December 4, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 26


The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin, I would like to introduce to the Members of the House our two new pages. To my left I have Tony McDonald, who has joined us for the first time, and Sean Ryan with the Sergeant-At-Arms.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence I would like to take care of some very important housekeeping duties, and in that regard I move that Mr. Robert Mercer, the Member for the District of Humber East, be elected Deputy Speaker of this Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: According to parliamentary procedure, I certainly second that motion.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that Robert Mercer, the Member for the District of Humber East, be elected as Deputy Speaker of this Assembly.

All those in favor of the motion, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: Against.

I declare the motion carried, and that the Member for Humber East is duly elected the Deputy Speaker of this Assembly.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I also move that Ms Mary Hodder, the Member for the District of Burin- Placentia West, be elected Deputy Chairperson of the committees of this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I second that motion.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that Ms Mary Hodder, the Member for the District of Burin-Placentia West be elected as Deputy Chairperson of committees of this Assembly.

All those in favor of the motion, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: Against.

I declare the Member for Burin-Placentia West duly elected Deputy Chair of committees of this Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statement by Members


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright–L'Anse au Clair.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I stand to offer congratulations to Ms Marie Powell of Charlottetown, Labrador on receiving the Woman Entrepreneur of the Year Award for the Labrador region. This award, offered by NLOWE, Newfoundland and Labrador Organization of Women Entrepreneurs, honours women who have made a significant and successful contribution to both community and business.

Marie is the manager of B. W. Powell Limited of Charlottetown, a business started by her father and her family over fifty years ago. Marie has committed her life to business and community. Her dedication is not only seen in the business that she has helped to build but also in her volunteer contributions. She is active in the promotion of literacy and family care programs. She provides support to her church and serves as a member of the community council.

As I congratulate Marie on her success, I would also like to recognize the many other women in our Province who serve in both community and in business.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise today in this hon. House to congratulate one of my caucus colleagues on being inducted into the Newfoundland and Labrador Soccer Hall of Fame. This inductee was recognized for his contribution as a player. Mr. Eddie Joyce -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Eddie Joyce, the MHA for Bay of Islands.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SWEENEY: Before gracing us with his presence here as a Member of the House of Assembly, he was one of Corner Brook's premier soccer players. For fifteen seasons Eddie Joyce played the game he so loved with the Curling Rangers and the Corner Brook Allstars.

He was known for his aggressive performance and also his fiery competitiveness. At the Corner Brook level of competition he was a dominant force; named top scorer six times and most valuable player three times. He was also named Corner Brook's male athlete of the year in 1974. In 1976 his two-goal effort led Corner Brook to the provincial seniors championship.

Mr. Speaker, the MHA for Bay of Islands is also known for his tireless effort to promote the game of soccer he so loves; by coordinating the Corner Brook soccer program, and even being recognized by former Conservative Premier Frank Moores.

Mr. Joyce's contributions to the game of soccer are well recognized and I, on behalf of the entire House of Assembly, congratulate him on this achievement, on being inducted into the Newfoundland and Labrador Soccer Hall of Fame.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of regret that I rise to observe the recent passing of Raymond Guy, of Musgrave Harbour, who was not only a constituent but a special friend. On November 24, Mr. Guy passed away at the age of eighty-eight.

Raymond Guy contributed a great deal to this Province, as a government representative and as a public servant. Mr. Guy was a Member of the House of Assembly from 1959 to 1962, representing the District of Grand Falls. In 1964, he moved to St. John's to work with the Emergency Measures Organization and later became its director, remaining in that position until his retirement in the late 1970s.

Mr. Speaker, this record of public service alone deserves recognition; however, Mr. Guy also contributed in other ways to the communities of which he was a part: in business, community service and culture.

Prior to his involvement with the provincial government, Mr. Guy worked in a management role in the retail trade in Grand Falls for some thirty years. He also served with the Royal Navy during the Second World War and was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in 1941.

Mr. Guy was a member of a number of fraternal organizations, and served on the provincial executive of the Royal Canadian Legion. In the early 1950s, he formed and commanded the Windsor Sea Cadet Corps, an organization to serve youth and teach discipline, teamwork and dedication to task.

Mr. Guy also contributed to the cultural landscape of the Province, winning the history category of the Newfoundland Arts and Letters competition in 1971 and 1977. Mr. Speaker, the historical writing and storytelling of Mr. Guy is known across this Province.

A few years after Mr. Guy retired, his family moved to Musgrave Harbour where they became known as the gardeners of the northeast coast.

Mr. Speaker, I, on behalf of the government and people of Newfoundland and Labrador, wish to pass along condolences to the family of Raymond Guy: his wife, his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Our sympathies and best wishes, I am sure, of all of us in this House, are with Mr. Guy's family and friends as they mourn his loss.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thought the Premier was making a member's statement. I apologize.

I can only concur with the Premier's statement on Mr. Guy. We, on this side of the House, certainly want to be associated with the comments made by the Premier, and for the Speaker to send, on our behalf as well, condolences to his family on his passing.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, in our caucus, would want to be associated with the remarks of the Premier on the passing of the late Mr. Ray Guy. His contribution to this House, though brief, is perhaps less well-known than his contribution later in life as a writer, storyteller and commentator. Certainly we join in asking you, Your Honor, to send condolences to his family on behalf of all members of this hon. House.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to provide this House with a mid-year report on the economic and financial position of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Economic Performance: In 2000, the Province is expected to experience strong economic growth for the third consecutive year. Real GDP growth is on target with the budget forecast of 4.7 per cent. The economy of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has been among the country's leaders in growth for the past few years, and this year is no exception.

Strong performance is expected in the export-related industries. Oil production is anticipated to be 50 million barrels in 2000, or 37 per cent higher than in 1999. Iron ore production is up 18 per cent and newsprint shipments will approach near record levels, following the lower shipments, of course, that were recorded in 1998 and 1999. Fish landings are expected to increase in 2000, and the value of fish production will be in excess of $1 billion for the second straight year. The tourism sector continues to build on the successful promotions such as the Cabot 500 celebrations and this year's Viking events. Non-resident visitors are expected to be at a record-high level of about 415,000, topping the 400,000 mark for the first time in our history.

Recent economic indicators show that we are doing as well or better than expected in most areas. Retail sales were up 7.3 per cent from January to August of this year. Housing starts are up 10.2 per cent from January to September of 2000. Labour income has increased 6.4 per cent during the period January to July 2000, compared with the same time last year.

Employment is now expected to remain stable at the 1999 level. The employment gains made in retail trade, tourism and other service industries were offset by lower than expected employment in crab processing. This was due to lower quotas, market preferences for sections rather than meat and new mechanization lines in plants. Higher inflation rates, due to increased energy prices, will cause real personal income and real retail trade to be slightly lower than expected at budget time.

The economy and the economic outlook for the Province in 2001 remains strong. Real GDP is expected to grow by 4.3 per cent, which is in line with forecasts from the private sector. Employment gains are expected next year as the goods sector stabilizes and continued growth is seen in the service sector.

Fiscal Outlook: Mr. Speaker, while economic growth does not necessarily result in similar levels of revenue growth, I am pleased to report that overall our fiscal performance for the 2000-2001 fiscal year remains on target with our budgeted deficit of $34.7 million, which included a contingency reserve of $30 million.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Our revenues remain on target with the budget forecast. Individually, some revenues, such as royalties from the offshore, are expected to increase from our budget forecast, while others, such as gasoline tax, may decrease. Increased royalties reflect a higher than anticipated world oil price, while decreased gas tax results from the same reason; higher prices result in lower consumption. Other revenues remain stable and are expected to be on target with our budget projections.

This Province has made substantial progress over the past few years to get its fiscal house in order. This was achieved through a program of responsible fiscal management and prudent spending. We must maintain the discipline which brought us fiscal stability, and we must be vigilant to ensure we do not return to the days of unsustainable deficits. Pressures to increase spending exist and the Province will ensure these pressures are dealt with in a manner that is consistent with our ability to pay. This government will continue to maintain a balance between economic and social development initiatives to ensure that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have access to health care, employment opportunities and education.

Equalization: Equalization provides substantial benefits to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and while these funds contribute greatly to funding provincial programs such as health, education and assistance to those in need, the program can work better. Despite the promise of our natural resources, disparities exist between Newfoundland and Labrador and other provinces and the existing equalization program is not working quickly enough to reduce these disparities. We wish to be less dependent on federal transfers. We wish to catch up with other provinces. We want to see a greater share of revenues from natural resources used directly in this Province to enhance our economic prospects and provide quality programs for our residents.

Premiers have recognized the importance of this equalization process and have called on the federal government to strength its commitment to the program. Atlantic Premiers endorse a reaffirmation of the principles of equalization and have called on the Prime Minister to enhance the program to ensure it fulfils its constitutional obligations. I am committed to working with my provincial colleagues in Atlantic Canada and across the country towards a process of meaningful, constructive dialogue with the federal Minister of Finance. The equalization program can be strengthened to make it work better, to make it more responsive to the needs of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Mr. Speaker, Provincial and Territorial Finance Ministers are meeting next week to discuss a range of issues, including the equalization program. I intend to engage my colleagues in a discussion of the merits of the program and of the opportunities to make it stronger. This will form the basis of an approach to the federal minister for fundamental change.

Tax Reform:

Mr. Speaker, in 2000, the Province embarked on a responsible and sustainable three year personal income tax reduction strategy. As a result, residents of this Province are benefitting from a $42 million provincial tax reduction this year, the year 2000. Next year, taxpayers will save $60 million compared to 1999. Combined with tax reductions announced by the federal government, over the three year period $400 million will be put back in the hands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and into the economy of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: This will have a direct impact on the economic growth of the Province.

I will be introducing a bill in this House shortly which will give effect to the tax reductions for 2001 and which will move the Province to a different method of determining provincial income tax. This new system will be known as Tax on Income. I will speak to this bill when it is introduced a little later in this session.

Mr. Speaker, in the fall of 1999, this government embarked on an extensive consultation process to renew the Province's economic agenda - the jobs and growth agenda. A consistent message heard was that government must look at new ways of enhancing access to investment capital. As a direct result, the 2000 Budget committed to the introduction of a Venture Capital Tax Credit Program. In October of this year, following a process of consultation, two new initiatives were introduced which are designed to encourage venture capital investments in all areas of the Province. The Direct Equity Tax Credit and the Labour-Sponsored Venture Capital Tax Credit respond directly to the message that this government heard from the business community - that government should encourage investment in businesses throughout the Province by offering incentives to invest in the ideas and plans of entrepreneurs.

The Direct Equity Tax Credit Program provides a 20 per cent credit against provincial personal income tax for investments made in eligible businesses operating in the Northeast Avalon region. Based on feedback received during the consultation process, this rate will be sufficient to address the needs of businesses in this area. Recognizing, however, that there is a greater challenge to raising investment capital in other areas of the Province, we are providing a substantially higher tax credit rate of 35 per cent outside the Northeast Avalon region.

Information sessions are currently being held across the Province to ensure the high level of understanding of the benefits of this tax credit program. I am greatly encouraged by the response to date and am confident that both programs will meet our objectives of encouraging investment by residents of the Province in local enterprises, particularly in the rural areas of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, the Province's tax regime is moving in the right direction. In 1997, we lowered our sales tax rate from 12 per cent to 8 per cent. The introduction of the HST has been responsible for putting in excess of $100 million annually back in the hands of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: It has stimulated a substantial increase in retail sales since its introduction and has contributed to an increased level of consumer confidence in the Province. In 1998, the Province introduced a Film Tax Credit designed to encourage growth in the local film industry. In each of the last three budgets, government has reduced the payroll tax so that, currently, 94 per cent of businesses in the Province do not pay a payroll tax. Our corporate income -

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind ministers in government that according to 107 of Beauchesne: Ministerial Statements are not meant to be a platform or regurgitation of current government policy, or policy for the last three years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Clearly it says - and I can state it for the record of the House - §348: "Under Standing Order 33(1) Ministers may make a short factual announcement or statement of Government policy. Provision is made for replies by Members of parties in opposition to comment on the statement. The Speaker may limit the time for reply as seems fit."

It goes on to say in §350: "The Speaker has emphasized that both the Government and Opposition contributions should be brief and factual."

Mr. Speaker, this is not a platform within the Orders of the House for ministers to get up and make policy statements, regurgitation, or a political platform for their benefit. The provision within the Standing Orders is clear; for a minister to convey a short, factual, brief information to the House, and to the public. I ask the Speaker to rule and take this minister, and all others who want to take this House on their backs, in a way that should be appropriate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, there have been many ministerial statements presented in this House of varying lengths, since I have been here, and there is nothing in our Standing Orders that limits the length or topic that a member or minister may present. So, there is really no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to complete his statement.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Because of the break in continuity, let me start all over again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to complete his statement.

MR. MATTHEWS: In 1997, Mr. Speaker, we lowered our sales tax rate from 12 per cent to 8 per cent. The introduction of the HST was responsible for putting in excess of $100 million annually back in the hands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: It has stimulated a substantial increase in retail sales since its introduction and has contributed to an increased level of consumer confidence in the Province. In 1998, the Province introduced a Film Tax Credit designed to encourage growth in the local film industry. You may have forgotten it, so I will say it again. In each of the last three budgets, government has reduced the payroll tax so that, currently, 94 per cent of businesses in the Province do not pay the tax. Our corporate income tax regime remains one of the most competitive in the country. These measures, combined with the recent personal income tax reductions and the equity tax credit programs, will ensure the Province's economic and employment prospects continue to improve.

Spending Priorities:

At the same time as the Province has been implementing measures to ensure a competitive and sustainable tax regime, we have also focused on priority spending. We have spent strategically in such areas as health, education and assisting those in need. For example, spending on health care has increased approximately 25 per cent since 1995-1996, a $125 million school construction and redevelopment program has been undertaken, and the Strategic Social Plan is being implemented. In addition, Mr. Speaker, the Province has implemented the HST credit and the seniors credit, both of which target relief to individuals and families with lower incomes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: We have maintained a balance between prudent spending in key areas which people have told us are priorities and ensuring that we maintain a fiscal position which will enable us to complete, and to compete nationally and internationally, and still provide quality services to our residents.

This is the part in which the hon. member will be interested. It is entitled: Conclusion.

Mr. Speaker, we are seeing the benefits of the actions taken over the past few years. We will not sacrifice the progress we have made. For all residents of this Province, current and future, we will strike the right balance between investing in key areas of our economy and social programs and maintaining a responsible fiscal position. We have been, and will continue to be, prudent in our spending and operate within our means. It is with this resolve that we will be able to provide Newfoundlanders and Labradorians with the opportunity to reach the prosperity of which this Province is capable.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: I expect to have about half an hour.

The first question I have for the minister is: In what province or on what planet are you living?
The minister's boom certainly does not match the gloom in this Province, I say to the Minister of Finance.

I can understand why he did not go out in the lobby today, in front of 500 or 600 people, and talk about the economy of this Province when there are 600 or 900 people who are going to be affected by the policy that they have put in place: a policy - the way they talk about it - that is going to reinvest in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

There is one reason only why that is being done; it is to create jobs in certain Liberal districts in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They are not creating new jobs. They are hoping, in my mind, that the people who are in the positions in and around St. John's and the Northeast Avalon will not go, so they can create some jobs in their districts for their friends. That is the bottom line with respect to that policy.

The minister talks about the Gross Domestic Product - not a true picture of what is being portrayed here, of what is going on. We have the oil industry not giving a true picture of the real numbers of what is happening in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador with respect to the Gross Domestic Product.

Also, he says, "Employment is now expected to remain stable at the 1999 level." Well, what an accomplishment, to remain stable. I think the people of the Province are looking for new jobs, trying to stem the out-migration, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is what the minister should be standing in this House of Assembly and saying: that we are creating jobs, not that we are holding the reins - cutting.

Here is something interesting. "Higher inflation rates, due to increased energy prices, will cause real personal income and real retail trade to be slightly lower...." That is what he should be on his feet in this House of Assembly for - what we have asked for, what the people in this Province have asked for in the past - for something to be done with the cost of energy with respect to gasoline and home heating oil in particular.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: We have seniors in this Province today having to make a decision. Are they going to put food on the table, or are they going to turn the thermostat up a bit? He has the gall to stand in this House of Assembly and say things are rosy in the Province of Newfoundland and labrador. Shame, I say to the Minister of Finance.

Under Fiscal Outlook, "This Province has made substantial progress over the past few years to get its fiscal house in order." It goes on to say, " This was achieved through a program of responsible fiscal management and prudent spending."

