be any empowering provisions in the bill that would allow, or require, indeed, the new Public Accountancy Board to establish the standards that would apply to all people applying for licenses.

Mr. Speaker, I see that as a weakness in the Act and something that has been brought to my attention by people interested in the Act. I know that the Act is the culmination of a process that took place over a lengthy period of time, but I would have hoped that in these circumstances it would not be attempted to be rushed through.

MR. TULK: It is not being rushed through.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I guess we are going through second reading today and third reading some other time. If the member has a problem with that, I am only telling him what he told me and what I told people in return.

MR. TULK: I did not tell (inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, it doesn't seem we can have a sensible debate here without intervention, so I ask the Speaker if he could give me some protection here.

Mr. Speaker, the legislation before the House in principle is very good in that it at least provides for the possibility of broadening the scope of public accountancy rules and allows more people to participate in public accountancy, and I support the principle contained in the bill. I understand there are some difficulties that have been raised by one of the accountancy groups with respect to whether or not there is power of the board to set a single standard that would apply to all groups. They have also raised other concerns which the minister has referred to, and that is whether or not, for example, there ought to be a requirement that all those given a license to practice public accountancy have a requirement of being insured. I understand that is the case with some of the groups but not all of them.

The setting of conditions of that nature it is not clear that the board has that power or that obligation. Other issues have been raised as well, and I think one may be peripheral to this whole issue of public accountancy licensing, but whether or not firms can incorporate, or the organization of firms, I think that is an issue that may be of interest to all of the accountancy groups, but as far as this legislation goes, I don't think it is directly affected by it.

I do say that I support the principle in the bill and have supported the efforts of groups other than the CAs to have access to licensure under the public accountancy rules. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the difficulties in legislation as it reads now can be overcome and that hon. members would at least have an opportunity to hear the specific concerns that have been raised about those issues before passing on the legislation.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to speak very briefly at this time with respect to "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act." It largely endorses what has been stated by the leader of our party and many of the comments as indicated by the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi VIdi. It has to do with the issue of standards, and I think that is primarily the area of concern by professionals who have spoken with me and who have voiced their objection to Bill No. 11 dealing with the incorporation of basically CGAs, CMAs, and CAs acting in a consolidated fashion throughout the Province.

One suggestion that comes to mind, and could address some of the concerns that have been raised is, rather than referring to the board as simply a licensing board, it could be referred to as a license board or a board of standardization, and that incorporates many of the concerns which have been expressed largely by Chartered Accountants here in the Province. Because they see this legislation, Mr. Speaker, as an Act which does not allow for appropriate standards being applied to ensure that the public interest is being protected.

Mr. Speaker, the issue of standards amongst various professionals is -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - is essentially the issue that I wish to raise during second reading. And, as indicated, perhaps by referring to the licencing board as a board other than just licencing, as a body which could, in fact, apply certain standards to the profession, may be a way to address the issues which have been raised.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand to make some comments dealing with Bill No. 11, An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act.

As a member of the Committee that was struck that looked at the notion of public accounting for the Province - and the mandate that it was given is clear. I would like to just say for the record, this is an issue that has received significant representations from those people who are Chartered Accountants and those people who are Certified General Accountants. It is an issue that has been debated in this Legislature for some time, albeit a new issue to the new government. But it was a significant issue, and the decisions -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. the Government House Leader and the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi that right now their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the decorum of this House. I have recognized the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I sat silently and listened to the comments made by the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, and I expect the same courtesy from all members, I guess.

In terms of this piece of legislation, this has been studied, there have been significant representations made to the Select Committee dealing with this issue. It is an issue that comes down, in my opinion, as a member of the Committee that submitted its recommendations and findings - and I may add that the report of the Select Committee on the Practice of Public Accounting, June 9 1994, which was submitted to this House, was a unanimous report. There was no minority report emanating from the Committee.

It was clear from our point of view as a Committee, in beginning our work, and going through the mountains of documents, I can say honestly, that were provided to all Committee members, and the some forty witnesses who appeared before our Committee, that changes need to take place.

