April 10, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 14


The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I rise to congratulate the Southern Shore Breakers who last night clenched the Herder Memorial Trophy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: That is emblematic of senior hockey supremacy in Newfoundland and Labrador. I do offer my condolences to the Member for Cape St. Francis, but we did have a person from his district who was coach of that team. I think that was Don Roche, and I would like to congratulate him and the members of the coaching and the management staff.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about (inaudible)?

MR. SULLIVAN: They are history. They ran out of money, I say to my colleague.

I think it is noteworthy to mention too, Mr. Speaker, that it was only last Monday I rose to announce that the female team had won the championship. Now the senior team has, their second consecutive one, and four in the last six years. I offer congratulations to all members of that team, coach and management staff.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wanted to inform the people of the House today of a new technology partnership being merged between Labradorians and the people of Trinidad and Tobago.

Labradorians are bringing technology experience to international markets. Through a Torbay-based company, Future Works Inc., we are building partnerships overseas. A lady from my district, Ms Sheila Downer, the IT Development Officer for Labrador, is traveling to Trinidad and Tobago this week to assist the International Telecommunications Union of the United Nations in starting a system of four tele-centres.

For the past ten years, Ms Downer has used her skills in technology to manage a progressive tele-centre program in Labrador. The information highway has country roads and no longer are larger centres leading this industry. Through the partnerships of corporations and the corporate sector, Memorial University tele-medicine and others, Labrador is on the cutting edge of technology in North America, using its skills to enhance medicine, education and business.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS JONES: Can I have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS JONES: Ms Downer brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the Trinidad government. We wish her luck and look forward to the benefits this inaugural visit will bring to our Province.

I would like to add that she is a native of Gander Bay. She now resides in L'Anse au Loup, and was educated by the Government House Leader in the days when he was a teacher -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS JONES: - in the classrooms of Gander Bay. She presently holds office on the Board of Directors for Operation ONLINE.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to stand today to recognize and bring greetings and best wishes to a constituent of mine living in Jamestown, formerly from Winter Brook, who celebrated her one hundredth birthday this weekend.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: There was a big gathering of family and friends who came together. In fact, the hall in Winter Brook could hardly hold the number of people there who came out to join in this celebration. While I was speaking and delivering the certificates that were awarded to this lady, one gentleman sang out: You can tell the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation that if we had our road paved you would see twice as many people here.

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly a very happy occasion. It was nice to see family and friends being able to gather there. In bringing greetings and best wishes, Mr. Speaker, maybe I can ask if you would send greetings and best wishes associated with this Assembly here. While we get those greetings coming from the member and from the Premier, which is all needed, I think the event should be recognized. Maybe you yourself, Sir, could send greetings and best wishes from this Assembly recognizing this milestone.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to rise today to pay tribute to two residents of Labrador City, Norm and Pauline Peckham - nee Myers - who celebrated their fifty-third wedding anniversary on Friday past. Norm and Pauline were married at St. Michael's Church on Bell Island on April 7, 1947. Both are war veterans of World War II. Norm served with the Royal Airforce in Asia and Pauline with the WAC in Halifax.

After living briefly in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, Trespassey and Portugal Cove, Norm traveled to a place called Carrol Lake, today's Labrador City. In October 1960 in what was then very much a frontier town, Pauline headed north with their nine children, quite an undertaking at that time, and a tenth child was later born in Labrador City on March 2, 1962. As their children grew, Norm and Pauline became involved in all aspects of the young and growing community. In a nutshell, there were very few activities that they did not leave their mark on.

Norm was a founding member of the local Knights of Columbus and is presently deputy mayor of Labrador City, a position he has held for the past fourteen years. He has been recognized with a builder's award from the community and a community lifestyle award from the federal government. Norm retired from the Iron Ore Company in 1987 and they are both very proud members and active members -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: They are both very proud members of the Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 47, in Labrador City. Mr. Speaker, Norm and Pauline and their children have spent the last forty years in Labrador West and are indeed true pioneers of the north. It is their spirit, both community minded and religious, which makes our community and our Province such a great place to live.

I am certain all members of this hon. House join me in congratulating Norm and Pauline on their fifty-third wedding anniversary and in wishing them the very best in the future.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, during the weekend of March 30 - April 1, St. Catherine's Academy in partnership with the Avalon West School District hosted the 2000 Avalon West Drama Festival. The event was a huge success with over 300 students representing nineteen schools participating in the event. Approximately 1,500 people showed up to view the plays.

Congratulations go out to Mr. Pat Collins of the Avalon West School District, and also to Ms. Bernie Stapelton and Mr. Peter Rompkey, the adjudicators for the event, who indicated that deciding the final winners was a very difficult decision.

Congratulations to all of the winners, especially to Patrick Callahan from St. Anne's Academy in Dunville who was awarded best actor in the intermediate division for "The Other Side of the Wall", and to St. Edward's in Placentia for best set for "Snow White and Friends", also in the intermediate division; to Amanda Walsh for best actress in the high school division from Laval High School for "Fortress"; to St. Catherine's Academy for best costumes in "For Crying Out Loud" and to Laval High School, again, for best play in the production "Fortress".

This is the third year in a row for Laval to win this award. They will go on to compete in the Provincial Drama Festival in St. John's in May. Several merit awards were also presented to: Mark Hanlon of St. Catherine's Academy; Mark English of Fatima Academy, St. Bride's; Nicole Kerrivan and Kayla Coffey of St. Edward's Elementary, Placentia; and to Robyn Smith of St. Anne's Academy, Dunville, for "Exceptional Performance".

I attented both the opening and closing ceremonies and took in a couple of the plays; and, while all participants were school age, the show of professionalism was second to none.

Once again, I would like to congratulate principal Gary Corbett of St. Catherine's Academy, and the community, for a job well done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

 

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would like to welcome to the gallery today, on behalf of all members, Mayor Rumbolt of Bird Cove on the Northern Peninsula.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On March 10, 2000, government received the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board's decision regarding an application by the Hibernia Management & Development Corporation to increase the annual oil production rate from 49.2 million barrels per year to 65.6 million barrels per year.

The C-NOPB's decision was to approve the request. I wish to advise that I have written to the C-NOPB on behalf of government to advise them that the Newfoundland government does not approve the increase at this time.

Under the Accord Acts, the C-NOPB's decision is subject to the approval of the federal and provincial ministers. If the decision is not communicated to the board within a thirty-day period of receipt of the request, approval is deemed to have been given to the request.

The Acts require me to advise the C-NOPB, as I have stated, within thirty days of the decision. If those thirty days had slipped by and the C-NOPB were not advised, approval would have been deemed to have been given.

If the production increase had been approved, more oil would have been taken from the field at a lower royalty rate. Over the life of the project, this would have negatively impacted royalties that were due to the Province.

This was clearly unacceptable. The Province has repeatedly said it should not be disadvantaged by any production increase. To date, government is not satisfied that the Province would be kept whole in the event of a production increase. To address this issue, the Province has had very frank but also good discussions with the owners. Unfortunately, we did not come to an agreement prior to the expiration of the thirty-day period. To protect the Province's position and the best interests of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, it was necessary to advise the C-NOPB that the production increase request was refused.

Mr. Speaker, it is important to point out that the Province was not looking to reopen the royalty agreement. We recognize that an agreement was entered into with the Hibernia owners. We also recognize that substantial benefits accrued to Newfoundland and Labrador in terms of jobs that were created during construction of the Gravity Based System at Bull Arm. We also recognize that a foundation was laid upon which the Provinces was able to build and launch an oil industry. Having said that, however, we must also recognize that we cannot be expected to lose money based on our current agreement or to subsidize a higher annual rate of production.

Mr. Speaker, it is not our intention to publicly speculate on what the Province would require to bring about a resolution to this issue. It is important for the Province to keep all its options open. A legitimate question is, however: where do we go from here? We will continue to discuss the issue with the Hibernia owners, and we are hopeful that a solution can be found that is acceptable to all parties. If and when that occurs, the refusal that was just given may be rescinded.

Mr. Speaker, this is an issue of some importance to the Province. I believe it is in the best interest of all concerned to deal with this issue in a businesslike and timely manner. That is our intent. This government will continue to work with the Hibernia owners to achieve an agreement that will allow for an annual production rate increase that is fair to both the Hibernia owners and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy that at this time this is the right decision, and the government has acted appropriately in view of the time restraints that it is given under the act. To protect the Province's position and the best interest of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, it was necessary to advise C-NOPB that the production increase request was refused. As I have indicated to the minister, this is the right decision and certainly in accordance with the good principles that are found in the Atlantic Accord.

There are two principles, I say to the minister - and it seems perhaps we must always remind the minister - that exist; it is the laws of this Province. I refer specifically to section 2.(c) which states that as a purpose of the Accord is to recognize the right of Newfoundland and Labrador to be the principle beneficiary of the oil and gas resources off its shores; and, pursuant to subsection (d), to recognize the equality of both governments in the management of the resource and - and I emphasize and - to ensure that the pace and manner of development optimize the social and economic benefits to Canada as a whole but to Newfoundland and Labrador in particular.

So when we look at the wording of the Atlantic Accord - which again, to remind the minister, is the governing law of this Province - the decision that the minister has made today, in view of the time constraint, is both correct and appropriate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We welcome the minster's announcement today, as is clear from the C-NOPB's approval of the increase that we need not look to them to protect fully the rights of this Province in the offshore oil industry. The minster's decision to refuse to grant this increase provides time for a process to take place that involves the public and not just the government meeting with HMDC in the back rooms. I call on the minister today to do what needs to be done, Mr. Speaker, engage in a public debate on this whole royalty regime, how it works, how it impacts on this Province, and allow for public input as part of a public process which is expected today not only by the people of this Province but by a recent editorial in The Telegram which said that we need a full explanation of the royalty regimes and returns to the Province of more offshore development.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: It is only when this takes place, Mr. Speaker, will we have a full chance of getting our just deserts.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Earlier today, the Export Development Corporation, EDC, announced that it was opening a new office in our Province.

EDC is a Crown corporation that operates as a commercial financial institution. It provides trade finance services in support of Canadian exporters and investors in up to 200 countries.

EDC helps Canadian companies compete internationally by providing trade finance and risk management services such as export credit insurance, loans to foreign buyers of Canadian goods and services, and guarantees.

Government initiated contact with the Export Development Corporation to encourage them to establish an office here. Both myself and the Premier Tobin met with senior officials and convinced them of the need, and the benefits, to setting up this office in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The EDC has had representation in the Atlantic provinces for a number of years, so it is an encouraging sign of confidence in our economy to see that they are establishing a presence here in our Province.

We have been experiencing strong growth in a number of sectors. In addition, we led all of Canada in gross domestic product growth for the past two years.

Our real GDP growth can partly be attributed to strong export growth. Last year, our Province's exports increased by 13.1 per cent to a record of $5.7 billion.

According to the Export Development Corporation, exports from Newfoundland and Labrador are expected to increase by 8 per cent to 10 per cent this year, followed by a further 4 per cent to 6 per cent increase in 2001.

EDC will be working with our exporters to help them meet the challenges of competing in foreign markets. This new office will be another valuable resource to assist our companies with their export plans, and we intend to work very closely with the Export Development Corporation.

Mr. Speaker, in addition to the office opening, EDC chief economist Stephen Poloz will be delivering a presentation tomorrow on global economic conditions and trends to help local exporters identify foreign market opportunities and risks. I am pleased to see that the EDC is already exploring ways that it can help our businesses.

I invite hon. members to join me in welcoming this office to our Province. I am sure that it will have many positive benefits for the exporting companies throughout our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Another good news announcement today by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. It is easy to see the leadership race is on. Day after day we get announcements by the minister, and they are good news announcements, I say. They are good news announcements so I can't say much.

However, I will say this. Because of the gross domestic product increase there is a tremendous amount of confusion on that side of the House. We see the Minister of Mines and Energy today say that there is nothing wrong with the deal that was struck. We hear the Premier saying that there is something wrong and he likens it to the Joey Smallwood deal on the Upper Churchill. Now the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology is boasting about the great gross domestic product. Every time we have heard an economic forecast about this Province over the past two or three years they say that the growth in the gross domestic product in this Province is due to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. T. OSBORNE: - the oil related industries in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is indeed a welcome announcement that after fifty years of Confederation the Export Development Corporation is going to set up an office in Newfoundland. The development of exports is a complex matter, and the officials involved in supporting that exercise will in fact bring some significant assistance to local exporters trying to develop markets. It is, however, something that we wonder why previous ministers or previous governments -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - were not able to do. Yet this minister is now delivering this result.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This past Friday I had the pleasure to participate in the official launch of the Newfoundland and Labrador Legacy Nature Trust. The Legacy Nature Trust is a non-profit agency with a mandate to raise funds nationally and internationally to finance conservation projects in Newfoundland and Labrador.

This government has contributed $200,000 per year over the next five years in seed funding toward this worthwhile initiative.

The Legacy Nature Trust will work in the interest of conservation, taking a Province-wide approach to identify conservation priorities and projects. Included will be initiatives encompassing marine conservation, wilderness protection and education. The Trust will then develop a marketing plan and undertake fundraising campaigns with the goal of increasing overall funding for conservation initiatives in the Province.

There are several conservation groups and environmental organizations throughout the Province with a number of meaningful goals and objectives aimed at protecting and preserving our environment. The Legacy Nature Trust will not compete for funding with other conservation groups in the Province. Rather it will work with other groups to identify conservation priorities and then seek to match those needs with sources of funding. The Trust will focus on funding sources outside of this Province, at both the national and international levels. The Newfoundland and Labrador Legacy Nature Trust has been modeled, in part, after the Island Nature Trust in Prince Edward Island and the Nature Trust of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, there are many groups and organization across the country and throughout the world that provide funding for conversation initiatives. The Newfoundland and Labrador Legacy Nature Trust board members will be able to identify these sources and access the funding they have to offer.

Increasing funding for conservation and environmental organizations is important from a cultural, social and even an economic perspective. Perhaps more importantly, however, this Trust will enable us to achieve the goal of conserving our legacy for our children.

Government is proud to be involved with such a worthwhile endeavour which promotes the conservation of our natural resources. I am confident the Legacy Nature Trust will bring leadership and a Province-wide vision to conservation issues throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for a copy of his statement. I recognize the importance of protecting and conserving our legacy for our children and for the future. It is good to see that this Legacy Nature Trust will not be competing for funding with other conservation groups in the Province, and will work with other groups to identify conservation priorities for the Province. It is a good initiative.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have no hesitation in supporting the promotion of the Legacy Nature Trust and are impressed with the board of directors who will undertake this work. However, it is going to be enhanced if government will fulfill its promise to announce its own comprehensive plan to identify significant ecological areas and its own plan for protected areas in this Province. That has been waited for for a number of years. Without that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - we will not know what government intends to see protection for.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to recognize a very important celebration taking place in Newfoundland and Labrador this week. From April 9 to April 16, National Volunteer Week is being observed in our Province and across the country. It is an opportunity to honour the many people who, by volunteering in social, recreational and other community nonprofit groups, make our lives happier and more secure.

