December 18, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 48


The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise on a question of privilege today having to do with the comments and contents of the Auditor General's report, which reports on this government's failure to report to this House of Assembly and provide annual reports for departments and agencies of the Crown.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General, in his report, has specifically said, "In order for the Members of the House of Assembly to discharge their responsibility in assessing government's performance, government has to provide them with information that can be used for that purpose. The information should show how much funding was provided by the Legislature, what was planned to be accomplished with this funding, how much of the funding was actually spent and what was actually accomplished. This information should be provided for each government department and Crown agency and tabled in the House of Assembly."

He refers to the democratic system of government that we have, where the Legislature provides the government with the responsibility to govern and manage public resources, and government must be accountable to the House of Assembly for its performance.

What has happened, Mr. Speaker, is that has broken down. We have a situation in this Province where we have, with the exception of the Public Service Commission, no government departments and only nine of eighty-three Crown agencies prepared and tabled annual reports for 2001 in the House of Assembly. Only three of forty-five Crown agencies which received government funding totalling $1.6 billion tabled reports in the House of Assembly for 2001.

Mr. Speaker, this is a breach of privilege of members of the House in essentially interfering with the ability of members of the House to do their duty. I refer you to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th Edition, §92 where it says, "A valid claim of privilege in respect to interference with a Member must relate to the Member's parliamentary duties and not to the work the Member does in relation to that Member's constituency." So it is a fundamental role of the Members of the House of Assembly to hold the government accountable for what they do. If we are not informed on a regular basis as to what government is doing with respect to its departments, with respect to its government agencies, then we are unable to do our job.

On page 25, §97 of Beauchesne, the Speaker in the House of Commons made a ruling on whether or not the government was required to answer written or oral questions. The Speaker said, "While it is correct to say that the government is not required by our rules to answer written or oral question, it would be bold to suggest that no circumstances could ever exist for a prima facie question of privilege to be made where there was a deliberate attempt to deny answers to an Hon. Member, if it could be shown that such action amounted to improper interference with the Hon. Member's parliamentary work."

Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about a simple refusal to answer a question, or not answering a particular question on a particular day. What we are referring to here, and the Auditor General has pointed out, we have a wholesale refusal by inaction of the government to make itself accountable to the Legislature by not providing annual reports from departments, by not requiring Crown agencies and departments - Crown agencies who are receiving money from this Legislature - to provide reports to this House, and not allowing me and other Members of the House of Assembly to do their parliamentary job, which includes holding the government accountable for the expenditure of public money for the activities of government and for all of the matters that are given to it.

In fact, the Auditor General also points out that this is the only jurisdiction in Canada where there is no form of any legislative requirement requiring departments and Crown agencies to table some form of annual report on their operations.

So it is all the more important, Mr. Speaker, where there is no legislative requirement, that the privileges of members and the role of members be acted upon by government by insisting and ensuring that members have access to information so that they can ask the questions, so they can hold the government accountable. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question of privilege, and ask you to so rule.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to support the point of privilege raised by the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi. It is the exact point that we made, or partially the point that we made, last week, on Tuesday, December 10. The difference today, Mr. Speaker, is that we had yesterday tabled in the House the Auditor General's report which validates, I believe, and vindicates the assumptions that we talked about.

First of all, just to add, I think, and hopefully enhance what the member has said, I would like to site Maingot, a section on page 189, where he talks about alleged acts of interfering with members's duties. It says, "ALLEGED ACTS MUST RELATE TO A MEMBER'S PARLIAMENTARY WORK". Clearly the nonconformance of providing not only important information but essential information to this House for members to do their parliamentary work was denied to each and every member of this House.

He said, "WORDS OR ACTS MUST AMOUNT TO CONTEMPT". We believe, Mr. Speaker, as the member has just pointed out, that, based upon the information tabled in the Auditor General's report, that the circumvention of this place and the circumvention of not providing the necessary and essential information to members in this House does, in fact, hold this very place in contempt.

He goes onto say, "But it is because of its nature that a valid question of privilege arises only infrequently. There must be some act that improperly interferes with the member's rights...". We believe, in this case, as the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi has point out, that our rights have indeed been interfered with.

It says, "The interference, however, must not only obstruct the member in his capacity as a member, it must obstruct or allege to obstruct the member in his parliamentary work." Any unbiased reading of the Auditor General's work clearly demonstrates that not only our work as a member but our sworn obligation to do what is necessary within Parliament was also interfered with and circumvented.

I rise today to support the point of privilege raised by the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, let me say from the outset that I do not consider this to be a point of privilege, and I want to make the case to Your Honour. It is a matter of the hon. members opposite grandstanding and trying to make something out of the Auditor General's report.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. LUSH: First of all, Mr. Speaker, there is no legislative requirement that the departments and agencies referred to report to the House. Therefore, if there is no legislative requirement, how can members say that it is affecting their duties when there is no legislative requirement? They can ask that there be legislative requirement. They can ask that. They can promote that and encourage that, but they cannot call it a point of privilege because it does not exist. If the legislative framework were there and government were not following that, they were not following their own laws, not even that would be a point of privilege because a matter of law, as I pointed out some days ago, is for the courts to decide and not Mr. Speaker.

What we are involved with today is an issue for Mr. Speaker and, in order to decide on this, Mr. Speaker has to decide that this is a prima facie case and that it is brought to the House at its earliest time.

Mr .Speaker, I would suggest to you that this has been going on in this Province ever since we have had Responsible Government, that these Crown agencies have not been obligated, by law, to report to this House. If we were breaking our own laws, it would be a case before the courts, but we are not even breaking them. It is not to that point, because we do not have the law. The hon. gentleman could ask that we have the law, but in the absence of the law, Mr. Speaker, this Point of Privilege amounts to nothing other than grandstanding by people opposite.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will take the point raised by the hon. Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi under advisement.

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On December 6, Mr. David Smallwood, President of the Corner Brook Forest Capital Committee, and Corner Brook Mayor, Priscilla Boutcher, presented Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, with a symbolic Christmas Tree and a piece of Western Newfoundland artwork by Summerside's Niki Tobin, to commemorate Corner Brook's year long reign as Forestry Capital of Canada.

As members are aware, Corner Brook was designated the 2003 Forestry Capital of Canada by the Canadian Forestry Association, a designation that recognizes a community which is noteworthy because of its commitment to and its dependence on its forest resources.

The Christmas Tree presentation is symbolic in nature and represents the final official duty of the Corner Brook Forest Capital Committee before it passes over its title to Gatineau, Quebec, the 2004 Forest Capital of Canada.

Throughout the year, the Forest Capital Committee hosted a multiplicity of events including the Canadian Lumberjack Challenge at Marble Mountain and work on its legacy project which entails the development of outdoor classrooms at three Corner Brook schools.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this hon. House to join with me in congratulating the Corner Brook Forest Capital Committee on its fine work and for having brought distinction to the City of Corner Brook.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise in this hon. House today to welcome three national judges of the Winter Lights Celebrations to the Bay Roberts region of the Province.

Bay Roberts has entered the National Illumination competition this year. The competition, with a committee based in Ottawa, encourages Canadian communities of all sizes to celebrate the holiday season with lights, and at the same time create a tourist attraction.

Mr. Speaker, residents, businesses, schools and organizations in the area are asked to make that extra effort to have their properties decorated for the town's fifth annual lights festival.

Bay Roberts is nominated in the category between a 5,000 to 10,000 population, with the only other provincial nominee in this category being Labrador City.

Mr. Speaker, the competition not only judges communities on their lights, but also considers a number of Christmas activities that are taking place in the community. Their evaluation includes consideration of design, originality, impact and scope.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all members of this House, I want to welcome those judges and to say to the people in that community, tonight is the night the judging is being done and I hope Bay Roberts will do extremely well in this competition.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, if I could have leave to give a statement for my district?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity.

Mr. Speaker, on Friday past I had the opportunity, along with the Minister of Education, to attend the re-dedication of two schools in my district. Appalachia High School in St. George's has had a $4 million redevelopment and it is now a modern high school facility. Special thanks to the parents committee who worked with the school board to make these improvements a reality.

Mr. Speaker, the school also dedicated the new gym in the name of the late David Russell, who contributed much to Stephenville Crossing. Also, the new library was named after the late Julia Swyer, who contributed tirelessly to the youth of St. George's and region.

Mr. Speaker, later in the afternoon, we attended the ceremony at Belanger Memorial K-12, in the Codroy Valley. This $3 million plus investment could not have happened without the parents committee and teachers. A room was dedicated to the late Minnie White, who contributed greatly to music in the Codroy Valley and throughout the Province. Also, a room was dedicated in the memory of the late Joe McIsaac, a former School Board Superintendent in the region who contributed greatly to the Codroy Valley.

Mr. Speaker, these two schools are now better equipped to serve our youth in the District of St. George's-Stephenville East and I thank the Minister of Education for her ongoing efforts to better education.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House of Assembly of an exciting new partnership between the Department of Education and the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

A Memorandum of Understanding has been signed between the department's Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation and the NLTA's Virtual Teachers' Centre. This MOU establishes an effective collaborative process for offering on-line professional development to teachers throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The MOU will allow the Department of Education and the NLTA to integrate the work they would otherwise do separately and ensure that on-line professional development is developed and delivered in a co-ordinated manner.