I say to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador: Look out for more cuts, in particular in the health care in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

He talks about equalization in this long-winded, say-nothing document. I say to the minister, he has to go up and make a case to Ottawa. Talk is cheap. It will soon be time to do something about it, I say to the Minister of Finance, to the Premier, and to the Cabinet on that side of the House of Assembly.

Tax Reform: He talks about a different method of determining provincial income tax. I remember, before the last election and afterwards, when we had a policy in our manual where we were going to look at income tax, and cut income tax, but what happened? It was ridiculed and mocked by members on that side of the House. What did they do as soon as they were elected? They adopted one of our policies to try and do something with respect to income tax.

Here is another good one. It says, "As a direct result, the 2000 Budget committed to the introduction of a Venture Capital Tax Credit Program."

Again, what happened when that group - the Liberal Government was elected in 1989. In 1990, they cut almost the exact same policy that was in place by the previous Administration at the time. It took them ten years to see the light on that one, to try and help create jobs in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and hopefully it will, but they are slow to learn. We have to repeat it and repeat it, for it to finally sink in.

Also, here they say government has reduced the payroll tax. Now, who introduced the payroll tax to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador but this crowd on that side of the House? We were opposed to the payroll tax from day one, and now they have reduced the payroll tax. They are trying to take credit for something they brought in, in the first place.

The one that sickens me the most with respect to this is: the very first day the House of Assembly is open, the Minister of Finance stands in his place and tries to create a rosy picture to deflect all the opposition that is going on in this Province, in every nook and cranny.

Just listen to this. I mean, this is unreal. It says here, "For example, spending on health care has increased approximately 25 % since 1995-96...." Now, what does that say? How much did they cut, back then?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, why don't they put out a few of the reports?

Mr. Speaker, do you see what they are doing? They are saying one thing all the time and doing another. That is what they are at all the time, and they are trying to create this picture that everything is hunky-dory in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The gall to get up and say that they have increased spending on health care by 25 per cent.

Mr. Speaker, as the minister has said, in conclusion, what I will say about this document that he presented here today - the first words out of his mouth in this sitting of the House - is that there is nothing here; and this Province, as long as that crowd is in place, has a long, long way to go with respect to the future of this Province and anything for the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As usual, the government tries to paint a very rosy picture of its own efforts and the economy of the Province; however, we have a very distorted picture here and it starts off even in the title. The minister calls it a Mid-Year Financial Report. The last time I looked, December was a lot closer to the end of March than halfway through the year.

We have not heard from this minister in months, and now we have a report which ignores the fact that the unemployment rate in this Province is up by 1 per cent in the last month, up 2.2 per cent for women, standing at 17.6 per cent, double the national average. He ignores that totally and instead claims that the employment rate will remain stable at the 1999 level. That is a place where we do not want to be and it is a place where, to this government's shame, we remain despite their number of years in office.

There are serious structural problems in this country that are not being addressed at all. We have one-quarter of our children living below the poverty line and in need of school meal programs to get a decent bit of nutrition in their day.

In looking at the fiscal outlook, in talking about gasoline taxes, gasoline tax is a serious concern. They are worse now than they were last year. Taxes go up when the price goes up, a fact that the minister failed to acknowledge. This government has done nothing to alleviate or relieve the consequences of high gasoline and, in particular, home-heating costs in this Province. Six months ago we made public a proposal that would see a rebate to the consumers of home-heating fuel, whether it be electricity or fuel oil in this Province, that would cost the same amount as his income tax reform that he bragged about in his speech here but that would have provided immediate and direct relief to the people of this Province who are suffering from high home-heating costs. That is something we want this government to look at and do instead of the income tax changes.

On equalization, not only can we make equalization better; we have to stop the outrageous grab that comes from the equalization formulas as they are applied right now. As was made public about a year ago by me, the Voisey's Bay project, for example, if it were to go ahead under current rules, would give $4.9 billion to the Government of Canada in fiscal revenues and only $412 million to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Under these circumstances, to proceed with the Voisey's Bay development, without changing that, would raise serious questions about government's interest in the future of the people of this Province.

The tax reform mentioned: I have dealt with tax reform, as was pointed out some months ago, benefits primarily those who have higher incomes and does little or nothing for those who are at the lower end of the income scale. In fact, they would benefit greatly from some relief in fuel taxes, particularly on home heat or electric heat for their houses.

The tax reform plans, the Direct Equity Tax Credit: this is something that we need to have a serious look at, to offer across the board a direct equity tax incentive or tax credits, would be a mistake without very careful analysis of what programs apply and what programs do not. I know the legislation has been passed, but this is something we need to have a careful look at, to make sure that this is not just an incentive or a tax break for monies that would be spent and invested, in any case.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to announce government's intention to table amendments to the Liquor Control Act later this week which will allow communities in the Electoral District of Torngat Mountains control over the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages.

In the past twelve months there have been a series of tragedies in Nain and other communities in the Electoral District of Torngat Mountains, including more than a dozen suicides. A listening and healing process was set up in the community of Nain to help residents cope and to try to find ways of dealing with the crisis. One theme that emerged repeatedly was the need to give communities the ability to take control of their own destiny.

Today's statement is government's response to a request from the Labrador Inuit Association for local control over the sale and consumption of alcohol in their communities. I am pleased to announce today that the amendments to be tabled will provide the communities in the Torngat Mountains electoral district with the full range of power and discretion that the Labrador Inuit Association has requested.

Mr. Speaker, the amendments will obligate the Province to heed the wishes of the residents of the communities, as expressed by a decision of the town or community council on the matter. Town or community councils will be responsible for undertaking appropriate consultations with Aboriginal organizations and other local interests.

Under the amendments, the Liquor Licensing Board will not issue a license to sell liquor in a community in the Electoral District of Torngat Mountains when the town or community council has requested that the license be denied. Similarly, the Liquor Licensing Board will cancel a license where a town or community council requests such cancellation.

Mr. Speaker, the amendments will ensure that communities who wish to be alcohol free have access to the tools necessary to ban alcohol.

The Liquor Licensing Board will remain responsible for the issuance and cancellation of licenses, and enforcement of liquor laws. However, it will take direction from the community in these matters. Through the town or community councils, communities will be able to direct restriction of hours of sale, quantity of sales per person, and the issuing, refusal or cancellation of licenses and permits.

Mr. Speaker, government remains committed to consulting with the Aboriginal people in Labrador, to help them solve a problem which is obvious to all of us in this Province, and have created human problems, problems for children especially, which need to be resolved. We remain committed to the Aboriginal people of this Province and responding, where possible, with policies and programs which meet their needs.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me say, first of all, that the details of the legislation will become known to us when it is tabled. We do not know exactly what it is, but I take the Premier at face value.

I want to say publicly today that we applaud, on this side of the House, the leaders within the Aboriginal community for speaking out and requesting of government the assistance that they have sought for the protection of their future, their children.

I want to ensure that community, and the people of the Province, that this side of the House, our party, the party that I now lead, will do whatever we feel is in the best interests, with the government, in working through a plan, both short-term and long-term, to see that the issues that community faces and dealing with, the community itself, the leadership within the community, the families themselves - it would be an understatement to say that the problems are severe. It would be an understatement to say that what is going to be required is a long-term approach, not only with a great deal of understanding but of compassion, to deal with the protection of children in that community. That is where the solution lies long term.

I will say to government that any initiative you decide to bring before this House, that in our view, and after consultation obviously with people within those communities who will assist in bringing about a long-term solution and assist in the short-term for the protection of children and the ultimate and overall well-being of the people within that community, we will solidly and fully endorse.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, will support any amendment or any proposal that would help alleviate what has been happening on the North coast of Labrador. We think it is very important, as government, to give the tools to the people in those communities the ability to look after what they consider to be the appropriate way of doing things. We have the responsibility to do everything we can to assist them in that manner.

As a party, we supported the LIA on their request to government in the proposed amendment, and we issued a press release on that last week demonstrating our support. The communities on the North coast of Labrador are best able to decide what is suitable for their communities in dealing with the many problems they have experienced over the last little while. Certainly, I think it is incumbent upon all of us in this House to do whatever we can to support them in those efforts.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to provide the House of Assembly with an update on the Churchill River Project.

First of all, I want to say that government is fully committed to working for an agreement that is in the overall best interest of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DICKS: The Lower Churchill River Power Project is complex and will take time to arrive at an agreement that meets this objective.

The proposed agreement is complex in terms of the economic, financial and environmental implications, and also in terms of the Aboriginal interests and concerns that must be addressed and resolved. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, much has been accomplished over the last two-and-one-half years. We have seen significant accomplishments both in terms of the agreements we have reached to date and the value of the work invested in the future development of the Lower Churchill.

Mr. Speaker, the resale of the 130 MW Recall to Hydro Quebec, the Guaranteed Winter Availability Contract between CF(L)Co and Hydro Quebec, and the Churchill Falls (Labrador) Corporation Shareholders' Agreements provide significant benefits to this Province.

What are the benefits? To date, since March 9, 1998, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has netted $68.5 million in profits from the sale of the recall power, and anticipate additional profits of $1 billion from these sales by the year 2041. In addition, the GWAC Agreement protects the financial viability of CF(L)Co and will provide an estimated $1 billion in revenue to the Province over the term of this contract.

Both the GWAC and the CF(L)Co Shareholders' Agreement were necessary to ensure the long-term financial viability of CF(L)Co specifically protecting the future viability of CF(L)Co and providing future benefits to the Province.

How do these agreements achieve this? First, the GWAC provides a cash infusion into the company of approximately $1.5 billion. This will ensure that the company does not experience the cash deficiencies that would have occurred starting in 2001 as a result of the terms of the original power contract.

Secondly, under the terms of the Shareholders' Agreement we have eliminated the potential for Hydro Quebec to gain a majority ownership interest in the company when such cash shortfalls did occur. Previously, only Hydro Quebec had the right to infuse cash in the company in return for shares. Now, under the Shareholders' Agreement, both shareholders have the right, but not the obligation, to contribute cash to the company.

Thirdly, the revenues from GWAC and the establishment of a $75 million capital replacement reserve provide for the future operational viability of the CF(L)Co facilities. Both shareholders are committed to maintaining these facilities. Clearly, it is not a responsible or rationale strategy to suggest that we should allow the company to go bankrupt. It is in the interest of the Province as a two-thirds owner to ensure that the plant is in sound operational condition now, and until the year 2041. We will also benefit from the $1 billion which we have received from GWAC.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, we have secured the future supply of the 225 MW Twinco block of power for the residents of Labrador West. The terms of the original contract made the right to this power uncertain after the year 2014, a short time from now. Under the Shareholders agreement, Hydro Quebec has waived its rights to this block of power.

These are all significant benefits. However, it is important to note that these agreements cannot and do not undo or correct the inequities of the original 1969 contract. Instead, these agreements mitigate the inevitable effects of the 1969 contract which threatened the future operational and financial viability of CF(L)Co and our continued ownership of this valuable facility in Labrador. The alternative, to do nothing, would have been irresponsible.

I also note that the additional revenues received to date, approximately $75 million, from the Recall and GWAC Agreements, is well in excess of the net costs of $34 million incurred to date in developing the Lower Churchill Project.

In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, negotiation of the terms for development of the Lower Churchill have been ongoing. Up to this time, extensive financial analysis, engineering, and environmental work have been undertaken. As is the case with all projects of this magnitude, the initial project concept has evolved to reflect the results of this work and the results of negotiations.

Gull Island was, and continues to be, the cornerstone of this project. This government is still committed to developing the tremendous potential of the Gull Island site which is one of the best undeveloped hydroelectric resources remaining in North America.

New transmission in Quebec and Labrador will be required to deliver the energy to the market. This element of the project has not changed.

What has changed, however, is that we are currently considering a project which would involve Newfoundland and Labrador owning all the generating and transmission facilities required in Labrador with an estimated capital expenditure of approximately $4 billion. We are negotiating with Hydro Quebec to be a purchaser of power, not an equity partner in the Labrador development.

The Quebec River diversions are no longer part of this project. In the context of increasing cost estimates and environmental and Aboriginal concerns, Hydro Quebec has indicated these components will not be part of the project. An optimization study of Gull Island, without the river diversions, has recently been undertaken. We are anticipating a plant capacity of between 1700 and 2000 MW.

In addition to discussions on development of the Lower Churchill, we are in the process of negotiating the terms for the resale of 130 MW recall power when the existing contract with Hydro Quebec expires in March 2001. All options will be considered in maximizing the revenue to the Province from the sale of this power.

On a concurrent basis with the commercial negotiations, discussions with the Innu of Labrador have been ongoing since March 1998. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and the Innu Nation have entered into a Process Agreement to facilitate Innu participation in task force on engineering and environmental work, community consultations, and discussions towards a future Impacts and Benefits Agreement. We are committed to ongoing consultation and discussion with the Innu Nation so long as discussions for development of the project continue.

Our commitment to developing the project in an environmentally sound manner has not changed. Approximately $2.2 million has been spent on environmental work this year.

In summary, Mr. Speaker, as is the case for any project of this magnitude, these are very complicated commercial negotiations. In particular, negotiations of a long-term pricing arrangement has been made more complex in the context of the market restructuring and price uncertainty which has occurred in the North East US markets. In fact, this led to a pause in negotiations with Hydro Quebec over the summer, at which time we held preliminary discussions with other potential customers. At the end of the summer, we agreed to resume negotiations with a new project concept as I have outlined to you.

Hydro Quebec is a natural purchaser of the energy from Labrador given its adjacent transmission system. It makes sense to try to get the right deal with Hydro Quebec. However, if we are unable to negotiate the right deal, we will consider our other options. The people of this Province will be informed when decisions are made concerning the project. However, we cannot negotiate in public.

I am confident this great resource potential in Labrador will be developed. Government and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro are committed to ensuring that the development occur under the right terms for the benefit of the people of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, at this time I also wish to advise the House of Assembly that government has written the Board of Directors of CF(L)Co and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, asking that they consider publicly releasing the CF(L)Co Shareholders Agreement, Guaranteed Winter Availability Contract and the 130 MW Recall Agreements, if it is appropriate to do so at this time.

The documents to which I refer have received the approval of the Boards of Directors of both CF(L)Co and NLH. These are comprised of well-known, respected and experienced members of the business community. They have very strong business backgrounds. The Hydro Board includes: Mark Dobbin, Barbara Fong, Terry Goodyear, William Kelly, Dean MacDonald, Brian Maynard, Trudy Pound-Curtis, Deborah Thiel, Wayne Trask and William Wells. The CF(L)Co Board includes: David Collett, Albert Hickman, Dean MacDonald, Len Stirling, Bob Warr, William Wells and Victory Young, all well-known, established and respected members of our community.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, the fact that these boards have reviewed and approved these documents is perhaps the strongest evidence that they are in the best interest of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to assure this House that government will honor the decision of the boards on these matters.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to the people in the gallery. This is cruel and unusual punishment today, long-winded statements designed to deprave Question Period, so people can get an answer to what questions there are, but I would like to respond directly to it.

Let's go back to March, 1998, a $1.5 million press conference in Churchill about the development of the Lower Churchill. Two of the big reasons that we were going forward on this project, as said by the former Premier, were: Number one, that Hydro-Quebec had agreed finally to divert the Romaine River and St-Jean Rivière into the Smallwood reservoir down into the Lower Churchill, that would bring more power to Newfoundland and Labrador at the end of the construction project. Secondly, he said that as a result of that diversion, as a result of that extra water going through, there was going to be in excess of $600 million to reconstruct new generators or construct new generators to handle the additional capacity. On top of that, Quebec Hydro had agreed that they would finance - all of them, their own cost - the construction of the transmission line from the project to the Quebec border.

Now, what happened after that? We have spent in excess of $50 million of the public's money. We have entered into two agreements that this crowd here will not release or will not make public. The minister says he has asked the board to reconsider, or to consider, a request to make it public; but it will not happen, and here is why: because this government gave up control of CF(L)Co. We have eight directors on the board of CF(L)Co. Two Quebec directors can override the other six directors' decisions. It will not happen, Minister. You know it. You are posturing. It is a sham. Why don't you even admit that today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Secondly, listen to this line. The minister says in his statement, with respect to GWAC, that we have realized $68.5 million in profits from the sale of the recall power. How much of that has gone into the provincial economy in terms of hiring more nurses, more doctors, more social workers? Not much.

Here is the real line. It says: ...and we anticipate additional profits of $1.0 billion from these sales by 2041.

Guess what? This agreement expires next March. The minister said, in an interview between myself and him - and I can only go by what he said - that next March that agreement expires -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I have the transcript, Paul, so if you would like me to read it to you, I can.