The Act that deals with the practice of public accounting was first instituted in 1966. Since that time, very few changes have been made. The practice of public accounting was exclusive to one profession, Chartered Accountants. The real issue, the real question for the Committee, was the notion of standards for public accounting. Because, after all, it is the public that we are here to protect, it is the practice of public accounting that we have to administer from a legislative point of view, and whether it is a CGA, CMA or CA is not necessarily the question. The question is: What are the standards that this Legislature expects, what are the standards that we wish to maintain, and what are the standards that we wish to impose, or the process by which we wish to impose them?

During the hearings I have to say it was clear that animosity on this issue was evident. It was far less than professional, in my opinion, the animosity that was clearly demonstrated in the cases presented by CAs and by CGAs. The Committee tried to look at the issue of public accounting. We heard many stories. One in particular comes to mind of a CGA who had a B.Comm., did the CGA practice, basically eight years of post-secondary education, I believe all of the qualifications in terms of standards, owns a large accounting firm in this Province, and has two or three CAs, I believe - some other members may be able to assist me, I don't recall directly, but I do recall the specific incident - and was not allowed to practice public accounting. On the other hand, on the other side of the coin, we heard of real-life situations where people who had the CA designation, who had never practised public accounting within their field, fifteen to twenty years, had come out of service, I think in one case it was with the provincial government or federal government, I am not sure which, but it was with the public service at either the provincial or federal level, and who immediately went out then and received the designation to go and practice public accounting. Now, intrinsic in that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I am just drawing two examples that show a discrepancy, and that I think demonstrate a need for reform.

The need clearly is that we need a set of standards for public accounting that are rigorous, that are intense, and that are of the highest quality, and that no matter if a CMA, a CGA or a CA, whatever the designation, if those individuals in those categories, or in those professions, or in any other profession for that matter, can write and meet that standard, pass the litmus test, then that individual should be allowed to go ahead and practice public accounting.

The recommendations of the committee were clear and succinct, and as a committee member I have to say that, in looking at the bill before us, the board that is recommended seems to be exactly what the committee recommended. Let me say it for the record.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Your committee therefore recommends... because it is a very important issue. I would say personally I met with close to forty people in my office outside of the committee hearings. Of late I have had representations, correspondence, beginning again because the legislation was forthcoming, so it is important, I think, for all hon. members who wish to speak to this issue, and in particular myself as the Member for Kilbride, because I sat on the select committee dealing with this issue, that the committee's recommendations were clear - legislation be introduced to admit to the practice of public accounting, in addition to members of the Institute of Chartered Accountants and Registered Public Accountants, members of the Certified General Accountants Association and the Society of Management Accountants found qualified by their respective bodies on the one hand and approved by a joint standards directorate.

There are two hoops that must be passed for an individual before - this was the committee's recommendation - that one, their own professional designation must qualify that person for themselves to say they are, by their experience, by their educational background, and by their academics overall, they must, unto themselves, their own bodies must qualify them, and then and only then, once their own society qualifies them they must go to the joint standards directorate, as was recommended by the committee, for another level to be approved, to ensure that the highest standard is met, to ensure that public accounting and the standard that we expect in this House, this Legislature, and the standard that the public must have, is also met.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)).

MR. E. BYRNE: One second, I say to the Government House Leader.

The second recommendation was that the directorate comprise one member - the committee was clear on its recommendations.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: I will grant the hon. members leave if they wish to debate.

The second recommendation from the committee was that the directorate be comprised of one member appointed by each of the accounting bodies, between five and seven other members. That is what this bill says here, if I am not mistaken, "(a) one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland; (b) one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Certified General Accountants Association; (c) one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Society of Management Accountants of Newfoundland." That is exactly what the committee recommended, Mr. Speaker, exactly.

Another one, that there will be - from those three there would be between five and seven other members and I believe the legislation is fairly clear, that there be four other members. So there is a minor change and when we get to committee it may be my intention to keep it in line with what the committee recommended. There shall be four other members, maybe five - one person, five or seven it says. I am not sure but it is a question I have when we get into the committee debate.