National Volunteer Week is sponsored nationally by the Canadian Association of Volunteer Bureaux and Centres, and its 200 member organizations in partnership with the Voluntary Action Program. Provincially, the Community Services Council Volunteer Centre will be sponsoring a variety of events and activities to pay tribute to a very important group of people in our society, our volunteers.

Voluntarism is an important way in which we enrich our society and is a key ingredient to our provincial and national character. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador recognizes the important role volunteers play in developing and maintaining healthy and prosperous communities. Since the launch of our Strategic Social Plan in 1998 we have encouraged and supported the importance of community partnerships in economic and social development. Volunteers are one of our most important partners. Our volunteers give endless time to social interests and causes. In addition, though their work is beyond monetary value, voluntarism does contribute significantly to our local economy.

The contributions of volunteers in Newfoundland and Labrador are diverse. There are random acts of kindness to friends, neighbours or strangers; there are donations made to places of worship, charities and community organizations; there are skills used to support national organizations; there are the hours spent helping voluntary organizations; and there are the talents used to support national and global causes.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians also participate in their local community and civic activities in many different ways. Some of this involvement is carried out through the numerous voluntary groups active in our rural communities, towns and cities. An equally important part is self-generated, undertaken by Newfoundlanders on their own, outside the structure of voluntary groups, charitable tax receipts or public recognition.

National Volunteer Week is a time to say a heartfelt thank you to the 110,000 volunteers in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Community Services Council has organized a number of opportunities to extend our appreciation to our volunteers. Over the next week, events will take place such as a Youth Volunteer Recognition ceremony, community receptions, dinners, teas, pizza parties, morning coffees, and proclamations in municipalities and agencies throughout our Province.

The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador recognizes the important role our volunteers play in our social and economic growth. Our volunteers are a resource that make our Province a better place to live. We sincerely thank the volunteers of Newfoundland and Labrador and applaud their invaluable contributions to all of our lives.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of her statement.

I also would like to take this opportunity to thank the volunteers in our Province, not only at this special time, but throughout the year.

As the minister said, volunteers have a vital impact on all aspects of our society: health, education, social services, the youth of our Province, culture, arts and recreation, and the environment. It is interesting to note that National Volunteer Week was first proclaimed in 1943, and it was by Women's Voluntary Services who initiated the week to thank the many women who had been involved on the home front during the war. In the 1960s, National Volunteer Week was expanded to include all the volunteers in our society.

So once again, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the volunteers and to encourage more people to be involved as a volunteer, because it certainly enriches both the people who you help and yourself.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement.

We too would like to pay tribute to the many volunteers who operate and perform services within our communities and within the Province. Indeed, I think it is fair to say that volunteers are the backbone of any community, providing things that otherwise would not be there: work with the children, with sporting events, fundraising for different causes, and to the more serious things that we need in terms of ambulance drivers and firefighters, all of the services that we need that otherwise could not be provided without the tireless effort of volunteers, giving their time unselfishly to make sure that their communities are better places to live. Which in the long term means that the Province as a whole is a much better place to live as well. They deserve to be thanked each day of the week, each week of the year.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform my hon. colleagues of two positive events aimed at improving literacy in our Province. This morning, at KIXX/Q-93, I participated, along with Dr. Bill Fagan, chair of the Literacy Development Council of Newfoundland and Labrador, in a draw of four prizes of $500 each awarded to schools that participated in Read-In 2000. The prize money was provided by the Literacy Development Council and the Department of Education.

The winning schools are Avoca Collegiate in Badger, Cowan Heights Elementary and St. Theresa's in St. John's, and William Mercer Academy in Dover.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Schools will use their $500 prize money to buy books for their libraries.

Read-In 2000 was a project of the Literacy Development Council, which encouraged, in an active way, the importance of reading in everyone's life.

Between March 1 and March 17, teachers and principals were encouraged to invite guest readers to visit the classrooms and read to students.

During Education Week and during Read-In, I enjoyed visiting students at Paradise Elementary in Paradise and St. Thomas of Villanova in Conception Bay South.

I know my colleagues join me in congratulating the students and teachers at the winning schools, and all the schools that participated in Read-In 2000.

There is another important event to promote today. This is Newfoundland and Labrador Library Week.

The purpose is to celebrate libraries and the importance of reading and access to information in many forms - from books, music, videos, magazines and drama to the Internet. Information in these and many other forms can be found in our Province's ninety-six public libraries.

This government recognized the importance of resourcing our libraries several weeks ago when we announced an additional $1 million to the funding to the Province's libraries for the purchase of new books. This had the effect of tripling the board's buying power this year.

The theme of Library Week 2000 is: Read your way around the world.

Mr. Speaker, I encourage everyone to take part in Library Week and to really consider taking the time to read to a child.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minster for an advance copy of the statement. Good news travels fast I suppose. It is certainly traveling around today. I would have to congratulate Dr. Fagan and the Literacy Development Council for promoting literacy in this Province. Congratulations to the schools that have won this. Read-In 2000 - anything that would encourage the young people of this Province to read - is indeed a very positive thing, but I say to the minister that you cannot expect the Literacy Development Council to carry literacy on their backs. We have to make sure that the curriculum within the schools is in place to make sure that we do not - after they leave school - have to be trying to teach literacy. Again I ask the minister to go back before entry into the school and make sure every effort is made to encourage literacy for the younger children.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HEDDERSON: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does that hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. HEDDERSON: No leave?

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HEDDERSON: The second part of it deals with Library Week 2000. The aspect of the libraries, ninety-six of them throughout the Province, is a very positive thing. The theme of Library Week is: Read your way around the world. I emphasize that the reading aspect is a very important one, and anything that this government or any of the volunteer groups can do to make sure that literacy is top priority, certainly the people on this side of the House would encourage.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We too support this initiative by the minister. We acknowledge too the importance of reading and understanding is integral to the development of all the young people in our Province, and it is great to see things happening in the schools.

The second part, that concerning Newfoundland and Labrador Library Week, while it is great to see libraries being funded more for access to the Internet, to buy new books, and others things that are needed, libraries are a central part of all communities in the Province, both socially and for research. I would like to point out to the minister that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: I would like to say that it is great to see the funding put in for these things but it is also important that the local library boards receive funding that allows the libraries to be open so that the people in the communities can access the Internet and the books that are being bought for them.

Thank you.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My colleagues have been complaining about the length of ministerial statements today and I have offered them this advice: just imagine how long we would be here if the Minister of Health and Community Services had one, that is all I can say.

My questions today are for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Last November I sent an access to information request to the federal government for records relating to the work of the four federal- provincial working groups set up to examine various aspects of the proposed transmission line from Gull Island to the Island. The federal government responded last Thursday, April 6. According to the federal government, much of the information they sent was left out, but according to the federal government they withheld much of the information that I asked for under section 14 of the federal act because it was thought to be: "injurious" to federal-provincial relations. The former minister knew about the request; the present minister certainly knew about the request. I would like to ask him this question. Isn't it a fact that you told the federal government to withhold its information, not because it would be injurious to federal-provincial relations, but it would be injurious to the political fortunes of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland and Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: As usual, Mr. Speaker, I cannot say whether the hon. member is even half right. I did not know about his request. Perhaps my colleague, now the Minister of Health and Community Services, might have known. In answer to his question, no, Mr. Speaker, we did not.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Really? Interesting. Last week we had the Premier going here and there on the issue, and the minister saying this and the minister saying that. Let me quote for him what the federal government said to me last week. You can deny it all you want, but when we inquired about the ongoing delays to get the information we were told, categorically, that the federal government was ready to release it, they were ready to give us all of the information related to what we requested, but they were waiting for approvals from "other parties". Now, this being a federal/provincial party, there was only one other party and that was you, Minister. What did you want to hide from the people of the Province, I ask you? Twenty pages of that document deal with population and household projections. What was on those pages that you did not want to release to the people of this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For the record, and I will be absolutely clear on this, I have never once, since I have been minister, or previously, discussed any of this information with any federal official either in the public service or elected.

I say to the hon. Leader of the Opposition, if what he says is true, tell me the name of the official and I will check it out; but he can name no person that can ever claim to have spoke with me on this, period. Tell me who.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the federal government - from the information that we sought and when we spoke to the federal government, told us that they were ready to release it but they would not because other parties....

I will ask you this question. The second section of this report sent to us presented three scenarios of economic growth through "2025". You have this information. I say to the minister, there is no fearmongering, the minister has this information, and maybe he has not informed the caucus or the backbenchers either, which would not surprise me. Why did you want to hide the information set out with respect to scenarios for economic growth to 2025? If the scenarios confirm what all of your ministers and your government and the Premier has been talking about in terms of a rosy future for the Province, why is it that you did not release that information?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The easiest thing in the world is for a member of this House to get up and say some official, someone in the federal government, said something. I say to the hon. member: Tell us who. I will even give him the benefit of telling me confidentially. Tell me who he contacted. Because the first I heard of this was last week; someone said that the federal government had released a Freedom of Information request. They said they did not know who it was from, period. Now, we were never contacted as to what would be in that or not. The federal government made that decision. I have never once -

MR. E. BYRNE: Do you have this?

MR. DICKS: Do I have it? No. Would you care to pass it over so I can review it for you?

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible). If you don't have it, you should not be in the job you are in.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, let me just say something. The hon. member asked me whether I have, in my hands, a copy of what the federal government said to him. No. Do we have access to the information that was discussed back and forth between the committees? Obviously we do. The hon. member should be very careful about what he says in his questions and what he says in across this House, to make sure he is being accurate.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is very careful in what he says in this House and what he is asking the minister. In fact, these are the minister's own working groups. The information contained in this come from a federal/provincial working group which - the minister and the Premier have already got this information.

I would like to ask him this question. In a section headed: "Major Indications of Overall Performance" -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: If he does not have it, I say to the Government House Leader, get somebody else in there to do the job that should be done.

In the section headed "Major Indications of Overall Performance", the working groups developed three scenarios for GDP growth and reached the following conclusion, and I quote, "Following five years of growth that averaged only 1.5 per cent, Newfoundland's economy grew by 4.5 per cent in 1998. All three cases are expecting a strong recovery to continue in 1999."

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

"In fact, there is very little to distinguish among the cases at that point.". Everything goes blank after that. No information released by this government.

I would like to ask him this: What was contained in the projections beyond the year 2000 in these documents that you did not want to release, Minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member is being entirely inaccurate here. The provincial government knows what was in the working groups that we submitted. Whether or not the federal government agree with that, whether or not there are other papers that come out of the working group, we have no way of knowing. Now, if he has information from the federal government, I have not seen it; I would be happy to look at it. If he asks me what is not contained in something I have not seen, obviously the answer is: I don't know.

MR. E. BYRNE: When were you updated last?

MR. DICKS: The hon. member keeps asking questions across the House. If he has a specific part of the information that he has there that he wants to share with me, well and good, but I cannot comment on something that I do not have, to say what is not in it.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, in another section - It is unbelievable that the minister has no idea what I am talking about; this ongoing information developed from federal provincial working committees on the transmission line, and he is standing now and saying he has no information on it. Unbelievable. Shameful is what it is.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me just bring this to the attention of the House, I understood the hon. gentleman just now to quote from that document that he has in his hands. I would ask that he table it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member knows that only ministers are required to table documents in this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In another section of this report it talks about the Structural Attributes of the Province; again, a federal/provincial working committee. It gives a pessimistic forecast of the prospects for economic diversification in the Province. It doesn't see much of a future for development - and this is what it says in the report, federal/provincial working committee - much of a future for development of manufacturing and petrochemical industries or prospects for growth in forestry and fisheries.

I ask the minister: Did the working groups turn down the transmission line because of their pessimism, that there would not be enough demand in the economy for the power generated and generally for the pessimism of the economy itself?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, this sounds more like a working group for the economic policy of the Opposition rather than a working group for the federal and provincial governments.

We have a very optimistic view of where this Province is going. Whether or not what he has in his hands, that he is referring to, that he is not tabling, that he is asking me to answer questions about that I have not seen - well, fine. The hon. member, if he wants to ask an intelligent question and expect a reasonably intelligent answer, should give to the other side a copy of what he is referring to so I can see what it is.

I can tell the hon. member that no, the working groups have not refused because the working groups, to start with, have no authority. They are there to analyze data, to come to some conclusions, to suggest to other people who have decision-making authority - which is not them - what their analysis and advice would be. Having said that, what he has in his hands - I have no idea what it is, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. DICKS: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Oh, yes, I do. That is the problem: you don't, I do. That's your problem not mine, let me say to the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: If the Minister of Mines and Energy expects me or anyone in this House to phone him before Question Period and send over documents (inaudible), you can forget it, Sir. Let me tell you that right now.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the minister this question. This again is a federal/provincial working committee, your own committee, not mine, not put together by the Opposition; the one that the Premier has heralded as: Wait for their review.

I will ask him: Does he agree with the commentary in this report? This is what it says; does he agree with this statement, "Thus, diversification efforts to accelerate development of the Province are most likely to be concentrated in promotion of communications, information, and consumer services?" How does the minister explain - or can he respond to the astounding assumption and conclusion of the federal/provincial working committee and the working groups, that there are little or no prospects for the development of new industries in this Province based upon our resources?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is acting in a very foolish way. He just admitted, when he was posing his question, that he does not send documents over, nor would he possibly alert the government as to what he may be asking; but he is prepared to come to the House, claim he has something in his hand, claim that it was sent to him by the federal government, claims it contains information, and asks me to verify it or not.

Mr. Speaker, I have no idea what he has in his hand. He is waving something about. He has a history of saying things in this House that are not accurate. To answer his question: Do I agree with any working group or any paper he may have in his hand, that there is no possibility for growth or diversification in this economy? The answer is no, I do not.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me ask him this. The four working groups that the Premier said - when he was in the House a couple of weeks ago, when I asked him questions on it - they haven't reached any conclusions. These are some conclusions right here of those federal/provincial working groups, although most of the information you blanked out.

Let me ask you this question. I am told their work is done. Will you commit today to table all of the information of those working groups so everybody in this Province can see what their recommendations were to you?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition obviously has better information than I do because I was last advised that the working group has not completed its task.

I say to the hon. member, if he has papers there, please send them over. Let me take a look at them. I will verify what, if anything, is the truth in it. I will also say where it came from as far as we know and I will answer the questions, but I'm not going to stand here in the House and have the hon. member say things that could be hypothetical and inaccurate and expect to deal with them on a reasonable basis. It simply cannot be done.

AN HON. MEMBER: Put it on the table, boy.