- but then we will have to renegotiate with Hydro-Quebec.

I said to him: What happens if Hydro-Quebec does not want to enter into that agreement? We will have to find somebody else, he said.

So, an anticipated extra $1 billion is like saying: I anticipate that I am going to win $10 million tomorrow if I buy the right lottery ticket. Well, folks, I have not won it yet and we do not have that $1 billion, I say to the minister.

Finally - he knows we do not; they all know we do not - if you are so confident and so concerned that we were wrong, table the agreements and show us we were wrong.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Table them right now in the House. You will not do it!

This is a decision that they made. They said they would update people on a regular, systematic basis. These decisions have been made. These agreements have been entered into. Why can't you table them? Why won't you table them? That is the big question that is on people's minds today. What did we get after spending $50 million of the public's money to enter into a framework agreement with Hydro-Quebec? What did we get? Not very much. I know what Hydro-Quebec got. They got the company CF(L)Co, veto power over all its decisions; they have the company solvent, and the actual money that we are getting will keep that solvent, and that is about it. That is what you, your government, and the great negotiating team were able to accomplish.

I will say this to the minister today, and I will reissue my call to the new Premier, to the Minister of Finance and any other minister, because they have all seen - especially the leadership candidates have had a bit of a conversion about being more accountable and being more open.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE: Table the agreements and let the public see for themselves. If we are wrong, I will stand up and apologize. If you are wrong, you stand up and apologize.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government and this minister not only has egg on his face; he has an omelette pouring down over his shirt and onto his pants.

When this deal was announced, there was more power from Quebec rivers, there was an in-feed to the Island, there was the Quebec Hydro to put up the financing for the transmission line. There was a partner and a customer. Now we have no in-feed, no Quebec power, no transmission line, no partner, no customer; in effect, no deal. If we believe this minister, we have had no deal since last May. His only answer was: Well, nobody asked.

Of course, if you believe the former Premier, we had some deal on the go until October - I forget what date he said the first time - but this minister says not since last May.

Mr. Speaker, all we have left is two agreements with Hydro-Quebec, neither of which have been made public. What we do understand is that these deals were part of the full range of development. What I think, and the people of this Province think and know, is that Quebec Hydro does not give anything away. They made this deal because it was part of a bigger deal, and I would like to know, and the people of this Province need to know, what is in those deals.

To suggest that he will ask them to consider something - the Board of Directors of two companies that are owned, in one case wholly by this Province and in another case substantially by this Province - is unacceptable. These deals must be made public. The people of this Province need to know what is in those deals. We have a right to understand what this government has done on behalf of the people of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, some people say this is a secretive government. Some people say this government hides information. Some say this government is not operating in a transparent manner.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am rising in the House today to say that this is not true.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: A good judge of a government's openness is the way it treats information requested under the Freedom of Information legislation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: People may not realize that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador - albeit, it was a former PC government - was a pioneer in providing access to government information in the early 1980s when it introduced the Freedom of Information Act. This act places very few limits on the release of information other than those needed to protect private citizens, the integrity of legal matters, the competitive position of private companies, and confidential Cabinet material.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: From December 1, 1999 to November 1, 2000, 225 Freedom of Information requests were received by the Province. In about 70 per cent of those cases, applicants were provided with the information they requested. In about 20 per cent of those cases, the information requested did not exist, was subject to referrals to third parties, or was withdrawn. Information was denied in about 10 per cent of all cases.

AN HON. MEMBER: Now, do you hear that?.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: Where information was denied in accordance with the act, it was because the information requested had implications relating to the competitive position of companies, involved legal investigations, related to matters under federal-provincial negotiations, dealt with consultations among ministers and between ministers and Executive Council, or was under consideration by Cabinet.

Mr. Speaker, this government is confident that the act is working well, but we also acknowledge that there have been major changes to the act since it was enacted in 1981.

While the act was considered a pioneering piece of legislation at the time, in the past twenty years there have been major changes in the way we manage information, and even the creation of new forms of communication like e-mail and voice mail. These types of communication were not even contemplated when the act was passed.

This government has no intention of hiding behind legislation. We are committed to an open, transparent process in the development and implementation of public policy, and we want to ensure our legislation remains clear and relevant in this new age of information.

Mr. Speaker, that is why I am announcing today that government will undertake a review of the act and our approach to its implementation. I have asked the Minister of Justice to consider how the review should be undertaken, including the possible structure, mandate and timing of a review. As a particular priority of this review, I am asking that options for an appeal process be considered as well as the appropriateness of the fee structures under the act. I have instructed the minister to report back before the House closes so that the review can commence before the new year.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, in the seven years that I have sat in this Assembly I have seen some weird and woolly things, but this takes the cake.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: This is a government where the Premier rises and says: I am rising in the House today to say this is not true, ladies and gentlemen. It is not true. We are a government that provides information.

Let me give you some examples. I recall, for four years running, requesting that this minister - the new transparent, the Hallmark man, the new Christmas card in the House of Assembly - release the Atkinson Report. Each and every time, he said: No.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No, he did not.

I recall writing the Minister of Environment and Labour, seeking information on the Province's water supply. He said: Yes, you can have it, but we are going to charge you $10,000 to get it. That is what he said.

I wrote the minister - this minister, when he was another minister - about the Lower Churchill. Do you know what he wrote back? He referred me to his press releases on Newfoundland Information Services.

I wrote the current Premier on August 16, and on October 30, I got his response. I asked him directly - which I will, in Question Period today, and we will see how open and transparent and what their newfound philosophy is like - I asked him, could he provide me with the information on the consultant reports that led government to make a decision to move 217 people around different places on the Island. I asked him to provide the bureaucracy's economic analysis of why this was a good decision. Do you know what he wrote back? I will quote it: Except for items 6 and 7 in your letter, the particulars of this matter were prepared for Cabinet consideration and used for consultation among ministers. Accordingly, access to related information is denied under section 9.1.

This is a Premier who has the audacity to stand today and tell the people of the Province: We are not a government that hides anything.

These reports are done - if, in fact, there are any reports - and the public have a right to know. You have no right to deny them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier opened his statement with, "...some people say this is a secretive government." To that growing list of people have recently been added the Minister of Health and Community Services and the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: It is very difficult to take seriously what the minister has read with a very difficult straight face here today in the House of Assembly.

The Freedom of Information Act is more likely known in this Province as the suppression of information act, information which the people of this Province, political parties and citizens of this Province have a right to know to be able to conduct their business and to carry out their functions in the House of Assembly and elsewhere.

The minister is now talking about a review process. In Nova Scotia, there is a Newfoundlander who is a review commissioner who hears up to 300 reviews in a year. This obviously ought to be part of our legislation, the introduction of an ombudsperson for the (inaudible). These things have to happen, and they have to happen now.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Before I recognize the hon. minister, I would like to welcome to the gallery today the hon. Gerry Byrne, Member of Parliament for Humber St. Barbe-Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Thank you very much.

Mr. Speaker, today I am speaking as the Minister Responsible for Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

I am pleased to update my hon. colleagues today on government's efforts to have the Main River designated as a Canadian Heritage River. Together with my hon. colleague, the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, and stakeholders groups, including Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited, we have completed a draft management plan for the Main River which will form the basis for obtaining Canadian Heritage River status.

Attaining this status for the Main River will be a significant step toward protecting and preserving a portion of the Main River watershed, especially its natural heritage features, and will also be an important part of the solution to some of the other issues surrounding the Main River watershed.

The package includes a detailed approach to managing the protected area corridor and a draft Stewardship Agreement between key stakeholder groups. As a step toward achieving Canadian Heritage River designation, the provincial government proposes to establish a Provincial Waterway Park in the corridor of the Main River, and also proposes to designate the remainder of the viewshed as a Special Management Area, thereby providing additional protection to the Provincial Waterway Park.

An innovative approach is being suggested to manage the activities of industry and government outside the Waterway Park and the Stewardship Agreement has been drafted to ensure that activities outside the protected area do not cause negative impacts inside the protected area.

By accomplishing Heritage River status we will also contribute to the protection of the Pine Marten and old growth forest, as well as provide a unique and outstanding tourism attraction and ecotourism opportunities which will bring economic benefits to the surrounding area, as visitors from around the world come to experience the natural beauty of Main River.

The package clearly addresses the most critical Main River issues, including the protection of the view scape, protection of the endangered Pine Marten population in the watershed area, and road decommissioning in the viewshed.

In addition to Heritage River issues, government is also addressing several parallel issues.

First of all, government has created a committee consisting of the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper and Gros Morne National Park to address the ecological integrity of Gros Morne.

Secondly, government is committed to identifying an ecological reserve north of the Main River to include a large and representative portion of old growth forest.

Thirdly, new discussions have been initiated with area outfitters and Corner Brook Pulp and Paper to address concerns related to the impact of harvesting plans on outfitting.

We are now prepared to receive and review public input into the draft management plan and, as such, tomorrow, December 5, and the next day, December 6, 2000, there will be public open houses in Pollard's Point and Corner Brook respectively, where the management plan will be explained and comments received. Government will accept comments up to December 18 of this year on the document.

Mr. Speaker, as my colleagues are aware, this government is committed to successfully attaining Canadian Heritage River designation for Main River, and we are confident that this management plan will meet the natural and recreational goals of the Canadian Heritage River program in a manner which fairly and reasonably balances industry's needs and the need to protect our natural heritage.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the minister today that we would certainly agree with having the river declared a Canadian Heritage River. We have absolutely no problem with that. The only problem I have with your statement, Minister, and your words, is: Are we going to consult all the stakeholders in Newfoundland and Labrador? I do not mean a meeting in a week or so. Are we going to talk to private citizens throughout the Province, or is this going to be another finance deal where we get them all on computer, they type in their questions, and somewhere down life's road we get an answer?

I say to you today, Minister, as long as all the stakeholders in this Province are consulted, as long as experts are involved who will determine the goals of what we trying to accomplish here - and every citizen in this Province who wishes to have input into the Main River - and as long as you, as minister, and this government are going to allow the time and energy, and allow these people reasonable time to make presentations to the government, then and only then will we consider this to be something very worthwhile. Unless every stakeholder in this Province is given the time and the opportunity to make submissions, then that is the only way this can work and be acceptable to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The government was so committed to getting the Canadian Heritage River status for the Main River that it waited seven years before it came up with a management plan. This plan does not adequately address the issues raised by the pine marten recovery team in a letter to the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods on May 26. It fails to address, beyond the tourism issues of the river itself, the issues of the whole ecosystem. It fails to address the 12 per cent commitment that this government made to have set aside 12 per cent of the land mass by the year 2000, as part of natural heritage. It fails to provide an opportunity, outside of tomorrow and the next day, or up until December 18, for input from across the Province. It fails to take into consideration all the concerns around this Province about the Main River that recently have been talked about publicly in the press, in the media, in the scientific and academic community, and the tourism community.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: This decision ought not to be made without an opportunity for full public knowledge and information.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I stand today to provide this House with the first in a series of updates regarding the implementation of government's regionalization initiative which was announced on July 27.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: What I want to make quite clear is that this government remains committed to this policy initiative. Some of these organizations are being relocated to put the service closer to the people they serve. There are also organizations which can, through the use of modern communication technology, effectively operate from any location in the Province and by doing this we can distribute the economic benefits of government. The need to centralize for decision-making and communication has been diminished in the new age of technology.

Added to those factors is the reality that the economy of the Avalon region is growing at a significant pace.

The divisions are being moved to regional centers and these communities and the surrounding areas will benefit. The communities have embraced this policy decision and are eagerly anticipating the full implementation of regionalization.

Government continues to work with our employees who are impacted by this policy. Yes, we are firm on our commitment to relocate 275 positions. However, we are equally firm in our desire to treat our employees in a fair and reasonable manner. As a result of our efforts, today the number of employees whose circumstances remain unresolved has declined to 193.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform this House that these employees are now being given priority consideration for approximately 160 job competitions within the public service. We expect that number to increase as the process continues and as additional vacancies come forward, they will continue to receive priority. We are working now to match employees who are unable to relocate into as many of these positions as possible.

This government had previously announced an enhanced benefits and support package for our employees. That included increased supports for employees who relocated such as a Home Equity Assistance Program, house hunting trip for the entire family, a return trip to close out any personal business, and $1,000 to cover miscellaneous expenses. There were also options for employees who were unable to relocate including redeployment, voluntary departure, voluntary relocation, and career counselling services.

I am announcing today an additional enhanced employee benefit related to regionalization. Government is prepared to provide annual salary assistance up to a maximum of $5,000 to employees who have an opportunity to move into a lower-paying position in the public service.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say, I think it was on Thursday, we notified the union, NAPE, on this issue. They probably have not had time to reply to us yet, but as soon as they reply, if they give us their go ahead, we will implement it.

We have also broadened the requirements for the voluntary departure program to attract more interest and thereby create more opportunities.

These extra initiatives are in direct response to concerns being expressed by employees and it will see more employees who are unable to relocate find another suitable position within government.

Through this regionalization policy, we have been provided with a unique and exciting opportunity in Corner Brook. I am pleased to advise this House that government will be making an investment into the Corner Brook Campus of the College of the North Atlantic to provide for the necessary laboratory infrastructure.

The college's Corner Brook campus is establishing itself as a centre of excellence for natural resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: With the Department of Forestry and Agrifoods having a presence at this campus, we will be able to build relationships with the faculty and students and share expertise. It will create a critical mass in the natural resources sector and enhance the college's centre of excellence.

It will also provide us with the opportunity to provide the employees of our wildlife branch with state-of-the-art lab facilities, moving them out of a building in Pleasantville that can only be described as obsolete.

I would also like to inform this House today that after a comprehensive review, it has been decided that the Animal Health Lab and its five employees will remain in St. John's. Since the lab deals with diseased animals, it raised environmental concerns. It is appropriate to keep the lab in close proximity to the post-mortem building and its incinerator and we have adjusted that part of the plan.

Mr. Speaker, this policy has not been without its critics; but those critics have focused their criticisms on the cost of implementing this policy. Even some of our critics, including the President of NAPE, recognizes the merits of this policy initiative. In fact, Mr. Hanlon, in a letter to me on November 20, 2000, proposes a mechanism for implementing this policy. His alternative proposal, however, in the opinion of government, is just not feasible.

We are saying the costs will be significantly lower than what has been put forward by NAPE. The union has been inflating their estimates to discredit this policy. Our estimates continue to be refined as the process unfolds and final figures will not be known until employees have made their decisions and tenders for capital improvements have been awarded. We are also involved in commercial negotiations at this time.

Mr. Speaker, I am making a commitment here today. Once the final figure is known, I will provide this House with a full accounting of the implementation costs associated with this initiative.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, government firmly believes this is a sound policy decision. The benefit of moving government services to areas outside of St. John's cannot be overstated. We will be putting government jobs into these areas. These employees will need homes, food, clothing - the necessities of life. The economy of those areas will see improvement as there will be spinoffs. These people will contribute to and enjoy the social and cultural characteristics of these communities.

How can anyone say that there will not be a positive impact on the local economies by putting sixty-three jobs into Grand Falls-Windsor or 100 jobs in Corner Brook or creating centres of excellence across the Province? It will be beneficial in the same manner as the creation of 1,000 jobs in St. John's by Convergys call centre. It will and that is why we are doing this, and at the same time we continue and will continue to lessen the impact on our employees.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, regionalization or decentralization of government services is not a new concept. It has been done by governments in the Province in the past, but they have done it a little bit differently. We had no understanding that this was coming.

This government sought a mandate in 1999, and nowhere was it mentioned. In the Throne Speech last year, was there an indication from this government that this was a concept that they were pursuing? Did they outline for the people of the Province that this was a concept they were looking at seriously, that they were going to engage NAPE, that they were going to engage the public service, that they were going to engage the public generally to get their view on it? No, we did not hear that. Did we see from this government any preparation whatsoever before this announcement was made? No.

The Premier stands in the House today and says the final figures are not known; yet his former boss, who is now the federal Member for Bonavista-Trinity-Conception, was quick to say that our estimated cost on this - back in July he said this - was between $5 million and $7 million. That is what he said.

Now, the questions have been asked. Where were the studies? Are they available? Did government ask a senior group of public servants whom they trusted and who worked for them, to put together a briefing paper on what services could be moved to better serve the Province as part of an economic development strategy? No. Their response to that is, trust me; we won't release it.

When asked about those reports, were there any outside consultants' reports related to this initiative that recommended to government and to Cabinet that they do this? We asked for it. No, Mr. Speaker, nothing forthcoming.