Once the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation and the Virtual Teachers' Centre were established, it was evident there could be some overlap in the services that each of these agencies provided. We decided together that they would focus on different, but complementary, aspects of professional development. The mandate of the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation is to focus on professional development related to the Department of Education's curriculum implementation and assessment. The Virtual Teachers' Centre addresses the broader spectrum of teachers' professional needs. Through the partnership we are announcing today, we will enhance and co-ordinate our efforts to ensure the professional development needs of our teachers are met.

In order to further facilitate cooperation between the Department of Education and the NLTA, we have agreed to cost-share the services of a coordinator who is responsible for the development and delivery of on-line programs and services. I am pleased to announce that Alex Hickey, coordinator of the Virtual Teachers' Centre will now work with the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation to co-ordinate all on-line K-12 professional development initiatives. Mr. Hickey is with us today in the gallery and is joined by Mr. Winston Carter, president of the NLTA, and Mr. Ed Hancock, the NLTA's executive director.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Also with us today are Dr. Harold Press, deputy minister of the Department of Education, and Mr. Gerald Galway, assistant deputy minister, who oversees the operation of CDLI.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: I add that Mr. Hickey's appointment is, according to the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the first time anywhere in this country that a government has partnered with a teachers' association to work together on teacher professional development to such an extent. I am pleased we are involved in developing this ground-breaking partnership which shows once again that Newfoundland and Labrador is leading the way in the development of creative initiatives to improve learning.

Mr. Speaker, this arrangement will not impact the traditional methods of professional development delivery. The Department of Education will continue to conduct intensive in-servicing as required to ensure our teachers are introduced to new curriculum and other advancements in education.

The department has embarked on several initiatives to improve professional development for teachers including: An annual investment of $4.4 million on professional development; the addition of three school days for teacher in-service; and, the establishment of a Professional Development Alliance with representatives from school boards, the NLTA, Memorial University and the Department of Education.

As many of you have heard me say, we have one of the most highly-qualified teaching forces in the country. This partnership ensures we will continue to offer our students access to good teachers who are role models, motivators and mentors.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly would like to thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement.

 

Certainly, I stand, and I am sure I speak for all members on this side of the House, in saying that we, too, are pleased that the department and the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association are into a partnership on this particular item. I say to the minister, that when teachers partner with anyone, I am very, very encouraged because, I say, Mr. Speaker, when teachers are at professional development they will do it, they will do it right, and the job will be done.

With regard to the Virtual Teachers' Centre, for years now that has been up and running and, certainly, it is a practical site. It is a site for teachers and by teachers. I certainly would have to compliment Mr. Hickey for the tremendous job that he has done in bringing this to the teachers of this Province. To see him appointed as sort of a go-between or coordinator, I am very, very encouraged and would, certainly, offer my congratulations to him and, of course, to the NLTA for bringing this about.

Again, I cannot speak enough about professional development, and I would certainly join with the minister in saying that this is a very, very positive development.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We certainly feel that this is a positive development for the notion and the availability of teacher development in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Professional development for teachers is very important, particularly where we have so many advances in curriculum and interest amongst teachers to be up-to-date with the very latest of information. The fact that they were able to co-ordinate this with the Virtual Teachers' Centre is a very positive thing, and I want to congratulate those who helped to make it possible.

I would say it is good to see the NLTA and the government working together and being cooperative. I do not know why that was, but when the Premier was President of the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association it wasn't such a happy relationship for some reason or other. Maybe things have changed and the government and the NLTA are working together, at least on this project, and that is certainly a good thing.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are for the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, this year's Auditor General's report can only be described as a scathing review of a government that is clearly out of control. The themes that have emerged this year are not new but are recurrent. Year after year, report after report, it talks of a government that breaks the law and withholds information, but also reveals that numerous opportunities exist for political favouritism.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General specifically says that there is "...a significant lack of information which is required by the Members of the House of Assembly in order to assess Government's actual performance...". The previous Auditor General says that they are the least accountable government in the country.

Mr. Speaker, with such comments, would the Premier explain -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. WILLIAMS: These are not funny matters.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, with such comments, would the Premier explain how he can look the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in the eyes and sincerely say, that you are truly the most open, accountable and transparent government since Confederation?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We say that with pride, because it happens to be the truth, Mr. Speaker.

The fact of the matter is, again it is unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition continues to use a tactic by using words that are other than those used by the Auditor General. The Auditor General does not use language suggesting that anybody is breaking the law. That language has never been in an Auditor General's report. As a matter of fact, I challenge members of the media, members of the House of Assembly, anybody, to find an Auditor General's report, since Confederation, that did not find at least one instance where a government contravened the legislation, contravened one of the acts sometime during the year. There are millions of financial transactions made in a year and not every single one of them is done 100 per cent in compliance with the legislation, but there is no breaking of the law and there has not been in this instance. It is unfortunate that the editorializing, even of a headline in the paper today, picked up the language of the Opposition because that is not the language of the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker.

I challenge anyone to suggest that it is because it is not and nothing could be further from the truth.

The most telling thing, Mr. Speaker, is in the preamble that the Leader of the Opposition used himself. He said that this has happened year after year after year. The language has been the same in the 1950s, in the 1960s, and in the 1970s, when the Tories were the government with Premiers Moores and Peckford; and more damning language then, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, than anything that is in a report today. This is far from a scathing report. We appreciate and respect the job and the work of the Auditor General. We -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - cooperate with the Auditor General and we will continue to do so, Mr. Speaker, out of respect for that Officer of the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Lets deal with some specifics, Premier. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General talks about government agencies spending and borrowing money without legislative authority. In fact, four agencies borrowed $43.8 million when they clearly did not have the authority to do so. They contravened the Financial Administration Act, they violated the Financial Administration Act,. they broke the law.

Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain, and please tell the people, if his Cabinet was aware that four government agencies were breaking the law by borrowing $43.8 million without legislative authority? Mr. Speaker, I do not need to point out that the taxpayers will have to pay this money back.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is interesting to note, just for the political commentary that the Leader of the Opposition might be interested in, that the kind of language he used in his preamble, with respect to the scathing report and so on, was on the broadcast news last night, as well, attributed to Premier Lord's Conservative Government in New Brunswick. So, Mr. Speaker, it is not something odd and strange. As a matter of fact, Premier Lord was here, I believe, on a fundraising mission with the members opposite just a while ago.

Mr. Speaker, the specific that is mentioned in this question with respect to the four Crown agencies: The explanation, Mr. Speaker, has been given to the Auditor General because we respect and appreciate the work of the Auditor General on behalf of all of us in this Legislature. We cooperate with the Auditor General. It has been pointed out to the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker, that contrary to his view, the four agencies that he referred to in his report are all constituted in their own legal right under the Corporations Act. They borrowed on their own right, which they have a right to do under the Law of Newfoundland and Labrador, and, in fact, the people of the Province are responsible because the government guaranteed their borrowing and tabled the guarantees in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: That has been explained to the Auditor General and it is completely and exactly the opposite of what the Leader of the Opposition would betray it to be.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states in his report and I quote: As in other years, my office continues to identify instances where government and its agencies contravened the Public Tender Act. He also identified numerous concerns with the way that other contracts were awarded. This act, Mr. Speaker, is intended to create a level playing field for companies doing business with government, and not for those companies with strong Liberal ties.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier explain to the people of this Province why the Minister of Environment ignored the very clear recommendations of a bid evaluation committee not to award the tire recycling program to the eventual winner, and despite specific written advice to the contrary from the chair of that evaluation committee? Isn't that successful bidder the same person who obtained the beverage container contract as well?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition thinks he has something. Let me tell you, the Government Purchasing Agency ruled that the tender should be awarded, and that is what this department did. As a matter of fact, the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board expressed concerns - they were addressed - but the tender itself, the Government Purchasing Agency approved and indicated to our department we had to let the tender. We did, and, not only that, that contract is working extremely well and is doing very well, contrary to the wishes of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General's report specifically stated that the recommendations were ignored. In fact, it is funny that the minister did not mention that they were going to set up the processing in his district, in Stephenville. He failed to mention that in the answer to the question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary now; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, according to the Auditor General's report the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board felt that the company, which was eventually awarded a contract, did not have experience in tire recycling to successfully execute that contract.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier explain why the board was never given any explanation by the minister as to why their serious concerns had not been addressed; and, would he also confirm that, as a result of awarding this contract, another interim contract was cancelled, resulting in a legal claim against the government for $600,000 for loss of profit?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Multi-Material Stewardship Board is responsible for administering contracts. The Public Tender Act is governed by the Government Purchasing Agency. They are the ones who outlined to our department the approval of this contract. That was communicated to the Stewardship Board. Also, we have felt for some time a need to address the fact of administrative problems at the Stewardship Board. That is why we have also announced a chief operating officer, which we announced yesterday in this House of Assembly. That is going to be addressed now for the coming year.

So, Mr. Speaker, despite the innuendo of the Leader of the Opposition about some politics, let me tell you, in all my years in this House and in the Cabinet, I will tell you this now: That contract was done properly. As a matter of fact, the interim agreement that the Stewardship Board tried to enter into, they did so without the authority of the government. That is why we have a new chief officer to oversee the operations of the Stewardship Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the Premier or the minister would like for me to talk about some violations of the Public Tender Act.