Another recommendation, Mr. Speaker, that the director be empowered to conduct or oversee practice reviews to determine whether standards are being met. We put within the directors hands the ability to set standards, the ability to ensure there is a highest quality of standard. That has been put into place by the professional bodies that are involved in accounting. That each body be required to carry out practice inspection of its members - fair enough - that persons engaged in the practice of public accounting be required to carry liability insurance, that provision be made for disciplinary procedures for professional misconduct and for penalties for violation of the statute including practising without a license and that each body be empowered to license its own members, subject to the approval of the standards director.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we felt, as a committee, we deliberated long and hard on this issue. We had many, many conversations amongst ourselves, many meetings but we felt ultimately that there was time for a change. We felt strongly enough, based upon the evidence put forward to us, that there were other designations within the Province right now and other individuals holding those designations within the Province right now who could meet the standards, who could practice public accounting in the public interest. What we have attempted to do or what the select committee attempted to do is to provide an opportunity for those people who; (1) are qualified by their own professional organization and (2) who meet the standard by a standards directorate that they can in fact practice public accounting. Those were the recommendations of the committee -

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the hon. gentleman permit a question at this point (inaudible)?

MR. E. BYRNE: Sure.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Why did the committee recommend five people be - from other than one or two professionals, does he recall that?

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

MR. TULK: You recommended five people as opposed to four?

MR. E. BYRNE: As soon as I get to the recommendation, I can answer that in a second.

MR. TULK: Can you tell me why?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Just let me get to it here, we said between five and seven other members appointed by the minister on a pro rated basis from each of the organizations and three members of the public also appointed by the minister. So there is a change here - there is no doubt there is a change in the bill. I don't know why you have not done that but when we get to committee stage -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: One second, I wanted to get to that. I can get back to that in a moment because it is the only change from this to this and that is the question I want to get to in a moment.

What we attempted to do, if I can get back to what I was saying, was to ensure that there were standards in place, that those who met the standards would be able to practice public accounting. Mr. Speaker, all of that or almost all of that is contained within Bill No. 11. There is a change and there is a change that I am concerned about and it deals with the appointment of the board. While this part of the debate, Mr. Speaker, on second reading is to deal with generally the applications of the bill, when we get into - I guess for the information of people in the gallery - committee stage of the bill is when we debate section by section of the bill and we have an opportunity here to recommend changes and to make amendments to the bill as we see fit and then to be put before the House for a vote.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Well I understand that but we cannot get to committee today without consent of all members.

The only difference, Mr. Speaker, in this piece of legislation as I see it as a committee member and who sat on and worked for a significant number of hours on this document in dealing with this issue is that; (1) it says that there shall be four other members who are not affiliated with a professional accounting association including one member from a banking community, one member of a business community who is a user of audited financial statements, one member of the business academic community and a chairperson who shall be a member of the Law Society of Newfoundland and Labrador. I am not completely clear as to why that change in that section was instituted, and it deviates, to a great degree, I would suggest to the minister, from the recommendations of the committee in terms of the composition of the board, what the committee recommended and actually what is here.

AN HON. MEMBER: You will find out (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, I would like to find out, and when we get to Committee stage - I will put the minister on notice now and say that there may be amendments suggested to the composition that would clearly reflect what the Select Committee recommended on the practice of public accounting, to ensure that what we recommended, in its entirety, is also contained within Bill 11, in its entirety.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to make a couple of brief comments.

I have heard this afternoon that maybe somebody is trying to ram something through or maybe somebody is trying to push something through.

I worked with some accounting people some years ago, Mr. Speaker, and I guess I go back, probably into the Peckford days, when, a certain designated group were then making submissions to government to have this particular Act changed. I kind of get the impression from my House Leader here, that this bill may not pass this afternoon. If it doesn't, Mr. Speaker, I think it is a shame. I think it is time that we moved forward in this particular area and that this bill, this afternoon gets passed, that this legislation gets done.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) fault.

MR. FRENCH: Well, I don't know. Hopefully, it is nobody's fault. We have debated this, by the way, in our own caucus, and I think the time has come, Mr. Speaker, for this particular bill to be passed once and for all. I think it is time it was done and it should be done today so that the legislation can be enacted, so that the committee can be put in place. We are all for checks and balances, I don't need to go into that, three of my hon. colleagues have already covered that, and I think it is time that this bill gets passed.

It is a bill that has been studied to death and has been on the go for more years than anybody probably cares to remember, so I think today, Mr. Speaker, we should do it and finally get it over with. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now, he closes the debate.