When asked directly about what costs would be associated with such a move, the response has been: No, NAPE's figures are wrong, the Official Opposition's figures are wrong, and you have to believe me when I say that they are wrong - because that is all they are saying. They will not produce one shred of evidence on what the estimated cost will be. Do you know why? Because it doesn't exist. This was a political decision. This was not a decision made in the best interests of the people of the Province, certainly not for the people who are going to move.

This was not a decision made to enhance public services throughout the region. If it was, an entirely different approach would have been taken, one that we have just outlined. This was a political decision, Mr. Speaker, a decision made to enhance the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, not the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: That is what has gone on here.

Mr. Speaker, if they did move in the right direction, and if this decision was so beneficial, they would be laying on the table now study after study: here is the economic analysis; here is the study that shows services will be impacted; here is how we are going to achieve it. There are forty or fifty employees who will not be able to move for two years because they are going to retire soon, so we will achieve that through attrition. None of that took place.

What is evident, Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of days, is that the only thing transparent that is emerging from this government is their contempt for the public of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition wasted paper and ink in writing to the Premier, under the Freedom of Information Act, looking for reports, consultations, analyses and studies on the program of regionalization announced July 27. The reason he did not get it was not because of the government's failure to respond to the Freedom of Information Act. It was, in fact, because they did not exist. The studies were never done, unless one can find one on the back of an envelope somewhere where it was discussed before a Cabinet meeting held in July.

Mr. Speaker, this plan and the announcement made today is really proof positive that this was not thought out and no consideration was given to the needs of the employees, indeed no consideration given at all to what would happen to these employees, or indeed caution was thrown to the wind with respect to cost.

Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon this government to provide a guarantee today, not to say there are 193 people left to sort out, but to provide a guarantee today that this plan - if they insist on proceeding with it, despite all the opposition, despite the inadequacies of the analysis - that they must provide a guarantee to the 278 employees and their families, that they will not suffer as a result of this government's decision.

If they were to do that, they could take their time. They could find a way of doing it. They could relocate people. They could come up with other plans and programs until people fill in positions. Nobody would object to that, but they have to provide a guarantee that they will not disrupt the lives and income of the employees of the government, which they have so far being callously ignoring.

Oral Questions


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is obviously for the Premier today. Three senior Cabinet ministers who have declared themselves, Premier, as candidates to succeed you have made statements about how: a hallmark of my government would be that we need to be more accountable, re-institution of the Ombudsman, all accountability features - transparency - and in particular they say government studies, government reports, agreements, and any material relating to a decision made by government or a government agency should be released to the public fully and promptly; their words, your colleagues.

Virtually every member of your Cabinet has been at their press conferences - although for some, none. I look across the aisle and every one of those people are in their places, right here today. As of last week, in my view, the policy of your government on accountability has changed, Sir.

Now, let me ask you what I asked you on August 16 with respect to the regionalization move. Will you and your government, in accordance with your Cabinet colleagues and their conversion about more accountability and more openness, release all of the information that I requested and was denied by you? Will you release all of the information that the media requested and was denied by you? Your signature is here. Will you release all of the information that other municipalities and other people and unions requested and was denied by you? Will you release that information now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman today that, under the present Freedom of Information Act, he has what information was available under that Freedom of Information Act.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER TULK: Oh, yes. Let me say -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to him that what he is witnessing is what the act says should happen. There has been no contravention of the Freedom of Information Act by this government, there will not be any contravention of the Freedom of Information Act by this government, and we are today announcing and have announced a review of the Freedom of Information Act to say, if there are changing circumstances that need to be addressed, we will review the Freedom of Information Act. We will put in place a process, if necessary, of appeal. We will look at the whole situation and we will provide what is necessary. That is no different, I say to the hon. gentleman, from what any of my colleagues on this side of the House have said.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: According to the Premier, this issue is done. The decision is made; government is moving on. That means all of the studies, if there are any, are now open to the public. You cannot hide behind the act. You have the absolute discretion to table that information; yet, you will not do it, Sir. You have the absolute discretion.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the Minister of Health, now that you are a leadership candidate and you have made a statement about how a hallmark of your administration will be openness, do you support that decision or will you stand in your place today and provide some straight talk to this Legislature and say your support changing and tabling that information?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the Leader of the Opposition that he has never heard from anybody's mouth, except his own, that there were reports, that there were consultants' reports done. He has never heard that from any member on this side of the House. He certainly has never heard it from me. As a matter of fact, what he did hear from me when I was the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal was that I believe that we had competent public servants who had been involved in this when his own party was in power and moving the Department of Forestry to Corner Brook in 1984. They had been involved in that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: Here is what I said to him, if he is listening. We believe that those people were quite capable of making recommendations to government, and they did make those recommendations to government. They made them to the Cabinet of this Province and, as such, under the Freedom of Information Act, that material is supposed to be kept confidential.

If, under a review that we put in place, that comes out to say that Cabinet materials - which I doubt, to be frank with you - have to be given to the hon. gentleman, then he will receive them. As of today, everything that was asked for under the Freedom of Information Act, that was involved in this process, that was available and not protected by Cabinet secrecy, was made available to the gentleman.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) simply not true. Now we have the Minister of Health on the record, that he is not going to say anything.

I will ask the Minister of Mines and Energy - according to his philosophy, if you do not ask any questions they are not going to give you any information anyway. That is why we ask the questions, Premier, of you and your government.

I would like to ask him: Do you support government's decision? You talked about being more open, more accountable, more transparent, releasing studies. Do you support the release of information pertaining to this issue? If you do, stand up and say so.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Isn't this a very interesting exercise? The Leader of the Opposition walks into this House today with great concern about how we were treating public servants in this Province. Instead of that, what he is attempting to do now is play a kind of politics that I say is beneath him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER TULK: Let me just say this to him: The people on this side of the House are honorable enough that when they disagree with government policy they will tender their resignation to the Premier, as they should. There is no disagreement, I say to the hon. gentleman, on this side of the House on this issue and on whether or not we are fulfilling our obligations under the Freedom of Information Act. We are, and we will continue to do so.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: What is very clear is the pattern that is all too familiar to the people of the Province: that in Liberal campaigns, even internal ones, (inaudible) the public, will say anything to get themselves elected and do something completely opposite afterwards.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: That is what is familiar here. That is what is very clear.

Let me say this to the Premier. There is no reason to hide the information. The Cabinet has made its decision. You, yourself, have reaffirmed it again here today. You said it is over and done with. The people have every right to see on what basis - the information, internal studies, consultants' reports, departmental reviews, cost analysis, et cetera. There is no question even under the current act, no matter how much you protest, that they have every right to it. The question is: Why do you deny them that right, and what gives you the right to deny them?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the Leader of the Opposition must have some weird dreams at night. He is over there dreaming about consultants' reports, reviews, when I have said to him on a dozen different occasions that what was done here is that we consulted with the senior public service of this Province who had experience -

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TULK: You can read what you like. You will probably twist it to suit yourself.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: I listened to him, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if he could extend the same courtesy.

The truth of the matter is that this government had discussions with the senior civil servants, senior public servants, and then made a presentation. There were at least two Cabinet meetings, maybe more, but at least two Cabinet meetings in which presentations, prepared for Cabinet, were given to the Cabinet and the decision was made. The policy decision was made to relocate people out of St. John's.

Now let me say one other thing to the Leader of the Opposition: No, the costs are not firm because we are -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) said it was.

PREMIER TULK: No, I did not. I said it was an estimate. All I have said is that this is an estimate.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TULK: Yes, they are important, and you should recognize what is being said.

They are estimates that were put together by the Public Service of this Province. As a matter of fact, one of them was quoted in the paper as saying those are the estimates. If the hon. gentleman remembers, it was back in The Telegram.

One of the things that we have undertaken in this regionalization policy is to implement it in such a way - we will do whatever is possible to alleviate some hardships which people may be suffering. We started in July, went beyond the Collective Agreement -

AN HON. MEMBER: It happened in 1984.

PREMIER TULK: No, it did not happen in 1984. As a matter of fact, a Minister of the Crown at the time said: What are they complaining about? They are only hired hands. That was a comment which came from that side of the House, that party over there.

Mr. Speaker, what we have done - and we are still, I say to the hon. gentleman, putting in place and working through a clearing house, working with senior civil servants, working with human resources directors and working with people directly.

I had a meeting this morning with the President of NAPE, Mr. Hanlon, who pointed out to me that he believes there were vacancies being hidden by some people in the Civil Service. I asked him, and I mean this sincerely, to put them on the table if he has them because I cannot find them. If he can, I will deal with it; and I will see that those vacancies are given to the people who might be able to move into them, rather than moving.

The costs are there, and the costs are increasing; but let me say one other thing to the Leader of the Opposition: the costs are clear enough, of what is involved there, that it will not be $25 million, which has been suggested by some people, neither will it be half of $25 million.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Five months have passed, almost five months since this decision was made. He tells us in his ministerial statement that he cannot give us figures because they are not finalized yet. Then he stands up and tells us that they are not going to be $25 million. Which is it? Which is it, Premier?

I will ask a question, Mr. Speaker. On August 16 I wrote him and made five requests. There was seven but five he denied. I asked about consultants' reports and economic analysis. He said these particulars were prepared for Cabinet consideration. He did not say they did not exist. He said they were prepared for Cabinet consideration and used for consultation among ministers for the purpose of government decision-making. Accordingly, access to this information is denied under section 91 of the Freedom of Information Act.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a Supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: I ask you again - the decision is made. It is history according to you, not according to everybody else, but according to you. You reaffirmed it today. Release the analysis on which you made the decision. If you can, release it. I bet you cannot.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman again: every piece of information that should have been made available under the Freedom of Information Act was made available to him.

As I have said to the hon. gentleman before, there were reports to Cabinet, made for Cabinet by senior public servants in the Province. That is Cabinet material, I say to the hon. gentleman. If he does not know it he probably never will; but that is Cabinet material. That is not how it works, Mr. Speaker. There is a Freedom of Information Act which says: materials prepared for Cabinet are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. I have said to him that the reports were made for Cabinet, and that is where it sits.

Let me just say this to him, as we progress through trying to help and create centres of excellence in this Province - I am going to ask him, and he had better stand up and say whether he is for or against the policy. Everybody else have said they are for it; I have not heard him say anything.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where have you been?

PREMIER TULK: Oh, yes, I know he does not. On the one hand he says: Yes, I am for it; but then on the other hand: No, I am not for it. Like the statement he made to the people out here today who have concerns: dividing people of this Province (inaudible). Now that is the kind of remark that does nothing for this Province, that does nothing for the people of this Province, that does nothing for the people affected, because there is no intent and there has never been any intent. As far as I know, it is only in the mind of one individual in this Province, that we are trying to divide the people and trying to divide communities. I think the City of St. John's is a beautiful place to be and a beautiful place to live, and this government is showing its commitment to this city.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: This morning my colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, announced - was it $1.9 million extra for the Civic Center? Yes, Mr. Speaker, a cost overrun because we believe it is the appropriate thing to do, but we also believe you have to share the wealth in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier has said publicly in this Chamber, for everyone to hear, that any and all information that could be released was released. If I can infer from what he said, that there were no consultant's reports.

Let me ask him this question: On what basis did you make the analysis that this was the right thing to do? On what basis did government proceed without any economic analysis, without any major studies within the Province, or within the bureaucracy, to see that these services should be moved and the most appropriate way to move them? On what basis did you make the decision?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: I do not know how many times I have to rub it in. I have said to the hon. gentleman on numerous occasions that the government relied upon the expertise of the Public Service of this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: They weren't involved.

PREMIER TULK: They were involved. I say to the hon. gentleman, they were involved in presentations to Cabinet. On what basis did we make the decision? We make the decision on three or four principles, and the principles are these: First of all, you can communicate from any part of this Province, therefore you do not have to have centralized services like you did twenty-five years ago.

We also believe that in certain areas of the Province we can create a critical mass for centers of excellence; like in the case of Corner Brook, that I outlined for the hon. gentleman today. We also believe that you should spread the wealth and try to keep this culture that we have, called Newfoundland and Labrador, alive.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: I have heard people say: What is this going to do for rural Newfoundland? Well, we are going to have sixty-three positions in Grand Falls-Windsor. Would somebody suggest to me that somebody will not drive an hour to work, to Grand Falls, so that some of the smaller outlying communities will have some jobs? Would somebody suggest to me that somebody in Gambo will not drive to Gander, or somebody in Gander Bay will not drive to Gander? Would somebody suggest that people who live on the outskirts of Corner Brook would not enjoy the morning drive to Corner Brook, up that beautiful valley to go to work? Is that what he is suggesting? Is that what the critics of this program are suggesting?

The truth of the matter is the hon. gentleman is trying to hang the welfare of rural Newfoundland, outside of St. John's on: How much is the cost? Are you one cent over, two or three?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Desperate, Mr. Speaker. Isn't it a fact that this initiative was dreamed up by the very planning and priorities committee of Cabinet, with the former Premier, which you were a part of, to cover up and in some way attempt to hide the dismal economic development record of your government? That is what is going on here, Mr. Speaker. Isn't that a fact?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Isn't it a fact that the positions - nobody knew it was coming. The senior bureaucracy were not involved. You can say they were, I will say they were not because I know they were not. If they came out and said so publicly today you would have their heads; and their backsides would be going through the front doors of this place, Premier.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: I ask the Premier: Isn't it a fact that the only reason this was done was because it was dreamed up by P and P of Cabinet, supported by the ministers who are getting jobs, and, in fact, all it is doing is trying to cover up the abysmal record of you and your government for economic development in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, I suppose the hon. gentleman would stand on the other side and say that in 1984, when a Tory administration moved people to Corner Brook, that too, was for politics.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TULK: No, Mr. Speaker. Let me say to him, this is not the only thing that government has done for rural Newfoundland, to try to create some industry, to try to pick a Province that in 1992 - as he knows and I know - found itself at the steps of almost annihilation. The people of Bonavista know what it means.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: Let me tell the hon. gentleman that, indeed, some people in his district might be working at some of those things. Let me say to the hon. gentleman that last week myself and the Minister of Development, for example, met with the Mayor of Bonavista - and I asked her not to say anything about it until after the election because I didn't want it to become a political football at the time. I said: We will put together a group of people to come out and help the people of Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, let me also say to the Leader of the Opposition: the tax credit program - which he applauds - the labor sponsored venture capital fund - which he applauds - and the cut in the payroll tax is obviously designed for small business. The labour market development strategy we have put in place is also designed for small business, for communities in this Province and to help people of this Province; and the list goes on, as he knows. He knows that this government has done very, very well under very trying circumstances in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TULK: Let me also say to him that the people of rural Newfoundland and Labrador know this government is doing it's level best to see that the kind of culture and kind of society that all of us love - every last single man, woman and child love - has done very, very well by it. I think they have shown us on a number of instances in elections.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minister of Health and Community Services. Last week the Minister of Health said he would make government more transparent and accountable to the people so that people would have quick and easy access to information. In particular, government and government agencies would be compelled to release reports dealing with matters in the public interest.

I ask the minister: What are you waiting for? A huge majority of Cabinet supports you, Minister, why don't you do it right now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I asked a question and Hansard will show, for the record, that I asked a question. I will ask him another question. If he doesn't want to answer that one I will ask him another one.

The minister ordered all health care boards in this Province to present a three year plan to reduce their operating deficits. They were to be completed and submitted to him by October. We have reports from the Western Health Care Corporation, the only one that was drawn out under public pressure. I now ask the minister: Will you immediately release the reports on the three year plan for every other health care corporation?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate being asked to release something instead of just a general statement. The issue, again - and obviously and unfortunately the Opposition critic for Health and Community Services has not followed what we have been doing since the budget last April.

In the budget last April we did indicate that we would ask every one of the health care boards - because they were all running some level of deficit financing with respect to their annualized operations - to submit to a review of their operations. We even hired a special consultant and advisor to go work with them, Mr. Abbott, who had done a piece of work and submitted some documentation to verify exactly what the status of the operational budgets were for each of the institutional boards in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, that information was provided to the Department of Health and Community Services, and to each of the boards. It is being used today, as we speak, so that in working sessions the staff of the Department of Health and Community Services and the staff of each of the institutional boards who are interested in doing something about the beneficial and improved health care of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - they are not interested in playing politics with it; they are interested in doing something about it. They are in possession of the documentation that is being used to work through a process so that they can, hopefully, come up with a three year plan, like the Western Health Care Corporation did.