MR. DICKS: Show us the report.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. At 5:30 a.m. today I stood at the junction of the Baie Verte Highway and Highway 410 and Highway 414 to La Scie, better known as the La Scie Highway, with demonstrators, protestors. I met with a bunch of different people, such as mothers who are upset about their children going on school buses with the education reform now and the further distance they have to travel. I talked to miners who could not go to work at Nugget Pond, one of the most successful mines in the Province, the only gold producing mine in the Province. It went on and on.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SHELLEY: These are frustrated people, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the minister this. From the numbers we have seen in the provincial Budget, isn't it true when we really to get down to it - and we want this question clarified first - that after the $70-odd million we talk about, with the extra costs this year of fuel and the other things that the minister has mentioned, that really this year the provincial roads budget is really somewhere near $12 million to $13 million for the entire Province? Is that correct, minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, our allocation for provincial funding of the provincial roads program this year was announced in the Budget as some $16 million. As is always the case we usually have to take so much money out of that for calcium. This year we have an added burden because of the increase in liquid asphalt, approximately 50 per cent or 60 per cent. We have increases in fuel and so on. So whatever the remaining balance of that is will be used on the provincial roads program. Having said that, we have only announced three or four districts in the Province yet with regards to the provincial roads program.

I met with the people of La Scie and all other communities around that area on February 15 in Corner Brook. I advised them at the time that there will be no announcements on the program regarding the roads of the Province until the Budget is down and the provincial roads program is assessed and made available to me by my officials and my department. To this date, that has not been done.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, these people this morning, many of who for the first time ever, ran a demonstration about the program. They felt degraded that they had to do that. That is how they spoke this morning. They are also very frustrated that there are so many conflicting views coming from the provincial and the federal politicians.

Again this morning, the MP for the area said on the open line, as he said two weeks ago with the Minister of Finance for this country, Paul Martin, he told a delegation from that particular area of council members, of chamber of commerce people and so on, that there was federal money available for this year for the provincial roads program. That, in fact, there was federal money available and it is just a matter, like the MP said this morning, of the provincial government asking for it.

Will the minister clarify this: Is there federal money this year for provincial roads in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have heard some of the comments the hon. member has been referring to, and as far as I am concerned the federal MPs have erroneously left the impression with the people of this Province that there is 80-20 money available.

There was a federal infrastructure program announced by the federal government in the last budget. No monies flow from that until the year 2002-2003. When it does flow there is approximately $150 million per year for the next four years for the whole country. There is approximately $600 million under that program for highway transportation systems for the whole country.

I do not have to tell anybody in this House what share we will get. When and if that is approved and it does start to flow in 2002-2003, there will be only one-third paid for by the federal government. So as far as I am concerned, that is wrong, the message is wrong. I stated a week ago in Deer Lake at a Humber joint council meeting that if the federal government - and to the federal MPs - want to put their 80 per cent on the table at lunch time, we will have our share on the table at supper time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is both shameful and embarrassing for those people who have to stand out there on that road today, the people who do not want to be there, to be told on one hand by the federal minister for this country, one-on-one, that the money was there. If what the minister is saying is true, then we were lied to. The people of that area were lied to.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question. He is on a supplementary.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, with that in mind and with what the minister just said, what is the provincial government going to do this year to address hundreds of millions of dollars that the minister talked about that we need so desperately this year, with an ongoing problem that is exploding in this Province? How is he going to address it with $12 million? Is there any other chance of more budgetary funding towards road transportation this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is no secret that in this Province today we need approximately $350 million for Trans-Canada and truck roads. We need another approximately $150 million for collector roads and other roads that we are responsible for in the Province. Almost $500 million is needed over the next five to ten years for the transportation infrastructure system in this Province. We cannot afford to do that as a province on our own.

The La Scie road that the hon. member is talking out is approximately fifty-three kilometers long. Approximately $6 million is needed to do the whole road. Twenty-three kilometers of that particular road is in hard shape, no question. That section alone will take approximately $3.2 million to fix if it was all done this year. It needs to be reconstructed, recapped and paved. We haven't got the money to do it.

When I am ready to announce the provincial roads program for your district and other districts around the Province that will be included. They will get some money. I can't say how much, but I guess no matter how much it is, it is not going to be enough to finish the job, so I guess everybody won't be satisfied. It is as simple as that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minster of Health and Community Services. Last year government budgeted $87.9 million in revenues from lotteries and they took in $99.3 million. That is $11.6 million more than they budgeted. The previous year they took in $9 million more than they budgeted. This year government is only budgeting the same amount they took in this past year, which is $99.3 million, of which in the vicinity of $80 million will come from video lottery terminals. Government only contributes $150,000 annually to deal with problems that are stemming from gambling addictions. This is one-seventh of 1 per cent, which represents only $1,500 for every $1 million they take in on revenue.

I ask the minister: Will the government initiate a program both to deal with the prevention of gambling addiction, and secondly, to treat those who have fallen victim to this rapidly growing disease?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Service.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased that the question has finally been raised in the Legislature, since it has already been asked and answered in the public domain several times in the last little while.

The issue is clear. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, in concert actually with the owners of the establishments in which the video lottery terminals are placed and are used, jointly fund the program for access for people who may have difficulties with a gambling addiction. While the amount that he mentions is dedicated to a phone line and a service for access, that is not the limit of addiction counseling that refers to Newfoundland and Labrador. Addiction counseling is carried out in every health and community services board and region in Newfoundland and Labrador. There is no specific budget line for it in the Budget, but any person who is in need of some counseling and advice, whether it be gambling addiction, smoking addiction, alcohol addiction, there are addiction services in the range of millions of dollars a year funded in this Province, and have been for many years in the past.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

People cannot get access to it. People have phoned me indicating that they are being told they would have to be suicidal before they can get help, minister, and you should know that in your capacity as the Minister of Health.

Government started this industry, they developed the industry, they expanded the industry, and they draw huge profits from this industry. I want to ask the minister if he feels this government has any responsibilities to the individuals and the families who have been victimized as a result of their addiction to a government sponsored business.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe he is asking the questions on behalf of the CBC radio reporter who asked exactly the same questions in the same order. Let me give the same answer.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Let me give the same answer, because it is the same question that has been asked publicly in Newfoundland and Labrador many times before. It is not an urgent issue that needs to be discussed in the Legislature because it has never been asked before. The first question was asked by a CBC radio reporter some time ago, and answered in the public.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get on with his answer.

MR. GRIMES: The second question, the exact one - do you think we have a responsibility to the families of those who might have some problem with addiction? - the answer is the same one I gave publicly. It is already on the record, been used both on radio and television, that in fact this government feels that we have no more of a responsibility for addiction services for those who have a problem with addiction to gambling than we do for those who have addiction problems relating to nicotine from smoking or from alcohol. Because we sell all those things. They are all legal in Newfoundland and Labrador. We generate tremendous revenues from all of them.

Now maybe he is suggesting, if he wants to get to the crux of the matter -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - that if he were to come over here and be the Minister of Health, and if they were to become the government, that they would outlaw smoking, drinking and gambling, and then we wouldn't have a problem. So let's hear what the position of the Opposition is, because we provide addiction services for the whole range of all of the problems that people have today, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is being flippant and trying to divert from the real issue here, their responsibility. You developed the industry, you drive it, you get the bulk of profit from it. It is a government driven industry.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can jog his memory with my news release over the past while later. I don't have time in Question Period to do it, and I have raised it on numerous occasions.

The Nova Scotia gaming foundation just handed over $2 million to the administration of the provincial department of health to deal with problems in that province. I want to ask the minister: Will he put in place a program in this Province that will dedicate 5 per cent of revenues to dealing with this growing problem in our society? Because it is a government responsibility, I might add. I don't mean throw 5 per cent in today -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Will he build a program that will increase it over the next two to three years, up to 5 per cent of the massive amount, the $100 million you are raking in in huge profits in our Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: No, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy, and it concerns the C-NOPB and the proposed increase in production. When will we get beyond the rhetoric and get some information and facts? Will the minister agree to provide a public briefing on the exact nature of the royalties and the royalty amounts that are expected from the Hibernia situation under various production levels? Will he provide that public briefing to indicate what the differences would be under the proposal being offered by Hibernia, together with the implications for equalization payments in other matters?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: I think the hon. member has asked two questions. The first of all is some sort of public briefing on how the royalty scheme works. I say with respect to the hon. member that that is public information. It has often been canvassed in this House, particularly between myself and the Leader of the Opposition in recent days, and if he doesn't understand how that operates I would be happy to brief him privately.

On the other matter, no, I do not intend to disclose the Province's position and our position with Hibernia. We are negotiating. It is detrimental to any prospect for final agreement in this matter that we canvass what both parties are saying at the table. What we are trying to do at this stage is come to a common understanding as to what the principles and interests are, trying to quantify them and there is some difference, and hopefully we will make some conclusion that is mutually agreeable.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, we have a process by which the public is being totally left out and this government is negotiating behind the scenes with Hibernia. Why will the minister not use his powers, together with the federal minister, to order the C-NOPB to have a public hearing process in relation to this so that all of these matters can be discussed publicly and the government can put its position forward publicly to be evaluated while the process is going on, not after the fact?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, that is not appropriate, to go down to C-NOPB and argue publicly to try to get an agreement. The C-NOPB is there for particular reasons. Last week this particular member was attacking the C-NOPB, telling us that you couldn't possibly get a fair hearing before it on this GBS versus FPSO on White Rose. Now he is saying: Let's go down to this tribunal that he describes - and I disagree with him - as being unfair and canvass this publicly. The hon. member is not interested in solutions. He is just interested in having a public dust-up so he and his colleagues can make some political hay out of it. Frankly, I am not interested.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Minister, earlier this year I wrote you a letter under the Freedom of Information Act concerning the telephone contracts with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and two businesses in this Province, one being Cable Atlantic and the other one being Newtel Communications. I was very surprised, Minister, when I received back from you a letter stating that you have denied my request under section 11.(f) of the Freedom of Information Act legislation.

Minister, I have reviewed that legislation and I have also had some legal people review that as well. They can find nowhere in there where you have denied the request. So, I have to ask today, what are we afraid of? What are we hiding here? The people of Newfoundland and Labrador have a right to know what the telephone services in this Province are costing the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I ask you again today, Sir, for the details of the contract with Cable Atlantic and Newtel Communications. I ask you today to release to me, and through this House to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, the cost of telephone services in this Province. After all, what are hiding? What are we trying to cover up?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: The hon. member wants to know the cost of telephone services in the Province. I think it was last spring in the House there were voice telephone service exemptions made to the Public Tender Act. At that time everybody knew, everybody in the House - I believe even the Opposition voted on it, as far as I know.

My understanding is that Newtel Communications put in a proposal for telephone service, as they always did in the Province. It was after that, exemptions were made. There were other people like Cable Atlantic who had voiced some concern and they wanted to put in some quotes and so on. They did that. It just so happened that Newtel had the lower rate for long distance, and for the local phone services and Centrex services, Cable Atlantic did. The total savings: approximately $65,000 in savings over the last year offered by Newtel and approximately $100,000 in services by Cable Atlantic on the two services.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that in my letter to him he knows full well that there were more questions than just the total cost of the phone services. The question you just answered, I can ask you another litany of questions.

First of all, are the other phone companies going to put people into this building to look after the services that we presently receive? Is that going to continue?

I ask you again, Minister, for the full information concerning the letter that I wrote you back in February. I ask you to go back and review this and to come back and tell me why you have denied me and the people of this Province the right to the questions that I have asked? Again, what are we hiding? What are we covering up?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: We are hiding absolutely nothing. All of the information is there with regard to what can be released under the Freedom of Information Act. I was advised by my officials that one of the sections in it - I do not have it here right now to quote from it - has to do with information that may be available then to a competitor. It is a contractual situation in this regard.

I stated in my letter the reasons why we could not release that information. I gave the hon. member the variances with regard to Newtel and Cable Atlantic. Other than that, there is nothing new from me. We told you why it is not going to be released and it will not be released.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I give notice that on tomorrow I will move the following private member's resolution:

WHEREAS pursuant to section 38 of the Memorial University Act as amended in 1993 and the Auditor General Act, the University is required to give the Auditor General access to all books, accounts and records of the University; and

WHEREAS the University, since 1992, has repeatedly refused to give the Auditor General access to all books, accounts and records to which the Auditor General is entitled access by law; and

WHEREAS the Supreme Court of Newfoundland ruled on March 11, 1993, that the Auditor General Act imposes on the University an obligation to give the Auditor General access to all of its books, accounts and records, and that the University has not fulfilled its obligation, and that the only remedy available to the Auditor General under existing law is to report to the House of Assembly that the University has denied the Auditor General full access; and

WHEREAS the people of Newfoundland and Labrador who provide enormous amounts of funding annually to the University from the public treasury expect and demand accountability for the expenditure by the University of that money; and

WHEREAS it is appropriate that the Auditor General, as the chief auditor in this Province of publicly funded institutions, and as an independent arm of the Legislature which votes the funding for Memorial University should have access to all books, accounts and records of the University; and

WHEREAS imposing on the University the demand that the Auditor General must have access to all of its books, accounts and records is reasonable and does not compromise the integrity or customary autonomy of the University;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to take whatever action is necessary, including the legislative action if deemed appropriate, to ensure that the University, without further delay and promptly whenever requested, effectively give the Auditor General full access to all books, accounts and records of the University to which the Auditor General is entitled access by law.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am wondering if I could have leave to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees?

MR. SPEAKER: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Pursuant to section 26.5 (a) of the Financial Administration Act, I am tabling two pre-commitment notices for the Table.

Pursuant to section 28.4 of the Financial Administration Act, I am tabling one Order- in-Council for the creation of a new activity of expenditure.

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I rise again today to present yet another petition. This one is directly from the protest this morning, that was signed at the protest. To the hon. House of Assembly:

WHEREAS the deplorable and unfit condition of the La Scie Highway, Highway 414, makes traveling to and from school unsafe for our children; and

WHEREAS the road conditions jeopardize the safety of the traveling public and betray a lack of commitment to rural areas of our Province;

THEREFORE we, the undersigned residents of La Scie and surrounding area in the District of Baie Verte, do hereby petition the government to upgrade and pave Highway 414.

Mr. Speaker, what I could not get to in questions this morning, I would like to say in this petition. These people I spoke to this morning, most of them - and I spoke to almost everyone who were there. I was there at 5:30 a.m. and I started to speak to mothers. I spoke to miners who could not get to work this morning. I talked to business people who said they were losing business in the area.

Mr. Speaker, we are in a position now, we are at a crossroads now, where that particular road is as bad or worse than any gravel road that is in this Province. The reason for asking the question I asked the minister today - and the minister knows full well because we have talked about it and discussed it many times. As a matter of fact, before he was minister, I spoke to the former minister, now the Minister of Finance, about the situation overall in this Province. In a nutshell, the amount of money being allocated by this government to enhance the provincial roads program is not adding up. As a matter of fact, it is a growing crisis. It is something that is brewing in this Province, that is coming to a head.