The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a few comments in closing the debate.

We have had many representations from the CAs in the last little while, but most of the things that they have been asking will not be changed by amending this piece of legislation. Most of the concerns that they have will be dealt with by the board once the board is put in place.

I would say to the hon. House that a number of CAs have made representation to us indicating that they have not had a chance publicly to debate these changes. I have to say to the House that we have had a Select Committee hold public hearings, the CAs met, following that with the P and P Committee, they made representation to the Minister of Justice of the day and they have also met on a number of occasions with us just recently, indicating their concerns over the amendments to the bill. But I would say, Mr. Speaker, that the intent of the bill is not to diminish standards by any stretch of the imagination, by any means.

The intent of the bill is to change the make-up of the licencing board so that other jurisdictions such as CGAs and CMAs can be licensed as public accountants. So I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I move second reading of Bill No. 11.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act", (Bill No. 11) read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

CHAIR (Penney): Order, please!

Bill No. 11, An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act.

CHAIR: Shall clause 4 carry?

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, on a point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: If I may ask leave of all members, I know I just spoke to the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: We moved along while I was just speaking about the bill behind so I never had a chance to get up and make a few comments on clause 2.

With respect to the composition of the board, in my opening comments dealing with clause 2, dealing with the composition - and we highlighted the discrepancy between what is in the bill and what the Committee recommended. I just want to be clear for everyone's information here that what the Select Committee recommended was this: that a directorate be comprised of one member appointed by each of the accounting bodies - that is there; between five and seven other members appointed by the minister on a prorated basis from each of the organizations, which would be from the three bodies - the discretion would be left to the minister on how many, but between five and seven; and then, three members of the public, also appointed by the minister.

I don't know if the Government House Leader or the minister would like to make a comment on that, because I, personally, see it as a significant change.

AN HON. MEMBER: You do?

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes I do, in terms of what the Committee recommended and the logic behind the Committee's recommendation. Because all that is in the bill, it allows just for one member of each of the organizations to sit on a seven-member board. What it says here in the Committee's findings was that the Committee made allowance for one member from each of the CAs, CGAs and CMAs, and then said that there would be between five and seven other members from those organizations. CAs, for example, may have three members, CGAs may have two members on the board. But it made allowance for more than just three representatives and, what was most important to the Committee, allowed the standards that would be set by the standards directorate to be fully within the voting control of the licencing bodies: CAs, CGAs and CMAs.

If we move in this direction, what we are doing is taking the voting control away from the professional bodies and putting it into the hands of four other members of the board who really are not in the practice of public accounting, who may be users of it on the one hand, but who are not into, or would not have the detailed knowledge of the rigorous standards that the Committee wanted to achieve. They would not have it. That was the allowance. That is why we recommended the composition of the board to be the way it was. It is a significant change, I say.

If it is appropriate here, I would like to move an amendment to clause 2 that would achieve just that, that would achieve what the Select Committee on Public Accountancy recommended. Because it is very important. The composition of that board was paramount, and I do not see just this clause of the legislation achieving that. It takes the control of professional standards away from professional associations where we wanted them to be and puts them ultimately in the hands of a majority on the board of four persons who really have no intimate knowledge of public accountancy.

Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to move an amendment to Clause 2 that would read, beginning subsection 3(2): the board shall consist of -if I can just take a moment - `one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland.' That is fair enough. `one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Certified General Accountants Association,' That is fair enough. `one member shall be nominated by and shall be a member of the Society of Management Accountants of Newfoundland and Labrador.' That is fair enough. But then, and we will strike out everything thereafter, from Section (d), (i) through (iv) and substitute it with, `and that between five and seven other members be appointed by the minister on a prorated basis from each of the organizations, and three members of the public also appointed by the minister.'

That is an amendment I am prepared to move and that would bring this piece of legislation and this clause in line with what the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me see. We have about eleven, depending, because the minister has discretion in either appointing five or seven, nine or eleven, one or the other, so it would be ministerial discretion given by the Select Committee.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, given the fact that seems to be in line - of course, if we want to make another amendment later we can always do it, but given the fact that seems to in line with the consultations, the committee and so on, we have no objection to moving that amendment, to passing it.