When the Western Health Care Corporation did achieve its three year plan, we released the plan. We released all of the supporting documentation, including the Atkinson Report, and we will follow, exactly, the same process if and when the other nine boards come to a conclusion of a satisfactory three year plan.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There being only three minutes remaining in Question Period, the Speaker will now go to the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Premier concerning the relocation plans of this government for public services. This decision was made without previous or serious preparation, without any consultation with the Public Service, and at great costs.

Minister, the Premier said today that the estimates of government continue to be refined. I wonder if he could tell us today exactly what the current estimates are for the cost - I do not want him to tell us what they are not. Tell us the current estimates government has for the cost of this program, including the capital cost, including the costs of relocation of Government Services, and the cost of looking after employees?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me just say that the current estimates of the - and I am glad he used the word, estimates, because that is the word he should use; because things are changing as we try to, again, help our employees adjust to the situation more - as we put in place more measures to help our employees adjust. Things are changing; but I would say to him that the current estimates are slightly higher. I do not have an exact figure for him, but I will give him an exact table. Once it is available, I will table it in this House. In my own estimation and in looking at all the figures and talking to the senior officials of the department, they are slightly above what the original estimate was.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Clearly, any expenditure by government that is budgeted is an estimate. The minister has not told us what the actual estimate is.

I am going to ask him another question, aside from the expenditure of unbudgeted government money here, we are talking about employees being affected. Will the Premier and the government, today, give a guarantee to employees in the Public Service to be affected by this relocation plans of government, that they will not be detrimentally affected? In other words, if there is no other job for them to go to, without losing their employment, if there is no other option available, will the Premier give a guarantee today that these employees and their families will not be detrimentally affected by the government's plan?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Speaker, why doesn't the hon. gentleman stand up and say: Cancel the program.

Let me say to the hon. gentleman what I will say to him. I cannot guarantee, as I said at the beginning of this thing, a job for every person who is affected by this initiative. Let me just say to him, we started off with some 275 positions that we were going to move. At the present time, we are looking at 193 people who we are dealing with at this point in time, and there are approximately 160 vacancies out there. There could be 162, 158, but there are 160 vacancies that we are presently working with, to match those 193 people into them. We are taking other initiatives as well, I say to the hon. gentleman, to try to fit as many of those people as we can into jobs that they need to be fitted in, and we will continue to work at it. That is the reason why the budget will keep changing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER TULK: That is the reason why the budget will be changing, because we want to treat people in the appropriate fashion to try - for example, if I could, by leave, just take a minute.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TULK: If I could, by leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the Premier have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

PREMIER TULK: Okay. Sorry about that, Jack.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

Notices of Motion


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Family Law Act." (Bill 43)

Furthermore, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Provide For The Recovery Of Tobacco Related Health Care Costs." (Bill 41)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act." (Bill 20)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Trustee Act." (Bill 37)

Also, Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Prepaid Funeral Service Act." (Bill 45)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997." (Bill 44)

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Service Charges Act." (Bill 40)

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to Consider Certain Resolutions Relating to the Granting of Supply to Her Majesty, an Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for Defraying Certain Additional Expenses of the Public Service for the Financial Year Ending March 31, 2000 and for Other Purposes Relating to the Public Service.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to Consider Certain Resolutions Relating to the Raising of Loans by the Province, an Act to Authorize the Raising of Money by Ways of Loans by the Province.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to Consider Certain Resolutions Respecting the Imposition of Taxes on Income, an Act Respecting the Income Tax Act.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House will resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to Consider Certain Resolutions Relating to the Advancing of Guarantees of Certain Loans, an Act to Amend The Loans and Guarantee Act, 1957.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce the following private member's resolution:

WHEREAS the equalization program provides substantial benefits to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and contributes greatly to the funding of provincial programs such as health, education and social assistance; and

WHEREAS changes to the equalization program are necessary to ensure a greater share of the revenues from resource developments are used directly to enhance our economic prospects and provide quality programs for our residence; and

WHEREAS the people of Newfoundland and Labrador wish to ensure that they benefit to the greatest extent possible from the rich resources; and

WHEREAS we want to ensure that the disparities that exist between this Province and the rest of Canada are reduced as quickly as possible.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the House endorse the efforts by the Premier and Minister of Finance to seek changes to the equalization program which will strengthen and enhance the program to make it work better and be more responsive to the needs of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Smoke-Free Environment Act." (Bill 38).

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will also on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Control Act." (Bill 39).

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Petitions


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition. I will say, first of all, that this is not in the form prescribed by our rules so I ask leave of both sides of the House to present this petition.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, this is a petition signed by some 11,000 people in the region of the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital in Stephenville who are very concerned about the fact that the plans for the hospital do not include a kitchen. This is a move being made by the government.

I will read the petition, which says that the quality of food is of vital importance to patients, residents and staff. The government has announced there will be no kitchen in the new hospital. The food is to be prepared and transported from Bay St. George Long Term Care in Stephenville Crossing, fifteen kilometers away.

We, the concerned citizens of the Bay St. George area, call upon the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to reverse its decision on plans to have no kitchen in the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital which is to be constructed in Stephenville.

Mr. Speaker, the hospital in Stephenville is being constructed because of the need for quality services in the Stephenville area, and to decide to put in place a hospital without the inclusion of a kitchen is an insult to the people of that area who deserve to have a proper hospital facility with proper nutrition and food for its patients.

Mr. Speaker, this government tried to do something similar in Gander a few years ago and thought, in fact, that the smell of bread cooking was sufficient for senior citizens, until public pressure forced them to change their minds.

This government has just told this House that it will spend in excess of $7 million on a relocation plan that is unbudgeted, that is unplanned and, in fact, according to the Canadian Union of Public Employees, whose members will be affected by this decision of government, it will cost in excess of $1 million to move the library services board and operations to the Town of Stephenville.

Mr. Speaker, by using the same money to provide a kitchen facility to the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital, and the jobs that would be saved, the residents of the Bay St. George area would not only have a kitchen and have good, proper food for its patients, but would also, in fact, save the government money that would otherwise be wasted by relocating the services to Stephenville at an increased cost to government.

The people of the Bay St. George area, no less than anywhere else, deserve to have quality services, and those quality services should, at a minimum, include a hospital complete with kitchen facilities.

Orders of the Day


MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: I would like to thank my fans for their support.

Mr. Speaker, because of the nature of this opening we have agreed, or I have consulted with my hon. friends across the way, to concur in eliminating some steps with the introduction of some bills, and they have agreed they would.

The first one I would like is the first reading of Motion 3 on our Order Paper, which is to ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, An Act to Amend The Highway Traffic Act, Bill 26. We would like to have agreement of the House to have first reading of that particular bill.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," carried. (Bill 26)

On motion, Bill 26 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I ask for the same agreement with members for bills that were read today. I shall quote the numbers of the bills:

A bill, An Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act (Bill 20);
A bill, An Act To Amend The Family Law Act (Bill 43);
A bill, An Act To Provide For The Recovery Of Tobacco Related Health Care Costs (Bill 41);
A bill, An Act to Amend The Schools Act, 1997 (Bill 44);
A bill, An Act To Amend The Services Charges Act (Bill 40);
A bill, An Act To Amend The Prepaid Funeral Services Act (Bill 45);
A bill, An Act to Amend The Trustee Act (Bill 37);
A bill, An Act To Amend The Smoke-Free Environment Act (Bill 38)
A bill, An Act To Amend The Tobacco Control Act (Bill 39).

Mr. Speaker, these are the bills on which we would like members to give consideration for first reading.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair does not have the titles of the bills. I wonder if we could do these by just reading the bill numbers?

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice, to introduce the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Family Law Act." (Bill 43)

A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Recovery Of Tobacco Related Health Care Costs." (Bill 41)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act," carried. (Bill 20)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands to introduce the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Trustee Act." (Bill 37)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Prepaid Funeral Services Act. " (Bill 45)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997." (Bill 44)

A bill, " An Act To Amend The Services Charges Act." (Bill 40)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to introduce the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Smoke-Free Environment Act." (Bill 38)

A bill, " An Act to Amend The Tobacco Control Act." (Bill 39)

On motion, Bills 43, 41, 20, 37, 45, 44, 40, 38 and 39 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Motion 2, Mr. Speaker.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

Bill 13. Resolution: To be submitted to a Committee of the Whole House in relation to the advancing or guaranteeing of certain loans.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is a bill that comes into the House annually and provides for the approval of loan guarantees that have been issued over the previous year to various municipalities in the Province pursuant to their requirements to have loan guarantees for borrowings from various institutions, mostly from chartered banks, of course. I suppose there could be some from credit unions, but basically these are chartered bank loans granted to municipalities. Some of them are loan renewals, some of them are new loans they are entering into, but in all cases these are loans we have guaranteed over the past twelve months, and we need the approval of the House in order to give affirmation to the guarantees we have issued.

I think the comment that I would make with respect to this particular bill is: I believe it indicates again very clearly the respect and the support that this government lends to the towns and cities in this Province.

We know that the towns, we know that the councils of cities in this Province, have a very challenging, sometimes a very difficult task, in order to meet the needs of providing public services at the local level against the challenge of raising taxes and the challenge of trying to extract from government grants for various areas of interest that they put forward. Obviously towns cannot always come up with their share of the money that they need to put into those cost-shared programs immediately and so they have to go to the bank and raise the loan. Sometimes they go to the bank and have to raise a loan for the part of the money that government is putting in. We offer a guarantee that effectively takes the obligation off their hands in terms of insuring that repayment is made.

Mr. Chair, these loan guarantees that are noted in Bill 13 - and there is a schedule of them attached - there are six pages of loan guarantees, mostly renewals but some new borrowing for various towns of the Province. I do not think hon. members on either side of the House would want me to bore them with a recitation of the loan guarantees that we have issued over the past year.

AN HON. MEMBER: You did that already, Lloyd. You did that already, thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: I have done that already, I say. Thank you.

I would certainly read the towns that we have guaranteed loans for, but I think in the interest of the greater efficiency of the House I would leave that reading material for a bedtime exercise for those on the other side, and on this side, who otherwise would have dullness in their life to the extent that they would have to revert to this type of thing for entertainment.

It is clear, Mr. Speaker, that government does support the towns in this Province, it is clear that we will continue to support the towns in this Province, and I believe it is clear that in the future there will probably be a greater need for this type of support because of emerging new programs that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, no doubt, will get a chance to advise the House about, in terms of infrastructure, later on in this session.

I would simply, at this point, move that we approve second reading of this particular bill sanctioning the loan guarantees that the Province has put in place.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to say a few words concerning Bill 13, An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957.

Mr. Speaker, when the minister was on his feet he said that he would not want to bore us with reading this schedule here, but he did a fine job of that earlier today when he was on his feet reading the Ministerial Statement concerning the economy in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Hopefully, we will be able to relate one to the other this afternoon.

As the minister said, this type of Bill or a similar Bill, is produced each year in the House of Assembly, for approval of this House, for the municipalities in the Province to have the authority to borrow money and to give these people the loan guarantees for their share of any capital works projects that they do. Oftentimes, different municipalities in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador borrow money to do water and sewer projects, to do road paving, to build infrastructure such as the stadiums, fire halls and what have you.

Although I would say one thing, Mr. Chairman, that this administration has not treated one town on this list very fairly over the past number of years. It goes back to the racket, the fight over the regional fire departments in and around St. John's, the St. John's Regional Fire Department. There is a small municipality - and it is listed here - the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, which has a loan of $42,366 over two years, but this is only a portion of the money they had to borrow to build a fire hall in the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove. Municipal Affairs in this Province would not give that town one red cent towards a fire truck. That is not quite correct. What they did, the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, they went out and borrowed half a million dollars on their own, no money from Municipal Affairs, to buy a fire truck and build a fire hall. I think, after a lot of discussion, we managed to get $10,000 from Municipal Affairs, and other towns, even to buy a fire truck, get as much as $60,000 and $70,000. They had to borrow half a million dollars themselves to get a fire truck and a fire hall in the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, and they were forced into it.

The Department of Municipal Affairs, when they set up the St. John's Regional Fire Department, required certain municipalities in and around St. John's to be part of that regional fire department. It just so happened that the Town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove decided to pull out because they were pressured into a situation where they would have ended up paying more per year for firefighting services if they stayed with that original fire department, so they decided to go on their own. Municipal Affairs said: If you go on your own you are getting nothing. They were getting nothing anyway, Mr. Chairman. Basically, this bill gives authority to the municipalities to borrow funding for such services.

Mr. Chairman, these loans, of course, are often borrowed from the chartered banks. Over the past few years many municipalities were encouraged to pay down their debts, to bring all their debts together, to get away from the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financing Corporation, go out to the chartered banks and do some re-financing.

One of the towns in my district, for example, the Town of Torbay, did what was requested, they paid down their debt to the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financing Corporation. They have been trying to get some money for some major projects in the town over the past few years and they have not been that successful, I say to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Now we have the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program coming down which is thirty-three cent dollars. I would encourage the Town of Torbay, and all towns in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, to take advantage of that. You are looking at thirty-three cent dollars. I mean if they have major projects on the go, they should take advantage of it. I think this Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program is geared, basically, towards health services, such as water and sewer. There are many towns in this Province - as a matter of fact, I think there are some 200 municipalities now, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, that have boil orders out. I don't know if these municipalities can even come up with their share, they certainly couldn't come up with it in the past when it was forty cent dollars or fifty cent dollars, but possibly with thirty-three cent dollars they might have a look at it.

The Town of Pouch Cove, this past year have managed to get some funding for - it was late coming, by the way, Mr. Chairman, but they managed to get some funding.

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: What is your problem? The Member for Twillingate & Fogo - every time now you see the new Premier on television, who do you see perched right behind him like a parrot on his shoulder? There he is, the man there. At least he is getting his mug on television for something. He is managing to get his mug on television, his picture on television, at long last. There is no doubt about that! He didn't get in Cabinet yet. I figured he would be in Cabinet by now. All these acting ministers and he still never got in Cabinet.

MR. REID: Jack, I am closer than you are ever going to be.

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo: Dream on! We shall see after the next election who is going to be where. As a matter of fact, I will make a prediction, that the Member for Twillingate & Fogo is going to be knocking on our door, and another few over there will probably be knocking on our door also. I will say that.

MR. REID: I wouldn't go over there with you. Not likely!

MR. J. BYRNE: You can mark that down. Not likely, for sure, because I won't permit it. I can guarantee you that, it ain't going to happen. There are a couple over there I would consider. Now, I will tell you who they are. Do you want to know who they are?

MR. SULLIVAN: Oh, I don't know. (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, don't tell anybody who they are. I was thinking about a couple of the backbenchers over there who have been hitting their heads off the wall for the past four or five years. After the next election, you know, they are going to be that embarrassed - no, they won't be there then. They are going to be defeated. Okay, I can't do it, they won't be there.

AN HON. MEMBER: We have candidates all lined up.

MR. J. BYRNE: We have candidates lined up. Too late! No, forget it.

MR. REID: Send whomever you new leader might be to Twillingate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Send whomever your new leader might be to Twillingate! That is a decision for the new leader, whoever he or she may be, I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

I will tell you one thing, we saw the Minister of Health - you talk about things being ironic or strange or peculiar or however you want to describe them. He is the Minister of Health now, isn't he, Grimes? There have been so many changes over there. Here is a question for the Minister of Health, the new potential leader of the Liberal Party, the new potential Premier after Christmas.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: He is up. I am just throwing out a few questions to get him thinking, to get the people of the Province thinking, because it is all related to money. We are on a financial bill here now. The Minister of Health has stated publicly that if he is elected the Premier of the Province, he is going to be more open, more accountable and more transparent. So what does that actually say? What he is saying now is that in the past - he has been there for ten or eleven years - the government he was involved in was not open, was not transparent, was not accountable, and they were not good at giving out information, freedom of information. Now, all of the sudden he had an epiphany.

MR. REID: A what?

MR. J. BYRNE: He had an epiphany. Do you know what that is? Do you want me to explain that to you? For the Member from Twillingate & Fogo -

MR. SULLIVAN: January 6th.

MR. J. BYRNE: On January 6th. He is going to now decide to be open and honest with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. What he is saying, basically, is that he hasn't been in the past, that he has not been in the past. That is what the Minister of Health is saying.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Straight talk! No, not him. Is that the fellow who said straight talk? Now, can you believe it? Here is a minister who can stand in this House and argue at any given time that this paper is white, sit down, five minutes after get up and say this paper is black and keep a straight face. That is what we are talking about with the Minister of Health. That is why he is getting so much support on that side of the House, by the way, because he thinks he is another Tobin, that he can talk his way into and out of anything. He had a couple of hard portfolios, Education, Health and what have you, and that is why there are so many behind him.