Mr. Speaker, under the beverage container contract program, there are four contracted service areas: depots, transportation, processing, and information systems. There were violations of the Public Tender Act in all four areas, and in some there were multiple violations.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier please tell the people of Newfoundland and Labrador what gives him the right to break the laws of our Province, the laws which he, as Premier, is placed in a position of trust to uphold? Is he above the law, or are you just out of control, Premier?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Stewardship Board had extended two contracts: one for beverage containers and one for transportation of beverage containers. The reason they did that - we asked them to do that, they were requested to do so - was because the Avalon Waste Management Committee brought the report in this fall. The recommendation of the Chairman of the Avalon Waste Management was to extend the contract so that, for waste management for the coming two years, as we planned, waste management all over the Province, Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the integration of the beverage container processing to all the regional waste management authorities in the Province, which makes sense, Mr. Speaker. That is why we have a chief officer appointed to review this matter, and that is exactly what is occurring. As a matter of fact, the beverage container processing is going to hit 70 per cent this Christmas, in the processing side, one of the most successful processing programs in the country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is interesting that the Premier will not answer a question that alleges that he either broke the law or is out of control. He won't even stand up and answer it. Imagine!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In November, 1996, government established a Waste Management Trust Fund to receive all excess monies from the beverage container contract program. Guidelines for approving projects from this fund are outlined under the Waste Management Act.

Mr. Speaker, would the Premier please explain why the minister ignores the guidelines and recommendations of the board, and awards contracts from the trust fund without providing documentation, without following assessment criteria, without complying with the program guidelines, and without addressing the board's concerns?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the approval of projects out of the Waste Management Trust Fund is the responsibility of the Minister of Environment. The minister and the MMSB have jointly established guidelines and criteria for screening applications to the fund. This is for guidance only, and the actual legislative authority for the minister is found in section 10.4 of the waste management regulations.

All approvals by the minister were done in accordance with the regulations, taking into account the Stewardship Board's guidelines and government's overall waste management objectives, and, Mr. Speaker, I will bring all of the approvals right here to this House of Assembly. Not only that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: There were four of them, Mr. Speaker. They are all non-profit organizations.

Not only that, Mr. Speaker, unlike the Opposition, the contract that did get awarded, the other earlier contract he was talking about in Stephenville, the Opposition critic's only criticism when we announced the contract for tires was: Why are they doing it in Stephenville?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, under the Waste Management Trust Fund, I guess, or more appropriately named the wasteful mismanagement slush fund probably would be even better, I would think, the minister appointed a special advisor at a cost of $132,400. The salary was funded through the trust fund administered by the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board; yet, the Auditor General says that the board was not asked to assess the hiring, did not know the name of the person employed, nor were they aware of the duties and responsibilities of that particular person.

Mr. Speaker, could the Premier explain to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador how a board, which is set up to administer a trust fund, would not even know the name or duties of a person who is being paid $132,400 from that trust fund?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the contract that was entered into is, a special advisor who goes back - as a matter of fact, gives advice between the department and the board. Again, we have just appointed a chief operating officer to go in and ensure that everything is being done in the appropriate manner, and we feel everything has been done, and we are looking forward to moving on with waste management.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

The common parliamentary means of providing spending authority to government is through annual passing of Supply where members here in this House of Assembly can vote and approve that spending.

Now there are two instances, Mr. Speaker, where government can spend public money without prior debate and approval. That is through special warrants, and in both cases the necessity must be urgent.

Since 1997, the Auditor General's office has indicated that they have reported that, out of that time, special warrants amounted to $483.6 million - almost $300 million, $299.7 million - spent in contravention of this act; in other words, breaking the law of the Province.

This past fiscal year alone this government broke the law, according to the Auditor General, to the tune of $33.1 million. I want to ask: In light of year after year, after repeated warnings from the Auditor General and from the Opposition here, why is this minister and the government still breaking the law?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is not breaking the law. We have addressed this issue here in this House over the past week or so in debate on numerous occasions. There is always room for a difference of opinion as to what urgency means. We have a definition, as government, based on the circumstance at the time. The hon. the member, yesterday, talked about urgency as being something like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. I could refer to it and contextualize it a different way and say this: That to a Floridian, the storm we had last night was the storm of the century, but to us in Newfoundland it was just a regular occurrence in winter. So, it is a matter of opinion.

With respect to the issue that the Auditor General raises, we recognize the issue, we recognize what he has said. We take the view, because it is the position on which we made the decision, that there was a sufficient degree of urgent reason to issue those warrants at the time when we issued them. We make decisions on behalf of the people of the Province because we are government and we will be held accountable by the people of the Province for the decision we have made in the democratic process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Auditor General indicates that $4 million out of those warrants on education was pertaining to the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation. The department said it was done in the best interests of the public and by availing of year-end flexibility. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor has often cited that this flexibility allows government to manipulate and get whatever desired result it wants. The Auditor General said the need was not urgent because the Newfoundland and Labrador Investment Corporation had a line of credit that was not fully used.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary and I ask him to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: They had the cash flow at the time when they did it. It was not urgent.

I ask the minister, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister rise and tell this House the real reason for such blatant violation of the law?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe the hon. member, in part, answered his own question when he said the Auditor General has often. The Auditor General has probably, for the past fifty-odd years, taken issue with governments of the day issuing special warrants at a particular point in time based on a particular set of rationale that the government, at that point in time, may have used. Nothing different happened last year. The only thing different that really has happened, Mr. Speaker, I believe, over the last number of years with respect to the issuance of special warrants, is that this government, since 1989 when this party formed government, have probably reduced the use of special warrants by about 90 per cent over its previously seventeen-year historical use. What has happened with respect to special warrants over the last year and over the life of this government is that we have been conscious of the real reason why they should be used -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. MATTHEWS: - and we have consistently reduced the usage of these special warrants. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with them. I dare say we will continue to use them in the future, and future governments will to the extent that they think is necessary.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to take his seat.

MR. MATTHEWS: We respect the special warrant procedures and we use them as prudently as we can.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states again this year, that the Province did not comply with the Public Tender Act in awarding a $17.8 million contract for the Strait of Bell Isle ferry service and that the contract was awarded to a bidder who did not comply with the tender specifications.

Why did the government break the Public Tendering Act in awarding this contract? Was it to do a favour for a well-known Liberal supporter who wanted to get this contract?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is very, very clear that there was no contravention of the Public Tender Act. Do you want me to talk about telephone contract? I could answer it if I get to talking about the telephone contract.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: The hon. member should keep quiet. The hon. member should listen to the answer to the question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. BARRETT: There was no contravention of the Public Tender Act. The tender was awarded on condition that the boat be able to dock. I am happy to report to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, in fact this boat has docked 3,000 times since that time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will say to the minister, maybe he should have a discussion with the Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states that in 2002 the department paid over $5.5 million to the operator of the Apollo and had no means of ensuring that all the services paid for were provided.

Mr. Speaker, how does the minister justify passing out $5.5 million without bothering to check, and cannot check, whether or not the Province received the services it paid for?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, the service on the Strait of Bell Isle- and I wish that the hon. member would check with the people in Labrador. The money that was spent on that particular ferry service was the best money that was ever spent in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Our statistics are way up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: It is the best service that was ever provided to the people of Labrador and this government is proud to be part of that ferry service to the people of Labrador.

The hon. member attended the transportation Combined Councils meeting in Labrador. Do you know what they did? The two or three members of the Opposition who were down there would not even stay for the meeting, to hear about the transportation concerns of Labrador. They walked away from the meeting, because our record on transportation in Labrador is the best since Confederation, and I am proud to be the minister, to be a part of it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, final supplementary.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, again the minister does not answer the question and misses the point completely.

Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18-

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18,000 on May 12, 2000 to this contractor for services not received?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18,000 on May 12, 2000 to this contractor for services not received, and how much of this $5.5 million did government pay out that they never got the services for? You do not have any way of finding it out.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: There was one day in May when the boat did not operate. As part of the contract, the contractor wasn't to be paid. The money was refunded.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is not going to tolerate this kind of interruption during Question Period. If members do not come to their senses, the Chair will leave this Chamber and recess it until members can proceed in an orderly fashion with the Question Period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today, Mr. Speaker, is for the Premier, concerning an urgent problem affecting people in Labrador.

I want to say to the Premier, this morning I spent two or three hours at the airport with constituents from Labrador West and some passengers from Goose Bay area, as well, who were booked on the Air Nova flight at 10:15 to fly to Labrador. The flight was cancelled and passengers were told that they would not be able to be re-booked until December 24; a ridiculous situation, I would suggest, that would not happen anywhere else in this country where people would be cancelled a flight and booked six days later, on Christmas Eve.

Does the Premier agree that this is a deplorable situation and will he use his office, as Premier, to ensure that Air Nova puts on an extra section to Wabush and Goose Bay to have the passengers go home in a timely fashion rather than be stranded, waiting for a flight for six days?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: As most hon. members know, I have been Chair of the Air Policy Committee set up primarily as a result of actions by Air Canada to reduce its services here in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The incident described by the hon. member does not surprise me. It shocks me, Mr. Speaker, to know that a national company, like Air Canada, will, again, demonstrate its insensitivity and its callous action towards the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. I can assure the hon. member that we will do everything in our power to see that this situation is redressed, in the manner that he has described, as quickly as possible.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say to the minister, that these reservations the people were supposed to traveling on today have been booked weeks and months in advance. I am going back to the airport, as soon as Question Period is over, to be with them and try to make arrangements. I would ask the minister, in his position as chair of the Cabinet committee on transportation, will he not go to the airport as well and get to the highest officials possible and insist that they correct this situation immediately?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: I tell the hon. member, I am not sure that I can accommodate that request, in view of the business that follows after the House, but if it can be done, if there is some arrangement that we could make, I certainly have no objection in accompanying the hon. member and doing everything we can, as a government, to help resolve this situation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to raise a point of order as a result of Question Period. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has, for two days, following now, been asking questions related to a specific portfolio, but addressing the questions to the Premier. That, in itself, is not out of order, but it is the convoluted approach by the Leader of the Opposition to give a thwarted perception that the Premier is not answering the questions that he is asking.