I am sure the hon. gentleman will (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Fair enough.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Not to belabour the point, but just to say that I appreciate moving that amendment because it is paramount to what the Select Committee tried to determine, and put the control of what the standards would be into the hands of the professional bodies that would be practising public accountancy.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to make a few remarks on Clause 2 of the bill now under debate and the amendment proposed by the Member for Kilbride. The principle of the amendment I have no difficulty with. I think if we are dealing with the accountancy standards, the people who know most about what those standards are, are the people who are in the profession. One of the principle concerns that anybody in this House would have with respect to this legislation ought to be how are the public to be protected?

The amendment seems to be consistent altogether with what the report of the Select Committee says, but I think the four other members here - I guess what the amendment does not say is it takes away all the particulars of that. So, I say to the Member for Kilbride, I guess you are not proposing that one be as particular designation of the banking community or one from any other community. Are they going to be out altogether? Are you suggesting that there be no one other than accountants on the board? Is that the idea?

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

No, I am not suggesting that. What the clause says right now, it only allows for three, one CA, one CGA, and one CMA. What I am asking for is to do what the Select Committee recommended, that there be three automatic, then either five or seven, depending on the discretion of the minister, to be appointed from those organizations, and then, three members of the public also appointed by the minister, outside of the designation, so three members of the public outside. It is pretty explicit in the recommendations which I am wording here now for the amendment for the Clerk. But it would be from the public and not from those designations.

MR. HARRIS: The result, then, would be that the accountancy group, shall we say, have a majority of that directorate, or the board, and they can decide the standards. I think that is certainly important, and I know, the member, in making his intervention on the bill, has quoted sections of the report which require - which (inaudible) in the legislation - that people practising public accountancy have insurance. Perhaps the minister can deal with this issue because if we are talking about a requirement that there be insurance for people practising public accountancy, that seems to be absent from this legislation. There doesn't appear to be any requirement that there be insurance in place.

I am looking at Section 10 of the Act and I note we haven't gotten to Clause 4 of the bill yet. Clause 11, which sets a standard under the current Act as the Chartered Accountant standard, is being repealed, and what the board is then left with is Section 10 of the current Act which states as follows: That a person who applies to the board and pays the prescribed fees is entitled to be licensed as a Public Accountant, where the board is satisfied that he or she is a resident of Canada, possesses the educational, personal and moral qualifications that the board requires and has passed the examination that the board recognizes or prescribes. It certainly does not seem to allow the board to set any other conditions upon people who desire to have a license to practice public accountancy.

That seems to me, Mr. Chairman, to be a defect in the legislation. If the legislation is intended to mirror what has been recommended by the Select Committee, it seems that there ought to be as well, when we get to the repeal of Section 4 of the Act, an amendment to Section 10 to allow the board to prescribe conditions on those obtaining a license; such as the recommendation of the Select Committee prescribes, that there be a requirement of insurance.

I know, the minister, in introducing the bill at second reading, indicated that perhaps the board could make such rules as are within their power. It seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that under the legislation as it would be amended by this bill, there would not be any power in the licensing board to set conditions such as the requirement of there being insurance in place in order to protect the public.

I think that the amendment is desirable from the point of view of having the accountancy control of the standard, but the legislation is defective in not giving the board the power to also set conditions as well as those required in the current Section 10 of the Act, which require the board to allow the board to establish educational requirements, and also the passing of examinations; but not any other conditions, such as perhaps meeting a particular standard in one designation or having a period of apprenticeship for articles as they have in some professions or meeting some other experiential guidelines in order to receive a license. I think that putting the standard in the hands of the professionals themselves is appropriate and I would support the amendment, but I would look for another amendment later on to make sure that the board has the power to establish standards.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The House is familiar with the proposed amendment to Clause (2). Are you ready for the vote?

On motion, amendment carried.

On motion, Clause (2) as amended, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to speak to -

CHAIR: Debating Clause 4?

MR. HARRIS: Clause 4, Mr. Chairman.

I think this is an appropriate place to deal with the issue I just spoke about. Section 11 of the Act is repealed and Section 11 is the section that allows the board to licence people other than CAs. That is being repealed. As I just mentioned, by repealing that Act it doesn't allow the board to establish any other conditions other than those contained in Section 10.