Now we have the Minister of Mines and Energy, the former Minister of Finance, putting his hat in the ring. I have to tell you one thing though - I will get back to him. The former Minister of Fisheries, the Member for Port de Grave, in a by-election last April, he was out in Trinity North, the then Minister of Fisheries, working his butt off for the person who got elected. The new Member for Trinity North got elected and he can thank - on his knees each night he should be thanking the former Minister of Fisheries, the Member for Port de Grave. My goodness, I was shocked, shocked, shocked when I saw the former Minister of Fisheries announcing that he is going for the Leadership of the Liberal Party, to be Premier of the Province, and you did not see -

MR. FITZGERALD: How many wharves did he promise?

MR. J. BYRNE: How many wharves did he promise? I know he had the trunk of his car open and all that kind of stuff. The Member for Trinity North, the new member in this House, did not support him. I was shocked. I figured if anybody on that side of the House would, it would have to be the Member for Trinity North.

MR. SULLIVAN: Give him leave to stand up and change his mind.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I am not finished with this yet.

The Member for Port de Grave out going door-to-door, community to community, promising the world, delivering cheques, right, left and center to everyone out there, and Mr. Chairman, he could not even get the support of the member that he got elected. Now, that is shameful! That is shameful!

We saw the Minister of Health out there yesterday, and what did you see behind him? Oh my goodness, Mr. Chairman, an array of faces supporting who they feel is going to be the next Premier of the Province. I wouldn't put money on it.

Now we have the Minister of Mines and Energy there and he had the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, and the other one, the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East, he had the two of them there. I can understand the Member for St. George's- Stephenville East supporting him, and I can kind of understand the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island supporting the Minister of Finance because he is his right hand man. Everywhere you see the Minister of Finance you see the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. He is his Parliamentary Assistant. Is that what they call it? That is what he is, right? So, you can understand that. But, the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East supporting the Minister of Finance. That is not a lot of support though, is it? No, not a lot.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Finance?

MR. FITZGERALD: The former Minister of Finance, the real Minister of Finance, but now acting as Minister of Mines and Energy, that is who I am talking about.

Mr. Chairman, all of this relates to this bill because the municipalities in this Province - it is so important who is going to end up as Premier of the Province for the next six months to a year; because, after that, he or she is finished, if the deadline has not closed yet. Whoever that is, they can set an agenda for the municipalities in this Province.

We saw the Minister of Finance, when he introduced this bill, talking about support to the towns. It shows the support to the towns that this Administration has. Again, saying one thing and doing another.

In 1989, we saw this Administration start their cuts to the municipalities in this Province. We saw cuts in the municipal operating grants - down by, I think, 60 per cent.

MR. BARRETT: We gave them a raise.

MR. J. BYRNE: You see, that is the illogical thinking of the Member for Bellevue; we gave them a raise. That is like what you are doing to health. You cut them by hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, give them a little bit back, and you say you gave them a raise. That is not a raise. That is not even putting them where they were before.

The municipalities in this Province have been cut. The MOGs were cut and the road components - remember the road components for rural Newfoundland? They used to give us over $2000 per kilometer and now it is down, I think, to a couple of hundred.

MR. SULLIVAN: It went to nothing.

MR. J. BYRNE: It went to nothing. It was completely wiped out, and they brought it back in and gave them a couple of hundred dollars. They think they were doing a big deal by giving them a couple of hundred dollars, 10 per cent -.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

CHAIR: No leave.

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I am so proud to follow the Member for Cape St. Francis who, of course, was reminding the government of all of the things they have done to hinder the municipalities of this Province. The record of this government as far as municipalities is concerned is one of absolute failure.

We listened earlier today to the Minister of Finance give a mid-year report. I noticed that nowhere in that report was there any mention of what is going on in the municipal part of our responsibilities. I noticed there was an absence.

I hear from municipalities all the time, telling me they have to turn off their streetlights in order to pay their bills. Some of them have had to cut back on essential services. They have had to cut back on snow clearing. This government has reduced the municipal operating grants.

The record of the Liberal Government since 1989 on its role in trying to develop strong municipal units in Newfoundland and Labrador is one of absolute failure. We can look at town after town, and while the population is being depleted by out-migration, this government is saying to these people: You have to pay more taxes, you have to pay higher rates of taxes, and you are going to do it in spite of the fact there is a severe reduction in the jobs available in that particular community.

Today, in the mid-year report, I asked myself: What was in that report for seniors? What was in there for people who are seventy-five years old?

I noticed that, during the recent federal election, the member who ran in St. John's West district was going around and approving some improvements to homes for various people. In some cases people had waited months and months and months, and suddenly they got a little note saying that it is approved now.

Mr. Chairman, I can tell you of a case on Park Avenue in Mount Pearl. A senior couple, a man who is seventy-nine and a lady who is seventy-seven, live in a very poor house. Up until a few weeks ago we had made umpteen requests for them to have improvements to their roof. I can only tell you that they were using a system of eight or ten 5-gallon beef buckets every time it rained; but during the federal election the Liberal candidate came along and said: Oh, by the way, that grant you wanted is now approved. There is $5,000 for you.

The couple said, thank you very much, and then they called me up and said: Harvey, thanks a lot for advocating for us. If Mr. Furey thinks he has our vote, he has something else coming to him.

They welcomed the money, but they disliked the process that was followed. That kind of politics was so evident in St. John's West in the recent election last Monday.

I ask myself: What has been done for municipalities since this government came in?. There was great promise. I remember Clyde Wells in 1989, promising there was going to be a second university campus in Grand Falls-Windsor. What happened to it? What happened to the second university campus in Grand Falls-Windsor? Where is it today? As a matter of fact, the Mayor of Grand Falls-Windsor is negotiating with a university in Nova Scotia to be able to set up a campus in Newfoundland and Labrador. Instead of going to the minister responsible for that district, that Grand Falls-Windsor area, and saying: I wonder if we can get some more post-secondary schooling available in our community from Memorial University, the Mayor of Grand Falls-Windsor is going and encouraging a university out of Newfoundland to come into his particular municipality.

Where is the support for municipalities in this Province? It is certainly not with this government. As a matter of fact, in 1989 the first thing that happened in my part of this Province was that this government embarked on a forced amalgamation program, and we know what happened there. They adopted a forced amalgamation in the Avalon North area. We know what happened in that particular case. They said to people: We do not care what you say; this is what is going to happen. It was only because of the terrific voice that was made by the people of Mount Pearl that there was some stop put to that.

This government's record as far as municipal government is concerned is dismal; cutbacks in municipal operating grants. It is shameful to look at what level of support we were giving to municipalities ten, twelve, or fifteen years ago, and what we are doing today. It is shameful.

I just remind the members opposite to look back to the mid-1980s, to look back at how we were putting money into municipalities. We were saying to them, we will give you a helping hand. When this government came in, they said, let's chop that. Let's increase their taxes. Let's force them to bring in property taxes. Let's go and suck every cent we can out of the municipalities.

That has been the policy of this government. They have gone and they have badgered, and they have really hurt individuals who live in municipalities. Money that could be spent on improving their homes and money that could be spent on improving the quality of living - this government has a history of not being very kind to municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is not a history of which they should be proud. I don't hear too many of them willing to stand up and say they are proud of what they have done, because their track record speaks for itself.

Today, when the Minister of Finance got up and gave his mid-year report, I expected him to say there would be something there for seniors that would help with home heating. I listened carefully and I said: Well, somewhere here we are going to have something come down that is going to say we are going to give some help to our seniors in this Province and other people of low income who this winter are going to have great difficulty in being able to go and pay for their fuel.

I mentioned seniors but I also want to include in that category as well, all low income people, because this winter is going to be very hard on them. I get calls from people all of the time who are saying that they cannot make ends meet on the money that has been allocated to them for assistance and for help with their housing.

I thought there might be something there about what we are going to do about fuel tax. Maybe it is time for this government to compare what they are paying in gasoline prices today in Prince Edward Island with what we are paying in Newfoundland and Labrador. Why is it that Prince Edward Island can still offer gasoline at about 70 cents a liter and we are paying 89.6 cents? Consequently, there is something wrong here. Why is the Government of Prince Edward Island so successful in being able to control pricing of gasoline and gasoline products and this government has been so hopeless and so ineffective in trying to address that issue? We, on this side, last year recommended that we should do something about that particular issue. Nothing has happened.

As well today, I had hoped there would be something in the minister's statement about how rosy things were, something about extra help for students in Newfoundland and Labrador. I am talking about students with disabilities. I am talking about getting some of our schools to have proper access ramps.

What do we hear today in the minister's update about air quality? Over the last weeks, we heard what happened in Conception Bay South when a school did not have adequate air quality standards and students had to be taken out of the school in mid-year and had to be bused into St. John's because this government did not do a very good job in monitoring air quality in that school.

There are so many other things. We heard nothing today in the minister's statement about child poverty. Twenty-five per cent of the students in Newfoundland and Labrador go to school hungry every day. There was no talk of that. All the minister said is that the GDP is doing good. That is fine. GDP is only effective if it is going to have something that is going to affect the lives of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

The children who went to school hungry today are not too concerned about the GDP growth. They want to know if they have anything for lunch. When mom says, I cannot give you lunch because we cannot afford that because the electricity is too high, the cost of fuel is too high, and we have to try to get the car on the road, those are the choices that are being made by ordinary folks in Newfoundland and Labrador this day and every day.

We had hoped there would be something there, some help for municipalities to address the boil order, to try to make sure that there was going to be an ample supply of clean water and pure water. What was there today to help these municipalities? Absolutely nothing. We had hoped there would be some help for municipalities who are trying to get a purification system put in the towns, but we heard nothing. This government's record on municipal monies is dismal.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

PREMIER TULK: A point of order, Mr Chairman.

CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Mr. Chairman, I have to tell my hon. friend from the other side that he should have been out - I do not know whether he was or not - to the reception that the Minister of Municipal Affairs got at the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. When she laid out her program on municipal affairs, they went berserk; they loved her. We had a job to get her out of the hall. They wanted to keep her.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased today to stand and say a few words on Bill 13, certainly as it relates to municipalities in the Province. In the District of Placentia & St. Mary's, I guess, the municipalities are no different than in many other districts across the Province. They are finding it a job to keep their heads above water, so to speak, and it is an opportunity to certainly ask some questions in regard to what this government, in the past number of years, has done for municipalities in this Province.

When we take the situation with municipalities in the Province and we ask ourselves exactly what this government has done, we have to look no further than the out-migration statistics. Just to see what has happened to municipalities in this Province, and why we have municipalities coming to government seeking assistance, is the fact that we have many people who have left the Province, many people who have left these communities, and there is no tax base now within the communities, a diminished tax base within the communities, in order for the towns to raise the necessary funds to give the essentials to the people in the communities. That is not there any more. That is why we have watched, over the past ten years, massive out-migration.

The gall of the Premier to stand up in this House today and talk about all they have done for rural Newfoundland. The present Premier, who was the former Minister of Rural Development, did very little for rural development in this Province. He did very little.

Mr. Chairman, in 1990-1991, we have seen out- migration in this Province of 711 people. In 1991-1992 there were 1,669, and the numbers keep growing. In 1992-1993 there were 3,078. In 1993-1994 there were 4,952. In 1994-1995 there were 6,974 people who left this Province. In 1995-1996 there were 7,436 people who left this Province. This is the Liberal record, Mr. Chairman. In 1996-1997 there were 8,134 people who left this Province, and the Liberal record of doing something for rural Newfoundland continues. In 1997-1998 there were 9,490 people who left this Province. That is the Liberal record. In 1998-1999 there were 5,695 people who left this Province. In 1999-2000 there were 2,510 people who left this Province. There were 50,709 people - and this government, this Premier, gets on his feet and starts saying what they did for rural Newfoundland. I would not be very proud of the record of this government for rural Newfoundland.

Then we have, on the other side of the House and on this side of the House, a leadership contest. When we turned on our TV last week, the new, transparent, Minister of Health and Community Services was down at the hotel to announce his leadership bid and talk about a new era, a new era in politics.

AN HON. MEMBER: Were you down there?

MR. MANNING: No, I had my spies down there, I say to the minister. He had this parade of wannabe ministers behind him.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: When we go out into the district, we will not go down promising fish plants like the member for Fogo did. We had a parade of wannabe ministers trailing in behind the Minister of Health and Community Services, on the announcement of his leadership bid. The next day -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, we had a parade of wannabe ministers, I say. There will be an interesting couple of months coming up now.

Finally, the Member for Bellevue thinks he sees the light. He thinks he is going to have a reason to wear those new suits which are home in the closet. I say to the Member for Bellevue: No, I am sorry, but you have a big problem on your hands. Number one, there is the situation with the Dannys. You do not stand a chance. You are going to be ‘Danonized'.

You have the former Minister of Fisheries who stands up before the television cameras, and who is standing by his side? The former Member for Labrador, Danny. You are not even going to get a chance, I say to the Member for Bellevue. Then we have the other Danny, and time will tell what will happen there; we can't touch that. You will not have a chance there either; the bottom line is that you are not going to have an opportunity - I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo, you are as close to the Premier now as you are going to get.

Mr. Chairman, I will get back to the Member for Bellevue. He thinks that he is going to have an opportunity to wear those new suits that he bought a couple of years ago. When he was out to a meeting in Whitbourne he had to leave and get back to St. John's because he was going to be the Minister of Education. It was a wasted trip then and I would say to the Member for Bellevue, it is a wasted trip now. You are wasting your time.

We have the former Minister of Fisheries who stands alone, but I say to you when the independent poll comes out tomorrow you will see he does not stand alone in the Province. He stands alone on that side of the House. I would say there are a good many members on that side of the House who would not even be here only for the former Minister of Fisheries who was down in their districts campaigning when election time came. We will get back to that at a later date, but there are a good many who would not be on that side of the House only for the former Minister of Fisheries who was down knocking on doors, to the community meetings and so on, on behalf of them. What did you do when you got the chance to stand up and give him a bit of support? You kicked him out. I cannot wait until February 4 or February 5 when the former Minister of Fisheries is sitting down with the former Member for Labrador, Mr. Dumaresque, and is picking his new Cabinet. It is going to be worth the cash because there is no one on that side who will get in Cabinet. He is going to have to come over here and try to get a few of us to go over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: There is going to be no one on that side to even get a look in. There is going to be no one on that side who gets a chance to get in Cabinet. Along with the feelings that the former Minister of Fisheries has for most of you on that side of the House, after what you did to him last month, the former Member for Labrador, Mr. Dumaresque, I am sure when he considers his friends in this world he does not look on that side of the House for them. It is going to be an interesting scenario when he sits down. It is only going to be a short-lived Cabinet anyway. When he sits down to pick out his Cabinet and looks across at the people whom he helped out over his ten or twelve years in politics....

Then we have the Minister of Fisheries who stands alone. We have the Minister of Health and Community Services who brings in the whole parade with him. Then, on Friday, what was the big news on Friday? On Friday past the big news - was it a snowstorm? Was it the first snowstorm of the year? No, that was not the big news. The big news on Friday was the announcement by the former Minister of Finance that he is going to seek the leadership of the Liberal Party. Who did he have standing by his side? When he looked around, he had the Member for Bell Island and the Member for Stephenville East. Thunder and lightening, that is what I call the two of them. Thunder and lightening. They are going to shock the world, the two of them. Thunder down in this end, lightening up in that end, and the former Minister of Finance in the middle.

AN HON. MEMBER: Were you down to that press conference?

MR. MANNING: I have my spies down there too, I say to the minister.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

We had thunder and lightening supporting Mr. Dicks.

CHAIR: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

CHAIR: No leave.

MR. MANNING: I say, tune in, I shall return.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a few minutes this afternoon to talk about Bill 13 as it relates to support for municipalities in the Province. I have heard most of my colleagues, who have already spoken, talk about the various cuts to municipal grants and so on.

There is one point I would like to raise, and it is from one of the municipalities which I represent. The word is that if you have qualified for money under this large expenditure a year ago, under Capital Works, there is absolutely no need of you applying for any of this new infrastructure money that is supposedly coming down from Ottawa. Now, if that is true, then I think it is ridiculous because we all know, on both side of this House - we have all talked about the environment, we have all talked about trying to do something to aid the environment and yet, it is coming out from the minister's department, whether directly from the minister or indirectly, that there will be no money available for any municipality who received money last year under this block funding which aided municipalities. Both of the municipalities in my area, by the way, Mr. Chairman, have qualified for this type of funding, and I can only hope that this is not a case today.