Mr. Speaker, simply put, the people are concerned about the La Scie road and also gravel roads in my district and in other districts in the Province, some 1400 kilometres of still unpaved road in the year 2000, fifty years after Confederation. It is something that all of us should be ashamed of - previous governments and the present government - whatever stripe. It is shameful on all of us.

These people who were on this road this morning feel degraded to even have to go out there and protest at 6:00 in the morning for something that they so strongly believe in. I support them fully. I know they have continued to do this now for the last couple of years with this particular committee, which has done a superb job of lobbying and making sure the message gets through to the government. I know the minister's office has been inundated with messages, phone calls and letters, and everything that I have received also. They are asking for simple, common decency. Can you image that economic development may be at stake here because we do not have a basic road infrastructure. They are not looking for a ring road. They are not looking for double lanes or a barrier that goes through Grand Falls. They are looking for a simple, straightforward two-lane highway, a paved highway.

We are talking about La Scie road, that is some twenty to twenty-five years old. That is incredible. It was only two weekends ago, Mr. Speaker, that I was heading to the community of Ming's Bight, which is one of the eleven communities off this particular road. I was trying to get there on time, not even up to the speed limit, and I hit a crater. It was not a pothole anymore, it was a crater, and it caused me to lose the front end of my car.

Then I talked to school children, and I think there was someone in the media today, talking about the experience of being on a bus on a road like that. So that I could really understand it, I sat on a bus in Pacquet last year to go over one of those roads, and sat in the back with the students, Mr, Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SHELLEY: So I fully support him. It is straightforward common decency. Roads like this in the Province are something that government should be ashamed of. I hope it is addressed very soon.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I too have a petition. The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in Legislative session convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland:

WHEREAS approximately four kilometers of the main road through the community of Lethbridge was upgraded and paved in 1999; and

WHEREAS approximately four kilometers of the main road through Lethbridge remains in a deplorable condition; and

WHEREAS this section of the road has not been upgraded since it was paved approximately thirty years ago; and

WHEREAS this section of the road is in such terrible condition that vehicles are being damaged, including school buses serving three schools in the area, and school children are finding their daily trips over the road very difficult;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to complete the upgrading and paving of the main road through Lethbridge in this fiscal year.

As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, here is a petition brought forward by the residents of Lethbridge asking the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to provide funding to complete the main road through the town of Lethbridge. Last year there was approximately four kilometers completed. This year -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Musgravetown was done last year, I say to the minister, absolutely. There was four kilometers done. There is four kilometers that remains to be done of the main road through Lethbridge.

Mr. Speaker, here is a situation where you drive down through the four kilometers of road through Lethbridge. For the most part you have two tires on the pavement and two tires on the shoulder of the road in order to get away from the bumps and the holes in that particular section of pavement.

Sometimes I question the wisdom of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation in the major upgrading that they do through the communities in this Province. In fact, the minister was astonished to go through places in Musgravetown and Lethbridge last year where he referred to it as Trans-Canada work. When you see the amount of work that was being done by taking away the hills and filling in all the dips and the valleys, I am not so sure. It is great if we have lots of money. Then we can have a good road and we can have a class A road right across the Province. The road that presently exists in those communities has served the people well for the last thirty years. If we had gone back over those roads and if we dealt with the situation according to the money that we have had in the budget where we could shape up the road, put in culverts, recap what was there, and if we got another twenty or twenty-five years, then I say to the minister, and I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that that would be the life of the road anyway.

Down through Musgravetown now I notice pavement that was put down last year, and already the Department of Works, Services and Transportation needs to go back now and patch the holes, so I am not convinced that all the engineering work -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - that is being done in order to upgrade those roads is really necessary or is paying great dividends. So the people in Lethbridge, Mr. Speaker, are asking the minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - to look at their situation this year, complete the work that has been started, and hopefully their road will be upgraded and paved to a suitable condition in this fiscal year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition today from the residents of the McKay Street area. The prayer of the petition reads as follows:

We, the residents of McKay Street, St. John's, Newfoundland, wish to petition the hon. House of Assembly to implement a school bus route for the primary age children of the area. We realize the policy outlined by the Department of Education states a child must live one point six kilometers from the school in order to obtain the rights to a busing system. Please note the distance from McKay Street to Holy Cross is just barely under one point six kilometers. We are requesting, due to the age of the children and the nature of the walking route where children are forced to walk along major thoroughfares and cross extremely dangerous intersections, that a bus route be provided. The safety of our children is our primary concern.

I have spoken to the Minister of Education personally on this issue. While I realize that the board's policy is that it has to be greater than one point six kilometers in order to obtain a busing route for the area, the residents of the area have a point. That is, that the child walking along this busy route are primary age children, kindergarten, grades I, II and III children, and these children have to walk along a very busy thoroughfare and cross busy intersections. That raises some health and safety concerns for those children.

Not all parents are able to provide transportation for their children. Not all parents, because of other children that they are looking after in their home, are able to walk with their children to the school. Not all parents even have transportation, and are unable to afford to provide taxi service and so on. This is a real issue. While we realize that this is the first year that busing has been provided to that area, we are asking government to take another look. We are asking government to keep in mind the fact that these children are very young children, primary age children. That is all we are asking for them. We are not asking for the high school children from the area. We are asking for the younger grades, the primary school children in that area, to be provided busing to allow for a safe passage from home to school and return again.

Based on that, I support the residents of the area in their request for busing for their children. I know that busing is provided for children just around the corner. Just houses away, really, from that area, busing is provided for other children. We are asking the Minister of Education to have another look at this, to reconsider. We are asking the board to reconsider this decision and to put transportation in place for those children.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 2, Concurrence Motion, Social Services Committee.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I understand it is Order 2. Not Motion 2, Order 2.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, yes, Order 2, the Social Services Committee.

MR. SPEAKER: Concurrence Motion, Order 2, Social Services Committee.

Is it the pleasure of the House to concur in the concurrence?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Nobody stood to speak, so the Chair figured there was an agreement for concurrence.

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: My apologies, Mr. Speaker, I was halfway to my feet.

Just to get back to the funding with regard to education, the committee went through the Estimates and looked at how the money has been spent in education. There were any number of questions that were brought forth regarding the type of funding that has been given to education this particular budget year. Again, there were some bright spots but for the most part there were more disappointments with regard to the amount of funding that was put in.

This year in particular there were great expectations, I say to you, regarding the amount of money that would be placed in education. The report that was released just last week was to be a jumping off point whereby a lot of the things that should have been done in the past decade would have been done, or at least started, in this particular year, but this year it appears to be more of a catch-up year than anything else. The money that has been put in has been put in more to maintain and retrieve programs that were lost over the last number of years. The important thing to remember is that the reform that was promised back in 1992 by the original Williams report has really fizzled out tremendously over the last eight years. When we look at this particular Budget there is certainly a lot of room for more things to be done, following from the report that we had just a couple of days ago.

One of the areas that again fell very strongly has to be in curriculum development. It is an area which has not been given the attention it has needed over the last number of years. It is most important that it be looked upon as something that has to be really concentrated on. The restructuring was done and there were schools closed. We are dealing now with an education system of probably about 340 schools at the end of this school year. You are talking about 90,000 students. Yet, I say to you, there still appears to be a lot of room for improvement especially with regard to curriculum development.

At the high school level, there is talk now of the public exams going back into the system. Again, this is a welcome development from many parties, but the question comes up as to what type of public exams are going back in, in light of the fact that many of the courses that these public exams will be testing have yet to be developed and implemented into the system. The plan, it appears, coming out of the release of that Williams report, I say to you, of a couple of days ago, seems to be stretched - with regard to curriculum development - over five years, and five years is an awfully long time to delay what should be a crucial area at this particular time. The money that has been spent right now this year, especially with regard to curriculum development, is not near what it should be to make sure that the recommendations of that new report of a couple of days ago is carried out.

Under distance education, it is good to see in the report that there was to be now more of an emphasis on the distance education, which indeed it should be, because we have to keep up with the technology. Distance education is nothing new for Newfoundland and Labrador. It has been a development throughout the years as every effort has been made to ensure that the children, no matter where you live in the Province, are given what we would consider a good basic program. For distance education the technology is there, but I wonder, once again, is the priority there to make sure that the money that is spent, with regard to distance education, will ensure equality throughout this particular Province?

Under the student support services, especially the special needs, and looking at the special needs and how it has been handled over the last number of years, I have to say it has been handled very poorly. It is not necessarily a matter of pouring money into it. It is developing programs, implementing them properly, making sure that the teachers are professionally in-serviced in it before the full implementation takes place. That has not been done. When you look at the statistics, if statistics are used, it appears that everything is fine, everything is great, but you have to go beyond statistics, I say to you, and realize that when it comes to supporting services, special needs, especially in the schools, you can't always just depend on numbers. You have to look at needs. The special ed. programs in the schools are certainly programs that need to be addressed and need to be addressed in a very positive way.

The education system is a key area. I feel, looking at especially the K to XII system, that since 1996 there has been something to the tune of $66 million taken out of that K to XII allotment. It is cut too deeply. The amount of money that is placed back, something like $3 million this year, is certainly not going to offset that and it is going to take many years in order to recover it at that particular rate.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, it is very important that the education of our children in Newfoundland and Labrador not only be a top priority but remain a top priority in budgeting out the financial allocations of this particular Province.

With regard to the school board operations, again I say to you that the buildings in our Province, the school buildings our children attend on a daily basis, these buildings are in dire need of good preventive maintenance.

We have any number of schools throughout this Province where the roof is leaking. The school boards seem not to be able to maintain these buildings in a manner whereby the air quality is assured, whereby spelling bees certainly can be carried out without threat of rain, whereby spelling bees would not be cancelled in particular classrooms because there is rain coming down. This is where we have to see some real action, because the children of our Province cannot be given a good delivery of education unless the buildings they are in are fit to be in.

I say to you that the maintenance - and I cannot emphasize this enough - the maintenance of these buildings is most important. When you have these buildings laying idle in the summertime and there is no maintenance going on, there is something wrong with this; because the time when these schools are down during vacations should be the time whereby it is important that the caretakers, the janitors, are in there doing the work that is required to make sure these buildings are fit.

To get back to the leaky roofs, in my district alone there are two buildings right now, Whitbourne High and Ascension Collegiate, which are in dire straits with regard to a roof; but, again, it has not been done. For some reason or another the Whitbourne school, the money is supposed to be there but the work is not being carried out until perhaps we get a sunny day. I was in there the other night and there is frustration because again they realize with each passing day there is more and more damage not only to the building itself but to the health and safety of the children there.

With regard to school boards, they are operating, in many cases, on very limited budgets with great needs. It is most important, especially with maintaining the buildings - the air quality I have mentioned. In 1998 there was money put aside for air quality testings; but, in many of the schools where the air quality tests were done, they went in beforehand and cleaned the schools, did the testing, got very good results, which clearly indicated that it was maintenance that was required to make sure these schools were up to scratch; but, since that time, there has been very little in the way of follow-up from 1998 in re-testing or otherwise to make sure that the buildings are certainly fit to be in.

With regard to site selection - and this has come up time and time again - with regard to where the school should be going, right now I think out in the Bay d'Espoir area there are still some questions from some of the parents as to whether or not the site at (inaudible) Bay is going to be a safe site. Again I say to you, it is very important when we are constructing schools to make sure that every precaution is taken to ensure the safety of not only the students but of the staff and anyone associated with schools. It is not a question of where schools should go. It is a question as to how safe the site is at any particular time. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, how important it is to make sure every precaution is taken. In this particular case, there are some questions that certainly need to be answered, whether it be by an environmental assessment or from the company operating the dams and so on out there.

The school boards certainly have been under a tremendous amount of pressure regarding trying to deliver education to the children in this particular Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and it is very important that they be supported by the Department of Education. In this particular case, this year the support has not gone far enough. When we look at the needs in the particular education system, it is most important that we see that all areas are looked at, priorities are given, and that we move forward; but when you get into a situation whereby there is a scramble this year to return reading specialists to the school; when there is a scramble this year to put back in public exams; when there is a scramble to replace classroom teachers who were taken out in years gone by; when there is a scramble to look at putting forth a strong curriculum; when we look at this type of a scramble, we have to ask the question as to whether or not this government is responding to the needs of the education system at this particular time.

Moving through, again staying with education, and to go back to public exams, they were supposedly cancelled in 1996 because there was not enough money and now they are coming back in; but you notice that is not necessarily the public exams that were taken out in 1996, because there is no way of knowing, at this particular time, what format they are going to take, what subject areas they are going to be part of.

Also it was interesting to note, in going through, under education, with regard to the Budget, that this Province is tied in - especially with regard to the high school program - closely with the Atlantic Provinces.

On the up side, it is always good to be associated with a larger group. In this case we would be associated with three other provinces, and supposedly in areas like math, science, and language arts, we would be sharing wonderful resources, developing great courses. The only thing I say to you is, when we look at the Atlantic Provinces, we ask ourselves: Are they holding us back with regard to curriculum development? Because if we are putting into the high school courses, does that mean that we have to wait until we get approval from the other three?

What about our public exams? They are talking about public exams for Newfoundland and Labrador. Wouldn't you think that this would be an Atlantic development where the tests would be the same throughout the four Atlantic Provinces? Again we wonder if indeed, in joining with them, we are holding ourselves back.

Perhaps it would be better if we looked at, in Newfoundland, getting our own house in order, taking care of what concerns and needs are in Newfoundland and Labrador, and then perhaps joining with the Atlantic Provinces and indeed the country into a more national curriculum. So be it, but it is very important, that the education system in Newfoundland and Labrador be looked at for what it is, and that every effort should be made, financially or otherwise, to push it forward and not keep it back.

 

The aspect of busing - my colleague brought up just a minute ago that when we are looking at busing children to the nearest school, or to schools in general, we take into account simply the physical distance. The physical distance in this regulation is 1.6 kilometers. It is not 1.59 kilometers or even close, and that is the only thing that is looked at. Certainly the grade levels in St. John's are looked at as well, but what I am saying to you is that when it comes to busing there are situations in this Province - as my colleague has certainly indicated - where traffic patterns and safety is compromised. Surely heavens, the Department of Education are not limited in their ability to respond to unique cases, because it is most, most important that the safety of our children be certainly looked at.

Also with busing - we are eight or ten years down the road on school reform. The numbers have dropped and we are constantly reminded by the minister that the numbers are dropping, and because the numbers are dropping we have to reduce teachers, so on and so forth. The funny thing about it is that the cost of busing has not been reduced, despite the fact that we are delivering, bringing or sending less than probably one-third since the 1990s. So busing is still as expensive, and perhaps even more so, than it was before. Again, it begs the question as to what is going on? Does it mean that by closing the number of schools that we have, that we are sending children larger distances requiring more busing? Whereas when this was talked about in 1996 with regard to referendums, et cetera, part of the reason why many people voted in favour of reform was the aspect of reducing busing, especially cross-busing; but we find in this financial report that the busing operations are costing us as much, if not more, than in the past. Again, busing is an important one. It is one that needs to be looked at, one that has to be decided as being, once again, a particular priority.