The old Section 11 is the one that gives exclusive right to the CAs - or not the exclusive right, but gives the CAs the automatic right, and that is being repealed, which is appropriate. I would ask that Clause 4 in addition to Section 11 state that Section 11 of the Act is repealed - add to that that Section 11 of the Act is repealed, and substituted by the following: That in addition to the powers of the board set forth in Section 10, the board shall have the power to establish conditions or requirements for applicants who apply for a licence under this Act.

Do you have that, Mr. Chairman? That Section 11 of the Act be repealed and substituted by the following: That in addition to the powers set forth in Section 10, the board shall have the power to set conditions on applicants who seek a licence under the Act.

The purpose of the amendment is in keeping with the concerns raised by the minister in introducing the bill, and the issues raised by the Member for Kilbride in discussing the issue of the Committee's recommendation that all those practising public accountants be required to have insurance. That isn't in the Act, it isn't in the amendment that we have before us, and there is no provision in the existing Act which gives the board the power to set conditions for applicants.

Section 10 of the Act now reads as follows: That a person who applies to the board and pays the prescribed fees is entitled to be a licensed public accountant where the board is satisfied that he or she is a resident of Canada, possesses the educational, personal or moral qualifications the board requires, and has passed the examination that the board recognizes or prescribes.

That seems to limit the powers of the board to only deal with issues as to whether or not they meet certain moral or educational standards or pass examinations, but does not give the board the power to set any other conditions, such as, for example, as the Select Committee had recommended, to require that licensees have insurance. That, Mr. Chairman, is the purpose of the amendment and I urge its acceptance by hon. members.

CHAIR: If it meets with the approval of the House, we will get to Clauses 3 and 4 in a moment. Can we call Clause 5?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Is Clause 3 carried?

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: No. It is the understanding of the Chair that Clause 3 would have to be amended because of the quorum.

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, I think we should repeal Clause 3, take it out altogether. I am not sure that we even need it. Because under the interpretation Act it clearly sets out: that where a board, commission or other body in this section called a board - which would apply to this - is constituted under an Act, a majority of the board is a quorum, and the chairperson of the board has an equal vote with the other members. It is already implicit in law that governs us and governs boards set out by government what a majority is, so we don't need that. So I move that we delete Clause 3, Mr. Chairman.

On motion, amendment carried.

On motion, Clause 3 as amended by deletion, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, on a point of order.

MR. HARRIS: Some of the members were asking for a copy of the amendment that was proposed. Has the amendment been further discussed or voted on?

AN HON. MEMBER: It was passed.

MR. HARRIS: It was passed, was it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Was the amendment passed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

CHAIR: Yes.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act." (Bill No. 11)

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise, report substantial progress, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report that Bill No. 11, "An Act to Amend The Public Accountancy Act", has passed with amendment, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted.

Amendment to Bill No. 11 read a first and second time, bill ordered read a third time presently by leave.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act". (Bill No. 11)

On motion, Bill No 11 read a third time, ordered passed, and its title be as on the Order Paper.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, it is 4:30 p.m. and I think we should take a recess for eight or nine minutes, but before we do that it is with some - I cannot say it is with pleasure that I rise to do what I am going to do now but I do want to congratulate and extend best wishes on behalf of the government to Mr. John, or as he is otherwise known, Jack Oates, who is presently the audio equipment director for us here. I wonder if he could be allowed to stand up and take a bow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: Mr. Oates was born in Bay Roberts and started his career with Atlantic Films and Electronics Limited where he learned the skills needed to operate and maintain sound and recording equipment. Before joining the audio/visual division of the Department of Education, 1961, he was involved with the planning and technical organization for the sound and recording system, the newly constructed House of Assembly Chamber on the ninth and tenth floors of the tower. When that Chamber opened Mr. Oates was seconded from the Department of Education on a sessional basis to work as audio systems operator in the House of Assembly. Over the years Jack Oates alone has operated and maintained the sound and recording systems in the House, committees of the House and the Hansard office both upstairs in the old Chamber and in this Chamber.