Mr. Speaker, I have been in this House a long time, and generally when a member - and many times a member will address the question to the Premier, as did the previous member, speaking on behalf of his constituents from Labrador, addressed the Premier, but I answered the question, and in his next question he addressed me, knowing that I was the one answering the questions. That is normally the way it is done in the House. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, as I have said - to try and create a false perception that he is addressing questions to the Premier and he is not responding.

Mr. Speaker, we have a team approach on this side, and when questions are addressed they are answered by the appropriate minister. Yesterday, the questions were to the Department of Justice, and that is who answered the questions. Today, the questions asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition related to environment, and that is who answered the questions.

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition actually made reference to it, that he was asking the Premier the questions and he was not answering, which is the Premier's right.

Mr. Speaker, I quote for your information, page 123 of Beauchesne, §418: The Speaker has stated, "Hon. Members may not realize it but questions are actually put to the Government. The Government decides who will answer."

The rules are pretty simple in this House. You do not have to take a course in legal matters to be able to ask questions in this House. If we did, many of us would not be able to ask the questions. They are simple, straightforward rules, and I ask the Leader of the Opposition to get familiar with them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The member says he has been around a long time. I have been here ten years. The fact of the matter is, Question Period is designed so that the Leader of the Opposition or any other member decides who they are going to ask. I recall, for example, Mr. Speaker, when the Member for Bonavista South was the critic for social services, when the Government House Leader was in social services, when he introduced the common term, welfare cops. He asked a question. When the member rose, the then Premier said: I have this Tom, and sat him down.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I also remember, I also recall, in my ten years here - and I am sure the Government House Leader would too - when the Premier was the Minister of Mines and Energy, and I was the Leader of the Opposition asking him questions, when then Premier Brian Tobin said: Roger, I have this.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, this is a useless point of order. The Leader of the Opposition has every right to ask anybody a question, and you have every right to answer who you may wish to answer, but your point of order is absolutely no point of order whatsoever, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I not so sure that it is a point of order that the hon. member has raised. I think he is just clarifying what the practice has been in this House. In other jurisdictions as well, members of the Opposition may direct questions to government but it is entirely up to the government who may answer that question. Members, if they direct questions, must direct them to ministers who are responsible for a given portfolio and cannot expect members of a different portfolio to respond to questions of a nature that is not directed to the particular ministry that they are responsible for.

I think what the hon. member has done has clarified that point, but really it is not a point of order. It is a point of clarifying what the procedure has been.

Orders of the Day

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: It being Wednesday, it is Private Members' Day.

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I think, just for the record, I will deal with the motion at hand today, it being Private Members' Day. Of course, it concerns the ferry service that Marine Atlantic provides into this Province. The most important part of the resolution says:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House of Assembly calls on the Federal Government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality and affordable ferry service to this Province.

Mr. Speaker, the biggest regret today is the fact that someone actually has to stand in this Legislature to discuss the increases in ferry rates coming into Newfoundland and Labrador. It is regretful that someone has to stand here, once again, and try to explain to Ottawa that the link between Port aux Basques and North Sidney, and indeed between Argentia and North Sidney, happens to be our Trans-Canada Highway.

It is regretful that Ottawa cannot seem to understand that, by increasing the rates for passengers to and from this Province, it is a deterrent to increasing the tourism industry in this Province and indeed the well-being of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have seen an industry that grew from the 1980s, under the direction of some very good people in those days, an industry that was in the middle of $200 million a year. We saw it grow between 1982-1983 into 1994 to a $400 million industry. Today, that industry is burgeoning upon $900 million a year, and yet Ottawa has decided one more time to take a few more pennies, a few more dollars, out of every man, woman and child who wishes to come to see our Province.

The sad part about it is that Ottawa refuses to get it. They refuse to get it right. They refuse to listen to the needs of the industry - industries such as Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, who have been waging this fight with Marine Atlantic and Ottawa for twenty years or more. They refuse to listen to the Truckers Association, people like Gerry Dowden, people like Greer Hunt, who have been fighting for the last ten years to bring the rates to a reasonable level so as to provide service not only to Newfoundland and Labrador but provide the people of this Province with lower prices on commodities. They refuse to get it right.

I can tell you that in 1993, when I was minister, I attempted to take the federal government to court. I was prepared to take them to court and asked the Department of Justice at the time, could it be possible? They said to me: Well, it might be possible, but it would be a journey that we probably would not win.

Rather than look at the wrath that may have been thrown upon the Province at that point in time, we decided to pursue a different route, and the route at that time was negotiation.

The sad part about the efforts that are taking place today in terms of wanting to increase the rates to offset the subsidy has no bearing on the individuals who are today running Marine Atlantic. I have to give - and I believe anyone in Newfoundland and Labrador would give - full marks to Sid Hynes and his team. They have taken great responsibility in terms of trying to turn around the service of that industry, to streamlining the actual runs that take place between the Island and North Sydney to meet the needs of the traveller, not the needs of the individuals who are working in the ferry service. They have worked hard to bring a quality of service to a standard that is acceptable to the people of this Province, and indeed to the tourists who come to this Province. My hat is tipped to them. My congratulations are extended to them, but they are not the ones who decide what the subsidy will be each year. That decision is being made in Ottawa. That decision is being made today by Collenette who, for some reason or another, believes that we are in some part, a backward part, maybe even a Third World, in his mind. Maybe he believes that we are out there somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, a safe haven, as he said one time, for planes to come to, for planes to land, so they would not affect people in Central Ontario, a place during September 11, where it was safer to have a plane blow up in Newfoundland than it was at Toronto Pearson Airport. This is the same man who said, look after the individuals when they arrive, and some year-and-a-half later has still refused to pay the $2 million bill that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians put up to look after the tens of thousands of people who came here.

Now, one more time, it is reach into the pockets, not just of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, but reach into the pockets of people who have heard about this Province, who have heard about the goodwill that this Province has shown to those many thousands who were here during the September 11 crisis. We have received millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of free promotion, of free advertising, at major networks around the world explaining what Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were willing to do at that time. Their response to us is: One more time, jack it to them, give it to them, increase the rates, make it hurt a little more, make sure that someone will stay in Nova Scotia rather than come here. That is just not acceptable anymore.

It was only a few years ago that this same Marine Atlantic gave back some $15 million or $18 million of subsidy that they did not require, gave it back rather than allowing it to stay there to meet a rainy day need as this is.

MR. MANNING: You need Paul Martin to (inaudible).

MR. WALSH: I guess what I have to do is probably try to answer a question being asked of me by the member for St. Mary's, who comes from the tourism industry, but, based on the comments being made, would probably rather see the tourism industry suffer than hear me continue my debate. I want him to participate, I want him to support this, and some future government we will deal with, and we may get a much better response from some future government than we are today. As a matter of fact -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

MR. WALSH: As a matter of fact, I have a strong degree of confidence that a future leader of a federal government will be much kinder to this Province, will be much more generous to this Province, will be willing to listen and meet the needs of this Province, much more than they are being met now.

Where do we do from here? Are we asking for anything different than being given to other parts of Canada? No, we are not. Are we asking for anything that other provinces are expecting that is better than what we are getting? No. Look at Prince Edward Island. That is the closest and easiest example for us to deal with. We, in Newfoundland and Labrador, as a people, have always said that, one, we are generous and, two, we want to be treated as equal. Prince Edward Island, since the fixed link went in, are guaranteed a $42 million a year subsidy, guaranteed year after year after year for the next thirty-five years, fixed at $42 million. What are they looking for here? What are they offering Newfoundland and Labrador? Thirty-three million dollars.

They are saying to Marine Atlantic officials, the capable people who are there: Live within your budget. In order to live within the budget, meet the needs, meet the growing transportation needs, meet the needs of the increasing amount of passengers who are coming here, do it within budget, and, if you cannot, find the money where you can. They are finding the money the only way they can, by increasing rates.

I believe it is time for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and all members of this hon. House, to stand together and to say to Ottawa, and, in particular, the minister responsible: Treat us as equals, treat us as the Canadians that we are, treat us as a proud people and not have us, year after year, say to you in Ottawa, what about us? Be fair, be generous, in your equality in dealings with provinces.

Mr. Speaker, there are a number of my colleagues who want to participate in this debate this afternoon. All I ask for, and all I request of Ottawa, treat us as equals. Stop, freeze, hold, prevent the rates that you are asking for going in place on January 1. Put a hold on them until, if need be, a delegation from this House has to meet with the federal minister to try to make him understand how important this is to Newfoundland and Labrador, how important it is to our tourism industry, whether it is on the Northern Peninsula, whether it is down around Cape St. Mary's, whether it is here on the Avalon and, indeed, whether it is in Labrador. Because more and more tourists are coming to this Province and they are turning left at Deer Lake, finding their way to the Northern Peninsula, finding their way across the Gulf, going up to Red Bay, and, I guess, because of the new highways even going further into Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, throughout this afternoon I expect to hear ideas and concepts as to how we can convince the people in Ottawa, whether they are cousins of mine or not, how do we convince those in Ottawa to participate with this Province in achieving our goals and our aspirations as to how we can go forward. Find a way, in the many millions of dollars that Ottawa has at its disposal, to hold the rates at what they are, and, if need be, to see those rates reduced? That is what I ask of this House of Assembly this afternoon with this resolution and that is what I ask from those who will participate in the debate.