About two weeks ago, my colleague from Harbour Main-Whitbourne and I attended a meeting of mayors in the Conception Bay South central region of my district, and of my colleagues from Harbour Main-Whitbourne. We attended a meeting to hear talks of a new incinerator just maybe being placed in Avondale. Now, there was one very large problem with that. On the table there was laid, by certain councillors who were there, copies of the Harris Report which dealt with the Carbonear-Harbour Grace plan, and how that was denied. Then this Harris Report appeared and got laid on the table and then there was one mayor there from Avondale who talked about another report which was done by a company called (inaudible). I have great objections to that, as does my colleague, because here we were, two sitting MHAs, and there is two, three, maybe four studies being done on the Avondale area and I am not so sure that we agree with what has been proposed. Actually, what has been proposed is to put this new dump in the Avondale region which will certainly affect the Harbour Main municipality's water supply; and goodness knows we have enough problems around this Province today with pretty close to 200 municipalities who are now having boil orders to boil the water. So, now we are going to go out and create maybe this monstrosity.

The one problem with all of that is that none of these other municipalities, Avondale, Holyrood or Conception Bay South, were actually consulted. None of these municipalities were called in for a meeting. None of these municipalities were asked anything. Again, I have to say that to me, that is certainly wrong. If we are going to place such a monstrosity in an area or in a community in this Province then certainly goodness, it calls upon government to go to these municipalities and say: listen, we are considering your area for a, b c or e, f, g, or whatever you want to call it, type project. This did not happen in the Avondale region. I was at the meeting.

I have one citizen, who just dropped in to hear the goings on by officials from the department, who said they would have one war in the Avondale region if anybody ever goes in there to try and build this waste disposal site, and there were all kinds of reasons given as to why it could not go down in the Carbonear-Harbour Grace area. There were all kinds of reasons given for that. I am not so sure if those reasons were really adequate or whether they were not. It could not go in Harbour Grace. It cannot go in Carbonear, and now we find the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs doing another study. The study that they are doing right now is a study to put all the studies together. So, we now are doing a study on studies so at the end of the day Harris and company can file a final study and a final report to government. My colleague and I have both been told that we will at least, this time, not be the two lost sheep or the two forgotten sheep. At least this time somebody will consider giving him and I, a copy of this final report which is to be submitted to government.

I can only trust that this is not a report which will go on somebody's shelf, which will be hidden away and nobody, but nobody will actually have access to it because again, I say to you Madam Chairperson, that to me is wrong, totally ridiculous. I am sure the Minister of Environment - I notice every once in awhile he is nodding his head - knows what I am talking about. If he does not then, as Minister of Environment, it really makes me wonder.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Oh, okay, well then I withdraw that remark.

Again, to take something that is going to burn hundreds of thousands of tons of garbage, and put this in an area, nobody has considered the cost to the municipalities that will now have to truck - if this takes place - their garbage to this particular area. I do not know if anybody has ever looked at or considered how much extra money it will cost all these municipalities in the Avalon region to have to go to Whitbourne.

I seen one mayor there who had figures laid out. You can only imagine the increase these municipalities would have to have in property tax to truck their garbage from maybe as far away as St. John's, maybe as far away as Clarenville, and maybe from the Carbonear-Harbour Grace region into Avondale. This is ridiculous, I say to the Chairperson. It is ridiculous that nobody but nobody has been consulted. We have not talked to the municipalities. We have not talked to the towns of Avondale, Harbour Main, Conception Harbour, Holyrood or Conception Bay South. This, Madam Chairperson, is ridiculous that we are now going to go into these areas and we may just force this particular operation on a municipality. We may force it in an area where a municipality's whole water supply will be affected. If this is what we are doing, then it is ridiculous. I even believe it is ridiculous that such a study was done without the consultation of, first of all, the two members who take in that region. Certainly, it was ridiculous to do it without consulting - not one municipality was consulted or even asked for their input.

We have been told that when this final report is done, we are going to get copies. We have told that these copies should be out some time in January of 2001. We can only hope that we will receive copies of what is supposed to be a final report or a study which is being done to put all the other studies in order, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten; because goodness only knows how many studies have taken place. Goodness only knows how much money this government has spent on these studies. I know they have spent quite a bit of money in the Carbonear-Harbour Grace region. Is it a case of anybody's backyard but mine? If that is the case then we are certainly wrong. We are dealing with people's lives if we are going to build such a structure. We are going to have ash from this particular plant even though it is suppose to be state-of-the-art. We all know what state-of-the-art is. I have a generating station in my district now that is state-of-the-art. Go talk to people who live there, who get up in the mornings and their cars are covered with soot ash. The trees in their yards are covered with soot ash. Go talk to these people and see if that is an acceptable way to live in the year 2000. I say it is not a suitable way to live. I think it is ridiculous that we have done this and it should end.

Again, when we are talking about spending money or approving loans for municipalities, I trust that when we approve these loans we are looking down the road at how much more we may force municipalities in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to have to raise their tax revenue.

It was very interesting to note that there was a chap there who ran for the Liberal Party. He wanted to run for them in the federal election where Mr. Peter Miller ran. Again, Madam Chairman, I have to go back to statements made by Mr. Miller. When I seen Mr. Miller, Mr. Tobin and Mr. Furey stood on the dock in St. John's announcing how they would go to Ottawa -

PREMIER TULK: (Inaudible) the bubble.

MR. FRENCH: The bubble; you might end up in the bubble if you are not careful.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is a bubble.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, you are a bubble. You might end up in a bubble too if you are not careful.

Again, at least our policy was that we would put some money - then we hear motor mouth, Mr. Miller, on saying that we are not going to do this anymore, because he lost. Imagine! Trying to blackmail the people of Newfoundland and Labrador with their own money!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). That was only St. John's.

MR. FRENCH: It wasn't only St. John's. Well, that is true. Peter Miller must have thought that St. John's was in his riding because that is the only place they saw him.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that his time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: I will be back.

CHAIR: The Chair recognizes the hon. Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

I rise today to have a few words and make a few comments on Bill 13, An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act.

I understand, Madam Chairperson, that this is a bill that grants certain awards of money to municipalities here in the Province. When you look at the names of some of those municipalities you can see that - how many municipalities are registered here in the Province? Approximately 300?

AN HON. MEMBER: Two hundred and eighty-five.

MR. FITZGERALD: Two hundred and eighty-five, three hundred.

Madam Chairperson, you will find that there are a lot of municipalities here in this Province that can't access money. You see this when the infrastructure programs are announced and they look at funding one-third, one-third, one-third for municipalities. It might just as well be fifty-fifty or eighty-eighty because a lot of those municipalities don't have the financial resources or the wherewithal in order to go out and provide their share of funding, to be recognized and to be considered.

This is where, I think, we make a big mistake. I think there should be special funding. There should be different rules and regulations for small municipalities here in this Province, I think, in little places like Keels, Duntara, Summerville, Little Catalina and Elliston, places that find it very, very difficult to even maintain the present infrastructure. I know in Elliston right now if they have a problem with their sewer, if they have a problem with their water, the councillors themselves have to go out and look after that problem, look after their (inaudible), look after their freeze-ups and look after other problems by providing free labour because the town doesn't have enough money to look after the maintenance of the infrastructure that they have in those places right now. In fact, I am surprised that we even get people coming out and offering themselves for councils in those small municipalities these days.

One time - and I remember when I was the mayor of my town - there was an incentive there because government reached out a helping hand. No matter what your revenue was, you only had to pay something like 20 or 25 per cent of the revenue that you collected towards your debt. Now, I am not so certain that was the right way to go either, but it was the way that it was in those days. If you owed $1 million, if you owed $20 million, you paid 20 or 25 per cent of your revenue towards that debt. Then all of the sudden Mr. Wells, former administration, stepped up here in this Province and said, we are going to change the formula whereby municipalities have to pay back Newfoundland and Labrador municipal financing. They created this new department and made municipalities responsible for all the money that was owed, started taking away their municipal grants and started intercepting their money, in order for them to collect the money that was owed to Newfoundland and Labrador municipal financing. And if you didn't maintain -

AN HON. MEMBER: There was a formula.

MR. FITZGERALD: There was a formula there, but I say to the minister that a lot of the municipalities couldn't live with the formula because they have no tax base.

If you go to Little Catalina, a municipality with 720 to 725 people, the only industry they have there is one little convenience store. That is the only industry in Little Catalina, one little convenience store. Now, how do they go out and decide that they are going to up the mil rate for businesses in their community? How do they decide that they are going to go out, and in order to make some money to pay back Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financing Corporation that they are going to double the mil rate they are charging on property tax, and they are going to double their poll taxes. Here you have a municipality that I would suggest probably has 75 or 80 per cent unemployment. How are they going to tell the residents in that particular community, who are struggling now to pay their light and fuel bill, and struggling in order to put food on the table, that now we are going to have to double your mil rate, as it relates to property taxes, and we are going to double your poll taxes.

Thank God most of our councillors that serve in those communities are level-minded conscientious people. They saw fit to say to government: go ahead, intercept what money you are going to provide to us through your government formula; go ahead and not allow us to be able to collect money from the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs; go ahead and say that we are not going to be considered for infrastructure money, because we cannot pay our bills. Then we will have to survive, as we are right now, by charging a rate and the only rate that we feel that our citizens can pay.

As a result of that, Madam Chairperson, you will find that those municipalities today are hurting. I don't know how they can continue. I can't see how they can continue on the road that they are on. Somebody is going to have to step up to the plate and realize that there is a vast difference between Corner Brook and Duntara. Somebody is going to have to realize that there is a vast difference between Gander and Keels or Little Catalina or Elliston, because right now those communities are all lumped in together. Government feels, rightly or wrongly, because they are a municipality, that they must pay government back the monies it is owed and they must keep their payments up to date.

I have met with councils in my district many times. I have taken the Eastern administrator here, Mr. Warren, down with me and he fulls understands the dilemma that small municipalities are in, but I am not so sure government realizes it.

I have to give credit to the Premier's Chief of Staff today, when he was the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. While the small municipalities never did get what they wanted and still found it very hard in order to keep up, or even play catch up, the former Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, now the Premier's Chief of Staff, I think understood the situation. I believe he had a grasp on the needs of small communities. He was out there with them, he listened to them, and as a result, I think he did what he could, within the framework that his colleagues would allow him, in order to help those small municipalities.

Come September, hopefully we will see a fair number of people, hopefully we will see a full slate, maybe even more than we need, to have an election in those places and still try to maintain their communities in rural areas. They are going through a tough time.

Most municipalities today - in my area I have thirty-five communities, and the small municipalities, whether they are local service districts or town councils, are surviving on make-work projects. I have thirty-five or thirty-six communities in my district. They are not all incorporated, I say to the minister, but they are communities and they are going through some tough times. I do not have to get into the reason why they are going through tough times because everybody knows what happened in rural Newfoundland. My district of Bonavista South was probably one of the districts, if not the district, that was most affected by the downturn in the cod fishery and the closure of the northern cod fishery back in 1992.

They are going through great changes. When you meet with the people who have offered themselves for municipalities - I think a lot of people here can probably relate to what I am saying because most people here grew up in small communities and a lot of people here cut their first teeth, their first political teeth, by coming up through the process of being elected to the municipal council. They know what it is to go out and have to raise money, knowing the people who come and knock on your door, and knowing full well that they cannot afford to pay their poll tax, they cannot afford to pay their property tax, let alone having to go and double it. It puts municipal councillors in a very, very awkward situation.

I met with one community in my district and they started putting forward a case where they could not pay their bills and the government was intercepting funding that was coming from the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I said: Boys, I will tell you what I would do. You are the people who collect the money, go out and spend the money that you collect to improve your municipality. What are they going to do with you? What is the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs going to do with the Mayor of Port Union if he decides that he is going to spend his money in order to maintain his community. Is he going to go out and put him in jail?

CHAIR: Order, please!

I would remind the hon. member that his time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Just a few minutes.

What are they going to do, are they going to go out and put him in jail? Are they going to go out and say to the mayor and to council, that while what you are doing is wrong, we fully understand, that it is not a misuse of public funds, but the funds are going back into the community. I think that is where they should be spent and that is the only way the communities can survive today in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Madam Chairperson, when you see the debate that took place here today, with the transfer of 278 employees from government out to rural areas - well, it was talked about in rural areas, but it is not rural areas. I do not consider Grand Falls or Gander a rural area. In fact, I don't consider Clarenville a rural area.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the minister, you are right, you are 100 per cent right. A lot of people down in my district go to work in Clarenville, you are right. But you also have to keep in mind that a lot of the people who are probably occupying one of those positions may live out in Conception Bay South, may live out in Whitbourne, or may live out in Bay Roberts. It is not uncommon to see people commuting to and from St. John's, working at government work, living in other places other than the periphery of the City of St. John's or the City of Mount Pearl.

That is why I say that if we were really sincere about rural Newfoundland we should reach out and give in to the rural areas. Because you drive through a place like Clarenville today - and Clarenville, I say to the Member for Bellevue and the Member for Trinity North, if he is here, is a boom town. Clarenville is a little boom town. You go there and you see a big Canadian Tire store being built. Hopefully, some people down in my area will be able to make the trip up to Clarenville to go to work there. You see a new fisheries building being built.

Listen to this one: here is the belief in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Listen to this mindset, I say to the Acting Minister of Fisheries, who should be the Minister of Fisheries, listen to this one: here we are down in Clarenville today, this little boom town, I say to the Member for Terra Nova who knows the area very well. We see today fishery officers in Glovertown in the members district in which there is some fishing, there is a fish plant there, and I am sure there are fishermen in the area too; Catalina, Port Union, and Bonavista, where the fishery officers are located and where they should be. What is happening today? We are building a new building up in Clarenville, I say to the Government House Leader. What we are doing, on one hand here, is we are saying we are going to take the people from St. John's and put them in rural areas and we are taking the people from Catalina, Port Union and Glovertown and moving them up to Clarenville. Is that the way to treat rural Newfoundland? Is that the answer, by taking 278 people here and taking the jobs that already exist in some of those rural areas and moving them somewhere else? Is that the way it should be?

If you are going to build a fisheries building, put it where the fishery takes place, put it down where people can have access to the wharf, access for the people who get up in the morning and go fishing every day.

Southern Harbour is a little fishing community. There is fishing activity in Southern Harbour. There is certainly more fishing activity and harvesting in Southern Harbour than there is in Clarenville, I say to the Member for Bellevue. We have this great big beautiful building and there are people working there. It is nice to see some activity on the go, nice to see some construction on the go. But where are the people going to come from who are going to occupy it? Do you mean to tell me that that fisheries officer, who now makes his home down in Bonavista, is going to get up every morning and commute back and forth to Clarenville? Do you mean to tell me that the fisheries officer, who probably lives down in Happy Adventure or Sandringham or some of those places, is going to get up every morning and drive to Clarenville? I suggest they will not. They may do it for a couple of weeks while they are trying to get a place to live or trying to make the transition to get their family into school. After that you are going to see more barred up houses, you are going to see more vacancies.

I wonder how much thought goes into bringing about some of those decisions that are put forward by government? Because the first thing you do - I mean, if you are a politician, what is the first thing you do? What is the first thing you do to get elected? When you decide you are going to run, the first thing you do is go back and shore up the vote that you feel is yours. You go there first. There is no point in reaching out and trying to get somebody new onside or to change somebody over until you shore up the people who are supporting you. They are important and unless you have those people onside then what is the use of trying to convince somebody else? If we are looking at doing things to create rural renewal, then the first thing we have to do is try to maintain what we have, shore up what we have and then reach out and try to bring in something else in order to sustain the people and sustain the communities.

While Clarenville is doing okay - and by the mere fact of location and the mere fact that it is a government service centre, they will survive. So, if we really and truly want to help rural Newfoundland and Labrador, then we should first of all maintain what we have in those communities and then start to build on it, because if we do not believe in it as a government, then how can we expect other people to buy into it or to believe in it. This is what needs to be done.

That fisheries office that is being build in Clarenville right now should be in a fishing community somewhere. That fisheries office should be somewhere where the activity is taking place. It should be down where you can look out and see the whales blow; Bonavista, Catalina, Port Union. That is where the activity is on the Bonavista Peninsula, not up in Clarenville

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The federal fisheries office in Grand Falls-Windsor should be out of Grand Falls-Windsor as well and should be put out where the activity is. Sure they should. That is where it should be. You are talking the opposite of what your government is doing. You are talking the opposite because those buildings, if you believe in rural Newfoundland and those people, should be located out where the activity is.