In 1989 Mr. Oates was appointed to his current full time position with the House of Assembly. At the end of this month Mr. Oates will retire from the public service having spent thirty-five years serving this institution. Interestingly, Mr. Oates has served under every Premier since Confederation, as well as every Speaker, with the exception I understand of Speaker Sparkes and every clerk of the House, with the exception of Mr. Justice Cummings.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government of the Province and members, Mr. Oates I wonder - I talked to him yesterday and he is still pretty sane. He has heard every speech, I think, that has been recorded in this House since Confederation. I spoke with him yesterday and you know the man is still sane. Mr. Oates, on behalf of the government of the Province and members, I wish Mr. Oates all the very best for a long and healthy retirement.

Members may also have noticed that since the House opened in May Mr. Oates has been accompanied in the sound boot by Mr. Kevin Collins. Mr. Collins, who also works in the Legislative Library, has been coached by Jack and will, on July 1, take on Jack's duties as audio equipment operator. We also wish Kevin well in his new role. The best to both of them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House join the Government House Leader and all members of the House in offering congratulations and best wishes to Jack on his retirement. Since I have joined the House and in fact, long before I became a member of the House, Jack Oates was one of the friends that we all had when we visited the House of Assembly for whatever reason. Since I became a member of the House in 1993 I have had many occasions to chat with Jack about his experiences here. He tells me about the events of the '60s and about the day when John Shaheen was called before the Bar of the House and we all, as younger people at that time, came and visited. He can tell you of some great experiences, some of the great speeches and some of the very happy moments and on some occasions some of the not so happy moments.

So, Mr. Speaker, as has been noted by the Government House Leader, we certainly say thank you to him on behalf of the members of the House and on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador for his lengthy service. We wish him well in his retirement. I am sure when the House opens again that he won't resist, and he won't be able to resist, the temptation to be around here somewhere, in the galleries. We will be looking around and I am sure that on some days he will yield to that temptation. We will look up around here and we will still see Jack coming in to listen to the debates because he is just part of the establishment here.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like also to congratulate Jack Oates on his retirement and thank him for his many years of service to the House of Assembly. If he has had the pleasure or the experience of listening to every speech since Confederation, as the Government House Leader has suggested, then he has certainly gotten an ear full over the years and I am sure he has enough to take him through his retirement. I'm not sure he would want to come back for more but he is certainly welcome, and we have to thank him for his service.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In concert with the members who have already spoken in the House today I would like to offer Mr. Oates all the best on his retirement. As a further affirmation of the good sense of Mr. Oates, he has chosen to live most of his life in the District of St. John's North, not only in the best city in the Province, but certainly the best part of the best city in the Province.

I have had the good fortune of not only getting to know Mr. Oates on a professional basis from here in the House, but I've had the better fortune than most of you of getting to know him at his doorstep, and better even than getting to know, him I've had the good fortune of getting to know his wife and his family. I have to tell you that they are magnanimous people in terms of their generosity, they are very gracious people in terms of the type of reception you get when you go to their door, and they are the type of constituents that any member would like to have 10,000 or 12,000 of. They are non-demanding, very, very unassuming people, but notwithstanding that, people who lend to the greater strength of the community in which they live. They add class and character to the District of St. John's North.

On that basis, to John, to his wife and to his family, I wish them all good days in the future. I'm sure that they will enjoy a happy, prosperous and healthy, I hope, retirement long into the future.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: I too would like to join with the House Leaders and the other members who have spoken, and, on behalf of the officers of the House, the Hansard staff and the Legislative Library, to thank Mr. Oates for his dedicated service to this House for thirty-five years, and to wish him and his family all the best in retirement.

SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Admit His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor.

SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Please be seated.

MR. SPEAKER: Your Honour, it is my agreeable duty on behalf of Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, her faithful commons in Newfoundland, to present to Your Honour a bill for the appropriation of supply granted in the present session.

A bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending March 31, 1997 And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service." (Bill No. 15)

HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR (Frederick W. Russell, C.M., LL.D.): In Her Majesty's name I thank her loyal subjects, I accept their benevolence, and I assent to this Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, the General Assembly of the Province has at its present session passed certain bills to which, in the name and on behalf of the General Assembly, I respectfully request Your Honour's assent.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act." (Bill No. 3)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Corporations Capital Tax Act." (Bill No. 4)

A bill, "Act To Authorize The Raising Of Money By Loan, By The Province". (Bill No. 14).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957." (Bill No. 5).