Mr. Speaker, I will have an opportunity to close the debate in an hour or two, but in the meantime, I wish to hear from my colleagues on the other side, and indeed, those from this side of the Legislature, on this very important issue that we need to deal with now as the rates are scheduled to go in place on January 1.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER (Ms Hodder): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to stand in my place today and speak to this Private Member's Resolution put in by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. It is a fairly timely one, I might add, fairly short, concise and to the point. I think, on this side of the House, we will certainly be supporting it. How couldn't you? It is motherhood. With respect to that, I think, Madam Speaker, that we need to understand what is going on in this Province today with respect to the Gulf ferry system. To do that, let's look at what was promised to us with respect to the Terms of Union in 1949 when we joined Canada. It is quite clear, that this could be extended even further than to talk about the cuts, which I will address in a minute, with respect to the increases and how we would not like them to be enforced.

I would like to read a section here with respect to the terms of union. It says this, "Canada will maintain in accordance with the traffic offering a freight and passenger steamship service between North Sidney and Port aux Basques, which, on completion of a motor highway between Corner Brook and Port aux Basques, will include suitable provisions for the carriage of motor vehicles." If you read that and look at the intent, at the point in time when this was put in place, and compare it to today, one could argue, Madam Speaker, that we should not even be paying for the service on the ferry. I mean, it is an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway and it should be the responsibility of Canada and Ottawa to be paying that. It is clearly in this.

Now, the member, when he was up, made the case that the present administration of Marine Atlantic has brought it to an acceptable level. I disagree with that. There have been some improvements, Madam Speaker. It was only yesterday, actually, I got a call from a trucker who had been on the other side wanting to get to Newfoundland. He had been there, I think, for twenty-four hours and they were not going to allow him to get on. They were putting the cars on first. Anyway, they eventually allowed nine trucks on that boat. So, it is not supplying the full service that is required by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is not giving the service to the truckers, which is what we need for the industry, because it impacts. As we often said before, in this House of Assembly, and most members would agree, the Gulf ferry system exists, Marine Atlantic exists, because of Newfoundland and Labrador, but the Island of Newfoundland.

There are so many things that we can talk about, I suppose, when we come to the pros and the cons of Marine Atlantic and the service that it provides, but now, just so the people would know - and I am not sure if everyone out there knows. I do not think the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island actually said what the increases are. They are this: A single passenger fare ride is $1.50 to $25, a passenger vehicle ticket goes up $3 to $72.75, and the tractor trailer rate increases $11.50 to $297.50. Now, Madam Speaker, these rates have to be passed on to the consumer. It impacts our tourism industry. It impacts everything that we buy that is trucked onto this Island. Fuel, food, all the different types of merchandise that are sold in our stores, these rates apply to and it impacts upon what we pay.

Now, just to go back to a short while ago, Madam Speaker, there were increases less than a year ago made for this same service. If I can find them here, I will tell you what they were. In January, 2002, the rates went up, Madam Speaker, they went up from $1.50 to $23.50. Now that $23.50 has gone to $25 and it became effective, as I said, February 1 of this year, less than a year ago. The one way cost for a fourteen meter transport truck was $268 and now that has gone up to $297.50. They are continually going up and it has to stop. It is shameful, is basically what it is. It is shameful!

Now, just this past month, back in November, November 5, 2002, they had hearings in Port aux Basque, the Royal Commission on the relationship between Ottawa and Newfoundland. Some of the concerns that were brought up at that meeting were as follows: One of the major concerns at that meeting was that high ferry rates hinder business developments and tourism; what we have been saying in this House of Assembly, what members on that side of the House have been saying in this House of Assembly, for years now. Ottawa, as the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island said, they are not listening. They do not get the point.

Again, I want to go back to the fact that when we joined Canada in 1949, that Gulf ferry system was in the Terms of Union. Why are we even paying? We can make that argument: Why are we even paying for it? That is what Ottawa is there for. That was one of the terms when we joined Confederation. That is one of the reasons why, and it was a big price to pay. They have taken our fishery and used it all over the world for bargaining chips for different countries. We have lost all of our resources, basically. Now, over the past few years, they are cutting back on the Canadian Health and Social Transfer payments from Ottawa to Newfoundland, and they have a problem with us looking for a proper Trans-Canada Highway system.

As the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs says - and equalization, we have been cut back on that. They changed from a needs basis to a per capita basis. We have to fight almost daily, monthly, for our basic rights for a proper transportation system to link us with the other part of Canada - a part of a Canada, a country, that we are supposed to be a part of. Sometimes you have to wonder.

Another point that was brought up at the meeting on November 5 was, the corporation's head office is not in Port aux Basques. Again, we have made issue in this House of Assembly many times that the head office should be in Newfoundland. As we said, Marine Atlantic exists because of Newfoundland. Only recently we saw - and I complimented the Marine Atlantic board at the time - only a couple of weeks ago we saw, I think, four more Newfoundlanders appointed to the board. It was a good decision, and I applaud them for that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Five.

MR. J. BYRNE: Five. I stand corrected - five more.

I will not be satisfied, and I am sure members on that side of the House will not be satisfied, and on this side, until we have the majority of the board of directors being from Newfoundland, because they understand Newfoundland. They have Newfoundland's best interests at heart; rightly so, and so they should. That is why it exists.

The other thing I note here, Madam Speaker, is that P.E.I. has ten times the subsidy. Prince Edward Island, with a population of 100,000, has ten times the subsidy that Newfoundland has with respect to transportation in Newfoundland and Labrador. That in itself is shameful. What does that say to us? Is it that they do not care? We are second-class citizens here in Newfoundland and Labrador? Is that what Ottawa is saying to us? Is that what Marine Atlantic is saying to us? That is a question that needs to be answered.

Again, as I said, I will not be satisfied until the majority of the Board of Directors of Marine Atlantic are from Newfoundland and have Newfoundland's best interests at heart.

I have notes here. Another individual brought up: Imagine, if you would, for one second, that Quebec was an island. Do you think for one second that there would be any member of the board of directors from Ontario? That is a very good point to make, Madam Speaker.

We could go on and on on this issue. I have a few more points to make. The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, who introduced this, when he was on his feet, talked about the Truckers Association and that he believes the level of service is acceptable. I do not believe that, personally, by any stretch of the imagination.

Here is something - another individual. On Deck and Below, that was a report that was presented and done by the government, I think, and paid for by the government, a few years ago. There were some good recommendations in it, some good comments.

MR. WALSH: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Conception Bay East says page 6 does a comparison between the two provinces, but the point that I had when I went through this, the former Minister of Tourism for this Administration, on page 1 of 16, says - and this is the hon. Chuck Furey at the time, and I am going to read this because it is an important point to make - "The gulf ferry service is our connection to North America. It exists to serve the people of Newfoundland and Labrador." - this is very important - "It is the first impression travellers receive when they come to the Province. Presenters, and those who sent comments to the forum, are all clients of Marine Atlantic who have eloquently put forth issues ranging from the pressing lack of capacity to the need for quality service. People from all regions of the province, representing all sectors of the economy, have echoed that this is not a 21st century service. We must ensure that it is - if Newfoundland and Labrador is to compete and thrive in the new millennium." Again, if Newfoundland and Labrador is to compete and thrive in the new millennium, it has to be a twenty-first century service, and it is not.

That is what we have been saying earlier, that there are many, many issues in the report, On Deck and Below, that talk about the service, that talk about the capacity, that talk about various other issues, and we have to get serious in this Province.

The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island made a good point in that we have to find a way to get it across to Ottawa, to the decision makers in Ottawa - now I am not sure, sometimes, if it is the politicians who are the problem. I am not quite sure. Sometimes they say that the higher up civil servants control them, make the points, make the issues, and the ministers will just take the advice and go with it. If that is the case, if it is not the politicians, then we need to get some new people elected in Ottawa who will understand Newfoundland for what it is and give us a proper service, a twenty-first century service.

Again, I wanted to mention the extra costs. When these costs were put onto the truckers, Madam Speaker, they are passed on to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. As I said, if we buy some clothes, if we buy some food, our vehicles, everything that is purchased in the Province, these extra costs are put on to the merchandise or the equipment or whatever we buy in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Tourism: the Minister of Tourism is constantly saying our tourism numbers are up. Well, you know, Madam Speaker, good, great. I hope they continue, but if the rates to get on this Island, the ferry service rates, continue to rise, as they have in most recent years, well, that can put a damper on that.

Madam Speaker, as I said before, there are so many issues here to speak on, and I know members on both sides of the House want to speak to this private members' resolution. There is one point here, if I can find it, which is an important point to make if I could find my notes here. I cannot seem to locate it, but I remember reading it earlier, Madam Speaker. If need be, if I can get up later on, I may have to get up and make that further statement with respect to this resolution before the House of Assembly today.

One of my concerns with this, of course, is the fact that we oftentimes put private member resolutions before the House and that is the end of it. There is no more to it than that. We are here and we will sit down at 4:00 p.m. or 5:00 p.m., or whatever the case may be, and that is basically the end of it. They never hear anything more about it. Maybe we can take this private member's resolution and, probably with the complete approval of the House of Assembly, send it to the Minister of Transport in Ottawa, put some pressure on them and get our provincial MPs, both sides, to put some pressure on Ottawa not only to rescind those rate increases but maybe start decreasing the rates over a number of years, and go back to the real intention of the Terms of Union that we joined in 1949, that the Gulf ferry system was supposed to be a continuation of the Trans-Canada Highway, and eventually we will be treated as equal citizens in this country. We should not have to pay anything for that service. Maybe that day will come, and hopefully we will live to see it in this House of Assembly.