AN HON. MEMBER: All of them (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, they are probably from everywhere, but I suggest that probably 80 or 60 per cent of them are living in Grand Falls-Windsor. With the price of gasoline today, people are not going to commute an hour's drive anymore. They are going to look at going where their work is located. That happens with schools, that happens with hospitals, it happens with any piece of infrastructure that you put in a community today.

MR. SULLIVAN: People up my way are moving into the city, a lot of them.

MR. FITZGERALD: Places like Grand Falls-Windsor do not need the Department of Fisheries there. Clarenville, I say to the Member for Trinity North, does not need the fisheries office there. They are doing very well. Even if me or you, I say to the member, deliberately tried to go out and stop Clarenville from growing, we cannot do it. It is going to happen by the mere fact of where it is located. There is nothing wrong with that. Allow it to grow, allow it to be a service centre for the area; but if you have jobs there that are directly related to the periphery of the area; if you have jobs there that are directly related to the activity that takes place in other communities, then that is where you should go and put your activity. This government is not doing that. They are trying to make a feeble attempt to say to people that we are doing it because we are moving a few jobs out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador - and it is not even rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I do not consider it rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The member is trying to justify what his government has done; but I can tell you, I say to the Member for Twillingate, go down to Twillingate and ask your members, ask the people who vote for you, ask the people who are your constituents down in Twillingate or out on Fogo Island, if they agree that the fisheries offices should be located in Grand Falls. Just ask them and see what they will say.

We make the argument -

AN HON. MEMBER: They would rather drive to Grand Falls than St. John's.

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, absolutely, but why put it even in Grand Falls? Put it out in the rural areas.

AN HON. MEMBER: Put it in Twillingate.

MR. FITZGERALD: Put it in Twillingate, certainly; that is where it should be. We should not be stripping Twillingate and stripping Fogo Island, tearing apart Bonavista and Port Union, the few people who are there, and saying: We are going to move you to Clarenville. You are going to Clarenville now because that is where we are building the big office.

It should not be.

AN HON. MEMBER: They are already there.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they are not already there. That is how little the member knows. They are already there, he says. Sir, I will take you down to my district right now and show you four fishery officers who are located down in Catalina and, I suggest to you, they have worked there all their working lives with that particular department. What they are doing is closing down the office in Catalina, closing down the office in Bonavista, moving people up to Clarenville, and that is not right. That is not the way it should be.

We continually make the plea, or I have, by saying the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is a prime example. It is on Kent Street up in Ottawa, the big glass building there. I have been there many times. I think it is Kent Street, is it? You and I went there one day to make a phone call, I say to the Member for Baie Verte. Is that where the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should be located? Is that where those people should be, up in those ivory towers telling a fisherman down in Bonavista, or telling a fisherman down in Twillingate or over in Salvage, that they should only be allowed to build a 34 foot, 11 inch boat? Is that where the decision should be made to tell people how much they are allowed to catch, when they are allowed to catch it, and what gear they should be allowed to use? Is that where it should be located, or is that the reason we are experiencing half the problems that we are experiencing in the fishery today?

Those people have to get out. We have to get the decision makers out to look and see first-hand what people are going through in those particular industries, and there is no reason for it whatsoever. If you are committed to putting something in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, there are lots of things that can be done. That Taxation Centre on Empire Avenue can exist and be just as functional and just as efficient down in Spillers Cove as it can there on Empire Avenue. I can be just as efficient. You cannot get near the place. Did anybody ever try to get in there? As far as you can get is a slot to the post office box.

AN HON. MEMBER: In where?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Taxation Centre on Empire Avenue. That can be located just as well in Spillers Cove as it can right there on Empire Avenue.

Those are prime examples of where there could be new opportunities. You could create new opportunities. It could be the life of the whole Bonavista Peninsula. That is all you would need. You would only need something of that magnitude that would look after the whole peninsula.

I refer to Motor Registration again. Motor Registration can operate and be just as efficient outside the overpass as it can inside the overpass. It can be just as efficient out there. When we have an opportunity to create employment, we should put things out in rural Newfoundland that can function out there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Nobody is talking about moving anything. We are telling you what can operate efficiently. We are not living in a day, today, where to have to get aboard our car and go and do everything. We talk about the information age.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I guess I will, I say to the member.

I have to tell you this one before I sit down. We attended a zonal board meeting out in Musgravetown, my hometown, and they gave us a little chance to speak. I got up and talked about the needs of my district. I talked about how so many people were unemployed, and how something had to be done and should be done to create employment. The Member for Bellevue got up and said: I have a fish plant in Arnold's Cove, I have a refinery in Come By Chance, I have a great ship building, or reconstruction, or offshore oil depot in Bull Arm. I have no unemployment, and that is not bad for a little fellow who is the Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier.

Now, just imagine, that is not bad for a Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier. You would not know but he created the Come By Chance Oil Refinery, and he was the one who made sure that the Bull Arm activity - that we had the Gravity-Based Structure built there. The fishplant was built by him.

I have to refer to the fellow who ran against me in the last election. We had a little debate at our school there. This gentlemen got up and talked about how he built the stadium, the hospital, and the home. I got up - we both had to answer the same question - and I said: I have not built any hospitals, senior citizens' homes or stadiums, but I will tell you what I have built, and that is a good rapport with the people I represent. I built that by being with them and being there for them and listening to them, and taking their complaints right here to this House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: That is the thing that I have built, and that is what people remember. The thing about it, I say to the Minister of Finance, is that it was not the Member for Bellevue's money. The money that was splashed around by the new Minister of Industry and Trade was not the minister's money, or my money. It was the people's money.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you know what I heard? I heard you were a good member. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, you try.

Those are some of the things that are happening out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We do not have all the answers. People accuse us of being negative. They accuse us of being fearmongers, that we going out and playing on the emotions of people; but, I tell you, nobody is going to accuse us of telling a lie. When I stand here in this House, nobody is going to accuse me of saying that something is different from the way it is.

The Minister of Finance knows the way it is. He sat in the chair of a municipal and provincial office in the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. He knows very well the way it is. I will you, municipalities are hurting out there today. Whether we reach out and give them a helping hand and try to maintain them, or whether it is going to be a situation like what happened in Plate Cove, in Plate Cove East and Plate Cove West, I say to the minister. They could not function within the guidelines of the present government, municipal and provincial affairs. They said, if we want to dissolve our council - the only thing we are getting here is water. Half of the community is on water. We cannot afford to pay the taxes that you are looking for. Take our water, relieve the albatross around our neck, and we will pay our fee towards garbage collection and towards waste disposal, and we will survive.

They took the bull by the horns. They went out and that is what they did. They dissolved their council. They are paying their fees now for garbage collection and waste disposal. I have not heard from them since that happened. In the meantime, Municipal and Provincial Affairs will not take over their roads. They wait until the last minute every year, until the snow falls and until the bus driver calls and says: I am not going out on that road anymore. Then someone will make a call from Municipal and Provincial Affairs and say: Go ahead, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, plow their roads and provide ice control, and we will maintain the snow clearing and ice control for the winter months. When the winter is over, then it falls into a state of disrepair again. They will not take over the main road through the community. I have gone and pleaded with them. They are afraid to set a precedence. A precedence has already been set by the policies of this government, I say to members opposite. It is shameful that we do not reach out and help those communities.

When you see people coming forward and offering themselves for council in those small communities - the Member for Terra Nova looks at me because he knows what I am saying is true, because I served in a municipality that is now in his constituency. When you see the Mayor of Musgravetown or the Mayor of Port Union or the Mayor of Little Catalina, and six other councillors come out and offer to get themselves elected, they do not want to become bill collectors. They do not want to get involved in town council affairs to take their neighbors to court. They like to step up, step out and step forward in order to be of some help to that municipality and to create some atmosphere that will allow it to grow, to foster growth, and to help the people who are living there.

Under the present guidelines in Municipal and Provincial Affairs, that is not happening. It is not happening and that is all the more reason why we have to change it, because those are the front-line people. I suggest to you, that you get a lot of calls from people who represent the same people as you do. I am certain that a call from a councillor over in Corner Brook is not an unfamiliar call to your office. They represent the same people; their concerns are the same.

You can imagine somebody like myself, and there are other people here as well who have constituencies with thirty-five and thirty-seven municipalities, who do not have the luxury of calling the public works chairman of your council to ask if they can direct some funding from their budget into another arm of that particular council. They do not have the luxury of having a council meeting to decide whether they are going to take other monies from their budget to put where there is a need. The need has to be responded to by the very same people who go out and offer themselves to get elected.

I have a great fear that if we do not look at the contributions that are being brought forward by the mayors and councillors in our municipalities, especially the smaller municipalities, if we do not reach out and implement some program or some formula whereby it is decided on the size of the community or the budget of the community, then I fear we are going to lose the very fabric that makes rural Newfoundland and Labrador function.

It is an important organization. Government, in their wisdom, have gone out and have tried to encourage municipalities to become incorporated. They have encouraged them to go out and have elections and get people to step forward, and up until now it has not been a great problem. For the most part you might fear that you have a problem, like the fear that I have now, but when the time comes then those people, because they are so community-minded, and because they think so much about their municipality, step up to the plate. They step up to the plate and they want to become part of something. They do not want to become part of something that is going to turn them against their neighbor, or be part of something they do not have the wherewithal within that municipality to solve their problems. They certainly do not have it now.

I suppose, if I was to put one glaring example, it would be the Town of Elliston, that just a few short years ago had to go out and disconnect every streetlight in the community. It was a municipality of about 700-plus people. Today it is down to a little over 300. They had to go out and turn off all their streetlights, allow their taxpayers to walk around the town and drive around the town without having a streetlight

In doing this, they went out one day to cut off their streetlights and then, on the other hand, they had to go out and try to collect taxes. Then you know what they were confronted with. They were confronted with the issue: Well, if you are not supplying the service, what am I paying taxes for?

It is a vicious circle that needs to be looked at, it needs to be reacted to by this government, and it won't take a whole lot of money because other municipalities, for the most part - some of them are probably accessing the infrastructure program and don't need as much help. I say this to the Member for Exploits, who has aspirations of being the next Premier. It is a place where special attention needs to be paid. If you don't do anything else other than highlight the situation - I do not know how well you will do when you get up to make your speech. You are not going to excite anybody, I can guarantee you that. They may go and vote for you because of how you look or how you dress, but you are not going to excite them when you get up in front of the microphone, I can tell you that.

You have the support behind you, and I have every reason to believe that it might be a fait accompli, every reason to believe that you are probably destined for the Premier's chair. I don't know about the member who is sitting to your left here, what is going to happen to him. I don't know where he will end up. I know that he went down to my district for a rally. He went down to Plate Cove for a rally, him and the other gentleman who has aspirations of being the Premier, and eight people showed up.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. FITZGERALD: Eight people showed up. They went down into my district - for the Premier. The Minister of Forestry and Agrifoods and the Minister of Mines and Energy went down into my district for a rally. They rented a hall, and they were calling around all day. In fact, I went down and I met this black truck coming with the big microphone on - the hon. Paul Dicks and the hon. Kevin Aylward - local boy returns home. Local boy returns home, because he has his roots down there.

Have a guess how many people showed up? I told you, I don't tell lies. There were eight people who showed up at the rally. I went and knocked on a lady's door because I was trying to get somebody a job, to get a project on the go. They said: We don't know what we are going to do here tonight because this is the night that the parish hall has their card game. Somebody called and wanted to know if they could have the parish hall. I said: Who is going to show up? They said: Well, the Premier is supposed to be here, the former Premier, and there is some rumor that Kevin Aylward will be here, who has his roots here, so there should be a big crowd. I don't know how many people are going to go to the card game. I called her by name and said: My darling, don't cancel your card game. You go ahead and have your card game. Don't cancel your card game.

Eight people showed up at the hall down in Plate Cove West, not even enough for a good hand of 120. I tell you, they weren't very excited when they left. This was his roots; here is where the man is from. They went down and had this big rally.

The closest thing I saw to it was the room that was booked down at the Delta Hotel or the Newfoundland Hotel for the party which was supposed to happen for Mr. Furey and Mr. Miller - all vacant.

I say to the minister, as he leaves the room, that he didn't excite many people. The eight people who went to his rally down in Plate Cove were not very impressed. That is all who were there. Those things happen. You get people to come out, who you feel are popular, and you feel that they are going to draw a crowd, and you know what happens. People are disappointed because they are from the old school. They are not there any more.

The minister's relatives down in his area think the world of him as a person because he is from down around King's Cove and Stock Cove and that area. They think the world of him as a person but they say: We do not agree with your politics. We are not going to put any effort into coming out to see you. We are not going to be there. If you want to come and see us, then come and knock on our door.

That is how many people showed up, I say to the member.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Which rally? The one that Minister Tobin had? From what I understand, there was a big crowd there. Bonavista is a good place for a rally. If you are going to have a parade or a rally, Bonavista is the place to have it. People come out. If the Minister of Government Services and Lands decided the next night that he was going to have a rally down in Bonavista, he would have gotten just as many people out. It is a good place for a rally. People enjoy politics. There is no more politically-minded community in this Province today than Bonavista. They enjoy talking politics. They enjoy rallies. They enjoy getting out and being part of the process.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I was not part of any rally down there. We went down there one night and had an organizational meeting. There were 125 people showed up. It was not advertised. We just went in - well, it was put on the community channel for a couple of days, from what I understand.

AN HON. MEMBER: It was on the radio, too.

MR. FITZGERALD: It might have been put on the radio.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: We went down to Port Rexton and we drew more people than the Minister of Industry drew. We were in Glovertown and we drew more people there than he drew. I do not know if they were coming to see me or coming to see the candidate. I was not the candidate, I say to the Member for Bellevue. There is a whole lot of difference when your name is not on the ballot.

MR. SULLIVAN: They came out in Bonavista in big numbers for that income supplementation plan.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is right. I will tell you, when we were going around and you fellows were going to bring about that income supplementation plan, the brainchild of Clyde Wells and Dr. Doug Howse, they came out that night.

I will tell you, when you fellows sat around and supported the conservation park, when you sat around and supported the idea of a conservation park, they came out that night up in Port Blandford. They came out that night, as the member knows, up in Musgravetown. They said: Hey, listen to us, Mr. Lush; listen to us, Mr. Fitzgerald. Listen to us. Who else was there? I do not know if Doug Oldford was there or not; I do not think he was. Listen to us. Here is what we do not want, and they stopped it. That is the power of the people. In numbers they rallied together and nothing should be forced down their throat. They stopped it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That is right. You were there as the speaker that night, and I will tell you what, boy, they drifted out then.

I remember a former colleague over there, who was the Member for Terra Nova before the sitting member - was coached by the Premier-to-be - got up in Clarenville and tried to defend it, one real stormy day. I will tell you what, she did not get up and stay on her feet very long before she found out the mood of that crowd.

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It is all about the topic. It is all about support to rural communities, I say to the Member for Twillingate, and deep down inside I know, from private conversations with you, that you do not disagree with what I am saying. Well, you do not jump up and shout it out and holler it out, I can tell you, when he sits down and talks to his constituents and when he sits down and sees the devastation that is caused in places like Twillingate and sees what is happening in rural areas of this Province then he does not agree with having things taken from those areas and moved somewhere else.

So, before we start moving things in let's shore up what we have there first. Let's make sure that we build on what we have. I do not have all the answers. I do not have many answers of what we can do for rural Newfoundland and Labrador, but what I do is provide straight answers as I know them. I do not get up and try to baffle people by talking around the subject. It is surprising you know, how those people who are now offering themselves for the leadership can now be so far removed from the all the bad decisions that were made by this government.

I say to the minister from Exploits - I do not know if he ever sat in opposition. You were elected in 1989.

MR. H. HODDER: But he will.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, he probably will not because he will get defeated and move on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) opposition.

MR. FITZGERALD: He will move on. No, he will not hang around. In fact, there was not a lot of interest to stay where he is. I am surprised he has not gone before this because there was not a great lot of interest there; but I am surprised that other people over there have not stepped up to the plate and taken on the challenge.

MS S. OSBORNE: Like the Minister of Finance.

MR. FITZGERALD: She is coming apart at the seams. It is all a situation where people have been in power for too long.

The Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, you turn on the radio and you hear her people calling and complaining about the people she has on her association, and about the roundabout way they were given the push to get out; people who are very, very unhappy.

There is a great need, Mr. Chairman, out in rural areas. I think we should react to them and we should pay special attention. Those are the places that need attention. While we might turn our back and hope and think that the problem is going to go away, it is not going to happen. We need attention paid to it.

With those few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I will conclude, and maybe I might even be able to adjourn debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I move the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred, have directed me to report considerable progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn and on its rising meet again tomorrow, Tuesday, at 1:30 p.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 1:30 p.m.