To again return to curriculum, that is most important, as I pointed out. It is good to see - I have to say, it is good to see - that a history course has been put into the curriculum. Now it is at a Grade VIII level which means, I hope, that every student coming through the system now - and it won't be developed for another year, I believe, or two - every child now coming through the system, at lease in Grade VIII, will be given the wonderful opportunity to learn about the history, the culture, of -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HEDDERSON: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you.

I will just clue up, Mr. Speaker. Once again, I will clue up on the curriculum, that it is most important that the curriculum be looked at.

The other area has to do with reading. Again, I can't tell you enough how important it is. We heard from the minister today about literacy, and encouraging literacy and Read-In 2000. The only thing about it is that I would be very wary of introducing particular reading programs. It is important that we have the resources there and that the teachers in the school system have the availability of choosing what is the best way to tackle reading problems, and the earlier the intervention, certainly the better.

In closing off, then, I would like to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that the reform has finally started which is good to see, but I am very wary about the financial support that is in this Budget for the implementation of this particular report. I would again encourage the government to move quickly in ensuring that the recommendations that are contained in the Williams-Sparkes report are actioned and guaranteed, so that we will not be, in a couple of years' time, standing here wondering what happened with regard to education reform.

Again, I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thought I would speak to some of the points raised by the member opposite, but as he went on and on it became very obvious that he was rambling. I am sure when he gets a chance to read the transcript of his remarks - it was really difficult to keep track of where he was going or what direction he was going in. So I will take advantage of this opportunity to speak to education in this Province and exactly what it is we have been able to accomplish as a government and where we are going.

We all recognize that school boards have had a very difficult time. We are in the middle of restructuring, we have come from a very difficult time of reorganization. Having said that, clearly the issue has been focused on buildings, on redevelopments and on new builds. We now have an opportunity, as a result of the Ministerial Panel on education, to really focus on the classroom like it has not been focused on before.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Now, I can stand here and respond to your questions if you want or I can speak like your member had the opportunity to speak. So I would really appreciate it, if you do not mind.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, we have an opportunity now with the Ministerial Panel to really focus on the classroom. We have looking very closing at what has been happening in the education system in this Province and we are feeling very comfortable with this report, because we think it builds a vision for this Province. It points us in a new direction. It gets us to focus on the delivery of curriculum. It gets us away from putting teachers in place based on student enrollment. That is a very serious concern for us as a province, whether we want to accept it or not.

If you look back ten, fifteen or twenty years ago we had the peak student enrollment of 162,000 children in our education system. Today we have 97,000. If we look ten years out we will have about 50,000. That is a very real concern for us as a government and as a province, and something that both co-chairs of the Ministerial Panel recognized. It is something that we are going to have to deal with. How best to deal with that when we know that these students are spread out around this Province? Of course, because of our geography they are spread far and wide, which again is of some concern to us because we have to make sure that we deliver an essential program.

I am really pleased that the co-chairs, Dr. Sparkes and Dr. Williams, actually identified not a core program but an essential program that needs to be delivered in our school system. In doing that they have identified courses that have not been offered to every student in this Province before. In fact, they have identified, as part of the essential program, music, art and physical education. We all know that up this point those courses have not been available in every school in this Province. As a result of the Ministerial Panel and the fact that the recommendation is to make sure that we offer an essential program to every student in our Province, they will be able to avail of those courses. What we have to make sure is that it is done either with a teacher in the classroom or through distance education. We have to make sure that if we are offering programs like music, for instance, that we continue to offer existing music programs that are delivered by music specialists.

I know there has been some concern expressed about that but I have to say, and as the co-chairs have confirmed, there was never - never - an intention to move away from offering the present day music curriculum and it being offered by music specialists. I think it is important to make that note because there has been some concern expressed. Regrettably, people tend to express views without first picking up the phone and calling to see what the intent of the recommendation was on the chance that there may be some misunderstanding. I think in this case there certainly has been. I am hoping that we will be able to resolve that, and certainly we have agreed to put in place a committee to meet with those interested and concerned parties about the delivery of music curriculum in the schools.

I want to go back to the school boards and the challenge that all of our trustees have. We have to bear in mind that these are elected trustees of these school boards, people who have put themselves forward because they really want to make a difference in the delivery of education in this Province. Yes, they have had some difficult decisions to make, but I have to say that you bear in mind these are volunteers, that they exercise their best judgement based on the information available to them. They have been doing that all across this Province.

I think we all recognize that we are talking about introducing significant change when we talk about reforming the education system in this Province, and change is never easy to accept. In fact, most people are fearful of change, and I think that is what we have seen come out of this process in the last two to four years. I think it is safe to say that where we have seen some consolidation of schools, those who were a little nervous at the beginning - and I think specifically of a number of schools where there was really some reluctance to come together for whatever reason - that if you go in to some of those areas now they will tell you that in fact the final result has been a really positive one, where we have seen children coming together and learning from each other and working with each other.

We have also seen children being able to access many more courses than they could in the past. In fact, we have seen the program offerings, particularly at our high school level, increase substantially over the last number of years. Proof positive that it is working again is the fact that we have seen more students graduate from high school than we have seen in a long time. We have also seen more of these students going on to post-secondary institutions.

Another one of the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel that I would like to speak to, of course, is the reinstatement of public exams. When we say more students have gone on to post-secondary institutions, I think the point we have to remember here is that there is some concern been expressed at the post-secondary institutions about whether or not some of our students are actually prepared to go into those post-secondary institutions. That has raised a number of concerns, not only from the post-secondary institutions but from parents as well, and from students themselves who say: I am really not quite sure that I know what I want to do, and when I get into a particular post-secondary institution then I find out that maybe I wasn't prepared for this or that particular program.

I think that is what will be the benefit of reintroducing public examinations. Yes, they were cancelled several years ago. It was the decision that was taken at the time for a number of reasons. We are reinstating them because the Panel found out during their consultation process that it was certainly the right thing to do, and we tend to do the right thing when it comes to education in this Province. One of the things that has been brought up is whether or not the public exams will actually be multiple choice. I have to tell you that it is the recommendation of the Panel that some of them indeed will be multiple choice, but that it is certainly not the intention that it would all be multiple choice.

For instance, if you look at programs like Language Arts it is very difficult to offer a final exam in Language Arts only focusing on multiple choice. I think it would depend on the subject area. It will be done in the manner that it is done everywhere throughout the country when you look at public examinations. Don't forget that public examinations account for 50 per cent of the final grade. In fact, the other 50 per cent will be the grading by the teacher himself or herself. I am really happy that we are reinstating public exams because I think it is the right thing to do and the right approach to take.

We have not been scrambling. To suggest what is happening here in terms of implementing the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel is anything in the way of scrambling is wrong. In fact, it is an acknowledgment by this government that everything is not perfect in our education system, any more than everything is perfect in any other system that we have in this Province. Do we recognize that we can make some improvements? Of course we can make some improvements. That is exactly why we put in place the Ministerial Panel. If we thought for a minute that we would have some concerns or any concerns about what the Panel would find, we wouldn't have done what we did in terms of appointing Dr. Williams and Dr. Sparkes to look at the delivery of education in the classroom.

We knew we wanted to get the best advice we could possibly get. That is why we put in place two eminent scholars, two of the best educators in this Province, to look at our system and tell us now how we could improve our system, based on the fact that we have come through education reform, based on the fact that we have looked at declining student enrolments, and based on the fact that we have gone through the consolidation process. That is not to say that there isn't some more consolidation that can happen, because clearly there will be. We will still have areas where we will see fewer and fewer students. Unfortunately, we are seeing our student population decline to the rate of about 4,000 a year, which is unfortunate and certainly regrettable. That is a fact of life, as of today, and certainly something that we have to be prepared for. It was with those circumstances in mind that we wanted Dr. Williams and Dr. Sparkes to have a very good look at the best way we could deliver education in this Province, bearing in mind that we are having fewer and fewer students.

I have to say again that when we talk about the money that is going into the education system, we have not taken money out of the system. On the contrary; we put money back in the system in spite of a decline in student enrollment, in spite of fewer buildings. In fact, if you were to look at the money that has gone into the system in the 1990s, you would see that our enrollment has decreased by 22.2 per cent. We have seen our expenditures decrease by 10.8 per cent. We are double in terms of the enrollment decline versus the change in the expenditures on education but our expenditures per student have, in fact, increased 18.7 per cent over the past seven years. So the money is going into the system and we have no inclination at all to take money out of the system for the sake of taking money out of the system. We want to make sure that we reinvest. We want to make sure that our students have the best possible buildings in which to learn. We want to make sure they have state-of-the-art facilities. In fact, in this budget alone we put in $4 million, over the next three years, for a total of $12 million, to repair damages to roofs, and to look at air quality problems in our school system.

When the member opposite talks about the school at Whitbourne, yes, I recognize there is a serious issue there. Could we have repaired it sooner? No. In fact, we have had Works, Services out there. We have had people from our department out there. The buildup of ice on top of that roof - it is a flat roof - is such that for anyone to go up there while it is covered with snow and ice would be hazardous for them and for that individual. We have opted to take our time with it, for the very reason that repairs couldn't be carried out while there was a buildup of snow and ice on the top of that roof, and we certainly wouldn't send an inspector up there while that was the case. In fact, when it is brought to my attention, I look into it and I act on it where I can.

We are going to make sure that $12 million that has been allocated for maintenance, for roof repairs and air quality, is used in all of our schools where needs exist, and we are going to make sure that it is done on a very quick basis so that we don't have children in buildings that are leaking or where there is poor air quality.

We talk about busing. Again, busing is an issue for all of us in this Province because of the geography of the Province and the fact that we have had to consolidate some of our schools. The fact of the matter is that our children do travel from community to community to attend school, but that is no different from the rest of the country. I think we have to sit back sometimes and look at where we are in this Province versus the situation in other provinces. We will see, when we do that, how fortunate we are in terms of - in fact, if you look at busing in Nova Scotia, for instance, I am told that they have to pay for their busing. That is not the case here. If you look at - particularly in rural Newfoundland. For the first time ever this government put in busing in St. John's for children in K-VI. That was a new initiative. That did not happen before. This government decided to do it.

So there are lots of things that we can take credit for as a government. We made considerable inroads in terms of improving the education system. Are we perfect? Of course not. Are we trying to be? No, no one is perfect. The good Lord himself wasn't perfect and, of course, he was criticized as well.

At the end of the day, we have to make our best efforts working with the resources that we have available to us, and we are doing just that. We know as well that we have a report out there that is going to cost about $20 million to implement but it is a report that has been accepted by the Cabinet and by the government. There are some eighty-six recommendations there. We have looked closely at all of these recommendations, but one of the ones that I am really excited about as well that I would like to point to is the centre for distance learning and innovation. I think this is a concept, it is an initiative that will really put our students in the forefront in terms of knowing the technology, being able to access the technology, and being able to compete with students from anywhere, not only in this country but in North America and the world, as they become familiar with the technology.

Anyone who would suggest that this is a way to replace teachers, nothing is further from the truth. That is certainly not the intent and that will not be the case. In fact, you will probably see more teachers because we are going to be including, what we call, E teachers, and these are teacher who will be responsible for delivering the Distance Education. We will also have teachers in the classroom where the children are, in fact, utilizing the technology to monitor what is being done in the classrooms; so they will have a teacher there who they can contact and who will monitor their progress as well.

This centre for distance learning in education is a very innovative approach. It is one where we have to make sure that our children are well prepared, that they do not go into this blindly but that they are led and that they know exactly what to expect, but it will also enable us to offer programming that they would not otherwise be able to access.

You know, people have said that there is going to be a teacher shortage and that concerns me. I have said time and again, we are going to do everything we can to try and ensure that does not happen in this Province; but the truth of the matter is that we are seeing it happening in some other provinces now and people are starting to call here to look at the availability of teachers, and particularly teachers who are retiring, but we are going to make sure that does not happen here. One of the ways, of course, is to ensure that where we can put teachers in the classrooms, we certainly will. Where teachers are not available, we will certainly work with our Distance Education technology. We are going to work very closely with all of the school boards and with the schools and with the school councils to make sure that this does not happen down the road.

I talked about the boards and how important they are to this whole evolution of education in our Province. The other group that we have to touch on, that we sometimes overlook, are the school councils. Of course, the school councils are comprised of parents by and large but there are teachers and principals on the school council as well. Working with the school councils, working with the school boards, working with teachers, and working with the students and other stakeholders in education, we have to move now to implement the Ministerial Panel report; excellent recommendations there. Some, of course, we have already budgeted for and we are moving ahead with very quickly. Others will have to look for the money for it in subsequent budgets, but over the next three years I see us implementing all of these recommendations among which, of course, will be increased professional development for our teachers; very, very important.

Our teachers need to know that they will have access to increased professional development. In this budget alone, we put in $900,000 for that. Of course, one of the recommendations of the Panel was that there would be an additional three days' pay for the teachers so that we could extend the school year by three days so they could do their professional development outside of the school year in terms of when the children would actually be in school. I think that is a very valid recommendation.

The other one, of course, is to recognize the role of the principals in our schools, the leaders in our schools, the people to whom we have to turn to ensure that our students are, in fact, getting a good education. We have looked at that, recognizing again that we have to do something for our principals, and again this is a recommendation of the Ministerial Panel.

By and large, all of the recommendations are good recommendations. We are very comfortable with all of them and we are going to move forward with them, recognizing again that we have to work within the resources available to us; but I have no reason to think that those resources will not be available unless, of course, something happens to turn our economy around so that we will not be able to access the additional money required.

If you look at $20 million over three years, if you look at the money that we are spending now, over $700 million a year on education in this Province, a Province where you can see the difficulty we are having when we you see that we have a declining student enrollment but still the cost of education continues to increase. A lot of that, of course, again would be because of the fact that we have a disbursed population and the geography of the Province.

Again, you talk about the cost for busing. Yes, there is a cost for busing, an increased cost, yes. Consolidation is important, I think, because at the end of the day we have to make sure that we are able to offer a variety of programming for our students and we are able to offer that if we are able to bring more of our students together.

We also have to be able to offer courses for those students who excel, and I think we probably have not done that to the degree that we should do it in terms of students who really need some advanced placement courses. We are trying to do that as well in a number of ways but certainly we have done that throughout our school system, but the centre for distance education and innovation will enable us to do that to a much larger degree than we have been able to do it to date.