With that, Madam Speaker, I will take my seat and give other members a chance to speak to this resolution.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased to rise to offer my support to this private member's bill today and to speak primarily from a tourism perspective. I want to thank the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island for bringing this matter of considerable importance to our Province to the floor of the House in this manner.

Madam Speaker, the timing - if you were to look at the timing for something like this - the timing absolutely could not be worse for Marine Atlantic to implement a fare increase. We are all aware, Madam Speaker, that there are a couple of factors that really affect tourism in our Province, and obviously one of those is the actual cost for travel to the Province. The other, of course, is the quality of the service that people receive in their travel to the Province as well.

For a statement to come out in the past week, as it has, that Marine Atlantic is going to be increasing its fare structure and implementing a policy of reduced marketing on non-operational services, is one that causes me very great concern.

Madam Speaker, we have gone through a period where we have seen the air capacity to our Province reduced. We have had significant announcements in the past six months and a year which have resulted in reduced air seat passenger capacity to Newfoundland and Labrador. Again, if people have difficulty in actually getting to the Province, it has to affect our tourism numbers, but what we have seen over the past summer is that, while the air passenger travel to the Province has decreased by approximately 7 per cent, we have seen an increase in what the industry calls the rubber tire traffic. We have seen an increase in car travel to this Province, and Marine Atlantic itself is reporting an increase of 13 per cent up to the end of September.

Madam Speaker, we do recognize that Newfoundland and Labrador has become such an attractive destination to so many people that they are willing to come to the Province, whether it means coming on all of the available air passenger seats that are here, or whether it means coming across on the ferry. I have to say that in my discussions and chats with many of the tourists who were in our Province this summer they were not unhappy with the ferry service. I think, to some extent, they kind of built it into the experience. When they were prepared for it they were willing to say that, okay, the ferry from North Sydney to Port aux Basques is going to be part of their vacation, but it has to be a good quality service in order for them to hold this opinion.

Madam Speaker, we rely on this car and passenger traffic as a significant part of our tourism industry. We know, and we have just released a marketing study which confirms, that we have to focus on the Maritimes, for example, as one of our key markets. When you put the Maritimes together with Ontario they make up almost 80 per cent of the tourism market that we have in the Province. Many people who come from the Maritimes, and from Ontario, are certainly going to want to be able to come to the Province through Marine Atlantic, by taking the ferry service. At a time when we are focusing our efforts and trying to do the best possible job of marketing to increase the number of tourists who are coming to our Province, we are seeing, at the same time now, the potential for the actual costs of traveling to our Province to increase. Madam Speaker, this is very unfortunate and we know that is going to have a negative impact on our tourism industry.

Tourism has grown very, very steadily in our Province. Over the past five years, we have seen this industry come and become one that contributes $300 million to our economy from non-resident visitors. These are from the people who have to take Marine Atlantic or the people who have to fly here. These are non-resident visitors. That is an increase of 22 per cent since 1998. It is not an insignificant part of our economic development in this Province and it is certainly not an insignificant part of the employment, particularly the seasonal summer employment, in our Province; although I would have to say to you, that more and more we are seeing an all seasonal industry. Certainly, that is something that we have to focus on, to try and increase and improve.

Madam Speaker, it is very important to all of the tourism operators, it is very important to all of the people who make their livelihood from tourism, that tourists are able to access our Province in an affordable manner and in one that provides them with a quality experience.

The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island spoke very eloquently about the responsibility of the federal government and the need for the federal government to be involved with this service in a much different way from the way it is today. Because, Madam Speaker, as I understand it, Marine Atlantic has reported that it receives only 20 per cent of its operating revenue in the form of federal government subsidy. It must rely on all of the rest of its operational expenses and revenue, the whole 80 per cent, from its fares.

Madam Speaker, when you are faced with a situation where Marine Atlantic is saying to the public of Newfoundland and Labrador, that because of the increase in usage, because there are more and more people who want to use Marine Atlantic, they are going to have to increase their fares to respond to it, this just does not seem to make sense to us. At that rate, if tourism becomes a huge success we are going to price ourselves out of business altogether. It will become so expensive to travel here, if the fares have to continue to rise because of increased passenger traffic to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, that it will ultimately defeat itself and serve the opposite's end. Nobody, including Marine Atlantic, I am sure, wants to see that kind of thing happen.

We know that a third vessel was required this year and, yes, there is extra expense that is added with a third vessel, but the Government of Canada has to realize that this is an essential link for us to the rest of our country, and that, yes, as part of the Terms of Union there is an obligation for the federal government to provide for an accessible service to both residents and visitors. While the Terms of Union do not set a rate, it is implicit that the rate that will be charged should be affordable in order to keep this service accessible.

Madam Speaker, I feel very strongly that we have to take a very strong position, as members of this House on all sides of this House, that we need to get a strong message to the federal government, that they have to become more engaged in this issue and they have to contribute more to the costs of the service of Marine Atlantic. We know that we have to have a good quality service. We know that things like inflation will continue to effect it. Madam Speaker, I know and I understand. I took that ferry myself this summer, when I was going over to Nova Scotia. I found that the employees on the service where trying to do a very good job, but there comes a time when they have to have the resources in order to be able to provide the level of service that we all expect.

Madam Speaker, I support the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. I applaud his efforts to focus this matter to the federal government. I certainly will be pleased to provide any level of support that I can to the member and to other members of government, to my colleague, the Minister of Transportation, to address this to the federal government. I would like to see, yes, that this fare increase would be cancelled, and more so, if at all possible, that we would see a phased-in reduction in these fares, so that at some point in the future, Madam Speaker, we can arrive at a point where the cost to travel to our Province is much more in line with the costs to travel to other parts of this country.

Thank you, very much, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I stand today to say a few words to this Private Member's Resolution, as brought forward by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. I say to the member, it is a Private Member's resolution that he will, certainly, get no objection to from people on this side. It is a motherhood issue. It talks about the cost of transportation, the cost of the Marine Atlantic Ferry Service, to this Province. It talks about the impact on the economy of this Province and calls on the federal government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality affordable service to this Province.

Madam Speaker, first impressions are lasting impressions, I say to members opposite. When we talk about the marine service, we talk about Marine Atlantic, the service that is being provided to this Province is not only about tourism and it is not only about transportation, but it is about the cost of almost every good and every service that is brought into this Province, and it affects everything from automobiles to shoelaces, I say to members opposite. If any of us, and most of us have, I am sure, had occasion to travel by Marine Atlantic, to cross the Gulf, to go and witness the tractor-trailers that we see lined up in the parking lots both in Port aux Basques and in North Sydney, you realize the value and the importance of this particular service. Madam Speaker, there are two ways to get to Newfoundland. You either do it by air or you do it by Marine Atlantic.

I compared the costs when I found out that I was going to speak on this particular resolution today, and as I looked up the costs, I found out where the cost would be and what we would be paying when we use this service after January 1 of this year. Madam Speaker, I understand that the rates are going up by approximately 4 per cent. After January 1, a single passenger traveling from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland or vice versa, the cost will be $25 one way. That is somebody who gets aboard a DRL or takes their own vehicle, parks it on the parking lot, and just walks aboard Marine Atlantic. It will cost you $25 to make that trip.

Madam Speaker, we could take it another way. If you are taking a family vacation and you put your automobile aboard the ferry, the driver goes with that particular automobile and everybody else in it pays $25 as a private passenger, a single passenger rate. Now, if you are going to put your vehicle on Marine Atlantic after January 1, the cost will be $72.75. So, if you are going to return, if you are going up for a holiday and you are going to return - I am talking about the driver and the vehicle only - the cost will be $195.50. Just imagine, $195.50 to pass over or to get transportation over 100 nautical miles of that particular waterway.

Here is the big one; tractor-trailers. A trucker today - many Newfoundlanders today are self-employed, have their own trucks and travel back and forth to the mainland delivering goods and services. Each time that tractor trailer gets aboard Marine Atlantic today, it will cost the trucker $297.50. That is one way. So he is going to go up to Ontario, or he is going to go down to Boston, to pick up a load of goods to bring back here to Newfoundland and Labrador. When he returns, that complete trip is going to cost that driver, passed on to the consumer of goods in this Province, $595, that return trip.

Madam Speaker, you might say: Well, we have an alternative. If you do not want to put your vehicle aboard Marine Atlantic, then you can go out to the airport and hop aboard Air Canada or some other airline to fly up to Toronto, or to fly to New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, and lease a car when you get there. At least you will not have to drive, you will not have to pay for gas, you will not have to pay for the Marine Atlantic charges.