A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Safety Of The Public With Respect To The Use And Operation Of Elevating Devices, Amusement Rides, Pressure And Electrical Systems." (Bill No. 10).

A bill, "An Act To Establish The Professional Fish Harvesters Certification Board And To Provide For The Certification Of Professional Fish Harvesters." (Bill No. 9).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Law To Give Effect To Certain Recommendations Of The Commissioner For Regulatory Reform." (Bill No. 1).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Portability Of Pensions Act." (Bill No. 13).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Parks Act." (Bill No. 7).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act." (Bill No. 12).

A bill, "An Act To Establish The Memorial University Foundation." (Bill No. 16).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Internal Economy Commission Act." (Bill No. 18).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Packaging Material Act." (Bill No. 17).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Accountancy Act." (Bill No.11).

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR: In Her Majesty's Name, I assent to these bills.

I would just like to take this opportunity to wish all the members of this hon. House a happy and healthy summer, with perhaps only a brief but successful interruption of your proceedings.

Thank you very much.

SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: All rise.

[His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor leaves the Chamber.]

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to take advantage of this opportunity, with your indulgence and the indulgence of the House to, first of all, wish members of the House of Assembly, all of whom have had, as we can see by the list of bills that have just been given Royal assent, a busy and I think a productive first session of this meeting of the Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, there are many of us, myself included, who are new members to this Chamber and for whom this is a new experience, and I want to say, on behalf of all of us on this side, but I think particularly on behalf of new members perhaps on both sides, this has been a very interesting and informative session for us.

I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition and his team for keeping the government on its toes as they have done so daily, Mr. Speaker, with greater and greater energy. I won't comment on the effect, we will save that until September or October or July, Mr. Speaker. I want to say likewise to the Leader of the New Democratic Party.

Let me reflect, Mr. Speaker, in particular, before all of us go off for a rest and some reflections sometimes with our family and friends, that I in particular appreciated it on occasion in this session that Parliament was able to pull together and rise to work together on an issue, for example Education Reform.

Mr. Speaker, to all members, but in particular to you and to your staff, we wish you well. We wish you a good rest and we promise to challenge you with as much vigour as we have during these last few weeks when we all return again, hopefully, not too soon.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There are some things I guess the Premier won't comment on that maybe we can; I know that happens occasionally. I want to wish the Speaker and the Officers of the House here and members on both sides of the House, a very safe and happy holiday. Certainly, we will be looking forward to getting back again, at least for a short while this summer, when the Minister of Education reveals his secret legislation, Bill No. 8. We are looking forward to that, so we can deal with it quickly and get on with what needs to be done here in the Province.

As I have said, we have certainly been co-operative from our point of view, and I hope we have been responsible. I can assure the Premier that we will try to be as effective as possible, and whoever wants to be the judge we will let them be the judge of that.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the Premier for his words and to echo his sentiments about it being a new House with lot of new members, a new government and a new Premier, and it has been a most interesting contrast between this House and the last House as it provided new challenges, new debates and new opportunities.

I would like also to join with he and the Leader of the Opposition in thanking the Speaker and the staff of the House for their assistance throughout this sitting. I look forward to having a brief rest before we are back to perhaps deal with the debate over education once more, if necessary over the summer months. I hope all hon. members are able to have a short break in the meantime.

MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the Government House Leader, I too would like to take the opportunity to wish all members a very enjoyable and pleasant summer, and look forward to seeing you again in the not-too-distant future.

Before His Honour addressed us, we were offering congratulatory comments to Mr. Oates, who is now retiring. I believe Mr. Oates was standing to express thanks to all members, but I am not sure if every member heard him. As he said, it is unprecedented to speak, but having spent thirty-five years in his seat silently up there, carrying out his duties, I will ask him if he wants to repeat his comments so that all of the members can hear him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OATES: I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the House of Assembly on both sides of the House for their kind words.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that when this House adjourns today it stand adjourned until the call of the Chair.

The Speaker or, in his absence from the Province, the Deputy Speaker may give notice and thereupon the House shall meet at the time and date stated by the notice of the proposed sitting, and I also move that this House do now adjourn.

On motion, House adjourned until the call of the Chair.