So we are looking forward to be able to take care of our average student, if I could put it that way, but as well our students who excel in any number of areas; but again we have to also look at those students who need special help. If you look at our special needs area itself, that is an area where we spend $70 million and an area that we continue to focus on because we recognize that there are needs as well. Part of the problem, though, when you look at our special needs area, is to try and ensure that our children in special needs become more independent rather than dependent. That is always a concern we have, because you never know when you have gone too far in terms of taking away their independence. There are a lot of issues for us in education in this Province, but at the end of the day we have a responsibility to make sure that our students get the best education system they can possibly get. We are determined to do that. We are determined to deliver on that commitment. If you look at the fact that we put in place a Ministerial Panel to look at the state of education in this Province, to report back to us with recommendations, that speaks volumes of our commitment and the fact that we have now endorsed the eighty-six recommendations again says we really support an increased focus on quality education in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to make a few comments on some of the major concerns that are in the Province today, I guess none as important to the people of the Province as health care. Over the last few weeks we have heard the minister make some comments on the investment that this government, I guess, is putting into health care in the Province.

I was very pleased to see a major debate here in the House today between the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne and the Minister of Education on another important issue and that is education. There is no doubt about it, education play a vital role in this Province; again, another part of the overall budget that we have to take more seriously and certainly put more money into.

I am glad to hear some comments from the minister on the investments that are being made in education in the Province. Indeed, it is something that we need to continue investing in. We also have to make sure that we invest our money wisely and that we manage the people's money to the best of our ability. I guess that is vitally important here and certainly raises a concern as to whether exactly the money is being spent in the proper way.

I would certainly like to make a comment, if I could, on something that concerns many people in my district: the news today that the ambulance operators from across the Province have hopefully come to an agreement over the weekend on how to disburse the extra monies they got in this year's Budget. Hopefully it will address some of the concerns that ambulance operators have had.

I know in my own district, ambulance operators have touched base with me and certainly expressed the concern they have in relation to the fact of trying to keep their operations going. Indeed, with the high cost of gas and oil and maintaining their vehicle, this money was something they needed. Whether it is enough to do the job, whether it is enough to provide the service that people require in the Province, I guess only time will tell. Certainly, in most people's view, it is not enough but it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, the ambulance operators and the people representing the ambulance operators throughout the Province will take this back to their memberships.

My understanding is that they hope to have an agreement with the three sections of the ambulance operators in the Province. Some of the ambulance operators are not too pleased with the minister, and I understand that. Why should they be? The minister tells them one thing and then the bureaucrats tell them something else. What it does is, it causes an immense amount of confusion out there among the public. The ambulance operators are confused. The minister tells us in a closed door meeting that everything is going to be okay, not to worry, money will be coming forward. Then, when they go back to the bureaucrats and ask the bureaucrats, they say: Well, the minister should not have told you that. We don't have that type of financial resources here within the department so the minister shouldn't have told you. I said to the ambulance operators: Are you sure what the minister said? They said: Yes, he look right across the table at us and laid the millions of dollars on the table, no questions asked. No worry about it. Everything is going to be taken care of. I'm the new minister, I'm in charge here now, I'm running the show.

Then when they sit down to do the details with the bureaucrats, they are told that not necessarily all the money is there. Therefore we have a major amount of confusion around the Province. Therefore we have private ambulance operators plus community ambulance operators throughout the Province putting forward that they may be withdrawing their services to the general public, which causes a concern, I'm sure, for every Member of the House of Assembly, and for everybody in the Province, because you know how vital an ambulance service is to the Province. To see the possibility that some of these services may be withdrawn causes concern. Hopefully over the past weekend now this concern had been addressed and private ambulance and community based ambulance operators will all be served well. Hopefully, the Minister of Health and Community Services certainly won't close the door to future negotiations with these operators because, as I said, it is of vital importance here.

On the other side, the number one priority in the Province, bar none, is health care. It is something that affects every family in the Province sometime or another. Really, people are questioning whether we are spending the money wisely, whether we are managing the people's dollars in the best sense. That is why when the new Minister of Health and Community Services came on the scene people hoped that some of the concerns that had been raised over the past few months through many members of the Opposition, and indeed the health care critic for Ferryland - who has done a superb job in raising the concerns of people throughout the Province in relation to health care - will be addressed, and that the new Minister of Health and Community Services will put his money where his mouth is and eventually try to address some of the concerns that we have.

What are the concerns we have? Let's look at what the concerns are. During Christmas - it is not something that I was happy to do, but I had no choice - my own mother was in the Health Sciences from December 6 to January 7,and I spent an incredible amount of time back and forth at the hospital. I saw some of the concerns that are raised here by the health care critic, and indeed those of other people through the different media we have here in the Province, first-hand. There is no doubt about it, you don't have to be an Einstein to see that nurses and other staff within the hospital, who are working on a day-to-day basis, are stressed out. They are stressed to the limit. They are overworked, and as has been said in the House on many occasion, they are underpaid. In many cases, we are competing with other jurisdictions that are offering better incentives. We have our own Minister of Health and Community Services who comes out and offers them $3,000 to stay within the Province and go out and practice in rural Newfoundland.

I would say the Minister of Health and Community Services must have his head screwed on wrong to even think we are going to be able to compete with people outside this jurisdiction, and we only offer them $3,000. Our nurses are a vital part of the health care system. The licensed practical nurses are a vital part of the health care system. Our doctors and all our staff are vital parts, and all need to be compensated for the work they do and the services they provide. I don't think they are being compensated properly. This causes major stress, not only to the employees of the health care system, but indeed on the families they are there to assist.

I can remember in on the floor my mother - God be good to her - was lying back in the bed, not causing too many problems or concerns for the staff there - she is a very quiet lady - almost all the time she was at the hospital she was lucky enough - and I stress the word, lucky - to have a family member by her side, or within the room, whatever the case may be, and certainly lucky enough to have someone who could provide some of the extra services she wanted.

The problem is that there is not enough staff in the hospitals that we have. Therefore they are stressed out trying to provide an important service to the people who are there, and they find it very difficult to do that based on the work load that they have and based on the pressures that are before them on a day-to-day basis.

I talked to many people that are on staff, especially at the Health Sciences, because that is where we were most of the time, down in the emergency wards and throughout the hospital. Everybody expressed the same concern about the amount of work they had, not enough staff, and that indeed, the level of stress that comes with the job now, based on these other factors, is becoming insurmountable in some cases. It is something that needs to be addressed and quickly, hopefully over the next little while.

We sit down here day after day and hear a litany of ministers' announcements announcing the great things happening within the Province. There is no doubt about it, there are some positive things happening within our Province. Our gross domestic product is rising. At the same time, we have a problem where we cannot provide the services that people need in our health care system. Then we come to the Budget. The Budget was brought forward for the health of our people and for the health of our economy, and then we have all of these concerns that are raised.

If I could say this, my own District of Placentia & St. Mary's certainly has some health care concerns. I would like to start and just run through a couple that have been raised with me and, indeed, not only with me, but through the media in the Province over the past couple of months, for that matter, since I have been elected.

Certainly one that is of the major importance is a doctor in the community of St. Mary's to serve that area. The people of the area have been dealing now with locums. They have been dealing with doctors who have come and gone. We had a serious situation down there. It has been softened but not been dealt with. These people are very concerned. I say to the Minister of Health and Community Services that I hope to sit and discuss this after the House closes this week in some more detail to try to solve the problem that is existing in St. Mary's. It has been going on for way too long. The people down in St. Mary's deserve the services of a doctor in that area. There is a pharmacy there that needs to be able to survive to provide the medications that the people need. Many people now have to travel to St. John's when the doctor is not in the area just to get their blood pressure checked, in some cases. This is costing government money through ambulance services or whatever the case may be.

The people in the communities of St. Mary's Bay deserve the services of a doctor, they deserve the attention of the Minister of Health and Community Services on this issue and they deserve to have that problem solved so they can get on with their lives. That extra worry, especially out in the communities that I represent in St. Mary's Bay, is like the worry in many communities throughout the Province. There is an aging population and many people with health problems. Just to be able to go to bed at night in St. Mary's and to know that you have a doctor within that community if there is a need to call upon the services of that doctor, that they would be there, would be great. For the people down in that area it creates an immense amount of stress to know that there may not be a doctor if the need comes at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Therefore, I certainly call upon the Minister of Health and Community Services today to take the issue of a doctor in St. Mary's, address it, and solve it as soon as possible for the people of that area. Without a doubt in my mind, the people need that addressed.

Further up the Bay, in the Mount Carmel area, there was a doctor's service, and there was a pharmacy. The pharmacy has had to close out. I met with the Mount Carmel council back earlier this year and certainly a concern was raised there about the service of a doctor and the service of an ambulance for that area, and many other concerns. You travel through Admiral's Beach right over to North Harbour, and many communities are without the direct services there now. It certainly creates some concern: again, an aging population, and something that needs to be addressed.

Out on the Cape Shore area, I guess, we have been doing very well in regards to health services. We are in close proximity to Placentia, which has the Placentia Health Centre, which certainly takes care of most of the concerns that people have. Again, there is travel involved but not to the extent of some of the other communities that are in St. Mary's Bay. These are some things that need to be addressed and certainly that we hope to have looked at.

With regards to Placentia, I talked to a doctor there a few days ago who raised some concerns with me about some of the health care issues in that area. Something that needs to be addressed is that over the next few weeks the issues related to the people of Placentia & St. Mary's would be addressed in the proper forum. I will be working on putting that together pretty soon. That is something that we will be looking at and certainly hoping to involve the people in. I will be calling upon the people within the District of Placentia & St. Mary's to come forward and partake in the forum and to ensure that the message is brought forward through the forums or brought forward to the people who will make the decision on health care services for the area.

It is going to be very important that the people of the District of Placentia & St. Mary's have the opportunity to express their concerns about the health care system and have the opportunity to have some of their concerns addressed in the proper way. Hopefully, through this format, I will be able, being the representative here, to bring their concerns back to the House of Assembly, back to the minister, back to the decision makers. Hopefully some of these concerns will be addressed. I will be looking forward to working on that over the next little while.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I'm very glad to see that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is alive and well after a very busy weekend.

I'm very pleased to be able to make a few remarks on the health care system and, I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, it is great to see you are listening. It is great to see that he is listening and in tune because I may have to call upon his assistance in addressing some of the concerns that are in my district. I know from information that I had that he had hoped to address some of the concerns in health care in my district. From a telephone call that my friend received a few weeks ago, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation was hoping to address some of the concerns in Placentia & St. Mary's through a possible candidacy in St. John's West.

My friend got a call out in the district and he wanted to know: If the election was held tomorrow, who would you vote for? Would you vote for Loyola Hearn for the Progressive Conservative Party or would you vote for Chuck Furey for the Liberals? Here is a friend of mine sitting home, after being out on the road all day, who at 9:15 p.m. gets a telephone call from a company that is conducting a poll. I am close enough to the PC candidate in St. John's West to know that he wasn't conducting a poll. Here we have the question being asked at 9:15 p.m. in a St. Mary's Bay community: Would you support Loyola Hearn as a Progressive Conservative candidate or would you support Chuck Furey as the Liberal candidate for St. John's West?

Lo and behold, there were no other candidates lined up. None of these other shining knights in armour were lined up. It was Mr. Furey, because he lives on Waterford Bridge Road, he's in St. John's West. He felt pretty well. Certainly I say he felt that he could take the Liberal banner and ride in St. John's West and ride roughshod over them the way he does on the Northern Peninsula. He was told point blank in the poll not to get up on the horse. He was told point blank in the poll to stay on the ground, not to get up on the horse, because he wasn't getting anywhere in St. John's West. He could ride roughshod over the crowd on the Northern Peninsula when he felt like it but it wasn't going to work in St. John's West. He spent his money wisely, I say. He could have gone out and spent it in an election campaign but he didn't, he did the poll first. At 9:15 p.m. on a Thursday night the phone of a good friend of mine down in a community in St. Mary's Bay rang, and he heard: Good evening, sir. How are you doing? Preliminary questions. Then the question comes up: Would you support Loyola Hearn as a PC candidate in St. John's West or Chuck Furey as the Liberal candidate in St. John's West?

AN HON. MEMBER: Did that happen?

MR. MANNING: Yes, sir, in St. Mary's Bay. My friend said: I'm sorry, I'm supporting Loyola Hearn.

I would think, from what I can understand, as the telephone calls went around the district, that he got a lot of Loyola Hearns because whatever happened - I mean, he didn't ask about the other, like I said before, shining knights in armour that are running. He did not ask anything about them. He only asked specifically one or two: Do you, yes or no - Chuck or Loyola? Loyola or Chuck, whatever way it went, I am not sure, but I know it was only these two people (inaudible).

From the information that I have, when it was tallied up, it was give or take 20 per cent that were not a factor, that did not have their mind made up. There was 55 per cent - I am going ahead of my story now - that were supporting Loyola Hearn and 25 per cent supporting Chuck. Therefore, Chuck said: There is my $5,000 gone on the poll. He called it quits, would not get up on the horse. I will stay where I am.

Because, you see, up on the Northern Peninsula where the member has been a member now for quite some time, he could go up there and move around with these people and they have been used to the liberalism for a while now. He could ride roughshod over them. When he did the poll in St. John's West, he was told not to even get up on the horse, to stay on the ground, stay where he was; you are wasting your money. Then we sit back and we have the hon. member decide: Well, I am going to throw my support behind who?

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. MANNING: Who? Who am I going to throw my support behind? The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation has one of four people to support in St. John's West. Now, would he support a former Cabinet colleague, Mr. Murphy? A fine man, Mr. Murphy. I have known him quite some time. I spent some time here in the House, from1993 to1996, with him. Would the Minister of Tourism support Mr. Murphy? Would the Minister of Tourism support another former MHA, the former Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, the great district that I represent at the present time, Mr. Speaker?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Why he is not here, the people of Placentia & St. Mary's have to answer that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. MANNING: Would he support the former Member for Placentia & St. Mary's, Mr. Sparrow? Would he support the Deputy Mayor of Mount Pearl, who was not sure what party he was running for but when he got it nailed down found out it was the Liberal Party -

AN HON. MEMBER: How did he decide that?

MR. MANNING: Well, a few phone calls here and a few phone calls there, and a bit of pressure here. That is how it works -

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. MANNING: From that side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

Anyway, would he support Mr. Kent, the Deputy Mayor -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, you took long enough to make up yours -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: - and I wouldn't say he still has it made up. Then he wondered, would the Minister of Tourism be supporting the Deputy Mayor of Mount Pearl?

There is another candidate, then. I turned on the news last week. Someone said she was in Calgary, someone said she was in Vancouver, someone said she was in Toronto, someone said she was on Waterford Bridge Road, but we found out the former MP for St. John's West was going to take a shot at it again, and that was Mrs. Payne. Jean Payne was going to come back to run for the nomination.

Then I went back through my memory and checked things out. I know for sure, without a doubt in my mind, that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is not supporting - is not supporting - the former MP for St. John's West. I know that without a doubt in my mind. I know for the simple reason that she passed a comment one day. I know for sure that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is not supporting the former MP for St. John's West for the nomination. I know that for sure.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: The former MP, Ms Payne, is running for the nomination.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, I know he is not supporting her because she said something negative in the public eye about him one day.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Oh, yes. If we go back now and check things out, if we go back to a news story a few years ago, I can remember watching the TV one evening and Ms Payne was being interviewed. You know, she said, Mr. Furey must not understand what my schedule is like. She said he is only a Cabinet minister in the provincial government. I am the MP for St. John's West. So, she said, he must not understand what my schedule is like.