Let me give you an idea of what that will cost, because I am talking about the cost, and the unfairness of the cost, of getting to and from this Province, especially as it relates to people who are visiting here. I think of the tourism industry, an industry that we are trying to build, an industry that we see that is going to bring about some economic activity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation continues to promote this particular industry. It is a good industry. It is an industry worth in excess of $600 million, and it will certainly provide some good opportunities to rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Let's look at the cost of an airline ticket, as well, because that is the only other way to get to this Province. The airlines have a great way of advertising. If they are going to advertise a ticket from here to Toronto, what they do is, they advertise the cost of a one-way ticket. That is the way it is advertised in this particular case. A ticket from St. John's to Toronto, the airline's price, $249. That is one way. The $249 is one way, but that is the way they advertise it, Madam Speaker. So now if we are coming back it is going to cost us another $249. Fair enough, if you are going to go then you have to come back. Let's look at the other charges attached to that particular airline ticket. Nav Canada charge - we are talking about a $249 ticket now, one way, so we are talking about $498 for a return ticket. Return fare: $249. Nav Canada surcharge: $20, on that particular return ticket to Toronto. Fuel surcharge: $30, on that particular ticket to Toronto. Insurance surcharge: $6. Airport improvement fee: $20. Canadian security fee: $22.43. HST and GST: $96.31. Now if you are going to use a travel agent, which most people do today, travel agent service fee: $50. So that particular airline ticket from St. John's to Toronto, that the airline has advertised for $249, when you look at the return fare and when you look at the other fares, the total cost of that airline ticket for somebody travelling return from Toronto to St. John's: $742.74. Madam Speaker, that is what we are faced with here today.

We are looking at Marine Atlantic, that continues to raise the cost of that particular service, and if you look at the airline industry that continues to raise the cost of that particular service, you might say: Well, we will use our points. We will travel back and forth on our points. We can travel anyway in the world, anyway that Air Canada flies, on our point system. But call the airlines and try to book a ticket and try to reserve a seat to use your travel points from St. John's to anywhere else in the world. Just try it and see, number one, how long you have to wait, and, number two, at the end of the day, ask them how many seats are available on a flight from anywhere on the mainland to St. John's. You will find that we come up very, very short on that particular end as well.

Madam Speaker, as I said, this is a good resolution. It is a resolution that everybody in this House will support, brought forward by the Member of Conception Bay East & Bell Island. He asked if we would make recommendations, and he was interested in hearing what other people said. Well, I am interested in hearing what the government has done, what this government has done, in order to maintain a fee which is acceptable to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

The member who brought forward this particular resolution was a former Minister of Tourism. Did the minister ever go to Ottawa and make representation on behalf of Newfoundlanders, to talk about the cost of Marine Atlantic service? Did the present Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation ever make a journey, a pilgrimage, to Ottawa and sit down with the federal minister and put forward Newfoundland's needs, and put forward what the cost is of raising this transportation fee, what it means to tourism here in this Province, and what it means to the purchase of goods and services? Has the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs gone to Ottawa and made representation? The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, has he ever gone to Ottawa and sat down with his federal counterparts, his federal cousins, and talked about the unfairness of travel, the expense and the cost of getting goods and services, and moving people in and out of this Province into other parts of mainland Canada?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) power point presentation.

MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Speaker, I know he made a power point presentation. I say, power point presentations are certainly not meaningful in most cases.

It is something that should be done. While it is meaningful to donate a day in this Legislature to talk about something that is happening in Ottawa, in the nation's capital, and the negative effective it is having on this Province, I am not so sure how meaningful it is, or if David Collenette, the Minister of Transport in the nation's capital, knows, or even is going to be concerned, that we are having this discussion here today.

I say to members opposite, and I say to people opposite, maybe it is about time we started making a few trips to Ottawa, to take forward the concerns and to take forward the negativity that happens here every time we see a hike in transportation rates and how it affects the people of this Province.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that his time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Speaker, I understand that my time is up.

This particular resolution is certainly a good resolution. It needs to be attended to in a much more meaningful way than bringing forward a private member's resolution. The will has to exist with this government, with the Minister of Tourism, with the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, and with the Premier, to take a strong message to their cousins in Ottawa to talk about the unfairness of this rate hike and to talk about the needs of the people here, the cost of commodities here in this Province. We are all a part of this nation known as Canada, and it is about time that we all started being treated as equals.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: (Mercer): The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to say a few words on the resolution before the House, brought forth by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, concerning the ferry service to the mainland of Canada that we have to North Sydney.

The resolution is a good one. I think we all, in this House, support that, that there ought to be opposition expressed to the recently announced fare increases to the travelling public and to the transportation industry in general, based on this ferry service, but also calling on the federal government to provide the additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality and affordable ferry service to this Province.

Mr. Speaker, that link is vital. Obviously we have airlines as a method of transportation, but the travel link by road is vital for this Province. It is vital for the economy of this Province, for the making available of consumer goods by transport, and also, and very importantly, passenger travel for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to be able to access other parts of the country, but also, of course, to allow visitors to our Province for our growing tourist industry.

It is very vital that this link be affordable, be reasonably priced. What we have seen instead, Mr. Speaker, is that the price keeps going up and up and becoming more prohibitive. How many people here know, just from anecdotal experience alone, friends of theirs, people they have met from other parts of the country, who say: I have never actually been to Newfoundland and Labrador. I drove down to the Maritimes there last year, or two years ago, or three years ago, with my family, but no, we never made it over to Newfoundland and Labrador because the cost of getting on the ferry was too expensive. It would cost several hundred dollars for a family to get across and get back again, and they just could not afford to do it. It was not something that they had planned for. It was not an expense they had planned for. The sticker shock when making inquiries as to the availability and price of ferries just was not there. They could not handle the cost and they could not add to their vacation at the last minute.

We have seen that time and time again, people wanting to come to this Province and really feeling they have missed something - and they have, of course - because they have not been able to travel to this Province. They cannot do it because of the cost. That is something that we have to continue to be vigilant about, to continue to pressure the Government of Canada to recognize.

There are hearings going on today, Mr. Speaker, on the issue of what is called, in labour law terms, whether or not the ferry service is an essential service. This resolution is not about that, and I am glad it is not, because that is a different point altogether. I do say, if it is such an essential service that the employer, Marine Atlantic, and the Government of Canada, presumably, who is giving directions, wants to get the Canada Industrial Relations Board to dictate that it is so essential a service that employees ought not to have the right to strike - a proposition I disagree with, by the way - but if it is so essential, if it is considered so essential by Marine Atlantic and by the Government of Canada to proceed along that course, why isn't it, Mr. Speaker, made available in a cheaper way, and even free? If it is so essential, why isn't it free, if it is part of the Trans-Canada, if it is part of the way that we, in this Province, get to other parts of the country, and people get here, particularly to the Island? We do have other access, through the Labrador portion of the Province, with a road, not a very good road as of yet, but a road that exists and there is transportation there. In order to get to the Island part of the Province, the ferry is a vital and essential link. In fact, it is so vital and important that it is included in the Terms of Union between Newfoundland and Labrador and Canada, and it was made so because of the vital importance to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is pretty clear, Mr. Speaker.

The previous speaker talked about some of the specific costs, the actual cost of $25 per person to just be on the ferry for that ninety-mile trip across the Gulf of St. Lawrence. To cover ninety miles of highway, obviously the cost for a passenger would be fairly minimum, Mr. Speaker.

We do support this resolution, it is a very important one, and I think we have to do more than just pass resolutions like this. We had a instance a few years ago. I remember one previous Minister of Tourism referring to the Marine Atlantic service as a constitutional cattle boat, made a big fuss in this House and the big furor in the media, over a period of time talking about this. There was committee of government who tried to do something about it. We need more of that, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we need that today because, although we have seen some response to that - Captain Sid Hynes was appointed to manage the ferry service and has made some operational improvements. He is highly regarded as a sound manager and a straight shooter in terms of how he manages that service, but he is also seeking an increase and there are announced increases for the new year.

There needs to be government action, Mr. Speaker, and not just a resolution to this Assembly, which of course we support, but the people's representatives in this Province have to make a stronger representation to the Government of Canada to ensure that this service is available, is affordable and has sufficient quality that it would be attractive to the traveling public, not only from this Province but also for those who we would hope to visit here.

The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation indicated the importance of the tourism industry to the Province. Well, that industry is growing in value, Mr. Speaker, and it is growing in value because more and more people are recognizing that this is a very fascinating place to visit, it is a unique place to visit and, as the word is getting around, it is a place where more and more people want to come. Mr. Speaker, as long as the barrier of the high cost ferry is there, then we are not going to get the number of tourism dollars that we would like to get.

We notice, Mr. Speaker, very clearly, many people who visit from the United States, from the New England states, who come up by road, traveling around, they end their trip in Nova Scotia, they do not come to Newfoundland, because that psychological and economic barrier is there of the ferry service. Will I be able to get on the ferry boat? What will it cost me to take not only myself but perhaps a trailer? We have so many people traveling now with travel trailers and they charge per foot, of course, to get on the ferry. So, it not simply a high expense for people with transport trucks, Mr. Speaker, transporting goods back and forth across the Gulf, but it is a high expense for people who are traveling around the highways in the summertime with travel trailers and their families. To bring a trailer across the Gulf is very expensive, indeed.

We have to do something about that, Mr. Speaker. Something needs to be done to make sure that people who would like to visit the Province, to spend their money here, to see our tourism attractions, to enjoy our culture and the experiences that they can have here, have an opportunity to do that. We, of course, want them here because we want them to spend their money. We want to develop our economy. We want to make sure that young people in this Province have every opportunity to stay here and live and work here and develop this Province, develop their own communities. In order to do that, vital to that is the accessability of the Province and vital to that is to ensure that this be affordable. It is getting to the point, Mr. Speaker, that so many people are unable to come to this Province, that it is an economic detriment to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and calls for the Government of Canada to bring forth a greater subsidy so that this can be comparable, at least, to the cost of traveling by road, comparable to the cost that it would take to travel over a 100 or 150 kilometres of road. That is what we are talking about, when people can travel to other parts of the country.

Even the very expensive PEI bridge, the Confederation Bridge, I think the return trip on that for a vehicle is probably in the order of - the one way trip is probably in the order of $18 to $20 for a $1 billion bridge that was built a few years ago. We surely can expect that traveling to this Province should be no more expensive than that, when we are traveling from one province to another by a link of that nature.

I would support this resolution, Mr. Speaker, and ask that all hon. members support it, but I also ask that the government consider reviving its committee on the ferry service so that we can all, all sides of the House, participate in what the Member for Bonavista South suggested, that we have more representation from this House to go to Ottawa to ensure that the seriousness of this issue is brought to the attention of the federal minister, brought to the attention of other parties in the House of Commons, so that we get the support that we need when we are looking for better ferry service and a more reasonable price for ferry service to Newfoundland and Labrador through Marine Atlantic.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to stand and make a few comments on the Private Member's Resolution put forward by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. It is, certainly, something very timely in relation to the increases that were recently announced by Marine Atlantic. As previous speakers have mentioned, and we have heard over the past number of years, the existence of Marine Atlantic in today's world, in Canada today, is because of the Island of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker. With the bridge now going to Prince Edward Island, we are really the only connection that needs Marine Atlantic, and I think it is imperative that we try our best, in any way here in the House, to get the message across to the people in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, that it is important that we treat the Port aux Basques to North Sydney run and the North Sydney run to Argentia, which is a part of my district, as parts of our Trans-Canada. Certainly, any increases in travel rates are a deterrent to tourism development in our Province, I believe, Mr. Speaker, and I think that it needs to be highly discussed here in this House and certainly brought forward wherever we can. I certainly agree with others who have said that presentations should be made to Ottawa, if that means that a delegation from the House, a delegation of MHAs, to travel to Ottawa or whatever the case may be, to keep pushing this forward.

What concerns me the most, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that this is not a new topic. This is not something that has come to the floor of the House of Assembly today for the first time. It is not something that has evolved in Newfoundland and Labrador for the first time today. This has been an ongoing topic for many, many years now. It seems like, instead of listening to what we are saying down here, instead of listening to the suggestions and the ideas that we are putting forward on both sides of the House, that the people in Ottawa decided they are not going to listen to us and they are going to do their own thing.

We go back a few years ago, when the then Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, Chuck Furey, traveled throughout the Province and presented a report, On Deck and Below, which certainly involved a number of recommendations to try to improve the system, to try to improve the ferry system to this Province. My question today is: After so many years, Mr. Speaker, how many of the recommendations in the On Deck and Below report have been followed, have been taken care of and approved and put together to improve the system that we have in relation to the ferry system? Very few of them have even been looked at.

This was a big issue at that time. This was a big issue in my district of Placentia & St. Mary's because of the fact that Argentia is there. While it is only a summer operation, it is a major, major part of the economic activity in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's and, indeed, the whole Avalon area. To have two points of entry in the Province, one in Port aux Basques and one in Argentia, is an opportunity, I would think, to create a tourism marketing plan that would take the situation where you would come in in one area and go out in another. I think we had some incentives put in place by Marine Atlantic last year, or something to that effect, to try to do that, where they allowed you to go back at half cost. You would come in through one route and go back on half cost through another route.

When those meetings were held for the On Deck and Below report - there were five hearings held in the Province, Mr. Speaker; in Channel-Port aux Basques, Corner Brook, Grand Falls-Windsor, Placentia, and St. John's, and the largest meeting was in Placentia. The largest amount of people to turn out in any of those meetings was in Placentia, around 350 people, because it is a very important issue in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's. It is very important for the tourism development, people who are out there involved in tourism. It is a very important topic. I think it is time that we came up with some conclusion here, as Members of the House of Assembly, to carry our message to Ottawa, whether it is David Collenette, whether it is Jean Chrétien, or whoever the case may be, to get somebody to listen to what we are saying here. It gets frustrating for us, as members of the House, Mr. Speaker, to be constantly asking the same thing of Ottawa, and to be putting forward the same concerns, time and time again, in relation to the ferry system in the Province. It seems like it is falling on deaf ears.

I have to ask myself, and I am sure other members have asked, if we were in some other part of Canada that had a population base larger than we have in this Province, or if we had more numbers of MPs sitting in the House of Commons, or if we had more power in relation to our representatives at that level, would we be in the position today where we are here basically asking for the right to be part of Canada, to be part of this Confederation, and to be part of this country?

We spend millions of dollars in the Province on marketing Newfoundland and Labrador, as the Minister of Tourism touched on earlier. You know, it is a place in the world that many people have not even had the opportunity to see yet, and one of the greatest deterrents that they have is the cost of getting here. I have heard that from people from all around the world, Mr. Speaker; the major deterrent is the cost of getting here. You know, we are an island. You have to either come here by plane or come here by boat. We all know the cost of air travel, especially with families who are travelling, gets enormous. Therefore, an opportunity to take their vehicle over here, to travel around the Province and to see this place, the pristine environment that we have in many parts of our Province, the great natural attractions that we have - in my own district, such as Cape St. Mary's, the Ecological Reserve - and we can go on and on right around this Province and talk about what we have here to offer.

The fact is, we can have what we like, but if we cannot get people to come here, if we have a ferry service that is going to be a deterrent for people coming here, well, Mr. Speaker, the millions of dollars that we are spending in some cases may be in vain for the simple reasons that people want to visit Newfoundland and Labrador but, because of the ferry system and the cost of that ferry system....

I think what we should be looking at here as a promotion, if we are supposedly a major part of this Confederation, you know, I think what we should be looking at here is a five-year plan. I can remember when I spoke at the forum in Placentia, and I put forward that exact same idea. We need a five-year plan put in place here, and I think we should be looking at major reductions in the cost of the ferry system, and major promotion, and we need the assistance of the federal government to do that, Mr. Speaker. I think we need to put a five-year plan in place, a major promotion, and a reduction in ferry rates, to draw people here, to get people to come and visit here. We need to give them an incentive to do that.

I think, even though Marine Atlantic stepped up to the plate last year as an incentive that I mentioned earlier, that is not the type of incentive that we need. We need a major incentive to draw people in here. We need to be able to market that incentive, and you cannot do that in a couple of months. That takes time. It takes years to develop that market and to promote what we have here. If we could come up with an incentive from the federal government in relation to Marine Atlantic, I think it would pay off in dividends to us all over the years. I think it is important.

When I look at the infrastructure and dollars that have been put into infrastructure, again I go back to my own District of Placentia & St. Mary's. We have spent millions and millions of dollars over the past number of years developing infrastructure, developing accommodations, developing trail systems, developing places such as Cape St. Mary's, as I mentioned earlier, where we paved the road out there and built a new Interpretation Centre. All these things, Mr. Speaker, are things to attract and accommodate our tourists when they come here.

As I said earlier, if we cannot get them to come here, that is the problem. Therefore, I think that we should be looking at bringing a committee here of the House, of whatever nature it is, to formulate a plan, which would not take very long, I am sure. We have people on both sides of the House who have been involved with the tourism industry for many, many years, and to bring that plan to Ottawa and to say: We want a five-year plan put in place to deal with the concerns that we have here, to develop the industry. I think we can do that.

If we lay aside tourism for a moment and we talk about the movement of goods and services throughout the Province, again, most of this stuff has to come into our Province and we have to ship our fish or whatever product we have to ship out. I would say it is important that we create an atmosphere where these people can operate. Certainly, I think it is time that we looked at the Argentia- North Sydney run a little bit different than what we have in the past number of years.

I call on the provincial government and the federal government to do that. It is time in this Province now that we take that run seriously. We need to have a five-year plan in place for Argentia, also. We have people out there, Mr. Speaker, who are spending an immense amount of dollars in developing tourist accommodations and other parts of the tourism industry. For a few weeks in the summer we get a glut. It is like the codfish used to be years ago. We get a glut in late July and early August, and then we have to try to survive for the other twelve months on that, so I think it is time that we take a serious look at that.

This private member's resolution put forward here today, while the Member for Bonavista South said earlier, it is a motherhood issue, it is an issue that we have been talking about in this Province now for many, many years. I think it is time that we stepped up to another level and make the case a lot more stronger than what we have. Hopefully, through the efforts of everybody in the House, and through the efforts of everybody in the Province, we will have some action taken on this very important issue and that our tourism industry, which is now creating thousands of jobs in this Province and bringing in millions of dollars of revenue in this Province, will be taken seriously by the federal government. It is about time that we took a very serious look at this. Instead of talking any more, I think it is time for action.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I say thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, to begin my closing remarks, I would like to thank all members who participated in the debate this afternoon, and indeed thank each of them for their support. They were from various regions of the Province, and, in doing so from various regions, speaking on behalf of virtually all members, I hope, in the House of Assembly today.

Mr. Speaker, the resolution says it all for us. It calls upon the House of Assembly to oppose the recently announced fare increases to the travelling public and to the transportation industry. It further calls upon the House of Assembly to ask the federal government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality and affordable ferry service to this Province.

Mr. Speaker, that is what the resolution is about. That is what the resolution is asking for. That is what speaker after speaker this afternoon has asked for as well. I ask now, Mr. Speaker, that you put the question to this hon. House, and I trust that we will receive unanimous support.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: It is the pleasure of the House to adopt the resolution?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

It being Wednesday, and the business of the House concluded, this House now stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, at 1:30 p.m.