That is what she said. I have a good memory, and I remember everything and anything that I want to remember.

I remember the Minister of Tourism being very agitated the next day in the House about that comment, being very agitated for a couple of weeks after that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, I was, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, I took a little time just to gather the things around -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, not to worry, Mr. Speaker. I always say the people decide. At least I had the stomach to put the name on the ballot and to run and let the people decide, something that the Minister of Tourism did not have the stomach to do in St. John's West. He didn't have it, he didn't have it within here, I say Mr. Speaker, he didn't have it within here to put his name on the ballot for St. John's West.

The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation carried out a poll - it cost several thousand dollars to do a proper poll, Mr. Speaker - and he didn't have the stomach to put his name on the ballot in St. John's West.

Now, I want to get back to the nomination. Anyway, I know for sure he is not supporting Ms Payne. I know for sure, Mr. Speaker, he is not supporting the former Minister of Labour, because the former Minister of Labour got a few phone calls from that side of the House over the past few weeks asking him not to get into the race, to get out of the race. When he was in here, they never pushed Mr. Murphy around and they are not going to be pushing him around now.

MR. SULLIVAN: The Premier said their polls showed the Liberals were ahead in St. John's West.

MR. MANNING: Yes, I know.

MR. NOEL: Who is going to be the Liberal candidate?

MR. MANNING: The Liberal candidate, I would -

MR. FRENCH: Who cares!

MR. MANNING: It doesn't matter, he is coming in third anyway in the election. We don't care about the -

AN HON. MEMBER: Third?

MR. MANNING: The Liberal candidate will come in third in the election.

MR. NOEL: And is Loyola going to come second?

MR. MANNING: No, no! We don't play for second, we play for first.

MR. NOEL: Who is going to come in second?

MR. MANNING: The NDP will come in second.

MR. NOEL: Greg Malone.

MR. MANNING: Greg Malone will come in second.

MR. SULLIVAN: A close battle for second.

MR. MANNING: It is going to be a close battle for second, I would say, Mr. Speaker, but I think the NDP candidate in St. John's West will be a distant second, but he will come in second.

MR. NOEL: Tell us who the Liberal candidate is going to be now..

MR. MANNING: It doesn't matter, because if the Liberal Party - I think Mr. Murphy is going to be your Liberal candidate after tomorrow night. If the Liberal Party thought that they had a chance at St. John's West neither one of them would be running, neither one of them. They would not be allowed to run. If St. John's West looked good for the Liberal Party in this federal election, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation's name would be on the ballot, but it is not on the ballot because it didn't look good.

Mr. Murphy was the first person out in the race, there are other people coming up behind, and I think when it is all said and done that Mr. Murphy will be the Liberal candidate. He is going to come in third in the election, Mr. Malone is going to come in a distant second, and Mr. Hearn is going to be the victor.

MR. NOEL: You should be supporting (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Why?

MR. NOEL: Because he is from your area.

MR. MANNING: Yes, and I understand where you are coming from. I thought about that this morning because here you have Mr. Sparrow running from Placentia and some people say I should be supporting him. So I flicked on my radio this morning and, sure enough, the ad came on, Anthony himself, Mr. Sparrow: Vote for me for the Liberal nomination. Right? This in Dunville now, I say to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Then, seconds after that, on comes the former minister from that side of the House, Mr. Hogan, who is supporting Mr. Murphy. Now, they can't get their own backyard together, so they are expecting me to support him and I am on the other side of the fence. They can't get it together in their own backyard. At least we are home in our own backyard. We might box it out in our own backyard, but when we go outside the fence we are all together. They can't even get together outside the fence or inside the fence. They cannot get it together, I say, Mr. Speaker.

So, here you have Mr. Hogan, the Major of Placentia, a former minister in the Liberal government, supporting Tom Murphy, and you have Mr. Sparrow from his own home town of Dunville who cannot even get the Mayor of Placentia to support him.

MR. DICKS: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: All I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy is, I know where I stood. I stood there day one, I stood there the final day. I know where I stood. I can tell you one thing, that the (inaudible) will have nothing on over there in the next year or so, nothing.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, Sir! We had a good, good solid -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation are awake.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where do you stand?

MR. MANNING: Where did I stand? I was on my feet. I supported the Opposition House Leader. I supported him from day one. I was not wavering on my support, I say to the minister.

I ask the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, who is he supporting for the Liberal candidacy in St. John's West? I am asking you, are you still on Waterford Bridge Road? It is in your district. You are a Liberal Cabinet minister, right?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Who are you supporting in St. John's West? Come on now, who?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: You live in the east now? I cannot keep track of where the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is living these days. Where are you this week? Are you in the east or the west?

MR. FUREY: East.

MR. MANNING: East. I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation: Are you supporting Loyola Hearn in St. John's West?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: You are absolutely supporting Loyola? I am very pleased to see that. I am very pleased to see that your thinking cap is on, I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

You question us on our loyalty over here, and then the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs questioned me on whether I am supporting someone for my district. Like I said, this side of the House, we can handle our own affairs; it is that side of the House I am very concerned about.

It is interesting to see that at least there is some interest being developed in regard to the by-election in St. John's West. Yesterday, I was very pleased to see the news release from the Prime Minister's office calling the election. The people of St. John's West deserve to have someone in the House of Commons who understands the district, who knows the concerns of the district, who has the experience to deal with the concerns and the issues of St. John's West. I think that person is there, he is carrying the Tory banner in this election, and that is Loyola Hearn. I think, after May 15, I believe it is, that we are going to see that when Mr. Hearn begins to represent the people of St. John's West.

I would like to get back, if I could. I am sorry when I get carried away. I am sure you understand from your days in the back benches, now that you are elevated up to the high chair, you understand that I get carried away sometimes in conversation. In the position that you are in now, I will have to leave that for another day - some day that you are not in the position that you are in at the present time in the House.

I would like to get back to a few of the concerns that are certainly out in my district. I touched on most of the health care issues that I could, but we certainly have some concerns. The Member for Baie Verte was up on his feet today asking some questions and raising some issues in his district as it relates to road construction. Definitely, I would like to touch on these for a minute, if I could. There is no doubt about it, that extra money is needed.

In 1989, in the last year of the Peckford administration, the provincial roads program for Newfoundland and Labrador was over $40 million. This year it is around $17 million in a time when our economy is supposed to be doing so well, in a time when our gross domestic product is supposed to be high, in a time when all revenues to the Province are larger and greater than what they were back in 1989, we can only find less than 50 per cent of what we spent in 1989 being spent on provincial roads in the Province.

It certainly creates a problem for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, there is no doubt about that. When you have the kilometers of roads that are in this Province that have to be addressed with less than $17 million from the provincial roads program, it certainly creates some grave concerns.

Down in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's is no different than anywhere else. There is concern with the road between the St. Joseph's highway depot down to Riverhead. There is concern with the roads out between Branch and St. Bride's. There is concern with roads in on the Cape Shore road. There is concern with roads in around Placentia. It is certainly a concern that has been raised time and time again by the people of the district, a road that more or less is reflected to as the Colinet road. It is a road that is used by many people throughout my district, people from North Harbour and Mount Carmel and that area who travel to Placentia, and people from Placentia who travel to St. John's and so on and so forth.

I have met with the minister and discussed on several occasions the concerns of the people in relation to the Colinet road. Hopefully we will see some of this addressed and somewhere along the line funding may be made available to put toward the Colinet road. The Colinet Road is a vital road in Placentia & St. Mary's. It is vital for health services. It is vital for banking services. It is vital for our growing tourism industry. It is vital for many reasons. Certainly funding needs to be put in place to begin this road. We understand that it is around a $7 million or $8 million job to complete the whole highway, to bring it up to pavement. We understand that is not exactly possible under the present restraints of the provincial roads program, but if we could start the ball rolling on that we might be able to do something over the next few years and work on it together to bring that road up to standard. It is the year 2000. In all honesty, in the year 2000 people should not have to be driving on a road such as the Colinet Road is at the present time.

Hopefully over the next little while, together with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, I can bring forward some of these concerns and that they will be addressed by the minister through putting forward some funding to begin some of the work. There are four bridges that need to be repaired and brought up to standard on that road. If funding could come for one of these bridges to just begin the ball rolling, that would be great. Not have any long-term commitment, for I understand the minister can't give a long-term commitment to the road, but if we could see funding come forward in some way, shape or form to at least get the ball rolling, to at least address some of the concerns that people have, then people would feel at least that there is something being done. Hopefully over the next little while we will see that. As I said before, the Colinet Road is a vital road in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's. It needs to be addressed and hopefully it will be over the next little while.

In regards to other things that are happening in the district, there are certainly some grave concerns in relation to the fishery. Even though most of the fishery regulations and decisions are made on the federal level, there is no doubt about it, that the fishery is a vital concern for the people of Placentia & St. Mary's. The quota cuts in 3PS from 30,000 tonnes down to 20,000 tonnes this year certainly have created some concern for the people who make a living from the sea, and the families and the communities who depend upon this very rich resource.

We are expecting some day this week now to have the announcements for the crab quotas. Again, there is going to be some concern raised in relation to them and how much they are going to affect the people in the communities of the district. The fishing industry is, without a doubt, the most vital industry in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's and something we need to make sure is managed properly. For many years we have seen the fishery managed by people from outside this Province. Indeed, the real scientists are the people who are in the boats, the real scientists are the fishermen themselves. It is about time that governments on all levels, and people at all levels of decision making, listened to the people who are out in the boats every day and who see firsthand the state of the stocks, see firsthand the concern and the issues that are there. Hopefully over the next little while we will be able to manage our fishery, manage the resource that has provided to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians for the past 500 years. Hopefully some of these concerns will be addressed.

Many people in my district depend upon the fishery, depend upon what comes from the water, for a living. Many communities depend on it. I looked down in St. Mary's last year where the fish plant didn't operate to its full potential. It has created major havoc in that community, major problems trying to find some type of job creation programs in the fall of the year to assist people. It is not the answer when we have a fish plant, when we have a resource and when we have a workforce. It is only a matter of putting the ingredients together and creating what needs to be done in those communities. Hopefully these issues will be addressed over the next little while and that we will come to see how important this resource is.

There is no doubt about it that I would be remiss if I sat down without having brought up the concern the people have with the Voisey's Bay development and what it means to the people in District of Placentia & St. Mary's. It is something that we hoped to have an agreement on before Christmas and there wasn't one. There is a group now that just met with people at Voisey's Bay Nickel. I think they are hoping to plan a meeting with the Premier or some members of the government to address some of the concerns of the people and see if there is any way we can reach a solution, if there is any way we can come to a final agreement to get that development off the ground, certainly to create not only jobs in my district that are very important, but indeed to create the economic push throughout the Province that we need and which will come from the development of Voisey's Bay. That is something that we all look forward to.

While we understand fully that we cannot give away the shop, we also understand that if we are not talking to each other we are not making any headway. Therefore we have to try to get back to the table, sit down, discuss the issues and concerns, address the concerns of both parties, and see if we can find a solution that not only benefits the companies, not only benefits the government of the day, but indeed benefits the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. I guess that is certainly one of the major riding issues in the district that needs to be addressed and needs to be addressed soon.

There is no doubt about it, there are many issues and many concerns, not only in my district. Out-migration is a continual problem. It is a concern that has been raising its ugly head for many years now. Many people have left my district and traveled to other parts of the country. I have a sister who lives in Port Coquitlam, British Columbia. I have a brother who lives in Fort McMurray. I have a sister who lives in Goose Bay. I know many families who have family and friends alike all over the country, all over the continent for that matter, who are going away and have no choice but to go away, for the simple reason that the concerns out there now are not being addressed in the proper way by this government. Therefore, they need to be addressed.

I would just like to say that all these concerns need to be addressed, the issues need to be addressed, and hopefully over the next little while some of them will be. There are no (inaudible) overriding concerns. Certainly health care is something that affects everybody. It seems to be the main concern of the people in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's. People throughout the district have raised the health care issue with me. As I said earlier in my remarks, I hope to be addressing this issue over the next little while and bring in the concerns of the people of Placentia & St. Mary's. I am hoping to put together a forum in my district where people will be able to come out and put forward their concerns in relation to health care, and maybe we can, in some way, put a plan in place to address the concerns that are in Placentia & St. Mary's. They are not unlike many concerns that are in other parts of the Province, but indeed concerns that are unique to Placentia & St. Mary's and try to get at least a plan to get our own backyard straightened out. Then hopefully we will be able to bring that back to the Minister of Health and Community Services and maybe some of these issues and concerns will be addressed. I'm looking forward to those forums. I have contacted people within my district who will be taking part in those forums with me. Through these forums that we are going to be having the people will come out and voice their concerns, because many people have issues and concerns that are not really addressed in the proper manner. A lot of times they talk to people who are not really taking those concerns seriously.

So through these public health forums we are going to be having in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's these concerns will be brought forward by the people. These concerns will be brought forward by the family members who are being affected by the health care system in this Province. These ideas and suggestions will be brought forward by the people who have experienced the health care system in this Province, will be brought forward in the proper manner, and will be hopefully addressed in a proper manner. We will then bring those concerns and issues in a report to the Minister of Health and Community Services, and hopefully we will get some of these issues and concerns looked upon, and hopefully some improvements made too.

I guess if we can do that through the forms we will be very pleased. I certainly will be very pleased as the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's. Because many times you go around and get the individual concerns, but I am hoping, through a collective way, to bring forward the concerns that these people have.

I'm very pleased today to have had the opportunity to bring forward the concerns and issues in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's. Hopefully over the next little while some of these issues and concerns I have raised here today will be addressed by the minister opposite. Hopefully we can all work together to improve the lives and, I guess, the communities of the people of Placentia & St. Mary's, and not only the people of Placentia & St. Mary's but indeed the people of the Province. I look forward to the opportunity to stand again in the House and bringing through the concerns of the people.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I must compliment the member who just spoke. I waited a fair length of time to see if somebody from the government's side was going to get up and participate in the debate, but as usually happens, one of the ministers spoke this afternoon, but we haven't had a single representative from that side of the House get up at all. The entire burden -

MR. MATTHEWS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: I was about to rise in my place to have few words on the Budget, but the nimble and quick to his feet the hon. Member for Waterford Valley rose, and I am glad to defer to him. The other thing, too, is that in as much as my Estimates are scheduled for tonight in the House, and in as much as I will need all the energy and the reserve to answer questions being put tonight by the hon. Member for Waterford Valley, rather than ask for him to defer to me, I will further defer to him. Be it assured, I will be speaking in the debate, and you will be greatly, further and significantly enlightened once I give you ten minutes of the considerable volume of good news that is contained within the covers of this here book. It is loaded, dripping with red Liberal largesse for the benefit of the people of the Province. I can't wait.

MR. SPEAKER: No point of order.

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I see that the minister has a rather dark complexion today and I have been wondering how he came about that. I just realized that yesterday there was an article in The Telegram, "20 Questions." I know now why he got it. It was really a sunny day yesterday, so the Minister of Finance went all around the area of Cowan Heights to every little corner store buying up the paper. He got this real dark sunburn complexion from going out and buying up all those papers to send to all of his family and friends and all that kind of thing. I actually have to say to the minister I rather enjoyed the article. It let me know a little bit about him, now that he is now back on the same floor of the Confederation Building that he started on in 1960 when he left school.

I want to have a few comments on the Budget. I was saying before I was interrupted by the minister what a fine job the Member for the Placentia & St. Mary's had done in bringing forward the concerns of his district. This is an opportunity in the House for members to bring forward the concerns they have in their district, plus, of course, the concerns they have in their various responsibilities they carry relative to their critic role. I did make note that very few from the government's side were taking advantage of the opportunity to get up and to defend the Budget. I had expected by this time that there would be a fair number of backbenchers, I say to the Minister of Finance, debating. The people who want to be in Cabinet, you think they would have been up by this time praising up the minister and the Budget that he so ably presented, in his opinion at least.

Mr. Speaker, I was saying the other day in debate that when we opened this session, we opened it with great promise. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor came in and said that everything was going to be just fine. His Honour read the Speech from the Throne, but of course we know it was written by the Premier in consultation with his Cabinet colleagues. What His Honour had said is contained as well in the Budget address; because if you will recall the Minister of Finance, when he was giving his Budget in his economic review statement, mentions that everything is going to be quite good in Newfoundland and Labrador.

In fact, on page ten, there is a whole section called For The Good Of Our People. I cannot help but ask, when you say things like everything is looking well and you are stabilizing health board budgets, and you are meeting the needs for health care facilities, and your priority is in health care - in fact, the Budget statement says: Our Record of Putting Health Care First.

If this government is so proud of their record, then why has the Member for Ferryland been asking all of those questions? When you look at the Budget, it says: Our Record of Putting Health Care First.

We believe, on this side, it is very poor record. That is why we are here today debating these matters in the House of Assembly, because if you look at the deficits that have been incurred by the health care boards, deficits that were first brought to light by the Member for Ferryland when he noted that the boards are now some tens of millions of dollars in debt, really the extra money being put in this year in health care is only to stabilize the expenditures that have already occurred. When we talk about the extra money coming in from Ottawa by way of transfer payments, we are only saying that we are going to get enough money from Ottawa so that we can stabilize the deficits that have already been incurred by the hospital boards.

We have the minister talking about meeting the needs for equipment. If this government is meetings the needs for equipment then why do we have health care boards saying they have many more needs than they are able to get fulfilled by way of the need for extra equipment?

We recognize that the government cannot do everything, but it seems as if every organization that is out there in the Province today is out trying to raise money to buy hospital equipment. If this government was really committed to new technologies, they would be putting a lot more money into equipment that could save dollars in the long run.

Why would my colleague from Ferryland be up saying there are people who are waiting for diagnostic tests, and have been waiting for six months or a year and sometimes longer than that? In fact, I remember a comment made by my good friend, the Member for St. John's West, a few days ago in the House when she said that a diagnostic procedure that she wanted to have was scheduled for well over a year before she was able to get that procedure.

Mr. Speaker, if all was so well, the priority is on health care, then why do we have difficulty being able to keep and retain doctors in rural Newfoundland? Why do we have a situation which is developing now whereby there is a substantive debate going on between the minister and the Newfoundland Medical Association as to what the rate of pay will be for doctors who practice in rural Newfoundland?

I was shocked the other day when the Minister of Health, in a bulldozing kind of way, said that, well, he would correct it. He unilaterally made a decision last year and if he didn't get his own way in negotiations with the doctors then he would reverse that decision or he would make some dramatic changes that would certainly not be helpful in terms of delivering health care to rural Newfoundland. The Member for Ferryland of course, has brought all of these matters forcefully to the House of Assembly.

Then we were looking at health care and, if everything is so good and rosy, why did we have all those nurses in here last spring? Nurses are still not a very happy bunch. I notice that there are still a lot of licence plates around this Province saying that nurses will remember. We hope they do remember. They were not treated very well by this government last year. I know there are members on the government side who were embarrassed by the actions that were forced upon them by the Cabinet and the leadership of the government, but the reality is that all of them, right to a person, stood in their place and voted to force nurses back to work.

When you hear these kinds of things, you wonder why the Minister of Finance would put into the Budget a statement that said something like, on page 10: Our Record of Putting Health Care First.

It is all premised on everything they do is for the good of the people. What people? We have to ask the question: Where are the people that this government is supposed to be serving? Is it the people who waited for six months for an MRI? Is it the people out there who have to rely on family and friends to make sure they are getting the kind of supplemental care that they need while they are in hospital? We have to ask ourselves where the real priorities are.

I wanted to comment as well on a few other issues. I commented the other day on some of the issues relative to teachers in the Province. I talked to a teacher just over the weekend who was telling me about the difficulties they are encountering in their school system. It never ceases to amaze me how we can put all the resources in the schools but the number of problems still seem to be almost inexhaustible. Parents are talking about the real quality of education. There is not enough support for special needs children. The integration process that we brought in some years ago of integrating challenging needs children into the school system is indeed a very commendable program but it requires a lot of support. Teachers are not very happy with this government's performances.

Then we have the social workers, and we all know of social workers who tell us that their caseloads are extremely high. They have had great difficulties for many, many months and years now in trying to make sure that they are treated properly, because if they are not treated properly then what will happen is that their clientele will not get the kind of attention that they deserve.

Then we have the people who had to move out of Newfoundland and Labrador altogether, the people who have had to move out to get jobs. Just the other day I was speaking in the House and commenting on the situation on the Burin Peninsula where the attitude of this government towards the Burin Peninsula is absolutely atrocious. It was the current Minister of Education who signed and negotiated, and at one point was very proud to say that she was part of that system whereby government divested itself of the Marystown Shipyard.

The people in Marystown tell me that they are not very happy nowadays; first of all because the contract which they were led to believe was in place between Friede Goldman and the government was altered. Why would the Minister of Education go to Marystown, meet with the shipyard members, Local 20 of the shipyards union, and tell them that the contract would provide for a guarantee that no equipment would move, that everything would stay in place, but yet when the contract was signed it did not include that particular provision? The people in Marystown and the people on all of the Burin Peninsula feel very betrayed. In fact, if you look back since 1989, since the Liberals came into power, they have maintained this all the way through. The last eleven years for the Burin Peninsula have been nothing but management of decline. The population is down; the number of jobs are down on the Burin Peninsula. The Shipyard, which at one point would have had nearly 1,000 people employed there, counting the Cow Head facility, is now down to - when this contract they are doing now is gone, there will be six unionized people working at the Marystown Shipyard. These six will all be doing security. Consequently, if you are looking at the situation from the point of view of the people on the Burin Peninsula, you would have to say that this government has not been very kind to the people in that part of Newfoundland and Labrador.

That is why, when the Minister of Education was in her district a little while ago in Grand Bank, she needed to have a police guard come in. It was one of the few times that a member needed to have the RCMP present at a meeting that she was having with her constituents. That certainly is not gone unnoticed on the Burin Peninsula. That shows the kind of reception the Liberal members are getting on the Burin Peninsula, because the people up there feel they have been very dramatically betrayed and let down.

I spoke the other day as well about post-secondary debts. I don't see anything in this Budget helping out our post-secondary students. We all know of students who have incurred tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and we know that imposes a great difficulty on them in terms of their ability to get on with their lives. Post-secondary students who have $40,000 and $50,000 in debt are hindered and hampered in their ability to be able to move forward with their lives. That is not to say that individuals should not carry some responsibility for their post-secondary education.

The present government in Newfoundland and the present government in Ottawa haven't been very forthcoming in trying to address the situation facing students in Newfoundland and Labrador. Therefore we want to say this about this Budget: It is premised on what His Honour the Lieutenant Governor said. He talked about how the plan was working. We think the problems are so overwhelming that it couldn't have been the people we talked to. It couldn't have been the people I spoke to the other day, who told me they had to go to food banks. It couldn't be the parents of the children who have to go to school in the hope that they would have a breakfast program in their school.

I want to note as well that there are many families who are relying on the food banks, relying on school lunch programs, relying on charity. When we say the plan is working, we have to say, for whom? Not for the people leaving Newfoundland and Labrador, not for the nurses, not for the teachers, not for the social workers, not for the people who are seniors, trying to live in their house, with the kind of conditions they have, with leaking roofs, and windows where the wind blows in through one side and out through the other. The plan is certainly not working for these.

While we recognize there may be some people happy with the Budget, the people I have referred to are not very pleased. We on this side of the House do not take any comfort in listening to these long-winded addresses by either His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor - I know it is not his fault because he merely reads what is given to him to read - but when we have a long-winded budget like this Budget here, it went on for an hour-and-a-half, and we hear that there are supposed to be all kinds of good news in the Budget, we on this side have gone through looking for the good news and we haven't been able to find very much to compliment the government on.

Mr. Speaker, my good friend, the Member for Cape St. Francis, is telling me that there is a need for us to be persistent, a need for us to be consistent. He gave a wonderful address the other day in reply to the Budget, and I think he made a new record for continuous dialogue. It beat the one that I had made last year, which was four-and-a-half hours. I think Neil Windsor's budget response is still on the record here for the longest reply, but my good friend would have made the record this year but for the fact he got ill and the Government House Leader wouldn't let him get back at it, so it was called; but next year, I am saying to him, when he is feeling a little better, he did not get winded, as they would say, he simply had lots to say. He was only half way through but, because of illness, he had to go and leave the House for one afternoon; but next year we promise you that he will be back. He never got a chance to talk at all about the Auditor General's report, which is something else that I could spend some time on as well.

Mr. Speaker, with these few comments, I understand my good colleague, the Member for Ferryland, is going to get up and speak, or maybe it might be the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly have a few comments on these areas, on the Social Services Committee. I think Health, Education, Human Resources and Employment, Environment and Labour, and Justice are five of the ones discussed under that.

Someone asked a question the last day I was up speaking on a very significant motion moved by the Member for Waterford Valley. Someone asked me a question: Hey, tell us about the deficit and so on. I said the deficit had increased by 40 per cent since 1989.

I went back to check to see how accurate I was, and I did reach in my file - I did not have it with me here - and I did find out that in 1989 the deficit was - the total public sector debt, not the deficit, sorry - was $4.845 billion. Today, the forecasted public sector debt is $6.672 billion. If you take that, it is - $1.8 billion on forty-eight - that is roughly, I suppose, a 40 per cent increase. Forty per cent of $4.8 billion is about $1.9 billion, so it is a 40 per cent increase in the public sector debt since 1989.

Prior to that, back in 1971, we will say, from the Smallwood government, there was a debt at that time of $1 billion up until 1972. The debt was $1 billion. So, if you took $1.8 billion since that - we said it went from $4.8 billion to almost $6.7 billion actually, $1.8-something billion, 40 per cent, and then you added that one, it is not all the debt that was incurred in 1972 to 1989. You can see that almost $3 billion of that debt was incurred during Liberal governments and about a similar amount incurred during the PC government.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: As my critic area of health, I haven't spoken on it. I say to the Deputy Government House Leader, I know he certainly would like to hear on health care how I cannot figure out how they can stand and tell us they put $137 million into health care and I open this little Estimate book here and all it shows going into health care is $31.7 million extra. I cannot see how they got $137 million from $31.7 million. It is here on page 206 in the Estimates. Last year they spent on health care $1,212,387,700 and this year it is $1,244,165,200. That is an increase of almost $31.7 million. I cannot figure out how $31.7 million grew so quickly into $136 million extra new dollars in the health care. It is not there from last year and the figures are not reflecting what is done in all the little releases and so on that accompany the Budget. It is not an accurate amount. We know that you can play with figures and statistics and give the perception that something has happened when it has not really happened. That is a little game, I guess, of the spin you want to put on things. It certainly hasn't happened.

We do know there are problems out in our health care system every single day. I was glad to hear the Minister of Education say today that we know there is going to be a shortage of teachers. It is in other parts of the country, so we are going to take action and measures now to stop that from becoming the same crisis that we allowed to happen in health care. We did allow it to happen with a lot of health care professionals, with pharmacists, vacancies. They have not had a full complement of pharmacists at the Health Care Corporation of St. John's in several years. You might say: You can get be without a pharmacist. Look, for patients getting medication and treatment they are indispensable in part of our health care system. Pardon the pun. That is the same with all our allied health care professionals. They all have an important role to play. Also with nurses.

The Minister of Education today said that she is going to prevent a shortage from occurring and being a problem. That is good, because it is a lot easier to stop the slide at the initial stages before it becomes too big a problem. I had hoped they would do it in health care. I have been saying that since I was first made critic in 1993 - I think that is when I became health critic, until 1995 - and then again this past two years. So I had an opportunity in that capacity for four years anyway to be health critic - the last two, and two earlier - and I have been saying all along that something has to be done before it becomes a problem and we let things get out of control.

Now we have a shortage of nurses. We cannot do cardiac surgeries, a full complement of fifteen a week, because we have not sufficient nurses to work in the OR and in the ICU after they go through their operations. That has caused a bottleneck in the system at that point because of shortages. It does not matter. If you have four health care professionals as a vital part of a specific type of operation and you are short one, that bottlenecks the operation and you cannot get it done even though you have all the others in place. That is what is happening in our system today. We have been penny wise and pound foolish in a lot of areas of our health care system and it has not got the result that we wanted to get.

We all know that rural Newfoundland has felt the effects basically in health care. Rural Newfoundland has been pretty well devastated in terms of health care in attracting professionals there. Now we have a problem. We are going to pay a different price to emergency room physicians in rural Newfoundland then they are getting paid. I said a year ago when it happened that if you are paying them $88 an hour in the city and $71 an hour out in rural Newfoundland we are going to have a problem. When I heard just a while ago that they are going to walk off the job as of next Monday, I said: That is nothing new. I said that back a while ago. As I probably would say: What took do long?

With it being the late hour it is and so on, and with numerous business being conducted, I know, on committees and that, I will now conclude debate, basically, I think, on Concurrence.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, we will adjourn debate on Concurrence, that is right, because the other ones have not been brought into the record yet. We have not introduced them in the House yet. The other committees are still ongoing. I will adjourn debate on the Estimates of the Social Services committee.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FUREY: He has adjourned debate.

Mr. Speaker, for the record, can we call it 5:30 p.m.? Members are now I know going to committee hearings as well.

I move that the House adjourn until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 1:30 p.m.